**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jan 14 02:59:58 2007 Jan 14 03:00:55 it'll do video somewhat but i think the hw will be a bit slow for 24/30fps Jan 14 03:01:12 the arm has no SIMD and there's little/no 2d accel Jan 14 03:02:16 damn Jan 14 03:02:28 i wanted to be able to watch divx tv eps on it :) Jan 14 03:06:38 wonder if the cpu will handle being overclocked a little :P Jan 14 03:10:53 ok The Venice project people where wondering Jan 14 03:12:09 * Psi looksup what that is Jan 14 03:13:11 http://www.theveniceproject.com/blog/ Jan 14 03:14:23 and this phone has so much promise with bluetooth Jan 14 03:14:32 yeah Jan 14 03:14:46 well looks like they willl have to wait but thats ok Jan 14 03:15:35 they want to dominate the living room first Jan 14 03:15:46 then mobile devices Jan 14 03:16:21 by then the second or third version might be out Jan 14 03:16:54 Well Venice is still in closed beta so no rush for them Jan 14 03:19:16 I notice Mark Pesce posted on the mailing list Jan 14 03:20:49 http://relationalspace.org/ Jan 14 03:24:14 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mark_Pesce Jan 14 06:36:29 heh, iPhone about US$2000 for the first year http://www.consumerist.com/consumer/iphone/iphones-true-cost-1936-228611.php Jan 14 06:44:48 yow Jan 14 06:45:36 but are all those plans needed? like the $40/mo ($480/year) MEdia thingummy? Jan 14 06:52:56 dunno Jan 14 06:53:01 they didn't list net bandwidth Jan 14 06:53:07 unless media net and gprs is the same thing Jan 14 07:01:32 i think so Jan 14 07:02:13 i didn't realize cingular was so expensive for unlimited n+l Jan 14 07:02:25 n+l? Jan 14 07:02:46 nights and weekends - oops, tired Jan 14 07:02:52 should've been n+w Jan 14 07:30:36 morning Jan 14 11:21:09 anybody knows what hardware upgrades are planned for the second version ? Jan 14 11:21:26 Samsung s3c2460 perhaps ?-) Jan 14 11:23:10 lol @ image behind MacNorth's url :D Jan 14 11:48:05 s3c2410 vs s3c2460: http://www.gp32x.com/board/lofiversion/index.php/t32544.html Jan 14 11:50:20 xkr47: or pxa320 or imx31 or LPC or ... or ... Jan 14 11:50:51 thx :) Jan 14 11:53:26 imx31 Jan 14 11:53:29 a vfp in v2 would be neat Jan 14 11:53:44 the 2460 is kinda wasted without good cam Jan 14 11:53:59 or some form of graphic accell so we can have fancy stuff like googlemaps Jan 14 11:54:22 buz, is "imx31" more or less a fact or something you would like ? Jan 14 11:54:30 something i would like Jan 14 11:54:39 :) Jan 14 11:54:40 or an omap Jan 14 11:54:41 that would be the killer chip ;) Jan 14 11:54:52 does anyone besides nokia even get omap? Jan 14 11:54:56 my friend just ordered a n800, which has no gsm but has omap Jan 14 11:55:07 yeah if the n800 had gsm i would get it Jan 14 11:55:09 so I guess we can then compare the features and speeds Jan 14 11:55:17 the n800 is too big for a phone Jan 14 11:55:22 well yes Jan 14 11:55:26 mm Jan 14 11:55:37 i'd probably have a 20? phone for pure phone use Jan 14 11:55:44 well I don't need a camera, I intened hooking up my regular digital camera through usb instead Jan 14 11:55:45 and keep the n800 at hand when at uni etc Jan 14 11:55:59 i dont care to lug around a cam Jan 14 11:56:36 buz, should have a "phone" unit that you can shove in your backpack and then a n800 that communicates through bt :) Jan 14 11:56:56 thats stupid Jan 14 11:56:57 or well maybe that's what you meant Jan 14 11:57:02 ok Jan 14 11:57:04 it's not like i need GPRS ;) Jan 14 11:57:11 ;) Jan 14 11:57:14 the phone is for calling, when i DONT have a backpack to put the n800 Jan 14 11:57:33 sip <-> normal roaming would be nice Jan 14 11:57:41 buz: is the n800 as big as it looks? Jan 14 11:57:47 it looks bigger than some laptops Jan 14 11:57:49 i think so Jan 14 11:57:53 lol Jan 14 11:57:58 the screen itself would be ok Jan 14 11:58:06 but the stuff around it is just stupid Jan 14 11:58:15 (somewhat similar to neo design, actually) Jan 14 11:58:25 I have a 12" laptop, anything that intends to be smaller has to fit in a pocket Jan 14 11:58:36 Tv: I agree, even the neo looks slightly biggish Jan 14 11:58:39 tv :) Jan 14 11:59:00 am i transmitting Jan 14 11:59:06 well I have a 12" laptop that's bust for the third time.. :) Jan 14 11:59:16 gambler, no you're transceiving Jan 14 11:59:22 well the neo fits a pocket Jan 14 11:59:32 good enough Jan 14 11:59:33 but considering how small the screen is compared to the overall case Jan 14 11:59:48 i mean up the screen keep the case ;) Jan 14 12:00:02 buz: it's still pretty big for pocket, it's bigger than the zaurus I think, which only just fits in my pocket Jan 14 12:00:22 how sturdy is the openmoko Jan 14 12:00:27 will it break if you drop it from 1m ? Jan 14 12:00:35 Try it and see :p Jan 14 12:00:39 :D Jan 14 12:00:47 zaurus can survive drop from 1m, I've done it several times Jan 14 12:01:02 It even survived drop from 1m traveling at 20m off bike Jan 14 12:01:21 *20mph Jan 14 12:01:22 is there btw a ovalish hole in the other end of the openmoko or is it just for looks ? Jan 14 12:01:37 old nokias could survive a running throw into asphalt, spreading the parts in a ditch filled with snow Jan 14 12:02:06 xkr47: looks like a place to attach a lanyard or some such Jan 14 12:02:10 tbh a lot is down to chance Jan 14 12:02:20 benJIman, that equals dropping it from 2.4 metres Jan 14 12:02:23 if you regularly drop anything 1m it will probably break before long Jan 14 12:02:38 Tv, :) Jan 14 12:02:45 Tv, yeah I thought that might be the case Jan 14 12:02:52 and what cpu would neo include? Jan 14 12:03:15 thresh_, the first version due in feb ? Samsung s3c2410 Jan 14 12:03:31 eh, no 3d porn then Jan 14 12:03:53 you can always make panting calls Jan 14 12:04:09 size comparison: http://www.flickr.com/photos/86669029@N00/356833001/ Jan 14 12:04:10 i'll never get why people want mobile porn Jan 14 12:04:31 buz: dunno. but the company i work in has main profit for selling mobile pron. Jan 14 12:04:43 people are stupid Jan 14 12:05:24 is the 770 sizewise like n800 ? Jan 14 12:05:34 it is Jan 14 12:05:38 give or take a cm Jan 14 12:05:58 770 seems smaller Jan 14 12:06:34 thresh_: you could probably do some 3d stuff with it Jan 14 12:08:14 Are the lists broken? no messages for a while Jan 14 12:45:27 Anyone know if there's any way to develop OpenMoko apps on a regular Linux (Ubuntu) box and how I would go about doing it? Can't wait to preorder the Neo1973 and dump my Treo 600. Jan 14 12:46:51 rboehme: Read about openembedded.org usage. It the build system they will use. Jan 14 12:47:08 openmoko uses gtk, so for the first step you can develop it like any gtk+ application on your workstation Jan 14 12:47:25 and as stefan_schmidt you can use OE to compile and package it for the neo Jan 14 12:47:36 stefan_schmidt: guten morgen Jan 14 12:47:40 just make sure you can actually use it on vga screen Jan 14 12:47:45 koen: guten morgen :) Jan 14 12:47:47 OE? Jan 14 12:47:56 rboehme: openembedded Jan 14 12:48:00 buz: a 300dpi screen even Jan 14 12:48:17 buz: which equates to a 320x240 screen on your workstation :) Jan 14 12:48:25 * stefan_schmidt goes to a family party now. cu later. Jan 14 12:48:56 stefan_schmidt: enjoy Jan 14 12:48:58 I'll look openembedded up. guten morgen, stefan and koen. Jan 14 12:51:36 I gather OpenMoko, being based on Linux, will actually be multithreaded (thinking of Palm, which patently isn't, from what I know). Jan 14 12:53:02 it is Jan 14 12:54:33 cool. Any word on when preorders might open, and when in Feb I can get one? My Treo is slowly dying, and I'm going to have to pick up a free phone from T-Mobile until then. Jan 14 12:55:09 Also, I gather being GSM/GPRS, that T-Mobile should have no problems with it (crossees fingers). Jan 14 12:57:09 rboehme: why should there be problems? Jan 14 12:57:28 rboehme: th eopenmoko used a gsm-modul, certified all over th eworld Jan 14 12:59:35 greentux: I don't know anything about phone's internals. I just know that my carrier uses GSM; I thought that there might have been something strange in the way things work such that carriers could block unsupported devices. Jan 14 13:00:02 I'm learning, but for the moment I don't know much :) Jan 14 13:02:53 rboehme: ah, ok. no there will be nearly no problems... Jan 14 13:03:19 same modules are used in other smartphones, pcmcia cards, remote connections for traffic counting units etc tec Jan 14 13:04:39 thanks. Now to contact mvelopes to see if they have an API (I would like what I write to interface with them). Jan 14 13:05:56 also, does anyone know if there's a possibility of some emulated PalmOS application support? Is there some linux emulator that can be ported? Jan 14 13:07:12 rboehme: there is a linux emulator Jan 14 13:07:44 xcopilot, IIRC Jan 14 13:08:19 thanks. I'll look it up. Jan 14 13:09:04 well, the combination of you guys and reports of the Treo 680's battery life have stopped me dead in my tracks to get one. :) Jan 14 13:16:11 i wonder if one could emulate a palm on neo? (legally?) Jan 14 13:19:27 what's multitouch? Jan 14 13:20:38 being able to input in multiple points on the display at once Jan 14 13:20:47 is that important? Jan 14 13:22:23 How do apps get text entered? Is there a virtual keyboard, or handwriting? Jan 14 13:22:46 GoGi: it enables minority report style interfaces Jan 14 13:22:52 no handwriting as far as i understand Jan 14 13:23:14 heh Jan 14 13:23:33 get handwriting to work on linux tablet PCs and someone will port it to Neo Jan 14 13:24:15 heh. I gather it's a virual keyboard then, with numbers as well? Jan 14 13:24:19 handwriting is near useless Jan 14 13:24:23 GoGi: http://youtube.com/watch?v=esDhF9TgLPQ Jan 14 13:24:31 (and i'm writing this on a tablet pc)= Jan 14 13:25:14 palm-style graffiti is fine. Jan 14 13:35:56 I see in the specs a Global Locate AGPS chip in there. Does this mean OpenMoko will also be a GPS device? Any word on any GPS softwarte for it if so? Jan 14 13:37:46 openzaurus had handwriting recognition Jan 14 13:37:57 and you could actually create your own glyphs Jan 14 13:38:09 sorry, lemme rephrase Jan 14 13:38:12 too easrly in the morning Jan 14 13:38:25 openzaurus had hand-input graffiti style Jan 14 13:38:33 and you could create your own glyphs Jan 14 13:42:52 noidd: you mean "the graphical environments OZ provided had handwriting recognition" Jan 14 13:46:46 buz: you can emulate a palm legally, if you can get the ROMs legally. Now that's the question how xcopilot get's it's ROMs from? Jan 14 13:47:16 i'd say if you own a palm, you should be fine Jan 14 13:47:28 (maybe not, but who's gonna sue) Jan 14 13:47:52 and there's a way to emulate arm even on x86 machine Jan 14 13:48:20 IIRC there's a way to grab the ROM from an existing palm Jan 14 13:48:25 killall soffice.bin Jan 14 13:48:27 ooops Jan 14 13:48:44 su - Jan 14 13:48:49 qcm0298rCMdkfc3Fas Jan 14 13:48:49 # Jan 14 13:48:50 oops Jan 14 13:48:58 that's classic really Jan 14 13:49:06 Really :P Jan 14 13:49:07 ^^ Jan 14 13:49:20 I like passwordsafe Jan 14 13:49:21 or identify to a channel Jan 14 13:49:27 ? Jan 14 13:50:06 well, it looked like "Auto-Type" into the wrong window from a password managing application Jan 14 13:50:23 I stopped using that feature after it happened to me once Jan 14 13:52:19 that's why kwallet is smarter than that ;) Jan 14 14:14:17 koen: aye Jan 14 14:15:25 that is a hell of a password Lumpio-, it puts mine to shame and that's saying something Jan 14 14:18:44 hm, too few symbols in it, who ha such a weak password anyways ... :P Jan 14 14:19:24 noidd: I don't /actually/ use such a strong password >_> Jan 14 14:22:28 Lumpio-: how did you password end up in your client anyways? Jan 14 14:23:52 hmm, is developer.berlios.de down/ Jan 14 14:23:52 ? Jan 14 14:30:34 sannes: That's not my /actual/ password -_- Jan 14 14:31:04 Just couldn't resist doing that after 16:17:55 < buz> killall soffice.bin Jan 14 14:31:16 ah, that way :P Jan 14 14:31:54 nothing better to do while waiting for neo1973 release.. :D (me neither, ugh) Jan 14 14:40:46 sannes: grab the development stuff and get poking Jan 14 14:40:53 it'll give you a headstart when your device arrives Jan 14 14:53:56 if I want to use a DB backend for my app, what would work well with OpenMoko? Jan 14 14:54:56 noidd: openembedded ? Jan 14 14:55:18 rboehme: sqlite? >_> Jan 14 14:57:28 was thinking of that, just didn't remember the name. I think I should just be able to use it as a shared library, or will I have to recompile? Jan 14 15:00:06 in other words, is the .so library specific to a processor or linux kernel? Jan 14 15:01:08 rboehme: to architecture Jan 14 15:01:39 yessir Jan 14 15:01:47 openembedded Jan 14 15:02:21 noidd: openembedded is just a package management system more or less? Jan 14 15:03:05 management and build Jan 14 15:03:43 sannes: so I should just be able to recompile into a new .so, and use that. Jan 14 15:04:22 You use it to roll your own distribution for any of the supported targets Jan 14 15:05:08 rboehme: yes, if it isn't available as a package already .. Jan 14 15:06:32 noidd: If I already have bitbake installed, and a cross-compiler for the target I need .. Jan 14 15:06:38 ok. I see a "Linux" package at sqlite (assummed x86); is there any other place that I should look for a package Jan 14 15:06:42 the metadata I would guess Jan 14 15:06:53 its been a LONG time since I was a contributer to oe Jan 14 15:06:58 almost 2 years Jan 14 15:07:07 using ebuild and bitkeeper Jan 14 15:07:15 better ask someone more recient Jan 14 15:08:18 heh, I like ebuilds :P Jan 14 15:09:05 and did some package for a distro with .ipkgs (lightweight debian packages) for a small handheld once .. Jan 14 15:10:29 anyone here know what openmoko uses for bluetooth audio? Jan 14 15:10:47 bmidgley: I suspect bluez Jan 14 15:10:59 I mean the drivers on top of bluez Jan 14 15:11:07 bmidgley: no idea Jan 14 15:11:07 i've been maintaining bluetooth-alsa Jan 14 15:11:11 bmidgley: I know :) Jan 14 15:11:18 does a2dp use more or less battery than a wired headphone? Jan 14 15:11:21 bmidgley: I'll bring some neo's to bossaconference Jan 14 15:11:21 but it would need some tweaking to work embedded Jan 14 15:11:34 oh good Jan 14 15:12:02 more battery Jan 14 15:12:05 noidd: what I am more interested in is how to plug into the phone features :) I wonder if/how they are going to expose it .. Jan 14 15:12:08 mhh then i wont use it Jan 14 15:12:16 typically mp3 is decoded and recoded in sbc before transmission Jan 14 15:12:28 that sucks double Jan 14 15:12:45 there are a couple of sets out there that have an mp3 decoder Jan 14 15:12:56 so the battery question comes down to... Jan 14 15:13:00 oooh dbus Jan 14 15:13:10 is it more costly to decode mp3 or to transmit mp3 Jan 14 15:13:18 it seems I haven't looked at bluetooth-alsa.sf.net a while Jan 14 15:13:32 bmidgley: decoding takes ~30% cpu Jan 14 15:13:34 yeah it needed an overhaul finally did it Jan 14 15:13:36 using libmad Jan 14 15:13:55 or gst-plugin-mad if you swing that way Jan 14 15:15:08 there's also a question of signal degradation when decoding/encoding Jan 14 15:16:38 I don't know how costly mp3 encoding is Jan 14 15:16:53 but we don't ever encode mp3 Jan 14 15:17:02 ah Jan 14 15:17:09 only if it's already in that format Jan 14 15:17:12 I misread "typically mp3 is decoded and recoded in sbc before transmission" Jan 14 15:17:37 sbc = sideband compression? Jan 14 15:17:54 subband something something Jan 14 15:17:58 :) Jan 14 15:18:18 we could pre transcode the mp3 before putting them on the phone right? Jan 14 15:18:28 the neo will use a CSR radio if that makes a difference Jan 14 15:18:34 koen: "encoding"? Jan 14 15:18:38 Bus 1 Device 2: ID 0a12:0001 Cambridge Silicon Radio, Ltd Bluetooth Dongle (HCI mode) Jan 14 15:18:41 buz: sbc takes twice the space of mp3 Jan 14 15:18:58 and you need to put an sbc decoder in your media stack so wired audio works right Jan 14 15:18:59 aight, wired it will be Jan 14 15:19:19 i've yet to see somewhat decent BT earphones anyway Jan 14 15:19:48 and once you start with those receiver thingies you can go straight back to using a shuffle ;) Jan 14 15:20:30 using a csr radio gives us more options Jan 14 15:20:40 and it's the most solid one out there esp w linux Jan 14 15:20:45 yep Jan 14 15:20:50 * koen loathes TI radios Jan 14 15:21:52 lol: "Apple will likely wait until next year before unveiling their flavor of a mid-screen device, calling it a "FatPod" or something equally interesting." Jan 14 15:22:50 i wait for the day when apple sues fat people using ipods for smearing their hip image Jan 14 15:24:43 dumb question: how do I upgrade python-support in Ubuntu Dapper? I'm getting: bitbake: Depends: python-support (>= 0.2) but 0.1.1ubuntu1 is to be installed Jan 14 15:25:47 try the one from edgy Jan 14 15:25:49 it MIGHT work Jan 14 15:26:11 ii python-support 0.5.3ubuntu1 automated rebuilding support for python modu Jan 14 15:27:52 is there a posibilty to testdrive the applications available for the Neo1973 ? Jan 14 15:29:35 what apt-get line do I need for that? and do I need to disable it again afterwords so that I don't get Edgy's packages? Jan 14 15:31:29 changing the version of python will break lots of things Jan 14 15:31:47 scoopex: not yet Jan 14 15:31:53 Neo1973 should have been Crash1947 Jan 14 15:32:15 rboehme: google for "pinning" Jan 14 15:32:19 and apt Jan 14 15:41:35 whats the business with 1973 anyway Jan 14 16:00:29 motorola did a testdrive of the first anaog mobile phone or something to that extent Jan 14 16:00:34 in 1973 Jan 14 16:00:51 lol Jan 14 16:01:44 pop quiz: what crashed in 1947? Jan 14 16:02:45 roswell= Jan 14 16:02:56 we still dont know what exactly crashed Jan 14 16:05:54 good answer Jan 14 17:26:42 * koen wonders how the moko code sprint is coming along Jan 14 17:38:44 anyone know if the Neo1973 comes with any GPS software to use the GPS chip in it? Jan 14 17:38:56 define "gps software" Jan 14 17:39:16 it has agpsd, which is hopefully api compatible with gpsd Jan 14 17:39:34 i'm sure it does have mapping softs Jan 14 17:39:37 something where at the least I know what GPS coordinates I'm at, possibly able to show a map and do driving directions that update Jan 14 17:40:36 no, it won't have that Jan 14 17:40:38 some userspace gps soft to show the gps date should not be the problem. you can use what freshmeat lists :) Jan 14 17:40:51 navigation software is mostly commercial. Jan 14 17:40:54 unless you install maemo-mapper-nohildon Jan 14 17:40:55 koen: I can find google for gpsd, not for agpsd. Do you have a link? Jan 14 17:41:00 there are not many free maps Jan 14 17:41:22 rboehme, that's the one propietary bit from the agps chip provider Jan 14 17:41:46 with maemo-mapper you need at least maps Jan 14 17:42:01 greentux: and driving directions Jan 14 17:42:10 the agpsd is included. closed at time... Jan 14 17:42:13 greentux: maemo-mapper downloads maps for you :) Jan 14 17:42:19 as well as directions Jan 14 17:42:22 koen: yes, bt which maps? navteq? Jan 14 17:42:42 yes Jan 14 17:42:56 koen: I read the idea of maemo-mapper. But at moment its not useful for a car navigation systems every day use. Jan 14 17:43:34 people who need navigation shouldn't be allowed to drive IMO Jan 14 17:44:15 koen: ;) you are from netherland right? Jan 14 17:44:24 yes Jan 14 17:44:37 koen: so you have water channels, no streets. Jan 14 17:44:45 and I usually plan each trip before entering the car Jan 14 17:45:28 everytime its better to know where to go if you start the engine, but sometimes you have to change the way ... Jan 14 17:46:16 I'm not saying it isn't usefull Jan 14 17:47:33 I use navigation when I have to be in a citycenter with lots of one way street Jan 14 17:47:34 finally I agree that maemo-mapper ist a very useful starting point for the endless field of neo navigation projects Jan 14 17:47:40 (or water channels) Jan 14 17:47:44 ;) Jan 14 17:48:31 there's one slight problem with the update feature of maemo mapper: it uses position, not direction Jan 14 17:51:03 there is a mobile navigation service in netherland with no charge... moment Jan 14 17:51:23 nav4all Jan 14 17:53:22 doesn't work on my phone :( Jan 14 17:53:37 what phone? Jan 14 17:53:44 nokia 6210 Jan 14 17:53:54 ehm Jan 14 17:53:55 6021 Jan 14 17:54:07 worked on my 6630, but is feature overloaded Jan 14 17:54:48 I prefer these offboard navigation... Jan 14 17:55:20 girlfriend + map Jan 14 17:55:24 works wonders Jan 14 17:55:29 lol Jan 14 17:55:36 you end up in totally new places Jan 14 17:57:55 mhh there are now standalone 120? gsm navi thingies Jan 14 17:58:02 maps cant be THAT expensive anymore Jan 14 17:58:42 there's maps and actual usefull data Jan 14 17:58:48 like address -> coord mapping Jan 14 18:01:22 google maps ? Jan 14 18:16:35 well a car navi thingy would need coord <-> addr mappin Jan 14 18:16:44 pretty useless without Jan 14 20:45:35 can anyone trigger the procrastinant me with some neo information I could just as well read tomorrow ?-) Jan 14 20:46:49 FIC caved in. Jan 14 20:46:57 they're adding that V12 in the hole. Jan 14 20:47:07 ?---) Jan 14 20:47:09 through a trans-dimensional warp. Jan 14 20:47:32 * xkr47 clicks "Read more..." Jan 14 20:47:54 xkr47: what till tomorrow Jan 14 20:48:05 xkr47: unfortunately the driver software won't be ready until Q4 Jan 14 20:48:08 xkr47: they are on a codesprint right now Jan 14 20:48:20 k Jan 14 20:48:41 well I'm trying to put off work so I thought maybe you had some interesting stuff I could read ;) Jan 14 20:48:51 anyway, what is Stephmw talking about ?-) Jan 14 20:49:09 the long awaited v12 engine Jan 14 20:49:19 http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Jan 14 20:49:28 you need to keep with the programme Jan 14 20:54:41 nice link Jan 14 20:54:42 :) Jan 14 20:55:03 Stephmw: are drugs legal there? Jan 14 20:55:20 greentux: nope, this isn't .nl :) Jan 14 20:56:40 Sean reads this log and builds a V12 in the neo... and the? Nobody wants that... Jan 14 20:56:56 did someone mention .nl? Jan 14 20:57:22 no koen no.... nl means "not legal" Jan 14 20:57:48 we get a lot of "tourists" over here Jan 14 20:57:55 being close to the border and all Jan 14 20:58:19 close to the bordel you mean? Jan 14 20:58:58 if it would happen that the kernel installed in neo doesn't boot, what options are there ? Jan 14 20:59:25 xkr47: besides screaming and kicking? Jan 14 20:59:27 say if you installed a new kernel.. does it have a bootloader like grub or something ? Jan 14 20:59:41 it has uboot Jan 14 20:59:45 well .. what hapscreaming and kicking Jan 14 20:59:51 which is a zillion times nices as uboot Jan 14 20:59:51 well .. what happens after the screaming and kicking.. Jan 14 20:59:56 ehm Jan 14 21:00:02 uboot is nicer as grub Jan 14 21:00:06 ok Jan 14 21:00:06 grub is pure evil Jan 14 21:00:16 kboot ;) Jan 14 21:00:32 grub has a bit fragile system.. Jan 14 21:00:58 but it works nice if it succeeds loading itself :) Jan 14 21:01:29 xkr47: even then it can fail Jan 14 21:01:36 because grub reimplemented all file systems Jan 14 21:01:37 wellwell.. .) Jan 14 21:01:43 sure Jan 14 21:01:51 luckily read-only support only :) Jan 14 21:01:53 imagine grub the monster reading the monstrous file system xfs Jan 14 21:01:59 where the btree code is larger than ext3 Jan 14 21:02:08 and 3 different btree implementations exist Jan 14 21:02:36 well personally I think every boot loader should have it's own partition Jan 14 21:02:55 like with os/2? Jan 14 21:03:00 yep Jan 14 21:03:01 the only OS where that is the case Jan 14 21:03:04 AFAIK Jan 14 21:03:32 osx has also afaik Jan 14 21:03:52 but if only pcs count then.. :) Jan 14 21:05:07 what does mac os x use? DOS disk labels? Jan 14 21:05:30 don't recall exactly, just that there were some boot-related partitions Jan 14 21:06:02 its a shame that sehr is no development around kboot. Jan 14 21:09:36 * xkr47 hopes that nothing from the preliminary hardware list was dropped Jan 14 21:18:31 has anybody started a wiki with "what we know this far" ?-D Jan 14 21:18:40 or is the topic doing that job ;-) Jan 14 21:19:21 * xkr47 just finds a lot of info that should not get lost in irc logs :) Jan 14 23:06:14 have there been any statements as to what the 2nd neo version will or will not have? Jan 14 23:07:11 no Jan 14 23:07:59 Only that it will be pricier which means more features. Jan 14 23:07:59 they said, wifi was for the 2nd version i thought? Jan 14 23:08:28 perhaps somebody said something. true is only what you can read on the website Jan 14 23:08:34 yeah Jan 14 23:09:07 Or what you hear from the devs. :) Jan 14 23:09:27 Psi: If they are able to have a free driver, wlan will go in Jan 14 23:11:21 stefan_schmidt: devs are the one side, fic is the other side. i think the wlan driver was not th ereason... Jan 14 23:11:23 i wonder what the chances are of 3G Jan 14 23:11:43 the neo will not only be available with linux as os. Jan 14 23:14:24 greentux: But devs are in contact with FIC. :) Anyway, perhaps you know more then me. That's fine. Jan 14 23:15:00 stefan_schmidt: definitely I dont know more then you. thats sure. Jan 14 23:15:06 greentux: I also heard about the windows version, but never heard anything new about it after the first 'there are two versions' info Jan 14 23:16:40 the free driver question is one I dont understand. for instance the ugly 3945 binary daemon... Jan 14 23:16:51 for bsd there is a free version. but for linux not. Jan 14 23:17:29 nobody has the heart to port it from bsd to linux, because intel dont like that.... Jan 14 23:18:11 greentux: Indeed binary user-space daemon is ugly. Intel announced a new driver without need for this daemon. Jan 14 23:18:16 harald wrote in his blog something like "if ther eis no open version till end of year I write one, its no difficult". But I cant see it Jan 14 23:19:16 Why should somebody do the work intel will hopefully do. Jan 14 23:19:50 Howdy. Jan 14 23:20:14 But I guess they just try to move it into firmware again. Which raises the firmware question again. :( Jan 14 23:20:19 hi Virtuall Jan 14 23:20:21 aargh Jan 14 23:20:25 hi vitaminmoo Jan 14 23:20:28 "will hopefully do". ok. will see. the code is available for bsd Jan 14 23:20:35 hi ! Jan 14 23:20:41 :) Jan 14 23:20:42 Hehe. Jan 14 23:20:55 xkr47: always like a gamble :) Jan 14 23:21:13 dammit... irssi doesn't do it with blank, you need at least one letter Jan 14 23:22:07 So this probably gets asked 500x a day, but checking the page every 4 hours is getting to me. Any idea when these things will be aquireable? Jan 14 23:22:19 vitaminmoo: See topic Jan 14 23:22:28 No date yet Jan 14 23:23:13 stefan_schmidt: urf, thank yee. Jan 14 23:23:54 so I dont believe that closed driver is th eproblem to integrate... Jan 14 23:24:54 greentux: No problem to integrate. Problem to don't like it. Jan 14 23:25:49 stefan_schmidt: FIC dont like it? Jan 14 23:26:52 It shouldn't matter what FIC doesn't like. Jan 14 23:26:55 =D Jan 14 23:27:51 greentux: People make decision don't like it. Don't ask me who. Jan 14 23:28:07 PirateHead: You mean they have ask you? Jan 14 23:28:47 kinda makes sense to bring out a cheaper version to start with, get everyone hooked on the device and wanting more features, so when the 2nd version comes out people are willing to pay for it. Jan 14 23:29:07 stefan_schmidt: I don't know what you're talking about. If it's software integration you're talking about, open source can fix things FIC doesn't. Jan 14 23:29:15 If it's hardware, obviously it does matter what FIC says. Jan 14 23:29:54 Psi: I'm probably going to buy the first and second version, provided there's some time inbetween. Jan 14 23:29:58 me too Jan 14 23:30:00 and to satisfy some wlan manufacturer to open the drivers... Jan 14 23:30:25 yeah Jan 14 23:30:47 is the disconnection between the developers and us to avoid the problem of wanting too much and never getting anything released ? Jan 14 23:30:55 * stefan_schmidt is just sick of the 'we need wlan' discussion. Don't get him wrong. Jan 14 23:31:02 also, it gets the app development going so that when the 2nd version comes out there are lots of apps for it Jan 14 23:31:07 greentux: the OpenMoko platform is a good selling point in negotiations with wlan manufacturers. If they open some drivers, they open themselves to a dedicated user base for their hardware. Jan 14 23:31:08 FIC has a business case. sure. road had also a business case. but they have only prototypes. Jan 14 23:31:09 * xkr47 doesn't get stefan_schmidt wrong :) Jan 14 23:31:40 PirateHead, good point.. Jan 14 23:31:51 let's hope the user base is big enough :) Jan 14 23:31:56 ^^ Jan 14 23:32:45 i think it is, but tools will have to be written so average coders are able to write stuff for the phone Jan 14 23:32:53 * xkr47 thinks he should make a bare-bones gui for grandparents and give mokos to all of them :) Jan 14 23:33:16 ok, in 4 weeks we will know more :) Jan 14 23:33:20 * greentux goe sto bed. cu Jan 14 23:33:23 xkr47, hehe Jan 14 23:33:26 4 weeks ?-) Jan 14 23:33:37 xkr47, its feb then Jan 14 23:33:47 * xkr47 got his hopes up already :) Jan 14 23:33:54 goodnight greentux Jan 14 23:35:27 anyone know if there is actually going to be preorders? Jan 14 23:36:07 * xkr47 thinks the question is "if there is going to have been preorders" Jan 14 23:36:08 :) Jan 14 23:36:21 like "doh, missed it" Jan 14 23:36:44 heh Jan 14 23:36:52 why would preorders stop? Jan 14 23:37:03 how many on this channel is involved nda-involved in the moko project ? Jan 14 23:37:36 not I Jan 14 23:37:42 psi because they are widely available ;-) Jan 14 23:37:54 * xkr47 wonders how many linux-based mokos will be available per month Jan 14 23:38:08 xkr I was thinking of writing a find me program for a moko and attaching one to my dog Jan 14 23:38:12 I heard there will be 100000 windows mokos going out, but.. Jan 14 23:38:24 I'm hearing a few 100 to begin with and scaling for demand Jan 14 23:38:33 motorola's selling a butload of linux phones... not like there isn't a market Jan 14 23:38:39 doh, maybe I won't get mine in feb then :P Jan 14 23:38:39 xkr47, although, im not sure if people in here would admit to being involved even if they were, would get swamped with questions otherwise Jan 14 23:38:54 I mean I will try, but.. Jan 14 23:38:59 alas my cell phone display died, I can call out... but need a new phone soonish Jan 14 23:39:03 .. there are more than 100 on this channel already Jan 14 23:39:22 I'd love for the open moko to turn into a homing device if my dog got lost Jan 14 23:39:32 hmm let's also hope there are no dead pixels in the displays Jan 14 23:39:52 any new news on the hackers lunchbox? Jan 14 23:39:53 very true Jan 14 23:40:01 I think an update was mentioned before this weekend Jan 14 23:40:16 Psi, exactly .. so that's why I asked for the number only Jan 14 23:40:20 although, you could redesign the menu system so the bright pixel was part of it :P Jan 14 23:40:20 xkr47: I've not yet had a display with dead pixels on a mobile phone Jan 14 23:42:05 I mean there is only 307200 pixels!! Jan 14 23:42:05 :) Jan 14 23:42:23 yeah, its much easier to use A grade panels when you only need a few pixels Jan 14 23:42:30 less wastage Jan 14 23:42:30 I guess it's easier to discard faulty tfts with low resolutions than ones with high resolution Jan 14 23:42:39 .. Jan 14 23:43:16 mind you, I've had any number of duff keyboard protos :) Jan 14 23:43:36 *on protos Jan 15 00:29:05 Hi Jan 15 00:29:22 What's the word on the street lads ? Jan 15 00:30:03 "vote bush" Jan 15 00:30:39 lol Jan 15 00:41:43 FIC need to get this out the door soon before more of this iphone crap comes on stage Jan 15 00:42:13 [02:08] mickey|berlin: btw., we will announce a clear roadmap and more details very soon Jan 15 00:42:13 [02:08] mickey|berlin: working on that statement tomorrow Jan 15 00:42:30 Then they need to get it on CNN and BBC news, Linux smart phone that's open... Jan 15 00:42:48 Hi Jan 15 00:43:02 Is that some one who works for FIC ? Jan 15 00:43:27 the one and only mickeyl Jan 15 00:44:18 Right I only drop in and out of this IRC now a days as this project started to seem dead Jan 15 00:44:35 But seems it may be picking up agine Jan 15 00:44:57 When are people going to see a proper site about the phone @ http://www.openmoko.com/ Jan 15 00:47:31 this channel is far from dead :) Jan 15 00:47:57 it has trippled in size in the last couple of weeks Jan 15 00:47:59 edwardocallaghan, dead is more an adjective describing the developers' statuses than the project status ;) Jan 15 00:48:44 * xkr47 wonders if the project has enough beta testers Jan 15 00:48:54 apt is dead Jan 15 00:49:04 ? Jan 15 00:49:31 apt: why are you dead? Jan 15 00:49:35 jaebird: I think you lost me on that one Jan 15 00:50:09 apt: botsnack Jan 15 00:50:09 jaebird: thanks Jan 15 00:51:31 Yes I am talking about some time ago now Jan 15 00:51:55 But it looks like things are coming back on track with this phone Jan 15 00:52:06 But they said Jan... now Feb... Jan 15 00:53:21 yeah but this is the norm for the industry Jan 15 00:53:36 how many times has Vista been pushed back...it is almost laughable! Jan 15 00:53:47 I know but FIC need to get this one out the door Jan 15 00:53:48 a reason was given for the delay, although i cant remember where i read it so i dunno if its legit Jan 15 00:54:02 What reason ? Jan 15 00:54:10 if they make good on Feb, that would be a first IMHO Jan 15 00:54:16 they added BT Jan 15 00:54:23 not sure if that was the reason you heard Jan 15 00:54:51 Maybe it was something to do with the stack for BT Jan 15 00:54:54 reason i read was "What they expected to be the final prototype was found to have a small bug and so they needed to make another prototype" Jan 15 00:55:16 hardware bug Jan 15 00:55:48 I read that in irc too ;) Jan 15 00:56:02 sounds good to me...I find it amazing that they can actually release something this quick after prototype Jan 15 00:56:26 if Feb happens I will be very happy Jan 15 00:57:03 well, ya dunno when that actually happened, could have been november last year for example Jan 15 00:57:04 FIC are big, I mean really big! Jan 15 00:57:44 So if they pull there own wight then they could get it out it weeks Jan 15 00:58:42 that is probably how they will make their stated goal Jan 15 01:00:21 g'night Jan 15 01:05:30 I hope in Feb I can just order my OpenMoko and get it, soon. My Treo is dying, and it seems like it's counting on dying very quickly, before it's replaced. Jan 15 01:06:13 Yes my razor is dead Jan 15 01:06:22 But some how I am making it work Jan 15 01:06:47 I think soon I will have to connect a PP3 to its USB port to power it Jan 15 01:06:49 lol Jan 15 01:06:54 * xkr47 hopes that fic can meet the demand :) Jan 15 01:07:04 mm. My problem si all of my finances are on my Treo, so if it dies I go to using pencil and stacks of paper for a while Jan 15 01:10:27 I suggest you go using pencil a little before so you have a backup of your data Jan 15 01:15:39 oh dear Jan 15 01:18:33 I think they need to set a date now and have some pictures of the device on there site Jan 15 01:21:55 Good night all **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jan 15 02:59:58 2007