**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 08 10:59:58 2006
Feb 08 12:16:34 <AchiestDragon> hmm, pci , that would mean a bigger fpga but loose the cpld's and 4 layer pcb so expencive 
Feb 08 12:18:02 <AchiestDragon> mini pci , ok so for 1 most laptops have one for the wifi so its sort of used  
Feb 08 12:20:08 <AchiestDragon> pcmia now may be posible but would mean a bga ,  4 or 6 layer pcb (at least at that size the cost is not going to be mega expencive 
Feb 08 12:21:06 <dyoung-away> Your/Our PC104 solution seems to be good for the immediate need.
Feb 08 12:21:11 <AchiestDragon> but the pcmia housing may be , and it would sort of preclude home assemby 
Feb 08 12:21:16 <dyoung-away> we can rethink PCI later.
Feb 08 12:23:51 <AchiestDragon> if it was not for the fact that it would mean having to use a bga and a 4 to 6 layer pcb , pcmia would be a better choice , as it would allow laptop use and pc use 
Feb 08 12:33:43 <AchiestDragon> https://portal.fciconnect.com/portal/page?_pageid=335,1577673&_dad=portal&_schema=PORTAL&language=EN     < do the pcmia card parts like the conectors /covers etc 
Feb 08 12:36:04 <AchiestDragon> and recon the price saving in a smaller pcb would cover the extra cost of the caseing needed 
Feb 08 12:49:27 <AchiestDragon> pci can be a bit inpractial as with a 2' cable lenth on the jtag cable that is going to need a system box on the bench along with everything else 
Feb 08 12:52:58 <dyoung-away> the fci search breaks my browser.
Feb 08 12:53:05 <dyoung-away> but I'll take your word for it. :-)
Feb 08 13:52:10 <AchiestDragon> if i only put suport for one ram chip , modified the voltage select so that it was programable rather than links , and removed the level translators and have the fpga i/o bank handle that then it would fit on a pcmcia card 
Feb 08 13:56:18 <AchiestDragon> its just that it will require a diferent way for us to initalise the fpga :s
Feb 08 14:12:14 <AchiestDragon> actualy if we dont need a 1.2v logic level option for jtag a pcmcia version my be posible ,  with some buffers , and may be able to get the jtag top speed to 200Mhz but still only 100 for the la
Feb 08 14:15:07 <AchiestDragon> but there may be a better option , if the la functions where droped , and use a couple of large clpd's then it may be posable to impliment it with a 200mhz jtag top speed , in a pcmcia card 
Feb 08 14:15:44 <AchiestDragon> but thats going to need 3 bga devices 
Feb 08 14:17:16 <AchiestDragon> it depends on how many microcels the tjag / ram and pcmiabus i/f  needs 
Feb 08 14:19:11 <AchiestDragon> have to admit i like the idea of a pcmcia jtag debug/tester/programmer
Feb 08 14:36:31 <AchiestDragon> hmm   300mhz max jtag could be possible 
Feb 08 14:39:27 <AchiestDragon> in a lot of ways think it makes better sence than a pc104 version , in that it does not require a pc104 sbc , and can work with 99% of all laptops and all pc's with a pcmcia adaptor 
Feb 08 14:41:48 <AchiestDragon> its the construction requireing bga that will be the biggest problem , so that is going to need it being manfactured as a assembled unit 
Feb 08 14:43:22 <AchiestDragon> but recon that it may fit within the $250 price range 
Feb 08 15:25:09 <ka6sox> interesting
Feb 08 15:26:01 <ka6sox> the connector for the PCMCIA care would be the most difficult challenge
Feb 08 15:26:34 <ka6sox> the Dongle manufacturing might be interesting.
Feb 08 15:28:05 <ka6sox> nothing says that the card can't be longer than the std one (I'e seen some PCMCIA cards that are 2" longer.
Feb 08 15:50:13 <ka6sox> one solution might be to create a card that is wider outside of the slot.
Feb 08 15:50:42 * ka6sox thinks out loud
Feb 08 15:50:50 <AchiestDragon> hmm
Feb 08 15:51:50 <ka6sox> morning
Feb 08 15:51:55 <ka6sox> coffee coming up.
Feb 08 15:52:49 <AchiestDragon> actualy don think that the probem is needing to extend the board 
Feb 08 15:53:22 <ka6sox> imho its connectorization.
Feb 08 15:53:54 <AchiestDragon> there are sutable connectors that can be used for the cable that will fit well into the end of a pcmcia card 
Feb 08 15:55:29 <ka6sox> k
Feb 08 15:55:39 <AchiestDragon> since jtag seems to use 3.3v or 2.5v most of the time with 1.8v beeing rare  do we need  1.2v support 
Feb 08 15:56:23 <ka6sox> the faster procs use lower voltages to get the speed up and keep the power down.
Feb 08 15:57:47 <ka6sox> in the future more and more will be going to 1.8v and even 1.2v because of speed issues.
Feb 08 15:57:51 <AchiestDragon> k,   
Feb 08 15:58:34 <ka6sox> we have been talking about 240mhz and with double edge clocking we might even be able to do 480mb/sec
Feb 08 15:59:05 <AchiestDragon> but even so, and may be better , to mount the buffers on the jtag head , 
Feb 08 15:59:14 <ka6sox> agreed
Feb 08 16:00:22 <AchiestDragon> basicaly make the pcmcmia with a 3.3 or other output (whatever gives the fastest rate , and then the buffers on the head can be set to whatever 
Feb 08 16:00:26 <ka6sox> the PCMCIA spec is for 3.3v intercace.
Feb 08 16:00:36 <ka6sox> ?
Feb 08 16:01:22 <ka6sox> and is that a 33mhz bus?
Feb 08 16:01:27 <AchiestDragon> i need to read the pcmcia spec's after finding that there's 2 
Feb 08 16:01:44 <ka6sox> I know of pcmcia and pccard.
Feb 08 16:01:51 <prpplague> i guess i missed something, what would be the benefit of going through a pcmcia slot?
Feb 08 16:02:14 <AchiestDragon> think its a mini version of the something on the lines of pci
Feb 08 16:02:25 <lennert> if there's one interface that everyone has, it's usb or ethernet, imho
Feb 08 16:02:34 <AchiestDragon> i know theres a 5v and 3.3v 
Feb 08 16:03:14 <ka6sox> the problem with both of those is that we need a Processor in the Pod
Feb 08 16:03:33 <ka6sox> (usb/ethernet)
Feb 08 16:03:38 <ka6sox> and it drives up the cost.
Feb 08 16:03:43 <AchiestDragon> lennert:  true , but you could say pci also , but that exludes laptops , and you can get a pcmcia to pci adaptor for a pc 
Feb 08 16:03:55 <ka6sox> cheaply
Feb 08 16:04:10 <AchiestDragon> and most laptops have a pcmcia
Feb 08 16:04:25 <ka6sox> the problem that the POD helps is getting keeping the cables short.
Feb 08 16:04:27 <lennert> so to use this card on my desktop i have to get a pcmcia adapter
Feb 08 16:05:26 <ka6sox> yes
Feb 08 16:05:43 <ka6sox> ethernet/usb are more ubiquitous.
Feb 08 16:07:01 <ka6sox> the problem with the buffer cards is the HOT plugging.
Feb 08 16:07:09 <AchiestDragon> yes , but the cost penalty for using a ethernet means a local cpu that adds well a ts200 to the cost 
Feb 08 16:07:24 <AchiestDragon> 7200 
Feb 08 16:07:29 <ka6sox> agreed
Feb 08 16:08:23 <AchiestDragon> and although the cost of a pcmcia may be a bit higher it can still be cheaper than the pc104 board and a ts7200
Feb 08 16:08:27 <ka6sox> building a all FPGA solution with ethernet (external) is very costly (a huge chip) and still have to put in a sof core.
Feb 08 16:08:39 <ka6sox> s/sof/soft
Feb 08 16:09:32 <ka6sox> going to push it towards $300 for the system with cables/adaptersl.
Feb 08 16:09:47 <ka6sox> back in a bit
Feb 08 16:11:17 <AchiestDragon> and the main problem with a pcmia cost is the pcb , that would need to be 4 layer , the components used are not going to cost any more than we would currently be using on the pc104 card  
Feb 08 16:12:03 <AchiestDragon> and think that it may be arround the $170 mark , 
Feb 08 16:13:12 <ka6sox> there are a number who will want the pod even at the higher cost.
Feb 08 16:13:27 <ka6sox> for a number of reasons
Feb 08 16:14:02 <ka6sox> familiarity/ethernet/ closer to target/ stand alone capability/ etc
Feb 08 16:14:34 <AchiestDragon> yes
Feb 08 16:15:28 <AchiestDragon>  but guess  a laptop with one fitted could get close to the target 
Feb 08 16:19:13 <AchiestDragon> and if you think about it a laptop is stand alone and self powered and portable 
Feb 08 16:20:11 <prpplague> well if the device is pcmcia based, there is no reason you couldn't insert it into an embedded device and use it from there
Feb 08 16:20:54 <AchiestDragon> the advantage i feel that it could offer is a cross platform driver 
Feb 08 16:21:07 <prpplague> you could just as well take one of these cheap wireless ap's that have a pcmcia slot inside and shove it in
Feb 08 16:23:06 <AchiestDragon> back in 30
Feb 08 16:23:44 <prpplague> AchiestDragon: NO, get back here now! 
Feb 08 16:43:53 <ka6sox> :)
Feb 08 16:44:01 <ka6sox> cya laters guys..off to work!
Feb 08 17:17:14 <prpplague> ~seen beewoolie
Feb 08 17:17:25 <purl> beewoolie <n=beewooli@dsl-142-026.sea.blarg.net> was last seen on IRC in channel #openjtag, 6d 8h 28m 56s ago, saying: 'later.'.
Feb 08 17:17:30 <prpplague> ~seen beewoolie-afk
Feb 08 17:17:32 <purl> beewoolie-afk <n=beewooli@206.124.142.26> was last seen on IRC in channel #openjtag, 4d 10h 45m 27s ago, saying: 'NN'.
Feb 08 18:19:26 <AchiestDragon> back
Feb 08 18:30:41 <AchiestDragon> well i could work out the schematics and pcb for a pcmcia version , then we have two options  ether make one or the other or both but can decide that later 
Feb 08 18:31:55 <AchiestDragon> at least with 2 designs done we will be able to evaluate the costs of each 
Feb 08 18:37:27 <AchiestDragon> think the software is going to be easyer if its all on one machine also 
Feb 08 18:50:55 <AchiestDragon> ka6sox-office:  ping 
Feb 08 20:20:59 <AchiestDragon> ok so theres the 16bit pcmica and the 32bit cardbus version , support for both should be possible , but as pcmica is 5v and card bus 3.3v then the problem is how to get a jumper onto a pcmica card 
Feb 08 20:35:39 <[g2]> anyone know rs232 range ?
Feb 08 20:36:07 <lennert> -12V +12V ?
Feb 08 20:36:16 <lennert> where -12V is a logical '1'
Feb 08 20:36:21 <lennert> and +12V is a logical '0'
Feb 08 20:36:25 <lennert> very confusing at first
Feb 08 20:37:07 <bullet> but +-5v should mostly do, afaik
Feb 08 20:37:29 <[g2]> I see a -5.5v
Feb 08 20:37:31 <lennert> my ts7250 generates +/- 4.8V, even
Feb 08 20:38:15 <[g2]> so if I say 5V is VCC then I might see a signal on the level shifter
Feb 08 20:39:05 <[g2]> or if I just plug the -5.5V and GND right ?
Feb 08 20:43:13 <lennert> EPARSE
Feb 08 20:46:51 <[g2]> Ok cool
Feb 08 20:46:53 <[g2]> thx
Feb 08 20:49:23 <lennert> [g2]: can you please rephrase what you said?
Feb 08 20:57:56 <lennert> [g2]: did i piss you off?
Feb 08 20:58:16 <[g2]> lennert no sorry not at all!
Feb 08 20:58:31 <[g2]> I just got the 1st boot log from  the dsm-g600
Feb 08 20:58:41 <[g2]> RedBoot and kernel log
Feb 08 20:58:50 <[g2]> sorry I was distracted
Feb 08 20:59:00 <lennert> ok, np
Feb 08 20:59:04 <lennert> i was just afraid i pissed you off
Feb 08 20:59:19 <lennert> i'd be glad to answer your question but i didn't get what you meant
Feb 08 20:59:41 <[g2]> lennert you'd have to use my nuts as a trampoline to start annoying me
Feb 08 20:59:48 <lennert> lol
Feb 08 21:00:03 <[g2]> so back the issue
Feb 08 21:00:27 <[g2]> the signals are already level shifted to -5.5V
Feb 08 21:00:41 <[g2]> hence no extra parts are required
Feb 08 21:00:56 <lennert> i guess that's a safe-ish assumption
Feb 08 21:00:57 <[g2]> I just connected the GND pin to GND 5 on the DB-0
Feb 08 21:01:04 <[g2]> s/-0/-9/
Feb 08 21:01:05 <purl> [g2] meant: I just connected the GND pin to GND 5 on the DB-9
Feb 08 21:01:16 <lennert> 2, 3, 5 is all you need
Feb 08 21:01:28 <[g2]> and the TX pin from the board to Pin 2
Feb 08 21:16:23 <AchiestDragon> generating +- 5v for rs232 works , but it depends on distance , the originlal +- 12v was used because the teminal could be up to 250' away from the processor so voltage drop over the cable was a problem
Feb 08 21:18:37 <AchiestDragon> the original full rs232c standard was a nightmare , there was 2 async ports and a syncronus plus 20ma loop modes on the 25way d type 
Feb 08 21:21:29 <AchiestDragon> i worked out one day that you needed a set of 4096 possible cables to ensure that you had the right configureation , thats before you include the baud rate and start stop bit combinations  
Feb 08 21:43:27 <AchiestDragon> hmmm, ok so a tight fit but how does this sound 
Feb 08 21:46:31 <AchiestDragon> both logic analizer and jtag functions as the AzTag pc104 board , on a pcmia / cardbus  , but with a top speed of 200mhz in logic analizer mode , and possabaly 300 in jtag 
Feb 08 21:48:02 <AchiestDragon> down side is the use of 4 devices in bga packages 
Feb 08 21:50:46 <AchiestDragon> although i feel the cableing could cause problems above 170mhz
Feb 08 21:54:39 <[g2]> lennert FYI http://forum.openwrt.org/viewtopic.php?id=4338 is the RedBoot and kernel log at the bottom
Feb 08 21:55:41 <lennert> dsm/
Feb 08 21:55:41 <lennert> ?
Feb 08 21:58:29 <[g2]> D-link box
Feb 08 21:59:07 <[g2]> GigE, 64MB 266 IXP425, 16MB Flash, MiniPCI, IDE 2 USB 2.0 ports $149 for Rev A
Feb 08 21:59:12 <[g2]> Rev B is PPC :(
Feb 08 21:59:34 <lennert> right
Feb 08 21:59:49 * lennert wonders why they changed to ppc
Feb 08 22:00:49 <ChadP> which ppc chip?
Feb 08 22:05:56 <[g2]> Dunno
Feb 08 22:06:07 <[g2]> It's probably on the forum or web 
Feb 08 22:07:16 <[g2-lap]> we should add this page to the wiki http://hri.sourceforge.net/tools/jtag_faq_org.html
Feb 08 22:28:22 <AchiestDragon> http://www.whipy.demon.co.uk/pcmcia.pdf    
Feb 08 22:29:50 <ka6sox-office> [g2-lap], you have the power to add that.
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Feb 09 00:23:39 2006
Feb 09 00:45:24 <dyoung-web> http://nslu2-linux.thestuffguy.com/gallery/dsmg600
Feb 09 00:45:26 <dyoung-web> http://nslu2-linux.thestuffguy.com/gallery/dsmg600revb
Feb 09 00:46:00 <dyoung-web> XPC8241LZP200B
Feb 09 00:47:18 <dyoung-web> I returned the RevA because it was $10 less than the lude, but the lude came with the 160G disk
Feb 09 01:09:07 <ChadP> i worked with the 8241 at my old job
Feb 09 01:09:37 <ChadP> a bit long in the tooth - note the datecode is 0332!
Feb 09 02:41:00 <AchiestDragon> canse why they changed it though , theres a significant component count diference between the two , that will save on manufacturing costs in the long run 
Feb 09 02:41:25 <AchiestDragon>  /canse / can see 
Feb 09 09:51:32 <AchiestDragon> ka6sox: ping
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 09 10:59:56 2006