**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 08 02:59:58 2011 May 08 06:13:49 nschle85: (gdbus-codegen) shr-u switched to newer glib which includes gdbus-codegen... before it was an extra package May 08 06:13:56 that's why you get that error May 08 08:28:01 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07aurora * r89ff317f6b23 10/aurora/ (4 files in 2 dirs): aurora: new icons for phone and settings app May 08 09:39:39 morphis: hey, I have a problem with the watchdog of the modem class May 08 09:39:46 maybe you can enlighten me :-) May 08 09:40:15 mickeyl: or you if you're around :) May 08 09:43:40 hmm... guess I know why and what... trying something... so nvm for now May 08 09:50:19 mrmoku: whats the problem? May 08 09:51:25 morphis: mickey overrode the createWatchdog to return null May 08 09:51:39 and that segfaults when trying to implement SetFunctionality May 08 09:51:51 guess he did that because lot's of stuff was missing back then May 08 09:58:27 mrmoku: whats when you remove the override? May 08 09:59:03 morphis: yeah, that's what I did May 08 10:04:46 mrmoku: and then it segfaults? May 08 10:05:20 mrmoku: do you know where it segfaults? May 08 10:06:44 morphis: no, then it does not segfault May 08 10:06:47 11:41 < mrmoku> hmm... guess I know why and what... trying something... so nvm for now May 08 10:06:53 was when I found out :-) May 08 10:07:25 does not work either... but that's an isi thing May 08 10:11:47 ok May 08 10:33:31 hi May 08 10:33:50 EFL days were nice.... May 08 10:34:28 basically in order to write an efl program, the programmer must think in edje, and must not use elementary as GTK+ May 08 10:34:49 hi mrmoku morphis May 08 10:34:59 I've 15min of wifi before having to change MAC May 08 10:35:00 GNUtoo|laptop: heyho May 08 10:35:14 GNUtoo|laptop: Slyon got his Pre 2 device May 08 10:35:37 GNUtoo|laptop: is there some materal about the EFL days? May 08 10:35:55 yes, in french unfotunately May 08 10:36:02 but they are very well done May 08 10:36:04 by captainigloo May 08 10:36:18 it's a pdf tutorial and edje examples May 08 10:36:31 I also talked about freedom with someone May 08 10:36:43 that prevented me to try the examples May 08 10:36:45 I'll try them May 08 10:36:50 maybe now maybe at home May 08 10:39:38 http://svn.enlightenment.org/svn/e/trunk/DOCS/tutorials/fr/edje/ May 08 10:41:16 GNUtoo|laptop: ok May 08 10:41:25 5 min left May 08 10:41:49 GNUtoo|laptop: Slyon got his Pre 2 device May 08 10:42:25 yes I eared May 08 10:42:27 it's nice May 08 10:42:43 I hope ours will receive too May 08 10:42:46 in the next days May 08 10:42:49 what's his field of expertise? May 08 10:42:55 ok nice May 08 10:43:04 captainigloo, is unsure about accepting the pre May 08 10:43:24 so maybe I'll end up doing some system work for it, maybe not May 08 10:43:43 maybe not means captainigloo will have the device May 08 10:45:20 why is he unsure? May 08 10:45:24 1 min May 08 10:45:28 I'll try to be back May 08 10:45:30 time May 08 10:45:36 and because I can do low level work May 08 10:45:42 he doesn't have much time May 08 10:45:46 and alsa may come to his device May 08 10:46:43 ok May 08 10:50:19 back for another 15min May 08 10:52:13 morphis, ^^^ May 08 10:53:20 alsa will come to his htc device? who will do this? May 08 10:53:25 cotulla May 08 10:53:31 so you would be able to do low level work for the palm pre? May 08 10:53:34 cotulla? May 08 10:53:38 don't know him May 08 10:53:39 someone in #htc-linux May 08 10:53:44 ah ok May 08 10:54:25 in fact last time I talked to him, the driver was already written but not published nor tested yet May 08 10:54:32 ok, sounds good May 08 10:54:42 I hope he'll pubilsh it soon May 08 10:54:54 he should even if it's not finished May 08 10:55:09 indeed May 08 10:55:35 if you get the pre2 and have time for some lowlevel work I want you to look for stable wifi and bluetooth May 08 10:56:08 anyway, I am not so enthusiastic anymore about qualcomm soc, according to some docs I saw, the baseband has access to the application CPU's memory May 08 10:56:18 I must verify that tough May 08 10:56:47 yes I want to fix wifi at the kernel level by importing patches or using a more recent compat wireless May 08 10:56:57 mainline is much better with reguard to libertas May 08 10:57:06 *lastest mainline May 08 10:57:30 jepp May 08 10:57:40 maybe we can get a more recent kernel running on the Pre May 08 10:57:50 that would be nice May 08 10:57:58 but is a lot of work May 08 10:58:06 even we need newer bits for bluetooth May 08 10:58:23 as palm does everything in userspace without using the kernel for it May 08 10:58:43 I didn't mean that May 08 10:58:45 and bluetooth support in the current kernel seems not to be usable (it does not compiling) May 08 10:58:57 I measn seal some libertas mainline patches May 08 10:59:01 or cherry-pick rather May 08 10:59:03 or this way May 08 10:59:16 but we need this for bluetooth too May 08 10:59:56 yes bluetooth is needed(I've a wireless keyboard and a wireless mouse) May 08 11:00:16 btw what's sylon area of expertise? May 08 11:00:32 4 min before next mac address change May 08 11:01:49 I think I'm off with the n900, since it's on a good way now May 08 11:02:00 Slyon wants to work on SMS support in msmcomm May 08 11:02:00 I've just to wait for meego for the kenrel May 08 11:02:08 I tought sms worked May 08 11:02:29 and wait for mrmoku and mickeyl for telefony and sound, respectively May 08 11:02:35 (sound in calls) May 08 11:02:58 telephony means full modem support May 08 11:03:05 bbl May 08 11:18:52 moo folks May 08 11:42:32 morphis: i wanted something, but i forgot May 08 11:42:37 *shrug* May 08 11:42:45 moin, btw. May 08 11:43:44 mrmoku: right now the watchdog is AT specific, which is bad. I want to rewrite it to only use mediators and then we can use it / SetFunctionality from every modem without adaptation May 08 11:44:12 hmm, i see sound in gnutoo's responsibility :D May 08 11:45:46 morphis: the icon theme rocks, so, yes, lets use it May 08 11:48:56 yo mickeyl May 08 11:49:00 how's life? May 08 11:49:17 good. waiting in anticipation for the baby to come. could be any day now May 08 11:49:25 yay May 08 11:52:59 other than that, i'm quite excited to work with morphis on aurora May 08 11:53:21 doing some work above middleware feels good May 08 11:53:57 what's aurora? May 08 11:54:46 a featurephone client May 08 11:54:51 aah May 08 11:54:56 nice May 08 11:55:12 if you need some usability lab... ;-D May 08 11:55:21 we want just the bare necessities, but those in a state that is really suitable for day2day May 08 11:56:29 I think I'm rather decent at specifying UI May 08 11:56:39 rather evaluating May 08 11:59:37 btw what becamo of paroli? May 08 12:00:39 i think it got abandoned. pity, it had some good ideas May 08 12:00:55 the pyneo folks tried to take it over, but apparantly lost interest as well May 08 12:01:03 indeed, and a similar concept aiui May 08 12:01:06 *nod* May 08 12:09:32 mickeyl: icon theme: ok, I discoverd the will be some more icons by the same dev in the next time: http://ipapun.deviantart.com/#/d2o0spa May 08 12:09:38 so it seems like a good start May 08 12:10:00 mickeyl: but ping if you know what you want from me :) May 08 12:10:09 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07aurora * r4df5c46b9b22 10/aurora/aurora/ (4 files in 2 dirs): aurora: run reindet May 08 12:10:40 ok May 08 12:12:18 mickeyl: do you already looked at the architecture of aurora? May 08 12:12:37 something I don't like at the current situation is, that it is not runable from the dev directory ... May 08 12:14:55 why not? May 08 12:15:38 there is not general problem with it, it's just not working atm :) May 08 12:15:46 so it's something we need to improve May 08 12:15:46 ok May 08 12:15:48 right May 08 12:16:04 but about the rest, do you like it? May 08 12:17:09 i didn't look enough yet to feel entitled to comment :) May 08 12:17:16 ok May 08 12:17:31 but say if you are not fine with something so we can change it very early in development May 08 12:17:40 mickeyl: tell the baby to hurry - 9th of May is an excellent date for birthday ;-D May 08 12:17:41 but how do we want to organize the further work on aurora? May 08 12:17:55 tomorrow :) May 08 12:17:56 DocScrutinizer: hehe, will do May 08 12:18:04 day after tomorrow ... May 08 12:18:41 morphis: i need to settle on a reference device soon. It's either going to be the rokr or the n900. then we can start splitting up the UI work May 08 12:18:52 ok May 08 12:19:01 why not the palm pre? May 08 12:19:07 because you are working on it May 08 12:19:11 ok :) May 08 12:19:16 it's better for aurora if we have two different devices May 08 12:19:17 IMO May 08 12:19:19 mickeyl: weren't you a may-cat as well? May 08 12:19:29 DocScrutinizer: not at all, i'm 26th of December :) May 08 12:19:33 ooh May 08 12:19:57 mickeyl: two devices to support is better than one, but is telephony already working on the n900? May 08 12:20:10 morphis: no, that's why i'm leaning towards the rokr May 08 12:20:17 ok May 08 12:20:18 although the rokr is really a different beast May 08 12:20:25 (with the lack of TS) May 08 12:21:14 darn, thought audio/telephony on N900 was only days away now? May 08 12:21:28 in theory yes May 08 12:21:31 in practice, who knows May 08 12:21:40 as usual :-D May 08 12:21:44 it might be just a couple of lines to do the remaining alsa stuff May 08 12:21:50 but i don't enjoy working w/ the 900 these days May 08 12:21:55 that's why i'd like someone else to do it May 08 12:22:05 gnutoo is somewhat reluctant though :) May 08 12:22:10 and mrmoku is still busy with 3g May 08 12:22:17 (which should be there any day now as well) May 08 12:22:31 you're severely short on manpower :-S May 08 12:23:13 indeed May 08 12:23:22 it's crazy to attempt it with 2.5 people May 08 12:23:50 yup May 08 12:24:22 2.5 people for the n900? May 08 12:24:32 almost feels like the notorious 90% syndrome May 08 12:24:34 but spending weeks to advocate anyone to trade their semiworking environment against something that doesn't work at all yet sounds not too fruitfull as well May 08 12:24:34 it's more than for the palmpre ... May 08 12:24:45 morphis: true, but you're worth 10 guys May 08 12:24:47 :D May 08 12:24:57 :D May 08 12:25:24 you right, it's better to target aurora to more than one device May 08 12:25:33 but maybe we should do that after the first release May 08 12:25:55 as you said the rokr is just another beast May 08 12:26:05 n900 is not ready (or need some time) May 08 12:26:12 finish the interesting challenging first 90%, abandon project then as the remaining 10% are not yielding any new exciting things to learn May 08 12:26:15 palmpre is ready (for telephony and 3G) May 08 12:27:15 DocScrutinizer: yeah... we could very well need some of the 4000 devs nokia will kick ;) May 08 12:27:23 lol May 08 12:27:29 get funding May 08 12:28:50 morphis: yes, the pre might be a better choice for me at this particular time May 08 12:28:59 although it's always cumbersome to reflash the rootfs May 08 12:29:10 but perhaps this is no longer necessary that often May 08 12:31:06 jepp May 08 12:31:12 you can even work with NFS May 08 12:31:39 and if we integrate network we can even update the rootfs via opkg May 08 12:32:13 I like it to have support for more than one device but we are two people and we will have a lot of problems May 08 12:32:32 let's try to solve them first for only one device and then integrate the n900 in the second release May 08 12:34:02 hmm, yeha May 08 12:34:14 while I will do the sidekick on N900 call audio May 08 12:34:40 but we should always have other devices in our mind when doing things for aurora May 08 12:34:51 at least for sharing all the lil bit I know about that critter May 08 12:35:43 and I'm more than happy to serve for a sparring partner for aurora design May 08 12:36:44 after all that's one of my favourites May 08 12:37:47 even Qt designers could use some sparring with me May 08 12:38:01 *friggin Qt* May 08 12:40:32 (they have no means to definitely SET a checkbox via hotkey :-( ) May 08 12:40:58 you only can *toggle* May 08 12:42:22 even worse: on multipage dialogs with a treeview to select the subpage, there's no way whatsoever to navigate the whole SH*T via hotkeys, unless you use feedback from screen May 08 12:42:57 unbearable e.g. for visually impaired May 08 12:44:42 DocScrutinizer: have you asked how visually impaired actually use it? May 08 12:45:10 no, but I always try to use things with closed eyes May 08 12:45:13 DocScrutinizer: at akademy2010 there was a presentation on simon, a speech recognition integration to kde May 08 12:45:51 speech recognition is another topic, but also suffers from this design flaw May 08 12:46:18 DocScrutinizer: sure but they might exercise the api that makes it possible to set boxes May 08 12:47:25 lindi-: it's friggin simple to have a ctrl- for all checkboxes in Qt apps, if you patch the particular app May 08 12:48:36 it's impossible though to integrate blind hotkey (aka macros) - or generic speech input which needs the same - in a general way for e.g KDE May 08 12:48:46 without patching that flaw in Qt May 08 12:49:25 DocScrutinizer: perhaps, I'm not that familiar with Qt May 08 12:50:01 hmm May 08 12:50:23 you got KDE? May 08 12:50:36 not sure how to answer that May 08 12:50:48 you are using KDE desktop? May 08 12:50:54 not often May 08 12:50:59 ok then May 08 12:51:01 but qubes uses it :) May 08 12:51:23 and I use KDE applications May 08 12:51:35 irssi is no kde app May 08 12:51:44 sure May 08 12:52:14 so I have a hard time to give a good example so you can reproduce to see the problem May 08 12:52:25 DocScrutinizer: I can believe the problem May 08 12:52:52 well, kinda OT here anyway May 08 12:53:13 but not for aurora May 08 12:53:15 :-D May 08 12:53:19 what's aurora? May 08 12:53:59 [2011-05-08 13:52:14] what's aurora? May 08 12:54:00 [2011-05-08 13:53:03] a featurephone client May 08 12:54:06 it's irssi mostly since I haven't found a nice way to remotely use X applications over gprs May 08 12:55:48 morphis: mickeyl: don't hesitate to send me any design papers, specs, whatever. I'll share my thoughts, and you're free to ignore or use them as you like May 08 12:57:15 I promise I'll try not to bitch :-D May 08 12:59:02 *nod* May 08 12:59:07 so, need to move for mother's day May 08 12:59:08 bbl May 08 12:59:09 lindi-: somebody told me X apps are best run locally ;-D May 08 13:03:15 DocScrutinizer: yean but people complain if IRC over gprs :) May 08 13:03:33 uh? May 08 13:03:43 DocScrutinizer: frequent disconnects May 08 13:03:55 aaah, use ZNC (or another proxy) May 08 13:04:00 see DocScrutinizer51 May 08 13:04:33 I spammed channels like mad before I had that box and ZNC running on it May 08 13:05:08 DocScrutinizer: is there a proxy that can listen on an unix socket? May 08 13:05:15 a week longer and I probably got kickbanned from this chan May 08 13:05:19 having to allocate tcp ports is irritating May 08 13:05:42 for the reverse, i would say socat :) May 08 13:05:43 errr, I don't know if I can follow May 08 13:06:23 DocScrutinizer: at least with irssiproxy i had to set it to listen for ircnet on 6667, freenode on 6668 and oftc on 6669 May 08 13:06:35 lindi-: you probably need a dedicated port where your IRC client can connect to the server May 08 13:06:44 your server with ZNC May 08 13:07:17 lindi-: afaik that's for far end port, not local May 08 13:09:06 my ZNC on that box is listening to port 44444 for my clients to connect, and ZNC behaves like any usual IRC client and connects to freenode.net:6667 (or was it 6668?) May 08 13:09:14 DocScrutinizer: now when somebody else wants to use irssiproxy on the system he has to start from 6670 May 08 13:09:21 there are no other ports open than 44444 May 08 13:10:00 coordinating these port numbers is horrible :) May 08 13:10:00 DocScrutinizer: I'm using ssh as a transport anyway May 08 13:10:14 DocScrutinizer: since I connect from random wlans :) May 08 13:10:38 lindi-: I guess ZNC isn't meant to run several concurrent instances, as you're not supposed to run more than one IRC client on your handheld, at least behind some broken nats May 08 13:11:23 DocScrutinizer: I have only one client but connected to multiple networks May 08 13:11:27 DocScrutinizer: http://amethyst.openembedded.net/~morphis/aurora-01.jpg May 08 13:11:28 ZNC can use crypted IRC - what's it called? May 08 13:12:47 DocScrutinizer: hmm... znc... I'm using bip and wonder if znc might be superiour? May 08 13:13:10 for some reason I binned bip May 08 13:13:43 I think it had some bugs, esp with playback of buffer May 08 13:13:58 DocScrutinizer: also I'm running irssi on a machine that is firewalled so that I can only access it over ssh :) May 08 13:14:05 while ZNC doesa that automatically May 08 13:15:11 hmm, ok May 08 13:15:58 I never tested that on bip, but ZNC has some issues with CTCP when multiple clients are registered May 08 13:16:59 there's a CTCP plugin for ZNC that makes sure the answer to some CTCP msg goes to the asking client only, but it frequently segfaulted for me May 08 13:18:17 and definitely Konversation and xchat don't play together nicely as concurrent clients on ZNC May 08 13:18:44 one of the reasons there's a DocScrutinizer as well as DocScrutinizer51 May 08 13:19:18 multiple xchats on ZNC seem to work great though May 08 13:23:18 morphis: one remark: direct access to dialer is top priority on a phone May 08 13:24:44 DocScrutinizer: you just have to click the first entry with the phone icon in the list May 08 13:24:52 then the dialer will open May 08 13:24:55 thats the concept May 08 13:24:58 aah, ok May 08 13:25:06 you have so called hubs which show informations about the application behind May 08 13:25:18 the first hub is the phone hub May 08 13:25:21 and what's going to happen with the missed calles then? May 08 13:25:50 it's a information from the hub for the user May 08 13:25:58 you need a button [show missed calls] on dialer then May 08 13:26:02 jepp May 08 13:26:11 fair enough May 08 13:27:06 depending on formfactor, you might reconsider placement of that hub maybe at bottom rather than top May 08 13:27:19 whatever is best place to tap May 08 13:30:21 jepp May 08 13:39:07 morphis: one more suggestion: maybe generally use buttons of slider type, like SHR got them in settings May 08 13:39:41 yeah! May 08 13:39:45 in the hubs May 08 13:39:47 thats nice May 08 13:39:55 touchscreen is rather inconvenient to use, compared to real keys. A slider type button would eliminate accidental clicks pretty much May 08 13:41:05 ok May 08 13:41:06 of course not for the 12key numberpad to dial numbers ;-D May 08 13:41:11 DocScrutinizer: currently it looks like this: http://amethyst.openembedded.net/~morphis/aurora_20110507.1.png May 08 13:41:36 morphis: you should answer you phone from time to time :-P May 08 13:41:40 +r May 08 13:43:31 but then again for sure for the red and green button in dialer May 08 13:44:48 generally all buttons that are either not undoable (like accept/reject call), or are first level in a sense of "here the user starts a new transaction" May 08 13:45:01 should be slider type May 08 13:47:43 obviously you don't want slider type buttons for all user actions that comprise of multiple button presses in one atomic transaction, like entering phonenumbers, text... May 08 13:48:48 backspace could delete last char on tap, and whole text input field on slide May 08 13:49:23 this one should be a slide right-to left button then, for LTR-text May 08 13:50:30 for RTL text locales, the BS button should be left side of screen rather than right, and be a normal LTR slide May 08 13:51:31 I don't think we got a real top-to-bottom text locale? :-D May 08 13:52:57 no May 08 13:55:43 of course you *could* use another paradigm only if you consider to have transitions that slide out the current screen and slide in the next one. Then I'd opt for selecting next screen (aka clicking a hub button) should be a right-to-left swipe, to make e.g dialer slide into screen from right, and obviously the back button on dialer would need a left-to-right swipe May 08 13:57:44 freesmartphone.org: 03morphis 07aurora * rc30689608493 10/aurora/ (31 files in 7 dirs): aurora: more work on the two hubs we have May 08 13:58:26 DocScrutinizer: you mean a swipe over the whole display from right-to-left/left-to-right? May 08 13:58:31 actually Ilove this concept quite a bit May 08 13:58:38 yes May 08 13:58:41 ok May 08 13:58:59 concept currently is when you click on a hub the app comes to the front May 08 13:59:10 (internally it's a layer which will fade in) May 08 13:59:13 usually, unless you got sth like two cols of 'buttons' May 08 13:59:38 the swipe-thing sounds nice if it works without any problems May 08 13:59:46 like touch a button while swiping May 08 13:59:54 s/touch/touching/ May 08 13:59:54 morphis meant: like touching a button while swiping May 08 14:01:08 hmm, usually all buttons are either of the slider type which is immune to accidental such things, or a "normal" button that needs both a mose-down and a mouse-up event inside the hot area May 08 14:01:21 to trigger May 08 14:01:33 ok May 08 14:01:40 will try to implement this May 08 14:01:48 cool :-D May 08 14:04:14 I'd define the triggering conditions for slider button like this: mouse-down-event in one half (right one for a RTL slide button), mouse-up-even in the other half May 08 14:05:11 sounds reasonable May 08 14:05:13 mybe with a small dead separator filed between the two halves May 08 14:05:21 field* May 08 14:06:27 so I am off for today May 08 14:06:28 cya May 08 14:07:28 also the second half for the mouse-up event may have a oversize factor, so the valid area is actually larger (by a programmable factor) than the real icon May 08 14:13:07 mickeyl: hi. is it possible for you to make the latest fso-installer makefile accessible with a wget ? to facilitate the install. May 08 14:25:20 freesmartphone.org: 03mickey 07aurora * r20637bae8a14 10/aurora/bin/aurora: aurora: add -f option for fullscreen & borderless May 08 14:26:40 GarthPS: you mean, other than wget 'http://git.freesmartphone.org/?p=utilities.git;a=blob_plain;f=palmpre/fso-installer/Makefile;hb=HEAD' ? May 08 14:27:25 mickeyl: hmm it does not work actually .. but yes I mean something like that? May 08 14:27:32 s/?/. May 08 14:27:48 * angelox_123 can't understand a bit of qt-python :\ May 08 14:28:24 GarthPS: hmm, works fine for me May 08 14:28:28 what does it do for you? May 08 14:28:38 you have to rename the file probably May 08 14:28:46 but it's the actual Makefile that comes May 08 14:28:48 mickeyl: yeah It works here to but it surprise me because I already tried.. May 08 14:29:20 angelox_123: really? it's the same as Qt/C++, you just have to s/this/self/ and s/->/./ roughly ;) May 08 14:29:40 mickeyl: ok I found why.. missing => ' May 08 14:31:06 mickeyl: Haha..will be hard to remember that everytime :D May 08 14:31:40 you can add -O outpufile to don't have to rename after May 08 14:31:40 just trying to clone it to try make something..but forgot how to clone a project into the git.freesmartphone.org :) May 08 14:34:12 * angelox_123 remembered May 08 15:28:58 hi mickeyl May 08 15:30:11 hi mrmoku May 08 15:35:45 yo May 08 15:36:43 what's new since I went away for the efl day May 08 15:38:26 i learned how to write efl programs the right way May 08 15:38:51 that is to say not using elmentary as gtk May 08 15:39:01 and using edje instead May 08 15:40:19 alsa news? May 08 15:40:42 (alsa libcmtspeech backend) May 08 15:43:15 i prepared everything you need, you can take over from here :) May 08 15:43:25 added the skeleton to fsoaudiod May 08 15:43:42 and started an abstraction for a pcm device in libfsoaudiod May 08 15:43:47 have a look at the commits May 08 15:44:06 now the remaining stuff is "just" opening the alsa devices and piping the data from cmt into/out of May 08 15:44:14 but i'll be busy with different things for a while May 08 15:44:40 bbl May 08 15:45:26 ok thanks a lot May 08 15:59:20 hi GNUoo|n900 May 08 16:02:46 * mrmoku off preparing dinner May 08 16:03:50 hi May 08 16:08:37 GNUtoo||laptop: It's easy to write on n900,it have a qwerty keyboard or you write with ts? May 08 16:10:24 or you plug a USB keyboard into it? :) May 08 16:13:48 angelox_123, I can only compare with: May 08 16:13:50 htcdream May 08 16:13:59 freerunner May 08 16:14:04 nexusone May 08 16:14:12 basically the best is the htc dream May 08 16:14:15 then the n900 May 08 16:14:20 and then the openmoko May 08 16:14:23 and then the nexusone May 08 16:14:55 on the n900 Tab is lacking May 08 16:14:58 but ctrl is there May 08 16:15:03 Alt is lacking May 08 16:15:13 | too May 08 16:15:26 so I use a mix of hardware and software keyboard for the console May 08 16:15:32 GNUtoo|laptop: bonjour, bonjour ;-) May 08 16:15:43 GNUtoo|laptop: could not attend the EFL day, sorry May 08 16:15:49 GNUtoo|laptop: maybe next time May 08 16:15:49 and you use the default system or a other one modified ? May 08 16:15:58 hi/bonjour May 08 16:16:05 ok May 08 16:16:14