**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 16 02:59:57 2007 Jan 16 03:17:03 is there a general linux-based mobile device IRC channel on this network? Jan 16 03:28:00 is there an explanation of openmoko out there somewhere? there's not much info on the openmoko.com web site. Jan 16 03:30:47 SyntaxNinja: mailing list archive Jan 16 03:33:09 ahh Jan 16 03:35:32 the available info is still pretty scanty --- but the mailing list archive is where to look Jan 16 03:41:00 hmm. I wonder if it's intentional, or just that busy folks haven't gotten around to putting more information on the web site. Jan 16 03:41:15 I've been in the market for a linux-based phone that I can hack for a while, but it's surprisingly hard to find good information. Jan 16 03:42:10 SyntaxNinja: get to know openembedded, wait for the hardware release Jan 16 03:45:23 can I ask a nieve question, is openmoko meant to compete with trolltech's qtopia? is there any relationship between the projects? Jan 16 03:45:53 SyntaxNinja: the green phone is nothing but a developer kit Jan 16 03:46:05 it's not really directly competing Jan 16 03:47:10 and openmoko is an entire platform, you mean? Jan 16 03:47:28 qtopia uses trolltech's Qt, OpenMoko uses GTK, so on an interface level they're "competing", just like Gnome and KDE. On a deeper level, I believe there are more cooperation, in that code should flow both ways. Jan 16 03:47:56 the hardware release is coming soon? next month or so? is that a commercial releas,e or just to developers? Jan 16 03:47:59 qtopia is not open so no 'real' competition Jan 16 03:48:11 SyntaxNinja: you aren't supposed to use the greenphone as an actual phone; you are supposed to use moko Jan 16 03:48:30 ahh, that's what I was getting at... qtopia is not open source? Jan 16 03:48:43 It is. Kind of. In a way :) Jan 16 03:48:58 heh Jan 16 03:49:22 Tv: I'm confused. greenphone is the qtopia project, and you can't use it as a phone? you mean basically just that it's only in a development release? Jan 16 03:49:33 SyntaxNinja: It's for developers only. Jan 16 03:49:33 umm.. I mean greenphone is not open, qtopia is dual licensed like qt is Jan 16 03:49:42 I was actually wondering about the Neo1973 Jan 16 03:49:50 SyntaxNinja: it's meant for vendors who want to build their own linux-based phone, to use as a prototype Jan 16 03:50:01 greenphone is a "proof of concept", I believe. Jan 16 03:50:02 Tv: ahh. interesting Jan 16 03:50:05 openmoko is something you can give your mother Jan 16 03:50:15 my mother already has a crackberry ;) Jan 16 03:50:36 Gah. I'll be quiet now: Tv says everything I want to say, but much faster :( Jan 16 03:50:46 ...and much better. Jan 16 03:51:04 hehe Jan 16 03:51:13 the openmoko hardware is also going to be sold with closed-source firmware in some market or other (china I think), so the linux openmoko project is kind of piggybacking on that hardware Jan 16 03:51:15 so... are there any open-platform linux-based phones available now? Jan 16 03:51:32 motorola has a linux-based pda-phone or two Jan 16 03:51:34 wiml: and the openmoko hardware is the neo? Jan 16 03:51:47 SyntaxNinja: yes Jan 16 03:52:22 OK, I'll google aorund for motorola phones... Jan 16 03:53:02 so am I right in thinking that openmoko is meant to be a software platform that could run on a linux-based phone, and any phone vendor could just choose to use openmoko instead of developing an in-house software platform? Jan 16 03:53:08 well.. I have heard that lots of Motorola Linux phones is closed, just underlying OS is open Jan 16 03:53:37 SyntaxNinja: yes, a bit like Fedora Jan 16 03:56:04 Ok cool. you guys have been very helpful. I guess I'll keep holding out for a hackable linux phone. hope it happens soon :) Jan 16 03:56:20 SyntaxNinja: have a look at http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8591201260.html Jan 16 03:56:29 <_ASK> it will, it seems that it's going to be released on fabruary Jan 16 03:56:35 It basicly say exactly what we just did :) Jan 16 03:57:51 nice article. It was the Nokia N800 that started me wondering abuot this stuff... why the heck isn't that a phone? Jan 16 03:58:11 SyntaxNinja: because of nokia internal politics Jan 16 03:58:23 SyntaxNinja: they don't want to threaten their own phones Jan 16 03:58:33 and probably don't want to open phone related stuff Jan 16 03:58:50 how lame Jan 16 03:58:51 ie.. as Tv said, politics ;-) Jan 16 03:59:06 I think maemo is an experiment for nokia: eventually, when maemo runs good enough, they might switch their phones to linux Jan 16 03:59:11 I played with an N800 the other day, and it's really nice! if it were a phone, I'd probably buy it today. Jan 16 03:59:29 I have a treo now, and really like the qwerty keyboard. Jan 16 04:01:20 SyntaxNinja: yeah. I've never touched a N800 or 770, but I've actually considered buying one to replace my phone even though it lacks the ability to call anyone Jan 16 04:01:37 Luckily, I found this project before I did. Jan 16 04:02:31 heh Jan 16 04:03:36 link from mailing list, not up to date with Finland: http://msmobiles.com/catalog/i.php/578.html Jan 16 04:09:31 so is there an emulator for openmoko or openembedded (?) where I can play w/ the phone software now? should I troll around http://www.openembedded.org/ until I find some software to build? Jan 16 04:10:03 SyntaxNinja: qemu Jan 16 04:10:58 openmoko.org promises to be where the phone software will be when it gets released Jan 16 04:13:18 Tv: qemu us just a pc emulator, right? but ozamosi is saying the software isn't available yet? Jan 16 04:13:41 SyntaxNinja: did you read up on openembedded? Jan 16 04:14:18 Tv: sorry, just a little bit. I'm taking a broad reading of a lot of things right now :) I'll read openembedded.org if that's where to look :) Jan 16 05:31:02 as far as I know peak has been 157 2007-01-15 21:35:25 (EET) Jan 16 07:18:50 join #zaurus Jan 16 07:18:55 ;) oops Jan 16 08:35:15 morning Jan 16 08:35:30 morning Jan 16 08:46:04 http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/75923446/ so maybe next version can do without global locate? Jan 16 08:46:44 and use the real estate for wifi or more flash ;) Jan 16 09:30:31 hmm.. I wonder when there will be GPS/Bluetooth/WiFi chip Jan 16 09:43:27 when CSR buys a wifi vendor ;) Jan 16 09:43:30 or vice versa Jan 16 10:33:00 mickey|gprs: gprs from what? :) Jan 16 10:35:04 ICE train using a MOTO A780 Jan 16 10:35:12 unfortunately not yet using a Neo :) Jan 16 10:35:14 but soon Jan 16 10:35:24 I was just hoping Jan 16 10:35:25 mickey|gprs: hi Jan 16 10:35:55 mickey|gprs: when can we expect the "today" announcement :) ? Jan 16 10:35:57 mickey|gprs: flat-rate data package? Jan 16 10:36:35 greentux, ok let's stop harrassing him now :) Jan 16 10:37:45 greentux: hey. i expect / hope during the next 12h Jan 16 10:37:53 Stephmw: yeah. flatrate Jan 16 10:38:41 any idea if simapps will be supported on r1 btw? Jan 16 10:38:44 mickey|gprs: good :) Jan 16 10:39:02 mickey|gprs: good journey, will the openmoko be @gsmcongress in barcelona? Jan 16 10:41:24 im having problems signing on to the mailing lists Jan 16 10:41:58 kabturek, it took 2 days for me Jan 16 10:42:01 so be patient :) Jan 16 10:42:11 (I don't say it's normal but) Jan 16 10:42:46 no i got the emails but have an error when i try to confirm it Jan 16 10:43:11 * hrw|work wants j2me for one app Jan 16 10:43:34 hrw|work: ;-) Jan 16 10:43:38 hrw|work: which app? Jan 16 10:43:39 hrw|work: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000884.html Jan 16 10:44:10 koen: I know, I know Jan 16 10:44:19 kabturek, it worked for me (thanks for reminding, had forgotten to go confirm) Jan 16 10:44:30 Stephmw: city communication Jan 16 10:44:54 hrw|work: hmmm, not familiar with that one Jan 16 10:46:43 Stephmw: it is for local communication only Jan 16 10:48:31 hrw|work, local as in ? ;) Jan 16 10:49:41 kabturek: Ginger supports Poznań only currently but allow to create 'rozkłady' in xml format Jan 16 10:50:16 hrw|work, oh i was hoping for Warsaw :) Jan 16 10:51:59 Stephmw: I heard yesterday that the STK is an overwhelmingingly large spec that no one likes to implement if it's not superneccessary Jan 16 10:52:02 hrw|work: which one? Jan 16 10:52:47 mickey|gprs: is it implementable by non-FIC? Jan 16 10:53:25 mickey|gprs, there were some rumours here yesterday that you will announce something today ;) Jan 16 10:53:36 greentux: when is this congress in Barcelona? Jan 16 10:53:58 mickey|gprs: 12.-15.feb Jan 16 10:54:39 mickey|gprs: Ginger Jan 16 10:54:45 mickey|gprs: so it would be a nice place for "openess" demonstration Jan 16 10:56:48 Stephmw: absolutely. AFAIK it's not rocket science, it's just huge. It sits on top of the AT command layer which is open, so anyone could do it. Jan 16 10:57:03 not me, but yes, there is supposed to be an announcement within 12h or so Jan 16 10:57:11 i'm just a tiny contractor, i have no power to announce anything :) Jan 16 10:57:19 greentux: that should fit with one part of our schedule. I'll point our PM to it Jan 16 10:58:29 mickey|gprs: that's fine then - it'll eventually get done. I need simapps for handset-initiated settings queries, as well as for various bits like micropayment auth/encr Jan 16 10:58:53 mickey|gprs: ok fine, if there is some support needed... Jan 16 11:01:32 interesting Jan 16 11:03:03 yes, interesting Jan 16 11:06:57 you did know you can store certificates on a simcard and get stuff encrypted using them via simapps, right? Jan 16 11:07:12 it's fast enough for low quality voice ;) Jan 16 11:07:23 although the connection to the apps is serial only Jan 16 11:08:01 I would have thought some of this support would have been required for PIN, PUK, PUK2 support, but I'm no expert Jan 16 11:08:24 PIN, PUK, PUK2, IDIOT3 Jan 16 11:08:50 Stephmw, is the sim accessed through the GSM processor ? Jan 16 11:08:58 (or somebody else =) Jan 16 11:09:08 heh Jan 16 11:09:20 absolutely, everything goes through the AT command interface Jan 16 11:09:39 so the only interface to the GSM processor is through AT commands ? Jan 16 11:10:04 yeah Jan 16 11:10:32 (and analog audio, if you count that, apparently) Jan 16 11:11:01 AT%AUDIO=808179F3390137 Jan 16 11:11:02 ?-) Jan 16 11:11:07 right Jan 16 11:11:21 I hope the protocol works better than in the nokia premicell I have at home Jan 16 11:11:37 if you send data too quickly it acts as if it was never sent :P Jan 16 11:11:59 (the premicell is a gsm phone primarily meant to be connected to a computer) Jan 16 11:12:06 it's like 25 x 15 cm :) Jan 16 11:12:38 ah Jan 16 11:13:00 no, the TI chipset works pretty good Jan 16 11:13:05 nice nice Jan 16 11:13:10 no problems whatsoever sofar Jan 16 11:13:10 but of course, we didn't do exhaustive tests yet Jan 16 11:13:20 so you don't have to do usleep(10) here and there.. :) Jan 16 11:14:09 don't think so, but you'll see the code soon Jan 16 11:15:09 'soon' or 'trolltech soon'? Jan 16 11:15:18 will the code be out at a different time ? Jan 16 11:15:30 or is it getting merged into the kernel already :) Jan 16 11:15:45 I mean linus' Jan 16 11:18:41 xkr47: they use 2.6.17.14 kernel so will work on merging some time after release rather Jan 16 11:19:04 xkr47: 2.6.18 has some changes which neo1973 is not ready for yet Jan 16 11:19:09 I thought so Jan 16 11:19:13 oh Jan 16 11:20:07 some complex internal stuff or some api changes? Jan 16 11:20:24 I guess it will eventually overcome the 2.6.18 challenges Jan 16 11:20:46 I vaguely remember something about interrupts Jan 16 11:21:02 genirq got merged in 2.6.17, right? Jan 16 11:21:38 ah, no 2.6.18 Jan 16 11:21:41 http://kernelnewbies.org/Linux_2_6_18#head-f8ff44dc826426ffbaf35cd74e83722e2ee4a491 Jan 16 11:23:09 the AT interface library is userland Jan 16 11:24:23 anyway at such a stage of a project, you try not to change anything if you don't absolutely need. what you're shooting for is a first release and then update later. Jan 16 11:24:53 mickey|gprs: release with gtk 2.6.10 and then will try to reverse numbers? Jan 16 11:24:57 mickey|gprs, certainly Jan 16 11:24:58 2.6.10 -> 2.10.6 Jan 16 11:25:09 mickey|gprs: OTA firmware updates? /hides Jan 16 11:25:21 hrw|work, nicely reversed ;D Jan 16 11:27:44 hrw|work: yeah Jan 16 11:28:18 Stephmw: rather not Jan 16 11:28:44 mickey|gprs: scary thought, isn't it :) Jan 16 11:29:16 "Do not boot your device while auto-updating firmware, thank you!" Jan 16 11:29:20 it is Jan 16 11:29:20 i wouldn't want to let that happen transparently Jan 16 11:30:03 thankfully, the BP has no access to anything RAM or flash anyway Jan 16 11:51:03 Hmm Jan 16 11:51:07 wiki: http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/iPhone Jan 16 11:51:19 Says "multitouch", IRC channel says "multitouch no" Jan 16 11:51:38 can you fix? Jan 16 11:51:42 (the wiki, not the IRC channel) Jan 16 11:52:18 Sure, erledigt :) Jan 16 11:52:34 thanks Jan 16 11:54:08 mickey|gprs: since you're using GPRS at the moment with a flatrate: which one would you suggest in Germany? I just need an "always available" ssh-console but don't want to pay my whole salary for it ;) Jan 16 11:54:32 that's tough Jan 16 11:54:40 basically there is only one affordable one Jan 16 11:54:47 BASE voice+internet flatrate Jan 16 11:54:50 mickey|gprs: the 'within 12 hours' means 'when sean gets internet access'? Jan 16 11:54:51 50EUR a month Jan 16 11:54:56 everything else is more expensive Jan 16 11:55:26 koen: yep. + making a document out of random points Jan 16 11:55:31 that's a bit on the hefty side itself... Jan 16 11:55:42 koen: but he can do that while he flies back to Taipeh Jan 16 11:55:55 mjr: true, but you won't get lower atm. Jan 16 11:56:06 yeah, I got that Jan 16 11:56:10 mickey|gprs: Hmm, I currently have an E-Plus company contract for my phone and must say, I'm not very happy with the coverage especially outside of towns. :-/ But I feared that it would be the cheapest ;-) Jan 16 11:56:11 sorry for germans Jan 16 11:56:14 thanks Jan 16 11:56:48 np. indeed t-mobile still has the better network here Jan 16 11:57:18 mickey|gprs: http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6896388758.html Jan 16 11:57:36 "The MotoRizr Z6 -- expected to ship by mid-year, but already being demonstrated at the CES show this week in Las Vegas -- is probably based on a Freescale i.MX31." Jan 16 11:57:47 that is some serious processing power for a phone Jan 16 11:58:41 that's nothing compared to v2 Jan 16 11:58:42 * mickey|gprs bites his tounge Jan 16 11:59:11 ah, the v2 will have a core4quadro at 200GHz Jan 16 11:59:14 how does it look like? Jan 16 11:59:46 razr meets tosa Jan 16 11:59:47 processing power looks good, however the "Full QVGA (240x320) color display" bit makes one snicker a bit Jan 16 12:00:00 koen: dual core4quad Jan 16 12:00:13 mjr: most of phones has 176x220 Jan 16 12:00:29 I know, just the concept of full. quarter. Jan 16 12:01:25 1 Jan 16 12:01:37 koen: any idea _how_ open the Motorola will be? Currently they seem to have some closed parts. Jan 16 12:01:49 seems that the motorola lacks in openness department Jan 16 12:01:58 http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS3930753667.html Jan 16 12:02:39 mostly I deduce this from "Mobilinux appears to be available today, under a subscription-based, non-royalty bearing license." Jan 16 12:06:44 motorola lacks in most departments really Jan 16 12:07:06 personally i think they can't even design, the razr is a hideous phone Jan 16 12:07:32 can't spell either Jan 16 12:07:43 does moto still control freescale? Jan 16 12:07:54 (would make sense to buy chips from a daughter company) Jan 16 12:08:23 buz: fwiw, sharp doesn't use sharp arm cpu's in their own products Jan 16 12:08:41 mhh my toshiba notebook came with hitachi hd Jan 16 12:08:49 (even though toshiba makes tons of mobile hd) Jan 16 12:09:03 and the hitachi one is a noise SoB Jan 16 12:12:27 v2 needs a cpu fast enough to emulate a fpga in software Jan 16 12:19:05 hmm, doesn't the iphone have a greater resolution than neo1973 ??? Jan 16 12:19:19 * xkr47 was looking at meyerm_'s link Jan 16 12:19:22 bigger screen, half the pixels Jan 16 12:20:06 woot!! neo ownage Jan 16 12:20:22 :D Jan 16 12:20:34 tho i would love a neo with screen oer the whole size of the case Jan 16 12:20:38 and no round case Jan 16 12:21:04 I think round is perfect for pockets but I've stopped keeping it in my pockets because I tend to bump into table corners and so :D Jan 16 12:22:34 round also makes it harder to drop the device on it's edges ^^ Jan 16 12:23:15 meyerm_, when was that wiki pulled up and by who ?-) Jan 16 12:23:21 has it been announced here before? Jan 16 12:23:26 how fast would be fast enough? Jan 16 12:24:13 anything with half the processing power of an average pc ;)= Jan 16 12:24:38 xkr47: I don't know ;) Jan 16 12:25:35 maybe it should be in the topic, maybe not Jan 16 12:25:53 has anyone suggested anything about the battery life in units other than Ah ? Jan 16 12:26:34 mickey|gprs: That raises another question: do you know if the accu will be in some standard format? Jan 16 12:26:54 mickey|gprs: Will I be able to buy 2 and an external charger? Jan 16 12:29:58 so the moko's screen occupies 47% x 69% of the front panel's rectangular size Jan 16 12:30:12 mickey|gprs: being able to decode fullscreen full res h264 video ;) Jan 16 12:31:11 the iPhone uses 64% x 81% of the front panel's rectangular size Jan 16 12:32:18 the screen and the device-layout is not so bad. I think I posted this link the other day: http://img206.imageshack.us/my.php?image=p900vsneo1973to0.png Jan 16 12:32:51 the p900 has much more of its area covered by the screen Jan 16 12:32:55 which is a good thing to m Jan 16 12:32:56 e Jan 16 12:32:58 Sencer, actually someone pasted some similar pic with only the leftmost green-red-neo part Jan 16 12:33:16 accu is some special FIC accu. an external charger is not planned at this point of time. Jan 16 12:33:24 for future versions i heard they will consider a "standard" accu, Nokia or MOTO compatible or something Jan 16 12:33:32 something where there is a 3rd party industry Jan 16 12:33:40 * mickey|gprs points to s3c2410 and yawns Jan 16 12:33:56 * buz still cant believe the hole Jan 16 12:34:16 does anybody know about the weight? Jan 16 12:34:32 meyerm, maybe you could add a picture of iPhone and neo on the wiki such that they can be compared size-wise ?-) Jan 16 12:34:40 without the hole, the thing would easily be smaller than a p900 Jan 16 12:34:59 mickey|gprs: oook, then I hope that the accu will last long enough to be online for some worktime on the servers ;) Jan 16 12:35:20 i wonder if the silver edge could be replaced with rubber (think first gen archos player) Jan 16 12:35:31 that might make it much more resilient aginst dropping Jan 16 12:35:55 buz, there are nice howtos online also how to rubberize things Jan 16 12:35:56 meyerm: this i hope, too Jan 16 12:36:15 i just siliconized my ipod shuffle with a 0.7EUR skin Jan 16 12:36:22 buz, you can buy some spray that puts a thiny rubbery cover on top Jan 16 12:36:28 yeah Jan 16 12:36:30 buz, ok nice Jan 16 12:36:34 i'm gonna spray next to a display Jan 16 12:36:35 sure ;) Jan 16 12:37:06 otoh the rubbery thing was considered very unhealthy to inhale so dunno about keeping it in your hand then Jan 16 12:37:18 maybe it's unhealthy only in gas form, but still Jan 16 12:37:23 better get a readily made skin Jan 16 12:37:40 that can be removed and replaced easily, too Jan 16 12:37:44 http://www.homaxproducts.com/products/other/03/index.html Jan 16 12:37:54 i just wonder if it would hinder heat disspation Jan 16 12:38:35 ok that was not what I was looking for Jan 16 12:38:52 a chinese company sells spray on condoms Jan 16 12:38:54 that might work ;) Jan 16 12:39:04 but there was some article on things for mouses, game controllers etc Jan 16 12:39:11 buz lol Jan 16 12:39:54 buz, I bet their FAQ has "Q: How to pee? A: The company has not yet answered this question" Jan 16 12:40:16 not sure if its even rubber or some sort of chemical weirdness Jan 16 12:40:28 i know there is contraceptive foam Jan 16 12:42:39 ok I guess we can drop this discussion branch now :) Jan 16 12:43:34 foam coat the neo Jan 16 12:43:39 makes indestructible Jan 16 12:43:42 and FUGLY Jan 16 12:43:45 But I must admit that a rubber"frame" would be really nice. Now make it waterproof and I can take it with me on my canoe ;-) Jan 16 12:43:55 Well, perhaps v3 *g* Jan 16 12:44:15 meyerm: friend of mine thought his water proof sailing bag was perfect for his 1m old k800 Jan 16 12:44:31 well turns out it's mostly stopping water getting OUT of that bag ;) Jan 16 12:45:02 buz: hmm, that's not good ;) Jan 16 12:45:59 buz, :D Jan 16 12:46:13 nice Jan 16 12:46:18 mornin' everyone Jan 16 12:46:34 * xkr47 serves tea & bread to noidd Jan 16 12:49:04 the ericsson 310 were really well done outdoor-phones, worked under water, too. Jan 16 12:51:13 the neo probably wouldnt Jan 16 12:51:21 i dont see how a touchscreen would work underwater very well Jan 16 12:51:22 http://www.dagbo.de/mobilejoe/pictures/Bier.JPG Jan 16 12:51:37 we used to do that a lot Jan 16 12:51:47 just have to be careful to turn off the vibration... Jan 16 12:51:59 waste of beer Jan 16 12:52:33 * xkr47 wonders how readable the screen is when the backlight is off Jan 16 12:52:55 is it transreflective (i sure hope so) Jan 16 12:53:00 I was thinking, maybe X could change the colors in "backlight off" mode so it would be more readable Jan 16 12:53:01 if not, not very readable Jan 16 12:53:23 so you could see what the time is etc Jan 16 12:53:29 is it using X, or framebuffer? Jan 16 12:53:36 X Jan 16 12:53:42 on FB Jan 16 12:53:54 buz, will one be able to access the framebuffer in X ? Jan 16 12:53:55 X via kdrive on FB i believe Jan 16 12:54:00 no idea Jan 16 12:54:15 that would allow one to write graphics-intensive fullscreen apps Jan 16 12:54:31 X allows that as well Jan 16 12:54:35 as does SDL Jan 16 12:54:42 well yeah Jan 16 12:54:56 just thought it would use less cpu if you really needed it Jan 16 12:54:58 typically you can just dump raw data to /dev/fb0 Jan 16 12:55:11 ask the opie people what insisting on framebuffer access bought them Jan 16 12:55:29 koen: What do you mean? That sounds interesting :) Jan 16 12:55:34 at least I was memory mapping the /dev/fb0 on a friend's iPaq linux with X Jan 16 12:55:36 * Stephmw gets the popcorn Jan 16 12:55:38 and it worked fine Jan 16 12:55:55 http://www.sony.net/Products/SC-HP/cx_news/vol38/acx526.html could be perfect for neo2 ;) Jan 16 12:55:58 * xkr47 eats cheesy rice cakes Jan 16 12:56:04 xkr47: not every device has a memory mapped framebuffer Jan 16 12:56:13 mm Jan 16 12:56:34 I guess moko is using standard memory for display since the controller is embedded in the cpu Jan 16 12:56:40 but I don't know.. :) Jan 16 12:58:33 * buz drools over the sony display Jan 16 12:58:42 actually the one in N800 might be neater even Jan 16 13:01:23 buz, I don't think the sony display is water nor drool resistant either :) Jan 16 13:02:17 mhh the one in my p900 is reasonably resistant so far Jan 16 13:02:21 maybe not waterproof Jan 16 13:02:25 but certainly somewhat rainproof Jan 16 13:11:22 the nicest display I've ever seen in my life was the Zaurus c750 Jan 16 13:11:32 takes your breath away Jan 16 13:15:13 the one on the hx4700 is better Jan 16 13:15:20 transflective Jan 16 13:15:45 you will love the Neo1973's then Jan 16 13:16:39 what is transflective? Jan 16 13:16:46 did I miss the announcement with my inevitable sleep schedule? Jan 16 13:16:46 reflects sunlight Jan 16 13:16:51 i.e. gets easier to see in daylight Jan 16 13:17:07 not seen the hx4700 Jan 16 13:17:11 buz: ah, but with light transmission Jan 16 13:18:01 mickey|gprs: compare neo screen to tosa one Jan 16 13:18:06 specular screens are clearly the worst, you see them often in notebooks nowadays ... i think they are only powerful when it comes to painting one's face Jan 16 13:18:10 mickey|gprs: which one is better? Jan 16 13:18:29 what is tosa Jan 16 13:18:37 ~tosa Jan 16 13:18:48 well, tosa is the Sharp SL-6000 PDA, or a dog (see http://www.dogbreedinfo.com/tosa.htm) Jan 16 13:19:01 buz: tosa has best screen in zaurus line Jan 16 13:19:09 never seen a zaurus Jan 16 13:19:50 haha Jan 16 13:19:55 apt, botsnack Jan 16 13:19:56 aw, gee, noidd Jan 16 13:20:09 buz: the clamshell models were breathtaking Jan 16 13:20:21 buz: I have 4 models at home Jan 16 13:20:23 it got me my last job Jan 16 13:20:36 mickey|gprs: so which one is better? Jan 16 13:21:00 "The last 2 years I developed some network management software for company X" Jan 16 13:21:07 "Ok, tell me about it" Jan 16 13:21:29 "how about I show you?" Jan 16 13:21:30 "I'll show you" - (whip out cl750) - "There ya go, I ported it to my pda" Jan 16 13:21:40 * Stephmw pats noidd Jan 16 13:21:40 exactly Stephmw :-0 Jan 16 13:21:54 noidd: I can't quite place my finger on it... Muse or RSoft? Jan 16 13:22:18 in:control Jan 16 13:22:19 hrw|work: i will take a picture once my openmoko-devel-image runs on the tosa Jan 16 13:22:40 noidd: man, I've lost track of that market Jan 16 13:22:43 I workd with RSoft at BA / Siemens for a while Jan 16 13:22:59 it wasn't a large player Jan 16 13:23:09 mickey|gprs: cant just tell? Jan 16 13:23:10 what it did was network device version control Jan 16 13:23:42 noidd: there was so much potential in the industry back then Jan 16 13:23:57 ie - tftp or otherwise snag configurations and do diffs, change collation, and only allow access to installation engineers when they had tickets open. Jan 16 13:24:04 people gone mad on the list? Jan 16 13:24:07 Yeah, and it was completely wasted too. Jan 16 13:24:14 noidd: agreed Jan 16 13:24:19 Kaloz: more so than usual? Jan 16 13:24:20 not to mention tha tmos tof the mails are simply bs.. :p Jan 16 13:24:24 Stephmw: yeah Jan 16 13:24:28 * Stephmw peeks Jan 16 13:24:35 The way that RSoft's product was built is still orders of magnitude ahead of anything else. Jan 16 13:24:46 mhh no screaming for a fpga Jan 16 13:24:49 thats well within reason Jan 16 13:24:51 noidd: So's the size of the core files Jan 16 13:24:56 haha Jan 16 13:25:26 Yeah, but at least if one of your modules dumped core - you still had another 6 instances running over your network Jan 16 13:25:29 so no loss of service. Jan 16 13:25:45 tibco ftw Jan 16 13:25:45 for anyone not following this discussion... the core files in question tended to be 2gb Jan 16 13:26:07 noidd: shame it was (ab)used for transporting the whole 800mb topo from the db Jan 16 13:26:07 and thats after being limited by the shell :-) Jan 16 13:26:28 * Stephmw fondly remembers the bugs Jan 16 13:26:51 Where'd you work with RSoft? It's kinda rare to meet people who've used it. Jan 16 13:27:12 I worked *in* RSoft, on their Java config application Jan 16 13:27:13 mickey|gprs ok Jan 16 13:27:53 I came in on the V3 product, V2 was errr... buggy? Jan 16 13:27:57 in London? Jan 16 13:28:00 Yup Jan 16 13:28:11 man, we may have met previously Jan 16 13:28:19 I spent a few days in with the pirhanas Jan 16 13:28:34 were they still feeding them live fish back then? Jan 16 13:28:46 I don't know, I was never in the office when they did Jan 16 13:28:55 it just made me want to keep pirhanas too Jan 16 13:29:00 then you mised it too... someone called the RSPCA on them :) Jan 16 13:29:09 that's funny as hell Jan 16 13:29:24 the purple+green walls got to me though Jan 16 13:29:33 * Stephmw twitches Jan 16 13:30:04 I spent a few days with the guy who wrote the Perl libraries Jan 16 13:30:34 Before he emmigrated to the US to take a job with "some auction site" Jan 16 13:30:48 may have been ebay for all I know - it was about the right timeframe Jan 16 13:30:54 probably Jan 16 13:31:03 it was a time of people jumping as far as possible Jan 16 13:31:18 I still loved the product Jan 16 13:31:23 even V2 Jan 16 13:31:34 and when HP bought it and destroyed it I was pretty pissed of Jan 16 13:31:38 there is no comparison. Jan 16 13:31:52 actually, HP only licensed it Jan 16 13:32:04 RSoft then dropped it for V3 Jan 16 13:32:49 leaveing HP in the shit? Jan 16 13:32:49 damn, meeting, back in a few hours Jan 16 13:32:53 (aye) Jan 16 13:32:55 so what happened to RSoft the company ? Jan 16 13:33:26 later Jan 16 13:57:02 from mailing list: "Hey, what is the uptime of your Neo?" hmm.. I wonder what records will be ... Jan 16 13:57:23 I guess some Neo using in some remote control or similar situation Jan 16 13:57:52 aloril: '0', it's not out yet Jan 16 14:02:46 does the phone work with usb power alone ? Jan 16 14:02:50 (no battery) Jan 16 14:04:00 I would think at least if you leave usb power connected it would charge as needed? Jan 16 14:04:35 + powered usb hub and then connect to item you want to monitor/control remotely -> huge uptime possible I guess Jan 16 14:05:30 noidd: bah, double-booked the room Jan 16 14:05:47 noidd: RSoft got bought out by Muse which got bought out by IBM Jan 16 14:06:02 noidd: the RSoft software has pretty much died Jan 16 14:07:35 :O Jan 16 14:07:42 what is/was it ? Jan 16 14:07:44 * Stephmw goes into the meeting again Jan 16 14:31:01 lspci Jan 16 15:01:54 RSoft was a network management product which was way ahead of its time. Jan 16 15:21:41 Sean was in Berlin? So when does his plane land in Taipeh? Jan 16 15:22:09 * Laibsch suspects that there is a good chance of news being made public around that time. ;-) Jan 16 15:22:24 Me too.. :) Jan 16 15:23:07 ooh, whtever will it be Jan 16 15:23:23 'the neo1973 has been delayed until august' Jan 16 15:23:44 noidd: when I was at RSoft, they'd just about hit 400 people... when I took voluntary redundancy 1.5yr later, there were 50 left Jan 16 15:24:42 due to burnout or mutual agreements ?-) Jan 16 15:31:19 I decided to jump before the redundancy pay hit $0 Jan 16 15:32:47 sensible chap :-) Jan 16 15:33:29 I wonder if Sean hand delivered serial# 00000000? to mickey ;-) Jan 16 15:37:17 :) Jan 16 15:37:38 "openmoko for collectors - serials 000000-000009 for sale" Jan 16 15:39:10 can anyone here give me a rough idea of what typical redundancy would be for a US tech job Jan 16 15:39:19 for 2 years of service Jan 16 15:39:43 redundancy? Jan 16 15:39:48 I'm in a right to work state so anything above $1 is acceptable ;-P Jan 16 15:45:09 In the US, companies will drop you for free. They don't charge you anything. Jan 16 15:45:19 lol Jan 16 15:46:34 * noidd sniffs Jan 16 15:46:42 hmm, I smell chili Jan 16 15:46:44 bbiab Jan 16 15:46:46 lunch! Jan 16 15:47:28 skome: aye, one of my biggest reason for not working in the US Jan 16 15:50:17 I hear you. One day we might become civilized (and efficient/effective) again. Maybe. Or not. Jan 16 15:50:43 one day we'll move to the moon Jan 16 15:51:58 skome: 'civilized' is a quaint notion these days... it's just whatever is most prevalent. Once the US has a majority stake in the world, through 'hostile' takeovers, standards will drop sufficiently to include it as a civilised nation ;) Jan 16 15:53:01 heh. Or maybe, >sob< Jan 16 16:04:06 Stephmw: the us is not gonna buy the world anytime soon Jan 16 16:04:19 unless the chinese pay for it, that is Jan 16 16:04:45 buz: hence 'hostile' takeover... it's working in the middle east, if a little slowly Jan 16 16:05:15 you must have a SNAFU like definition of working Jan 16 16:06:08 well... diverting attention from its internal problems, exclusive access to the overtaken nation's resources, puppet government, what am I missing? Jan 16 16:07:41 ... costs higher than benefits ... Jan 16 16:09:08 I'd say the first option is the most important Jan 16 16:09:14 short-term benefit Jan 16 16:09:18 possibly Jan 16 16:09:31 tho "think of the children" would have been far cheaper approach Jan 16 16:09:58 but that's no good - it's gotta be expensive Jan 16 16:10:08 how else can you funnel money into the coffers of the arms manufacturers? Jan 16 16:10:32 call it war on $something and you get huge amounts of cash Jan 16 16:11:22 we're way offtopic.... Jan 16 16:15:36 New peak: 158 nicks Jan 16 16:16:06 buz: yesh, my fault Jan 16 16:16:12 buz: let's talk gadgets Jan 16 16:16:23 oh rgiht Jan 16 16:16:31 * buz curses shuffle 2 doc Jan 16 16:16:39 a shuffle with a silicone skin will no longer fit it Jan 16 16:16:44 I'm thinking of getting an epson p-2000 Jan 16 16:16:44 so i cant recharge it Jan 16 16:16:45 crap Jan 16 16:17:09 * koen googles epson p-2000 Jan 16 16:17:58 koen: photobank, personal media player... etc Jan 16 16:18:11 koen: 40gb built-in, hackable to 100gb Jan 16 16:18:19 aside from the dismal sound quality, the shuffle is perfect Jan 16 16:19:34 Stephmw: I was going to show you the photobank from FIC, also linuxbase, but it's gone from their website Jan 16 16:19:53 koen: shame, do you remember the name? Jan 16 16:20:13 nope, sorry Jan 16 16:20:30 it was au1200 based, so you can watch movies as well Jan 16 16:20:40 neat Jan 16 16:20:58 found the press release for that gadget Jan 16 16:21:15 http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html << that one? :> Jan 16 16:21:34 Vael: we've gone offtopic on another gadget ;) Jan 16 16:21:39 :o Jan 16 16:21:48 Teh offtopicz? Jan 16 16:21:57 Stephmw: I asked sean if they were going to open up that as well, but haven't heard back Jan 16 16:23:01 koen: hmm Jan 16 16:23:56 koen: ah, there we are... I rated it lower because of the lack of a CF slot Jan 16 16:24:21 ah, hadn't noticed that Jan 16 16:24:58 i thought that ipod shuffle had a great audio quality ... Jan 16 16:25:36 "APPLE HAS has got all litigious about a group of Aussies who have developed a so-called iPhone looking interface for their Windows Mobile telephonic apparatus." Jan 16 16:26:03 url ?-) Jan 16 16:26:14 http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=36972 Jan 16 16:26:14 koen: and you're right, it's completely gone from their site Jan 16 16:27:12 koen: heard any chat about a v2 of the moko using the s2c2440 ? Jan 16 16:27:42 prpplague: no, but I think they go for 2460 or something Jan 16 16:28:00 ahh Jan 16 16:28:14 something with multimedia gadget I suspect Jan 16 16:31:11 quants, hehe Jan 16 16:31:59 prpplague: I think v1 is meant to show off the software and v2 (or v3) will be showing off more hardware Jan 16 16:32:33 prpplague, here's some comparision of s3c2410 and s3c2460 if you're interested.. http://www.gp32x.com/board/lofiversion/index.php/t32544.html Jan 16 16:32:46 and I hope that v2/v3 will be more user/devel friendly Jan 16 16:33:08 prpplague, not suggesting anything whether it will be used (I don't have a clue =) Jan 16 16:34:06 hrw|work: v2 software will be completely written in python Jan 16 16:34:19 hrw|work: and therefore it will have 1gb of ram Jan 16 16:34:42 ?-) Jan 16 16:35:06 koen, are you kidding or serious ?-) Jan 16 16:35:09 xkr47: hehe, yea, i actually have a s3c2460 eval Jan 16 16:35:22 prpplague, eval board ? Jan 16 16:35:39 prpplague: does gcc/binutils support its VFP already? Jan 16 16:35:42 xkr47: eval chips, we have protoboards on the way, should be heard next week Jan 16 16:36:05 hrw|work: not sure, just started looking at the 2440 and 2460 Jan 16 16:36:06 hrw|work: isn't every vfp wired up the same? Jan 16 16:36:11 prpplague, ok I guess you know the stuff already then :) Jan 16 16:37:22 the 2460 seems to be kinda wasted without a good cam Jan 16 16:37:46 python? nothing less than fortress will do it Jan 16 16:38:10 xkr47: we are probably going with the 2440 though, the 2460 has too high a bga ball count, drives up the costs Jan 16 16:38:49 koen: do not know - I have sa1100 and pxa only Jan 16 16:38:49 * xkr47 is not that well informed.. bga ball count ?-) Jan 16 16:39:05 Sencer, :D Jan 16 16:39:13 xkr47: number of pins on the chip Jan 16 16:39:20 right Jan 16 16:39:42 bga is some packaging I guess.. Jan 16 16:39:43 xkr47: the 2460 has 416 and the 2440 just has 289 Jan 16 16:39:50 xkr47: yea Jan 16 16:39:58 * xkr47 guesses ball grid array Jan 16 16:40:17 hrw|work: gcc only take a -mfpu=vfp option, so it is supported Jan 16 16:41:27 hrw|work: greetings btw, making some progress on the 88w8385 stuff Jan 16 16:42:21 prpplague: cool. I wish I would have time for it.. Jan 16 16:42:44 prpplague: don't forget to put it in svn :) Jan 16 16:43:03 koen: yea, still xperimental at the momment Jan 16 16:43:18 koen: but yea, as soon as i finish up some testing, i'll get it checked in Jan 16 16:43:31 main problem right now is the question of the firmware Jan 16 16:47:57 meyerm, btw in a forum mail, koen said 1973 has 2.0 + EDR so maybe that should be in the wiki also :) Jan 16 16:50:53 xkr47: OK, cool Jan 16 16:51:18 forum? Jan 16 16:51:20 xkr47: is online (BTW: that's a wiki ;-) ) Jan 16 16:51:25 you mean mailinglist Jan 16 16:51:29 fora are evil Jan 16 16:52:22 theres a wiki? Jan 16 16:52:39 unofficial only Jan 16 16:52:43 koen, yeah sorry Jan 16 16:52:45 parag0n: xkr47 meant http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/iPhone Jan 16 16:52:47 koen, it was your mail :) Jan 16 16:53:05 any news on this 'big announcement' yet? Jan 16 16:53:08 ~summon Sean to make an announcement Jan 16 16:53:14 xkr47: yes, but not on a forum Jan 16 16:53:15 apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing Sean to make an announcement's coordinates Jan 16 16:53:23 parag0n, we're silently waiting for the topic to magically update ;) Jan 16 16:53:38 koen, I apologize for my bad wording :) Jan 16 16:56:59 what announcement Jan 16 16:57:15 buz: that one which we are waiting for Jan 16 16:57:25 i know we are waiting Jan 16 16:57:28 just not for what Jan 16 16:57:36 but i guess thats the point right Jan 16 16:58:28 lets hope ms wont take down sean's plane Jan 16 17:04:27 * greentux hopes that nobody makes jokes with "aaaahhh an announcement... aeh sorry" ;) Jan 16 17:09:14 hi Tom Jan 16 17:11:22 I just saw an email from sean Jan 16 17:11:28 so he must have landed :-P Jan 16 17:11:59 hi ho Jan 16 17:12:13 just one question, what will it cost? Jan 16 17:12:43 350USD Jan 16 17:12:51 without any wifi? Jan 16 17:13:06 will there be a version with wifi? Jan 16 17:13:25 no Jan 16 17:13:29 no wifi in v1 Jan 16 17:13:34 but later? Jan 16 17:13:42 how can it be purchased? Jan 16 17:14:30 what does direct sale mean ? Jan 16 17:15:01 mbuf: probably means "go to vendors website and order directly from there" Jan 16 17:15:10 http://www.fic.com.tw/ Jan 16 17:18:56 lightyear, that's four questions already :) Jan 16 17:19:37 anyone know if there's an easy way to just import contacts? I need to get my Palm contct info in, was hoping I could just write a db file and shove it on a SD card Jan 16 17:24:14 cu Jan 16 17:28:59 rboehme: syncml Jan 16 18:01:12 .who Jan 16 18:01:18 <-- FAIL Jan 16 18:05:22 lamby, you ever been to any other universities? Jan 16 18:05:51 to study? no. to visit? yes. Jan 16 18:06:00 nvm then Jan 16 18:06:17 i once new a lamby at aberystwyth uni Jan 16 18:13:25 Stephmw: ten times the user of #qtopia now... Jan 16 18:13:40 greentux: hehe :) Jan 16 18:14:06 greentux: should quieten down a little after a release - wonder how many people in here aren't just idling Jan 16 18:15:38 which release? Jan 16 18:17:05 someone should update the early access in the topic from feb->march Jan 16 18:17:10 man, I remember aber Jan 16 18:17:22 and that fucking hill! Jan 16 18:17:27 unbelievable. Jan 16 18:17:35 Yes. Jan 16 18:17:53 I think it was impossible to ever get back to the dorms drunk since the walk from the bar up to the dorms was so steep you'd have metabolized all the alcohol Jan 16 18:18:18 noidd, Aber is known for 2 things, its Really large pub / population ratio, and its STUPIDLY LARGE HILLS Jan 16 18:18:31 haha Jan 16 18:18:49 I spent 4 days in the maze before i have up ;-P Jan 16 18:18:57 i dont drink, so when everyone else is powering their way up the hill completely wasted, i'm half dead about 1/4 of the way up Jan 16 18:20:34 Stephmw: will see if there come a announcment an #qtopia too. was promised. Jan 16 18:24:17 don't do what a friend of mine did there Jan 16 18:24:25 he spilled his beer in the union Jan 16 18:24:42 then mopped it up using the local Welsh language newspaper Jan 16 18:24:57 they chased him out of the bar, pitchforks and everything Jan 16 18:25:16 Psi: why? Jan 16 18:25:34 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/15/open_phone/ Jan 16 18:25:44 "Sean Moss-Pultz, the project's architect, expects the first samples of OpenMoko hardware to ship in March 2007" Jan 16 18:27:09 maybe april. or june.. Jan 16 18:28:32 he never said march 2007, just march! Jan 16 18:28:42 it could be 2021 for all we know ;) Jan 16 18:28:45 hehe Jan 16 18:28:58 sounds like "duke nukem forever"......when its done ^^ Jan 16 18:30:17 I hope this won't turn out to be another Open Graphics Project :( Jan 16 18:30:58 Sean Moss-Pultz, the project's architect, expects the first samples of OpenMoko hardware to ship in March 2007. The SDK should be released at the same time, though you can sign up for early access here. Jan 16 18:31:04 from http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/01/15/open_phone/ Jan 16 18:31:09 march? Jan 16 18:31:15 yes Jan 16 18:31:56 They (still, OGP) were promising to release their card july 2005, I think. They're not nearly done. Jan 16 18:32:48 well apple wont be delivering a phone until July Jan 16 18:33:07 but the neo1973 is being built by a real company, who actuelly sell phones, and therefore is much more likely to happen in a sensible timeframe Jan 16 18:33:28 ozamosi: by "their card", do you mean a non-developer one? otherwise they have released a card already. Jan 16 18:33:49 A real phone with a real OS Jan 16 18:34:04 not some half baked OSX Jan 16 18:34:31 lamby: I believe they promised a consumer card in july 2005 Jan 16 18:35:13 ozamosi: schtop, this open-source graphics card izzn't ready yhet Jan 16 18:36:14 march ? damn im on the channel for 2 days and the phone has been delayed by 2 month ! :) im afraid to stay a day longer :D Jan 16 18:37:30 pls leave the channel :) Jan 16 18:37:40 rofl Jan 16 18:40:55 http://radar.oreilly.com/archives/2007/01/joost_is_the_iphone_of_tv.html Jan 16 18:41:18 more like the openmoko of TV Jan 16 18:42:02 from yesterdays log: Jan 16 18:42:04 22:35 < Melkman> hmm, just read on a dutch website that the neo will be released in march... http://tweakers.net/nieuws/45921/Eerste-samples-open-Linux-telefoon Jan 16 18:42:12 -in-maart-verwacht.html Jan 16 18:42:14 22:36 < Stephmw> Melkman: they probably got that from TheRegister... and *they* Jan 16 18:42:19 plucked it from some random arse walking by Jan 16 18:42:34 -- end quote Jan 16 18:42:39 * Stephmw hears his name Jan 16 18:43:11 kabturek: the topic is the most accurate information you'll get other than the openmoko website Jan 16 18:43:22 kabturek: the topic is the most accurate information you'll get other than the openmoko website Jan 16 18:43:27 ^^ repeat for Sencer Jan 16 18:43:45 kabturek: (and of course openmoko devs) Jan 16 18:44:01 Stephmw, okok ;) i was joking :) ive been yesterday and heard what you said :) Jan 16 18:44:05 did my quote go through? Jan 16 18:44:09 yup Jan 16 18:44:15 kabturek: no worries :) Jan 16 18:44:22 I actually quoted your response from yesterday as well, Stephmw Jan 16 18:44:33 * Stephmw nods Jan 16 18:44:41 saw the -- end quote Jan 16 18:45:07 ah, ok, irssi is acting up here Jan 16 18:55:50 im wondering how much power an usb wifi stick draws... Jan 16 18:56:23 1.21 jigawatts Jan 16 18:56:31 oh, wait, na, thats something else :P Jan 16 18:56:37 400mA is possible Jan 16 18:57:12 500mA is the max, no? Jan 16 18:57:14 kabturek: ones without an ldo usually draw up to around 400mA Jan 16 18:57:46 Stephmw: 500mA is the max rating for usb slave device powered, iirc Jan 16 18:57:51 anyone know how big the 1973's screen is compared to a Treo (600) ? Jan 16 18:58:00 Stephmw: correct Jan 16 18:58:10 kabturek: if you get one with an ldo you usually see between 150mA and 275mA Jan 16 18:58:21 not that the max matters, since the neo cant power any usb devices Jan 16 18:58:25 most of the RT73 dongles uses an ldo Jan 16 18:58:37 Psi: ... for long Jan 16 18:58:46 not at all Jan 16 18:58:50 hack the case, get some cables.. Jan 16 18:59:00 hehe Jan 16 18:59:01 its no longer THE neo then Jan 16 18:59:07 doesn't mean you couldn't inject the power Jan 16 18:59:08 id imagine that will kill the battery life Jan 16 18:59:10 prpplague, thx... you know what im thinkin g ? a little powered wifi addon ;) Jan 16 18:59:18 kabturek: yea Jan 16 18:59:34 Psi: of course :) Jan 16 18:59:35 you could do it as a sleeve Jan 16 18:59:47 where is the usb port located anyway Jan 16 19:00:03 * koen wonders if the lunchbox will have a powered hub Jan 16 19:00:04 kabturek: if you are brave, you could even remove the 5v->3.3v regulator and just provide 3.3v Jan 16 19:00:35 kabturek: that would cut the power consumtion dramatically Jan 16 19:01:29 true Jan 16 19:02:34 prpplague, good idea ... Jan 16 19:02:54 i just cant wait for it to get my hands on and start messing with it ;) Jan 16 19:03:27 * xkr47 looks up ldo Jan 16 19:03:36 remove the actual usb connector from the device, remove the regulator, then add the connection to the handheld, without the 5v connection, take 3 AA high mAh batteries and a small ldo, you are good to go Jan 16 19:03:39 any announcenment yet? Jan 16 19:03:54 koen: no V12 :( Jan 16 19:04:03 * so_solid_moo can't see how neo will succeed without a v12 :( Jan 16 19:04:21 * buz is content that a v8 is good enough Jan 16 19:05:03 only with tiptronic Jan 16 19:07:04 prpplague, how does it eat less current with a ldo ? Jan 16 19:07:27 prpplague, or is the current dependent on supply voltage ? Jan 16 19:07:49 prpplague, one would think the sending effect would vary accordingly then also Jan 16 19:08:16 xkr47: taking 5v and regulating it down to 3.3v, that 1.7v's has to go somewhere Jan 16 19:08:36 xkr47: usually wasted Jan 16 19:08:37 yes.. but Jan 16 19:08:37 xkr47: i.e. as heat Jan 16 19:08:52 I understood the wlan was the discussion.. and that wlans with a ldo draw less current (??) Jan 16 19:09:09 maybe I got it wrong :P Jan 16 19:09:14 xkr47: ldo's are more efficient in the conversion process Jan 16 19:09:28 ah.. right Jan 16 19:09:41 so you mean the wlans typically take something like ~3V Jan 16 19:09:59 and non-ldo solutions use more power ? Jan 16 19:10:08 xkr47: usb output is 5v, just about every wireless chip available currently runs at 3.3v Jan 16 19:10:30 so.. does the moko use 5V internally or do you know ? Jan 16 19:10:49 * xkr47 forgot to read the voltage stuff when studying the s3c2410 user's guide :) Jan 16 19:10:56 xkr47: the core for the s3c2410 uses both 1.8v and 3.3v Jan 16 19:11:10 and the battery.. ? Jan 16 19:11:46 xkr47: so the battery is probably something like either a 3.7v or 5.2v Jan 16 19:12:33 well.. I guess if one wanted wlan through something external and wouldn't mind some soldering, it would make sense to supply ~3V from some batteries and remove the ldo altogether Jan 16 19:12:59 xkr47: has to be regulated, you can't just jack some batteries in Jan 16 19:13:00 buffering? Jan 16 19:13:11 yeah - regulators and stuff - buffering for the 5v usb Jan 16 19:13:29 also i think pretty much everything uses 3.3v signaling anyhow - someone check :) Jan 16 19:13:29 prpplague, oh so they are sensitive to it being stable and close to 3.3 Jan 16 19:13:32 dont forget that li-po batterys have electronics inside to monitor usage, you cant just draw power from the +- pins Jan 16 19:13:44 xkr47: hehe yea Jan 16 19:14:07 psi :) Jan 16 19:14:08 xkr47: can't vary more than around +-3% Jan 16 19:14:23 ok.. kindof like computer equipment in general then Jan 16 19:14:34 * xkr47 is from the old days with TTL and cmos Jan 16 19:14:40 xkr47: thats why i said, probably better to make a sled with 3 AA batteries Jan 16 19:14:47 cmos takes 3-15V, it doesn't mind that much :) Jan 16 19:14:55 * PirateHead can't wait for february. =D Jan 16 19:14:56 prpplague, mm Jan 16 19:15:06 PirateHead, or march, who knows :P Jan 16 19:15:11 Though who knows, it might end up being march Jan 16 19:15:13 Beat me to it =D Jan 16 19:15:41 not that you would really want to, but you probably could rip all the electronics/screen etc.. out of the neo and mount it all in the shell of a much larger phone Jan 16 19:15:55 prpplague, or then two 7660 and one AA :) Jan 16 19:16:30 xkr47: well, mosts digital cirtuits these days are either 1.8 or 3.3 based, 5v based is going the way of the dodo Jan 16 19:16:46 mm Jan 16 19:16:57 Psi: hehe, actually thats what i'd like to do Jan 16 19:17:10 Psi: i have a IP rated case i'd love to test it in Jan 16 19:17:11 it would be great for adding things Jan 16 19:17:11 What's wrong with the Neo's size? Jan 16 19:17:18 Psi, :D Jan 16 19:17:23 but you would no longer have what looked like a neo Jan 16 19:17:36 I mean, what do you want to put in there that wouldn't fit. Jan 16 19:17:46 Psi, maybe you can leave the front part and build something yourself :) Jan 16 19:17:48 Should have been a ? Jan 16 19:18:06 PirateHead, like a wlan thing :) Jan 16 19:18:17 PirateHead: barcode scanner, rfid reader Jan 16 19:18:26 when will they start selling separate camera modules.. Jan 16 19:18:32 plastic explosives, for self destuct :P Jan 16 19:18:37 Psi, :D Jan 16 19:18:44 Heh, you guys are nuts. I wouldn't cut up the phone, I'd just use a serial connection. Jan 16 19:19:06 Or hell, a bluetooth connection... but that could get expensive. Jan 16 19:19:14 PirateHead, we're all nuts buddy, it's just a matter of how nuts you are.. Jan 16 19:19:17 :) Jan 16 19:19:27 PirateHead: not really talking about "cutting" Jan 16 19:19:41 PirateHead, with a bigger case you could probably wire up a camera to the micro :) Jan 16 19:19:48 PirateHead, I'll probably get a bluetooth keyboard if there is such a thing Jan 16 19:19:55 phones with cameras suck Jan 16 19:20:01 or then a bluetooth in the pc and use that keyboard Jan 16 19:20:05 PirateHead, :) Jan 16 19:20:06 extra weight, less space for nicer dongles Jan 16 19:20:10 Psi: the s3c2410 doesn't have a camera interface Jan 16 19:20:12 I'm glad to buy a phone without one Jan 16 19:20:36 me too Jan 16 19:20:41 xkr47: a bluetooth keyboard why? I've heard about other people doing the same, but I don't understand the desire. Jan 16 19:21:02 kxr47: if I have a mobile device, I don't see why I would want to bring a much-less-mobile keyboard around with me Jan 16 19:21:12 dunno, maybe I got the sick idea of ircing with it somewhere outdoors :D Jan 16 19:21:44 there's always this thing: http://freedominput.com/mainsite/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=12&Itemid=30 Jan 16 19:21:51 so, it basically turns into a tiny little monitor Jan 16 19:21:56 maybe I'm just a little bit hesitant whether my big fingers will be usable for typing on the moko Jan 16 19:21:57 laser kbd mod!, hehe Jan 16 19:21:58 where you can see like 3 lines of text at a time Jan 16 19:22:00 simple, cheap, HID Jan 16 19:22:35 60 pounds is about 90 euros i think Jan 16 19:22:48 thedaniel, nice Jan 16 19:22:56 koen: did i show you the M5900 when you were down? Jan 16 19:23:17 thedaniel, I still don't see why you want to turn a phone into basically a crippled laptop Jan 16 19:23:17 thedaniel, hehe, thats pretty nice Jan 16 19:23:35 I've used a bt keyboard with a nokia 770 occasionally, it's quite nice, and much more portable than a laptop Jan 16 19:23:47 not that I usually carry the keyboard Jan 16 19:24:16 * xkr47 could also consider a 123456789*0# bt keyboard Jan 16 19:24:19 :) Jan 16 19:24:23 heh Jan 16 19:24:43 If a GPS + bt widget can cost $70 Jan 16 19:24:46 i'd like a thumbboard i think Jan 16 19:24:56 I wonder how much a wifi + BT widget would cost and how big it would be Jan 16 19:24:57 superbik1: obviously, the nokia is pretty portable. Is it still highly portable when you have the keyboard with you? Jan 16 19:25:04 leventhal, ? Jan 16 19:25:14 it about doubles the side... both easily fit in my smallish fanny pack Jan 16 19:25:24 but too big for any normal shirt/pants pocket Jan 16 19:25:31 the n770 is 200 grams or so Jan 16 19:25:44 For me, there's three levels of portability. Jan 16 19:25:55 just cause i can type faster on a blackberry sized thumbboard with distinct buttons rather than a flat surface Jan 16 19:26:06 The worst is where I have to load all my computer equipment into the back of my car to move it. That's where desktops fit in. Jan 16 19:26:21 PirateHead, your forgetting underskin implant :P Jan 16 19:26:37 Better is where I can fit it all in my backpack. My laptop fits there. Jan 16 19:27:00 What I'm looking for with the neo is something that fits in the pocket of my cargo pants. Jan 16 19:27:19 the on screen is nice but if i know i'm going to do a lot of typing (like using ssh) i'd probably bring a thumbboard or foldable keyboard Jan 16 19:27:30 If it doesn't, and I still need to carry a bag of some sort (a la a USB/bluetooth keyboard), then it doesn't fit into that third level of portability. Jan 16 19:27:40 PirateHead: i have a toshiba libretto that i gutted and shoved a s3c2410 module in, works out well Jan 16 19:27:45 if the neo fits in one pocket a full bt keyboard would likely fit in the other lake Jan 16 19:28:06 prpplague: so you have s3c2410 powered laptop now? Jan 16 19:28:09 Hi. I noticed in several of the announcements that the one piece of proprietary software on the OpenMoko consists of a userspace "software GPS" implementation. I wanted to offer a suggestion as to how that could go away and get replaced with Free Software: GPL-GPS, . Jan 16 19:28:13 hrw: several Jan 16 19:28:28 hrw: lots of spare protoboards left over, so i have fun with them Jan 16 19:28:28 josh sounds good Jan 16 19:28:39 prpplague: :) Jan 16 19:28:43 GPL-GPS supplies a software GPS correlator, designed to run as the firmware of a consumer GPS device. A friend of mine did it as his Master's thesis project. Jan 16 19:28:49 prpplague: did you saw xbox360 laptop? Jan 16 19:28:54 JoshTriplett, there's been lots of discussion about that. I'm sure people will be looking into it. Jan 16 19:29:00 JoshTriplett: Do you know that your project is compatible with the GPS chip we have? Jan 16 19:29:04 josh but that is specific to the Zarlink GP4020 GPS Jan 16 19:29:04 JoshTriplett: there are few gpsd implementations already Jan 16 19:29:11 hrw: hehe, no not seen that one Jan 16 19:29:29 JoshTripplet, isn't that pretty specific software? What we need to replace is a driver here, not firmware. Jan 16 19:29:37 spikebik1: Not much of it. It just needs a bit of porting to run on a new chip. Jan 16 19:29:38 prpplague: done by guy which made atari 2600 portable and many other consoles, computers Jan 16 19:29:54 * JoshTriplett tries to follow all the responses. :) Jan 16 19:29:56 hrw: ahh yea, he does good work Jan 16 19:30:10 hrw: http://tinyurl.com/yl85t4 my current "upgrade" project Jan 16 19:30:15 PirateHead: "discussion about that": does "that" mean "the binary GPS" or "GPL-GPS"? Jan 16 19:30:20 PirateHead: I assume the former? Jan 16 19:30:26 The former. Jan 16 19:30:43 hey Jan 16 19:30:53 any update on what the openmoko hacker lunchbox is? Jan 16 19:31:04 cjb: I don't know, but as I understand it, GPL-GPS uses a good portable design where you can just port the hardware-specific portions and use all the rest unchanged. Jan 16 19:31:07 prpplague: i'm interested in your s3c laptop - do you have a writeup online anywhere? Jan 16 19:31:15 hrw: What exactly do you mean by "gpsd"? Jan 16 19:31:20 prpplague: kind of those 'education laptops' for kids? with JoshTriplett: gps daemon Jan 16 19:31:34 thedaniel: no, mainly because its using s3c2410 modules that aren't available to the public yet Jan 16 19:31:48 hrw: I mean, what function do you mean? Real GPS correlation, or just "grab a bitstream off of a driver and make it available"? Jan 16 19:32:06 hrw: yea 320x240 4096 color Jan 16 19:32:32 The openmoko uses a "software" gps where some of the actual crunching happens in a daemon. Jan 16 19:32:39 JoshTriplett: there's some of both of those. The important first step is getting a reliable bitstream. Jan 16 19:32:40 thedaniel: easy enough to do with the right module though Jan 16 19:32:42 JoshTriplett: basically it fetch info from gps unit and supply to apps via TCP port - allow to hide connection details Jan 16 19:32:45 not just decoding bits and writing NMEA Jan 16 19:32:49 PirateHead: Regarding "What we need to replace is a driver here, not firmware.", I read the statement that OpenMoko used a software GPS implementation that processed the GPS signals, and thus you need to do correlation and such in software. Jan 16 19:33:07 hrw: that one is one of the first ones available with a color lcd Jan 16 19:33:08 PirateHead: GPL-GPS supplies correlation algorithms, satellite tracking, and all the various features like that. Jan 16 19:33:24 prpplague: people really buy such stuff? Jan 16 19:33:26 hrw: most of the others are just 4-bit greyscale Jan 16 19:33:29 JoshTripplet: I can't speak for anybody else, but if it's under the GPL, I'll sure be looking into it. =D Jan 16 19:33:53 PirateHead: You mean a bitstream off the device, giving you the raw data to correlate? Jan 16 19:33:55 hrw: are you kidding? they sell like hot cakes Jan 16 19:34:01 prpplague: that's pretty cool. that sort of hack has been in the back of my mind for a while, but i've not had the initiative to research how to do it (not a big hardware hacker) Jan 16 19:34:26 hrw: Ah. I don't think openmoko needs that part, it already exists. I mean the driver below that. Jan 16 19:34:36 hrw: "that part" == gpsd. Jan 16 19:34:37 prpplague: I'm probably too much geek to find such thing useful ;D Jan 16 19:34:54 spikebik1: Right. I assumed so, I just wanted to make sure. And NMEA considered painful, anyway. :) Jan 16 19:35:04 hrw: yea, well after all, its for kids, i just buy them for the case and misc electronics Jan 16 19:35:15 PirateHead: Glad to hear that you find it interesting. :) Jan 16 19:36:21 prpplague: maybe in few years when I will have kids I will buy one and tell 'listen child: this laptop is for you and it was made by my friend so be nice and do some weird testing on it while having good fun' ;D Jan 16 19:36:28 PirateHead: I work with the person who wrote it. I'll /msg you their email address; perhaps you can give them some info on the specific GPS chip and what needs doing in software. Jan 16 19:36:51 what's the type of the unpowered usb connector? mini-usb a or b ? Jan 16 19:38:02 JoshTriplett: the problem is that there are TWO persons which know internal details Jan 16 19:38:11 from what I heard, this is a nice bt keyboard.. http://www.thinkoutside.com/products/xtbtue/stowawaybt_product.html Jan 16 19:38:14 JoshTriplett: and both are not available now Jan 16 19:38:42 the gps chip is known afaik Jan 16 19:39:11 xkr yeah I have that one Jan 16 19:39:13 not bad Jan 16 19:39:18 doesn't lay flat Jan 16 19:39:24 and wobbles as you type Jan 16 19:39:34 ? Jan 16 19:39:42 prpplague: I think you showed the m5900 Jan 16 19:39:46 wobbles = ? Jan 16 19:39:52 hrw: Ah. "not available" as in "not right this instant", or "not for the forseeable future"? Jan 16 19:39:54 you kind of have to hold it in place as you type Jan 16 19:39:59 :P Jan 16 19:40:06 JoshTriplett: not now Jan 16 19:40:08 that sounds like it isn't such a good thing Jan 16 19:40:13 yet you say "not bad" :P Jan 16 19:40:18 the right and left edge are 1/2 a cm off and if the weight of your hands isn't balance it tips in that direction Jan 16 19:40:21 prpplague: what hardware usually is inside? Jan 16 19:40:26 it's okay to type on but you have to be careful Jan 16 19:40:58 ok Jan 16 19:40:59 or maybe lay it on a big napkin or cloth Jan 16 19:41:17 it's not sturdy enough for using in your lap Jan 16 19:41:23 but it does fold up pretty damn small. Jan 16 19:41:29 mm Jan 16 19:41:39 and batteries last a long time Jan 16 19:41:47 and it associates and wakes up easily Jan 16 19:41:50 a bit expensive too :) Jan 16 19:42:15 if I'd get two mokos instead, it would only cost 200 more and I could use the other moko as a keyboard *giggle* Jan 16 19:42:32 ok that wasn't very funny Jan 16 19:42:34 sorry all Jan 16 19:42:48 hrw: Which two people, if you don't mind my asking? Jan 16 19:43:07 * koen google m5900 Jan 16 19:43:15 prpplague: yep, you showed the m5900 Jan 16 19:44:08 JoshTriplett: mickeyl and LaF0rge Jan 16 19:46:13 hrw: Ah. Jan 16 19:46:29 hmm Jan 16 19:46:29 sean is back in .tw, but no announcenment Jan 16 19:46:43 hrw: Should I email them with the info? Jan 16 19:47:30 JoshTriplett: is it like http://www.gpstk.org/ ? Jan 16 19:47:55 koen: Looking. Jan 16 19:48:17 JoshTripplet: I think you should wait until the release. I get the feeling they aren't interested in new software right now. =D Jan 16 19:49:00 JoshTriplett: mail openmoko-community ML rather then devs Jan 16 19:49:07 koen: Vaguely, in that it includes algorithms for some of the same things. Jan 16 19:49:15 JoshTriplett: JoshTriplett as in xcb god JoshTriplett ? Jan 16 19:49:33 koen: You just made my day. :) Jan 16 19:49:39 :) Jan 16 19:49:47 JoshTriplett: devs are working on getting it all working so they will not replace parts of base system Jan 16 19:50:10 koen: tried libxcb instead of libx11? Jan 16 19:50:17 not before the release Jan 16 19:50:38 koen: the OpenMoko release? Jan 16 19:50:44 hrw: Of course. Just proposing it as an alternative to the binary driver for the future. Jan 16 19:50:48 hrw: not yet, although xcb should be in libx11 the next release (iirc) Jan 16 19:51:08 koen: libx11 with Xlib/XCB got released some time ago, actually, along with XCB 1.0. Jan 16 19:51:31 koen: http://lists.freedesktop.org/archives/xorg/2006-November/019954.html Jan 16 19:51:33 hrw: I don't know of a toolkit that makes use of xcb, so trying it is a bit moot right now Jan 16 19:51:47 have to go - bye Jan 16 19:52:43 JoshTriplett: 1.1 didn't crosscompile for me, so I'm still stuck at 1.0.1 Jan 16 19:53:19 koen: If you want to take this to #xcb or #xorg-devel, I could help you with that. Jan 16 19:53:37 hrw|gone: hey, sorry i missed you, untill lately its all been z80 or 8051 stuff, now they've moved to arm7 stuff Jan 16 19:53:52 JoshTriplett: you're one of the first that doesn't run away screaming when I say 'crosscompile' :) Jan 16 19:54:10 koen: I use them regularly. :) Jan 16 19:54:24 thedaniel: alot of my hacks are posted at http://www.elinux.org/wiki/ Jan 16 19:54:24 koen: Though I haven't tried cross-compiling Xlib. Jan 16 19:55:18 koen: But I cross-compile from x86 to ppc for our embedded flight computer system. Jan 16 19:55:48 I crosscompile for arm, x86 and ppc :) Jan 16 19:56:13 koen: x86? From what host? :) Jan 16 19:56:14 * koen prepares for xorg 7.3 Jan 16 19:56:18 JoshTriplett: x86 Jan 16 19:56:35 koen: Different OS? Jan 16 19:56:44 sort of Jan 16 19:56:51 it's all in the same buildsystem Jan 16 19:57:19 and telling gcc and friends to crosscompile prevents contamination Jan 16 19:57:27 Interesting. Jan 16 19:58:34 you don't want to know how much software just hardcodes -I/usr/include in their makefiles Jan 16 19:59:08 koen: Well, I know we don't do *that*. But as you might expect, I wouldn't find it incredibly surprising if Xlib does something braindead. :) Jan 16 19:59:45 it could be caused by one of the patches, or bitrot in the diet-x11 configure options Jan 16 19:59:52 will look at it later :) Jan 16 20:00:21 koen: OK. If you need help, feel free to mail xcb@lists.freedesktop.org, and/or me. Jan 16 20:00:25 * JoshTriplett looks up "diet-x11". Jan 16 20:02:00 JoshTriplett: --disable-udc --enable-xcms --disable-xlocale --disable-xkb and replacing lots of stuff with stubs Jan 16 20:02:23 gets it down to a few 100k Jan 16 20:02:53 about ~180kB Jan 16 20:04:14 I need to check, now that we've split most of the protocol layer out of libxcb, whether libx11 with Xlib/XCB + libxcb takes up more or less space than libx11 without Xlib/XCB. Jan 16 20:05:07 koen: And "replacing lots of stuff with stubs" certainly sound suspicious as far as compiling Xlib/XCB goes; perhaps a bad interaction. Jan 16 20:05:16 XIM stuff Jan 16 20:05:41 koen: Ah, OK. Now where did I leave that ten-foot pole... Jan 16 20:07:25 the patches should be in http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages/xorg-lib/libx11 Jan 16 20:07:46 my ISP is in web 0.2 mode right now, so I can't check Jan 16 20:07:52 I just see one small autofoo patch there. Jan 16 20:08:03 And it doesn't look problematic. Jan 16 20:08:20 and http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages/xorg-lib/diet-x11 ? Jan 16 20:08:26 Ah, yeah, just found that too. Jan 16 20:09:23 koen: What issue does http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/xorg-lib/diet-x11/xchar2b.patch address? On what platforms does struct {char c1; char c2;} not take up 16 bits? Jan 16 20:09:34 arm Jan 16 20:09:44 koen: What happens there? Jan 16 20:09:54 unaligned access -> broken chars Jan 16 20:10:23 see http://www.koka-in.org/~kensyu/zaurus/diary/20030618.html Jan 16 20:10:30 koen: chars have alignment requirements? Jan 16 20:10:31 although that is solved with the new EABI on arm Jan 16 20:10:33 Looking. Jan 16 20:10:38 Ah, good. Jan 16 20:10:53 which the neo doesn't (yet) use Jan 16 20:10:56 koen: Uh, I can't read that... Jan 16 20:11:15 koen: It looks kinda mangled. Jan 16 20:11:16 JoshTriplett: babelfish :) Jan 16 20:11:34 koen: What character set is that in? Jan 16 20:11:49 iso-1022-jp I suspect Jan 16 20:12:06 koen: Ah. Jan 16 20:12:06 the one that doesn't display in emacs without the patch :) Jan 16 20:12:18 koen: It doesn't display in Firefox for me either. Jan 16 20:12:39 koen: Just looks like a pile of random characters, and lots of $ in particular. Jan 16 20:12:53 yep Jan 16 20:12:59 I <3 UTF-8. :) Jan 16 20:13:26 koen: Oh, it looks like your server reports it as ISO-8859-1. Jan 16 20:13:35 * JoshTriplett doublechecks. Jan 16 20:13:38 my server? Jan 16 20:14:06 Er, s/your/that/ Jan 16 20:15:58 koen: None of the diet-x11 patches look problematic for Xlib/XCB. Jan 16 20:33:36 koen: Several of those patches look perfectly reasonable to integrate, actually. Jan 16 20:56:15 i assume the announcement arrives, if the user couter will fall under 150... Jan 16 20:56:42 ok, I'll do my part Jan 16 20:56:56 which announcement are you thinking 'bout? Jan 16 20:57:02 4 left :) Jan 16 20:57:44 greentux: I think it needs to be above 200 :) Jan 16 20:58:13 atari_: some news about the cannel is will be published today Jan 16 20:58:32 ozamosi: that should not be the problem Jan 16 21:02:15 so_solid_moo, any news on this announcement yet? Jan 16 21:03:44 hey but mickey told that he wasnt the one one who would make an annoucement - he only knew that something is going to be announced Jan 16 21:04:06 hey parag0n come and ask isnt fine. We are all "waiting" for hours... :) Jan 16 21:04:22 i was idling until my power died! Jan 16 21:05:46 thats ok ... Jan 16 21:10:27 "neo was just a hoax. thank you for playing" Jan 16 21:11:06 hah Jan 16 21:11:35 buz: no, this announcement is for pre-orders. Next announcement is that it is a hoax ;) Jan 16 21:14:05 the roadmap for 2007 should be in the announcement Jan 16 21:14:12 oooooh Jan 16 21:14:13 yes Jan 16 21:14:19 THATs good news Jan 16 21:14:29 (helps planning gadget spending ;) Jan 16 21:14:43 crap, i need to start ebaying random parts of my room Jan 16 21:15:14 thats just too much trouble Jan 16 21:21:56 Have we been told what "hacker's lunchbox" means yet? Jan 16 21:23:15 there will be an announcement today UTC? Jan 16 21:23:16 PirateHead: redbull and altoids Jan 16 21:23:59 prpplague: only switched to redbull recently. I miss Surge. :-( Jan 16 21:24:34 Hmmm, I just realized that OpenMoko uses AGPS. Jan 16 21:25:25 That will require a fair bit of additional work past a standard GPS implementation, though the existing GPS implementations will still help. Jan 16 21:26:31 JoshTriplett: I heard discussion earlier that AGPS can be disabled, falling back to normal GPS operation. Jan 16 21:26:46 JoshTriplett: I don't know whether that's totally accurate, but a number of people seemed fairly convinced. Jan 16 21:27:15 on the mailing list, it was said that couldn't happen Jan 16 21:27:29 PirateHead: Even if you could do that, you wouldn't really want to. :) Jan 16 21:27:38 PirateHead: Though it would help for a starting place. Jan 16 21:27:52 PirateHead: hehe Jan 16 21:28:12 you can apparently turn off AGPS, but you still need the gpsd to get location info Jan 16 21:28:12 I don't know the difference in the first place. Jan 16 21:28:25 What does the A stand for? Jan 16 21:28:29 PirateHead: Assisted. Jan 16 21:28:35 PirateHead: In this case, by cell towers. Jan 16 21:28:43 Ah. Jan 16 21:28:55 so_solid_moo: Until it gets replaced. Jan 16 21:29:07 JoshTriplett: I'm just stating 'as shipped', as it were Jan 16 21:29:16 there was confusion about what the non-free daemon was needed for Jan 16 21:29:20 so_solid_moo: Whereas I just care about the hardware capabilities. Jan 16 21:29:33 so_solid_moo: I don't think anybody buying a Neo1973 is going to use it as it's shipped. =D Jan 16 21:29:51 that's besides the point. Jan 16 21:29:59 No, you're right. Jan 16 21:30:17 done partying? Jan 16 21:30:29 sorry :/ Jan 16 21:30:38 so_solid_moo: I spoke with the author of GPL-GPS, and he said that getting the bitstream would prove the only major difficulty here. Jan 16 21:30:41 *sight* Jan 16 21:30:56 JoshTriplett: I'm sure that's true; that's not the point I was answering though. Jan 16 21:31:13 oh oh oh Jan 16 21:37:19 gah Jan 16 21:37:24 just as I'm away Jan 16 21:37:31 ~lart fridays Jan 16 21:37:31 * apt takes out fridays with the trash Jan 16 21:38:21 koen: you did not avoid that Jan 16 21:39:25 oh btw, a in agps = assisted Jan 16 21:39:45 basically info is downloaded via cellular to enable quicker fixes on the client side Jan 16 21:39:49 IMO not a big deal Jan 16 21:40:18 yes Jan 16 21:40:51 just depends on the application. For war-driving cell strength, routing ambulances/service people, it can be a big help. Jan 16 21:40:53 especially since locks from cold start have gone down from 10 minutes to 40 seconds or so Jan 16 21:41:05 skome not really, once you get the data your good Jan 16 21:41:27 it doesn't improve performance, it saves you 40 seconds once, and thats it Jan 16 21:41:43 my point is, where time and accuracy are needed, it helps. Jan 16 21:41:46 especially since I suspect cellular providers will charge for it Jan 16 21:41:52 it doesn't improve accuracy Jan 16 21:42:24 * CM sleeps until friday Jan 16 21:42:29 and that 40 seconds is only if you turn the device off Jan 16 21:42:30 It can improve accuracy if you have lousy coverage and a good post-processing algorithm on a fast machine somewhere else. Jan 16 21:42:57 i believe thats mostly marketing Jan 16 21:43:12 even cheap $70 bt gps have great processing built in Jan 16 21:43:15 DGPS improves accuracy. AGPS primarily improves locking. Jan 16 21:43:15 Maybe, but I'm speaking from my own experience Jan 16 21:43:16 spikebik1: the advantage is not the startup time... Jan 16 21:43:26 and in the openmoko has plenty of cpu on board Jan 16 21:43:38 greentux what is it then? Jan 16 21:44:33 you can work with weaker signals... inhouse Jan 16 21:45:35 why? Jan 16 21:45:40 my GPS works in my house Jan 16 21:45:51 usually get 7-8 sats Jan 16 21:45:59 you still have to receive the signals at the GPS Jan 16 21:46:33 with agps you need only to recieve the stron timing signals, not the weak data channels. Jan 16 21:46:41 these data comes via gsm/gprs Jan 16 21:47:25 right Jan 16 21:47:34 but the weak data channels are only needed very occasionally Jan 16 21:48:22 mainly the ephemeris data Jan 16 21:48:52 JoshTriplett: dgps is $$$$$ Jan 16 21:49:14 but it does give you milimeter accuracy Jan 16 21:49:16 when our GPS is in a fast-moving vehicle or obstructed location, it helps performance to have the assist Jan 16 21:49:27 koen: Working on cutting that down to $$. :) Jan 16 21:49:35 dgps isn't worth much these days because they took the deliberately inserted noise out Jan 16 21:49:45 skome no it doesn't Jan 16 21:49:51 JoshTriplett: it just requires a fixed gps nearby + datalink Jan 16 21:49:55 and a good antenna Jan 16 21:50:13 agps is more about making the gps receiver cheaper Jan 16 21:50:21 spikebik1: dgps helps more than you think; you can go from multi-meter uncertainty to 1-10 cm uncertainty. Jan 16 21:50:32 koen: And the code to do the correlation. :) Jan 16 21:50:46 josh yes dgps helps (not agps), but it used to be 10M -> cm Jan 16 21:50:49 JoshTriplett: right, but that code is in the textbook :) Jan 16 21:50:53 oh wait or was it 100M Jan 16 21:50:56 yeah 100M -> cm Jan 16 21:51:00 not it's a few M -> cm Jan 16 21:51:09 so it's worth alot less these days Jan 16 21:51:14 but still helps Jan 16 21:51:54 skome so basically ephemeris is not the bottleneck these days Jan 16 21:52:27 and even a $70 GPS these days performs 10 times better than a $400 GPS did a year or two ago Jan 16 21:52:32 agreed. Not having decent locks _is_ Jan 16 21:52:47 right but you need a decent lock with or without Agps Jan 16 21:53:08 spikebik1: Yeah, going from a few m to a few cm helps hugely in many applications. Jan 16 21:53:15 so sure with agps you could skip the gpsd on the openmoko Jan 16 21:53:24 and pay your provider to do the calculation and send you the result Jan 16 21:53:32 or you could just do it yourself at the cost of some cpu/ram Jan 16 21:53:45 spikebik1: Rather defeats the purpose of having an open phone to offload proprietary stuff to the vendor. Jan 16 21:53:48 josh yup. Jan 16 21:54:01 josh yup Jan 16 21:54:09 thus a-gps isn't worth much Jan 16 21:54:21 Much like the phones which say "Oh, all open, pay no attention to the GSM coprocessor behind the untouchable memory curtain" Jan 16 21:54:41 josh except for the new motorola Jan 16 21:54:59 JoshTriplett: that's not openmoko? Jan 16 21:55:21 spikebik1: What about the new motorola? Jan 16 21:55:30 although to be honest the openmoko doesn't bother me at all... as long as I can place/receive data and voice calls I'm happy with a black box Jan 16 21:55:37 so_solid_moo: Not in the way I meant, no. Jan 16 21:55:48 there is a new single processor linux phone coming out, moto rizr z6 I think it's called Jan 16 21:55:51 JoshTriplett: ok :) Jan 16 21:56:06 all current linux phones (and many others) are dual cpu... one for the radio, one for the gui Jan 16 21:56:07 JoshTriplett: i used to know a guy with the last name Triplett, funny thing was he was actually was a twin, he had a twin brother Jan 16 21:56:12 so_solid_moo: The openmoko actually gives you access to the radio. Some of the phones just say "OK, PDA and phone, and you can't touch the phone part". Jan 16 21:56:18 yeah Jan 16 21:56:23 some charge to talk to the phone Jan 16 21:56:32 nextel had java aps for awhile Jan 16 21:56:41 but you had to pay per month to let the java aps talk to the network Jan 16 21:56:44 prpplague: Not related to any twins, TTBOMK. Jan 16 21:56:47 (even if you already had network service) Jan 16 21:56:57 spikebik1: Yeah. Because they can. Jan 16 21:57:15 so right now afaict, openmoko allows linux aps Jan 16 21:57:23 and motorola mostly only allows java aps Jan 16 21:57:29 (or at least supports devel for) Jan 16 21:57:36 ar e there plans for a J2ME environment for the openmoko? Jan 16 21:57:46 and various treo/palm based phones allow palm aps Jan 16 21:57:58 plan no, but the hardware looks rather j2me friendly Jan 16 21:58:04 (from what I've heard) Jan 16 21:58:13 128MB ram and a arm cpu makes j2me feasible Jan 16 21:58:20 many phones with 1/2 that ram do decent java Jan 16 21:58:31 alas the java acceleration for the cpu is rather expensive to license Jan 16 21:58:42 (so I've heard) Jan 16 22:00:44 spikebik1: The new motorola looks vaguely interesting, but I've become massively burned out on phones with tons of proprietary tech in them. Jan 16 22:01:50 not nearly as open as the openmoko, but shipping today, they supply kernel source, and many of the applications Jan 16 22:02:01 spikebik1: In this case: "...Windows Media Digital Rights Management, Windows Media Audio and Media Transfer Protocol are integrated in the OS..." Jan 16 22:02:05 not to mention binutils, gcc, and related Jan 16 22:02:13 yup, not 100% open. Jan 16 22:02:29 Especially since you can implement all of those things in open software. Jan 16 22:02:33 but you can compile your own kernel and add your own aps Jan 16 22:02:48 linux isn't particularly strong in DRM Jan 16 22:03:00 spikebik1: It does a fairly good job of getting around it in some cases. :) Jan 16 22:03:01 so itunes and other media sources for the most part avoid selling to linux clients Jan 16 22:03:20 which is fine by me, I'm not really interested in the DRM content anyways Jan 16 22:03:35 I have an ipod without a single DRM song on it Jan 16 22:04:00 thank god..... I can move my music to the openmoko Jan 16 22:04:14 in fairness, Jan 16 22:04:17 or motorola if I can't wait... my cell died this weekend 8-( Jan 16 22:04:29 guess I'll wait for friday to weigh my options Jan 16 22:05:32 the A1200 or Rokr E6 are decent safeties. Neither as open or as many pixels as the openmoko Jan 16 22:05:37 anyone know if there are any "bluetooth hid build-it-yourself" electronics kits or chips ? Jan 16 22:05:46 like if I wanted to hack together a hid keyboard Jan 16 22:05:56 ;) Jan 16 22:05:58 afaik you just need bt Jan 16 22:06:12 yeah.. but where do they sell them as parts, not ready-made devices Jan 16 22:06:13 rest can be done in software Jan 16 22:06:20 or am I better off buying some keyboard and tearing it apart ?-) Jan 16 22:06:26 well ok Jan 16 22:06:34 just thought programming with hid was easier Jan 16 22:07:08 look for a bluetooth remote Jan 16 22:07:20 I just want two inputs I can attach a morse paddle to Jan 16 22:07:24 I can do data input at 50wpm then :-) Jan 16 22:07:47 noidd: You can do 50wpm morse? Jan 16 22:08:01 a few years ago I could year Jan 16 22:08:04 I'm a tad rusty Jan 16 22:08:16 noidd, :D Jan 16 22:08:21 noidd: Still impressive. Jan 16 22:08:31 I probaby could get close to that on an iambic paddle now sending Jan 16 22:08:38 recieving I promise you I will suck Jan 16 22:08:45 few years == 10 years Jan 16 22:08:48 damn i'm old Jan 16 22:09:13 noidd: I just started looking into how to learn morse recently. Jan 16 22:09:50 http://www.tomstubes.com/images/CW%20Keys/CT%20Ham%20Dual%20(Iambic)%20Lever%20Paddle,%20Hand%20Crafted.jpg Jan 16 22:10:01 I use dto use something almost identical to that Jan 16 22:10:13 Josh: it changed my life Jan 16 22:11:16 noidd, :DD Jan 16 22:11:27 I met an OM who did telegraphy during WWII. He was the radio ops guy on HMS Newfoundland. Jan 16 22:11:32 stereo plug ?-) Jan 16 22:11:42 He's done it every day of his life since doing ham stuff Jan 16 22:12:11 and I would watch him send/recv at silly speeds and hold a completely seperate conversation with me at the same time (in person) Jan 16 22:12:17 ah... found bluetooth modules !! Jan 16 22:12:29 www.elfa.se -> search "bluetooth" Jan 16 22:12:34 I remember saying to myself that if I could learn to do that - I could learn to do anything Jan 16 22:12:38 2 years later ... Jan 16 22:13:10 Because of that I honestly believe there isn't a single learnable skill I can't pick up with suitable motivation. Jan 16 22:13:16 ie; lifechangeing Jan 16 22:13:45 yeah.. it's the motivation that's the problem always :) Jan 16 22:13:49 xkr47: Yeah, common and left paddle and right paddle Jan 16 22:14:02 simple "switches" Jan 16 22:14:02 hmm aha Jan 16 22:14:13 put them into a keyer (very simple algorithm Jan 16 22:14:16 ) Jan 16 22:14:18 "A module for recessing designed for wireless communication using Bluetooth, class 1. The module has UART interface, handles transmission up to 100 m at clear view and transmission speeds of up to 200 kbit/s." Jan 16 22:14:19 and out comes text Jan 16 22:14:43 hold the left paddle in and you get dit-dit-dit-dit-dit (until you let go) Jan 16 22:14:53 thr right paddle is dah-dah-dah-dah etc Jan 16 22:15:03 hold both and you get dit-dah-dit-dah-dit-dah Jan 16 22:15:25 or dah-dit-dah-dit-dah if you hit the right paddle before the squeeze Jan 16 22:15:27 I've heard scary stories about people awesome at morse code Jan 16 22:15:31 its a very simple interface and very very fast Jan 16 22:15:36 multiple conversations... even in different languages Jan 16 22:15:55 :) Jan 16 22:16:05 yeah, I used to be able to hold two conversations, one in morse, one in speech Jan 16 22:16:13 :D Jan 16 22:16:33 I wonder if I can get two digital input lines into the base connector Jan 16 22:16:41 impressive :) Jan 16 22:16:45 or - I could build the worlds first bluetooth morse paddle Jan 16 22:16:46 hah Jan 16 22:16:56 hmm, I should google for that Jan 16 22:17:05 heh Jan 16 22:17:08 :D Jan 16 22:17:21 or build a SMS -> BT -> morse code widget Jan 16 22:17:27 noidd, maybe you could just use the two buttons on the moko :D Jan 16 22:17:36 and then 2 openmoko's could talk in the same room via morse Jan 16 22:17:49 morse has already been proven in the cellphone marketplace: Jan 16 22:17:50 http://www.engadget.com/2005/05/06/morse-code-trumps-sms-in-head-to-head-speed-texting-combat Jan 16 22:17:51 :-D Jan 16 22:17:53 fortunately bt works so that won't be necessary Jan 16 22:18:02 heh saw that Jan 16 22:18:33 I'm curious about the worlds fastest of both is Jan 16 22:18:49 some crazy dude sends like 5k messages a day Jan 16 22:19:11 do morse code people send in their own language? Jan 16 22:19:26 or do they have shorthand like the SMS folks do. Jan 16 22:19:37 I.e. C U 2 nite Jan 16 22:20:03 spikebik1: Morse code does have shorthand, though not the SMS shorthand. Jan 16 22:20:10 <|Melkman|> heh, CQ Jan 16 22:20:30 spikebik1: In particular, Q codes, CQ, and some other slang. Jan 16 22:20:52 ok enough .. i want the neo ... now ; ) Jan 16 22:20:59 im waitnig like .. 2 days now :) Jan 16 22:20:59 news friday! Jan 16 22:21:22 kabturek: me too! I've lost my cell phone, and I really need a new one :( Jan 16 22:21:23 <|Melkman|> two whole more days to go :-( Jan 16 22:21:23 spikebik1: According to several sources, the world record for morse stands at 75.2 WPM. Jan 16 22:21:38 wow Jan 16 22:21:47 saying something useful I imagine Jan 16 22:21:49 spikebik1: Receiving. Jan 16 22:21:56 spikebik1: And yes, real text. Jan 16 22:21:57 oh receiving Jan 16 22:22:06 spikebik1: The sending record stands lower, I think. :) Jan 16 22:22:09 is receiving easier than sending? Jan 16 22:22:14 ah, apparently so Jan 16 22:22:29 Ok - I don't see a bluetooth morse paddle Jan 16 22:22:39 looks like I have a pic project - bwahaha Jan 16 22:23:13 ozamosi, yeah my moto v500 is dying and i wanted to get a moto e2 ( which also runs linux) but i wanted to wait for the neo ... i dont know if i can make it :) Jan 16 22:23:30 Well - my callsign was a blessing and a curse in morse Jan 16 22:23:30 kab where do you live? Jan 16 22:23:38 GW0TJO Jan 16 22:23:41 almost all dahs Jan 16 22:23:49 --. .-- ----- - .--- --- Jan 16 22:23:51 Maybe I could borrow a phone or something for a couple of months... Jan 16 22:24:11 really long but great in competitions since I could just slowly mangle everyone else in the pileup :-) Jan 16 22:24:18 spikebik1, poland Jan 16 22:24:19 anyone know what gsm freqs the openmoko supports? Jan 16 22:24:29 all four bands spike Jan 16 22:24:39 cool Jan 16 22:24:49 spikebik1: Looks like the sending record with a straight key (as opposed to assisted keys like the iambic key noidd mentioned) stands at 35 WPM. Jan 16 22:24:58 the reason I haven't bought an e2 is it doesn't support 850 MHz Jan 16 22:25:09 josh still impressive Jan 16 22:25:18 spikebik1: Definitely. Jan 16 22:25:29 the A1200 is similar and is quad band Jan 16 22:26:07 <|Melkman|> how the work on serial multiplexing comming along ? Jan 16 22:26:52 moko = -- --- -.- --- Jan 16 22:26:53 :) Jan 16 22:28:10 a smiley! Jan 16 22:30:13 ^^ ^-^ ^.^ ^-^ Jan 16 22:32:21 ok i now oficially hate offline bookmarks Jan 16 22:34:07 maybe use apple bt keyboard with moko ;--) http://www.verkkokauppa.com/productimages/orig/24572_01.jpg Jan 16 22:34:39 that slow? Jan 16 22:34:42 35wpm? Jan 16 22:36:16 noidd: Straight key. Jan 16 22:36:40 im switching to ma.gnolia.com Jan 16 22:36:51 spikebik1, e2 can be hacked to support 850 Jan 16 22:37:25 spikebik1, simple seem edit Jan 16 22:37:47 as far as i remember ( dont have the bookmarks but working on finding the info ) Jan 16 22:38:35 noidd: At least, according to the several sources I found. Jan 16 22:41:16 spikebik1, not the source that i was refering to but found a guide how to enable 850mhz http://www.e2mod.com/content/view/22/29/ Jan 16 22:48:46 "Known bugs: Sometimes it may crash." lol Jan 16 22:49:52 ;) Jan 16 22:52:02 Guys- whats the name of that package that we start our embedded distrbutions on Jan 16 22:52:13 contains functionality for shell, init, ls,mount, df etc Jan 16 22:52:30 busybox Jan 16 22:52:30 got it - thx Jan 16 23:02:29 Stephmw: as long we dont see a openmoko announcement, we will dont get also one from TT ;) Jan 16 23:02:33 good night Jan 16 23:03:31 night Jan 16 23:13:34 hello. what is the development platform? C? Jan 16 23:14:53 that's my understanding, for the main apis Jan 16 23:15:14 'course, nothing prevents binding to other languages Jan 16 23:16:26 * Stephmw nods Jan 16 23:17:03 anyone know if the neo speaker is loud enough for handsfree? Jan 16 23:19:15 *will be Jan 16 23:20:05 In the states we have something called AGPS. Each cell base station has a GPS receiver and passes ephemeris datao the cell phone. This eliminates the time to capture the satellites. Anyone heard of this> Jan 16 23:20:25 data to Jan 16 23:20:36 hey kabturek have you seen proof that enabling quad mode works? Jan 16 23:21:16 DukeOfURL, Neo's GPS chip is an AGPS chip Jan 16 23:21:28 interesting the neo has a higher res screen than the iphone Jan 16 23:21:44 duke yeah just discussed it. In general AGPS isn't worth it IMO, and getting the ephemeris data isn't a big deal Jan 16 23:21:56 psi and a smaller screen Jan 16 23:22:02 yeah Jan 16 23:22:06 I'm wondering wherre increasing dpi is less useful Jan 16 23:22:12 im looking at this table http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/iPhone Jan 16 23:22:18 spikebik1: it's worth it if you don't want to keep gps constantly enabled Jan 16 23:22:27 (apparently it can also get the assist info from the chip manufacturer's serverse via ip, but also work without assist) Jan 16 23:22:38 spikebik1, people on the forum said that it worked - i don't have the e2 ( yet) and i dont need 850 becouse it isnt used in my country. .. but i think its the same as with the V series Jan 16 23:22:45 so even disabled epheris data doesn't constantly expire Jan 16 23:22:59 the A1200 is quad band so it's not an issue Jan 16 23:23:09 850 MHz is the reason I didnt' buy an e2 awhile back Jan 16 23:23:24 I'm not at all sure the hack just doesn't change the display and has no real effect on reception Jan 16 23:23:28 same with enabling edge Jan 16 23:24:17 so_solid_moo so if you've had your gps on recently your good to go Jan 16 23:25:23 sure, for some value of recently Jan 16 23:25:30 if it's not recent enough, agps helps Jan 16 23:25:54 dunno Jan 16 23:26:08 I randomly turn on my GPS and get a sync within the first minute Jan 16 23:26:21 even the first time out of the box Jan 16 23:26:50 that's great, but a minute is actually a long time. Jan 16 23:27:37 Does anyone know how well AGPS is supported by the cell companies? In the states? Jan 16 23:28:06 Adding a GPS receiver to each cell tower wouldn't be cheap... Jan 16 23:28:12 just leaving the GPS in standby (almost zero power) removes even that issue Jan 16 23:28:23 cell towers have always had gps, they need them Jan 16 23:28:40 er at least always for digital, less sure of analog Jan 16 23:29:03 Then would AGPS work indoors? Jan 16 23:29:12 no more than a regular GPS Jan 16 23:29:32 mine works indoors at home (normal house) but less so at work (commercial building) Jan 16 23:29:37 spikebik1, as i remember moto v500 was also triband and i could turn the 850 too , the same goes for the L6 ( evidence here http://www.modmymoto.com/forums/showthread.php?t=501 ) so i belive the e2 is capable of quad band Jan 16 23:30:29 My BT GPS syncs from cold start in 40 seconds Jan 16 23:30:39 and lasts 300 or similar hours in standby Jan 16 23:30:50 and cost $70 Jan 16 23:31:00 I get 8/9 sats indoors at my house Jan 16 23:31:02 who will manufacture the phone? Jan 16 23:31:04 and 10/11 outside Jan 16 23:31:14 openmoko = fic Jan 16 23:31:21 FIC? Jan 16 23:31:30 FIC. Jan 16 23:33:16 kab I'd only believe that if someone showed the signal strength of being strong on 850 and poor on 1900 then moded a phone and showed it strong on both Jan 16 23:33:45 especially since part of the hack is overwriting the triband string to quadband Jan 16 23:33:55 Ahhh FIC in Taiwan Jan 16 23:34:04 similar with edge... document a slower download before and a fast download after Jan 16 23:34:33 after all why would motorolas new high end rokr not have quad band if it was just a hex edit Jan 16 23:38:16 A-GPS's main purpose seems to be to make money, and allow for cheaper GPSs inside cell phones. Jan 16 23:38:38 Although that cheaper comes at the expense of bandwidth... which will of course cost $$$ Jan 16 23:38:55 services I've seen charge for it... AND 1 minute of airtime per waypoint set. Jan 16 23:39:32 hell I can't even get cingular/AT&T to set the time on my siemens phone. Jan 16 23:39:44 (which supports getting time from the cellular network) Jan 16 23:41:10 btw almanac data can last for months Jan 16 23:41:57 ephereris data is valid for 30 minutes or so Jan 16 23:42:31 but is broadcast every 30 seconds by each sat Jan 16 23:45:21 yah, so basically you wake up to listen every half-hour and you should stay current without assist? shouldn't eat much battery... Jan 16 23:45:50 ah, cool found a reference Jan 16 23:45:56 a-gps typically saves 18 seconds Jan 16 23:46:01 (worst case) Jan 16 23:46:05 and zero (the common case) Jan 16 23:47:30 "yay" Jan 16 23:49:15 what is the pricing on the Neo1973? Jan 16 23:49:23 $350 has been the quote Jan 16 23:49:30 yikes Jan 16 23:50:03 not bad actually (for an unlocked/unsponsered phone) Jan 16 23:50:26 I have an application where I provide a basic cell phone (no camera, no music, etc.) to a subject in order to track his movements. Jan 16 23:51:05 Is there a cheap phone that will do this? Jan 16 23:51:21 <|Melkman|> the neo Jan 16 23:51:29 why not just get a GPS-logger? Jan 16 23:51:31 it's quite a good price for the features, methinks Jan 16 23:52:08 (basically a battery, gps, and solid-state storage), usually a programable sample rate Jan 16 23:52:20 Is there a phone where I can install a Java applet that will send location information to a central server? Jan 16 23:52:27 cheap phone? Jan 16 23:52:38 ah, auto data collection Jan 16 23:53:12 spikebik1, http://www.motomodders.net/Default.aspx?tabid=55&view=topic&forumid=80&postid=271942 ;) Jan 16 23:53:30 The way it works now, as I understand, is you send an SMS message to the target phone and it replies with location information. Very expensive with Cingular. Jan 16 23:54:34 A GPS-logger won't work because it's a real-time applicaiton Jan 16 23:54:36 <|Melkman|> DukeOfURL: something like: http://tracking.gilsson.com/alwaysfind_mini.html Jan 16 23:54:44 numerous phones have gps, a-gps and support java or brew developed aps Jan 16 23:54:56 motorola e815 comes to mind Jan 16 23:55:04 Which I think is one of the cheaper ones Jan 16 23:55:51 v323 as well Jan 16 23:57:01 In general gprs is often way cheaper than SMS Jan 16 23:57:16 yes, even when gprs is pricy, because sms is insanely priced Jan 16 23:57:24 indeed Jan 16 23:57:35 unlimited gprs on t-mobile is $5.99 which IMO is reasonable Jan 16 23:57:49 can't be used for laptops though Jan 16 23:57:49 ooh, that's even better than my deal (10 € month) Jan 16 23:58:04 fine for uploading gps coords though Jan 16 23:58:15 why not for laptops? Jan 16 23:58:27 because they charge differently for laptop bandwidth Jan 16 23:58:33 I think that's $20 ish Jan 16 23:58:40 how do they tell? Jan 16 23:58:52 their locked phones disable DUN unless you pay Jan 16 23:59:00 righto Jan 16 23:59:22 so yes sometimes you can get away with it Jan 16 23:59:29 and sometimes bt is locked out, but not usb Jan 16 23:59:31 well, $20 for unlimited isn't that bad still Jan 16 23:59:37 I paid 20€ until recently Jan 16 23:59:42 hi wabz Jan 16 23:59:59 :) Jan 17 00:00:00 I'm less sure of that number, I think it's right.... I was shopping for openmoko/motorola gprs bandwidth Jan 17 00:01:03 spikebik1, ok here's the link to the e2 community - see on the forums that people use 850 ;) http://www.freemod.net Jan 17 00:01:23 kab that last URL is more convincing... interesting Jan 17 00:02:12 yeah but i dont know why motorola disables 850 ... Jan 17 00:02:28 I could see it on the e2.. it's selling cheap Jan 17 00:02:45 much harder to understand on their new high end phones like the e6 Jan 17 00:30:59 ok time to go asleep :) later Jan 17 00:48:19 Wow... Just found a link to liberviscos article from yesterday in the news section of the swedish piracy party's forums. Jan 17 00:49:16 So the announcement today was that theres going to be an announcement on friday? Jan 17 00:49:18 hey guys, i just want to say as a mobile phone user i'm very excited about what you guys are doing Jan 17 00:49:49 i think quite a few of us are mobile phone users :) Jan 17 00:50:07 thanks Stefan_C Jan 17 00:50:08 hehe Jan 17 00:50:12 in fact, i'd say that 100% of the humans in here probably use a mobile phone Jan 17 00:50:26 no you don't understand how much i use my mobile phone Jan 17 00:50:28 since no one else wanted to accept, i'll take the gratitude :) Jan 17 00:50:30 but still, i agree, it is awesome :) **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jan 17 00:54:12 2007 Jan 17 00:54:44 and what of higher level languages? are things like pygtk or the equivalent Perl/ruby library going to be satisfactory, or should one concentrate on C? Jan 17 00:57:14 I believe many of these questions don't have any definitive answers yet, since the focus from the FIC-persons seems to be hardware at the moment, and no one else really know what's going on. Jan 17 00:57:35 probably true Jan 17 00:57:51 :-) Jan 17 00:58:14 still, can't see why you couldn't use python, and I'd expect moko-spesific library bindings to appear for it from Thin Air (TM) Jan 17 00:58:17 have you guys tried working with real handset makers? Jan 17 00:58:36 mjr: agreed Jan 17 00:58:53 FIC are a real handset maker :'< Jan 17 00:59:08 at least in the openmoko community "no-one knows what's going on" translates to careful optimism, whilst in the iPhone 'community' it translates to countless fanboy posts about how great it might be Jan 17 00:59:25 I just wish that the current firmware revision was public, so people could have a look at what's happening. Jan 17 00:59:25 no multitouch? fucknutters! Jan 17 00:59:31 i missed that one! Jan 17 01:00:31 mjr: i'm not so concerned about bindings, more about whether it would have the muscle to warrant having a python interpreter. but yes, nothing's in stone - I was half-hoping for a "nooes, you must use C" response :p ^_^ Jan 17 01:00:53 so where can idea man come in to the picture, i can't code for my life but i have the vision of a perfect mobile phone in my mind. i just need someone to create it Jan 17 01:01:02 is the no multitouch thing a hardware limitation? Jan 17 01:01:05 I think 266 MHz ARM is quite muscular enough for Python Jan 17 01:01:50 'course, dunno how full the stock flash will come by default, you might need to install on micro-sd *shrug* Jan 17 01:01:54 Stefan_C: perhaps make some screenshots or animations of your ideas? much easier to communicate ideas like that in this way Jan 17 01:01:57 wabz: i think the discussion yestarday and on the mailing list said it's a driver issue and possibly a patent issue. Jan 17 01:02:12 ahh Jan 17 01:02:25 lamby: not a designer either hehe i'm talking about features and user experiance not ui and eye candy Jan 17 01:03:03 Stefan_C: but still. it would be hard to explain without diagrams, i'm sure. and i'm certain that people could see through your (claimed!) lack of design skills. Jan 17 01:08:24 well what's your role in all this lamby? Jan 17 01:10:30 a good thing to look at would be the gp2x games console, its based on a similar system (230mhz ARM SoC, 64MB RAM, 64MB NAND), and the developers manage to get quite a lot of power from it Jan 17 01:11:04 Stefan_C: professional irc lurker Jan 17 01:11:19 is this phone going to work in Australia? I have no idea how to tell Jan 17 01:12:22 parag0n: neat Jan 17 01:12:25 wabz: check the mailing list? Jan 17 01:12:43 parag0n: gp2x has two processors, though Jan 17 01:12:53 yeah, scrolling through now, can't find a search feature :p Jan 17 01:13:09 parag0n: it's also C/SDL code though, rather low-level and no UI/GSM overhead. but still. Jan 17 01:13:14 well if it's quad band it should work everywhere in the world Jan 17 01:15:43 well, everywhere with GSM service Jan 17 01:15:43 the second processor on the 2x is largely useless Jan 17 01:16:04 because it doesnt have a MMU or its own memory or something, i'm not sure on the details Jan 17 01:16:26 Ok. I don't know, so I'll trust you :) Jan 17 01:17:36 parag0n: and I suppose the era of PC games that one is likely to port to it won't take into account multiple cpus Jan 17 01:18:18 i'm hoping to grab the source from a few 2x games and port them to the openmoko Jan 17 01:18:31 Hm... Jan 17 01:18:32 VGA screen <3 Jan 17 01:18:45 port DooM \o/ Jan 17 01:18:59 What's the name of that emulator all old console games use in 2x? Jan 17 01:19:07 mame? Jan 17 01:19:13 That's it! Jan 17 01:19:27 I knew it was something like that, but maemo wasn't it :) Jan 17 01:20:03 Do you think mame would work on the neo? Jan 17 01:20:25 yeah Jan 17 01:20:30 ozamosi: mame is not console games reall Jan 17 01:20:31 y Jan 17 01:20:33 probably. Lack of hardware keys may make controlling many games awkward though. Jan 17 01:20:40 the acronym is 'multiple arcade machine emulator' Jan 17 01:20:55 ('less you get a BT keypad ;) Jan 17 01:21:00 the 2x's version is only 0.35 or something., and you'd have to add 'virtual' keys to it somehow Jan 17 01:22:02 yeah, virtual keys would work to an extent Jan 17 01:22:28 of course, with no multitouch... Jan 17 01:22:39 you can only press one button at a time :( Jan 17 01:23:13 it'd probably be prudent to define combo softbuttons... Jan 17 01:23:14 parag0n: if the hardware actually support it, maybe there'll be a 3:rd party way to get it :) Jan 17 01:23:39 It's my impression that the hw doesn't. But who am I to know... Jan 17 01:24:00 I think bluetooth keyboard would be simpler anyway :) Jan 17 01:24:21 does it have bluetooth? Jan 17 01:24:24 when the 'games on neo' came up in the maillist my very first thought was Advance Wars DS Jan 17 01:24:25 oh, we're back to talking about just input in general Jan 17 01:25:20 Stefan_C: read topic :) Jan 17 01:25:23 does openmoko have bluetooth? Jan 17 01:25:36 ahhhhh thanks! Jan 17 01:27:54 is there anyone here actually in the openmoko project? Jan 17 01:28:32 there is at least 1 Jan 17 01:28:39 and, no, its not me :P Jan 17 01:28:57 Probably not at this hour, though. Jan 17 01:29:57 well i just wanted to shout out an idea. with all this hype about web os's and such ... why not throw one on the openmoko? pay a provider a small fee and we get a login page so we can use a full blown browser to manipulate all the data on our mokos Jan 17 01:30:23 why not put the web server on the moko? Jan 17 01:30:27 (yes, i'm very serious) Jan 17 01:30:47 then when you connect it to a pc you could set up contacts etc Jan 17 01:31:01 that's what i just said Jan 17 01:31:33 i wrote a whole post about it on my blog, let me dig it up Jan 17 01:31:55 the bit about a provider threw me off Jan 17 01:32:23 http://www.ringnokia.com/2006/11/my_laptop_is_th.html Jan 17 01:32:57 well see think about it, in order for it to work from any computer the ip of the device would have to be known, similar to a dyndns thing. that usually isn't free Jan 17 01:33:25 to further make things more managable, have the UI hosted on someones powerful server and just get the data off the moko so it isn't being strained Jan 17 01:36:49 dyndns is free Jan 17 01:36:53 up to 5 IPs or so Jan 17 01:37:21 throw some google ads by the users content and there is your revenue model Jan 17 01:38:15 Stefan_C - is this basically the Sidekick experience? Jan 17 01:38:23 (forgive, i only scanned the blog post) Jan 17 01:38:29 i wouldn't know i never used a sidekick Jan 17 01:38:42 They have a full web interface for all PIM features of the phone Jan 17 01:39:12 and it syncs OTA Jan 17 01:39:12 your camphone pictures etc also sync OTA automatically and you can log in at tmobile.com to look at everything stored in your phone Jan 17 01:39:39 sounds expensive... Jan 17 01:39:57 not in the US Jan 17 01:40:11 depends Jan 17 01:40:13 USD 20 for unlimited data and SMS when I had a Sidekick II a year or two ago Jan 17 01:40:37 i think it might be 30 now Jan 17 01:40:44 some carriers have reasonable gprs, some don't Jan 17 01:41:12 spikebik1: true - most of my experience has been with t-mobile, which has very reasonable rates Jan 17 01:41:13 ah yeah.. only good thing about the sidekick is the data plan Jan 17 01:41:23 thats where the bluetooth comes in Jan 17 01:41:31 connect the moko to your pc via bt Jan 17 01:41:38 i pay 29.95 for unlimited data and a subscription to their WiFi network (found in starbux and hotels) Jan 17 01:41:41 the point i'm trying to make is don't limit your input options Jan 17 01:42:09 640x480 and fingers are nice ... but we can do something so much richer Jan 17 01:42:16 and a good point it is - i would be very, very happy with a clone of the sidekick's web interface, with additional sync / import / export thrown in Jan 17 01:45:23 hi. what is openmoko? Jan 17 01:46:15 DebianTUX: http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_20061107.txt Jan 17 01:46:22 press releease for you Jan 17 01:47:06 im seeing some photos Jan 17 01:47:59 no wifi, eh? Jan 17 01:48:01 that's too bad Jan 17 02:03:50 listen stop using the word sync Jan 17 02:03:53 i'm not talking aboutu sync Jan 17 02:04:04 i'm talking about manipulating the data in real time Jan 17 02:05:13 i think that's unfeasible Jan 17 02:05:29 but you could achieve a similar effect with a fast sync, or like a 'push' sync Jan 17 02:13:30 current peak record: 163 nicks, seems to currently at 52th place: http://irc.netsplit.de/channels/?net=freenode&query=&num=50 Jan 17 02:14:00 (tough to my eyes it seems to list 9 channels/page instead of 10) Jan 17 02:26:17 this comment gave me mostly useless idea: "2007-01-16 22:12:08 if I'd get two mokos instead, it would only cost 200 more and I could use the other moko as a keyboard *giggle*" Jan 17 02:26:48 connect them with bluetooth and run same software and with 2 neos you can have 2 touch screen ;-) Jan 17 02:26:56 multitouch! Jan 17 02:27:07 haha Jan 17 02:33:00 why stop with 2? Jan 17 02:33:06 get about 60 of them Jan 17 02:33:10 make a video wall Jan 17 02:33:36 for input less useful, but 4 could be possible: 2 hands and 2 foots Jan 17 02:33:44 ha, good luck if someone calls you. "argh which one do i answer?!" Jan 17 02:34:15 shit, make a mobile beowulf Jan 17 02:34:29 I bet there are huge amount of ideas for multitouch not yet invented, I just wish neo would have multitouch so that those would be invented first by free people and not by patent people Jan 17 02:37:10 its a bit like you were being offered full keyboard and then you get only morse code :-( Jan 17 02:37:18 (well not exactly but ..) Jan 17 02:37:28 "full" just depends on your alphabet ^^ Jan 17 02:37:36 hehe Jan 17 02:38:48 *if* multitouch can be done by an existing touchscreen, and its just a software patent issue, everyone outside the US will be allowed multitouch on their neos ;) Jan 17 02:40:08 software patents are such tripe anyway. Jan 17 02:40:23 indeed Jan 17 02:40:31 parag0n: I really wish this is case (it being only software thing) Jan 17 02:40:50 i hope so Jan 17 02:40:59 if so, it wont be without it for long ;) Jan 17 02:41:15 hmm having multiple pointers would require some h4x to the X code Jan 17 02:41:48 parag0n ummm multi-touch is not patentable Jan 17 02:41:53 it's existed for quite some time Jan 17 02:41:57 good Jan 17 02:42:02 the name however is Jan 17 02:42:06 but the ability is not Jan 17 02:42:10 lamby: i don't think you will need to do much hacking to x Jan 17 02:42:14 I've seen popular videos on it for years Jan 17 02:42:21 thedaniel: good, I wasn't planning on doing it myself ;-) Jan 17 02:42:32 i'm just wondering how apple managed to patent 400 things in the iPhone, or if someone just made that number up Jan 17 02:42:56 probably some apple fanboy Jan 17 02:43:14 lamby: it can be done. There is some kind of X patch that enables multiple pointers Jan 17 02:43:37 Hi Jan 17 02:43:40 ozamosi: excellent.. I definately won't have to do that myself then ;-) Jan 17 02:43:43 i was really excited about the iPhone until i found openmoko :D Jan 17 02:43:48 full multitouch support would require hacks on X11, gtk+, applications, but I bet I could do some multitouch with a lot less hacking Jan 17 02:44:20 the fact i wouldnt be able to write software for the iphone killed it for me completely Jan 17 02:44:24 parag0n: really? :-/ no SDK? with DRM? locked down? 6 month waiting time? Jan 17 02:44:32 parag0n: ah Jan 17 02:44:35 for example multitouch gestures -> keypresses (including ctrl-, alt-, shift-, etc..: nice for xemacs for example) Jan 17 02:44:37 parag0n same here. Jan 17 02:45:09 i'm going to be waiting at least 2 months for the neo anyway i suspect :/ Jan 17 02:45:13 if not more Jan 17 02:45:20 * lamby wants to see aloril programming in xemacs on the bus :p Jan 17 02:45:53 Have you guys seen this http://www.gnusolaris.org/ ? Jan 17 02:45:56 erk, 3am Jan 17 02:45:59 night guys Jan 17 02:45:59 why not? VGA screen existed back then and Neo is plenty more powerful than computers 15 years ago ;-) Jan 17 02:46:02 Very cool indeed Jan 17 02:46:44 edwardocallaghan: I played with the livecd thingie a few months back :) Jan 17 02:46:50 aloril: :-) Jan 17 02:46:56 nn parag0n Jan 17 02:47:03 Do a install yet ? Jan 17 02:47:16 lamby: actually I'm serious, I do plan to code with Neo 1973 Jan 17 02:47:16 s/Do/Done/ Jan 17 02:47:17 edwardocallaghan meant: Done a install yet ? Jan 17 02:48:06 ^See my great usage of sed up there on the IRC ^ :D Jan 17 02:48:17 aloril: i'm sure you are serious Jan 17 02:48:22 dudes what is this irc bot Jan 17 02:48:22 aloril: ;) Jan 17 02:48:27 dunno yet how much programs would run locally and how much would be by using FreeNX Jan 17 02:48:29 i love the search and replace Jan 17 02:48:41 aloril: what kind of input? onscreen keyboard? There won't be any space left for the characters! :) Jan 17 02:49:05 plug a roll up USB one in ;) Jan 17 02:49:14 ozamosi: ha, you've never used emacs have you? you just use shift and ctrl to type everything. Jan 17 02:49:22 ozamosi: multitouch gestures, but so that underlying screen would be visible, but.. well I will invent something Jan 17 02:49:31 lamby:Did you play with ZFS yet ? Jan 17 02:49:39 ozamosi: at least Twiddler2 should work if nothing else Jan 17 02:49:54 (yes, I was the one who wanted to buy a 14" laptop, because I didn't think I'd be able to see what's on the monitor if it was smaller. yes, my 13" laptop is my main computer) Jan 17 02:50:12 edwardocallaghan: no Jan 17 02:50:27 edwardocallaghan: should I? :p Jan 17 02:50:36 Yes, very much so ! Jan 17 02:50:49 Its ultra cool ! Jan 17 02:51:18 Edward switches to Run level -- 'Bed time' -- soon Jan 17 02:51:31 seems like a mashup between RAID-1 and reiserFS Jan 17 02:51:48 lol, and SAN storage Jan 17 02:52:03 ZFS is the end all Jan 17 02:52:11 no silver bullets! Jan 17 02:52:57 no, this maybe it Jan 17 02:53:00 http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/zfs_learning_center.jsp Jan 17 02:53:04 check it out Jan 17 02:53:19 aloril: maybe speech recognition would be funnier. I want to overhear someone saying "hash bang usr slash bin shash perl enter enter use strict " etc ;) Jan 17 02:53:53 edwardocallaghan: hehe only a few people in the world get excited over filesystems ^^ Jan 17 02:54:24 I am using it over a load of different disks in mirror RAIDs that are strip together Jan 17 02:54:37 Yes well I'm one when its that good Jan 17 02:55:06 but you can do that with current linux software raid ^ Jan 17 02:55:47 dot dot without having to change OS :p Jan 17 02:56:02 When a disk fails, nothing happens ... everything cares on as normal and tells you, "Oh by the way a disk just blow up, I suggest you do something about that" Jan 17 02:56:31 ya, md.c does that already with some userland tool like mdadm Jan 17 02:56:42 But you can use cheap disks, no RIAD controller required Jan 17 02:56:58 yup, sounds like linux + md Jan 17 02:57:01 that's what I'm talking about too - linux software raid Jan 17 02:57:02 You can build a mirror in less then a second Jan 17 02:57:24 umm, I never timed it, doesn't take long on linux Jan 17 02:57:33 Volume management and the Linux software RAID is .... Jan 17 02:57:43 lvm or evms Jan 17 02:57:48 it's fine, just run LVM on top. Jan 17 02:57:52 I use lvm2 mostly Jan 17 02:57:55 chunky and old Jan 17 02:58:01 works great for me Jan 17 02:58:09 I've had longer uptimes than zfs has existed Jan 17 02:58:33 mirrors, snapshots, and changing volume sizes meets my volume management needs Jan 17 02:58:39 Watch the videos of ZFS, you really got to see this stuff ... Jan 17 02:59:04 auto mounts and unmounts filesystems Jan 17 02:59:31 Videos? I thougt that even screenshots was overkill for file systems :) Jan 17 02:59:32 zfs is way to propietary/non portable to consider for most of the stuff I do Jan 17 02:59:37 create and destroy them as and when needed **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 17 02:59:57 2007