**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 11 02:59:57 2011 Mar 11 09:49:50 hi Mar 11 09:55:40 <[Rui]> hi all Mar 11 10:14:43 [Rui]: hi Mar 11 10:14:53 <[Rui]> captainigloo: hi! Mar 11 10:14:59 [Rui]: i made a new keyboard, based on the terminal one Mar 11 10:15:05 but with less keys Mar 11 10:15:19 <[Rui]> captainigloo: just yesterday I remembed something that would be useful for elfe, but now I can't remember what it was Mar 11 10:15:31 it could be good to add the feature you send yesterday on the EML Mar 11 10:15:34 <[Rui]> captainigloo: cool, but for now I'm just trying to add a ternary shift key :) Mar 11 10:15:48 yep that's a good point ! Mar 11 10:16:06 <[Rui]> yeah, I sent an updated patch, but now I'm having the opportunity to test the patch and I've found another bug in it (compile breakage) :) Mar 11 10:16:28 <[Rui]> e17 takes quite some time compiling Mar 11 10:17:33 yep, modules linkage takes too long Mar 11 10:19:24 <[Rui]> captainigloo: worse, I compile everything as an RPM, so it's a straight from scratch build Mar 11 10:19:36 <[Rui]> I think that if it breaks now, or if it doesn't work, I'll have to add an exception Mar 11 10:20:09 <[Rui]> captainigloo: I can see how it would be useful for a slimmed down terminal keyboard :) Mar 11 10:25:06 [Rui]: http://pastie.org/1659046 Mar 11 10:25:45 it could be good to add an alternate function for keys Mar 11 10:26:23 with longpress you could have numbers Mar 11 10:26:38 on the same key than a letter Mar 11 10:26:44 <[Rui]> yes Mar 11 10:27:01 that should not be hard to add Mar 11 10:28:49 captainigloo: new keyboard ? [Rui] and me only just had a conversation about that yesterday in #shr . I documented my recommendations in the wiki: http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/GUIGuide#FingerFriendliness Mar 11 10:29:06 <[Rui]> but that is wrong Mar 11 10:29:32 captainigloo: I would also love to see such long press for alternative keys thing Mar 11 10:29:46 captainigloo: it is important that we use as much room for the most frequently used buttons as possible Mar 11 10:29:53 <[Rui]> and should be out of that document, as it's not a matter of writing applications, that's infrastructure Mar 11 10:30:29 [Rui]: could you recommend a present page to move it to or should we create a new one ? Mar 11 10:30:48 there is an shr channel ?! Mar 11 10:32:21 <[Rui]> dcordes: it should probably be a discussion moeved to e-devel Mar 11 10:32:26 <[Rui]> captainigloo: yes Mar 11 10:34:26 [Rui]: agree Mar 11 10:34:27 <[Rui]> now I have to make him sleep again Mar 11 10:54:00 <[Rui]> back Mar 11 11:06:45 [Rui]: all babies asleep again :) ? Mar 11 11:06:57 <[Rui]> dcordes: only one, fortunately Mar 11 11:07:27 <[Rui]> the minutes I had a little ago he was playing, because he hadn't fallen asleep and I gave up trying :) Mar 11 15:39:38 <[Rui]> how do I clean my sms storage in the sim card? Mar 11 15:39:42 <[Rui]> it seems to be full, somehow Mar 11 15:42:29 dcordes: you said we need twitter because of average users... do you seriously think "average users" will be interested in systems like SHR in the forseeable future, twitter support or not?... Mar 11 15:43:42 [Rui]: use mdbus2 Mar 11 15:44:21 <[Rui]> dcordes: if you need twitter with elmdentica you can use supertwwt as a proxy service, either their site or your own Mar 11 15:50:04 antrik: yes I do think that Mar 11 15:50:37 <[Rui]> dcordes: thinking about the normal user right now is unrealistic and will only hurt us Mar 11 15:50:57 heyho Mar 11 15:51:01 captainigloo: ping Mar 11 15:51:07 <[Rui]> dcordes: we're light years from what a normal smartphone user expects in terms of apps and light years ahead of android in terms of platform Mar 11 15:51:15 [Rui]: I'm a normal user Mar 11 15:51:20 <[Rui]> but the platform is immature Mar 11 15:51:32 <[Rui]> dcordes: can you program? Mar 11 15:51:39 not really Mar 11 15:51:47 <[Rui]> dcordes: I didn't ask if you do program for this, but in any situation? Mar 11 15:52:01 <[Rui]> even if only at the university, did you learn it? Mar 11 15:52:15 <[Rui]> hell, you're using IRC in this day and age, you're already way beyond the normal user :) Mar 11 15:52:22 I have perfect command of the copy paste language Mar 11 15:52:48 no I didn't learn in. I'm not in tech field Mar 11 15:52:52 it Mar 11 15:53:03 this is just my hobby. Mar 11 15:53:16 goofing around open source software on phones Mar 11 15:53:17 <[Rui]> see, you're confirming you're way ahead of a normal user :) Mar 11 15:53:50 I am putting SHR on my phone because I believe I can use it to replace wince or android at some point Mar 11 15:54:07 <[Rui]> dcordes: what device is it? Mar 11 15:54:15 htcleo hd2 Mar 11 15:54:40 <[Rui]> wow, shr can be installed in there? cool Mar 11 15:54:41 it can run anything: wm6, wp7, android, ubuntu, shr :) Mar 11 15:55:04 <[Rui]> you're still way ahead of a normal user Mar 11 15:55:08 dcordes: "at some point" :-) Mar 11 15:55:19 anyway.. at that point, what I will be expecting is not much different than normal user Mar 11 15:55:30 <[Rui]> the normal user only cares about app X and Y, how cute it looks and if calls and sms and mms can be made, possibly some social networking too Mar 11 15:55:38 reliable phone calls, texting, web usage, decent battery life Mar 11 15:55:56 see! social networking :P Mar 11 15:56:03 obviously we want to appeal to the general public in the future... it just doesn't seem a good idea to make it a priority right now Mar 11 15:56:23 that's entirely doable. And I won't hop on your pessimistic train about all this being utopic Mar 11 15:56:58 antrik: it is my priority in SHR. tell me what is yours please Mar 11 15:57:29 the problem is that it's not enough to provide a system at the same level as the competition. to make the "average user" switch, we need something *way better*. and we won't get that by adding a twitter up to what we have right now... Mar 11 15:57:47 twitter app Mar 11 15:58:16 dcordes: my priority is to make it feasible as an everyday phone for somewhat technical users Mar 11 15:59:21 but does that include making it look nerdy and least attractive for some none technical people who might be able to use it as well ? Mar 11 15:59:45 (well, more precisely, for myself... though I'm actually more than a "bit" technical, my expectation in this area are probably similar :-) ) Mar 11 16:00:22 dcordes: I care about good looks actually Mar 11 16:00:30 I just don't care much about a twitter app ;-) Mar 11 16:01:22 <[Rui]> dcordes: btw, it's not elmdentica that doesn't support twitter, it's twitter that doesn't support elmdentica :) Mar 11 16:01:30 what I'm saying is that non-technical people are not able to use it (without considerably frustration) now or in the near future, so it doesn't make much sense to target them presently... Mar 11 16:01:39 <[Rui]> dcordes: it was working just fine until the stupid move to make oauth mandatory Mar 11 16:01:57 [Rui]: I don't care thinking about ideology there because I believe it is something that will make the images more attractive. that's all Mar 11 16:02:00 morphis: pong Mar 11 16:02:03 <[Rui]> dcordes: I only removed twitter specific parts of code because it was useless to have them Mar 11 16:02:13 [Rui]: some people actually think oauth is a good idea... in the free software camp, too Mar 11 16:02:26 antrik: I believe you are getting my point. this is not about twitter Mar 11 16:02:36 captainigloo: elfe does not look very well on the palmpre after your last changes Mar 11 16:02:37 <[Rui]> dcordes: let me say this again: you can use elmdentica with twitter, you just need to use supertweet or install supertweet in your server Mar 11 16:02:44 morphis: ah ? Mar 11 16:02:45 antrik: it is about opening your mind to think of types of users other than you Mar 11 16:02:45 captainigloo: buttom bar is very small Mar 11 16:02:47 <[Rui]> antrik: oauth has good uses, just has no good use on client apps. Mar 11 16:02:53 captainigloo: will do some screenshots later Mar 11 16:02:58 antrik: and also about making everything more attractive Mar 11 16:03:05 morphis: 1/10 of the space Mar 11 16:03:08 captainigloo: icons in app choose are small too Mar 11 16:03:22 <[Rui]> antrik: oauth adds no security towards basic auth for client applications, and adds more complex and insecure (due to insecure protocol) code. Mar 11 16:03:30 Why would you want to keep it in that little grey geek box ? Only for technical people ? why ? Mar 11 16:03:37 <[Rui]> antrik: it is a good middle term for delegating your identity to foreign websites. Mar 11 16:03:42 captainigloo: ah ok, you changed that Mar 11 16:04:15 <[Rui]> antrik: the whole security oauth adds is dependent on the secrecy of a pair of keys. Mar 11 16:04:23 <[Rui]> antrik: which with Free Software can't exist. Mar 11 16:04:41 <[Rui]> antrik: unless it's on a server, so it's Free Software, but it's data is not acessible to other people. Mar 11 16:04:43 morphis: wich revision are you using ? Mar 11 16:05:09 <[Rui]> antrik: any malign program can use oauth creds to pretend it's the app just the same as it could use user+password. Mar 11 16:05:17 <[Rui]> so on client apps it's useless. Mar 11 16:05:44 morphis: we need to talk about dbus/unity stuff Mar 11 16:05:45 dcordes: don't worry, I believe I actually understand "average users" better than most other developers. and it's precisely this that makes me understand SHR won't be a viable option for such users any time soon :-( Mar 11 16:06:04 captainigloo: ok, but can we do that later or tomorrow? Mar 11 16:06:09 or even by mail Mar 11 16:06:10 antrik: I don't care for your pessimsm. eof Mar 11 16:06:15 morphis at gravedo.de Mar 11 16:06:21 morphis: as you like Mar 11 16:07:01 captainigloo: ok Mar 11 16:07:16 captainigloo: I will drop you a mail, ok? Mar 11 16:08:33 I have to leave now Mar 11 16:08:33 cya Mar 11 16:08:48 <[Rui]> antrik: I agree wholeheartedly. Mar 11 16:08:49 [Rui]: I don't actually know anything about oauth, so your explanation is not helpful. but I'll assume you know what you are talking about :-) Mar 11 16:09:14 <[Rui]> antrik: as much as I would love to give my wife a Freerunner I'm glad I didn't insist with her and got her an Android Mar 11 16:09:28 <[Rui]> she'd be cursing me frequently, had I done so :) Mar 11 16:10:03 <[Rui]> antrik: as I tried to implement it natively, at first, rather than using a library, I got to see how it's "security" worked. it's incompatible with public display of code Mar 11 16:10:45 <[Rui]> antrik: so you either get one set of keys per installation (not as most oauth using sites work) rather than per app, or you can't publish information required to have the app working Mar 11 16:10:53 <[Rui]> antrik: if you do, it's insecure :) Mar 11 16:11:40 dcordes: I do *not* want to keep it "in the little grey box". quite the contrary, I'd love one day to be able to get a phone running SHR for my mom. but I believe that it's just not there right now. only once we have conquered the geek market, we have any chance of expanding beyond that... Mar 11 16:12:42 antrik: I am not saying I want to conquer anything tomorrow. But I do want to make it more attractive to _any_ potential user right now Mar 11 16:12:59 to make it attractive to "averag users", we need *many* more developers than we have now -- and we won't get those by offering a twitter app, I fear... Mar 11 16:13:08 (and yes, this is not really about twitter...) Mar 11 16:13:11 antrik: look at captainigloo's stuff. I am talking about these little things people love Mar 11 16:13:36 antrik: hello here is one new developer. Mar 11 16:13:55 <[Rui]> dcordes: we should incentivate that from new people :) Mar 11 16:14:15 if users like it, more developers will like it ! Mar 11 16:14:21 <[Rui]> dcordes: but I think that the core should concentrate on having the infrastructure working and in portability Mar 11 16:14:43 <[Rui]> dcordes: the reason why I started a GUI Guide, is that it's a bit of a pain to have different modes of working in each app Mar 11 16:14:46 nobody wants to contribute in something nobody likes ... I think it's easy as that. of course it has the geek appeal but must that be everything shr has to offer? I don't think so ! Mar 11 16:14:48 captainigloo's stuff is great; I'd love to see more such things... but I doubt captainigloo is waiting impatiently for a twitter client :-) Mar 11 16:14:58 (hope I'm not saying anything wrong here :-) ) Mar 11 16:15:03 <[Rui]> dcordes: while you can't impose, at least you can suggest modes of doing stuff Mar 11 16:15:40 <[Rui]> Sorry for repeating myself but... "elmdentica works with twitter, via a proxy service like supertweet" :) Mar 11 16:16:38 [Rui]: sorry for not replying to that.. thanks I will take a look Mar 11 16:17:26 antrik: i just never heard about twitter ;) Mar 11 16:17:36 I won't ever talk about twitter again if it makes everybody happy. Please understand that it as reprensentative for opening up to an additional group of potential users Mar 11 16:18:03 <[Rui]> but as twitter now forbids people from exporting their tweets, I actually recommend people to NOT USE twitter, but rather install their own statusnet server Mar 11 16:18:14 <[Rui]> then use twitter integration plugins, et voit-la Mar 11 16:18:21 voila* Mar 11 16:19:19 I knew it would start some controverse discussion, but at least now everybody got my point I hope Mar 11 16:20:00 dcordes: well, I'm not arguing against adding a twitter client... I'm just pointing out that it's not an important thing at the present state of affairs :-) Mar 11 16:20:30 (whereas shiny GUIs for the basic applications definitely are) Mar 11 16:21:21 antrik: cool then we agree with that. Mar 11 16:23:43 antrik: but still I'm not with the 'we can't make it now' attitude Mar 11 16:24:03 <[Rui]> dcordes: well, we can if you code :) Mar 11 16:24:15 <[Rui]> (even then..., one person can't do that much alone) Mar 11 16:25:58 where is the lack of GUI ? Mar 11 16:26:08 wich apps ? Mar 11 16:26:15 i could maybe help a bit Mar 11 16:27:19 [Rui]: not sure what to answer to this Mar 11 16:28:06 <[Rui]> dcordes: there's no answer you can give, it's a basic problem of human resources, we don't have enough to be able to achive. Mar 11 16:28:18 <[Rui]> dcordes: at most we can lay some groundwork with suggestions like those in the UI guide. Mar 11 16:28:36 <[Rui]> dcordes: but we're basically a GNU/Linux distribution that happens to know how to deal with telephony at its core. Mar 11 16:29:16 <[Rui]> dcordes: so you have LOTS of apps that won't EVER subscribe to such a guide (like pidgin, for instance) but are in the repos and are installable Mar 11 16:29:35 [Rui]: ok I get the point. I guess it is not a waste of resource if I start thinking about what I just pointed out.. I am glad wer are a linux distribution because I added this in the introductory sentence Mar 11 16:29:53 <[Rui]> dcordes: exactly. Mar 11 16:29:58 [Rui]: i.e. it won't slow the project down Mar 11 16:30:27 <[Rui]> dcordes: unless you're the ceo and you pay us all, you can't say this direction is what has to be followed Mar 11 16:30:34 [Rui]: and I didn't go tell anybody go add a twitter app. I just discussed this as an example of how to you can make stuff seem more attractive to ppl Mar 11 16:30:56 [Rui]: well are you the ceo to prohibit me talking about it ? Mar 11 16:31:00 <[Rui]> dcordes: sure, I'm just saying that PoV won't really work :) Mar 11 16:31:06 <[Rui]> dcordes: I'm not prohibiting you Mar 11 16:31:30 well you are claiming I am playing CEO don'T you ? Mar 11 16:31:52 <[Rui]> dcordes: nopes, definitely not! just pointing out that WE can only suggest stuff Mar 11 16:31:58 <[Rui]> and it will either get adopted or not Mar 11 16:32:13 <[Rui]> hence my remark at the beginning of the GUI Guide Mar 11 16:32:15 ok cause that's all I'm doing. sharing my thoughts Mar 11 16:33:01 <[Rui]> what I initially put there are things that appear to me like good ideas that if everyone follows when writing a GUI app considering SHR will provide a congruent environment Mar 11 16:33:22 <[Rui]> but they may be completely wrong Mar 11 16:33:24 <[Rui]> or not Mar 11 16:33:48 yep but you still wrote it down and that is the point Mar 11 16:34:46 if you don't say the stuff you want to suggest it won't be heard. that's prolly the reason not many of that kind of page exist Mar 11 16:34:57 cause people fear they will step the fellow devs feet Mar 11 16:35:08 <[Rui]> yup, so you know what you could do? Mar 11 16:35:24 <[Rui]> dcordes: perhaps compile a list of applications that do not exist but would be desired Mar 11 16:35:30 done Mar 11 16:35:33 linked on first page: Mar 11 16:35:47 http://shr-project.org/trac/wiki/Guidelines Mar 11 16:35:51 <[Rui]> it could / should include simply making new UIs for already existing apps, etc... Mar 11 16:36:40 captainigloo: hard to say exactly... it's just that SHR right now feels more like a random collection of apps in various maturity stages than an integrated phone suite. Qtmoko for example is much closer to what I'd expect a phone to work like... Mar 11 16:37:47 <[Rui]> antrik: qtmoko has one problem, IMHO, its based on a platform that had so many years to mature and yet... Mar 11 16:38:35 lol we need something like this for tablets http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LreI7ZOeg5k&feature=related Mar 11 16:39:15 <[Rui]> "As of 2006, Qtopia was running on several million devices, including 11 mobile phone models and 30 other handheld devices.[1]" Mar 11 16:39:21 yes, Qtmoko has issues too. but in some regards it's more advanced than SHR Mar 11 16:39:44 <[Rui]> I say that even though qtmoko is more advanced than SHR, it has a lot more years, a lot more devices, and yet it lacks so much Mar 11 16:39:46 including most of the UI Mar 11 16:39:52 <[Rui]> which is my point. Mar 11 16:40:00 <[Rui]> worse, it's a platform that's been abandoned by its makers. Mar 11 16:40:32 <[Rui]> dcordes: great! now you have to complete it :) Mar 11 16:40:43 it's free software... we don't need the original developers to advance the platform :-) Mar 11 16:41:15 my major concern with Qtmoko is that it's mostly a dead-end development-wise. though this would change if they indeed switch to FSO Mar 11 16:41:37 (and I personally don't like C++, but that's another matter ;-) ) Mar 11 16:43:38 BTW, I don't think Qtmoko really misses all that much. most of the issues that bother me are in hardware support, not the actual application level... Mar 11 16:43:58 (SHR has issues with both though) Mar 11 16:46:01 [Rui]: to me it's pretty complete (regarding the shipped stuff) Mar 11 16:46:09 [Rui]: if you think something is missing... Mar 11 16:46:47 <[Rui]> antrik: with cash pouring it it didn't develop. now it's too big. who uses it now? qtmoko and... ? Mar 11 16:56:32 antrik: yes i see Mar 11 16:56:40 i have the same feeling Mar 11 16:57:11 i'm developping a media center application for some time now (enna.geexbox.org) Mar 11 16:57:22 and i would like to give it a look for embedded devices Mar 11 16:57:37 i could maybe try to match the ui rules you seems to have Mar 11 16:58:12 by this way it will give on app for music, video and photo Mar 11 16:58:54 captainigloo: nice project! I googled it after seeing it in your elfe videos Mar 11 16:59:11 dcordes: thanks :) Mar 11 17:01:39 [Rui]: develop in what regard? as I said, I think it's pretty complete on the application level Mar 11 17:02:17 antrik: qtmoko ? Mar 11 17:02:23 dcordes: yes Mar 11 17:02:55 never herad of that Mar 11 17:02:58 captainigloo: I'm thinking more about the core phone apps than any multimedia or other additional smartphone features... Mar 11 17:02:59 * dcordes checking Mar 11 17:03:12 <[Rui]> antrik: it's not really easy to say, it just felt extremely limited Mar 11 17:03:18 though of course that's part of it as well Mar 11 17:03:38 <[Rui]> captainigloo: can you take a look at my draft GUI guide? Mar 11 17:03:46 <[Rui]> captainigloo: maybe even extend it? :) Mar 11 17:03:47 [Rui]: i already did Mar 11 17:03:51 ;) Mar 11 17:03:57 <[Rui]> captainigloo: ah, cool, what did you think? Mar 11 17:04:18 [Rui]: i find it good, simple Mar 11 17:04:24 and clear Mar 11 17:04:29 <[Rui]> there's more to add of course, I'm not an expert in the field, most of it are insights I gained developing elmdentica and what I see on android that I like Mar 11 17:04:42 <[Rui]> the keyboard thing has to be moved to e-devel though Mar 11 17:05:15 <[Rui]> I'll probably tackle it with devilhorns Mar 11 17:05:15 [Rui]: yes the more upstream it is the best it is Mar 11 17:05:24 [Rui]: well, perhaps we have different expectations, because I do not really look for much more than a working phone. and qtmoko seems pretty complete in this regard... Mar 11 17:05:35 <[Rui]> antrik: ok, that might explain it Mar 11 17:06:04 <[Rui]> antrik: another thing that might explain why I feel it limited is that even gta02 is a lot more powerfull than my first computer, which was an Apple Macintosh LC II Mar 11 17:06:12 <[Rui]> 2 MB RAM, 40 MB disk Mar 11 17:06:19 <[Rui]> 16Mhz Mar 11 17:07:23 in my point of view what is really missing is a good Elementary theme Mar 11 17:07:59 <[Rui]> so... when speak of smartphones, we're actually speaking of dumb computers. Mar 11 17:08:54 captainigloo: I also think there must be a unified look Mar 11 17:09:33 <[Rui]> captainigloo: the current gry theme is not bad Mar 11 17:09:37 yeah, the default theme is pretty ugly IMHO... haven't checked the other available ones though Mar 11 17:09:42 <[Rui]> has a few rough edges but... Mar 11 17:10:06 <[Rui]> one thing a theme designer should be forced to do: try the theme on a day of good sunlight Mar 11 17:10:10 we could consider adding theming to non e17 programs Mar 11 17:10:11 [Rui]: well, it's better than the default QtMoko theme... but I wouldn't exactly call it pretty :-) Mar 11 17:10:15 that are shipped Mar 11 17:10:34 <[Rui]> there were prettier themes (like the blue one from dos1) but I can't use it under the portuguese sun :) Mar 11 17:10:39 <[Rui]> very hard to use Mar 11 17:10:44 <[Rui]> or view Mar 11 17:11:11 <[Rui]> they should also be light enough as I'm not expecting decent graphic support in the near time with free software Mar 11 17:11:26 <[Rui]> ok, time for baby cereals, brb Mar 11 17:17:00 [Rui]: i really don't like it Mar 11 17:25:04 captainigloo: the current SHR theme ? Mar 11 17:25:32 captainigloo: a friend asked me why the buttons are 'split' - he didn't really get the reflection thing right Mar 11 17:33:01 dcordes: yes i find that this reflection is too much Mar 11 17:54:19 <[Rui]> dcordes: captainigloo: me too, I'd prefer a plain color. Mar 11 17:54:19 <[Rui]> or outline Mar 11 17:54:19 <[Rui]> problem is speed of rendering Mar 11 17:54:20 <[Rui]> onde of the things the theme was made was to be faster Mar 11 19:15:39 captainigloo: ya it seems optically overloaded Mar 11 19:16:35 ok Mar 11 19:57:16 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * r8918c1ea475b 10/fsoaudiod/src/plugins/router_alsa/plugin.vala: fsoaudiod: router_alsa: set scenario on mode or device changing Mar 11 19:57:18 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * r9fe1815b274c 10/fsoaudiod/conf/default/ (Makefile.am alsa.conf): fsoaudiod: add default configuration file for alsa router Mar 11 19:57:19 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * r2e543185e6a7 10/fsoaudiod/conf/palm_pre/Makefile.am: fsoaudiod: palmpre configuration: add compat names for config directory Mar 11 19:57:22 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * rf80c646a43d3 10/fsogsmd/src/plugins/modem_qualcomm_palm/ (mediators_network.vala unsolicited.vala): fsogsmd: modem_qualcomm_palm: try to handle modem power off correctly Mar 11 19:57:25 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * rf1d22dce2375 10/fsoaudiod/ (conf/default/fsoaudiod.conf src/plugins/manager/plugin.vala): fsoaudiod: each mode now has it's own current device; make default devices configurable Mar 11 19:57:27 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * r746cddc7c2b0 10/fsodeviced/ (4 files in 2 dirs): Mar 11 19:57:27 freesmartphone.org: fsodeviced: router_palmpre: is deprecated by new fsoaudio daemon Mar 11 19:57:27 freesmartphone.org: Signed-off-by: Simon Busch Mar 11 20:23:21 [Rui]: to be honest, I doubt the number of colors used in a button really affects the rendering speed... Mar 11 20:31:16 <[Rui]> antrik: depends on how they're done Mar 11 20:31:31 <[Rui]> antrik: and how much information needs to pass from rendeting engine to glamo Mar 11 20:43:08 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * rd222ca24e923 10/libfsobasics/ (fsobasics/utilities.vala tests/testutilities.vala): libfsobasics: add some new enumFromString method Mar 11 20:50:34 mrmoku: ping Mar 11 20:57:22 morphis, hi Mar 11 20:57:30 GNUtoo|laptop: heyho Mar 11 21:01:04 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * r6784b6a0d7cd 10/fsoaudiod/conf/palm_pre/Makefile.am: fsoaudiod: palmpre configuration: install symbolic link with the correct prefix Mar 11 21:05:49 [Rui]: the main problem causing slowness in most drivers is frequently switching between hardware rendering and software fallbacks. probably more so in the FR setup than with desktop GPUs. so the only relevant question really is whether something causes a software fallback... Mar 11 21:07:05 the actual work needed for drawing a button should be neglectible Mar 11 21:08:37 morphis, can I PM you? Mar 11 21:08:44 GNUtoo|laptop: jepp Mar 11 21:16:43 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07cornucopia * r02d1ff374435 10/fsodeviced/conf/palm_pre/Makefile.am: fsodeviced: palmpre configuration: don't install already removed audio.conf Mar 11 21:21:59 <[Rui]> antrik: well, raster has talked extensively about that, basically glamo is crap :| Mar 11 21:32:08 I'm sure it would be good enough with a well optimized driver. but then, properly optimising 2D drivers is an extremely complex problem, which might actually not be feasible without prohibitive amounts of work... Mar 11 21:32:28 <[Rui]> antrik: or docs Mar 11 21:32:38 <[Rui]> antrik: there are no public docs. Mar 11 21:32:46 oh, ouch... didn't know that Mar 11 21:33:19 <[Rui]> antrik: however your surety is shambled by the problem that the tiny bus is shared with the ยต-sd card, cpu, and other devices. Mar 11 21:33:49 <[Rui]> just rotate the screen and see how slowly it redraws, with lots of artifacts Mar 11 21:34:51 well, I heard the FR can actually display fullscreen video at an almost fluent frame rate? so the bus bandwith *can't* be the only problem Mar 11 21:35:04 I guess the problem is rather poor use of the bandwith Mar 11 21:35:22 (which is one of the issues with switching between software fallbacks and hardware rendering -- though not the only one...) Mar 11 21:36:10 antrik: 240x320 theora yes Mar 11 21:42:52 well, I don't remember the exact numbers, but IIRC gena2x measured way above 10 MiB/s, which should easily suffice to draw buttons without any pervievable delay Mar 11 21:43:53 perceivable Mar 11 21:44:33 buttons are drawn quite fast here :) Mar 11 21:45:33 BTW, I didn't ever have the feeling that any slowness of the SHR UI is actually rendering slowness... Mar 11 21:46:04 though this might be misleading, depending on how the screen is updated I guess Mar 11 21:47:28 (I'm not using SHR though) Mar 11 21:51:08 <[Rui]> sorry I didn't want to sound rude, but I was in a hurry to go to the kithen Mar 11 22:19:54 [Rui]: you didn't :-) Mar 11 22:20:27 lindi-: what are you using? I though Debian on FR was using the SHR UI as well?... Mar 11 22:20:28 <[Rui]> ok, I thought I did, in retrospect :) Mar 11 22:20:55 antrik: wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/user:lindi documents my setup Mar 12 01:09:02 night Mar 12 01:09:27 which component of fso is required for mickeyterm to work? Mar 12 01:10:07 I put plenty of "disable=1" into /etc/frameworkd.conf and now mickeyterm fails to start **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 12 02:59:57 2011