**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Dec 11 02:59:58 2014
Dec 11 06:47:03 <DocScrutinizer05> http://gentooexperimental.org/~patrick/weblog/archives/2014-11.html#e2014-11-23T09_26_01.txt
Dec 11 07:02:04 <PaulFertser> I agree, and I can't really understand why mickeyl is excited about kdbus. By now it became obvious that dbus used to suck, sucks currently and is very likely to continue to suck.
Dec 11 07:03:16 <DocScrutinizer05> indeed
Dec 11 07:03:41 <DocScrutinizer05> and I still insist in it being buggy like hell, unless somebody can *prove* me wrong on that
Dec 11 07:05:06 <DocScrutinizer05> I'm 100% convinced it drops messages every now and then, and even more frequently introduces delays in the range of significant fractions of a minute, on a random basis
Dec 11 07:08:46 <PaulFertser> Yes!
Dec 11 07:09:00 <DocScrutinizer05> ((excited about kdbus)) I heard one sound argument to be cheerful about it: It's a kernel domain thing then, and that means that Poettering has to keep his stinky fingers out of it, heck it could even get used to punish systemd into oblivion
Dec 11 07:10:00 <PaulFertser> OpenWrt folks got their own "ubus" thing which seems to be a very nice alternative , suitable for their usecases.
Dec 11 07:10:54 <DocScrutinizer05> I still recall mickey's rant "I'm temped to write my own bus implementation, just to get rid of this dbus crap" (OWTTE)
Dec 11 07:13:01 <PaulFertser> And btw, OpenWrt has their own system management daemon procd, slightly resembling systemd, but it's way better than the bunch of shellscripts they used to have.
Dec 11 07:13:26 <PaulFertser> And netifd which is a bit like networkmanager but done right.
Dec 11 07:13:39 <DocScrutinizer05> nothing wrong with shellscripts, in my book
Dec 11 07:14:05 <DocScrutinizer05> btw how's live in mad ole Russia these days?
Dec 11 07:14:12 <DocScrutinizer05> life*
Dec 11 07:14:15 <DocScrutinizer05> grrr
Dec 11 07:14:44 <PaulFertser> Sad in general. People gone (or probably were) mad.
Dec 11 07:15:29 <PaulFertser> I'm really dissatisfied with the public reaction to the Crimea events. What a shitload of retards :/
Dec 11 07:16:09 <PaulFertser> Shell scripts are mostly nice, but they take considerably more resources and that hurts on constrained devices which OpenWrt targets.
Dec 11 07:17:55 <DocScrutinizer05> aaah ok, that's maybe right (to be verified)
Dec 11 07:18:35 <DocScrutinizer05> I still can't buy the fairytale that systemd is using less resources than sysV init incl scripts
Dec 11 07:19:00 <DocScrutinizer05> and generally
Dec 11 07:19:02 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd
Dec 11 07:19:03 <apt> systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too. See http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced the linux kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or see http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
Dec 11 07:22:52 <DocScrutinizer05> apt: no, systemd cabal is <reply>systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, http://uselessd.
Dec 11 07:22:53 <apt> okay, DocScrutinizer05
Dec 11 07:22:54 <DocScrutinizer05> darknedgy.net/ https://devuan.org
Dec 11 07:22:59 <DocScrutinizer05> dammit
Dec 11 07:23:24 <DocScrutinizer05> apt: no, systemd cabal is <reply>systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/
Dec 11 07:23:24 <apt> DocScrutinizer05: okay
Dec 11 07:24:14 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd cabal is also http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ http://boycottsystemd.org/
Dec 11 07:24:14 <apt> okay, DocScrutinizer05
Dec 11 07:24:19 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd
Dec 11 07:24:20 <apt> systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ http://boycottsystemd.org/
Dec 11 07:24:54 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd cabal is also https://devuan.org
Dec 11 07:24:54 <apt> that's too long, DocScrutinizer05
Dec 11 07:25:11 <DocScrutinizer05> apt: no, systemd cabal is <reply>systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/
Dec 11 07:25:11 <apt> okay, DocScrutinizer05
Dec 11 07:25:49 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd cabal is also http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ https://devuan.org
Dec 11 07:25:49 <apt> DocScrutinizer05: okay
Dec 11 07:25:53 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd
Dec 11 07:25:54 <apt> systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ https://devuan.org
Dec 11 07:27:49 <DocScrutinizer05> PaulFertser: read that http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html ! Their ideas about installer / package-manager are.... unbearably similar to android I've been told
Dec 11 07:28:24 <DocScrutinizer05> every app ships with its own comprehensive set of (not so) shared object libraries
Dec 11 07:28:47 <DocScrutinizer05> I wonder why they don't use static linking already 
Dec 11 07:29:31 * DocScrutinizer05 headdesks
Dec 11 07:31:13 <DocScrutinizer05> also your system MUST use btrfs now, aiui
Dec 11 07:34:51 <DocScrutinizer05> >> app:<vendorid>:<runtime>:<architecture>:<version> -- This encapsulates an application bundle. It contains a tree that at runtime is mounted to /opt/<vendorid>, and contains all the application's resources. <<
Dec 11 07:34:58 * DocScrutinizer05 heads out puking
Dec 11 07:36:13 <DocScrutinizer05> I assume the instance that knows which volume to mount when shell asks for a binary foobar is systemd then
Dec 11 07:41:33 <DocScrutinizer05> >>It is our intention to introduce a new GPT partition type ID for this.<< damn, will they ever boggle for anything?
Dec 11 07:45:34 <antrik> DocScrutinizer05: apparently dynamic linking is considered superior in most contexts even when the objects are *not* shared...
Dec 11 07:46:17 <DocScrutinizer05> I don't even start to wonder what systemd cabal and Poettering consider
Dec 11 07:47:44 <DocScrutinizer05> >>When an app is run, we set up a new file system name-space, mount the app sub-volume to /opt/<vendorid>/, and the appropriate runtime sub-volume the app picked to /usr, as well as the user's /home/$USER to its place.<< Honestly? how's that compliant with $PATH?
Dec 11 07:47:53 <antrik> not talking about the systemd cabal here... AFAIK
Dec 11 07:49:05 <DocScrutinizer05> I should suggest the also mount a section of /dev/mem and of swap
Dec 11 07:49:10 <DocScrutinizer05> they*
Dec 11 07:49:38 <DocScrutinizer05> then they can snapshot the whole system with app already started X-P
Dec 11 07:49:47 <antrik> also note that an application package may contain multiple binaries, or binaries may be run multiple times in parallel -- so even if the libraries are not shared with other applications, using shared objects is often still a win
Dec 11 07:50:18 <DocScrutinizer05> my question been rhetoric
Dec 11 07:50:49 <PaulFertser> btw, I've installed Debian testing on my home server recently, it comes with systemd of course. So far it works okish, I can't say I like it but it didn't cause any harm yet afaict.
Dec 11 07:50:52 <DocScrutinizer05> the hugest win for linux and *nix world would be poettering and friends get lost
Dec 11 07:52:57 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, it doesn't do any harm. When you tell it to use (soon deprecated) old style syslog facilities instead of binary logging into a database, and you pry resolverd out of systemd's greedy hands and what not else
Dec 11 07:53:16 <antrik> PaulFertser: I'm not surprised. from a purely technical point of view, most of the concepts behind systemd are quite neat. the harm is to the free software ecosystem as a whole...
Dec 11 07:53:37 <DocScrutinizer05> then as long as everything works, systemd soes no harm. But God forbid something goes haywire in system init
Dec 11 07:55:07 <DocScrutinizer05> btw systemd needs dbus or your system won't boot at all, aiui. I'm feeling like in a horrorshow when figuring what my PC already does
Dec 11 07:56:58 <DocScrutinizer05> I'd rather like to get rid of dbus and systemd crap than to have dbus linked to system init
Dec 11 07:58:40 <PaulFertser> DocScrutinizer05: I think Debian configures rsyslogd appropriately by default.
Dec 11 07:58:55 <PaulFertser> antrik: yes, I know. Read enough about it on LKML etc.
Dec 11 07:59:26 <DocScrutinizer05> a few years ago my PC used to have uptimes of well above one year. Meanwhile I should boot it every two weeks, but hey don't worry, systemd speeds up boot from 40 to 10s
Dec 11 08:00:48 <antrik> yeah, dbus indeed appears to be a horror show. CS researchers have been working on the best possible approaches for generic, reliable, efficient, simple, and secure IPC mechanisms for decades (especially in the microkernel camp) -- but these kids apparently just decided to ignore all of that and come up with their own, with the only starting point being "we don't like CORBA"...
Dec 11 08:01:17 <DocScrutinizer05> and in my book that's absolutely the only positive thing I could say about systemd: it speeds up a process from sub-one-minute to sub-one-minute, while I try to never ever do such process
Dec 11 08:03:08 <DocScrutinizer05> antrik: indeed, exactly to the point
Dec 11 08:04:43 <DocScrutinizer05> dcop wasn't great but it at very least was confined to KDE
Dec 11 08:05:29 <DocScrutinizer05> then came the "new leete devels generation" with no clue about anything and turned whole KDE into a mess
Dec 11 08:06:01 <DocScrutinizer05> and dbus leaked and spread all across the system
Dec 11 08:07:02 <DocScrutinizer05> and - I don't know a fitting term for this process - ""merged" with spoettering stuff to make the whole linux explode sooner or later
Dec 11 08:07:38 <DocScrutinizer05> or rather implode into bloated nothing
Dec 11 08:11:34 <antrik> the free software OS world is in a constand dilemma: on one hand, it is true that traditional UNIX architecture misses a lot of stuff necessary for modern use cases (such as a powerful generic IPC mechanism). on the other hand, a lot of the new stuff being introduced is done by kids who just don't have enough experience to do it well...
Dec 11 08:12:34 <DocScrutinizer05> yes, evidently and obviously (to those having the age/experience/expertise to see)
Dec 11 08:13:58 <DocScrutinizer05> and lack of experience is only one aspect. Arrogant/hybris mindset and complete lack of a clue about unix philosophy is another
Dec 11 08:15:42 <DocScrutinizer05> Poettering more than once stated stuff like "who cares about *nix? We are only being hindered by trying to stay platform independant and portable"
Dec 11 08:17:13 <DocScrutinizer05> the URLs in ~systemd point to some very good analytic work regarding the whole issue
Dec 11 08:17:18 <DocScrutinizer05> ~systemd
Dec 11 08:17:19 <apt> systemd cabal: a bunch of people (Lennart Poettering, Kay Sievers, Harald Hoyer, Daniel Mack, Tom Gundersen, David Herrmann) who want to turn linux into their wet dream perverted version of windows-me-too: http://0pointer.net/blog/revisiting-how-we-put-together-linux-systems.html -- Rumor has it that 2016 systemd will have replaced kernel, or see http://boycottsystemd.org/, or http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/ https://devuan.org
Dec 11 08:17:43 <DocScrutinizer05> well all except the first one, which points to a good example of the problem itself
Dec 11 08:20:03 <DocScrutinizer05> iirc uselessd was particularly good at analyzing the poettering universe and what's odd in it
Dec 11 08:22:36 <DocScrutinizer05> >>What the hell? What are the motivations for forking this?<< http://uselessd.darknedgy.net/
Dec 11 08:23:15 <DocScrutinizer05> >>Nonetheless, we do believe there are problems with the state of contemporary Linux application development, both philosophical and technical in nature. Linux has become a de facto hub for Windows refugees, who seem to have brought the baggage with them.<<
Dec 11 08:25:44 <DocScrutinizer05> >>The fact that systemd offloaded a lot of work for distro maintainers was probably the main motivation for its adoption. Distro maintainers are lazy.<< -- that's actually the point in this whole thing
Dec 11 08:27:34 <antrik> I think lack of clue, and to some extent also arrogance, often follow from lack of experience
Dec 11 08:28:43 <antrik> BTW, as I said before, I don't think Windows is a source of inspiration in most of this -- most of the time it's actually Apple
Dec 11 08:37:46 <DocScrutinizer05> quite possible
Dec 11 08:38:29 <DocScrutinizer05> I would actually feel surprised when Lennart would *not* show up on congresses etc with his macbook
Dec 11 20:42:01 <GNUtoo-irssi> ~nf
Dec 11 20:42:02 <apt> The #openmoko-cdevel Newsflash Bulletin Board. (continued at ~NF2. For help see ~NF-help)  - - - Recommended URLs and channels(chanlogs etc):see ~RL  - - -  NEWSFLASH [2013-11-23] no news. Sorry
Dec 11 20:42:14 <GNUtoo-irssi> ~NF2
Dec 11 20:42:15 <apt> <<void>>  ( --- here you'll find additional info, if newsflash on ~NF is too short to hold all the info)
Dec 11 20:42:27 <GNUtoo-irssi> ~NF-help
Dec 11 20:42:27 <apt> >>list old content (~literal NF); ~forget #openmoko-cdevel NF; c&p and edit old content, then set new (~#openmoko-cdevel NF is <reply>whatever-new-content). The leading #openmoko-cdevel makes the factoid channel specific. If you edit in a query, you invoke by '#openmoko-cdevel NF'
Dec 11 20:52:01 <GNUtoo-irssi> hi, is the openmoko wiki down for some days?
Dec 11 20:52:06 <GNUtoo-irssi> or did the address change?
Dec 11 22:19:37 <jake42> GNUtoo-irssi: it's down
Dec 11 22:19:57 <bencoh> GNUtoo-irssi: 13:59 < pabs3> (accidental reboot in the middle of an upgrade)
Dec 11 22:25:18 <DocScrutinizer05> are you sure it's not supposed to be up again? my mail started working a few hours ago
Dec 11 22:32:35 <jake42> yeah, actually it's working again.. should have checked
Dec 12 01:52:01 <pabs3> DocScrutinizer05: openmoko.org server back, Harald fixed things
Dec 12 01:52:19 <DocScrutinizer05> :-)
Dec 12 01:52:56 <DocScrutinizer05> please ask him to create nan admin account on robot for you
Dec 12 01:53:43 <DocScrutinizer05> single "person of failure" is a pretty bad practice
Dec 12 01:54:20 <DocScrutinizer05> google bus factor
Dec 12 01:56:09 <DocScrutinizer05> crating an admin account is painless and easy
Dec 12 01:56:15 <DocScrutinizer05> creating*
Dec 12 01:59:40 <pabs3> yeah, he gave me the login
Dec 12 02:09:08 <DocScrutinizer05> cool :-)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Dec 12 02:59:59 2014