**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Dec 04 02:59:57 2006
Dec 04 03:43:05 <edwardocallaghan> Hi all
Dec 04 03:43:19 <edwardocallaghan> This IRC is filling up fast
Dec 04 03:45:57 <mindCrime_> yep
Dec 04 03:50:56 <edwardocallaghan> Hi
Dec 04 03:51:14 <edwardocallaghan> Just look for a SPARC station on ebay :D
Dec 04 04:00:42 <edwardocallaghan> Everyone
Dec 04 04:01:01 <edwardocallaghan> I got something that needs to be passed on to the dev of this phone
Dec 04 04:01:12 <edwardocallaghan> Are there any core dev around?
Dec 04 04:16:39 <edwardocallaghan> http://www.marvell.com/products/wireless/embedded.jsp WiFi with open drivers
Dec 04 08:36:16 <CM> In case anyone missed Haralds blog post: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/12/04/#20061204-gsm_architecture
Dec 04 08:43:49 <hrw|work> thx
Dec 04 09:46:54 <stefan_schmidt> hi
Dec 04 09:47:05 <SeriousGuy> hi
Dec 04 10:17:15 <bedboi> hi there
Dec 04 10:25:41 <mickeyl> morning
Dec 04 10:28:12 <rwhitby> hey mickeyl 
Dec 04 10:28:18 <mickeyl> hey rwhitby!
Dec 04 10:28:51 <rwhitby> the OpenProtium commercial NAS guys have just released their source code and binary  www.openprotium.org
Dec 04 10:29:06 <Genesis> yo
Dec 04 10:29:11 <rwhitby> they'll be folding it back into OE as the next task
Dec 04 10:29:13 <mickeyl> rwhitby: very cool.
Dec 04 10:29:25 <mickeyl> rwhitby: excellent. what's the best hardware to run openprotium on?
Dec 04 10:29:41 <rwhitby> they're using the Iomega StorCenter
Dec 04 10:30:10 * mickeyl checks some prices
Dec 04 10:30:24 <rwhitby> http://www.openprotium.org/tiki-index.php?page_ref_id=42
Dec 04 10:30:53 <Genesis> what the apps that have been choosen for GPS maps ??
Dec 04 10:32:20 <mickeyl> Genesis: there's none yet. 
Dec 04 10:32:39 <Genesis> have you look after ww2d ?
Dec 04 10:34:36 <Genesis> nevermind i'll check that after january
Dec 04 10:34:59 <mickeyl> well, there won't be mapping software from the start. i think this is something the community will work on
Dec 04 10:35:09 <koen> maemo-mapper-nohildon :)
Dec 04 10:35:27 <mickeyl> yeah, but that requires a data connection
Dec 04 10:36:02 <koen> every mapping app does
Dec 04 10:36:09 <Genesis> no site project for it :(
Dec 04 10:36:14 <koen> you need to get maps onto the device somehow
Dec 04 10:36:34 <Genesis> with ww2d and the other you can cache the base
Dec 04 10:36:34 <koen> there's a perl script to download maps for maemo-mapper 'offline'
Dec 04 10:36:36 <stefan_schmidt> koen: You can cache some before you leave home...
Dec 04 10:36:46 <koen> stefan_schmidt: that's what I do
Dec 04 10:37:05 <koen> stefan_schmidt: but since I have a phone that actually works now, I can download it on the fly now :)
Dec 04 10:37:10 <stefan_schmidt> I think mickeyl means data connection while using it, right?
Dec 04 10:37:21 <mickeyl> yeah
Dec 04 10:38:06 <mickeyl> rwhitby: so the main benefit of a storcenter compared to a slug is that the drive is internal hence connected via IDE?
Dec 04 10:38:31 <rwhitby> yeah, like a NAS100d or a DSMG600
Dec 04 10:38:54 <mickeyl> i see. well for my tasks my slug is still good enough :)
Dec 04 10:38:55 <rwhitby> It's also a Freescale PPC device, rather than an ARM IXP if that makes any difference to you - more RAM too I think.
Dec 04 10:40:05 <mickeyl> i think what would make a difference would be going to a fanless x86 PC in a small box or so
Dec 04 10:41:32 <greentux> ~seen lrg
Dec 04 10:41:47 <apt> lrg <n=liam@59.164.100.131> was last seen on IRC in channel #oe, 4d 14h 2m 1s ago, saying: 'pH5: maybe'.
Dec 04 10:42:30 <xorAxAx> ~seen xorAxAx 
Dec 04 10:42:33 <apt> xoraxax is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 32 messages. Is idling for 3s, last said: '~seen xorAxAx '.
Dec 04 10:45:24 <koen> mickey|lunch: logfs is pretty neat stuff, I can't wait to ditch jffs2
Dec 04 10:51:29 <Genesis> has logfs better performance ?
Dec 04 10:52:22 <koen> it doesn't take eons to mount
Dec 04 10:52:32 <koen> and doesn't consume as much ram
Dec 04 10:52:46 <Genesis> greate
Dec 04 10:52:52 <Genesis> -e , i need it :)
Dec 04 10:53:02 <Genesis> i add that to our plan.
Dec 04 10:53:31 <Tali> how stable is logfs now?
Dec 04 10:55:34 <koen> it's like reiserfs a few years ago
Dec 04 10:55:53 <koen> a change to the on-disk storage format every now and then
Dec 04 10:57:41 <xorAxAx> hopefully the core devs wont be arrested by the police :)
Dec 04 10:58:17 <Genesis> :/
Dec 04 10:58:35 <Genesis> reiser is not open :*/
Dec 04 11:36:38 <zecke> LaF0rge: hey, how will you handle power management of the modem?
Dec 04 11:37:18 <koen> hey zecke 
Dec 04 11:59:37 <LaF0rge> zecke: just wait for the code ;)
Dec 04 12:02:35 <zecke> LaF0rge: I have had a  bad experience with a leading provider of green phone software for linux
Dec 04 12:03:43 <LaF0rge> zecke: basically the AP gets woken up by characters arriving on the serial port from the BP
Dec 04 12:03:52 <LaF0rge> zecke: the BP does it's own power management
Dec 04 12:04:14 <zecke> LaF0rge: I only know Siemens Terminals and they have at least three different pm modi
Dec 04 12:04:42 <zecke> and it does make sense to switch them at least it did make sense for us
Dec 04 12:04:52 <zecke> anyway I don't want to distract you :)
Dec 04 12:43:27 <Tali> hello LaF0rge  :-)
Dec 04 14:46:01 <Eblis> hi
Dec 04 14:46:24 <Eblis> i've just heard about the upcoming neo1973 phone :)
Dec 04 14:46:31 <Eblis> you probably get these questions a lot here
Dec 04 14:46:39 <Eblis> any screenshots available ?
Dec 04 14:46:47 <Eblis> what development languages will it support ?
Dec 04 14:47:01 <koen> see openmoko.com
Dec 04 14:47:15 <mikesh> Eblis: screenshots are here http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html
Dec 04 14:47:34 <Eblis> koen: i was looking at that but it's pretty small :)
Dec 04 14:47:36 <Eblis> mikesh: thanks
Dec 04 14:48:49 <Eblis> will it be available in europe in january 2007 ?
Dec 04 14:50:02 <Eblis> is there any posibility to support mono (.net mobile) ?
Dec 04 14:50:22 <bedboi> Eblis: i think it should as it works on h5455 
Dec 04 14:50:30 <bedboi> at least i tired it some months ago
Dec 04 14:50:35 <Eblis> no idea what that means :)
Dec 04 14:54:08 <morricone> how is the phone connected to the internet besides GPRS? is this going to be done via the usb port?
Dec 04 14:57:48 <lkcl_work> http://www.handhelds.org/hypermail/kernel-discuss/current/2218.html - phone audio routing infrastructure plan
Dec 04 14:58:02 <lkcl_work> http://www.handhelds.org/hypermail/kernel-discuss/current/2218.html - phone audio routing infrastructure plan
Dec 04 14:58:24 <koen> lkcl_work: you mean the plan that essentially duplicates ASoC
Dec 04 14:59:39 <lkcl_work> it does?  cool!  then i don't have to write it _at all_ great!
Dec 04 15:00:29 <mindCrime_> /nick mindCrime_
Dec 04 15:00:32 <lkcl_work> btw, koen: don't start with the negativity again.  you still haven't apologised for the last time you wasted mine, yours and everyone else's time being negative
Dec 04 15:01:09 <aloril> has this been talked yet: when you can't talk in phone turn silent mode and and when 'talking' on phone you type your reply and text->speech then converts it to audio which is then sent over line like it was coming from microphone?
Dec 04 15:01:11 <hrw|work> I like to see how people reinvent wheel
Dec 04 15:01:59 * mickey|devel swings the virtual club to threaten people to be nice in this channel
Dec 04 15:02:31 <lkcl_work> is there any information _other_ than this http://www.rpsys.net/openzaurus/patches/alsa/info.html on ASoc ?
Dec 04 15:02:40 <lkcl_work> thanks mickey
Dec 04 15:03:07 <mickey|devel> iirc there's a page at opensource.wolfsoncodecs.com as well
Dec 04 15:03:27 <mickey|devel> ASoC will be the root of the Neo1973 audio infrastructure
Dec 04 15:03:32 <mickey|devel> s/root//
Dec 04 15:03:32 <apt> mickey|devel meant: ASoC will be the  of the Neo1973 audio infrastructure
Dec 04 15:03:37 <lkcl_work> koen for some reason which he won't explain seems to want to be extremely and unnecessarily agressive towards me, which is totally unproductive
Dec 04 15:03:44 <lkcl_work> ok ta i'll take a look.
Dec 04 15:04:00 <koen> I don't like repeating myself
Dec 04 15:04:02 <mickey|devel> bear with him and us. our diplomatic skills are lacking
Dec 04 15:04:16 <koen> so if I say "read haralds reply" I mean what I say
Dec 04 15:04:49 <lkcl_work> i'm interested to know if ASoC has easy-to-access audio routing/switching and by easy i mean from userspace and not having to load and use libasound.
Dec 04 15:05:25 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: i think using alsa to expose the devices is the Right Thing
Dec 04 15:05:40 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: other wise its just YAAI
Dec 04 15:05:43 <lkcl_work> to http://www.handhelds.org/hypermail/kernel-discuss/current/2218.html ? there isn't one that i can see, koen - sorry
Dec 04 15:06:07 * robtaylor nods, he wants to read haralds reply too  :)
Dec 04 15:06:25 <koen> lkcl_work: no, to your totally misinformed rant about mux_cli
Dec 04 15:06:53 <lkcl_work> robtaylor: you reckon so?  ... i'd figured that echo 0x001 > /sys/class/somewhere/sounrouting would be a _much_ easier way than linking say a bluetooth application to libasound.
Dec 04 15:07:36 * mickey|devel suggests asking on alsa mailing list where the ASoC mastermindds probably are subscribed
Dec 04 15:07:43 <mickey|devel> or asking them on IRC directly
Dec 04 15:07:53 <aloril> twiddler2 would be useful with above text->speech idea and of course in general too: http://www.handykey.com/
Dec 04 15:07:53 * lkcl_work arse.  proxy @ work has cut me off from that http://opensource.wolfsoncodecs.com site, i'll have to check it from home, later.  ta for the link, mickey, anyway.
Dec 04 15:08:06 <mickey|devel> aloril: I still don't like OSS speech synthesis audio quality. 
Dec 04 15:10:38 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: well, personally, i'd like to see the platform for embedded devices look as much like the desktop platform as possible
Dec 04 15:10:46 <mickey|devel> and also great speech synthesis seems to eat up a _lot_ o fCPU
Dec 04 15:11:13 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: introducing new interfaces for applications to use should always be looked at in this context
Dec 04 15:11:55 <robtaylor> after all, i have much the same hardware on my desktop machine, bluetooth audio, normal headset, built in speaker, gsm card
Dec 04 15:12:17 <robtaylor> to software wanting to use these services, there should be a common api between desktop an mobile
Dec 04 15:13:12 <koen> mickey|devel: or a small bit of DSP ;)
Dec 04 15:13:18 <mickey|devel> absolutely
Dec 04 15:13:31 <mickey|devel> DSP would help. I'd LOVE to see an open source device with a good open DSP
Dec 04 15:13:48 <aloril> it would still be option that no other phone has as far as I know
Dec 04 15:13:49 <mickey|devel> (you see... not like the 770)
Dec 04 15:14:07 <koen> the TI DaVinci is looking pretty good, but I'll hold out for the next hardware rev
Dec 04 15:14:35 * mickey|devel hoping FIC can convince some DSP maker to open up for 2nd or 3rd hw rev
Dec 04 15:14:58 <Genesis> why not an fpga ?
Dec 04 15:15:17 * koen looks at http://linuxtogo.org/~koen/maemo/unpacked/osso-dsp-loader_0.3.0-1.tar.gz
Dec 04 15:15:18 <LaF0rge> genesis: getting a free dsp compiler is possible, and you can program it in asm
Dec 04 15:15:26 <LaF0rge> getting free software support for any fpga is impossible.
Dec 04 15:15:58 <koen> LaF0rge: the nios softcore looks pretty sweet
Dec 04 15:16:06 <koen> LaF0rge: but not suited for a phone of course
Dec 04 15:16:17 <lkcl_work> robtaylor: i think you're right.
Dec 04 15:17:56 <lkcl_work> LaF0rge: once you're onto FPGAs then you're into vhdl and yes there exists free software vhdl compilers and simulators etc.  but yes, it's still a pile of pants.
Dec 04 15:19:01 <Genesis> we can add an fpga only for I/O & DSP stuff 
Dec 04 15:19:25 <Genesis> opencores is a good begin
Dec 04 15:19:58 <lkcl_work> robtaylor: the main difference between your desktop system and this phone architecture is the weird per-device rules about exclusivity on audio i/o.  on nearly every device that i know of except one or maybe two, audio _has_ to go to only one mic/speaker pair at a time
Dec 04 15:20:42 <lkcl_work> and it's the exceptions (himalaya being able to do simultaneous phone-call-and-record-phone-conversation) that will make life awkward for whatever-is-ultimately-used.
Dec 04 15:22:24 <lkcl_work> my message to kd@hh.org outlines a couple of nasty exceptions - bluetooth dropping out is the _really_ awkward one.  on wince it's handled manually.  you get a popup saying "the bluetooth audio device has wet itself. do you want to mop up after it or do you want to use speaker instead?"
Dec 04 15:23:58 <lkcl_work> and even that little popup application, robtaylor, would need to be linked to libasound, to do the audio switching, instead of f = open("/sys/class/soundrouting/state"); write(f, "%x", ....) close(f); - three lines of code.
Dec 04 15:24:53 <lkcl_work> of course, if alsa sound can be accessed just as easily, then it's a non-issue.
Dec 04 15:26:45 <robtaylor> mickey|devel: well, remeber that the OMAP dudes were saying they paln to open up their docs :)
Dec 04 15:27:44 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: well, the same exeptions still apply to desktops, so we need a good, common, way to deal with them
Dec 04 15:27:48 <mickey|devel> *nod* i heard about plans
Dec 04 15:27:51 <mickey|devel> but plans are just... plans
Dec 04 15:28:07 <robtaylor> mickey|devel: indeed.. how many times have we heard lip-service? :)
Dec 04 15:28:13 <mickey|devel> no kidding
Dec 04 15:28:26 <mickey|devel> "soon" being the most overused word in the past
Dec 04 15:28:35 * mickey|devel thinks of a certain company
Dec 04 15:28:51 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: i dont know alsa well enough to say wether its has cases for handling it, but i suspect it does
Dec 04 15:29:15 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: wether thats the right place is another matter
Dec 04 15:29:23 <lkcl_work> robtaylor: i heard from somebody that TI got rid of all but 5 of their 60-strong linux OMAP team
Dec 04 15:29:40 <robtaylor> maybe hal could be a good place for dealing with hardware based policy ;)
Dec 04 15:30:05 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: well if so, i've met 60% of thier team
Dec 04 15:30:37 <lkcl_work> robtaylor: oh, duh - of course.  ... then again, you see - that's _two_ bits of complex software, instead of three lines of code :)
Dec 04 15:31:08 <lkcl_work> robtaylor: it was (about TI) one of those throw-away rumours/comments that i could have heard wrong
Dec 04 15:31:42 <robtaylor> lkcl_work: *shrug* if you're building a platform, thats the kinda choices you have to make
Dec 04 15:32:11 <robtaylor> ideally the decision of which output device to use shouldn't generally be done by the app anyway
Dec 04 15:32:13 * lkcl_work tell me about it...
Dec 04 15:32:22 <robtaylor> its more a system/desktop wide policy
Dec 04 15:32:53 <robtaylor> but policy should definitly be in userspace :)
Dec 04 15:34:05 <aloril> my guess: using twiddler by using usb adapter should be possible? ( http://www.handykey.com/site/accessories.html ) or its not actually possible because specs say usb port is unpowered?
Dec 04 15:35:25 <aloril> or in general using external keyboard
Dec 04 15:35:26 <robtaylor> mickey|devel: its not got usb host has it?
Dec 04 15:35:40 <robtaylor> aloril: can't you get bluetooth twiddlers yet? :)
Dec 04 15:36:40 <mickey|devel> robtaylor: it has usb host, but without power supply
Dec 04 15:36:54 <mickey|devel> robtaylor: switchable host/gadget using one shared port
Dec 04 15:36:59 <robtaylor> mickey|devel: ahh
Dec 04 15:37:17 <robtaylor> aloril: you might find http://216.239.59.104/search?q=cache:Wxrj-ff0L7UJ:bender.c0rtex.com/~will/projects/bttwid/+twiddler+bluetooth&hl=en&lr=&strip=1 intersting (original page seems down)
Dec 04 15:38:18 <robtaylor> mickey|devel: so its a case of hacking a hub to provide power, like on the 770?
Dec 04 15:39:14 <mickey|devel> *nod*
Dec 04 15:39:22 <lkcl_work> would anyone else be kind enough to review this: http://www.pierrox.net/G500/20061106/linux-2.6.18.2-phe-g500.diff it's by pierrox, for the eten g500 wince mobile (gsm + sirf III gps)
Dec 04 15:40:45 <robtaylor> cgi:irc? lol
Dec 04 16:02:42 <aloril> robtaylor: I remember that page when I researched for possibility of using twiddler with ordinary mobile phone: I suspected it won't work unless phone supports external bluetooth keyboard and this is compatible with it; however with open phone that route is possibility too
Dec 04 16:04:40 <robtaylor> aloril: yeah, it uses bluez, so you should be able to use external keyboards
Dec 04 16:05:07 <robtaylor> aloril: also series 60 phones support bluetooth keybs
Dec 04 16:05:57 <aloril> robtaylor: ok, cool, thanks
Dec 04 16:40:59 * stefan_schmidt moves home. cu all
Dec 04 16:41:39 <dneary> hi
Dec 04 16:41:42 <dneary> Anyone about?
Dec 04 16:42:39 <koen> sure
Dec 04 16:45:14 <Genesis> bye 
Dec 04 16:45:29 <robtaylor> dneary: sup, homie? :)
Dec 04 16:46:01 <dneary> hi robtaylor
Dec 04 16:46:06 <dneary> hi koen
Dec 04 16:46:20 <dneary> robtaylor: Fancy meeting you here :)
Dec 04 16:46:43 <robtaylor> dneary: i was about to say the same :) how's wengo going?
Dec 04 16:46:59 <dneary> I was wondering if I might happen into someone here who'd be interested in attending a summit on free software collaboration over IP next April
Dec 04 16:47:10 <dneary> Wengo's going well
Dec 04 16:47:18 <dneary> It feels like an all you can eat buffet
Dec 04 16:47:25 <robtaylor> heh, cool :)
Dec 04 16:47:47 <dneary> You know you should just take a small plate of food and go back for more later, but you just can't help yourself from heaping food onto the plate
Dec 04 16:47:59 <robtaylor> heh
Dec 04 16:48:12 <robtaylor> bitton off more than you can chew then? :)
Dec 04 16:48:35 <dneary> robtaylor: Not at all
Dec 04 16:48:48 <dneary> Just munching systematically through a big heap of stuff
Dec 04 16:48:59 <robtaylor> dneary: good :) so, collaboration over IP? meaning patents?
Dec 04 16:49:20 <dneary> Communication over Internet Protocol
Dec 04 16:49:34 <robtaylor> ohh, thats more sensible :)
Dec 04 16:49:51 <dneary> IM, VoIP, generally other collaborative hacks like inkboard, abicollab, ...
Dec 04 16:49:55 <koen> IP over patents would be more fun ;)
Dec 04 16:50:08 <dneary> robtaylor: Yeah - when I said "collaboration" you were supposed to read "communication"
Dec 04 16:50:09 <robtaylor> ohhh, i see even more now. Of course i'd be interested :)
Dec 04 16:50:33 <dneary> robtaylor: You're working on OpenMoKo now?
Dec 04 16:50:36 <robtaylor> koen: lol, that'd be even slower than pidgeons :)
Dec 04 16:50:52 <robtaylor> dneary: noo, just had a few chats with Sean
Dec 04 16:51:03 <dneary> Ah, right
Dec 04 16:51:11 <dneary> what's his nick?
Dec 04 16:51:20 <robtaylor> don't think he ircs
Dec 04 16:51:31 <koen> and he's in japan the next 3 days
Dec 04 16:51:45 <robtaylor> maybe drop a mail to the mailing list, he certainly reads that
Dec 04 17:00:17 <dneary> robtaylor: I sent a mail to openmoko.com that should get him
Dec 04 17:00:23 <dneary> Thanks koen, rob
Dec 04 17:02:36 <robtaylor> dneary: btw, i'm seperated from collabora now, so you might want to send a mail to the telepathy list
Dec 04 17:03:03 <dneary> robtaylor: I was talking to rob mcqueen, so I had heard
Dec 04 17:03:21 <dneary> thanks for the info, though
Dec 04 17:03:23 <robtaylor> cool
Dec 04 17:03:29 <mickey|devel> oh sad to hear that. was that on your behalf?
Dec 04 17:04:01 <robtaylor> mickey|devel: umm, kinda a (difficult) mutual decision. I'm setting up a new consultancy atm
Dec 04 17:05:01 <robtaylor> dneary: i guess travis reitter would be interested, and the tomboy guys
Dec 04 17:17:25 <dneary> Night
Dec 04 17:17:41 <mickey|devel> g'night dneary
Dec 04 17:17:43 <dneary> robtaylor: Thanks for the hint for Travis - want to mention it to him?
Dec 04 17:19:31 <robtaylor> sure, got a date yet?
Dec 04 17:59:56 <noidd> I need to build a bluetooth morse paddle
Dec 04 17:59:56 <noidd> heh
Dec 04 18:00:01 <noidd> use that for data entry
Dec 05 00:32:21 <thedaniel> I note that early devices were to be shipped in mid-december to a select group of developers - does anyone know if these have or will soon go out?
Dec 05 00:44:26 <mickeyl> no idea, sorry
Dec 05 00:44:29 <mickeyl> g'night
Dec 05 01:25:56 <cephdon__> ok... how do I kick my other self?  My computer disconnected and IRC seems to think I am still here..
Dec 05 01:26:12 <cephdon__> i am not entirely sure that made sense...
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Dec 05 02:59:57 2006