**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Nov 16 02:59:59 2013
Nov 16 14:15:05 <GNUtoo-T60> hi DocScrutinizer51 
Nov 16 14:15:14 <GNUtoo-T60> or DocScrutinizer05 
Nov 16 14:15:35 <GNUtoo-T60> I heard that the neo900 will have the possibility to have a free GSM modem...
Nov 16 14:15:51 <GNUtoo-T60> is there any details on that?
Nov 16 14:15:58 <fling> GNUtoo-T60: Hello. I want to know too
Nov 16 14:16:09 <DocScrutinizer05> well, you can build your own modem based on calypso and have it mounted
Nov 16 14:16:10 <fling> and about free wifi :>
Nov 16 14:16:33 <DocScrutinizer05> or wait for this russian guy to do that
Nov 16 14:16:44 <DocScrutinizer05> is he russian?
Nov 16 14:16:56 <GNUtoo-T60> yes, is it the same person that threatened you before?
Nov 16 14:17:01 <DocScrutinizer05> calypso-communist guy ;-)
Nov 16 14:17:07 <GNUtoo-T60> yes
Nov 16 14:17:08 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Nov 16 14:17:19 <GNUtoo-T60> I know in what country he lives...
Nov 16 14:17:30 <GNUtoo-T60> (he's not that carfull)
Nov 16 14:18:14 <DocScrutinizer05> sure, why should he. He doesn't care
Nov 16 14:18:28 <GNUtoo-T60> well, he's in USA
Nov 16 14:18:49 <GNUtoo-T60> anyway
Nov 16 14:18:57 <DocScrutinizer05> spacefalcon was the pseudo I think
Nov 16 14:19:01 <GNUtoo-T60> yes
Nov 16 14:19:09 <GNUtoo-T60> anyway, here's my todo list:
Nov 16 14:19:20 <DocScrutinizer05> we're most likely using cinterion mosules
Nov 16 14:19:33 <GNUtoo-T60> 1) make upstream-coreboot accept my last patches about fallback, gpu, and microcode
Nov 16 14:19:44 <DocScrutinizer05> which have nice almost-open UM and TRM
Nov 16 14:19:47 <GNUtoo-T60> 2) but then I'll have to choose what to work on next
Nov 16 14:20:00 <GNUtoo-T60> we failled big time with the gta04 replicant kernel...
Nov 16 14:20:13 <DocScrutinizer05> :-/
Nov 16 14:20:13 <GNUtoo-T60> I didn't have enough time to work on it,
Nov 16 14:20:20 <GNUtoo-T60> and paulk wasn't that good in kernel
Nov 16 14:20:32 <GNUtoo-T60> (he's really good at the rest though)
Nov 16 14:20:53 <GNUtoo-T60> "<DocScrutinizer05> which have nice almost-open UM and TRM"
Nov 16 14:21:01 <GNUtoo-T60> you mean that there is some datasheets?
Nov 16 14:21:11 <GNUtoo-T60> which parts are not in the datasheets then?
Nov 16 14:21:48 <DocScrutinizer05> err  PHS8-P_PHS8-K_Hardware_Interface_Description_V02.003a_05.07.2012.pdf  114 pages, and PHS8-P_AT_Command_Set_V02.003_06.07.2012.pdf 450 pages
Nov 16 14:22:18 <GNUtoo-T60> ok, sounds small....
Nov 16 14:22:36 <GNUtoo-T60> I guess it covers the modem protocol...
Nov 16 14:22:37 <DocScrutinizer05> you need to register on gemalto site and they send you a mail with download links in 15 minutes
Nov 16 14:22:42 <fling> How to build my own modem? > 21:16 < DocScrutinizer05> well, you can build your own modem
Nov 16 14:22:45 <GNUtoo-T60> I was rather talking about osmocombb-like software
Nov 16 14:23:22 <DocScrutinizer05> osmocombb-like software (the baseband part) only runs on calypso
Nov 16 14:23:38 <DocScrutinizer05> all other modem chips nowadays are tivoized
Nov 16 14:24:01 <GNUtoo-T60> really all other chips?
Nov 16 14:24:14 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't know of any that isn't
Nov 16 14:24:20 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, hello, long time no see
Nov 16 14:24:21 <GNUtoo-T60> I was rather thinking that it was some "documentation" issue.
Nov 16 14:24:30 <GNUtoo-T60> becasue the work needed to free the new chips is too huge
Nov 16 14:24:33 <GNUtoo-T60> hi ayaka 
Nov 16 14:24:51 <GNUtoo-T60> DocScrutinizer05, is the sgs2 chip tivoized?
Nov 16 14:24:57 <GNUtoo-T60> if so how?
Nov 16 14:25:01 <GNUtoo-T60> same for the gta04
Nov 16 14:25:11 <GNUtoo-T60> and for the htcdream
Nov 16 14:25:41 <dos1> GNUtoo-T60: you can't flash non-signed firmware
Nov 16 14:25:48 <GNUtoo-T60> yes, I'm aware of that
Nov 16 14:25:52 <GNUtoo-T60> but why flashing them?
Nov 16 14:25:57 <GNUtoo-T60> just load them from disk...
Nov 16 14:26:07 <DocScrutinizer05> even calypso had all the needed hw stuff to do tivoization, but for some strange reason they didn't use it. Wait and now I recall there is a 2G modem module very popular in Russia that also has hackable firmware it seems
Nov 16 14:26:08 <GNUtoo-T60> *from a file
Nov 16 14:26:10 <dos1> that's tivoization
Nov 16 14:26:13 <dos1> GNUtoo-T60: the same
Nov 16 14:26:24 <GNUtoo-T60> well, it's ineffective tivoization
Nov 16 14:26:39 <dos1> in other words
Nov 16 14:26:49 <dos1> you can't *RUN* non-signed firmware
Nov 16 14:26:49 <GNUtoo-T60> easy try:
Nov 16 14:27:01 <GNUtoo-T60> 1) keep the gsm firmware in its nand partition
Nov 16 14:27:12 <GNUtoo-T60> 2) install Replicant or something with libsamsung-ipc
Nov 16 14:27:33 <GNUtoo-T60> 3) nanddump the modem firmware
Nov 16 14:27:38 <GNUtoo-T60> 4) modify it
Nov 16 14:27:56 <GNUtoo-T60> 5) modify libsamsung-ipc or samsung-ril to load the modified file not from nand
Nov 16 14:27:59 <GNUtoo-T60> 6) try it out
Nov 16 14:28:14 <dos1> and watch how modem rejects it due to lack of proper signature
Nov 16 14:28:14 <GNUtoo-T60> the tricky part is 4)
Nov 16 14:28:17 <GNUtoo-T60> ok
Nov 16 14:28:19 <GNUtoo-T60> so you tried it
Nov 16 14:28:24 <GNUtoo-T60> where's the check done then?
Nov 16 14:28:28 <DocScrutinizer05> GNUtoo-T60: you completely failed the point
Nov 16 14:28:29 <GNUtoo-T60> in the modem's bootrom?
Nov 16 14:28:37 <DocScrutinizer05> RIL doesn't ever touch the modem firmware
Nov 16 14:28:50 <GNUtoo-T60> libsamsung-ipc does then
Nov 16 14:29:10 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, in modem's bootrom
Nov 16 14:29:21 <GNUtoo-T60> I think there are some callbacks in the C files in the directory that holds device specific code and function pointers
Nov 16 14:29:33 <GNUtoo-T60> ah ok
Nov 16 14:29:41 <DocScrutinizer05> modem has own CPU, own NAND, own RAM, own BOOTROM
Nov 16 14:29:46 <dos1> GNUtoo-T60: you know that even OMAP processors have this kind of signature checking code?
Nov 16 14:29:47 <GNUtoo-T60> if it's in the modem bootrom, then it would be really hard to get arround that
Nov 16 14:30:11 <GNUtoo-T60> though I heard that in the sgs2 case, the program that they wrote for enabling the secure mode in the bootrom failed
Nov 16 14:30:29 <GNUtoo-T60> like they ran it, and it did nothing, and the phones went into the commerce
Nov 16 14:30:35 <GNUtoo-T60> but I've no idea if it's true or not
Nov 16 14:30:57 <GNUtoo-T60> about the GTA04, the strategy would be different
Nov 16 14:31:02 <DocScrutinizer05> never heard about it, and honestly I'm not very much interested in that
Nov 16 14:31:05 <GNUtoo-T60> ok,
Nov 16 14:31:13 <GNUtoo-T60> about the gta04, it speaks a qualcomm protocol
Nov 16 14:31:24 <GNUtoo-T60> that protocol is implemented in a library that modem manager uses
Nov 16 14:31:30 <GNUtoo-T60> that library has some test programs too
Nov 16 14:31:36 <dos1> modem in gta04 speaks AT protocol via USB
Nov 16 14:31:45 <DocScrutinizer05> except for absolutely hackish things like osmocomBB there's really no use in hacking baseband firmware
Nov 16 14:31:46 <GNUtoo-T60> that protocol has peek/poke commands
Nov 16 14:31:54 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, yes, but not only
Nov 16 14:32:03 <DocScrutinizer05> there's nothing a normal user ever would want to change in it
Nov 16 14:32:08 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, there are 5 serial ports or something like that
Nov 16 14:32:18 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, one of them is for the debug protocol
Nov 16 14:32:40 <GNUtoo-T60> DocScrutinizer05, well, osmocombb is so nice
Nov 16 14:32:48 <GNUtoo-T60> there are some good uses cases
Nov 16 14:33:02 <fling> dos1: omg does it have an usb modem? :D
Nov 16 14:33:07 <DocScrutinizer05> for engineers maybe
Nov 16 14:33:19 <GNUtoo-T60> 1) we lack some database of cellid<->location
Nov 16 14:33:25 <DocScrutinizer05> and fonestly nothing a CMU200 couldn't do
Nov 16 14:33:40 <GNUtoo-T60> with osmocombb you can get GSM towers range quite fast and easily
Nov 16 14:33:52 <dos1> and illegally :D
Nov 16 14:33:54 <DocScrutinizer05> or that microBTS Harald had 150 of them, for 100EUR per device
Nov 16 14:33:55 <GNUtoo-T60> 2) security stuff
Nov 16 14:33:59 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, why?
Nov 16 14:34:21 <dos1> you cannot operate such device without certification
Nov 16 14:34:32 <dos1> and flashing osmocombb voids the certification
Nov 16 14:34:33 <DocScrutinizer05> because you're operating a RF TX that's not licenced
Nov 16 14:34:41 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, you cannot sell such device with uncertified software inside
Nov 16 14:34:49 <GNUtoo-T60> which is different
Nov 16 14:34:53 <dos1> you cannot operate it on public networks as well
Nov 16 14:35:02 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, what law said that?
Nov 16 14:35:20 <DocScrutinizer05> no, you are in for doing time in jail when *operating* a TX without according licence
Nov 16 14:35:21 <GNUtoo-T60> according to harald welte, germany laws only dictates selling 
Nov 16 14:35:35 <DocScrutinizer05> ^^^
Nov 16 14:35:47 <GNUtoo-T60> so you should not interfere with or disturb the GSM network,
Nov 16 14:36:02 <GNUtoo-T60> but I'm not sure about mere usage of uncertified software on a cell phone modem
Nov 16 14:36:08 <dos1> you can get such licence to use with your own lab network
Nov 16 14:36:12 <DocScrutinizer05> it's generally forbidden to emit *any* RF without a proper general cert or a individual licence - see HAM radio
Nov 16 14:36:13 <GNUtoo-T60> yes
Nov 16 14:36:18 <GNUtoo-T60> in France, that is possible indeed
Nov 16 14:36:32 <dos1> but without it, it's illegal to emit anything on those bands
Nov 16 14:36:50 <DocScrutinizer05> to ANY band
Nov 16 14:36:52 <GNUtoo-T60> dos1, ok, then only 1) applies then
Nov 16 14:36:54 <dos1> device with certification comes with such "licence"
Nov 16 14:37:01 <GNUtoo-T60> ok
Nov 16 14:37:02 <dos1> almost any
Nov 16 14:37:23 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, IR is free
Nov 16 14:37:31 <DocScrutinizer05> and <50kHz is free
Nov 16 14:37:41 <GNUtoo-T60> so wifi can be modified because it's on an unregulated band?
Nov 16 14:37:47 <DocScrutinizer05> no
Nov 16 14:37:49 <GNUtoo-T60> *wifi software
Nov 16 14:38:16 <DocScrutinizer05> operating a WiFi chipset with modified firmware makes it an illegal RF TX
Nov 16 14:38:24 <GNUtoo-T60> really?
Nov 16 14:38:26 <DocScrutinizer05> yes
Nov 16 14:38:37 <GNUtoo-T60> lawyers have different opinions
Nov 16 14:38:42 <DocScrutinizer05> no
Nov 16 14:39:11 <DocScrutinizer05> adding an antenna with 6dB gain makes your WLAN illegal
Nov 16 14:39:22 <GNUtoo-T60> well, that's another issue
Nov 16 14:39:25 <DocScrutinizer05> no
Nov 16 14:39:28 <GNUtoo-T60> it's not mere modifications...
Nov 16 14:39:30 <DocScrutinizer05> it's exactly the same
Nov 16 14:39:33 <GNUtoo-T60> like if you do a bugfix
Nov 16 14:39:42 <GNUtoo-T60> that doesn't change the output level
Nov 16 14:39:57 <DocScrutinizer05> it still can change other properties of the device
Nov 16 14:40:14 <GNUtoo-T60> let me find the lawyer stuff
Nov 16 14:40:36 <DocScrutinizer05> generally you are operating an illegal RF device when you do *any* changes to it after it got certified
Nov 16 14:42:07 <DocScrutinizer05> and I'm not interested in lawyer stuff, I know the laws and lawyers rad them this way today and different way tomorrow. You can bet on some lawyer suing you when you propagate you're going to install 100 WLAN hotspots with modified firmware
Nov 16 14:43:00 <DocScrutinizer05> or even some district attorney or the police will want to have a talk with you
Nov 16 14:43:16 <DocScrutinizer05> in france it's even worse
Nov 16 14:43:34 <DocScrutinizer05> you mustn't operate WLAN with 100mW outdoors
Nov 16 14:43:50 <DocScrutinizer05> you have to reduce it to 10mW
Nov 16 14:44:18 <DocScrutinizer05> even failing to throw that "switch" already makes operation of WLAN illegal in France
Nov 16 14:44:43 <DocScrutinizer05> (or was it indoors? I dunno)
Nov 16 14:45:38 <DocScrutinizer05> worst case police confiscates your hardware and state attorney prosecutes you and you get sentenced to pay a fine
Nov 16 14:46:40 <GNUtoo-T60> https://www.softwarefreedom.org/resources/2007/fcc-sdr-whitepaper.html
Nov 16 14:46:44 <DocScrutinizer05> and that's *no* different anywhere on this planet. All nations agreed to regulate operation of RF transmitters in a similar way, long ago. They meet once or twice a year to update their regulations for new stuff
Nov 16 14:47:00 <DocScrutinizer05> irrelevant
Nov 16 14:47:05 <GNUtoo-T60> because then running a computer with an ath9k would be illegal, right?
Nov 16 14:47:15 <DocScrutinizer05> nonsense
Nov 16 14:47:50 <GNUtoo-T60> "<DocScrutinizer05> you mustn't operate WLAN with 100mW outdoors", if you modify the wireless driver to do mesh and don't touch to the output power, is it illegal then (according to your understanding) ?
Nov 16 14:48:22 <GNUtoo-T60> I understood it as two different issues
Nov 16 14:48:24 <DocScrutinizer05> you heard about ISO OSI layers?
Nov 16 14:48:28 <GNUtoo-T60> yes
Nov 16 14:48:34 <ayaka> here is a dts for my exynos 4412 board http://paste.debian.net/66146/
Nov 16 14:48:37 <GNUtoo-T60> so which layer is governed by theses laws?
Nov 16 14:48:44 <DocScrutinizer05> you mustn't change layer 1 and parts of layer 2
Nov 16 14:48:44 <GNUtoo-T60> the MAC layer?
Nov 16 14:48:51 <GNUtoo-T60> ok, so what about softmac drivers?
Nov 16 14:48:59 <ayaka> but it doesn't work at all, without any output to uart and led seems doesn't work
Nov 16 14:49:01 <GNUtoo-T60> (most of the desktop cards have softMAC)
Nov 16 14:49:10 <ayaka> led heartbeat
Nov 16 14:49:15 <GNUtoo-T60> (and some cards like ath9k don't even require anything like proprietary)
Nov 16 14:49:31 <GNUtoo-T60> ayaka, does your bootloader work?
Nov 16 14:49:32 <ayaka> I use cat zImage and dtb to a new zimage to combine them
Nov 16 14:49:45 <GNUtoo-T60> ayaka, make the kenrel use the bootloader serial port...
Nov 16 14:50:03 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, yes, the u-boot is from board manufacturer
Nov 16 14:50:11 <GNUtoo-T60> (I meant that the kernel wound't touch the settings etc...and re-use them)
Nov 16 14:50:20 <GNUtoo-T60> ayaka, there are many tricks for that
Nov 16 14:50:23 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, how to?
Nov 16 14:50:39 <GNUtoo-T60> one is to grep for __log_buf in System.map
Nov 16 14:50:50 <DocScrutinizer05> GNUtoo-T60: I'm not interested in continuing a discussion if changing stuff in a softmac void certification of the hardware
Nov 16 14:50:51 <GNUtoo-T60> and to get the content of that location in uboot, after a reset
Nov 16 14:51:07 <GNUtoo-T60> but if you lack a reset button, the kenrel itself has some stuff to re-use the bootloader's serial settings
Nov 16 14:51:12 <GNUtoo-T60> like earlyprintk=
Nov 16 14:51:22 <GNUtoo-T60> or even asciiprint or stuff like that
Nov 16 14:51:39 <GNUtoo-T60> DocScrutinizer05, ok
Nov 16 14:51:51 <DocScrutinizer05> since that#s up to the particular case and will get decided by lawyers and guys of FCC or your equivalent local authority looking into it
Nov 16 14:52:06 <GNUtoo-T60> yes, as usual
Nov 16 14:52:17 <GNUtoo-T60> like the law is not ok vs not-ok
Nov 16 14:52:18 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, I have a reset button, but where is System.map? in the source code of u-boot
Nov 16 14:52:25 <GNUtoo-T60> it's rather risk assesment
Nov 16 14:52:32 <DocScrutinizer05> as long as you don't become visible, nobody cares. But it's not like it's legal to do whatever you like
Nov 16 14:52:40 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, do you received my mail, there is some about doc of exynos 4412
Nov 16 14:52:55 <GNUtoo-T60> ayaka, maybe, but I've more than 3000 mails to read
Nov 16 14:52:58 <GNUtoo-T60> maybe 10000
Nov 16 14:53:52 <GNUtoo-T60> I meant that there is a whole scale between ok and not-ok
Nov 16 14:54:22 <GNUtoo-T60> like if you're into a court, you could loose even if you're really close to 100% ok, and the opposite applies too
Nov 16 14:54:33 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, sorry, may you search it and read it once
Nov 16 14:54:42 <GNUtoo-T60> let me look,
Nov 16 14:55:11 <ayaka> I use the mail address lxr1234 to send it
Nov 16 14:55:12 <GNUtoo-T60> I had the dual core one:
Nov 16 14:55:13 <GNUtoo-T60> http://www.coreboot.org/Exynos5
Nov 16 14:55:19 <GNUtoo-T60> ok
Nov 16 14:56:00 <GNUtoo-T60> hmmm,
Nov 16 14:56:06 <GNUtoo-T60> the issue is the metadata
Nov 16 14:56:35 <GNUtoo-T60> it could have some watermark or something like that
Nov 16 14:57:50 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, yes, there is watermark
Nov 16 14:58:04 <GNUtoo-T60> ah ok
Nov 16 14:59:00 <ayaka> GNUtoo-T60, would you like to me to send those documents but please don't release them before your crack those documents
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Nov 17 02:59:59 2013