**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Jun 11 03:00:03 2018 Jun 11 10:55:02 pabs3: that does look impressive indeed. I wonder what kind of stack they actually run there. Is that a modified Android kernel w/ a Linux user land or what would I expect when flashing one of their images? Jun 11 10:56:04 no idea. I note they use iMX6 Jun 11 10:56:37 and Purism is going to be using iMX8 Jun 11 10:57:30 I have a pretty much spare Nexus 6 here… i wonder whether I should try to flash a postmarketOS image on it and just check Jun 11 10:58:22 Is there anyone out there making and/or selling a mobile device that runs a proper Linux stack instead of trying to bolt Linux on top of a low-level Android stack via hacks like libhybris? Jun 11 10:58:31 The N900 does it but that's long discontinued Jun 11 10:58:56 The Neo900 will do it but I cant buy one of those Jun 11 10:59:11 Until such a thing exists, my current N900 is going to be my phone of choice :) Jun 11 10:59:22 mickeyl: oh, I thought you meant the CleanHardware thing Jun 11 10:59:24 jonwil: apart from the gta04 boards (with their known limitations) and the yet-to-be-revealed purism thing, I don't think there is anything. Jun 11 10:59:35 pabs3: no, sorry, meant the postmarketOS Jun 11 10:59:38 mickeyl: it is an Alpine Linux derivative Jun 11 11:00:08 so Linux without the GNU Jun 11 11:00:45 pabs3: pretty good. So that would imply a reproducible build with . Jun 11 11:01:22 all i want is a kernel and a barebones user land with ssh. Jun 11 11:01:23 theoretically, but I'm not sure they are working on deterministic builds yet Jun 11 11:01:53 I guess they would benefit from Debian/etc's work at reproducible-builds.org though Jun 11 11:02:22 jonwil: the postmarketOS post mentions someone using mainline Linux on Nexus 5 Jun 11 11:03:34 I didn't even think you COULD run a proper linux stack on any of the mobile-phone targeted Snapdragon parts due to all the required binary blobs for drivers etc. Jun 11 11:04:03 he only had serial console initially :) Jun 11 11:04:27 freedreno means you can get graphics though Jun 11 11:06:04 There are only 3 things that will get me to give up my N900. First is if something happens to it that causes it to become permanently unusable (and based on past experiences, that wont happen short of a hardware failure). Second is if I can no longer use it on my cellular carrier. And third is if someone releases a phone that is genuinely better. Jun 11 11:06:30 tough requirements ;) Jun 11 11:06:43 I can tell you that its pretty hard to kill an N900 though Jun 11 11:06:57 i have one here sitting and waiting for a neo900 board… Jun 11 11:07:06 I came close when I accidentally flashed a new set of kernel modules without flashing the matching kernel. Jun 11 11:07:14 the Gemini PDA looks interesting, not sure about software stuff though. https://www.planetcom.co.uk/ Jun 11 11:07:25 It ended up at a point where it couldn't boot far enough to charge the battery due to the broken kernel Jun 11 11:07:47 And it didn't have enough charge to boot into flasher mode so I could load RescueOS Jun 11 11:07:53 did they not add a circuit for "dumb-and-slow" charging mdoe? Jun 11 11:07:59 s/mdoe/mode/ Jun 11 11:08:00 mickeyl meant: did they not add a circuit for "dumb-and-slow" charging mode? Jun 11 11:08:06 Even then I was able to bring it back to life thanks to an external battery charger Jun 11 11:08:45 Got enough charge in the battery, booted rescueos, figured out how to get WiFi enabled on rescueos and was then able to reinstall the stock kernel modules and get the phone booting again. Jun 11 11:09:03 quite an adventure Jun 11 11:09:23 pabs3: hardware looks nice. stack is an interesting question though Jun 11 11:09:39 hopefully they're prepared for different keyboard layouts Jun 11 11:10:18 they must be, they have a lot of them :) Jun 11 11:10:23 bit expensive though Jun 11 11:11:13 Linux as "secondary boot option" doesn't make me pretty excited though, since that means the emphasis is on Android (which is probably a good strategy if you want to sell the device) Jun 11 11:11:46 The features I require in order to consider a phone as being "better than my current N900": Jun 11 11:14:21 1.Complete separation between the cellular modem and the main AP like the N900 has (its physically impossible for anyone to access the root filesystem, the microphone, the speakers or the main RAM of an N900 via any expoits/backdoors/remote things that may exist in the closed cellular radio firmware) Jun 11 11:16:46 pabs3: shipping is soon (if they can meet mid-june this year), very interesting to see what they actually deliver. price is steep though. Jun 11 11:17:19 2.No locks on the main AP software. I should be able to replace the kernel and any userspace software if I want to (the PowerVR GPU drivers may be proprietary but there is nothing forcing me to use those or any other blob. Jun 11 11:22:17 I think the biggest problem is that its nearly impossible to get a device with a separate cellular radio anymore because is a billion times easier to just throw in some Snapdragon crap that has everything in the one SoC and use the billion different blobs Qualcomm provides you with. Jun 11 11:25:34 *nod* Jun 11 11:26:05 throw in a blob firmware and you can not be sure what the silicon is doing under your back Jun 11 11:27:05 but since the average user does not care, this is the road the manufacturers are going. Jun 11 11:27:29 plus it's cheaper than the discrete AP+BB CPUs Jun 11 11:28:14 isn't that how dumphones used to work? Jun 11 11:29:11 the dumbphones I know did do the same, albeit somewhat vice versa. Their baseband CPU had enough features to drive a small display and some buttons. Jun 11 11:35:47 I worked for Motorola doing software development many years ago when the original RAZR V3 was considered state-of-the-art (6 months of paid work that also counted as a university unit) and the phones I was working on had a single ARM core and some sort of DSP to help with the cellular stuff. Jun 11 11:36:02 God the software stack on those things was garbage. Jun 11 11:36:06 hehe Jun 11 11:37:00 I really liked the EZX stack. It's A PITY (and whenever I'm remembering I get really angry) that they didn't open that for 3rdparty development. It was solid and wide-spread and they had a bunch of nice devices in various form factors. Jun 11 11:37:39 * mickeyl still has a sweet spot for Qt/Embedded Jun 11 11:39:08 there was OpenEZX Jun 11 11:39:42 My first phone (bought when I was working for Motorola although bought from a store and not through Motorola or anything) was a Motorola e378i (which was one of those weird things that ran some weird westernized flavor of that Japanese iMode thing including weird Java apps) Jun 11 11:40:08 Then I moved to a Motorola L6 which ran a more conventional Java J2ME setup Jun 11 11:40:36 Then to a Z6 which ran the Motorola MAGX platform (the successor to EZX) Jun 11 11:40:40 Then after that to the N900 Jun 11 11:40:41 pabs3: I know, I was part of that. But it took us years to find out how to overcome the Baseband-shuts-down-when-not-properly-initialized and by the time we worked out a 2.6 kernel, everyone else had moved on *sigh* Jun 11 11:41:57 and Openmoko, which was supposed to be a bit like "EZX, done right, ergo, open" never reached even a fraction of the EZX hardware quality. Jun 11 11:42:33 And when my N900 failed (due to the aformentioned kernel module mistake) I bought the cheapest thing I could find that worked with my carrier so I could keep in touch with people until my N900 was back up (its some LG Android thing that is sitting in a drawer unused and un-powered now) Jun 11 11:42:57 Oh yeah the other thing that's a must have on any replacement for my N900 is a hardware keyboard Jun 11 11:43:21 The N900 has the best keyboard of any device I have ever seen Jun 11 11:43:22 jonwil: so lets all buy the gemini PDA and create a great OS. that might solve your requirements ;) Jun 11 11:45:51 The Gemini doesn't suit me either, I like the way I can have the N900 closed and use it like a touchscreen candybar and only open the keyboard if I need to type things. Jun 11 11:46:19 But my N900 keeps working so the lack of a suitable replacement isn't a problem at this point. Jun 11 11:47:13 * pabs3 thought N900 USB had issues with physically breaking Jun 11 11:47:57 Mine still works even after all the stress its been under. Jun 11 11:48:09 So yeah its good, no problems there **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Jun 12 03:00:04 2018