**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 27 03:00:01 2017 Jan 27 03:05:11 pabs3: that IMEI thing is nothing. do you know http://toucharcade.com/2015/09/16/we-own-you-confessions-of-a-free-to-play-producer/ ? Jan 27 03:07:15 hadn't seen that no Jan 27 03:15:08 rah: regarding viable free phone UIs, what about Unity? no arguing Canonical does some stupid things -- nevertheless the software is free and seems reasonably functional... Jan 27 03:15:58 PaulFertser: what's wrong with the mindset of LibreOffice? as for Firefox and Ubuntu, there are same warts, but nothing too obnoxious IMHO... Jan 27 03:16:42 BTW, the most widely successfull free software for end users might actually be VLC... Jan 27 03:20:06 as for bug reports, the automatic crash tool in Firefox produces quite valuable information even without users needing any technical skills. probably also true to some degree for Ubuntu. also, even if a vast majority of users never contribute, Mozilla still actually has a lot of volunteer contributions Jan 27 03:22:04 as for the fundamental question at hand, I both agree and disagree. I believe community-driven free software projects need to focus on hackers first -- only when they have matured reasonably well they can realistically gain a wider audience Jan 27 03:26:34 PaulFertser: so far sysvinit support on Debian doesn't feel second-class to me... Jan 27 03:34:23 rah: not sure how CSIRO's questionable fields of activity are relevant to the content of this article?... Jan 27 05:32:35 antrik: I do not think "office suits" in general are good tools, and LibreOffice just one of those. Jan 27 05:33:18 antrik: the discussion regarding systemd was too hot, and still there's Devuan as the result, and they say they have to modify some packages... Jan 27 06:07:04 PaulFertser: Devuan has to modify packages because they want to remove all traces of systemd, not because it's needed to use sysvinit Jan 27 06:11:47 antrik: hm, interesting Jan 27 06:12:28 * pabs3 wonders if they are sending patches for nosystemd build profiles Jan 27 09:33:54 antrik: I don't think Unity has a dialer, contacts manager, etc. :-) Jan 27 09:35:55 antrik: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ub5RtAu-j0I Jan 27 09:41:07 I expect Ubuntu has those things for Ubuntu Phone Jan 27 09:43:12 Ubuntu Phone has a strong Android legacy; it was originally built on top of Android Jan 27 09:43:55 last time I looked, they had changed to a GNU base but still relied on Android bits through containers Jan 27 09:46:19 plus, you know, Canonical.. https://skitterman.wordpress.com/2015/05/26/information-exchange-between-the-ubuntu-community-council-and-the-kubuntu-council/ Jan 27 11:05:36 http://www.pcworld.com/article/2998647/operating-systems/kubuntus-founder-resigns-accuses-canonical-of-defrauding-donors-and-violating-copyright.html Jan 27 18:42:28 antrik: that's about right. You can run systemd cancer along with another PID1, but it's still cancer introducing madness like 8.8.8.8 default on resolver, and whatnot else Jan 27 18:46:31 I'm sorry I totally lose threads in here, I have no idea what been the original post introducing libreoffice, or IMEI, or 'viable free phone UIs', or systemd at large Jan 27 18:47:31 pabs3: thanks for link to Harald's gnumonks rant blog post about Eagle! Jan 27 22:49:48 rah: yes, I am aware that Ubuntu Phone uses Android components (didn't even know they moved towards a stronger GNU base) -- but that doesn't mean you can't run the UI (including dialer etc.) on a pure GNU base, if you have any device that offers proper hardware support that way... Jan 27 22:50:36 as for Canonical, as I said, I certainly do not approve of all their actions; but as long as it doesn't affect the freedom of the software itself, I'm trying to be pragmatic Jan 27 22:51:21 (and in the Kubuntu quarrels, I'm not at all convinced this was primarily Canonical's fault...) Jan 27 22:53:51 antrik: Ubuntu Phone is not intended to be a mobile environment atop a GNU/Linux system Jan 27 22:55:02 antrik: it's supposed to be an operating system in its own right Jan 27 22:55:27 you don't "apt-get install ubuntu-phone" Jan 27 22:55:44 PaulFertser: I somewhat agree regarding word processors: I don't have much use for them; between plain text for pure text content, and various publishing tools for things that actually need formatting, it's hard to come up with use cases that actually *need* word processors... Jan 27 22:56:04 and if you went to the Ubuntu Phone developers and proposed that, I don't think anyone would be interested in the slightest Jan 27 22:56:13 they don't care Jan 27 22:56:30 PaulFertser: however, I can see how for cases that are somewhat in-between, such as writing letters, most people feel more comfortable using them than dealing with proper publishing tools Jan 27 22:56:45 they're not trying to make a coherent free software mobile environment Jan 27 22:57:14 they're trying to make Ubuntu Phone(tm) Jan 27 22:57:36 my major qualm with word processers is that people have a strong propensity to abuse them for things that would *clearly* be better done with plain text or with proper publishing tools Jan 27 22:58:30 antrik: and as for Canonical, the Kubunutu mess is only the tip of the iceburg Jan 27 22:58:36 as for spreadsheets, I think they are actually genuinely useful -- I sometimes even use them myself. again, my major qualm is people abusing them to store data Jan 27 22:58:55 s/burg/berg/ Jan 27 22:58:55 rah meant: antrik: and as for Canonical, the Kubunutu mess is only the tip of the iceberg Jan 27 22:59:36 DocScrutinizer05: I don't think I actually have any systemd components running on my Debian aside from udev (which started out as an independent project...) Jan 27 22:59:55 s/Kubunutu/Kubuntu/ Jan 27 22:59:55 rah meant: antrik: and as for Canonical, the Kubuntu mess is only the tip of the iceburg Jan 27 23:00:13 apt: stupid bot Jan 27 23:00:14 Stupid human. Jan 27 23:00:51 I certainly don't use systemd's name resolution or anything like that Jan 27 23:03:12 rah: I actually think that's exactly what Ubuntu Phone is meant to be. the fact that they are not interested in packaging it for other distributions themselves is not surprising; but that doesn't mean you can't do that Jan 27 23:03:43 antrik: I disagree, I don't think that's what Ubuntu Phone is meant to be Jan 27 23:04:33 antrik: if you think Ubuntu Phone is a good candidate for a generalised, coherent free software mobile environment, then I encourage you to seek out the Ubuntu Phone developers and discuss it with them Jan 27 23:04:44 antrik: I would be most eager to learn of what you discover Jan 27 23:04:54 ubuntu is a business model to make money from linux. Ubuntu phone is a business model like android to make money from smartphones Jan 27 23:05:34 none of that canonical stuff is meant to support 'the community' Jan 27 23:06:16 Sguttleworth (spelling?) has a clear idea *why* he does all that, and it's not about altruism Jan 27 23:06:18 nothing any company ever does as their major product is ever meant to support the community. they are a business, after all. doesn't mean the community can't make use of it. Jan 27 23:06:43 wel, actually, often it does Jan 27 23:07:10 yeah, replicant "makes use" of fubar android stuff, trying to sanitize it Jan 27 23:07:35 DocScrutinizer05: actually, for all we know, it *is* altruism. Canonical has made losses for years (and in fact I haven't heard of this changing yet); if he was out for money, he would have shut it down long ago. indeed he said something along these lines in the past Jan 27 23:08:03 the fact that he tries to make the business sustainable doesn't mean he only did it for the money in the first place Jan 27 23:08:05 redhat 'makes use' of linux abusing it to turn it into some systemd ifested mess that only experts really can maintain Jan 27 23:11:47 eh. I very much doubt that RedHat's support of systemd is some kind of backhanded business tactic Jan 27 23:16:24 * rah encourages antrik to read http://libv.livejournal.com/27461.html Jan 27 23:16:26 while I do not approve of what systemd is doing, I do acknowledge that it has some genuine short- to medium-term advantages for moving forward much faster... (I just don't think it justifies the toil on the larger free software community -- but that's the personal mindset of the systemd cabal, not something purposely pushed by RedHat for all I can tell) Jan 27 23:17:08 rah: hah. I don't even need to read that to know that it's another paranoid rant -- I know that guy pretty well :-) Jan 27 23:17:29 O_o Jan 27 23:17:31 fascinating Jan 27 23:17:42 you just displayed exactly the behaviour he discusses Jan 27 23:17:44 (and in fact I think he is a pretty nice guy -- just terribly paranoid...) Jan 27 23:18:32 he certainly does come off a bit paranoid and perhaps it would be easy to dismiss if it weren't for the comments agreeing with what he says about Red Hat Jan 27 23:25:48 * rah -> zzz Jan 28 00:14:13 rah: so, I read the article (and also the IRC log), and I must say it was quite interesting, since there was a lot of history I didn't know. but mostly it confirmed my initial assumption that it's another paranoid rant :-) Jan 28 00:17:44 as for RedHat, he doesn't really say a lot about them in the article (though IIRC he had made paranoid tirades about them in the past); and I only see a single comment mentioning RedHat, with just some very vague generic bashing... Jan 28 00:19:56 as for the RadeonHD story, I have witnessed it as it unfolded, and I'm pretty sure the conspiracy he paints is entirely in his paranoid mind Jan 28 00:23:08 BTW, I think the BIOS-based modesetting code in the radeon driver, competing with the fully "native" RadeonHD driver, was actually added *before* the maintainer joined RedHat... don't remember for sure though Jan 28 00:23:39 it certainly didn't feel politically motivated in any way at that time though **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 28 03:00:02 2017