**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Apr 04 02:59:57 2009
Apr 04 03:27:59 <budfive> anybody know if there's ANY documentation available for the glamo? Specifically the SD card interface
Apr 04 03:28:26 <cjb> budfive: isn't a driver better than specs?
Apr 04 03:28:30 <DocScrutinizer> available: no
Apr 04 03:28:35 <cjb> (at least, a working one..)
Apr 04 03:29:04 <budfive> cjb: that's the problem; the driver's somewhat broken and i'm trying to fix it
Apr 04 03:29:13 <cjb> oh dear :)
Apr 04 03:29:21 <cjb> what's the breakage, out of curiosity?
Apr 04 03:29:32 * raster ponders the idea of sd card hanging off the gfx chip to be somewhat broken...
Apr 04 03:29:36 <cjb> (I spent the last week fixing a different SD driver.)
Apr 04 03:29:58 <budfive> if i do something that loads the SD card (like a fsck, for instance), I get kernel errors
Apr 04 03:30:03 <budfive> then i have to reboot
Apr 04 03:30:14 <cjb> oh
Apr 04 03:30:19 <budfive> http://secretsauce.net:5050/SDerrors
Apr 04 03:30:21 <cjb> what does dmesg look like?
Apr 04 03:30:33 <cjb> maybe a locking/irq problem in the driver
Apr 04 03:30:54 <budfive> happens reliably on the most recent kernel from shr-unstable
Apr 04 03:31:09 <budfive> does not happen on some random 2.6.24 i had lying around. haven't done any more tests yet
Apr 04 03:31:25 <cjb> dmesg?
Apr 04 03:31:35 <budfive> it's in that link i sent
Apr 04 03:31:49 <cjb> oh, sorry
Apr 04 03:31:53 <budfive> is /proc/kmsg different?
Apr 04 03:32:35 <cjb> I think the card status stuff might be part of the SD spec
Apr 04 03:32:49 <budfive> status == 0x120 corresponds to "no response timeout" and "readback data ready"
Apr 04 03:33:00 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: so if it's not happening all the time it might be a hw-problem that's probably hard to "fix" other than reducing sd-clock rate or cranking up drive power
Apr 04 03:33:16 <cjb> DocScrutinizer: could just as easily be software, imho
Apr 04 03:33:25 <DocScrutinizer> or maybe give sd a longer init delay
Apr 04 03:33:42 <cjb> yeah, I was gonna say a longer delay for command response
Apr 04 03:33:43 <budfive> seems to happen every time on the new kernel, after a few minutes. don't know if it happens in the same place or not
Apr 04 03:34:01 <cjb> the amount of time the controller waits for the card before asserting an internal timeout is something that the driver itself can program
Apr 04 03:34:02 <budfive> 2.6.24 works ok, but maybe it's just set up to not stress the card as much
Apr 04 03:34:27 <budfive> does it make sense that it doesn't recover and i have to reboot?
Apr 04 03:34:49 <cjb> the sdhci driver does a full controller reset after too many errors
Apr 04 03:34:53 <cjb> maybe this driver doesn't, but should
Apr 04 03:35:32 <budfive> oooh. I just remembered that a failure i had 2 days or so ago had these symptoms together with corrupted video in the glamo. i was doing something with tangogps at the time. This makes sense as tangogps was doing lots of redrawing with the glamo, and I store my maps on the SD card
Apr 04 03:35:46 <budfive> the screen was being filled with garbage
Apr 04 03:35:53 <budfive> i bet i can reproduce that
Apr 04 03:35:57 <cjb> (you know, it could also be a bad card.)
Apr 04 03:36:07 <cjb> that's interesting
Apr 04 03:36:11 <budfive> cjb: i did some fsck-ing in a card reader and it seems ok
Apr 04 03:36:12 <cjb> suggests a glamo freakout :)
Apr 04 03:36:17 <budfive> cjb: yep
Apr 04 03:36:35 <budfive> cjb: if you have an SD-card and a recent kernel, can you try a fsck?
Apr 04 03:36:52 <budfive> the card is a sandisk 8gb, which is really standard
Apr 04 03:36:58 <cjb> budfive: I'm not really up to date with OM stuff, sorry, haven't updated my phone in a while
Apr 04 03:37:12 <cjb> the experience I have with SD controllers recently is from my dayjob
Apr 04 03:37:34 <cjb> I agree that trying to reproduce is a good idea, though, and also seeing if an older kernel has the same problem
Apr 04 03:37:58 <budfive> cjb: ok. i don't know how recent a kernel is needed to trigger this. This is something i'll play with tonight
Apr 04 03:38:21 <budfive> cjb: playing with tangogps to try to break it...
Apr 04 03:39:57 <budfive> why is it connected to the glamo, anyway? did they run out of i/o lines on the soc?
Apr 04 03:40:19 <raster> yes
Apr 04 03:40:26 <raster> that was a big reason for glamo actually
Apr 04 03:40:32 <raster> i dont know if it was most of the reason
Apr 04 03:40:38 <raster> they were out of sdio lines
Apr 04 03:40:40 <budfive> what? that it had extra i/o?
Apr 04 03:40:43 <raster> to add wifi they needed sdio
Apr 04 03:40:48 <raster> so that means u lost sd card
Apr 04 03:40:52 <raster> glamo "fixed" that
Apr 04 03:41:05 <raster> but offering an sdio interface of its own they could hang the sd card off
Apr 04 03:41:14 <raster> thus you got wifi on the socs's sdio
Apr 04 03:41:19 <raster> and sd off gtlamo's sdio
Apr 04 03:41:25 <raster> and sco -> glamo -> sd was now the path for io
Apr 04 03:41:33 <raster> thus one big reason io si so slow to sd
Apr 04 03:41:37 <raster> its going via glamo
Apr 04 03:41:55 <raster> personalyl i think gta02 would have been out earlier and have so many fewer bugs if it never had glamo
Apr 04 03:42:20 <raster> glamo just made life so complicated
Apr 04 03:42:22 <cjb> but a few important features missing, it sounds like :)
Apr 04 03:42:28 <raster> and as best i can comclucde
Apr 04 03:42:34 <cjb> there are other interfaces for wifi, but I guess SD is the preferred one
Apr 04 03:42:35 <cjb> (USB, SPI)
Apr 04 03:42:45 <raster> the only benefit it brought really was an extra sdio line
Apr 04 03:43:01 <raster> cjb:  yes. but atheros "didnt support spi"
Apr 04 03:43:02 <raster> as the if
Apr 04 03:43:07 <raster> basically they said "you cant do it"
Apr 04 03:43:09 <wpwrak> raster: only sd/mmc, not sdio
Apr 04 03:43:10 <cjb> weird
Apr 04 03:43:21 <raster> (technically you can - but they didnt want you to and washed their hands of it)
Apr 04 03:43:28 <raster> wpwrak:  aah yes - :)
Apr 04 03:43:36 <raster> wpwrak: i tend to just mix them up :)
Apr 04 03:43:41 <cjb> because the driver didn't exist for SPI, or they didn't want to package it that way?
Apr 04 03:43:47 <raster> but yes - just sd+mmc
Apr 04 03:43:50 <wpwrak> raster: it's a sleep issue - with spi, you run into problems like we have with the calypso
Apr 04 03:43:57 <raster> thus you couldnt bput wifi off the glamo
Apr 04 03:44:27 <raster> wpwrak: i didnt know the details
Apr 04 03:44:33 <wpwrak> cjb: i used the module with sdio in spi mode :)
Apr 04 03:44:35 <raster> all i remember is that spi was considered
Apr 04 03:44:41 <raster> atheros said "no"
Apr 04 03:44:59 <cjb> it's true that most cellphones use SDIO these days
Apr 04 03:45:03 <raster> as such glamo in theory brought better memory bandwidth as lcd refresh no longer ran from system ram
Apr 04 03:45:09 <cjb> OLPC should have tried to go with SDIO for its wireless, it's been a nightmare
Apr 04 03:45:15 <raster> thus u didnt pay a mem io price for just refreshing the screen
Apr 04 03:45:42 <cjb> raster: but how much power does the glamo draw, compared to the memory bandwidth?  :)
Apr 04 03:46:04 <raster> but instead glamo put extra load onthe mem bus and thus forced the clockrate of the 2442 to be lowered from 500 to 400 (it could do 500 - but not stabilly) so you actually lost out even more anyway :)
Apr 04 03:46:16 <raster> cjb:  no idea how much power it draws
Apr 04 03:46:21 <raster> i just stand back and look at it
Apr 04 03:46:32 <raster> and the whole thnig would have saved so much pain/time if it were not there
Apr 04 03:46:38 <raster> u wouldnt need a special xserver with "acceleration"
Apr 04 03:46:44 <raster> standard kdrive fb would do just fine
Apr 04 03:46:47 <raster> zero work there
Apr 04 03:46:57 <raster> gfx would have been stable "out of the box"
Apr 04 03:47:05 <raster> suspend/resume simpler as there was no glamo to consider
Apr 04 03:47:06 <raster> etc.
Apr 04 03:47:21 <raster> the problem would have been.. how to attach wifi
Apr 04 03:47:26 <raster> that is what glamo did solve
Apr 04 03:47:39 <raster> (well attach wifi AND keep the micro-sd card)
Apr 04 03:47:57 <budfive> aaaaah. I'm playing with tangogps trying to break glamo. Hasn't broken the glamo, yet, but I was just randomly pounded with maybe 200 of "ar6000_wow interrupt"... anybody know anything about THIS one?
Apr 04 03:48:45 <budfive> i wifi is off, afaik
Apr 04 03:49:01 <raster> wpwrak: were there any sane sdio multiplexers that could have done mmc and wifi together?
Apr 04 03:49:12 <raster> i know you looked for some
Apr 04 03:50:16 <wpwrak> raster: no, we didn't want to mess with multiplexing
Apr 04 03:50:24 <raster> ok
Apr 04 03:50:41 <wpwrak> raster: but just spi would have been acceptable, i think
Apr 04 03:50:49 <raster> for wifi?
Apr 04 03:51:08 <raster> we didnt have any need for wakeup (unsuspend) on wifi interrupt
Apr 04 03:51:19 <raster> so as long as wifif is cleanly shut down before suspend...
Apr 04 03:56:23 <wpwrak> raster: you could have interrupt also with spi
Apr 04 03:58:56 <raster> but whats the actual problem?
Apr 04 04:01:45 <wpwrak> raster: what problem ?
Apr 04 04:02:50 <raster> <wpwrak> raster: it's a sleep issue - with spi, you run into problems like we have with the calypso
Apr 04 04:09:09 <TAsn> bah, I'm tired.
Apr 04 04:10:16 <budfive> how functional is android on FR these days?
Apr 04 04:10:40 <TAsn> hey raster, I started implementing rtl support for e, in my opinion the transition from logical to visual ordering should be done in the drawing object i.e in evas_object_text_text_set, what do you think about that? any suggestions?
Apr 04 04:11:23 <TAsn> (that's of course only for text, textblocks will be implemented roughly the same)
Apr 04 04:14:15 <raster> TAsn: yes. the test string is encoded as-is
Apr 04 04:14:27 <raster> the drawing latyer needs to know if it is to draw one way or the other
Apr 04 04:14:29 <raster> (somehow)
Apr 04 04:14:37 <TAsn> what I do
Apr 04 04:14:38 <raster> and then the problem with mixed encodings
Apr 04 04:14:46 <raster> ie mixzed rtl and ltr text
Apr 04 04:14:52 <TAsn> I can handle that
Apr 04 04:14:58 <raster> (eg arabic quoting english or vice-versa)
Apr 04 04:15:03 <raster> what about composition?
Apr 04 04:15:07 <raster> i think arabic uses it
Apr 04 04:15:18 <raster> ie multiple chars are layered on top of eachother
Apr 04 04:15:21 <TAsn> wait, the text parameter is utf8 right?
Apr 04 04:15:26 <wpwrak> raster: ah, that special signaling is needed to make sure the fsm doesn't get out of sync. but the problem doesn't exist in sd spi mode, only in native spi mode
Apr 04 04:15:28 <raster> (the chars are encoded in the strign as separate chars)
Apr 04 04:15:36 <raster> all test is utf8 - yes
Apr 04 04:15:52 <TAsn> raster, I'm using the unicode bidi algorithm to fix rtl
Apr 04 04:16:01 <TAsn> as for arabic and chars on top of each other, that's harder.
Apr 04 04:16:12 <TAsn> especially since I don't know arabic
Apr 04 04:16:17 <TAsn> though rtl support is a start.
Apr 04 04:17:07 <TAsn> for reasons unclear to me I succeeded adding rtl support though I only get back half of the string.
Apr 04 04:17:19 <TAsn> what's the best/easiest way to debug it?
Apr 04 04:17:35 <TAsn> I just need some debugging output, nothing more, never debugged a lib before.
Apr 04 04:17:43 <raster> ok
Apr 04 04:17:51 <raster> well rtl will cover hebrew without composition
Apr 04 04:17:58 <TAsn> yeah
Apr 04 04:17:58 <raster> i dont know either hebrew or arabic
Apr 04 04:18:03 <TAsn> i know hebrew
Apr 04 04:18:14 <raster> so i'm useless when it comes to rtl other than i have looked at some of the "caveats" of it and went "eeeek!"
Apr 04 04:18:22 <TAsn> composition isn't essential in hebrew, furthermore, people rarely use it.
Apr 04 04:18:38 <TAsn> raster, ;]
Apr 04 04:18:41 <raster> ok
Apr 04 04:18:46 <raster> then hebrew is settled
Apr 04 04:18:50 <raster> as for debug
Apr 04 04:18:54 <raster> seriously.. gdb does work
Apr 04 04:18:56 <raster> valgrind does
Apr 04 04:19:01 <raster> but i use a lot of printfs
Apr 04 04:19:09 <raster> when iw ant to follow flow/logic/state
Apr 04 04:19:10 <TAsn> printfs to where?
Apr 04 04:19:17 <raster> i almost exclusively use printf
Apr 04 04:19:19 <raster> just to stdout
Apr 04 04:19:23 <TAsn> i c.
Apr 04 04:19:25 <raster> i run my apps form the cmdline
Apr 04 04:19:28 <TAsn> yeah.
Apr 04 04:19:29 <TAsn> got ya.
Apr 04 04:19:30 <raster> (when debugging)
Apr 04 04:19:36 <raster> so it all comes to stdout as normal
Apr 04 04:20:07 <raster> wpwrak: oooh ok. so not a sleep/wake issue for suspwnd/resume
Apr 04 04:20:08 <raster> gotcha
Apr 04 04:20:38 <TAsn> raster, btw, the only downside is a dependency.
Apr 04 04:21:00 <TAsn> I can statically link it, though I use a unicode bidi lib
Apr 04 04:21:11 <TAsn> just for you to know...
Apr 04 04:21:52 <raster> fribidi?
Apr 04 04:22:01 <TAsn> aye.
Apr 04 04:22:06 <raster> thats ok
Apr 04 04:22:11 <raster> if its #ifdef'd and optional
Apr 04 04:22:13 <raster> thats just fine
Apr 04 04:22:24 <raster> (those that want the support - use it - those that dont, disable)
Apr 04 04:22:29 <TAsn> cool enough.
Apr 04 04:25:40 <raster> :)
Apr 04 04:25:47 <raster> i've never been against rtl langs
Apr 04 04:25:57 <raster> they just are much less used than ltr
Apr 04 04:26:06 <raster> and i know i dont speak any of them
Apr 04 04:26:15 <raster> and the e devs that do.. didnt like using them :)
Apr 04 04:26:31 <raster> so it all got pretty much dropped and not looked at
Apr 04 04:29:22 <TAsn> i also hate rtl
Apr 04 04:29:30 <TAsn> though I'm afraid I have to use it. ;\
Apr 04 04:29:36 <TAsn> btw, I have noticed an annoying bug
Apr 04 04:29:56 <TAsn> I can use utf8 chars with the keyboard just fine
Apr 04 04:30:06 <TAsn> though after a restart e won't load
Apr 04 04:30:24 <TAsn> not until I remove the .e/e/dict* dirs
Apr 04 04:31:27 <raster> you have to use it?
Apr 04 04:31:41 <raster> hmmm
Apr 04 04:31:47 <raster> dict parsing issues
Apr 04 04:31:53 <raster> back to having to redo the dict format
Apr 04 04:32:04 <raster> it just is to inefficient to prase quickyl if its utf8
Apr 04 04:33:43 <TAsn> in my opinion
Apr 04 04:33:52 <TAsn> you just need to have an option to disable dict
Apr 04 04:34:01 <TAsn> I don't want the dict in the hebrew layout anyway
Apr 04 04:34:13 <TAsn> but I can't disable that because "א" is a word ;\
Apr 04 04:35:34 <raster> well technically its disabled if the kbd layout specifies keysyms as opposed to strings
Apr 04 04:35:55 <raster> ie comma not ","
Apr 04 04:36:01 <raster> the terminal.kbd does that
Apr 04 04:36:05 <raster> thus.. bypasses dict
Apr 04 04:37:07 <TAsn> but you can't use words between cammas iirc
Apr 04 04:37:19 <TAsn> and utf8 chars are handled as words (again iirc)
Apr 04 04:37:32 <TAsn> that's only from the top of my head, when I tried that a while ago.
Apr 04 04:38:14 <raster> oh that was an example
Apr 04 04:38:19 <raster> same as q vs "q"
Apr 04 04:38:40 <raster> you need to find out what the keysym for that is
Apr 04 04:38:59 <raster> as such the kbd can only output keys for strings that HAVE a keystroke
Apr 04 04:39:04 <raster> ie there is one for "q"
Apr 04 04:39:30 <raster> there is NOT one for "魚"
Apr 04 04:39:39 <raster> (chinese character for "fish")
Apr 04 04:39:46 <raster> no such keysym exists in x
Apr 04 04:39:52 <raster> thus u can put it in a string in the .kbd
Apr 04 04:40:00 <raster> and it will never sanely produce any output to apps
Apr 04 04:40:01 <raster> :(
Apr 04 04:40:07 <TAsn> really?
Apr 04 04:40:15 <TAsn> I'm using hebrew letters all the time
Apr 04 04:40:16 <raster> yup
Apr 04 04:40:23 <raster> thats because they do exist
Apr 04 04:40:23 <TAsn> as words
Apr 04 04:40:29 <raster> you're just lucky
Apr 04 04:40:36 <raster> there are limitations to the kbd
Apr 04 04:40:38 <TAsn> so I can use them as chars?
Apr 04 04:40:40 <TAsn> i.e א
Apr 04 04:40:44 <TAsn> without the "
Apr 04 04:40:44 <TAsn>  ?
Apr 04 04:40:47 <raster> for example keysyms for japanese hiragana/katakaba exist
Apr 04 04:40:53 <raster> but not the chinese chars
Apr 04 04:40:58 <raster> and no u cant
Apr 04 04:41:26 <raster> have a look at keysymdef.h
Apr 04 04:41:29 <raster> in the x headers
Apr 04 04:41:31 <TAsn> so what should I do in order to get past the dict? ;]
Apr 04 04:41:34 <TAsn> I will.
Apr 04 04:41:39 <raster> the stuff after XK_
Apr 04 04:41:42 <raster> is the "keysym"
Apr 04 04:41:49 <raster> that is what x defines as available stuff
Apr 04 04:42:32 <raster> XF86keysym.h also for extnended ones
Apr 04 04:43:28 <raster> #ifdef XK_HEBREW
Apr 04 04:43:28 <raster> #define XK_hebrew_doublelowline          0x0cdf  /* U+2017 DOUBLE LOW LINE */
Apr 04 04:43:29 <raster> ...
Apr 04 04:43:35 <raster> hebrew_doublelowline
Apr 04 04:43:38 <TAsn> hebrew_aleph
Apr 04 04:43:39 <TAsn> ok
Apr 04 04:43:39 <raster> hebrew_aleph
Apr 04 04:43:42 <raster> etc. etc.
Apr 04 04:43:46 <TAsn> thanks, will try that.
Apr 04 04:43:51 <raster> beats trhe crap out of me what they map to string-wise
Apr 04 04:43:59 <raster> but.. if u use hebrew_*
Apr 04 04:44:03 <raster> instead of "some string"
Apr 04 04:44:08 <raster> you bypass the dict
Apr 04 04:44:17 <raster> those keystrokes go direct to the app with no lookup in between
Apr 04 04:44:56 <raster> (i know its a bit inconvenient - but i designed it this way - strings mean "look me up" and syms == "dont look me up")
Apr 04 04:45:07 <raster> most peolpe have no idea how x works with keysyms etc.
Apr 04 04:45:20 <raster> so they only think the string method is the only thing that exists
Apr 04 04:45:21 <raster> :)
Apr 04 04:45:32 <raster> if u browse through that keysymdef.h
Apr 04 04:45:37 <raster> u'll see a LOT of languages are there
Apr 04 04:45:56 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 04:57:21 <TAsn> raster, done copying by hand! testing ;]
Apr 04 05:09:50 <TAsn> raster, cool! thanks.
Apr 04 06:46:38 <Arigead> Question about SHR App GUIs. Please go easy, I'm an embedded C Developer and I've never dabbled in the Dark art of GUIs
Apr 04 06:49:35 * raster releases the hounds
Apr 04 06:52:07 <Arigead> So I'm using shr-testing and decided I'd look at how the apps are put together so started looking at openmoko-contacts3. The contacts-phonegui.c files is a lot lighter then I'd expected. I can't see any e files (Which I thought SHR used)? I'll just get my coat.
Apr 04 06:54:04 <raster> e files?
Apr 04 06:54:30 <raster> i dont know the code u are looking at
Apr 04 06:54:35 <raster> is it vala?
Apr 04 06:57:55 <TAsn> raster, no, it's c.
Apr 04 06:57:59 <TAsn> Arigead, 
Apr 04 06:58:16 <TAsn> the openmoko-contacts/messages/etc...
Apr 04 06:58:23 <TAsn> apps are just wrappers to launch the guis
Apr 04 06:58:37 <TAsn> the guis are actually written in libframeworkd-phonegui-efl
Apr 04 06:58:52 <budfive> TAsn: did you write any of those?
Apr 04 06:58:58 <TAsn> budfive, nope.
Apr 04 06:59:03 <TAsn> quickdev wrote everything.
Apr 04 06:59:14 <budfive> TAsn: lucky for you. i was about to complain. :)
Apr 04 06:59:18 <TAsn> haha ;]
Apr 04 06:59:29 <TAsn> instead of complaining you can ask questions
Apr 04 06:59:38 <TAsn> and i'll try to help clarifying stuff
Apr 04 06:59:43 <TAsn> (I'm not an expert myself)
Apr 04 06:59:45 <TAsn> but still.
Apr 04 06:59:53 <TAsn> raster, still here?
Apr 04 07:00:01 <Arigead> TAsn: Still here, still looking at code. Thanks for that I didn't think that the framework actually provided the GUIs I'll check there. Thanks a million 
Apr 04 07:00:04 <budfive> TAsn: if the contacts are open, you cant' get the dialer back, unless you close the contacts. that's not much of a question
Apr 04 07:00:20 <TAsn> Arigead, libframeworkd-phongui is not part of the framework.
Apr 04 07:00:45 <TAsn> budfive, lol, ok ;]
Apr 04 07:00:55 <TAsn> btw I also have complaints!
Apr 04 07:01:10 <TAsn> the yes button is on the right when trying to delete contacts
Apr 04 07:01:16 <TAsn> and on the left when trying to delete messages.
Apr 04 07:01:24 <TAsn> now that's annoying! ;]
Apr 04 07:02:15 <budfive> TAsn: haha. something bugged me about those dialogs, but i was never quite sure what. this is totally it
Apr 04 07:02:18 <Arigead> TAsn: the naming had be confused what with framework in there.
Apr 04 07:02:36 <TAsn> Arigead, well, it is a framework ;]
Apr 04 07:02:48 <budfive> TAsn: did quickdev do the phone logger as well?
Apr 04 07:02:53 <TAsn> no, that's me.
Apr 04 07:03:10 <budfive> TAsn: ooooh
Apr 04 07:03:12 <TAsn> go ahead
Apr 04 07:03:15 <TAsn> start complaining ;]
Apr 04 07:03:16 <budfive> TAsn: :)
Apr 04 07:03:38 <budfive> TAsn: i'm seeing that if the logger is running, and events happen, they don't go into the log. if i restart the logger, i see the events
Apr 04 07:04:11 <TAsn> yeah.
Apr 04 07:04:15 <TAsn> sec I'll explain why 
Apr 04 07:04:29 <Arigead> So am I even in the right place? I've downloaded the SHR oe repo and pulled in the apps but the code there is just a wrapper to the code somewhere?
Apr 04 07:04:48 <TAsn> budfive, first of all
Apr 04 07:04:54 <TAsn> it can be changed through the config
Apr 04 07:05:03 <TAsn> can't recall the config option atm
Apr 04 07:05:09 <TAsn> though it's obvious
Apr 04 07:05:11 <raster> TAsn:  ja?
Apr 04 07:05:13 <TAsn> .phonelog/
Apr 04 07:05:15 <budfive> Arigead: the OE contains all the code on the device, so it's all there
Apr 04 07:05:19 <TAsn> raster, just wanting to make sure
Apr 04 07:05:24 <TAsn> as for object_text
Apr 04 07:05:31 <TAsn> only text_text_set matters
Apr 04 07:05:37 <TAsn> and for blocktext
Apr 04 07:05:45 <TAsn> only text prepend and append?
Apr 04 07:05:52 <raster> ummm
Apr 04 07:05:56 <raster> in what way?
Apr 04 07:06:00 <raster> "matters"
Apr 04 07:06:00 <raster> ?
Apr 04 07:06:19 <TAsn> by matters
Apr 04 07:06:30 <TAsn> where I should add rtl support at
Apr 04 07:06:39 <TAsn> where the object is populated before it's drawn.
Apr 04 07:07:19 <raster> oooh
Apr 04 07:07:48 <raster> you want the support much deeper down in the evas_font_* calls
Apr 04 07:08:06 <raster> for starters (for text objects - textblock will require work too for general layout)
Apr 04 07:08:16 <raster> they are in src/lib/engines/common
Apr 04 07:08:24 <raster> that is the font/text abstraction layer
Apr 04 07:08:32 <TAsn> budfive, anyhow, it caused a nasty race condition since either because of pyphonelog or ophonekitd.
Apr 04 07:08:32 <raster> you basically tewll it to load fonts at sizes
Apr 04 07:08:38 <raster> and can query strings and their geometry
Apr 04 07:08:41 <raster> and draw strings
Apr 04 07:08:45 <TAsn> i c.
Apr 04 07:09:19 <TAsn> common engines then, will check that out.
Apr 04 07:09:25 <TAsn> just for you to know though
Apr 04 07:09:29 <TAsn> it's working great atm ;]
Apr 04 07:09:42 <raster> cool!
Apr 04 07:09:43 <raster> :)
Apr 04 07:09:44 <TAsn> (but of course i'll do it(
Apr 04 07:09:58 <TAsn> just verifying blocktext now.
Apr 04 07:09:59 <raster> i have been mulling over doign work on the text stuff
Apr 04 07:10:05 <budfive> TAsn: i see. so the option is auto_refresh, I assume, and it's off because of the race condition?
Apr 04 07:10:07 <raster> i know textblock spends a huge amount of time in freetype
Apr 04 07:10:11 <raster> when doing layout
Apr 04 07:10:18 <TAsn> budfive, aye.
Apr 04 07:10:27 <raster> i really should add a caching layer in between where a given string is cached withing an object
Apr 04 07:11:17 <TAsn> maybe you'll have an idea
Apr 04 07:11:37 <budfive> TAsn: do you know much about the problem? Should I look into it?
Apr 04 07:11:48 <TAsn> I'm still trying to figure out how to determine the size (in bytes) of a unicode string when will be converted to utf8
Apr 04 07:11:58 <TAsn> budfive, you can, it's not that complicated
Apr 04 07:12:05 <TAsn> either pyphonelog or ophonekitd or both
Apr 04 07:12:19 <TAsn> don't retry after seeing sqlite db locked
Apr 04 07:12:23 <TAsn> they just crash
Apr 04 07:12:27 <TAsn> (not sure which)
Apr 04 07:12:33 <TAsn> and it can get locked
Apr 04 07:12:38 <TAsn> when the other is writing/reading
Apr 04 07:12:42 <TAsn> at the exact same time.
Apr 04 07:13:29 <budfive> TAsn: ok. i'll put that on the list. thanks. 
Apr 04 07:13:54 <TAsn> send me and the ophonekitd team a patch when you are done
Apr 04 07:13:57 <TAsn> *please*
Apr 04 07:14:41 <budfive> TAsn: of course
Apr 04 07:14:53 <TAsn> raster, haha, raster, it's so cool ;]
Apr 04 07:15:00 <TAsn> having hebrew on the moko
Apr 04 07:15:01 <TAsn> wow.
Apr 04 07:15:02 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 07:15:40 <raster> TAsn: oooh u have no idea on a unicode str len until converted to utf8
Apr 04 07:15:43 <raster> as its variable
Apr 04 07:15:51 <raster> so u need to convert - then strlen() it
Apr 04 07:15:53 <TAsn> I know.
Apr 04 07:15:57 <TAsn> that's what I did.
Apr 04 07:16:17 <raster> so i's working now?
Apr 04 07:16:18 <TAsn> just wondered. ;\
Apr 04 07:16:23 <TAsn> raster, yeah. ;]
Apr 04 07:16:51 <TAsn> though it's implemented in the evas_object* files
Apr 04 07:16:58 <TAsn> I should move it to the engine.
Apr 04 07:19:04 <raster> yeah
Apr 04 07:19:10 <raster> the font code shoudl be handling it
Apr 04 07:19:14 <raster> not at the object lewvel
Apr 04 07:19:21 <raster> the object level just deals with string blobs
Apr 04 07:19:28 <raster> thats where textblock needs logic
Apr 04 07:19:39 <raster> as it lays out text blobs and thus "assumes" layout left to right
Apr 04 07:19:49 <raster> it needs to know how to do rtl
Apr 04 07:19:58 <raster> within the string blobs it lays out - it doesnt care.
Apr 04 07:20:44 <TAsn> cool enough.
Apr 04 07:24:32 <TAsn> btw raster, do you have any idea why I can't input hebrew chars to efl apps?
Apr 04 07:24:46 <TAsn> I mean with the illume keyboard
Apr 04 07:27:48 <raster> TAsn:  that.. i dont know
Apr 04 07:28:00 <raster> it may be that they dont handle the key remapping properly?
Apr 04 07:28:09 <TAsn> what do you mean?
Apr 04 07:28:18 <raster> or simply they get no return from x convertign keysym to string
Apr 04 07:28:36 <raster> well in order to press those fynky hebrew keys the vkbd remaps the keyboard
Apr 04 07:28:49 <raster> creating some temporary virtual keys that have these keysyms
Apr 04 07:29:04 <raster> that reauires apps handle the key remap event
Apr 04 07:29:12 <raster> and modify thier internal mapping of the keyobard
Apr 04 07:29:35 <TAsn> i c.
Apr 04 07:29:45 <TAsn> so is this a specific app bug
Apr 04 07:29:53 <TAsn> or an etk/elementary/e bug?
Apr 04 07:30:39 <raster> likel ecore
Apr 04 07:30:41 <raster> ecore-x
Apr 04 07:30:51 <raster> it does do the call to update mapping
Apr 04 07:30:55 <raster> but if it is that
Apr 04 07:30:56 <raster> or later on
Apr 04 07:30:58 <raster> i dont know
Apr 04 07:31:09 <raster> i am not sure what the output is as i've.. never tried
Apr 04 07:31:09 <raster> :)
Apr 04 07:33:16 <TAsn> I should teach you hebrew ;]
Apr 04 07:34:26 <TAsn> ok, you wanted me to put it in font draw, right?
Apr 04 07:35:21 <TAsn> I just hope it gets there as a batch
Apr 04 07:35:33 <TAsn> actually, raster I'm not sure that's a good place.
Apr 04 07:35:44 <TAsn> I think the current one is better
Apr 04 07:35:51 <TAsn> because let's say I have a long sent
Apr 04 07:36:12 <TAsn> won't it get wrapped 
Apr 04 07:36:22 <TAsn> and will be sent split to font draw?
Apr 04 07:36:33 <TAsn> if so, the ordering may be broken because of the line break.
Apr 04 07:36:40 <TAsn> you get what I mean?
Apr 04 07:37:04 <TAsn> I can easily do it, though I'm just saying... ;]
Apr 04 07:37:39 <TAsn> example:
Apr 04 07:38:06 <TAsn> the lazy fox ate the fat chicken
Apr 04 07:38:14 <TAsn> is supposed to look like this when wrapped:
Apr 04 07:38:18 <TAsn> the lazy fox ate
Apr 04 07:38:23 <TAsn> the fat chicken
Apr 04 07:38:33 <TAsn> though if it would have been written backwards
Apr 04 07:38:46 <TAsn> i.e, needs fribidi
Apr 04 07:38:55 <TAsn> it would become:
Apr 04 07:38:57 <TAsn> the fat chicken
Apr 04 07:38:58 <TAsn> the lazy fox ate
Apr 04 07:39:01 <TAsn> ...
Apr 04 07:39:01 <TAsn> ;\
Apr 04 07:39:27 <TAsn> though it's a problem if the object won't represent logical data ;\
Apr 04 07:40:04 <TAsn> dilemmas - life is tough.
Apr 04 07:40:51 <raster> oh
Apr 04 07:40:57 <raster> you are trying to reverse the string encoding!
Apr 04 07:41:05 <raster> not sure thats the right thing...
Apr 04 07:41:13 <TAsn> then what?
Apr 04 07:41:20 <raster> reverse the draw
Apr 04 07:41:28 <TAsn> I know that's the right thing to do
Apr 04 07:41:37 <TAsn> though it's a problem with multi line draws!
Apr 04 07:41:51 <TAsn> look at the fat chicken example
Apr 04 07:42:13 <raster> yes
Apr 04 07:42:18 <raster> so if u just revrse the draw
Apr 04 07:42:27 <raster> and revrse the layout walk
Apr 04 07:42:30 <raster> its easy
Apr 04 07:42:34 <raster> and onyl do it per line
Apr 04 07:42:38 <raster> for test objects its easy
Apr 04 07:42:43 <raster> for textblock - less easy
Apr 04 07:42:52 <raster> but much less nastiness than trying to reverse the encoding
Apr 04 07:43:58 <TAsn> wait, who's responsible for line wrapping?
Apr 04 07:44:03 <TAsn> the font draw
Apr 04 07:44:11 <TAsn> ?
Apr 04 07:44:36 <raster> text object doesnt wrap
Apr 04 07:44:38 <raster> textblock does
Apr 04 07:44:44 <raster> textblock is in charge there
Apr 04 07:45:18 <TAsn> yeah, I'm talking about textblock
Apr 04 07:45:50 <raster> textblock does
Apr 04 07:45:55 <raster> but when uit places a string
Apr 04 07:46:05 <raster> it assumes the string goes left to right
Apr 04 07:46:11 <raster> thus it starts at 0,0 at top-left
Apr 04 07:46:18 <TAsn> and wraps
Apr 04 07:46:23 <raster> and then asks "which char does the coord X intersect"
Apr 04 07:46:33 <raster> X bing the right edge of the region
Apr 04 07:46:41 <TAsn> exactly why I'm doing it before.
Apr 04 07:46:45 <raster> from that char it walks backwards in word wrap to the nearest space
Apr 04 07:46:48 <raster> then cuts there
Apr 04 07:46:51 <raster> then repeats
Apr 04 07:46:56 <raster> until nothing is left in the string
Apr 04 07:46:58 <TAsn> yeah, I figured
Apr 04 07:46:59 <raster> (or a newline is hit)
Apr 04 07:47:09 <raster> all it needs to do is know to go from right to left instead
Apr 04 07:47:10 <TAsn> that's why I did it before all that scenario.
Apr 04 07:47:30 <raster> in fact
Apr 04 07:47:32 <TAsn> oh, it's just a 2d character array?
Apr 04 07:47:37 <raster> it just starts coords 0 at the right side
Apr 04 07:47:39 <raster> not left
Apr 04 07:47:51 <raster> so drawing instead of x = node->x
Apr 04 07:47:59 <raster> x = width - node->x
Apr 04 07:48:17 <raster> ooh no
Apr 04 07:48:26 <raster> textblock has text and format nodes as input
Apr 04 07:48:36 <raster> text nodes just provide "raw text"
Apr 04 07:48:44 <raster> format nodes modify formatting
Apr 04 07:48:48 <TAsn> it's not that simple, since you can mix english and hebrew.
Apr 04 07:48:54 <raster> ie push/pop a new format frame
Apr 04 07:49:04 <raster> and within that frame they cna set the color, font, size, alignment etc.
Apr 04 07:49:17 <raster> the formatter walks the text+format nodes and produces layout nodes
Apr 04 07:49:17 <TAsn> oh, you support right alignment?
Apr 04 07:49:37 <raster> these layout nodes each contain a font, size, x,y location and string to draw
Apr 04 07:49:39 <raster> etc.
Apr 04 07:49:48 <TAsn> cool, I should also add that.
Apr 04 07:49:54 <raster> you want the layout engine logic to change when producing these (a little)
Apr 04 07:50:14 <raster> and otherwise the draw engine when it draws these strings - woudl change the same way the normal text object does
Apr 04 07:50:28 <raster> (text objects are a sub-case of tetxblock - much simpler)
Apr 04 07:50:32 <raster> and yes
Apr 04 07:50:35 <raster> right alignment is supported
Apr 04 07:50:43 <TAsn> cool.
Apr 04 07:50:47 <raster> as when it figures out where the text foinally hits the right-edge
Apr 04 07:50:52 <raster> it now can know the widht of a line
Apr 04 07:51:06 <raster> and choose to offset the line start in 
Apr 04 07:51:06 <raster> if its left/center or right aligned
Apr 04 07:51:07 <raster> left means leave it at 0
Apr 04 07:51:10 <raster> and so on
Apr 04 07:51:19 <raster> the textblock code tyhough is a mountain of stuff
Apr 04 07:51:22 <raster> i admit now
Apr 04 07:51:26 <raster> i am no text layout expert!
Apr 04 07:51:34 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 07:51:35 <raster> i simply took what to me seemed the logical course
Apr 04 07:51:49 <TAsn> yeah. well as I said, hebrew is tough.
Apr 04 07:52:31 <TAsn> adding characters compositing sounds easy though
Apr 04 07:52:42 <TAsn> you just tell it to write over the same place.
Apr 04 07:52:48 <TAsn> agai.n
Apr 04 07:53:44 <raster> yeah
Apr 04 07:53:48 <raster> but here comes the catch
Apr 04 07:53:54 <raster> what do u do with selections and cursor placement?
Apr 04 07:53:59 <TAsn> it also writes a background and edges?
Apr 04 07:54:02 <raster> for non-composited text its each
Apr 04 07:54:29 <raster> 1 geomewtric location (x,y coord) maps to being on top of 1 glyph/char (unicode char)
Apr 04 07:54:29 <TAsn> for composited text you just redraw the last char stack
Apr 04 07:54:38 <raster> in compositing.. its now a 1 ro N mapping
Apr 04 07:54:40 <raster> 1 to N
Apr 04 07:54:41 <TAsn> maybe you should make every char a stack
Apr 04 07:54:44 <raster> a new kettle of fish
Apr 04 07:54:45 <TAsn> ?
Apr 04 07:54:45 <raster> :)
Apr 04 07:54:54 <TAsn> i.e instead of a char
Apr 04 07:54:56 <raster> sure
Apr 04 07:54:59 <TAsn> every cell will be a char *
Apr 04 07:55:00 <raster> but i never did make it a stack
Apr 04 07:55:02 <raster> thats the thing
Apr 04 07:55:08 <TAsn> that ends with a NULL.
Apr 04 07:55:08 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 07:55:12 <TAsn> raster, ouch.
Apr 04 07:55:14 <raster> and the whole api and engine is build around a 1:1 mapping assumption
Apr 04 07:55:24 <TAsn> this sucks ;]
Apr 04 07:55:31 <raster> yup
Apr 04 07:55:38 <TAsn> that's why I'm trying to avoid diving in that hell.
Apr 04 07:55:47 <raster> hehehe
Apr 04 07:55:48 <raster> same
Apr 04 07:55:48 <TAsn> and just do my thing from far away ;]
Apr 04 07:56:21 <raster> as such i think the way to go would be to simply have something that can scan a string and break it up into RTL or LTR blocks
Apr 04 07:56:33 <raster> normally it'd just return a single LTR block
Apr 04 07:56:46 <raster> then each of these blocks u draw separately
Apr 04 07:57:01 <raster> (with appropriate placement relative to other blocks)
Apr 04 07:57:17 <TAsn> I wish it was that easy.
Apr 04 07:57:47 <TAsn> though sometimes a mix should be parsed differently
Apr 04 07:57:50 <TAsn> for instance
Apr 04 07:57:59 <TAsn> eng hebrew eng2
Apr 04 07:58:04 <TAsn> should look like it showed
Apr 04 07:58:11 <TAsn> though hebrew eng hebrew2
Apr 04 07:58:17 <TAsn> should look like:
Apr 04 07:58:21 <TAsn> hebrew2 eng hebrew
Apr 04 07:58:35 <raster> oh asure
Apr 04 07:58:45 <raster> thats why - u parse the while thing
Apr 04 07:58:47 <raster> return the blocks
Apr 04 07:58:47 <TAsn> it's more complexity
Apr 04 07:58:57 <TAsn> cool enough.
Apr 04 07:59:01 <raster> but the blocks may be re-orderd on return
Apr 04 07:59:08 <raster> it doesnty mean they come in strict order
Apr 04 08:01:03 <TAsn> i think we cocluded hebrew is a bitch. ;]
Apr 04 08:01:11 <raster> yeah
Apr 04 08:01:19 <raster> why dont they just do ltr
Apr 04 08:01:21 <raster> and be done with it!
Apr 04 08:01:27 <raster> the asians gave up with top-to-bottom
Apr 04 08:01:30 <TAsn> btw, you are probably right about the logical thing.
Apr 04 08:01:32 <raster> they just accepted ltr
Apr 04 08:01:36 <TAsn> raster, they are idiots.
Apr 04 08:01:45 <TAsn> (the jewish people)
Apr 04 08:01:50 <raster> hahaha
Apr 04 08:01:52 <raster> i dont think so
Apr 04 08:01:56 <raster> just./.. traditional
Apr 04 08:02:02 <TAsn> bah.
Apr 04 08:02:02 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 08:02:28 <raster> some peolpe are very attached to their traditions
Apr 04 08:02:40 <raster> i keep hearing of all sorts of efforts to revife "dead" languages
Apr 04 08:02:42 <raster> like welsh
Apr 04 08:02:43 <raster> or irish
Apr 04 08:02:46 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 08:02:54 <raster> and people "lamenting" the death of languages
Apr 04 08:02:55 <raster> etc.,
Apr 04 08:03:04 <TAsn> it's more reasonable than using ltr.
Apr 04 08:03:14 <raster> i always think" thank bloody god! one less damned language to worry about!"
Apr 04 08:03:19 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 08:03:21 <TAsn> exactly.
Apr 04 08:03:26 <raster> but people run around lamenting it
Apr 04 08:03:45 <raster> one less complexity in displaying/handling text.. is good
Apr 04 08:04:02 <raster> i'll - for now, axxelt maybe hebrew hchars as acceptable
Apr 04 08:04:16 <raster> but just draw the suckers left to right like everyone else! :)
Apr 04 08:04:26 <TAsn> lol.
Apr 04 08:04:27 <TAsn> yeah.
Apr 04 08:04:37 <raster> (to be honest... i actually have come to like hangul... its really nice and logical!"
Apr 04 08:05:26 <TAsn> I have no idea what that is.
Apr 04 08:05:42 <raster> korean script
Apr 04 08:05:47 <raster> it may look like chinese chars
Apr 04 08:05:52 <raster> but its phonetic and logical
Apr 04 08:05:57 <raster> you should read up on it
Apr 04 08:06:03 <raster> its rather cool
Apr 04 08:06:11 <TAsn> who use it?
Apr 04 08:06:15 <raster> also japanese (hiragana and katakana) is pretty nice and logical
Apr 04 08:06:25 <raster> the kanji (chinese chars) they use though messes it all up
Apr 04 08:06:33 <raster> who uses hangul? just the koreans
Apr 04 08:06:35 <raster> no one else
Apr 04 08:06:45 <TAsn> i c.
Apr 04 08:06:47 <raster> just credit where credit is due for well "designed" scripts
Apr 04 08:06:55 <raster> i know nothing of hebrew - so i cant say
Apr 04 08:07:00 <raster> (or hindi, tamil etc.)
Apr 04 08:08:52 <TAsn> you wouldn't give it any credit anyway
Apr 04 08:08:53 <TAsn> it sucks
Apr 04 08:08:54 <TAsn> badly.
Apr 04 08:08:54 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 08:09:53 <raster> hehehe
Apr 04 08:09:59 <raster> well i'll take your word for it
Apr 04 08:10:07 <raster> after having learn japanese tho
Apr 04 08:10:13 <raster> and enough kanji...
Apr 04 08:10:20 <raster> i do say.. it has its efficiencies
Apr 04 08:10:31 <raster> after a while i could read kanji for "common daily stuff" faster than english
Apr 04 08:10:56 <raster> simply recognising a shape as opposed to reading a long word... really helped
Apr 04 08:11:26 <raster> 新宿 (for me) became much faster to read than "Shinjuku"
Apr 04 08:11:36 <raster> 魚 was probably easier than "fish"
Apr 04 08:13:45 <__face> has anyone gotten desktop icons going in e17 on debian?
Apr 04 08:14:37 <__face> raster, care to help debug?
Apr 04 08:15:58 <TAsn> raster, for now I'm staying with the character reversing approach, though just implementing it lower
Apr 04 08:16:04 <TAsn> i.e in the font draw function
Apr 04 08:16:11 <TAsn> lets hope it won't be terrible.
Apr 04 08:16:43 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 08:16:45 <raster> __face: ummm they work for me.. but i have no idea what debian is doing
Apr 04 08:16:56 <raster> it may have an ancient version of e
Apr 04 08:16:59 <raster> i dont know
Apr 04 08:17:05 <raster> (i do all my dev on ubuntu)
Apr 04 08:17:24 <raster> TAsn: let's see :)
Apr 04 08:17:28 <__face> raster, well the version in fso repo
Apr 04 08:17:41 <TAsn> raster, sec.
Apr 04 08:17:48 <TAsn> __face, it's old.
Apr 04 08:17:51 <TAsn> I'm working on that
Apr 04 08:18:03 <TAsn> and it's different from the svn in many ways.
Apr 04 08:18:04 <TAsn> ;\
Apr 04 08:18:35 <__face> TAsn, are you working on packaging svn?
Apr 04 08:18:41 <TAsn> no
Apr 04 08:18:50 <TAsn> though I don't think it requires any work
Apr 04 08:18:54 <TAsn> just bump the rev.
Apr 04 08:19:04 <__face> TAsn, then what?
Apr 04 08:20:54 <__face> TAsn, how do I go about getting a recent version on my debian freerunner?
Apr 04 08:21:18 <TAsn> do you have an oe environment set?
Apr 04 08:21:28 <TAsn> if so
Apr 04 08:21:30 <TAsn> just go to
Apr 04 08:21:35 <raster> e, with its standard profile, as a filemanager
Apr 04 08:21:38 <raster> and puts icons ont he desktop
Apr 04 08:25:09 <TAsn> raster, erasing/adding a character refreshes the whole line or just that specific cell? (probably just cell, just wanting to make sure)
Apr 04 08:47:24 <TAsn> raster, works great when applied on the font draw, now checking wrapping! ;]
Apr 04 08:50:42 <budfive> raster: do you know why mouse selection doesn't work in shr? Is that a setting somewhere?
Apr 04 08:51:57 <TAsn> budfive, ++
Apr 04 08:55:05 <TAsn> have anyone experience many line breaks with shr-messages?
Apr 04 08:55:34 <TAsn> raster, anyhow raster, it's working beautifully! ;]
Apr 04 08:55:51 <TAsn> will add a patch soon enough.
Apr 04 08:56:04 <budfive> TAsn: shr-messages is the sms app?
Apr 04 08:56:41 <TAsn> yeah.
Apr 04 08:58:32 <budfive> TAsn: it seemed ok, but i haven't used it much
Apr 04 08:59:12 <TAsn> cool!
Apr 04 08:59:18 <TAsn> it's not my lib which is broken
Apr 04 08:59:22 <TAsn> it's openmoko messages ! ;]
Apr 04 09:05:33 <TAsn> raster, it's working exceptionally well. ;]
Apr 04 09:07:47 <TAsn> including updating text
Apr 04 09:08:01 <TAsn> the only thing I haven't checked yet is line wrapping
Apr 04 09:08:17 <TAsn> though erasing herbew chars in the text reacts as it should.
Apr 04 09:37:59 <Q-Master> Hi ALl
Apr 04 09:42:14 <spaetz> Arigead: still here?
Apr 04 09:43:24 <TAsn> http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/9be478366ace0716b20b2921b45ced44.png
Apr 04 09:43:26 <TAsn> if anyone wants
Apr 04 09:43:30 <TAsn> I wrote a call recording app.
Apr 04 09:44:28 <Q-Master> upload it to opkg.org
Apr 04 09:45:01 <Q-Master> TAsn: how are you changing the background of the illume???
Apr 04 09:45:22 <TAsn> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Call_Recorder
Apr 04 09:45:28 <TAsn> I hate opkg.org
Apr 04 09:45:28 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 09:45:31 <spaetz> Arigead: http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/SHR_Architecture
Apr 04 09:45:35 <TAsn> Q-Master, it's easy
Apr 04 09:45:43 <TAsn> copy the edje file
Apr 04 09:46:00 <TAsn> from /usr/share/enlightenment/themes/illume-shr.edj
Apr 04 09:46:09 <TAsn> and then on your computer
Apr 04 09:46:11 <TAsn> edje_decc
Apr 04 09:46:19 <TAsn> (you have to install it first, of course)
Apr 04 09:46:36 <TAsn> and then change it and the repack
Apr 04 09:46:39 <TAsn> edje_cc
Apr 04 10:23:58 <morphis> heyho
Apr 04 10:24:07 <mirko-paroli> hi morphis
Apr 04 10:24:38 <mirko-paroli> morphis: do you have a py test where the keyboard should close ?
Apr 04 10:24:48 <morphis> actually not
Apr 04 10:25:02 <morphis> I can't test it atm because my freerunner is broken
Apr 04 10:25:06 <mirko-paroli> oh
Apr 04 10:25:15 <morphis> I am very sad about it :(
Apr 04 10:25:26 <mirko-paroli> me too
Apr 04 10:25:30 <mirko-paroli> what's the prob?
Apr 04 10:25:40 <mirko-paroli> completely broken or fixable ?
Apr 04 10:26:05 <morphis> display is broken
Apr 04 10:26:16 <mirko-paroli> outsch
Apr 04 10:26:19 <morphis> jap
Apr 04 10:26:29 <morphis> currently I am search for a cheap new one
Apr 04 10:26:30 <mirko-paroli> hmm
Apr 04 10:26:43 <mirko-paroli> I have no spare otherwise I would give that to you :(
Apr 04 10:26:45 <morphis> but the cheapest would be 69 euro only for the display
Apr 04 10:26:51 <morphis> :)
Apr 04 10:28:24 <morphis> mirko-paroli, the keyboard does not close or what is the problem?
Apr 04 10:28:33 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: is paroli able to store contacts not in sim-card?
Apr 04 10:29:05 <mirko-paroli> morphi: yapp, I do the kbd_win_set(False) but it doesn't close, only if I delete the win
Apr 04 10:29:16 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: nope, it stores all on the device
Apr 04 10:29:45 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: in theory paroli could, but currently it doesn't
Apr 04 10:30:06 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: is that possible to implent? I've made a patch to zhone to store contacts in sqlite db.
Apr 04 10:31:10 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: sure, should be doable just not sure if you it would be better to offer the choice or have  abutton to move a contact from phone to SIM
Apr 04 10:31:56 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: the choice is a good idea
Apr 04 10:32:08 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: let me check sth
Apr 04 10:32:45 <morphis> mirko-paroli, which version of py-elm you have?
Apr 04 10:32:52 <lindi-> Q-Master: wasn't zhone supposed to be a demo app?
Apr 04 10:33:39 <mirko-paroli> morphis: I believe 39796
Apr 04 10:34:16 <morphis> hm ok, than my fix for the function should be in
Apr 04 10:34:19 <Q-Master> lindi-: demo/not demo is not the point. the point is that it is phoning. 8)
Apr 04 10:34:45 <morphis> mirko-paroli, you tried it with an c-elementary test app? maybe its a bug in elementary
Apr 04 10:34:51 <lindi-> Q-Master: so is kapula that already has a phonebook in a text file :)
Apr 04 10:35:01 <Q-Master> and when contacts are imported from vcards and stored to sqlite it is quite useable
Apr 04 10:35:03 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: I would have to check if paroli reloads SIM contacts
Apr 04 10:35:11 <mirko-paroli> lindi-: paroli does too ;)
Apr 04 10:35:39 <Q-Master> lindi-: never seen it
Apr 04 10:35:45 <Q-Master> lindi-: URL?
Apr 04 10:36:02 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: ok.
Apr 04 10:36:28 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: but that would be one line, and moving a contact i.e. storing a new one on the SIM should also be rather small
Apr 04 10:36:32 <mirko-paroli> code-wise
Apr 04 10:37:13 <mirko-paroli> morphis: I'll boot the phone, but I think in elm_test there is no way of checking that, because it also closes the win to get rid of the kbd
Apr 04 10:37:18 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: I can send you a patch to zhone which is using simple sql queries.
Apr 04 10:38:03 <morphis> mirko-paroli, write yourself a little test app in c and check it
Apr 04 10:39:51 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: sure
Apr 04 10:40:32 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: I need your email. dcc won't work IMO.
Apr 04 10:40:45 <mirko-paroli> mirko@openmoko.org
Apr 04 10:41:34 <lindi-> Q-Master: http://iki.fi/lindi/darcs/kapula/
Apr 04 10:42:13 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: I'll send you it today.
Apr 04 10:42:21 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: cool thx
Apr 04 10:42:55 <mirko-paroli> lindi-: gtk fan?
Apr 04 10:43:56 <Q-Master> gtk is slow as hell
Apr 04 10:45:33 <morphis> Q-Master, I can't confirm this :)
Apr 04 10:45:45 <morphis> git is rocking all the time 
Apr 04 10:46:46 <Q-Master> hehe, it is now much slower than QT on my Pegasos II
Apr 04 10:49:34 <morphis> yeah, it seems that I have found some touchscreen-working version of the gnufiish kernel!
Apr 04 11:02:58 <ingi> Anyone know where tichy.git can be found ? 
Apr 04 11:02:58 <ingi> When building fso-milestone5.5, an attempt is to pull tichy from 'git://git.openmoko.org/git/tichy.git' but it's definitely not there.
Apr 04 11:03:13 <mirko-paroli> ingi: it moved to google
Apr 04 11:03:14 <mirko-paroli> one sec
Apr 04 11:03:21 <mirko-paroli> http://code.google.com/p/tichy/
Apr 04 11:03:54 <mirko-paroli> ingi: what ya using tichy for?
Apr 04 11:04:32 <ingi> mirko-paroli: Nothing, it just one part of the build when I do a 'make fso-gta02-milestone5.5-image' ...
Apr 04 11:04:40 <mirko-paroli> ah ok
Apr 04 11:04:49 <mirko-paroli> that in OE ?
Apr 04 11:05:36 <ingi> mirko-paroli: so I only need to fetch a new 'tichy_git.bb' then ? or just replace the 'SRC_URI' line to 'http://code.google.com/p/tichy/' ?
Apr 04 11:06:05 <mirko-paroli> i am sure the bb wasn't changed, as the project is discontinued
Apr 04 11:06:10 <mirko-paroli> can you just remove the recipe ?
Apr 04 11:06:23 <ingi> Yep, that way simpler than anything else :-)
Apr 04 11:07:48 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: sent you a zhone.
Apr 04 11:07:56 <mirko-paroli> Q-Master: ah thx
Apr 04 11:08:47 <mirko-paroli> hehe, ok I will try to find what I am looking for, in case you wanna check in paroli, it is a file called persistance.py
Apr 04 11:10:27 <Q-Master> mirko-paroli: comments roxx. 8)
Apr 04 11:10:44 <Q-Master> ll the data will be placed into ~/.tichy directory.
Apr 04 11:10:49 <mirko-paroli> LOL
Apr 04 11:10:53 <mirko-paroli> sry outdated :(
Apr 04 11:10:56 <Q-Master> base_path = os.path.expanduser('~/.paroli/')
Apr 04 11:10:57 <Q-Master> 8))
Apr 04 11:13:51 <lindi-> mirko-paroli: fan of established technology :)
Apr 04 11:14:11 <mirko-paroli> lindi-: hmm ok :)
Apr 04 11:14:35 * mirko-paroli dreams of a gui tk independent paroli ...
Apr 04 11:14:42 <lindi-> mirko-paroli: e17 seems to be seriously under development still and it's not in debian stable
Apr 04 11:15:06 <mirko-paroli> lindi-: sure it is sid, but still rather usable
Apr 04 11:15:41 <Q-Master> e17 still segfaults when using x11_16
Apr 04 11:15:45 <Q-Master> engine
Apr 04 11:16:21 <lindi-> mirko-paroli: i'll rather not spend time debugging those things when established toolkits exists. i rather spend the debugging time on kernel, ogsmd and X
Apr 04 11:18:10 <mirko-paroli> lindi-: understandable
Apr 04 11:47:19 * ingi wonders what 'armv4' feed is good for, OE provides 'all', 'armv4t' and 'om-gta02' stuff, so... ?
Apr 04 11:48:46 <raster> armv4 is anything that runs generically on armv4
Apr 04 11:48:54 <raster> all == doesnt care what architecture its on
Apr 04 11:49:04 <raster> om-gta02 means its hw specific to that particlar device
Apr 04 11:49:13 <raster> the gta02 is an armv4 based device
Apr 04 11:49:21 <raster> there are other devices also armv4 based
Apr 04 11:50:41 <ingi> raster: so if I build OE for another 'armv4' device (i.e. not om-gta02), there would be packages there then ?
Apr 04 11:51:32 <raster> yes
Apr 04 11:51:42 <raster> armv4 is like "486"
Apr 04 11:51:46 <raster> armv5 like "pentium"
Apr 04 11:52:02 <raster> armv5 like "pentium3"
Apr 04 11:52:10 <raster> amd armv7 like "core2 duo"
Apr 04 11:52:17 <raster> ie each generation adds more insturctions
Apr 04 11:52:25 <raster> and different performance characteristics
Apr 04 11:52:34 <raster> an armv4 binary will work on future arm's
Apr 04 11:52:39 <raster> but not the other way around
Apr 04 11:52:51 <ingi> raster: thanks for the pragmatic explanation :-)
Apr 04 11:53:11 <raster> (i am neglecting the wonderful world of jazelle, thumb, vfp and neon extensions to the cpu too - just covering the core cpu)
Apr 04 11:54:09 <lindi-> 'Features        : swp half thumb'
Apr 04 11:54:21 <lindi-> any idea what swp and half are?
Apr 04 11:54:58 <raster> no
Apr 04 11:55:19 <lindi-> grep -r Features .
Apr 04 11:55:33 <DocScrutinizer> moo
Apr 04 11:56:06 <lindi-> somebody should make grep SMP-aware :)
Apr 04 11:57:12 <DocScrutinizer> shouldn't be hard
Apr 04 11:57:28 <lindi-> raster: "swp", "half", "thumb", "26bit", "fastmult", "fpa", "vfp", "edsp", "java", "iwmmxt", "crunch", "thumbee", "neon",
Apr 04 12:07:10 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: checked your mic settings, still all maxed out (except 12). Is sensitivity sufficient now?
Apr 04 12:09:20 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: i dropped 5 to 100
Apr 04 12:09:46 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: since with 127 it was distorting audio already
Apr 04 12:09:49 <DocScrutinizer> ok, very glad to hear ;)
Apr 04 12:11:06 <Q-Master> Why is the DPI settings in e17 config is much lesser than the original DPI for screen?
Apr 04 12:11:40 <raster> no
Apr 04 12:11:46 <raster> you dont get to configure the dpi of the screen
Apr 04 12:11:50 <raster> the screens dpi is fixed
Apr 04 12:11:53 <raster> you cant change that
Apr 04 12:11:58 <raster> you are changing DESIGN dpi
Apr 04 12:12:02 <Q-Master> the screen DPI is dixed
Apr 04 12:12:14 <raster> the dpi at which the theme/ui was designed at/for
Apr 04 12:12:29 <raster> thus current dpi will affecrt the automatically calculated scaling factor
Apr 04 12:12:40 <raster> (eg if current dpi is 2x the design dpi - everything gets scaled by 2x)
Apr 04 12:12:51 <Q-Master> strange, but with this DPI is is mostly off screen in almost all config forms
Apr 04 12:13:19 <raster> correct
Apr 04 12:13:27 <raster> they are not designed for such tiny screens
Apr 04 12:16:15 <Q-Master> if setting dpi to screen dpi they-re almost all in screen
Apr 04 12:21:27 <raster> as i said
Apr 04 12:21:34 <raster> the dialogs are from standard desktop e
Apr 04 12:21:45 <raster> they just are not designed to fit on such a tiny screen
Apr 04 12:41:31 <Q-Master> raster: are there any other themes other than asu and illume?
Apr 04 12:42:26 <raster> i thnik so
Apr 04 12:42:31 <raster> but i havent checked
Apr 04 12:44:40 <budfive> raster: i'm playing with claws-mail. It's actually reasonably small-screen friendly
Apr 04 12:45:05 <budfive> raster: the data-link efficiency could probably be better, but it's workable, even over gprs.
Apr 04 12:46:44 <Dave> budfive!
Apr 04 12:52:23 <budfive> Dave: whoa
Apr 04 12:53:59 <Dave> like, hello! o/
Apr 04 12:55:15 <Q-Master> raster: I've checked the sources of e and found there a lot of various plugins and progs. Seems most of them might be compiled for neo. So why they don't?
Apr 04 12:58:52 <Dave> Q-Master, did you find the e-eats-cpu-for-breakfast bug? :D
Apr 04 12:59:02 <Q-Master> nop
Apr 04 12:59:56 <Dave> aww
Apr 04 13:00:18 <alexxy> hi all 
Apr 04 13:00:29 <alexxy> is shr or parolli workign with opimd?
Apr 04 13:04:34 <Q-Master> Dave: there is a bug with x11_16
Apr 04 13:04:40 <Dave> :o
Apr 04 13:09:22 <Dave> Raster, I just added asslickers to the dictionary. It seemed necessary.
Apr 04 13:11:29 <Q-Master> raster: why e segfaults when using x11-16 engine?
Apr 04 13:18:01 <Sup3rkiddo> mickeyl, hi, around?
Apr 04 13:58:09 <mirko-paroli> alexxy: opimd is not working yet
Apr 04 13:58:22 <mirko-paroli> alexxy: if it was paroli would migrate
Apr 04 14:01:37 <alexxy> ahh ok
Apr 04 14:01:47 <alexxy> then there is no working pim yet
Apr 04 14:02:19 <alexxy> so i still will use 2008.x images
Apr 04 14:09:16 <Q-Master> current distribs except android and qtopia lacks of pim. 8(
Apr 04 14:09:39 <Dave> DOS1
Apr 04 14:12:16 <ptitjes> hellllooooo
Apr 04 14:12:23 <morphis> hey ptitjes 
Apr 04 14:12:30 <mirko-paroli> hi ptitjes
Apr 04 14:13:02 <mirko-paroli> alexxy: it depends on the functionality you are looking for
Apr 04 14:13:02 <morphis> Ainulindale, some note for you, if you update to a newer element srcrev you would break compilation of python-elementary
Apr 04 14:13:20 <morphis> I just saw there are some changes in the API for some widgets
Apr 04 14:13:31 <alexxy> mirko-paroli: i need working adressbook 
Apr 04 14:13:32 <alexxy> =)
Apr 04 14:13:36 <alexxy> not sim one
Apr 04 14:13:48 <mirko-paroli> alexxy: so you want to store more than just a phonenumber and a name per contact ?
Apr 04 14:14:27 <alexxy> yep 
Apr 04 14:14:39 <alexxy> at least 2-3 numbers
Apr 04 14:14:46 <alexxy> and may be email
Apr 04 14:14:47 <mirko-paroli> alexxy: ah, yah that would be difficult right now, in paroli at least
Apr 04 14:15:14 <alexxy> also i have much more contsacts then i can place on sim
Apr 04 14:15:51 <mirko-paroli> alexxy: the number of contacts is not limited in paroli, just might not be very efficient, we have not done any big data testing
Apr 04 14:16:49 <Dave> Hello morphis!
Apr 04 14:16:58 <alexxy> mirko-paroli: can paroli store for example name in UTF-8 and 1-2 phone numbers?
Apr 04 14:17:19 <morphis> hey Dave 
Apr 04 14:17:27 <Dave> :)
Apr 04 14:17:37 <Dave> utf8 phone numbers, wtf?
Apr 04 14:17:47 <Dave> damn foreigners
Apr 04 14:17:58 <alexxy> Dave: name =) not number
Apr 04 14:17:59 <alexxy> =)
Apr 04 14:18:02 <Dave> What, our ascii isn't good enough for you? :P
Apr 04 14:18:13 <Dave> alexxy, oh :P
Apr 04 14:18:17 <alexxy> =)
Apr 04 14:18:29 <alexxy> ascii not enough =)
Apr 04 14:18:32 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 14:18:36 <dos1> DAVE
Apr 04 14:18:37 <Dave> For your craaaaaaaaazy names ;D
Apr 04 14:18:43 <Dave> DOS1: THERE IS NO ESCAPE
Apr 04 14:18:56 <mirko|lunch> alexxy: for now only on enumber
Apr 04 14:19:12 <mirko|lunch> but that can be changed easily, just needs someone to want it and then do it ;)
Apr 04 14:19:57 <dos1> DAVE: NO, THERE IS
Apr 04 14:21:14 <dos1> but i firstly must figure out, where ;x
Apr 04 14:21:36 <Dave> Anyway, apparently a few of us have a bone to pick with you over recent design changes/reversions.
Apr 04 14:21:40 <Dave> What else is new, right? :P
Apr 04 14:26:52 <Dave> MRMOKU
Apr 04 14:26:56 <Dave> You're just in time... >:)
Apr 04 14:27:27 * mrmoku throws in some utf-8 chars in discussion ;)
Apr 04 14:27:28 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: 什麼是調試嗎？
Apr 04 14:28:05 <Dave> No...
Apr 04 14:28:41 <dos1> zażółć gęślą jaźl :x
Apr 04 14:29:56 <Kensan> Ah still the same around here I see
Apr 04 14:29:59 <Kensan> *heh*
Apr 04 14:30:19 <Dave> Kensan!
Apr 04 14:30:25 * Kensan waves
Apr 04 14:30:29 <Kensan> Hi Dave
Apr 04 14:30:36 <Dave> Greetings!
Apr 04 14:30:49 <Kensan> What's been going on around here the last couple of months?
Apr 04 14:30:56 <Kensan> Haven't had time to check in lately...
Apr 04 14:31:05 <DocScrutinizer> wow Kensan :-))
Apr 04 14:31:13 <Kensan> Even missed Openexpo this week :(
Apr 04 14:31:21 <Kensan> Hey DocScrutinizer, how are you?
Apr 04 14:31:37 <DocScrutinizer> well, always ups and downs
Apr 04 14:31:43 <DocScrutinizer> ;)
Apr 04 14:31:49 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: I see, so the usual :)
Apr 04 14:32:01 <DocScrutinizer> Dave says my humor improved - loool
Apr 04 14:32:14 <DocScrutinizer> never had any
Apr 04 14:32:22 <quatrox> lol
Apr 04 14:32:26 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: hm... I wonder if that's a compliment considering it's from Dave...
Apr 04 14:32:34 <DocScrutinizer> hehehe
Apr 04 14:33:21 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: you didn't miss anything pleasant on openexpo I'd say
Apr 04 14:33:30 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 14:33:44 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: mkay, nothing interesting? You were there?
Apr 04 14:33:52 <DocScrutinizer> nope
Apr 04 14:33:58 * Dave looks for new soldering tips to buy for home
Apr 04 14:34:25 <DocScrutinizer> not there
Apr 04 14:34:34 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: ok. I usualy meet friends I haven't seen in some time at Openexpo so that was a pity.
Apr 04 14:34:38 <DocScrutinizer> just talking about ML and IRC
Apr 04 14:35:19 <DocScrutinizer> now it finally "leaked" OM isn't continuing GTA03
Apr 04 14:35:27 <Kensan> afaik Sean was supposed to give a talk?
Apr 04 14:35:38 <DocScrutinizer> that's the one :-/
Apr 04 14:35:47 <Dave> How could it NOT leak?
Apr 04 14:35:55 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: huh? So I missed that.
Apr 04 14:35:59 <Dave> I mean, deceiving the community... THAT'S A PADDLIN'
Apr 04 14:36:05 <Kensan> So GTA03 is all in the bin?
Apr 04 14:36:05 <DocScrutinizer> it didn't for ~20days ;)
Apr 04 14:36:17 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: I'd say yes
Apr 04 14:36:22 <Kensan> shame...
Apr 04 14:36:30 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, :x
Apr 04 14:36:33 <Kensan> business decision I assume
Apr 04 14:36:46 <Kensan> or are they working on something completely different now?
Apr 04 14:36:46 <dos1> but what is that mysterious device instead gta03?
Apr 04 14:36:48 * DocScrutinizer didn't like gta03 the way it was in the end
Apr 04 14:36:55 <Dave> BUSINESS AS USUAL THEN, for Openmoko ¬_¬
Apr 04 14:37:29 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: well as long as there's a successor to GTA02 I am fine with that.
Apr 04 14:37:30 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: dos1 : no competition or replacement to GTA03
Apr 04 14:37:44 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: there's not
Apr 04 14:37:44 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: yeah, that's what I thought.
Apr 04 14:37:57 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: so all in all Openmoko Inc. is wrapping up?
Apr 04 14:38:01 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: at least from OM Inc
Apr 04 14:38:02 <dos1> DocScrutinizer: they anounced something different
Apr 04 14:38:13 <dos1> DocScrutinizer: as "plan B"
Apr 04 14:38:28 <DocScrutinizer> dos1: *I* know about it ;-)
Apr 04 14:38:41 <Kensan> dos1: a 1:1 cardboard box model of the GTA03?
Apr 04 14:38:42 <dos1> DocScrutinizer: so what is plan B? :D
Apr 04 14:38:50 <Kensan> *heh* ok, that one was bad.
Apr 04 14:39:00 <DocScrutinizer> dos1: you won't probably consider to wait for that instead of buying a GTA02
Apr 04 14:39:01 <ptitjes> Sup3rkiddo: hello
Apr 04 14:39:16 <dos1> DocScrutinizer: *I have* GTA02
Apr 04 14:39:41 <dos1> GTA02v5 - from first batch
Apr 04 14:39:52 <DocScrutinizer> dos1: I mustn't say anything beyond that, it's NDA
Apr 04 14:40:38 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: other question: who is responsible for kernel stuff these days? I heard Andy left.
Apr 04 14:40:50 <Dave> PLAN9?
Apr 04 14:40:54 <DocScrutinizer> but I may say it seems OM sacked all his GSM and linux competence
Apr 04 14:40:55 <raster> it has nothing to do with phones or linux. its not relevant to gta03 - it's not replacing it (if it was just a better gta03, gta03 design would just be changed, not cancelled)
Apr 04 14:41:07 <raster> there is no point speculating on it
Apr 04 14:41:15 <Kensan> raster: oh hi man.
Apr 04 14:41:21 <Kensan> raster: long time no see/talk
Apr 04 14:41:24 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: (kernel) first werner was, now it's nelson I've been told
Apr 04 14:41:28 <raster> (unless of course you are an openmoko fanboy and just want to buy anything openmoko makes :))
Apr 04 14:41:29 <dos1> Linux?
Apr 04 14:41:37 <Dave> hahaha
Apr 04 14:41:41 <Dave> worse than apple
Apr 04 14:41:44 <raster> it has nothing to do with phones or linux
Apr 04 14:41:48 <dos1> oh...
Apr 04 14:41:55 <raster> Kensan:  hey
Apr 04 14:42:01 <dos1> so i'm happy i bought GTA02 :P
Apr 04 14:42:09 <Kensan> raster: they should put up a "Buy the next thing"-Button in the webshop
Apr 04 14:42:29 <Kensan> raster: so phones et al. are off the chart at OM then?
Apr 04 14:42:31 <DocScrutinizer> well IT'S A TOASTER ;-D
Apr 04 14:42:38 <DocScrutinizer> ooops
Apr 04 14:42:57 <raster> so buy a gta02 if u want an open phone - dont hold your breath for gta03, or get behind support for someone else to do an open phone to succeed gta02
Apr 04 14:43:01 <dos1> Toaster? Fine. But why without Linux? :x
Apr 04 14:43:03 * raster winks @ DocScrutinizer 
Apr 04 14:43:05 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: The obligatory: yeah, but does it run Linux?
Apr 04 14:43:14 * DocScrutinizer waves back
Apr 04 14:43:26 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: nope
Apr 04 14:43:54 <morphis> What the next product from openmoko will not run any linux version?
Apr 04 14:43:58 <raster> dos1:  ask om that q. or wait for the device
Apr 04 14:44:17 <Kensan> raster: how's it going for you?
Apr 04 14:44:18 <DocScrutinizer> there's more FOSS OS out there than just linux, and as I got it it's not exactly linux. but I'm not an expert ;-)
Apr 04 14:44:20 <raster> morphis:  they just ditched all their linux staff
Apr 04 14:44:23 <raster> what do u think?
Apr 04 14:44:30 <raster> (or almost all)
Apr 04 14:44:49 <dos1> i would really enjoy toaster with linux on it
Apr 04 14:44:50 <dos1> ;D
Apr 04 14:44:54 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: sure, I was just trying to imitate some random douchbag from /.
Apr 04 14:44:57 <raster> Kensan:  going ok :)
Apr 04 14:45:01 <morphis> they are scheduled to death ...
Apr 04 14:45:02 <Dave> hahaha
Apr 04 14:45:09 <mrmoku> and if it then works also on the train... (toaster) :P
Apr 04 14:45:12 <Dave> uh oh
Apr 04 14:45:15 <quatrox> raster: will it run some kind of software?
Apr 04 14:45:15 <Dave> AND HE'S GERMAN!!
Apr 04 14:45:38 <Kensan> raster: any plans to swing by in Switzerland or is your work with Swisscom done?
Apr 04 14:45:45 <raster> quatrox:  is there anyhting electronic that doesnt run some kind of software? (even toasters do!.. wel some of them!)
Apr 04 14:45:50 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: if you attach a fullsize usb-kbd ;-)
Apr 04 14:45:54 <dos1> mrmoku: of course... programming in train isn't possible when you are hungry ;)
Apr 04 14:46:01 <raster> Kensan: yes. i was hoping to pop by bern in may
Apr 04 14:46:11 <Kensan> raster: cool.
Apr 04 14:46:15 <mrmoku> dos1: to engrave some nice text onto the toast... nice idea :-)
Apr 04 14:46:49 <Kensan> raster: meeting Thomas and the gang I assume.
Apr 04 14:46:51 <Kensan> ;)
Apr 04 14:46:59 <Dave> THE GANG!
Apr 04 14:47:02 <Dave> Bring the gang ;)
Apr 04 14:47:04 <raster> Kensan:  well i have pinged thomas... need to see
Apr 04 14:47:54 <Kensan> raster: ah so the Swisscom project is not the motivation to visit wonderfull Berne?
Apr 04 14:47:58 <Kensan> ;)
Apr 04 14:47:58 <DocScrutinizer> raster: hope we'll meet anyway for a few days to talk future :-)
Apr 04 14:48:01 <raster> Kensan:  no.
Apr 04 14:48:09 <raster> Kensan: coming to fsoshrcon
Apr 04 14:48:18 <raster> but since i am travelling 20,000km...
Apr 04 14:48:19 <Kensan> raster: is that in Bern?
Apr 04 14:48:27 <raster> i maight as well do a few things while i'm there
Apr 04 14:48:29 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: essen
Apr 04 14:48:36 <Kensan> ah I see
Apr 04 14:48:37 <DocScrutinizer> err Essen
Apr 04 14:48:53 <raster> DocScrutinizer: yes. priority i think is how to get some funding.
Apr 04 14:49:09 <Kensan> raster: let Swisscom pay for the fligt.
Apr 04 14:49:11 <Kensan> h
Apr 04 14:49:15 <raster> DocScrutinizer: i will look inot a plan b - interim that might work on lower funding.
Apr 04 14:49:17 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 14:49:21 <DocScrutinizer> sure. Much confusion building up in beyond it seems
Apr 04 14:49:33 <raster> Kensan: no.. that's not fair.
Apr 04 14:49:45 * quatrox thinks the new device is a led light with a 7 segment display
Apr 04 14:49:45 <Kensan> raster: haha
Apr 04 14:50:27 <raster> but i want to get swisscom on board with rescue plans
Apr 04 14:50:29 * Dave grumbles about satellites
Apr 04 14:50:36 <raster> rescue as in - provide a next-gen open phone that is "good"
Apr 04 14:50:54 <DocScrutinizer> on my last TPE visit I created a nightlight of a 6400-protoboard showing a whitescreen - -think of it ;-)
Apr 04 14:51:08 <Dave> go raster go!
Apr 04 14:51:12 <Kensan> raster: hm... do you think Thomas' group draws that much power inside the company? I wouldn't get my hopes up.
Apr 04 14:51:26 <Dave> Doc, the WSOD Nightlight?
Apr 04 14:51:31 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Apr 04 14:51:34 <Dave> What are you trying to do? Terrorize kids?
Apr 04 14:51:35 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 14:52:05 <DocScrutinizer> laforge might have some photos of this fancy iirc
Apr 04 14:52:13 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 14:52:27 <Dave> I need to go out and purchase some new tips today :|
Apr 04 14:52:43 <eolson> if project b is the blurred out thing in Sean's slides, it looks like a larger lcd with buttons on the bottom.
Apr 04 14:52:59 <raster> Kensan: i dont know (well i may - but i cant talk about many things - so i wont)
Apr 04 14:53:09 <eolson> but who cares, i want to buy raster's phone someday :)
Apr 04 14:53:18 <Dave> Rasterphone!
Apr 04 14:53:20 <Kensan> raster: well it's worth a shot of course but with the current economic situation and all I don't think Swisscom will try many more experiments...
Apr 04 14:53:21 <raster> all i know is they are interested in such a thing - thus one of several possible allies
Apr 04 14:53:23 <Dave> the rPhone!
Apr 04 14:53:28 <eolson> Dave, !
Apr 04 14:53:34 <Dave> eolson :D
Apr 04 14:53:35 <raster> eolson: i'd love to to.. the problem really right now is.. money
Apr 04 14:53:41 <raster> prototype is possible
Apr 04 14:53:44 <quatrox> eolson: it is
Apr 04 14:53:44 <raster> a raw proto
Apr 04 14:53:50 * Dave dumps funding in raster's lap
Apr 04 14:53:55 <raster> but going from that to production is currently missign any kind of funds
Apr 04 14:53:58 <raster> and thats expensive4
Apr 04 14:53:59 <Kensan> raster: maybe you want to work together with the Openpandora guys?
Apr 04 14:54:03 <eolson> raster, of course, it takes time --  you have a little time now that openmoko isn't competing with you
Apr 04 14:54:08 <raster> Kensan: unlikely :(
Apr 04 14:54:12 <quatrox> each button choose the light colour
Apr 04 14:54:13 <Dave> failure
Apr 04 14:54:14 <raster> Kensan:  i have tried a few times
Apr 04 14:54:19 <Kensan> raster: oh ok...
Apr 04 14:54:22 <raster> they are having enough problems of their own
Apr 04 14:54:31 <Kensan> raster: yeah read/heard that.
Apr 04 14:54:40 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: EX-om-guys ;-)
Apr 04 14:54:54 <raster> eolson:  that doesnt make much of a difference...
Apr 04 14:55:01 <eolson> raster, maybe open funding somehow?  cofundos?  down payments, stock shares (you mentioned that before), etc.
Apr 04 14:55:05 <Dave> hot
Apr 04 14:55:23 <raster> eolson: your'e talking $millions in funding
Apr 04 14:55:23 <Kensan> eolson: I takes a lot of money for such a thing to be sustainable...
Apr 04 14:55:24 <Dave> rastershares?
Apr 04 14:55:34 <Dave> monopoly money?
Apr 04 14:55:37 <raster> thats not the kind of money u get from there
Apr 04 14:55:45 <Dave> that's pretty close to openmoko money at this point :P
Apr 04 14:55:46 <Kensan> raster: hard to get funding in such times as these...
Apr 04 14:55:52 <raster> and shares would imply investors - ie vc's etc.
Apr 04 14:56:09 <raster> and sure - get vc's to give us the time of day... 
Apr 04 14:56:27 <raster> the problem there is they just wont even talk to you unless they know you or are introduced by someone they know
Apr 04 14:56:33 <raster> the "who you know" circle
Apr 04 14:56:36 <raster> not "what you know"
Apr 04 14:56:37 <Kensan> raster: how about you ask for a bailout 
Apr 04 14:56:39 <Kensan> *hahaha*
Apr 04 14:56:41 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 14:56:42 <raster> hahaha
Apr 04 14:56:53 <Kensan> raster: a gazillion in no-time!
Apr 04 14:57:13 <Dave> I know a few people who are terrible engineers, but put great stuff together, because they know people with big pockets who like them (and who works under or with them)
Apr 04 14:57:17 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 14:57:30 <eolson> raster, hmm, down payments, i'm in for $1-$5 a month, now you just need another 40,000 people :)
Apr 04 14:57:39 <raster> HAHAHAHAH
Apr 04 14:57:46 <Dave> raster - it's how asia works! (the problem there is they just wont even talk to you unless they know you or are introduced by someone they know)
Apr 04 14:58:02 <raster> i know
Apr 04 14:58:09 <DocScrutinizer> eolson: bring those ther 40k!
Apr 04 14:58:10 <raster> thus... trying to find a lucky break
Apr 04 14:58:15 <DocScrutinizer> other
Apr 04 14:58:15 <Dave> Aww
Apr 04 14:58:17 * Dave hugs Raster
Apr 04 14:58:38 <Kensan> raster: what would be a likely partner or funding company?
Apr 04 14:58:52 <Dave> Nokia?
Apr 04 14:58:54 * DocScrutinizer kicks dave. jrphone!
Apr 04 14:58:59 <raster> chances are a sonsortium of possible customers/clients
Apr 04 14:59:06 <raster> or manufacutrers/vendors
Apr 04 14:59:07 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 14:59:13 <eolson> DocScrutinizer, ok, I can mostly write software, so I'll write some marketing AI and send you the 40k people :)
Apr 04 14:59:15 <Dave> sweet
Apr 04 14:59:18 <Dave> where do I sign up?
Apr 04 14:59:32 <raster> either that or  vultrue capitalists with a taste for the interesting
Apr 04 14:59:32 <Dave> *cough* bots *cough*
Apr 04 14:59:35 <Dave> eolson ¬_¬
Apr 04 14:59:35 <Kensan> raster: how about a company that could extend it's current business model through bringig it's own piece of hardware to the marke?
Apr 04 14:59:41 <Kensan> like Amazon did with the kindle
Apr 04 15:00:01 <raster> Kensan: sure...
Apr 04 15:00:04 <raster> but who?
Apr 04 15:00:11 <Kensan> raster: well my question exactly *haha*
Apr 04 15:00:15 <DocScrutinizer> yup, *only* we need to find
Apr 04 15:00:24 <eolson> Dave, bots are ok as long as they seem human :)
Apr 04 15:00:35 <Kensan> raster: must be rather big corp I guess otherwise it doesn't make sense.
Apr 04 15:00:40 <DocScrutinizer> eolson: and have money ;-)
Apr 04 15:00:48 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 15:00:51 <Dave> and have money?
Apr 04 15:00:54 <Dave> Joerg :D
Apr 04 15:01:03 <eolson> DocScrutinizer, oh yeah :) maybe the stock market program is a better idea
Apr 04 15:01:07 <DocScrutinizer> the bots, dave
Apr 04 15:01:20 <Dave> they probably just steal from the user's bankaccounts
Apr 04 15:01:28 <Dave> but hey, we already did that to ourselves over here :D
Apr 04 15:01:42 <Dave> who would notice a few missing millions? among the untold billions lost...
Apr 04 15:01:45 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 15:01:48 <Kensan> now that the banking secrecy is gone almost everywhere we could open up the bank with the ultimate banking secrecy
Apr 04 15:01:59 <eolson> Dave, just think, we're loosing money every minute!
Apr 04 15:02:00 * DocScrutinizer is starting to develop a plan... :D
Apr 04 15:02:02 <Kensan> customer brings money and when he comes back nobody knows anything about it.
Apr 04 15:02:07 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 15:02:17 <Dave> MASTER PLAN!
Apr 04 15:02:19 <Dave> (evil)
Apr 04 15:03:02 <Kensan> raster: come to think of it, telcos might not be so far off after all
Apr 04 15:03:04 <DocScrutinizer> Kensan: offer some really attractive offer for updating the banks' COBOL-software XD
Apr 04 15:03:22 * dos1 is deleting Vista from laptop which he won yesteday :D
Apr 04 15:03:41 <DocScrutinizer> won a laptop?
Apr 04 15:03:45 <DocScrutinizer> heh
Apr 04 15:03:54 <Kensan> raster: I don't think telcos like to make such deals as they are doing with apple since they have to pay a lot more to some other company than they used to.
Apr 04 15:04:11 <Kensan> raster: so they could get back some of that by doing some hardware of their own.
Apr 04 15:04:20 <Dave> Dos1, won something?
Apr 04 15:05:01 <Kensan> dos1: scrubb the harddisk over the weekend, just for good measure.
Apr 04 15:05:52 <dos1> DocScrutinizer, Dave: it was polish informatic competition (ogólnopolski konkurs informatyczny) for high school students
Apr 04 15:06:06 <dos1> Kensan: scrubb?
Apr 04 15:06:16 <Dave> hahahaha
Apr 04 15:06:18 <dos1> :D
Apr 04 15:06:33 <dos1> Dave: i was suprised - it was so easy
Apr 04 15:06:33 <Dave> ik had het kunnen weten
Apr 04 15:06:36 <raster> Kensan:  telcos also mostly dont like open phones
Apr 04 15:06:38 <Dave> -_-
Apr 04 15:06:44 <raster> that allows customers to  get out of lock-in
Apr 04 15:06:46 <eolson> raster, the cool thing is, you almost have a phone stack (with some fso additions to support your modem)... hmm, but the hardware side is really expensive.
Apr 04 15:06:47 <Dave> dos1, well SURELY it wasn't a design competition!
Apr 04 15:06:50 <Dave> ¬_¬
Apr 04 15:06:53 <Kensan> raster: yeah true.
Apr 04 15:06:56 <raster> you have to find a very special telco...
Apr 04 15:07:01 <dos1> Dave: why? :>
Apr 04 15:07:07 <Dave> You would have surely failed that!
Apr 04 15:07:07 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 15:07:12 <raster> eolson:  yeah.. but software is the easy bit.. for us.. anway
Apr 04 15:07:19 <eolson> raster, yeah, good poitn
Apr 04 15:07:23 <raster> eolson:  the problem is we dont have any good mechanical/stacking guys atm
Apr 04 15:07:25 <Kensan> raster: from the outside: swisscom is not it I am afraid. But I might be wrong...
Apr 04 15:07:26 <dos1> Dave: yes, i think the same... but why you think that? :D
Apr 04 15:07:33 <Dave> ¬_¬
Apr 04 15:07:39 <raster> and really miss a lot of the "take a board design/proto into production" knowledge
Apr 04 15:07:44 <raster> thus u have to buy that (pay for it)
Apr 04 15:07:58 <Dave> Well, let's just say, many find your designs to be... rather peculiar... or design ideas questionable.
Apr 04 15:07:58 <raster> and even then.. you still need small mountains of $ just to buy components
Apr 04 15:08:05 <raster> to get a production line setup
Apr 04 15:08:07 <raster> testing rigs
Apr 04 15:08:12 <raster> other logisitcs
Apr 04 15:08:13 <dos1> Dave: which my designs?
Apr 04 15:08:15 <raster> certification...
Apr 04 15:08:19 <Dave> hahaha
Apr 04 15:08:22 <Dave> ALL OF THEM!
Apr 04 15:08:23 <Kensan> raster: yeah, it's some serious cash.
Apr 04 15:08:23 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 15:08:24 <eolson> raster, ok, lots of money needed there, sheesh
Apr 04 15:08:26 <dos1> :DDD
Apr 04 15:08:34 <raster> software can be created for $0
Apr 04 15:08:36 <raster> just time
Apr 04 15:08:40 <raster> (if you have it)
Apr 04 15:08:41 <raster> not hardware
Apr 04 15:08:55 <Kensan> raster: how about japanese telcos? ntt etc they run their own little show anyways.
Apr 04 15:08:58 <Kensan> ;)
Apr 04 15:09:08 * eolson wonders where the linux hardware devs hangout
Apr 04 15:09:17 <Dave> yes
Apr 04 15:09:18 <dos1> Dave: do you think shr-settings? or what? 
Apr 04 15:09:24 <Dave> eolson, in my basement!
Apr 04 15:09:33 <eolson> Dave, you have kids!
Apr 04 15:09:42 <Dave> dos1, uggh - are you going to make me go through an enumerate all your designs?
Apr 04 15:09:50 <Dave> and then criticize them each :D
Apr 04 15:09:57 <Dave> eolson, omg where!?
Apr 04 15:10:03 <Kensan> Dave: are you the president of the Linux Hardware foundation? *hehe*
Apr 04 15:10:14 <raster> Kensan:  japanese telco land is the definition of closed.
Apr 04 15:10:25 <dos1> Dave: yes, cause i can't remind any of my other design presented to SHR or Openmoko community :D
Apr 04 15:10:28 <bumbl> Dave: you are not allowed to do that
Apr 04 15:10:31 <raster> Kensan:  in fact in japan LEGALLY you are breaking the law if u unlokc a phone
Apr 04 15:10:33 <eolson> Dave, riiiiight :)   (I thought you kept the ones you know about in your basement)
Apr 04 15:10:36 <raster> you can be arrested.
Apr 04 15:10:42 <bumbl> Austrians have a patent on people + basements
Apr 04 15:10:45 <raster> fined and more
Apr 04 15:10:56 <Dave> raster, then what's american telcos? :P
Apr 04 15:11:10 <Rakshasa> Hi. Can anyone help me with bitbake&libtool?
Apr 04 15:11:32 <raster> Dave: less "closed"
Apr 04 15:11:38 <Dave> hahaha
Apr 04 15:11:42 <raster> seriously
Apr 04 15:11:43 <raster> less
Apr 04 15:11:50 <Dave> yeah, they're much more into tentacle rape here
Apr 04 15:11:52 * DocScrutinizer away for enjoying a nice afternoon (kinda first one this year)
Apr 04 15:11:58 <Kensan> raster: well then how about countries that try to lessen their dependency on "western industry" like Brazil, India China etc?
Apr 04 15:12:05 <Dave> Joerg, quick, stay away and enjoy... before you get sucked back in!
Apr 04 15:12:10 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer: now that it started raining?
Apr 04 15:12:13 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: enjoy the sun!
Apr 04 15:12:19 <Kensan> DocScrutinizer: as long as it lasts.
Apr 04 15:12:20 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: U know me! :)
Apr 04 15:12:26 <Dave> Yep ;)
Apr 04 15:12:36 <eolson> raster, do you think swisscom has any interest?
Apr 04 15:12:52 * DocScrutinizer considers closing lid of laptop
Apr 04 15:12:56 <Dave> YAY
Apr 04 15:13:03 <DocScrutinizer> gnaaah, away....
Apr 04 15:13:07 <Dave> And don't you take out that N810 :P
Apr 04 15:13:17 <Dave> I'll be watching :P
Apr 04 15:13:39 <DocScrutinizer> oops sorry, I did ;-)
Apr 04 15:13:43 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 15:14:19 <raster> Kensan: got contacts there? :)
Apr 04 15:14:46 <raster> eolson: swisscom have been really interested in openmoko and open phones
Apr 04 15:14:58 <raster> serious enouhg to pay devs to work on it and related stuff
Apr 04 15:15:07 <raster> where do u think elementary started?
Apr 04 15:15:15 <raster> you can thank swisscom
Apr 04 15:15:20 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 15:15:24 <raster> they get credits in the src
Apr 04 15:15:24 <Dave> and you too, raster :)
Apr 04 15:15:31 <Kensan> raster: well Harald has strong ties to India I believe and you most certainly know him :)
Apr 04 15:15:42 <Dave> Raster, where can we send donations?
Apr 04 15:15:52 <eolson> cool, I was wondering if they want to spend a lot more money on another phone :)
Apr 04 15:16:02 <raster> Kensan: it depends what u are doing.. but at least what iw anted to do would not result in a cheap phone
Apr 04 15:16:07 <raster> and places like india want cheap
Apr 04 15:16:17 <raster> it'd be quite pricey as it'd be the higher-end of tech
Apr 04 15:16:28 <raster> 3g hspa, omap3, etc. etc.
Apr 04 15:16:34 <Kensan> raster: yeah, that's for Thomas' group but the management/business side is more about getting to know what open phones mean and how they can "adapt" their business model to "defend" against it...
Apr 04 15:16:36 <eolson> raster, but it's expensive to enter the market at the top
Apr 04 15:16:42 <Dave> \o/
Apr 04 15:16:47 <Dave> heh, eten
Apr 04 15:16:58 <Kensan> raster: at least that's how I read it but I don't know anything about swisscom internals so I should probably shut up.
Apr 04 15:17:10 <Kensan> raster: I see.
Apr 04 15:17:39 <Kensan> raster: the chinese will suck out your knowhow and sell the copies instead anyway *g*
Apr 04 15:19:11 <eolson> but I don't really know anything about marketing, maybe it's easier to sell a high end product
Apr 04 15:19:16 <raster> Kensan:  is it really "defend" or to "maximise use"
Apr 04 15:19:33 <raster> again - i have talked a lot to them and i have an idea of where they stand
Apr 04 15:19:35 <raster> a pretyt good one
Apr 04 15:19:42 <raster> eolson: that depends
Apr 04 15:20:22 <raster> eolson: entering at the bottom means u are competing on price. and you can only compete on price if u can make millions fo devices - scale. if u are making small unit runs.. you will be expensive - even if you use cheap "old" components
Apr 04 15:20:27 <Kensan> raster: ok, then ignore my rants I am wildly speculating anyway :)
Apr 04 15:20:30 <raster> so try not to compete on price
Apr 04 15:20:44 <raster> compete on openness and really CATAER to your market
Apr 04 15:21:03 <raster> you are already doing low volume
Apr 04 15:21:03 <Kensan> raster: pricey but quality - sounds like a swiss company would go for that.
Apr 04 15:21:20 <raster> hehe
Apr 04 15:21:23 <raster> well thats kind fo my idea
Apr 04 15:21:29 <raster> do a "mercedes" of phones
Apr 04 15:21:34 <raster> not a "hyundai"
Apr 04 15:21:35 <Kensan> would be interesting to know if Swatch would be interested in such a thing...
Apr 04 15:21:40 <eolson> raster, makes sense
Apr 04 15:21:45 <raster> or more specifically
Apr 04 15:21:47 <raster> do a "tesla"
Apr 04 15:21:51 <Kensan> Swatch Group is huge and they have good leadership
Apr 04 15:21:52 <raster> do a really "niche" product
Apr 04 15:21:53 <eolson> raster, everybody likes have a cool phone :)
Apr 04 15:21:57 <raster> it will not be cheap
Apr 04 15:21:58 <Kensan> at least at the top
Apr 04 15:22:00 <raster> but boy will it be nice
Apr 04 15:22:08 <raster> you wont sell millions
Apr 04 15:22:10 <TAsn> hallo again.
Apr 04 15:22:16 <Kensan> raster: they would definitely have the funds.
Apr 04 15:22:25 <raster> but you will be selling something with no competition
Apr 04 15:22:28 <Kensan> raster: they have their own chip factories
Apr 04 15:22:33 <Kensan> raster: they know hardware
Apr 04 15:22:36 <raster> someone like.. a siwss telco
Apr 04 15:22:39 <raster> would love that
Apr 04 15:22:49 <raster> they can finally offer a phone to their customers no one else has
Apr 04 15:23:07 <raster> i'm more than happy to consider exlusive supply deals.. if the order quantity/price is right
Apr 04 15:23:12 <raster> but that is to be seen
Apr 04 15:23:17 <raster> it doesnt exist
Apr 04 15:23:25 <raster> and... until it does its all talk
Apr 04 15:23:29 <Kensan> raster: Swatch Group... would be interesting to see if they would catch on to that idea.
Apr 04 15:24:25 <Dave> Man, why does this always happen...
Apr 04 15:24:43 <raster> logitech
Apr 04 15:24:48 <raster> anyway
Apr 04 15:24:49 <raster> sleepies
Apr 04 15:24:56 <Kensan> raster: good night
Apr 04 15:24:57 <raster> its all pie in the sky .. ideas atm
Apr 04 15:24:58 <Dave> Raster, send me a mission proposal
Apr 04 15:25:06 <raster> without money to do it - its all paper fantasies
Apr 04 15:25:08 <Dave> Maybe I'll pass it by some people here
Apr 04 15:25:08 <eolson> raster, dream of prototypes :)
Apr 04 15:25:15 <Kensan> raster: seriously, Swatch could be interesting if you ever get a chance ;)
Apr 04 15:25:16 <Dave> dream of electric sheep :)
Apr 04 15:25:20 <Kensan> raster: or meet anyone
Apr 04 15:25:30 <raster> Dave: with what purpose in mind - investors?
Apr 04 15:25:39 <Dave> yes
Apr 04 15:25:51 * DocScrutinizer wants a tesla
Apr 04 15:25:51 <Dave> I have some connections ;)
Apr 04 15:26:00 <Dave> Joerg, didn't I tell you to get out of here! :P
Apr 04 15:26:00 <raster> Kensan: well one of my reasons to come by .ch is to see if i cant get some seroius balls rolling
Apr 04 15:26:02 <raster> so lets see
Apr 04 15:26:06 <eolson> raster, Dave's company will be them all (he has hundreds of freerunners)
Apr 04 15:26:07 * DocScrutinizer ducks
Apr 04 15:26:09 <Kensan> raster: awesome :)
Apr 04 15:26:11 * DocScrutinizer hides
Apr 04 15:26:14 <Dave> haha
Apr 04 15:26:20 <raster> Dave:  sure. sleep now. i'll do another writeup tomorrow. i already did a draft biz plan
Apr 04 15:26:30 * eolson wants a tesla too
Apr 04 15:27:00 <quatrox> raster: telenor.com could maybe be interested
Apr 04 15:27:34 <Dave> Alright, cool!
Apr 04 15:27:37 <quatrox> they had an open source thing some time ago (pats)
Apr 04 15:27:44 * Dave arcs quatrox
Apr 04 15:28:30 <quatrox> raster: trolltech was one of the sponsors
Apr 04 15:28:39 <Dave> hahaha, wow, I get 200ms response times from freerunner to PC... (over USB)
Apr 04 15:28:53 <Dave> something must be wrong :D
Apr 04 15:28:58 <quatrox> Dave: awesome
Apr 04 15:29:05 <Dave> mice eating my cable, omg!
Apr 04 15:29:14 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: that's because me sitting in between ;-)
Apr 04 15:29:15 <quatrox> i get 0 responce
Apr 04 15:29:20 <Dave> Joerg hahahaha ;D
Apr 04 15:29:28 <TAsn> raster, I made it automatically on when fribidi is present (autotools...) anything more needed?
Apr 04 15:29:42 <Dave> Tasn, let the poor man sleep :)
Apr 04 15:30:00 <raster> quatrox: that could be interesting...
Apr 04 15:30:04 <TAsn> Dave, I'm up for 35 hrs
Apr 04 15:30:10 <quatrox> (my neo is off 5 days downtime to remember gta03)
Apr 04 15:30:11 <TAsn> I want to rest a bit as well ;]
Apr 04 15:30:14 <Dave> I can see :D
Apr 04 15:30:17 <raster> quatrox:  thanks.. that may be help[ful
Apr 04 15:30:18 <DocScrutinizer> it's 02:30 in Sydney
Apr 04 15:30:23 <Dave> aww
Apr 04 15:30:32 <Dave> meh
Apr 04 15:30:34 <raster> TAsn:  awesome!
Apr 04 15:30:48 <raster> TAsn: umm. for now, hold your patch. i need to sleep
Apr 04 15:30:49 <raster> 2:30am
Apr 04 15:30:55 <raster> need sleeps...
Apr 04 15:31:05 <TAsn> go ahead.
Apr 04 15:31:13 <TAsn> I'll send it tomorrow, no hurry.
Apr 04 15:31:15 * Dave needs usb networking working again
Apr 04 15:31:19 <Dave> haha net-working...
Apr 04 15:31:23 <Dave> more like netnotworking
Apr 04 15:31:25 <TAsn> I have it made, and I released the ipk to israeli friends ;]
Apr 04 15:31:28 <quatrox> raster: mail anne-marte@telenor.com
Apr 04 15:31:39 <Dave> Tasn, you're so popular!
Apr 04 15:31:42 <DocScrutinizer> nötworking
Apr 04 15:31:42 <Dave> quatrox :]
Apr 04 15:31:46 <Dave> ja
Apr 04 15:31:54 <TAsn> Dave, not half as much as you are. ;]
Apr 04 15:31:55 <raster> quatrox: will tomorrow
Apr 04 15:31:56 <raster> ok
Apr 04 15:31:58 <raster> snoozes!
Apr 04 15:32:00 <raster> tnx!
Apr 04 15:32:00 <Dave> ;D
Apr 04 15:32:36 <TAsn> raster, night.
Apr 04 15:32:39 <Dave> snakkes
Apr 04 15:33:13 <quatrox> raster: not sure if she still work for that project
Apr 04 15:33:38 <DocScrutinizer> [2009-04-04 17:31:58] <raster> snoozes!
Apr 04 15:33:52 * DocScrutinizer away
Apr 04 15:33:55 <DocScrutinizer> :)
Apr 04 15:33:58 * Dave hits Joerg's snooze
Apr 04 15:34:13 <quatrox> Dave :D
Apr 04 15:35:17 <Dave> omg... fugly... http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/8cdbf22ffc0d0b15aab4ec022fd4f7f2.png
Apr 04 15:35:24 <Dave> For all I know, this is more of YOUR doing, dos1!
Apr 04 15:35:50 <Dave> though, if it was, you would have probably made it transparent too ¬_¬
Apr 04 15:37:38 <Dave> Well, it's 4:00 ... in whatever timezone my freerunner's in :p
Apr 04 15:42:29 <dos1> Dave: i don't have transparency enabled, it was only for test :D
Apr 04 15:42:53 <dos1> i wanted to experience, how slower it is with transparency enabled
Apr 04 15:43:22 <dos1> and to intrigate some people wathing scap :P
Apr 04 15:43:27 <dos1> s/wathing/watching/
Apr 04 15:43:28 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: and to intrigate some people watching scap :P
Apr 04 15:46:17 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 15:46:37 <Dave> dos1 meant: and to infuriate some people watching scap
Apr 04 15:46:54 <mrmoku> dos1: people like.... DAVE? :P
Apr 04 15:47:00 <Dave> :O
Apr 04 15:47:25 <dos1> mrmoku: exactly :D
Apr 04 15:48:41 <mrmoku> dos1: btw... how do you enable transparency?
Apr 04 15:48:48 <Dave> DONT
Apr 04 15:48:52 <Dave> IT'S A TRAP!
Apr 04 15:49:08 <mrmoku> dos1: +extension Composite ?
Apr 04 15:49:24 <TAsn> weird, I'm adding package names to the depends list in my bb though nothing happens. any ideas?
Apr 04 15:49:42 <mrmoku> TAsn: -c clean ?
Apr 04 15:49:49 <TAsn> tried that.
Apr 04 15:50:01 <mrmoku> TAsn: might have to bump the PR then?
Apr 04 15:50:15 <TAsn> sounds reasonable
Apr 04 15:50:19 * mrmoku had that with the toolchain...
Apr 04 15:50:25 <mrmoku> (building)
Apr 04 15:50:47 <TAsn> I had that when istalling stuff on moko
Apr 04 15:50:49 <TAsn> not when compiling.
Apr 04 15:51:59 <TAsn> nope
Apr 04 15:52:01 <TAsn> nothing.
Apr 04 15:52:29 <Deubeuliou> after upgrading to shr unstable, I can't ssh anymore
Apr 04 15:52:37 <Deubeuliou> the interface doesn't come up
Apr 04 15:53:27 <mrmoku> Deubeuliou: upgrading broke module deps for me... open a terminal and do 'depmod -a'
Apr 04 15:53:35 <mrmoku> after that reboot and it should work
Apr 04 15:53:48 <Deubeuliou> hehe, I have no icon too
Apr 04 15:54:16 <Deubeuliou> I only can open the keybord, and the illume dock
Apr 04 15:54:18 <mrmoku> Deubeuliou: ouch... you upgraded from testing?
Apr 04 15:54:22 <Deubeuliou> yes
Apr 04 15:54:49 <mrmoku> hmm... the only creative idea I could have... bind the terminal to the AUX key ;)
Apr 04 15:55:18 <mrmoku> reflashing might be faster in the end...
Apr 04 15:55:23 <Deubeuliou> E doesn't have a shortcut ?
Apr 04 15:55:38 <mrmoku> ?
Apr 04 15:55:52 <Deubeuliou> I mean, like Alt+F2 on gnome
Apr 04 15:56:16 <mrmoku> Illume no, not that I would know of
Apr 04 15:56:20 <Dave> usb nötworking
Apr 04 15:57:19 <dos1> mrmoku: i have +extension Composite enabled all the time
Apr 04 15:57:42 <dos1> mrmoku: but for transparency you have to use compositing window manager - like xcompmgr
Apr 04 15:58:24 <Deubeuliou> ok.. on my way to reflash :(
Apr 04 15:58:31 <mrmoku> dos1: ahh... and then turn it on via illume settings? Or does that not matter...
Apr 04 15:58:32 <Dave> dos1, stop spreading evil!
Apr 04 15:58:46 <Deubeuliou> idea for next: binding trem to AUX long-press
Apr 04 15:59:35 <mrmoku> dos1: hmm... looks like we don't have that (xcompmgr) in the shr repos...
Apr 04 16:00:08 <dos1> mrmoku: that doesn't matter - i wasn't able to turn on composite in illume
Apr 04 16:00:19 <dos1> that checkbox doesn't do anything...
Apr 04 16:00:33 <mrmoku> apart from warning you that composite is disabled :P
Apr 04 16:00:55 <dos1> yep
Apr 04 16:02:46 <Dave> beep beep beep beep......................
Apr 04 16:03:07 <Deubeuliou> if I turn bluetooth on, is there a way to ssh in ?
Apr 04 16:03:18 <Dave> o.O
Apr 04 16:03:19 <mrmoku> dos1: how do you start xcompmgr... in a xsession script?
Apr 04 16:03:28 <dos1> in terminal
Apr 04 16:03:34 <mrmoku> :-)
Apr 04 16:03:55 <dos1> you can start it in xsession
Apr 04 16:03:59 <dos1> but i don't want to have it started on each boot
Apr 04 16:04:05 <mrmoku> Deubeuliou: you would need to pair it (which might be difficult without terminal ;)
Apr 04 16:04:30 <mrmoku> dos1: ok, thanks
Apr 04 16:05:28 <Deubeuliou> LOL: I added the "Start" icon to the illume panel. now, E is segfaulting in loop
Apr 04 16:05:42 <Deubeuliou> I'd better reflash ....
Apr 04 16:06:47 <mrmoku> Zorkman: upgrading from testing to unstable *WON'T* work :P
Apr 04 16:10:21 <mrmoku> dos1: hmm... and for transparent qwo you need the patched version :(
Apr 04 16:11:04 <dos1> patched illume
Apr 04 16:11:30 <mrmoku> yep... patched illume
Apr 04 16:11:59 <Q-Master> what about transparent original illume keyboard?
Apr 04 16:12:03 <mrmoku> btw. after starting xcompmgr you can turn the checker (illume config) on and it won't complain
Apr 04 16:13:01 <dos1> mrmoku: but it doesn't do anything then
Apr 04 16:13:18 <mrmoku> :-)
Apr 04 16:13:23 <dos1> Q-Master: you need patched illume... as behind transparent keyboard you'll see only launcher icons :P
Apr 04 16:14:29 * mrmoku will live without transparent keyboard for the next two weeks then...
Apr 04 16:14:47 * DocScrutinizer is pondering about NDA and plan-B device. Goes like this:
Apr 04 16:14:55 * DocScrutinizer "If I tell it's a toaster powered by linux with MP-kernel, nobody will believe I'm breaking the NDA in such a violent way. So everybody knowing me also knows it's *no* toaster. If it's no toaster actually, that's a NDA violation. So - as it's not Apr 1. today - the only thing I may disclose about planB is the mere truth, as this won't be accepted by anybody.
Apr 04 16:15:12 <DocScrutinizer> /me but then OTOH community migt think the same..."
Apr 04 16:15:13 <DocScrutinizer> /me is buying Aspirin-shares ;-D
Apr 04 16:17:14 <dos1> is telling wrong informations NDA violation?
Apr 04 16:17:33 <Q-Master> dos1: funny. 8)
Apr 04 16:18:01 <DocScrutinizer> you know it's NO toaster, that's a detail about NDA'd issue ;)
Apr 04 16:18:38 <DocScrutinizer> if you know it's wrong info, that is :D
Apr 04 16:19:24 <DocScrutinizer> dos1: like some Aspirin?   XD
Apr 04 16:19:46 <mirko|lunch> DocScrutinizer: i think in under NDA you are not allowed to hand out information that might be used to harm the company or disclose secrets, I believe in the current situation, acknowledging that OM's Plan B is not a toaster might be a good thing
Apr 04 16:20:02 <dos1> DocScrutinizer: but if we don't know? we can only guess... ;)
Apr 04 16:20:36 <dos1> so if it's a toaster
Apr 04 16:20:48 <dos1> saying "it's not toaster" is nda violation? ;>
Apr 04 16:20:54 <DocScrutinizer> mirko: don't spoil my secret plan to make a fortune on aspirin-stocks ;)
Apr 04 16:21:13 <dos1> so it is toaster?!?! :o
Apr 04 16:21:42 <mirko|lunch> dos1: sure the campaign reads: Free people, free bread
Apr 04 16:26:26 * dos1 has bluetooth in new laptop
Apr 04 16:26:27 <DocScrutinizer> mirko|lunch: wait, you're actually not able to spoil this plan ;D even my telling there is a secret aspirin-plan will *help* in the end XD
Apr 04 16:26:36 <dos1> do you know what does it mean for shr-settings? ;)
Apr 04 16:27:27 * mrmoku wonders if DocScrutinizer wants to make everybody in here to start thinking in circles until they get a really bad headache and need some Aspirin :P
Apr 04 16:28:06 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: isn't it a good plan?
Apr 04 16:28:17 <dos1> so that is aspirin plan, but spoiling it help with doing it? :D
Apr 04 16:28:26 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer: if you already have your stock of aspirin shares... yeah :-)
Apr 04 16:28:34 <mrmoku> if not... you might come late
Apr 04 16:28:58 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: I learnt this during my time at OM ;)
Apr 04 16:29:36 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer: so... all of you had headache quite frequently?
Apr 04 16:29:51 <mrmoku> enduring headache?
Apr 04 16:30:03 <DocScrutinizer> a lot of, yeah
Apr 04 16:32:44 <DocScrutinizer> dos1: you see, don't you?
Apr 04 16:33:17 <DocScrutinizer> dos1: just another circle XD
Apr 04 16:33:49 <dos1> DocScrutinizer: telling me that there is another circle can be another circle...
Apr 04 16:34:17 <DocScrutinizer> plans seems to work :->
Apr 04 16:34:32 <dos1> ;]
Apr 04 16:35:57 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer: what will you do if all of us start to do Yoga instead of swallowing aspirines?
Apr 04 16:36:13 <mrmoku> you're doomed ;)
Apr 04 16:36:17 <dos1> no! it's another circle
Apr 04 16:36:30 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: I'll start to cry until next xmas
Apr 04 16:36:32 <dos1> DocScrutinizer and mrmoku want to earn money on teaching Yoga!
Apr 04 16:37:02 <onen> hi everyone
Apr 04 16:37:08 <DocScrutinizer> I'm living 1.floor of a yoga-studio ;-)
Apr 04 16:37:12 * mrmoku has no idea of yoga... but if somebody is wiling to pay :P
Apr 04 16:37:42 <DocScrutinizer> owner is my best friend's gf
Apr 04 16:38:26 <mrmoku> ahh... so aspirine is just a strawman to make your best friends gf earn money by having lots of new students?
Apr 04 16:38:42 <mrmoku> dos1: yeah..  I know ... another circle :P
Apr 04 16:39:01 <dos1> no
Apr 04 16:39:03 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Apr 04 16:39:03 <dos1> there is another
Apr 04 16:39:09 <dos1> now, when we know it
Apr 04 16:39:58 <dos1> he wants to give up with his girlfriend and that's why he is detering us from Yoga!
Apr 04 16:40:26 * DocScrutinizer is heading out to next caffee reading newspaper's stock ratings
Apr 04 16:40:27 <dos1> because now we don't want to learn Yoga
Apr 04 16:40:45 <dos1> but...
Apr 04 16:40:55 <dos1> who will earn money when we don't want to learn Yoga?
Apr 04 16:41:07 <dos1> or...
Apr 04 16:41:08 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 16:41:09 <dos1> maybe
Apr 04 16:41:40 <dos1> that was only plan for aspirin and headache ;)
Apr 04 16:45:31 <mrmoku> somebody should tell DocScrutinizer that the newspaper is old...
Apr 04 16:45:50 * mrmoku still no headache
Apr 04 16:46:08 <mrmoku> and off for dinner... to have enough energy for more circles :P
Apr 04 16:55:55 <Rakshasa> raster: If I have an Elementary pager in an inwin, how can I get everything pushed to the pager hide when I hide the Inwin?
Apr 04 16:56:53 <onen> mrmoku: don't know if you have uploaded your last days logs. but Nick told me the site should have taken it into account at 21:00
Apr 04 16:57:14 <onen> dent: Nick told me the site should have taken last logs into account at 21:00
Apr 04 16:57:42 <onen> mrmoku: dent: thus if you want to use the KML to visualize the coverage generated by your work :-) ...
Apr 04 16:58:51 * onen thinks a gta03 without WiFi and GPS should be called a gta0.3
Apr 04 17:02:29 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: does settings control 63 to "Mic 2" bypass the automatic gain control?
Apr 04 17:10:20 <mrmoku> onen: uploaded today something...
Apr 04 17:11:30 <dent> same here
Apr 04 17:13:52 <onen> mrmoku: dent: I will be out tonight, after 20:00
Apr 04 17:14:04 <Dave> NONE!
Apr 04 17:14:07 <Dave> ONEN!
Apr 04 17:14:14 <Dave> neon 
Apr 04 17:14:15 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 17:14:16 <mrmoku> NEON
Apr 04 17:14:19 <onen> mrmoku: dent: do not know if I will reconnect later (in case you have questions)
Apr 04 17:14:24 <Dave> mrmoku mrmoku
Apr 04 17:14:25 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 17:14:30 <Dave> onen, I got your package yesterday
Apr 04 17:14:35 <mrmoku> onen: well... upload went flawlessly
Apr 04 17:14:37 <Dave> but does it run on gtk? ;o
Apr 04 17:14:38 <onen> Dave: Vade (retro?)
Apr 04 17:14:42 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 17:14:51 <Dave> eDave =~ evade? :D
Apr 04 17:14:58 <mrmoku> onen: I will be away the next two weeks... logging gsm cells :P
Apr 04 17:15:19 <onen> mrmoku: please, help yourself :-)
Apr 04 17:15:20 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 17:15:22 <Dave> YES
Apr 04 17:15:24 <Dave> >:)
Apr 04 17:15:31 <Dave> SPREAD THE VIRUS!
Apr 04 17:15:37 <onen> mrmoku: that is the reason I wanted to check if evrything was fine for you before you leava :-)
Apr 04 17:15:58 <dent> onen: what happens if I have no GPS fix, but pres "Generate"... I guess no logs are created, right?
Apr 04 17:16:07 <mrmoku> onen: one thing... sometimes it shows no gsm cells... even when there is coverage
Apr 04 17:16:10 <onen> Dave: have to go eat
Apr 04 17:16:10 <mrmoku> normal?
Apr 04 17:16:25 <dent> mrmoku: same here
Apr 04 17:16:54 <onen> dent: the loop will ... well ... loops, but everytime abort the log because no valid GPS data available
Apr 04 17:17:23 <dent> onen: ok... just wanted to know it doesn't generate some junk that could poison the data :)
Apr 04 17:17:54 <Dave> bah
Apr 04 17:18:03 <Dave> come back later, so I can further harass you about your software :D
Apr 04 17:18:32 <onen> mrmoku: yeah I know that. I have to look at it. I consider data valid only when I am in mode 'registered" or 'roaming'. I think this times with nothing could be due to another status of the registration that I was not sure should be considered valid for logging
Apr 04 17:18:53 <mrmoku> onen: ok
Apr 04 17:19:39 <onen> dent: I really put a lot of attention on usability of the thing. I don't want to have to press N buttons, think about this or that
Apr 04 17:19:58 <onen> dent: so basically you press 'generate' and do not think about it
Apr 04 17:20:06 <onen> bbl
Apr 04 17:20:08 <dent> onen: great :)
Apr 04 17:22:10 <Dave> "Set it and Forget it!" (tm)
Apr 04 17:22:14 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 17:28:38 <Kensan> wow I just looked at Sean's slides from Openexpo
Apr 04 17:28:40 <Kensan> how sad
Apr 04 17:29:13 <Sup3rkiddo> Kensan, link?
Apr 04 17:30:16 <Kensan> Sup3rkiddo: http://www.openexpo.ch/fileadmin/documents/2009Bern/Slides/BusinessTrack/01_SeanMossPultz.pdf
Apr 04 17:30:51 <Sup3rkiddo> Kensan, thanks
Apr 04 17:31:54 <Zorkman> Sup3rkiddo, Kensan: there is also a video
Apr 04 17:32:12 <Sup3rkiddo> Zorkman, link? :D
Apr 04 17:32:12 <Kensan> great slides but if you know what this means for Openmoko/GTA02 not to mention GTA01 it does not do the community justice I think...
Apr 04 17:33:34 <Zorkman> Sup3rkiddo: http://techpulse360.com/2009/03/31/esc09-open-moko-is-the-anti-iphone-runs-google-android-but-still-no-3g/
Apr 04 17:37:40 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: basically yes. The main purpose of routing mic path throug one of both PGAs is to implement a kind of AEC and ALC in Wolfson. Anyway nobody cared about setting up the digital parts correctly, and in the end we don't want any mangeling of audio outside/prior to calypso's internal DSP which is designed to do exactly that
Apr 04 17:38:21 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: calypso also does ALC?
Apr 04 17:38:25 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: so setting 63 to "mic 2" is the clean way
Apr 04 17:39:44 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-:  tha's not entirely clear. What is nquestionable though is any ALC outside of calypso will spoil the noisereduction (basically a noisegate) to FUBAR. Echo cancellation as well probably
Apr 04 17:40:31 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: but wolfson can do noisegate too (if that means muting input when signal is really silent)
Apr 04 17:40:31 <DocScrutinizer> (inside calypso AT%Nxxx that is)
Apr 04 17:41:11 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 17:41:13 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: it can't do a decent AEC though
Apr 04 17:41:18 <Dave> Back for more, huh Joerg? ;)
Apr 04 17:41:24 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Apr 04 17:41:26 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 17:41:33 <DocScrutinizer> fitter than ever
Apr 04 17:41:43 <DocScrutinizer> :-) stocks look good 
Apr 04 17:42:59 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: basically we *could* do some ALC in wolfson, but that would need lots of decent calibration and effect is questionable. 
Apr 04 17:43:37 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: ok since now people complain that my phone does not do ALC :)
Apr 04 17:43:56 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: we even can do some echo suppression if we route mic to leftPGA and earpiece to rightPGA, but it's a botch basically
Apr 04 17:44:21 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: It never did
Apr 04 17:44:34 <DocScrutinizer> I guess
Apr 04 17:44:52 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: something did. when i did not say anything then it started to amplify the backgroun dnoise
Apr 04 17:45:00 <DocScrutinizer> besides whatever ALC is done inside calypso
Apr 04 17:45:32 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: that's been stopped by AT%Nxxx enabling noisegate
Apr 04 17:46:02 <DocScrutinizer> now that there is no more buzz, noisgate really starts to work propperly
Apr 04 17:46:41 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: too bad i can't configure ALC inside calypso in any way
Apr 04 17:46:48 <lindi-> with wolfson i would have very nice docs
Apr 04 17:47:07 <DocScrutinizer> that's exactly expected behaviour and has been spoiled by the idea of external ALC
Apr 04 17:47:11 <Rakshasa> evas_object_hide(<elementary pager>) does nothing?
Apr 04 17:48:03 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: it's setup for optimum performance for human speech by TI doing much R&D on this
Apr 04 17:48:34 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: anyway you may setup noisegate and echo cancellation by tweaking AT%Nxxx
Apr 04 17:48:45 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: AT%N187 is set yes
Apr 04 17:50:22 <TAsn> mrmoku, I figured that out!
Apr 04 17:51:33 <Dave> Who wants sandwiches? :D
Apr 04 17:52:25 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: if you're interested in some investigations on this topic, implementing a way to mess with AT%N on the fly (even during calls if that'll work at all) would be a great start
Apr 04 17:53:48 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: it's already done and works: mickeyterm
Apr 04 17:53:54 <lindi-> DocScrutinizer: it does not work during calls
Apr 04 17:53:58 <lindi-> afaik
Apr 04 17:54:00 <PaulFertser> lindi-: it works
Apr 04 17:54:26 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i tried it myself investigating the hardware reason of echo.
Apr 04 17:54:33 <lindi-> PaulFertser: ok
Apr 04 17:54:42 <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: I know, but I'm not surethis may or might not interfere with whatever framework is doing automatically
Apr 04 17:55:12 <DocScrutinizer> PaulFertser: tat's on topic of lindi's last stmnt
Apr 04 17:55:18 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: while you're in the middle of a call, framework doesn't send any %N commands. So that's perfectly safe.
Apr 04 17:55:38 <DocScrutinizer> ahh ok
Apr 04 17:56:07 <DocScrutinizer> my cncern was if DSP is reconfigured n the fly at all
Apr 04 17:56:24 <DocScrutinizer> if you say it works - - great
Apr 04 17:56:34 <DocScrutinizer> we're fine with mickeyterm then
Apr 04 17:56:49 <Dave> hooray
Apr 04 17:56:53 <Dave> pizzas
Apr 04 17:57:26 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: there were other reports about how sending %N in the middle of the call instantly eliminates echo (prior to introduction of send-on-every-call scheme in FSO).
Apr 04 17:57:26 <Dave> Oh nice, not only is it 6:20 wherever my freerunner is, it's gone back to Friday, 12 December 2008
Apr 04 17:57:46 <Dave> I must have accidentally tripped the time circuits last night when I was jumping it, Joerg :P
Apr 04 17:57:48 <onen> have to go
Apr 04 17:57:53 <DocScrutinizer> great, so it's even verified
Apr 04 17:58:34 <onen> mrmoku: do you have any question about the app? (don't know if you'll be there tomorrow...)
Apr 04 17:58:34 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: ;D
Apr 04 17:59:02 <Dave> onen, does it not run on gtk? :(
Apr 04 17:59:13 <onen> Dave: you won't harras me, I enjoy responding to enthusiasm :-)
Apr 04 17:59:14 <DocScrutinizer> onen: we'll see what we (err Dieter) can do wrt to TA :)
Apr 04 17:59:22 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 18:00:03 <onen> Dave: it does run on GTK? is it a pb? (by the way, I would now choose elementary, better suited to phones, I think)
Apr 04 18:01:03 <DocScrutinizer> onen: alas we got incomplete sources for this layer of GSM stack :/
Apr 04 18:01:03 <onen> DocScruntinizer: you mean with o2 (they are the only one to broadcast tower location), or youhave sth different in mind
Apr 04 18:01:20 * onen borrows sim from gf to get more logs
Apr 04 18:01:30 <DocScrutinizer> reselection forced to a neighbour cell
Apr 04 18:01:57 <onen> DocScrutinizer: ok. for this, sure, I find this great idea. you have my full support :-)
Apr 04 18:02:07 <onen> ok guys have to go
Apr 04 18:02:15 <DocScrutinizer> cya
Apr 04 18:03:01 <onen> for people who uploaded lastly, website should be updated by 21:00, if you want to see your results (check the status on home page)
Apr 04 18:04:38 <DocScrutinizer> onen: exactly like this:  http://nobbi.com/download/nmmanual.pdf p11 display17
Apr 04 18:09:11 <DocScrutinizer> would be a pity if FR was less of a "hackertool" than a 9Y old nokiaphone without any patches
Apr 04 18:12:50 * onen turns both FR for openBmap logs and leaves
Apr 04 18:21:00 * Dave logs Openmoko
Apr 04 18:22:07 * DocScrutinizer logs Dave while sitting on Dave's usb-cable between FR and PC
Apr 04 18:25:51 <Dave> :O
Apr 04 18:25:56 <Dave> my transmissions!
Apr 04 18:41:37 <mrmoku> TAsn: figured what out?
Apr 04 18:41:46 <TAsn> the deps
Apr 04 18:41:51 <TAsn> I forgot the R before DEPENDS
Apr 04 18:42:57 <mrmoku> TAsn: hehe... Runtime deps :-)
Apr 04 18:43:03 <TAsn> yeah ;]
Apr 04 18:43:22 <mrmoku> thought I thought DEPENDS are _also_ runtime dependencies... hmm
Apr 04 18:43:43 <mrmoku> if you have a lib in DEPENDS you don't need a RDEPENDS for it me thinks...
Apr 04 18:54:48 <TAsn> mrmoku, you are correct
Apr 04 18:54:53 <TAsn> though I had deps that are not libs
Apr 04 18:55:00 <TAsn> aplay for instance.
Apr 04 18:55:27 <Dave> :o
Apr 04 18:55:31 <Dave> tasn, still at it?
Apr 04 18:55:45 <TAsn> wasn't until a minute ago
Apr 04 18:55:48 <TAsn> I broke it ;[
Apr 04 18:55:53 <Dave> :O
Apr 04 18:56:00 <mrmoku> TAsn: ok :-)
Apr 04 18:57:21 * mrmoku is thinking hard what to download before leaving...
Apr 04 18:57:36 <Dave> rut roh
Apr 04 18:58:11 <TAsn> I really don't get it.
Apr 04 18:58:44 <TAsn> for some reason I don't have HAVE_FOO_H or any reference to it in the config.h
Apr 04 18:58:52 <TAsn> although the configure log shows it was checked
Apr 04 18:59:04 <TAsn> I had it before
Apr 04 18:59:12 <TAsn> can't remember what I did. ;\
Apr 04 19:03:09 <Dave> hey paroli :)
Apr 04 19:03:15 <mirko-paroli> hej Dave
Apr 04 19:03:17 <mirko-paroli> how
Apr 04 19:03:22 <Dave> :]
Apr 04 19:03:25 <mirko-paroli> is the good old US ?
Apr 04 19:03:32 <Dave> not so good :P
Apr 04 19:03:42 <mrmoku> but old ;)
Apr 04 19:03:43 <mirko-paroli> how come?
Apr 04 19:03:46 <Dave> Everything's expensive, everyone's broke, and everyone's fat.
Apr 04 19:03:54 <Dave> -_-
Apr 04 19:03:58 <mirko-paroli> so you are in Britain?
Apr 04 19:04:03 <Dave> hahahaha
Apr 04 19:04:10 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 19:04:54 <Dave> Wonka :D
Apr 04 19:05:33 <Wonka> i'm back.
Apr 04 19:07:08 <Dave> Hooray!
Apr 04 19:07:13 <Dave> We were lost without you!
Apr 04 19:12:43 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: 03sudharsh 07cornucopia * r43ace13adee4 10/ (5 files in 2 dirs): fsoframework: clean up commons; revert custom vala change in glib-2.0.vapi
Apr 04 19:12:45 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * rb68c8b63cc01 10/fsodeviced/src/plugins/kernel26_leds/plugin.vala: 
Apr 04 19:12:45 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: fsodevice: honor 'sysfs_root' attribute in top level config and compute paths based on it
Apr 04 19:12:45 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: By using the sysfs_root attribute we can develop many parts of fsodevice that do their work
Apr 04 19:12:47 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: using sysfs on the PC. Simply mount your neo's / to your PC (e.g. via sshfs) to /mnt/neo
Apr 04 19:12:50 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: and then set
Apr 04 19:12:52 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: [cornucopia]
Apr 04 19:12:54 <CIA-47> freesmartphone.org: sysfs_root = /mnt/neo/sysfs
Apr 04 19:17:48 <Dave> :p
Apr 04 19:35:03 <TAsn> lol I'm such an idiot
Apr 04 19:35:12 <TAsn> without noticing I dropped the S
Apr 04 19:35:15 <TAsn> after
Apr 04 19:35:18 <TAsn> ac_chekc_header
Apr 04 19:35:33 <TAsn> *erased
Apr 04 19:35:40 <TAsn> I had it at first.
Apr 04 19:36:59 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 19:37:06 <Dave> Surprise!
Apr 04 19:37:11 <Dave> Zombie code!
Apr 04 19:44:59 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 04 22:26:59 <quatrox|away> raster: there?
Apr 04 22:29:05 <Dave> er du her? :)
Apr 04 22:29:10 <Dave> quatrox :P
Apr 04 22:29:22 <quatrox|away> nei
Apr 04 22:29:31 <Dave> :[
Apr 04 22:29:36 <quatrox|away> ikke lenge
Apr 04 22:30:19 <quatrox|away> yeah
Apr 04 22:30:26 <quatrox|away> sorry
Apr 04 22:32:24 <DocScrutinizer> lindi-: ping
Apr 04 22:32:42 <Dave> :P
Apr 04 22:34:09 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: >:-S
Apr 04 22:34:17 <DocScrutinizer> :)
Apr 04 22:35:20 <DocScrutinizer> Dave: you have a FR with a somewhat working gsmhandset.state?
Apr 04 22:37:08 <DocScrutinizer> daaaaavee...?!
Apr 04 22:38:17 <quatrox|away> DAVE!!!! Answer the Doc!!!!
Apr 04 22:38:27 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Apr 04 22:39:20 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: how's your mic sensitivity on calls?
Apr 04 22:39:34 <quatrox|away> good
Apr 04 22:39:45 <DocScrutinizer> which distri?
Apr 04 22:39:56 <quatrox|away> shr
Apr 04 22:39:59 <quatrox|away> old
Apr 04 22:40:26 <quatrox|away> but... in OM20080808 and earlier, the sound quality was perfect
Apr 04 22:40:31 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: mic sensitivity is how loudly others hear you?
Apr 04 22:40:36 <quatrox|away> now the volume is very low
Apr 04 22:40:42 <DocScrutinizer> could you check gsmhandset.state value for control #63...
Apr 04 22:40:52 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: yup
Apr 04 22:41:25 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: ..#2..
Apr 04 22:41:41 <quatrox|away> DocScrutinizer: I tried to adjust it
Apr 04 22:41:47 <quatrox|away> it helped
Apr 04 22:41:53 <quatrox|away> but still
Apr 04 22:41:57 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: ..#30..
Apr 04 22:42:21 <quatrox|away> the same mixer settings were perfect in OM20080808
Apr 04 22:42:22 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: and tell me?
Apr 04 22:43:24 <quatrox|away> DocScrutinizer: I don't remember where I have the good mixer state file
Apr 04 22:43:38 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: also #48, #12 &  #5
Apr 04 22:44:08 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: on your FR at /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios ?
Apr 04 22:44:22 <quatrox|away> DocScrutinizer: it is not here right now
Apr 04 22:44:33 <quatrox|away> I can get it
Apr 04 22:44:37 <DocScrutinizer> eew, ok
Apr 04 22:44:45 <quatrox|away> but then you only get the default values
Apr 04 22:45:01 <DocScrutinizer> I'm fine with those for now
Apr 04 22:46:01 <quatrox|away> the only tweaks I did was to increase the two that was related to the handset speaker volume
Apr 04 22:46:11 <quatrox|away> I put them on max
Apr 04 22:46:56 <DocScrutinizer> It seems there are other changes creeping in unnoticed eventually
Apr 04 22:49:24 <quatrox|away> DocScrutinizer: I never updated the calypso, so it must be somewhere else
Apr 04 22:49:28 <quatrox|away> hmm
Apr 04 22:49:51 <quatrox|away> I think I still have OM20080808 on nand
Apr 04 22:50:02 <quatrox|away> (only using SD now)
Apr 04 22:51:03 <quatrox|away> |Marco|: do you remember the mixer tuning we did?
Apr 04 22:52:41 <DocScrutinizer> everybody who's got a 3min spare may please send me: "distri, mic-sensitivity-ok?[yn], buzzfix?[yn], "value" of gsmhandset.state control #48, 12, 5, 63, 30, 2"
Apr 04 22:54:50 <quatrox|away> DocScrutinizer: I can send you something tomorrow... need to flash with newest shr-unstable and adjust the settings again....
Apr 04 22:55:47 <DocScrutinizer> for FSO5.1-console e.g. this would be: "fso5.1-con, y, n, 2, 6, 110, RightPGA, off, 0/0"
Apr 04 22:57:27 <DocScrutinizer> a known good setting (from lindi. IIRC the values) is "xxx, y, Y, 3, 5, 100, mic2, x, x" where x==don't-care
Apr 04 22:59:13 <quatrox|away> DocScrutinizer: I guess it depends on the HW rev. also
Apr 04 22:59:18 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: how do i know if the mic sensitivity is ok? somebody on the other line has to tell me it's too soft?
Apr 04 22:59:34 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: shouldn't
Apr 04 22:59:48 <quatrox|away> btw
Apr 04 23:00:18 <quatrox|away> that hw fix that changed the mic input into single ended....
Apr 04 23:00:33 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: well yup. either far end tells you it's ok, or they tell you "can't hear you"
Apr 04 23:00:35 <quatrox|away> did that not have any affects on the mic?
Apr 04 23:00:59 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: that's why I ask for buzzfix?[yn]
Apr 04 23:01:08 <quatrox|away> ahh
Apr 04 23:05:29 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: shr-unstable(latest),y,y,2,6,110,'Right PGA',Off,0/0
Apr 04 23:06:05 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: although the people i talk to may be undiscriminating
Apr 04 23:07:13 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: these are untweaked? (to the best of your knowledge)
Apr 04 23:07:33 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: this is what i'm using right now as my everyday phone
Apr 04 23:07:44 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: i only adjusted the speaker volume
Apr 04 23:08:02 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: ok, thanks. Who did the buzzfix?
Apr 04 23:08:03 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: control #4, that is. It's still a tad too soft, though
Apr 04 23:08:09 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: i did
Apr 04 23:08:22 <DocScrutinizer> it's working for you?
Apr 04 23:08:34 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: i'm told it made it better, but i didn't hear the other side before or after
Apr 04 23:10:40 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: semi-relatedly, do you know if #4 is the only control to adjust the speaker volume? I maxed it out, but it's still too soft
Apr 04 23:11:12 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: you leveled up #6 ?
Apr 04 23:11:28 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: nope. 
Apr 04 23:11:37 <budfive> #6 is at 7/7 
Apr 04 23:11:56 <budfive> i guess this is the max
Apr 04 23:12:40 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Apr 04 23:15:41 <quatrox|away> what happens if we use values out of range?
Apr 04 23:15:50 <quatrox|away> undefined?
Apr 04 23:16:09 <quatrox|away> or max?
Apr 04 23:17:35 <Dave> :D
Apr 04 23:17:51 <Dave> Joerg, no I don't think so :P
Apr 04 23:21:25 <DocScrutinizer> quatrox|away: alsactl will throw an error I guess
Apr 04 23:22:06 <quatrox|away> ok
Apr 04 23:35:13 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: what's with AT+CLVL? You maxed it out?
Apr 04 23:35:23 <fredrin> http://mobile.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=09/04/04/228240
Apr 04 23:35:34 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: AT+CLVL=255
Apr 04 23:37:47 <DocScrutinizer> btw frm OM #2216 it seems to me OM2008.12 did level (user interface) control via AT+CLVL, which I'd say is WROOONG
Apr 04 23:38:48 <DocScrutinizer> Ainulindale: ping
Apr 04 23:39:24 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: i didn't touch at+clvl. can i play with it with mickeyterm?
Apr 04 23:39:35 <DocScrutinizer> yup sure
Apr 04 23:39:48 <budfive> it's at 175
Apr 04 23:39:50 <DocScrutinizer> do a at+clvl=?
Apr 04 23:39:55 <DocScrutinizer> ahh
Apr 04 23:40:02 <budfive> boosting that would boost the volume?
Apr 04 23:40:14 <DocScrutinizer> of earpiece as I got it
Apr 04 23:40:30 <budfive> trying..
Apr 04 23:40:49 <DocScrutinizer> it should be 255 I'd say, doing real level adj with mixer control #4
Apr 04 23:40:57 <ingi> mirko: here ?
Apr 04 23:42:01 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: maybe it makes a difference. If so, it's slight
Apr 04 23:42:32 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Apr 04 23:42:48 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: let me try again, varying it more
Apr 04 23:43:04 <DocScrutinizer> probably you have those nasty 1uF "resistors"
Apr 04 23:43:19 <budfive> ?
Apr 04 23:43:28 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: try a at+clvl=10 to see what it does
Apr 04 23:43:58 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: ok, yeah. it definitely does something. 255 helps, just not a lot
Apr 04 23:44:23 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: is there a place to permanently set this? in the framework probably... ?
Apr 04 23:44:31 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: (resistors) R4110/4111 are not 0R, but actually 1uF in some devices
Apr 04 23:44:49 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: ????? why? 
Apr 04 23:44:53 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: (set) no idea. here's hw-dept ;-)
Apr 04 23:44:59 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: haha
Apr 04 23:45:18 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: should i rework those? shorting something is easy
Apr 04 23:45:31 <DocScrutinizer> I'd recommend it
Apr 04 23:45:44 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: looking at schematic...
Apr 04 23:46:11 <raster> quatrox|away: ja?
Apr 04 23:46:11 <DocScrutinizer> I'll wait for the "8-S" then :D
Apr 04 23:46:36 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: the schematic doesn't have r411[01], but does have c411[01] = 1uF
Apr 04 23:47:03 <DocScrutinizer> duh, which schem do you use?
Apr 04 23:47:12 <quatrox|away> raster: I can forward a an old mail I sent to pats to you
Apr 04 23:47:46 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: anyway those are nasty, silly, and useless. short hem!!!
Apr 04 23:48:44 <raster> quatrox|away: bout what?
Apr 04 23:49:39 <quatrox|away> raster: Knut Yrvin <kyrvin@trolltech.com>, anne-marte.hjemas@telenor.com <anne-marte.hjemas@telenor.com>
Apr 04 23:50:10 <quatrox|away> raster: Subject: pats.no open source mobile software (Intern)
Apr 04 23:50:11 * DocScrutinizer really wonders which shematics version budfive digged up in internet ;-)
Apr 04 23:50:13 <quatrox|away> hmm
Apr 04 23:50:20 <quatrox|away> it is in norwegian
Apr 04 23:50:32 <quatrox|away> so I guess you don't need it
Apr 04 23:50:43 <quatrox|away> but now you got the correct e-mails
Apr 04 23:51:18 <raster> quatrox|away: aaah about that! sure!
Apr 04 23:51:19 <raster> :)
Apr 04 23:51:55 <DocScrutinizer> o.O
Apr 04 23:52:02 <quatrox|away> raster (got replay from Anne-Marte Fri, Mar 16, 2007 at 18:25)
Apr 04 23:52:08 <quatrox|away> so it is a bit old
Apr 04 23:52:19 <DocScrutinizer> ahh, telenor
Apr 04 23:52:29 <quatrox|away> yes
Apr 04 23:53:09 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: my router died. did you say anything after duh, which schem do you use?
Apr 04 23:53:23 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: you jumped from term to soldering station? :D
Apr 04 23:53:35 <DocScrutinizer> not really
Apr 04 23:53:41 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: :)
Apr 04 23:53:43 <DocScrutinizer> still wondering
Apr 04 23:53:57 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: ok. i'm looking at the datasheet
Apr 04 23:54:09 <DocScrutinizer> [2009-04-05 01:47:47] <DocScrutinizer> budfive: anyway those are nasty, silly, and useless. short hem!!!
Apr 04 23:54:16 <budfive_> :)
Apr 04 23:54:29 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: just got a new router yesterday to fix the random deaths of the old one. Turns out the new one randomly dies too. >:O
Apr 04 23:54:44 <DocScrutinizer> hmmpf
Apr 04 23:54:58 <DocScrutinizer> Zyxel?
Apr 04 23:57:42 <DocScrutinizer> obviously died again :-/
Apr 05 00:01:01 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: so does the 0R/1uF variability depend on the revision (A5/A6), or do units within a revision differ?
Apr 05 00:01:39 <DocScrutinizer> nobody seems to be able to tell for sure :-(
Apr 05 00:01:57 <DocScrutinizer> BOM are messed up fubar
Apr 05 00:02:31 <DocScrutinizer> nobody is responsible for those 1uF vanishing and ressurecting every once in a while
Apr 05 00:03:44 <DocScrutinizer> I wrote a >100 lines analysis just about where to look to learn nothing at all
Apr 05 00:05:12 <DocScrutinizer> sth like 2..30 BOM around, nobody can tell exactly for which range of SER/datecode they apply. most of them fscked up anyway so you can't even tell what *4110 is a type of component
Apr 05 00:05:39 <Dave> :D
Apr 05 00:05:49 <Dave> oh damn
Apr 05 00:06:15 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: huh. I just got confirmation that the sound quality coming out of my GTA02 is fine (mic sensitivity is fine, as i guessed earlier)
Apr 05 00:06:36 <raster> quatrox|away: send it around. i'll see what google translate does with it
Apr 05 00:06:42 <DocScrutinizer> your local vol still kinda too low?
Apr 05 00:07:17 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: seemed fine right now.maybe that 175->255 was enough. I'll need to live with it for a day
Apr 05 00:08:09 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: wait. don't R/C411[01] affect the headset and not the handset?
Apr 05 00:08:20 <DocScrutinizer> maybe you might try change #63 from "right PGA" to "mic 2"? then see if you can have same good sensitivity of mic?
Apr 05 00:08:45 <DocScrutinizer> uhh, sorry, you're right
Apr 05 00:08:47 <DocScrutinizer> mompl
Apr 05 00:09:06 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: i've never even tried the headset. 
Apr 05 00:09:23 <budfive_> you want me to do that test?
Apr 05 00:09:35 <DocScrutinizer> 3004/3005 that is
Apr 05 00:10:16 <budfive_> 3004/3005 are also unknown 0R/1uF?
Apr 05 00:10:20 <DocScrutinizer> those should be 0R in your schem
Apr 05 00:10:31 <budfive_> yes. 
Apr 05 00:10:45 <DocScrutinizer> nah, I got it wrong. was speaking about 3004/5 all the time
Apr 05 00:11:09 <budfive_> ok. got it
Apr 05 00:11:14 <quatrox|away> raster@?
Apr 05 00:11:27 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: did you want me to experiment with #63?
Apr 05 00:11:36 <DocScrutinizer> yup, please
Apr 05 00:11:43 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: k
Apr 05 00:11:49 <DocScrutinizer> great :)
Apr 05 00:12:01 <raster> quatrox|away: raster@rasterman.com
Apr 05 00:20:02 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: #63 at "Mic 2" reported more noisy, but volume similar
Apr 05 00:20:24 <DocScrutinizer> noisy like hiss, or buzz or what?
Apr 05 00:20:43 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: oh man. let me ask
Apr 05 00:21:09 <DocScrutinizer> did you try to increase #5 to maybe get lesser noise, or even reduce it?
Apr 05 00:21:28 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: i only changed #63
Apr 05 00:22:26 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: "buzz, i guess"
Apr 05 00:22:30 <DocScrutinizer> budfive_: from an EE POV you shuld get *less* noise if you use "mic 2" instead of "right PGA" and calibrate the fhole path to yield same overall gain
Apr 05 00:23:06 <DocScrutinizer> strange
Apr 05 00:23:30 <budfive_> DocScrutinizer: don't know what to tell you
Apr 05 00:23:54 <DocScrutinizer> well not entirely. probably the overall gain jumped up by ~17.5 dBm
Apr 05 00:24:05 <DocScrutinizer> and calypso ALC leveled that
Apr 05 00:24:17 <DocScrutinizer> but buzz was up by 17.5dBm anyway
Apr 05 00:25:27 <DocScrutinizer> so I'd predict you get same experience when reducing #5 to have 17dBm less, 
Apr 05 00:25:56 <DocScrutinizer> should be no diff to "right PGA" then
Apr 05 00:26:34 <DocScrutinizer> anyway, it's not THAT inportant to test this now, if you don't like to
Apr 05 00:28:27 <raster> quatrox|away:  translaties
Apr 05 00:29:55 <quatrox|away> lol
Apr 05 00:30:30 <raster> quatrox|away: aaah i see
Apr 05 00:30:57 <quatrox|away> raster: what should i translate?
Apr 05 00:31:00 <raster> so the idea is that for students/open source projects u can get "free calls"
Apr 05 00:31:10 <raster> (sms)
Apr 05 00:31:12 <Dave> :o
Apr 05 00:31:29 <raster> as a kind of gentlemans agreement so that while u develop stuff - you dont pay for the network stuff
Apr 05 00:31:45 <raster> so if u make mistakes and acciedntally make a loop that sends 1000 sms's all of a sudden
Apr 05 00:31:46 <raster> you';re ok
Apr 05 00:32:13 <raster> (and as a gentlemans agreement you dont go abusing the thingt by making some sort of service for everyone to send free sms's etc.)
Apr 05 00:33:04 <quatrox|away> a bit more
Apr 05 00:33:28 <quatrox|away> the license must be an open source license
Apr 05 00:33:47 <quatrox|away> you get extra access to the network
Apr 05 00:33:52 <quatrox|away> and ...
Apr 05 00:33:57 <quatrox|away> but nm that
Apr 05 00:34:32 <raster> oh and they provide help in promotion etc.
Apr 05 00:34:36 <raster> i got the idea
Apr 05 00:34:42 <raster> but mostly - they are pro open-source]
Apr 05 00:34:46 <raster> thats the important bit
Apr 05 00:34:52 <quatrox|away> yes
Apr 05 00:34:56 <raster> finding telco's that are pro-open source
Apr 05 00:35:02 <raster> and i mean really pro
Apr 05 00:35:13 <raster> (not just saying it to get publicity)
Apr 05 00:35:45 <raster> and get them together - as if there are enough of them... that means a list of possible customers for an open mobile grows longer
Apr 05 00:35:50 <raster> the longer that list.. the better.
Apr 05 00:36:01 <quatrox|away> not sure about telenors view, but one can try
Apr 05 00:36:11 <raster> i'll ping anne
Apr 05 00:36:28 <quatrox|away> :)
Apr 05 00:43:26 <raster> 　øøø
Apr 05 00:43:34 <raster> now i feel all norwegian :)
Apr 05 00:43:47 <quatrox|away> lol
Apr 05 00:44:08 <quatrox|away> it is a great feeling
Apr 05 00:44:09 <quatrox|away> :)
Apr 05 00:46:33 <fredrin_> raster: you got friends in telenor? 
Apr 05 00:48:17 <DocScrutinizer> raster: sounds good, no?
Apr 05 00:48:18 <|Marco|> raster: æøå ?
Apr 05 00:48:21 <|Marco|> ;)
Apr 05 00:48:28 <raster> fredrin: nei
Apr 05 00:49:07 <quatrox|away> raster: you can also ping Yrvin
Apr 05 00:49:41 <raster> sure
Apr 05 00:49:47 <raster> tho for now - anne
Apr 05 00:50:11 <raster> the trolls are now nokia
Apr 05 00:50:22 <quatrox|away> yeah
Apr 05 00:50:28 <fredrin> the trolls tricked nokia
Apr 05 00:50:31 <quatrox|away> the tire company
Apr 05 00:50:35 <raster> thus... strategically it is against their interest to help anyone who wants to produce competing phones.
Apr 05 00:50:52 <raster> as an open source phone.. is a competing product
Apr 05 00:52:10 <DocScrutinizer> raster: Im not even sure there's a clear troll entity anymore
Apr 05 00:52:41 <quatrox|away> no more trolls?
Apr 05 00:52:43 <raster> well the trolls consider themselves trolls still
Apr 05 00:52:56 <quatrox|away> yeah
Apr 05 00:52:58 <raster> but business-wise, it's now part of nokia
Apr 05 00:53:06 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Apr 05 00:53:09 <fredrin> norway will always be full of trolls 
Apr 05 00:53:16 <fredrin> :)
Apr 05 00:53:27 <DocScrutinizer> one on every tree
Apr 05 00:53:34 <fredrin> and Nisser, but that's another thing 
Apr 05 00:54:15 <|Marco|> gnomes ?
Apr 05 00:54:23 <quatrox|away> trolls lives in cages also, not only in trees
Apr 05 00:54:51 <quatrox|away> gnome is not norwegian
Apr 05 00:54:53 <|Marco|> fredrin: don't forget the nitro nisser :P
Apr 05 00:55:05 <DocScrutinizer> I heard they decide to change routes for roads not to disturb trolls
Apr 05 00:55:09 <|Marco|> quatrox|away: meh, who cares :)
Apr 05 00:55:31 <quatrox|away> :)
Apr 05 00:56:39 <quatrox|away> marco, did you save the alsa state file that we tuned?
Apr 05 00:57:29 <|Marco|> quatrox|away: I think it was on one of the setups that went corrupt.. so no..
Apr 05 00:57:33 <|Marco|> sorry mac
Apr 05 00:57:47 <quatrox|away> ok
Apr 05 00:58:18 <quatrox|away> maybe we can tune in a new one tomorrow
Apr 05 00:58:53 <quatrox|away> doc would like to collect some statistics
Apr 05 00:58:54 <fredrin> could the main gui of the phone just be a webapp? 
Apr 05 00:59:03 <fredrin> like ajax and stuff 
Apr 05 00:59:17 <quatrox|away> it could
Apr 05 00:59:27 <fredrin> and have a local custom webserver 
Apr 05 00:59:34 <quatrox|away> but would be terrible slow
Apr 05 00:59:39 <|Marco|> mhm
Apr 05 01:00:19 <quatrox|away> fredrin: ajax or dbus.... same thing
Apr 05 01:00:24 <quatrox|away> slooooooooow
Apr 05 01:00:35 <quatrox|away> extra layers
Apr 05 01:00:39 <fredrin> i know
Apr 05 01:01:27 <quatrox|away> and the neo only has 128MB - 16(kernel) -16(X, etc)
Apr 05 01:01:48 <raster> fredrin: you could do a webapp runing from a local apache
Apr 05 01:01:52 <raster> but it would not be fast
Apr 05 01:02:00 <raster> i would not recommend it for most apps
Apr 05 01:02:08 <fredrin> smaller than apache
Apr 05 01:02:09 <raster> if u want it fast and responsive - native code
Apr 05 01:02:14 <raster> doesnt much matter
Apr 05 01:02:26 <raster> its the fact u need now 3 processes invovled
Apr 05 01:02:32 <raster> x, app and server to do anything
Apr 05 01:02:34 <fredrin> have optimized webserver in python for the FR 
Apr 05 01:02:46 <raster> possibly 4 or 5 (php and mysqld... the list goes on)
Apr 05 01:03:01 <fredrin> but it would make it esier for people to make apps and gui stuff, like without writing modules in C for E... 
Apr 05 01:03:05 <raster> it wont be fast
Apr 05 01:03:11 <raster> i would say use it for some "trivial" apps
Apr 05 01:03:26 <raster> for times whenu want to quickly hack up somethnig and you are familiar only with doing webapps
Apr 05 01:03:27 <quatrox|away> python is easy
Apr 05 01:03:36 <raster> but i would not say its a good idea for "all core apps"
Apr 05 01:03:45 <raster> ie launcher, dialler, etc. etc.
Apr 05 01:03:48 <|Marco|> yeah, but they need to implement some of the stuff google has been working on
Apr 05 01:04:05 <fredrin> not all, but i guess in the future, a webbrowser would be running on the phone most of the time 
Apr 05 01:04:30 <fredrin> why not make it controll some of the phone things aswell, like setings, configs++++ other non graphical things. 
Apr 05 01:04:53 <|Marco|> fredrin: that's what we make gui's for ;) NON web
Apr 05 01:05:26 <raster> fredrin: again... its faster and simpler to do iut away from the browser+www
Apr 05 01:06:12 <fredrin> mja 
Apr 05 01:06:19 <quatrox|away> web gui is very difficult
Apr 05 01:06:37 <fredrin> but more common
Apr 05 01:06:45 <quatrox|away> nah
Apr 05 01:07:13 <raster> doing a GOOD web gui is more work than using a toolkit like gtk or elementary etc.
Apr 05 01:07:17 <raster> for simple config tools
Apr 05 01:07:56 <quatrox|away> with session cookies, etc
Apr 05 01:08:04 <raster> yup
Apr 05 01:08:05 <quatrox|away> or ajax
Apr 05 01:08:25 * DocScrutinizer has a dull feeling "left PGA" and "right PGA" are swapped :-(
Apr 05 01:08:35 <DocScrutinizer> gonna check that later
Apr 05 01:08:58 <quatrox|away> PGA?
Apr 05 01:09:10 <quatrox|away> programmable gate array?
Apr 05 01:09:12 <DocScrutinizer> Programmable Gain Amp
Apr 05 01:09:17 <quatrox|away> ahh
Apr 05 01:09:25 <DocScrutinizer> in wlfson mixer
Apr 05 02:39:04 <budfive_>  any shr people here? there are two copies of ophonekitd in the repo: one in c, and the other in vala. Which is the "master"? Is there a rewrite in progress?
Apr 05 02:44:03 <zeroedout> I'm pretty sure they are/wanted to rewrite most everything to Vala, so my guess would be vala is the newer one
Apr 05 02:53:23 <budfive_> thx
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Apr 05 02:59:57 2009