**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Apr 15 02:59:57 2009
Apr 15 04:28:28 <CIA-75> SHR: 03mwester 07shr-overlay * r9cabbf1997f6 10/openembedded/recipes/initscripts-shr/ (initscripts-shr/g_ether.sh initscripts-shr_git.bb): initcripts-shr: g_ether.sh - added new init script to load the
Apr 15 05:43:27 <spaetz> hey mwester commits in SHR
Apr 15 05:43:30 <spaetz> cool
Apr 15 05:54:21 <mickey|ICE874> morning folks
Apr 15 05:54:27 <budfive> mwester: there?
Apr 15 06:43:36 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03Frederik.Sdun 07specs * rd87c0a3e56de 10/ (3 files in 3 dirs): 
Apr 15 06:43:36 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Changed signature of signal
Apr 15 06:43:36 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Gypsy.Position.PositionChanged to new API
Apr 15 06:58:56 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07libgsm0710mux * rf94a7f6ce723 10/ (Makefile.am gsm0710mux/serial.vala gsm0710mux/transport.vala): rename serial to transport
Apr 15 07:08:02 <gurugentoo> where do I find the 2.6.29 kernel?, there are modules labeled 2.6.28* that contain 2.6.29 modules but the uImage under unstable is a 2.6.28 kernel
Apr 15 07:10:02 <PaulFertser> gurugentoo: shr unstable builds the latest andy-tracking, that's .29-based.
Apr 15 07:11:34 <gurugentoo> PaulFertser: this is the only one in there... http://shr.bearstech.com/shr-unstable/images/om-gta02/uImage-2.6.28-oe1+gitr119785+2bea5c68313577b214b872b0edc5968db0cf3b68-r3.2-om-gta02.bin
Apr 15 07:12:40 <gurugentoo> when booted it's a .28
Apr 15 07:12:50 <budfive> PaulFertser: Check out the calypso-crash bug report (https://docs.openmoko.org/trac/ticket/2264). I just got more data
Apr 15 07:15:35 <PaulFertser> budfive: so it looks like lindi-'s 2257 is two problems: one is that gsm0710muxd doesn't work while socat does and the other is calypso crash, right?
Apr 15 07:16:36 <budfive> PaulFertser: no, i thinks 2257 = 2264
Apr 15 07:16:57 <mickey|ICE874> did anyone test abyss in the situation where gsm0710muxd doesn't work?
Apr 15 07:17:00 <budfive> PaulFertser: lindi sees his calypso die, then power-cycles it and the uses socat to verify that the calypso is back
Apr 15 07:17:16 <PaulFertser> budfive: hm, lindi-'s main complain expressed in 2257 is that gsm0710muxd can't connect to the modem after power-cycle.
Apr 15 07:17:16 <budfive> PaulFertser: before the power-cycle socat does nothing, since his calypso has crashed
Apr 15 07:17:54 <PaulFertser> mickey|ICE874: lindi- has not done that yet because it requires vala compiler he lacks, iirc.
Apr 15 07:18:24 <PaulFertser> budfive: sure. But reloading gsm0710muxd does power-cycle too.
Apr 15 07:18:25 <budfive> PaulFertser: oh. i guess it is two separate issues then
Apr 15 07:18:31 <mickey|ICE874> i see. a dependency that could easily be fulfilled though ;)
Apr 15 07:18:43 <PaulFertser> mickey|ICE874: on Debian?
Apr 15 07:18:52 <mickey|ICE874> everywhere
Apr 15 07:18:55 <mickey|ICE874> it's like...
Apr 15 07:18:57 <mickey|ICE874> wget
Apr 15 07:18:58 <mickey|ICE874> configure
Apr 15 07:18:59 <mickey|ICE874> make install
Apr 15 07:19:07 <gurugentoo> PaulFertser: I stand corrected, I thought I had tried that (mislabeled) kernel
Apr 15 07:19:30 <mickey|ICE874> unless you follow a strict i-only-use-precompiled-packages policy, but as a developer i find such a policy questionable...
Apr 15 07:19:32 <PaulFertser> mickey|ICE874: hehe :) not true debian way. The problem is that lindi- doesn't have a reliable way to reproduce it.
Apr 15 07:19:47 <budfive> PaulFertser: also, i haven't exactly tried to resurrect the modem after it crashes, so it's very possible that I'm seeing the other aspect of 2257 also. 
Apr 15 07:19:49 <PaulFertser> (the problem with bug 2257)
Apr 15 07:20:09 <budfive> mickeyl: i can reliably make the calypso die (see 2264 for instructions)
Apr 15 07:20:20 <budfive> mickeyl: i can test abyss for you, if it's ready to be tested
Apr 15 07:20:44 <mickey|ICE874> 2264 may be cured by fso-abyss. I'll release 0.3.3 very soon which contains FC support
Apr 15 07:20:54 <mickey|ICE874> hence we no longer overload the modem
Apr 15 07:20:57 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: could you create a second set of logs? so we can compare and skip the obviously unrelated stuff
Apr 15 07:21:00 <budfive> mickey|ICE874: ok, so should i wait?
Apr 15 07:21:07 <PaulFertser> mickey|ICE874: the traffic goes the other way, from network to freerunner.
Apr 15 07:21:10 <mickey|ICE874> budfive: yes, wait for 0.3.3
Apr 15 07:21:34 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: i'm not sure what you want. 
Apr 15 07:21:52 <mickey|ICE874> PaulFertser: true, but still you have to submit ACK packages
Apr 15 07:21:53 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: the two logs i just uploaded are much shorter than the first. 
Apr 15 07:22:35 <PaulFertser> mickey|ICE874: Dieter suspects gsm part, probably that's completely unrelated to multiplexing. I guess budfive can even try to go without multiplexing at all.
Apr 15 07:22:57 <DocScrutinizer> budfive: a second set of logs, both nspy and hs-jack, of the same situation, just maybe this time a crash on first site-load
Apr 15 07:23:24 <budfive> DocScrutinizer: k
Apr 15 07:23:28 <mickey|ICE874> PaulFertser: yeah, that'd be interesting. 
Apr 15 07:23:38 <budfive> what will happen to flow control if i don't multiplex?
Apr 15 07:24:01 <PaulFertser> budfive: use hardware flow control, crtscts pppd option iirc.
Apr 15 07:24:09 <mickey|ICE874> good question. i don't know whether pppd honors that
Apr 15 07:24:25 <budfive> ok. that's something I've wanted to try for a while. let's see...
Apr 15 07:25:50 <DocScrutinizer> mickeyl: does the linux-side handler know about "+++" escape sequence you'd probably need if you don't use mux?
Apr 15 07:26:24 <mickey|ICE874> DocScrutinizer: ppp probably knows about that, yeah
Apr 15 07:26:27 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: modem should ignore it if it's followed by other bytes without considerable delay.
Apr 15 07:26:42 <DocScrutinizer> guard time. I know
Apr 15 07:28:14 <DocScrutinizer> mickeyl: I recently wondered what happened if the last three chars of a block are + when using mux
Apr 15 07:28:18 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer: and pppd has an "escape" option to escape any character you specify. I'm not sure i've seen it used with modem links.
Apr 15 07:29:33 <DocScrutinizer> well may be this is impossible to ever happen. I don't know, just wondered
Apr 15 07:30:21 <spaetz> DocScrutinizer: are you *still* or *already* awake?
Apr 15 07:30:32 <DocScrutinizer> still
Apr 15 07:30:32 <spaetz> the Doc that never sleeps
Apr 15 07:30:45 <spaetz> amazing
Apr 15 07:31:03 <DocScrutinizer> anoying
Apr 15 07:31:07 <spaetz> I'd be dead by now
Apr 15 07:31:08 <mickey|ICE874> DocScrutinizer: most modems ignore +++ in muxmode
Apr 15 07:31:17 <mickey|ICE874> DocScrutinizer: i'm pretty sure calypso does as well
Apr 15 07:31:17 <DocScrutinizer> hmm
Apr 15 07:32:22 <DocScrutinizer> that's what I'd expect but not sure about it
Apr 15 07:32:27 <mickey|ICE874> hehe
Apr 15 07:32:32 <mickey|ICE874> try it
Apr 15 07:32:49 <DocScrutinizer> yup, sure
Apr 15 07:35:41 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r1793804a5085 10/libfsoframework/ (4 files in 2 dirs): fsoframework: transport: support freeze() and thaw()
Apr 15 07:37:56 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r0523cc1a92af 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): otimed: make ntp server configurable
Apr 15 07:45:57 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07cornucopia * r45b927cc48c9 10/libfsoframework/tests/testtransport.vala: fsoframework: add test for transport/freeze&thaw
Apr 15 07:57:47 <DocScrutinizer> alphaone: moin
Apr 15 07:58:00 <alphaone> moin DocScrutinizer 
Apr 15 08:12:13 <ptitjes> good morning
Apr 15 08:21:26 <JaMa> Hi, is pkg-fso.alioth.debian.org down?
Apr 15 08:42:59 <budfive> mickeyl: i'm running mux-less right now and i can't make it crash. seems like the mux may be at fault. i'm really pleased about that
Apr 15 08:48:42 <PaulFertser> budfive: good news :)
Apr 15 08:50:01 <budfive> PaulFertser: i'm really trying to kill it, but it's not dying. 
Apr 15 08:50:17 <budfive> PaulFertser: do you use gprs at all? Can you get a steady data stream without it stalling all the time
Apr 15 08:50:27 <budfive> PaulFertser: on average i'm not sure i get even 1kb/s
Apr 15 08:51:42 <PaulFertser> budfive: i'm not sure, gprs is a bit expensive here, haven't done real tests. I used ssh (screen+gnu+irssi) over FR's gprs and it was painful, but i could at least read some mail.
Apr 15 08:52:37 <budfive> PaulFertser: yeah. i can do things, it's just painfully slow. Maybe it's my area. I'm directly behind a sizeable hill and don't get very good reception
Apr 15 08:52:57 <dent> gprs has been slow/slapping for me... but I haven't tried other phones, so I didn't know who's to blame (operator or FR)
Apr 15 08:53:02 <dent> eeee stalling
Apr 15 08:53:03 <dent> :))
Apr 15 08:53:08 <dent> what a typo
Apr 15 08:53:16 <budfive> :)
Apr 15 08:53:46 <dent> also, it dies after some time... and then I can't reconnect w/o reboot
Apr 15 08:53:58 <dent> (iirc it says mux: cannot allocat channel or something like that)
Apr 15 08:54:06 <budfive> in general, the FR seems to not cope well with poor reception. It drops far more calls than my crappy nokia ever did. Interestingly, the iphone is stellar with that
Apr 15 09:03:46 <methril|work> good morning
Apr 15 09:03:54 <knj> good morning
Apr 15 09:13:06 <ptitjes> mickeyl: hello
Apr 15 09:13:37 <PaulFertser> budfive: have you already notified Dieter? Somebody should've added a CC for him on trac.
Apr 15 09:13:52 <PaulFertser> budfive: i guess i don't have permissions. Should ask someone for that.
Apr 15 09:14:43 <ptitjes> mickeyl: I made s***t - I forgot to copy my ssh key from my old computer and my dad already formated it
Apr 15 09:15:07 <ptitjes> mickeyl: might it be possible to update my public key on fso's git ?
Apr 15 09:16:05 <mickey|bs> ptitjes: sure thing, send me your new one
Apr 15 09:16:48 <ptitjes> thanks
Apr 15 09:18:23 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03aapo.rantalainen 07vala-terminal * rd9b50c359472 10/src/ (mainwindow.vala terminal.vala): Added commandline parameters for colours and fontname
Apr 15 09:21:57 <ptitjes> mickey|bs: sent to vanille
Apr 15 09:22:04 <ptitjes> thank you
Apr 15 09:27:22 <mickey|bs> done
Apr 15 10:24:53 <Zorkman> small question, in shr-testing i was able to create a desktop icon which executed for example Exec=DISPLAY=:0 vala-terminal /home/root/w
Apr 15 10:25:17 <Zorkman> but with that same Exec=... command it doesn't work in shr-unstable
Apr 15 10:26:04 <Zorkman> does anyone know which flag i have to use?
Apr 15 10:26:51 <Zorkman> never mind, i found it
Apr 15 10:26:55 <Zorkman> "-e"
Apr 15 10:39:25 <lindi-> Zorkman: why do you set DISPLAY=:0?
Apr 15 10:42:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r16680545f4f4 10/setup.py: setup.py: ship cell db
Apr 15 11:20:11 <Zorkman> lindi-: yes
Apr 15 11:20:16 <Zorkman> but there is a new flag it seems
Apr 15 11:20:26 <Zorkman> correct line is: Exec=DISPLAY=:0 vala-terminal -e /home/root/w
Apr 15 11:30:32 <lindi-> Zorkman: why?
Apr 15 11:35:41 <gfather> hay guys 
Apr 15 11:37:30 <gfather> dos1 u here ? 
Apr 15 11:50:41 <kvaster_> hi. i'm trying to port openmoko to eten x500+ device. it is very similar to gta02 in hardware part. right now i'm having small problems with touchscreen. anybody can help me with touchscreen kernel driver ?
Apr 15 11:59:07 <PaulFertser> kvaster_: write a mail to openmoko-kernel mailing list or hope that Arhuaco (Nelson) will be here or ask morphis, he has some experience (and unsorted problems too) :)
Apr 15 12:00:08 <kvaster_> thanks
Apr 15 12:00:46 <PaulFertser> kvaster_: but in fact touchscreen itself is something device-specific, you need to sort that with x500 kernel hackers. Nelson is the author of kernel touchscreen filtering infrastructure.
Apr 15 12:00:57 <kvaster_> I have a kernel which I can launch already with very few features.
Apr 15 12:01:04 <kvaster_> x500's touchscreen I
Apr 15 12:01:08 <kvaster_> I/F is tha same
Apr 15 12:01:16 <kvaster_> as in gta02 - s3c2442B platform
Apr 15 12:02:33 <kvaster_> touchscreen is working it self, but coords are very strange on light touch
Apr 15 12:03:02 <kvaster_> (cursor is trying to move to the left upper corner when i'm releasing stylus)
Apr 15 12:08:14 <PaulFertser> kvaster_: yeah, looks like you need some parameter tweaking, Nelson should show the way.
Apr 15 12:09:28 <kvaster_> ok. thanks.
Apr 15 12:12:01 <PaulFertser> kvaster_: preferably you can collect some sample data and specify which kernel version you use (in the ML letter).
Apr 15 12:18:02 <kvaster_> 2 PaulFertser: i'm using latest andy-tracking branch
Apr 15 12:18:24 <PaulFertser> kvaster_: cool, don't forget to mention it.
Apr 15 12:51:40 <max_posedon> kvaster_, welcome! nice that you find time for it)
Apr 15 12:52:31 <kvaster_> argh. touchscreen makes me crazy :)
Apr 15 12:52:56 <kvaster_> and it's definitely related to kernel driver
Apr 15 13:02:47 <TAsn> lol, someone is trying to sell his FIRST us batch 900 FR for 250$, what a sham. First batch had hw issues and newest is 300$ ;\
Apr 15 13:04:38 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03didier 07libfso-glib * r336724192d63 10/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am): 
Apr 15 13:04:38 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Make typelib generation optional (with --enable-typelib)
Apr 15 13:04:38 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Didier Villevalois <didier@didier.local>
Apr 15 13:16:49 <Dave> Moo
Apr 15 13:44:13 <neomilium> Hi, I want to add internal devices to FreeRunner, I'm looking for additional internal USB. Schematics seems not contain such things... I'm right ?
Apr 15 13:44:15 <playya> anyone knows if the opendhand guys are still reachable on their OH mails?
Apr 15 13:45:52 <neomilium> dunno
Apr 15 13:51:15 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03didier 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r4dc42242752c 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: 
Apr 15 13:51:15 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Fix missing closing brace from commit de5398704c072d942663c71502fc043c292fcf54
Apr 15 13:51:15 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Didier Villevalois <didier@didier.local>
Apr 15 13:51:26 <Dave> man, ohand was the shit
Apr 15 13:51:58 <ptitjes> playya: this commit is for you ^^^^^^^^:D
Apr 15 13:52:01 <playya> ptitjes, i tested my patch
Apr 15 13:52:08 <ptitjes> playya: hello btw
Apr 15 13:52:14 <playya> and everything works
Apr 15 13:52:17 <playya> hi
Apr 15 13:52:27 <ptitjes> playya: but it missed a closing brace => syntax error
Apr 15 13:52:41 <playya> git diff was 0 lines before i pushed it
Apr 15 13:52:53 <playya> i know. i pulled it today
Apr 15 13:52:54 <ptitjes> playya: I fixed it so no problems :)
Apr 15 14:13:57 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03didier 07libfso-glib * r8ce18ef10339 10/ (configure.ac src/Makefile.am): 
Apr 15 14:13:57 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Regenerate bindings when SPECS_PATH variable is configured
Apr 15 14:13:57 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Didier Villevalois <didier@didier.local>
Apr 15 14:16:42 <ptitjes> mickey|bs: am I supposed to see new APIs in specs.git ?
Apr 15 14:16:59 <ptitjes> mickey|bs: or you wanted I regenerate them only for changes of current APIs ?
Apr 15 14:17:23 <ptitjes> mickey|bs: I suspect the opimd APIs are not yet described in XML, am I wrong ?
Apr 15 14:19:11 <Dave> ptitjes
Apr 15 14:19:24 <ptitjes> hello Dave, how are you ?
Apr 15 14:21:03 <toggles_w> Dave: did you break the build last night?
Apr 15 14:23:07 <Dave> Err, no :P
Apr 15 14:25:01 <ptitjes> boom
Apr 15 14:25:11 <dos1> usage of opimd is a one big mistery for me
Apr 15 14:25:27 <dos1> is somewhere some python code which is using opimd?
Apr 15 14:25:30 <dos1> paroli uses it?
Apr 15 14:25:39 <dos1> s/paroli uses/does paroli use/
Apr 15 14:25:39 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: does paroli use it?
Apr 15 14:26:07 <TAsn> dos1, iirc it uses a weird custom query language ;[
Apr 15 14:26:17 <TAsn> (which in my opinion sucks badly)
Apr 15 14:26:47 <dos1> TAsn: i noticed. by is somewhere some example of using that weird language? :P
Apr 15 14:26:49 <Dave> opimd is vaporware
Apr 15 14:27:14 <dos1> Dave: opimd is. and it works. looks like it works ugly, but it works.
Apr 15 14:27:15 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 14:27:22 <playya> ptitjes, i only corrected gypsy.posistion.positionChanged
Apr 15 14:27:36 <TAsn> dos1, hm.. i remember seeing something about it. try the german site it had or maybe the google summer of code description page
Apr 15 14:27:42 <TAsn> can't remember exactly where I saw it at.
Apr 15 14:28:09 <TAsn> dos1, btw, I think having the query language look more like SQL is a good idea.
Apr 15 14:28:24 <Dave> dos1, did you create opimd overnight?
Apr 15 14:29:05 <toggles_w> Dave: he couldn't have, you broke the build!
Apr 15 14:29:06 <dos1> Dave: http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=framework.git;a=tree;f=framework/subsystems/opimd;hb=HEAD
Apr 15 14:29:10 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 14:29:42 <Dave> :D
Apr 15 14:29:54 <Dave> April Fools?
Apr 15 14:29:55 <Dave> oh wait!
Apr 15 14:29:58 <TAsn> dos1, I'm calling for a rewrite! (half kidding)
Apr 15 14:30:46 <ptitjes> guys are there any log for this channel ?
Apr 15 14:30:52 <dos1> TAsn: http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=openmoko-gsoc2008.git;a=tree;f=opimd;h=9b0a12f773dec891aab8af78cc56e3bf1b78dda6;hb=HEAD
Apr 15 14:30:53 <TAsn> ptitjes, yeah
Apr 15 14:30:55 <dos1> there is something more
Apr 15 14:30:57 <TAsn> I log it 24/7
Apr 15 14:30:58 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 14:31:03 <ptitjes> cool
Apr 15 14:31:25 <dos1> settings_manager.py and test_client.py
Apr 15 14:31:26 <TAsn> ptitjes, need anything?
Apr 15 14:31:34 <bumbl> TAsn = Big Brother
Apr 15 14:31:39 <ptitjes> please could you get me a discussion I had yesterday evening with mickeyl - I had not enabled logging here
Apr 15 14:31:39 <bumbl> but don't tell anyone
Apr 15 14:31:43 <TAsn> bumbl, duh. ;]
Apr 15 14:31:58 <ptitjes> or yesterday afternoon don't remember
Apr 15 14:32:09 <ptitjes> this was something like:
Apr 15 14:32:12 <ptitjes> 1) ....
Apr 15 14:32:21 <ptitjes> :D
Apr 15 14:32:25 <TAsn> ptitjes, hm... gimme a wanted command ;]
Apr 15 14:32:38 <TAsn> bah, will look for it manually, though next time prepare a grep ;]
Apr 15 14:33:11 <ptitjes> grep -A30 -B30 "1\)"
Apr 15 14:33:21 <ptitjes> :D
Apr 15 14:33:40 <dos1> ptitjes: if you would type "#openmoko-cdevel" in google, you should find logs ;)
Apr 15 14:33:47 <ptitjes> oh
Apr 15 14:34:04 <dos1> even on first position :D
Apr 15 14:35:05 <ptitjes> thank you
Apr 15 14:35:41 <TAsn> nvm then?
Apr 15 14:36:01 <ptitjes> TAsn: yeah thanks anyway
Apr 15 14:36:18 <TAsn> cool.
Apr 15 14:37:52 <TAsn> dos1, have you committed the new theme?
Apr 15 14:38:53 <dos1> TAsn: http://209.85.129.132/search?q=cache:X3rwXO3KlmIJ:www.neo1973-germany.de/wiki/pyPimd+pypimd&cd=1&hl=pl&ct=clnk&client=iceweasel-a
Apr 15 14:38:59 <dos1> TAsn: no
Apr 15 14:39:11 <TAsn> dos1, then... ;]
Apr 15 14:39:17 <TAsn> yeah, that's the one I was talking about.
Apr 15 14:40:41 <dos1> soo
Apr 15 14:40:41 <dos1> FIND FROM Messages
Apr 15 14:40:46 <dos1> should work
Apr 15 14:40:54 <dos1> :x
Apr 15 14:41:05 * dos1 is booting his Neo
Apr 15 14:41:53 <PaulFertser> neomilium: schematics have most testpoints as well as all usb information
Apr 15 14:42:14 <TAsn> I should make pygoodpimd that uses pypimd though just s/SELECT/FIND/ the query text before calling pypim and therefore will have proper interface.
Apr 15 14:42:15 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 14:43:29 <dos1> yeah, looks like it's only s/SELECT/FIND :D
Apr 15 14:45:17 <dos1> hmm
Apr 15 14:45:22 <dos1> a{sv}
Apr 15 14:45:37 <dos1> what is it? :x
Apr 15 14:46:04 <morphis> heyho
Apr 15 14:46:34 <mickey|bs> yo
Apr 15 14:46:59 <dos1> hey
Apr 15 14:47:09 <dos1> heh, i really should read more about dbus
Apr 15 14:49:10 <bumbl> morphis: huhu
Apr 15 14:51:56 <neomilium> PaulFertser, thx for replying. Which ones schematics are you talking about ?
Apr 15 14:52:37 <TAsn> dos1, yeah, you should, this seems like a dictionary of string to variants iirc.
Apr 15 14:52:42 <TAsn> (I should as well)
Apr 15 14:53:24 <TAsn> btw, I believe many people worked hard to making sql the way it is, no need to reinvent the wheel.
Apr 15 14:53:48 <TAsn> anyhow I'm off working out.
Apr 15 14:53:49 <TAsn> ciao.
Apr 15 14:53:58 <bumbl> hmm /me has to read a tutorial on how to do relations with sqlite
Apr 15 14:54:30 <TAsn> ok, nvm I'm still here
Apr 15 14:54:38 <TAsn> it's just that my pc clock is WAY off.
Apr 15 14:54:41 <TAsn> fixing it...
Apr 15 15:00:26 <PaulFertser> neomilium: i'm talking about official published schemes. I'm afraid i'm of no help as to giving direct instructions on where to solder best. There're testpoints on traces going to bluetooth module, but you'll need to fit some usb hub there to attach both your device and usb.
Apr 15 15:00:53 <PaulFertser> neomilium: http://people.openmoko.org/joerg/schematics/GTA02/
Apr 15 15:02:48 <mwester> Greetings Earthlings!
Apr 15 15:03:54 <mwester> gurugentoo:  yes, the kernel is mis-labeled... that too shall be fixed, but at a cost (we'll have an SHR-specific kernel recipe rather than the FSO one).
Apr 15 15:07:56 <neomilium> PaulFertser, ok we are talking about same schematics and testpoints are directly connect to usb from CPU
Apr 15 15:08:39 <PaulFertser> neomilium: yes, and to usb from BT too
Apr 15 15:11:10 <neomilium> PaulFertser: BT seems to not be connected to same usb...
Apr 15 15:12:04 <neomilium> It seems to be connected using PIO
Apr 15 15:13:49 <neomilium> So, if I want a "real" usb and be able to use external connector, I think I must add hub between MCU usb and mini-usb connector
Apr 15 15:16:07 <dos1> well
Apr 15 15:16:23 <dos1>   File "/usr/lib/python2.6/site-packages/framework/subsystems/opimd/pimd_messages.py", line 586, in check_query_id_ok
Apr 15 15:16:23 <dos1>     if not num_id in self._queries:
Apr 15 15:16:23 <dos1> NameError: global name 'num_id' is not defined
Apr 15 15:16:25 <dos1> opimd :/
Apr 15 15:16:55 <PaulFertser> neomilium: BT is connected to the other usb port, as real as anything.
Apr 15 15:16:56 <mickey|bs> "num_id" ?
Apr 15 15:18:01 <dos1> mickey|bs: when doing GetResult or GetResultCount with Messages
Apr 15 15:20:05 <dos1> mickey|bs: looks like Messages are broken at all
Apr 15 15:20:07 <ptitjes> mickeyl: I locally regenerated from the specs, only org.freesmartphone.Network has changed (added)
Apr 15 15:20:09 <dos1> Contacts works
Apr 15 15:20:21 <ptitjes> mickeyl: do you want I push that anyway ?
Apr 15 15:21:08 <neomilium> PaulFertser : I can't see second usb port on MCU
Apr 15 15:21:14 <ptitjes> mickeyl: also I locally added opim to the specs's Makefile SUBDIRS, and it generate some APIs but I fear these are not uptodate at all
Apr 15 15:21:14 <mickey|bs> ptitjes: there must be a BlinkSeconds IIRC
Apr 15 15:21:22 <mickey|bs> in the LED interface. is it present?
Apr 15 15:21:32 * ptitjes looks
Apr 15 15:22:08 <neomilium> In Schematics_Freerunner-GTA02_A5-A7cumulative_public_RC0.pdf page 2, I only see 1 usb port
Apr 15 15:22:09 <ptitjes> there is only set_blinking
Apr 15 15:22:38 <ptitjes> SetBlinking(on_duration:int, off_duration:int)
Apr 15 15:23:26 <mickey|bs> hmm, strange 
Apr 15 15:23:31 <mickey|bs> need to catch the train now
Apr 15 15:23:34 <mickey|bs> commit anyways
Apr 15 15:23:39 <mickey|bs> we can regenerate again :)
Apr 15 15:23:41 <mickey|bs> l8er
Apr 15 15:23:48 <dos1> :/
Apr 15 15:24:37 <PaulFertser> neomilium: what about DN0 DP0?
Apr 15 15:24:59 <Gorbusch> hi
Apr 15 15:25:26 <PaulFertser> neomilium: in the USB block
Apr 15 15:26:21 <neomilium> PaulFertser : I got it but did you think that is D+ and D- for second usb ?
Apr 15 15:26:34 <PaulFertser> neomilium: i think it's the first actually ;)
Apr 15 15:27:09 <PaulFertser> neomilium: follow the DN link to the bluetooth page and see for yourself
Apr 15 15:27:33 <neomilium> PaulFertser : and USB_D+ / USB_D- are DP1 / DN2 ?
Apr 15 15:27:53 <PaulFertser> neomilium: yes
Apr 15 15:28:11 <neomilium> PaulFertser : gotit !
Apr 15 15:29:47 <neomilium> PaulFertser : but my problem is always here : I have to cut connection between BT and MCU, and insert hub, isn't it ?
Apr 15 15:31:42 <PaulFertser> neomilium: yeah, looks like that. You can avoid cutting buy connecting your hub to bluetooth connector and bluetooth connector to the hub (yeah, that would be a very special hub :) ). I think you need to ask DocScrutinizer about the best way to actually use USB for internal devices.
Apr 15 15:34:23 <neomilium> PaulFertser : one word : thanks... Thanks a lot ! (yes I know that's more than one word...) ^^
Apr 15 15:34:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03didier 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r21ad9bb387c3 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: 
Apr 15 15:34:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Remove silly debug messages
Apr 15 15:34:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Didier Villevalois <didier@didier.local>
Apr 15 15:37:28 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03didier 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * rd5e258efe8dd 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: 
Apr 15 15:37:28 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Fix indentation on empty lines for better diff behavior
Apr 15 15:37:28 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Didier Villevalois <didier@didier.local>
Apr 15 15:38:52 <dos1> Dave: ok, you won
Apr 15 15:39:00 <dos1> opimd is, that's true.
Apr 15 15:39:04 <dos1> but it doesn't work :P
Apr 15 15:40:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03didier 07vala-dbus-binding-tool * r55a6bc5dd032 10/src/vala-dbus-binding-tool.vala: 
Apr 15 15:40:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Fix non-propagated generator error
Apr 15 15:40:39 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Didier Villevalois <didier@didier.local>
Apr 15 15:49:08 <Dave> :D
Apr 15 15:53:01 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r73d5346b1a84 10/framework/subsystems/odeviced/idlenotifier.py: 
Apr 15 15:53:01 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: idlenotifier: more debugging and error recovery in callback
Apr 15 15:53:01 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: This should help us to solve FSO bug #333.
Apr 15 16:10:54 <mickey|ICE875> budfive: please try to reproduce OM #2264 with the present abyss, which doesn't take care about FC. if it still crashes, then it's pretty safe to say it's the muxer implementation in the firmware.
Apr 15 16:15:57 <alphaone> hey maemo_VDVsx 
Apr 15 16:16:33 <maemo_VDVsx> hello alphaone 
Apr 15 16:17:04 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: How's it going?
Apr 15 16:17:57 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, fine thanks, with a lot of work :(
Apr 15 16:18:44 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: Oh, what kind of work?
Apr 15 16:19:36 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, my master thesis and some freelancer work :), and giving a hand also in GSoC
Apr 15 16:20:52 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: Cool, best of luck.
Apr 15 16:21:14 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: So you've got your hands in the Bluez HID proposal?
Apr 15 16:23:00 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, no, this was done by the bluez guys, I only notice that couple of weeks ago :)
Apr 15 16:24:22 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: Ah, okay
Apr 15 16:25:15 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: I was wondering if you had any intention of updating remoko so it works with Bluez4
Apr 15 16:25:19 <onen> alphaone: hallo
Apr 15 16:25:23 <alphaone> Or what your thought on that are.
Apr 15 16:25:33 <alphaone> onen: Hey. Changes will be in MS5.5
Apr 15 16:25:44 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, but is hard to make that proposal upstream code, a lot of problems will arise, I talked with Marcel (BlueZ main dev) in the past about that issue
Apr 15 16:25:49 <alphaone> onen: And as we already noticed you're fine :-)
Apr 15 16:26:05 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: Okay, I understand
Apr 15 16:26:38 <onen> alphaone: ok good. Wanted to ask your confirmation that I should be fine with my code (you know, want to avoid the stupid mistake I don't see when I re-read my code 1000s times)
Apr 15 16:26:50 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: But even as a separate project remoko doesn't work currently since bluez4 changed a lot wrt services.
Apr 15 16:27:11 <alphaone> onen: :-)
Apr 15 16:27:28 <alphaone> onen: Well, you can just test it with a bleeding edge image
Apr 15 16:28:05 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, yes, I know, I'm just waiting to a more stable distro, FSO or OM2009, I don't have much time these days to make more than one remoko version
Apr 15 16:28:32 <onen> alphaone: I am not sure to understand how things work. my phone uses an image from download.openmoko.org. unstable feed. Should your code appear there?
Apr 15 16:29:05 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: okay, I just wanted to check if you were considering it at all.
Apr 15 16:29:07 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, and I will also add some code from BlueMaemo, that is more stable and have a lot more features
Apr 15 16:29:21 <dos1> maemo_VFVsx: FSO, SHR and Om2009 are based on FSO
Apr 15 16:29:36 <dos1> maemo_VFVsx: so i think one version should work on they all
Apr 15 16:29:40 <alphaone> onen: Oh, I don't know. Should sometime...
Apr 15 16:29:56 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: okay, looking forward to it
Apr 15 16:30:27 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: What features did you add there?
Apr 15 16:30:30 <onen> alphaone: because I did an upgrade to test it... but the dbus still provides int... will try again
Apr 15 16:30:38 <onen> alphaone: thanks for your help on this :-)
Apr 15 16:31:04 * mickey|ICE875 announces that the FreeRunner is indeed a class B device
Apr 15 16:31:38 <dos1> mickey|ICE875: class B?
Apr 15 16:31:43 <mickey|ICE875> gprs class B
Apr 15 16:31:49 <mickey|ICE875> just got a call while I'm online
Apr 15 16:31:58 <mickey|ICE875> gprs stalled until i hung up
Apr 15 16:32:03 <mickey|ICE875> you see me still here
Apr 15 16:32:04 <mickey|ICE875> :)
Apr 15 16:32:09 <dos1> mickey|ICE875: yep. it works for me too
Apr 15 16:32:12 <dos1> with smses too ;)
Apr 15 16:32:19 <mickey|ICE875> excellent
Apr 15 16:32:31 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, reconnect from the device side, auto-connect to a specific device, support a lot of Mac OS versions, support ps3, and probably others, don't remember :)
Apr 15 16:33:02 <dos1> mickey|ICE875: and on FSO it works out of box, with SHR Settings :)
Apr 15 16:33:33 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, but they have a stable bluez-version on the system, is easier that way 
Apr 15 16:33:44 <mickey|ICE875> dos1: awesome. ~praise FSO ;)
Apr 15 16:33:52 <alphaone> dos1: SMS will always work
Apr 15 16:34:03 <alphaone> Call/GPRS is a different thing
Apr 15 16:34:27 <alphaone> onen: okay, then it's not in yet. You could try an FSO image
Apr 15 16:34:40 <alphaone> if the buildhost is building again...
Apr 15 16:34:54 <dos1> alphaone: ok. Call/GPRS works for me too ;)
Apr 15 16:34:59 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: Sounds cool :-)
Apr 15 16:35:09 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: They're still using bluez3, right?
Apr 15 16:35:45 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, yup
Apr 15 16:35:59 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, ah I also made cython binding, no more need for the remoko-server, and I also made some accelerometer controls for remoko, but I don't release this code because it only work with some kernels :(
Apr 15 16:36:21 <alphaone> maemo_VDVsx: Ah, okay
Apr 15 16:36:43 <alphaone> accelerometers should be much more stable nowadays
Apr 15 16:37:31 <dos1> maemo_VDVsx: yep, there was a change recently regarding accelerometers
Apr 15 16:37:48 <dos1> about ABS and REL
Apr 15 16:37:56 <onen> alphaone: ok. but openBmap package is only built in OM feed, not in FSO. no nice opkg install ;-)
Apr 15 16:38:12 <mwester> Are there any SHR apps that use the accelerometers?
Apr 15 16:38:37 <dos1> mwester: SHR apps?
Apr 15 16:38:44 <maemo_VDVsx> alphaone, you can see a small video here (warning this is my ugly face after 24 hours without sleep): http://codebits.sapo.pt/s/presentations/20
Apr 15 16:38:45 <alphaone> onen: Hmm
Apr 15 16:38:47 <dos1> in SHR there is openmoocow included ;)
Apr 15 16:38:56 <mwester> Yeah, that's not a real app.
Apr 15 16:38:57 <mwester> :)
Apr 15 16:39:30 <dos1> mokomaze worked well until change of kernel
Apr 15 16:39:48 <mwester> Right, that's what I was after.
Apr 15 16:40:15 <mwester> There's enough _new_ in the recent kernels, that trying to maintain backwards compat. may not be useful.
Apr 15 16:41:40 <mwester> If Ainulindale agrees, I would like to cut over to a 2.6.29-* kernel, and start cleanup of the builds, which would preclude SHR from building on earlier kernels, I'm afraid.
Apr 15 16:44:41 <mickey|ICE875> mwester: if it helps you, i would not mind calling the 2.6.29rcX already 2.6.29 as long as we can update it by adding a oe<N>
Apr 15 16:44:48 <mickey|ICE875> (once the real thing comes out)
Apr 15 16:45:12 <mickey|ICE875> increasing the N, that is
Apr 15 16:51:24 <CIA-75> SHR: 03seba.dos1 07shr-settings * r56a221a3a884 10/shr_settings_modules/shr_gps.py: [gps] (Michael Scherer) [PATCH 1/2] add a title to the satelite detail windows
Apr 15 16:51:31 <CIA-75> SHR: 03seba.dos1 07shr-settings * rf6bb299ed0bf 10/shr_settings_modules/shr_gps.py: [gps] (Michael Scherer) [PATCH 2/2] - add a quit button
Apr 15 16:52:06 <mwester> mickey|ICE875:  Thanks - I shall see what can be done to create such a kernel recipe -- the goal is to tie it to the proposed "stable" kernel that is being targetted by Nelson et al.
Apr 15 16:52:11 <CIA-75> SHR: 03seba.dos1 07shr-settings * ra3e5e3430cf3 10/shr_settings_modules/shr_gps.py: [gps] change window id in sattelite details
Apr 15 16:52:38 <TAsn> dos1
Apr 15 16:52:54 <dos1> TAsn: yep?
Apr 15 16:52:55 <TAsn> I want to debug my gps
Apr 15 16:53:09 <TAsn> what do I need to do in shr-settings? just leave 
Apr 15 16:53:12 * mwester hands TAsn a can of "Raid"
Apr 15 16:53:25 <TAsn> it on automatic and press the get sat data?
Apr 15 16:53:32 <TAsn> mwester, huh?
Apr 15 16:53:35 <dos1> TAsn: shr-settings, gps, Manual, On
Apr 15 16:53:47 <TAsn> ok, and then click that sat data button
Apr 15 16:53:51 <dos1> TAsn: no
Apr 15 16:53:57 <TAsn> or should I just wait for the list down there to update?
Apr 15 16:54:03 <dos1> firstly say, if something changed in bottom framer
Apr 15 16:54:08 <dos1> s/framer/frame/
Apr 15 16:54:08 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: firstly say, if something changed in bottom frame
Apr 15 16:54:13 <TAsn> i c.
Apr 15 16:54:22 <TAsn> this section of the settings app is very cryptic ;]
Apr 15 16:54:31 <TAsn> I suggest changing
Apr 15 16:54:37 <TAsn> Satellite details
Apr 15 16:54:46 <dos1> what to change?
Apr 15 16:54:48 <TAsn> to Additional Satellite details
Apr 15 16:54:52 <dos1> when it works, it works good
Apr 15 16:54:56 <dos1> ah, names
Apr 15 16:54:57 <dos1> ok
Apr 15 16:55:01 <mwester> TAsn:  bad joke, I am in a rather silly mood today.  (http://www.killsbugsdead.com/raid/)
Apr 15 16:55:03 <TAsn> so it will be clear it's not a must
Apr 15 16:55:05 <dos1> but...
Apr 15 16:55:14 <dos1> it's "details"
Apr 15 16:55:20 <TAsn> mwester, I'm not american so most of your jokes go by me. ;]
Apr 15 16:55:29 <dos1> so how it can be must?
Apr 15 16:55:29 <dos1> ;x
Apr 15 16:55:29 <TAsn> dos1, yeah, probably my name selection isn't the best either
Apr 15 16:55:47 <dos1> TAsn: oh
Apr 15 16:55:48 <TAsn> dos1, I meant a must for the info section
Apr 15 16:55:55 <mwester> TAsn:  :) then SC Johnson company has done a poor job of becoming multi-national!
Apr 15 16:56:04 <dos1> looks like my GPS isn't working now too
Apr 15 16:56:08 <dos1> kernel problem?
Apr 15 16:56:19 <TAsn> dos1, phew! I'm actually glad it's not just me ;]
Apr 15 16:56:33 <TAsn> mwester, oh, I know raid.
Apr 15 16:56:45 <mwester> How do I power on the GPS?  Or does the GPS app do that?
Apr 15 16:56:46 <TAsn> though I generally don't tend to keep a can nearby
Apr 15 16:57:01 <dos1> mwester: frameworkd do that
Apr 15 16:57:08 <mwester> I have a number of cans nearby... Wasps seem to like my house. :(
Apr 15 16:57:14 <dos1> apps request recourse in FSO
Apr 15 16:57:15 <TAsn> mwester, ;[
Apr 15 16:57:28 <TAsn> mwester, I think fso-gpsd asks for it automatically.
Apr 15 16:57:43 <mwester> Oh dear.
Apr 15 16:57:47 <dos1> fso-gpsd is other thing
Apr 15 16:57:55 <dos1> it's only combatibility layer
Apr 15 16:57:56 <mwester> Most recent SHR builds don't seem to have the GPS app 
Apr 15 16:58:10 <dos1> it ask when some gpsd app connect to it
Apr 15 16:58:15 <dos1> mwester: shr-lite or fat?
Apr 15 16:58:19 <mwester> fat
Apr 15 16:58:23 <dos1> hmm
Apr 15 16:58:26 <dos1> it should have tangogps
Apr 15 16:58:28 <dos1> and navit
Apr 15 16:58:30 <mwester> Nope
Apr 15 16:58:36 <dos1> maybe only icon is missing?
Apr 15 16:58:40 <mwester> But it doesn't have 10,000 little settings anymore.
Apr 15 16:59:03 <mwester> Yeah, icon is gone.
Apr 15 16:59:10 <TAsn> dos1, I'm going outside to make sure gps really doesn't work here
Apr 15 16:59:21 <mwester> Strange.
Apr 15 16:59:22 <TAsn> will tell you when I come back.
Apr 15 16:59:29 <mwester> tangogps.desktop exists.
Apr 15 16:59:33 <mwester> Why would it not show?
Apr 15 16:59:46 <dos1> mwester: because there is no correct category specified
Apr 15 16:59:46 <TAsn> mwester, check if the desktop icon exists
Apr 15 16:59:56 <TAsn> yeah, exactly what I was about to say.
Apr 15 17:00:00 <TAsn> dos1, ^
Apr 15 17:00:01 <mwester> no correct catagory?  
Apr 15 17:00:08 <mwester> GTK;Applications;PIM
Apr 15 17:00:28 <dos1> so it should be Application
Apr 15 17:00:28 * mwester doesn't know about complex things like GUIs. :(
Apr 15 17:00:29 * dos1 checks
Apr 15 17:00:30 <TAsn> anyhow, cya, gone checking gps.
Apr 15 17:00:34 <TAsn> and study ;]
Apr 15 17:00:40 <mwester> Er, sorry typo.
Apr 15 17:00:47 <TAsn> mwester, kernel hacking is way cooler anyway ;]
Apr 15 17:00:48 <mwester> Yes, it is Application
Apr 15 17:00:53 <mwester> TAsn:  and easier.
Apr 15 17:01:01 <dos1> so that's the problem
Apr 15 17:01:08 <dos1> it's Application, and it should be Applications
Apr 15 17:01:09 <dos1> ;)
Apr 15 17:01:19 <mwester> Did something change, then?
Apr 15 17:01:20 <TAsn> mwester, nah. ;]
Apr 15 17:01:27 <TAsn> though actually correct GUI design is hard.
Apr 15 17:01:29 <TAsn> very hard.
Apr 15 17:01:59 <mwester> They are all "Application" (singular), do they all need to be edited?
Apr 15 17:02:09 <dos1> yep
Apr 15 17:02:29 <dos1> mwester: i will commit new hack for shr-image, which fix that and doesn't bring all of those settings icons to desktop
Apr 15 17:07:50 <dos1> oh!
Apr 15 17:07:58 <dos1> opimd... i will give him another change
Apr 15 17:08:06 <soltys> hm ?
Apr 15 17:08:09 <dos1> on maillist just arrived mail with code snippets
Apr 15 17:09:13 <TAsn> dos1, ok, too cold to confirm ;]
Apr 15 17:09:14 <dos1> and it looks like i was doing it in wrong way
Apr 15 17:09:20 <dos1> that pypimd page is outdated
Apr 15 17:09:40 <dos1> (i think)
Apr 15 17:13:58 <Deubeuliou> # echo host > /sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-ohci/usb_mode   <-- I found this to enable usb host mode but this file doesn't exists (shr-unstable). has it moved ?
Apr 15 17:14:23 <Deubeuliou> (there is no such file as usb_mode in /sys/devices/platform's tree)
Apr 15 17:14:24 <dos1> Deubeuliou: usb host doesn't work now on shr-unstable
Apr 15 17:14:31 <Deubeuliou> ow :(
Apr 15 17:14:37 <Deubeuliou> ok
Apr 15 17:14:44 <dos1> Deubeuliou: when it works, there is nice gui for enabling it in SHR Settings
Apr 15 17:14:53 <TAsn> Deubeuliou, kernel updates kill it often.
Apr 15 17:15:10 <PaulFertser> TAsn: killed it once
Apr 15 17:15:20 <TAsn> PaulFertser, then what's the issue now?
Apr 15 17:15:30 <dos1> TAsn: now it's that once
Apr 15 17:15:31 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 17:15:42 <TAsn> and what was the issue last time?
Apr 15 17:15:48 <dos1> TAsn: frameworkd
Apr 15 17:16:06 <TAsn> i c.
Apr 15 17:16:11 <Deubeuliou> yes I saw the interface.
Apr 15 17:16:39 <PaulFertser> TAsn: yeah, looks like that. ATM is the time where kernel update by Balaji disabled usbmode. Michael re-enabled it (and it should be enabled in the latest kernels) a week ago, but some say it still doesn't work. I'm yet to build a cable to confirm it myself.
Apr 15 17:17:04 <TAsn> PaulFertser, www.dealextreme.com
Apr 15 17:17:08 <TAsn> they probably have something there
Apr 15 17:17:14 <TAsn> just order for 0.5$
Apr 15 17:17:14 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:17:56 <PaulFertser> TAsn: I can build it in 30 minutes, i bought all the components necessary (including enhancing it to y-cable) more than a month ago.
Apr 15 17:18:49 <TAsn> PaulFertser, oh, you are just being lazy, I c.
Apr 15 17:19:01 <PaulFertser> TAsn: yeah, always am.
Apr 15 17:19:13 <PaulFertser> :(
Apr 15 17:19:34 <TAsn> ^^
Apr 15 17:19:50 <PaulFertser> TAsn: the thing is that i've no idea how to practically use it, it seems i don't really need it (probably yet).
Apr 15 17:20:45 <TAsn> PaulFertser, I only used it to attach an external keyboard/mouse (so far)
Apr 15 17:21:00 <TAsn> will probably use it to add a proper wifi dongle when I'll need one.
Apr 15 17:21:08 <dos1> keyboard and pendrive
Apr 15 17:24:29 * mwester chaulks up another "LOSE!"  for the Om kernel developers.  :(
Apr 15 17:24:46 <Dave> :\
Apr 15 17:25:03 <mwester> Hopefully Nelson won't be so fast to accept "Let's break the world!" sorts of patches.
Apr 15 17:25:55 <mwester> But, just in case, I have a branch ready to push out to the "knife" kernel repo so that we have a recent-but-stable kernel again.
Apr 15 17:26:23 <lindi-> mwester: sounds good
Apr 15 17:27:21 <mwester> PaulFertser:  is there anything in the kernel commit from Belaji that would indicate what critical problem he was solving by disabling that functionality?
Apr 15 17:27:22 <lindi-> maybe i should get rid of separate /boot so that i can fit more different kernels to uboot menu
Apr 15 17:28:32 <Dave> How goes the kernel dev these days?
Apr 15 17:29:08 <mwester> That would depend on whom you ask.
Apr 15 17:29:53 <lindi-> mwester: have you thought about having automated testing for things like "does bluetooth work after suspend"?
Apr 15 17:30:06 <mwester> I personally think that it's at a critical junction right now, where Om can either focus on the community, or continue on their "hell-bent-for-leather" hell-ride to upstream merger.
Apr 15 17:30:18 <mwester> The former I support, the latter will result in an instant fork.
Apr 15 17:30:36 <mwester> lindi-:  Yes, automated testing has been on my mind for a while now.
Apr 15 17:31:17 <mwester> With a debug board and some testing instrastructure, we can actually do a lot to search for regressions.
Apr 15 17:31:45 <lindi-> mwester: we could also measure power consumption in a controlled manner
Apr 15 17:32:19 <mwester> In the short term, we need to start with something more basic; if we can simply collect the defconfigs for all the various distros, and do an automated build after every commit upstream, that would flush out a lot of potential problems right away.
Apr 15 17:32:46 <bumbl> Ainulindale: how "good" is the new unstable?
Apr 15 17:33:04 <dos1> Ainulindale: looks like there is some GPS problem
Apr 15 17:33:05 <mwester> bumbl:  I'm not Ainulindale but I find the latest unstable to be better than testing.
Apr 15 17:33:14 <mwester> (except for the GPS problem!)
Apr 15 17:33:24 <dos1> I agree with mwester ;)
Apr 15 17:33:26 <bumbl> which gps problem?
Apr 15 17:33:38 <dos1> looks, like GPS doesn't work
Apr 15 17:33:41 <dos1> but it's not verified
Apr 15 17:33:42 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 17:33:45 <bumbl> i have the unstable image before the actual unstable image working fine
Apr 15 17:33:48 <mwester> I can verify it is broken.
Apr 15 17:33:55 <dos1> bumbl: it's kernel change
Apr 15 17:33:58 <mwester> The GPS is sending data
Apr 15 17:34:09 <mwester> So I don't think it's a kernel issue.
Apr 15 17:34:16 <mwester> Same kernel worked a few days ago.
Apr 15 17:34:21 <dos1> so...
Apr 15 17:34:30 <dos1> GPS is sending data?
Apr 15 17:34:36 <dos1> so it's not broken
Apr 15 17:34:36 <dos1> ;)
Apr 15 17:34:42 <dos1> and there is no gps problem :)
Apr 15 17:34:52 <mwester> Apr 15 13:20:58 om-gta02 user.debug kernel: [46341.975000] rxerr: port=1 ch=0x00, rxs=0x0000000c
Apr 15 17:35:10 <mwester> That's an overrun from the GPS port -- the kernel is seeing data, clearly.
Apr 15 17:35:33 <mwester> Now how to debug the mass of python that is reading it, I do not know.  That's black magic.
Apr 15 17:36:06 <mwester> It's some incantation called "dbus", which is deep, dark, and incredibly laborious black magic.
Apr 15 17:36:18 <dos1> mwester: there are no changes with gps for last few days
Apr 15 17:36:19 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 17:36:30 <dos1> except shr-settings
Apr 15 17:36:33 <mwester> dos1:  then what's broken?
Apr 15 17:36:39 <mwester> Ah, shr-settings...
Apr 15 17:36:52 <TAsn> dos1, something is broken~!
Apr 15 17:36:58 <dos1> but shr-settings doesn't have anything to say :P
Apr 15 17:37:00 <TAsn> I clearly don't have gps ;]
Apr 15 17:37:12 <mwester> Nor do I have gps, but my gps chip is streaming bits.
Apr 15 17:37:28 <dos1> mwester: you have to catch the fix ;p
Apr 15 17:37:31 <dos1> let's try with zhone
Apr 15 17:41:23 <dos1> mwester: after stopping frameworkd and powering gps manually from /sys
Apr 15 17:41:41 <dos1> i can't see anything in cat /dev/ttySAC2
Apr 15 17:41:53 <dos1> with /dev/ttySAC0 and /dev/ttySAC1 too ;p
Apr 15 17:42:02 <dos1> so my GPS isn't working on kernel sider
Apr 15 17:42:05 <dos1> s/sider/side/
Apr 15 17:42:07 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: so my GPS isn't working on kernel side
Apr 15 17:42:19 <mwester> Why would you see ttySAC2 - that's the console
Apr 15 17:42:31 <bumbl> pwned ;)
Apr 15 17:42:33 <dos1> ;D
Apr 15 17:42:45 <dos1> i wasn't sure which one is gps
Apr 15 17:42:45 <dos1> ;>
Apr 15 17:42:56 <dos1> but i checked every one
Apr 15 17:43:10 <dos1> rxerr: port=1 ch=0xb5, rxs=0x00000001
Apr 15 17:43:12 <dos1> isn't it error? :P
Apr 15 17:43:47 <mwester> Yes - you get that error every time the GPS starts, when it first sends data - either an overrun or a framing error.
Apr 15 17:44:05 <mwester> You'll have framing errors if you have not set the baud rate on the port correctly.
Apr 15 17:44:16 <mwester> You'll have overruns if nobody is listening to the port to read the data.
Apr 15 17:44:28 <dos1> mwester: but catting /dev/ttySAC1 only gives me prompt again
Apr 15 17:44:29 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 17:44:46 <mwester> Have you set the correct baud rate for the port?
Apr 15 17:45:00 <dos1> i didn't set anything
Apr 15 17:45:06 <dos1> it worked few days ago ;p
Apr 15 17:45:25 <mwester> Right, probably because soemthing else (when it was working) set the correct port parameters.
Apr 15 17:45:39 <dos1> so
Apr 15 17:45:46 <dos1> why isn't it setting it anymore?
Apr 15 17:45:53 <mwester> Exactly.
Apr 15 17:45:55 <dos1> as there wasn't any changes in frameworkd?
Apr 15 17:46:23 <dos1> s/wasn't/weren't/
Apr 15 17:46:23 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: as there weren't any changes in frameworkd?
Apr 15 17:46:36 * bumbl blames Dave 
Apr 15 17:47:03 * TAsn blames dave
Apr 15 17:47:07 <TAsn> Dave*
Apr 15 17:47:07 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:47:43 <bumbl> it is always a good idea to blame him ;)
Apr 15 17:48:01 <PaulFertser> mwester: To me that particular commit looks like code cleanup/generalisation. Probably, usbmode wasn't working before that anyway, i'm not sure yet. 70b36104ab8c03f5be6d03344214d09447d9d4a8
Apr 15 17:48:04 <TAsn> Dave, now after we got you, fix it.
Apr 15 17:49:39 <dos1> hmm
Apr 15 17:49:40 <dos1> so
Apr 15 17:49:43 * dos1 blames Dave
Apr 15 17:49:58 <dos1> until he will blame me ;D
Apr 15 17:50:22 <TAsn> dos1, commit the theme!
Apr 15 17:50:23 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:50:34 <dos1> i still don't have package for that :P
Apr 15 17:50:44 <dos1> s/that/it/
Apr 15 17:50:45 <TAsn> you are a bitbake expert, package it! ;]
Apr 15 17:50:45 <bzzbot> dos1 meant: i still don't have package for it :P
Apr 15 17:50:57 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:51:08 <dos1> i am a bitbake expert?
Apr 15 17:51:18 <TAsn> you said you are yourself
Apr 15 17:51:22 <TAsn> (you said it yesterday)
Apr 15 17:51:26 <dos1> you are talking about someone else ;D
Apr 15 17:51:27 <dos1> no
Apr 15 17:51:28 <dos1> i said
Apr 15 17:51:30 <dos1> only
Apr 15 17:51:32 <TAsn> well not exactly that but similar enough.
Apr 15 17:51:32 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:51:48 <dos1> that i think i now know enough to package libmokoui2
Apr 15 17:51:59 <TAsn> and you FAILED doing that ;]
Apr 15 17:52:13 <dos1> but it's still my method - change something and check, if it works
Apr 15 17:52:17 <dos1> if not - change again
Apr 15 17:52:19 <dos1> and check
Apr 15 17:52:20 <dos1> ;)
Apr 15 17:52:30 <TAsn> sounds like OM kernel dev
Apr 15 17:52:34 <TAsn> though they commit in the middle
Apr 15 17:52:41 <TAsn> before steps 1 and 2
Apr 15 17:52:41 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:52:45 <dos1> TAsn: i know what to do, i don't have time now for it
Apr 15 17:52:47 <dos1> :(
Apr 15 17:52:51 <PaulFertser> TAsn: no! 
Apr 15 17:52:55 <TAsn> dos1, I'm j/k don't worry. ;]
Apr 15 17:53:05 <TAsn> PaulFertser, concerning what?
Apr 15 17:53:13 <PaulFertser> TAsn: OM kernel devs.
Apr 15 17:53:16 <dos1> i'm not worring - it was about package
Apr 15 17:53:17 <dos1> :P
Apr 15 17:53:29 <TAsn> btw I meant between 1 and 2.
Apr 15 17:53:41 <TAsn> PaulFertser, I was just kidding.
Apr 15 17:54:02 <PaulFertser> TAsn: i know, but still ;)
Apr 15 17:54:08 <TAsn> I know nothing about kernel dev in general and OM kernel dev in specific ;]
Apr 15 17:54:23 <TAsn> PaulFertser, I'm just sad because of usbmode and gps ;]
Apr 15 17:55:23 <PaulFertser> TAsn: usbmode i guess is a minor issue in the end, just needs someone knowledgable. And gps is... Well, serial problems plagued OM kernel for long time, no wonder something is still there...
Apr 15 17:55:40 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:55:52 <TAsn> Actually I'll be glad to find out it's a kernel issue and not an hw one
Apr 15 17:56:01 <TAsn> I was starting to think my gps is broken!
Apr 15 17:56:18 <PaulFertser> TAsn: already tried nspy?
Apr 15 17:56:24 <TAsn> nspy?
Apr 15 17:56:49 <PaulFertser> TAsn: mwester's intrusive patch for low-level serial debugging. Discussed to death already ;)
Apr 15 17:57:05 <TAsn> PaulFertser, no, though that's probably because I'm only half here
Apr 15 17:57:11 <TAsn> I'm actually studying as we speak.
Apr 15 17:57:12 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 17:57:22 <PaulFertser> TAsn: what are you studying?
Apr 15 17:57:41 <TAsn> Automata and formal languages I have a test soon.
Apr 15 17:57:57 <TAsn> And also calculus, I have h.w and test in that as well.
Apr 15 17:58:13 <Dave> gcode!
Apr 15 17:59:06 <PaulFertser> TAsn: interesting stuff. Good luck with your tests! :)
Apr 15 17:59:12 <TAsn> thanks.
Apr 15 17:59:17 <TAsn> Calculus is great
Apr 15 17:59:22 <TAsn> though automata sucks badly.
Apr 15 17:59:39 <TAsn> Though I think it's just a bad course, not sure about the topic in general.
Apr 15 18:02:04 <PaulFertser> TAsn: (calculus) is it a hardcore course with all the complex proofs etc? Or just enough for an engineer to get by?
Apr 15 18:02:18 <TAsn> hardcore
Apr 15 18:02:57 <TAsn> the course for engineers is called 'differential and integral algebra' here.
Apr 15 18:04:09 <PaulFertser> TAsn: cool :)
Apr 15 18:04:22 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 18:04:33 <lindi-> avr assembler is odd. if i write sbci r31, hi8(-(buf)) everything works but if I omit the inner parenthesis i get Error: can't resolve `0' {.bss section} - `buf' {.bss section} -- Error: expression too complex
Apr 15 18:06:23 <PaulFertser> TAsn: the most hardcore algebra book i have is by B.L. Van Der Waerden. So hardcore i can't understand it. I never started to study calculus because i failed to understand/learn naive set theory and algebra :)
Apr 15 18:07:07 <TAsn> what's naive set theory? (I don't know the english terms) and what do you mean by algebra?
Apr 15 18:07:08 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 18:07:45 <TAsn> PaulFertser, lucky for me, I'm only in my second year, so the books I have read so far were easy.
Apr 15 18:09:08 <PaulFertser> TAsn: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Naive_set_theory not as complex as ZF axiomatic, but still complex enough to be hard to understand/remember all the proofs/facts/relations/terms. And i didn't touch topology even.
Apr 15 18:10:10 <TAsn> PaulFertser, it's regular set theory, right?
Apr 15 18:10:26 <PaulFertser> TAsn: algebra is sets, numbers, groups, fields, spaces, rational functions, various fields, algebras etc.
Apr 15 18:10:48 <PaulFertser> TAsn: regular set theory, but without hardcore axiomatic groundings.
Apr 15 18:10:50 <bumbl> hmm speeking about differential algebra - i should bring that stuff to memory again for the exam on friday
Apr 15 18:11:02 <TAsn> bumbl, ;]
Apr 15 18:11:09 <TAsn> anyhow I'm off studying.
Apr 15 18:11:14 <PaulFertser> TAsn: still many interesting theorems can be explained in it.
Apr 15 18:11:18 <TAsn> I'm just wasting my time all day long ;]
Apr 15 18:11:29 <TAsn> PaulFertser, I don't have time to read about it atm. ;[
Apr 15 18:11:48 <PaulFertser> TAsn: i bet i perform better in wasting my time. ;)
Apr 15 18:12:03 <TAsn> PaulFertser, lol, I'm not sure about that.
Apr 15 18:12:16 <bumbl> hmm wasting time is easy
Apr 15 18:12:39 <bumbl> just switch on the tv set and act as if it would be interesting
Apr 15 18:13:04 <lindi-> it's also very nice that if I write "add r24, 1" gcc will happily accept it and it'll mean "add r24, r1"
Apr 15 18:13:18 <lindi-> i should of course have used "subi r24, lo8(-(1))"
Apr 15 18:13:34 <lindi-> since on AVR you can only substract with immediate, not add
Apr 15 18:14:04 <lindi-> no wonder my pointer arithmetic was not really working well :P
Apr 15 18:15:17 <PaulFertser> bumbl: can't do that, gave up watching tv more than a year ago.
Apr 15 18:16:21 <PaulFertser> lindi-: looks like you having quite a fun with assembly :) No, really fun, i see that now :) subi ftw!
Apr 15 18:17:56 <PaulFertser> lindi-: i'd expect pseudo-instruction support from avr-as though.
Apr 15 18:18:03 <bumbl> PaulFertser: well as i am a news addictive i enjoy watching cnn world
Apr 15 18:18:15 <bumbl> every now and then
Apr 15 18:19:14 <PaulFertser> bumbl: Nah, i've enough news on radio. Russian TV channels are so fucking biased that i can't watch news there at all, and bbc news are usually so depressive :-/
Apr 15 18:19:33 <bumbl> + there are some really good movies behind the mainstream shit
Apr 15 18:19:50 * PaulFertser enjoys that most hardcore mathematics is absolutely useless in RL
Apr 15 18:19:55 <bumbl> well depressive news are "good" news
Apr 15 18:20:33 * bumbl thinks that 99% of all the math taught within regular education here is useless in RL
Apr 15 18:20:47 <Dave> :D
Apr 15 18:21:27 <bumbl> only interesting things are basics, percentage and probability + some basic trigonometry
Apr 15 18:21:34 <PaulFertser> To the best of my knowledge, regular education never teaches maths.
Apr 15 18:21:42 <bumbl> ;)
Apr 15 18:21:53 <bumbl> it at least tries to
Apr 15 18:23:04 <bumbl> but hey 
Apr 15 18:23:11 <bumbl> math is the universal language
Apr 15 18:23:24 <bumbl> which all the other sciences need
Apr 15 18:25:08 <bumbl> [offtopic] could it be that windows does not use utf-8?
Apr 15 18:25:48 <bumbl> because i sent an email to a windows user and when he replied the text i wrote looked really nasty
Apr 15 18:27:12 <PaulFertser> bumbl: quite so. E.g. russian windows version uses 8-bit microsoft-specific encoding by default, though notepad can show utf-8 if it's already there.
Apr 15 18:29:50 <PaulFertser> bumbl: most engineering tasks don't require _real_ maths. Read http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Field_(mathematics) for an example of very basic algebra structure, that no engineer really needs to know about.
Apr 15 18:32:21 <CIA-75> freesmartphone.org: 03jluebbe 07framework * r516f48762ab7 10/ (2 files in 2 dirs): odeviced: fix idlenotifier
Apr 15 18:41:44 <onen> bumbl: if I recall correclty, windows uses utf-16
Apr 15 18:42:45 <Dave> Onen!
Apr 15 18:42:48 <Dave> :)
Apr 15 18:43:48 <onen> Dave: hey how are you doing?
Apr 15 18:44:08 <PaulFertser> onen: only for vfat, iirc
Apr 15 18:45:11 <onen> bumbl: PaulFertser: well, yes I think this is on the file system. so for the email this is probably not the cause of the problems.
Apr 15 18:45:26 <onen> PaulFertser: under NTFS too, isn't it?
Apr 15 18:45:54 * mmontour disagrees with PaulFertser about engineers and "real maths", e.g. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Coding_theory
Apr 15 18:47:53 <PaulFertser> onen: no idea :)
Apr 15 18:49:03 <bumbl> onen: even windows xp?
Apr 15 18:50:39 <bumbl> PaulFertser: well when talking about sciences i usually mean physics, chemistry, to some extent biology, psychology, and sociology (could one call that science?)
Apr 15 18:52:12 <onen> bumbl: iirc, yes. afaik no windows systems uses utf-8 for filesystem
Apr 15 18:53:00 <onen> bumbl: wikipedia -> UTF-16 is the native internal representation of text in the Microsoft Windows 2000/XP/2003/Vista/CE
Apr 15 18:53:50 <bumbl> onen: hmm well - the text just looks damn ugly
Apr 15 18:53:59 <bumbl> PaulFertser: http://xkcd.com/435/
Apr 15 18:54:03 <bumbl> i love this one
Apr 15 18:55:10 <dent> bumbl: good one :)
Apr 15 18:55:56 <bumbl> one of the best imo
Apr 15 19:06:16 <tetheth> indeed a good one bumbl
Apr 15 19:07:55 <lindi-> PaulFertser: well, i managed to capture data from calypso now with software uart :)
Apr 15 19:08:01 <lindi-> PaulFertser: no i only need to figure out how to write it to flash
Apr 15 19:11:00 <bumbl> hmm does anyone know who everslick is?
Apr 15 19:11:10 <bumbl> everslick: ping
Apr 15 19:11:29 <bumbl> as acording to geoip he is near me
Apr 15 19:11:39 <bumbl> bzz fix
Apr 15 19:18:53 <doxy2> hi y'all
Apr 15 19:19:47 <doxy2> how could i debug a failing init? it doesn't create a log file afaik
Apr 15 19:19:59 <doxy2> so i'm i'm getting "spawning too fast"
Apr 15 19:20:12 <Dave> terve
Apr 15 19:20:30 <fredrin> D A V E ! 1 one
Apr 15 19:20:38 <Dave> Hallo :]
Apr 15 19:26:26 <bumbl> PaulFertser: http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg18524911.600-13-things-that-do-not-make-sense.html?page=1
Apr 15 19:39:18 <Arhuaco> Hello PaulFertser :-) Do you know of a published rootfs with xf86-video-glamo?
Apr 15 19:42:21 <Arhuaco> I guess I should also use Debian experimental and build the driver... or download it in binary form from somewhere.
Apr 15 19:45:08 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: no, i don't know of any rootfs. But i think lindi- can provide you his binaries, they should even run under OE-based system.
Apr 15 19:45:54 <lindi-> Arhuaco: new Xorg entered unstable last week, no experimental needed anymore
Apr 15 19:46:34 <lindi-> Arhuaco: just debootstrap debian and chroot to that if you want to test it from some other distro
Apr 15 19:46:55 <Arhuaco> lindi-: thanks. I think I should use this opportunity to start using Debian.
Apr 15 19:47:04 <Arhuaco> lindi-: thanks. I think I should use this opportunity to start using Debian (On the FR I mean :-) ).
Apr 15 19:48:12 <Arhuaco> lindi-: Any special xorg.conf?Could you send it to me if needed?
Apr 15 19:53:20 <lindi-> Arhuaco: with hal age you don't need xorg.conf </hype>
Apr 15 19:53:30 <lindi-> Arhuaco: but i have http://iki.fi/lindi/openmoko/xorg.conf
Apr 15 19:53:59 <Arhuaco> lindi-: Thanks :-) I will debootstrap now.
Apr 15 19:55:32 <mwester> NOTE: Handling BitBake files: \ (6462/6496) [99 %]ERROR: Could not include required file linux.inc 
Apr 15 19:55:36 <mwester> Grrrrrrrr~
Apr 15 19:57:04 * mwester remembers why he used to use a "checkout compiler" when developing code on a woefully underpowered minicomputer several thousand years ago...
Apr 15 19:57:38 <mwester> We need a "stupidity" checker for bitbake, that doesn't take forever...
Apr 15 19:58:04 <TAsn> mwester, if you are lazy/smart
Apr 15 19:58:21 <TAsn> adding the "-b file.bb" flag
Apr 15 19:58:27 <bumbl> lindi-: even with hal you need a xorg.conf
Apr 15 19:58:28 <Zorkman> opkg is managing to crash my fr each time it tries to upgrade navit
Apr 15 19:58:31 <Zorkman> this is somethingnew :)
Apr 15 19:58:32 <TAsn> doesn't check the bitbake files
Apr 15 19:58:44 <TAsn> nor does it install dependencies though ;\
Apr 15 19:58:50 <bumbl> at least if you graphic driver is not the default one (nv vs. nvidia)
Apr 15 19:58:53 <TAsn> but still I use it all the time ;]
Apr 15 19:58:55 <bumbl> (ot on the moko)
Apr 15 19:59:22 <TAsn> Zorkman, opkg's days are numbered.
Apr 15 19:59:30 <TAsn> it's too unstable ;]
Apr 15 19:59:56 <mwester> opkg is horrible.
Apr 15 19:59:59 <mwester> kill it.
Apr 15 20:00:16 <mwester> (someone has dpkg working with OE)
Apr 15 20:00:34 <TAsn> mwester, isn't dpkg terribly slow?
Apr 15 20:01:00 <mwester> TAsn:  not as slow as when opkg seg faults.
Apr 15 20:01:00 <TAsn> we need a fast and light package manager that uses deb2.0 packages. (same is ipks)
Apr 15 20:01:01 <bumbl> mwester: what do you say to the cpufreq wip patch
Apr 15 20:01:06 <TAsn> mwester, touche.
Apr 15 20:01:24 <bumbl> hot or not?
Apr 15 20:01:45 <TAsn> ok it's settled then, we need a time and place for opkg's execution.
Apr 15 20:02:10 <mwester> bumbl:  not until we have a stable kernel.  (I'm intrigued, but will not even look at it further until we have a reasonalbe kernel for SHR (and other distros))
Apr 15 20:08:06 <bumbl> mwester: ok
Apr 15 20:18:30 <lindi-> bumbl: why do I need xorg.conf?
Apr 15 20:19:14 <TAsn> lindi-, new xorg auto detects doesn't it.?
Apr 15 20:24:09 <bumbl> lindi-: because xorg autodetects i have nvidia and uses the nv module
Apr 15 20:24:17 <bumbl> (on the desktop, not the neo)
Apr 15 20:24:26 <bumbl> because xorg devs thought
Apr 15 20:24:45 <bumbl> hey that shitty non working nv module is better than a more or less working nvidia driver
Apr 15 20:24:55 <bumbl> (nv does not work properly on my laptop)
Apr 15 20:27:10 <ingi> Hi, I'm having problem building shr-unstable (since today), this is what I get:
Apr 15 20:27:11 <ingi> > ERROR: '[]' RDEPENDS/RRECOMMENDS or otherwise requires the runtime entity 'shr-image' but it wasn't found in any PACKAGE or RPROVIDES variables
Apr 15 20:27:11 <ingi> > NOTE: Runtime target 'shr-image' is unbuildable, removing...
Apr 15 20:27:11 <ingi> > Missing or unbuildable dependency chain was: ['shr-image']
Apr 15 20:27:11 <ingi> and I have no idea how to fix that.
Apr 15 20:27:12 <ingi> Hints are welcome :-)
Apr 15 20:28:09 <ingi> I've tried with 'make clobber'
Apr 15 20:29:02 <ingi> I've tried with 'bitbake -v -DDD -i', parse, and rebuild, but always the same NO Provider stuff
Apr 15 20:32:21 <mwester> delete your shr-unstable directory; then do "make update-shr-unstable" to re-create it.
Apr 15 20:32:52 * PaulFertser just confirmed that the cable he soldered is good enough as usb mass storage device works with some september kernel
Apr 15 20:33:48 * mwester never doubted, since PaulFertser did his own SMT soldering for the buzzfix stuff.
Apr 15 20:34:26 <PaulFertser> mwester: actually, i did the bass fix, the buzzfix was done by my coworker :(
Apr 15 20:34:38 <mwester> still...
Apr 15 20:35:06 * mwester bets he's one of the very few here that has ever soldered to tube sockets.
Apr 15 20:36:12 <gurugentoo> mwester: aka vacuum tube?
Apr 15 20:36:18 <mwester> yep
Apr 15 20:36:47 <gurugentoo> I can't say I've done that!
Apr 15 20:37:00 <gurugentoo> maybe I should make an amp
Apr 15 20:37:17 <gurugentoo> to compliment my chip amp
Apr 15 20:37:33 <mwester> 500W linear RF amplifier, built from Television sweep tubes...
Apr 15 20:37:44 <ingi> mwester: I did that today as well, but to be safe I did it again now, but same problem occurs! 
Apr 15 20:38:04 <mwester> ingi:  you broke it!
Apr 15 20:38:29 <ingi> mwester: I try both 'make shr-unstable-image' and 'cd shr-unstable; make image', same results
Apr 15 20:38:32 <gurugentoo> mwester: what advantage would tubes give you over solid state?
Apr 15 20:39:15 <PaulFertser> mwester: confirmed, never needed to solder that old stuff. BTW, at moscow polytechnical museum there's an old computer (soviet Ural, vacuum-tubes based); two cool guys re-implemented ALU and RAM with modern components (FPGA, registers etc) and attached input-output devices of Ural to it. Even wrote an assembler translator for that beast ;) 
Apr 15 20:39:18 <mwester> ingi:  cd shr-unstable; make setup-machine-om-gta02
Apr 15 20:39:32 <mwester> then ". ./setup-env"
Apr 15 20:39:38 <mwester> then "bitbake shr-image"
Apr 15 20:39:51 <ingi> mwester: must have broken it because of multiple builds each day for the last two weeks, must say it's working very well on my phone now, WiFi ok, GPRS w. ppp ok, GPS OK. 
Apr 15 20:40:31 <ingi> mwester: maybe it's time for a fresh download/compile/... :-)
Apr 15 20:41:08 <mwester> gurugentoo:  not much with modern semiconductors, except for very very high power applications.  The big issue IMO is that tubes work on very high voltage and low current, which makes wiring and connections easier, and power supplies more practical.
Apr 15 20:41:18 <ingi> mwester: I've tried the 'bitbake shr-image' too, it just says: 
Apr 15 20:41:18 <ingi> > ERROR: Nothing PROVIDES 'shr-image'
Apr 15 20:41:27 <ingi> I must have broken it badly...
Apr 15 20:41:44 <mwester> ingi:  sounds like you are not cd'd to the right directory
Apr 15 20:42:07 <mwester> you need to do ". ./setup.sh" first, and all that must be done in the shr-unstable directory
Apr 15 20:45:26 <ingi> mwester: I promise you that I do '. ./setup-env' (NB no '.sh'), before I do 'bitbake shr-image', all in shr-unstable dir. 
Apr 15 20:46:16 <mwester> Ok.  Did you check the log from the "make setup-shr-unstable" to see if it had any messages like "hangup" in it?
Apr 15 20:49:53 <Ainulindale> ingi: did you make update?
Apr 15 20:49:59 <Ainulindale> We applied the recent change of OE
Apr 15 20:50:05 <Ainulindale> renamed packages to recipes
Apr 15 20:50:19 <ingi> mwester: no hangup!, everything is reported to be 100%
Apr 15 20:50:39 <mwester> ingi:  did you delete shr-unstable?
Apr 15 20:50:53 <ingi> Ainulindale: I've also tried the 'make update' and received a lot of updates for OE as you mentioned :-)
Apr 15 20:51:25 <ingi> mwester: I've done 'rm -rf shr-unstable' multiples times, before every 'make update-shr-unstable' :-)
Apr 15 20:52:49 <ingi> Ainulindale: I'll do another one now, just to be safe, hope I'm not going to be blocked for so many connection/downloading attempts ... :-)
Apr 15 20:54:23 <ingi> same same... (hmmm)
Apr 15 20:55:10 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: mwester: confirmed usb-host working with the latest 901d73fe51f33032 kernel. So, Michael re-enabled it and it just works (provided one uses a new sysfs path).
Apr 15 20:55:48 * TAsn <-- kernel newbie
Apr 15 20:55:52 <TAsn> after that has been said
Apr 15 20:55:58 <PaulFertser> alphaone: Are you the one to ask to use a new kernel path to enable usb host mode? ;)
Apr 15 20:56:00 <TAsn> PaulFertser, what causes all those path changes all the time?
Apr 15 20:56:15 <Arhuaco> PaulFertser: Great. I think we don't have the bug in trac but it's great to know we don't need to add it!
Apr 15 20:56:17 <PaulFertser> alphaone: s^/sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-ohci/usb_mode^/sys/devices/platform/s3c-ohci/usb_mode^
Apr 15 20:56:30 <alphaone> PaulFertser: Can you comment in the patch?
Apr 15 20:56:45 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: exactly why i soldered a cable today.
Apr 15 20:56:58 <alphaone> PaulFertser: does FSO already provide a function to switch?
Apr 15 20:56:59 <PaulFertser> alphaone: sorry? Which one?
Apr 15 20:57:35 <PaulFertser> alphaone: hm, doesn't it? ;)
Apr 15 20:57:56 <PaulFertser> alphaone: i was sure it does, but i did everything by hand to be sure i don't face some FSO problem :)
Apr 15 20:58:00 <Arhuaco> FaulFertser: Duh? :-)
Apr 15 20:58:07 <alphaone> PaulFertser: Haha
Apr 15 20:58:32 <alphaone> PaulFertser: http://trac.freesmartphone.org/ticket/395#comment:1
Apr 15 20:58:35 <alphaone> PaulFertser: http://trac.freesmartphone.org/ticket/395
Apr 15 20:59:19 <PaulFertser> alphaone: sorry, i should have found it myself :-/ I comment on that right now.
Apr 15 20:59:31 <alphaone> PaulFertser: Great, thanks
Apr 15 21:01:43 <ingi> Ainulindale: my newly created conf/local.conf has 'local.conf:BBFILES += "${TOPDIR}/shr/openembedded/packages/*/*.bb"', shouldn't it be 's/packages/recipes/' according the relocation of recipes ?
Apr 15 21:02:01 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: here's an example of dmesg output, i guess it's too verbose. Should i open a bug or should i better do a patch like those recent patches to move debugging messages to an appropriate level?
Apr 15 21:02:04 <ingi> s/'local.conf://
Apr 15 21:02:05 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: http://pastebin.com/m1f305fb1
Apr 15 21:02:05 <bzzbot> ingi meant: Ainulindale: my newly created conf/local.conf has BBFILES += "${TOPDIR}/shr/openembedded/packages/*/*.bb"', shouldn't it be 's/packages/recipes/' according the relocation of recipes ?
Apr 15 21:04:28 <ingi> Ainulindale: nope sorry, wrong path...
Apr 15 21:05:35 <Arhuaco> PaulFertser: It would be great if you can do it :-) I'm working on #2255 BTW.
Apr 15 21:08:10 <Arhuaco> PaulFertser: I'll put a note in the wiki now with the new sysfs path... it deserves a post to the ML I think as it might help someone.
Apr 15 21:08:30 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: i doubt it, everybody knows how to use "find".
Apr 15 21:08:44 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: i'll tweak wiki, don't worry, just code 2255 ;)
Apr 15 21:09:06 <PaulFertser> Arhuaco: i'll notify dos1 (the author of SHR settings about the change).
Apr 15 21:09:07 <Arhuaco> PaulFertser. Thanks :-)
Apr 15 21:11:34 <ingi> Ainulindale, mwester: OTH, when s/packages/recipes/ in conf/local.conf AND conf/site.conf, bitbake bakes a lot more..., before it complained about NO provider within seconds..., and it's definitely baking now!
Apr 15 21:14:23 <ingi> mwester: the http://shr.bearstech.com/Makefile still has 'packages' instead of 'recipes' for BBFILES, maybe it needs to be updated to reflect the OE relocation of recipes ?
Apr 15 21:15:02 <mwester> Hmm....
Apr 15 21:15:18 <mwester> Yep, looks like it.
Apr 15 21:15:49 <mwester> We need the supreme ruler of SHR to fix that one...
Apr 15 21:15:53 <mwester> :p
Apr 15 21:16:13 <ingi> I'm still sorry if I broke anything... 
Apr 15 21:16:22 <mwester> hehe!
Apr 15 21:19:09 <TAsn> PaulFertser, I don't think dos1 will care (other than the fact it'll work) I mean, he uses the framework iface iirc.
Apr 15 21:19:14 <TAsn> not sure though.
Apr 15 21:19:46 <ingi> mwester: It's building normally now, all 4 cores on my AMD Phenom 9950 Quad almost up to 100% each (I have PARALELL_MAKE="-j 4" and BB_NUM_THRDS = "4" ) :-) 
Apr 15 21:19:48 <PaulFertser> TAsn: nope, there's no FSO interface ;)
Apr 15 21:20:12 <TAsn> PaulFertser, i c. ;]
Apr 15 21:20:22 <mwester> Its part of the shr-settings app.
Apr 15 21:21:28 <mwester> Easy fix, but if you want it to still run on older kernels, suddenly a simple "echo "1" " becomes a massive tangle of "if then elseif otherwise if maybe if try this and see if" kind of cruft, all for no good reason at all IMO.
Apr 15 21:21:54 <TAsn> mwester, yep.
Apr 15 21:22:05 <TAsn> backwards compatibility is a bitch
Apr 15 21:22:11 <TAsn> I don't think he should.
Apr 15 21:22:20 <mwester> What about the gta01?
Apr 15 21:23:06 <mwester> We're very close, and I believe Nelson is serious about giving the community a working stable gta02 kernel soon.... but I think the gta01 is way, way behind.
Apr 15 21:23:09 <TAsn> mwester, he should support gta01.
Apr 15 21:23:34 <mwester> Right, so we need at least 2.6.24 and 2.6.29 support.
Apr 15 21:23:40 <PaulFertser> mwester: that's why it should be handled in framework. And btw, i think that maintaining sane kernel-userspace interface is more important than backwards compatibility.
Apr 15 21:24:13 <mwester> I think Ainulindale should kill off the curent testing, and jump right to unstable as the only supported thing.
Apr 15 21:24:27 <TAsn> mwester, yes.
Apr 15 21:24:29 <TAsn> to both.
Apr 15 21:24:33 <mwester> PaulFertser:  Why am I not surprised by that.  And I'm not going to take the bait either. ;)
Apr 15 21:24:45 <PaulFertser> mwester: hehe :)
Apr 15 21:24:56 <TAsn> PaulFertser, what causes all those path changes all the time?
Apr 15 21:25:38 <mwester> MmmMMMpppMMMMmmmmmMM!!!!!!!    <--- me attempting to not answer TAsn, and instead keep his ranting to himself. :-D
Apr 15 21:26:00 <TAsn> mwester, it's not ranting
Apr 15 21:26:09 <TAsn> I'm actually asking about the technicality involved ;]
Apr 15 21:26:10 <PaulFertser> TAsn: various reasons. Mostly the fact that they reflect internal structures of driver dependencies and that for example was really needed to do in .24 -> .28 transition.
Apr 15 21:26:25 <TAsn> mwester, now that's a good answer! ^
Apr 15 21:26:27 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 21:26:31 <TAsn> PaulFertser, thanks a lot.
Apr 15 21:26:37 <PaulFertser> TAsn: gps pwron -> power_on change was for the sake of consistency with other devices.
Apr 15 21:26:54 <TAsn> PaulFertser, and was well appreciated.
Apr 15 21:27:02 <TAsn> pwron was a terrible idea ;]
Apr 15 21:27:08 <mwester> Yes.
Apr 15 21:27:31 <PaulFertser> TAsn: this last one was due to the driver renaming (was s3c2410-ohci, but as it can be used with other s3c family chips, like s3c-6410) it was renamed to s3c-ohci.
Apr 15 21:27:38 <mwester> So all in all, we can also say what PaulFertser has not -- which is that most off the transition issues are caused by poor planning and poor thinking up front.
Apr 15 21:27:47 <mwester> And that in turn was caused by 
Apr 15 21:27:53 <mwester> lack of focus by Openmoko.
Apr 15 21:27:59 <TAsn> mwester, lol.
Apr 15 21:28:11 <TAsn> you take every opportunity you get to bash Openmoko inc.
Apr 15 21:28:12 <TAsn> ;]
Apr 15 21:28:43 <mwester> I see no point in apologizing for them, or dumping the blame on individuals who were only following Sean's orders.
Apr 15 21:28:53 <PaulFertser> mwester: i agree. Somewhat. But the other thing is that users wanted fancy features while kernel wasn't ready yet. Because of improper priorities of OM.
Apr 15 21:29:06 <mwester> Yep.
Apr 15 21:29:22 <mwester> hanging wallpaper before the carpenters have finished.
Apr 15 21:29:46 <mwester> But that is behind us now.
Apr 15 21:30:47 <mwester> We shall have to update NO more sysfs paths, I expect, other than those changes that come from kernel.org as the changes go upstream, and come back down to us.
Apr 15 21:33:20 <lindi-> mwester: how about also supporting legacy sysfs paths for a while?
Apr 15 21:33:51 <mwester> lindi-:  I'm not sure what you mean -- fso/shr should, or the kernel should offer compat. links?
Apr 15 21:33:59 <lindi-> mwester: kernel
Apr 15 21:34:08 <lindi-> mwester: i'm just wondering if it would make sense
Apr 15 21:34:27 <mwester> Not sure.
Apr 15 21:35:43 <mwester> I guess it depends, but I think that we could maintain a set of compat. patches to whatever kernel comes from upstream, so that users can keep their user-space as-is and swap between the stable kernel and the new upstream at will.  That would be good for everyone involved.  Then a next release of the user-space could fix the sys paths, and we coudl drop the patches....
Apr 15 21:35:45 <mwester> Just a thought.
Apr 15 21:35:58 <mwester> And way too early, and perhaps too optimistic.
Apr 15 21:37:16 <lindi-> yep
Apr 15 22:53:52 <ptitjes> mickeyl: 
Apr 15 22:54:41 <ptitjes> mickeyl: oups... please, could you comment on my last mail asap on the fso-standards ML ?
Apr 15 23:32:53 <arg0> anyone know how to fix this error when build fso-paroli?
Apr 15 23:33:06 <arg0> *building
Apr 15 23:33:08 <arg0> ERROR: QA Issue: No GNU_HASH in the elf binary:
Apr 15 23:41:20 <ptitjes> Ainulindale: hello
Apr 16 00:17:43 <mwester> The .desktop files in SHR are a mess.
Apr 16 00:17:49 <mwester> Who's in charge of that?!
Apr 16 00:24:42 <ptitjes> mwester: no idea :(
Apr 16 00:29:08 <raster> dunno
Apr 16 00:30:29 <raster> all e does is load them
Apr 16 00:30:34 <raster> and display them according to contents
Apr 16 00:30:43 <raster> and what the system applications menu files says
Apr 16 00:30:50 <raster> illumes launcher is realyl simplisitc
Apr 16 00:30:55 <raster> but it works
Apr 16 00:31:03 <raster> i need to make one thats much better tho
Apr 16 01:04:01 <mwester> Everyone is asleep. :(
Apr 16 01:04:42 <Arhuaco> Not everyone :-)
Apr 16 01:05:04 <mwester> Are you on this side of the pond, then, or just a nightowl?
Apr 16 01:05:13 <Arhuaco> GMT-5. :-)
Apr 16 01:05:18 <mwester> Ah.
Apr 16 01:06:05 <mwester> I just added linux-openmoko-2.6.29_git.bb to the OE repo; need Angus or mickeyl to merge that to the FSO 5.5 branch.
Apr 16 01:06:45 <Arhuaco> Oh, great.
Apr 16 01:10:47 <mwester> I did it that way rather than just add the recipe to the SHR repo; call it an experiment.  (I'd rather see SHR recipes and patches move into OE, but that needs the cooperation of the FSO branch owners).
Apr 16 01:11:49 <mwester> BTW, is Angus' nick nytowl  ?
Apr 16 01:11:58 <Arhuaco> yes, it is.
Apr 16 01:12:09 * mwester needs to write up a cheat sheet to keep all this sorted
Apr 16 01:12:25 <Arhuaco> :-) I'm sorry for contributing to the mess.
Apr 16 01:12:40 <mwester> It's looking very promising lately :)
Apr 16 01:14:56 <mwester> Mr. nytowl: ping!
Apr 16 01:15:33 <mwester> Can you please look at commit 9a690f4a8733bbeeba62ff28ae38ff7f869e4b05 in OE, and merge to the FSO branch if it looks ok to you?  Thanks!
Apr 16 01:15:59 * mwester goes off to see what else can be cleaned up in the SHR repo, and moved off to OE.
Apr 16 01:20:30 <mwester> Ainulindale:  we need to make a few changes to the SHR Makefile -- move the rm_work from auto.conf to local.conf, please -- and I'm not sure if the shr-testing BBFILES setting is correct (does it also need to be recipes?)
Apr 16 01:25:16 <mwester> nytowl:  Sorry, the proper commit is the one on the OE server, of course:  http://cgit.openembedded.net/cgit.cgi?url=openembedded/commit/&id=fb7eba513b2d59c33163bd380019a4cabc8b6782
Apr 16 01:28:20 <Dave> :o
Apr 16 01:31:24 <mwester> Darn, that's nice!   :)   The framework wastes very little traffic setting up the GSM.
Apr 16 01:39:19 <mwester> dos1: GPS data is gushing into the kernel from the GPS; so any issue must be at the user-space level.
Apr 16 01:39:37 <mwester> dos1: I expect it might be tty settings or such.
Apr 16 01:54:22 <ptitjes> good night everybody
Apr 16 02:03:16 <mwester> dos1: GPS is working in the kernel; I had to run fso_gpsd in diag mode with a few options.  Seems to be some user-space issues, nothing wrong with kernel.
Apr 16 02:05:13 <Dave> How are you gentlemen?
Apr 16 02:05:16 <Dave> and raster
Apr 16 02:10:00 <mwester> I am poorly, Dave.  And how about you and your flock of mokos?
Apr 16 02:11:56 <Dave> Relatively perturbed.
Apr 16 02:11:59 <rozzin> Hi everybody.
Apr 16 02:13:57 * mwester just LOVES the git rebase command.  :)
Apr 16 02:14:10 <rozzin> I have a couple of SHR-dev questions....
Apr 16 02:15:08 <mwester> 3, 7, and 9 on alternate tuesdays <--- answers.
Apr 16 02:15:20 <mwester> Do they fit your questions? ;-)
Apr 16 02:15:26 <rozzin> Not at all.
Apr 16 02:15:40 <mwester> Oh darn.
Apr 16 02:15:57 <rozzin> But they work perfectly well as calibration-data :)
Apr 16 02:16:18 <mwester> The shr devs we like to blame things on are all asleep, but we'll be happy to listen (and point fingers at the Europeans)
Apr 16 02:17:01 <rozzin> I've started hacking on some feature-additions in
Apr 16 02:17:23 <rozzin> I've started hacking on some feature-additions in libframeworkd-phonegui-efl
Apr 16 02:18:14 <rozzin> before catching something about ophonekitd being rewritten in vala;
Apr 16 02:19:35 <rozzin> What's the status on that? I mean, as far as..., should I consider that library a dead end?
Apr 16 02:19:56 <rozzin> Or is it worthwhile submitting new-feature patches against it?
Apr 16 02:21:45 <mwester> rozzin:  you do need to speak with the folks in charge; they're sound asleep right now.  But my thinking is that new-feature patches are very welcome, as vala is not a short-term thing (there will be SHR releases, and probably more than one, between now and then.
Apr 16 02:21:47 <mwester> )
Apr 16 02:22:51 <rozzin> I guess I should just be hitting the mail-list ;)
Apr 16 02:23:28 <Dave> collaboration!
Apr 16 02:24:31 <rozzin> It looks like the normal SHR-hours here are during my work-hours, and I sort-of like to keep work and play partitioned-off from each other.
Apr 16 02:24:57 <mwester> rozzin:  you are in north or south america, I expect, then?
Apr 16 02:25:08 <rozzin> New England.
Apr 16 02:25:47 <mwester> Chicago area --- us folks on this side of the pond are a growing group, but still the minority.
Apr 16 02:25:50 <Toaster`> rozzin: We all feel your pain.  Getting a hold of them in the evening is tough
Apr 16 02:26:07 <mwester> Yeah, but the worst part is the mornings.
Apr 16 02:26:38 <mwester> They've been chatting and making decisions, and all that for hours by the time I get up, and I'm just not a morning person... :D
Apr 16 02:26:43 <rozzin> What about the mornings?
Apr 16 02:26:55 <rozzin> Ah.
Apr 16 02:27:14 <mwester> Except for DocScrutinizer -- he doesn't sleep.
Apr 16 02:27:36 <Dave> The bats do though :]
Apr 16 02:27:43 <rozzin> Me neither. Maybe that's part of why I went into software ;)
Apr 16 02:27:51 <DocScrutinizer> not at this time
Apr 16 02:28:33 <rozzin> This is what I'm working on, by the way:
Apr 16 02:28:33 <DocScrutinizer> they're out to fetch me some ultrastrong aspirine
Apr 16 02:28:35 <rozzin> http://www.hackerposse.com/~rozzin/weblog/VisualIDs/mobile-VisualIDs.html
Apr 16 02:28:48 <mwester> DocScrutinizer:  Ibuprofin
Apr 16 02:29:32 <DocScrutinizer> still waiting for 1000mg to take effect
Apr 16 02:29:41 <mwester> :(
Apr 16 02:29:59 <mwester> Are you quitting cafeine?
Apr 16 02:30:02 <mwester> sp?
Apr 16 02:30:48 <Dave> caffeine
Apr 16 02:31:07 <Dave> Joerg, more headaches?
Apr 16 02:31:12 <Dave> Are you getting sick again? :(
Apr 16 02:31:19 <rozzin> OK. Gotta go get groceries.... Thanks for the chatter :)
Apr 16 02:31:32 <DocScrutinizer> a maybe that's even a good idea
Apr 16 02:31:48 * DocScrutinizer going to prepare some coffee
Apr 16 02:40:40 * Dave has to eat his dinner
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Apr 16 02:59:57 2009