**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Dec 01 02:59:58 2006
Dec 01 03:27:35 <myren> i dont think web2.0 is about standards
Dec 01 03:27:56 <cephdon> hehe, no I meant that its about a new concept in how to make it all work.
Dec 01 03:28:04 <myren> web 2.0 is social, but its still a largely centralized system
Dec 01 03:29:05 <myren> theres a single point of presence running a network of data
Dec 01 03:29:09 <myren> really the data itself needs to be networked
Dec 01 03:29:27 * CoreDump|home thinks web2.0 is mostly a buzzword but that's just him
Dec 01 03:29:39 <myren> our concepts of identity are still really weak, thats a very necessary first step for better distributed systems
Dec 01 03:29:43 <cephdon> what would you need in order to accomplish a truely decentralized system?
Dec 01 03:29:45 <myren> SAML will help solve that at some point
Dec 01 03:29:51 <cephdon> CoreDump|home you may be right. 
Dec 01 03:30:10 <cephdon> sounds like you want the 'NET'
Dec 01 03:30:35 <cephdon> plug in and jump between processing nodes in a simulated 3d universe?
Dec 01 03:31:12 <myren> the 3d virtual worlds thing is seperate in my mind, but yes
Dec 01 03:31:39 <myren> your identity is some root domain, hell, myren.geocities.com could  by my identity
Dec 01 03:31:47 <cephdon> do you think the technology of today could support it?
Dec 01 03:31:51 <myren> and all my computing resources stem from that root identity
Dec 01 03:31:54 <myren> oh yes
Dec 01 03:32:05 <cephdon> one giant mesh network...
Dec 01 03:32:20 <cephdon> constantly being rebuilt and sharing resources globally?
Dec 01 03:32:33 <myren> well, the infrasturcutre is largely irrelevant.  the current internet is a perfectly acceptable series of tubes.
Dec 01 03:32:41 <myren> the transport infrastructure
Dec 01 03:32:46 <cephdon> lol  not trucks.. right?
Dec 01 03:32:49 <myren> yup
Dec 01 03:33:13 <myren> the conceptualization of resources needs to be different
Dec 01 03:33:32 <myren> i personally think object oriented systems would be a good representation of resources
Dec 01 03:33:54 <myren> although we'd need much better runtimes to support our objects
Dec 01 03:34:05 <cephdon> do you think any other project currently publicized (sp?)  has the same description as what you are conceptualizing?
Dec 01 03:34:09 <myren> Naked Objects is what its been called before
Dec 01 03:34:25 <myren> Naked Objects Platform was an old attempt.  i liked Lucas Cardelli's Mobile Ambient's concept.
Dec 01 03:34:29 <myren> the idea at large is
Dec 01 03:34:40 <myren> you need a coordination platform to string together a network of resources
Dec 01 03:35:25 <cephdon> right....
Dec 01 03:35:37 <myren> coordination platforms have been talked up and down
Dec 01 03:36:30 <myren> tuple spaces were one of the earliest incarnations
Dec 01 03:36:31 <myren> really whats needed is a better object model,
Dec 01 03:36:43 <myren> something you can continually modify at runtime
Dec 01 03:36:56 <myren> and yet still be addressable at runtime
Dec 01 03:37:07 <myren> erm, addressable from other places
Dec 01 03:37:28 <myren> that bespeaks the need for concurrency models
Dec 01 03:38:05 <myren> basically the entire infrastructure we're using is useless
Dec 01 03:38:14 <cephdon> hehe
Dec 01 03:38:42 <cephdon> maybe thats why it never took off so far.
Dec 01 03:39:17 <myren> distributed research was chugging along just fine
Dec 01 03:39:26 <myren> it was never really glamorous, never achieved any killer apps
Dec 01 03:39:34 <myren> but it was always slowly moving forwards
Dec 01 03:39:38 <myren> until the web happened
Dec 01 03:40:03 <myren> and people dropped their shit and ran as fast as they could towards selling dogfood online.
Dec 01 03:40:21 <cephdon> hahaha
Dec 01 03:40:36 <myren> i guess enterprise service busses, esb's, are probably the closest to what i'm talking about
Dec 01 03:40:42 <cephdon> I think I do pretty well selling dog food.. actually....
Dec 01 03:40:53 <myren> so does one of our clients.
Dec 01 03:41:01 <cephdon> (thats a joke on my part.)
Dec 01 03:41:07 <myren> unfortuantely its not, on my part.
Dec 01 03:42:19 <myren> ok, there's only a few axioms required for distributed computing
Dec 01 03:42:29 <myren> resources need to be addressable, you need a way of talking to resources.
Dec 01 03:42:42 <myren> not a way of talking to them,
Dec 01 03:42:46 <cephdon> many ways already created can fill that role.
Dec 01 03:42:56 <myren> a way of finding out where to talk to them
Dec 01 03:43:08 <myren> sure, dns works just fine.  URL's are sufficient.
Dec 01 03:43:29 <myren> frak, i used to remember this a lot better.  :/
Dec 01 03:43:36 <cephdon> hehe.
Dec 01 03:43:49 <cephdon> I am waiting for the next axiom.
Dec 01 03:43:52 <cephdon> ;-)
Dec 01 03:44:08 <myren> i'm pulling out reference material
Dec 01 03:45:59 <myren> you need service discovery to enumerate what you can do on other systems
Dec 01 03:46:44 <myren> there's a bunch of hogwash requirements like "fault tolerant" and "scalable" and other jibberish that basically means "works on a network"
Dec 01 03:47:00 <myren> really though its just a decoupling of systems
Dec 01 03:47:17 <myren> theres no reason the systematic representation of your mouse needs to be tied to your computer
Dec 01 03:47:29 <myren> its perfectly reasonable to pipe that data to some other location
Dec 01 03:47:39 <cephdon> a la X
Dec 01 03:47:41 <myren> (i failed to find the two papers i was looking for)
Dec 01 03:47:48 <cephdon> ahh
Dec 01 03:48:15 <myren> yes and no.  x allows you that network capability, but thats scripted as a part of the protocol.
Dec 01 03:48:27 <myren> X is still a huge application compiled from a lot of systems
Dec 01 03:48:34 <myren> and does not change its behavior at runtime
Dec 01 03:49:08 <myren> it lacks the componentization of a real distributed system
Dec 01 03:49:22 <myren> drop in a mouse object onto your display system and that mouse object becomes a new cursor on the screen
Dec 01 03:49:36 <myren> the mouse is a resource
Dec 01 03:49:38 <myren> the display is a resource
Dec 01 03:49:50 <myren> and the relationship between resources is constantly redefined at runtime
Dec 01 03:50:02 <myren> thats the heart of distributed systems, componentization into logical pieces.
Dec 01 03:50:10 <myren> into resources
Dec 01 03:50:29 <cephdon> so could you then use the display at a remote location somehow in addition to your own?
Dec 01 03:50:42 <myren> yup
Dec 01 03:51:02 <myren> currently we have to build protocols to define all these funcitonalities
Dec 01 03:51:07 <myren> build a protocol called VNC to pipe the data
Dec 01 03:51:37 <myren> but really the distributed infrastructure should take care of the network for you
Dec 01 03:51:55 <myren> the display should just have to know it is a display, and you just need to know you can output to it
Dec 01 03:52:04 <myren> because its just another display resource
Dec 01 03:52:16 <cephdon> basically, (adding in the obvious security bits) you would enumerate all of the available resources at the remote location and chooses which ones you want to consume... there would also be a discovery for resources you need which are not available to you now or at the current remote location so that you could make use of them... published as it were.
Dec 01 03:52:58 <cephdon> If you need a printer but you dont have one.. and kinkos down the street does.. they publish it and you can use it.. 
Dec 01 03:53:11 <cephdon> then you just have to pay to get your printing..
Dec 01 03:53:18 <cephdon> is that about right?
Dec 01 03:53:53 <cephdon> same with CPU resources, memory.. disk storage..
Dec 01 03:54:46 <myren> yes yes
Dec 01 03:55:23 <cephdon> sounds like JINI or at least I think thats what it was called... *googling..
Dec 01 03:56:31 <cephdon> http://www.sun.com/software/jini/
Dec 01 14:00:34 <slubman> hi
Dec 01 14:26:08 <darmou>  /msg NickServ IDENTIFY sm0a9f4
Dec 01 14:28:36 <jannic> darmou: you should change your passphrase *g*
Dec 01 14:30:29 * so_solid_moo always does his /msg in the server window, not a channel
Dec 01 14:31:02 <timtimred> and that was such a good password too.
Dec 01 14:31:59 * xkr47 always does his /msg in the appropriate query window
Dec 01 14:32:04 <xkr47> so I don't use /msg :)
Dec 01 14:32:42 * Stephmw always lets his IRC client handle this, so no typing at all
Dec 01 15:02:38 * buz agrees
Dec 01 17:11:41 <TimRiker> micky|stomachFlu: apt used to be here? did this channel used to have another name?
Dec 01 17:11:57 <TimRiker> I don't see #openmoko on apt's list of channels.
Dec 01 17:12:13 <koen|gprs_> TimRiker: freenode got upset bigtime a while ago
Dec 01 17:12:46 <koen|gprs_> lots of channels 'disappeared' for a while
Dec 01 17:12:48 <TimRiker> koen|gprs: ok, but that would not effect the config for apt.
Dec 01 17:13:23 <TimRiker> it might bump the bot off channels, but it would not remove any from the config files.
Dec 01 17:13:36 <koen|gprs_> ah, right
Dec 01 17:17:42 <TimRiker> botmail for Micky I don't see #openmoko on apt's channel list. apt used to be there? has the channel been forwarded from some other name?
Dec 01 17:17:48 <TimRiker> ~botmail for Micky I don't see #openmoko on apt's channel list. apt used to be there? has the channel been forwarded from some other name?
Dec 01 17:17:57 <TimRiker> silly bot...
Dec 01 17:18:08 <TimRiker> or really silly me, apt's not here. duh.
Dec 01 17:19:42 <micky|stomachFlu> hey tim
Dec 01 17:20:00 <koen|gprs_> TimRiker: http://ibot.rikers.org/%23openmoko/
Dec 01 17:20:02 <timtim> hallo
Dec 01 17:20:11 <micky|stomachFlu> no, there was no forward. you "invited" him a couple of days ago but now he's gone
Dec 01 17:20:37 <koen|gprs_> he was here from 20061117 thru 20061126
Dec 01 17:21:19 <timtim> woh, two tims.
Dec 01 17:22:08 <micky|stomachFlu> TimRiker: see http://ibot.rikers.org/%23openmoko/20061116.html.gz :))
Dec 01 17:27:37 <koen|gprs> micky|stomachFlu: feeling a bit better?
Dec 01 17:28:38 * koen|gprs wonders how many FIC people will be at FOSDEM
Dec 01 17:37:39 <TimRiker> wild. don't know why the chan info did not get saved, the log shows me saving it.
Dec 01 17:37:46 <micky|stomachFlu> yeah
Dec 01 17:37:54 <TimRiker> apt: save
Dec 01 17:37:54 <apt> saved user and chan files
Dec 01 17:38:02 <micky|stomachFlu> wb apt
Dec 01 17:38:08 <TimRiker> apt: really really save
Dec 01 17:38:10 <TimRiker> :)
Dec 01 17:38:10 <micky|stomachFlu> hehe
Dec 01 17:39:04 <TimRiker> k. might have thought he was banned here and removed the channel or something like that. no other channels look to have been effected. wierd.
Dec 01 17:41:44 <mickeyl> thanks TimRiker. will pester you again when he's leaving next time :)
Dec 01 17:42:42 <myren> apt: get install sweetness
Dec 01 17:42:57 <myren> apt: get install awsome phone platform
Dec 01 17:43:06 <myren> bored, pardon.
Dec 01 17:43:13 <mickeyl> heh
Dec 01 17:53:59 <TimRiker> apt: apt-get install myren 
Dec 01 17:54:17 <TimRiker> apt: rootshell apt-get install myren 
Dec 01 17:54:19 <apt> root@blootbot:~# apt-get install myren     bash: apt-get install myren: command not found
Dec 01 17:54:21 <myren> myren online and ready to kick ass
Dec 01 17:54:40 <myren> oh mannnnn, you must be kidding
Dec 01 17:54:56 <myren> apt: rootshell $((2*4))
Dec 01 17:54:59 <apt> root@blootbot:~# $((2*4))     bash: $((2*4)): command not found
Dec 01 17:55:01 <myren> apt: rootshell echo $((2*4))
Dec 01 17:55:03 <apt> root@blootbot:~# echo $((2*4))     bash: echo $((2*4)): command not found
Dec 01 17:55:09 <myren> ok i feel better
Dec 01 17:58:10 <cw666> i've seen nothing about preorders thus far, or did i just miss some announcement?
Dec 01 17:58:54 <myren> you have indeed seen nothing
Dec 01 17:59:35 * cw666 taps his foot impatiently
Dec 01 17:59:40 <TimRiker> hehe
Dec 01 17:59:48 <TimRiker> ~literal rootshell
Dec 01 17:59:51 <apt> "rootshell" is "<reply> root@blootbot:~#"
Dec 01 18:00:04 <TimRiker> ~literal cmd: rootshell (.*)
Dec 01 18:00:16 <TimRiker> ~literal cmd: rootshell (.*?)
Dec 01 18:00:18 <apt> "cmd: rootshell (.*?)" is "($1): <reply> root@blootbot:~# $1     bash: $1: command not found"
Dec 01 18:00:30 <TimRiker> it does not really do anything...
Dec 01 18:00:38 <myren> thats good.  :)
Dec 01 18:00:38 <mickeyl> hehe
Dec 01 18:00:39 <mickeyl> honey trap
Dec 01 18:00:44 <TimRiker> :)
Dec 01 18:01:10 <myren> apt: rootshell rm -rf /
Dec 01 18:01:13 <apt> root@blootbot:~# rm -rf /     bash: rm -rf /: command not found
Dec 01 18:01:27 <TimRiker> should add one that parses the first item off...
Dec 01 18:01:46 <myren> what is it about bots that is so fun?
Dec 01 18:01:58 <TimRiker> apt: rootshell $1 $2 is <reply> root@blootbot:~# $1     bash: $1: command not found
Dec 01 18:02:00 <apt> root@blootbot:~# $1 $2 is <reply> root@blootbot:~# $1     bash: $1: command not found     bash: $1 $2 is <reply> root@blootbot:~# $1     bash: $1: command not found: command not found
Dec 01 18:02:04 <TimRiker> hehe...
Dec 01 18:02:26 <prpplague> TimRiker: hey, wmat need a tarball of the elinux wiki
Dec 01 18:02:39 <prpplague> TimRiker: you fix him up?
Dec 01 18:02:50 <TimRiker> sure.
Dec 01 18:03:04 <prpplague> TimRiker: greetings btw
Dec 01 18:07:53 <TimRiker> :)
Dec 01 18:08:25 <TimRiker> making one up now. event log and everything... probably much more in there than he really needs.
Dec 01 18:12:55 <prpplague> TimRiker: yea, better safe than sorry
Dec 01 18:16:33 <myren> whats elinunx?
Dec 01 18:17:43 <prpplague> myren: http://www.elinux.org/wiki/
Dec 01 18:18:04 <prpplague> myren: soon to be merged as the basis of a CELF sponsored wiki on embedded linux 
Dec 01 18:20:39 <myren> i've been looking for a da vinci platform
Dec 01 18:20:52 <myren> something consumer but hackable
Dec 01 18:20:57 <myren> cause the eval kit is fucking $1500
Dec 01 18:21:05 <myren> thats not even the DEV kit, just the eval kit
Dec 01 18:21:19 <myren> i'd settle for an omap3 when they come out.  ;)
Dec 01 18:21:29 <prpplague> myren: TI isn't exactly known for the readily available dev kits and cost of them
Dec 01 18:21:48 <myren> they seem to be available
Dec 01 18:21:56 <myren> it looks like you can just purchase them on the website now
Dec 01 18:22:33 <prpplague> myren: yea, well, just try an order one
Dec 01 18:22:44 <myren> right.  :)
Dec 01 20:25:32 <malverian> Any news regarding builtin bluetooth for the 1973?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Dec 02 02:59:57 2006