**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 02 02:59:58 2016
Feb 02 09:40:04 <mickeyl> anyone know anything about the open/closed-ness of the Samsung Z1 and Z3?
Feb 02 09:40:09 <mickeyl> good morning, btw.
Feb 02 09:49:55 <rahc_> mickeyl: no
Feb 02 09:50:08 <rahc_> mickeyl: are you looking at the list of open source mobile phones on wikipedia?
Feb 02 09:50:48 <rahc_> mickeyl: if so, I cleaned the page up after some xda-developers-type fool sprinkled android-loving shite all over it
Feb 02 09:51:08 <rahc_> mickeyl: including, it seems, the Z1 and Z3
Feb 02 09:51:39 <rahc_> I haven't looked up anything about them except to see whether they're still available
Feb 02 09:52:03 <mickeyl> do you have a link handy?
Feb 02 09:52:18 <mickeyl> i visited Raster's talk on FOSDEM where he talked about tizen
Feb 02 09:52:27 <mickeyl> and am thinking about whether the Z3 would let me replace userland
Feb 02 09:52:55 <rahc> http://www.samsung.com/in/microsite/z3/
Feb 02 09:53:59 <mickeyl> ok, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_open-source_mobile_phones that you mean probably
Feb 02 09:54:00 <mickeyl> good list
Feb 02 09:54:05 <rahc> oh the list
Feb 02 09:54:22 <mickeyl> would benefit from a classifier though that gives a bit more info about "how" open
Feb 02 09:54:36 <mickeyl> i.e. pointing out the proprietary components
Feb 02 09:54:41 <mickeyl> where no FOSS alternative exists
Feb 02 10:01:31 <rahc> well, really the page is very wooly
Feb 02 10:02:00 <rahc> why is Android barred for having lots of proprietary driver but Firefox OS not?
Feb 02 10:02:40 <rahc> or any other OS?
Feb 02 10:03:00 <rahc> even the GTA04 needs proprietary drivers
Feb 02 10:10:09 <mickeyl> yeah, there's improvement potential on the page.
Feb 02 10:12:13 <mickeyl> besides... IIRC both firefox OS and ubuntu OS is based on Android kernels and drivers anyways
Feb 02 10:12:29 <mickeyl> so that should be made much clearer
Feb 02 10:12:56 <rahc> exactly
Feb 02 10:15:04 <PaulFertser> Hm, what proprietary drivers does GTA02 really need?
Feb 02 10:15:58 <rahc> PaulFertser: does the wifi need a binary blob?
Feb 02 10:18:47 <rahc> hmm Atheros AR6001GZ
Feb 02 10:21:21 <PaulFertser> rahc: blob is running on wifi module itself, not part of the driver
Feb 02 10:21:36 <PaulFertser> rahc: I wanted to ask about GTA04 actually.
Feb 02 10:22:07 <PaulFertser> rahc: and btw, that blob in gta02 case is actually stored inside the module and is not upgradeable.
Feb 02 10:29:30 <rahc> PaulFertser: in that case s/GTA04 needs proprietary drivers/GTA04 needs proprietary blobs/
Feb 02 10:30:50 <mickeyl> yep
Feb 02 10:32:59 <PaulFertser> rahc: what blobs does GTA04 need?
Feb 02 10:33:44 <PaulFertser> rahc: also, what single computer-based electronics device do you know that doesn't need blobs at all?
Feb 02 10:33:54 <PaulFertser> rahc: every uSD card needs a blob.
Feb 02 10:34:48 <rahc> PaulFertser: the wifi/bluetooth module for the GTA04 needs a binary firmware blob
Feb 02 10:35:10 <rahc> PaulFertser: there are no free computers
Feb 02 10:35:36 <rahc> PaulFertser: http://settrans.net/~rah/digital-freedom.txt
Feb 02 10:36:10 <PaulFertser> rahc: I mean, what's so special about the module that needs a blob when every uSD needs a blob too, every computer display, etc etc? 
Feb 02 10:36:48 <PaulFertser> rahc: what smartphone needs less blobs than GTA04?
Feb 02 10:39:40 <rahc> PaulFertser: the critical issue is whether the firmware is upgradable
Feb 02 10:40:33 <rahc> PaulFertser: I would imagine most uSD cards don't have upgradable firmware
Feb 02 10:41:02 <rahc> PaulFertser: I don't know of any phone motherborad that needs fewer blobs than the GTA04
Feb 02 10:41:34 <PaulFertser> rahc: when a blob is stored on host, it's easier to upgrade than when it's in mask rom, so in this sense external blobs are much better. So gta04 is better than gta02.
Feb 02 10:41:55 <PaulFertser> rahc: I think most uSD cards have upgradeable firmware, as well as USB mass storage devices.
Feb 02 10:42:21 <rahc> 10:22 < PaulFertser> rahc: and btw, that blob in gta02 case is actually stored inside the module and is not upgradeable.
Feb 02 10:42:33 <rahc> PaulFertser: you just said the firmware wasn't upgradeable
Feb 02 10:42:49 <PaulFertser> rahc: no upgradeable on gta02, upgradeable on gta04.
Feb 02 10:43:19 <rahc> PaulFertser: http://lwn.net/Articles/460654/
Feb 02 10:44:36 <PaulFertser> rahc: that's just an insane project to make gta04 less upgradeable but more appealing to fit RMS's standards. 
Feb 02 10:47:17 <PaulFertser> rahc: this comment pretty much sums it up: http://lwn.net/Articles/461207/
Feb 02 10:47:50 <PaulFertser> I asked RMS himself about that, he said "you have to draw the line somewhere".
Feb 02 10:49:33 <rahc> PaulFertser: http://lists.goldelico.com/pipermail/gta04-owner/2011-September/000323.html
Feb 02 10:50:34 <PaulFertser> rahc: that solution would have been beneficial for only one thing: FSF endorsement.
Feb 02 10:52:03 <PaulFertser> rahc: so if one uses FSF guidelines in the strictest way, yes, gta04 is less free than gta02. If one uses more sense, gta04 is as free as gta02 but more hackable.
Feb 02 10:52:33 <PaulFertser> That's my point. What's yours, what are we arguing about?
Feb 02 10:52:48 <rahc> I'm not arguing
Feb 02 10:52:59 <PaulFertser> I thought I was :)
Feb 02 10:53:07 <rahc> indeed
Feb 02 10:53:09 <PaulFertser> Like arguing too much probably
Feb 02 11:08:46 * mickeyl downloads the Z3 code drop to get a clearer idea
Feb 02 11:18:18 <rahc> mickeyl: let us know what you find?
Feb 02 11:18:35 <mickeyl> for sure
Feb 02 12:17:50 <mickeyl> hmm
Feb 02 12:17:51 <mickeyl> #
Feb 02 12:17:51 <mickeyl> # Android
Feb 02 12:17:51 <mickeyl> #
Feb 02 12:17:52 <mickeyl> CONFIG_ANDROID=y
Feb 02 12:17:52 <mickeyl> CONFIG_ANDROID_BINDER_IPC=y
Feb 02 12:17:54 <mickeyl> CONFIG_ANDROID_BINDER_IPC_32BIT=y
Feb 02 12:17:55 <mickeyl> CONFIG_ASHMEM=y
Feb 02 12:17:57 <mickeyl> CONFIG_ANDROID_LOGGER=y
Feb 02 12:18:01 <mickeyl> CONFIG_ANDROID_TIMED_OUTPUT=y
Feb 02 12:18:04 <mickeyl> so it's basically an android kernel running
Feb 02 12:19:00 <mickeyl> perhaps only parts of it though, since they at least have something else than surfaceflinger, audioflinger, and all the other androidisms
Feb 02 12:20:21 <bencoh> mickeyl: efl+wayland maybe?
Feb 02 12:21:17 * rahc has done some work on Tizen
Feb 02 12:21:24 <rahc> Wayland is the norm
Feb 02 12:34:18 <mickeyl> unpacking 1.8G on a samba share takes a while...
Feb 02 12:34:38 <mickeyl> gcc with its gazillion of files....
Feb 02 12:35:52 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-core-7.0.30.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:52 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-damage-1.2.1.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:52 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-dri2-2.8.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:52 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-fixes-5.0.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:54 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-kb-1.0.6.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:54 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-renderproto-0.11.1.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:57 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-video-2.3.2.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:57 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-proto-xext-7.3.1.rpm
Feb 02 12:35:59 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-xkb-utils-7.9.1.rpm
Feb 02 12:36:03 <mickeyl> ./repos/armv7l/xorg-x11-xutils-dev-7.7.rpm
Feb 02 12:36:05 <mickeyl> so this particular release is still based on X
Feb 02 12:42:31 <mickeyl> heh, fun, seems they have a whole toolchain on the device installed
Feb 02 12:43:00 <mickeyl> binutils, gcc, all there ;)
Feb 02 12:43:05 <mickeyl> *shrug*
Feb 02 12:43:35 <mickeyl> 174 -devel packages
Feb 02 12:43:42 <rahc> plainly they want us to hack it.. they've made it easy for us :-)
Feb 02 12:43:42 <mickeyl> no wonder it's so big
Feb 02 12:43:45 <mickeyl> hehe
Feb 02 12:44:19 * mickeyl must find a source for this device
Feb 02 12:44:32 <mickeyl> apparently you can't buy it on their site unless you're coming from india
Feb 02 12:45:28 <mickeyl> 7999 Rupien
Feb 02 12:45:34 <mickeyl> rupees, that is
Feb 02 12:46:16 <mickeyl> that would be quite decent, if the global resellers wouldn't double the price...
Feb 02 12:51:34 <bencoh> we'd still need free drivers, and proper modem/cpu isolation
Feb 02 12:51:39 <rahc> that does seem extremely reasonable
Feb 02 12:51:47 <rahc> there are plenty on ebay it seems
Feb 02 12:52:11 <rahc> bencoh: you're right, we need a good mobile phone
Feb 02 12:52:21 <rahc> bencoh: unfortunately there are no good mobile phones
Feb 02 12:52:36 <bencoh> yeah, I know ;) ( :/ )
Feb 02 12:53:52 <bencoh> I wonder how close z3 would be (maybe as close as galaxy S2 is)
Feb 02 13:10:36 <rahc> mickeyl: where/what was this talk by Rasterman?
Feb 02 14:03:40 <mickeyl> rahc: last sunday on FOSDEM
Feb 02 14:03:58 <mickeyl> "The Enlightenment of Wayland" - a story about Enlightenment, Tizen, and Wayland
Feb 02 14:46:11 <rahc> mickeyl: thanks
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 03 02:59:58 2016