**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 12 02:59:56 2012 Feb 12 09:55:33 'ello Feb 12 10:49:59 mrmoku: when here please hilight :-) Feb 12 11:01:26 wow 3.1 works better than 3.2 with reguard to sound....on om-gta02 Feb 12 11:02:22 Ainulindale, hi talk to JaMa|Off or me instead Feb 12 11:02:37 Ainulindale, I think mrmoku is very busy nowadays Feb 12 11:02:50 Well it's a stupid request Feb 12 11:02:59 ok Feb 12 11:03:00 I'm still receiving new inscriptions on trac Feb 12 11:03:05 Hence the spam users Feb 12 11:03:07 It's annoying Feb 12 11:03:10 ok Feb 12 11:03:14 Could you please change that? :-) Feb 12 11:03:20 (I don't have access anymore it seems) Feb 12 11:03:23 how do I change that? Feb 12 11:03:32 Well it's somewhere in the admin panel Feb 12 11:03:38 But I don't know where :-) Feb 12 11:03:44 ah ok Feb 12 11:05:11 I don't have admin.... Feb 12 11:55:33 heyho Feb 12 11:55:38 hi Feb 12 11:59:04 I wonder what road to take between: Feb 12 11:59:30 * fixing recent kernel and working with upstream for alsa and some bugfixes Feb 12 11:59:37 * fixing 2.6.39 Feb 12 11:59:46 * using 3.1 which somehow works and fixing it Feb 12 11:59:52 that's for om-gta02 Feb 12 12:00:19 it's easier to ask upstream how to fix Feb 12 12:00:32 and they will only respond if you have lastest kernel Feb 12 12:00:46 * GNUtoo tries linux next right now Feb 12 12:01:35 * pabs3 suggests getting fixes into 3.3/3.4 then backporting anything needed Feb 12 12:01:43 ok Feb 12 12:03:29 ohhh Feb 12 12:03:34 sound works with linux-next Feb 12 12:03:45 ah no Feb 12 12:03:47 it was 3.1 Feb 12 12:05:43 why does it keep saying 3.1+ Feb 12 12:06:41 maybe it didn't compile Feb 12 12:06:56 yes it didn't Feb 12 12:07:04 regulator stuff Feb 12 12:10:42 SHR: 03morphis 07meta-smartphone * r21cf0a18c5ec 10/meta-fso/recipes-freesmartphone/freesmartphone/cornucopia.inc: meta-fso: cornucopia: add variable FSO_CORNUCOPIA_BRANCH to choose branch to build from Feb 12 12:10:48 JaMa|Off: ping Feb 12 12:12:01 JaMa|Off: you are fine with this: http://pastie.org/3366644 Feb 12 12:16:25 morphis, what's the goal of that? Feb 12 12:24:21 GNUtoo: building relevant FSO components for SHR not anymore from master branch Feb 12 12:24:29 as master is development Feb 12 12:24:40 and development is not suited for stabilizing SHR Feb 12 12:25:02 so we will use a shr branch for cornucopia in the future Feb 12 12:27:56 ok Feb 12 12:28:24 so using fixed revisions is not enough? Feb 12 12:39:53 GNUtoo: no Feb 12 12:40:07 GNUtoo: as fixed versions could mean that other commits which causes bugs are included Feb 12 12:40:15 GNUtoo: shr branch can diverge from master Feb 12 12:40:22 but should merged with master from time to time Feb 12 12:40:36 otherwise we can't get a stable verion of FSO in SHR Feb 12 12:41:00 as you know how much trouble we had which changes in master which causes bugs we already though were fixed Feb 12 13:03:21 lindi-: (sorry for OT) are you using any one-time-passwords for ssh solution? Opie was nice but now it's not in Debian anymore... Feb 12 13:04:16 and the one integrated in ssh is not secure Feb 12 13:06:16 Also it was nice i could use my FR to generate the password whenever i needed it. Feb 12 14:50:41 PaulFertser: opie was removed from debian? Feb 12 14:51:13 PaulFertser: interesting, didn't notice that. I do use it daily Feb 12 14:51:13 and twinkle will be removed from debian too....too bad Feb 12 14:52:40 morphis, do you kow AT well btw? Feb 12 14:53:07 Feb 12 14:53:40 well means capable of solving a big problem in gta02 modems where I've stuff like that: Feb 12 14:53:43 PaulFertser: so yes, I'd be interested in seeing some other one-time password solution Feb 12 14:53:57 s-key isn't secure unfortunately Feb 12 14:54:06 GNUtoo: depends on what you mean by secure Feb 12 14:54:55 which kind of a problem? Feb 12 14:55:14 morphis, I'll describe how it happens Feb 12 14:55:23 basically I take the plane for another country Feb 12 14:55:32 like for going to fosdem or france or germany Feb 12 14:55:59 before take off I power off the phone Feb 12 14:56:04 after landing I power it on Feb 12 14:56:09 and then it never registers Feb 12 14:56:12 I wait hours Feb 12 14:56:16 I do tons of tricks Feb 12 14:56:19 nothing to do Feb 12 14:56:27 it register only after some hours etc... Feb 12 14:56:42 and I've that in my logs: Feb 12 14:56:44 2012-02-01T14:29:58.927459Z [WARN] fsogsmd : GLib : atparser.vala:302: Invalid Parser State! Trying to resync... Feb 12 14:57:28 with some no handler for Feb 12 14:57:33 and such things Feb 12 14:57:35 sounds like the parer was interrupted somehow Feb 12 14:57:44 ah? Feb 12 14:58:02 GNUtoo: can you open a bug report for that and describe everything in detail there Feb 12 14:58:09 and attach the relevant log files? Feb 12 14:58:24 how can I be sure the log file doesn't leak private details? Feb 12 14:59:00 GNUtoo: you have to look at each line Feb 12 14:59:09 or just put in the relevant lines there for now Feb 12 14:59:19 it's a log in DEBUG mode? Feb 12 15:00:00 ok there is no problem pasting it Feb 12 15:00:03 there is only 1 number Feb 12 15:00:06 not all the numbers Feb 12 15:00:22 I send to fso trac? Feb 12 15:00:30 yes, please Feb 12 15:00:56 to use the freerunner reliabily that bug + suspend need to be fixed Feb 12 15:02:03 should we fix glamo bugs too? Feb 12 15:02:26 or can we just tell the user to install on NAND with jffs2? Feb 12 15:02:31 s/jffs2/ubifs/ Feb 12 15:02:59 puuh Feb 12 15:03:07 don't know Feb 12 15:03:27 see, that's why I really wondered if I should spend time on gta02 or gta04 Feb 12 15:04:25 the ideal would be that mrmoku would work on gta04 Feb 12 15:04:28 but he's not there Feb 12 15:18:03 morphis, http://trac.freesmartphone.org/attachment/ticket/663/fsogsmd.log.final Feb 12 15:23:47 JaMa|Off, hi Feb 12 15:24:43 GNUtoo: thanks a lot Feb 12 15:25:06 thanks a lot for looking at it Feb 12 15:25:15 because I need my phone the most when I travel Feb 12 15:25:29 and If I can't use it while I travell it's really really problematic Feb 12 15:25:45 I mean last time somebody was expecting me at the airport Feb 12 15:25:51 and none of my phone worked Feb 12 15:26:02 the replicant phone had problems registering too Feb 12 15:26:38 and that person was kind of in a hurry Feb 12 15:27:05 hopefully the person found me without a phone Feb 12 15:28:57 maybe I've this issue since more than one year Feb 12 15:29:14 the problem was that mickeyl is not disponible anymore Feb 12 15:29:19 so he says he will fix Feb 12 15:29:24 and I belive him Feb 12 15:29:33 but each time I pinged him nothing happened Feb 12 15:30:35 hm Feb 12 15:30:54 so I think we should workarround this mickeyl problem Feb 12 15:31:04 and declare you the new head dev of fso Feb 12 15:31:11 s/head/lead Feb 12 15:31:48 so instead of report to mickeyl, mabe report to fso-userland Feb 12 15:31:51 or to morphis Feb 12 15:32:29 GNUtoo: no don't declare me as head of FSO Feb 12 15:32:35 it's still mickeyl Feb 12 15:32:39 ah ok Feb 12 15:32:44 but mickeyl is busy with private life problems and his wor Feb 12 15:32:48 I am too Feb 12 15:33:01 but you're way more active than mickeyl Feb 12 15:33:10 yes Feb 12 15:33:13 I think last mickeyl commit was at FSOSHRCON Feb 12 15:33:23 but let's take the general way Feb 12 15:33:26 report a bug Feb 12 15:33:28 ok Feb 12 15:33:32 and discuss on fso-userland Feb 12 15:33:42 but I wasn't aware that you were willing to fix theses kinds of bugs Feb 12 15:33:48 I am working on getting the FSO-bug-situation a bit better than before Feb 12 15:33:52 so I was deadlocking waiting for mickeyl Feb 12 15:34:00 GNUtoo: there is a general problem Feb 12 15:34:11 you have another aim as for example me and mickeyl Feb 12 15:34:19 we're using other phones for our day-work Feb 12 15:34:24 indeed Feb 12 15:34:25 which are just working Feb 12 15:34:46 and you are using the GTA02 and theses phones as your primary phone Feb 12 15:34:49 I want whatever phone that is free enough to use daily Feb 12 15:34:56 so our focus is a little bit different Feb 12 15:35:01 not only primary but only phone Feb 12 15:35:09 I don't carry another phone with me Feb 12 15:35:14 ok Feb 12 15:35:28 apart when I need to show some other phone like for fosdem Feb 12 15:35:44 about your problem: I can take a look at the problem but I don't think I can fix it today or tomorrow Feb 12 15:35:47 that can take time Feb 12 15:35:47 all my phones are fso/shr/replicant phones anyway Feb 12 15:36:02 just fix it before I take another plane then :) Feb 12 15:36:15 I will take a look into it Feb 12 15:36:22 ok thanks a lot Feb 12 15:36:26 but it's not a blocker Feb 12 15:36:29 ok Feb 12 15:36:32 for me it is Feb 12 15:36:37 maybe not for you tough Feb 12 15:36:49 or maybe I don't understand the word blocker Feb 12 15:37:01 what does blocker means *exactly* Feb 12 15:37:08 because I get the general sense Feb 12 15:37:15 but maybe not the exact meaning Feb 12 15:37:46 blocker means that it is a blocker for a major group of people using the software Feb 12 15:37:52 but currently it's only you Feb 12 15:38:16 maybe I'm the only one that reported it? Feb 12 15:38:31 or maybe I'm the only one who uses it as daily phone Feb 12 15:38:35 and for talking planes Feb 12 15:39:09 I fear that because of the instability we lost nearly all our users Feb 12 15:39:44 and I fear that apart me some users are still on old versions of SHR Feb 12 15:39:54 like shr-unstable with 2.6.34 Feb 12 15:40:08 or some don't use SHR but debian + old fso1 (python) Feb 12 15:40:27 we need to gain theses users back with a release Feb 12 15:40:42 GNUtoo: it's important for me to improve the current situation and get FSO stable again Feb 12 15:40:48 ok Feb 12 15:40:55 but I need to focus my work to get that done Feb 12 15:41:00 so I am currently doing testing stuff Feb 12 15:41:10 ok Feb 12 15:41:13 so we have automatic tests to get a overview of our software quality everyday Feb 12 15:41:20 ok nice Feb 12 15:41:28 and can implement tests for this really easily Feb 12 15:41:33 but that needs time Feb 12 15:41:36 it's for the future Feb 12 15:41:56 I already gave up the dream I have a usable in my hands with FSO tomorrow Feb 12 15:42:14 (even hard core fsf people don't use freerunner anymore, they use replicant nowadays) Feb 12 15:42:36 the point now is how to get that usable phone fast Feb 12 15:42:42 there are 3 ways: Feb 12 15:42:52 * gta02 + 2.6.39 Feb 12 15:42:59 * gta02 + linux-next Feb 12 15:43:01 * gta04 Feb 12 15:43:47 and I can't see well what's the cost of each path Feb 12 15:43:58 GNUtoo: I don't want to talk about this hardware/software combinations anymore how to get this Feb 12 15:44:22 I am concentrating on FSO and only FSO Feb 12 15:44:27 GNUtoo: use 2.6.34, that works Feb 12 15:44:28 getting the core stable Feb 12 15:44:47 what users like SHR will do then thats up to the project Feb 12 15:45:02 I will collect bugs, try to fix them Feb 12 15:45:04 make releases Feb 12 15:45:07 but nothing more Feb 12 15:45:18 primary core will be a AT command based modem Feb 12 15:45:40 that does not mean I will stop develop the Nexus S modem plugin Feb 12 15:45:46 lindi-, I'd like to but I've to talk to JaMa|Off which is off Feb 12 15:45:58 GNUtoo: but I don't have the time to do more Feb 12 15:46:14 it's only a part of my life and not my life Feb 12 15:46:28 ok Feb 12 15:46:33 it's nice that stuff get done Feb 12 15:46:34 so I need to get working on smaller parts Feb 12 15:46:37 and get them done Feb 12 15:46:39 I think you work a lot on fso Feb 12 15:46:54 JaMa also does a lot of work on SHR Feb 12 15:47:26 and as long as nobody really steps up to lead the SHR project I don't think there will be anything more than we already have Feb 12 15:47:38 it's just a few people with the same dream Feb 12 15:47:49 what do you mean? Feb 12 15:48:12 what does leading means in your eyes? Feb 12 15:48:57 don't know Feb 12 15:51:57 I have to leae Feb 12 15:51:58 bye Feb 12 15:52:04 bye Feb 12 16:07:54 lindi-, so 2.6.34 can suspend and has no alsa issues? Feb 12 16:25:21 GNUtoo: no alsa issues? I don't think anybody can guarantee that Feb 12 16:25:50 GNUtoo: but the suspend issue is at least not at all as bad as with 2.6.39 Feb 12 16:25:54 ok Feb 12 16:26:01 so it always resume on .34 Feb 12 16:26:06 no Feb 12 16:26:11 ouch Feb 12 16:26:18 so we don't have 1 usable kenrel Feb 12 16:26:23 since 2.6.29 there have been some resume issues Feb 12 16:26:34 it's been in the bug tracker all the time Feb 12 16:26:43 but 2.6.29 don't have devtmpfs Feb 12 16:27:30 I'm lost then Feb 12 16:27:35 I don't know what to do anymore Feb 12 16:27:39 I want a working phone Feb 12 16:27:46 what's the shortest path to it? Feb 12 16:27:59 * gta02 + 2.6.34 + fixing it Feb 12 16:28:03 * gta02 + 2.6.39 + fixing it Feb 12 16:28:15 * gta02 + 3.2 or linux-next + fixing it Feb 12 16:28:23 * gta04 Feb 12 16:29:11 GNUtoo: use 2.6.34, develop 2.6.39 Feb 12 16:29:38 but 2.6.34 is not perfect Feb 12 16:29:45 GNUtoo: nothing is perfect Feb 12 16:29:49 I could miss calls etc... Feb 12 16:29:59 GNUtoo: however, I've been using 2.6.29/2.6.34 for years daily Feb 12 16:30:01 not perfect means that I've to work on it Feb 12 16:30:13 how was it? Feb 12 16:30:15 resume only fails about once every two months Feb 12 16:30:23 wow Feb 12 16:30:24 GNUtoo: I though you were also using freerunner as a daily phone :/ Feb 12 16:30:36 lindi-, I use it as daily phone Feb 12 16:30:40 but it fails like 1/5 Feb 12 16:30:43 on .39 Feb 12 16:30:48 GNUtoo: yeah, don't use .39 Feb 12 16:30:57 easy :) Feb 12 16:31:07 ok I'll push as hard as I can for getting .34 on SHR Feb 12 16:31:20 GNUtoo: shr doesn't have .34 already? Feb 12 16:31:51 it had long time ago Feb 12 16:31:55 we must re-add it back Feb 12 16:32:00 yes of coures Feb 12 16:32:04 shr uses .39 by default for freerunner Feb 12 16:32:11 blah, that's unusable Feb 12 16:32:16 I know Feb 12 16:32:24 that's why I'm very nervous etc.... Feb 12 16:32:37 yeah, go back to .34 as a daily phone and continu debugging .39 Feb 12 16:32:39 I don't have an usable phone and still I use that unusable phone Feb 12 16:32:47 ok Feb 12 16:33:09 I'll go back to 34 and continue debugging a more recent kernel Feb 12 16:33:22 I'm unsure between 39 and linux-next Feb 12 16:33:40 GNUtoo: why not use replicant on dream/nexus or n900 as a stable phone? Feb 12 16:33:59 Alex[sp3dev], nexus S would be the only possibility Feb 12 16:34:14 n900 isn't stable under SHR: sound quality issues during calls Feb 12 16:34:32 the default OS is out of the question( too much proprietary stuff and in fact I want none) Feb 12 16:35:01 since baseband is non-free on any phone, why would you care about the os? just use it as a phone and don't keep your passwords and data there Feb 12 16:35:42 because on freerunner baseband is kind of isolated Feb 12 16:35:50 no access to the microphone Feb 12 16:35:54 no access to the GPS Feb 12 16:36:01 no access to the main cpu memory Feb 12 16:36:20 beside I want to run nuttx-bb on freerunner baseband Feb 12 16:36:27 and osmocombb on top Feb 12 16:51:40 lindi-: probably the solution would be to import Gentoo's fork of opie into Debian, it's compatible i think. Feb 12 17:33:23 GNUtoo: dude Feb 12 17:33:34 GNUtoo: can you put the name of the person you're quoting at the top of your emails? Feb 12 17:33:54 GNUtoo: it's a fucking nightmare trying to follow threads without it Feb 12 17:35:20 GNUtoo: please Feb 12 17:51:13 rah, more context please? Feb 12 17:51:34 what mails? Feb 12 17:51:40 gta04 ml? Feb 12 17:51:57 the problem is that I use kmail Feb 12 17:52:06 and the reply to feature is broken Feb 12 17:52:12 but evolution is worse Feb 12 17:52:27 I've often to re-do my setup in evolution Feb 12 17:52:31 like several times a day Feb 12 17:58:53 GNUtoo: I use evolution and it seems to manage fine Feb 12 17:59:13 ok Feb 12 18:01:47 GNUtoo: are you saying that when you reply to an email in evolution it includes nothing along the like of "On Sun, 2012-02-12 at 10:33 +0100, xdrudis wrote:" ? Feb 12 18:02:06 no I use kmail Feb 12 18:02:17 because of the evolution bug I just mentioned Feb 12 18:02:21 but kmail has a bug too Feb 12 18:02:25 you select text Feb 12 18:02:44 erm Feb 12 18:02:52 you didn't mention a bug Feb 12 18:02:53 you right click and select reply to [something] Feb 12 18:03:02 and it include no stuff at all Feb 12 18:03:09 it doesn't include the quoted text Feb 12 18:03:27 so what I do is that I copy manually and quote manually Feb 12 18:03:39 so that doesn't include foo wrote: Feb 12 18:03:50 I'm lost Feb 12 18:03:55 why don't you just not select text? Feb 12 18:04:07 and hit reply? Feb 12 18:04:14 then cut down the quoted bits? Feb 12 18:04:17 doesn't work Feb 12 18:04:26 that's the bug Feb 12 18:04:33 it doesn't include the selected text Feb 12 18:04:43 I've a blank mail Feb 12 18:04:53 I should check with kmail devs how to workarround the bug Feb 12 18:05:04 I'm saying: why don't you select nothing and hit reply, so that there is no selected text? Feb 12 18:06:04 bbl Feb 12 18:35:40 * JaMa|Off back Feb 12 18:35:51 GNUtoo: pong Feb 12 18:35:59 JaMa, hi Feb 12 18:36:32 JaMa,1) how soon do we want to make a release Feb 12 18:37:35 asap Feb 12 18:37:53 then we should switch back to 2.6.34 on freerunner Feb 12 18:38:45 I would rather switch to 3.2 imediately after release Feb 12 18:38:47 basically I don't think I can fix the suspend issues soon enough Feb 12 18:39:00 3.2 doesn't work well at all Feb 12 18:39:10 and 2.6.39 doesn't work well with reguard to suspend Feb 12 18:39:25 like 1/5 times it doesn't resume Feb 12 18:40:11 I don't think this issue blocks release Feb 12 18:40:51 really? Feb 12 18:41:06 so you don't expect users to really use the freerunner as their main phone? Feb 12 18:41:07 at least on FSOSHRCON we decided to make release just for release sake.. so I would not invest any more work Feb 12 18:41:25 ah? Feb 12 18:41:37 but then users would try it Feb 12 18:41:48 and we won't match their expectations Feb 12 18:42:56 if we wait with release until we match all expectation then we won't ever release Feb 12 18:43:04 * JaMa is fine without release :) Feb 12 18:45:14 JaMa, that's my point too Feb 12 18:45:20 we go backward to 2.6.34 Feb 12 18:45:24 for the release Feb 12 18:45:30 and we continue developing on 3.2 Feb 12 18:45:33 or something like that Feb 12 18:45:42 so everyone is happy Feb 12 18:45:47 the user is happy because it works Feb 12 18:45:50 and it's reliable Feb 12 18:46:04 the developer doens't do any major effort to make that happen Feb 12 18:46:08 and can continue develop 3.2 Feb 12 18:47:24 or it introduces new issues just before relese.. Feb 12 18:48:51 according to lindi- 2.6.34 works way better Feb 12 18:50:20 but he is not using SHR Feb 12 18:51:09 I am Feb 12 18:51:14 that's the main problem Feb 12 18:51:23 my phone is not reliable at all Feb 12 18:51:26 close to unusable Feb 12 18:51:46 so it can be a problem because I sometimes need it Feb 12 18:54:46 basically my main point is: Feb 12 18:54:50 we make a release Feb 12 18:54:54 users see it and come Feb 12 18:54:59 so they try it Feb 12 18:55:06 then they see it doesn't work well Feb 12 18:55:11 and we loose the users again Feb 12 18:55:30 so if we have a cheap way to make them stay Feb 12 18:55:33 why not trying it? Feb 12 18:57:24 GNUtoo: you are right Feb 12 18:57:40 I think there are some 10 to 50 (just guessing) out there who still use some old shr-testing because it just works Feb 12 18:57:48 indeed Feb 12 18:57:51 making users stay is should not be the purpose of software development Feb 12 18:57:53 I'm still quite busy with other stuff.. so I won't revert any patches doing this downgrade if someone else does that Feb 12 18:57:55 I don't know the number tough Feb 12 18:58:04 JaMa, I want to do it Feb 12 18:58:15 but I was waiting for you beeing ok with it Feb 12 18:59:57 rah_: purpose should be to produce something useable at some point Feb 12 19:00:51 the purpose of developing free software is not to attract a following of people but to make computers do useful things; if other people which to do those things with your software that's wonderful, but allowing the attraction or repulsion of users to dictate choices in software development is a very bad idea Feb 12 19:01:07 s/which/wish/ Feb 12 19:01:13 rah_, what if nobody use the phone because it's unusable? Feb 12 19:01:30 offering two different kernels shouldn't be that difficult Feb 12 19:01:35 GNUtoo: then GNUtoo can't use his phone :-) Feb 12 19:01:38 I'm not for getting the maximum user base either but we should get a minimum user base tough Feb 12 19:02:21 GNUtoo: why should we get a minimum user base? Feb 12 19:03:01 rah_: are you using 2.6.39 on freerunner? Feb 12 19:03:10 lindi-: I don't own a freerunner Feb 12 19:03:29 rah_, at least 1 user should be a resonable goal, and I'm about to throw the towel and quit Feb 12 19:03:37 rah_: that should be easy to fix :) Feb 12 19:03:38 so I think we should fix that Feb 12 19:03:52 lindi-: I do own a GTA01; that has 2.6.37 on it Feb 12 19:04:28 no gta01 experience here Feb 12 19:04:35 no gta01 either Feb 12 19:04:43 GNUtoo: indeed, but then I don't think that's really what's meant by the term "user base" Feb 12 19:04:45 but on gta02 there are suspend issues Feb 12 19:04:51 like 1/5 time it doesn't resume Feb 12 19:05:26 GNUtoo: which is a good thing, of course; "user base" is the kind of phrase used by marketing people in companies that are based on proprietary software Feb 12 19:05:49 rah_: just because they use that phrase does not mean that we can't use it :) Feb 12 19:06:09 indeed it's not like intelectual propery or something that we shouldn't use Feb 12 19:06:59 lindi-: just because they use microsoft software does not mean that we can't use it.. except for the for the details reveals by a finer moral analysis Feb 12 19:07:12 s/for the// Feb 12 19:07:25 rah_: I'm fine with microsoft software if I can share and change it Feb 12 19:07:26 does user base convey bad ideas? Feb 12 19:07:42 intelectual property does Feb 12 19:07:59 it messes 3 laws together and convey the fact that ideas should be owned Feb 12 19:08:02 says stallman yes Feb 12 19:08:12 lindi-: in that case, assuming you're talking about the four freedoms of free software, you cannot be fine with microsoft software Feb 12 19:08:19 but user base is different....it has no such thing.... Feb 12 19:08:31