**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 02 02:59:57 2009
Jun 02 03:27:08 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: if gta02-core is about establishing the process, I think by sticking to a given (however good or nasty) case you're establishing exactly the same broken process that lead to death of gta03. Designing a device the right way should be a fundamentally different process
Jun 02 03:35:29 <DocScrutinizer> btw this is mostly applicable to my objections about using gta02 schem for "reference" as well
Jun 02 04:03:20 <DocScrutinizer> aaah, and just for curiousity: what's the new bits in case design, compared to EE design. OM did it both. So all the arguments for rebuilding PCB/schem wit small improvements/variations seems to apply as well for case design. 
Jun 02 04:07:02 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: it's just a question of resources. the more changes we introduce, the more work we need to handle and the more the whole thing costs. i hope that the results will be interesting enough that we can get more people interested and find financing for more ambitious plans after that.
Jun 02 04:08:35 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: new bits in case: need to find/improve software suite, develop process, find manufacturer, transfer the design to manufacturing, make prototypes. it's pretty similar to EE at that level.
Jun 02 04:09:11 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: what makes things more complex is that we have much less practical experience with ME than with EE.
Jun 02 04:10:18 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: but again, I don't want to exclude ME. if someone wanted to start making a new case right now, that would be great. and we could decouple the two projects since the gta02 design is the common denominator.
Jun 02 05:10:26 <schasch> good morning
Jun 02 05:11:22 <schasch> hom ca I turn WIFI on like "settings-application does in SHR?"
Jun 02 05:11:38 <schasch> how can I turn WIFI on like "settings-application does in SHR?"
Jun 02 05:11:49 <schasch> byconsole...
Jun 02 06:57:43 <Zorkman> schasch: mdbus -s org.freesmartphone.ousaged /org/freesmartphone/Usage org.freesmartphone.Usage.SetResourcePolicy WiFi Enabled
Jun 02 07:05:52 <mrmoku> mwester, hmm... kernel fails at staging helper...
Jun 02 07:16:31 <McKael> schasch, Zorkman: s/Enabled/enabled/
Jun 02 07:21:01 <methril> morning
Jun 02 07:23:34 <ptitjes> morning all
Jun 02 07:23:57 <ptitjes> mrmoku: should I now bitbake in shr-unstable again ?
Jun 02 07:25:17 <mrmoku> ptitjes, yep
Jun 02 07:25:32 <ptitjes> oki cool thanks for the great work
Jun 02 07:26:01 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: same error than before I see
Jun 02 07:27:22 <methril> i'm almost back
Jun 02 07:28:27 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, you had that before?
Jun 02 07:28:31 <Ainulindale> Yes.
Jun 02 07:28:31 <mrmoku> (with kernel)
Jun 02 07:28:58 <Ainulindale> With the patches, that is
Jun 02 07:29:05 <Ainulindale> If you try to build the normal one it builds IIRC
Jun 02 07:29:19 <mrmoku> It builds on my localhost (with the patches)
Jun 02 07:29:30 <Ainulindale> Hmmm weird
Jun 02 07:31:51 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: check screen
Jun 02 07:32:09 <ptitjes> mrmoku: can I rm -rf the shr-oemerge tree ?
Jun 02 07:32:26 <Ainulindale> (yes)
Jun 02 07:32:42 <ptitjes> thank you
Jun 02 07:36:43 * mrmoku wonders why ptitjes has hard disk space problems on his brand new apple ;)
Jun 02 07:37:01 <ptitjes> because I allocated too much place for OE :)
Jun 02 07:37:09 <ptitjes> humm
Jun 02 07:37:12 <ptitjes> not enough
Jun 02 07:37:17 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, which part (check screen)?
Jun 02 07:37:19 <ptitjes> was what I wanted to say :)
Jun 02 07:37:25 <mrmoku> ptitjes, and remove shr-unstable/shr
Jun 02 07:37:46 <ptitjes> humm I like that ^^^
Jun 02 07:37:50 <ptitjes> :)
Jun 02 07:38:06 <Ainulindale> well I just did some other stuff mrmoku 
Jun 02 07:38:18 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: sh the staging helper by hand fails too
Jun 02 07:38:33 <Ainulindale> I'm checking mwester's commit to see what may fail
Jun 02 07:39:21 <ptitjes> mickey|sun: hello
Jun 02 07:39:36 <ptitjes> mickey|sun: where could I post you vala-0.7.4-fso1 ?
Jun 02 07:40:48 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, we have one additional thing in the local.conf on the buildhost... MACHINE_CLASS
Jun 02 07:41:15 <Ainulindale> well try without
Jun 02 07:41:24 <Ainulindale> I have to leave to work
Jun 02 07:41:33 <Ainulindale> In ten minutes or so
Jun 02 07:42:36 <Ainulindale> I just checked if " & { } were closed properly
Jun 02 07:42:42 <Ainulindale> Seems they are
Jun 02 07:44:06 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, ok
Jun 02 07:46:28 <schasch> Zorkman;McKael;thanx !!
Jun 02 07:52:26 * mrmoku is off for some work too
Jun 02 09:13:35 <SHR-WugBranler`> tracfeed: frameworkd.log attached to Ticket #502 <http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/attachment/ticket/502/frameworkd.log> || Ticket #502 (unable to restart frameworkd with working gsm or sim) created <http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/ticket/502>
Jun 02 09:14:36 <ptitjes> shoragan: hello
Jun 02 09:15:38 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, fails also with linux-openmoko-devel
Jun 02 09:18:04 <SHR-WugBranler`> tracfeed: Ticket #502 (unable to restart frameworkd with working gsm or sim) updated <http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/ticket/502#comment:1>
Jun 02 09:18:40 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: hmpf
Jun 02 09:19:03 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, and it does not fail on my localhost
Jun 02 09:19:42 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: some french guy has problem with do-patch on unstable
Jun 02 09:19:59 <Ainulindale> I'm stepping him through updates to check
Jun 02 09:20:08 <Ainulindale> Here it works as expected
Jun 02 09:20:12 <Ainulindale> So no complaints :-)
Jun 02 09:20:44 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, do-patch for unstable is no more ;)
Jun 02 09:20:49 <Ainulindale> I know
Jun 02 09:23:04 <pavelm> Hello, openmoko hackers.
Jun 02 09:23:18 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: still the same issues with latest for him it seems
Jun 02 09:23:19 <SHR-WugBranler`> tracfeed: Ticket #502 (unable to restart frameworkd with working gsm or sim) updated <http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/ticket/502#comment:2>
Jun 02 09:23:22 <Ainulindale> I told him to come here
Jun 02 09:23:28 <neomilium> Hi
Jun 02 09:23:28 <Ainulindale> neomilium: ok, mrmoku is the culprit :->
Jun 02 09:23:36 <Ainulindale> Normally what you have shouldn't happen
Jun 02 09:23:37 <pavelm> Could someone with recent kernel on pc try connecting to openmoko using minicom, then pulling the cable? It crashes my notebook and I'd like to know if I'm alone...
Jun 02 09:23:41 <Ainulindale> I tried it locally and it worked
Jun 02 09:23:50 <Ainulindale> Unfortunately I'm in the middle of Oracle SQL stuff
Jun 02 09:23:52 <Ainulindale> So I can't really help
Jun 02 09:24:08 <pavelm> (connecting to openmoko's bootloader)
Jun 02 09:24:11 <mrmoku> neomilium, what's your problem?
Jun 02 09:24:18 <Ainulindale> (pastebin neomilium! :-p )
Jun 02 09:24:34 <neomilium> I'm trying to build a SHR image following http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Building SHR
Jun 02 09:25:53 <neomilium> on "make setup", i had this error : http://pastebin.com/d1a53cf46
Jun 02 09:26:20 <mrmoku> upps... got disconnected
Jun 02 09:26:54 <mrmoku> neomilium, hmm
Jun 02 09:27:15 <mrmoku> let me try make setup
Jun 02 09:29:34 <neomilium> mrmoku : rerun "make setup" doesn't reproduce error...
Jun 02 09:30:27 <mrmoku> neomilium, yeah, because shr-unstable is already configured
Jun 02 09:31:04 <mrmoku> I'm trying 'mkdir shrtest; cd shrtest; wget http://build.shr-project.org/Makefile; make setup'
Jun 02 09:35:37 <neomilium> mrmoku, fine, i'll try to "make image" in shr-unstable
Jun 02 09:36:21 <mrmoku> neomilium, if you do make update-common ... do you get any updates?
Jun 02 09:37:30 <neomilium> mrmoku, compile run, do you want I stop it before running "make update-common" ?
Jun 02 09:38:24 <mrmoku> neomilium, no, just do it in another console
Jun 02 09:38:40 <mrmoku> neomilium, ok, have the same error...
Jun 02 09:39:07 <neomilium> "Already up-to-date."
Jun 02 09:41:08 <mrmoku> neomilium, and re-looking at your pastebin... it is shr-oemerge where I forgot to remove a do-patch :)
Jun 02 09:41:14 <mrmoku> so shr-unstable is fine
Jun 02 09:41:19 <MarcOChapeau> morning guys !
Jun 02 09:41:46 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: well remove oemerge :-)
Jun 02 09:42:00 <neomilium> mrmoku : perfect! i haven't any problem et you have the solution ^^
Jun 02 09:45:19 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, will do
Jun 02 09:46:39 <mrmoku> bbl
Jun 02 09:50:45 <Ainulindale> mrmoku|away: please tell me if you don't have the time I will :-)
Jun 02 09:54:57 <Ainulindale> mickey|sun: http://embeddedlinuxconference.com/elc_europe09/ <= did you see that?
Jun 02 09:55:18 <Zorkman> welcome :)
Jun 02 09:55:31 <ChristW> Good morning (it is for me :-) )
Jun 02 09:55:35 <ChristW> (thanks Zorkman...)
Jun 02 09:55:49 <ChristW> Almost a deja-vu here :-)
Jun 02 09:56:40 <Zorkman> Ainulindale or mrmoku|away, maybe you guys can help ChristW with a recipe to build navit? shr has it in his feeds
Jun 02 09:57:13 <Ainulindale> Well yes we could, what's the problem?
Jun 02 09:57:17 <Ainulindale> It's available on OE
Jun 02 09:57:41 <ChristW> First of all, I need to setup a system that will let me build source to run on a FreeRunner.
Jun 02 09:57:55 <Ainulindale> ChristW: We have several makefiles to do that
Jun 02 09:58:03 <Ainulindale> It might not be straightforward but this is how we build stuff
Jun 02 09:58:15 <ChristW> Ok, point me to them...
Jun 02 09:58:28 <Ainulindale> If you want to use what the SHR guys are using, I'd suggest download the makefile from build.shr-project.org
Jun 02 09:58:41 <Ainulindale> http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Building%20SHR <= then follow this link
Jun 02 09:59:01 <Ainulindale> Anyway right now I need to go & eat
Jun 02 09:59:04 <Ainulindale> I'll be back in two hours or so
Jun 02 09:59:11 <Ainulindale> Please queue your questions :-)
Jun 02 09:59:28 <ChristW> I will, have a good lunch :-)
Jun 02 10:00:56 <sylar_> hi, how can I switch to phonegui-efl2?
Jun 02 10:12:56 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, have some time now
Jun 02 10:13:23 <mrmoku> have some stuff to construct in the garden today... now is high noon break :)
Jun 02 10:15:30 <CIA-69> SHR: 03mok 07shr-makefile * r2d1657c4e98e 10/Makefile: Makefile: remove shr-oemerge
Jun 02 10:15:37 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, any news regarding the kernel?
Jun 02 10:16:34 <Zorkman> mrmoku: he's eating at the moment :)
Jun 02 10:18:12 <mrmoku> Zorkman, yeah... but said to queue questions ;)
Jun 02 10:18:43 <mrmoku> lets give Ainulindale some nice big and fat backlog to read... that will help him digest :P
Jun 02 10:18:44 <Zorkman> yeah i know, but just wanted to let you know in case you didn't read it
Jun 02 10:18:49 <Zorkman> hehe
Jun 02 10:21:42 <Zorkman> Ainulindale: when will i recieve my Fr back from germany? :P
Jun 02 10:28:13 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, ok... found it.... YOUR FAULT ;)
Jun 02 10:29:10 <mrmoku> TERMCMDRUN="${SCREEN_TERMCMDRUN}"
Jun 02 10:29:17 <mrmoku> remember you had ) instead of } there :P
Jun 02 10:30:04 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, btw... found it by opening the run script with vi and turn on syntax hilight :)
Jun 02 10:30:47 <Zorkman> news news, read all about it: "Ainulindale is trying to sabotage SHR!"
Jun 02 10:31:28 <mrmoku> looks like.... maybe Ainulindale got converted to h:1 ? :P
Jun 02 10:49:25 <Zorkman> anyone playing some dosbox games on the FR?
Jun 02 10:54:54 <lindi-> Zorkman: FR is armel?
Jun 02 10:59:07 <Zorkman> lindi-: i heard it is in the shr repositories
Jun 02 10:59:55 <lindi-> Zorkman: ah, indeed it is an x86 emulator
Jun 02 11:00:08 <lindi-> Zorkman: wouldn't it be be just easier to port the dos games to armel?
Jun 02 11:00:24 <Zorkman> lindi-: not for me to be frank....
Jun 02 11:01:24 <lindi-> Zorkman: what game is it? can you link to source?
Jun 02 11:02:12 <Zorkman> lindi-: my fr is still en-route after a buzz-fix, haven't tried any of the games; i was just wondering if some are playable on the Fr
Jun 02 11:05:28 <pavelm> Hello, everyone.
Jun 02 11:05:48 <pavelm> Any ideas on how to set up microphone on gta01 so that I can actually record sounds?
Jun 02 11:05:52 <pavelm> (I'm trying to get voip to work).
Jun 02 11:07:33 <pavelm> according to the documentation, alsactl -f /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/voip-handset.state  restore
Jun 02 11:07:44 <pavelm> ... should do the trick; but it does not :-(
Jun 02 11:08:55 <ChristW> I don't know if dictator works on gta01, but perhaps you can check its state files?
Jun 02 11:09:12 <pavelm> dictator state files?
Jun 02 11:10:09 <ChristW> dictator is a program that can capture audio into wave files (to record a phone conversation, for instance). AFAIK, it uses .state files for this. Perhaps you can check those out.
Jun 02 11:10:16 <pavelm> christw: find only finds .state files in /usr/share/openmoko/scenarios/ :-(
Jun 02 11:10:33 <ChristW> That's where they should be...
Jun 02 11:11:24 <ChristW> pavelm: Check http://www.opkg.org/package_207.html to see if it can help you...
Jun 02 11:11:49 <pavelm> hmm, capturehandset sounds like a place...
Jun 02 11:11:55 <pavelm> christw: thanks.
Jun 02 11:12:10 <ChristW> You're welcome...
Jun 02 11:13:59 <pavelm> christw: capturehandset actually does the trick. Thanks!
Jun 02 11:14:11 <ChristW> Great!
Jun 02 11:15:05 <pavelm> (as in... I can now record audio, but I need different settings for playback; but I should be able to figure that out.)
Jun 02 11:16:08 <lindi-> pavelm: playback via main speaker instead of headset?
Jun 02 11:16:57 <pavelm> lindi: First step would be "get any playback at all".
Jun 02 11:18:33 <lindi-> pavelm: stereoout.state?
Jun 02 11:21:25 <pavelm> lindi: stereout state works well for playback, but I need also capture.... there capturehandset works, but that does not allow any playback.
Jun 02 11:21:45 <lindi-> pavelm: well just modify it
Jun 02 11:22:12 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: for staging_helper?
Jun 02 11:22:39 <pavelm> lindi: Yes, that's what I'm trying. Unfortunately mixer settings are mess.
Jun 02 11:24:35 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, problem was it includes that var in run.staging_helper
Jun 02 11:25:27 <Ainulindale> Oh. Ok. Sorry then, feel free to flog me :-)
Jun 02 11:25:33 <Ainulindale> (I'm not worthy!=
Jun 02 11:25:40 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, next time we meet ;)
Jun 02 11:26:06 <mrmoku> instead of good german beer... I will bring some tar and some feathers :P
Jun 02 11:26:07 <Ainulindale> ouuuuh yeah
Jun 02 11:26:15 <ChristW> Ainulindale, already back?
Jun 02 11:26:17 <Ainulindale> Love me tender, love me true
Jun 02 11:26:19 <Ainulindale> ChristW: yeah
Jun 02 11:26:52 <ChristW> I had some (well, quite a few) failing patches on 'make setup'...
Jun 02 11:27:19 <Ainulindale> Don't care about that
Jun 02 11:27:26 <ChristW> Ah, ok...
Jun 02 11:27:32 <ChristW> Then I'll just 'make image'...
Jun 02 11:30:05 <ChristW> Is this worrying? Handling BitBake files: - (0980/6540) [14 %]no repo
Jun 02 11:32:03 <Ainulindale> Can't talk right now, sorry
Jun 02 11:51:59 <BillK> just managed to build shr-oemerge image and distro and see in
Jun 02 11:52:10 <BillK> the backlog its been removed ... to what?
Jun 02 12:00:06 <BillK> hmm, so do I rm -rf shr-unstable and mv shr-oemerge to shr-unstable or
Jun 02 12:00:28 <BillK> rm -rf the lot and start again? and is shr-testing still dead?
Jun 02 12:02:10 <mrmoku> BillK, rm -rf shr-unstable and mv shr-oemerge shr-unstable should work
Jun 02 12:02:32 <BillK> k, tkx - saves me 2 days compiling :)
Jun 02 12:04:01 <mrmoku> :)
Jun 02 12:04:34 <max_posedon> BillK, he wont
Jun 02 12:04:54 <max_posedon> OE require full rebuild if you change dir name
Jun 02 12:05:02 <max_posedon> (at least I had this problem)
Jun 02 12:05:08 <mrmoku> uhh... ouch :(
Jun 02 12:05:27 <mrmoku> BillK, link it then ;)
Jun 02 12:05:38 <max_posedon> mount -o bin better
Jun 02 12:05:46 <max_posedon> s/bin/bind
Jun 02 12:08:32 <ChristW> Does this sound familiar: ERROR: cannot concatenate 'str' and 'EnumValue' objects while parsing /home/christ/openmoko/sources/shr-testing/shr/openembedded/recipes/shr/shr-theme-gtk-e17lookalike_git.bb
Jun 02 12:09:04 <ChristW> (And a bunch of other errors concatenating str and EnumValue...)
Jun 02 12:11:25 <mrmoku> ChristW, yep seen that :P
Jun 02 12:11:47 <ChristW> Did you manage to solve them as well ;-)
Jun 02 12:11:49 <mrmoku> ChristW, which one are you trying to build? shr-testing, unstable or oemerge?
Jun 02 12:12:03 <ChristW> shr-testing at the moment.
Jun 02 12:14:45 <mrmoku> ChristW, do you have SRCPV = "${@bb.fetch.get_srcrev(d)}"
Jun 02 12:14:49 <mrmoku> in conf/site.conf
Jun 02 12:15:18 <mrmoku> ChristW, btw... I would build shr-unstable instead...
Jun 02 12:15:24 <ChristW> Yes, I do.
Jun 02 12:15:32 <ChristW> If that works, I will...
Jun 02 12:18:09 <mrmoku> ChristW, I guess there is something missing for the gtk theme in our testing branch
Jun 02 12:18:26 <mrmoku> though that branch is dead... you're better off building unstable right now
Jun 02 12:18:28 <ChristW> Ah, ok... so I build 'testing' for now?
Jun 02 12:18:38 <ChristW> That's what I meant...
Jun 02 12:19:09 <mrmoku> ChristW, build unstable... check though, if you have shr-unstable/shr ... if so 
Jun 02 12:19:16 <mrmoku> make update-common; rm -rf shr-unstable/shr
Jun 02 12:19:49 <ChristW> I don't have an 'shr' directory under 'shr-unstable'...
Jun 02 12:20:04 <ChristW> SO, I can just 'make image' in the shr-unstable directory?
Jun 02 12:21:13 <mrmoku> ChristW, yep
Jun 02 12:21:47 <ChristW> Mkay, I will, and wait a while :-)
Jun 02 12:22:03 <Marcello9001> huston we have a problem :-)
Jun 02 12:23:11 <Marcello9001> I have instaled a new distro neovento 5.6 but ...
Jun 02 12:23:15 <ChristW> The O2-tank blew up?
Jun 02 12:23:25 <Marcello9001> opkg  command not found
Jun 02 12:31:15 <ChristW> Ouch...
Jun 02 12:31:47 <Marcello9001> opkg  command not found :-(
Jun 02 12:31:58 <ChristW> Presumably, you can scp files to your FR?
Jun 02 12:32:14 <ChristW> Would it be of any use to (somehow) send you the binary of opkg?
Jun 02 12:32:29 <ChristW> Would this work cross-distro?
Jun 02 12:33:08 <mrmoku> Marcello9001, what did you expect? neovento is debian based :P
Jun 02 12:33:29 <mrmoku> so... you probably have apt-get and such
Jun 02 12:33:29 <ChristW> Ah, that explains a lot :-) Thanks for clearing _me_ up!
Jun 02 12:33:57 <Marcello9001> OOOOOO! apt-get!!!!
Jun 02 12:34:03 <Marcello9001> yessssss!
Jun 02 12:34:35 <Marcello9001> but whith apt-get I think is opossible install also opkg?
Jun 02 14:44:16 <mwester> mrmoku,  what kernel bb file are you building that is causing trouble?
Jun 02 14:44:42 <mrmoku> mwester, no... it was (as always) Ainulindale causing trouble
Jun 02 14:44:47 <mrmoku> all fine with the kernel :)
Jun 02 14:44:48 <Ainulindale> Peh! :-)
Jun 02 14:44:50 <mwester> oh dear
Jun 02 14:45:01 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: it's weird though that this uses the TERMCMDRUN
Jun 02 14:46:14 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, well... it just gets included in _some_ function in there... doesn't necessarily use that
Jun 02 14:46:40 <mrmoku> have to take a shower now... bbiab
Jun 02 14:48:31 <Ainulindale> mrmoku|away: well still weird :-)
Jun 02 15:04:50 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, what do we do with the unstable feed when the build finished?
Jun 02 15:04:54 <mrmoku> wipe it?
Jun 02 15:05:00 <mrmoku> or just rsync it over?
Jun 02 15:05:08 * mrmoku would rather wipe it
Jun 02 15:05:17 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: I'm comfortable with both
Jun 02 15:05:35 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, ok
Jun 02 15:06:09 <Ainulindale> You did the migration it's fair enough to let you choose your way
Jun 02 15:06:49 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, and then a political question :P
Jun 02 15:06:59 <mrmoku> do we build all archs before rsyncing?
Jun 02 15:07:13 <Ainulindale> Well build at least GTA01 yes
Jun 02 15:07:17 <Ainulindale> for eten it can wait
Jun 02 15:07:23 <Ainulindale> GTA01 shouldn't be long to build
Jun 02 15:07:31 <Ainulindale> There aren't that many differences
Jun 02 15:08:01 <bumbl> what migration?
Jun 02 15:08:02 <bumbl> ;p
Jun 02 15:08:05 <mrmoku> do we build the fat image too for gta01?
Jun 02 15:08:10 <mrmoku> or just the lite one
Jun 02 15:08:10 <bumbl> shr-uberunstable?
Jun 02 15:08:24 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: just the lite
Jun 02 15:08:44 <mrmoku> bumbl, shr-world-takeover
Jun 02 15:08:59 <bumbl> ah then
Jun 02 15:09:01 <bumbl> go on
Jun 02 15:09:58 <mrmoku> we're planning to hack all iphones over night... and then take a photo of the iphoners the moment they see SHR booting on their phone :P
Jun 02 15:13:10 <bumbl> mrmoku: their reaction: "our messiah has once again updated our phone - praise apple - praise steve - the usability rocks - the new design is genius"
Jun 02 15:14:04 <playya> and there are a lot apps in the new appstore. even free
Jun 02 15:16:36 <bumbl> steve donates us all those incredible apps
Jun 02 15:17:01 <bumbl> but why on earth has he decided to delete all those handy flashlight apps
Jun 02 15:19:21 <playya> and replaced them by useful apps
Jun 02 15:26:20 <morphis> heyho
Jun 02 15:26:35 <mrmoku> morphis, hey, how was your presentation?
Jun 02 15:27:07 <DocMobilizer> ok, online via pidgin and gprs for 23h now (just for ur info), bat=99% - now removing usb charger and see which suspend/standby time I'll get with 3 #chan and very short dim- and suspend-time
Jun 02 15:27:46 <Ainulindale> DocMobilizer has quit "Broken Pipe."
Jun 02 15:28:02 <DocMobilizer> huh?
Jun 02 15:28:03 <mrmoku> who has broken Doc's pipe?
Jun 02 15:28:24 <morphis> mrmoku: well, I hope everybody in the audience got an idea about what we are doing :)
Jun 02 15:29:37 <mrmoku> morphis, good thing... spread the words :-)
Jun 02 15:30:10 <DocScrutinizer> Ainulindale: c'mon enlighten me! I'm about to wait for impact of first coffee
Jun 02 15:30:32 <morphis> mrmoku: but I don't that I inspire somebody to help us :) they are all happy with there iPhones and WindowsMobile Phones ...
Jun 02 15:31:28 <DocScrutinizer> Ainulindale: so don't expect me to understand your french way of thinking right now ;-)
Jun 02 15:31:30 <mrmoku> morphis, well... someday they will understand ;)
Jun 02 15:31:35 <morphis> mrmoku: talk is available here: http://git.gravedo.de/?p=talks.git;a=summary 
Jun 02 15:31:45 <morphis> mrmoku: I hope so :) 
Jun 02 15:32:13 <jc4> morphis: iPhone, WM Phone and recently Android?
Jun 02 15:32:28 <morphis> jc4: no, nobody with android
Jun 02 15:33:06 <morphis> I would say 40% Symbian, 30% WinMe and they part some iPhones and some unknown feature phones
Jun 02 15:33:32 <morphis> but I was shoked when I asked them if they have ever heard something bout the Openmoko phone ...
Jun 02 15:33:47 <morphis> s/shoked/shocked/
Jun 02 15:33:48 <bzzbot> morphis meant: but I was shocked when I asked them if they have ever heard something bout the Openmoko phone ...
Jun 02 15:34:07 <max_posedon> morphis, what shocked your?
Jun 02 15:34:20 <max_posedon> that they don't know anything, or that they know smth?
Jun 02 15:35:13 <morphis> that they don't know anything about it 
Jun 02 15:35:20 <morphis> :9
Jun 02 15:35:22 <morphis> :)
Jun 02 15:35:27 <max_posedon> Its normal
Jun 02 15:35:34 <max_posedon> users shouldn't know about gcc
Jun 02 15:35:50 <max_posedon> neo is dev-platform forever
Jun 02 15:36:02 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: nah I was just mocking you :-)
Jun 02 15:36:06 <morphis> max_posedon: maybe, but every big news portal wrotes about it and I know, they all read it
Jun 02 15:36:21 <morphis> them
Jun 02 15:36:53 <max_posedon> I read news about many androids phones for example, but can't remind me any one except G1
Jun 02 15:36:57 <mrmoku> morphis, nice :)
Jun 02 15:37:18 <max_posedon> btw, about presentation, sometimes its better to keep pdf near tex)
Jun 02 15:38:02 <mrmoku> yeah... long time I did not read tex code :P
Jun 02 15:38:05 <morphis> max_posedon: you mean for other people who don't have latex installed :)
Jun 02 15:38:08 <jc4> max_posedon: recently, HTC magic might show up. lot's of commercial on TV here in Taiwan.
Jun 02 15:38:34 <bumbl> DocScrutinizer: after the buzzfix: is an other alsastate file needed/recommended?
Jun 02 15:38:37 <max_posedon> morphis, even for people who have latex, open pdf in tab in konqueror ; vs git magic + latex
Jun 02 15:38:44 <max_posedon> + start separte app
Jun 02 15:38:50 <morphis> :)
Jun 02 15:39:07 <max_posedon> ! Package graphics Error: File `openmoko.pdf' not found.
Jun 02 15:39:19 <morphis> you need a plugin ala open-tex-convert-it-to-pdf-and-display-it
Jun 02 15:39:32 <morphis> max_posedon: eps2pdf openmoko.eps
Jun 02 15:39:40 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: no. always use the #2121 and maybe adjust to your personal taste
Jun 02 15:40:31 <max_posedon> you see, even Makefile had bugs)
Jun 02 15:41:18 <bumbl> + DocScrutinizer with bz
Jun 02 15:41:22 <DocScrutinizer> for bigC phones (A7 and buzzfix) you probably want #48 mic gain to set one step higer
Jun 02 15:41:34 <bumbl> fix i can raise volume?
Jun 02 15:41:53 <max_posedon> wow, nice
Jun 02 15:42:03 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: please rephrase
Jun 02 15:42:28 <max_posedon> mrmoku, I'll use parts of your presentation for mine, thanks)
Jun 02 15:42:53 <bumbl> DocScrutinizer: with buzz fix i will be able to increase the volume of the speaker and the mic?
Jun 02 15:42:54 <max_posedon> oh
Jun 02 15:42:57 <max_posedon> e.g morphis, )
Jun 02 15:43:14 * mrmoku does not do presentations ;)
Jun 02 15:43:21 <bumbl> without getting bad interferences
Jun 02 15:43:27 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: you are alway able to increase those 
Jun 02 15:43:41 <bumbl> without getting bad interferences
Jun 02 15:44:04 <bumbl> with low volume neither echo nor buzz was a problem
Jun 02 15:44:09 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: the buzz should be gone
Jun 02 15:44:14 <bumbl> ok
Jun 02 15:44:35 <mrmoku> son pickup service... bbiab
Jun 02 15:45:12 <mrmoku> hehe... thought so... but wifey will do it :)
Jun 02 15:45:54 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, I lost some event on the buildhost... did you see it? :P
Jun 02 15:46:00 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: :-)
Jun 02 15:47:33 <morphis> max_posedon: there are no bugs, I just forgot to push my last changes :)
Jun 02 15:47:49 <mrmoku> morphis, hope you did some spellchecking too ;)
Jun 02 15:47:53 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: meh :-)
Jun 02 15:48:05 <morphis> max_posedon: use it and spread the spirit :)
Jun 02 15:48:40 <morphis> mrmoku: my vim does a little bit spellchecking
Jun 02 15:49:14 <max_posedon> spellchecking for morons who did presentations in msoffice!
Jun 02 15:49:34 * max_posedon don't care about grammar at all)
Jun 02 15:51:13 <DocScrutinizer> ok, with recent traffic I get an estimated on/suspend ratio on FR device under test of 50%. Should set backlight to low brightness. With the somewhat lower irc traffic for the next 12h I'd expect at least 24h of continuous irc online from one bat charge (which would be fine for now)
Jun 02 15:53:34 <ChristW> Running task 388 of 7251  <-- That will take a while longer, then...
Jun 02 15:54:45 <ptitjes> mickey|sun: warn. too much sun exposure can be bad for your health
Jun 02 15:54:46 <ptitjes> :)
Jun 02 15:55:40 <DocScrutinizer> ptitjes: I told mickey|sun exactly same ;-D
Jun 02 15:55:51 <ptitjes> héhéhé :)
Jun 02 15:57:34 <bumbl> max_posedon: orthography != grammar ;p
Jun 02 15:58:14 <max_posedon> bumbl, really? hm.. in that english which I learned in school it was kinda same.
Jun 02 15:58:23 <mrmoku> ChristW, what host are you building on?
Jun 02 15:58:35 <ChristW> Mine :-)
Jun 02 15:58:52 <mrmoku> ChristW, i386? :P
Jun 02 15:59:05 <ChristW> 2.4GHz i686 (something-ish)
Jun 02 15:59:15 <ptitjes> DocScrutinizer: and he wants us to believe he does have no wifi from his garden...
Jun 02 15:59:21 <bumbl> well grammar is just building sentences, choosing the right preposition, case,...
Jun 02 15:59:34 <mrmoku> ChristW, just asking... because for something with multiple cores you can turn on parallel building
Jun 02 15:59:36 <bumbl> at least that
Jun 02 15:59:41 <bumbl> is what i have learnt
Jun 02 16:00:04 <ChristW> True, but I am unsure about multiple cores. It probably has 2...
Jun 02 16:00:51 <ChristW> ...although  /sys/devices/system/cpu only shows 1 cpu *cpu0)
Jun 02 16:01:12 <DocScrutinizer> ptitjes: I more kind of wonder *where* his garden might be, or what " mickey|sun " does mean at all. Taking in account he claims to have "sun" for 27consecutive hours now
Jun 02 16:01:33 <ChristW> He's above the polar circle, then!
Jun 02 16:01:35 <ptitjes> héhéhé :D
Jun 02 16:01:37 <max_posedon> ChristW, in this case smth bad on your host
Jun 02 16:01:52 <ptitjes> DocScrutinizer: I did not notice that. good point!
Jun 02 16:01:53 <ChristW> max_posedon: why?
Jun 02 16:02:24 <ChristW> uname -a tells me: i686 GNU/Linux
Jun 02 16:02:30 <max_posedon> ChristW, because you should see cpu0 cpu1
Jun 02 16:02:36 <max_posedon> so, you are unlucky
Jun 02 16:02:56 <ChristW> Like I said, I am unsure if I have 2 cores...
Jun 02 16:02:58 <max_posedon> uname -a | grep SMP
Jun 02 16:03:03 <max_posedon> cat /proc/cpuinfo
Jun 02 16:03:15 <mrmoku> probably mickey|sunstudio :P
Jun 02 16:03:17 <mrmoku> (raining here)
Jun 02 16:04:17 <ChristW> Only cpu0 shows. No dual-core...
Jun 02 16:04:30 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: that's not helpful. you may have smp on a singlecore as well
Jun 02 16:05:00 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: duh! :-/
Jun 02 16:05:09 <DocScrutinizer> here nice weather
Jun 02 16:05:30 <ChristW> For those _really_ interested: http://pastebin.com/m3892c9b6
Jun 02 16:05:35 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, well... wait some minutes... will send it over ;)
Jun 02 16:05:46 <max_posedon> DocScrutinizer, I just want check, does his kernel have SMP support on not
Jun 02 16:06:05 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: goes it doesn't need your order...
Jun 02 16:06:16 <ChristW> scp mrmoko@real_life:/weather .
Jun 02 16:06:17 <DocScrutinizer> guess
Jun 02 16:06:18 <max_posedon> DocScrutinizer, as gentoo user I saw many funny kernel configs)
Jun 02 16:06:50 <ChristW> My kernel does not have SMP support, apparently...
Jun 02 16:07:24 <mrmoku> buildhost is compiling my favorite package now...
Jun 02 16:07:28 <mrmoku> libsexy-0.1.11 ;)
Jun 02 16:07:32 <max_posedon> DocScrutinizer, you see!)
Jun 02 16:07:35 <ChristW> Also, I don't have much memory in it, either... only 512Mb. It's my father's old one.
Jun 02 16:07:45 <max_posedon> ahhh, ok)
Jun 02 16:07:54 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: aye
Jun 02 16:08:15 <ChristW> It kinda works for stuff like this, but it's not particularly fast... it's 2 years old!
Jun 02 16:08:28 <ptitjes> mrmoku: hum, there is 29/05 oemerge image. Is that supposed to be one to test, or should I wait for the unstable that is currently building ?
Jun 02 16:08:38 <mrmoku> ptitjes, wait
Jun 02 16:08:39 <ptitjes> if there is one building...
Jun 02 16:08:41 <ptitjes> oki
Jun 02 16:08:53 <ptitjes> quick quick :D
Jun 02 16:09:36 <mrmoku> ptitjes, well... if you're in a hurry... take oemerge
Jun 02 16:09:45 <ptitjes> nah
Jun 02 16:09:57 <mrmoku> lite image finished... now building fat image... then feed... then lite image for gta01 and feed for gta01
Jun 02 16:09:59 <ptitjes> mrmoku: but if I can't have it before tomorrow, then...
Jun 02 16:10:20 <Heinervdm> building webkit-efl fails because the connection to the git is refused :(
Jun 02 16:10:24 <mrmoku>  5157 of 7846 of the fat image
Jun 02 16:10:27 <DocScrutinizer> ChristW: cat /proc/cpuinfo should give you sth like ""model name      : Intel(R) Pentium(R) Dual  CPU  T2330  @ 1.60GHz""
Jun 02 16:10:29 <max_posedon> wow, all see community-maillist!
Jun 02 16:10:43 <Ainulindale> Sean was fired?
Jun 02 16:10:54 <Ainulindale> (By himself?)
Jun 02 16:10:54 <ptitjes> mrmoku: it does build everything before publishing them ?
Jun 02 16:10:55 <ChristW> The pastebin link I put up shows that info.
Jun 02 16:11:18 <bumbl> what do you say to seans new mail?
Jun 02 16:11:19 <DocScrutinizer> ooh, sorry, no pastebin lookup on my N810
Jun 02 16:11:24 <bumbl> shr wins?
Jun 02 16:11:26 <ptitjes> mrmoku: because indeed I just use the lite version
Jun 02 16:12:08 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: where?
Jun 02 16:12:10 <ChristW> Intel(R) Celeron(R) CPU 2.40GHz
Jun 02 16:12:24 <ChristW> So, it's a slow beast to say the least :-)
Jun 02 16:12:32 <DocScrutinizer> ChristW: k, this seems to be single core then
Jun 02 16:12:50 <ChristW> Yup. So, no parallel builds for me!
Jun 02 16:12:51 <DocScrutinizer> yup
Jun 02 16:13:10 <bumbl> DocScrutinizer: announce and community mailinglist
Jun 02 16:13:17 <DocScrutinizer> today?
Jun 02 16:13:18 <bumbl> Freerunner's Furure
Jun 02 16:13:24 <bumbl> yes
Jun 02 16:13:29 <DocScrutinizer> leme see
Jun 02 16:13:32 <bumbl> couple of minutes ago
Jun 02 16:13:34 <Ainulindale> (I have no access to my mail right now, sigh)
Jun 02 16:13:43 <khiraly1> plan b is uncovered
Jun 02 16:13:49 <bumbl> aka why have we sacked all those employees
Jun 02 16:13:53 <bumbl> khiraly1: no it isn't
Jun 02 16:14:00 <Ainulindale> bumbl: "to have some fun"?
Jun 02 16:14:12 <bumbl> Ainulindale: more or less yes ;)
Jun 02 16:14:13 <khiraly1> bumbl: yet it is: last one switch off the light
Jun 02 16:14:50 <khiraly1> was a nice letter anyway. 
Jun 02 16:15:01 <bumbl> khiraly1: ;)
Jun 02 16:15:09 <max_posedon> in short, they decide, that don't want employees, since they have community
Jun 02 16:15:12 <bumbl> marketing bla bla
Jun 02 16:15:20 <mwester> What an astonishing "say-nothing" email.
Jun 02 16:15:28 <max_posedon> also bet, that someday gta02-core will be released, when it will be finished.
Jun 02 16:16:09 <bumbl> somewhat an employee's nightmare of http://www.wired.com/culture/culturereviews/magazine/17-06/nep_newsocialism
Jun 02 16:16:09 <khiraly1> max_posedon: Im wondering what it means: "... Openmoko Inc. will start
Jun 02 16:16:09 <khiraly1> another effort on an altogether different type of device. We've sized
Jun 02 16:16:09 <khiraly1> our company to go do that task."
Jun 02 16:16:25 <max_posedon> khiraly1, its about projectB
Jun 02 16:16:25 <max_posedon> )
Jun 02 16:16:27 <Ainulindale> Hmmmm what's the point of this mail?
Jun 02 16:16:32 <mrmoku> ptitjes, yes it will build all that before publishing ;)
Jun 02 16:16:33 <bumbl> plan b requires just a marketing guy who rebrands g1 phones
Jun 02 16:16:35 <bumbl> ;p
Jun 02 16:16:35 <khiraly1> max_posedon: without people?
Jun 02 16:16:52 <onen|openBmap> Deubeuliou: ping
Jun 02 16:17:13 <max_posedon> khiraly1, you asking me?) 
Jun 02 16:17:29 <max_posedon> may be product is ready now, and they just preparing marketing
Jun 02 16:17:47 <khiraly1> max_posedon: there is no project B,C, etc without people ...
Jun 02 16:17:52 <bumbl> max_posedon: well how will they fix the hardware bugs then?
Jun 02 16:17:56 <bumbl> without techies
Jun 02 16:18:17 <max_posedon> bumbl, about hardware bugs - gta02-core community project 
Jun 02 16:18:23 <max_posedon> *hardware project*
Jun 02 16:18:43 <bumbl> max_posedon: i am talking about project b's hardware bugs
Jun 02 16:18:54 <max_posedon> bumbl, may be they want do the same?)
Jun 02 16:20:16 <max_posedon> I just can't understand why web-version much shorter than in my email
Jun 02 16:20:23 <mrmoku> ok... dinner time... bbl
Jun 02 16:20:43 <arg0> 1) start project 2)sell hardware 3) hand over to community 4)?????? 5)profit?
Jun 02 16:20:43 <DocScrutinizer> bla bla bla, (me got kick in the ass by nvestors) bla bla bla
Jun 02 16:20:56 * mwester notes the number of people who think that there actually is still a "plan B", and notes that re-affirms the adage that "hope dies last"
Jun 02 16:21:37 <DocScrutinizer> OM abandoned "Plan B" and now is at "Plan Omega"
Jun 02 16:21:38 <bumbl> mwester: well it is true - hope is dying last
Jun 02 16:21:47 <max_posedon> arg0, profit will be better if you switch 2 and 3
Jun 02 16:22:24 <bumbl> max_posedon: nah then noone buys the product
Jun 02 16:22:26 <arg0> that was what openmoko leanred
Jun 02 16:22:26 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: so plan b will be never unveiled?
Jun 02 16:22:33 <arg0> *learned
Jun 02 16:22:56 <max_posedon> bumbl, do you know how many people bought gta02?
Jun 02 16:23:15 <bumbl> ~12k i think
Jun 02 16:23:20 <DocScrutinizer> no idea about "plan B" plans and their recent changes and plans about plans about plans. Anyway "IT'S A TOASTER"
Jun 02 16:23:21 <ChristW> Thousands...
Jun 02 16:23:27 <bumbl> not enough to be profitable
Jun 02 16:23:35 <Ainulindale> IMHO it was easier to kidnap them and make them live in a control environment than actually being able to deliver a working device :-)
Jun 02 16:23:39 <Ainulindale> +led
Jun 02 16:23:59 <DocScrutinizer> bumbl: that's about correct
Jun 02 16:24:15 <DocScrutinizer> both
Jun 02 16:24:28 <DocScrutinizer> never will, even
Jun 02 16:24:29 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: bla bla bla, (me got kick in the ass by nvestors) bla bla bla <-- Who they are?
Jun 02 16:24:43 <DocScrutinizer> sorry, NDA
Jun 02 16:24:47 <max_posedon> bumbl, I just want to say, that people will buy anything
Jun 02 16:24:52 <DocScrutinizer> google for FIC
Jun 02 16:25:16 <raster> DocScrutinizer: om abandoned planb because they lots key people working on it and thus are stuck unable to continue :)
Jun 02 16:25:25 <bumbl> well first international computers has problems itself afaik
Jun 02 16:25:47 <jc4> DocScrutinizer: "project B", not "plan B".
Jun 02 16:25:48 <jc4> :P
Jun 02 16:25:56 <DocScrutinizer> raster: me doesn't care at all
Jun 02 16:26:05 <max_posedon> I just understand that I'll use neo not less then 3 years)
Jun 02 16:26:10 <DocScrutinizer> jc4: same ^^
Jun 02 16:26:20 <raster> its funny how sean goes on about "handing gta02 over to the community" but doesn't in any way address the big key problem - how the fuck would you manufacture any community designed successor?
Jun 02 16:26:29 <raster> who will source the parts, pay for them
Jun 02 16:26:33 <raster> set up production line
Jun 02 16:26:35 <raster> etc.
Jun 02 16:26:46 <max_posedon> may be somebody will try
Jun 02 16:26:50 <DocScrutinizer> raster: exactly
Jun 02 16:26:54 <raster> DocScrutinizer: nb - i dont care either about what om's doing. it's become irrelevant.
Jun 02 16:27:07 <max_posedon> I think its more easy, just hard to understand how many people will buy it
Jun 02 16:27:12 <raster> DocScrutinizer: designing and making prototypes is doable for many peolewith a small amount of #
Jun 02 16:27:15 <raster> err amount of $
Jun 02 16:27:33 <raster> if u are prepared to drop $2,000-$10,000 per unit
Jun 02 16:27:35 <DocScrutinizer> and how werner's gta02-core is mis-conceived / mis-interpreted as "the next phone", while keeping gta03 plans secret :-((((
Jun 02 16:27:39 <raster> thats within the means of many people
Jun 02 16:27:53 <raster> but... doing a production run needs millions of $
Jun 02 16:28:04 <raster> yeah
Jun 02 16:28:20 <raster> gta02-core is useless without a production line and all the sourcing and funding to make that happen
Jun 02 16:28:29 <raster> thats why opensource works for software
Jun 02 16:28:37 <raster> (thanks to the internet existing)
Jun 02 16:28:44 <raster> the cost of "production" is trivially low
Jun 02 16:28:52 <raster> ie - have somewhere to upload it
Jun 02 16:28:56 <raster> (web space)
Jun 02 16:28:59 <raster> not so for hw
Jun 02 16:29:15 <DocScrutinizer> raster: couldn't agree more
Jun 02 16:29:19 <bumbl> well - android will take up - by far not that open (but more open than the rest), big players in the background which will push the project, working hardware, easily rootable
Jun 02 16:29:53 <DocScrutinizer> hey ppls get yourself a N900 !!!   ;-)
Jun 02 16:30:02 <bumbl> yep or maemo
Jun 02 16:30:03 <max_posedon> raster, but now any company could try produce gta02-core
Jun 02 16:30:19 <bumbl> but the n900 is way bigger than the neo i think
Jun 02 16:30:22 <raster> bumbl: android is not linux. i dont know about you, but i am interested inlinux, not symban, or wince, or tron or... anroid
Jun 02 16:30:33 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: so what?
Jun 02 16:30:35 <raster> max_posedon: which ones? name them. thats the p.roblem
Jun 02 16:30:55 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: nobody cares, nobody dares
Jun 02 16:31:08 <max_posedon> so, any !other! company could try save money
Jun 02 16:31:15 <bumbl> raster: well once it is rooted the command line uses linux tools
Jun 02 16:31:29 <max_posedon> raster, I don't know big complanies who produces hardware
Jun 02 16:31:32 <raster> bumbl: no it doesnt.
Jun 02 16:31:53 <bumbl> which is (when choosing between the devil and the dep blue sea)
Jun 02 16:31:54 <raster> bumbl: they wrote their own busybox likething called toolbox that is a tiny subset of fileutils and core unix cmds
Jun 02 16:31:58 <bumbl> enough
Jun 02 16:31:58 <max_posedon> but I know two companies at least in Belarus, who design hardware
Jun 02 16:32:05 <raster> they wrote their own incompatible libc
Jun 02 16:32:15 <raster> not to mention a mountain of other stuff
Jun 02 16:32:19 <raster> it is NOT linux
Jun 02 16:32:22 <max_posedon> so, if they will decide join phone market some day, it will be easy for them just take gta02
Jun 02 16:32:26 <raster> its a linx kernel with their own custom userspace
Jun 02 16:32:31 <bumbl> raster: it is not gnu/linux
Jun 02 16:32:33 <raster> its not much different to winows
Jun 02 16:32:37 <bumbl> but you are right yes
Jun 02 16:32:41 <raster> i can have a cmdlin there ith tools too
Jun 02 16:32:41 <max_posedon> (both companies now work with embedded linux, but not with phones)
Jun 02 16:32:46 <raster> often reminiscent of unix
Jun 02 16:32:48 <DocScrutinizer> max_posedon: produce more bricks to the head in shelf of OM? there's plenty of A7, and nobody would earn a penny on producing more of them
Jun 02 16:32:50 <raster> (thanks to coming for cpm)
Jun 02 16:32:52 <raster> from
Jun 02 16:32:53 <wpwrak> raster: well, we know that getting the critical mass for production is a challenge. but i think we're all in a better position if openmoko does as much as possible to help us to lower that barrier.
Jun 02 16:33:10 <raster> wpwrak: how?
Jun 02 16:33:34 <DocScrutinizer> s/head/heap/
Jun 02 16:33:34 <bzzbot> DocScrutinizer meant: max_posedon: produce more bricks to the heap in shelf of OM? there's plenty of A7, and nobody would earn a penny on producing more of them
Jun 02 16:33:41 <raster> wpwrak: without omeone to buy all e components - pay to set up the production line, pay to have the plastic moldsmade frm the designs, then actually pay frr the production of N units bfore sale...
Jun 02 16:33:47 <wpwrak> raster: by releasing information, providing parts for prototypes, helping with contacts, etc.
Jun 02 16:33:49 <raster> who will do that?
Jun 02 16:33:56 <raster> sure
Jun 02 16:34:02 <raster> but the biggest hurdle is stil there
Jun 02 16:34:18 <raster> prototypes and design is relatively easy & cheap (compared to production)
Jun 02 16:34:41 <raster> prototypes cost < $100k (if u dont do the molds - just boards and components)
Jun 02 16:34:44 <khiraly1> (18.32.22) max_posedon: so, if they will decide join phone market some day, it will be easy for them just take gta02 <-- but gta02 is older and older by days
Jun 02 16:34:50 <onen|openBmap> I am actually wondering if Android is far more open than Windows mobile? WM offers quite some APIs and a phone I cannot flash is a damned closed phone, whatever the OS it runs
Jun 02 16:34:51 <raster> production costs millions of $
Jun 02 16:34:53 <khiraly1> it is obsolate already
Jun 02 16:34:58 <raster> ie 50x the cost.
Jun 02 16:34:58 <max_posedon> khiraly1, who cares?
Jun 02 16:35:01 <wpwrak> raster: the biggest problem is convincing someone with deep pockets that it's worth it. after that, all is easy :)
Jun 02 16:35:02 <raster> or more
Jun 02 16:35:22 <max_posedon> I don't want 3G, because thereis no GSM provider in Belarus who provide this
Jun 02 16:35:26 <bumbl> onen|openBmap: you can flash android phones - you just need root access which you can get easily
Jun 02 16:35:34 <max_posedon> and it won't changed in near 3-5 years
Jun 02 16:35:36 <raster> wpwrak:  bingo! tats the problem. without the mountain of $... nothing will happen worht worrying about
Jun 02 16:36:08 <wpwrak> raster: correct. but what we can do is lower the barrier in terms of r&d cost, which includes time.
Jun 02 16:36:32 <wpwrak> raster: and also raise the standard, i.e., more complete openness
Jun 02 16:36:59 <raster> wpwrak:  sure. but by the time you find the $ - a 2442 and 2g phone will be like building a horse and buggy for people to commute to work with these days :)
Jun 02 16:37:00 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: won't help to solve the root problem
Jun 02 16:37:30 <raster> eeryopne else designing hw is many generations ahead beyond what gta02-core has
Jun 02 16:38:07 <wpwrak> raster: oh, i don't want to mass-produce gta02 again. well, if there's really a lot of interest, which i doubt, and we could get om's component stock cheaply, why not.
Jun 02 16:38:12 <DocScrutinizer> raster: it's about to implement the process
Jun 02 16:38:17 <DocScrutinizer> ;-P
Jun 02 16:38:31 <wpwrak> raster: the thing is that the gta02 design is a sweet spot. reduces the number of things we have to get right upfront.
Jun 02 16:38:31 <raster> imho - if u are doing a desing with the hope some money may come aloing N months/years from now - u'd be wanting to use everything bleeding edge.
Jun 02 16:38:47 <onen|openBmap> bumbl: you can flash them on some early verisons of the the g1, right? updated version and g2 and probably newer models won't be that easy?
Jun 02 16:38:53 <raster> ooh so gto02-core is just a hobby formaking prototypes for yourself and a few others?
Jun 02 16:39:28 <DocScrutinizer> raster: that's what I got from Werner
Jun 02 16:39:29 <wpwrak> raster: it's about developing the process. after that, we could drop in the mc75i or maybe even a 3G module.
Jun 02 16:39:46 <onen|openBmap> bumbl: plus: you lose all the user space binary drivers, and thus not everything will keep working, AFAIR
Jun 02 16:40:00 <wpwrak> raster: that would still leave a bunch of loose ends, but a lot fewer than a "start from zero"
Jun 02 16:40:01 <raster> wpwrak: that will affect a lot - case, board size, rf etc.
Jun 02 16:40:02 <DocScrutinizer> bah, I told ya it won't work this way, 12h ago
Jun 02 16:40:07 <raster> at which point u are doing major changes
Jun 02 16:40:09 <raster> :(
Jun 02 16:40:12 <bumbl> onen|openBmap: you can always buy the dev version but afaik you will be able to do that even with newer models
Jun 02 16:40:39 <wpwrak> raster: mc75i would only need a slightly thicker case and a thorough re-check of RF. so it's not all that radical.
Jun 02 16:40:51 <raster> but itf its not for making mass-production so normal people can just buy it - it's raher moot beyond a "personal" hw tinkering project :)
Jun 02 16:41:23 <onen|openBmap> bumbl: to what I know, root access was a bug in early version of software of G1. And for what I have understood, you lose binary drivers (not sure there)
Jun 02 16:41:40 <raster> wpwrak: the moment u change the case at all - you need a new mold. at that point u are free to totally redesign it and fix major design issues - like the heavily indented bezel
Jun 02 16:41:45 <DocScrutinizer> raster: exactly
Jun 02 16:41:50 <raster> at that point u are also free to change a lot of other things...
Jun 02 16:42:05 <wpwrak> raster: the objective of gta02-core is not to make a mass-production ready design. however, that doesn't mean that, after we've debugged the process with gta02-core, we couldn't do one. think of it as some gta03v0 :)
Jun 02 16:42:12 <raster> adn at that point... why not just use an SoC that isnt from the land of the dinosaurs :)
Jun 02 16:42:17 <onen|openBmap> bumbl: you mean the 400$ phone? That nobody beside a bunch of people around the world will have? Change anything out of applications in Java, and you will never see many people run it on your phone
Jun 02 16:42:23 <wpwrak> raster: you could actually try to fix the case a bit right now
Jun 02 16:42:38 <raster> wpwrak:  yup. as i said - if its not for a mass-production phone (goal) then it doesnt much matter :)
Jun 02 16:42:47 <DocScrutinizer> (gta03v0) muahaha
Jun 02 16:43:01 <raster> wpwrak: unless you have $100k-$200k floating about...
Jun 02 16:43:07 <raster> (to make a new mold)
Jun 02 16:43:17 <raster> doing the design in the files - thats easy and cheap
Jun 02 16:43:29 <raster> 3d printing can get u somthing to actualy hold and chekc if you got it right
Jun 02 16:43:41 <raster> but beyond that... u'll be wanting a mold.
Jun 02 16:43:43 <wpwrak> raster: you don't need an MP-grade mold now. in fact, openmoko would have been fine with a low-volume mold
Jun 02 16:43:44 <DocScrutinizer> [2009-06-02 05:27:08] <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: if gta02-core is about establishing the process, I think by sticking to a given (however good or nasty) case you're establishing exactly the same broken process that lead to death of gta03. Designing a device the right way should be a fundamentally different process
Jun 02 16:43:46 <DocScrutinizer> [2009-06-02 05:35:29] <DocScrutinizer> btw this is mostly applicable to my objections about using gta02 schem for "reference" as well
Jun 02 16:44:39 <max_posedon> DocMobilizer, raster I just interested in what koolu will do
Jun 02 16:44:45 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: I don't agree. there are a lot of tasks that are the same. yes, we can avoid evaluating new components and selecting them for openness, but once you've chosen them, it's pretty much the same.
Jun 02 16:44:50 <thrashold> Well, human beings were made out of bacteria. So making a good device out of gta02 might also be possible, in theory.
Jun 02 16:44:52 <thrashold> :)
Jun 02 16:45:17 <DocScrutinizer> soo seems establishing the process for gta03v0 is establishing the process that finally failed lethaly this very moment
Jun 02 16:45:36 <max_posedon> ok, you will name me crazy optimist, but that company can take care about gta02-*
Jun 02 16:45:43 <raster> max_posedon: koolu will do nothing with hw i reckon. and other than that they are google-crazy, and i my opinion, android is just not hat linux uers/devs want
Jun 02 16:45:44 <ptitjes> thrashold: that would hold, if humans were "good"
Jun 02 16:45:45 <ptitjes> :)
Jun 02 16:45:46 <wpwrak> DocMobilizer: well, if you don't see the difference ... :)
Jun 02 16:46:16 <raster> Onen_away: btw the google dev phone is unlocked - u can get root.
Jun 02 16:46:42 <raster> its the ons soled in shops/telcos (*even if not sim-locked and so on) that are locked-down and not open
Jun 02 16:46:50 <max_posedon> raster, I hate android, but doesn't metter with which OS koolu will sell phones
Jun 02 16:47:10 <raster> max_posedon: sure. but koolu do hw? i dont think they will.
Jun 02 16:47:33 <raster> and beyond crossing your fingers and getting some chinese oem phone... you wont  have anything
Jun 02 16:47:48 <raster> (and trolltech did that for greenphone and were stuck with a closed kernel)
Jun 02 16:48:02 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jun 02 16:48:10 <raster> wel not closed - but binary-only drivermodules... so in effect they were stuck
Jun 02 16:48:12 <DocScrutinizer> and recommended Openmoko
Jun 02 16:48:34 <Ainulindale> hey raster son of a pig
Jun 02 16:48:40 <Ainulindale> raster: you didn't even call to eat! :-)
Jun 02 16:48:59 <max_posedon> raster, *may be* they will have success with android-neo, in this case we will sany many neos on market
Jun 02 16:49:04 <raster> Ainulindale: i dndt have your phone #
Jun 02 16:49:08 <raster> any my internet SUCKED
Jun 02 16:49:09 <wpwrak> raster: i think it's a bit early to tell what koolu will do. besides, they may just provide contacts.
Jun 02 16:49:14 <Ainulindale> raster: No excuse!
Jun 02 16:49:14 <max_posedon> and if they will have, they will do hardware
Jun 02 16:49:17 <raster> french hotels have sucky internet
Jun 02 16:49:23 <raster> it would drop the connection every 2 mins
Jun 02 16:49:27 <Ainulindale> You went to the crappiest hotel
Jun 02 16:49:30 <Ainulindale> That's your fault
Jun 02 16:49:31 <raster> or less
Jun 02 16:49:55 <Zorkman> raster: did they have those french toilets? :P
Jun 02 16:50:15 <raster> max_posedon: somehow i am not sure they will be successful. the freerunner is expensive relative to the competition running android.
Jun 02 16:50:19 <Zorkman> everyone in my country really hates them :)  (no offence meant Ainulindale)
Jun 02 16:50:25 <raster> a google dev g1 phone is a much better deal
Jun 02 16:50:42 <raster> Ainulindale: i had no idea it was that bad! they said they had internet!
Jun 02 16:51:01 <raster> at least the swiss know how to do net :)
Jun 02 16:51:15 <Ainulindale> raster: meh
Jun 02 16:51:16 <max_posedon> raster, it's about marketing competition, nothing more
Jun 02 16:52:39 <raster> max_posedon: g1 has much beter markting... and its beter hw
Jun 02 16:53:11 <max_posedon> as I know they sold 1*10^6, so, if koolu will have at least 10% of this, its great
Jun 02 16:53:27 <raster> 3g, ith kbd, capacitive touch (multi-touch capable), with a camera... a faster cpu.
Jun 02 16:53:36 <raster> no way
Jun 02 16:53:41 <raster> om hasnt even made that many
Jun 02 16:53:59 <raster> u know how many freerunners koolu has actally sold?
Jun 02 16:54:07 <raster> its maybe at best 500
Jun 02 16:54:12 <raster> BEST
Jun 02 16:54:20 <raster> i think its closer to 200-300
Jun 02 16:54:28 <max_posedon> its because android doesn't work on neo now
Jun 02 16:54:32 <raster> no way in hell will they get to 100,000
Jun 02 16:54:40 <raster> or even a decent fraction of that
Jun 02 16:54:42 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jun 02 16:54:46 <Ainulindale> raster: I've been told someone made a house out of freerunners
Jun 02 16:54:47 <max_posedon> I would even say, they don't even *start* sell
Jun 02 16:54:49 <Ainulindale> Maybe that's why
Jun 02 16:54:49 <raster> and it wont sell even when it does work
Jun 02 16:54:57 <raster> Ainulindale:  hahahahah!
Jun 02 16:55:21 <Ainulindale> raster: a Mark Shuttleworth something
Jun 02 16:55:27 <Ainulindale> A nobody I suppose
Jun 02 16:55:40 <bumbl> thrashold: the difference is bacteria were (and are) good the first place
Jun 02 16:55:40 <raster> seriously - it wont sell. 1. fr is ugly, 2. it has a massive PR problem. everyone by now associates it with failure. a device that cant make calls.
Jun 02 16:55:49 <Ainulindale> Though it'd be great to make a picture out of freerunners
Jun 02 16:55:54 <Ainulindale> "Go FIC yourself!"
Jun 02 16:55:55 <raster> Ainulindale:  hehehehe
Jun 02 16:55:59 <Ainulindale> I'd love to do that
Jun 02 16:56:23 <thrashold> bumbl: Well, but they didn't have a touchscreen! ;)
Jun 02 16:56:29 <raster> heheheh
Jun 02 16:57:29 <DocScrutinizer> Ainulindale: wasn't that me who suggested to build a house of all those bricks?
Jun 02 16:58:46 <max_posedon> raster, ok, may be your right, in this case I'm lucky that I bought neo, I'll sell it in 10 years for 4k$)
Jun 02 16:58:46 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: Well you usually say lot of crap
Jun 02 16:58:52 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: so yes, might be you
Jun 02 16:58:57 <DocScrutinizer> Ainulindale: yup
Jun 02 16:59:04 <DocScrutinizer> love to do that
Jun 02 16:59:20 <Ainulindale> Well you should worry I'm quite a challenger
Jun 02 16:59:29 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jun 02 16:59:42 <arg0> heres to hoping the freerunner becomes a collectors item
Jun 02 17:00:19 <bumbl> arg0: who except Dave would be so insane to collect freerunners
Jun 02 17:00:34 <DocScrutinizer> arg0: only the ones reworked and signed off by me ;-)))
Jun 02 17:00:36 <Ainulindale> bumbl: well there are people collecting empty bottles
Jun 02 17:00:37 <raster> max_posedon:  HAHAHHAHAHA
Jun 02 17:00:40 <Ainulindale> So why not collect freerunners?
Jun 02 17:00:42 <arg0> some linux musuem 50 years down the road?
Jun 02 17:01:45 <DocScrutinizer> ouch, have no children, so prolly I won't see any benefitt then
Jun 02 17:02:01 <bumbl> my chance ;p
Jun 02 17:02:41 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: well can't the GTAx be considered as your children?
Jun 02 17:02:54 <Ainulindale> I'm sure there's a subroutine somewhere enabling a "conquer the world" thing
Jun 02 17:02:58 <tilman> what did sean actually say? that there will be no gta03 after the toaster has been developed?
Jun 02 17:02:59 <DocScrutinizer> waaaaaaaaaaaaaaah, please nooo
Jun 02 17:03:27 <khiraly1> First International Computer (FIC), which itself is a division of the giant Formosa Plastics Group
Jun 02 17:08:20 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: there should be some other moulding options. Like macbook unibody. Im pretty sure it has lower initial costs
Jun 02 17:09:54 <DocScrutinizer> khiraly1: I dn't care. The idea to duplicate the broken OM "process" isn't any intriguing to me. See, I *know* this process and learned to hate it
Jun 02 17:10:48 <khiraly1> so what is the "broken" part of this process? We *need* to reuse parts already made?(like case)
Jun 02 17:11:59 <morphis> DocScrutinizer: maybe the next option is to convince some bigger company to help us with creating a more hacker friendly phone than the ones the creates everyday 
Jun 02 17:12:18 <DocScrutinizer> the original process is broken in many regards, and the concept to duplicate it is sqr(broken)
Jun 02 17:13:40 <khiraly1> Care to elaborat what is broken? or is it under NDA too?
Jun 02 17:14:56 <khiraly1> I see it this way: we have now a debugged hardware, we know what should be changed, and should be done by small steps, and building prototypes. 
Jun 02 17:15:36 <khiraly1> If I understand it right, you are saying, we should build a completely new device and forgot completely about freerunner
Jun 02 17:16:42 <DocScrutinizer> gta02-core is ***not*** about building a better gta02
Jun 02 17:17:13 <DocScrutinizer> it's all about "establishing the process" for now
Jun 02 17:18:07 <wpwrak> khiraly1: the debugged hardware only makes things a little easier. the main goal of gta02-core is to bring the process out into the open, thus enabling early reviews and no need to depend on a single company to do everything.
Jun 02 17:18:08 <khiraly1> ok. And you are proposing ...?
Jun 02 17:18:09 <DocScrutinizer> and btw your approach how to build a better gta02 has been proven to be ineffective and leading nowhere as well
Jun 02 17:18:39 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: that may be because openmoko never tried it :)
Jun 02 17:19:22 <DocScrutinizer> wpwrak: au contraire. it's exactly the way we got A8, ans some dozen gta01 proto
Jun 02 17:20:16 <DocScrutinizer> in the end it was a mayor factor killing OM success
Jun 02 17:21:32 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: the gta01/02 prototypes were essentially bug fixes. the "small improvements" for a new phone would be feature changes. different objective. and agreed, there were way too many prototypes.
Jun 02 17:22:58 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: and what is the correct process in your opinion?
Jun 02 17:23:15 <onen|openBmap> raster: (google dev phone bootloader open) I know. But even the dev version, I am not sure about binary drivers, and how you can get them easily. my 2nd point was: if you modify sth and flash it to your phone, you will not be able to distribute it to any regular google phone users
Jun 02 17:23:28 <DocScrutinizer> again, I don't care. It's not intriguing for me to try and establish a process I know is borked. And I have other hobbies than teaching community why OM failed (sorry, no offense meant)
Jun 02 17:24:26 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: Im curious what is the working process. It is easy to say something is borked. But do you know a better, working process?
Jun 02 17:24:36 <khiraly1> maybe it is what wpwrak is trying to establish
Jun 02 17:24:55 <DocScrutinizer> gta92-core very obviously is *not* about going to market any time. And for sure there's  no money in it for me to buy my coke
Jun 02 17:25:42 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: yeah, i stocked up on diet coke. need the fuel :)
Jun 02 17:26:12 <DocScrutinizer> see, for you it's a hobby. I'm professional and need to think about how to make my living
Jun 02 17:26:55 <DocScrutinizer> and there's not even merits in gta02-core
Jun 02 17:27:25 <DocScrutinizer> so I'm not interested  in it
Jun 02 17:27:49 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: we'll see :) in general, when i do interesting things, enough money will find me. beats searching for it ;-)
Jun 02 17:28:13 <DocScrutinizer> yet to be proven here. sorry
Jun 02 17:29:26 <DocScrutinizer> and, agin - for a last time - how the hell could gta02-core be interesting to me
Jun 02 17:29:28 <DocScrutinizer> ?
Jun 02 17:29:50 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: see your audio fixes finally get implemented ?
Jun 02 17:30:09 <DocScrutinizer> bah, seen it on prototypes
Jun 02 17:30:49 <DocScrutinizer> for me those are boring as soon as I got the story about how aand why they work
Jun 02 17:32:00 <onen|openBmap> I still think our best bet would be to make a "complete" (gsm+audio) whatever phone work. gnufiish is one of my best hope
Jun 02 17:32:21 <DocScrutinizer> N900
Jun 02 17:32:22 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: what do you think about this approach? (I am not versed in hw)
Jun 02 17:32:41 <DocScrutinizer> much better hw
Jun 02 17:33:01 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: will look at it
Jun 02 17:33:30 <onen|openBmap> it states: internet tablet... hope dimensions are more of a phone one...
Jun 02 17:34:21 <ptitjes> grrrrrrrrr
Jun 02 17:34:23 <jc4> khiraly1: FIC is **not** part of Formosa Plastic Group.
Jun 02 17:34:46 <mwester> <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: we'll see :) in general, when i do interesting things, enough money will find me. beats searching for it ;-)     <------- /me is going to try that strategy.
Jun 02 17:34:47 <khiraly1> jc4: hehh. never trust google/internet;)
Jun 02 17:35:02 <ptitjes> I'd like to post the new 0.7.4-fso1 but have no access to FSO's server :(
Jun 02 17:35:08 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: only find old (09/2008) news :-( about a possible arrival by end of 2008
Jun 02 17:35:41 <DocScrutinizer> onen|openBmap: http://www.mobilecrunch.com/2009/05/24/exclusive-everything-there-is-to-know-about-nokias-next-tablet/
Jun 02 17:35:52 * onen|openBmap hugs DocScrutinizer
Jun 02 17:36:00 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jun 02 17:36:17 <DocScrutinizer> goood, like it to be hugged every once in a while
Jun 02 17:37:16 <jc4> khiraly1: You could call them "Wang family", somehow they FIC is not part of fpg.
Jun 02 17:37:27 <wpwrak> mwester: i've always been suspicious about that concept that everyone should strive to be an entrepreneur. i'm happy with being an engineer. let others do the rest :)
Jun 02 17:37:42 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: (sorry have little time to read this carefully, excuse any RTFArticle question), how open will be the different chipsets?
Jun 02 17:37:53 <jc4> khiraly1: but one thing in common of them, they are rich.
Jun 02 17:38:29 <DocScrutinizer> onen|openBmap: not really open I guess. but see maemo-mer for that 
Jun 02 17:38:40 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: this is very much dimensions of a phone, not an internet table
Jun 02 17:38:43 <onen|openBmap> +t
Jun 02 17:38:57 <mwester> wpwrak,  I've enjoyed working for/with entrepreneurs.  But looking for employment is not working out for me right now (the only active opportunity I have in four weeks is software QA work on an IBM mainframe).  So perhaps I just need to do something "completely different", as Monty Python would say.
Jun 02 17:39:25 <mwester> I just have no idea how one "networks" in the open-source community to actually get paid for work!
Jun 02 17:39:39 <DocScrutinizer> mwester: same here :-/
Jun 02 17:40:09 <jc4> DocScrutinizer: the size of N900 is even smaller than N810.
Jun 02 17:40:16 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: mwester: I think mickey|sun would know the secret too ;-)
Jun 02 17:40:17 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: in n810 you cant insert a sim card ...
Jun 02 17:40:17 <DocScrutinizer> jc4: yup
Jun 02 17:40:32 <DocScrutinizer> khiraly1: so what???
Jun 02 17:40:37 <jc4> DocScrutinizer: I believe you will get one, once they are on the market.
Jun 02 17:40:41 <onen|openBmap> s/would know/would like to know/
Jun 02 17:40:43 <bzzbot> onen|openBmap meant: DocScrutinizer: mwester: I think mickey|sun would like to know the secret too ;-)
Jun 02 17:40:47 <DocScrutinizer> jc4: you bet
Jun 02 17:40:48 <mwester> Yep
Jun 02 17:40:48 <khiraly1> DocScrutinizer: so it is not a phone
Jun 02 17:41:26 <wpwrak> mwester: my hope is on the press. if openmoko can give gta02-core enough of a boost that it makes it to, say, heise newsticker, that should get the message to a lot of the right people.
Jun 02 17:41:28 <DocScrutinizer> khiraly1: so what???
Jun 02 17:41:35 <tony_tu> jc4: fic is not rich now, maybe they rich long time ago
Jun 02 17:41:44 <DocScrutinizer> khiraly1: we are talking N900 here, not N810
Jun 02 17:42:04 <DocScrutinizer> tony_tu: :-)))) HEY!!
Jun 02 17:42:10 <tony_tu> jc4: and via acquire om last year around octomber
Jun 02 17:42:24 <tony_tu> doc: hey :)
Jun 02 17:42:24 <jc4> tony_tu: not that rich, but still rich..
Jun 02 17:43:21 <tony_tu> jc4: as i know, early last year they sold company building for cash income
Jun 02 17:43:41 <thrashold> DocScrutinizer: I'm not familiar with those devices, but what are the chances to be able to replace the OS running on them? And have (most of) the hardware working?
Jun 02 17:44:34 <onen|openBmap> well, all in all, I will be very much happy if I can get a phone working, even with some restrictions (some hw parts not supported, or some binary drivers)
Jun 02 17:44:38 <DocScrutinizer> thrashold: pretty good I'd say. In the end maemo *is* a linux. So tends to be easier han e.g. for a HTC
Jun 02 17:45:03 <jc4> tony_tu: I don't have any thing could be sold for cash :P
Jun 02 17:45:16 <DocScrutinizer> thrashold: and maemo-mer is an nitiative to go completely FOSS from maemo
Jun 02 17:45:24 <ptitjes> hum can someone remember fso's coreteam mail adress ?
Jun 02 17:45:25 <DocScrutinizer> AIUI
Jun 02 17:45:43 <ptitjes> isn't it coreteam**$$$$ _at_ fso.org ?
Jun 02 17:45:45 <roh> re
Jun 02 17:46:12 <onen|openBmap> tony_tu: you mean om now belongs to via???
Jun 02 17:46:24 <tony_tu> jc4: well, it's already very diffcult for wang's family member
Jun 02 17:46:34 <thrashold> I would be happy if I could run Debian on one and get GPS and GSM working. :D
Jun 02 17:47:11 <onen|openBmap> thrashold: me too, that is what I need for openBmap :-)
Jun 02 17:47:42 <tony_tu> onen: not via, if exactly. via investment group
Jun 02 17:48:02 <DocScrutinizer> k, bbl
Jun 02 17:48:07 <DocScrutinizer> cya folks
Jun 02 17:48:14 <onen|openBmap> DocScrutinizer: abend
Jun 02 17:48:52 <onen|openBmap> tony_tu: via lately moves towards opensource (chrome, etc...). hope they will revive the flame of an open phone ... :-S
Jun 02 17:49:24 <khiraly1> (19.37.15) jc4: khiraly1: You could call them "Wang family", somehow they FIC is not part of fpg. <-- what is "Wang family" ?
Jun 02 17:49:39 <mrmoku> ptitjes, fat image finished... building the feed now
Jun 02 17:49:47 <ptitjes> :)
Jun 02 17:49:50 <mrmoku> guess you have a chance to get a new image tonight
Jun 02 17:49:59 <onen|openBmap> night guys
Jun 02 17:50:04 <mrmoku> onen|openBmap, night
Jun 02 17:50:14 <Sharwin_F> mrmobil, usable image? :P
Jun 02 17:50:22 <mrmoku> Sharwin_F, well... hope so :)
Jun 02 17:50:56 <Sharwin_F> mrmoku, are you building shr-unstable from merged OE?
Jun 02 17:51:00 <mrmoku> yep
Jun 02 17:51:15 <tony_tu> khiraly1: wang's family usually means http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Formosa_Plastics_Group
Jun 02 17:52:30 <khiraly1> tony_tu: you mean he?: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wang_Yung-ching
Jun 02 17:52:56 <jc4> khiraly1: FIC's owner or the owner's wife is the daughter of fpg's founder(Wang Yung-ching)
Jun 02 17:54:00 <tony_tu> jc4: depends on via's own strategy, even under same group, divisions have it's own market plan
Jun 02 17:54:53 <khiraly1> doh
Jun 02 17:55:00 <jc4> tony_tu: that's what I mean we call them Wang family because the relatioship, not call them "part of each other".
Jun 02 17:55:03 <tony_tu> khiraly: jc4 is correct, owner's wife
Jun 02 17:55:07 <ChristW> I'm trying to build SHR-unstable following http://trac.shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Building%20SHR. I get the following error in the generation of glibc: memory clobbered before allocated block. Any pointers?
Jun 02 17:55:16 <khiraly1> never known, that FIC, HTC and VIA owned by the same family
Jun 02 17:55:42 <khiraly1> on the wikipedia.org page it is explained
Jun 02 17:55:45 <mrmoku> ChristW, never seen that
Jun 02 17:56:06 <ChristW> Hmmm... Out of memory?
Jun 02 17:56:19 <mrmoku> might be
Jun 02 17:56:41 <ChristW> I'll re-run the 'make image' and check 'top' output...
Jun 02 17:58:12 <jc4> tony_tu: are they richest family in taiwan? or tsai family?
Jun 02 17:59:01 <DocScrutinizer> asian rothschilds
Jun 02 17:59:18 <tony_tu> jc4: different area
Jun 02 17:59:58 <tony_tu> jc4: manufacture vs estate
Jun 02 18:00:48 <wpwrak> hi tony ! been researching future investors ? :)
Jun 02 18:01:28 <DocScrutinizer> I think chere and HT are not that interested anymore ;-)
Jun 02 18:01:36 <khiraly1> http://www.forbes.com/lists/2008/87/biz_taiwanrichest08_Cher-Wang-Wen-Chi-Chen_D3RI.html
Jun 02 18:01:43 <khiraly1> ^^ #5 in tw
Jun 02 18:02:38 <jc4> khiraly1: altough FIC, VIA and HTC are owned by the same family(sisters), but those three companies are financial independent and not related to each other.
Jun 02 18:02:42 <khiraly1> fail to understand why they wanted OM besides HTC
Jun 02 18:02:47 <wpwrak> DocScrutinizer: maybe one of the other six daughters ;-)
Jun 02 18:03:02 <tony_tu> khiraly: wang's family have US property you can't see in taiwan's cisis
Jun 02 18:03:10 <DocScrutinizer> oook, gprs borked after 24h. need to re-connect
Jun 02 18:03:42 <khiraly1> tony_tu: hehh
Jun 02 18:04:53 <ptitjes> mrmoku: do you remember fso's coreteam mail ?
Jun 02 18:05:12 <roh> hm.. anybody a tip for v4l2 streaming sw?
Jun 02 18:05:17 <mrmoku> ptitjes, well... did not know it in the first place... so nothing to remember ;)
Jun 02 18:05:37 <roh> means: i got a v4l2 source and want it somehow on the web.. icecast/selfserving or so... 
Jun 02 18:05:38 <ptitjes> arf
Jun 02 18:06:10 <tony_tu> doc: i think there might be several reasons, but we never know what is real one
Jun 02 18:06:28 <ptitjes> mrmoku: tried to get #shr, but a guy named Tau owns it :(
Jun 02 18:06:46 <ptitjes> never seen any Tau here
Jun 02 18:06:51 <ptitjes> ~seen Tau
Jun 02 18:06:52 <bzzbot> i haven't seen 'tau', ptitjes
Jun 02 18:07:54 <mrmoku> ptitjes, try #fsoshr then :P
Jun 02 18:07:56 <tony_tu> wpwrak: i still enjoy my vacation :)
Jun 02 18:08:02 <ptitjes> oh nice:)
Jun 02 18:08:12 <wpwrak> tony_tu: did you do any travel lately ?
Jun 02 18:08:18 <ptitjes> mrmoku: I already get #shr-project, but it is lame
Jun 02 18:08:19 <mrmoku> ptitjes, or better still... #freesmartphone
Jun 02 18:08:21 <jc4> http://www.forbes.com/2008/06/04/taiwan-richest-billionaires-biz-taiwanrichest08-cx_rf_0604taiwan_land.html  lots of name, I have no idea about.
Jun 02 18:08:34 <ptitjes> mrmoku: there is #freesmartphone.org
Jun 02 18:08:34 <tony_tu> wpwrak: not this month, because flu
Jun 02 18:08:45 <DocMobilizer> re-connected
Jun 02 18:08:49 <ptitjes> mrmoku: I meant existing (and there are some people on it ;))
Jun 02 18:09:01 <mrmoku> ptitjes, talking about what? :P
Jun 02 18:09:28 <ptitjes> mrmoku: #freesmartphone.org
Jun 02 18:09:41 <ptitjes> mrmoku: haaa one the channel ?
Jun 02 18:09:42 <ptitjes> nothing
Jun 02 18:09:45 <ptitjes> :)
Jun 02 18:09:46 <roh> jc4 well.. what are billions without  team *ducks*
Jun 02 18:09:47 <mrmoku> :)
Jun 02 18:10:01 <mrmoku> roh, a good living? :P
Jun 02 18:10:06 <ptitjes> nevertheless that kicks my ass that we stay here
Jun 02 18:10:25 <wpwrak> roh: all the babes and drugs you could wish for, as long as you last ? :)
Jun 02 18:10:30 <roh> mrmoku not completely... dentist foo and nonworking sw
Jun 02 18:10:47 <ptitjes> sorry for that...
Jun 02 18:10:49 <roh> wpwrak don't need that much money for that *veg* live in berlin
Jun 02 18:11:13 <jc4> roh: I don't know, I don't even have a million.  I will let you know, once I have a billion.
Jun 02 18:12:06 * jc4 need to get some notes from Zimbabwe.
Jun 02 18:12:17 <wpwrak> roh: ;-) btw, have you tried milling Al yet ?
Jun 02 18:12:22 <DocScrutinizer> bat at 74% :-/
Jun 02 18:13:37 <roh> wpwrak not yet. but i mounted the cooling pumÃp last weekend
Jun 02 18:14:08 <roh> need some more 'bucketing' of the whoole construction and cooling fluid
Jun 02 18:15:30 <wpwrak> roh: aha, so you're planning to go fast :) i'm just doing a run with a 1.25 mm diam. drill. agonizingly slow :-( a safe top speed may be something like 0.03 ul/s.
Jun 02 18:15:46 <ptitjes> #freesmartphones is registered
Jun 02 18:15:53 <ptitjes> please guys consider moving
Jun 02 18:15:55 <ptitjes> off
Jun 02 18:16:16 <Ainulindale> You registered it?
Jun 02 18:16:17 <wpwrak> roh: (at about 0.06 ul/s, i had the drill snap)
Jun 02 18:16:24 <ptitjes> Ainulindale: yep
Jun 02 18:16:36 <Ainulindale> Well one might think it should be done by mickey|sun, shouldn't it?
Jun 02 18:17:09 <wpwrak> roh: 0.03 ul/s = diameter 1.25 mm, depth 0.25 mm, lateral speed 0.1 mm/s
Jun 02 18:17:13 <Ainulindale> (by the way, reply to my mail)
Jun 02 18:17:13 <ptitjes> Ainulindale: he will acknowledge for sure as they already have #freesmartphone.org
Jun 02 18:18:08 <Ainulindale> And anyway, why move from here?
Jun 02 18:18:22 <Ainulindale> I'm fine here, there's my butt print on the couch
Jun 02 18:18:34 <ptitjes> héhéhéhé
Jun 02 18:19:20 <wpwrak> Ainulindale: oh, by the way, how's "the situation" ?
Jun 02 18:19:37 <ChristW> It seems that it now gies further down the line (the 'make image')
Jun 02 18:20:02 <ChristW> Difference from before: No more FireFox, this is ircII that I'm using.
Jun 02 18:20:05 * mirko-paroli moved
Jun 02 18:20:23 <ChristW> Seems that I need to get used to a whole new interface now :-)
Jun 02 18:20:24 <Ainulindale> wpwrak: weird
Jun 02 18:20:32 <mrmoku> ChristW, :)
Jun 02 18:20:33 <Ainulindale> wpwrak: I'll talk about that later
Jun 02 18:20:39 <Ainulindale> I'm a bit busy at the moment (still at work)
Jun 02 18:20:49 <Ainulindale> ptitjes: so, why move from here?
Jun 02 18:20:55 * vegyraupe moved as well
Jun 02 18:21:05 <ptitjes> Ainulindale: in fact, I do not think like that
Jun 02 18:21:08 <Ainulindale> (and answer to my mail or I shall kick your ass, and you know I will)
Jun 02 18:21:15 <ptitjes> Ainulindale: I just wonder why to stay :)
Jun 02 18:21:37 <Ainulindale> Well because SHR still is a community distro for OM devices, for now
Jun 02 18:21:55 <Ainulindale> And because we communicate with OM developers
Jun 02 18:22:00 <Ainulindale> (that is, 3rd party software)
Jun 02 18:22:03 <ptitjes> Ainulindale: and for eten... right ?
Jun 02 18:22:09 <Ainulindale> it's not functional
Jun 02 18:22:24 <Ainulindale> (I'm off for two minutes, going to pick up something to drink)
Jun 02 18:22:41 * ptitjes does the same
Jun 02 18:22:47 * mrmoku thought Ainulindale would still be at work... now he's starting to drink ;)
Jun 02 18:23:02 <Zorkman> the Fr drives him to drink probably
Jun 02 18:23:19 * mrmoku goes and gets some beer :P
Jun 02 18:23:34 * Zorkman wil need something stronger :)
Jun 02 18:23:59 <Zorkman> i'm still awaiting the first person to send a rant mail in response to seans mail :D
Jun 02 18:25:42 <ptitjes> Zorkman: I was pretty sure you were writing that mail...
Jun 02 18:25:43 <ptitjes> :D
Jun 02 18:27:09 <ChristW> Running task 592 of 7251
Jun 02 18:27:13 <Ainulindale> ptitjes: talking about writing a mail... :->
Jun 02 18:27:25 <Ainulindale> ptitjes: Don't force me to cron my remark, I will
Jun 02 18:27:26 <ptitjes> yep received the message :)
Jun 02 18:27:28 <ChristW> Do I _really_ need all of this to build a single app to run on my FR?
Jun 02 18:27:36 <Zorkman> ptitjes: not me :)
Jun 02 18:27:55 <ptitjes> Zorkman: tatatata
Jun 02 18:28:01 <Ainulindale> Meanwhile, I'm off
Jun 02 18:28:06 <Ainulindale> I earned some time off I think
Jun 02 18:28:10 <Ainulindale> See you later, suckers!
Jun 02 18:28:23 <mrmoku> ChristW, no, you don't have to build the complete image
Jun 02 18:28:24 <ChristW> Later!
Jun 02 18:28:28 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, nah, what for? ;)
Jun 02 18:28:31 <Zorkman> time off is for the weak Ainulindale! :p
Jun 02 18:28:51 <mrmoku> ChristW, what app do you want to build?
Jun 02 18:29:20 <ChristW> mrmoku: Ah, so what _do_ I need to build stuff? As fas as I can tell, gcc has been build already.
Jun 02 18:29:28 <ChristW> Navit.
Jun 02 18:29:50 <mrmoku> ChristW, then just do: '. setup-env; bitbake navit'
Jun 02 18:29:58 <mrmoku> and it will build just the dependencies for navit
Jun 02 18:30:30 <ChristW> That'll save a lot of time, presumably...
Jun 02 18:30:52 <ChristW> I can pick up building the image later.
Jun 02 18:30:57 <mrmoku> yep
Jun 02 18:32:06 <ChristW> I'll see where that'll take me, I'll check back for progress tomorrow.
Jun 02 18:32:15 <mrmoku> k, good luck
Jun 02 18:33:08 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: got mail
Jun 02 18:33:13 <DocScrutinizer> cya
Jun 02 18:33:42 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, ahh, ok thanks
Jun 02 18:33:53 * mrmoku got reminded about some building project :P
Jun 02 18:34:20 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, what is the socket stuff needed for?
Jun 02 18:45:16 <DocMobilizer> mrmoku: cli talks to persistent (gui)instance via socket. great  for tweaking to dbus
Jun 02 18:45:56 <mrmoku> DocMobilizer, ah, ok :)
Jun 02 18:47:52 <mrmoku> DocMobilizer, so instance could as well be a dbus-server :)
Jun 02 18:48:36 <DocMobilizer> thTs the idea
Jun 02 18:49:59 <DocMobilizer> otwinkleSIMd
Jun 02 18:50:25 <mrmoku> :)
Jun 02 18:53:26 <DocMobilizer> i'd love to help with review of (api) design
Jun 02 18:53:58 <mrmoku> DocMobilizer, browsing twinkle source... will be quite a challenge
Jun 02 18:54:50 <DocMobilizer> nah, the socket thing is fairly easy afair
Jun 02 18:56:40 <DocMobilizer> mrmoku: prolly the libs are the mayor pita
Jun 02 18:57:08 <raster> twinklepain
Jun 02 18:57:12 <mrmoku> raster, :P
Jun 02 18:57:21 <raster> mrmoku: :-D
Jun 02 18:57:40 <mrmoku> DocMobilizer, hmm... if it's only cmd_socket.h... yes
Jun 02 18:57:42 <raster> really tho - u'd want the backend only - not the qt gui thats there
Jun 02 18:57:44 <raster> and a new gui
Jun 02 18:57:54 <mrmoku> raster, that's what we're talking about :)
Jun 02 18:58:06 <mrmoku> raster, abuse it as sip lib
Jun 02 18:59:04 <DocMobilizer> raster: theres a cli-only version. always been there
Jun 02 18:59:05 <mrmoku> raster, and integrate it in fso
Jun 02 18:59:17 <raster> mrmoku:  that doesnt seem like a bad idea imho
Jun 02 18:59:25 <raster> DocMobilizer:  yup. you showed me
Jun 02 18:59:42 <raster> DocMobilizer: tag a small-screen-friendly gui on top.
Jun 02 19:00:10 * mrmoku wants to see that integrated in frameworkd (in the end)
Jun 02 19:01:42 <raster> imho sip and gsm calls should have a level of abstraction
Jun 02 19:01:53 <raster> sure with sip/voip having somedifferent properites
Jun 02 19:01:55 <raster> and gsm others
Jun 02 19:02:05 <raster> butthere is a common subset that they both have that can be shared
Jun 02 19:02:26 <mrmoku> raster, like the address book... the dialer...
Jun 02 19:02:27 <raster> and as long as the common subset is used just for mking basic calls... then u cn abstract the calling mechanism entirely
Jun 02 19:02:39 <raster> well i was justr thinking dialler right now
Jun 02 19:02:43 <raster> and incoming call handling
Jun 02 19:02:56 <raster> addressbook is alredy its own datastore thancan hold contatcinfo for oth
Jun 02 19:02:57 <raster> both
Jun 02 19:03:12 <raster> as contact id's are strins either way
Jun 02 19:05:36 <raster> (a string of numbers for gsm and for voip a stream of numbers for a skype-out voip to pstn target or something else for voip/skype/whatever specifc targets
Jun 02 19:07:13 <mrmoku> the original opimd design has prefixes... sip:// and tel:// to distinguish numbers...
Jun 02 19:08:33 <raster> sure
Jun 02 19:08:45 <raster> and the abstraction can add those where needed
Jun 02 19:08:49 <raster> for gsm it wont want it
Jun 02 19:08:59 <raster> ie a gsm call can ONLY use the phone number
Jun 02 19:09:06 <raster> voip can use it - but add tel:// etc.
Jun 02 19:09:15 <raster> a sip contact cannot be used for gsm
Jun 02 19:09:16 <raster> etc.
Jun 02 19:22:04 <DocScrutinizer> raster: yup. it's quite complex. for now we will be happy to provide a cli-SIP, and a simple plain SIP-dbus-server for next iteration
Jun 02 19:22:52 <DocScrutinizer> some ovoicecalld can build on this (plus gsmd, pimd etc) eventually
Jun 02 19:23:24 <raster> sure
Jun 02 19:42:44 <ST1> hi  :)
Jun 02 19:46:42 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: the great thing with twinkle is the clear separation of SIP core and GUI foo
Jun 02 19:50:09 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, building the first dep now... commoncpp2 :)
Jun 02 19:50:24 <mrmoku> and it just finished nicely :D
Jun 02 19:50:26 <DocScrutinizer> the nasty one
Jun 02 19:50:30 <mrmoku> up to the next one
Jun 02 19:50:31 <DocScrutinizer> wooow
Jun 02 19:50:38 <mrmoku> no, not the nasty one... that one was easy
Jun 02 19:51:16 <DocScrutinizer> probably some of the codecs are really nasty for float
Jun 02 19:53:57 <DocScrutinizer> luckily we need only one of them for first tests
Jun 02 20:22:50 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: btw I'd recommend static linking
Jun 02 20:24:47 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, why that?
Jun 02 20:25:40 <ST1> Is there any FSO developpers there ? Or does anyone knows one ?
Jun 02 20:26:28 <DocScrutinizer> well, the libs (a lot of them) aren't used for any other project, and I'd hope for smaller mem footprint and faster execution, as well as much simpler management of dependencies
Jun 02 20:27:29 <DocScrutinizer> no expert here though (except for lib versions hell with twinkle)
Jun 02 20:27:44 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, hmm... dunno. btw. it's not that much libs... (at least looking at the README)
Jun 02 20:28:10 <DocScrutinizer> yup, but those always created issues
Jun 02 20:28:24 <mrmoku> just commoncpp2 (which I successfully built) and two ccrtp libs (which do not build due to some autotools failure)
Jun 02 20:28:30 <DocScrutinizer> for me at least
Jun 02 20:28:53 <DocScrutinizer> and for SuSE ;-)
Jun 02 20:31:11 <DocScrutinizer> hooray for autotools :-S
Jun 02 20:34:18 <max_posedon> DocScrutinizer: static linking - BS
Jun 02 20:34:30 <mrmoku> DocScrutinizer, do I have to build the qt interface even if I don't use it?
Jun 02 20:34:32 <max_posedon> plz never suggest it anobody
Jun 02 20:34:47 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: don't think so
Jun 02 20:39:49 <DocScrutinizer> the make in src/ shouldn't reference anything in src/gui/
Jun 02 20:40:14 <DocScrutinizer> aiui
Jun 02 21:00:35 <Deubeuliou> Ainulindale: ping ?
Jun 02 21:00:38 <Deubeuliou> onen|openBmap: pong
Jun 02 21:03:29 <onen|openBmap> Deubeuliou: hey wassup?
Jun 02 21:03:53 <onen|openBmap> Deubeuliou: you forgot to mention me in the French people at last FSOSHRUDCON on French planet article :P
Jun 02 21:04:11 <Deubeuliou> I made great progresses on debugging my app
Jun 02 21:04:16 <Deubeuliou> whaaaat ???? did I ???? oO
Jun 02 21:04:30 <Deubeuliou> ow :'(
Jun 02 21:05:07 <Deubeuliou> sorry, I'm mailing swap38
Jun 02 21:05:40 <onen|openBmap> Deubeuliou: you don't have to... but of course I would appreciate to let an openBmap trace ;-)
Jun 02 21:06:26 <mrmoku> ptitjes, go and get it
Jun 02 21:06:40 <ptitjes> \o/
Jun 02 21:07:01 <Deubeuliou> hi Didier
Jun 02 21:07:17 <ptitjes> houhou new kernel too
Jun 02 21:07:51 <ptitjes> hi David
Jun 02 21:08:34 <Deubeuliou> ptitjes: as I said, I'm close having a working Dialer (not connected to dbus yet, however.) the only part left is the agnosticism layer
Jun 02 21:08:54 <Deubeuliou> at first, I'll just write it for Gtk
Jun 02 21:09:09 <ptitjes> Deubeuliou: hum let's meet quickly then
Jun 02 21:09:21 <Deubeuliou> but It would be easy to write any layer for any toolkit (say... ncurse :p)
Jun 02 21:09:35 <Deubeuliou> Thursday afternoon at the Passages ?
Jun 02 21:09:48 <ptitjes> Deubeuliou: we'll just introduce commands for now
Jun 02 21:10:02 <Deubeuliou> ah, right, I have to look further at MVP
Jun 02 21:10:02 <Ainulindale> Deubeuliou: agnosticism? 
Jun 02 21:10:05 <ptitjes> ouh I forgot that one
Jun 02 21:10:06 <Ainulindale> What are you working on?
Jun 02 21:10:19 <Deubeuliou> libframeworkd-phonegui-*
Jun 02 21:10:26 <Ainulindale> Well we don't have the specs yet
Jun 02 21:10:31 <Deubeuliou> I know
Jun 02 21:10:32 <Ainulindale> Why are you working on that?
Jun 02 21:10:42 <Deubeuliou> but it will be easy to change that
Jun 02 21:10:54 <DocScrutinizer> yeeehaaaaaaaaaa
Jun 02 21:10:56 <Ainulindale> No it won't
Jun 02 21:10:58 <Deubeuliou> I'm "working" on it for two months, now :p
Jun 02 21:11:01 <Deubeuliou> mmmh
Jun 02 21:11:03 <Ainulindale> Deubeuliou: Well you shouldn't
Jun 02 21:11:10 <Ainulindale> This has to be a community development
Jun 02 21:11:15 <Ainulindale> We have to have the needs right
Jun 02 21:11:15 <Deubeuliou> it is
Jun 02 21:11:20 <Deubeuliou> check the git
Jun 02 21:11:21 <Ainulindale> If you do something by yourself I'm sorry to say I won't take it
Jun 02 21:11:27 <Ainulindale> Deubeuliou: I saw no mail about that
Jun 02 21:11:32 <Deubeuliou> mmmmmh
Jun 02 21:11:39 <Ainulindale> Neither did I see specifications approved or talked about
Jun 02 21:11:42 <DocScrutinizer> Ainulindale: seems that's the generic OM way ;->
Jun 02 21:11:53 <Deubeuliou> ? I'm just using the existing specs
Jun 02 21:12:09 <Ainulindale> Deubeuliou: There are no existing specs
Jun 02 21:12:12 <Deubeuliou> the ones due to be replaced
Jun 02 21:12:24 <Ainulindale> Yeah, by something we still don't know what it'll look like
Jun 02 21:12:55 <Deubeuliou> yes, could I speak to you for a minute ?
Jun 02 21:12:59 <Ainulindale> But the current ones are dead, and I don't intend people to work on them anymore for SHR as we need to rethink that
Jun 02 21:13:02 <Ainulindale> Yep
Jun 02 21:13:05 <Ainulindale> Do you want to phone me?
Jun 02 21:13:22 <Deubeuliou> mhh, irc will be ok, I think
Jun 02 21:13:22 <Ainulindale> (it's easier, I could lie around in my bed and touch myself while listening)
Jun 02 21:13:29 <Deubeuliou> ok, as you want :D
Jun 02 21:13:34 <Deubeuliou> turn the webcam on, then
Jun 02 21:13:48 <DocScrutinizer> spec: "we need a phone". Do 6 prototypes. Then wonder what's the definition of "phone" anyway :: the OM way
Jun 02 21:14:04 <Ainulindale> Deubeuliou: just to make sure we're on the same page, I'd rather do that by phone
Jun 02 21:14:18 <Deubeuliou> k
Jun 02 21:14:21 <Ainulindale> I wouldn't like you to think I don't value any kind of work even if I disagree
Jun 02 21:14:34 <Ainulindale> I just want to make my point properly :-)
Jun 02 21:14:43 <Ainulindale> (Plus I think I'm ill I shake a bit)
Jun 02 21:14:49 <Ainulindale> (so easier if I can rest in my bed)
Jun 02 21:14:55 <Ainulindale> (or lie on my couch with a beer)
Jun 02 21:15:02 <Ainulindale> (which is the proper manly way to cure an illness)
Jun 02 21:15:29 <Ainulindale> (I'm sure DocScrutinizer will agree)
Jun 02 21:15:34 <ptitjes> ^^^  8-| ^^^
Jun 02 21:15:37 <ptitjes> ???
Jun 02 21:15:53 * ptitjes goes for another beer too
Jun 02 21:15:56 <Ainulindale> ptitjes: was?
Jun 02 21:16:23 <ptitjes> [11:15pm] <Ainulindale>
Jun 02 21:16:24 <ptitjes> (which is the proper manly way to cure an illness)
Jun 02 21:16:32 <Ainulindale> what?
Jun 02 21:16:46 <ptitjes> beer ?
Jun 02 21:16:58 <ptitjes> nahh
Jun 02 21:17:00 <DocScrutinizer> might help
Jun 02 21:17:14 <ptitjes> wiskey does
Jun 02 21:17:16 <DocScrutinizer> jaegermeister works better tho
Jun 02 21:17:50 <DocScrutinizer> not more tha 0.15L
Jun 02 21:18:30 <DocScrutinizer> YMMV ;-D
Jun 02 21:19:10 <ptitjes> wow
Jun 02 21:26:40 <mrmoku> ptitjes, wow what?
Jun 02 21:27:17 <ptitjes> oh I got to flash...
Jun 02 21:27:56 <ptitjes> mrmoku: was thinking that maybe 0.15L was a bit too much for DocScrutinizer, as he is not very thick...
Jun 02 21:28:01 <ptitjes> :p
Jun 02 21:28:57 <DocScrutinizer> hmm, I easly can stand this, but I found it's not helpful for curing cold to have more tha this ;-)
Jun 02 21:32:22 <ptitjes> pfffff
Jun 02 21:32:25 <ptitjes> words
Jun 02 21:32:29 <ptitjes> ;)
Jun 02 21:44:36 <Ainulindale> ptitjes: DocScrutinizer is thick
Jun 02 21:44:40 <Ainulindale> He's not fat that's all
Jun 02 21:45:13 <ptitjes> nah you are so thin - you don't have the good point of view
Jun 02 21:45:18 <ptitjes> :D
Jun 02 21:45:24 <Ainulindale> ptitjes: you didn't get my double entendre
Jun 02 21:45:45 <Ainulindale> http://translate.google.fr/translate_t# <=
Jun 02 21:45:49 <Ainulindale> check for thick
Jun 02 21:46:08 <Ainulindale> Plus I'm not that thin
Jun 02 21:46:12 <ptitjes> :p
Jun 02 21:46:15 <Ainulindale> At least not as thin as your mail I'm still waiting for
Jun 02 21:46:39 <ptitjes> easy one
Jun 02 21:46:39 * DocScrutinizer away for some meal
Jun 02 21:46:40 <Ainulindale> (I'm doing my crontab -e as we speak to mail you hourly about that)
Jun 02 21:46:51 <ptitjes> yeh DocScrutinizer :)
Jun 02 21:46:59 <ptitjes> godd thinking
Jun 02 21:47:04 <ptitjes> s/godd/good
Jun 02 21:48:03 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: booting
Jun 02 21:48:07 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: I'm panicing
Jun 02 21:48:31 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, well... just do what it tells you... DON'T PANIC ;)
Jun 02 21:48:54 <Ainulindale> Okay I'll try
Jun 02 21:48:57 <Ainulindale> But just because it's you
Jun 02 21:49:02 <mrmoku> :)
Jun 02 21:49:03 <Ainulindale> (drinking one of your beers)
Jun 02 21:49:06 <Ainulindale> (getting used to it)
Jun 02 21:49:07 <Ainulindale> (that's sad)
Jun 02 21:49:17 <Ainulindale> (I had to revise all my opinions about german beer, some of them aren't crap)
Jun 02 21:49:17 <mrmoku> hehe
Jun 02 21:49:21 <Ainulindale> (most of them still are though)
Jun 02 21:49:36 <mrmoku> yup there is lots of crappy beer... everywhere :P
Jun 02 21:49:41 <wpwrak> Ainulindale: only the first ones :)
Jun 02 21:49:47 <Ainulindale> Meh :-)
Jun 02 21:49:57 <mrmoku> first five... then it doesn't matter ;)
Jun 02 21:50:25 <DocScrutinizer> s/meal/5 beers/
Jun 02 21:50:45 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: sheesh
Jun 02 21:50:48 <Ainulindale> You're not human
Jun 02 21:50:52 <Ainulindale> I'm sure you're a cyborg
Jun 02 21:51:01 <Ainulindale> Do you buzz when you sleep?
Jun 02 21:51:10 <DocScrutinizer> heh, how did you find out?
Jun 02 21:51:29 <Ainulindale> Well I'd tell you if I didn't worry about you freaking out
Jun 02 21:52:07 * DocScrutinizer suspects Ainulindale sneaked nto his single bed room at F9N
Jun 02 21:53:33 <Ainulindale> Well I'd have "buzz fixed" you if that was the case. Did you check if someone soldered something on your back panel?
Jun 02 21:53:36 * Ainulindale coughs
Jun 02 21:54:18 <Ainulindale> (all this sexual innuendo just for DocScrutinizer's sake)
Jun 02 21:55:07 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: problem
Jun 02 21:55:10 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: mouse cursor
Jun 02 21:55:19 <Ainulindale> this is ugly
Jun 02 21:57:29 <onen|openBmap> night guys
Jun 02 22:01:02 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: plus can't ping it
Jun 02 22:01:36 <Ainulindale> (rebooted, retried, no luck with it)
Jun 02 22:01:50 <Ainulindale> Can't ping host from device either
Jun 02 22:03:19 <McKael> FWIW (re: mrmoku's email) upgrading from oemerge to unstable worked for me
Jun 02 22:03:51 <McKael> ffalarms seems broken since package alsa-scenarii-shr was introduced (still uses old scenarii path)
Jun 02 22:04:56 <mrmoku> McKael, good to know... I wanted to get woken up by ffalarms tomorrow :P
Jun 02 22:05:06 <McKael> haha
Jun 02 22:05:30 <McKael> maybe a symlink can do the trick :)
Jun 02 22:05:36 <mrmoku> :)
Jun 02 22:05:55 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, bad idea to rename the scenarii dir... even if it is gramatticaly more correct :P
Jun 02 22:05:59 <viq> !seen bumbl
Jun 02 22:06:08 <viq> ~seen bumbl
Jun 02 22:06:09 <bzzbot> bumbl <n=bumbl@91-114-191-203.adsl.highway.telekom.at> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko-cdevel, 5h 4m 8s ago, saying: 'my chance ;p'.
Jun 02 22:06:29 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, did you plug in the cable? :P
Jun 02 22:07:09 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, what does ifconfig tell?
Jun 02 22:07:44 <McKael> Is there still a known issue with the wifi driver?  My FR sometimes freezes - or sometimes panics - when I play with my network setup...
Jun 02 22:08:21 <mrmoku> McKael, hmm... I was playing with wifi the last days... and hat no freezes or kernel panics
Jun 02 22:08:25 <mrmoku> s/hat/had/
Jun 02 22:08:25 <bzzbot> mrmoku meant: McKael, hmm... I was playing with wifi the last days... and had no freezes or kernel panics
Jun 02 22:08:31 <McKael> And I don't think I can shut down the wifi properly at all
Jun 02 22:08:50 <mrmoku> sometimes I have to reboot to make it work again
Jun 02 22:09:11 <McKael> mrmoku: can you stop it and re-enable it later?
Jun 02 22:09:29 <mrmoku> McKael, yep, at least sometimes
Jun 02 22:09:48 <McKael> Ok, I should find a way to reproduce it
Jun 02 22:10:02 <McKael> But it's good to hear there's hope :)
Jun 02 22:10:32 <ST1> ~seen dos1
Jun 02 22:10:33 <bzzbot> dos1 <n=dos@unaffiliated/dos1> was last seen on IRC in channel #openmoko-cdevel, 2d 2h 5m 11s ago, saying: ':)'.
Jun 02 22:11:45 <ST1> ~seen ST1
Jun 02 22:11:46 <bzzbot> st1 is currently on #openmoko-cdevel (2h 29m 33s). Has said a total of 4 messages. Is idling for 0s, last said: '~seen ST1'.
Jun 02 22:16:13 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: 192.168.0.202   *               255.255.255.255 UH    0      0        0 eth3
Jun 02 22:16:31 <DocScrutinizer> eth3      Link encap:Ethernet  HWaddr 00:1F:11:01:22:75
Jun 02 22:16:32 <DocScrutinizer>           inet addr:192.168.0.200  Bcast:192.168.0.255  Mask:255.255.255.0
Jun 02 22:17:15 <DocScrutinizer> mrmoku: 
Jun 02 22:17:17 <DocScrutinizer> --- 192.168.0.202 ping statistics ---
Jun 02 22:17:18 <DocScrutinizer> 8 packets transmitted, 0 received, +7 errors, 100% packet loss, time 7029ms
Jun 02 22:17:38 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: well everything is as usual
Jun 02 22:18:37 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: do you have mouse cursor too?
Jun 02 22:18:47 <DocScrutinizer> nope
Jun 02 22:18:51 <Ainulindale> Well I do
Jun 02 22:18:53 <Ainulindale> Fresh flash
Jun 02 22:19:27 <DocScrutinizer> might be me, first time eth3 :-s
Jun 02 22:19:34 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: did you try to fresh flash it?
Jun 02 22:19:41 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, not yet
Jun 02 22:20:11 <DocScrutinizer> anyway never tried to ssh to oemerge
Jun 02 22:20:15 <mrmoku> I built and synced the eten image
Jun 02 22:20:23 <mrmoku> rest has to wait for tomorrow :P
Jun 02 22:20:34 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: well I did and it worked with a past image (with overlay kernel patches)
Jun 02 22:20:40 <Ainulindale> (bbl)
Jun 02 22:21:09 <DocScrutinizer> oemerge from dunno few days ago here. initial release
Jun 02 22:22:03 <DocScrutinizer> maybe my laptop is borked. seen this occasionally wrt eth-if
Jun 02 22:22:35 <DocScrutinizer> probably knetworkmanager going nuts on ifconfig/route
Jun 02 22:23:28 <Heinervdm> I'm having a mouse courser too (fresh flash)
Jun 02 22:26:26 <DocScrutinizer> aayes, re-plug and ping works fine
Jun 02 22:27:57 <DocScrutinizer> but ssh wants a password now, which I seem not to know
Jun 02 22:28:15 <Blu3> so set one
Jun 02 22:28:21 <Blu3> you shoulda had one already :P
Jun 02 22:28:26 <DocScrutinizer> fsck :-/
Jun 02 22:28:41 <DocScrutinizer> had one on my testing in NAND
Jun 02 22:29:18 <DocScrutinizer> still I tought default is "no password"
Jun 02 22:29:50 <DocScrutinizer> freaking weird
Jun 02 22:30:35 <DocScrutinizer> pffff
Jun 02 22:35:42 <Ainulindale> DocScrutinizer: here, unplugged, replugged, no luck
Jun 02 22:36:13 <Ainulindale> From 192.168.0.200 icmp_seq=1 Destination Host Unreachable
Jun 02 22:36:19 <Ainulindale> I have that (same thing on the device)
Jun 02 22:36:34 <DocScrutinizer> yea Ur issue a real issue, here issue in front of monitor ;-)
Jun 02 22:37:48 <Ainulindale> Or issue is in the empty glass :-)
Jun 02 22:38:47 <Ainulindale> Well still no luck
Jun 02 22:38:53 <Ainulindale> This time it's not my fault :-p
Jun 02 22:39:41 <DocScrutinizer> fsck, /etc/passwd still has no pw for root, so obviously dropbear is kinda borked, no?
Jun 02 22:39:54 <Ainulindale> Missing override
Jun 02 22:41:27 <Blu3> i doubt /etc/passwd will ever have a password.  it should be in /etc/shadow
Jun 02 22:41:50 <DocScrutinizer> on fr?
Jun 02 22:41:54 <DocScrutinizer> sure?
Jun 02 22:43:05 <Blu3> oh lord.  :(  there is no /etc/shadow
Jun 02 22:43:11 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jun 02 22:43:14 * Blu3 adds another todo
Jun 02 22:43:35 <Ainulindale> I think I know why for USB.
Jun 02 22:44:00 <Ainulindale> Ah, no, I was wrong it seems.
Jun 02 22:44:15 <Ainulindale> So I guess mwester is the answer to life the universe and everything here
Jun 02 22:44:40 <DocScrutinizer> Blu3: as it's not exactly a multi-user device, it seems etc/shadow is of *very* low importance
Jun 02 22:45:34 <Blu3> that's not the point.  we use it for a growing variety of things at an increasing exposure to network traffic
Jun 02 22:45:52 <Ainulindale> Hmmm
Jun 02 22:46:02 <Ainulindale> Although it might just be because we're using AUTOREV for kernel
Jun 02 22:46:02 <DocScrutinizer> network traffic has nothing to do with shadow
Jun 02 22:46:07 <Blu3> i do network security engineering for a career.  such things catch my attention :)
Jun 02 22:46:11 <Ainulindale> which might not be a good idea
Jun 02 22:46:35 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: still awake?
Jun 02 22:46:52 <Blu3> sure it does, because that means we increase the possibility of exposure via applications using the network
Jun 02 22:47:09 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, fix your host ;)
Jun 02 22:47:25 <mrmoku> I flashed it... booted... my lovely networkmanger told me that the if is up
Jun 02 22:47:30 <mrmoku> and I can ping it :P
Jun 02 22:47:38 <DocScrutinizer> shadow is just to hinder brute force pw-recovery for *foreign* users. for own user there's no point in shadow
Jun 02 22:47:48 <mrmoku> mouse cursor I have too though :(/
Jun 02 22:47:53 <budfive> anybody know if dbus is still borked in unstable?
Jun 02 22:47:59 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: well I restarted the interface numerous times
Jun 02 22:48:36 <Blu3> budfive, except for ophonekitd being crashy, current unstable is working good for me
Jun 02 22:48:40 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, hmm
Jun 02 22:49:03 <DocScrutinizer> every network service running as root has access to shadow anyway, so...
Jun 02 22:49:11 <budfive> Blu3: hmm. gsm doesn't randomly stop working and suspend works every time?
Jun 02 22:49:14 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: let me try again
Jun 02 22:49:26 <Blu3> gsm works, and suspend works
Jun 02 22:49:31 <budfive> Blu3: ok, thanks.
Jun 02 22:49:53 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: no luck.
Jun 02 22:50:14 * Blu3 keeps mine at .202
Jun 02 22:51:23 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: ok seems my local udev was borked, sorry for that :-)
Jun 02 22:51:32 <DocScrutinizer> Blu3: and if a non-root network service opens read access to passwd, you for sure have other trouble than nonexistent shadow
Jun 02 22:53:01 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, np :)
Jun 02 22:53:13 <Blu3> doc, first.  nearly every program uses getent() family of functions which open /etc/passwd, next, most developers don't -intend- to be fetching root's password out of /etc/password, that's why they're called vulnerabilities
Jun 02 22:53:16 <Ainulindale> this cursor thing is more annoying though
Jun 02 22:53:46 <mrmoku> Ainulindale, it is missing the -nocursor arg in /etc/X11/Xserver
Jun 02 22:53:53 <mrmoku> don't know how it got lost
Jun 02 22:54:05 <Ainulindale> missing override I'd bet
Jun 02 22:54:09 <Ainulindale> as well as for dropbear
Jun 02 22:54:11 <Blu3> i quite doubt that fso/shr/others have made much effort at all with regards to security since most of them utterly break if they're not running as root
Jun 02 22:54:57 <Blu3> frankly, it appears that very little if any thought has been given to security of this software
Jun 02 22:55:18 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: no luck with grep I fear
Jun 02 22:56:04 <Ainulindale> xserver-kdrive-common - 0.1-r37 - /etc/X11/Xserver
Jun 02 22:56:30 <mrmoku> yep, but nothing changed that... hmm
Jun 02 22:56:42 <DocScrutinizer> Blu3: for this last statement - full ACK
Jun 02 22:58:19 <DocScrutinizer> and I didn't state shadow is useless, I just said it's *very* low priority
Jun 02 22:58:29 <Ainulindale> Blu3: well let's look at it that way
Jun 02 22:58:53 <Ainulindale> Would you prefer a waterproof, fireproof, bulletproof, pain-in-the-assproof framework with a low amount of functions and no UI
Jun 02 22:59:06 <Ainulindale> Or a quickly developed "not proof" at all thing with a WIP security implementation?
Jun 02 22:59:15 <Ainulindale> (albeit able to place phone calls)
Jun 02 22:59:32 <Blu3> ainulindale, i'm not bitching about it
Jun 02 22:59:42 <Ainulindale> I work in the security field, and I'm well aware of the issues here, I just think that it's important, yes, but not that much at this point
Jun 02 22:59:46 <Ainulindale> But I agree with you it's necessary in the end
Jun 02 22:59:55 <Ainulindale> And I'll gladly help you testing stuff
Jun 02 23:00:02 <Ainulindale> If you're willing to help on this specific topic
Jun 02 23:00:14 <DocScrutinizer> hoooray
Jun 02 23:00:18 <Ainulindale> Blu3: I know, just trying to tell my opinion :-)
Jun 02 23:00:25 <DocScrutinizer> users at last
Jun 02 23:01:02 <Blu3> i'm not bitching about it :)  i know that it should be attended to, and eventually we'll get to it.  just that we make some assumptions about things
Jun 02 23:01:10 * DocScrutinizer expects about everything will bork or need suid
Jun 02 23:01:12 <Ainulindale> well on that I agree
Jun 02 23:01:50 <Ainulindale> Do you know about a good app for wifi access by the way?
Jun 02 23:01:53 <DocScrutinizer> or -better- severe effort to fix
Jun 02 23:02:07 <Blu3> my sms app has tons of todo comments littering it
Jun 02 23:02:18 * mrmoku off to bed now... gnight all
Jun 02 23:02:25 <Ainulindale> mrmoku: g'night honey
Jun 02 23:02:34 <Blu3> sadly no.  i've not found any that aren't disappointing
Jun 02 23:02:39 <Blu3> 'nite mrmoku
Jun 02 23:02:55 <Ainulindale> well Blu3 if you're willing to help I'm all for it
Jun 02 23:03:02 <Ainulindale> I'll spend time helping and testing and correcting
Jun 02 23:03:18 <Ainulindale> I just think I can't help but focus on other stuff myself these days
Jun 02 23:03:27 <Ainulindale> And do the same for the team
Jun 02 23:03:29 <Blu3> well, i want to finish my app before looking into other stuff
Jun 02 23:07:58 <Ainulindale> live from freerunner
Jun 02 23:08:19 <Ainulindale> (through irssi)
Jun 02 23:09:58 <Blu3> =]
Jun 02 23:11:12 <Blu3> i need to build xchat
Jun 02 23:16:31 <Ainulindale> I can't recall with this Xserver thing is
Jun 02 23:18:30 <budfive> is opimd supposed to initialize its sqlite db somehow when used for the first time? I just upgraded to unstable, and shr-contacts now segfaults on startup
Jun 02 23:28:49 <Ainulindale> Woopsie for mrmoku
Jun 02 23:28:55 <Ainulindale> shr@opmbuild:~/shr-unstable/openembedded$ git status
Jun 02 23:28:55 <Ainulindale> # On branch fso/milestone5.5
Jun 02 23:29:49 <Ainulindale> (on the buildhost)
Jun 02 23:44:43 <Ainulindale> Argh
Jun 02 23:44:47 <Ainulindale> git blame & lart mrmoku|away 
Jun 02 23:44:53 <Ainulindale> http://cgit.openembedded.net/cgit.cgi/openembedded/commit/?h=shr/import&id=e7783271c8e304a4a670cc38a315692e72c7f002
Jun 02 23:44:58 <Ainulindale> This is what is causing us problems
Jun 02 23:45:02 <Ainulindale> You removed our override
Jun 02 23:45:05 <Ainulindale> whereas it is necessary
Jun 02 23:45:12 <Ainulindale> Bad Klaus ! Bad !
Jun 02 23:46:11 <DocScrutinizer> hehe
Jun 02 23:46:29 <CIA-69> SHR: 03deubeuliou 07libframeworkd-phonegui-gtk2 * r46368cf86490 10/data/layout.xml: heigth mistyped in the XML tree
Jun 02 23:46:30 <CIA-69> SHR: 03deubeuliou 07libframeworkd-phonegui-gtk2 * r23eaad3f689a 10/src/phonegui-numpad.vala: coords scaling at window size
Jun 02 23:46:30 <CIA-69> SHR: 03deubeuliou 07libframeworkd-phonegui-gtk2 * r5f82f02c10c8 10/ (data/layout.xml src/phonegui-numpad-parser.vala): height mistyped
Jun 02 23:46:31 <CIA-69> SHR: 03deubeuliou 07libframeworkd-phonegui-gtk2 * r8685f19ba40a 10/src/phonegui-numpad.vala: height mistyped
Jun 02 23:46:36 <CIA-69> SHR: 03deubeuliou 07libframeworkd-phonegui-gtk2 * reca64c518e6d 10/src/phonegui-init.vala: annotate the delegate with has_target=false
Jun 02 23:46:44 <Deubeuliou> (eh, forgot to push these commits)
Jun 02 23:49:08 * DocScrutinizer wonders: when ip-traffic on gprs is resuming the system, shouldn't same traffic also reset the dim/suspend timer? So on a constant stream of bytes down to FR it doesn't suspend/resume cycle periodically
Jun 02 23:50:54 <DocScrutinizer> oh well
Jun 02 23:51:40 <Ainulindale> mrmoku|away: I think we'll have to trigger another build if we truly want to get all the OVERRIDES now...
Jun 02 23:52:00 <Ainulindale> As because the openmoko override disappeared, and as I mirrored some openmoko stuff using the shr override
Jun 02 23:52:06 <Ainulindale> it build some stuff without it
Jun 02 23:52:14 <Ainulindale> and there's no telling what quickly (at least I won't)
Jun 02 23:52:36 <Ainulindale> s/build/built/
Jun 02 23:52:42 <Ainulindale> I'm tired now, I think i'll go to sleep
Jun 02 23:52:45 <Ainulindale> See you guys
Jun 02 23:53:38 <Blu3> doc, re. the dim/suspend, i think not
Jun 02 23:53:47 <Blu3> unless the user toggles a pref to do so
Jun 02 23:54:26 <Blu3> my windows phone lit up every single time i got an email, im, or text, and -- when it did periodic mail checks
Jun 02 23:54:35 <Blu3> so the battery life was pathetic
Jun 02 23:55:04 <Blu3> if the user is idle, a simple short bleep to indicate something new is usually sufficient
Jun 02 23:55:15 <Blu3> if the user wants to wake up the screen, that's his choice
Jun 02 23:55:32 <Blu3> but as a default, i'd suggest leaving the screen dark
Jun 02 23:56:05 <DocScrutinizer> yeah, all very nice but somewhat offtopic.
Jun 02 23:56:55 <Blu3> how, that's quite like what you were just wondering
Jun 02 23:57:13 <DocScrutinizer> actually FR *does* resume when gprs inbound. my question was clearly regarding to stop suspending that would lead to immediate resume anyway
Jun 02 23:57:15 <Blu3> as in; should a stream of gprs straffic resume the backlight?
Jun 02 23:57:52 <DocScrutinizer> please re-read my statement
Jun 02 23:57:58 <Blu3> sure, the cpu should resume, but not the screen
Jun 02 23:58:10 <Blu3> "shouldn't same traffic also reset the dim/suspend timer"
Jun 02 23:58:11 <DocScrutinizer> ack
Jun 02 23:58:59 <Blu3> unless the user chooses to keep the screen lit, then no.  and in turn, new traffic after it has already dimmed, shouldn't bring it bright again unless the user wishes it to
Jun 02 23:59:23 <DocScrutinizer> for now we don't have resume with dark screen. and we obviously have no reset of suspend timer, rather we have just reset of dim timer
Jun 02 23:59:41 <Blu3> we'll get there
Jun 02 23:59:54 <DocScrutinizer> nice, still off topic
Jun 03 00:06:08 <DocScrutinizer> let me put it this way: *now* my fr suspends+immediately resumes every 5sec (short dim timer settings) on constant irc msgs 1/sec. I think it should NOT constantly autosuspend and then instantly resume, if there's constant irc traffic of 1/sec. rather it should stay on (until maybe I suspend explicitly via powerbutton, where I agree it should NOT resume anymore on gprs traffic then (per default))
Jun 03 00:14:37 <DocScrutinizer> and I don't care at all about dimming here. it's merely about suspend/resume, and resetting the time causing suspend each time we see (inbound) gprs traffic
Jun 03 00:15:09 <DocScrutinizer> s/me c/mer c/
Jun 03 00:15:10 <bzzbot> DocScrutinizer meant: and I don't care at all about dimming here. it's merely about suspend/resume, and resetting the timer causing suspend each time we see (inbound) gprs traffic
Jun 03 00:16:16 <DocScrutinizer> actually my next recommendation was to keep the screen dim on resume, until user interaction
Jun 03 00:16:48 <DocScrutinizer> (of course only if it was dim at suspend time)
Jun 03 00:18:48 <DocScrutinizer> it's bviously up to the particular app to decide if the screen needs undim on resume - like: dialer for sure wants screen on inbound call, periodic wifi scan to a log for sure doesn't need
Jun 03 00:38:31 <mwester> Ainulindale,  the OVERRIDES change may have been a misunderstanding; I told mrmoku we needed to remove the bogus shr OVERRIDE.  I meant the one on line 8 of shr-autorev.inc, but I did not make that clear.
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