**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jan 17 02:59:57 2007 Jan 17 02:59:59 propietary? Jan 17 03:00:03 spikebik1: so, md+lwm on the openmoko? ^^ Jan 17 03:00:05 automount/unmounts are revolutionary 1970 technologies Jan 17 03:01:02 no, you need to have a look at it before you can talk about it Jan 17 03:01:09 spikebik1: I believe all the hype is because all the cool stuff are integrated into the filesystem - you've already mentioned a handfull of applications a user must learn Jan 17 03:01:19 Solaris maybe soon under the GPL Jan 17 03:01:36 yeah, so I hear Jan 17 03:01:39 Its already open and you can get all the code for ZFS so how is it propietary Jan 17 03:01:50 gpl is cool, much better then the sun community license Jan 17 03:01:56 hopefully it well get ported to some cool platforms Jan 17 03:02:04 right now solaris isn't very portable Jan 17 03:02:15 is osx 10.5 going to come with zfs? Jan 17 03:02:22 Yes Jan 17 03:02:36 cool, that should increase exposure dramatically Jan 17 03:02:50 And that's rubbish Solaris can run on a lot of different ARK's Jan 17 03:03:00 ARK's? Jan 17 03:03:05 inc PPC Jan 17 03:03:26 zfs + solaris runs on powerpc today? Jan 17 03:03:34 I don't consider 3 "lots" Jan 17 03:03:45 http://www.sun.com/software/solaris/zfs_learning_center.jsp Watch the videos ... then try it out with some old disks, even use broken ones with bad sectors Jan 17 03:03:54 yes it does Jan 17 03:04:04 Google Polaris Jan 17 03:04:30 wow sun has sector remapping? Jan 17 03:04:40 I think thats a 1980's tech ;-) Jan 17 03:04:54 linux is the king of old tech Jan 17 03:05:08 ext3 is not a 128bit file system now is it ? Jan 17 03:05:19 right, and 128 bits is silly Jan 17 03:05:19 sector remapping is 1960s tech Jan 17 03:05:42 at the high end, not the common case though Jan 17 03:05:46 You got some old disks there? Jan 17 03:05:54 Why did FIC stop at 128MB RAM??? Jan 17 03:06:04 for the Neo1973? Jan 17 03:06:04 128MB is about double the usual Jan 17 03:06:29 just normal ATA type will do, try making a Pool with ZFS Jan 17 03:06:51 But package size is about the same for 512MB... Jan 17 03:07:02 Maybe more heat, though Jan 17 03:07:34 edwardo calculate how many years of disk production would have to be in a single filesystem to need 2^65 blocks Jan 17 03:08:04 Then do $dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/hda1 or what ever your disk is and wipe out say the first 2gb of your data and see how ZFS handles that Jan 17 03:08:37 16exobytes is the limit Jan 17 03:08:46 So it scales ;) Jan 17 03:09:09 that's not justification for "it scales" in the /slightest/ Jan 17 03:09:36 That was a joke C3PO Jan 17 03:10:17 right so major parts of ZFS have more overhead to handle the case when a decades worth of the earths disk production is put on a single computer Jan 17 03:10:38 edwardocallaghan: ;-) Jan 17 03:11:05 spikebik1: it IS possible to fill a zfs file system! You just have to ionize all oceans! Jan 17 03:11:09 lol Jan 17 03:11:17 Just try it Jan 17 03:11:24 oza nope Jan 17 03:11:28 edwardo yeah RAID works ;-) Jan 17 03:11:56 I guess you guys are here because you like to play like me Jan 17 03:12:11 So have a play and your see why ZFS is cool ... Jan 17 03:12:32 RAID works but not the way its done at the moment Jan 17 03:12:35 I tried zfs on a few dual opterons, no drivers 8-( Jan 17 03:12:36 When will the Neo1973 SDRAM shut down? Will there be a sleep mode for the phone? How will that work? Jan 17 03:12:45 RAID-Z2 very cool Jan 17 03:12:59 and my spare machine right now is an itanium, so no port Jan 17 03:13:08 http://pastie.caboo.se/33683 Jan 17 03:13:22 and I wanted to test zfs on my killer dual opteron raid server, no raid controller driver Jan 17 03:13:51 I'm sure I'm stumple across some solaris compatible hardware at some point Jan 17 03:14:17 But you don't need a RAID controller for ZFS RAID's ! Jan 17 03:14:43 Heh, well I don't use the RAID controller for raid, software raid is way faster Jan 17 03:14:50 I just use it to get 16 SATA ports Jan 17 03:14:50 Try a express build on opensolaris.org Jan 17 03:14:58 nn guys and gals Jan 17 03:15:04 spikebik1: actually, me and a friend of mine tried to calculate it. Our results showed that only about 75% of all water on earth would need to be ionized to free enough nitrogen to fill 16exobytes. We used some estimations, but I don't think they were that far off. Jan 17 03:15:36 oza and how does one encode data in nitrogen plasma? Jan 17 03:15:48 spikebik1: that is currently not possible. Jan 17 03:15:59 I did the calculation and it was something like 30 years assuming disks got twice as big every year Jan 17 03:16:16 and of course that isn't in a networked filesystem, but hooked up to a single computer Jan 17 03:16:36 But if you used all water on earth to store information, instead of drinking it, then zfs Could run into some problems with space! Jan 17 03:16:37 practically it seemed like 64 bits is enough for the next 100 years or so Jan 17 03:17:12 and will run significantly faster since it's a native datatype for almost every cpu Jan 17 03:17:17 In this example, I use nitrogen atoms as bits, if that wasn't obvious. Jan 17 03:17:21 and of course doubles the bandwidth Jan 17 03:17:28 heh Jan 17 03:17:43 but an atom can encode more than one bit ;-) Jan 17 03:18:30 so zfs screams to me, sun marketing, existing functionality, and significantly increased overhead Jan 17 03:19:00 available on a very limited platform (limited hardware, limited OSs) Jan 17 03:19:26 ignoring the native 64 data type seems particularly weird Jan 17 03:19:33 spikebik1: you see? 128 bits won't be enough! Let's create a 256 bit file system! :D Jan 17 03:19:42 and be twice as great as sun! Jan 17 03:19:47 Yes that's another thing about ZFS, it takes care of endianness Jan 17 03:19:49 and next year 512 Jan 17 03:20:07 filesystems can't fix endianness Jan 17 03:20:52 What a bet ? Jan 17 03:20:55 yeah Jan 17 03:21:13 If I write 16 bytes to zfs it has no idea if that is 1 number, 16 numbers, or a string Jan 17 03:21:19 You can take a ZFS pool out of a SPARC box and put it in a x86 box Jan 17 03:21:55 and c code when it reads those 16 bytes will die on the wrong endian machine Jan 17 03:22:21 maybe you mean the metadata... thats common Jan 17 03:22:48 I mean - when you buy a razor, it has 5 blades, but you can only use it on one face at a time. That's four wasted razors for every "sane" one. If we believe 64 bits is "enough", we can create a 320 bit file system, and still not be worse than gillette. Jan 17 03:23:12 ozamosi but it's worse Jan 17 03:23:19 using a 5 blade razor is no slower than a 1 Jan 17 03:23:36 where as slinging around 128 bits of data is dramatically slower (not just twice) than 64 Jan 17 03:23:50 Now you're being boring :P Jan 17 03:23:52 and of course the file data structures balloon Jan 17 03:24:08 each block had a bit in it that specifies the block if it matches the hardware it does nothing, if the endianess doesn't match zfs converts it... Jan 17 03:24:20 things like seek, stat, getdir, and related all get slower, pollute the caches more, have lower memory bandwidht, and higher memory overhead Jan 17 03:24:20 why not directly address the file system? Jan 17 03:24:41 a 64 bit address translates into a sector that is magically brought into RAM Jan 17 03:24:55 edwardo but endian problems aren't block related Jan 17 03:24:57 unused pages get flushed (:RU) Jan 17 03:25:03 LRU Jan 17 03:25:06 dukeofUrl welcome to linux and mmap Jan 17 03:25:23 cool Jan 17 03:25:25 impossible to do on zfs Jan 17 03:25:32 it was designed from the start to not be endian-specific Jan 17 03:25:37 because no cpu today can handle a 2^128 address space Jan 17 03:25:41 Well... Every modern filesystem has journals and that kind of stuff, so that's not Really "direct" Jan 17 03:25:52 edwardo right, but the hard part isn't the filesystem it's the data on the filesystem. Jan 17 03:26:17 oza it often is Jan 17 03:26:26 often on linux anwyays, only metadata is journaled Jan 17 03:26:37 you can journal both if ya want Jan 17 03:26:58 spikebik1: what is the address space for mmap? Jan 17 03:27:12 Read up on ZFS, sounds like you don't know about it yet Jan 17 03:27:14 the CPUs Jan 17 03:27:23 edwardo I know quite a bit about it actually Jan 17 03:27:23 How can you compare ? Jan 17 03:27:41 OK Jan 17 03:27:57 But you have not ever used it as you said ^ Jan 17 03:28:03 right Jan 17 03:28:10 I've never set off a nuke either Jan 17 03:28:27 doesn't mean I don't understand many aspects Jan 17 03:28:43 I've used it. My home folder on my school account rests on zfs :) Jan 17 03:28:47 I'm giving you a hard time because your going on about silly irrelevant marketing stuff Jan 17 03:28:55 that actually damages performance Jan 17 03:29:02 and saying nothing about the cooler parts of zfs Jan 17 03:29:08 http://src.opensolaris.org/source/xref/onnv/onnv-gate/usr/src/uts/common/fs/zfs/zfs_byteswap.c Hope this clears thing up then Jan 17 03:29:32 edwardo right Jan 17 03:29:47 so you can mount a non-native filesystem (a very common ability) Jan 17 03:30:08 but it does nothing to solve endian issues in the applications (which is where the real problem is) Jan 17 03:30:21 so all your data is unreadable Jan 17 03:30:29 but you can run ls... woohoo!!! Jan 17 03:31:26 iostat is not built to gives details of IO utilization on Linux software RIAD's Jan 17 03:31:45 of course sun marketing often lets little things like that get ignored Jan 17 03:32:28 You can't do roll backs Jan 17 03:32:55 OK its 4am in the uk now... Jan 17 03:32:57 :p Jan 17 03:33:27 er ummm the purpose of snapshots is to allow rollbacks Jan 17 03:33:37 Oh and it Checksum's all data Jan 17 03:33:42 and the purpose of transaction logs is to allow restoring partial transactions Jan 17 03:34:41 checksums are nice, I'd prefer it not be in the filesystem so it's not required, there's significant overhead in calculating them Jan 17 03:34:58 are the checksums per block or per file? Jan 17 03:37:31 I think neo1973 with IM should beat easily (with some nice software keyboard of course (like maybe hexinput), not qwerty on screen one): http://www.timesonline.co.uk/printFriendly/0,,1-2-1571664,00.html Jan 17 03:38:16 per block Jan 17 03:38:30 seems kinda strange Jan 17 03:38:37 the hardware already has a checksum Jan 17 03:39:07 so safer.... and slower. I can see making that compromise.... sometimes. Jan 17 03:39:17 a lot of overhead is solved by dynamic striping Jan 17 03:39:48 meta data is only created when needed Jan 17 03:39:58 Mate I have to go to sleep Jan 17 03:40:03 aloril: *complaints about lack of wlan* Jan 17 03:40:07 Are you around tomorrow ? Jan 17 03:40:20 so suddently writing 1 bit = reading an entire block from disk -> interface -> main memory, calculate checksum, then write checksum from cpu -> interface -> disk Jan 17 03:40:32 ozamosi: flat rate GPRS here ;-) Jan 17 03:41:33 aloril: thing is, I don't use my phone much. I got some nice start offerings, and I haven't paid a cent since. That was about 2 years ago. Paying $10-$30 a month for gprs is... :( Jan 17 03:42:15 (that's the flat rate prices I've heard here) Jan 17 03:43:00 But of course - IM (and IRC, if that's not included in IM) is probably what I'd use it for most either way. Jan 17 03:44:26 Night Jan 17 03:47:40 ozamosi: 10-15 EUR here I think, more for flat rate EDGE and 3D Jan 17 03:49:29 t-mobile here has something called mobile-web for $5.99 unlimited Jan 17 03:49:34 not sure exactly what it is though Jan 17 03:49:44 sounds like unlimited edge/gprs but not for a laptop Jan 17 03:59:50 I'm excited that there will be news friday Jan 17 04:01:36 hah, excellent Jan 17 04:01:38 http://www.epidauros.be/raid.jpg Jan 17 04:09:57 Maybe the news on friday will be that there will be more information next week? :D Jan 17 04:10:51 the news is.... "THERE IS NEWS COMING!!" Jan 17 04:10:56 :P Jan 17 04:34:21 hey when will the neo1973 be released Jan 17 04:35:42 We don't really know. I think the first phones should ship in February Jan 17 04:35:57 us side? Jan 17 04:36:08 But that'll probably be for developers Jan 17 04:36:10 Huh? Jan 17 04:36:26 meaning not uk Jan 17 04:36:38 but US Jan 17 04:36:59 Global, online ordering. Jan 17 04:37:08 ...and shipping. Jan 17 04:37:11 ok Jan 17 04:37:31 At least, that's what I've heard. Not all details are public yet. Jan 17 04:37:31 shame only for developers not for testers Jan 17 04:37:42 gotchya Jan 17 04:37:50 i see Jan 17 04:38:00 how much will it's cost ? Jan 17 04:38:11 Check back on friday - they're going to announce their roadmap then. Jan 17 04:38:17 pipit: $350 Jan 17 04:38:49 $350 is worth it for the fredom Jan 17 04:39:07 oops freedom sheesh Jan 17 04:39:13 It sure is :) Jan 17 04:39:17 rubber fingers lol Jan 17 04:39:43 what os will it use ? Jan 17 04:39:51 ozamosi : thx Jan 17 04:40:02 pipit: linux :) Jan 17 04:41:00 Linux my all time favorite Os Jan 17 04:41:46 the phone looks so juicy need to get my hands on one Jan 17 04:42:00 but with wifi Jan 17 04:42:11 the topic said no wifi Jan 17 04:42:18 oh Jan 17 04:42:22 sorry Jan 17 04:42:54 ok feature rich lol Jan 17 04:44:25 anyhow got my answer answered thx guys Jan 17 04:44:36 goodnight Jan 17 04:45:48 how openmoko compare to motorolla mottoming? Jan 17 04:49:39 ming has a camera, openmoko has a 640x480 screen Jan 17 04:49:56 and more importantly openmoko handles native coded apps ;) Jan 17 04:52:50 i see Jan 17 05:03:07 so there's all this talk of shipping, but I can't find a price for the phone anywhere... Jan 17 05:04:06 $350 is what I've seen Jan 17 05:06:06 k, thanks. This makes it atleast an interesting thought;) My contract on a CDMA network isn't up for another year, so maybe I'll be just in time for version 2 with wifi and multitouch and hopefully a more rectangular design:) Jan 17 05:29:04 cbpage er so does the ming Jan 17 05:29:31 spikebik1: well... He didn't say it didn't... Jan 17 05:30:03 he implied it Jan 17 05:30:19 x has A and Y has Z Jan 17 05:30:29 implies X doesn't have Z Jan 17 05:31:34 Sure he did. But he didn't Say so :) Jan 17 05:31:49 Sorry. I'll go to school now, and leave you alone :) Jan 17 05:38:55 ming has only 320x240 - i looked Jan 17 05:39:04 yeah Jan 17 05:39:14 openmoko kicks ass on ram and pixels Jan 17 05:39:18 and openness ;-) Jan 17 05:39:20 i heard moto was making people use java stuff Jan 17 05:39:21 :) Jan 17 05:39:44 making no Jan 17 05:39:55 ok Jan 17 05:39:55 but they are making it the path of least resistance Jan 17 05:40:02 there's an sdk then? cool Jan 17 05:40:17 and that makes sense that it's not linux specific/larger market Jan 17 05:40:28 and they are pushing for standards for thigns like talking to bluetooth and GPS Jan 17 05:40:44 there is a gcc cross compiler, and source to much of the user space aps Jan 17 05:40:46 (and kernel) Jan 17 05:41:26 but there's no great documentation afaik for writing native aps, and there is a fair amount for the j2me side Jan 17 05:42:54 ahhh ok Jan 17 05:43:03 not locked out then - just obscure ;) Jan 17 05:43:30 I'm hoping the openmoko gets a java setup where most existing (large number of) java aps work Jan 17 05:43:42 i think that could happen now that j2me's gpl'd Jan 17 05:44:00 I heard sun gpl'd one of the javas, I wasn't sure it was j2me specifically Jan 17 05:45:03 and the other thing I was worrying about is that motorola licensed the java acceleration for the arm chip Jan 17 05:45:13 and that fic/openmoko wouldn't Jan 17 05:45:28 and that the openmoko would end up with a way slow java compared to other similar cell phones Jan 17 05:45:34 no idea if that is actually true or not. Jan 17 05:46:05 definitely scary... not that c isn't a good fallback Jan 17 05:48:33 does the s3c2410 even have java accel? Jan 17 05:51:31 I thought it did Jan 17 05:51:38 but looking at the spec sheet I don't see it mentioned Jan 17 05:51:52 maybe I was thinking of the nokia 770 Jan 17 05:52:16 cbpage: java accell was mentioned as a feature of the next higher s3c* Jan 17 05:52:59 in any case Jan 17 05:53:18 I've heard that the chips with java acceleration often leave that aspect unused because it's expensive to license a JVM that uses it Jan 17 05:53:26 and I suspect the opensource j2me does not Jan 17 05:53:27 *nod* Jan 17 05:53:33 i bet arm licenses it out Jan 17 05:54:05 I'm hoping that java aps that work on random other cellphones can be made to work with the openmoko Jan 17 05:54:15 even if it's in a gross emulation mode that ignores most of the pixels Jan 17 05:54:37 since somewhere around zero of the cell phones out today have 480x640 Jan 17 05:54:39 perhaps - the problem is there's more than one version of said java apps to begin with Jan 17 05:55:02 true Jan 17 05:55:10 there are tweaks for the more popular phones Jan 17 05:55:24 I just want the openmoko to not be unusually incompatible with said code Jan 17 05:55:42 since there will only be 100's of openmoko phones in the near future and other phones are selling by the million Jan 17 05:58:37 I'm also scared that the sun j2me is unusable, and unrelated to the code running in most cellphones Jan 17 06:12:25 so ... the FIC smartphone that is supposed to come out soon (or might already be out and i am just living under a rock) what service providers will it be available for? Jan 17 06:16:05 It's not out. It's a good old unlocked, uncrippled, normal GSM phone. Jan 17 06:16:12 So, all, basicly Jan 17 06:17:34 thank god ... i will await its release, and then buy one Jan 17 06:17:37 not all Jan 17 06:17:39 but all GSM Jan 17 06:17:50 i'm on a GSM network :) Jan 17 06:19:18 only thing im a little worried about is GSM networks intentionally setting their networks so the neo wont connect Jan 17 06:20:20 i would throw the biggest fit any company has ever seen any customer throw Jan 17 06:20:50 because of applications that could appear for the neo that allow a customer to do something for free that the network believes should be a pay service Jan 17 06:21:05 they can't lock out by phone model iirc Jan 17 06:21:21 verizon can because of the ESN system, but that's us-CDMA Jan 17 06:22:12 cbpage: Isn't IMEI numbers given out in series for each manufactorer? Jan 17 06:22:21 um Jan 17 06:22:26 yeah but is it per model? Jan 17 06:22:28 unlocked phones are fairly common Jan 17 06:22:36 yeah they are :) Jan 17 06:22:46 and worst case you could switch carriers Jan 17 06:22:56 at least in the USA there is more than one gsm carrier to switch to Jan 17 06:23:07 especially since if you buy the phone you don't have to sign up for a 2 year contract Jan 17 06:24:01 i was thinking about (for a future neo model with videocalling) using simulated videocalling to create a data link between two neos, one at home acting as a gateway to the internet. Thus giving my neo an unlimited data connection (its $3/m for unlimited videocalling here atm) Jan 17 06:24:14 and as you can imagine, most phone companys would not like that Jan 17 06:24:50 well thanks for the info ... i will be watching for the release :) Jan 17 06:25:16 seems like video calling could well be lossless Jan 17 07:05:03 so now we have pre-announcements of announcements Jan 17 07:06:01 I'm hoping for early friday since he's in Taiwan :) Jan 17 07:16:18 aloril, :D Jan 17 07:16:36 CM, that's more like saturdayish :) Jan 17 07:18:20 xkr47: Why? They're like +8h compared to GMT Jan 17 07:19:26 So 10 where I am (Sweden) would be 16.00 or 17.00 in Taiwan Jan 17 07:19:37 (Don't know if they have any daylight savings time) Jan 17 07:20:31 ah right Jan 17 07:20:33 sorry Jan 17 07:20:38 just got to work *sleeping* Jan 17 07:21:02 Same here, np. I'm just impatient and curious about the announcement Jan 17 07:29:51 i wonder if preliminary specs of v2 and maybe even v3 will be included Jan 17 07:35:36 I'm guessing v2 will be mentioned, but it's just speculations of course Jan 17 07:38:59 was this on the announce list? Jan 17 07:39:36 Nothing on that one yet Jan 17 07:42:09 yeah seems sane that they will talk about v2 Jan 17 07:42:16 or maybe even cancel v1 Jan 17 07:42:31 naa... That I don't think Jan 17 07:42:43 I hope not, but I knwo the v2 hardware is relatively close Jan 17 07:42:53 i.e. happening in parallel not dependent on v1 being finished Jan 17 07:43:03 after all the hardware isn't linux specific and is used for a windows phone Jan 17 07:43:10 Yes, but the hw for v1 will be produced anyway Jan 17 07:43:23 Didn't they already have some big order for china or so? Jan 17 07:45:00 well at some point if there's another show stopper in the v1 then it might make sense to switch Jan 17 07:45:22 hmm looking at the number of people here in hte chat its quite a buzz , even if nothing is released .. that tells me markets can demand linux preshipped phones Jan 17 07:45:37 sure Jan 17 07:45:49 there's been some press, the iphone was great pr for openmoko Jan 17 07:45:56 validation of the design Jan 17 07:46:05 and a large contrast (completely closed vs completely open) Jan 17 07:53:55 xkr47: when I looked at LDO page at wikipedia it had marking speak about some website instead of actual its current LDO disambiguation page ;-) Jan 17 08:17:18 heh, wow. 128MB of sdram Jan 17 08:17:43 that's as much as olpc's xo laptops have Jan 17 08:17:54 compare screens too ;) Jan 17 08:17:56 yeah :) Jan 17 08:18:16 64mb flash is a bit tight though.. Jan 17 08:18:30 CM: yea, that's what i was thinking.. Jan 17 08:18:37 microsd should alleviate that a bit Jan 17 08:18:46 I know there sd, but what if i'd like to put some music on it? Jan 17 08:19:07 get flat rate gprs and build system that buffers just the next 10MB over it Jan 17 08:19:08 I'm having 950mb mp3's on my k750 now Jan 17 08:19:13 ;) Jan 17 08:19:28 With 3G flatrate that would work fine Jan 17 08:23:06 what's the cpu going to be? Jan 17 08:23:52 it looks like the samsung s3c2410 supports amm92x, amm1020, and amm1024 Jan 17 08:25:16 dilinger: ? Jan 17 08:25:19 oh, i see. assuming i'm looking at the right page, looks like an amm920t/arm926ejs clocked at 200mhz? Jan 17 08:25:41 dilinger: s3c2410 is cpu Jan 17 08:26:10 arm920t family iirc Jan 17 08:26:47 ok. i was looking at the s3c2410 board page Jan 17 08:27:12 neat, thanks Jan 17 08:46:37 * yacc wonders if anyone here got experience with sip based voip? Jan 17 08:52:04 http://englishrussia.com/images/iphone.jpg Jan 17 08:58:43 Tv: GPRS is a little bit slow. Typically mp3 streams have at least 128kbit/s => 16KB/s, and GPRS usually just fetches 5KB/s. So your buffer would run dry quite quickly :( Jan 17 09:03:02 hi all Jan 17 09:16:50 get battery powered usb disk -> plenty of space Jan 17 09:22:29 yacc: I've done som sip-based voip a few years ago. What about it? Jan 17 09:23:02 CM: I just wondered if I can connect to one account at sipgate from different DSL connections at the same time. Jan 17 09:23:25 CM: google-ing seems to confirm that, but also indicates that it's depends upon the provider. Jan 17 09:23:28 That should be fine Jan 17 09:23:33 Yes, exactly Jan 17 09:23:58 Wrote a sip-proxy for Ericsson as a part of my masters thesis Jan 17 09:24:56 CM: What exactly does a sip-proxy? Jan 17 09:26:11 hello all. Jan 17 09:27:08 yacc: Basically NAT:ing sip-calls Jan 17 09:27:40 Ok, so on the client side, we've got a SIP phone, then potentially a SIP-proxy, and what is on the other side? Jan 17 09:27:47 yacc, FYI there are (at least) 4 different types of SIP proxies Jan 17 09:28:10 We needed it to connect through the firewall to the 3G-GSN and to route the video calls, reroute them, clone streams and save all calls Jan 17 09:28:11 yacc, a sip phone, or another proxy or similar :) Jan 17 09:28:38 Ok, so what do provides like sipgate provide? Jan 17 09:29:10 I don't know what sipgate provides Jan 17 09:30:33 Well, they allow you to call out, but I'm trying to understand the different parts. Jan 17 09:30:59 call out to traditional phones. And call in from the traditional network. Jan 17 09:40:51 Now, I just find out if I can just cancel the ISDN service from DTAG, without endangering my DSL connection, *wonder* Jan 17 09:43:59 I have a question on shipping. When I buy my Neo1973, will it ship from Taiwan, or will Fic have a distributor here in Europe? Jan 17 09:44:13 I ask because of import taxes. Jan 17 09:44:19 yes to later Jan 17 09:45:29 ie.. there will be distributor in EU Jan 17 09:45:42 (according to 2 mails in mailing list) Jan 17 09:47:18 libervisco: Noticed that your article showed up on OSNews: http://osnews.com/story.php/16968/Forget-iPhone-Hail-OpenMoko-the-True-Revolution/ Jan 17 09:47:34 Some uninformed comments there though Jan 17 09:48:26 aloril: thanks, I unsubscribed from the mailing list due to lack of time to read it. Jan 17 10:40:47 12:09:19 < pedronis> on a mostly out of topic note, also Apple is going to be contributing to the llvm arm backend now Jan 17 10:40:51 12:09:33 < mwh> iPhone is arm, or something? Jan 17 10:40:53 12:09:33 < pedronis> I wonder why :) Jan 17 10:40:57 12:09:39 < pedronis> I think so Jan 17 10:41:48 cf. http://permalink.gmane.org/gmane.comp.compilers.llvm.devel/6142 Jan 17 10:51:16 uuu roadmap Jan 17 10:51:36 12:19:32 < pedronis> suppose so, it's interesting the overlap between the iPhone and the nokia 770 Jan 17 10:51:39 12:19:49 < pedronis> although the latter is not a phone and is less pricey Jan 17 10:51:47 12:18:21 < mwh> i guess "Rafael and Lauro" are the nokia people? Jan 17 10:52:54 openmoko uses arm as well, right? Jan 17 10:55:26 yes Jan 17 10:58:40 how good is gcc's arm backend? Jan 17 10:58:46 hrw|work: do you know? Jan 17 10:58:57 iirc good Jan 17 11:01:50 but then there is the question, why do nokia and apple resort to llvm? Jan 17 11:02:09 llvm? Jan 17 11:02:44 xorAxAx: I wouldn't make the assumption they chose it for a specific reason other than 'because' Jan 17 11:03:09 Stephmw: but that would be unwise economically Jan 17 11:03:32 why do you put 2x2 people on that architecture to complete the backend for a particular arch Jan 17 11:03:44 ... because they wanted to? Jan 17 11:03:51 Stephmw: yes, but why? :) Jan 17 11:04:04 xorAxAx: call it a hobby of the devs Jan 17 11:04:19 Stephmw: they are paid to do it Jan 17 11:04:28 its not a hobby Jan 17 11:05:05 xorAxAx: I work in a similar environment to these guys, and 'logic' and 'cost' < 'politics' and 'selective lobying' Jan 17 11:05:13 hrw|work: a system to run arch-independant code on many platforms, with JIT and optimsiations Jan 17 11:06:14 12:35:06 < pedronis> I think one issue id that apple was a bit unhappy with gcc on the ppc Jan 17 11:06:19 12:35:48 < pedronis> I think they want more direct control over their overall performance Jan 17 11:06:51 12:36:20 < pedronis> and getting gcc where you want it do be doesn't look the easiest thing os politics wise Jan 17 11:06:56 Stephmw: thats your point, right? :) Jan 17 11:08:47 xorAxAx: no, I really completely omitted the technical aspect - they're not as highly weighted as the internal politics of the company Jan 17 11:09:23 xorAxAx: you'll have to take it on faith :) Jan 17 11:09:32 xorAxAx: too many NDAs with my name on them Jan 17 11:09:37 yes, but internal politics may have realised that integration into gcc is harder than pushing stuff into llvm Jan 17 11:11:07 hi all Jan 17 11:11:26 xorAxAx: nokia is using gcc for their linux stuff Jan 17 11:11:55 koen: yeah, they have to because llvm is not ready for prime time yet in that context Jan 17 11:20:45 Hi ... I have a simple question: why would Neo1973 have USB 1.1 only? Jan 17 11:21:01 because usb2 would cost more Jan 17 11:21:26 the SoC that it uses probably has usb1.1 support built into it already Jan 17 11:21:54 they'll just be bringing it to the outside, unlike other phone manufacturers who would hide it Jan 17 11:22:18 sure ... I appreciate that ;-) Jan 17 11:22:51 another one ... what "early access" means? ... or ... when would I be able to buy one? Jan 17 11:24:32 it probably means people who are highly likely to develop stuff for it Jan 17 11:55:35 parag0n: ok, thanks! Jan 17 12:20:21 how does the 1973's screen size compare to a Treo 600? Jan 17 12:21:08 hi, do somebody know, how much costs post, send openmoko from FIC factory to europe union? Jan 17 12:21:42 the neo will be distributed from within the EU to EU countries, according to a post to the mailing list. Jan 17 12:22:52 i am going to wait until wifi is deployed in it Jan 17 12:23:59 Sencer: yes, but how much it will cost? Jan 17 12:24:12 it hasn't been announced Jan 17 12:25:07 about 300 $ Jan 17 12:25:59 the _device_ was said to cost 350 US$. But shipping etc. has not been announced. Jan 17 12:26:16 Sencer: ok, thanks Jan 17 12:27:01 I assume that there may be more information in the friday announcement Jan 17 12:33:41 Sencer: is that for the model without the V8? ;-) Jan 17 12:34:24 Sencer: has there been annouced there'll be a friday announcement? Jan 17 12:34:33 topic Jan 17 12:34:58 what Vegar said^^ Jan 17 12:35:28 ahh :) it was too long too show up entirely in irssi Jan 17 12:35:42 interesting:) Jan 17 12:35:51 *catch up on the ML* Jan 17 12:55:56 any rumors about the ML suggestion of giving buyers of Neo v1 a discount for buying v2, or will we have to wait until friday... ? Jan 17 12:56:49 it kind of seemed like sean mp found the idea intersting/considerable according to his reply... Jan 17 12:57:30 aevin: who do you suggest should carry the cost? Jan 17 12:57:51 i think it would be a great idea to get more devs for v1, avoiding too many to wait for v2 before buying Jan 17 12:58:27 Sencer: the v2 buyers that dont buy v1 Jan 17 12:58:39 aevin: I think it's much more sensible to simply sell the v1 device. I am sure there will still be enough developers interested in it, even if there is a v2 (which will undoubtedly be more expensive) Jan 17 12:59:09 aevin: So, the device should be made more expensive to the general public, so that developers that buy both devices can get it cheaper? Jan 17 13:00:47 Sencer: I/the customers dont know what FIC's margins are. I am not saying there should be a huge discount, but I think it's an interesting idea. At least it makes v1 more attractive. Jan 17 13:01:31 but , as you say, maybe they'll consider v1 more than attractive enough to get the attention of enough devs without subsidizing v2 for v1 buers Jan 17 13:01:36 *buyers Jan 17 13:02:41 Sencer: do you think FIC will sell v1 with ~ 0 margin, to make the foundation for future successes with community software for v2, v3, v4 etc? Jan 17 13:02:45 considering the hardware and the likely numbers, the v1 is already very cheap. IMHO. Jan 17 13:02:52 i doubt the current price is at cost Jan 17 13:02:55 aevin: No, I don't think so. Jan 17 13:03:51 sencer/buz/aevin: we're currently preparing an annoucement, which among others, addresses this Jan 17 13:04:06 just be patient for one or two more days until that announcement is out Jan 17 13:04:39 Sencer: yes, i think v1 is cheap too, but i guess some people is not planning to buy a new phone only after 6 months (or whatever) when the v2 comes out, and because of this, they rather wait for the v2 (or later) Jan 17 13:04:40 cool :) Jan 17 13:05:06 aevin: that doesn't sound like the geeks I know ^^ Jan 17 13:05:11 supposedly a moto q costs about 120$ to LaF0rge: speculating not allowed? Jan 17 13:06:13 (it's not like we go about telling people we know anything for fact ;) Jan 17 13:06:36 Sencer: maybe your right. if you're not geek enough to upgrade to v2, then you're considered that you probably wont contribute much by buying v1... ? Jan 17 13:06:58 aevin: even testers can help a lot Jan 17 13:07:10 buz: yes, I just wanted to speculate :) Jan 17 13:08:16 buz: true Jan 17 13:08:16 i had that very discussion with some kde devs a few days back Jan 17 13:08:17 they said that they gladly help users installing kde4 when they are genuinely interested in testing and reporting bugs Jan 17 13:08:20 what discussion? the value of testers? Jan 17 13:08:26 yes Jan 17 13:08:28 ah, okay:) Jan 17 13:09:02 i make my decision when i see the roadmap Jan 17 13:09:19 here's to hoping it will contain approximate hardware specs Jan 17 13:10:33 buz: The Moto Q cost 120$ to make? Do you remember where you learned/hear/read that? Jan 17 13:10:44 lemme google Jan 17 13:10:45 I know I will get both v1 and v2 :) .. just don't know when yet.. hehe (well february obviously..) Jan 17 13:11:04 http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=06/07/20/2336244 Jan 17 13:11:12 buz: thanks Jan 17 13:11:23 oh wait Jan 17 13:11:33 the Q is 150 the blackberry is about 120 Jan 17 13:11:37 hello Jan 17 13:11:38 still, both should be cheaper by now Jan 17 13:11:47 hi Ntemis Jan 17 13:11:52 :) Jan 17 13:11:59 some info please Jan 17 13:12:16 will not have wifi? Jan 17 13:12:23 see topic Jan 17 13:12:31 Topic for #openmoko: OpenMoko Developer Lounge | http://www.openmoko.com | Jan 17 13:12:31 http://lists.openmoko.org | Neo1973 ETA for early access: February 2007 | Wifi: Jan 17 13:12:34 i saw it Jan 17 13:12:34 No, Multitouch: No, Bluetooth: Yes | Direct-Sale World Wide | No Preorders yet Jan 17 13:12:40 | 2007-ROADMAP Announcement on Friday Jan 17 13:13:06 will be other version that will have those fitures? Jan 17 13:13:15 fituares Jan 17 13:13:28 of course... at some point Jan 17 13:13:47 i will whait for it then Jan 17 13:14:19 the phone is using the standard linux kernel or something? Jan 17 13:14:31 deb? or rpm? Jan 17 13:14:43 is there any platform known, that says there will never be a device with wifi for it? Jan 17 13:14:55 Sencer: C-64. Jan 17 13:14:59 palm os Jan 17 13:15:34 the kernel cant really handle it Jan 17 13:16:10 so not linux based just open sourced Jan 17 13:16:12 right Jan 17 13:16:27 sure its linux based Jan 17 13:16:42 buz: really? I remember reading some different. * a quick google later * http://209.85.135.104/search?q=cache:PEDBvcOfEVYJ:www.palmsource.com/press/2004/092804_cobalt.html+palm+os+wifi&hl=en&ct=clnk&cd=4 Jan 17 13:17:05 you are confusing what "it" points to Jan 17 13:17:06 cobalt was never released was it Jan 17 13:17:40 can the phone work glabally? Jan 17 13:17:45 globally Jan 17 13:17:54 sure Jan 17 13:17:59 quad-band gsm Jan 17 13:18:07 costs like shit to roam, though Jan 17 13:18:18 can it be shipped to cyprus? Jan 17 13:18:43 buz: I concede that point ^^ Jan 17 13:19:52 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cyprus Jan 17 13:20:06 see topic Jan 17 13:20:21 unless cypress isn't in 'the world' Jan 17 13:20:43 I Demand to have one shipped to my MoonBase Jan 17 13:20:44 ok thanks Jan 17 13:20:53 :0 Jan 17 13:20:57 you don't really want to start any political duscissions... *G* Jan 17 13:20:57 :) Jan 17 13:21:47 we excist in the world Jan 17 13:21:51 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:EU_location_CYP.png Jan 17 13:21:56 :) Jan 17 13:22:01 maybe small Jan 17 13:22:40 taiwanese company wouldnt mind Jan 17 13:22:45 taiwan doesnt exist according to some, either Jan 17 13:23:05 how much it will cost to buy that phone? Jan 17 13:23:12 Ntemis: not as small as malta ;) Jan 17 13:23:33 yes is smaller than malta Jan 17 13:23:48 we only have tha half of it Jan 17 13:23:56 the Jan 17 13:24:17 other one is occupied by turkish forces Jan 17 13:28:53 * xkr47 is collecting a wishlist.. it's hard to avoid becoming a moko addict already before I get the phone Jan 17 13:29:39 Uh huh Jan 17 13:30:43 does that mean like "right on" ?-) Jan 17 13:30:54 or more like "you're crazy" Jan 17 13:31:16 means keep talking... Jan 17 13:31:22 ... while we get a safe distance away Jan 17 13:32:48 Means "i got idle looking at wireless usb and wondering if i can keep a wifi dongle in my jacket while my phone is on my waist" Jan 17 13:34:03 I'm thinking it won't be feasible since wireless usb also uses 2.4ghz Jan 17 13:36:05 you can do that with bluetooth... Jan 17 13:36:49 yeah. is there a bluetooth to wifi bridge in the works? Jan 17 13:36:55 * Sketch is sitting on the train typing on a zaurus with a bluetooth CF card while his phone is in his pocket Jan 17 13:37:02 :) Jan 17 13:37:40 even if they are both 2.4ghz you can probably set one of them to use a different channel Jan 17 13:38:39 well. I'd have to set the wireless dongle to use the channel that the AP is on, and try to make the bridge use a different one. but it's moot since i can't seem to find a commercially available one. and that's what happens when i only read the headlines on slashdot Jan 17 13:40:19 now, if i could find a little device to connect to the municipal wifi and then pair with the phone over BT.. that would rule Jan 17 13:45:32 hmm.. interesting.. cryptophone makes their source available Jan 17 13:50:15 for review Jan 17 13:51:03 right Jan 17 13:52:24 <|Melkman|> lol, neo cryptophone... If only we can get to the digital speech path. Will be a bad day for Nah6 then though.. Jan 17 13:54:58 the cryptophone folks will probably make a package for openmoko if they see a few copies being used^H^H^H^H reviewed on neo1973s Jan 17 13:59:49 :) Jan 17 14:01:06 morning Jan 17 14:02:16 Morning? Where are you ;-) Erm, good morning, too :) Jan 17 14:02:39 LaF0rge: morning. Back to Frankfurt I had 3 out of 4 hours GPRS w/ BASE without too many connections droppings. was good at least for ksirc and lynx. Jan 17 14:02:47 meyerm: local time is irrelevant :) Jan 17 14:02:48 ~ugt Jan 17 14:02:50 from memory, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Jan 17 14:02:54 mickeyl: OK, accepted ;) Jan 17 14:03:17 apt: :-D Jan 17 14:03:19 methinks -d is for debugging, makes the server more verbosewith each -d Jan 17 14:04:07 mickeyl: and mail :) Jan 17 14:04:15 yeah Jan 17 14:06:30 mickeyl: ah, thta gprs experience sounds more like the one i usually have Jan 17 14:23:14 ~summon announcement Jan 17 14:23:15 ;D Jan 17 14:23:17 apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing announcement's coordinates Jan 17 14:25:41 hehehe Jan 17 14:38:22 Neo1973 keeps getting more and more press :-D Jan 17 14:38:39 yeah, it's unbelievable Jan 17 14:39:40 very exciting Jan 17 14:40:33 Now, if only we had a few pictures of the real thing :-) Jan 17 14:40:40 some new articles? url? Jan 17 14:40:53 true, or the source so we can take a peak of how far long it is ;) Jan 17 14:41:03 http://www.gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/openmoko-smartphone-did-they-have-a-time-machine-or-what-229243.php Jan 17 14:41:13 same ol same ol Jan 17 14:41:19 but more press is a good thing :) Jan 17 14:41:31 now that's a cool article Jan 17 14:41:41 Has anybody of the devs here (Michael? :-) ) already some experience with syncing with kdepim-programs? Especially my adressbook always got "damaged" (multiple entries etc.) when syncing between KDE/Palm/Phone/Zaurus... Jan 17 14:41:42 title, at least Jan 17 14:42:25 yea, the article is your basic gadget blog affair though Jan 17 14:42:26 i'm afraid I am a no-PIM guy. I really want to use PIM apps on a mobile device, but I didn't find any good on Linux-based PDAs yet. I'm sure OpenMoko will change that. Jan 17 14:42:54 mickeyl: hopefully! :) Jan 17 14:43:41 mickeyl: will it be possible to create iphone like theme for openmoko? Jan 17 14:43:59 hrw|work: is it possible to be sued by apple ;) Jan 17 14:44:33 Zer0Her0_: what if I will create theme and does not provide it for other people? :D Jan 17 14:45:26 hrw|work: anything is possible, however changing the theme won't be possible without a) a good designer submitting lots of high quality images, b) touching the code. don't tell me about gtkrc.. Gtk+'s theming capabilities are not perfect Jan 17 14:45:36 hrw|work: morning Jan 17 14:45:48 hrw|work: true Jan 17 14:46:03 mickeyl: I know what you think about gtkrc ;D Jan 17 14:46:05 hi prpplague Jan 17 14:49:48 hmm 163 people in the channel Jan 17 14:50:07 mickem: Time to reach >=200 Jan 17 14:50:10 ya Jan 17 14:50:16 more then olpc and almost as many as maemo ;) Jan 17 14:50:28 Perhaps after the announcement on friday. ;) Jan 17 14:50:38 or less ;) Jan 17 14:50:45 ups Jan 17 14:50:58 * stefan_schmidt hopes mickeyl jokes Jan 17 14:50:59 no, just kidding. the announcement contains mostly positive news Jan 17 14:51:07 good Jan 17 14:51:11 Mostly, hmm.. Jan 17 14:51:17 * CM is guessing further delays Jan 17 14:51:31 mickeyl: Can I get a milk in my Lunchbox? ;) Jan 17 14:51:53 stefan_schmidt: i'm afraid it's already fully loaded. there's not much more space for food Jan 17 14:52:20 mickeyl: It's ok, when the stuff is better then food. :) Jan 17 14:52:31 it is Jan 17 14:52:38 :) Jan 17 14:52:41 * mickeyl seen picture of lunchbox on sunday Jan 17 14:52:46 real picture, no rendering Jan 17 14:52:47 :) Jan 17 14:52:49 heh Jan 17 14:54:31 mickeyl: Nice case? /me loves nice cases. :) Jan 17 14:54:54 * CM is happy with a brown box as long as there's a Neo in it Jan 17 14:54:54 mickeyl: does it include jtag cable? Jan 17 14:55:59 who wants to breakfast a jtag cable? ;) Jan 17 14:56:25 mickeyl: it can be sweet Jan 17 14:57:18 hehe Jan 17 14:57:33 yeah, hackers will probably have a usage for jtag Jan 17 14:59:46 jtag shiny Jan 17 15:01:10 it also means that should we accidentally brick our devices we can unbrick it Jan 17 15:01:11 heh Jan 17 15:03:19 hehe, yea, i'll definetly be replacing the bootload with apex, not real fond of uboot Jan 17 15:10:52 meyerm: addressbook gets damaged because opensync's kdepim module is totally broken Jan 17 15:11:34 (been there, will be a while until i touch that thing again) Jan 17 15:12:01 the p900, as i figured out after that, actually can send all contacts as a giant VCF file Jan 17 15:12:03 moko should do that too Jan 17 15:12:12 (over bluetooth that is) Jan 17 15:12:17 buz: I worked with kpilot, kmobiletools, later kitchensync... a mess ;-). But I hope everything gets better with KDE 4 Jan 17 15:12:43 kdepim suxx when it comes to syncing Jan 17 15:12:58 it does not know such thing as syncing at all Jan 17 15:13:01 i think opensync is not much related to kde Jan 17 15:13:04 There is a new kitchensync Jan 17 15:13:16 yes newest kitchensync is using opensync Jan 17 15:13:30 now i hope akonadi might eventually end up on a phone... Jan 17 15:13:40 buz: it suxx less Jan 17 15:13:43 but still suxx Jan 17 15:13:51 definitely Jan 17 15:13:53 I synced kdepim <> k750i phone Jan 17 15:13:55 now at least it deletes data Jan 17 15:14:04 (even such it shouldnt) Jan 17 15:14:10 then I removed 200 EMPTY contacts from phone BY HAND Jan 17 15:14:16 which may or may not be more than before when it didnt do anything at all Jan 17 15:15:07 Hmm... akonadi directly on the phone. That sounds interesting. Jan 17 15:15:34 not bloody likely to happen at the moment Jan 17 15:15:39 needs qt on the phone first Jan 17 15:15:50 besides i dont think akonadi is anywhere like ready Jan 17 15:15:55 records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 165 <1h ago Jan 17 15:16:46 aloril: ? Jan 17 15:17:12 ppl in the channel I guess Jan 17 15:17:13 ; * Jan 17 15:17:40 * buz curses his choice of lectures Jan 17 15:18:06 As soon as that announcement is out I'll try to spread the news more Jan 17 15:18:10 at this rate, in 2094 every earth creature will be sitting in this channel. Twice. Jan 17 15:18:16 Hehe Jan 17 15:19:04 buz: akonadi is really dependant on QT? I _thought_ (<- = no clue ;-) ) it is independant so it can be included into other software. Jan 17 15:19:29 It's Qt not QT Jan 17 15:19:52 i'd be surprised if it didnt at least require qt, if not even kdelibs Jan 17 15:19:56 could be wrong tho Jan 17 15:20:43 There's no reason Qt couldn't run on the openmoko is there? Jan 17 15:22:19 no reason at all Jan 17 15:22:29 it just isn't the default widgetset Jan 17 15:23:24 Qt is split up anyway, you don't have to install the gui stuff Jan 17 15:24:43 no reason besides ram and storage consumption Jan 17 15:24:52 and possible gtk zealotry of course Jan 17 15:29:09 and license Jan 17 15:29:48 is there still a license issue with QT? Jan 17 15:30:55 closed source program need to play for license ;-) Jan 17 15:30:59 commercial stuff using QT need to pay Jan 17 15:33:17 fyi: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/16/1-in-8-blokes-would-swap-their-lady-for-a-must-have-gadget/ Jan 17 15:33:26 I wonder what the rate is in this channel currently Jan 17 15:34:30 that would have to be a lot more than a frigging hdtv Jan 17 15:34:37 think 50ft yacht maybe Jan 17 15:34:56 which then in turn one can use to get new girls Jan 17 15:35:08 And they call this thing comparable? I bet it doesn't even connect to Itunes. (*grin*) Just joking. Hello everyone Jan 17 15:35:13 ^^ Jan 17 15:35:54 thank god it needs no itunes Jan 17 15:37:08 I really like that this thing is suppose to have GPS but that it's missing 802.11b/g is definitely a downer. Jan 17 15:37:30 that new iProduct is supposed to be totally cool. I wonder what it'll actually do. Jan 17 15:37:40 ROOOOOFL Jan 17 15:38:42 The iPhone's most important feature - Jan 17 15:38:45 steve has shown that operating a cult is not only very lucrative (we knew that for a while) but also very hip Jan 17 15:38:51 is that it protects users from independent programmers. Jan 17 15:39:32 I'm very sad that Cisco lost it's TM on iPhone. I would have loved to have seen the battle. Jan 17 15:39:42 Is Steve into Scientology ....He runs Apple like a Scientologist Jan 17 15:40:47 Can someone tell me what the data rate is with Bt 2.0 EDR? Jan 17 15:41:01 Remowylliams: 3.0Mbps raw, 2.1Mbps usefull Jan 17 15:42:09 Hmm well that is enough for a bt video camera if one ever were put together. Jan 17 15:43:15 the iPhone needs a cable to sync with iTunes Jan 17 15:43:19 USB 1.1 though in this day an age. that's not a fun thing. Jan 17 15:43:28 how lame Jan 17 15:44:16 Music Gremlin might be ugly but at least it can do a wi-fi music store Jan 17 15:44:25 and transfers Jan 17 15:44:37 Looks like I'm going to have to go back to the Nokia 880 Jan 17 15:45:12 http://www.musicgremlin.com/ Jan 17 15:45:33 Remowylliams: well, everybody has his special needs. I for one only would like to see EDGE support and would be totally happy. Other need WLAN or USB 2. Would be to expensive to implement everything I guess. :-( Jan 17 15:45:53 OOPs that's the N800 Jan 17 15:45:57 and the Neo is a 1st generation device Jan 17 15:46:14 Matt_H: 2nd with EDGE I hope ;-) Jan 17 15:46:25 why edge Jan 17 15:46:39 Why EDGE and not 3G or something? Jan 17 15:46:52 3G or 4G Jan 17 15:46:53 Maybe I am confusing the things. Jan 17 15:47:03 time to market and cost Jan 17 15:47:12 Matt_H: Why not? ;-) No, the reason is I need some mobile data-communication and EDGE is available everywhere in Germany. UMTS not :-( Jan 17 15:47:19 plus the majority of neos I'm guessing will go to china Jan 17 15:47:34 and who knows if the market there would support 3G Jan 17 15:47:48 asian markets spport plenty of 3g Jan 17 15:47:57 Matt_H: And EDGE is fast enough for "normal" working, UMTS would be nice but is a feature - not a must-have for me Jan 17 15:48:44 *sigh* But I know myself... It will be hard to not buy a 1st gen. Neo ;) Jan 17 15:48:54 multitouch is what I would like to see, at least in hardware (still hoping it actually is in v1 some way even without any software) Jan 17 15:49:21 A dialogue a few hundred years ago: Dude A: Look, the people over in that country started a revolution, they're gonna build the first democracy. Dude B: Man, look, they use pitchforks, that like, so lame. I would only take part if they used at least slingshots. Dude: No democracy for me. I am waiting for the guys with the trebuchets. It's like, sooo necesary Jan 17 15:49:22 * aloril won't wait for v2, that would be long time without open phone Jan 17 15:49:30 and wi-fi but bluetooth solutions might fix that Jan 17 15:50:29 aloril: Yeah, I have the same problem ;) Jan 17 15:50:59 Yeesh.. the N800 can't browse the web for long. 3 hrs. Jan 17 15:51:19 or decent wi-fi drivers from vendors might be better Jan 17 15:51:48 meyerm: GPRS is available everywhere in germany, not EDGE. Jan 17 15:53:52 Sencer: T-Mobile is currently upgrading their network so they want to be everywhere within this year. The other are starting. Jan 17 15:54:09 Sencer: So yes, you're right. It's not yet available everywhere. But soon :-) Jan 17 15:55:16 Now if they had 802.11b/g and kiax running on the thing. That could be very sweet. Jan 17 15:55:32 Remowylliams: Would drain the battery too fast ;) Jan 17 15:55:57 I am waiting for an openmoko device that has 1600x1200, and runs on x86 hardware. Jan 17 15:56:22 with support for pciexpress, of course Jan 17 15:56:32 you want a UMPC Jan 17 15:56:35 Sencer: it's waiting inclusion of its V12 power source Jan 17 15:56:39 not a phone Jan 17 15:56:39 Sencer: Must Q4 run on it? Or ist Q3 ok? *g* Jan 17 15:56:41 meyerm: Yes but you could get at least a few hours out of it. And you wouldn't need a cell account. Jan 17 15:56:44 good wearable display would be nice Jan 17 15:58:29 Remowylliams: The "no cell account"-argument is an interesting one when getting into a foreign country. (I still don't want WLAN but can really see your point and think this is a very good reason to want some WLAN.) Jan 17 15:59:13 WLAN would also rule cause of municipal wifi here Jan 17 16:00:41 Considering the ubiquity of open wireless hotspots. I for one have a Asterisk server, and it would make being able to keep in touch less spontaneous than having a cell but savings on cell costs would be huge. Jan 17 16:01:45 yeah.. and even buying access to the hotspot chains here would cost a hell of a lot less than my usual gprs usage patterns Jan 17 16:01:47 Remowylliams: Until wifi is truly ubiquitous, you need to fall back to a cell account, so how much are you really saving? Jan 17 16:03:07 jjazz: Considering that I can drive almost anywhere in town and find a signal .. Considering how badly Cell companies bill? I"d say I've saved about 300.00 so far. Jan 17 16:03:22 the hardware will evolve over time anyhow, it's the least interesting aspect of openmoko. I am amazed at how short-sighted all the interest seems to be. It's the platform that matters. There's really something starting here. And everybody is so fixated on little nitpicks Jan 17 16:03:35 Remowylliams: You must use your phone a lot. Jan 17 16:03:40 jjazz: And if I'm not connected to the server, it just goes to voice mail for incoming calls Jan 17 16:03:46 for v2 would be nice if chip supported voice and grps at same time (GPRS A : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_A_GPRS_Phones) Jan 17 16:04:02 jjazz: How do you figure? Jan 17 16:04:43 Remowylliams: I figure you've managed to cut your voice plan minutes quite a bit, which implies that you use a lot of minutes. Jan 17 16:04:53 Sencer: yup, it already has *the* most important feature: source code (and no other has it as far as I know) Jan 17 16:05:45 I am telling you, if they release v2 without pokemon face-covers this whole thing is going to bust. Jan 17 16:06:03 they have to respond to the market Jan 17 16:06:36 jjazz: I don't know many people who have a cell account for less than 25.00/month. But back when I did have a cell for some 4 years I averaged 6 Minutes a month. Jan 17 16:06:56 Sencer: Well, we'll see if the market will honor the openess. To be honest, I don't think so. Only through the availability of many great applications (our job ;-) ) Jan 17 16:06:59 Remowylliams: So you really don't talk on the cell phone much at all. Jan 17 16:11:17 jjazz: Nope I don't. However in the US it's getting really hard to find pay phones. So it was that driving to work one day, a coolant hose burst on my engine, and I pulled into a parts store. They weren't gong to open for an hour, but that would make me late for work. That's when I realized I could call and opened my laptop and phoned home as it were. :) (well office) Just would have been nicer if it could have been a pda or something. Jan 17 16:11:53 Remowylliams: they removed _all_ payphones in finland in july Jan 17 16:12:05 Remowylliams: Well, I'm glad you found something that works for you. Wifi coverage in NYC isn't very good, so I need the cell network. Jan 17 16:13:04 Tv: Hey, the nordic states are modern. Doesn't everybody there have some kind of mobile phone. I read sth. above 96% (but don't ask 96% of what :-p ). Jan 17 16:13:13 jjazz: I can believe that. All the good wifi is 30 Stories up. Jan 17 16:14:07 Remowylliams: I run an open access point on the 2nd floor of a major street. It gets sporadic use. My office runs an open access point 17 floors up. Nobody's ever mentioned it getting used except by our guests. Jan 17 16:16:00 meyerm: there are more mobile phone accounts than people here ;) Jan 17 16:16:17 counting physical phones is harder, as people throw away older ones at unknown rates Jan 17 16:16:22 All in all that's my primary reason for wanting wifi. Edge and 3g and all can of course carry me to my server. But that still requires a data account and around here that's 59.99+ Billing hoseness, taxes etc. Jan 17 16:28:46 aloril: I just read your message about GPRS class A. Do you know if at least some "incoming call notification" is possible when beeing online? Jan 17 16:31:15 * koen thwaps mickeyl and LaF0rge with the DPI cluebat Jan 17 16:33:38 * mickeyl ignores the hurt for now since they are more pressuring things Jan 17 16:34:55 meyerm: umm.. I would except it to work like other phones: switch to voice when answering and suspend GPRS (but I don't have Neo1973 so I don't know of course) Jan 17 16:36:02 aloril: OK, thx Jan 17 16:36:24 koen: attach patch to OE .dev into thread ;D Jan 17 16:36:54 hrw|work: they are using the poky fork of xserver-common, xserver-kdrive-common Jan 17 16:37:15 which is, ehm..... Jan 17 16:37:17 'old' Jan 17 16:37:19 so you can answer when using GPRS but you can't use GPRS while GSM is active, GRPS usage will continue after you stop talking (and if its short call, then things should continue OK) Jan 17 16:38:19 koen: I was tempted to censor that line ;) Jan 17 16:54:48 ~summon roadmap Jan 17 16:54:49 apt takes out 20 clean, identical-looking phones, some extra hands, and pretends to be a telemarketer for a large corporation, so he gets delivered a phonelist containing roadmap's coordinates Jan 17 16:55:24 maybe we should try with human sacrifices instead Jan 17 16:56:37 * meyerm hides... Jan 17 16:57:09 * bhima pulls meyerm out and ties him/her down to the keyboard to answer questions. Jan 17 16:57:51 * meyerm doesn't understand english Jan 17 16:58:50 Ich kann Google verwenden, um Englisch in Deutschen zu C Will linux CPU actually be operating all the time on the device, or will it go to sleep until some event happens? Jan 17 17:00:09 (ie: does it have dyntick, like the Nokia 770? :) Jan 17 17:00:27 does nokia stands behind openmoko? Jan 17 17:01:06 I'd be very, very surprised to see Nokia involved. But I don't have any inside info. Jan 17 17:07:54 i ask, because i have just found that info (no polish blog, so a can give a link), that behind openmoko stands a large group of telecom companies including nokia Jan 17 17:09:03 Hmm. Do they clarify what they mean by "behind" and "stands"? Jan 17 17:09:51 nope. but i'll ask for that. Jan 17 17:11:13 ciastek: afaik, only FIC is involved. Nokia have developed Maemo, and openmoko benefits hugely from that, but that's it, afaik Jan 17 17:12:29 bhima: good afternoon, mister Flaherty Jan 17 17:12:57 a lot of people talks about openmoko last days.. its because iphone i think :] Jan 17 17:14:02 * bhima waves at Koen Bey. Jan 17 17:15:34 I wonder if the iPhone's touch screen algorithms are part of the OS, or are part of the firmware in the display. I'm _guessing_ the former, based on complexity. I'd tend to prefer the latter, since it may make alternate OSs easier. Jan 17 17:16:53 hello Jan 17 17:20:05 almost certainly both Jan 17 17:20:09 bhima: But you will have to pay the full 600$ nonetheless. Better buy a v1 and then a v2 Neo ;) Jan 17 17:20:28 hardware hasnt provided the output data before Jan 17 17:20:39 and software has never been written before to parse it Jan 17 17:20:42 meyerm: I don't like tryihng to use my fingers on stylus-optimized displays before. Jan 17 17:21:01 Wow. My english sucks this morning. Jan 17 17:21:39 bhima: Hey, mine sucks the whole day :) Jan 17 17:21:43 The touch screen and the size of the hardware are very nice, IMHO. Jan 17 17:21:47 bhima: The Neo isn't going to come with a stylus. So usually, you'll be using your finger. Jan 17 17:22:16 jjazz: How well does it work with your finger? I've used fingers on every touch screen I've owned. :) Jan 17 17:22:48 does anyone have any learning recommends for a noob interested in developing on the openmoko ?? Jan 17 17:22:58 learn gtk Jan 17 17:23:03 bhima: Dunno. I haven't held one. But it's finger-oriented, so I imagine it will accomodate normal-sized fingers. Thankfully, I don't have fat hands. Jan 17 17:23:38 gn4v3: Familiarize yourself with openembedded Jan 17 17:23:45 jjazz: I'm refering more to the pressure rather than the size. My newton, for example, requires a fair amount of pressure. You can have your wrist touching the display while you write. Jan 17 17:23:54 openembedded is more of a package management suite, right? Jan 17 17:24:12 You _need_ a fingernail. Some touch screens have worked with very mild finger pressure, but most have been inbetween. Jan 17 17:24:39 gn4v3: That's not how I think of it at all. Take a look at openembedded.org Jan 17 17:24:42 oh my, a cant find url of openmoko wiki. can you give me plese? Jan 17 17:24:50 bhima: Ah. Yes, I see that distinction. Jan 17 17:25:14 jjazz: ok, i will , thx Jan 17 17:25:26 gn4v3: no, it's a build system Jan 17 17:25:28 ciastek: There's no official wiki that I'm aware of. Jan 17 17:25:37 jjazz: Also, apparently apple played around a lot with surface texture. Since they're using a capacitive sensor, they can play with that independent of the rest of the touch screen assembly. Jan 17 17:25:51 jjazz, thank you Jan 17 17:26:39 ciastek: There's a couple unofficial ones, but I don't know their URLs. Jan 17 17:27:28 bhima: Yeah, they say they did something special with the glass and the sensors. Hopefully whatever improvements Apple made will filter out to other devices. Jan 17 17:28:03 jjazz, thank you. a found one at http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ and this is the one i look for Jan 17 17:28:28 ciastek: Thanks for telling me where it is. :) Jan 17 17:28:29 jjazz: I'm not that optimistic. Obvious things like, "Don't make the controls too small to easily press with a stylus" haven't reached many handheld touch screen devices. Jan 17 17:30:25 bhima: I tend to be optimistic. Technology has a way of making its way around. If Apple can make a ton of money licensing these small improvements, they will. And if these are the improvements that drive customer choice, some smart company will catch on. Jan 17 17:30:54 not sure Jan 17 17:31:02 apple doesnt seem to be an entirely rational company Jan 17 17:31:24 buz: They just have a very unique business model and marketing machine. Jan 17 17:31:28 openmoko presentation says, that 'k' is tribute to all hackers that build software that drives innovation into openmoko. is it 'k' as "kde", or rather another 'k'? :) Jan 17 17:31:50 yeah their business model revolves around "MIIIIIIINE!" Jan 17 17:31:58 :D Jan 17 17:32:04 I'm not aware of any companies that _are_ entirely rational. Jan 17 17:32:10 buz: Most models do. Jan 17 17:32:15 DEC's business model was "Our technology is better." Jan 17 17:32:20 See where they are now? :( Jan 17 17:32:31 most models revolve around "now how can we make the most money" Jan 17 17:33:14 The thing I like about Apple is that they seem to genuinely put effort into making their products not suck. They don't always succeed, but they try. Jan 17 17:33:29 yes but they are very stubborn at it Jan 17 17:33:32 (Other than the Finder in OSX. I think Jobs must have a personal grudge against the Finder) Jan 17 17:33:43 why cant i buy a laptop with two mouse buttons? Jan 17 17:34:00 and where is the 12" 1.5kg macbook pro Jan 17 17:34:00 apples tech is "turn our customers into rabid lunatics" and "be a better cult" Jan 17 17:34:06 i fucking hate apple Jan 17 17:34:11 iDepravity Jan 17 17:34:33 buz: I don't know. Please let me know when you find them, because I want them too. Jan 17 17:35:07 see apple is not rational Jan 17 17:35:14 they would clearly make money from selling a subnotebook Jan 17 17:35:15 but no Jan 17 17:36:09 My first PowerBook had two trackball buttons. Jan 17 17:36:31 * dilinger laughs Jan 17 17:36:48 remotes are coming with trackballs and touchpads now Jan 17 17:36:48 iDepravity would be a great product name Jan 17 17:36:58 iCult Jan 17 17:37:21 google shows three hits for iDepravity. Jan 17 17:37:27 I think they're all OCR mistakes. Jan 17 17:39:41 damn Jan 17 17:39:47 oh if htey're OCR mistakes its ok Jan 17 17:40:06 If you can get one-click access to bookmarks, AJAX and/or flash are going to be used a lot for apps on the iPhone, I'm guessing. Jan 17 17:41:04 you know, i'd _mcuh_ rather have my apps _on_ my phone, rather than access them via my phone Jan 17 17:41:08 the data fees are a lot less Jan 17 17:41:50 myren: I totally agree. But I have an unlimited data plan, and need to select from the devices that people have decided to make... Jan 17 17:42:11 Also, I'm hoping I can hack an HTTP server into it and server my apps on localhost. Jan 17 17:44:17 good luck Jan 17 17:44:20 its a rather big risk to take Jan 17 17:44:33 I'm still thinking of combining a gumstix, quad-band GPRS CF card, and EVDO CF card, into one box. Jan 17 17:44:37 $600 for a phone that may not ever run a native program Jan 17 17:44:44 now _that_ is a damned good idea Jan 17 17:44:57 sounds like PITA Jan 17 17:44:59 can you break two CF off of a gumstix? Jan 17 17:45:02 I want simultaneous voice and data. Jan 17 17:45:49 myren: I suspect that the code to make, say, a PIC or similar convert CF to serial isn't that hard. Haven't read through the linux or *BSD PCMCIA driver code in awhile though. Jan 17 17:45:53 first thing I want is a local webcache ;-P Jan 17 17:46:21 When I'm talking on the phone, I want to be able to do data stuff. Jan 17 17:46:51 When an incoming call happens, I want to know the telco of the person, I want to google their phone number, look it up, and know who they are and why they are calling me. Jan 17 17:47:48 i hope your friends are patient Jan 17 17:49:30 myren: I want that to happen automatically. Jan 17 17:50:55 www.freepenguin.135.it Jan 17 17:51:01 I'm trying to decide on what wiki software to install. Anybody know which one(s) will let me easily embed an image? Specifically, I want to select an image on my hard drive and upload and insert it, rather than having to upload somewhere else. Jan 17 17:55:32 bhima, i use pmwiki, because its very easy to understand how it works. and yes, you can do such things with images. Jan 17 17:56:11 ciastek: How easy is it to secure it? Jan 17 17:56:51 bhima, i dont know, sorry Jan 17 17:58:31 bhima: mediawiki :) Jan 17 17:58:46 bhima: and while the incoming call is not acecpted, even a GPRS Class B phone can still use google Jan 17 18:00:59 LaF0rge: That's what I thought, I wasn't sure. But if it's slow, I want to be able to answer them with some info, and wait for the rest. Jan 17 18:05:48 jjazz: are you sure Neo won't come with a stylus? Jan 17 18:06:04 it will come with a stylus. what kind of question ;) Jan 17 18:06:33 Buffet: I asked Sean in December. He said no stylus. Jan 17 18:07:02 that must be some misunderstanding. Jan 17 18:07:45 it was mentioned on the mailing list that it does indeed come with one Jan 17 18:07:46 LaF0rge: Fair enough. It was a simple, striaghtforward question, but perhaps I misheard. Jan 17 18:08:13 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000519.html Jan 17 18:08:47 * jjazz has a distinct recollection of Sean miming using his fingers instead of a stylus. :P Jan 17 18:09:43 But I prefer a stylus, so I wouldn't mind being wrong. :) Jan 17 18:10:10 LaF0rge: ugh, moinmoin! Jan 17 18:10:39 instead of mediawiki :) Jan 17 18:14:43 hm.. so the software isnt minded on using fingers? Jan 17 18:17:08 ha Jan 17 18:17:14 i was just look at that web page via another route Jan 17 18:17:25 so it really is only a driver change Jan 17 18:18:06 for multi touch Jan 17 18:18:47 jjazz: apparently it has a stylus, but some apps designed for finger use Jan 17 18:19:05 benJIman: Ah, that explains it. Thanks. Jan 17 18:19:05 cying: X doesn't support multiple pointers afaik, and probably neither does gtk Jan 17 18:19:18 What is only a driver change for multi-touch? Jan 17 18:19:36 Standard touch screens are physically incapable of handling multi-touch. Jan 17 18:19:42 benJIman: well but if you were to truly start over, you could take advantage of it Jan 17 18:20:21 benJIman: the UI toolkits need to be rethought to successfully compete with iphone Jan 17 18:20:32 gtk / X isn't going to be enough Jan 17 18:21:07 I don't know that much about the X event handling system, but I think that you could hack multi-touch in by passing pointer events with more data than just clicks. Jan 17 18:21:21 If I do the "pinch", that's a "zoom in" event at a particular screenlocation. Jan 17 18:21:30 bhima: according to the web page, they're talking to the touch screen vendor, so they think it may be at least possible for the hardware to do multi touch Jan 17 18:21:56 indeed Jan 17 18:22:24 bhima: but to get the type of interactivity and sexiness from iphone, we'll need a new ui engine Jan 17 18:22:26 cying: interesting. Most resistive touch screens do something like average the two points... Jan 17 18:22:39 cying: I totally agree. Jan 17 18:22:40 bhima: that's what i figured too... Jan 17 18:25:07 * Stephmw sits back and enjoys the popcorn Jan 17 18:26:07 is there a graphics chip in the neo? Jan 17 18:28:33 cying not really Jan 17 18:28:49 I wonder how good you can get on the neo. It would be a mistake to make a sexy UI that was too slow. Jan 17 18:29:00 indeed Jan 17 18:29:22 I don't think that a resistive touch screen will ever be responsive enough for the "spinning list" type gesture. Jan 17 18:29:25 I suspect iphone users may wish for less sexiness after the first month Jan 17 18:29:48 spikebik1: I'll let you know in July. :) Jan 17 18:29:50 bhima: talking of too slow - have you _seen_ the iphone keynote bits? the UI is sluggish Jan 17 18:29:51 there are desktop environments for linux/X that give windows/lists weight/momentum Jan 17 18:29:55 alpha blending Jan 17 18:29:57 anti-aliasing Jan 17 18:29:59 etc. Jan 17 18:30:06 graphics can be pretty good with the right base engine Jan 17 18:30:14 i've built a couple for openwave's mobile phone teams Jan 17 18:30:22 the s3c2410 is slow Jan 17 18:30:24 seems like mostly eyecandy that is none to cheap on power Jan 17 18:30:27 and there are some open source ones that can work on pretty weak ARMs Jan 17 18:30:43 seems like a bit less candy could be much more mean... Jan 17 18:30:46 er lean Jan 17 18:30:59 SE has the right idea on its Flash UIs Jan 17 18:31:00 I think that one of the big challenges is making sure you don't solve more problems than you need to - making sure you take the right shortcuts in your display calculations. Jan 17 18:31:04 sure on a list of 1000 numbers it would be nice to be able to scroll through 1/3rd of them with a nice smooth swipe Jan 17 18:31:41 I'd rather have 25% longer battery life than make all the gui semi-transparent Jan 17 18:31:41 What I mean about the swipe thing is, I think you need a _very_ responsive touch screen for swiping, and I doubt that a resistive one will have a good swipe feel. Jan 17 18:31:49 simply: animated areas of the screen require less detailed rendering than static ones. Jan 17 18:32:07 bhima dunno I've seen it done with a mouse, I don't think a touch screen is much different Jan 17 18:32:26 if you ever have the chance, do film an SE flash UI in action and review it in slow-mo Jan 17 18:32:32 very telling Jan 17 18:33:40 stephmw: Right. And figuring out where you need to calculate transluscency and where you don't. Jan 17 18:34:06 spikebik1: A lot of mice are very responsive. What's the update rate of the touch screen? I think some of them aren't all that fast. Jan 17 18:34:43 Even if some are good enough, some won't be, and IMHO it'll be important to allow the UI to work well on hardware that doesn't do nice swiping. Jan 17 18:35:35 seems easy Jan 17 18:35:46 whatever the sample rate a few data points can be averaged Jan 17 18:35:58 as long as the bitblit is decent the rest should be easy Jan 17 18:37:27 Do you want the average speed of the swipe, or the max speed? Perhaps the max speed is how most people indicate their desired speed? Jan 17 18:39:06 bhima: from experience, acceleration is an important measurement Jan 17 18:39:28 bhima: otherwise you don't have fine-grained control Jan 17 18:42:37 dunno, I think it would be trivial to adapt to either Jan 17 18:42:43 as long as it's consistent Jan 17 18:43:52 hi there Jan 17 18:51:13 acceleration is more important for mouse usage where you want to cross a 1600 pixel screen with a 4 inch mouse pad Jan 17 18:51:24 but when your add momentum it's more about speed than acceleration Jan 17 18:52:28 I don't agree, acceleration is still needed for large lists Jan 17 18:52:33 why? Jan 17 18:53:02 you want 3 screens a second of scrolling Jan 17 18:53:14 so you swipe a screen ful in 1/3rd of a second Jan 17 18:53:23 and how do you slow down? Jan 17 18:53:32 then you touch again to stop when close is swipe a full screen in a second Jan 17 18:56:00 spikebik1: then we'll have to disagree on the usability aspects ;) Jan 17 18:56:08 i dont like swipe-and-touch-to-stop, but swipe-slow or swipe-fast sounds good Jan 17 18:56:16 spikebik1: I think a continuous motion is better than a swipe+tap Jan 17 18:56:18 yeah sure Jan 17 18:56:34 but still doesn't need acceleration Jan 17 18:56:43 i.e. the change in the rate of the finger Jan 17 18:57:05 yes you do - otherwise you're fixing the span the user can jump through in software Jan 17 18:57:07 so swipe fast... then swipe close... then stop and pick an individual reocrd Jan 17 18:57:17 no Jan 17 18:57:31 er s/close/slow/ Jan 17 18:57:56 so announcement on friday. Jan 17 18:58:00 yes... anxiously awaited Jan 17 18:58:04 especially since my phone is dead Jan 17 18:58:26 maybe we can pre-pre-order Jan 17 18:59:08 mail coreteam@ to pre pre pre order? :D Jan 17 18:59:12 spikebik1, whats wrong is with swipping fast/slow? Jan 17 18:59:19 nothing Jan 17 18:59:20 scrolling 4cm/s isn't nice for a list that's 400m long Jan 17 18:59:38 it's the acceleration thats bad. Jan 17 19:11:54 hi there... will it only be possible to order the phone from a special offerer, or will it maybe possible to get one from t-mobile Jan 17 19:12:07 doubtful Jan 17 19:13:09 hmm k Jan 17 19:13:12 unique: have to buy from seller/distributor Jan 17 19:14:09 ok thx Jan 17 19:15:30 Will there be a published sdk for the FIC ? Jan 17 19:15:48 qpark: rather yes Jan 17 19:16:15 any timeframe on sdk availability? Jan 17 19:16:31 spikebik1: best thing about the Neo is that we'll both be able to do proofs of concept ;) Jan 17 19:17:10 the roadmap is out on friday qpark Jan 17 19:17:23 But it should be before the neo is released Jan 17 19:18:50 qpark: I suspect that coreteam will provide sdk with phone. probably also with snapshot of OpenEmbedded Jan 17 19:19:08 I'm wondering if V1 has an issue Jan 17 19:19:09 qpark: you can get started now with http://openembedded.org Jan 17 19:19:17 (thus silence on the feb issue) Jan 17 19:19:25 and they are refocusing on v2 Jan 17 19:19:33 which was barely behind v1 Jan 17 19:19:43 thus the need for a roadmap Jan 17 19:19:44 spikebik1: first prototypes had hardware problems Jan 17 19:20:15 thank you all( hrw, parag0n__, and koen) Jan 17 19:21:46 the roadmap will include prices? *G* Jan 17 19:22:08 rgl: normal price was announced as 350 USD Jan 17 19:22:35 hrw, oh, I missed that announce Jan 17 19:22:37 thx Jan 17 19:23:51 The lack of EDGE does make me a bit sad. I've been surprisingly happy with EDGE performance on my Nokia E70. Jan 17 19:25:00 after looking at gprs price here I can ignore fact that neo will have gprs Jan 17 19:25:40 hrw: I think it's cheaper to roam from the US to NL than to get native data. :) Jan 17 19:26:20 bhima: I'm not from .nl Jan 17 19:26:42 hrw: whoops. So where are you? Jan 17 19:26:46 .pl Jan 17 19:27:08 one letter away :) Jan 17 19:27:08 Hmm. When I was in CZ, GPRS was quite cheap. Jan 17 19:27:28 data rates in the UK are pretty expensive :( Jan 17 19:27:42 TMobile US charges $6 for unlimited. Jan 17 19:28:04 bhima: 6$ is like nothing Jan 17 19:28:24 hi! Jan 17 19:28:40 hrw: $6 is extra cheese on my pizza every day except Sunday! Jan 17 19:28:41 £3 per what, day, week month? Jan 17 19:30:05 US$6/month. Cingular is more expensive, at $20/month. Jan 17 19:30:34 £3 a month is rediculously cheap Jan 17 19:31:11 bhima are you sure that is what it means? Jan 17 19:31:16 Yeah, but then you have to go down to the currency exchange and swap your $6 for £3 Jan 17 19:31:21 I'd rather pay $6 any day Jan 17 19:31:21 their wording makes me think it's WAP only to a few sites Jan 17 19:31:25 not open GPRS Jan 17 19:32:16 T-Mobile has increased their limits a bit more. Jan 17 19:32:26 There are open ports. Jan 17 19:32:31 so what are the limits? Jan 17 19:33:00 I don't use their service any more; I _think_ you need to use a WAP 2.0 aka HTTP proxy for port 80 access. Jan 17 19:33:07 IMAP and POP ports are open. Jan 17 19:33:46 euuu Jan 17 19:33:52 ugly Jan 17 19:34:12 It wasn't like that when I was using it; I just had everything open. Jan 17 19:34:19 +wifi! Jan 17 19:34:24 $20/month on T-Mobile gets you fully open, iirc. Jan 17 19:34:40 I mostly want ssh Jan 17 19:34:50 and the ability to slurp data from googlemaps and the like Jan 17 19:34:57 but I can bounce off other servers I run if need be Jan 17 19:35:05 Run SSH on port 143? Jan 17 19:35:28 One of the reasons I want a linux-based phone is the ability to set up VPN stuff at a low OS level. Jan 17 19:36:37 I run ssh on 443 - https tends to be more supported than imap Jan 17 19:36:55 Oh, also, part of the reason I want concurrent voice and data is to do out of band communications with Asterisk. Jan 17 19:39:20 That openmoko story has been dugg http://digg.com/linux_unix/Forget_iPhone_Hail_OpenMoko_the_True_Revolution_2 Jan 17 19:39:36 but it crashed the site, someone took it off the homepage and the site is up again Jan 17 19:39:46 apple did lot of PR for openmoko ;D Jan 17 19:39:49 When I'm travelling in a country with expensive telephony, I'll get a pair of local prepaid SIMs, leave one in the hotel with a phone. Jan 17 19:39:54 hehe Jan 17 19:40:18 I really need to find a way to contest that deadly digg effect on our sites :\ Jan 17 19:40:19 You call my US VoIP number, it routes it to my system, and then calls via the local mobile/mobile rates. Jan 17 19:40:41 But that means I need funky caller ID. Jan 17 19:47:14 Hey everyone Jan 17 19:53:21 is it for sure that it is going to be deployed without wifi ? Jan 17 19:53:34 yes Jan 17 19:53:48 :-( Jan 17 19:55:47 wifi costs $$$ and requires power and space and appropriate interfaces. Jan 17 19:56:17 i think wifi is more useful than bluetooth, imho Jan 17 19:56:18 bhima: and there is a problem getting chipset with open driver not for usb Jan 17 19:56:47 most of usb chipsets have one common problem - they are 3.3V but usb is 5V Jan 17 19:56:47 ninHer: if you have a choice of BT or no BT (and a guarantee of no wifi), which would you choose? Jan 17 19:57:18 so you have board 5V -> usb 5V -> usbwifi-regulator 3.3V -> usbwifi chipset Jan 17 19:57:43 i would prefer wifi than bluetooth; sure Jan 17 19:57:46 ninHer: it's been reported that once the V12 is included with the hardware, Wifi will follow. V12 --> http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Jan 17 19:58:12 uhm that sounds fine Jan 17 19:58:15 :-) Jan 17 20:00:08 I will not buy a phone without bluetooth. Jan 17 20:00:30 i will not buy a phone without wifi Jan 17 20:00:37 BT in phone is more used then wifi. especially when irda is absent Jan 17 20:00:48 try to beam VCard over wifi Jan 17 20:00:50 And I will buy an open phone :-) Jan 17 20:01:09 I count 8 bluetooth devices within reach of me right now. Jan 17 20:01:10 well, may be but not in a few months in advance Jan 17 20:01:30 specially when you are going to be able to make phone calls for free Jan 17 20:01:31 bhima: Hack 'em! ;) Jan 17 20:01:53 meyerm: I count on getting 'lunchbox' version before or on fosdem - with developer discount Jan 17 20:02:11 meyerm: I've done things that count as hacking on all of them, I think. Jan 17 20:02:17 hrw: lunchbox? Jan 17 20:02:20 what is a diffrence of lunchbox version? Jan 17 20:02:33 It contains some sandwiches Jan 17 20:02:51 * Stephmw gives cying_out an 'R' Jan 17 20:05:06 wow, 180 - where are all these people coming from ^^ Jan 17 20:05:42 Sencer, openmoko.com :] Jan 17 20:06:35 Even my pen is bluetooth. :) Jan 17 20:06:53 dual ARM CPUs. Jan 17 20:07:37 atleast rwhitby comes not from openmoko.com but from #oe ;D Jan 17 20:08:21 bhima: I have exactly two BT devices... my P910, and my Greenphone Jan 17 20:08:35 bhima: but wifi sucks too much juice, so I'm happy to pass on it Jan 17 20:09:31 I have a Nokia E70, Nokia 770, MacBook Pro, anycom BT stereo headset, Nokia SU-1B bluetooth pen, two BT GPSs, BT Mighty Mouse, random BT mouse, ThinkOUtside BT keyboard, HBH-65 BT headset, HBH-15 headset, Jan 17 20:09:33 TiredMac: hi here Jan 17 20:09:53 bhima: :) Jan 17 20:10:14 hi hrw :D Jan 17 20:10:22 Nokia n-gage, Samsung T509, some other Nokia cheap headset, Nextlink headset... Jan 17 20:10:41 bt here: Logitech 2.0 EDR dongle, SE k750i phone, SE k510i phone, TDK 1.2 dongle Jan 17 20:10:44 Nokia 9500, SonyEricsson P800... Jan 17 20:10:52 A few dongles, yeah. :) Jan 17 20:11:17 I had nokia 6310i but gave as a gift fro friend Jan 17 20:11:28 PCMCIA bluetooth card, three raw BT chipsets, two Motorola serial BT interfaces, Ericsson T39m.... Jan 17 20:11:32 bhima: is that a hobby or for professional reasons? Jan 17 20:11:38 Sencer: Both. :) Jan 17 20:12:00 It's more of a hobby now. I get paid more money but I buy more of my own gadgets. Jan 17 20:12:06 bhima: well, that sounds ideal ;) Jan 17 20:12:07 so you're not just a test subject for the health hazards of BT irradiation? Jan 17 20:12:08 bhima stands for BluetoothHIMA? Jan 17 20:12:29 Standard Macbook, TiBook with BT dongle... Jan 17 20:12:52 I have this feeling I've forgotten something... Jan 17 20:13:05 iPaq h5555, yeah, I think that's it. Jan 17 20:13:43 so, umm, right. I kinda want my phone to have BT. Jan 17 20:14:37 bhima: did you tested bt2.0edr <> bt2.0edr transfers? Jan 17 20:15:13 hrw: No, I haven't. The macbooks and one headset are my only BT 2.0 devices, and since I have gigabit ethernet between the macbooks I don't bother. Jan 17 20:15:29 I did test whether the MacOS pays attention to the serial rate you set over RFCOMM. Jan 17 20:15:32 hi dbdrei Jan 17 20:15:39 I was somewhat surprised to learn that it does, in fact, do that. Jan 17 20:16:01 (between two computers, that is, not just to some sort of physical BT interface) Jan 17 20:16:15 I want my ham radio to be bluetooth. Jan 17 20:16:57 I wonder how much will neo cost in EU Jan 17 20:17:17 Eu350, or UKP350. :) Jan 17 20:17:37 maybe 350PLN? :D Jan 17 20:17:52 Then i'll by two :D Jan 17 20:17:56 Stephmw: and of those only the p910 works, right? Jan 17 20:17:57 hrw, yeah! :] Jan 17 20:18:59 TiredMac: they would find a method to add extra payments Jan 17 20:19:29 what toolkit does openmoko use for the GUI? Jan 17 20:19:36 GTK2 Jan 17 20:20:31 koen: no, latest version has working BT Jan 17 20:21:38 TiredMac: and I hope that they will not go into Sharp way so usb host cable will be in a box with phone ;D Jan 17 20:21:54 I think single visible app UIs should be very different than multi-app ones. I'm actually pretty happy with the 770's UI. I think it works well for the intended purpose. Jan 17 20:23:09 I hope they won't do logitech style pricing, where the same mouse that costs 20USD in the US, costs 30 EUR in germany... Jan 17 20:23:41 Please don't forget that warranty can be 30 days in the US and is two years in the EU :D Jan 17 20:23:52 This is a bit of a factor for the pricing Jan 17 20:24:10 30 day warranties in the US are almost unheard of. Jan 17 20:24:18 1 year is the standard for consumer electronics. Jan 17 20:24:33 Not if you check the really cheap dealers :-( Jan 17 20:24:42 Beside from NewEgg Jan 17 20:24:58 I referenced "the standard" :P Jan 17 20:25:03 lol Jan 17 20:25:13 My point is, though, that for branded things, it's not that far off. Jan 17 20:25:40 let's hope FIC falls in the branded category... ^^ Jan 17 20:25:41 It wouldn't surprise me if other regulatory and tax issues have a bigger impact. Jan 17 20:25:54 But US prices are always without any taxes. Sales tax in some states. But a lot of VAT in the EU... Jan 17 20:26:08 TiredMac: 22% in Poland ;( Jan 17 20:26:15 And a lot more annoying things that drive the price upwards Jan 17 20:26:38 I had to pay ~100 USD to get tosa&poodle from customs when some guys from US donated them to OE project Jan 17 20:26:47 Ouchie Jan 17 20:27:24 And PriceJapan send all their stuff as "Dictionaries" with $40 worth... Jan 17 20:27:31 So people avoid customs Jan 17 20:27:46 TiredMac: it was worth anyway - tosa is awesome device (but too big and have shitty wifi) Jan 17 20:27:54 TiredMac: ie: they cheat. Jan 17 20:28:02 Thats true (both points) :D Jan 17 20:28:15 Don't worry.. customs agents here cheat too. Jan 17 20:28:39 They charge tax on the estimated Canadian value rather than the declared value. Sometimes the numbers are way off. Jan 17 20:29:02 Yep. Canada and Australia are a pain in these cases Jan 17 20:29:21 how is the audio/video playback on the Neo? Jan 17 20:30:19 video? did I miss something? Jan 17 20:30:30 is there a lock button on the neo1973? if not, how do you lock it? Jan 17 20:30:53 I assume you'd be able to play video on the Neo Jan 17 20:31:07 it has a 266MHz ARM9 with 128MB of RAM Jan 17 20:31:11 that's a lot of horsepower Jan 17 20:31:43 Yer. And calling it a "Neo" without capable to watch Matrix on it would be a shame :D Jan 17 20:31:43 the problem I could think of is if the video hardware isn't fast enough for 30FPS full screen blits Jan 17 20:32:16 I own a GP2X that runs mplayer just fine Jan 17 20:32:28 it is a 200MHz ARM 9 Jan 17 20:32:34 it is dual-core though Jan 17 20:33:02 the GP2X has hardware 2D acceleration that makes the video playback possible Jan 17 20:33:39 it supports realtime IDCT transforms used in newer video codecs Jan 17 20:33:45 TiredMac: they should add Matrix transcoded on microsd Jan 17 20:33:59 hrw: and ship it with the phone :D Jan 17 20:34:08 TiredMac: s/add/ship Jan 17 20:34:22 MiniMoose: I don't really know. I only heard some speculations the other day. I don't remember anybody saying they had run video on it yet. Jan 17 20:34:34 Sencer: ok, thanks Jan 17 20:35:01 it seems like making it a portable media player would put it in head-to-head competition with the iPhone Jan 17 20:35:12 anyone know if the Neo has a method to lock the touchpad? Jan 17 20:35:24 with price and hackability firmly on the neo's side Jan 17 20:35:24 Tom33: will probably have one Jan 17 20:36:20 hrw: probably? seems like an essential feature. i've had phones with buttons that would accidentally dial a number in my pocket. Jan 17 20:36:28 But compared with the iPhone it misses the portable shower and handgranede function Jan 17 20:36:34 like it is shown here : http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ijgMCuewb1s Jan 17 20:36:48 Many WinCE phones don't let you lock hte screen. Jan 17 20:37:05 You can turn them off, but if a call comes in, screen goes on, touch screen live, etc. Jan 17 20:37:42 never used a wince phone Jan 17 20:38:31 I've used a few. Jan 17 20:38:34 *cringe* Jan 17 20:38:37 THey're terrible. Jan 17 20:38:41 Really, truly terrible. Jan 17 20:38:57 WM5 decided that "pairing" was too confusing a term for bluetooth. Jan 17 20:39:00 It's now "partnerships" Jan 17 20:39:38 i just worry about the thing dialing numbers in my pocket because, again, i've had that happen with unsensitive hardbutton phones before. Jan 17 20:42:51 TiredMac: handgranade is not needed for me - but portable shower would be nice Jan 17 20:44:27 ah.. beard trimmer functionality would be nice too Jan 17 20:44:51 Yup Jan 17 20:47:07 I just bought one Jan 17 20:47:21 A neo or a beard trimmer :D Jan 17 20:47:35 beard trimmer Jan 17 20:47:47 Has it bluetooth, runs it linux ? Jan 17 20:48:01 TiredMac: it is wireless Jan 17 20:48:26 but did not recognize my AP so rather not wifi Jan 17 20:48:34 htw: yer, but w/o bluetooth, it's worthless :D Jan 17 20:48:55 TiredMac: 'hr lol Jan 17 20:49:47 TiredMac: write 'hr' press TAB - mirc will complete Jan 17 20:49:59 my beard trimmer plays mp3s through bone induction Jan 17 20:50:08 Any1 knows if the Neo supports a BT keyboard ? Jan 17 20:50:14 TiredMac: should Jan 17 20:50:37 TiredMac: it use bluez so if your linux computer or zaurus support it then phone will do it too Jan 17 20:50:54 hrw: Hmm. Opens interesting applications :D Jan 17 20:51:22 TiredMac: btw - my post about end of zaurus line hit even russian linux websites ;D Jan 17 20:51:58 hrw: this info hits the community worldwide :-( Jan 17 20:52:27 TiredMac: I had lot of hits during weekend because of that ;D Jan 17 20:52:38 I'm just waiting for the day that I can have a "smartphone" like the neo that I can plug into a monitor with a dock in it Jan 17 20:53:03 then pull up a bluetooth keyboard and mouse and run applications on the phone but use the monitor for the display Jan 17 20:54:08 MiniMoose: Why not have data sharing and the real apps in the dock? Jan 17 20:54:08 and i cant wait to see phone with Terminal Jan 17 20:54:22 neo is going to be like that, isnt it? Jan 17 20:54:24 admittedly it wouldn't be for gaming, but running email, PIM, web, terminal, word processing, music, and video is 95% what I do with my desktop boxes Jan 17 20:54:56 I've got game consoles for games ;-) Jan 17 20:55:02 for me PIM is also mail (on desktop) Jan 17 20:55:17 I have, erm, terminals for nethack. :) Jan 17 20:55:43 heh... Jan 17 20:56:00 you know the cool thing about multi-touch screens is that you can play games where the controller is the touchscreen Jan 17 20:56:18 without multi-touch you can't do button combos Jan 17 20:56:23 :D Jan 17 20:56:54 MiniMoose: Many of the PDAs I've used haven't support multiple _hardware_ buttons at a tiem. Jan 17 20:57:09 that's a shame too Jan 17 20:57:10 bhima: Yeah.. I had a hell of a time with my toshiba e740 for that very reason Jan 17 20:57:38 not only does it impact game playing, but it limits the flexibility of the keyboard Jan 17 20:57:51 doing things like ctrl+f1 is common in the desktop world Jan 17 20:58:11 you could multiply the usefulness of any hot buttons if you could do combos Jan 17 20:59:10 As long as silly people don't get too carried away with that... :) Jan 17 20:59:24 bhima: re: your previous question, you could use the dock as the main cpu, but isn't that what we have already? Jan 17 20:59:31 bhima: I want the phone to be my PC Jan 17 20:59:51 one device to bring them all... Jan 17 21:00:09 MiniMoose: No, you don't. You want features that you think are best achieved that way. Jan 17 21:00:32 If your data's there, why do you care which CPU the code is executing on? Jan 17 21:00:35 hrm...considering that I'll be paying $60/month for an unlimited cell data plan Jan 17 21:00:44 and another $60/month for cable internet Jan 17 21:01:05 I'd like to just have the cell phone connectivity Jan 17 21:01:26 when my phone is docked, I can use it like a PC with a real monitor and get connectivity using the cel network Jan 17 21:01:40 Or you can use your phone for IP connectivity. Jan 17 21:01:46 So you will pay $120 a month. Cell for mails, cable for d/ling pr0n :D Jan 17 21:01:49 I use my phone to give my computer IP connectivity all the time. Jan 17 21:01:56 heh.. key combos.. somehow I invision breaking my fingers trying to use emacs on my phone Jan 17 21:02:18 leventhal: 'zactly. Just cause you can do combinations, doesn't mean you should. :) Jan 17 21:02:19 yeah, but my PC uses tons of electricity compared to the phone Jan 17 21:02:20 I'm sorta glad there's no accelerometer to be used in combos Jan 17 21:02:38 even though it means I won't be able to use my phone to control a roomba Jan 17 21:02:58 MiniMoose: I didn't say you needed to use an 8 CPU Pentium 1 system. Jan 17 21:03:15 bhima: how'd you guess? :-) Jan 17 21:03:34 I'm excited for technology to become unobtrusive in my life Jan 17 21:03:40 I just want it all in my pocket Jan 17 21:03:45 everything Jan 17 21:03:59 I'm eager for wearable computers Jan 17 21:04:12 Given the efficiency of battery charing and discharging, I think it would be more energy efficient to use a good low wattage CPU in the dock and spare your phone's CPU. Jan 17 21:04:13 Haven't found a good input system yet Jan 17 21:04:23 I like the idea of wearables. I don't know of any one I want. Jan 17 21:04:36 bhima: that's a resonable argument Jan 17 21:05:22 bhima: if you're going to have the CPU in the dock/monitor, you'd probably want it also to have an external USB HDD for personal data storage Jan 17 21:05:39 I want my primary apps to _truly_ share data. Jan 17 21:05:46 I want a scalable UI. Jan 17 21:06:05 So when I'm reading my mail on my desktop, it stores metadata about the state of my operations. Jan 17 21:06:16 It stores, in some abstract form, what I'm doing. Jan 17 21:06:25 bhima: what's that for? Jan 17 21:06:39 My 770, and cellphone, and any other device, will understand that same abstract state info. Jan 17 21:07:05 So if I'm in a certain mailbox, and reading and replying to email, and I get up, my cellphone's email reader will show me the same message. Jan 17 21:07:32 bhima: if it's all in one little device you won't have to worry about it Jan 17 21:08:07 MiniMoose: You mean, if I'm willing to read my emails on a 3" screen? Jan 17 21:08:18 if you have it docked and you're reading email, then you realize you're late for an appointment, you can just grab the phone off the dock, jump on a bus, and your phone is still on the message you were reading. Jan 17 21:08:46 bhima: when the device is docked in the monitor/dock thingy, it is displaying on the monitor and the device's screen is off Jan 17 21:08:47 MiniMoose: Once you have an app that can scale between 3" and 22" screens properly, making it share data with other apps is not hard. Jan 17 21:09:20 seems to me like having "view contexts" wouldn't be hard to implement in gtk Jan 17 21:09:26 The challenge is in making nice apps that can express complex state (email isn't that hard) in appropriately abstract forms. Jan 17 21:09:27 switch(gtk_get_context()) Jan 17 21:09:41 bhima: yeah I see that Jan 17 21:09:50 but think of what apps would need it... Jan 17 21:09:57 email, PIM, web... Jan 17 21:10:03 maps Jan 17 21:10:04 structure web searching. Jan 17 21:10:09 structured, even. Jan 17 21:10:14 Task-based searching. Jan 17 21:10:29 but those apps don't exist yet, not even on the desktop Jan 17 21:10:36 people don't know they need that yet Jan 17 21:10:51 they do know they need email, PIM, and web Jan 17 21:10:52 Describe the searching task, look at web results, identify which ones are useful and relevant.... Jan 17 21:11:16 MiniMoose: That's why I'm happier working at academic research labs. :) Jan 17 21:11:29 bhima: that's the semantic web problem that won't be solved for years Jan 17 21:11:53 The basic thing I just described is something that you could implement farily easily. Jan 17 21:12:05 I create a search task. Jan 17 21:12:18 Define in english what it's for, maybe add some categories. Jan 17 21:12:27 It pumps google, and gets some results. Jan 17 21:12:41 I look at a few. Jan 17 21:12:54 Rate them based on how useful they are, put one or two on the stack of actual results. Jan 17 21:13:03 Refine the search, continue. Jan 17 21:13:56 I can navigate through a tree of search results. I start adding terms, and decide that's not working. Jan 17 21:14:06 back up three search terms, and make a new branch. Jan 17 21:15:34 I'd really like that for my phone. Jan 17 21:15:36 Or my 770. Jan 17 21:15:44 Those devices don't deal well with dozens of open web sites. Jan 17 21:16:19 * xkr47 tried a N800 today Jan 17 21:16:30 I concluded that it's nice, but not what I want :) Jan 17 21:16:35 xkr47: does it look as ugly in person as in pictures? Jan 17 21:16:39 Is it as big as it looks? Jan 17 21:17:15 it's big if you compare it to phones Jan 17 21:17:20 it's about as big as http://www.flickr.com/photos/86669029@N00/356833001/ Jan 17 21:17:34 if you know the nokia n-gage for example, it's a lot smaller already Jan 17 21:17:51 I mean the n-gage is smaller Jan 17 21:18:58 both ngages are smaller? Jan 17 21:19:49 cu Jan 17 21:19:49 hmm Jan 17 21:19:52 cu! Jan 17 21:19:54 goodnight Jan 17 21:19:54 :) Jan 17 21:20:30 the screen on the n800 is not as "soft" as in the 770 Jan 17 21:20:49 That freaked me out. Jan 17 21:21:13 soft? Jan 17 21:21:17 It looks pretty nice. The price isn't even stupid. I guess they had to leave out the 802.xx to make their price point. Jan 17 21:21:30 well like the pen sunk slightly into the surface or something Jan 17 21:21:32 ;) Jan 17 21:21:46 i like hard surfaces more :) Jan 17 21:21:49 (Sorry, I just found out about this phone today. Forgive my nasal newbie mewling ...) Jan 17 21:21:50 I followed my friend setting it up Jan 17 21:22:01 everything worked quite smoothly I have to say Jan 17 21:22:08 xorAxAx, :) Jan 17 21:22:30 how many and what kind of usb ports does the n800 have? Jan 17 21:23:17 see topic Jan 17 21:23:26 and real a 2 pages of openmoko.com Jan 17 21:23:34 s/real/read/ Jan 17 21:23:35 koen meant: and read a 2 pages of openmoko.com Jan 17 21:24:02 koen: ? Jan 17 21:24:10 openmoko.com talks about nokia's products? Jan 17 21:24:33 may I ask what is it with these names: ly5d3x1a, xkr47, xorAxAx - do they have a meaning in some language? Or is it just random characters on the keyboards? Jan 17 21:24:37 sorry, I misread 'n800' as 'neo' Jan 17 21:24:54 Sencer: thats intel 8086 assembly Jan 17 21:25:04 'ly5d3x1a' is a leet anagram Jan 17 21:25:07 Sencer: I've been using the name since the 80's. Yes, it's shamefully silly. Jan 17 21:25:31 ly5d3x1a: oh... I get it Jan 17 21:25:33 xorAxAx, my friend had a feeling the n800 might be host only, but he wasn't sure Jan 17 21:25:34 Sencer: it can be usually found before the last instruction if the function is a predicate that returns false and doesnt have a stackframe Jan 17 21:25:37 xorAxAx: ah! Jan 17 21:26:01 xkr47: thats enough for me Jan 17 21:26:07 xkr47: does it have regular ports? Jan 17 21:26:13 Is there an sdk in the works? Jan 17 21:26:19 xorAxAx, he recalled they put a different chip in the n800 than in n770 and that the kernel drivers supported "host" only.. but maybe it was a driver feature Jan 17 21:26:29 xorAxAx: don't worry, I don't have a stackframe either. Jan 17 21:26:35 xorAxAx, mini usb + stereo headphones Jan 17 21:26:49 the SoC in the n800 support 480Mb/s host Jan 17 21:26:56 xkr47: stereo headphones? Jan 17 21:26:59 except they didn't wire it up Jan 17 21:27:02 Sencer, I got bored of my old nick sometimes around 1998 and wrote a random string on the keyboard a few times Jan 17 21:27:03 you mean headphone jack Jan 17 21:27:13 xkr47: LOL Jan 17 21:27:19 xorAxAx, 3.5 plug or what you call it Jan 17 21:27:24 yeah Jan 17 21:27:26 Sencer, one of the strings was xkr~47 Jan 17 21:27:34 xkr47: and how is it charged then? Jan 17 21:27:38 I kept that for long but it didn't work in irc so I dropped the ~ Jan 17 21:27:46 xkr47: got it. Out of curiosity - what was the old nick? ^^ Jan 17 21:27:49 a host only port cannot demand enough power for charging Jan 17 21:27:50 xkr47: and 13:37 is the most leet time every day :D Jan 17 21:27:52 xorAxAx, I don't recall how he charged it sorry Jan 17 21:28:14 Sencer: is this the NSA trying to track down terrorists? Jan 17 21:28:32 xorAxAx: :D Jan 17 21:29:01 Sencer, hmmmmm.... :) Jan 17 21:29:14 TiredMac, ?-) Jan 17 21:29:21 So, the N800 is the same as the 770, you must give it 5v, but it is at least 480mbps? Jan 17 21:29:43 bhima: nope, no usb otg connector Jan 17 21:29:57 bhima: according to nokians on the mailinglist Jan 17 21:30:00 client only Jan 17 21:30:09 can any phone handle even usb 1.1's worth of traffic anyway ? Jan 17 21:30:12 The 770 doesn't have a USB OTG connector eitehr... Jan 17 21:30:29 koen: sry, say again: There's no USB host for the Neo ? Jan 17 21:30:44 TiredMac: for the n800 Jan 17 21:30:58 koen: sry, looks like i'm really tired ;-) Jan 17 21:31:02 TiredMac, afaik neo works either as usb host or device (depending on configuration) Jan 17 21:31:10 TiredMac: same here Jan 17 21:31:10 koen, do you need to unload the usb driver to switch modes ? Jan 17 21:31:24 Yer, and the cable settings Jan 17 21:31:30 ? Jan 17 21:31:32 xkr47: likely Jan 17 21:31:54 maybe autodetection could work :) Jan 17 21:32:03 annyway, the least of my worries :) Jan 17 21:32:18 wow, quite a few people on this channel. Jan 17 21:32:25 You don't need autodetection. The cable wiring shows if it's host or slave USB. Jan 17 21:32:38 * xkr47 didn't know you can extend usb up to 50 metres with external powering Jan 17 21:32:48 * xkr47 thought 5m was the absolute upper limit Jan 17 21:32:59 they're basically hubs in the middle Jan 17 21:33:09 or well, you would have to have amplifiers every 5m Jan 17 21:33:16 and you just keep running hubs with the longest allowed cable 'till you can't anymore Jan 17 21:33:29 TiredMac, yeah.. I think I reads something like that.. there's an extra pin telling which way it is right ? Jan 17 21:33:50 * koen wonders about the hackers lunchbox Jan 17 21:34:00 cbpage, well this one solution has just one hub and gives 25m Jan 17 21:34:07 Perhaps the hacker's lunchbox is the sdk. Jan 17 21:34:20 With a sandwitch. Jan 17 21:34:30 then there's another one that goes to 50 but it uses ethernet twisted pair in the middle as transport (but is still usb signalling) Jan 17 21:34:35 And perhaps an aseptic juicebox full of stout. Jan 17 21:34:44 full of stdout Jan 17 21:35:20 xkr47: Yep. It's a little resistor between two pins. And also you can see it from the connectors color Jan 17 21:35:26 My standard out is not something one would want to drink, friend xkr47. Jan 17 21:35:38 TiredMac, so would neo have usb mini A or B ? Jan 17 21:35:39 xkr47: White is host. Black is slave. A connector in grey is host/slave capable Jan 17 21:35:47 Is the SDK going to be available for free? Jan 17 21:36:03 ly5d3x1a, if you're drunk enough, even stderr goes ;) Jan 17 21:36:05 bhima: no, you will have to pay money to trolltech :) Jan 17 21:36:06 Good question. I can't find anything through google. Jan 17 21:36:23 TiredMac, ok nice.. where can you order these bastards ?-) Jan 17 21:36:24 bhima: ... of course, free of charge, free of unfreeness Jan 17 21:36:54 our local "biggest computer shop in northern europe" only had one mini-usb A - usb A cable and a few mini usb B - usb A cables Jan 17 21:37:12 There are too many different kinds of USB cables. It gets very confusing. Jan 17 21:37:19 xkr47: trisoft.de :) Jan 17 21:37:26 koen, thx! Jan 17 21:37:49 xkr47: maybe www.reichelt.de ships to .fi Jan 17 21:37:52 would somebody know what cables & stuff comes with the white rabb^H^H^H^H^H^Hneo ? Jan 17 21:37:56 6 different ends to USB cables actually. quite annoying. firewire only has 2 Jan 17 21:38:02 xorAxAx, thx! Jan 17 21:38:17 i dont see any english button, though Jan 17 21:38:27 but i guess that you have learned german at school :) Jan 17 21:38:34 freak132, usb A male & female, usb B, usb A mini male & female, usb B mini ? Jan 17 21:38:39 firewire also has higher realworld throughput even though 1394a is only rated for 400Mbps Jan 17 21:38:59 xkr47: It must be a Mini A/B connector. Get our startupguide and look at page 19 here: http://www.trisoft.de/pdf/c3000qs.pdf Jan 17 21:39:01 * koen hugs firewire Jan 17 21:39:11 freak132, I guess the protocol is more suited for high-speed multimedia than nice pluggable device stuff.. Jan 17 21:39:15 xkr47, if you're counting male/female the number jumps to 12 ends Jan 17 21:39:27 so which cable are you searching for? Jan 17 21:39:29 xorAxAx, no, I skipped it :P I regret now :P Jan 17 21:39:33 xkr47: I also prefer www.trisoft.de *LMAO* Jan 17 21:39:45 heh Jan 17 21:39:47 * freak132 wants to make a firewire network Jan 17 21:39:49 suprising :) Jan 17 21:39:54 +r Jan 17 21:39:56 freak132, ok I'll stop asking ;) Jan 17 21:40:06 OK, I am with TRIsoft Jan 17 21:40:06 which cable, xkr47? :) Jan 17 21:40:13 You need a host cable Jan 17 21:40:23 for having fun with devices on a USB host port Jan 17 21:40:24 xorAxAx, I need to figure out, a sec :D Jan 17 21:40:47  Jan 17 21:40:48 they have 29 different ones Jan 17 21:41:00 [resend] would somebody know what cables & stuff comes with the white rabb^H^H^H^H^H^Hneo ? Jan 17 21:41:01 I help you, it's here : http://www.trisoft.de/en_tzubehr.htm :D Jan 17 21:41:26 And don't blame me for advertising ;-) Jan 17 21:41:29 * xkr47 goes to wikipedia to find out what usb connector his camera has :) Jan 17 21:41:43 Definitely a USB mini A client port Jan 17 21:41:46 Black ! Jan 17 21:41:56 hmm! Jan 17 21:41:59 Don't look at Wikipedia, look at the color of the port Jan 17 21:42:06 It must be black Jan 17 21:42:11 don't get mad, but I'll check on wikipedia anyway.. to learn :) Jan 17 21:42:15 lol Jan 17 21:42:25 yeah the cable I connect currently with is black Jan 17 21:42:42 Yer. Because it's a cable to connect a client to a host Jan 17 21:42:58 If it has a white connector, it would be a cable to connect a device Jan 17 21:43:11 Like a keyboard or a USB stick Jan 17 21:43:36 It's pretty easy with the color coding. More info and specs can be found at usb.org Jan 17 21:43:43 * xkr47 goes hmm Jan 17 21:43:52 TiredMac: where is the colour? Jan 17 21:43:53 isn't my camera a device ? Jan 17 21:43:55 But it's only white / black / grey. Easy to remind. Jan 17 21:44:00 in the inner part? Jan 17 21:44:04 The color of the connector inner part. Jan 17 21:44:06 * xkr47 would assume client == device :P Jan 17 21:44:09 If it's black : Slave Jan 17 21:44:12 If it's white : Host Jan 17 21:44:20 ok Jan 17 21:44:21 If it's grey : Host / Slave capable Jan 17 21:44:27 TiredMac, it was in german! I aborted! Jan 17 21:44:31 (the pdf) Jan 17 21:44:36 TiredMac: thats for cables or for devices? Jan 17 21:44:48 TiredMac, but the cable is black in both ends.. yet one of the ends connects to the host (my pc) Jan 17 21:44:52 :P Jan 17 21:44:57 http://upload.wikimedia.org/wikipedia/commons/a/ad/Mini_usb_AB.jpg Jan 17 21:45:38 Ouchie. Sorry. Here's the english version: http://www.trisoft.de/pdf/c3000qse.pdf Jan 17 21:45:54 Shame on me. Jan 17 21:46:00 no shame Jan 17 21:46:14 * xkr47 is going a bit nuts with all this color & usb stuff Jan 17 21:46:21 *lol* Jan 17 21:46:26 or well, I'm nuts anywya Jan 17 21:46:41 woot Jan 17 21:46:49 That's a must for working with Linux devices :D Jan 17 21:47:06 But Islay Whisky helps a lot ;-) Jan 17 21:47:18 yeah, or writing your own operating system :) Jan 17 21:47:23 lol Jan 17 21:47:45 No. There're really enough OS's in the world. Jan 17 21:47:57 All OSs suck. Jan 17 21:48:06 Still have a Sharp Unix System IV on 10 8" Floppy Discs here :D Jan 17 21:48:17 TiredMac, back in 1997 when I was programming, there wasn't ;) Jan 17 21:48:25 That's true Jan 17 21:48:34 Wasn't life easy ? Jan 17 21:48:36 I booted to my OS and back to dos in 30 seconds Jan 17 21:48:40 yeah Jan 17 21:48:55 I had autoexec.bat configured so that it automatically restarted my editor (boxer of course) Jan 17 21:49:06 moko (moco) means booger in spanish. Jan 17 21:49:08 zedit is nice Jan 17 21:49:08 * tessier_ snickers Jan 17 21:49:25 as nice as xtree : Jan 17 21:49:26 -) Jan 17 21:49:35 * tessier_ looks forward to the roadmap Jan 17 21:49:38 xkr47: Yes, but was your text white on blue? Jan 17 21:50:03 ly5d3x1a: My text was always amber on undefined :D Jan 17 21:50:29 ly5d3x1a, well when I had a spectravideo 728, it was, but on the PC I used white on black Jan 17 21:50:40 ;) Jan 17 21:50:45 microsoft spectravideo! Jan 17 21:51:11 so.. Jan 17 21:51:16 to get the terms straight Jan 17 21:51:37 a thing connected to usb is a "device" that can be in either "host" or "client" mode ? Jan 17 21:51:52 Nope. It's much more simple Jan 17 21:52:02 A client can always be connected to a host Jan 17 21:52:15 Like a camera / usb-stick / keyboard to a PC or PDA Jan 17 21:52:19 ok Jan 17 21:52:22 there is a way to connect two hosts together though? Jan 17 21:52:27 But not a camera to a USB stick (both are clients) Jan 17 21:52:33 yes Jan 17 21:52:34 Sketch: no Jan 17 21:52:39 i think it may require a sepcial cable... Jan 17 21:52:42 Yes. But one have to be the host and one the client Jan 17 21:53:02 So one of them has to have a grey connector Jan 17 21:53:09 TiredMac, but if you connect a host to a client, is the other plug white and the other plug black on the cable ? Jan 17 21:53:17 Sketch: yes. Sorta. You buy a "cable" which has some gadgets in the middle. Jan 17 21:53:20 Yep. You got it Jan 17 21:53:21 or is it called jack? heck I don't know the vocabulary :P Jan 17 21:53:26 TiredMac, talking to me ?-) Jan 17 21:53:28 It basically has two clients that talk together. Jan 17 21:53:28 bhima: ahh, so they cheat :) Jan 17 21:53:49 OK. Let's try to get it straight Jan 17 21:53:54 :DDD Jan 17 21:54:01 The cable wiring defines if it is host or slave at the end Jan 17 21:54:20 For a USB connection, you always need 1 client and 1 host Jan 17 21:54:44 so one jack has to be white or gray, and the other black or gry Jan 17 21:54:47 *gray Jan 17 21:54:57 The cable defines, who the master is Jan 17 21:55:02 TiredMac: Sometimes. Jan 17 21:55:12 As long as this end is connected to a master (host) capable device Jan 17 21:55:20 so do the "grey" cables have two grey plugs always ? Jan 17 21:55:31 or is there gray-white, gray-black etc ? Jan 17 21:55:32 There's no grey cable Jan 17 21:55:33 Most USB devices are only host or only device. Jan 17 21:55:44 There are some special bi-gender ones. Jan 17 21:55:51 Just a gray jack where you could plug a white or black cable Jan 17 21:55:54 (so we shouldn't really be getting this straight... :) Jan 17 21:56:07 looks so *lol* Jan 17 21:56:08 :D Jan 17 21:56:32 All USB cables are designed so that you can't plug them in the wrong way. Jan 17 21:56:33 OK. Nip a bit on your coffee or whatever. It Jan 17 21:56:37 it's all bisexual, goddamnit! no point making the female & male connectors straight!! Jan 17 21:56:52 It's really simple. Jan 17 21:56:52 TiredMac: my ipod cable is white on the pc side Jan 17 21:56:58 hmm, thats correct Jan 17 21:57:01 Traditionally, you had host and device connectors, that's it. Jan 17 21:57:06 Yer Jan 17 21:57:11 You're on the right track Jan 17 21:57:14 :D Jan 17 21:57:14 The coloring thing is new. Jan 17 21:57:14 wow, black on the ipod side Jan 17 21:57:25 In fact, it's three colors Jan 17 21:57:30 TiredMac, it seems the plug/jack is colored as you said only if it follows the OTG standard, is this correct ? Jan 17 21:57:30 for the jacks Jan 17 21:57:46 Yes. But OTG is (like it says) STANDARD Jan 17 21:57:57 My USB A to mini-B cable, not OTG, follows the color coding. interesting. Jan 17 21:58:02 It's USB On-The-Go Jan 17 21:58:14 TiredMac: But if your cables aren't OTG, then you can get confused... Jan 17 21:58:17 yeah.. I figured that from the sharp manual Jan 17 21:58:26 bhima, I get confused anyway :) Jan 17 21:58:29 Our's are standard. Sure. Jan 17 21:58:34 White for the host-cable Jan 17 21:58:38 ??? Jan 17 21:58:42 *lookspuzzled* Jan 17 21:58:43 TiredMac, you work for trisoft.de.. or was it the other one ?-) Jan 17 21:58:50 So the thing to remember is that all cables are only designed to be plugged in correctly, you can't plug them in in a way that doesn't work. Jan 17 21:58:52 I'm Marc from TRIsoft, yes Jan 17 21:59:05 ok, hi! Jan 17 21:59:06 :) Jan 17 21:59:09 Yep. They're also shape-coded Jan 17 21:59:30 can linux usb things typically act as host / client ? Jan 17 21:59:31 So all cables are device at one end, and host at the other. Jan 17 21:59:42 or is it just a mini usb feature ? Jan 17 21:59:53 There's one magic connector for devices that can accept eitehr a host, or a client, connector. Jan 17 21:59:56 (that it can be either, and thus uses a grey connector) Jan 17 22:00:04 No, not really. It's a mini usb feature. The main trick is a small resistor between two pins. Jan 17 22:00:23 So you'll find the grey connector only on devices, not in cables Jan 17 22:00:24 no, not really => linuxes can only act as host ? Jan 17 22:00:44 Your Mobo chip is only host-capable (afaik) Jan 17 22:00:47 TiredMac, ah so the cables look the same but the connectors on the devices have colouring ? Jan 17 22:00:48 xkr47: most things are one way only. Jan 17 22:00:55 The cables don't look the same. Jan 17 22:01:04 They look...confusingly _similar_ but not the _same_. Jan 17 22:01:08 well .. same color.. Jan 17 22:01:11 sorry said it badly Jan 17 22:01:30 .. anyway.. I think I heard some projects about connecting two pcs together with usb Jan 17 22:01:38 dunno what they did then, maybe it was som ehack Jan 17 22:01:43 You can't see it directly on the cable. It's just a funny thing that our host cable has a white plastic around. Jan 17 22:01:54 You have to look at the connector inside the jack Jan 17 22:02:19 And (to make it more complicate) there're some cheap china cables out there, that don't care about the colors Jan 17 22:02:23 * xkr47 looks up "jack" in the dictionary to avoid confusion Jan 17 22:02:36 Jack is where you plug your cable in :-) Jan 17 22:02:44 "any of various portable devices for raising or lifting heavy objects short heights, using various mechanical, pneumatic, or hydraulic methods." Jan 17 22:02:55 Aaaaaaargh Jan 17 22:02:58 :DD Jan 17 22:03:01 is jack == outlet Jan 17 22:03:07 Yes. You got it :D Jan 17 22:03:19 What you will find at the back of your PC Jan 17 22:03:22 and plug == connector Jan 17 22:03:27 Yup Jan 17 22:03:35 I thought I knew english Jan 17 22:03:36 :) Jan 17 22:03:40 *lol* Jan 17 22:03:42 but I learn Jan 17 22:03:55 Same for me ;-) Jan 17 22:03:58 so.. USB B & miniUSB B are both client-only connectors, right ? Jan 17 22:04:06 Yes Jan 17 22:04:07 and USB A is host only Jan 17 22:04:12 Also : Yes Jan 17 22:04:33 but miniUSB A, if grey, is host/client, or if something else (hopefully white), host only Jan 17 22:04:59 If it's gray, you'll look at a jack. Cause there's no host/client cable ;-) Jan 17 22:05:15 woot!!! Jan 17 22:05:23 *applause* Jan 17 22:05:38 I think we have to .. Jan 17 22:05:44 Added in the On-The-Go Supplement to the USB 2.0 Specification: Jan 17 22:05:44 Mini-A plug (white) Jan 17 22:05:44 Mini-A receptacle (white) Jan 17 22:05:44 Mini-AB receptacle (grey) Jan 17 22:06:14 so is the grey jack actually different from both miniA and miniB ? Jan 17 22:06:21 * xorAxAx wants bisexual jacks and cables Jan 17 22:06:22 YEEEEEEAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAH ! You got it ! Jan 17 22:06:29 And if you're really really really bored Jan 17 22:06:30 auto-sensing Jan 17 22:06:35 Go to : http://www.usb.org/developers/onthego/ Jan 17 22:06:39 I thought it was like miniA but with some resistor added Jan 17 22:06:46 NOW YOU'R TELLING ME!! Jan 17 22:06:52 :) Jan 17 22:06:55 And get the OTG Supplement (pdf, 776k) - Revision 1.2, 04-04-2006 for full specification Jan 17 22:07:11 xorAxAx, jacks and janes Jan 17 22:07:42 It's also of a different shape. So nobody can plug a host cable in a client port... Jan 17 22:07:49 xkr47: nah, jane and jane and a bisexual usb cable would be fine Jan 17 22:07:52 OK, with some force, it may fit :D Jan 17 22:08:26 TiredMac: ah, is it related to A/B? Jan 17 22:08:31 :) Jan 17 22:09:00 Yes. Kinda. Just read it and get enlighted ;-) Jan 17 22:09:02 TiredMac, but can somebody plug either a host or a client plug in a grey jack (or jane) ? Jan 17 22:09:23 Yes. That's because it's a gray (host / client) jack Jan 17 22:09:38 It's really pretty simple. Just step back and grab some of your USB deviced. Jan 17 22:09:49 Look at the connectors. They will be black in most cases. Jan 17 22:09:51 but the os still doesn't necessarily get the information and you have to (pre-)configure it to work properly.. Jan 17 22:10:03 That's right. Jan 17 22:10:05 I have a mini-B in front of me now :) Jan 17 22:10:13 TiredMac: what should i read? Jan 17 22:10:20 i cant find usable info there Jan 17 22:10:32 The OTG supplement PDF with the complete specification Jan 17 22:10:38 I have a cable that has a usb-a and a mini-b and they're all black :) Jan 17 22:10:51 Everything about color coding / jack and plug shaping and stuff Jan 17 22:11:05 It's the official specification Jan 17 22:11:22 we believe you as soon as we understand you :) Jan 17 22:11:32 I know, it's hard to understand me ;-) Jan 17 22:11:42 it's hard to understand usb :) Jan 17 22:11:47 it's too simple :) Jan 17 22:11:58 Sometimes it is. Jan 17 22:12:01 oh may that document has been revised :) Jan 17 22:12:23 Nope. Not since April 2006 ;-) Jan 17 22:12:25 only took 6 years :DD Jan 17 22:13:16 nice, detailed pixx of females & males & bisexuals!!! Jan 17 22:13:18 I understand it. Jan 17 22:13:21 usb pr0n! Jan 17 22:13:40 only colors are missing Jan 17 22:13:59 :D Jan 17 22:14:24 one would think that would be a key thing, but no.. they wanted to save printing costs Jan 17 22:14:53 They're not selling printed manuals... Jan 17 22:15:04 * xkr47 learns that receptable == jack == outlet Jan 17 22:15:35 LOOL Jan 17 22:15:37 "Max cable length = shorter of 4.5m or 25nsec electrical length" Jan 17 22:15:55 lightspeed is still an issue ;-) Jan 17 22:16:00 "how long is your cable? 24 nanoseconds! OK you're good!!" Jan 17 22:16:10 *lmao* Jan 17 22:17:11 Is there a minimum length? Jan 17 22:17:24 TiredMac: does this mean that my slave has to support OTG if i want to attach it to the e.g. n800? Jan 17 22:17:45 OTG is just the name for that small connector Jan 17 22:17:52 xorAxAx: the n800 is a device only. Jan 17 22:18:10 (it is probably hackable into a host with external power foo and cable choppery) Jan 17 22:18:36 bhima: hmm, i dont need power ... Jan 17 22:18:55 xoraxax: So? :P Jan 17 22:18:59 Your USB chipset does. Jan 17 22:19:11 The 770 needs 5v power to go into host mode. Jan 17 22:19:16 WTF!! there's one example chart with "Mini-A plug to cut end" Jan 17 22:19:21 bhima: hmm Jan 17 22:19:33 Doesn't matter if your device is powered or not. Jan 17 22:19:33 bhima: my slave doesnt need power Jan 17 22:19:37 The Neo1073 is also unpowered host. So you'll need an active hub to use devices. Jan 17 22:19:46 what do you use these cut end cables for? as antennas?---) Jan 17 22:19:49 xoraxax: your host needs power. :P Jan 17 22:19:50 TiredMac: even if the device is self-powered? Jan 17 22:19:53 bhima: yes Jan 17 22:20:00 xoraxax: Your host needs 5v. Jan 17 22:20:11 It does not generate 5v itself. Jan 17 22:20:22 bhima: ah Jan 17 22:20:25 TiredMac, my aim was to create a short mini-usb-a to mini-usb-b cable that adds +5V from a battery Jan 17 22:20:41 TiredMac, because my camera takes a mini-usb-b.. Jan 17 22:20:45 and n770 has otg? Jan 17 22:21:00 The 770 and N800 do not have a genuine OTG implementation. Jan 17 22:21:14 The 770 has the _innards_ to do OTG. Jan 17 22:21:17 Well, _most_ of the innards. Jan 17 22:21:27 xkr47: The battery idea maybe possible, but i would prefer a commercial USB hub. Jan 17 22:21:38 bhima: and, did people manage to use the innards? Jan 17 22:21:48 The things needed for it to really do OTG: the correct connector, and 5v power. Jan 17 22:22:00 If it were designed by Nokia to do OTG, it would include a 5v supply inside. Jan 17 22:22:13 xorAxAx, why does the host (== neo) need 5V also? I thought 5V is used by the neo for charging.. and I don't want to charge my neo off some batteries Jan 17 22:22:15 Since it doesn't ahve this, you can give it 5v externally. Jan 17 22:22:30 sorry bhima... Jan 17 22:22:33 Powered USB hubs will not solve this problem. Jan 17 22:22:40 xkr47: the otg slave needs power Jan 17 22:22:43 Powered hubs only power _downstream_, not upstream. Jan 17 22:22:46 xkr47: even if it is in host mode :) Jan 17 22:22:52 They will. You can't power devices from a phone battery. Jan 17 22:23:06 * xkr47 goes nuts Jan 17 22:23:06 TiredMac: ... for long Jan 17 22:23:10 xkr47: haha Jan 17 22:23:12 You can power devices from a phone battery. Jan 17 22:23:29 All USB devices need power to work, obviously. Jan 17 22:23:31 bhima: are you sure that no otg implementation of a slave is self-powering? Jan 17 22:23:38 * xkr47 wants to get things straight (again) Jan 17 22:23:46 xoraxax: What is an OTG implementation of a slave? Jan 17 22:23:53 bhima: a B one Jan 17 22:24:02 a) you can't use the usb port in neither host nor client mode unless you also feed it 5V ? Jan 17 22:24:06 bhima: lets just use A and B Jan 17 22:24:13 B will start in slave mode and expect power Jan 17 22:24:20 All devices that I have used require 5v on the USB port, period. Jan 17 22:24:27 Depends if the client will suck power from the host ;-) Jan 17 22:24:41 TiredMac: bhima claims that it doesnt matter Jan 17 22:24:42 For example: A camera won't ! Jan 17 22:24:43 bhima, except if you have a PC which actually feeds 5V into the cable Jan 17 22:24:54 Aaaargh. A PC IS A HOST ! Jan 17 22:24:57 TiredMac: bhima says that no device will work because the root hub wont have the power Jan 17 22:25:06 Your DVD burner? It has power to operate the burner part, but it gets 5v from the USB host. Jan 17 22:25:07 in case of an B OTG dev Jan 17 22:25:16 Point for you Jan 17 22:25:16 There's no such thing as a "B OTG device" Jan 17 22:25:17 TiredMac, I know that.. but bhima is saying the host needs to be fed 5V if it doesn't have it itself :P Jan 17 22:25:23 There's an OTG device in host or device mode. Jan 17 22:25:32 bhima: incorrect Jan 17 22:25:46 gaah :) Jan 17 22:25:50 May i try to interrupt your fight ? Jan 17 22:25:50 please refer to page rev 1.2 page 2 Jan 17 22:25:56 hold on a sec. Jan 17 22:26:03 also see 3.6 of the spec Jan 17 22:26:19 sooo ... who powers the root hub of a B otg dev in host mode? %-) Jan 17 22:26:30 lol ol Jan 17 22:26:38 I WILL POWER ALL YOUR DEVICES. PERIOD. Jan 17 22:27:12 May we stop this at the following point: Jan 17 22:27:17 hmm.. who cares? :] Jan 17 22:27:24 Normally, a USB host device has to power at least a bit. Jan 17 22:27:33 Enough for, let's say, a USB stick. Jan 17 22:27:40 Not enough for a USB harddisk or CD drive Jan 17 22:27:42 no Jan 17 22:27:52 an usb host has to power < 50 mA Jan 17 22:27:58 until the device requested more Jan 17 22:28:07 Should be enough for a USB stick, or not ? Jan 17 22:28:14 --> all cooking and massage devices violate the specs! Jan 17 22:28:18 afaik each port should supply something about 200mA at 5V Jan 17 22:28:19 /join #usb-flamewar Jan 17 22:28:26 I want to have a massage device ! Jan 17 22:28:26 xorAxAx, lol Jan 17 22:28:27 TiredMac: hmm, dont think so :) let me see Jan 17 22:28:31 of 50mA :> Jan 17 22:28:34 lol Jan 17 22:28:40 i think it's 500ma - 2.5w Jan 17 22:28:46 cbpage: no! Jan 17 22:28:46 TiredMac, I want a massage device that runs on 50mA :D Jan 17 22:28:54 cbpage: only if the device was allowed to draw that Jan 17 22:29:03 suck it baby! Jan 17 22:29:12 cbpage: thats an authorian protocol Jan 17 22:29:21 I can only tell from the Sharp Zaurus series (it's simply the only USB A/B device i know of) Jan 17 22:29:27 its not anarchisitic like the usb massage system vendors want to make you think! Jan 17 22:29:32 xkr47: those types of 'devices' usually run on AA batteries, no? Jan 17 22:29:34 You may use a USB stick, a USB keyboard Jan 17 22:29:49 hell I have no idea Jan 17 22:29:51 Devices that need more than 500 mA or higher than 5 volts must provide their own power. http://pinouts.ru/Slots/USB_pinout.shtml Jan 17 22:29:58 AA bats have the bad point to run with 6V if you put 4 in ;-) Jan 17 22:29:58 youre right cbpage Jan 17 22:29:58 I'm just watching a great play.. on irc :) Jan 17 22:30:23 TiredMac, there's always 7805 to the rescue! :) Jan 17 22:30:25 *getting beer, chips, popcorn* Jan 17 22:30:37 You want a low dropout regulator. Jan 17 22:30:55 TiredMac, some example used a 9V battery and a 7805.. I guess it lasts longer but wastes more Jan 17 22:31:00 TiredMac: hmm Jan 17 22:31:05 TiredMac: i have a self-powered HD Jan 17 22:31:10 TiredMac: would it work as well? Jan 17 22:31:14 Self powered :-O Jan 17 22:31:20 lol Jan 17 22:31:21 i think an usb keyboard at the zaurus is not OTG! Jan 17 22:31:27 self powered HDs still need 5v. Jan 17 22:31:31 yes, my boss gave it to me as a gift Jan 17 22:31:38 YES ! It is (sorry for shouting) Jan 17 22:31:39 even if they don't draw much power Jan 17 22:31:52 bhima: it doesnt need usb at all to work Jan 17 22:32:03 bhima: so whats the difference between my hd and his keyboard? Jan 17 22:32:05 xorAxAx, has Chuck Norris scared up your drive so much that it spins out of being scared ?-D Jan 17 22:32:06 OK. I suggest, we stop here unless we have the first developer models in our hands ? Jan 17 22:32:19 xoraxax: the USB driver components probably need 5v. Jan 17 22:32:20 xkr47: yes, it was made by chuck norris Jan 17 22:32:23 And Chuck Norris cheats ! Jan 17 22:32:34 It's common for the driver components on the device to be bus powered. Jan 17 22:32:38 Chuck Norris is capable to burn ants with a glass, even at night ! Jan 17 22:32:40 bhima: then why does TiredMac's keyboard work with his zaurusses? Jan 17 22:32:41 TiredMac, you getting tired already ?-) Jan 17 22:32:51 Yer Jan 17 22:32:53 :-) Jan 17 22:32:59 yer? Jan 17 22:33:05 as in yen? :) Jan 17 22:33:07 Yep, Yes, Ja Jan 17 22:33:09 xoraxax: some things don't follow the spec. Jan 17 22:33:11 * xkr47 looks at Mini-AB receptor and compares to Mini-A receptor Jan 17 22:33:17 Somebody found a hub that gives upstream power. Jan 17 22:33:21 slight but noticable differencies Jan 17 22:33:21 TiredMac: are you from saxony? Jan 17 22:33:32 Nope, lower-saxony, Hannover Jan 17 22:33:42 in hannover, you say yer? Jan 17 22:33:58 Nope. It's just a US term i get used to... Jan 17 22:34:00 * xorAxAx never heard yer :) Jan 17 22:34:09 there is y'all though Jan 17 22:34:12 Shorter form of "yeah" Jan 17 22:34:15 it means something different though :) Jan 17 22:34:23 huh ? Jan 17 22:34:33 its like hi to you all Jan 17 22:34:39 lol there's drawings in this pdf of trying to put in plugs the wrong way, proving it cannot happen! :DD Jan 17 22:34:45 if the usb device just needs to be able to sense a voltage on the usb power pin of the phone, (ie the device has its own external power), then it would be easy to put a diode from the usb data out of the phone and then a capacitor to ground. That would provide a very low current 5v rail Jan 17 22:35:03 could even put those components into the usb plug maybe Jan 17 22:35:10 Everything happens. I had a customer plugging his VGA cable in the serial port. Everything fits with force ! Jan 17 22:35:25 TiredMac, just one ?-) Jan 17 22:35:26 * Stephmw winces Jan 17 22:35:44 I'm glad, we're out of the PC business since a few years ;-=) Jan 17 22:35:45 psi, just force the diode through the cable at the right spot :)) Jan 17 22:35:52 hehe Jan 17 22:36:08 the trick would be getting the system to start Jan 17 22:36:24 cos until the phone sends some data, the cap wont be charged Jan 17 22:36:38 and it wont sent data until it thinks there is something on the port to send it too Jan 17 22:36:39 "first thing I do when I get the phone is to measure the voltage pin voltage and shut up all rumors" :) Jan 17 22:36:52 Same here Jan 17 22:37:04 And start to write a useful manual ;-) Jan 17 22:37:24 TiredMac: whoa. Jan 17 22:37:27 back up there Jan 17 22:37:31 a *manual*? Jan 17 22:37:41 you heaten. Jan 17 22:37:44 For our EU customers Jan 17 22:37:45 I bet you use a Mac. Jan 17 22:37:48 * Stephmw hides Jan 17 22:37:55 ;) Jan 17 22:38:01 *heathen even... damn left hands Jan 17 22:38:03 Nope, i must admit, i work with Windows XP on a PC Jan 17 22:38:37 Mac is just a Marc who loses the "r" 27 years ago :-( Jan 17 22:39:23 sorry, was away working again. Jan 17 22:39:30 wonder if we could get a usb->bt dongle, and attach a 2.4g (802.11) RF amp to it with a large external antenna, that might allow us to use BT from anyway around the house just like wifi Jan 17 22:39:45 Stephmw, you have two left ?-) Jan 17 22:39:52 BT may work, but WiFi will not Jan 17 22:40:00 In my experience, and that of others, the USB driver chips on devices always need power from the host. Jan 17 22:40:06 xkr47: feels that way Jan 17 22:40:12 yea, i know, it wills till be BT Jan 17 22:40:12 but the range should be boosted alot Jan 17 22:40:12 But why would you use a BT dongle if BT is included ? Jan 17 22:40:18 xkr47: but really, I just type like shit this late Jan 17 22:40:34 TiredMac, no, for the other end of the BT connection Jan 17 22:40:44 to get the neo onto your home network Jan 17 22:40:59 Stephmw, don't worry.. I have shit-english babelfish in my eyes Jan 17 22:41:08 Even if you're miles away ? Interesting ;-) Jan 17 22:41:20 na, it wouldnt make it that far Jan 17 22:41:36 but it would boost it above the 30meter max of bt class 2 Jan 17 22:41:39 But that WOULD be interesting ;-) Jan 17 22:42:00 you could probably do miles if you used a directional antenna at on end Jan 17 22:42:10 but the problem would be the return signal from the phone Jan 17 22:42:18 Correct Jan 17 22:42:25 interesting stuff copypasted from the community mailing list: http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/openmoko_xdpyinfo Jan 17 22:42:48 The directional antenna would be useful for both ways. Jan 17 22:43:27 if you really want to cut a hole in the neo casing to add the wires Jan 17 22:43:29 (163x217 millimeters) Jan 17 22:43:33 pretty large screen Jan 17 22:43:36 Psi, what wires ?-) Jan 17 22:43:45 for external bt antenna ?-) Jan 17 22:43:48 yes Jan 17 22:43:49 But 75 dpi sucks :-O Jan 17 22:44:45 it's wrong.. the screen really isn't 217x163 millimeters ;)) Jan 17 22:44:48 a 2.4G wifi rf amp should work well for BT, same frequency Jan 17 22:45:14 * Stephmw whips out the V12 for power Jan 17 22:45:27 xkr47: of course Jan 17 22:45:42 Psi: it wouldn't be legal, however, without approval. Jan 17 22:46:11 its legal for use on wifi Jan 17 22:46:47 We had one of the guys of the world record WiFi thingy visiting us last year. That was a hell of a WiFi card ;-) Jan 17 22:47:03 im talking about the retail available 2.4GB amps Jan 17 22:47:12 sorry, 2.4Ghz Jan 17 22:47:15 It's legal for use on a specific wifi card with a specific antenna. Jan 17 22:47:34 Stephmw, that's nothing, my training bicycle outputs more power when I use it! Jan 17 22:47:56 Yep. But who wants to ride a bicycle just for going online ? Jan 17 22:47:59 bhima, all the amps here say "Connects to any 2.4Ghz Wi-Fi device like.." Jan 17 22:48:28 Psi: What FCC approvals do they have? Jan 17 22:48:41 There's only one Jan 17 22:48:56 dunno, but im in NZ, so different laws to US Jan 17 22:49:08 Oooops. Ok Jan 17 22:49:32 Normally it's : If it has CE than it complies with FCC and the rest of the world Jan 17 22:50:21 European regulations are the hardest to met. Jan 17 22:59:44 is this for real ? Jan 17 23:00:18 No, it's all a bad dream. Go back to sleep. Jan 17 23:00:26 *lol* Jan 17 23:01:02 And don't forget to take the RED pill ;-) Jan 17 23:01:18 Aw hell, take them both. More interesting that way. Jan 17 23:01:25 The FCC rules require only approved antennas and anything else. Jan 17 23:01:33 You can't hook up your own wifi antenna legally. Jan 17 23:01:35 <|Melkman|> and no, it won't work with Verizon.... Jan 17 23:02:04 |Melkman| Why ? Jan 17 23:02:29 when is the hardware gonna be available for purchase ? Jan 17 23:02:51 see topic Jan 17 23:03:09 <|Melkman|> Verizon is not GSM... Jan 17 23:03:17 Good point :D Jan 17 23:03:20 * xkr47 loads the usb 2.0 specification Jan 17 23:06:58 if you hooked up a 2.4Ghz wifi amp to a BT device, it would work exactly the same, only the data would be different, so i really dont see how it could cause any legal problems Jan 17 23:07:17 Psi: In the US it would be absolutely illegal. Jan 17 23:07:19 lol.. "Who do I talk to ask them to include WiFi connectivity with the OpenMoko? I'll sell my body parts to get hold of such a device. " Jan 17 23:07:46 Psi: You _must_ get the _specific_ transmitter and antenna approved, period. Jan 17 23:08:56 When Linksys wanted to make high gain antenans for their gear, they submitted separate test results for all three or four antennas, on each of something like 7 or so base stations. Jan 17 23:09:15 There are rules about spurious emissions, as well. Jan 17 23:09:35 WHat if the particular BT chipset had spurious emissions that are close to the limit? Amp it up --> greater out of band emissions. Jan 17 23:09:39 good night all! Jan 17 23:09:45 I'm not saying they're going to kick your door down or anything. Jan 17 23:09:45 good n8 Jan 17 23:10:31 They're just not letting you put the nice FCC mark on it ;-) Jan 17 23:11:48 If you had a ham radio license, you could re-certify it that way, but you'd need to turn off encryption and so on. Jan 17 23:16:48 Hi geeks Jan 17 23:17:02 Hi Jan 17 23:17:38 I have read about the phone...can I make some questions? Jan 17 23:17:58 don' Jan 17 23:18:07 don't ask to ask. go ahead and someone may answer Jan 17 23:18:22 k Jan 17 23:18:26 *lol* good point Jan 17 23:19:08 How will I be able to buy it? How much will it cost? Jan 17 23:19:36 via FIC directly. 350 USD Jan 17 23:19:44 as for when... noone knows yet Jan 17 23:20:05 np got no money now by now ;D Jan 17 23:20:17 hehe, sounds familiar Jan 17 23:20:21 yeah Jan 17 23:20:23 no money for toys :/ Jan 17 23:20:34 but lots of money for precious things for wifey Jan 17 23:20:35 money for nothing cheeks for free Jan 17 23:20:36 *sigh* Jan 17 23:20:42 Shoes ? Jan 17 23:20:51 shoes, bags, costumes Jan 17 23:20:55 lol Jan 17 23:21:04 Sounds familiar Jan 17 23:21:21 proprietary shoes,bags,costumes ;D Jan 17 23:21:50 so expensive Jan 17 23:22:24 anyway ... since when this have been developing? Jan 17 23:24:52 * mickeyl can't answer that Jan 17 23:24:56 k Jan 17 23:25:25 you can read LaF0rge and my weblog to get a rough idea Jan 17 23:26:12 mickeyl, url? Jan 17 23:26:29 http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/blog/ Jan 17 23:26:51 and Jan 17 23:27:02 http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/ Jan 17 23:27:08 in my opinion the website should show more about the phone...photos of the right profile...and all the info you need when you look for a phone Jan 17 23:27:15 thank you mickeyl Jan 17 23:27:19 np Jan 17 23:27:32 Carna: i agree... but maybe the case is not finished? Jan 17 23:27:34 anyway I like the logo very much and the content Jan 17 23:27:38 ah ok ;D Jan 17 23:27:49 @@- Jan 17 23:28:05 yes, logo is very nice indeed! Jan 17 23:33:54 mmm last question,then I'm going to leave Jan 17 23:34:23 about the battery...how long does it stay on? Jan 17 23:35:16 unfortunately that's not clear yet. battery just recently was delivered :) Jan 17 23:35:25 i hope we know soon Jan 17 23:35:28 (next week or so) Jan 17 23:35:28 mmm k Jan 17 23:35:59 anyway I hope it works longer than one day or two on stand by Jan 17 23:36:21 that would be the goal Jan 17 23:36:29 but it's tough Jan 17 23:36:30 k Jan 17 23:36:52 good night Jan 17 23:36:55 ;D Jan 17 23:36:57 g'night Jan 17 23:36:59 good idea btw. Jan 17 23:53:09 * ciastek is back (gone 00:00:44) Jan 17 23:53:11 * ciastek is away: I'm busy Jan 18 00:00:33 good night all Jan 18 00:07:14 recently reached the project page :) Jan 18 00:09:40 so OpenMoko is as far as I understand the OS of the neo1973 mobile phone right? Jan 18 00:12:25 correct Jan 18 00:12:29 ...i think Jan 18 00:12:33 i'm new too ;-) Jan 18 00:13:28 hello, how can i contribute, i could code (i want to learn to code mobile apps) and i could translate from english to spanish Jan 18 00:14:53 imcsk8: there isn't anything to currently due, other then wait Jan 18 00:15:00 no code released currently Jan 18 00:15:08 FIC is mostly working towards getting the initial release out Jan 18 00:15:16 I am argentinian so I also can translate :) Jan 18 00:15:50 bien!! Jan 18 00:16:28 Zer0Her0: so we have to wait until de release to start the contributions?? Jan 18 00:16:45 howewer I don't know programming languages (I only know BASIC ATM) Jan 18 00:17:09 also in what programming language will be written openmoko? Jan 18 00:18:36 I like this project because I am tired of too many propietary mobile phones Jan 18 00:18:53 imcsk8: no way of knowing for sure Jan 18 00:18:57 but it looks that way Jan 18 00:19:03 'mobile phones too need to meet open source' :) Jan 18 00:19:28 agreed Jan 18 00:23:37 Zer0Her0: could be a good start to read the openembedded docs? Jan 18 00:24:32 imcsk8: i really don't know, i'm new here as well Jan 18 00:24:35 i'm guessing sure Jan 18 00:35:14 no camera? much people will complain about it :( Jan 18 00:36:37 don't matter, I never understand those brainless people that complains that a 2mp camera for a *mobile phone* is too low Jan 18 00:37:14 sensors in mobile phones are too small and you never get good pictures no matter what Jan 18 00:38:55 with an vga camera I am satisfeed equally but equally I think that camera isn't necesary Jan 18 00:39:13 "if you want photos buy a real camera" Jan 18 00:40:40 also infrared port is too obsolet for putting that into this phone, besides the old phones factor (irda but not BT) Jan 18 00:41:24 but no matter, this phone will beat iPhone easily Jan 18 00:43:48 also the prices (besides I will never get it because here are too many looser people that doesn't have another idea than stole things) will be lower and without contract, plus earlier release dates, this will be the best phone ever :) Jan 18 00:47:36 also will be there mobile phones with another designs? like a clamshell medium-class one, or an low-end candybar? Jan 18 00:49:10 because I have got some crappy mockups that can be used for future low/middle-end phones Jan 18 00:54:55 also here gps wouldn't work because there will be no maps of my country Jan 18 01:00:13 /exit Jan 18 01:13:15 nonick01: i'm sure if you asked nicely someone would write you a BASIC compiler :) Jan 18 01:14:01 I don't asked it, I just told it Jan 18 01:17:59 there is a open source proyect called FreeBASIC that can be ported to the neo1973 Jan 18 01:43:10 * rwhitby hopes the Friday announcement will be done in the GMT+13:45 timezone ... (which is only 8 hours away) Jan 18 01:44:17 hehe Jan 18 02:12:40 no wifi? better because it eats the battery:) Jan 18 02:27:17 ok, enough sleep for tonight **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Jan 18 02:59:57 2007