**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 12 02:59:57 2007 Jan 12 03:01:25 WillySilly: try reading the question: i.e. when's the next rev of the hardware disign? Jan 12 03:01:41 err, design. Jan 12 03:02:35 After Feb 2007 Jan 12 03:02:58 I'd assume after rev 1 makes them fantastically wealthy Jan 12 03:58:53 no multitouch :-( Jan 12 03:59:04 * aloril was so looking forward hacking it Jan 12 03:59:48 what will hardware do if you do touch screen in multiple locations? Jan 12 04:21:19 probably what my laptop does, ignore the second touch Jan 12 05:06:27 is that done on hardware or is it software thing? Jan 12 06:26:03 http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/4DD0941D-9097-4FAE-A3BB-29DA5CA07199.html Jan 12 06:26:05 "When a phone is unlocked it loses its privileges on a provider's data network. An unlocked phone can make GSM calls and send basic SMS. No MMS, no Internet, no iTS. Apple would either have to reverse engineer a method to gain access to the data network (unlikely as most data networks require SSL-level security to access) or it would have to offer something different." Jan 12 06:26:40 wow, USA has it quite bad... Jan 12 06:29:03 that's telco FUD Jan 12 06:29:16 MMS is perfectly doable with unlocked phones, if the operator isn't being an asshole Jan 12 06:29:56 of course, and Internet trough GRPS/etc.. too but is reality really that operators forbid these? Jan 12 06:30:24 you can even do MMS on pc machines Jan 12 06:30:25 well some US operator might Jan 12 06:30:34 afaik Jan 12 06:30:42 all I'm saying .fi is historically 100% unlocked phones, locking is a new thing over here Jan 12 06:30:46 and we get plenty of services Jan 12 06:31:11 locked as in operator-locked ? Jan 12 06:31:14 yeah Jan 12 06:31:22 ah yeah Jan 12 06:31:31 Tv: yup, that why I was amazed by that claim that you can use internet (over GPRS for example) in USA with unlocked phone Jan 12 06:31:43 aloril: you mean "cannot"? Jan 12 06:32:00 heck, some operator might prevent unlocked phones from operating at all Jan 12 06:32:00 s/can use/cannot use/ Jan 12 06:32:00 aloril meant: Tv: yup, that why I was amazed by that claim that you cannot use internet (over GPRS for example) in USA with unlocked phone Jan 12 06:32:05 don't give money to bad telcos Jan 12 06:40:24 all telcos are bad, it's just a matter of to which extent they are ;) Jan 12 06:45:42 t-mobile unlocked my old t610 for me and it kept working fine Jan 12 06:46:28 haven't tried with the nokia n80 that I bought unlocked yet, but I see no reason it'd be different Jan 12 06:47:43 so its not true for all providers at least (in USA) Jan 12 06:48:12 people seen this thing? http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/01/11/seamless_shows_s-xgen/ Jan 12 06:48:52 aloril, I'd bet not. especially not when they'll unlock your phone if asked nicely Jan 12 06:49:21 (and lie about going on holiday to thailand or somewhere like that) Jan 12 06:50:11 hmm.. I wonder if Nokia ever switches from Symbian, which one it would select: Windows or Linux? I bet Linux Jan 12 06:50:18 careo: hehe Jan 12 06:50:23 I suppose I should actually get GPRS service again and find out... heh Jan 12 06:50:27 aloril: n700 and n800 already run linux Jan 12 06:50:33 aloril: considering the n800 and 770 are linux, I'd bet that Jan 12 06:52:37 n770 and n800 are a bit different than their phones, but yes, I agree Jan 12 06:53:36 good times coming I reckon Jan 12 06:53:51 motorola + nokia + any phone using openmoko + other linux phones -> windows is kept in small market share and Linux will have huge share Jan 12 06:54:25 I'm eager to see what comes of trolltech's greenphone platform. always was more of a Qt fan than GTK Jan 12 06:54:34 linux already has bigger share and I bet it will increase its share faster than windows (if windows even manages to increase its share ;-) Jan 12 06:54:35 but that's getting into the realm of VI vs Emacs Jan 12 06:54:53 i haven't heard of tmobile locking out gprs on unlocked phones... considering they'll unlock it for you! Jan 12 06:55:04 and t-mo is pretty much the only other gsm carrier of note in the us Jan 12 06:55:35 if it's cingular that'll do that crap, then I'd suggest voting with your dollar Jan 12 07:00:44 remember all the at&t wireless stores that changed to cinglar? they're changing back, oddly Jan 12 07:02:28 yeah. now that AT&T bought one of the baby bells Jan 12 07:23:25 \join #debian Jan 12 07:25:30 HEY SO WHAT DO YOU GUYS THINK ABOUT HITLER???? Jan 12 07:28:14 cbpage: why would they block unlocked phones, they're only forcing you to use a competitor? Jan 12 07:28:18 seems like strange logic Jan 12 07:32:15 benJIman: Well, if they control the devices they control two layers of the pricing: the basic pricing for time & data, plus what you can do in what way. Basically the Sidekick/Hiptop business model (which is crazy without a flatrate, because these stupid devices do "swap out" data over GPRS to the servers, so the user has no control at all over data usage). Jan 12 07:33:38 still if you have a phone on cingular and you unlock it and they ban you they're only forcing you to move to a competitor Jan 12 07:39:07 Well, that's how the PHB-brains work. Jan 12 07:39:23 mhh the seamless thing costs 1500USD Jan 12 07:39:26 WTF would buy that Jan 12 07:40:23 I remember how T-Mobile (at) reacted when they learned how much mileage I was able to get from the AIM client. Don't think that they envisioned anyone would be able to do data entry, or more pressing to them send sms via AIM ;) Jan 12 07:40:39 Well, it was just level2 support tech. Jan 12 07:42:49 if it can transmit data, you can run tcp ip over it Jan 12 07:42:50 somehow Jan 12 07:43:37 quite surely it will be pita for most things and slow, but it's possible Jan 12 07:59:09 hi Jan 12 07:59:11 i'm new Jan 12 07:59:33 buz: pita and too slow makes it unworkable for many things. Jan 12 07:59:37 do you know when open moko will be out? Jan 12 08:00:29 * Psi points Zamolf to the topic Jan 12 08:06:05 tnks psi Jan 12 08:06:15 the os will be debian? Jan 12 08:06:34 openembedded Jan 12 08:06:38 i dont know, but i doubt it Jan 12 08:06:42 ah, there you go :) Jan 12 08:07:52 Zamolf: February is the current ETA, see topic. Jan 12 08:07:57 confirmed at highest level: no 3rd part applications for iPhone: http://apple.slashdot.org/apple/07/01/12/0430200.shtml Jan 12 08:10:39 as if that will stop anybody Jan 12 08:11:24 hehe Jan 12 08:11:36 i would bet it's pretty difficult Jan 12 08:12:49 hehe you right, no one will bother, everyone will the skill to actually do it will have already bought a neo :P Jan 12 08:13:06 however, what does this mean for average user? in practice can you really make commercial program without Apple blessing it Jan 12 08:13:28 i wouldn't be surprised if the iphone only runs apple-signed binaries Jan 12 08:13:37 free programs, yeah those with skill can do that and I guess (as many others have) that eventually it will Linux anyway Jan 12 08:13:38 i very much doubt it's at all easy to put software on there Jan 12 08:14:03 but.. that will be minority I suspect, for majority it probably means just that: no 3rd party apps Jan 12 08:14:10 (except Apple blessed ones) Jan 12 08:29:11 so_solid_moo: It's the shared blessings of Apple and Cingular. So anything that makes you save money on your phone bill is out per definition. Jan 12 08:30:51 yo.. is the battery of moko removable ? Jan 12 08:31:08 or is there a "reset" button which does the same ?-) Jan 12 08:42:43 xkr47: I'm guessing the battery is removable since the sd slot is under it Jan 12 08:44:39 xkr47: Battery is removable Jan 12 09:06:16 ok nice Jan 12 09:17:15 hi all Jan 12 09:17:51 any news about the price? Jan 12 09:20:27 no new information Jan 12 09:20:29 $350 is the latest news Jan 12 09:25:24 what wieless compannies can we use eventually ? Jan 12 09:25:47 anyone that uses GSM I'd say Jan 12 09:25:52 unless you're from the US Jan 12 09:25:59 in which case you're screwed Jan 12 09:26:27 nyc .. damn Jan 12 09:35:30 koen: at least it's not like the Cingular/Apple deal - I guarantee they'll simlock that baby Jan 12 09:38:10 I'm excited about how could get openmoko platform running on iphone Jan 12 09:40:06 umm, what changes do you have in the US of getting just a SIM you can use? Jan 12 09:40:20 I mean, getting a throwaway phone is just money wasted, acceptable but unwanted. Jan 12 09:40:44 you can likely just get sim for use on a datacard Jan 12 09:41:02 the land of the free Jan 12 09:41:17 $free$ Jan 12 09:41:32 the land of the free monopolies Jan 12 09:41:58 (after a mail-in rebate) Jan 12 09:42:12 I wonder how fast I get put on the 'watch list' if I request all cadastral and topographic info for .nl Jan 12 09:42:31 it's legal and they should give it to me, but somehow I doubt it will be that easy :) Jan 12 09:42:39 I'm spending over half my time in the US these days, and I'm quickly getting fed up with the mobile phone industry over there. Jan 12 09:43:34 and so far I've chosen to just use my existing mobile and roaming SIM to work around the whole damn thing Jan 12 09:43:48 but I need to get a US SIM soon Jan 12 09:44:03 must be getting pretty expensive Jan 12 09:44:03 preferably one I can put in a Neo Jan 12 09:44:13 I don't talk that much Jan 12 09:44:24 hehe Jan 12 09:44:25 so far the biggest cost is living with the suck of them always assuming everyone has a local number Jan 12 09:44:30 there might not be an apple iphone after all Jan 12 09:44:44 I guess they'll rename it to "apple phone" Jan 12 09:44:56 powerbook Jan 12 09:44:57 or iMobile or something Jan 12 09:45:01 phonebook pro Jan 12 09:45:09 macphone Jan 12 09:45:18 phonetunes Jan 12 09:45:27 pretty strange that apple chose to go ahead with the name while they had no rights to it Jan 12 09:45:31 maybe they think it's good publicity Jan 12 09:45:33 Airphone extreme Jan 12 09:53:42 is it out yet? ^^ Jan 12 09:54:34 Sencer: please read topic Jan 12 09:54:59 Sencer: Yes! Yes! Yes! ... nah, only pulling your leg ;-) Jan 12 09:55:04 yes, I was trying to be humorous. ;) Jan 12 09:55:22 you should have asked about bluetooth Jan 12 09:55:33 does it have bluetoothß Jan 12 09:55:35 ? Jan 12 09:55:40 or about the diesel V12 Jan 12 09:55:45 * Tv . o O ( if it had FPGA, we could use that to implement wifi! ) Jan 12 09:55:58 we're still trying to convince stefan_schmidt that it needs a ship engine Jan 12 09:56:45 * koen hits to the topic Jan 12 09:57:40 koen: what? you don't think it needs this built-in? http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Jan 12 09:57:58 maybe it'll fit in the SD slot under the battery Jan 12 09:58:04 Stephmw: why him? Jan 12 09:58:30 hehe, Wärtsilä, I'm living in a building that used to be theirs Jan 12 09:59:33 Stephmw: no, but it needs that as an add-on Jan 12 10:00:01 xorAxAx: because he can pass that suggestion on for v2 Jan 12 10:02:06 Stephmw: why? Jan 12 10:06:10 xorAxAx: 'because' :-) seriously though, it's because from the chatter on here, he has a little more time than either mickey or LaF0rge for these things - my perception could be off though Jan 12 10:06:34 I think they should just push out an qemu-worthy sdk when they have the chance Jan 12 10:06:39 whether we have hardware or not Jan 12 10:06:49 i want an OpenMoko badly .. wish our networks here in South Africa would get it. Jan 12 10:06:57 i have my doubts .. Jan 12 10:06:58 (and yes, I'm trying to make generic openembedded things work as we speak) Jan 12 10:07:26 Corical: all you need is a sim that'll work in any phone; if your market doesn't have that, you're screwed anyway ;) Jan 12 10:08:08 Stephmw: he is not involved at all, is he? Jan 12 10:08:38 thx Tv .. it shouldn't be a problem .. Jan 12 10:10:49 Corical: where in .za are you? Jan 12 10:10:58 Jhb, highvoltage. Jan 12 10:11:07 ah. I'm in CT Jan 12 10:11:30 cool, so whats the steps to get an OpenMoko ? Jan 12 10:12:00 highvoltage is a werid town name :) Jan 12 10:12:04 write mtn, vodacom, cell c and virgin every day? Jan 12 10:12:05 s/ri/ir/ Jan 12 10:12:06 xorAxAx meant: highvoltage is a weird town name :) Jan 12 10:12:15 heh Jan 12 10:12:22 very energetic town Jan 12 10:12:38 ah, that wasnt the answrer Jan 12 10:13:09 who ever said it's a town name ? Jan 12 10:13:24 in context .. Jan 12 10:13:50 highvoltage, I'm located in Johannesburg, Gauteng, South Africa. Jan 12 10:13:52 better ? Jan 12 10:14:32 Corical: sure. although I understood you first time :) Jan 12 10:14:46 indeed you did, jsut a couple of apes, that didn't .. Jan 12 10:15:23 Corical: ape is a bot, and i am not an ape :-p Jan 12 10:15:27 Needs to be spoon fed .. it appears. Jan 12 10:16:45 Tv: http://openembedded.org <- SDK for openmoko, available right now Jan 12 10:17:17 it will not get you the moko widgets, but it will be how the preferred buildsystem will look like Jan 12 10:24:43 koen: yeah I know Jan 12 10:24:49 koen: I'm playing with that part already Jan 12 10:25:04 koen: triggered funky qemu failures with qemuarm Jan 12 10:25:08 trying qemux86 next Jan 12 10:26:59 how hard has it been getting the gtk working on moko? Jan 12 10:27:28 Tv, record a flash and send to the qemu team ;) Jan 12 10:41:04 wonder how much room there will be inside the neo Jan 12 10:41:17 for err.. mods :P Jan 12 10:43:16 they should sell a variant back cover that is 5mm thick and thus has 4mm extra empty space on the inside :) Jan 12 10:43:56 then you could embed your favourite unpowered usb device or whatever there :) Jan 12 10:45:35 what's multitouch by the way? Jan 12 10:47:57 azazel: look at the screenshots down there: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/fics-linuxbased-smartphone-213016.php Jan 12 10:49:10 Sencer: many thanks! Jan 12 10:50:28 and the fic won't have it Jan 12 10:51:39 mmm... but the article is about it... Jan 12 10:51:53 version 1 wont have it Jan 12 10:59:31 won't have it? Oh, completely missed that... Jan 12 11:00:16 see topic Jan 12 11:00:17 Sencer: the channel title states it... we will see Jan 12 11:00:53 Gah. I must have read it 5 times and I'm still seeing new things in there... Jan 12 11:00:57 thanks and sorry Jan 12 11:01:50 it gets updated from time to time :) Jan 12 11:04:31 will gtk apps compile directly or almost directly to openmoko ? Jan 12 11:05:20 * xkr47 was planning to start developing 480x640 gtk apps at home so he's prepared when the phone comes :) Jan 12 11:05:31 depending on the buildsystem used it will compile cleanly Jan 12 11:05:41 it will however not use the mokowidgets by default Jan 12 11:05:59 do they replace gtk widgets partially or completely ? Jan 12 11:06:12 iirc they supplement them Jan 12 11:06:21 * koen looks at mickey|zzZZzz Jan 12 11:06:22 I guess moko comes with a custom gtk theme ? Jan 12 11:08:15 would it be remotely possible to get a tentative list of mokowidgets is supposed to be included? Jan 12 11:08:37 no idea Jan 12 11:08:37 * koen looks at mickey|zzZZzz Jan 12 11:10:15 hm.. wonder how well doom will run on it :P Jan 12 11:10:38 especially psdoom ;--) Jan 12 11:11:10 multiplayer psdoom.. "aaaargh you killed my X! Jan 12 11:11:30 did the indt opensource their stylus doom yet? Jan 12 11:12:47 multitouch could be nice in games as well.. open & close door, etc :) Jan 12 11:13:04 or slap enemies... Jan 12 11:13:10 ;) Jan 12 13:10:09 mh gizmodo claims its multitouch? Jan 12 13:10:53 gizmode claims a lot Jan 12 13:11:02 digg claims the bluetooth dongle can do wifi Jan 12 13:11:10 What did the mail from sean claim? Jan 12 13:11:30 sean only said he worked on multitouch Jan 12 13:11:47 * koen has an almost religious belief in the topic Jan 12 13:12:56 oh the topic has changed Jan 12 13:13:17 religious scripture shouldnt change you know Jan 12 13:15:18 only retranslated to match current interpretations :) Jan 12 13:21:03 ;) Jan 12 13:59:56 multitouch might be possible: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000576.html Jan 12 14:01:17 http://www.invair.de/ another company thats some 20km from here Jan 12 14:01:18 you need to connect more hardware, adapt tslib and more importantly X and gtk Jan 12 14:01:21 never even heard of them Jan 12 14:01:39 sounds like neo v3 Jan 12 14:02:01 they can always do the hardware bit in v2 Jan 12 14:02:24 i rather see wifi and cam in v2 Jan 12 14:02:43 koen: connect more hardware? oh.. I got hopes up it was 'only' "... a considerable driver effort." Jan 12 14:02:50 invair - I remember seeing and trying one on the cebit 2002 Jan 12 14:02:51 and perhaps a faster cpu, but we really can't judge that before we see the device running Jan 12 14:03:10 looks to be in the road ballpark Jan 12 14:03:11 interesting naviation concept, only a scrollwheel and 3 buttons Jan 12 14:03:14 announce, then dont ship Jan 12 14:03:19 but it wasn't exciting back then Jan 12 14:03:23 no touchscreen? Jan 12 14:03:29 no, not back then Jan 12 14:04:10 looks like a palm with scrollwheel Jan 12 14:04:44 somehow, i cant understand why anyone would design smartphones in switzerland of all places Jan 12 14:05:26 better stick to watches and knives Jan 12 14:05:36 and banking Jan 12 14:06:17 haha, while I was looking for pictures of the invair, I found this: http://www.handykoelsch.de/galerie/cebit02b/DSCF0046 Jan 12 14:06:41 if apple is 5 years ahead of the time today, I guess sonyericsson was 10 years ahead back then ^^ Jan 12 14:11:06 Invair Firewalker: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS3614581459.html that was it Jan 12 14:12:55 you entered text by scrolling (via wheel) the vertical bar across the three row keyboard. and then hit one of the big keys, on the side, depending on which character you wanted Jan 12 14:13:05 it was as cumbersome as it sounded Jan 12 14:17:39 duuuthe only thing worse was this: http://home.debitel.net/user/handykoelsch/cebit02b/DSCF0040.jpg Jan 12 14:18:05 it was a similar concept IIRC, but you had to move the whole finger Jan 12 14:18:53 (the last one was actually an input device was regular PCs) Jan 12 14:27:35 morning Jan 12 14:28:01 koen: do you have any zaurus handy? Jan 12 14:28:05 or any device at all Jan 12 14:28:14 koen: could you run some fstests if you have a chance? Jan 12 14:28:18 i'd like to compare raw numbers Jan 12 14:28:24 (and none of my PDAs is in workable state) Jan 12 14:31:16 koen: is it possible to add those missing hardware connections needed for multitouch by soldering? Jan 12 14:32:23 (or even better: have those connections out of box despite having no software support for it) Jan 12 14:35:57 is video playback possible for the new neo? Jan 12 14:36:16 that remains to be seen. personally i doubt that given the performance I've seen on s3c2410 Jan 12 14:36:25 but maybe some assembler handoptimization can do wonders... Jan 12 14:36:43 mickeyl: by the way, you have the +s channel mode set Jan 12 14:36:46 hm, I see Jan 12 14:36:58 remind me... what does +s do again? Jan 12 14:37:25 means "secret" Jan 12 14:37:31 oh, heh Jan 12 14:37:33 should turn that off Jan 12 14:37:37 i.e. if someone else does a /whois someone, it won't show tha tchannel in the list Jan 12 14:38:22 yeah, you can also /msg chanserv set mlock #openmoko -s to enforce the option Jan 12 14:38:24 hi mickeyl Jan 12 14:38:36 yo hrw|work Jan 12 14:38:37 i.e. so it won't be changed in a Freenode reset or something Jan 12 14:38:51 here we are Jan 12 14:39:01 cool Jan 12 14:41:11 * mickeyl reads channel backlog Jan 12 14:41:45 xkr47: getting Gtk+ to work on the Neo was a piece of cake. Ironing out the massive amount of performance problems is a tough job though... I'm working on that atm. Jan 12 14:41:56 xkr47: moko widgets will complement Gtk+ Jan 12 14:42:05 xkr47: stuff like: Jan 12 14:42:39 MokoApplication Jan 12 14:42:41 MokoPanedWindow Jan 12 14:42:45 MokoDialogWindow Jan 12 14:42:54 MokoFingerWheel Jan 12 14:42:57 MokoFingerToolBox Jan 12 14:43:05 ... Jan 12 14:43:27 rule of thumb was: Jan 12 14:43:36 whenever possible, don't invent a new widget, but tweak the styling Jan 12 14:44:05 but since gtk's styling caps are pretty inconsistent and lacking, i had to invent more widgets to get the look and feel done than I'd wanted to Jan 12 14:44:06 Good morning all! Does anyone know if the Neo1973 phone can send Text Messages (SMS)? I would think so, but I am not sure, and its pretty much the way i communicate.... Jan 12 14:44:31 jthomas: yes, text sms will be possible. Jan 12 14:44:39 mms is not planned, but may be added by community Jan 12 14:44:45 good to know! How about T9/predictive text? Jan 12 14:45:02 mms? multimedia...? Jan 12 14:45:32 multimedia message system Jan 12 14:45:37 T9 would have licence issues, no? Jan 12 14:45:50 * Stephmw smells patents too Jan 12 14:45:53 yes, t9 is copyrighted Jan 12 14:45:54 T9 itself might, yeah, but something similar Jan 12 14:45:56 and probably patendet Jan 12 14:46:12 i hope once the phone is out we can come up with something similar Jan 12 14:46:13 is it just me or is running linuxvserver on openmoko somewhat weird? Jan 12 14:46:45 although if it can have a full QWERTY keybd on screen, t9 is not so needed Jan 12 14:46:45 what does linuxvserver do? Jan 12 14:46:45 hey hrw|work Jan 12 14:46:47 jthomas: t9 is must have Jan 12 14:46:58 hi darmou Jan 12 14:47:06 wtf would one need t9 if you can have a full on screen keyboard Jan 12 14:47:09 i never use bloody t9 on my p900 Jan 12 14:47:16 well Jan 12 14:47:25 buz: try to write 300 chars long message using one hand Jan 12 14:47:25 we have that concept called finger apps Jan 12 14:47:44 and there's no way you can use a qwerty on 2.8" with a finger Jan 12 14:47:49 t9 is important, sure. but something similar would be fine, or a keybd would do the trick too. just not as fast, trying to hit the right key on a small screen Jan 12 14:47:51 oh you can Jan 12 14:47:52 so for finger apps it might make sense to go T9 Jan 12 14:47:52 I loved the way steve jobs in the keynote stumbled over trying to input stuff into the on screen keyboard . Persoanlly i would prefer a stylus to using finder. Jan 12 14:48:20 finder=finger Jan 12 14:48:26 i'm still thinking about good predictive text entry Jan 12 14:48:32 something way beyond t9 Jan 12 14:48:40 thats what we need, it needn't be T9 proper Jan 12 14:48:42 more in the league of tengo.com or so Jan 12 14:48:47 coool Jan 12 14:48:52 tengo? Jan 12 14:48:54 * mickeyl checks Jan 12 14:49:05 there's a review on osnews, with high praise Jan 12 14:49:10 they say they achieve 75wpm Jan 12 14:49:17 which is mighty impressive Jan 12 14:49:19 is it FLOSS? Jan 12 14:49:28 freeware/shareware on winmobile Jan 12 14:49:32 jthomas: T9 would only make sense if you had a keyboard? Jan 12 14:49:44 [tengo.net] Jan 12 14:49:47 well you can use t9 on onscreen virtual keyboard Jan 12 14:50:05 T9 would make sense for a number pad; make less sense with a keybd but a keybd might be a PITA Jan 12 14:50:42 tengo thumb looks especially what i would like Jan 12 14:51:05 but a grammar engine is a major PITA to write Jan 12 14:51:20 given that SMS was brought up - will it be posible (with moderate effort) to replace sending SMS over GSM, with SMS over the net with providers that offer HTTP-APIs etc.? Jan 12 14:51:24 I am guessing it should be Jan 12 14:51:25 and good bayesian db would use insane amounts of storage Jan 12 14:52:17 I am talking about services like http://mobilant.de/ Jan 12 14:52:29 mmm... dasher? Jan 12 14:52:55 i know about dasher, but honestly, i just can't make sense out of it Jan 12 14:52:59 perhaps i need more practice Jan 12 14:53:09 dasher is rather good when you get into it Jan 12 14:54:01 yes...it's good, especially when you train it Jan 12 14:55:22 why not http://www.strout.net/info/ideas/hexinput.html ? Jan 12 14:55:25 dasher is patiently weird Jan 12 14:55:29 even on a tablet pc Jan 12 14:55:36 hehe Jan 12 14:55:39 and boy is it slow when you scale the window up Jan 12 14:56:45 it's slow? it seems speedy enougth to me, much more then T9 Jan 12 14:57:23 and it's ready to drive writing in many languages Jan 12 14:57:36 mhh tengo seems to be some sort of T6 (!) on steroids Jan 12 14:58:30 i bet you could use t6 with a thumb Jan 12 15:00:01 azazel: slow as in sucks cpu Jan 12 15:00:35 we will see Jan 12 15:01:13 it has been already ported to many platforms Jan 12 15:01:59 is the gui mockup final? Jan 12 15:02:11 i think there is much which should be improved Jan 12 15:02:16 for example get rid of the scrollbars Jan 12 15:02:43 mickeyl: well you can have a thumb-querty keyboard like the zaurus has, I can get pretty impressive typing speeds on that with two thumbs Jan 12 15:06:28 yeah I love the thumb keyboard also. It is nice to have a pocketop though as I can touch type on it Jan 12 15:07:33 mitsuhiko: why? sure you can do scrolling without it, but with scrollbar can move instantly to any position in big list Jan 12 15:08:54 alphaone: on a 2.5" big screen the scrollbar will be very small Jan 12 15:08:54 i know for example that i never use it on the ipaq Jan 12 15:08:54 you are much faster with the scroll buttons Jan 12 15:09:08 s/use/used/ Jan 12 15:09:08 Who even uses scrollbars on a PC, noone Jan 12 15:09:10 that's why mousewheels are popular Jan 12 15:09:15 it's an indicator of page size Jan 12 15:09:18 yeah Jan 12 15:09:22 yeah. so why not drop them? Jan 12 15:09:23 what would you replace it with? Jan 12 15:09:27 Sencer: but an indicator could be much smaller Jan 12 15:09:37 Sencer: target at top and bottom of page for autoscrolling Jan 12 15:09:42 Sencer: an indicator Jan 12 15:09:46 but not a whole scrollbar Jan 12 15:09:48 how do you see the size and osition within a page? Jan 12 15:09:55 Sencer: press finger on the target and it will scroll Jan 12 15:09:57 osition=position Jan 12 15:10:05 Sencer: just have a 1pixel indicator at the side Jan 12 15:10:19 Sencer: for example a scrollable element could have a border and the border is the indicator Jan 12 15:10:26 with a small running "virtual led" in it Jan 12 15:10:32 maybe 4 px wide Jan 12 15:10:36 like on the ipod Jan 12 15:11:11 out of interest, how can a product be coming out in a month that hasn't confirmed all features yet? Jan 12 15:11:43 apokryphos: which features are missing? Jan 12 15:11:51 the specs look pretty complete too me Jan 12 15:11:52 the hardware is set in stone by now Jan 12 15:11:57 the software is not Jan 12 15:12:05 but that's because it's an open source project more than everything else Jan 12 15:12:10 release early, release often Jan 12 15:12:12 :D Jan 12 15:12:13 why there isn't a wi-fi inyerface? Jan 12 15:12:17 I see Jan 12 15:12:24 uah, not the wifi question again Jan 12 15:12:24 hi all ;) Jan 12 15:12:24 no0tic: and why isn't there usb 2.0? Jan 12 15:12:35 mickeyl, sorry :) Jan 12 15:12:35 those are the two questions i havee Jan 12 15:12:43 mitsuhiko: wondering that too Jan 12 15:12:48 mitsuhiko, me too Jan 12 15:12:50 wifi: too much power consumption, no open chipsets yet Jan 12 15:12:50 usb 1.1 is painfully ancient Jan 12 15:13:02 usb2: because the SOC doesn't handle it Jan 12 15:13:12 mickeyl: SOC? Jan 12 15:13:16 (system on chip, main CPU) Jan 12 15:13:22 :/ Jan 12 15:13:26 ... Jan 12 15:13:34 as to why didn't we use a better SoC... we wanted to concentrate on affordable hardware for v1 Jan 12 15:13:43 and that was a good thing! Jan 12 15:13:52 imho Jan 12 15:13:59 imho as well Jan 12 15:14:05 I agree that affordability is good; usb 1.1 is just fine for most stuff Jan 12 15:14:05 the point is getting a developer platform Jan 12 15:14:09 yeah Jan 12 15:14:14 fancy hardware will come later Jan 12 15:14:15 anywhere I can see more screenies than those on http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html ? Jan 12 15:14:15 looks like i have to buy rev1 and 2 Jan 12 15:14:15 I do use scroll bar on long document sometimes Jan 12 15:14:19 (and besides, bluetooth! ;) Jan 12 15:14:26 w00t Jan 12 15:14:47 I'd also miss no camera, but hey Jan 12 15:14:51 but i think for the gui it's possible to do much more then the current mockups Jan 12 15:14:56 will be available outside USA? Jan 12 15:15:09 no0tic, will be sold direct worldwide Jan 12 15:16:25 apokryphos: with powered USB you can use almost any dicital camera as mass storage (or trough ptp): way better than any mobile ;-) Jan 12 15:16:50 wifi available this way too Jan 12 15:16:59 yeah, my digital cam has 2 gig card Jan 12 15:17:05 but I don't always have it on me Jan 12 15:17:09 btw. is that gps included still up to date? Jan 12 15:17:36 * mjr gets visions of a Bluetooth storage brick in his pants. A hard, long brick... oh, wait Jan 12 15:18:17 mitsuhiko: yes Jan 12 15:18:21 and also, what kind of linux applications will realistically be installable on it? Jan 12 15:18:38 nethack! Jan 12 15:18:40 anything Jan 12 15:18:40 sometimes I think this is too good to be true, that I will awake and realize it was just a dream Jan 12 15:18:43 the most important linux application ever Jan 12 15:18:54 just running some might impose larger problems Jan 12 15:19:08 i.e. kde application Jan 12 15:19:26 aloril: how do you get a powered usb port? Jan 12 15:19:41 apokryphos: umm.. 128MB of ram and 266Mhz CPU and VGA screen are limits Jan 12 15:19:54 benJIman: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ Jan 12 15:19:55 mjr, wow! Jan 12 15:20:07 aloril: how about a console? ;-) Jan 12 15:20:11 can run full KDE on my cyrix 233 w/128mb ram from 11 years ago, shouldn't be a problem Jan 12 15:20:13 benJIman: or maybe hackers lunchbox version includes one? Jan 12 15:20:15 aloril, swap over bluetooth ;] Jan 12 15:20:19 btw. anyone knows about the capabilities regarding graphics? Jan 12 15:20:56 any talks about openmoko at FOSDEM? Jan 12 15:21:10 aloril: and any usb wifi adapters with drivers in 2.6.17? Jan 12 15:21:28 ralink i believe Jan 12 15:21:36 benJIman: the current version? Jan 12 15:21:58 upgrading the kernel should be comparatively simple anyhow Jan 12 15:21:58 xorAxAx: apparently openmoko will ship with 2.6.17 kernel Jan 12 15:22:06 mitsuhiko: EGA, 16 colors of 256 colors Jan 12 15:22:13 benJIman: i mean your kde example Jan 12 15:22:23 xorAxAx: yeah newer ones, older are significantly slower Jan 12 15:22:29 xorAxAx: very funny sir Jan 12 15:22:34 * mjr looks droolingly at small, portable harddisks with BT interfaces. Wonder if they work with Linux... Jan 12 15:22:40 mitsuhiko: please elaborate Jan 12 15:22:41 kde 3.4.x or newer runs quite happily on old hardware Jan 12 15:23:03 someone should do a lightining talk at fosdem, if nothing else, about it Jan 12 15:23:19 xorAxAx: i usually do not develop on embedded devices. is the processor powerful enough to decode and play say mpeg movies? Jan 12 15:23:28 is an user interface with transparent stuff possible Jan 12 15:23:28 etc Jan 12 15:24:10 mpeg1, surely, later mpegs, starts getting iffy and depends on a lot of parameters also... Jan 12 15:24:40 (resolution of native video etc) Jan 12 15:25:15 personally, I'll probably do some scripts to recode video to some low enough quality format to push to the neo Jan 12 15:25:40 ideally one would want h.264 to conserve space Jan 12 15:25:43 but thats surely not gonna work Jan 12 15:25:49 you can forget about that; yeah Jan 12 15:25:49 mpeg4, maybe Jan 12 15:27:04 (I'm not too picky about my video's quality when looking at it on a couple of inch display, so there's leeway in recoding ;) Jan 12 15:27:29 agreed Jan 12 15:27:32 mpeg1 would do Jan 12 15:27:36 but it takes a lot of space Jan 12 15:28:20 yeah, it would be nice if some better compressed format could be used; maybe if one recodes with a low enough res... Jan 12 15:28:33 qvga mpeg4 could work Jan 12 15:28:34 ah well, all depends, can't wait to experiment ;) Jan 12 15:29:04 though i'm a resolution nazi Jan 12 15:30:54 http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/12/apple_lockdown_iphone/ Jan 12 15:36:20 hmm... what kind of video USB 1.1 speed would allow? get CF FPGA and CF card reader (or USB FPGA?) and decode (partially and/or decode?) video there ;-) Jan 12 15:36:31 :þ Jan 12 15:37:03 that's a capital idea. Jan 12 15:37:36 you could decode and then encode to mpeg1 and send that back if speed otherwise not enough Jan 12 15:37:44 minor issue being the fact that CF FPGA runs about 3K usd Jan 12 15:37:46 I'm not sure the uncompressed video could be sent back Jan 12 15:37:53 aloril, ahh Jan 12 15:38:39 buz: yeah, but is that 3K usd only option? Jan 12 15:38:56 have seen only one cf fpga Jan 12 15:39:19 we need to organize a bulk order for this purpose Jan 12 15:39:26 negotiate the price down a bit Jan 12 15:39:38 only if we can bundle it with a v8 Jan 12 15:40:01 (obviously we must not forget the kitchensink, either) Jan 12 15:40:53 and the CF reader. Jan 12 15:41:11 * mjr starts making a shopping list; neo, bt storage device, battery powered hub, preferrably capable of feeding Neo if need be, maximum supported size of microSD... Jan 12 15:41:30 i might wait for v2 Jan 12 15:41:41 I have a feeling I'm going to wait for v2 as well Jan 12 15:41:53 but ooh shiny shiny pretty pretty phone :) Jan 12 15:42:08 what about http://www.easyfpga.com/ or some other USB FPGA? Jan 12 15:42:29 about $200 Jan 12 15:42:51 aloril, fancy, and look, it says it can work self-powered! Jan 12 15:43:33 I guess they program the FPGA into a generator Jan 12 15:47:15 hmm.. wifi card + battery powered hub + cheap digital camera (I think even roughly $100 ones are better than what iPhone includes): now misses only EDGE and multitouch compared to Neo1973 and still cheaper Jan 12 15:47:59 still not given up hope on multitouch .. Jan 12 15:48:09 <_paneb> who exactly is going to sell the phones? Jan 12 15:48:16 it's patented by apple isn't it? Jan 12 15:48:44 _paneb: FIC Jan 12 15:49:53 <_paneb> ah ok; but i would need to pay a contract or something right? Jan 12 15:49:58 why wouldn't h.264 be an option? FMPEG can encode to it... Jan 12 15:50:04 rather, FFMPEG Jan 12 15:50:04 mitsuhiko: hmm.. I hope there is enough prior art Jan 12 15:51:21 There are numerous multi-touch devices that aren't Apple Jan 12 15:51:30 Smart whiteboards mostly Jan 12 15:51:35 jthomas, doesn't it require a bit too much cpu to decode? Jan 12 15:51:46 aloril: it's already patented according to steve jobs Jan 12 15:51:49 that i don't know, but if an iPod can do it Jan 12 15:53:15 mitsuhiko: patents cover only what they explicitly list Jan 12 15:53:27 mitsuhiko: it is highly unlikely that someone could patent "multitouch" Jan 12 15:53:38 mitsuhiko: doesn't mean its valid patent and also software patents should not be valid in Europe Jan 12 15:55:56 goddamn. i hate patents Jan 12 15:55:59 killer of innovation Jan 12 15:56:46 mitsuhiko: also Reality_distortion_field (see wikipedia) (makes people believe he patented it while he probably has applied for patent(s) for some aspects (and maybe mostly for software aspects)) Jan 12 15:56:53 FTIR has been around for a while.. I'm not sure what about multitouch apple could have patented Jan 12 15:57:29 we're going to need some KDE/GNOME graphical tools (maybe just written in Bash with Zenity). For example, a nice GUI app to transcode videos; others i am sure can be thought of as well... Jan 12 15:57:43 mitsuhiko: still agree, I prefer invention not to be made if result is that it will be locked under patent Jan 12 15:58:07 because in that case there is still possibility that somebody invents and doesn't patent it Jan 12 15:59:32 what we really need is: "Cute & Lovely Hands free Doll" Jan 12 15:59:36 not making this up: http://www.fic.com.tw/product/gt126.aspx Jan 12 16:02:01 wtf, i don't get it! lost in translation? maybe its supposed to say, "Simple Hands-free *call*" Jan 12 16:12:55 regarding Apple's patents, here's a sample search URL: http://patft.uspto.gov/netacgi/nph-Parser?Sect1=PTO2&Sect2=HITOFF&u=%2Fnetahtml%2FPTO%2Fsearch-adv.htm&r=0&p=1&f=S&l=50&Query=an%2F%28Apple+and+Computer%29+%0D%0Aand+spec%2F%28touch+and+%28screen+or+display%29%29%0D%0A&d=PTXT Jan 12 16:13:28 yields 177 results which I don't have enough time to read. Tune the terms and maybe find what Jobs is on about Jan 12 16:36:55 hmm.. I don't I have seen this question answered (seen question several times on mailing list though): can you 'download' compressed GSM audio data? Jan 12 16:37:19 ie.. what comes from line and store that as voicemail instead of decompressing it to audio and then again compressing it using some different codec Jan 12 16:38:59 you gotta be kidding me Jan 12 16:39:06 apple renames the iphone to itouch Jan 12 16:39:16 haha Jan 12 16:39:26 s/line/radiowaves/ Jan 12 16:39:26 doesnt really get any worse than that Jan 12 16:39:27 aloril meant: ie.. what comes from radiowaves and store that as voicemail instead of decompressing it to audio and then again compressing it using some different codec Jan 12 16:39:27 aloril: do you have the necessary codecs? :) Jan 12 16:39:36 an besides, itouch is already a logitech product Jan 12 16:39:48 xorAxAx: decoding raw GSM stream? hmm... Jan 12 16:40:16 plus, hey, "iTouch - leading global provider of mobile, voice and interactive services " Jan 12 16:40:18 aloril: yes, amr-nb, efr, etc. Jan 12 16:40:32 that's obviously not the same domain, sure Jan 12 16:40:38 can apple be that stupid? Jan 12 16:41:17 now AP claims the news is wrong Jan 12 16:41:18 buz: they just have to find a name where the compay doesnt want too high fees Jan 12 16:41:23 xorAxAx: well.. is that decoding currently done in separate GSM system? (your answer seems to hint that) Jan 12 16:41:29 yeah where they can outright buy it Jan 12 16:41:46 aloril: i dont think that it is done in software Jan 12 16:42:09 aloril: i guess that the gsm chip will either deliver pcm data or an analogous audio pin Jan 12 16:46:20 xorAxAx: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Adaptive_Multi-Rate seems to have some links to source code and docs Jan 12 16:47:21 cool Jan 12 16:52:59 even better would be if you could store AMR-NB compressed audio and then later use GSM chip to decode it Jan 12 16:53:49 138 total (was) in channel, new record? Jan 12 16:58:09 And now, Chapter 2: In which the OpenMoko platform TOTALLY SMOKES the iPhone. Jan 12 16:58:32 closed iphone and zaurus EOL Jan 12 16:58:40 Because all the third-party and GNU-GPL'd apps will run on the Neo and its successors, but not on the iPhone. Jan 12 16:58:44 * koen suspects moko will get some more attention next week Jan 12 16:59:03 aloril: ask mickey|bbl or LaF0rge if that is possible Jan 12 16:59:12 man, closed iphone. That's so good to hear. Because I had been waffeling on which one to get until I heard. Jan 12 16:59:34 I would have bin Pissed with a capital P if I had bought one not realizing that it was closed. Jan 12 16:59:46 it's a US cell phone Jan 12 16:59:49 what do you expect? Jan 12 17:00:05 but it's APPLE. I root for apple most of the time. Jan 12 17:00:41 But when apple does something really boneheaded, I won't support them. And unfortunately, they have made a few boneheaded moves lately. Jan 12 17:00:47 First, closing the OSX kernel. Jan 12 17:01:10 Then, ignoring security specialists about bugs and vulnerabilities in OSX/bundled apps. Jan 12 17:01:30 Now, releasing the next killer piece of hardware without any compatability with third-party apps, thus closed to innovation. Jan 12 17:01:41 mickey|bbl, nice! thanks for the info Jan 12 17:02:17 i'm also not sure what the point of [apple]tv is... unless you have a lot of itunes videos Jan 12 17:02:27 they're going right up against the (also closed) 360 and it's video stuffs Jan 12 17:02:45 openmoko was announced long ago, funny if it beats Apple to market? Jan 12 17:02:47 But they have to. It's an arms race between Microsoft and Apple for the living room. Jan 12 17:03:07 [apple]tv needs to do more then Jan 12 17:03:10 Sony thinks they're in there too, but nobody is buying PS3s. Jan 12 17:03:17 it really should be a full mac Jan 12 17:03:23 koen: oh? interesting... some announcement coming? (I guess you can't tell ;-) Jan 12 17:03:38 just a feeling Jan 12 17:03:51 zaurus went eol in the us a long time ago Jan 12 17:04:13 cbpage: it's now EOL in .jp as well Jan 12 17:04:16 I'm going to start the Mobuntu project: ubuntu on mobile devices. Anybody with me? Jan 12 17:04:19 bummer Jan 12 17:04:20 oh no Jan 12 17:04:27 PirateHead: heh Jan 12 17:04:54 so the 3200 was the last in a cherished line Jan 12 17:04:55 PirateHead: I take mjubuntu failed miserable? (as I predicted) Jan 12 17:05:14 koen: never heard of mjubuntu, googling now =D Jan 12 17:05:31 µbuntu in the ubuntu wiki Jan 12 17:05:37 Your search - mjubuntu - did not match any documents. Jan 12 17:05:40 wtf? Jan 12 17:06:00 PirateHead: µbuntu Jan 12 17:06:03 hopefully openmoko phones will pick up the slack Jan 12 17:06:27 cbpage: hopefully OM users won't be so *&(@&*$@#& clueless Jan 12 17:06:27 openmoko is gonna be a whole new revolution Jan 12 17:06:39 quants: I absolutely think so. Jan 12 17:06:56 quants: I think that we, as the community, can make the OpenMoko platform totally outperform anything else. Jan 12 17:07:11 problem with making a zaurus-phone is that japan has even less (i.e. no) gsm than we do Jan 12 17:07:14 (the us does, that is!) Jan 12 17:07:26 does it use sim cards? Jan 12 17:07:40 * koen wonders when the first 'cloners' rear their ugly head Jan 12 17:07:50 quants: does [what] use sim cards? Jan 12 17:07:50 can I just insert my sim card into it? Jan 12 17:07:54 OM Jan 12 17:08:17 it won't work without a simcard I suspect Jan 12 17:08:17 i *hope* there are openmoko "clone" phones - as long as they have the same openness Jan 12 17:08:17 ;) Jan 12 17:08:21 koen: bring on the cloners! anybody else who wants to release open-source phones and start a hardware competition, go ahead. Jan 12 17:08:30 I don't want cingular to know Jan 12 17:08:30 cbpage: not hw cloners, software cloners Jan 12 17:08:45 quants, yes, your GSM sim should work. Unless it's locked somehow to the spesific phone. Jan 12 17:08:49 ahhhh :P Jan 12 17:08:53 i think they'll all be chasing apple anyhow Jan 12 17:09:00 the people that copy the binaries and changes some images and go "OMG!!! 1337!!!!" Jan 12 17:09:05 ugh i hate those Jan 12 17:09:11 without realizing the source is out there Jan 12 17:09:24 I am gonna put a sip phone on mine, and have freeworlddialup, and my cell account as two lines Jan 12 17:09:34 koen: as long as they keep it all open source =D Jan 12 17:09:43 we'll know openmoko's made it when motorola supports openmoko/ezx on at least one common phone Jan 12 17:09:49 koen: if they include GPL'd stuff in their closed-source phones, we sue\ Jan 12 17:10:11 cbpage: I doubt moto is so cluefull Jan 12 17:10:27 cbpage: if they were, they would have stopped making crap phone GUIs long ago Jan 12 17:10:34 moto was a key point in the GPL3 argument Jan 12 17:10:51 koen: here here Jan 12 17:10:58 point Jan 12 17:11:01 moto are asses Jan 12 17:11:19 especially the 'asian firmware' I had on my a780 Jan 12 17:11:24 it could do anything Jan 12 17:11:31 except making calls easily Jan 12 17:11:33 i think the us has a skewed perspective overall... look at verizon's imposed ui stuff Jan 12 17:12:02 cbpage: "what!?!? you can change your background for free?!?!" Jan 12 17:12:05 lol Jan 12 17:12:08 s/background/wallpaper/ Jan 12 17:12:08 koen meant: cbpage: "what!?!? you can change your wallpaper for free?!?!" Jan 12 17:12:22 the key point of the OM revolution is the cell providers have zero say in design Jan 12 17:12:36 yeah :) Jan 12 17:12:38 koen: the way I see a successful mobuntu project operating is as an extension of ubuntu, removing most of the apps and replacing with "superlite" apps, including mobile apps like soft keyboards, and integrating systems like OpenMoko (and possibly qTopia?) Jan 12 17:12:45 the key point is that you can't buy it in a store :( Jan 12 17:13:03 yet.... Jan 12 17:13:35 amazon has always sold unlocked nokia's Jan 12 17:13:55 PirateHead: that won't work Jan 12 17:13:56 nokia sells a few unlocked models to Jan 12 17:13:58 o Jan 12 17:14:05 PirateHead: that's still desktop thinking Jan 12 17:14:51 wonder if we can use the zaurus port for vlc? Jan 12 17:14:57 aaaaaaaaaaaargh Jan 12 17:14:59 koen: I don't know the diffference between desktop thinking and mobile thinking then, I guess. Jan 12 17:15:18 stop abusing 'port' Jan 12 17:15:35 koen: sorry you're wrong Jan 12 17:15:45 * koen <- release manager for embedded distributions for the past 3 years Jan 12 17:15:50 vlc did make a zaurus port Jan 12 17:16:01 koen: the point is that I want a slimmed-down version of firefox to work on my phone, easily available from an ubuntu-style repository, with alternatives side-by-side, etc Jan 12 17:16:09 it needs a UI from what I remember Jan 12 17:16:35 a port to a new arch Jan 12 17:16:37 koen: this is just speaking as a consumer. I've never worked with mobile devices. I don't even own a smartphone, the Neo will be my first. Jan 12 17:16:44 PirateHead: OpenMoko has apt-get. Jan 12 17:16:50 jjazz: no, it hasn't Jan 12 17:16:54 jjazz: it has ipkg Jan 12 17:17:00 ipkg-get Jan 12 17:17:04 koen: Right, which is very similar to apt-get Jan 12 17:17:20 quants: vlc has a 'pda' gui Jan 12 17:17:25 quants: still not a port Jan 12 17:17:40 jjazz, koen: does ipkg access debian-style repositories and packages? Jan 12 17:17:40 quants: the 'zaurus' port they has is an abomination Jan 12 17:17:51 koen: the core vlc was ported from its parent arch x86 Jan 12 17:18:23 PirateHead: what do you mean by debian-style? Jan 12 17:18:28 koen: was lineo porting to ppc not a port? Jan 12 17:18:42 quants: it's still not a 'zaurus port' Jan 12 17:18:50 jjazz: .deb files, with the debian archetecture and packaging regimen, etc? Jan 12 17:19:08 jjazz: or do we have a whole new .ipkg format and new rules to learn? Jan 12 17:19:17 PirateHead: ipkg isn't new Jan 12 17:19:25 ipkg is pretty close to deb and it's been around for years Jan 12 17:19:27 so openbsd's cats port, is not a port? Jan 12 17:19:45 PirateHead: In fact, there are shell script wrappers that let you do apt-get foo and such so you can pretend it's apt-get Jan 12 17:19:47 quants: cats nor zaurus are architectures Jan 12 17:20:14 koen: you're starting to make some sence Jan 12 17:20:16 jjazz: forgive me, I didn't know. I'm only familier with arch linux's pacman, gentoo's emerge, debian's apt, and redhat's package manager. Oh, and slackware's .tgz Jan 12 17:20:22 jjazz: who uses ipkg? Jan 12 17:20:40 PirateHead: how often do you think consumers open a terminal on their phones and type in "apt-get install foo"? Jan 12 17:20:43 zaurus does Jan 12 17:20:54 PirateHead: http://handhelds.org/moin/moin.cgi/Ipkg Jan 12 17:21:12 quants: stop comminicating badly Jan 12 17:21:17 koen: that's not what they do. They press the GUI button that executes said command. My points is that, as a software developer, I am going to have to *write* said command. Jan 12 17:21:18 lol Jan 12 17:21:22 quants: 'zaurus' refers to a machine line Jan 12 17:21:32 quants: not an OS, distribution or package format Jan 12 17:21:39 zaurus does use ipkg Jan 12 17:21:48 no, it doesn't Jan 12 17:22:00 he asked, and you're acting like a self important idiot Jan 12 17:22:03 if I install fedora on my c700 'zaurus' uses rpm Jan 12 17:22:26 sorry the zaurus as sold by Sharp Jan 12 17:22:34 quants: you're saying the base install uses ipkg, I get you Jan 12 17:22:36 you mean "most distributions that run on the sharp zaurus line use ipkg" Jan 12 17:22:39 the zaurus product does Jan 12 17:22:53 koen: no Jan 12 17:23:00 I said what I meant Jan 12 17:23:12 * jjazz beats quants about the head for even the slightest linguistic imprecision. Jan 12 17:23:18 Bad quants! Jan 12 17:23:26 one more line of this stupidity, and I'm setting ingore Jan 12 17:23:31 your statement is about as true as "nokia use symbian" Jan 12 17:24:03 nokia is not a product Jan 12 17:24:51 my phone isn't a product? Jan 12 17:25:22 koen: I've had enough good bye Jan 12 17:25:36 PirateHead: that link I posted mentions that ipkg supports .deb Jan 12 17:25:59 jjazz: i saw, and that's a good feature. :-) Jan 12 17:26:05 the *current* ipkg uses a .deb compatible format (ar wrapped tarballs) Jan 12 17:26:47 the 'zaurus' (in quants funny little world) uses an other ipkg format (tgz inside tgz) Jan 12 17:27:01 hence my insistance on using proper terms Jan 12 17:28:17 i wonder how many non-jp users actually use sharproms, though Jan 12 17:28:18 ;) Jan 12 17:28:29 PirateHead: anyway, OpenEmbedded takes care of building *and* packaging, so you (or other developers) don't have to worry about packaging Jan 12 17:28:52 PirateHead: and openmoko has a gui packagemanager as well, so you don't even have to know what it uses :) Jan 12 17:28:56 I only just switched to OZ Jan 12 17:29:15 once I found out it was a fresh port Jan 12 17:29:26 koen: well, if it's really all that easy, it'll be nice. Jan 12 17:29:38 PirateHead: it is :) Jan 12 17:29:50 koen: I still haven't figured out how to get openembedded working, but I'm in the process. Jan 12 17:29:54 but - will it blend? Jan 12 17:30:06 koen: hopefully I'll be climbing the learning curve by the time the Neo is released Jan 12 17:30:08 Sencer: blend? Jan 12 17:30:18 _everything_ blends ;) Jan 12 17:30:23 PirateHead: it's a pretty steep learning curve Jan 12 17:30:24 Sencer: it will frappe, but not blend Jan 12 17:30:30 PirateHead: god I hope not Jan 12 17:30:31 Sencer: I've heard "will it blend?" a few times on digg and slashdot. Where does that little phrase/in-joke come from? Jan 12 17:30:37 PirateHead: hence my advice to get started no, instead of after the release Jan 12 17:30:57 re: will it blend? - search for it on youtube. It's better you see it. Jan 12 17:31:14 the sooner OM is out the better, with all those nasty iphones looming in the distance Jan 12 17:31:31 for example: http://youtube.com/watch?v=6Wa9SmK_A3E Jan 12 17:31:34 quants: The iphone is great for the moko. Jan 12 17:31:48 not the legal side Jan 12 17:32:00 quants: How so? Jan 12 17:32:10 that is what I'm affraid of Jan 12 17:32:22 the fight for dominance Jan 12 17:32:48 quants: there will be no fight for dominance. The iphone is closed, no third party apps, much less open-source ones. Jan 12 17:32:52 quants: Apple is going to spend a lot of money to make people want the moko. It's a really good development. Jan 12 17:33:12 quants: everybody who wants to control their wireless device will choose openmoko; those who wish to be controlled by their wireless devices will choose the iphone. Jan 12 17:33:13 quants: And the moko will do more for less, just because it will have a dev community. Jan 12 17:33:16 Apple might then do everything they can to kill it Jan 12 17:33:17 at least now people cant complain about the touchscreen anymore Jan 12 17:33:19 jjazz: I agree. In fact the iPhone announcement is how I learned about the Neo Jan 12 17:33:30 Sencer: brilliant! Jan 12 17:33:38 same here Jan 12 17:33:49 sencer: that is awesome leventhal too! Jan 12 17:34:04 welcome to the chatroom guys =D Jan 12 17:34:15 i wanted the iphone right until one of the sales guys said he wanted devs to be able to write little applets and widgets Jan 12 17:34:22 and then jobs made that whole west coast comment.. Jan 12 17:34:46 i wanted to make the iphone control a roomba damnit! Jan 12 17:34:48 What west coast comment? Jan 12 17:34:53 that is Cingular talking btw Jan 12 17:35:08 no, cingular sells winmo and palmos phones that can take apps Jan 12 17:35:13 nnpiggy: Jobs is down with west coast rap. He knows who shot Tupac, but won't tell anybody. Jan 12 17:35:19 that is why moto hashed their linux Jan 12 17:35:25 nnpiggy: jobs said that Apple isn't going to let some poorly written application take down Cingulair's whole "west-coast" network. Jan 12 17:35:32 .You don.t want your phone to be an open platform,. meaning that anyone can write applications for it and potentially gum up the provider's network, says Jobs. .You need it to work when you need it to work. Cingular doesn.t want to see their West Coast network go down because some application messed up." Jan 12 17:35:34 *blink* Jan 12 17:35:41 sounds like a crappy network Jan 12 17:35:47 I still don't understand why that would be a problem Jan 12 17:35:52 it's not Jan 12 17:35:55 i was on the network when it was under at&t - it sucked then Jan 12 17:35:55 isn't that what At&T used to say about landline phones? Jan 12 17:35:57 Cingular already has blackberries and everything running around on their network Jan 12 17:36:00 although I have heard an mvista employee state the same for the neo Jan 12 17:36:07 It sounds like FUD from Jobs... Jan 12 17:36:25 yes it does Jan 12 17:36:31 FUD ALERT Jan 12 17:36:31 Cingular is affraid of UNIX-like systems Jan 12 17:36:32 mhh i wouldnt want to be cingular customer if one app can take their whole cellphone network down, really Jan 12 17:36:33 if you have that many problems someone's bound to make phreaking apps using gsm pcmcia or cf cards Jan 12 17:36:37 source: the Almighty Steve Jobs Jan 12 17:36:38 I thing you can replace 'network' with 'profit' Jan 12 17:36:47 Apple needs to control the user experience. It's what they do, and their customers like it. Jan 12 17:36:58 that and the cold shoulder to canadians put me off iphone Jan 12 17:37:05 jjazz: you hit it on the dot Jan 12 17:37:15 historically most phone hackers just want free stuff ;) Jan 12 17:37:24 apple is microsoft with a sense of style Jan 12 17:37:26 freedom! Jan 12 17:37:39 yeah, because we all know free and freedom are very near ;) Jan 12 17:37:47 quants, do you have a reference for your comment about Moto Linux? Jan 12 17:37:55 it's better than theft Jan 12 17:38:16 well, you'll get (basically) free sms with the Neo Jan 12 17:38:18 nnpiggy: msg me, and I'll find it later Jan 12 17:38:20 * cbpage notes jobs and woz were in the phreaking scene about 30-35 years ago ;) Jan 12 17:39:18 moto made a hash of their kernel, and prevented modified kernels from running Jan 12 17:39:34 sounds like something moto would do, yes Jan 12 17:39:48 fsf was pissed Jan 12 17:39:53 ouch - i thought the openezx people were getting images on the phones Jan 12 17:39:58 I can run modified kernels on my moto Jan 12 17:40:17 there's gotta be a way to circumvent it Jan 12 17:40:19 there always is Jan 12 17:40:24 it was their first phone with linux Jan 12 17:40:30 one or two dark_alex types and your closed device is pwnt Jan 12 17:40:37 buz: if you're the NSA Jan 12 17:40:37 buz: not with Trusted Computing!!!!!!!!!!!!! Jan 12 17:40:52 assuming the TCM really works, yes Jan 12 17:41:02 and is bug free Jan 12 17:41:07 look at the cat+mouse game that is the psp scene Jan 12 17:41:10 the newest moto phones has SElinux Jan 12 17:41:16 but don't enable it Jan 12 17:41:20 ROTFL Jan 12 17:41:27 /win/win 21 Jan 12 17:41:27 well their phones are slow as it is Jan 12 17:41:29 pardon Jan 12 17:43:15 this might not be an question anyone here can answer, but here goes: if myself and two other guys write a program and GPL it, and one of us dies, can the other two change the license without the third one's consent? Jan 12 17:43:35 did the iphone rumors happen before or after the OM announcment Jan 12 17:43:40 i don't think so - copyright extendes far after death Jan 12 17:43:45 probably only if the other guys heirs agree Jan 12 17:43:47 before, but nobody had details Jan 12 17:44:11 PirateHead: Copyrights will pass with the estate. Jan 12 17:44:41 Alrighty, thanks for answers. I just wondered how that worked. Jan 12 17:45:11 PirateHead: you can always solve it with some bilateral contract Jan 12 17:45:37 but this is really for lawyers Jan 12 17:46:35 PirateHead: you are not going to kill anybody are you? :P Jan 12 17:47:25 139 in channel, new record again? we must be getting quite publicity Jan 12 17:47:54 sannes: nah Jan 12 17:48:05 sannes: that would be so *not* free software! Jan 12 17:48:25 I wonder if that means that there will be 139 preorders subsecond after release.. heh Jan 12 17:48:40 PirateHead: true :) Jan 12 17:49:04 minus early access people Jan 12 17:50:14 PirateHead: If you have an actual GPL issue, you can ask the FSF or the SFLC for some advice. Jan 12 17:53:31 someone just asked on the mailing list about kernel hacking and bricking worries - anyone know how the bootloader's set up? Jan 12 17:54:16 as long as you don't mess with the bootloader you can't brick it Jan 12 17:54:45 cool - sd and/or usb recovery then? Jan 12 17:55:39 glad it's got brick protection :) Jan 12 17:56:14 afaik usb recovery Jan 12 17:57:33 cool Jan 12 17:58:20 * jjazz is confused by OE Jan 12 17:58:53 jjazz: yeah, OutlookExpress can be confusing. (j/k) Jan 12 17:59:08 * cbpage looks at usb gadget support Jan 12 17:59:19 Sencer: I'm lucky enough never to have seen Outlook. I understand it's a nightmare. Jan 12 17:59:28 the ethernet gadget driver looks nifty. Jan 12 18:00:21 i can't wait to get nmea and bridged gprs data going over both usb and bluetooth :) Jan 12 18:01:44 how many phones with gps export it as a bluetooth gps? Jan 12 18:01:52 *standalone-type Jan 12 18:05:25 will it have netfilter? I hear Harald Welte is working on it as well^^ Jan 12 18:05:43 probably - i want to use it to NAT the gprs connection :) Jan 12 18:05:44 Sencer: if not, you can add it yourself Jan 12 18:06:06 harald also mentioned 'call firewalling' Jan 12 18:06:23 i want to get it so i can press a button and have the phone log into gprs, and then you can connect using bt and/or usb at the same time without dialing on the pc side Jan 12 18:06:27 Sencer: btw 'LaF0rge' = harald Jan 12 18:06:30 koen: call as in phone call? Jan 12 18:06:34 oooh Jan 12 18:06:41 Sencer: call as in phonecall Jan 12 18:06:47 can a bluetooth stack handle multiple connections at once? i think so but i forget Jan 12 18:07:26 . o O (GPRS linked up to 4 computers at once... the pain, the very cool pain) Jan 12 18:08:06 cbpage: you might be fat, if you just manually read and type the bits... Jan 12 18:08:14 s/fat/faster Jan 12 18:08:25 ;) Jan 12 18:08:40 sometimes gprs/cell-data is the only net access around though, especially if you're moving Jan 12 18:09:05 Sencer: transparant proxy using squid :) Jan 12 18:10:16 koen: mmmh, squid, now I am getting hungry Jan 12 18:15:26 squid caching to flash Jan 12 18:15:30 that's gonna last long Jan 12 18:16:00 PirateHead: you'd have to get permission from the copyright holder, ie whoever inherited the copyright from the person who died. Jan 12 18:16:39 benJIman: thanks, you're a little (read: half an hour?) late, though. =D Jan 12 18:17:13 are there any details about security-concerns and how they will be dealt with? Like restricting access to certain parts of the phone (phonebook, making calls, sending sms etc.). Or will it be assumed, that once you install an application you better know what it's going to do? Jan 12 18:17:14 PirateHead: I didn't see any answer Jan 12 18:17:50 What will the Neo1973's highest-bandwidth connection be? Jan 12 18:18:04 Does it have anything faster than USB 1.1? Jan 12 18:18:32 is it UMTS or edge? Jan 12 18:18:37 PirateHead: depends on how fast you can insert an sd-card ^^ Jan 12 18:18:41 quants: neither nor Jan 12 18:18:42 fraid not, and it's just gprs iirc Jan 12 18:18:53 EDGE isn't used here anyway Jan 12 18:19:14 haha sencer. I'm wondering for networking reasons, obviously. Jan 12 18:19:23 I wonder what kind of bandwidth I'm going to be able to fit into ti. Jan 12 18:19:26 ouch gprs is slow Jan 12 18:19:27 PirateHead: what speed is bluetooth? Jan 12 18:19:37 and there are no edge networks Jan 12 18:19:49 there are here Jan 12 18:19:53 where's here? Jan 12 18:19:56 .us Jan 12 18:19:57 usb1.1 > bluetooth Jan 12 18:20:15 benJIman: I don't know, I have never used bluetooth devices. Being wireless and low-signal-strength, I'm guessing it's slower than USB 1.1 Jan 12 18:20:29 PirateHead: in any case usb 1.1 is likely to be fast enough Jan 12 18:20:32 2.1 with highspeed 2.0 equipment Jan 12 18:20:34 yeah it is Jan 12 18:20:39 considering you havn't even got anything high capacity on the phone Jan 12 18:20:43 what would you need the bandwidth for Jan 12 18:20:59 web browsing Jan 12 18:21:06 voip Jan 12 18:21:09 need the bandwidth for streaming video and web browsing Jan 12 18:21:13 usb 1.1 is fast enough Jan 12 18:21:16 for that Jan 12 18:21:17 in doubt, porn Jan 12 18:21:42 xorAxAx: lolz, porn in mini-resolution Jan 12 18:21:48 postage-stamp pr0nz Jan 12 18:21:52 your limiting factor is going to be the wireless network speed, unless you have a really good connection anyway Jan 12 18:22:13 quants: seems to be all 3g not edge here Jan 12 18:22:15 we need 3.5G Jan 12 18:22:20 benJIman: my network gets 200-300 kb/s in Jan 12 18:22:30 PirateHead: on GPRS? Jan 12 18:22:32 without edge? Jan 12 18:22:37 I think edge was 2.5G Jan 12 18:22:38 benJIman, no ADSL! Jan 12 18:22:46 ...I mean xoraxax Jan 12 18:22:55 PirateHead: and that matters why? Jan 12 18:23:13 xoraxax: somebody said that the limit of data transfer would be limited by your internet connection Jan 12 18:23:23 and I'm saying my DSL gives me more kb/s than USB can pipe Jan 12 18:23:28 what's the latency of 3g anyhow? Jan 12 18:23:28 PirateHead: by your mobile internet connection Jan 12 18:23:43 PirateHead: and if you're at home to use your adsl you could just use your PC ^_^ Jan 12 18:24:38 you're both right, my home network speed doesn't really matter Jan 12 18:24:52 gprs >> edge >> 3G >> umts in order of bandwidth Jan 12 18:24:54 Piratehead: I did webbrowsing on my Sonyericsson p900 via bluetooth on my home-network. Took me a day until it worked, and then I only used it once. It's a) too slow to be fun (might have been the machine as well) and b) you are limited by the range. Jan 12 18:24:59 it's no fun, really Jan 12 18:25:19 Sencer: i never got that quite working Jan 12 18:25:26 but i figured it was kinda pointless Jan 12 18:25:28 sencer: I will never "browse the web" using a mobile device. Jan 12 18:25:40 sencer: at most, I'd check email or do IRC or IM Jan 12 18:25:48 buz: yeah, it was. It was nice trying out google's midp- maps app. But that was it. Jan 12 18:25:51 I'd google from a handheld Jan 12 18:26:01 i'd read wiki Jan 12 18:26:07 quants: you can google from a handheld using SMS Jan 12 18:26:08 whenever we got into discussions Jan 12 18:26:13 I ssh and google from my handheld Jan 12 18:26:17 PirateHead: wow Jan 12 18:26:22 Keeps me busy on ths bus Jan 12 18:26:29 you could just use your telephone joker and ring a friend Jan 12 18:26:43 Sencer: i sometimes did that Jan 12 18:26:47 have em google stuff for me ;) Jan 12 18:27:06 i'm weird, i know Jan 12 18:27:15 yeah, apparently I have the image of "always-online" person, so I get calls like that from time to time... Jan 12 18:28:19 online happened to me once or so Jan 12 18:28:39 something along the line "WTF can we find a mechanic for the broken down car???" Jan 12 18:28:51 oh and my gf once called asking for directions, too ;) Jan 12 19:18:39 nnpiggy: I hope you got my links? freenode seems to be setting me up the bomb? Jan 12 19:25:03 quants: no links got posted in this channel afai can see Jan 12 19:27:58 Sencer: no we were in //msg Jan 12 19:29:00 not it, but same line of thought: http://mobile.newsforge.com/mobility/06/02/01/1655248.shtml?tid=104&tid=25&tid=98 Jan 12 19:29:14 "I was interested in writing a lightweight kernel to play with on the Motorola e815 and similar phones. Compiling binaries for the phone's cpu is no big deal, but the phone requires its kernel to be digitally signed." Jan 12 19:29:28 http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/02/07/2057240 Jan 12 19:29:39 by Anonymous Coward on Tuesday February 07, @05:12PM (#14663962) Jan 12 19:29:58 google: motorola+linux+phone+kernel+gpl Jan 12 19:57:29 koen: low noise the last hour :) Jan 12 20:00:07 HAY GUYZ WHEN CAN I BUY TEH NIO Jan 12 20:00:17 hee hee Jan 12 20:00:23 omg Jan 12 20:01:05 I RELY WANT TO HAVE A LINUX FONE WILL IT HAVE WIFI Jan 12 20:01:23 s/#openmoko/#the doomed phone channel Jan 12 20:01:28 thedaniel: AND FPGA Jan 12 20:01:51 IT HAS TO HAVE 3G OR IT WILL BE A FAILYURE Jan 12 20:01:54 WILL SUPPORT ALL UPPERCASE? Jan 12 20:02:50 I'm hoping we'll evolve away from mice interfaces Jan 12 20:03:42 hi, all Jan 12 20:04:34 I was wondering if it had yet occurred to anyone that the orange OM logo looks a bit like and angry Indian? Jan 12 20:06:14 also, since the phone claims support for 2.5G and Bluetooth, but no WiFi, I was wondering if the hardware would enable one to use it as a Bluetooth modem (as the Verizon reps tell me it won't happen from here til whenever they decide to care, though there are VCast phones with Bluetooth) Jan 12 20:06:50 should work. Jan 12 20:07:13 I love my ericson bt modem Jan 12 20:07:22 it's so dumb Jan 12 20:07:32 nothingman: should be no problem Jan 12 20:07:36 well, "should work" and "we plan to support it" are two essentially different things Jan 12 20:07:54 a VCast with Bluetooth and a little hacking "should work" as a Bluetooth modem Jan 12 20:08:20 * skome doesn't see Verizon in the room. Jan 12 20:08:51 up to us to make that happen w/this device. I have heard similar ideas, so maybe it will be developed Jan 12 20:09:40 also, I was wondering, since there appears to be a default color scheme, if anyone's thought of making just that aspect of the UI changeable -- say, if the icons were SVG, having those parts that conformed to the scheme coded to a default color but referencing a user-selected color that could be set from an applet Jan 12 20:10:35 "since the phone claims support for 2.5G" could someone explain what that means? Jan 12 20:10:45 what exactly is 2.5ghz Jan 12 20:10:46 my whole interest is around sip support Jan 12 20:10:48 Psi: grps I guess Jan 12 20:10:52 hm.. Jan 12 20:10:59 2.5 generation Jan 12 20:11:09 ah Jan 12 20:11:21 3G 3rd generation Jan 12 20:11:35 * Psi goes to google the differences between 2.5 and 3 Jan 12 20:11:50 i think that calling the gprs in the neo 2.5g is misleading Jan 12 20:11:52 1G - before gprs, 2G/2.5G - gprs, 3G - umts Jan 12 20:11:53 2G + GPRS := 2.5G --http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gprs Jan 12 20:12:03 i think that is often understood to mean EDGE inint? Jan 12 20:12:13 2G was gprs, 2.5G is edge, 3G ?, 3.5G hspada? Jan 12 20:12:27 ah Jan 12 20:12:39 UMTS Jan 12 20:12:39 Isn't EDGE CDMA tech? Jan 12 20:12:46 naw Jan 12 20:12:47 skome: no Jan 12 20:12:50 k Jan 12 20:13:01 skome: UMTS is related to (w)cdma Jan 12 20:13:05 so what does 2.5g mean to the average person who wants to use internet from their phone? Jan 12 20:13:08 just faster speed? Jan 12 20:13:11 it's 100Kbps or so dprs Jan 12 20:13:12 *gprs Jan 12 20:13:22 Psi: it's faster than GPRS, but slower than 3G Jan 12 20:13:22 (edge that is) Jan 12 20:13:27 Sketch, ah Jan 12 20:13:29 thanks Jan 12 20:13:30 edge is less slow gprs Jan 12 20:13:50 * Psi wonders if its supported here Jan 12 20:13:58 * Psi goes to find out Jan 12 20:14:20 "less slow" - I like that description Jan 12 20:14:32 yah, I was mixed up w/UMTS Jan 12 20:15:00 I'm not sure what umts really is? Jan 12 20:15:08 on wikipedia somebody wrote: "Whether EDGE is 2G or 3G depends on implementation. While Class 3 and below EDGE devices clearly are not 3G, class 4 and above devices perform at a higher bandwidth than other technologies conventionally considered as 3G (such as 1xRTT). Because of the variability, EDGE is generally classified as 2.75G network technology. Jan 12 20:15:26 I know haspada what ever is the only real service Jan 12 20:16:06 crap Jan 12 20:16:11 3.5G is better tech edge sux Jan 12 20:16:12 my cell phone died Jan 12 20:16:22 none of these solutions provide low latency do they? Jan 12 20:16:24 and the openmoko isn't here Jan 12 20:16:27 they're all 200ms and up? Jan 12 20:16:45 spikebik1: might as well just kill yourself now mate Jan 12 20:18:33 myren: i think that's more of a function of distance than anything Jan 12 20:18:33 sigh Jan 12 20:18:54 guess I could get a rokr e2 or A1200 Jan 12 20:19:02 seems like that's as close as you get today Jan 12 20:19:25 you could get something cheap through the carrier Jan 12 20:19:31 sorry, got disconnected Jan 12 20:19:34 skome: any ideas on how that would be accomplished? Do you think that the LG and Motorola designers are deliberately avoiding bridging the two interfaces? Would software be able to handle it? Come to think of it, I know nothing of Bluetooth standards: can that handle passing along 3Gbit/s? Jan 12 20:19:41 also, I was wondering, since there appears to be a default color scheme, if anyone's thought of making just that aspect of the UI changeable -- say, if the icons were SVG, having those parts that conformed to the scheme coded to a default color but referencing a user-selected color that could be set from an applet Jan 12 20:20:49 meaning in every icon's code, there would be an if statement referencing the same variable which represented the color scheme's default color Jan 12 20:20:52 nothingman: send this idea to mailing lists Jan 12 20:21:08 s/GBit/MBit Jan 12 20:21:20 Sencer, thank you Jan 12 20:21:40 not sure where I was at when choosing that letter :-P Jan 12 20:21:41 12:09 [freenode] -!- Private messages from unregistered users are currently blocked due to spam Jan 12 20:21:43 nothingman: I think qt 4.2 supports something like this Jan 12 20:21:44 problems, but you can always message a staffer. Please register! ( Jan 12 20:21:47 http://freenode.net/faq.shtml#privmsg ) Jan 12 20:21:50 that's a pain Jan 12 20:22:10 nothingman: so I guess mickey|bbl knows where to steal code from :) Jan 12 20:22:17 nnpiggy: that is the error Jan 12 20:23:35 How odd. I THOUGHT I was registered... I have a buddy pounce for nickserv which triggers every day... Jan 12 20:23:50 I'm not Jan 12 20:23:54 Oh! Jan 12 20:24:26 SVG is unlikely to hit cell phones Jan 12 20:24:31 at least anytime soon Jan 12 20:25:15 most tech is still being held back by battery tech Jan 12 20:26:03 most tech is currently being held back by the people that make it Jan 12 20:26:16 :D Jan 12 20:26:23 iawtc timtimred Jan 12 20:26:31 This version is backwards compatible with 1.x. The main enhancement is the introduction of Enhanced Data Rate (EDR) of 3.0 Mbps. Jan 12 20:26:36 don't attribute to malice what you can attribute to stupidity Jan 12 20:27:38 the new BT can do 3Mbps Jan 12 20:27:50 quants: and Neo has it Jan 12 20:28:07 EDR gives ~2.1Mbps real transfer Jan 12 20:28:36 yeah overhead Jan 12 20:28:42 I hope that I will be able to test it before fosdem or atleast on fosdem Jan 12 20:28:53 yep Jan 12 20:29:06 * koen suspects sean will bring some lunchboxes Jan 12 20:30:29 they should look at the modem for my w600i for the OM Jan 12 20:41:59 "While many outfits like to pretend that they emphasis user freedom, Jobs tells the Times categorically that he will define everything that is on the phone and not those pesky customers. He told users that Apple did not want the phone to be like a PC and that the last thing it wants is to have loaded software on the phone and find the phone does not work." Jan 12 20:42:37 I change my position Jan 12 20:45:39 sean going to be at fosdem? Jan 12 20:46:26 sean comes to fosdme, yes. Jan 12 20:47:35 So... no 3rd party on iphone, I was looking around and found this :) Jan 12 20:47:40 I'd never heard of it before :) Jan 12 20:48:00 shingoki: You're not the only one who found the Neo via iPhone hype. Jan 12 20:48:14 wow guys, maybe you were right? Jan 12 20:48:23 :) Jan 12 20:48:37 quants: Yes, we're right. The iPhone is the best thing that could happen to the Neo. Jan 12 20:48:49 I still hopw the lawyers don't try and kill it Jan 12 20:49:25 quants: You keep saying that but you have yet to explain how they could. Jan 12 20:49:30 I predict a bloody warfare over this market Jan 12 20:49:54 jjazz: just wait and see, maybe I'm wrong? Jan 12 20:50:51 quants: Well, you haven't given any reasons why you might be right. :P Jan 12 20:50:57 quants: So what you're saying is, you don't actually want to back up your comments but want to be seen to be being negative just in case. That's so totally not helpful. Jan 12 20:51:35 I have seen stuff done in court that would make your skin crawl Jan 12 20:51:59 I'm not really hot on the idea of inspiring anyone Jan 12 20:52:02 *shrug* So what? Should we all stop doing cool stuff because someone might get sued somewhere? Jan 12 20:52:30 no, I'm just voiceing the be prepared motto Jan 12 20:52:45 quants: You actually have a secret novel legal theory that could take down the Moko? Color me skeptical. Jan 12 20:53:09 not what I was saying at all Jan 12 20:53:12 It seems like you're just proposing everyone sit around worrying all day instead of doing anything. That's up to you, but maybe you have something more constructive to do than being "that guy" who wants to predict eventual failure for some reason or another. Jan 12 20:53:49 quants: What did you mean by not inspiriing people? I guess I misunderstood. Jan 12 20:53:49 Okay. How can we be prepared? What constructive action should FIC take? Jan 12 20:53:53 I'm not saying it will be a failure Jan 12 20:54:08 lawyers won't get involved, simply because openmoko is waay to small. Somthing like that would give it a lot of publicity and worsen the problem. Nobody that has a stake in the un-success of the openmoko would risk that. Jan 12 20:54:33 plus what patents is it violating Jan 12 20:54:47 any? Jan 12 20:54:51 timtimred: good question, I don't know Jan 12 20:54:53 dual stroke? Jan 12 20:55:09 *shrug* it probably does violate patents. most pieces of technology do. Jan 12 20:55:16 but let's stop this line of inqurey Jan 12 20:55:23 cjb sure just not iphone specific ones Jan 12 20:56:01 remember the whole market is not iPhone Jan 12 20:56:02 oh, indeed. the openmoko does nothing that hasn't been done in smartphones for a decade. the iPhone can't possibly have a relevant patent. Jan 12 20:56:28 * jjazz fails to see how the Neo's patent risk differs from any other phone's. Jan 12 20:56:38 totally. Jan 12 20:57:24 quants: Do you have any particular legal qualifications that give you insight in this area? You said you've seen things in court. Are you a lawyer? Jan 12 20:57:46 I'm not a lawyer Jan 12 20:57:56 Are you a frequent defendant? ;) Jan 12 20:58:09 I work lots of them though Jan 12 20:58:28 In the tech field? Jan 12 20:58:48 quants: be honest - do you work for SCO? Jan 12 20:58:49 ^^ Jan 12 20:59:19 d/detach Jan 12 20:59:19 lol, hell no Jan 12 20:59:21 exit Jan 12 20:59:30 wups Jan 12 21:01:28 I can't believe how offended people get when you intoroduce the slightest bit of reality to their fragile little world view. Jan 12 21:01:58 people this is a big thing happening Jan 12 21:02:33 most squabbles are about big things Jan 12 21:03:07 it might turn into big thing. Currently it is not. Jan 12 21:04:17 quants: I'm offended because all you're doing is providing stop-energy, which is categorically unhelpful for anything. All it does is make the people actually working on the project feel jaded by all the negativity. Jan 12 21:04:43 It is offensive for you to be pretending to be trying to help, when your input is actually a net loss. Jan 12 21:04:51 I seriously doubt that is the case Jan 12 21:05:01 You think you've said something useful, then? Jan 12 21:05:09 I can't see that the iphone has much except the multitouch Jan 12 21:05:25 quants: On a strategic level the necessary people are certainl aware of risks. There is just no point in constantly lamenting about it, when nothing of the sort is anywhere in sight Jan 12 21:05:28 and the "non-reprogrammable computer" thing was invented by babbage I think Jan 12 21:05:32 cjb: depends who's listening Jan 12 21:05:49 Apparently everyone but steve jobs thinks that allowing new programs to be loaded on a computing device was a step FORWARD Jan 12 21:05:55 quants: I'm not offended that you raise the idea of legal risk. I do think your vague fears are nonsense, though. Unless you can actually articulate what it is you are afraid of, it's just boogeyman nonsense. Jan 12 21:06:30 yeah lets stop talking about it Jan 12 21:06:47 remember that when jobs says 'patents', he doesn't necessarily mean patents in the usual sense of the word Jan 12 21:06:57 ?? Jan 12 21:06:59 a lot of apple patents are actually design patents Jan 12 21:07:02 yeah Jan 12 21:07:09 as in, they cover specific look / design Jan 12 21:07:11 good Jan 12 21:07:11 not functionality Jan 12 21:07:15 they should be more worried about people copying the look and feel Jan 12 21:07:22 since it has nothing novel really except the touch sensor Jan 12 21:07:24 e.g., some ipod patents are design patents. Jan 12 21:07:51 nobody has a patent on a touchscreen Jan 12 21:07:54 or on a cellular device Jan 12 21:08:04 when for sale? Jan 12 21:08:04 or on a, gasp, open source platform Jan 12 21:08:15 so, what patents are you worrying about? Jan 12 21:08:15 they might well have a patent on whatever specific technology detects multiple touches Jan 12 21:08:25 we are on january Jan 12 21:08:29 shingoki: no worry for us, the Neo technology doesn't do that Jan 12 21:08:41 WaREX: deployment has been pushed back by a month or two Jan 12 21:08:45 PirateHead: yup Jan 12 21:08:59 WaREX: initital deployment for "early release" candidites like developers in Feb, release to public some time after that Jan 12 21:09:08 Is there any graphics acceleration hardware, or just a plain framebuffer? Jan 12 21:09:36 shingoki: where are you going to fit an additional GPU in a mobile device? and who would use it? Jan 12 21:09:47 on the cpu genius Jan 12 21:09:53 PirateHead: often CPUs have acceleration. Jan 12 21:09:56 some SoC's have it Jan 12 21:09:56 yup Jan 12 21:10:02 like in the GP2X Jan 12 21:10:06 the current state is worthless Jan 12 21:10:11 some even have opengl ES Jan 12 21:10:11 totally useless Jan 12 21:10:11 thanks! Jan 12 21:10:12 but some day Jan 12 21:10:13 shingoki: I think the mobile-device market for whom gaming is a priority have already got a PSP or DS Jan 12 21:10:19 Opengl ES will rule hte fucking planet Jan 12 21:10:31 welcome, WaREX Jan 12 21:10:33 not necessarily just for gaming, I was just wondering Jan 12 21:10:41 PirateHead: graphics acceleration is useful for more than gaming. Jan 12 21:10:56 the hardest part of hacking linux onto mobile devices is getting decent display subsystems running Jan 12 21:11:01 cjb, et al: are you talking about a graphics card, or an integrated GPU in the processor? Jan 12 21:11:05 with opengl es you can just drop a completely accelerated X Jan 12 21:11:09 PirateHead: neither. Jan 12 21:11:25 PirateHead: i think the relevant interesting stuff coming down will be integrated GPU's on the processor Jan 12 21:11:25 I was just looking at iphone and working out what it had that openmoko didn't, and it's just wifi and presumably some kind of 3d acceleration Jan 12 21:11:26 then I have no clue what you're talking about, I'll just butt out :-) Jan 12 21:11:30 PirateHead: integrated accelerated features in the CPU Jan 12 21:11:38 on the minus size, a lower res screen and an idiot in charge Jan 12 21:11:45 within 14 months AMD & Nvidia should both have portable CPU's with opengl acceleration built in Jan 12 21:11:49 its going to KICK FUCKING ASS Jan 12 21:12:01 if you have completely unoptimised graphics, you can end up spending 100% CPU just moving bits around to redraw the screen. Jan 12 21:12:12 yup Jan 12 21:12:17 shingoki: The moko doesn't have accelerometers, does it? Jan 12 21:12:18 yuk Jan 12 21:12:21 and an accelerated UI can be very nice Jan 12 21:12:26 which makes everything slow and battery life worse. so it is common to have some form of optimisation, even if it's just, say, MMX. Jan 12 21:12:36 shingoki: Gonna put beryl on the Neo? Jan 12 21:12:46 bah, accelerometers. I guess it's a nice gimmick, would have been nice for games, but since there will be no non-apple games it doesn't matter Jan 12 21:13:04 yeah, accelerometers rock. Jan 12 21:13:14 jjazz, well I keep thinking that the nicest thing would be just a complete replacement for GTK, using acceleration to have a nice interface Jan 12 21:13:14 shingoki: I can't wait until we see the first pics of people who accidentally threw their iphone through their TV screen. Jan 12 21:13:17 hey maybe introversion could start doing games for it? Jan 12 21:13:18 the sweet thing about opengl is its massively paralleizable Jan 12 21:13:23 I hate to say it, but a nice interface like iphone :) Jan 12 21:13:24 which can actually save you huge amounts of power Jan 12 21:13:28 shingoki: India guys added accelerometer into Amida palmtop - some of their games use it Jan 12 21:13:45 running eight cores at 20 mhz can potentailly save a lot of powre over poor framebuffer tech Jan 12 21:14:09 shingoki: I'm a low tech guy when it comes to UI. My biggest regret about these small devices is that the CLI isn't as useful. Jan 12 21:14:13 What is accelerometer? Jan 12 21:14:17 I've never heard of it. Jan 12 21:14:23 PirateHead: detects motion Jan 12 21:14:30 and orientation. Jan 12 21:14:32 you just know Carmack is gonna try Jan 12 21:14:43 Oh, I see. I actually have heard of that. Jan 12 21:14:48 I thought you were talking about software. Jan 12 21:14:49 PirateHead: It's what lets the iphone tell which end is up and rotate the display accordingly. Jan 12 21:16:11 * prpplague wonders if apple has patented the use of accelerometer in handheld devices Jan 12 21:16:29 prpplague!! Jan 12 21:16:42 koen: hey hey Jan 12 21:16:45 you're all crazy. :) Jan 12 21:16:48 koen: whats cookin Jan 12 21:17:11 prpplague: not much Jan 12 21:17:16 prpplague: move completed? Jan 12 21:17:48 cjb: hehe, symbol(now motorola) holds the patent on initiating a barcode scan by pulling a gun like trigger, lots of crazy patents out there Jan 12 21:17:55 I'm happy to see people thinking about their actions, to me it says OM will be safe Jan 12 21:18:09 koen: close, i'm in the states getting things ready, wife and kids will be up next month Jan 12 21:18:22 prpplague: there's a difference between a patent and an enforceable patent. Jan 12 21:18:36 cjb: too true Jan 12 21:19:00 you have to be costing them money for it to be worth going after you Jan 12 21:19:04 cjb: agreed , but in alot of cases, its not about the enforcement, its about $$ to defend yourself Jan 12 21:19:08 the time to worry is if it is all a success Jan 12 21:19:18 then when you have a pile of money, you can lose it all :) Jan 12 21:24:25 hrw: can you send me the svg? I am not a dev, I have no cvs etc :) Jan 12 21:24:53 greentux: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/contrib Jan 12 21:25:15 what should be else on th eshirt? Jan 12 21:25:47 sorry, other channel... Jan 12 21:33:18 TimRiker: TIMMY! Jan 12 21:33:23 hrw|gone: later Jan 12 21:33:32 TimRiker: how goes it? Jan 12 21:45:50 Hey; for what providers will openmoko phones be available? Jan 12 21:46:07 all providers you can get a sim from Jan 12 21:46:56 verzion uses an ESN number for activation... Does that mean Verizon Wireless won't be supported? Jan 12 21:47:46 Does the Neo1973 have a camera? Jan 12 21:48:17 no Jan 12 21:48:36 sounds good Jan 12 21:48:44 lukaswayne9: verizon isn't GSM Jan 12 21:49:03 lukaswayne9: In America, Verizon is CDMA only. The Neo's radio doesn't do CDMA. Jan 12 21:49:12 lukas: I don't think Verizon uses GSM... afaik from a quick google is uses EV-DO Jan 12 21:49:20 bummer Jan 12 21:49:25 my contract ends soon though Jan 12 21:49:31 lukaswayne9: In America, GSM means Cingular and T-Mobile Jan 12 21:49:43 i'll check rates for them Jan 12 21:50:10 lukaswayne9: Generally speaking, T-Mobile is held in higher esteem than Cingular, but individual experiences vary greatly. Jan 12 21:50:34 cingular gets poor service in my area Jan 12 21:50:56 lukaswayne9: Yes, lots of people complain about that. BTW, Cingular is about to disappear. It's going to be called AT&T in a few months. Jan 12 21:51:13 honestly? man Jan 12 21:51:18 * Melkman feels lucky with 5 GSM providers to choose from :-) Jan 12 21:51:33 t-mobile rates beat cingular rates anyway Jan 12 21:51:40 lukaswayne9: AT&T owned most of Cingular. They bought Bell South, which owned the rest, so now AT&T owns Cingular 100%. Jan 12 21:51:57 Is it triband or quad band? works in europe? Jan 12 21:52:12 quad band and will work in Europe Jan 12 21:52:22 cool Jan 12 21:52:28 and GPRS presumably? Jan 12 21:52:46 it's just a shame it doesn't have wifi Jan 12 21:52:46 prpplague: hanging man... :) my smartphone hardware project may well kick into gear soon. Jan 12 21:53:14 shingoki: wifi would use so much power running of phone battery, in an external thing perhaps Jan 12 21:53:23 shingoki: I agree, but the battery life would make the wifi worthless anyway. Jan 12 21:53:24 shingoki: 3g would be more useful in a phone probably Jan 12 21:53:45 TimRiker: oh? what project is that? Jan 12 21:53:49 It's a shame batery technology is so primitive. Jan 12 21:53:55 TimRiker: i've been out of the loop lately Jan 12 21:54:21 3g would be good if the phone companies sorted out Jan 12 21:54:34 but I think wifi would be useful, just for 2 minute checks of email near hotspots Jan 12 21:54:41 Seem to have sorted 3g out quite nicely now Jan 12 21:54:42 anyway, cool stuff :) cya Jan 12 21:55:09 company planning to build a smartphone. quad band gsm/gprs/edge, vga display, bluetooth, wifi, gps, sd slot, usb host and client, keyboard, etc. Jan 12 21:55:23 TimRiker: What company? Jan 12 21:55:27 linux based. of course. :) Jan 12 21:55:29 Hmm, I might end up sticking with verizon. I can't beat $20 with unlimited txt , unlimitted verizon, and free nights/weekends with 500 minutes.. i'm on a family plan Jan 12 21:55:32 TimRiker: cool deal, what cpu? Jan 12 21:55:40 jjazz: company is called PSNet Inc. Jan 12 21:55:43 * benJIman doesn't even have a mobile phone at the moment Jan 12 21:55:59 prpplague: yet to be determined for certian, but most likely an omap. Jan 12 21:56:13 TimRiker: ahh Jan 12 21:56:21 So I suppose buying a £180 openmoko might be a bit extravagent as I have no use-case for a phone Jan 12 21:56:27 TimRiker: I hope omap2 or omap3 Jan 12 21:56:41 omap2 is the most likely at this point. Jan 12 21:56:43 although omap1 is getting pretty cheap Jan 12 21:56:58 want usb 2.0 for both host and client. Jan 12 21:57:03 TimRiker: yeah, arm11 eliminates a lot of the usual headaches Jan 12 21:57:14 TimRiker: gonna use the DSP for optimized a/v as well as the radio? Jan 12 21:57:38 TimRiker: omap with or without iva? Jan 12 21:57:39 that's the plan, yes. Jan 12 21:58:00 TimRiker: Geez, those specs are ambitious Jan 12 21:58:01 iva? wow. and acronym I don't know. :) Jan 12 21:58:19 jjazz: read "that will be a big phone" and yes, they are. Jan 12 21:58:31 TimRiker: And spendy? Jan 12 21:58:32 TimRiker: iva is the mpeg 'asic'type thingy Jan 12 21:58:42 TimRiker, put all into battery life and powermanagment .. thats the door opener in my eyes these days Jan 12 21:59:00 retail (like that happens) would be like $700 usd Jan 12 21:59:00 rob_w: I agree Jan 12 21:59:20 TimRiker: yea geting a usb2.0 host/client is an issue with alot of SoC's at the momment Jan 12 21:59:47 rob_w: yes. planning to use all the power management goo we can get running. clock and power adjustments, etc. Jan 12 21:59:47 TimRiker: what do you intend to do for celluar connectivity? Jan 12 21:59:47 TimRiker: No keyboard? ;) Jan 12 22:00:03 jjazz: yes, slide out keyboard. Jan 12 22:00:17 jjazz: though bluetooth keyboards will also work. Jan 12 22:00:32 prpplague: since there's 'usb 2' and usb 2 Jan 12 22:00:46 myren: gsm/gprs/edge quad band. hoping for 3g too, but that's up in the air at the moment. Jan 12 22:00:51 TimRiker: Hell, if you can actually build that, keep it open and free and get it through cell provider sales channels, I'll take a dozen. Jan 12 22:01:03 jjazz: that's the hope. :) Jan 12 22:01:15 TimRiker: It's a tough road, but I wish you luck. Jan 12 22:01:18 TimRiker: are there off the shelf silicon solutions available for that kind of stuff? Jan 12 22:01:37 it _will_ include a cd with full gpl/lgpl/bsd/etc sources right in the box. Jan 12 22:01:54 tuxscreen++++ ? Jan 12 22:01:58 myren: not quite. that's why some of that is up in the air. Jan 12 22:02:08 i would even attach a buffer battery to run the device 2 minutes for exchanging the main battery Jan 12 22:02:10 koen: heh. don't wait for the $99 discount though. :) Jan 12 22:02:26 rob_w: super cap in there for that. Jan 12 22:02:48 right .. those should do it these days for some time Jan 12 22:02:52 TimRiker: That's a big cap Jan 12 22:02:53 TimRiker: it's good to know it's moving forwards Jan 12 22:03:24 opening the battery will auto-suspend everything so that the cap should be able to keep things alive till the re-plug. Jan 12 22:03:31 TimRiker, what is the target market time ? Jan 12 22:03:32 means that the phone will hang up though. Jan 12 22:03:43 rob_w: end of this year. Jan 12 22:03:49 What company is this? Jan 12 22:03:49 well one cant have everything Jan 12 22:03:58 If it ends up as big as the n800 it's pointless. Jan 12 22:04:10 There are smaller laptops Jan 12 22:04:10 benJIman: effectively a startup. PSNet is the name. Jan 12 22:04:13 so sad there's no phone on the n800 Jan 12 22:04:19 benJIman: With all that HW and ports, the thing won't be pocket-sized. Jan 12 22:04:24 n800 != phone imho Jan 12 22:04:31 benJIman: smaller than the n800 Jan 12 22:04:44 jjazz: if it's too big to fit in a pocket I think it's missed market Jan 12 22:04:51 TimRiker: outsourcing the hardware ergonomics? Jan 12 22:04:54 but it may be that heavy with the large battery. Jan 12 22:04:54 if you have to carry a bag you could just take a smal laptop Jan 12 22:04:59 hi TimRiker Jan 12 22:05:07 Stephmw: yes. in the middle of those talks now. Jan 12 22:05:13 TimRiker: Thinking about OpenMoko on the phone? :) Jan 12 22:05:40 TimRiker: going for TS-only, or something sensible with numpad, dpad and softkeys? Jan 12 22:05:48 TimRiker: What's your position with PSNet? Jan 12 22:05:52 stefan_schmidt: yes. don't worry folks here and in openezx etc will be the first ones able to get prototypes. Jan 12 22:06:12 TimRiker: heh, sounds great Jan 12 22:06:39 * stefan_schmidt is somewhat tired after his 9 hours hacking session on openezx today. Jan 12 22:06:59 stefan_schmidt: tired, but satisfied? Jan 12 22:07:02 iphone has the size compromise right imo Jan 12 22:07:03 Stephmw: not ready to show the plans yet, but the hope is to have a small dial pad as well as a pull out keyboard. I am a bit over the top in requirements there though, the keyboard has to be sturdy or we won't do it. Jan 12 22:07:14 much smaller and you can't browse web on the display, any bigger and it won't fit in pocket Jan 12 22:07:43 TimRiker: that's fine :) details aren't needed yet :) Jan 12 22:07:46 benJIman: nod. it'll be smaller than the n800 but larger than most phones. vga display. Jan 12 22:08:10 we need to get a pda web proxy service where all pics or stupid frames get out of the way or such Jan 12 22:08:22 koen: Yes, AP/BP still not done, but nice progress anyway. In short: mux_cli port to x86, fixed two or three bugs in mux_cli Jan 12 22:08:26 rob_w: there's already such a thing from Opera Jan 12 22:08:34 stefan_schmidt: sweet Jan 12 22:08:36 rob_w: and Opera Mini does a splendid job with it too Jan 12 22:08:41 rob_w: 'lynx' ;) Jan 12 22:08:50 rob_w: agreed. lots of backend services are needed. imap/calendaring/web proxy/etc. Jan 12 22:08:50 koen, yeey Jan 12 22:09:03 TimRiker: not sure an integrated keyboard is necessary if interface is designed well Jan 12 22:09:14 benJIman: A keyboar is always needed if the device is going to be an email client Jan 12 22:09:25 koen: I'll write a mail this night or tomorrow. It's a question how much time I have before fall asleep. Jan 12 22:09:25 (or, in my case, an ssh client) Jan 12 22:09:32 benJIman: agreed. with the bluetooth keyboard option available as well even more so. Jan 12 22:09:33 Heh, for running IRC on a phone a keyboard is a definite advantage Jan 12 22:09:41 if ya need a keyboard, get a BT one Jan 12 22:09:42 jjazz: touch screen can be keyboard though Jan 12 22:09:50 Melkman: agreed - at a minimum, the P910 keyboard was usable Jan 12 22:10:06 benJIman: Yes, but speed suffers greatly on touch screens. Jan 12 22:10:14 * mjr is seriously considering a BT keyboard - it's great to have that option now ;) Jan 12 22:10:18 TimRiker: yeah, ideal would be something like iphone design of one big screen, with a dock with bigger battery and keyboard or something Jan 12 22:10:23 benJIman: BT keyboard might suffice, though. Jan 12 22:10:28 like the ibm x-series laptops dock for extra stuff Jan 12 22:10:33 would also work as a remote control for the home computer, also a media player... Jan 12 22:10:34 mjr: problem with BT keyboards is that you can't use them without a stable surface Jan 12 22:10:37 benJIman: /me nods and smiles. Jan 12 22:10:44 jjazz: speed suffers on anything that small Jan 12 22:11:08 mjr: ir transmitter is still an open question. Jan 12 22:11:09 TimRiker: UI design also getting done by non-devs? ;) Jan 12 22:11:12 though the zaurus thumb keyboard I can get pretty decent speeds on Jan 12 22:11:13 TimRiker: Make a slide-out keyboard that's easy to use with emacs, and you will be king of the geeks. Jan 12 22:11:19 benJIman: True enough. Jan 12 22:11:24 i my zaurus Jan 12 22:11:35 Stephmw: developers arn't necessarily bad UI designers Jan 12 22:11:35 Stephmw: not so far. need more people there. :( Jan 12 22:11:37 if it just had a cellphone built in, it would be perfect ;) Jan 12 22:11:40 TimRiker, I meant the BT keyboard ;) Jan 12 22:11:55 Stephmw: it's just that developer doesn't imply good UI designers, but there are plenty of people good at both Jan 12 22:11:57 jjazz: no emacs. just busybox vi. :) Jan 12 22:12:08 also lots of people who are good at one but not the other Jan 12 22:12:15 people need to start to think differently about these devices Jan 12 22:12:23 benJIman: no, but typically, average designers are a hell of a lot better at UI design (and interaction) than developers :) Jan 12 22:12:34 irc, keyboards, remotes? Jan 12 22:12:37 quants: isn't that "think different" ? :) Jan 12 22:12:42 benJIman: I've worked on a number of such projects with designers Jan 12 22:13:04 The set of developers and the Set of designers intersect Jan 12 22:13:12 benJIman: you may see some descendants of my proofs of concepts on Orange handsets in a few years Jan 12 22:13:34 I like the gps, with a good netlink you could use gpsd to let select people find you Jan 12 22:13:46 I havn't seen a PDA or a phone in the 4 years or so since I got my zaurus that actually looks like an improvement. Jan 12 22:13:47 well, I got deeper into this than I meant to. prpplague is not even on anymore. :) Jan 12 22:13:51 haha Jan 12 22:14:07 openmoko and iphone are first things looking innovative Jan 12 22:14:14 benJIman: in the end, UI design is about consistency (no matter how ugly) Jan 12 22:14:14 btw, can bt keyboards generally be paired to more than one computer, such that it wouldn't be cumbersome to swap if you're typing to the phone or the workstation? Jan 12 22:14:16 indeed Jan 12 22:14:28 benJIman: Nokia S40 handsets for instance are very consistent Jan 12 22:14:38 benJIman: even if the UI is really limited Jan 12 22:14:40 * koen hugs his nokia 6210 Jan 12 22:14:53 Stephmw: yes indeed, especially compared to motorola madness Jan 12 22:15:09 motorola UI actuallly changes the positions of the cancel and ok buttons arround as you're navigating Jan 12 22:15:20 The sort of crazy thing GNOME UI designers do Jan 12 22:15:22 if a country doesnt support 2.5G edge, will the neo just run at 2g gprs ? Jan 12 22:15:24 I'll likely get some design concepts up on the web someplace where I can point you folks to and get comments. :) Jan 12 22:15:48 Psi, the Neo does not actually support edge, but plain gprs Jan 12 22:16:02 Psi: so that's a yes. :) Jan 12 22:16:12 Psi: I don't think neo supports edge, unfortunately not 3g either Jan 12 22:16:12 ah, i must have misread something someone someone on here Jan 12 22:16:17 yeah Jan 12 22:16:30 does anyone know if 3G is planed for the next model neo? Jan 12 22:16:33 TimRiker: I'll be happy to corner my designer buddies when you do Jan 12 22:16:39 Are there actually any edge networks outside the US? Jan 12 22:16:50 Stephmw: sweet. I'll hold you to that. :) Jan 12 22:16:56 not here (nz) just 2G and 3G Jan 12 22:17:00 I'm not sure, but I think there _may_ be edge around here... Jan 12 22:17:14 benji: Telfort runs EDGE in the Netherlands Jan 12 22:17:34 about to be dismantled this year though Jan 12 22:17:36 koen: yegads man. that thing should be buried Jan 12 22:17:46 yes, apparently there is edge service here in Finland Jan 12 22:17:51 ah well, I'll live with gprs Jan 12 22:18:15 Hey, maybe you people can help me with this: a young lady told me she wants a cool, exotic cell that nobody else has but everybody will be jealous of. And she wants it in sparkly pink. It's ok if she has to go to Asia to get it. What phone should she get? Jan 12 22:18:29 mjr: I'm sure you'll find every type of cellular network around Oulu Jan 12 22:18:36 hehe Jan 12 22:19:00 mjr: and probably around Tampere Jan 12 22:19:10 (sp) Jan 12 22:19:22 Tampere is correct :] Jan 12 22:20:01 having it in sparkly pink will instantly make half the population not jealous of it at all Jan 12 22:20:17 Psi: The population she's concerned with will love it. Jan 12 22:20:22 hehe Jan 12 22:20:31 Psi: She's a party girl. Jan 12 22:20:51 go to your neighborhood phone center, pick up a phone. take it to a auto paint shop. have it painted sparkly pink. Jan 12 22:21:00 ^^ Jan 12 22:21:10 heh Jan 12 22:21:15 yeah, autopaint will make it look great Jan 12 22:21:27 TimRiker: the phone itself has to be exotic. She doesn't need exotic features, but a small touchscreen phone from Malaysia or something is what she wants. Jan 12 22:21:46 you just missed CES. there were lots there. Jan 12 22:21:50 TimRiker: She's looking for great display, decent camera and decent UI. And sparkels. Jan 12 22:21:58 TimRiker: I'm not a journalist. Jan 12 22:22:01 mjr: your name looked familiar... but then I remembered that to me a lot of finish names probably will do :) Jan 12 22:22:04 there was one phone that was just a touchscreen. very sleek looking. not pink though. Jan 12 22:22:11 TimRiker: What's it called? Jan 12 22:22:17 * TimRiker googles. Jan 12 22:22:18 *Finnish Jan 12 22:22:51 If she's nice to me, maybe I'll paint it for her. Jan 12 22:22:55 The iphone is quite similar to a padd Jan 12 22:22:56 how about http://www.gizmodiva.com/mobile_phones/lenovo_i807_pink_phone.php Jan 12 22:23:29 Psi: Now *that* is what she's looking for. Jan 12 22:23:48 TimRiker: I'd love to recreate some of what SavaJe did on these open platform phones Jan 12 22:23:53 Psi: Thanks! Jan 12 22:23:58 np Jan 12 22:24:07 TimRiker: although it will have to be J2SE, I'm not allowed to do J2ME Jan 12 22:24:29 howdy Jan 12 22:26:14 Stephmw: not allowed? Jan 12 22:26:27 Psi: Now, how the hell does she buy one? Jan 12 22:26:41 no idea, i just googled pink touchscreen phone Jan 12 22:26:52 TimRiker: I work on a closed-source J2ME implementation... it'd be a bit of a conflict ;-) Jan 12 22:27:02 I bet there will be more than 5 open/nearly open linux phones end of year... Jan 12 22:27:14 Fair enough. Jan 12 22:27:59 * koen hopes we can get agpsd openened as well Jan 12 22:28:36 is that the gps driver? Jan 12 22:28:45 yes Jan 12 22:29:07 um, cellular modems == hard as fuck to do Jan 12 22:30:20 * Stephmw whispers Jan 12 22:30:23 koen: that is a matter of time... same problem like the 3945 daemon on linux ( although bsd an free version has) Jan 12 22:30:39 sun gpl'd a java jvm called phoneme Jan 12 22:31:24 quants: yes, it's the J2ME core sources for CDC and CLDC Jan 12 22:31:44 quants: including the KVMProxy and some basic tests Jan 12 22:31:51 quants: the GNU Classpath guys are looking at it Jan 12 22:32:07 wonderful Jan 12 22:32:28 I can't find a link to the slim touchscreen phone I saw. Jan 12 22:32:48 Stephmw: ah. ic. Jan 12 22:32:51 it's nice to see all the pieces come together Jan 12 22:33:12 TimRiker: That's ok. I'll keep watching. Jan 12 22:34:20 TimRiker: so, while I can't chat about detailed stuff, if there's ever any questions about the.. hmmm... ecosystem, feel free to ask Jan 12 22:38:59 heh Jan 12 22:39:27 I can't find the no-button phone. it was kinda like the nokia 7380 Jan 12 22:39:55 I think I know the monstrosity you're talking about Jan 12 22:40:03 can't remember its name either Jan 12 22:40:04 It's out there. Maybe I'll just tell her to get a Neo. Jan 12 22:40:26 will it be available in pink ?!? Jan 12 22:40:33 jjazz: Xun Chi 138? it's small... Jan 12 22:40:49 Melkman: If she's got an airbrush and some masking tape. Jan 12 22:41:13 http://www.nokiausa.com/phones/7380 Jan 12 22:41:29 Sencer: Heh. That's like Zoolander small Jan 12 22:41:29 TimRiker: we called that one the lipstick phone Jan 12 22:41:33 but the one I saw at CES was black, with a larger display. Jan 12 22:42:30 Stephmw: Nokia made a lipstick phone a couple years ago. It had a partially leather casing and dialed via a scroll wheel Jan 12 22:42:36 TimRiker: thanks for bzz :) Jan 12 22:44:05 :) Jan 12 23:20:40 suppose the neo is released until fosdem (which sure hope it will be), can we get discount if we buy a numerb of them there? Jan 12 23:22:53 * xkr47 wonders how much the shipping will cost to finland Jan 12 23:23:48 mhh next or 2nd next day round the world is expensive Jan 12 23:24:03 xkr47: depends where from, do we know? Jan 12 23:24:08 then again, a cellphone could be put in a relaly tiny box Jan 12 23:24:13 taiwan Jan 12 23:24:13 I don't :) Jan 12 23:24:15 * mjr doesn't even have time to wonder how much the shipping costs to Finland, just that when when when :] Jan 12 23:24:15 possibly china Jan 12 23:24:31 mjf :) Jan 12 23:24:33 bloody keyboard Jan 12 23:24:33 mjr :) Jan 12 23:24:39 if you happen to live in Helsinki, maybe we can group order to cut postage tho Jan 12 23:24:48 mjr: it'd almost be easier to somehow bundle a trip to FOSDEM if the Neo happens to be out by then :) Jan 12 23:24:49 maybe the battery is low or something Jan 12 23:24:57 Stephmw: exactly Jan 12 23:24:59 hyvä idea! Jan 12 23:25:17 joo laitetaan silleen Jan 12 23:26:21 * mjr thinks it likely that he can get some other people to order at the same time too... Jan 12 23:27:00 so when is openmoko.com going to be updated with new developments in the openmoko world? Jan 12 23:28:11 that's gotta be wrong Jan 12 23:28:32 80 EUR for flight to brussels during fosdem Jan 12 23:29:15 buz: 50EUR from germany. Jan 12 23:29:21 mhh Jan 12 23:29:24 this is switzerland Jan 12 23:29:34 i would expect it to cost 200E from zurich Jan 12 23:29:42 (80E with BA thru Heathrow) Jan 12 23:29:42 * stefan_schmidt still searches for a very cheap hostel. :( Jan 12 23:29:43 buz: the finns will have the brunt of it for europeans Jan 12 23:30:03 is fosdem worth it? Jan 12 23:30:06 buz: wtf? you'd bounce via the uk to belgium...? Jan 12 23:30:15 is there a conference coming up? Jan 12 23:30:19 for 100E less? i might Jan 12 23:30:29 z3cka: FOSDEM in brussels Jan 12 23:30:34 Swiss wants nearly 180E Jan 12 23:31:01 or i might convince BA to give me 2 days in london... Jan 12 23:31:01 buz: it's really only worth it if: a) you're going to meet people specifically, and b) you view it as a donation to FOSS ;) Jan 12 23:31:13 buz: when? Jan 12 23:31:15 buz: Good question. Will be my first time there. But there are many oe people I like to meet. Also Sean will be there. (And perhaps I have to give a talk myself) Jan 12 23:31:19 mhh know a few guys from belgium Jan 12 23:31:25 which i have never met Jan 12 23:31:32 z3cka: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/ Jan 12 23:31:41 buz: thank you Jan 12 23:31:43 24th and 25th February Jan 12 23:31:57 thank for what? Jan 12 23:32:05 apparently fosdem is just after Sean leaves Finland :] Jan 12 23:32:06 you're getting my thanks :) Jan 12 23:32:08 maybe there Jan 12 23:32:20 mjr: interesting coincidence :) Jan 12 23:32:21 meeting people and listen andrew morton is the most interesting stuff. Jan 12 23:32:26 buz: oops i mean thanks Stephmw Jan 12 23:32:32 z3cka: no worries Jan 12 23:33:03 buz: I'll be going mostly for the Java stuff Jan 12 23:33:10 buz: but will pop into various other bits Jan 12 23:33:54 i have worked for a guy in brussels in fall Jan 12 23:34:08 (without ever meeting him, might catch up ;) Jan 12 23:34:24 besides it's 3 days after my last exam this winter Jan 12 23:34:30 3 days should be enough to get sober Jan 12 23:36:57 http://www.fosdem.org/2007/ = drupal site... nice Jan 12 23:37:51 it'd be hillarious if they made it pretend to have .aspx extensions :) Jan 12 23:39:00 It's possible to do asp.net with only foss Jan 12 23:39:09 with mono + mod_mono + apache Jan 12 23:39:11 well i know a guy who made a site for a gates foundation project on linux and ezpublish Jan 12 23:42:02 stefan_schmidt: define affordable for hotels Jan 12 23:42:09 i see some that are 40E Jan 12 23:42:33 (until you try to book at that price, obviously) Jan 12 23:43:01 buz: I just found the youth hostels. Around 20 EUR. I'm a student. Jan 12 23:43:43 url? Jan 12 23:43:46 buz: Youth hostel, even with 8 person room is fine. Looks like I should get something around this price if I book the next week. Jan 12 23:44:01 stefan_schmidt: CHAB only has an age limit iirc, don't think they care if you're a student Jan 12 23:44:10 buz: http://www.sleepwell.be/ Jan 12 23:44:22 Stephmw: CHAB? never heard Jan 12 23:44:57 buz: You can even use http://www.hihostels.com/ Jan 12 23:45:08 hmmm, maybe they don't do it for fosdem anymore.. /me checks Jan 12 23:45:25 stefan_schmidt: http://www.fosdem.org/2007/practical/accomodation Jan 12 23:45:44 sleepwell doesnt care for age Jan 12 23:46:00 if you're over 35 you should book private room they say Jan 12 23:46:37 same age limit at CHAB, except you can't book private ;) so no booking Jan 12 23:47:01 I've stayed at Novotel before as well Jan 12 23:47:05 expensive. Jan 12 23:47:06 * stefan_schmidt takes a look Jan 12 23:47:34 mickey|bbl, regarding ironing out the gtk performance problems.. are you posting the updates upstream or are they kindof moko-specific ? Jan 12 23:48:46 OK, I should talk about this with my friends and book next week. Jan 12 23:49:11 after seeing prices in hongkong a few years back i'm not easily scared anymore Jan 12 23:49:59 BTW, the GNU Classpath guys have a list of people who say they'll attend on their wiki - perhaps something similar for these channels? Jan 12 23:50:28 xkr47: doing some performance measurements for gtk and framebuffers speeds Jan 12 23:50:33 if we /had/ a wiki Jan 12 23:50:46 Stephmw: like http://www.openembedded.org/fosdem2007 ? Jan 12 23:50:56 koen: any would do ;-) Jan 12 23:52:49 * Stephmw waves Jan 12 23:52:51 g'night Jan 12 23:52:58 good night Stephmw Jan 13 01:03:33 is there any risks with the neo if the sales are not whats expected? Jan 13 01:50:59 * ymo000 #solaris **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 13 02:59:57 2007