**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Sep 25 02:59:57 2010 Sep 25 07:47:13 hi Sep 25 07:52:57 <[Rui]> hi Sep 25 07:57:31 any nl Sep 25 07:57:51 any nexus alsa news ? Sep 25 08:13:21 it is the t-mobile g1 birthday 2day Sep 25 08:13:48 and also the anniversary for android devices @htc Sep 25 08:35:01 a nice date to publish SHR FOR G1 Sep 25 08:41:53 <[Rui]> pespin: hi, about your question with hoversels... Sep 25 08:42:15 <[Rui]> pespin: use an hover and place a scroller with the contents, how about that? Sep 25 08:46:11 [Rui], uhm no idea, it's first time I used hoversel/hover. I'll look at it, thanks :) Sep 25 08:46:48 [Rui], raster told me there are no scrollable hoveserels atm, but as always, patches welcome hehe Sep 25 08:47:08 but I don't feel capable of doing that atm Sep 25 08:47:26 <[Rui]> pespin: yes, there aren't any scrollable hoversels (perhaps there shouldn't be anyway) :) Sep 25 08:47:45 <[Rui]> pespin: a way around it could be to add an hover that has a scroller with a box with many buttons Sep 25 08:47:55 [Rui], it would be a good idea. I'm thinking of something similar than app menus in pidgin for example Sep 25 08:48:28 <[Rui]> huh? Sep 25 08:48:42 [Rui], run pidgin in FR and try to use menus on top of app. You'll see the scrolling there :) Sep 25 08:49:11 as there are too many options in menu, it scrolls down pressing at the down arrow beloew the options visible Sep 25 08:49:14 that's good Sep 25 08:49:20 <[Rui]> oh, I hate that Sep 25 08:49:30 lol Sep 25 08:49:57 [Rui], why? which solution do you see for that? Sep 25 08:50:17 <[Rui]> pespin: how many items are you considering? Sep 25 08:50:46 [Rui], its for timezones. I'm showing dirs + /usr/share/zoneinfo files Sep 25 08:50:54 if you clic a file, another hoversel appears Sep 25 08:51:01 and you can repeat the same in the subdir Sep 25 08:51:38 [Rui], I'm sorry but I have to go, I have a family lunch and have to pick up my grandparents ;) Sep 25 08:51:51 [Rui], is it ok for you to speak about this another day? ie tomorrow or so Sep 25 08:52:02 <[Rui]> bbye Sep 25 08:52:06 <[Rui]> sure if I'm around Sep 25 08:52:11 ok, great Sep 25 08:52:18 see ya Sep 25 08:53:04 hi, are freerunner and n900 battery swapable? Sep 25 08:59:47 gnutoo see log ;) Sep 25 09:06:02 ahh I think I didn't press the power on button long enough Sep 25 09:06:10 dcordes, ok logs here? Sep 25 09:06:42 ok Sep 25 09:06:49 dcordes has quit :( Sep 25 10:26:30 morning Sep 25 10:28:27 <[Rui]> morning! Sep 25 10:36:41 PaulFertser: Sep 25 10:36:47 ~flatbatrecover Sep 25 10:36:48 Remove battery for 1 minute. Insert battery. Plug powered Nokia wallcharger to device. Watch steady amber. Let sit and charge. Do NOT try to boot. After 30 min, you got either a) a booted up N900, b) flashing amber which means you can boot, c) steady amber going off - in this case start over again with ~flatbatrecover Sep 25 10:50:31 hi guys Sep 25 10:50:46 what's current status of cpufreq scalling in openmoko kernel? Sep 25 12:10:56 sigh Sep 25 12:11:12 Xorg doesn't want with adatpted xorg.conf for 2.6.28 Sep 25 12:11:22 and still no g_ehter Sep 25 12:11:35 s/g_ehter/usbnet/ Sep 25 12:11:35 GNUtoo|laptop meant: and still no usbnet Sep 25 12:12:50 GNUtoo|laptop: doesn't want? Sep 25 12:13:07 oops Sep 25 12:13:13 I mean no touchscreen on n900 Sep 25 13:22:52 hi mrmoku Sep 25 13:23:11 is uboot shipped for n900 shr-image rootfs? Sep 25 13:23:29 s/uboot/udev Sep 25 13:23:35 GNUtoo|laptop: udev, yep Sep 25 13:23:40 ok Sep 25 13:23:50 so why didn't it load the touchscreen driver? Sep 25 13:23:52 on 2.6.28 Sep 25 13:24:11 hmm, no idea Sep 25 13:24:33 works fine with the new kernel... and with the binary maemo kernel too, no? Sep 25 13:24:50 GNUtoo|laptop: recheck if your rootfs has udev, should though Sep 25 13:24:52 iwith maemo's kenrel I don't know Sep 25 13:24:53 ok Sep 25 13:25:59 should be Sep 25 13:26:22 should I really do the super-extra-battery-driver Sep 25 13:26:26 or can I do it later? Sep 25 13:26:40 until you don't have a working env... does not make sense Sep 25 13:26:46 ok Sep 25 13:26:54 then I'll ship the bad patch Sep 25 13:27:02 but don't push it to oe Sep 25 13:27:14 DocScrutinizer, wanted me to do that Sep 25 13:27:25 that's why I started Sep 25 13:34:54 umm, objections to the approach I suggested? Sep 25 13:37:28 aah, postpone it - well that's rather reasonable. You won't need battery state sysfs nodes if you can't get anything up and running to read them Sep 25 13:37:47 indeed Sep 25 13:37:55 because your approach is great Sep 25 13:38:05 but I fear that it would take more than 5 minutes Sep 25 14:31:48 mrmoku, hope this is of interested to you -> the other day I pressed the call button in contacts and just after that, someone called me. phoneui/system got kind of frozen. Had to pull the battery and restart. I'm afraid I couldn't get info, as I was in the middle of the street and I needed the phone (calling + getting called ;)) Sep 25 14:49:31 pespin: heh, fun :/ Sep 25 15:20:10 dos1: ping Sep 25 15:20:44 :P Sep 25 15:20:59 <[Rui]> good afternoon! Sep 25 15:21:59 moin Sep 25 15:28:31 dos1: ping :) Sep 25 15:28:52 mrmoku: pong :) sorry, i was configuring KDE and had to logout :D Sep 25 15:28:56 :P Sep 25 15:29:08 dos1: we need someone writing another plugin for fsodeviced ;) Sep 25 15:29:30 and as you seem to perfectly know how to do that... you're my #1 candidate :) Sep 25 15:31:25 mrmoku: what plugin? Sep 25 15:31:30 dos1: for wifi Sep 25 15:31:48 as we will probably go with the maemo 2.6.28 we don't have rfkill Sep 25 15:32:03 and need some plugin just doing 'ifconfig wlan0 up' when wifi is requested Sep 25 15:32:53 brb Sep 25 15:36:45 mrmoku: shouldn't be hard Sep 25 15:47:59 hmm Sep 25 15:48:14 buildhost does not reply (connection timed out) Sep 25 15:48:17 both ssh and http Sep 25 15:49:59 mrmoku, I'll try my image Sep 25 15:50:22 mrmoku, are you kidding? Sep 25 15:50:26 we need battery Sep 25 15:50:29 for fsodeviced Sep 25 15:50:30 before wifi Sep 25 15:50:42 GNUtoo|laptop: battery we need the module first Sep 25 15:50:48 module? Sep 25 15:50:52 kernel Sep 25 15:50:57 yes but which one? Sep 25 15:51:07 the modified openmoko one? Sep 25 15:51:16 dunno, one that somehow works Sep 25 15:51:37 the one that I'll push somehow works Sep 25 15:51:57 but is far from perfect Sep 25 15:52:11 and then... the battery gadget has nothing to do with fsodeviced Sep 25 15:52:26 as soon as I get it booting I'll try to get the openmoko one Sep 25 15:52:31 ok Sep 25 15:52:45 mrmoku, I know but there is a timeout screen which get correct battery Sep 25 15:52:50 dos1: yeah, buildhost down for me too Sep 25 15:53:04 GNUtoo|laptop: timeout screen? Sep 25 15:53:32 the screen with the slider Sep 25 15:53:39 with SHR written on it Sep 25 15:53:40 etc.. Sep 25 15:53:45 the lock screen Sep 25 15:53:55 ahh... the battery indicator in there Sep 25 15:54:01 yes, right Sep 25 15:55:02 on dream that's the only one which works Sep 25 15:55:03 GNUtoo|laptop: but that one should work too Sep 25 15:55:14 indeed if I port openmoko's changes Sep 25 15:55:25 the kernel26_powersupply plugin of fsodeviced should just work Sep 25 15:55:27 ohhh touchscreen works Sep 25 15:55:30 :) Sep 25 15:56:41 mrmoku: how that module should be called? Sep 25 15:56:47 good question Sep 25 15:57:13 g_nokia is not loaded tough Sep 25 15:57:20 dos1: n900_powercontrol? Sep 25 15:57:28 could handle bluetooth as well someday Sep 25 15:57:32 nokia900_powercontrol ? Sep 25 15:57:49 mrmoku: ifup/ifdown could be used also on something else than n900 i think Sep 25 15:58:09 dos1: yeah... ifconfig btw. not ifup Sep 25 15:58:27 ah, yup, of course Sep 25 15:58:44 then call it ifconfig :P Sep 25 15:58:44 hmmm Sep 25 15:58:47 update-modules was not run Sep 25 15:58:53 why? Sep 25 15:59:05 opkg-cl configure missing? Sep 25 16:00:01 powercontrol_ifconfig? :D Sep 25 16:00:17 fine for me Sep 25 16:04:02 note something: Sep 25 16:04:07 on the htcdream you have to do: Sep 25 16:04:13 modprobe wl1251_sdio Sep 25 16:04:19 modprobe msm_wifi Sep 25 16:04:24 ifconfig wlan0 up Sep 25 16:04:29 sorry Sep 25 16:04:35 /rfkill Sep 25 16:04:42 before wlan0 up Sep 25 16:06:29 what should we do for g_ehter/g_nokia? Sep 25 16:07:09 report to #oe ? Sep 25 16:07:50 GNUtoo|laptop: did you change the autoload in the machine.conf? Sep 25 16:08:03 and then... we should understand what g_nokia does in addition Sep 25 16:08:09 as g_ether works perfect for me Sep 25 16:08:31 yes indeed Sep 25 16:08:44 ok Sep 25 16:08:49 I'll try g_ether Sep 25 16:08:56 but recompiling the kenrel takes ages Sep 25 16:08:59 because of packaging Sep 25 16:09:07 about 20 min according to eric benard Sep 25 16:09:15 in #oe Sep 25 17:16:32 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07cornucopia * rcf79329cffef 10/fsodeviced/ (4 files in 3 dirs): fsodeviced: new module: powercontrol_ifconfig Sep 25 17:17:20 mrmoku, GNUtoo|laptop: ^^^^ Sep 25 17:17:32 it works on my laptop, so it should on n900 too :) Sep 25 17:17:49 ok Sep 25 17:17:51 thanks Sep 25 17:28:54 ~hail dos1 Sep 25 17:28:55 * apt bows down to dos1 and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Sep 25 17:35:02 dos1, could you do a battery charging plugin? Sep 25 17:35:48 GNUtoo|laptop: i'll try, but i don't know how to talk to charger from vala yet Sep 25 17:36:08 there is a script floating on the net Sep 25 17:36:12 ask doc for more details Sep 25 17:36:12 calling i2ctools for that would suck :P Sep 25 17:36:14 s/a/some Sep 25 17:36:16 ok Sep 25 17:36:42 not having the battery charging would suck even more Sep 25 17:37:34 dos1: I have a good version of that script Sep 25 17:37:48 with explanations of the values Sep 25 17:38:14 mrmoku: gimme ;) Sep 25 17:39:25 tests/mrmoku/n900/charge.sh.txt Sep 25 17:40:13 ouch Sep 25 17:40:17 buildhost got rebooted Sep 25 18:52:27 GNUtoo|laptop: do you have something to push before I build a new image? Sep 25 18:52:43 I'll push very soon Sep 25 18:53:44 ok, then I will wait :) Sep 25 18:58:42 mrmoku, are you in a hurry Sep 25 18:58:46 because I've to eat Sep 25 18:59:03 GNUtoo|laptop: np, I'm burried with daywork I can do meanwhile :) Sep 25 18:59:08 so... have a nice meal Sep 25 18:59:09 ok Sep 25 18:59:10 thanks Sep 25 19:38:41 hrmf, I need a fsck.jffs2 Sep 25 19:45:52 freesmartphone.org: 03seba.dos1 07cornucopia * r6b85f73754e9 10/fsodeviced/conf/nokia_n900/fsodeviced.conf: fsodeviced: conf: nokia_n900: use powercontrol_ifconfig Sep 25 19:52:25 daamn. matchbox-keyboard does not work. Sep 25 19:53:19 matchbox-keyboard-input-method installs a .desktop file with a typo... Sep 25 19:53:24 "MECHANSIM" Sep 25 19:53:39 also, categories does not contain Keyboard Sep 25 19:54:05 when I correct that, it shows up in e-wm's config Sep 25 19:54:20 but when I select it there, e-wm segfaults Sep 25 20:09:37 mrmoku, seems good now Sep 25 20:09:43 I'll prepare and push Sep 25 20:09:53 GNUtoo|laptop: great Sep 25 20:33:17 hello, is there anybody who can explain me how time synchronization is performed ? Sep 25 20:33:34 mrmoku, I'll push Sep 25 20:36:10 ouch conflict merge Sep 25 20:37:27 GNUtoo|laptop: conflicts where? Sep 25 20:37:38 I'll resolve it by hand Sep 25 20:38:23 ok Sep 25 20:41:27 mrmoku, what was the reason why the maemo's kernel is incomplete? Sep 25 20:42:34 because grepping for dvfs didn't find something Sep 25 20:43:36 ok found it Sep 25 20:44:46 meego's you mean? Sep 25 20:46:08 yes but I found it Sep 25 20:46:33 ok Sep 25 20:48:00 mrmoku, +CMDLINE_nokia900_shr is ok? Sep 25 20:48:11 if it's ok I push Sep 25 20:48:16 I visually inspected the patches Sep 25 20:48:18 mrmoku: i am looking for an alternative for my Freerunner. Is N900 supported by SHR ? Is the complete hardware supported by SHR kernel ? Sep 25 20:48:20 but didn't re-built Sep 25 20:48:25 GNUtoo|laptop: ok, push Sep 25 20:48:39 nschle85, hi one sec I'll push and I'll explain after Sep 25 20:48:40 nschle85: we are working on support for N900 Sep 25 20:49:37 GNUtoo|laptop: ok :-) Sep 25 20:50:06 pushed Sep 25 20:50:12 so,... Sep 25 20:50:20 basically you want better hardware Sep 25 20:50:41 unfortunately the better the hardware will be the less supported it will be Sep 25 20:50:45 to get an idea: Sep 25 20:50:54 http://wiki.freesmartphone.org/index.php/HardwareComparison Sep 25 20:51:00 that's the status Sep 25 20:51:23 * mrmoku building Sep 25 20:51:25 basically you've the choice between: Sep 25 20:51:34 htcdream/geeksphone Sep 25 20:51:39 palm-pre Sep 25 20:51:42 nokia900 Sep 25 20:51:44 so first Sep 25 20:51:49 do you need telephony? Sep 25 20:51:50 if so Sep 25 20:51:55 and if you can't wait Sep 25 20:52:01 the n900 doesn't have telephony yet Sep 25 20:52:06 and is in early stages Sep 25 20:53:24 nschle85, so do you need telephony or just a wifi device? Sep 25 20:53:39 and can you wait for telephony to come? Sep 25 20:53:45 or do you need the device right now Sep 25 20:53:45 ? Sep 25 20:54:42 GNUtoo|laptop: i need a working Phone running Linux applications Sep 25 20:54:58 ok Sep 25 20:55:04 do you live in europe? Sep 25 20:55:12 or in US/AU Sep 25 20:55:14 etc... Sep 25 20:55:20 do you need wifi? Sep 25 20:55:38 GNUtoo|laptop: yes need wifi, and GPS Sep 25 20:55:46 ok Sep 25 20:55:57 so the closest hardware is the htcdream Sep 25 20:56:00 I'll describe it Sep 25 20:56:08 first wifi does work but very bad Sep 25 20:56:11 it eat all power Sep 25 20:56:17 s/power/battery Sep 25 20:56:28 in one hour you could discharge your phone Sep 25 20:56:32 grrrr. current shr-u fails to activate internet over gprs. asks for sim pin twice and still doesn't connect. Sep 25 20:56:34 but it works Sep 25 20:56:52 the GPS works too Sep 25 20:56:54 Wonka: yup, GPRS is badly broken in current SHR-U :/ Sep 25 20:57:03 eat battery too, I think about 2 hours Sep 25 20:57:07 or something like that Sep 25 20:57:17 but I bet gps can be configured to eat less battery Sep 25 20:57:28 for wifi we need someone(kvalo) to look at it Sep 25 20:57:40 anyone feeling responsible for matchbox-keyboard? that's broken too Sep 25 20:57:51 playing music or watching movies works fine if you use mplayer Sep 25 20:58:04 altough for movies you need to be in portrait mode and to pre-rotate the video Sep 25 20:58:43 another big issue is the lack of multiplexing sound system Sep 25 20:58:57 I mean if you litsten to music and get a call, it only vibrates Sep 25 20:59:19 no dmix? Sep 25 20:59:28 no Sep 25 20:59:33 dmix needs mmap Sep 25 20:59:40 which add huge buffer underruns Sep 25 20:59:48 there is a patch Sep 25 20:59:56 but I wasn't able to make it run Sep 25 21:00:00 because of the API abuse Sep 25 21:00:00 GNUtoo|laptop: and why N900 is not for me ? Sep 25 21:00:08 nschle85, it's for you if you can wait Sep 25 21:00:19 because currently it can't make a phone call Sep 25 21:00:27 but everything is free software Sep 25 21:00:29 so... Sep 25 21:00:35 it should be possible in the future Sep 25 21:00:41 basically ofono can make a call Sep 25 21:00:48 ofono is free software Sep 25 21:00:50 GNUtoo|laptop: I heard that parts of kernel are closed Sep 25 21:00:54 we just have to integrate ofono Sep 25 21:00:58 nschle85, that's not true Sep 25 21:01:13 nschle85, a lot of maemo userland stuff is "closed" Sep 25 21:01:18 but kenrel is not Sep 25 21:01:31 but.... Sep 25 21:01:42 do you know meego Sep 25 21:01:55 a lot of meego components are free or will be free but: Sep 25 21:01:58 battery charging Sep 25 21:01:59 GNUtoo|laptop: i read about it Sep 25 21:02:12 thanks to DocScrutinizer it got decoded and implemented as free software Sep 25 21:02:19 s/decoded/read the specs Sep 25 21:02:23 and 3d Sep 25 21:02:28 3d is not mandatory in SHR Sep 25 21:02:37 so let's just not use it Sep 25 21:02:39 apart that: Sep 25 21:02:44 the usual firmwares Sep 25 21:02:48 and the schematics Sep 25 21:02:52 are not free Sep 25 21:03:10 I mean there are no schematics Sep 25 21:03:19 unlike the freerunner Sep 25 21:03:52 the issue with palm-pre is the wifi Sep 25 21:04:03 else it would have telephony and be great Sep 25 21:04:10 at least part of telephony Sep 25 21:04:20 I tried but failed with wifi Sep 25 21:04:25 I did the activator Sep 25 21:04:28 trough ssh Sep 25 21:04:37 but that's all Sep 25 21:04:51 then we need to have a modified wifi driver or something like that Sep 25 21:06:09 also the DSP are not so usable Sep 25 21:06:17 on omap hardware Sep 25 21:06:22 I mean the cpu is soo powerfull Sep 25 21:07:02 GNUtoo|laptop: so HTC Dream is more supported than N900 ? Sep 25 21:07:07 yes Sep 25 21:07:09 for now... Sep 25 21:07:16 more suported means Sep 25 21:07:22 that it's state is better Sep 25 21:07:27 if you're in europe Sep 25 21:07:31 you can make a phone call Sep 25 21:07:33 receive sms Sep 25 21:07:35 have 3g Sep 25 21:07:37 have gps Sep 25 21:07:54 sorry gps should work everywhere Sep 25 21:08:00 altough I must map the keyboard Sep 25 21:08:07 and finish the GUI Sep 25 21:08:13 because the top bar is too small Sep 25 21:08:19 the icons too Sep 25 21:08:20 etc... Sep 25 21:08:29 GNUtoo|laptop: and all parts of kernel are open ? Sep 25 21:08:52 basically on dream,n900,openmokos all part of kernel are open but that's not enough Sep 25 21:09:03 the htcdream is a bit special Sep 25 21:09:11 because you can have drivers in userspace Sep 25 21:09:16 I'll explain Sep 25 21:09:21 there is a main arm cpu Sep 25 21:09:28 where SHR runs Sep 25 21:09:34 then there is a modem Sep 25 21:09:41 which has some stuff attached to it such as: Sep 25 21:09:46 *battery handling Sep 25 21:09:50 *sound Sep 25 21:09:55 *modem obviously Sep 25 21:09:57 *gps Sep 25 21:10:31 the modem and the arm cpu where SHR runs can talk trough an rpc on top of shared memory Sep 25 21:10:38 that can be done in userspace too Sep 25 21:10:41 so... Sep 25 21:11:00 the GPS had to be reverse-engineered Sep 25 21:11:43 basically what lacks in the htcdream is: Sep 25 21:11:58 *a bit of polishing(GUI,keyboard,integrating gps and wifi) Sep 25 21:12:14 *some problematic blocking parts(wifi PSM, no mmap for alsa) Sep 25 21:12:29 *xrandr -o 1 Sep 25 21:12:52 also the developers coverage isn't broad for htcdream Sep 25 21:13:04 there is me,mickeyl,leviathan,and some other people Sep 25 21:13:34 some other people include alain2210 which unblocked the real suspend Sep 25 21:14:25 I almost forgott: camera doesn't work Sep 25 21:14:55 I must found out the order of the ioctls for sensors, it's just a mather of printks Sep 25 21:15:01 and bluetooth is not integrated Sep 25 21:15:06 and DSP are unknowns Sep 25 21:15:08 I didn't look Sep 25 21:15:22 indeed Sep 25 21:15:24 altough mp3 dsp is easy to do Sep 25 21:15:38 because there is an userspace program that is free and that works Sep 25 21:15:43 but video.... Sep 25 21:15:45 we didn't look Sep 25 21:15:55 the hardware itself is crappy engineered Sep 25 21:15:57 ... Sep 25 21:16:12 the drivers are.... Sep 25 21:16:16 I was able to take a look into a datasheets Sep 25 21:16:17 the hardware I don't know Sep 25 21:16:19 ok Sep 25 21:16:35 GNUtoo|laptop: so my question is: where is the bigger comunity and know how ? I prefer the N900 but i dont know, is that decisiuon right ? Sep 25 21:16:35 leviathan, I wrote an alsa driver and failed btw Sep 25 21:16:43 oh, oke... Sep 25 21:16:49 nschle85, if you can wait.... Sep 25 21:16:54 go for n900 Sep 25 21:16:58 but if you can't Sep 25 21:17:07 ahh GNUtoo|laptop Sep 25 21:17:07 be sure that you can port forward the port yourself Sep 25 21:17:10 just in case Sep 25 21:17:19 leviathan, basically it plays too fast Sep 25 21:17:23 leviathan, it's for nexusone Sep 25 21:17:24 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GTA04_revisions Sep 25 21:17:25 GNUtoo|laptop: i can wait but are the current problems resolvable ? Sep 25 21:17:26 ^^ Sep 25 21:17:35 hmm, ok Sep 25 21:17:40 nschle85, on what device? Sep 25 21:17:49 GNUtoo|laptop: N900 Sep 25 21:17:59 nschle85, basically here's the situation: Sep 25 21:18:04 GNUtoo|laptop: I wrote Sean an email, asked if he could get some OMAP4440 for prototyping Sep 25 21:18:06 everybody just got their devices Sep 25 21:18:08 didn't hear from here anymore Sep 25 21:18:12 ok Sep 25 21:18:15 perhaps he thinks I'm nuts Sep 25 21:18:16 >_< Sep 25 21:18:41 whats would be... uhmm... partially true xD Sep 25 21:19:11 but in this case its serious... Sep 25 21:19:13 -.- Sep 25 21:19:17 he shall answer Sep 25 21:19:33 leviathan, correct the mailing list link Sep 25 21:19:46 the here link Sep 25 21:19:52 in the page you just pasted Sep 25 21:20:55 done Sep 25 21:20:57 :-) Sep 25 21:21:08 leviathan, I tried many times to send a mail for keyboard and it never reached the xkb mailing list Sep 25 21:21:11