**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 07 02:59:58 2007 Jan 07 03:21:08 is there a faq page? I'm curious about the projected price Jan 07 15:38:27 drgalaxy: i think there won't be any faq until the wiki is up. and it'll be released when (or perhaps slightly before) v1 is shipped, i think. Jan 07 15:38:51 Hrm hrm. Is GPRS really the only proper mobile Internet connection the OpenMoko will have? Jan 07 15:39:17 drgalaxy: so far, the best faq is to first search the mailing list, and if you don't find your answer there: post a question to the ML. Jan 07 15:40:04 It's also the most important thing. Sure, wlan would be nice, but we're gonna have to wait for that a bit longer. Jan 07 15:40:31 (_if_ bt is in, you can set up internet through it, but of course access points aren't as pervasive) Jan 07 15:40:34 Lumpio-: I don't know what you mean by "proper", but it won't have UMTS or any other 3G. Jan 07 15:40:53 yah, no 3g Jan 07 15:40:53 I mean "proper" as in faster than a 56k modem :P Jan 07 15:41:14 Bluetooth is more power consuming than GPRS, or what? Jan 07 15:41:26 You wouldn't think it is... the range is way lower Jan 07 15:41:42 bt is low-power Jan 07 15:41:50 aevin: don't know about your neck of the woods, but 3G in the UK is unreliable as hell - even if you're in coverage Jan 07 15:42:10 Stephmw: I'm no big 3G fan either. Jan 07 15:42:12 Wifi probably wouldn't help me either, gonna take a while until public APs become ubiquitous here in the middle of nowhere :P Jan 07 15:42:15 that's why 3g cells fall back to gprs ;) Jan 07 15:44:37 wifi would be good at school Jan 07 15:44:41 bluetooth not so much Jan 07 15:44:45 * Lumpio- thinks about his school Jan 07 15:44:50 No. Just no. :( Jan 07 15:45:00 well wifi isnt entirely reliable at mine either Jan 07 15:45:10 I wish mine had wifi of any sort Jan 07 15:45:11 but there are enough spots where it would work to get a fix of email or rss Jan 07 15:45:29 if only the usb was powered... Jan 07 15:45:29 I haven't really scanned for APs but... judging by the competitiveness of their IT "staff", just no. Jan 07 15:46:33 I mean... booting a Linux LiveCD is a big no-no because "viruses will infect the school network" but plugging in USB sticks into their Windows machines isn't Jan 07 15:46:44 so? boot from usb stick ;) Jan 07 15:46:48 lol Jan 07 15:46:58 i would never touch school machines myself Jan 07 15:47:12 Hm, actually that might work, they just got new PCs (the old ones from the Win98 era probably can't boot from USB anyways) Jan 07 15:47:35 Ah well, it's not like I want to use them anyways. Phone is enough for IRC (although a keypad is slightly annoying to type with...) Jan 07 15:47:40 an openmoko phone with vga would be killer Jan 07 15:47:57 VGA as in? Jan 07 15:47:59 VGA out? Jan 07 15:48:04 as in hook up some lcd to it Jan 07 15:48:08 Yeah Jan 07 15:49:46 3G i could care less about Jan 07 15:49:51 GPRS is overpriced and so is UMTS Jan 07 15:50:01 * mjr pats his 10 euro a month flat rate GPRS plan Jan 07 15:50:09 * Lumpio- has flat-rate GPRS, 10€/month for unlimited dat---damn it, slow Jan 07 15:50:21 * koen wonders about the n800 internet tablet Jan 07 15:50:23 Saunalahti. Jan 07 15:50:29 Lumpio-, yes, that :) Jan 07 15:50:32 :P Jan 07 15:50:47 koen: too much gadgets appear... Jan 07 15:50:58 A tablet is a bit annoying to haul around Jan 07 15:51:01 the n800 suffers of the same thing as the n770: no phone, way to big Jan 07 15:51:10 Something like the OpenMoko would be just perfect for some Internet stuff on the go. Jan 07 15:51:19 btw, I don't think I sent you this link about a potential openmoko devel meeting in Finland: http://mjr.iki.fi/openmoko/tapaaminen Jan 07 15:51:23 If it had unridiculous connectivity. Jan 07 15:51:31 hrw: if only money would appear so fast on my back account :) Jan 07 15:51:54 if i could get flatrate gprs for 10EUR i wouldnt care for wifi Jan 07 15:52:08 oo Jan 07 15:52:10 Developer meeting. Jan 07 15:52:14 I love mobile development Jan 07 15:52:22 koen: ;) Jan 07 15:52:33 Lumpio-, well, answer the question bit there via e-mail and maybe we'll get one Jan 07 15:53:22 grrr Jan 07 15:53:28 buz: if I would get flat gprs for 10EUR.. my phone has now gprs configured in such way that it does not connect anyway - just to not generate costs Jan 07 15:53:32 and I need to buy books for the next term Jan 07 15:53:40 hrw: just like mine Jan 07 15:53:40 correction: 1 book Jan 07 15:53:50 €90..... Jan 07 15:53:53 and mine is frigging touchscreen smartphone at that Jan 07 15:54:03 buz, wifi would still be nice, but I admit that the flat rate gprs does take the edge off :) Jan 07 15:54:05 koen: what kind of book? Jan 07 15:54:24 for my uses 56k would be acceptable on the road Jan 07 15:54:33 hrw: "Introduction to Random Signals and Noise" Jan 07 15:54:36 hi LaF0rge Jan 07 15:54:41 gprs gets the job done, after all, just not very fast Jan 07 15:54:43 LaF0rge: good morning! Jan 07 15:55:35 I would ask about one thing but phone devs does not like that subject. Jan 07 15:55:52 there goes the v8 again Jan 07 15:55:55 SCNR Jan 07 15:55:56 aye Jan 07 15:56:00 GPRS is enough for IRC and RSS and stuff Jan 07 15:56:02 Way enough Jan 07 15:56:08 exactly Jan 07 15:56:15 even considering that i have a somewhat perverted use of rss Jan 07 15:56:39 I don't really take advantage of RSS that much >_> Jan 07 15:56:48 I'm using a broken RSS reader I once wrote. Too lazy to change. Jan 07 15:56:53 i basically use it as update notifier Jan 07 15:57:00 It's funny to see phantom posts from weeks ago pop up once in a while though. Jan 07 15:57:56 i somehow dont get it, the first swiss mobile operator that would offer affordable gprs flat would make a killing Jan 07 15:58:17 I don't get why they don't want to offer flat rate GPRS anyways Jan 07 15:58:27 I think my operator is the only one that offers it Jan 07 15:58:30 All the others are like Jan 07 15:58:30 they are greedy bastards Jan 07 15:58:32 5€/MB Jan 07 15:58:33 No thanks. Jan 07 15:58:49 ah well i could get 2GB for 30? Jan 07 15:58:54 but who in their right mind pays that Jan 07 15:59:04 2G is too much for just irc Jan 07 15:59:11 and much too low for serious use Jan 07 15:59:29 Lumpio-, DNA did start offering flat rate again behind saunalahti, to keep up presumably Jan 07 15:59:34 oo Jan 07 15:59:37 Again? Jan 07 15:59:45 They had a flat-rate plan some years ago but dropped it Jan 07 15:59:52 they used to have flat 20 euro plans before Jan 07 15:59:53 yeah Jan 07 16:00:11 i might pay 20? Jan 07 16:00:17 but it would have to be UMTS then Jan 07 16:00:38 well, my plan does include umts as well at saunalahti, with speeds capped at 128k Jan 07 16:00:44 if I had the hardware, of course... Jan 07 16:00:53 Ah, I wish I had the hardware too >_> Jan 07 16:00:58 for 20E i would wnat fullspeed umts Jan 07 16:01:02 whatever that means, anyway Jan 07 16:01:34 You know, I'm using like a 3 year old N-Gage o_O Jan 07 16:01:44 they do of course sell higher caps at higher prices, don't recall details since I only have gprs anyway Jan 07 16:01:51 my p900 recently had its third birthday Jan 07 16:01:57 There just isn't any phone out there that would justify the cost of upgrading. Jan 07 16:02:08 Nothing really revolutionary has come out. Jan 07 16:02:20 buz: my p910 has come close to having its funeral a number of times Jan 07 16:02:24 Would be nice to have a camera and wifi (and a non-retarded API, ever tried Symbian C++?) Jan 07 16:02:30 buz: the usability problems with the UI piss me off Jan 07 16:02:33 Speaking of which, I wonder what the APIs for OpenMoko will be like Jan 07 16:02:37 Stephmw: mine is surprisingly resilient to all damage Jan 07 16:02:47 but the touchscreen is starting to act up Jan 07 16:03:03 Lumpio-: GTK Jan 07 16:03:15 oo Jan 07 16:03:15 (which i consider to be retarded in its own way but....) Jan 07 16:03:24 OOP glued on top of C is a bit funny... Jan 07 16:03:29 LaF0rge, mickey|squash: one thing that would be nice to bundle with the Neo is a screen protector membrane ;-) Jan 07 16:03:51 Stephmw: i agree Jan 07 16:04:01 my p900 screen looks prety much virgin below the membrane Jan 07 16:04:10 and i'm only on my 3rd membrane Jan 07 16:04:18 yeah well, GTK is nice enough, I just rather program GTK programs in an OO language ;) Jan 07 16:05:09 :P Jan 07 16:05:17 I've given up with pure-C GTK programs too Jan 07 16:05:51 i think id use python if i start coding for the thing Jan 07 16:06:41 buz: funny you should say that - I know of at least one .tw mobile phone manufacturer that uses python for their UE layer Jan 07 16:07:01 what toolkit Jan 07 16:07:23 used to be an open source one, then they switched to an inhouse one Jan 07 16:07:25 can't remember the name Jan 07 16:07:32 kinda weird Jan 07 16:07:42 pyqt is a neat thing Jan 07 16:07:42 new one is called Prism iirc Jan 07 16:09:15 if we have enough resources (memory, flash), then at least Gtkmm and PyGtk should be options. My personal goal is to integrate Qt somehow... Jan 07 16:10:06 gtk-qt hehehehe Jan 07 16:10:35 mickey|squash: pester more often about getting 1-2G of flash Jan 07 16:10:56 yes Jan 07 16:11:17 you can leave out the usb charger for all i care if we get 2G flash Jan 07 16:12:04 lol Jan 07 16:12:04 doesn't look good for a lot of flash :/ Jan 07 16:12:12 duuh Jan 07 16:12:12 some problems with space Jan 07 16:12:15 mickey|squash: XIP support? Jan 07 16:12:21 having more ram than flash is kind weird Jan 07 16:12:29 Stephmw: eeks! Jan 07 16:13:04 Stephmw: xip doesn't work with compressed jffs2, so you loose a lot of 'space' Jan 07 16:13:04 koen: not everything needs to be fast - just needs to be fast enough Jan 07 16:13:13 Flash is cheap, wonder why they hold back on it. Jan 07 16:13:30 like i said, atm. size is the problem Jan 07 16:13:32 physical size Jan 07 16:13:38 Aha Jan 07 16:13:49 there's just no room left for larger NAND chips Jan 07 16:13:52 by my definition, flash is tiny ;) Jan 07 16:13:57 how about stacked nand Jan 07 16:14:02 mickey|squash: how about no on-board flash (or minimal) and delegate to the sd card? Jan 07 16:14:16 that one is limited to 1G afaik Jan 07 16:14:36 and yeah, that would also limit GPS usage Jan 07 16:14:45 yeah Jan 07 16:14:53 GPS around here regularly ship with 1-2G flash now Jan 07 16:15:31 mickey: the problem is that the S3C2410 can't deal with large-block flash chips. Jan 07 16:15:38 ~lart S3C2410 Jan 07 16:15:38 * apt slaps a compatible dib on S3C2410's head Jan 07 16:15:50 it's just too old Jan 07 16:16:04 atleast it is not sa1100 ;D Jan 07 16:16:26 do we now if it can do vga @ 30fps now? Jan 07 16:16:32 some claimed it cant Jan 07 16:17:28 define 'vga @ 30fps' Jan 07 16:17:45 well ideally it would decode vga mpeg4 and display Jan 07 16:17:53 but someone claimed it cant even fill the FB fast enough Jan 07 16:17:53 buz: *rotfl* Jan 07 16:18:36 koen: h264 640x480 30fps with AC7.1 audio decoding/transcoding to mp3 and sending to A2DP headphones Jan 07 16:18:48 exactly Jan 07 16:18:52 * Stephmw pops hrw's pipedream Jan 07 16:19:01 i've seen 300mhz geode decode vga mpeg4-simple Jan 07 16:19:06 just barely Jan 07 16:19:18 buz: geode has FPU Jan 07 16:19:32 and a link to a framebuffer that isn't made of wet string Jan 07 16:19:32 point Jan 07 16:20:51 which i guess brings us back to your beloved i.mx31 Jan 07 18:02:57 LaF0rge, mickey|squash: http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/openalchemy.tar.bz2 Jan 07 18:04:19 koen: does their svn req ssl? or does they have trusted cert? Jan 07 18:04:49 yes, and it seems like they have a ca-cert Jan 07 18:05:03 hrw: https isn't the least of the problems Jan 07 18:05:10 ca-cert is not trusted by default Jan 07 18:05:24 have a look at https://www.openalchemy.org/svn/openalchemy-core/alchemy/configure.in Jan 07 18:05:46 m4 makes my eyes bleed, but this just is too much Jan 07 18:07:22 I'll have to wait till glibc has been rebuilt to see if actually compiles Jan 07 18:08:57 that configure.in looks nice Jan 07 18:10:34 only host part suxx Jan 07 18:11:26 hrw: it lacks all checks for libpng, jpeg, etc Jan 07 18:11:48 and pgettext and pimglib are 'forks' or gettext and imglib Jan 07 18:11:55 what IS openalchemy Jan 07 18:12:11 openalchemy.org Jan 07 18:14:17 that somehow looks like the very first winmobile SCNR Jan 07 18:15:10 koen: wow, great! Jan 07 18:15:30 LaF0rge: it's the groundwork, nothing tested yet Jan 07 18:15:44 LaF0rge: as I said, their autofoo doesn't check for the actual deps Jan 07 18:15:44 koen: ok, anyway, you should report it to openalchemy-general Jan 07 18:15:52 koen: I'm not surprised. Jan 07 18:15:53 will do once I get it compiling Jan 07 18:16:12 koen: just report all those things to openalchemy-general, and/or send patches to openalchemy-devel. They'll integrate them, don't worry Jan 07 18:16:52 trying to work up motivation to write those patches :) Jan 07 18:17:37 well, then don't do the patches. they will have somebody to fix it. Jan 07 18:18:04 always remember, this whole stuff was never meant to be released or even built outside picopeta, when it was written Jan 07 18:18:25 it shows Jan 07 18:18:55 amida is a bit bulky.. Jan 07 18:19:12 I should try to build it for powerpc, just to weed out x86 and arm assumptions Jan 07 18:19:17 I still think it's worth it. The widget look+feel might seem ancient, but there are a lot of nice applications with it Jan 07 18:19:43 someone might port it to a more recent toolkit Jan 07 18:20:17 koen: they might even be willing to [financially or otherwise] support somebody doing it Jan 07 18:26:36 Hmm, what is openalchemy? Jan 07 18:27:38 yacc: scroll up 15 minutes Jan 07 19:07:56 good morning Jan 07 19:14:35 good evening :-) Jan 07 19:14:50 :) Jan 07 19:15:16 * buz wonders what browser would fit best on openmoko Jan 07 19:15:58 IE4 Jan 07 19:16:28 sure, in a qemu-x86 instance running win95 Jan 07 19:16:39 or wine, for that matter Jan 07 19:17:06 maybe even have a 386 or so on a fpga Jan 07 19:17:20 and a turbo on the v8 Jan 07 19:17:32 compressor Jan 07 19:17:36 less of a lag Jan 07 19:18:37 what browser is maemo using anyway Jan 07 19:19:57 operaaaargh Jan 07 19:20:08 mhh there's a minimo hacked up for it Jan 07 19:20:46 megamo Jan 07 19:52:54 hmm, a curious point came into my mind. I happen to have an old externally powered usb1.1 dvb-t box. But the neo perhaps can't quite decode the stuff on the fly... Jan 07 19:54:06 (not that it'd be insanely useful anyway, with the box requiring wall juice) Jan 07 20:20:35 koen: Hmmm, the Simputer seems like a Linux based PocketPC distributed only in India. Right? Jan 07 20:20:48 right Jan 07 20:22:39 maxim's sim puter out in stores now! Jan 07 20:24:09 hrw: Do you read sent to your mail adress at openembedded? Jan 07 20:25:26 i guess you do Jan 07 20:31:19 how much does simputer cost? Jan 07 20:40:25 koen: And openalchemy is the UI of these? Jan 07 20:43:51 yacc: the website is pretty clear on that Jan 07 20:44:40 koen: yeah, but I wonder how this is related to the Neo? Jan 07 20:52:38 yacc: i keep running into you Jan 07 20:52:43 first at work, then on the python-tutor list Jan 07 20:52:47 and now in this chat room Jan 07 20:53:15 thedaniel: Even funnier, you don't even know how I look ;) Jan 07 20:54:19 yacc: au contraire, i've seen the skiing photos! Jan 07 20:55:57 thedaniel: Also waiting till the Neo is released? Jan 07 20:58:00 * yacc hopes his Nokia survives till the Neo will be buyable ;) Jan 07 21:00:29 yacc: yes, i'm patiently waiting Jan 07 21:00:40 sick of my HTC Jan 07 21:01:00 hope the Neo inspires a lot of work from smart folks Jan 07 21:02:24 thedaniel: I'm not patiently waiting. Hmm, I think I didn't do my daily "whine-ritual" yet today. Jan 07 21:02:41 * yacc whines that the Neo will be late, and that will induce the end of all humankind. Jan 07 21:06:54 thedaniel: that leaves the question, where did we cross paths on python tutor? Jan 07 21:09:14 yacc: we didn't so much cross paths as i started noticing your postings Jan 07 21:09:35 interestingly enough I read one of the emails and thought "wow this guy sounds just like yacc" and then i saw the From: field Jan 07 21:10:50 haha Jan 07 21:11:10 did I miss something (and the Neo1973) will be late or is yacc just whining? .. hm Jan 07 21:11:32 what is it with 1973 anyways, does that mean it really is 34 years late? Jan 07 21:12:06 sannes: just yacc with his daily ritual. i don't think there's any change in release info other than the "January 2007" on the website Jan 07 21:52:50 hey, are there any germans here? Jan 07 21:55:00 i got some questions to the FIC Neo1973 Jan 07 21:55:15 the first thing: how much will it cost? Jan 07 21:55:39 will there be bluetooth support? Jan 07 21:55:53 350USD Jan 07 21:55:59 who know.. Jan 07 21:55:59 and when is the release date in europe? Jan 07 21:56:07 January 2007 :D Jan 07 21:56:28 yeah, thats now ^^ Jan 07 21:58:38 can i use it without a "contract with vodaphone or someone else" (i dont know the english word ^^, sry) Jan 07 21:59:23 ducke: Once it's available, you should be able to just order the phone as it is Jan 07 21:59:55 kk Jan 07 22:01:14 does it use some kind of special linux-version or does it have its own OS Jan 07 22:01:15 ? Jan 07 22:01:37 It will run openmoko Jan 07 22:01:47 check the topic of the channel :) Jan 07 22:01:50 k ^^ Jan 07 22:02:15 Everything except the gsm-module is open on the phone Jan 07 22:03:15 and the gps module Jan 07 22:06:41 its january - no more information? Jan 07 22:06:52 Nothing more heard yet Jan 07 22:06:59 :( Jan 07 22:07:59 IkeD: expect news on the 31st, 23:59:59.99 Jan 07 22:08:12 lol Jan 07 22:08:37 well, a few more days and they might reword their page to be 'late january' Jan 07 22:08:38 or.. '2008' Jan 07 22:08:52 Stephmw: GMT-10 ;-) Jan 07 22:08:52 depending on how well their testing is going Jan 07 22:09:36 rwhitby: of course! how silly of me - US timezones are what matter Jan 07 22:10:11 Stephmw: no, GMT-10 is the latest you can still be on 31 jan. Jan 07 22:10:50 Is there no -11? Jan 07 22:12:08 CM: no, nothing is opensource, except the software (except the gps daemon) Jan 07 22:12:33 so the state of the gsm module is pretty irrelevant Jan 07 22:12:57 xorAxAx: True :) Jan 07 22:13:33 rwhitby: where is that? Hawaii? Jan 07 22:13:42 yep Jan 07 22:13:51 still the US then :) Jan 07 22:14:04 CM: the places that should be -11 are actually +13 Jan 07 22:14:52 time change line? Jan 07 22:14:56 It's too bad that gsm != cdma Jan 07 22:15:02 ehrm...is it right that this mobile phone uses the linux 2.6 kernel? Jan 07 22:15:22 Ah, ok. Just looked at www.worldtimezone.com, seems to be both + and - 12, so 25 zones.. Can that really be? Jan 07 22:15:32 ducke: Yes Jan 07 22:15:41 (i.e. Chatham Island, which is GMT+13:45 at the moment) Jan 07 22:15:44 ducke: only weird people use 2.4 now Jan 07 22:16:18 cool ^^ i like that...have to get some money for this ^^ Jan 07 22:16:29 hey, 2 years ago i was also using 2.4 ;) Jan 07 22:16:40 hrw: i am using 2.4 Jan 07 22:16:43 on my router Jan 07 22:16:48 ^^ Jan 07 22:16:52 ducke: imagine that some vendors still release 2.4 based devices Jan 07 22:17:06 xorAxAx: vendor kernel with binary modules? Jan 07 22:17:15 hrw: nope, completly open source Jan 07 22:17:16 x86 Jan 07 22:17:20 486 Jan 07 22:17:24 DX2 Jan 07 22:17:37 xorAxAx: my router run 2.4.30 but this is because there is no source for some drivers Jan 07 22:17:48 486dx2... Jan 07 22:17:53 nice old machine Jan 07 22:18:18 few years ago I used 386sx+fpu 5mb ram 2xisa nics as bridge Jan 07 22:18:29 well I hope there is some news soon, gl all Jan 07 22:18:45 hrw: too slow for pppoe routing :) Jan 07 22:19:02 that one does 2 MBits pppoe routing in kernel Jan 07 22:19:35 (and its not my router anymore, here i only have mips stuff running :) Jan 07 22:19:43 I've had 2 disks dying on me in my router.. Sucks Jan 07 22:20:02 my router has 8M for filesystem Jan 07 22:20:16 CM: ? Jan 07 22:20:21 CM: why does a router need a harddrive? Jan 07 22:20:30 that one is running from a floppy Jan 07 22:20:37 xorAxAx: Well, I had it as printerserver and file-server too.. Jan 07 22:20:38 Filesystem Size Used Available Use% Mounted on Jan 07 22:20:38 /dev/root 7.1M 2.7M 4.4M 39% / Jan 07 22:20:43 So not just routing Jan 07 22:20:50 hrw: Hehe Jan 07 22:21:22 speaking of disks.. Jan 07 22:21:38 I would need to buy 200-300GB one in march/april Jan 07 22:22:24 why those 750GB monsters are so expensive.. Jan 07 22:22:34 somebody knows if sean will be @fosdem? Jan 07 22:22:49 I read that http://mjr.iki.fi/openmoko/tapaaminen and that the days before fosdem ;) Jan 07 22:23:07 greentux_alt: read ML? Jan 07 22:23:07 hrw: 1tb-disks comming this quarter from Hitatchi Jan 07 22:23:27 hrw: no Jan 07 22:23:49 greentux_alt: ask there Jan 07 22:23:56 CM: for 1000 eur? Jan 07 22:24:04 Probably something like that.. Jan 07 22:24:12 hrw: on communit yor announcement lists? Jan 07 22:24:40 that you lists you can find @openmoko.com Jan 07 22:24:42 greentux_alt: nope - I misread some mail.. no info about fosdem Jan 07 22:24:48 greentux_alt: ask on ML then Jan 07 22:25:06 there is a devel list, but i dont have the (hidden) link Jan 07 22:26:05 neither do I Jan 07 22:26:59 mail sent... Jan 07 22:33:17 they need harddrives with raid on them Jan 07 22:33:39 like something the size of a hardrive, which is able to fail, but act in a degraded state Jan 07 22:54:12 ....nice Hawaii Jan 08 00:19:57 lol emacs client that rules Jan 08 01:37:57 hrw|gone: I beg pardon. 2.4. is used in a number of systems "that-just-work", and won't be replaced till these break ;) **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jan 08 02:59:57 2007