**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Sep 16 02:59:59 2013 Sep 16 09:35:32 DocScrutinizer05: "No binary blobs are needed to make it usable." Sep 16 09:35:53 DocScrutinizer05: will the Neo900 have a different Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chip? Sep 16 09:35:59 (to the GTA04?) Sep 16 09:55:41 rah: I think there is a difference between binary blob running on the main cpu and a binary firmware blob loaded into a chip Sep 16 09:58:02 and I guess the Neo900 will have the same WiFi/BT chip Sep 16 10:02:52 jake42: the Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chip in the GTA04 needs a binary blob to work Sep 16 10:03:44 jake42: the phrase "binary blob" is used to refer to binary firmware blobs that are loaded into a chip Sep 16 10:04:24 jake42: regardless, DocScrutinizer05 knows whether it's the same Wi-Fi/Bluetooth chip and doesn't need to guess Sep 16 10:04:43 The info I have is that yes the Neo900 will be using the same WiFi/BT chip Sep 16 10:04:53 rah: I think that "binary blob" is referring to a closed kernel module or the like Sep 16 10:05:14 My view is that "binary blob" = closed kernel module or closed userspace bits Sep 16 10:05:53 If the WiFi/BT chip on the GTA04/Neo900 only requires firmware that gets loaded on-chip and doesn't require binary kernel module or binary userspace bits, its already ahead of the N900 on that score Sep 16 10:06:15 does the gta04 have proper wifi-bt cooperation? Sep 16 10:06:32 kerio: not without a binary blob Sep 16 10:06:45 what about with a binary blob Sep 16 10:07:03 because the n900 doesn't, and i can't leave automatic wifi on when i'm listening to music via bluetooth Sep 16 10:07:04 I don't know Sep 16 10:07:11 because the music gets interrupted every time it searches Sep 16 10:07:16 my GTA04 doesn't work Sep 16 10:07:53 rah: what is broken? Sep 16 10:08:28 jake42: nothing is broken; it has a 1GHz CPU which isn't properly supported Sep 16 10:09:02 (by any kernels) Sep 16 10:09:07 no, I tell a lie Sep 16 10:09:33 it's supported by one of the old 2.6 kernels that was installed with Debian on the NAND Sep 16 10:09:44 there are no 3.x kernels that work Sep 16 10:09:59 and all of the phone OSes require a 3.x kernel Sep 16 10:10:04 hence, my phone doesn't work Sep 16 10:10:52 wut Sep 16 10:10:59 so... the gta04 can't be used? Sep 16 10:11:12 not if it has a 1GHz chip, no Sep 16 10:11:27 some of the GTA04s have an 800MHz chip, some have 1GHz Sep 16 10:11:30 kerio: I use my gta04 every day as a phone :P Sep 16 10:11:52 fling: you have an 800MHz chip then, I presume? Sep 16 10:12:03 rah: idk Sep 16 10:12:08 fling: you have an 800MHz chip Sep 16 10:12:15 ok Sep 16 10:12:36 what is 1GHz chip doing? Sep 16 10:12:48 running faster Sep 16 10:12:54 underclock it to 800MHz Sep 16 10:12:55 solved Sep 16 10:13:01 :D Sep 16 10:13:08 oh you are talking abou cpu Sep 16 10:13:27 Is it something wrong with it? Sep 16 10:13:57 there's nothing wrong with the chip Sep 16 10:14:00 well, as far as I know Sep 16 10:14:06 the problem is with the kernel Sep 16 10:14:13 oh! ok Sep 16 10:17:29 about coexistance of WiFi and BT: "Also included in our solution is Wi2Wi's coexistence solution for simultaneous operation of Wi-Fi™ and Bluetooth™ Radios. " Sep 16 10:17:38 from http://wi2wi.com/wireless.php Sep 16 10:18:03 the chip used in GTA04 is called W2CBW003 Sep 16 10:18:10 indeed Sep 16 10:18:24 it is a combined Wi-Fi and Bluetooth packages Sep 16 10:18:30 s/ages/age/ Sep 16 10:18:31 rah meant: it is a combined Wi-Fi and Bluetooth package Sep 16 10:18:35 right Sep 16 10:18:45 (that needs a binary blob to work) Sep 16 10:18:58 binary firmware I would rather call it Sep 16 10:19:29 or a binary blob which needs to be loaded in to the WiFi/BT chip Sep 16 10:19:58 the modem will use a "binary blob" too Sep 16 10:20:17 I know :-/ Sep 16 10:20:21 you just don't have to load it into the modem Sep 16 10:21:52 unfornuatly thats as good as it gets with our non existend influence on manufcaturers Sep 16 10:22:11 s/unfornuatly/unfortunatly Sep 16 10:22:30 there exist Wi-Fi and Bluetooth chips that don't require binary blobs Sep 16 10:22:50 so, actually it does get better Sep 16 10:22:56 rah: which have an opensource firmware? Sep 16 10:23:15 jake42: some broadcom chips have free firmware Sep 16 10:23:25 ok Sep 16 10:23:36 also, some ralink chips either have free firmware or don't require it Sep 16 10:24:07 whatever the ath9k driver supports, as I understand it Sep 16 10:24:20 rah: what does "don't require it" mean? Sep 16 10:24:47 jake42: it means that firmware isn't required.. Sep 16 10:24:58 * rah scratches head Sep 16 10:25:10 rah: so the chip runs without software? Sep 16 10:25:38 jake42: the chip doesn't run software Sep 16 10:26:01 I should clarify that I don't know how the chips work Sep 16 10:26:07 but I'm saying they're 100% free Sep 16 10:26:21 there are only two possibilities for such a situation Sep 16 10:26:27 rah: they most probably have some built in flash Sep 16 10:26:34 either firmware is used but it is free, or no firmware is used Sep 16 10:26:39 from which the load firmware Sep 16 10:26:51 I don't believe that's the case Sep 16 10:27:08 rah: ok Sep 16 10:27:12 if it were flash it would not be certified by the FSF Sep 16 10:27:41 http://www.fsf.org/resources/hw/endorsement/respects-your-freedom Sep 16 10:27:52 "The source code reviewed as part of our certification process for this product includes the open-ath9k-htc-firmware" Sep 16 10:27:57 so, it has free firmware Sep 16 10:28:55 yes Sep 16 10:29:52 the chip on the GTA04 doesn't Sep 16 10:30:13 the problem with a phone is probably finding (and sourcing) a chip which fits at all into the phone Sep 16 10:30:25 rah: which is unfortunate Sep 16 10:31:12 either phone without wifi/bt or one where you have to load some binary firmware Sep 16 10:33:48 I think it would be possible to create a phone that uses free wi-fi and bluetooth chips Sep 16 10:34:14 the GTA04 design was constrained Sep 16 10:35:04 Are there really free wifi/bt chips even anywhere? Sep 16 10:35:28 yes Sep 16 10:35:35 see above Sep 16 10:37:25 I dont really have an issue with chips (WiFi or otherwise) that require firmware downloaded to them on boot, I mostly care if they have binary kernel bits or binary user-space daemons or bits (ala the wl1251-cal tool on the original N900) Sep 16 10:38:35 Ah, yes, indeed, ath9k_htc is nice Sep 16 10:38:43 But not for the embedded purposes. Sep 16 10:38:58 And no bluetooth. Sep 16 10:39:58 PaulFertser: there are a number of embedded systems that use ath9k Sep 16 10:41:49 also the ar9xxx SoCs have Wi-Fi that doesn't require any binary blobs Sep 16 10:43:36 rah: right, but their power consumption is not suitable for a smartphone afaik. Sep 16 10:44:01 rah: of course my home router has one of those ar9xxx SoCs, so yes, I'm aware. Sep 16 10:46:02 if you need pocket heating for upcoming winter, why not :) Sep 16 10:48:43 PaulFertser: I was under the impression that the GTA02 had free Wi-Fi chip Sep 16 10:48:48 PaulFertser: is that not the case? Sep 16 10:51:35 rah: it has fucking firmware on its non-erasable ROM Sep 16 10:52:16 ar6k? Sep 16 10:52:57 yep Sep 16 10:53:03 interesting Sep 16 10:58:20 http://web.archive.org/web/20111103092955/http://projects.goldelico.com/p/gta04-main/page/FirmwareInjector/ Sep 16 11:06:27 actually, no one in the community was really interested in working on firmwareinjector :P Sep 16 11:06:38 I know Sep 16 11:07:05 I prefer loading non-free firmware manually than having it sealed on some ROM Sep 16 11:07:20 mostly thanks to ar6k firmware bugs in Freerunner Sep 16 11:07:28 I prefer using hardware that doesn't require binary blobs Sep 16 11:07:53 I don't care about firmware for peripherals Sep 16 11:08:08 as long as nothing non-free runs on main CPU Sep 16 11:08:14 and nothing has access to its RAM Sep 16 11:08:39 why do you care about non-free software running on the main bit of silicon, but not care about non-free software running on other bits of silicon? Sep 16 11:09:22 I don't really see wifi firmware as a "software" from my PoV Sep 16 11:09:44 it's specialised chipset to do one task Sep 16 11:09:55 I don't care if my washing machine has non-free firmware Sep 16 11:10:35 it would be nice if it would be free, but nothing more than that Sep 16 11:12:08 on my main CPU, where I control what, when and how to run, it's imporant to be able to use it properly without any non-free bits Sep 16 11:12:49 of course that's just my own pov Sep 16 11:13:21 dos1: I agree with that Sep 16 11:13:32 I want no non-free blobs on the main CPU Sep 16 11:13:39 some hardware hackers who want to play really low-level with wifi might have different priorities, and I understand that Sep 16 11:13:40 how can you control what, when and how to run software on the main CPU if that software interfaces with other chips that you have no control over? Sep 16 11:14:28 rah: how can you control wifi, when it interfaces with other wifi devices that you have no control over? Sep 16 11:14:47 and with gsm it's even worse Sep 16 11:15:13 how can you control what, when and how to run software on the main CPU if that software depends on other chips that you have no control over? Sep 16 11:15:53 I have full control over those chips Sep 16 11:16:02 I have documentation for their IO, I can power cycle them properly Sep 16 11:16:07 Unfortunatly, as of right now its not possible to have no non-free bits on the main CPU AND have usable 3D graphics on any of the devices being considered (GTA04, N900, N9, Neo900, others) Sep 16 11:16:29 yup, 3D acceleration situation is sad Sep 16 11:17:06 I am surprised that no-one is interested in reverse engineering PowerVR (the most popular embedded GPU out there) Sep 16 11:17:25 if I had the skills I would have a go at the PowerVR blobs on my N900 Sep 16 11:17:52 if you have full control over those chips while they run non-free software, why do you need free software on the main CPU (which has documentation for its IO, and which you can power cycle properly) in order to have full control over it? Sep 16 11:19:13 rah: because I actually use that CPU for my computing purposes Sep 16 11:19:22 dos1: what do you mean? Sep 16 11:19:40 I don't use AP of WiFi chipset for my computations Sep 16 11:19:58 that doesn't answer my question Sep 16 11:20:18 you were talking about full control Sep 16 11:20:27 now you're talking about doing "computations" Sep 16 11:20:43 which is different Sep 16 11:20:49 computations, that means running my software of choose Sep 16 11:20:55 and even software i write Sep 16 11:21:01 I don't need such ability on wifi chipset Sep 16 11:21:13 it's just a peripheral for me to allow me to use wifi networking Sep 16 11:21:27 CPU is for nothing else, but to run my software Sep 16 11:21:41 wifi chip is not Sep 16 11:22:29 the software that runs on the main CPU is dependent on the software running on peripherals if it makes use of those peripherals; therefore, if you do not have control of the software running on the peripherals, you can never have full control over the software running on the main CPU Sep 16 11:22:57 of course i have full control over the software running on the main CPU Sep 16 11:23:11 I can control it up to each single instruction Sep 16 11:23:16 if I really want to Sep 16 11:23:29 not when it makes a call to the software running on a peripheral Sep 16 11:23:41 you cannot continue to trace that call Sep 16 11:23:49 but it's running on peripheral, so it's not running on main CPU anymore Sep 16 11:23:59 therefore, I have full control of the software running on main CPU Sep 16 11:24:02 what difference does that make? Sep 16 11:24:18 you can't trace it Sep 16 11:24:21 you don't control it Sep 16 11:24:25 your software depends on it Sep 16 11:24:26 I can control when to use that peripheral and how to use it Sep 16 11:24:29 I prefer to control both Sep 16 11:24:37 which data should go to it and which not Sep 16 11:24:45 of course "everything free" would be better Sep 16 11:24:55 but "CPU free but wifi blackbox" is good enough for me Sep 16 11:25:01 why is it OK for a peripheral, but not for a phone? Sep 16 11:25:40 huh?\ Sep 16 11:25:41 why is it OK to control when and how to use a non-free peripheral, but not OK to control when and how to use a non-free phone OS? Sep 16 11:25:55 GMS modem is even more non-free peripheral ;p Sep 16 11:26:07 that's not an answer to my question Sep 16 11:26:36 ah Sep 16 11:26:37 because non-free OS is limiting me way too much than i can accept Sep 16 11:26:37 it can't access your RAM/data Sep 16 11:26:43 I see Sep 16 11:26:48 "good enough" Sep 16 11:26:49 just what you pass to it Sep 16 11:26:53 so it's not OK Sep 16 11:26:57 it's "good enough" Sep 16 11:27:12 it's something that i can accept Sep 16 11:27:51 I can live with some peripherals being black boxes, as long as I have full control over main thing and I know exactly which components are black boxes prior to purchase Sep 16 11:28:43 dos1: are you telling the prospective Neo900 customers which components are black boxes now? Sep 16 11:29:10 taking it to extremes, you can't have fully free PC, because x86 microcodes are non-free Sep 16 11:30:04 rah: neo900 spec is not set in stone yet Sep 16 11:30:41 you can be sure that long before any preorders or crowdfunding begins, everything will be clearly listed somewhere on neo900.org Sep 16 11:30:55 I'll take care of that Sep 16 11:31:26 that sounds like a cop-out Sep 16 11:31:38 the Neo900 is going to be a slightly modified GTA04 Sep 16 11:31:54 there are no intentions to change the Wi-Fi chip Sep 16 11:32:05 the Wi-Fi chip in the GTA04 is a black box Sep 16 11:32:23 for sure if some good, free wifi chipset arrives that's easy to source in low quantities, it will be used for neo900 Sep 16 11:32:38 orly? Sep 16 11:32:53 I can't see why it shouldn't Sep 16 11:33:01 I want it! Sep 16 11:33:03 just out of curiosity, who's designing the Neo900? Sep 16 11:33:19 rah: noone? :P Sep 16 11:34:02 The main thing is that the Neo900 wont require any binary kernel drivers at all and wont require any binary userspace bits for Bluetooth or WiFi Sep 16 11:34:03 DocScrutinizer05 and Nikolaus Sep 16 11:37:34 The stupid user-space binaries for the bluetooth and WiFi on the N900 are annoying Sep 16 11:45:25 rah: so by FSF standards it's free. But in fact it's less free than e.g. ar9170 which had non-free fw initially but then it was freed and the end result (carl9170) was really cool. Sep 16 11:45:37 PaulFertser: indeed Sep 16 11:46:09 RMS told me "you have to draw a line somewhere and I draw it there", well, he's right in his logic. Sep 16 11:46:23 But I'm not a free software icon so I do not need to do that. Sep 16 11:46:45 PaulFertser: http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2011-September/000323.html Sep 16 11:46:46 I think loadable non-free firmware is better than the same firmware stored in ROM. Sep 16 11:47:19 also http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2011-September/000333.html Sep 16 11:48:27 rah: yes, and ar6k is not better just because it stores the same firmware in ROM. It's better just because RMS is able to draw the line between hardware and software. Sep 16 11:48:47 PaulFertser: I'm not arguing to make use of ar6k Sep 16 11:49:25 What other low-power hardware solutions are there? Sep 16 11:49:30 I don't know Sep 16 11:49:31 (that have firmware in ROM) Sep 16 11:49:38 I'm afraid they do not exist... Sep 16 11:49:44 I fear this also Sep 16 11:50:12 But otoh I think those possible candidates are worse than hardware that has no ROM. Sep 16 12:13:37 Hrrm any body have any opnitions on chooseing bluetooth keybaord for qtmoko? logitech K810 any good ? reasonable key touch? ;-) Sep 16 12:13:46 (and SHR, if that works with bluetooth, too) Sep 16 12:13:59 ... or can you only use USB host I wonder Sep 16 12:33:38 dos1: please do yourself a favour and put rah on your ignore list Sep 16 12:35:16 PaulFertser: ((better than the same firmware stored in ROM.)) ACK HEHEHE Sep 16 12:37:29 DocScrutinizer05: hi :) Sep 16 12:41:10 PaulFertser: I just thought "strange how one 'guru' can influence what the masses think, no matter if makes sense or not" and started to hum >Pink Floyd - Sheep< Sep 16 12:41:26 :)) Sep 16 12:41:43 DocScrutinizer05: but his logic is consistent too. Sep 16 12:41:57 sure Sep 16 12:42:03 that's the problem Sep 16 12:46:07 look at prism54 WLAN, it has a flash rom that holds hardmac code, but you can reprogram that flash, you also can download new firmware for the onboard cpu to ram, and finally you can run the chip in softmac mode and not use the onboard cpu at all Sep 16 12:46:44 I wanna see RMS go Rumpelstielzchen with that set of properties Sep 16 12:48:05 please tell me: is that a free chip or not? Sep 16 12:49:32 He'd say: "Yes, that chip is non-free, alas. But I'm currently striving for free software. Free hardware is rather nice too, and it'd be nice to have more of it. But so far my current focus is free software." Sep 16 12:50:50 As you do not need to "touch" non-free software for using that chip (as it has everything in eeprrom already), that's ok. Sep 16 13:23:44 as already stated by you in a sound way, I'd prefer loading a blob to peripheral, over having a ROM-fixed blob on same peripheral. I don't care about RMS Sep 16 13:24:30 with the blob in a file on APE I still have a *chance* to RE and patch it Sep 16 13:26:00 maybe on neo900.org we should clearly state that the device is "free" as defined by Joerg_rw, which is a more liberal and more useful definition of "free" that the RMS definition Sep 16 13:26:13 s/that the/than the/ Sep 16 13:26:14 DocScrutinizer05 meant: maybe on neo900.org we should clearly state than the device is "free" as defined by Joerg_rw, which is a more liberal and more useful definition of "free" that the RMS definition Sep 16 13:26:32 DocScrutinizer05, lol. Sep 16 13:26:32 s/that the R/than the R/ Sep 16 13:26:33 DocScrutinizer05 meant: maybe on neo900.org we should clearly state that the device is "free" as defined by Joerg_rw, which is a more liberal and more useful definition of "free" than the RMS definition Sep 16 13:26:38 kerio: I listening to some webradio streamed over wifi via a bluetooth headset on gta04 Sep 16 13:26:53 s/I/I'm/ Sep 16 13:26:54 jake42 meant: kerio: I'm listening to some webradio streamed over wifi via a bluetooth headset on gta04 Sep 16 13:27:02 mh, i guess that streaming is still kinda ok Sep 16 13:27:31 so wifi and bluetooth does work at the same time Sep 16 13:27:37 it's stuff like scanning for networks that breaks it temporarily Sep 16 13:27:57 kerio: I see, will try that Sep 16 13:29:05 yes, a smart BT chip should autodetect the channels occupied by WLAN and avoid those in his frequency hopping Sep 16 13:31:20 he, the chip? excuse my french! Sep 16 13:32:39 tom-chip ;-P Sep 16 13:34:50 the different concepts about gender in different languages drive me nuts Sep 16 13:35:31 the existence of gender in languages is crazy Sep 16 13:35:38 indeed Sep 16 13:36:04 english is the most sane languge I know of, in that regard Sep 16 13:36:20 a lot of things are "it" Sep 16 13:36:54 yes Sep 16 13:37:35 it, the chip. it, the cat. tomcat, she-cat. in German we even have different words: "katze" "kater" Sep 16 13:38:07 we don't differentiate between people with different skin colours, age, eye colour and etc. in most languages, the choice of differentiating based on gender is useless (in today's world) Sep 16 13:38:18 DocScrutinizer05, same in Hebrew Sep 16 13:39:28 when was it useful? Sep 16 13:40:04 never, but it made more sense when women were lower class Sep 16 13:40:06 back in the days\ Sep 16 13:41:41 funny that sun is f. in German Sep 16 13:41:52 I think you mean "when women were *considered" lower class" no? Sep 16 13:41:59 DocScrutinizer05, sun is also f. in Hebrew Sep 16 13:42:06 s/ed"/ed*/ Sep 16 13:42:07 rah meant: I think you mean "when women were *considered* lower class" no? Sep 16 13:42:13 TAsn: like in elfic language :p ? Sep 16 13:42:15 Spanish has f and m for sea: "el mar" and "la mar" Sep 16 13:42:18 rah, nah, they were part of a lower class Sep 16 13:42:27 of course they were part of this\ Sep 16 13:42:28 or sth like that Sep 16 13:42:31 because they were considered this way Sep 16 13:42:41 DocScrutinizer05: good guy Sep 16 13:42:46 s/ood/ay/ Sep 16 13:42:46 rah meant: DocScrutinizer05: gay guy Sep 16 13:42:54 lol Sep 16 13:43:00 * rah <- juvenile Sep 16 13:43:03 indeed Sep 16 13:43:43 God, I have to teach infobot as well about my ignorelists Sep 16 13:44:27 DocScrutinizer05, alternatively, ignore apt. Sep 16 13:44:29 DocScrutinizer05, I think I might. Sep 16 13:44:45 TAsn: you qualified "lower class", just differently to how I suggested Sep 16 13:44:56 you said women were "part of a" lower class Sep 16 13:44:58 ~ignore #openmoko-cdevel rah Sep 16 13:44:58 error: chan #openmoko-cdevel rah is invalid. Sep 16 13:45:11 ugh, works only in query Sep 16 13:45:15 or DCC Sep 16 13:45:22 which is different from saying women "were lower class" Sep 16 13:45:47 w/e, no need to nit pick Sep 16 13:45:59 I don't really feel like arguing about such things Sep 16 13:46:13 TAsn: see my advice to dos1 Sep 16 13:46:19 DocScrutinizer05, noted. Sep 16 13:46:28 however I keep my ignorelists clean Sep 16 13:48:01 aaah Sep 16 13:48:12 ~ignore rah Sep 16 13:48:13 error: chan #openmoko-cdevel is invalid. Sep 16 13:48:19 meh Sep 16 13:50:03 It's fun how people think that by ignoring other people who pinpoint their inability to act properly or say proper things, they actually don't do such a thing Sep 16 13:52:01 Ainulindale, what? you were on my ignore list, how did you get off it? :P Sep 16 13:52:22 TAsn: heh Sep 16 13:52:25 TAsn: how are you dude? Sep 16 13:52:31 it's been a while Sep 16 13:52:35 Ainulindale, a long while, yeah. Sep 16 13:52:40 Ainulindale, I'm fine, you? Sep 16 13:52:56 Well, I've been a dad for almost a year now, balding, growing fatter Sep 16 13:53:01 Apart from that everything's fine Sep 16 13:53:25 Ainulindale, life 101: don't be a dad before you natuarlly get bald/fat :P Sep 16 13:53:32 Ainulindale, with the russian gf? Sep 16 13:53:40 Naaah Sep 16 13:53:44 She was far too annoying Sep 16 13:53:47 haha Sep 16 13:54:02 then whom with? Sep 16 13:54:27 Well, I think you can safely guess with a girl for starters Sep 16 13:54:30 A french girl :-) Sep 16 13:54:40 french?! :P Sep 16 13:54:44 Yeaaaaah Sep 16 13:54:52 Makes sense... French girls are awesome. Sep 16 13:54:59 But she's special, she likes wishky, cigars, good wine and cheese Sep 16 13:55:03 Ainulindale, where are you located nowadays? Sep 16 13:55:03 TAsn: but not french guy, see Ainulindale /o\ Sep 16 13:55:04 So she's kind of perfect Sep 16 13:55:14 TAsn: still around Paris Sep 16 13:55:24 Ainulindale, wine and cheese? No other French girl in the world likes those. Sep 16 13:55:26 Although now I'm a rich flat owner Sep 16 13:55:47 misc, especially not as girlfriends... Sep 16 13:56:03 TAsn: I'm sure I'd do a fairly nice girlfriend Sep 16 13:56:12 The beard does it all Sep 16 13:56:23 oh, you still cary that thing? :) Sep 16 13:56:28 That thing. Sep 16 13:56:29 DEAR SIR Sep 16 13:56:32 * Ainulindale slaps TAsn Sep 16 13:56:38 You've been served! Sep 16 13:56:42 :P Sep 16 13:56:43 TAsn: a beard has lots of us, hiding weapons, foods Sep 16 13:56:45 use Sep 16 13:56:56 misc, don't get me wrong, I also have a beard. Sep 16 13:57:02 TAsn: so do i :p Sep 16 13:57:11 Nah misc has a beard I've seen it Sep 16 13:57:20 my code's quality degrades when I shave it off. Sep 16 13:57:23 TAsn, from what I remember, has a shruberry Sep 16 13:57:30 But that's judging from pictures Sep 16 13:57:50 Ainulindale, I'm mostly shaven in the picture I use online Sep 16 13:58:03 and I think that in my fosdem/whatever pictures Sep 16 13:58:14 I'm also mostly shaven Sep 16 13:58:26 TMI Sep 16 13:59:27 I guess you are right. :) Sep 16 14:16:21 heh Sep 16 14:16:27 anyways, still in the promised land? Sep 16 14:17:06 in a new promised land Sep 16 14:17:15 London Sep 16 14:17:28 Damn! Sep 16 14:17:31 What do you do these days? Sep 16 14:17:40 same ol' Sep 16 14:17:41 We could almost drink a beer, you're so close :-) Sep 16 14:17:43 EFL for Samsung Sep 16 14:17:47 TAsn: meaning pimping? Sep 16 14:17:49 Ah, EFL Sep 16 14:17:57 With Daniel I guess? Sep 16 14:17:59 or Stefan? Sep 16 14:18:01 or both? Sep 16 14:18:08 Well, it's complicated. Sep 16 14:18:12 Daniel quit Sep 16 14:18:16 and moved to Berlin Sep 16 14:18:19 Oh I didn't know about that Sep 16 14:18:24 Stefan is still here Sep 16 14:18:51 but yeah, I used to work with the german task-force Sep 16 14:19:42 Ainulindale, what about you, what are you up to nowadays? Sep 16 14:20:18 I'm working for the devil Sep 16 14:20:25 I kind of sold my soul :-p Sep 16 14:20:36 (Currenty security consultant for Oracle) Sep 16 14:20:41 +l Sep 16 14:22:30 oh, I think I've actually seen that on Linkedin Sep 16 14:22:45 Ainulindale, well, I hope you didn't sell your soul too cheaply. Sep 16 14:23:09 I didn't, and anyways I don't really care about that as long as the work is what I like Sep 16 14:23:18 After all, my worst experience was in opensource so... Sep 16 14:23:57 and yet, you are here Sep 16 14:24:19 TAsn: my worst professional experience Sep 16 14:24:33 interpersonally speaking, SHR was a great experience Sep 16 14:25:07 oh you are talking about SHR? I thought you were referring to the company you worked at Sep 16 14:25:12 that did the SHR competitor Sep 16 14:25:30 yeah I was Sep 16 14:25:37 SHR wasn't a profesional activity for me Sep 16 14:25:38 ah OK. Sep 16 14:26:02 Yeah, I noticed you were quite unprofessional ;P Sep 16 14:26:09 YEAH RIGHT Sep 16 14:26:13 :) Sep 16 14:28:00 Ainulindale, OK, so at least Oracle is cool. Sep 16 14:28:05 Ainulindale, what are you working on specifically? Sep 16 14:28:17 still identity and access management specifically and security in general Sep 16 14:28:37 nice Sep 16 14:28:48 I don't know if it is :-) Sep 16 14:29:05 well, you said you like it Sep 16 14:29:31 but if he is consultant, he is always at customer site Sep 16 14:36:45 let us say that I have a problem with my current customer Sep 16 14:36:50 And I'm a bit tired, these days, to be at customers Sep 16 14:36:55 :) Sep 16 14:36:57 I'm thinking about switching jobs yet again Sep 16 14:38:06 kerio: I did not see any negative effect to bluetooth audio while doing "iwlist wlan0 scan" so far Sep 16 14:40:50