**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jan 04 03:00:02 2007 Jan 04 03:49:25 So, it's January now. :) Any news on the hardware release? Some unspecified time mid-month? Jan 04 04:21:07 yet another idea: make neo work like twiddler ( http://www.handykey.com/site/twiddler2.html ) Jan 04 04:21:23 instead of qwerty keyboard on screen Jan 04 04:21:35 multitouch == multichord Jan 04 11:11:44 Is OpenMoko a working mobile phone? Jan 04 11:12:56 no, openmoko is software Jan 04 11:12:59 no, in many ways. First, it's not a phone, it's an OS platform to be run on one, and no, there's no working phone in the market yet that runs it Jan 04 11:13:03 the neo1973 is a mobile phone Jan 04 11:13:15 the first phone _should_ be available this month Jan 04 11:14:14 I see Jan 04 11:14:50 and the source code of all the device drivers for the devices in this phone will be available? Jan 04 11:15:39 from publically available information, there seems to be one exception: the AGPS chip needs a proprietary daemon program from the chip manufacturer Jan 04 11:15:52 the other stuff, yes, should get released with the phone with source Jan 04 11:16:20 * koen hopes the source will be released first Jan 04 11:16:31 the daemon is a user-space process? Jan 04 11:16:39 GoGi, as far as I've heard Jan 04 11:16:52 communicates via the AGPS chip through a serial interface Jan 04 11:17:06 s/via/with/ Jan 04 11:17:07 mjr meant: communicates with the AGPS chip through a serial interface Jan 04 11:17:24 oo, shiny Jan 04 11:17:43 s/shiny/annoying/ Jan 04 11:17:58 I do not know a lot about GSM and mobile phones (yet) Jan 04 11:18:00 yes, probably on the long run Jan 04 11:18:26 especially if apt it slow and you're typing in another window Jan 04 11:18:42 and apts response triggers the nick highlight Jan 04 11:20:02 what kind of development env is available for developing tools on a e.g. PC Jan 04 11:20:19 ? Jan 04 11:20:29 multiple Jan 04 11:20:32 is there something like QEmu that can simulate the neo1973? Jan 04 11:20:37 Xoo or openembedded Jan 04 11:23:52 where can I get technical information about the neo1973? Jan 04 11:24:07 see topic Jan 04 11:24:08 topic Jan 04 11:25:14 topic? Jan 04 11:25:17 ah Jan 04 11:26:18 hmh, it's an ARM system, which qemu can simulate, but would probably miss some peculiarities of the system... Jan 04 11:26:59 spesifically the integrated peripherals Jan 04 11:27:19 right Jan 04 11:27:19 so you can just use Xoo Jan 04 11:28:36 righto, that'd probably help somewhat Jan 04 11:28:51 now that I checked what it is :] Jan 04 11:28:59 The International Mobile Equipment Identity (IMEI) is a number unique to every GSM and UMTS mobile phone. Jan 04 11:29:13 Does the neo1973 have such a thing? Jan 04 11:29:24 yes, since it's a GSM phone Jan 04 11:32:07 (the IMEI will probably be embedded into the GSM chip, which is separate from the CPU running OpenMoko and hooked up with a serial interface Jan 04 11:42:08 serial interface of course Jan 04 11:59:34 so it is sure not to have bluetooth? Jan 04 12:00:03 nothing is sure Jan 04 12:00:06 * LaF0rge has one five prototypes with bluetooth here ;) Jan 04 12:00:17 but I'm not the product manager. Jan 04 12:00:53 *drool* Jan 04 12:01:00 well say that USB is the only connection I can have Jan 04 12:01:07 is there something like IP over USB? Jan 04 12:01:11 yes Jan 04 12:01:56 in fact I seem to recall something about the moko being able to simulate a USB network device to a computer it's hooked up to; LaF0rge, mind verifying that? Jan 04 12:03:19 ah that would be great Jan 04 12:03:34 ssh into my mobile phone Jan 04 12:04:08 so your friends could run irssi on it.. just as a show-off :D Jan 04 12:04:24 at the expense of battery life :D Jan 04 12:04:56 what would be nice would be a smallish solar panel I could attach to my bag and that would charge the phone :) Jan 04 12:05:10 (when it was in the bag, connected to the panel) Jan 04 12:05:17 if I recall correctly, it was in fact that method which was supposed to give computers GPRS access through the Moko in the absence of BlueTooth. But again, I'm not a FIC guy and this is from memory. Jan 04 12:05:21 I thought the phone gets recharged over USB Jan 04 12:05:31 so when attached to USB, there is no battery life Jan 04 12:06:08 yes, it charges from usb Jan 04 12:06:49 not like the a780 that doesn't charge from usb when using gprs? Jan 04 12:06:53 I guess it doesn't need a proper usb device / host connected; merely voltage Jan 04 12:07:19 USB Solar Charger: http://www.gadgethub.co.uk/shop/detail.asp?ProductGroupID=11848 Jan 04 12:07:21 so a separate charging device is available? Jan 04 12:07:21 then one could take any solar panel and buy a usb connector from the shop and connect them together Jan 04 12:07:23 :) Jan 04 12:07:26 LaF0rge: does it make sense to use the tickless patches that olpc is currently developing for openmoko? Jan 04 12:07:26 koen: I didn't even notice that until now. Jan 04 12:07:27 mjr \o/ Jan 04 12:07:32 LaF0rge: they got linux down to 6 CS/sec. Jan 04 12:07:35 you just need +vbus Jan 04 12:07:42 yeah Jan 04 12:07:42 LaF0rge: it says it charges, but there's a net loss Jan 04 12:07:43 still reducing them Jan 04 12:08:02 LaF0rge: that's how I killed my a780 in berlin Jan 04 12:08:15 LaF0rge: I forgot to bring the wallsocket usb charger Jan 04 12:08:23 koen: oh, that depends probably on the charger. they have 100mA and 500mA chargers Jan 04 12:08:38 mjr, thx a billion ;) Jan 04 12:08:43 my laptop does 500mA :) Jan 04 12:08:43 koen: actually, I think the charger distinguishes three different types of chargers (a780) Jan 04 12:08:53 koen: it's not about the laptop. Jan 04 12:09:03 it's about the resistor connected to pin 5 of the mini-usb-d Jan 04 12:09:22 using a normal mini-USB cable (non-motorola) results in no charging at all Jan 04 12:09:37 any info on how much power it actually needs for charging ? Jan 04 12:09:38 [even though the software indicates 'i'm connected to usb, i must be charging') Jan 04 12:09:45 does it use the full 500mA ? Jan 04 12:10:07 xkr: if you want to keep me further from doing actual development, then keep up those unimportant questions that can be dealt after the product releas... Jan 04 12:10:24 yeah I was just going to say it's probably the least important thing :D Jan 04 12:10:31 sorry, go back to work now :) Jan 04 12:10:37 LaF0rge, get back to work, you! Jan 04 12:11:57 LaF0rge: When we are at it, unimportant questions to delay your work? When will the product be released? Jan 04 12:12:25 yacc, eek, that just cost us 5 minutes! Jan 04 12:12:34 LaF0rge: have you read my question? Jan 04 12:12:45 LaF0rge: what are you? Jan 04 12:13:32 GoGi: it is a lieutenant Jan 04 12:14:07 human, with a neural interface to an external visor Jan 04 12:15:13 * mjr wonders whether he could do with a solar charger Jan 04 12:15:30 get a proper generator instead. Jan 04 12:15:53 heh Jan 04 12:15:55 oops, my mind is thinking sideways. Jan 04 12:18:01 mjr, if you find better solar chargers, let me know! Jan 04 12:18:11 timtimred, like ? Jan 04 12:19:49 ok, this seems nice also: http://www.cetsolar.com/sc150.htm Jan 04 12:20:14 it uses rechargable AA batteries as buffer and is a bit more flexible Jan 04 12:20:34 (and you can directly use the AA batteries in equipment that wants those) Jan 04 12:20:39 hm a random slashdot comment says that the neo1973 has no headphone? Jan 04 12:21:06 what's a headphone? Jan 04 12:21:30 headphone jacket maybe Jan 04 12:21:41 mjr, the first one used batteries also Jan 04 12:21:56 but maybe not AA Jan 04 12:22:14 mjr, it's cheaper also Jan 04 12:22:15 *nod* Jan 04 12:23:10 and the foldability is nice Jan 04 12:23:33 wonder what the 9V input is for.. :) Jan 04 12:23:44 maybe it's meant to double as a regular battery charger :O Jan 04 12:24:07 Hey, I didn't notice that. Probably is for that, yes. Now I'm wanting it even more. Jan 04 12:24:19 the first one was 12.5 x 12 x 1cm, the latter one 12.7 x 8.3 x 3.2 cm Jan 04 12:25:00 but it's nice with AA batteries, then you can swap them if they run out also.. and buy extra-performant batteries Jan 04 12:25:24 the foldability is nice for transportation but you probably want to keep it open at all other times :) Jan 04 12:25:37 Of course; transport was what I was thinking Jan 04 12:26:10 anyway, it's a lot cheaper also Jan 04 12:26:34 but yeah, if you'd see it as an extra battery back/charger for USB devices, with the added bonus of getting solar power, nice ;) Jan 04 12:27:31 apparently they have a selection too: http://www.cetsolar.com/solarbatchargers.htm Jan 04 12:27:40 hi, is it interesting for openmoko? http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS5482312778.html Jan 04 12:28:16 yet another idea: make neo work like twiddler ( http://www.handykey.com/site/twiddler2.html ) Jan 04 12:28:16 instead of qwerty keyboard on screen Jan 04 12:28:16 multitouch == multichord Jan 04 12:28:33 to go further with above idea: why not use both hands: 10 chord typing ;-) Jan 04 12:29:05 I wonder what kind of speed might be possible Jan 04 12:30:29 mjr, thx Jan 04 12:36:01 lots of linux phones (most are probably quite closed though): http://www.linuxdevices.com/articles/AT9423084269.html Jan 04 12:37:02 will packages be updated and installed via ipkg update; ipkg install packagename from an ssh session? Jan 04 12:37:10 yeah, Moko is not the only Linux phone platform out there, but it is the most open. Well, will be, if FIC doesn't get cold feet soon ;) Jan 04 12:37:45 darmou: via a GUI Jan 04 12:37:49 I assume most of the openembedded packages will be avaliable as a moko based distro Jan 04 12:38:15 as can be seen on http://www.openmoko.com/pixels/app_manager.png Jan 04 12:38:22 koen isn't gui packages updates broken in zaurus, I thought command line was the only way to fly so to speak Jan 04 12:39:13 ohh ok that package manager does look pretty cool, hopefully it works as good as it looks;) Jan 04 12:40:00 darmou: what has a zaurus to with this? Jan 04 12:40:16 * koen thinks some people on the mailinglist want http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3708980972.html instead of a neo Jan 04 12:40:51 well isn't the zaurus based on openembedded as well, or is openmoko build differently from the ground up and does not use gpe, opie etc Jan 04 12:41:00 at least can assign single chord+gesture to all common things I do .. (including most common bookmarks for example) Jan 04 12:42:06 I personally would like a foldup keyboard such as a stowaway Jan 04 12:42:13 you can touch type on it Jan 04 12:43:03 darmou: the zaurus is hardware and therefore cannot be based on a software buildsystem like openembedded Jan 04 12:43:30 koen my point about the package manager is that in the past package managers that are gui have not been the most reliable Jan 04 12:44:26 ipkg suxx Jan 04 12:45:35 hrw|work well the openzaurus one is slower that the pdaxrom version but I think it does more stuff. the full debian dpkg might be better Jan 04 12:45:53 heh Jan 04 12:46:15 signs of cluelessnes part 1: comparing ipkg to dpkg Jan 04 12:47:00 apt might be a better comparison but the .ipk format is based on dpkg Jan 04 12:47:03 that's too long, darmou Jan 04 12:47:19 ipkg == apt + dpkg in one Jan 04 12:47:25 in short Jan 04 12:47:36 yeah that's why it's a bit confusing sigh Jan 04 12:49:17 but anyway this new gui package manager will be really easy to use for non developers which will be good. Jan 04 12:50:08 One thing that's really atracting me to this phone is the abiltiy set up proximity VOIP so that I can save on phone calls Jan 04 12:50:28 well if it's not bulit into the phone alerady I can build it:( Jan 04 12:50:31 :) Jan 04 12:50:39 darmou: save? voip over gprs is cheap for you? Jan 04 12:50:47 no using my wireless access point Jan 04 12:51:15 I assume there will be some way of adding wireless connectivity to the device Jan 04 12:51:43 wireless connectivity, like ehm.... gsm? Jan 04 12:51:48 darmou: powered hub? Jan 04 12:53:12 well according to http://www.esato.com/archive/t.php/t-136764 it does have usb host so should be no probs Jan 04 12:53:30 unpowered usb host. Jan 04 12:53:48 heh Jan 04 12:54:08 darmou: taking stuff lkcl writes like the gospel truth is a bit ehm... Jan 04 12:54:12 "stupid" Jan 04 12:54:28 http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html has all the info Jan 04 12:54:43 you could provide the usb power via that solar panel device Jan 04 12:56:19 at least in Finland some providers offer flat rate GPRS (could use that for 'free VOIP') Jan 04 12:57:28 GoGi: come back to ground please.. Jan 04 12:57:37 yeah but unlike Australia Finland is way ahead, I did hear that 3 hutchson were going to allow VOIP on their network as a way of compating Telstra's new network, not sure if OpenMoko is 3g compatble though. Jan 04 12:57:42 solar power for keeping 500mA wifi stick working... Jan 04 12:58:12 argh Jan 04 12:58:45 darmou: read http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html Jan 04 12:58:48 doh should read specs Ti GPRS (2.5G not EDGE) so guess not:( Jan 04 12:58:58 koen beat me to it Jan 04 12:59:22 openmoko.com has *2* pages and people still manage to not read half of it Jan 04 12:59:24 phone itself will have probably 900mAh battery (popular capacity) and will run few hours of use. Jan 04 12:59:26 *puzzled* Jan 04 12:59:43 sticking external wireless to same battery would kill. Jan 04 13:00:20 * darmou wonders about battery powered hubs Jan 04 13:00:35 AH WAIT! Jan 04 13:00:43 how can I use a bash shell? Jan 04 13:00:48 without a keyboard? Jan 04 13:00:58 GoGi: use on screen one? Jan 04 13:00:59 on-screen keyboard :) Jan 04 13:01:03 bash? Jan 04 13:01:04 ... or morse code Jan 04 13:01:06 GoGi: connect via usb-network? Jan 04 13:01:11 I don't think that will be included Jan 04 13:01:32 koen: busybox perhaps? Jan 04 13:01:41 or via wireless network using powerd hub Jan 04 13:01:43 Stephmw: yeah Jan 04 13:01:49 yes, network works ALWAYS of course Jan 04 13:01:51 in any case, yeah, a touchscreen isn't a friendly interface to bash :) Jan 04 13:02:12 Stephmw: last time I checked the software list it used busybox Jan 04 13:02:21 http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ Jan 04 13:02:26 and they are using an X server, don't they? Jan 04 13:02:49 is the touchscreen a normal X pointer device? Jan 04 13:03:02 GoGi cool, remote X:) Jan 04 13:03:15 * koen points to the earlier comments about Xoo Jan 04 13:03:22 VOIP over GPRS has serious quality of service considerations, unless you're using push to talk and don't mind some latency Jan 04 13:03:35 (which has been talked about on the list) Jan 04 13:03:47 that would certainly make it easier to devlop apps Jan 04 13:04:17 does Ti GPRS mean that its data or call but not at same time? ie.. is it actually possible to talk and browse net at same time? Jan 04 13:04:21 what if I destroy my /etc/X11/xorg.conf? Jan 04 13:04:40 I don't think VOIP over GPRS is a great idea Jan 04 13:04:51 darmou, not as such, no Jan 04 13:04:59 GoGi: since when kdrive has one? Jan 04 13:05:13 kdrive? Jan 04 13:05:41 xserver-kdrive Jan 04 13:06:08 aloril: typically not possible - the call will take priority and gprs will be 'suspended' Jan 04 13:06:29 darmou: so need to wait to be near wifi hotspot and use usb-wifi or be near some other connectitivity or wait for version that supports something faster than GRPS Jan 04 13:06:32 Yah, typically that happens. Dunno if the Moko is any different. Jan 04 13:06:52 I see Jan 04 13:06:52 aloril fortunatly there are lots of free hotspots sprining up Jan 04 13:07:16 Stephmw: hmm.. I wonder if some hacking would make it possible to occasionally sneak GRPS or is this hardcoded in GSM(/GRPS) module? Jan 04 13:07:30 or is this again case "wait for next version" Jan 04 13:07:44 sneak GRPS? Jan 04 13:07:57 sneak GRPS traffic in middle of GSM call ;-) Jan 04 13:08:03 when will the next version be available? Jan 04 13:08:31 aloril: this is both a hardware limitation and a base-station-enforced setup Jan 04 13:08:41 about bash shell: onboard keyboard should work I assume? (not seen bash or similar screenshot of neo ...) Jan 04 13:08:51 aloril: like mjr says though, no idea about the Neo's situation in this Jan 04 13:08:51 Stephmw: oh, ouch Jan 04 13:08:59 goldfish memory Jan 04 13:09:09 there will be no bash on the neo by default Jan 04 13:09:29 no bash?!? Jan 04 13:09:29 * koen is tempted to repaste channel history every 5 minutes Jan 04 13:09:38 GRPS A does support both at same time (Nokia N95) (just read wiki GRPS and Nokia N95 page) Jan 04 13:09:38 I gather that means no other type of shell either Jan 04 13:09:58 very strange Jan 04 13:09:58 koen: Well, it could be solved easily by FIC, by posting an integer in the range (5..31) ;) Jan 04 13:09:59 * koen recommends people to scroll up ~20 minutes Jan 04 13:10:14 GoGi: umm.. I would assume there is some kind of shell or at least you can install one if not there by default ;-) Jan 04 13:10:34 "let's all ask questions that were answered 10 minutes ago" Jan 04 13:11:22 yacc: februari has 31 days!?!? Jan 04 13:11:24 :P Jan 04 13:12:11 aloril: I'm not seeing the bit on the N95 pages that decribes simultaneous GPRS data + GSM call - would you link it? Jan 04 13:12:27 now should I buy a neo1973 or wait for a next version? I've never spent money on a mobile phone exactly because they were always uninteresting black boxes. Jan 04 13:13:14 * koen recommends waiting for the neo1973 Jan 04 13:13:37 ? Jan 04 13:14:19 did I use difficult words again? Jan 04 13:14:22 wait to see the first rev before making a decision :) Jan 04 13:14:46 didn't see any comment that would confirm bash, busybox or some other shell, however it would be quite weird if there was no on screen keyboard (which does seem to been confirmed in earlier talk) Jan 04 13:15:37 sorry, finnish text: "• Dual Transfer Mode (DTM) tukee samanaikaista äänen ja tiedonsiirtoa GSM/EDGE-verkoissa. Yksinkertainen luokka A, multislot luokka 11 (enimmäisnopeus: siirto/lataus = 177,6 / 236,8 kbit/s)" Jan 04 13:16:19 interesting page http://www.mobilewhack.com/reviews/fic_neo1973_smartphone.html seems to think followup model with built in wi fi and bluetooth Jan 04 13:16:35 reviews?!?! Jan 04 13:16:40 the phone isn't out yet Jan 04 13:16:46 not even to reviewers Jan 04 13:17:13 preview? not sure what you would call it. Jan 04 13:17:30 "... supports concurrent voice and data at GSM/EDGE networks. Simple class A, multislot class 11 (max speed out/in ...)" Jan 04 13:17:32 copy press-release, paste, publish Jan 04 13:17:32 Now I understand Jan 04 13:17:32 thanks Jan 04 13:17:40 yup, not out yet ;-) Jan 04 13:17:41 I think Jan 04 13:18:27 and http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GPRS : Class A Jan 04 13:18:27 Can be connected to GPRS service and GSM service (voice, SMS), using both at the same time. Such devices are known to be available today. See List of Class A GPRS Phones Jan 04 13:19:38 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_A_GPRS_Phones claims Nokia N93 is one (which is available) Jan 04 13:20:07 aloril: Class A devices are not that common, and the Neo will get just a simple GPRS module, without even EGPRS. Jan 04 13:20:52 yacc: yeah :-( but its open that is *the* most important feature for me Jan 04 13:21:06 aloril: yep. Jan 04 13:21:40 GPRS is enough. Better open and slow than fast and dumb ;) Jan 04 13:21:56 GoGi: about waiting, if you wait you will get better, but then again if you wait even more you get even better... meanwhile you don't have open phone to use Jan 04 13:22:26 as far as I know neo is only almost completely open phone Jan 04 13:22:27 it's like checking whether you locked your car over and over again Jan 04 13:22:36 no wait, it's not!! Jan 04 13:22:37 :) Jan 04 13:23:49 just need reasonably priced HMD to accompany neo and consumer wearable computing would have arrived Jan 04 13:25:02 (predicted at 2000 it would take 3-8 years for wearable computer to be common, still possible I guess ;-) (most of stuff already done actually, just HMD being problematic and twiddler2 not supported (except neo can do that)) Jan 04 13:25:29 well.. not for "common", but being available without hardware hackery still possible Jan 04 13:25:56 Waiting is somehow stupid => I mean, FIC pointy-hairs need to see some quantity sold, or the next iteration might get squashed. Jan 04 13:28:14 plan to get one when its available (unless somebody surprises and offers better alternative (there isn't one coming as far as I know)) Jan 04 13:31:33 what is touch resolution, ie how accurately you can draw to screen for example? what about differentiating between multiple presses close to each other? Jan 04 13:31:42 yeah, with yacc here, if you're on the hedge you should really just buy the first phone so you can get in on the ground floor Jan 04 13:33:08 and if you develop enough nifty application(s) maybe you get next version for free? who knows .. (I'm not with FIC so of course don't know anything about potential for this ;-) Jan 04 13:34:20 except that http://www.openmoko.com/ says: "If you are interested in developing Free Software applications for the OpenMoko platform, please send information regarding embedded Linux projects you have contributed to, and the work you have done to coreteam@openmoko.org. Jan 04 13:34:20 We will try to get a handful of developers early access, but please understand that we cannot provide any level of support before our launch date. All of our development efforts are focused on getting the device out." Jan 04 13:34:20 absolutely Jan 04 13:34:50 ping me tomorrow, i'm doing some touchscreen tests and framebuffer benchmarks tonite Jan 04 13:35:07 the TS should be pretty high quality Jan 04 13:36:28 aloril: interesting - I didn't know about the N-series Jan 04 13:36:47 mickeyl: cool, just tell any time, I'll grep for your name tomorrow ;-) Jan 04 13:37:29 k Jan 04 13:39:47 Stephmw: well.. there are several things worse in any N series compared to neo: 1) closed 2) need external keyboard for fast text entry (assuming that neo has enough good touch screen here) 3) smaller display (and not touch display) 4) I don't think they have USB host support Jan 04 13:40:28 oh and they cost more too ;-) Jan 04 13:45:52 does the X included need a window manager like regular X ? Jan 04 13:45:58 or will all windows be full screen always ? Jan 04 13:45:59 or .. ? Jan 04 13:46:12 1) is *must*, 2) practically required (imagine using (x)emacs with N series without external keyboard (they do support external foldable bluetoot on so its possible)) Jan 04 13:46:26 * xkr47 drools about having split-screen for ssh & other stuff Jan 04 13:46:37 3) is nice thing to have, 4) makes it 'infinitely' extentable Jan 04 13:47:06 but does it have an FPGA? Jan 04 13:47:14 I think they are fullscreen, I recall some mailing list mail saying that Jan 04 13:47:29 koen: umm.. are there USB FPGA available? ;-) Jan 04 13:47:45 it uses the matchbox window manager I think. Which means fullscreen windows, basically. Jan 04 13:49:11 koen: I still want that 1khp diesel turbine, the Neo is useless without it Jan 04 13:49:13 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000376.html seems relevant mail Jan 04 13:50:14 and a device that charges it by kinetic energy Jan 04 13:50:27 mickeyl: any new ideas on the infoprints? Jan 04 13:50:59 not yet. as soon as I'm working on the final screen (which starts tonite), i'm going to play around with some ideas Jan 04 13:51:22 finishing Matchbox Applet abstraction atm. Jan 04 13:51:29 timtimred, along with a buzzer alarm it could power itself indefinitely! Jan 04 13:54:19 antitheft: ssh into phone, turn "somebody stole this" -mode on: ie.. make it appear like stock neo phone with empty addressbook, etc.. full functionalty as it would be as bought from 'shop' Jan 04 13:54:39 but.. send position always and never actually power off, just pretend being powered off Jan 04 13:54:52 aloril, things like that have been talked about :) Jan 04 13:54:53 then call 112 / 911 and tell coordinates Jan 04 13:55:06 should be doable to some extent Jan 04 13:55:11 yes, but has somebody talked about having live ssh access to stolen phone? ;-) Jan 04 13:55:32 so you can see realtime what is actually happening (even look at current screen) Jan 04 13:56:01 and listen to what is talked (turn micrphone on and send stuff ..) Jan 04 13:56:07 actually that was mentioned on the channel, but I don't think "make it look like brand-new" was mentioned Jan 04 13:56:40 yeah, you want it to be used so that it stays on (and position tracking working) Jan 04 13:56:51 of course the ssh-in needs the phone to connect to the GPRS network and report its IP somewhere, perhaps set up a predetermined tunnel if behind NAT Jan 04 13:58:17 what I was thinking, instead of the ssh-in, is that one would have a security configuration page on the web somewhere, and the phone would periodically check if it's changed Jan 04 13:58:51 and you could set things like "store-and-forward 15 first seconds of each phonecall" and "gimme locations every 5 minutes" and stuff there Jan 04 13:58:52 and then send somewhere predefined location history, etc.. Jan 04 13:59:12 it could keep location history always for several days Jan 04 14:00:11 hmm.. have you seen this idea? have bluetooth device in you: Jan 04 14:00:24 if phone is separated from it -> antitheft mode Jan 04 14:00:42 s/in you/on you/ Jan 04 14:01:43 (in addition to "security configuration page") Jan 04 14:02:30 I think that's come up in my private conversations before the whole openmoko thing, but yes, nice idea for the security conscious (assuming bt on the phone) Jan 04 14:03:13 would allow for immediate mock pristinization of the phone Jan 04 14:03:24 and stuff Jan 04 14:03:42 Well, actually, depending upon how exact the AGPS is, it could have an more important function: Phone locator => drained battery or silent ringing mode often induce the "hunt the phone" game. Jan 04 14:04:02 Did I leave it in the car, or in the kitchen or upstairs? Jan 04 14:04:07 heh, cool idea Jan 04 14:04:52 (of course, overrides needed for when your bt "key" runs out of battery or gets lost, but that's easy...) Jan 04 14:04:54 mickeyl: It depends how exact the AGPS works, ... Jan 04 14:05:09 ya Jan 04 14:05:21 well.. with security page you could turn noice on ;-) Jan 04 14:05:24 But depending upon the local circumstances, it might be enough. Jan 04 14:05:30 (+ see its position too) Jan 04 14:05:48 and I guess with BT security device too Jan 04 14:08:05 aloril: That does not protect against the drained battery ;) Jan 04 14:08:21 btw, will the phone have vibra call? Jan 04 14:08:41 I think I saw vibra mention somewhere... Not sure. Jan 04 14:09:43 doesn't matter much for me either, really Jan 04 14:10:00 vibration is must have in cellphone Jan 04 14:10:15 mailing list do mention vibra Jan 04 14:11:46 hmm, reminds me, a deniable cryptofilesystem wouldn't suffer as much performance penalty on flash as it does on disk... ;] Jan 04 14:12:21 yacc: bring usb charger with you always with enough spare AA rechargeable batteries so that drained battery doesn't happen ;-) Jan 04 14:14:04 aloril: it happens to me quite often at home, because I forget to put the phone in the charger => and now I've got two levels of flat to search for a phone, plus two cars. Jan 04 14:14:25 that just means you have too big of an apartment and too many cards Jan 04 14:14:26 cars Jan 04 14:15:07 yacc: have charger beside your bed and put phone to it at every night Jan 04 14:15:50 (and/or have usb charger always with you with enough spare batteries and keep it enough charged) Jan 04 14:16:25 is there an usb connector directly on the phone or ? Jan 04 14:16:37 the usb charging is nice; there are usb ports everywhere Jan 04 14:16:46 xkr47, yes, dual role even Jan 04 14:17:02 yeah I heard, just thought if it needed some external adapter like some digital cameras Jan 04 14:17:37 (can work either as host or device, but it doesn't supply power to devices, so you need to power them from elsewhere) Jan 04 14:17:42 does it autodetect the role or do you have to set it by software ? Jan 04 14:18:12 dunno Jan 04 14:18:17 "doh, then I can't light my mini christmas tree with my phone" Jan 04 14:19:04 poor you Jan 04 14:19:20 vibrator confirmed: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-November/000398.html ;-) Jan 04 14:20:59 yay, and with the gprs, you can use it for cybersex if it's controllable enough Jan 04 14:21:25 aloril: I don't carry the phone with me inside the flat usually. ;) Jan 04 14:21:47 aloril: Plus I do use it as an ebook reader, so it can lie almost everywhere. Jan 04 14:22:43 yacc: in that case only "put it to charger before you go to sleep" -habit should help Jan 04 14:23:37 aloril: It does not really help, because of a number of facts. As it happens, depending upon how long I work, I sleep sometimes downstairs not to disturb my wife ;) Jan 04 14:24:14 aloril: Plus you always assume that I've got it on me. That's a false assumption :( Jan 04 14:26:56 well put it to charger before going to sleep doesn't assume you have it with you, only that you can find it at that time (and get 2 chargers then if you sleep at 2 different places ;-) Jan 04 14:27:59 aloril: Well, technically speaking it might shorten the time before the phone gets lost and refound, but that assumes that I'm fresh enough when I go to sleep ;) Jan 04 14:30:29 re: chargers, one needs an usb killer similar in spirit to this ethernet one: http://www.radio-active.net.au/blog/2005/04/ethernetKiller.jpg (google images couldn't find an usb version :( ) Jan 04 14:30:35 Well, actually it might be just a useful application, to have a GPS path where the phone was all the time. Although it implies quite a bit of data protection concerns, so I would log it at best to my own private server. Jan 04 14:32:42 yes Jan 04 14:33:44 logging coordinates + camera (even completely separate one) -> coordinates for images (no doubt this has been said somewhere already) Jan 04 14:34:08 at least I don't know where ;) Jan 04 14:34:13 actually I recall even separate gadget for this Jan 04 14:34:39 (in dpreview site by sony) Jan 04 14:35:15 but yes, if you have a position log you could automatically even tag the images with location data according to timestamps Jan 04 14:35:46 2) ... 3) profit! Jan 04 14:36:26 now instead of buying separate gadget from sony, it will be free ;-) Jan 04 14:36:35 except flickr is too stupid to read that tags Jan 04 14:36:37 does it consume much power to maintain a constant position fix, btw? Jan 04 14:37:37 not that familiar with gps thingies Jan 04 14:42:14 I wonder if NTP daemon will be installed by default? (probably not) Jan 04 14:42:42 wouldn't seem likely Jan 04 14:47:26 mjr: probably good idea not to enable it by default Jan 04 14:48:58 about bluetooth security device: it could be your watch Jan 04 14:49:38 actually a 'bit' more smart watch and it could be 'terminal' for phone Jan 04 14:50:22 or another cellphone Jan 04 14:51:12 good idea! Jan 04 14:52:55 mjr: I'm not sure if ntp (being timing sensitive UDP) would work to well with GPRS (which has latency from hell, and a NAT firewall on the path to the Internet). Jan 04 14:54:14 well, the NAT isn't necessarily the case, though often Jan 04 14:54:24 yacc: I guess 1s accuracy should still be possible? Jan 04 14:54:29 and true that, you wouldn't get any insanely accurate data off of it Jan 04 14:55:00 but if you just want the phone to show time to a few seconds, should be workable... Jan 04 14:59:36 (also if the phone does end up having bluetooth I'll have it on a quicker network connection often enough ;P ) Jan 04 15:02:16 'cause in that case, hello nap on my laptop and workstation Jan 04 15:02:50 aloril: technically, NTP should be able to handle the latency somehow, but UDP and NAT is not that funny. Jan 04 15:55:35 * buz curses apple Jan 04 15:55:47 hopefully the headphone out in the neo will be better than the one in the shuffle 2 Jan 04 16:22:10 back later... Jan 04 16:30:06 any scheduled date for the launch of the neo1973 ? Jan 04 16:30:13 :) Jan 04 16:30:22 see topic Jan 04 17:15:57 keon: Considering that we've already got January, it's a mite inprecise => when sitting in Australia, it's enough to say you are traveling to Europe, but when you are already in Europe, it's a little bit stupid to say so ;) Jan 04 17:36:46 yacc: at least you know it's at most January 31th Jan 04 17:37:11 if you are in Europe and someone tells you some location is in europe, at least you know that it's not THAT far away Jan 04 17:37:59 GoGi: Jan 31st, 23:59:59.99 Jan 04 17:41:55 hm in that case BEFORE Feb 1st, 00:00:00.00 is more accurate :) Jan 04 17:43:19 you forgot the timezone. I guess it would be 00:00-12h Jan 04 18:41:34 * buz just cancelled his overpriced mobile contract Jan 04 18:41:38 feels goooood Jan 04 19:49:33 20:57:54 -!- Irssi: New peak in #openmoko@freenode : 89 Jan 04 19:49:43 * xkr47 clones himself Jan 04 19:49:44 ;) Jan 04 19:58:26 Bus 1 Device 2: ID 0a12:0001 Cambridge Silicon Radio, Ltd Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode) Jan 04 19:58:42 :D Jan 04 19:58:47 ~hail LaF0rge Jan 04 19:58:50 * apt bows down to LaF0rge and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Jan 04 19:59:03 oops ;) Jan 04 19:59:57 omg bluetooth Jan 04 20:00:46 OMG PONIES! Jan 04 20:01:26 phonies? Jan 04 20:02:26 LaF0rge: using external hub? Jan 04 20:03:06 * mjr guesses its the bluetoothed development sample he mentioned Jan 04 20:03:24 LaF0rge: oh dear, now you've done it - you've given them hope :) Jan 04 20:03:28 * mjr tries not to assume too much based on that :] Jan 04 20:03:50 Stephmw: by using external hub I can connect many usb devices... Jan 04 20:04:10 usb aquarium Jan 04 20:04:13 hrw: afaik the internal BT is connected via usb too (on the internal interface) Jan 04 20:04:33 hrw: so as long as one driver works... Jan 04 20:06:22 Stephmw: getting usb host working on most of arm SoC is doable. Jan 04 20:06:39 koen: so the phone is not longer doomed :( Jan 04 20:07:05 Stephmw: but as long as there is no info 'this BT is internal' then I will still wait Jan 04 20:07:13 hrw: of course Jan 04 20:07:36 Stephmw: I can connect dvd/rw to my palmtops, few BT sticks, pendrives, mouse and keyboard Jan 04 20:07:45 Stephmw: but they will still be external Jan 04 20:08:29 * Stephmw nods Jan 04 20:20:08 14:28 * LaF0rge has one five prototypes with bluetooth here ;) Jan 04 20:20:29 So it probably is internal. But still doesn't mean the production machine has it, so chill. Jan 04 20:23:24 five protos? so... he gets to throw them away if the flash fails? :) Jan 04 20:24:00 Stephmw: atleast 2 misc hardware versions Jan 04 20:24:15 * mjr guesses that should be "one of five", but *shrug* Jan 04 20:24:24 Stephmw: 5 protos for every hardware revision. Should be normal. Jan 04 20:25:23 * mjr chants the calming down mantra: "I will buy it regardless of bluetooth, I will buy it regardless of bluetooth..." Jan 04 20:25:55 heh Jan 04 20:27:00 omg bluetooth! Jan 04 20:27:41 what, you psychic? Jan 04 20:28:25 no, I just read http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/geek-news Jan 04 20:29:03 haha Jan 04 20:29:11 yes, LaF0rge here has an engineering sample with Bluetooth. Jan 04 20:29:32 This does not equal that the production model will surely have it Jan 04 20:29:44 Ah. Jan 04 20:30:05 (though I must admit I'm having a hard time not letting that get my hopes up ;) Jan 04 21:08:21 so we need the v8 no more? Jan 04 21:08:44 v8? Jan 04 21:12:26 you know without the v8 the phone is doomed Jan 04 21:13:24 HEMI or diesel? Jan 04 21:13:42 tooth Jan 04 21:13:48 disel of course - and it's the V12 - V8 doesn't have enough grunt Jan 04 21:14:00 v12 or w12? Jan 04 21:14:08 with our without tiptronic? Jan 04 21:14:27 A fpga will fix that.. ;) Jan 04 21:14:42 the neo should have a CAN bus Jan 04 21:14:45 oh, _that_ v8 Jan 04 21:14:55 that way it can monitor the engine Jan 04 21:14:56 yeah that one Jan 04 21:16:51 I think you could implement CAN with an FPGA Jan 04 21:17:23 no, with 2 FPGAs! Jan 04 21:17:33 or one fpga that emulates another fpga Jan 04 21:17:37 maybe we can substitute a 8 core sparc niagara for the v8? Jan 04 21:17:43 or possibly a cell Jan 04 21:17:53 pfft, we could emulate a niagara on an fpga Jan 04 21:18:09 or in software even Jan 04 21:18:16 tho that might be against regulations Jan 04 21:18:29 and then when you need CAN, we on-demand-reprogram the fgpa into a CAN bus interface and back again after the CAN activity burst is over Jan 04 21:18:50 Anyone else guessing we might se some more about the Neo at the CES 8-11th? Jan 04 21:19:05 somehow the neo doesnt really fit the CES Jan 04 21:19:20 yeah, what with the v8, it's too big Jan 04 21:19:25 you don't want CAN but that standard vendor-independent diagnostic interface Jan 04 21:24:46 umm, niagara on a fpga? not really :) Jan 04 21:27:06 xorAxAx, silence, fpgas can do anything Jan 04 21:31:34 even when they are just connected to power, no i/o Jan 04 21:33:05 in that case they're doing _everything_ at once Jan 04 21:33:09 you just don't see it happening Jan 04 21:33:25 point Jan 04 21:33:29 is the motofone shipping already? Jan 04 21:33:43 a quasi disposable phone with 400h standby could have uses Jan 04 21:34:11 * Stephmw hears adulterers everywhere rejoice when the motofone is released Jan 04 21:34:53 well considering i can get a sagem (duuuh) phone with 10? credit for 25? here the motofone would have to be reeaaally cheap Jan 04 21:35:25 besides with the neo you can just encrypt the whole bloody device Jan 04 21:35:30 much safer than two phones Jan 04 21:36:43 if adulterers are in need of crypto, they have bigger problems ;-) Jan 04 21:36:53 ... or they live in Saudi Arabia... Jan 04 21:37:25 ... or their wife is just a really furious one ... Jan 04 21:37:48 or are the president of a fundamentalist christian nation Jan 04 21:37:52 oh, wait Jan 04 21:38:06 no problem, even lying about it to congress is fine Jan 04 21:38:18 mjr: now, now, you can't say things like that until he signs the declaration of war on Russia over allofmp3.com Jan 04 21:38:45 mjr: gotta keep the RIAA sweet, dontchaknow Jan 04 21:39:05 because as we all know, the riaa does important things to the betterment of mankind Jan 04 21:39:28 what would the world be without spice girls Jan 04 21:39:29 would be a pity to see britney starve, after all Jan 04 21:42:13 (Oh wait, spice girls doesn't exist anymore! I've got no reason to live! Where's my kayak?) Jan 04 21:43:01 mjr: Actually I've heard a rumor they might do a comback! Rejoice! :P Jan 04 21:45:14 buz: you just don't understand why taking money for the endusers and from the artists is clearly benefitting the artists? Jan 04 21:45:41 well it's obviously benefitting the con-artists that engineered the whole scheme Jan 04 21:57:01 buz: But they aren't conartists. They've got a nice lobbying effort, so they are quite legal ;) Jan 04 21:57:30 obviously they conned you into thinking bribing politicians is ok if only you call it lobbying Jan 04 23:41:59 any openmoko reps hanging out today? Jan 04 23:52:15 whurley: they are all asleep (CET timezone) Jan 04 23:52:41 koen: thanks, I'll check back later :) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jan 05 02:59:59 2007