**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 23 02:59:59 2007
Jan 23 03:01:02 <aloril> hmm.. I have better question: IRC poll: whatever license(s) is/are selected for official wiki, lets use that for unofficial too
Jan 23 03:01:50 <aloril> anybody disagree with list_license(official wiki)==list_license(unofficial wiki) ?
Jan 23 03:03:24 <aloril> meta license: use same license as official site will use ;-)
Jan 23 03:04:34 <aloril> anybody here who as contributed to unofficial wiki? are you OK for copying your content to official wiki under whatever license is selected for official wiki?
Jan 23 03:04:57 <rwhitby> yes
Jan 23 03:05:27 <rwhitby> (I did all of one line so far :-)
Jan 23 03:09:11 <noidd> aloril: You have my full consent to migrate my content when the time comes
Jan 23 03:09:45 * Zer0HiT quickly adds stuff
Jan 23 03:09:46 <Zer0HiT> nope you can't move mine
Jan 23 03:09:47 <Zer0HiT> :-D
Jan 23 03:10:25 <aloril> noidd: umm.. you probably should s/You/Whoever is going to actually do that/ ;-)  (as far as I understand FIC has/will have employee for official wiki)
Jan 23 03:10:55 <noidd> ah, gotcha
Jan 23 03:11:07 <Ycros> heh, you can always rewrite anything you don't get permission for
Jan 23 03:12:45 <aloril> Ycros: yeah, but at this point I think only need permission from 1-3 persons (whoever set up wiki is probably responsible for most content and possible 1-2 other persons has made major edits)
Jan 23 03:14:07 <tchuladdiass>   The only edit I made is to the software section / input methods / qwikscript / quickwriting section.
Jan 23 03:14:26 <tchuladdiass> (got my permission)
Jan 23 03:14:55 <Ycros> the solution is to assign all copyright over to one legal entity
Jan 23 03:15:14 <WillySilly> Like Microsoft
Jan 23 03:15:25 <Ycros> ...
Jan 23 03:15:28 <Ycros> like many projects
Jan 23 03:15:59 <tchuladdiass> I've got a question for any developers here.  I posted earlier to the mailing list, but the thread got sidetracked... does anyone see any merit to including the 2e programming language as a standard for any of the openmoko apps? (lang2e.sourceforge.net)
Jan 23 03:16:27 <Ycros> never heard of it
Jan 23 03:16:35 <tchuladdiass> If there is interest in 2e, I'll be glad to pour some development effort into it to taylor it to the openmoko environment
Jan 23 03:17:10 <tchuladdiass> A lot of people haven't heard of it, since it is relativily new.  But it may also be too immature yet to make a call.
Jan 23 03:17:15 <Ycros> where would you use it?
Jan 23 03:17:38 <tchuladdiass> It is a general purpose language, you can use it in the same situations as perl, pyton, or tcl.
Jan 23 03:17:45 <Ycros> right
Jan 23 03:17:53 <tchuladdiass> But it currently lacks some function libraries.
Jan 23 03:18:02 <Ycros> so why would I use it over something that's more common, such as those others
Jan 23 03:18:14 <Ycros> which do have vast libraries of existing code
Jan 23 03:18:44 <tchuladdiass> It is very small and light weight (a couple thousand lines of code is all), and for imbedded purposes the language syntax sort of "disappears".
Jan 23 03:18:55 <Ycros> lua is pretty small
Jan 23 03:19:26 <tchuladdiass> I've started briefly looking at lua, and it does also appear to fit the bill.
Jan 23 03:19:35 <tchuladdiass> But I'm partial to 2e :-)
Jan 23 03:19:55 <tchuladdiass> Just wanted to know if it is worth me pouring more time into it at this time.
Jan 23 03:20:24 <cying> lua
Jan 23 03:20:25 <cying> lua
Jan 23 03:20:39 <tchuladdiass> So far I've had a few positive feedbacks from elsewhere (whenever someone has looked at it), since it does have some unique features.
Jan 23 03:20:45 <cying> lua has a good track record
Jan 23 03:20:55 <Ycros> lua is way more common
Jan 23 03:21:03 <Ycros> and widely used
Jan 23 03:21:58 <aloril> I have read mention of dbus, if I recall this correctly and it is indeed used, then you could use any scripting language that has support for dbus
Jan 23 03:22:05 <Ycros> heh
Jan 23 03:22:21 <tchuladdiass> The main features of 2e is that the syntax is mostly an expression evaluator (i.e., no language statements, just operators and operands).
Jan 23 03:22:28 <Ycros> yeah
Jan 23 03:22:50 <cying> uh huh
Jan 23 03:22:52 <tchuladdiass> So I figured it could be a good imbedded language since the learning curve is very small.
Jan 23 03:23:27 <cying> but what applications would you write with it?
Jan 23 03:23:30 <tchuladdiass> But that is only my opinion.  So far I've only got a few feedbacks directly (over the last couple months), but they all have been very enthusiastic.
Jan 23 03:23:40 <cying> that it would be better suited towards over other embedded languages?
Jan 23 03:23:49 * cying is a pragmatist.
Jan 23 03:24:08 <tchuladdiass> I was thinking of mostly either using it as an embedded scripting language for things like an email client, or the phonebook dialer / manager
Jan 23 03:24:15 <Ycros> cying: indeed, so am I
Jan 23 03:24:42 <cying> tchuladdiass: why would it be better suited than another language though?
Jan 23 03:24:47 <tchuladdiass> To use it as an embedded language, you just call some macros to read/write to user variables, and assign specific application functions as callable from the user script.
Jan 23 03:25:19 <tchuladdiass> crying: it is simpler than some others (as mentioned, a very small learning curve), since it provides just the basics
Jan 23 03:25:29 <tchuladdiass> and any advanced functionality is reserved for library functions.
Jan 23 03:25:35 <noidd> oh, is the author of 2e on the channel?
Jan 23 03:25:45 <cying> simpler is a subjective observation
Jan 23 03:25:56 <tchuladdiass> yep, it is me (which is why I mentioned that i'm partial)
Jan 23 03:25:58 <cying> since from my pov, it lacks a well developed standard library
Jan 23 03:26:21 <cying> and maturity, since i don't see any existing projects that have used it
Jan 23 03:26:30 <tchuladdiass> Yes, it is subjective, which is why I'm soliciting opinions on what would make it better.
Jan 23 03:26:30 <cying> (well known or semi- known)
Jan 23 03:26:39 <cying> OH
Jan 23 03:26:51 <noidd> I saw your post - good work - I'm very impressed.
Jan 23 03:26:55 <cying> could you port its functionality into another embedded language?
Jan 23 03:27:17 <Ycros> or io :)~
Jan 23 03:27:24 <tchuladdiass> I'm not "pushing" it, just offering it up as an alternative, and am willing to continue to develop it with user input
Jan 23 03:27:50 <tchuladdiass> The main functionality of it is sort of a lack of functionality -- the "simple" concept.
Jan 23 03:28:13 <tchuladdiass> For example, instead of including if/else and flow control, I use a C style inline conditional for if/els processing
Jan 23 03:28:15 <cying> are you the author?
Jan 23 03:28:18 <noidd> I support all new languages - especially when they come at it from a different angle.
Jan 23 03:28:29 <noidd> The only difference between most languages is syntax
Jan 23 03:28:34 <noidd> which is just completely arbitrary
Jan 23 03:28:35 <tchuladdiass> and a modified form of the conditional as an iterative conditional.
Jan 23 03:28:46 <tchuladdiass> yes, I'm the author.
Jan 23 03:28:49 <cying> at least academically
Jan 23 03:28:55 <cying> pragmatically, a lot is different about languages
Jan 23 03:29:01 <noidd> arguing over python/ruby/perl is as pointless as arguing over GNU/Linux / Linux
Jan 23 03:29:02 <noidd> :-D
Jan 23 03:29:05 <cying> from implementation to extensibility to library support
Jan 23 03:29:09 * noidd segues
Jan 23 03:29:18 <Ycros> noidd: no, it's not pointless
Jan 23 03:29:25 <Ycros> some are better at particular tasks
Jan 23 03:29:32 <cying> there are huge differences aside from syntax about these languages
Jan 23 03:29:43 <noidd> I agreee completely with the statement that someone made on the list.
Jan 23 03:29:49 <tchuladdiass> noidd: the main difference with my syntax is the lack of syntax... 
Jan 23 03:30:01 <cying> like lisp?
Jan 23 03:30:02 <Ycros> there's no lack of syntax...
Jan 23 03:30:07 <noidd> I apologise for not having the author handy but what he basically said was that the strength in those languages is the libraries and modules behind them.
Jan 23 03:30:15 <noidd> Perl would be nothing without CPAN for example.
Jan 23 03:30:15 <cying> yes
Jan 23 03:30:31 <cying> i would add extensibility and implementation as well
Jan 23 03:30:35 <tchuladdiass> Think of a C style expression (algebraic syntax), but without the other control structurs.
Jan 23 03:30:49 <tchuladdiass> Instead, you have an inline conditional, and an iterative inline conditional (for looping).
Jan 23 03:30:49 <cying> like erlang?
Jan 23 03:30:52 <noidd> cying: I've done my share of h2xs :-D
Jan 23 03:31:12 <cying> h2xs?
Jan 23 03:31:34 <cying> tchuladdiass: different from erlang and haskell?
Jan 23 03:31:37 <tchuladdiass> But they are part of the expressions.  Actually, the whole script is one long expression.
Jan 23 03:31:43 <cying> like lisp.
Jan 23 03:32:04 * cying is not trying to provoke tchuladdiass... just trying to understand the differences
Jan 23 03:32:24 <tchuladdiass> It is different from haskell, in that it isn't a functional language (instead it is imparitive), and different from lisp in that it is infix not prefix notation
Jan 23 03:32:32 <tchuladdiass> crying: no problem, I'm not provoked.
Jan 23 03:32:35 <cying> ahhhh
Jan 23 03:32:36 <tchuladdiass> I welcome any comments 
Jan 23 03:32:43 <cying> so if it were prefix 2e
Jan 23 03:32:43 <noidd> we should solve the interpreter crisis by installing the parrot runtime ;-D
Jan 23 03:32:46 <tchuladdiass> just trying to keep up with the typing.
Jan 23 03:32:52 <cying> would it be like lisp?
Jan 23 03:33:03 <noidd> Parrot can run Perl, Python, Ruby and Lua :-D
Jan 23 03:33:07 <noidd> all bases covered
Jan 23 03:33:09 <cying> but not erlang
Jan 23 03:33:11 <cying> and not haskell
Jan 23 03:33:11 <tchuladdiass> I think so, except I think lisp is mostly set up where everything is a function.
Jan 23 03:33:23 <tchuladdiass> Definately not haskell, and I'm not familliar with erlang.
Jan 23 03:33:34 <cying> nono i was talking to noidd 
Jan 23 03:33:46 <tchuladdiass> sorry
Jan 23 03:33:48 <cying> tchuladdiass: but the difference is pretty subtle, isn't it?
Jan 23 03:34:06 <cying> tchuladdiass: most of the advantages i get from 2e, i probably could get from lisp as well...
Jan 23 03:34:19 <tchuladdiass> From an academic perspective, I think it is very subtle.
Jan 23 03:34:41 <cying> well
Jan 23 03:34:51 <noidd> honestly, I don't come from an academic background
Jan 23 03:34:53 <tchuladdiass> But from a usability perspective, people who are used to programming in C, or other standard imperative languages, it may be an easier transition
Jan 23 03:34:59 <noidd> I come from the school of pragmatism
Jan 23 03:35:11 <noidd> but I love seeing different methods of solving the same problems
Jan 23 03:35:16 <cying> tchuladdiass: from a pragmatist's point of view, i would be more inclined to start a project in lisp rather than 2e all things being equal, because:
Jan 23 03:35:20 <noidd> even tho no-one has actually solved it yet
Jan 23 03:35:20 <Ycros> tchuladdiass: how do you call C or other binary code from within 2e?
Jan 23 03:35:37 <cying> tchuladdiass: lisp has several mature implementations, and a fairly mature set of libraries and modules
Jan 23 03:35:45 <Ycros> as in
Jan 23 03:35:47 <noidd> tch: interfacing to C is essential since you would need Gtk language bindings
Jan 23 03:35:53 <Ycros> is it trivial to extend 2e
Jan 23 03:36:09 <cying> for openmoko that is
Jan 23 03:36:36 <tchuladdiass> ycros: Currently, you have to write a "binder" function to call a C library function.  So I was planning on providing a set of gtk binders for common functions (which is where I'll need to solicit input, on which ones to target first).
Jan 23 03:36:50 <tchuladdiass> But I'm planning on providing an ffi implimentation.
Jan 23 03:36:59 <Ycros> tchuladdiass: you may be able to autogenerate bindings
Jan 23 03:37:23 <cying> oh boy
Jan 23 03:37:39 <tchuladdiass> I was looking at porting c/invoke to 2e.
Jan 23 03:37:45 <tchuladdiass> (based on a users request)
Jan 23 03:37:55 <cying> tchuladdiass: my advice to you as language author
Jan 23 03:38:00 <cying> tchuladdiass: having written several frameworks in my time
Jan 23 03:38:02 <Ycros> the guy that is doing the new java-gnome bindings is autogenerating them
Jan 23 03:38:10 <Ycros> you could take a look at his work
Jan 23 03:38:12 <cying> tchuladdiass: is to write a fairly complete app in 2e, extending 2e where you need it
Jan 23 03:38:17 <Ycros> yeah
Jan 23 03:38:26 <noidd> tch: the Perl bindings were all autogenerated
Jan 23 03:38:27 <noidd> they have to be
Jan 23 03:38:36 <Ycros> build a useful app for 2e and people will come
Jan 23 03:38:41 <noidd> way too many object and attributes to do by hand
Jan 23 03:38:46 <rwhitby> tchuladdiass: my input: if you build it, they will come.  contribute your new language to OpenEmbedded right now, and it will be ready for someone to ipkg install when the Neo comes out.
Jan 23 03:38:57 <Ycros> gtk already spits out metadata files
Jan 23 03:38:57 <noidd> we're talking thousands of methods, objects and attributes, inheritence etc
Jan 23 03:39:05 <Ycros> which is what people are using to generate bindings from
Jan 23 03:39:14 <cying> well
Jan 23 03:39:22 <cying> i come from the school of minimalist language design
Jan 23 03:39:24 <tchuladdiass> crying: Thanks, that is actually on my plate.  I've got a network backup system that I'm planning on implimenting in 2e.
Jan 23 03:39:50 <cying> so i would focus on the app first, and add features as the need becomes apparent
Jan 23 03:39:52 <tchuladdiass> Only a few more built-in functions to code (relating to file i/o)
Jan 23 03:39:54 <cying> and avoid autogenerating stuff
Jan 23 03:40:19 <cying> tchuladdiass: i encourage you to do something that can't be done easily in another language
Jan 23 03:40:20 <tchuladdiass> And I was planning on doing a curses based binding to it.
Jan 23 03:40:29 <cying> tchuladdiass: if you really want 2e to take off
Jan 23 03:40:56 * cying notes the spelling of his nick and wonders if he should change it.
Jan 23 03:41:26 <tchuladdiass> Oops, sorry about that cying (not crying :-)
Jan 23 03:41:37 <cying> :) no worries
Jan 23 03:41:41 * tchuladdiass types funny
Jan 23 03:42:45 <tchuladdiass> So far, it includes a couple of demo apps.  One generates the mandelbrot set in ascii (slowly), the second one generates solutions to the Cracker Barrol peg game
Jan 23 03:42:52 <Ycros> I typed "cr" then kept hitting tab furiously
Jan 23 03:43:15 <cying> tchuladdiass: yea... for me these are pretty toy apps
Jan 23 03:43:19 <Ycros> I blame pattern recognition in the human brain
Jan 23 03:43:34 <cying> tchuladdiass: which i understand is something you're working on, but choose what you do carefully
Jan 23 03:43:43 <cying> tchuladdiass: or you may end up being a me too niche language
Jan 23 03:44:04 <cying> tchuladdiass: it'll also reveal to you the true applications that 2e will excel at
Jan 23 03:44:08 <cying> excell
Jan 23 03:44:09 <tchuladdiass> The only "unique" featrue of 2e is the inclusion of an iterative conditional operator (looping version of the C inline conditional).
Jan 23 03:44:20 <tchuladdiass> That is the one thing that has people excided.
Jan 23 03:44:39 <cying> yea
Jan 23 03:44:41 <cying> well
Jan 23 03:44:47 <cying> to be honest, it didn't really excite me
Jan 23 03:44:55 <noidd> but that's still just syntax
Jan 23 03:45:46 <tchuladdiass> It is just syntax, but it adds one level that would be more lines to impliment in other languages.  The "false" condition of is evaluated if the condition being tested never was true, so it can be handy for error handling in those situations.
Jan 23 03:46:07 <tchuladdiass> Doesn't come up that often, but I've got some examples in my tutorial documentaion up on sourceforge.
Jan 23 03:46:35 <tchuladdiass> The other thing is that it is easily embeddable like tcl, but the language syntax is more familliar.
Jan 23 03:46:46 <cying> to C programmers
Jan 23 03:46:54 <cying> er, imperative C-like language programmers
Jan 23 03:47:00 <tchuladdiass> Agreed.
Jan 23 03:47:19 <tchuladdiass> The other place where I see this syntax being useful is for example as a scripting language for spreadsheet type applicatons.
Jan 23 03:47:40 <cying> but you need to demonstrate to me that a complete app can be written in this language
Jan 23 03:47:47 <cying> and truly leverage and use the language features to its advantage
Jan 23 03:48:00 <cying> like a spreadsheet application
Jan 23 03:48:22 <tchuladdiass> For example, spreadsheets often contain formulas that are just an algebraic expression.  But some formulas need some minor programming in it, so the inline conditional along with the iterative conditional could make it easier to use in that situation.\
Jan 23 03:48:26 <cying> but i fear a lot of stuff will be needed for a spreadsheet application
Jan 23 03:48:32 <tchuladdiass> (easire for non-programmers, was my hope)
Jan 23 03:48:43 <cying> i dunno
Jan 23 03:48:46 <noidd> there are non-programmers? :-)
Jan 23 03:48:52 <tchuladdiass> You mean, like create the entire spreadsheet from 2e, and not just the embedded language?
Jan 23 03:48:53 <cying> with SUM(), MAX(), MIN(), etc...
Jan 23 03:49:20 <tchuladdiass> Oh, I see, have a standard library that would be usefule for that application.
Jan 23 03:49:23 <cying> whatever you intend its best application to be
Jan 23 03:49:28 <cying> no
Jan 23 03:49:31 <cying> i mean
Jan 23 03:49:44 <cying> existing spreadsheet syntax isn't really VERY broken to the point of needing a new language invented
Jan 23 03:49:46 <cying> IMO
Jan 23 03:50:50 <tchuladdiass> The other thing that will help it come to light, I've got some object-oriented ideas to add in, but I was hoping to avoid the mistakes of other languages object oriented additions.
Jan 23 03:50:55 <noidd> meh, I could go either way on that argument
Jan 23 03:51:00 <cying> hehe
Jan 23 03:51:11 <cying> noidd: do you think 2e is the answer though?
Jan 23 03:51:28 <tchuladdiass> I think it can be _an_ answer, if not the answer.
Jan 23 03:51:34 <noidd> tch: fundimentally I like the way you've approached the problem.  I've bookmarked your site and forwarded it onto some of my computer linquistic friends
Jan 23 03:51:44 <cying> tchuladdiass: yes but you don't want to be _an_ answer if you want your language to be competitive
Jan 23 03:51:57 <noidd> I can't see it being from what I can tell
Jan 23 03:52:00 <cying> tchuladdiass: you want to be _the_ answer for something and focus your energy on that
Jan 23 03:52:09 <noidd> I don't think the language is specific to that domain
Jan 23 03:52:24 <noidd> a "domain specific language" is what cying is suggesting I believe.
Jan 23 03:52:28 <tchuladdiass> I was going to hope for being a competitive answer, but I'll set my sites higher :-)
Jan 23 03:52:50 <noidd> tch: Do you want my honest opinion?
Jan 23 03:52:56 <cying> noidd: no, not really.. just that tchuladdiass should solve a critical application need
Jan 23 03:52:58 <tchuladdiass> sure
Jan 23 03:53:16 <noidd> The main advantage I see with what you did is its sheer size and flexibility.
Jan 23 03:53:25 <noidd> small size, flexible, nice syntax
Jan 23 03:53:26 <tchuladdiass> By domain specific, you mean like how tcl is best known for tcl/tk as an easy to use gui scripting language?
Jan 23 03:53:35 <noidd> its probably pretty fast too - I've not benchmarked it.
Jan 23 03:53:51 <tchuladdiass> In computing the mandelbrot set, it is about half the speed of perl.
Jan 23 03:53:56 <noidd> if you'd got the word out 3 years ago - you could have been lua
Jan 23 03:54:05 <cying> tchuladdiass: more like how php is best known for web development as a highly productive syntax for web template generation.
Jan 23 03:54:23 <noidd> lua has the "small and efficient" market cornered
Jan 23 03:54:24 <tchuladdiass> But I see where I can improve it (I've profiled it), and could make it maybe only 15% slower than perl.
Jan 23 03:54:31 <cying> tchuladdiass: try haskell
Jan 23 03:54:52 <tchuladdiass> I've been looking at haskell docs, but couldn't quiet get my head around it (one of the reasons I wrote 2e)
Jan 23 03:54:53 <tchuladdiass> :-)
Jan 23 03:54:54 <noidd> tch: try writing a compiler for parrot in your language
Jan 23 03:54:58 <noidd> (seriously)
Jan 23 03:55:14 <cying> errr
Jan 23 03:55:15 <tchuladdiass> What about doing a 2e interpreter written in 2e?
Jan 23 03:55:19 <cying> no
Jan 23 03:55:26 <noidd> parrot is a register based VM that has compilers for 26 languages.
Jan 23 03:55:29 <noidd> and its ammazingly fast
Jan 23 03:55:39 <cying> parrot have a JIT yet?
Jan 23 03:55:48 <noidd> I don't know
Jan 23 03:55:48 <tchuladdiass> Oh, you mean compile 2e down to parrot.
Jan 23 03:55:56 <noidd> its been a while since i've been near the project
Jan 23 03:56:03 <noidd> they still owe me an op-code tho :-D
Jan 23 03:56:14 <noidd> (I bid on a Parrot op-code in a charity auction)
Jan 23 03:56:14 <cying> oh dear
Jan 23 03:56:34 <noidd> hehe
Jan 23 03:56:34 <cying> no wonder it's taking them so long
Jan 23 03:56:46 <noidd> they're working hard on it
Jan 23 03:56:49 * cjb thinks it should be the pythonsucks opcode.
Jan 23 03:56:53 <noidd> its works pretty well actually
Jan 23 03:57:08 <cying> register VMs are pretty fast
Jan 23 03:57:10 <noidd> hell - They have an experimental parrot VM in javascript
Jan 23 03:57:23 <noidd> so you can (for insane example)
Jan 23 03:57:24 * cying looks down sadly.
Jan 23 03:57:26 <tchuladdiass> Well, the way I designed the 2e interpreter, the parser converts it to a postfix notation internally, then evaluates the postfix stack.
Jan 23 03:57:49 <noidd> have faith cying :-)
Jan 23 03:57:51 <tchuladdiass> So as long as I can go from the postfix stack to parrot, it should be easy.
Jan 23 03:58:03 <cying> yea
Jan 23 03:58:04 <cying> but
Jan 23 03:58:11 <cjb> noidd: Not quite; the parrot VM has a JavaScript target.
Jan 23 03:58:17 <tchuladdiass> The main area I'd have to recode is the memory handling.
Jan 23 03:58:30 <cying> tchuladdiass: the point is to get your language adopted more
Jan 23 03:58:33 <tchuladdiass> (which happens to be an area that could use a performance boost).
Jan 23 03:58:34 <noidd> mono is another possibility of course
Jan 23 03:59:02 <noidd> cjb: yup
Jan 23 03:59:10 <cying> tchuladdiass: and for that, you need to effectively demonstrate that it solves a problem better, whether niche or common problem
Jan 23 03:59:31 <cying> tchuladdiass: and if you want to follow the OSX model of framework development, you need to write an app that does that.
Jan 23 04:00:21 <tchuladdiass> So next on my list should be at a minimum creating a UI library (possibly one that will bind to multiple gui backends), then start coding some good apps in it.
Jan 23 04:00:41 <cying> tchuladdiass: maybe... by application, i mean "something that does something"
Jan 23 04:00:54 <cying> tchuladdiass: for example, a compression program has a CLI UI
Jan 23 04:01:00 <cying> tchuladdiass: so you don't need a GUI there
Jan 23 04:01:00 <noidd> tch: what are your aims for the language?
Jan 23 04:01:06 <tchuladdiass> The first app on my plate is a good client/server backup utility.  
Jan 23 04:01:33 <tchuladdiass> I've also got some additional loadable libraries that I'm working on.  One is a vector graphics library
Jan 23 04:01:58 <cying> how will your client server backup utility work better than what else is there?
Jan 23 04:02:09 <tchuladdiass> Another would be hooks into a database backend (initially using sqlite).
Jan 23 04:02:10 <cying> faster? better compression, etc...
Jan 23 04:02:36 <tchuladdiass> Oh, I've got a whole topic on that.  There is a bunch of areas for improvement.  For example:
Jan 23 04:03:28 <tchuladdiass> When compared to TSM, I want to do incrimentals forever like TSM does, but I also want to impliment "standard" retention scheduls (TSM only does "keep x versions of each file").
Jan 23 04:03:47 <tchuladdiass> Basically, it will impliment normal expiration schedules, along with "synthetic" backups.
Jan 23 04:04:26 <tchuladdiass> Other backup systems I've looked at (open source or commercial) are geared towards one paradime or another, but seldom cross paradimes easily.
Jan 23 04:04:45 <tchuladdiass> For example, most are geared to tape backups, so it is difficult to get them to work with disk based targets.
Jan 23 04:04:58 <cying> i get you
Jan 23 04:05:00 <cying> so
Jan 23 04:05:08 <cying> will 2e make this happen better than any other language?
Jan 23 04:05:19 <tchuladdiass> (which is why some companies are making loads of money creating items such as tape emulators that use a disk backend)
Jan 23 04:05:53 <noidd> tch: If that is what you want to do - I have your PERFECT killer library
Jan 23 04:06:13 <tchuladdiass> There are some languages that would be excelent for this type of application (such as C), but take more work to use.
Jan 23 04:06:20 <noidd> an area which has zero serious competition except for C (and that's everywhere)
Jan 23 04:06:22 <tchuladdiass> Other languages are easy, but not as powerful (shell script)
Jan 23 04:06:34 <tchuladdiass> noidd: Ok I'm interested.
Jan 23 04:06:40 <noidd> FUSE
Jan 23 04:06:48 <tchuladdiass> Good one.
Jan 23 04:06:48 <cying> oooh
Jan 23 04:06:52 <noidd> linux kernel filesystems in userspace
Jan 23 04:07:11 <noidd> make your backups appear in a mounted "filesystem"
Jan 23 04:07:11 <cying> i'm still not convinced though
Jan 23 04:07:13 <noidd> how to choose to backend them is up to you
Jan 23 04:07:16 <cying> python's pretty damn powerful
Jan 23 04:07:23 <noidd> very simple API to implement
Jan 23 04:07:36 <cying> and i don't see how 2e could be more efficient than python for something like this
Jan 23 04:07:51 <noidd> Perl has a FUSE module too but none of the implementations are pretty
Jan 23 04:07:59 <noidd> cying: depends how he presents his APIs
Jan 23 04:08:12 <noidd> I'm not saying jsut re-implement FUSe in 2e
Jan 23 04:08:26 <cying> i know
Jan 23 04:08:26 <tchuladdiass> noidd: That was on my earlier featrure list; to make a synthetic backup appeare as a mounted file system, and items are restored on-demand.
Jan 23 04:08:26 <noidd> I'm saying implement the backup visualisation in 2e
Jan 23 04:08:58 <tchuladdiass> So when you go to read a file, at the worst there will be a couple minute delay while the tape is automatically mounted from the backend server.
Jan 23 04:09:21 <noidd> one of the guys I worked with at DEC wrote a linux kernel module to do that
Jan 23 04:09:27 <noidd> he literally mounted tapes
Jan 23 04:09:33 <noidd> but it was slow and unusable
Jan 23 04:09:38 <noidd> that was 10 years ago
Jan 23 04:09:44 <noidd> technology is much improved
Jan 23 04:09:46 <tchuladdiass> I remember using something like that on msdos.
Jan 23 04:09:49 <noidd> and you have FUSE in the kernel
Jan 23 04:09:59 <tchuladdiass> It was a driver for Tallgrass tape units, I think.
Jan 23 04:10:46 <tchuladdiass> cying: re python:  I do feel that python would be a very good language for this type of application, but I have a problem with the syntax in that blocks of code are delimited by indentation level.
Jan 23 04:10:48 <noidd> I guess that's not phone related, but its an interesting domain and one where no language has really set itself apart from the others.
Jan 23 04:10:57 <tchuladdiass> (which isn't elegant in my opinion)
Jan 23 04:11:13 <tchuladdiass> Well it could be phone related -- phones will need backups too.
Jan 23 04:11:17 <noidd> tch: we each have our preferences
Jan 23 04:11:25 <noidd> I like my source code to look like line-noise
Jan 23 04:11:46 <tchuladdiass> yep, and I see the advantages of python's method, but for some reason I have an issue with it (not sure why)
Jan 23 04:11:57 <tchuladdiass> I think it is because it reminds me of what would be done back in the mainframe / cobol days
Jan 23 04:12:07 <cying> yea
Jan 23 04:12:15 <tchuladdiass> (colum position sensitive code went out with puch cards :-)
Jan 23 04:12:16 <cying> but you could say the same about 2e's syntax for other things
Jan 23 04:12:26 <cying> and then we'd have a language religious war on our hands again
Jan 23 04:12:30 <noidd> I have a problem with it to.  I see the advantages but on a gut level I don't like whitespace being syntax.  I fully understand the point of view of those that do,
Jan 23 04:12:32 <cying> ... skipping that....
Jan 23 04:12:38 <noidd> Plus, I'm a tab over spaces person too
Jan 23 04:12:43 <tchuladdiass> But 2e is derived somewhat from C, and C is the god of all languages.
Jan 23 04:12:43 <noidd> vi over emacs
Jan 23 04:12:52 <tchuladdiass> vi! vi! vi!
Jan 23 04:12:57 <tchuladdiass> :-)
Jan 23 04:13:05 <noidd> C++ is an abonimation
Jan 23 04:13:13 <noidd> C has its place, and that place isn't everywhere.
Jan 23 04:13:17 <cying> yep
Jan 23 04:13:24 <aloril> another flamewar: default editor in phone ;-)
Jan 23 04:13:32 <cying> Textmate
Jan 23 04:13:37 <cjb> ema.. wait, what am I saying.
Jan 23 04:13:38 <aloril> (no, I'm not going to mail that to mailing list, just joking here ;-)
Jan 23 04:13:39 <cying> Scintilla
Jan 23 04:13:52 <cying> echo
Jan 23 04:13:53 <tchuladdiass> ed forever!
Jan 23 04:13:55 <noidd> We shouldn't be writing general applications in C.  It's way too low a level language.
Jan 23 04:13:56 <cying> ECHO
Jan 23 04:14:18 <aloril> over slow connection ed is actually one alternative I think
Jan 23 04:14:25 <noidd> For kernels, drivers, things optimized for speed - sure
Jan 23 04:15:02 <noidd> think how many security problems and SEGVs could have been avoided if we'd used high level languages for things like mail servers, dns, imap, etc
Jan 23 04:15:15 <cjb> noidd: That's interesting, but almost all of our applications *are* written in C.  Do you have an alternative? 
Jan 23 04:15:25 <noidd> we needed to use low level languages because high level languages sucked at efficency
Jan 23 04:15:26 <cying> python
Jan 23 04:15:30 <noidd> now however ...
Jan 23 04:15:30 <cying> erlang
Jan 23 04:15:33 <cying> haskell
Jan 23 04:15:34 <cying> perl
Jan 23 04:15:35 <cying> ruby
Jan 23 04:15:38 <cying> .NET
Jan 23 04:15:39 <cying> java
Jan 23 04:15:47 <tchuladdiass> I think the positioning of 2e is something that is powerful / general purpose like python, however has a more conventional syntax to it; is imbeddable like tcl, but with a more conventional syntax; and is light weight.
Jan 23 04:15:53 <noidd> cying: I'm talking about our industry in general
Jan 23 04:16:02 <noidd> I'm thinking long term revolution
Jan 23 04:16:05 <cying> tchuladdiass: i would have to disagree, but hey, it's your language.
Jan 23 04:16:13 <noidd> and I don't think the language exists yet.
Jan 23 04:16:16 <cying> ahh
Jan 23 04:16:24 <cying> noidd: *nod*
Jan 23 04:16:45 <tchuladdiass> cying: but that was only my initial purpose, it can grow in any direction that is needed.
Jan 23 04:16:56 <cjb> noidd: Ah, so we're just wan^Wtheorizing.  Okay.
Jan 23 04:16:59 <noidd> for openmoko, c/c++ is going to be the main for sure.
Jan 23 04:17:09 <cying> tchuladdiass: i disagree with your initial assertion
Jan 23 04:17:11 <noidd> I won't lie to you, I am going to write some Gtk2.pm apps for it.
Jan 23 04:17:26 <noidd> and I will get the perl runtime INCLUDING Gtk bindings within 3 Meg
Jan 23 04:17:37 <tchuladdiass> cying: you mean about the "conventional syntax"?
Jan 23 04:17:38 <noidd> and it will be as fast as C[0]
Jan 23 04:17:46 * cying checks the memory footprint on perl and whistles.
Jan 23 04:17:59 <noidd> [0] For a value of "fast" that you can't tell the difference between the reactivity of a C app vs a Gtk2.pm app.
Jan 23 04:18:06 <cying> tchuladdiass: uh huh
Jan 23 04:18:25 <noidd> 96k for each perl process
Jan 23 04:18:33 <noidd> just less than 1M shared
Jan 23 04:18:33 <tchuladdiass> It is just picky about which conventions it follows :-)
Jan 23 04:18:50 <cying> tchuladdiass: i'm not convinced
Jan 23 04:19:01 <noidd> tch: you're heading straightfor lua
Jan 23 04:19:08 <noidd> competing on its home ground.
Jan 23 04:19:09 <cying> yep
Jan 23 04:19:29 <cying> noidd: i would actually suggest a lua following in openmoko... very lean on memory
Jan 23 04:19:38 <cying> noidd: perl 5 leaks memory like a sieve
Jan 23 04:19:44 <noidd> lua is the logical choice
Jan 23 04:20:03 <noidd> even for a perl fanatic like myself, if it has Gtk bindings it should be there.
Jan 23 04:20:07 <tchuladdiass> I'll have to check out lua a bit more.
Jan 23 04:20:08 <cying> easy to understand, easy to extend, easy to embed, and small
Jan 23 04:20:14 <Ycros> lua is the perfect choice
Jan 23 04:20:37 <noidd> sadly, I agree :-P
Jan 23 04:21:04 <noidd> cying: perl5 doesn't leak if you write your code defensively.
Jan 23 04:21:08 <tchuladdiass> My problem is that I started working on 2e a couple years ago, but shelved it due to work problems.  I finally brought it back out a couple months back, but things have changed in the last couple years.
Jan 23 04:21:20 <noidd> or let me rephrase that - I've never had a problem that wasn't caused by my own stupidity.
Jan 23 04:21:21 <noidd> :-0
Jan 23 04:21:36 <noidd> things like circular refs in datastructures etc
Jan 23 04:21:50 <tchuladdiass> Does lua have any object oriented bent?
Jan 23 04:21:56 <tchuladdiass> or is it straight up imperative?
Jan 23 04:22:10 <cying> noidd: no, it just grows in memory slowly over time... :)
Jan 23 04:22:29 <cying> noidd: and buggy XS modules
Jan 23 04:22:43 <cying> tchuladdiass: yes
Jan 23 04:22:56 <noidd> I won't fight with you over your last statement.  That happens.
Jan 23 04:22:57 <cying> tchuladdiass: easily extensible
Jan 23 04:23:14 <noidd> maybe I should write a perl to lua translator :-P
Jan 23 04:23:23 <cying> i hate you
Jan 23 04:23:40 <tchuladdiass> How is lua for using as a language design tutorial?
Jan 23 04:23:55 <noidd> I wish parrot was advanced enough to deal with XS style modules
Jan 23 04:24:04 <tchuladdiass> i.e., if you were going to write a text book, could you use lua as a basis for it?
Jan 23 04:24:17 <tchuladdiass> (that was another idea kicking around in my head for 2e).
Jan 23 04:24:18 <cying> tchuladdiass: another text book?
Jan 23 04:24:33 <tchuladdiass> Well, mostly an online book.
Jan 23 04:24:39 <noidd> oh, a book on language and compiler design?
Jan 23 04:24:51 <cying> ohhh
Jan 23 04:25:02 <tchuladdiass> My problem is that when I was researching how to put together an interpreter, most of the references I ran across wern't very accessilbe.
Jan 23 04:25:11 <tchuladdiass> They required studying some additional theory.
Jan 23 04:25:27 <tchuladdiass> The notes I've put together are more down to earth.
Jan 23 04:25:37 <tchuladdiass> But that may only be my opinion.
Jan 23 04:25:55 <noidd> the last 10 years of language design have been trial and error.  Perl was the Trial, Python was the error
Jan 23 04:25:56 * noidd ducks
Jan 23 04:26:34 <cying> hmmm
Jan 23 04:26:43 <cying> i wonder how much IronPort sold their 100% python MTA to Cisco for...
Jan 23 04:26:51 <cying> you know, the one that never breaks down or crashes
Jan 23 04:26:53 <noidd> That's pure humour, I promise you
Jan 23 04:27:09 <noidd> I don't know.
Jan 23 04:27:10 * cying looks around for a Perl based MTA...
Jan 23 04:27:26 <noidd> I will say that a lot of that stability has to do with the fact they wrote it in a high level language like python.
Jan 23 04:27:27 <tchuladdiass> I found a good language discussion board, called lambda-the-ultimate.org.  I was hoping to get some ideas from there, but it seems mostly focused on functional programming.
Jan 23 04:27:32 <cying> noidd: fair enough
Jan 23 04:28:03 <tchuladdiass> cying, noidd, do you know where would be a good place for me to discuss language design?
Jan 23 04:28:03 <cying> noidd: although having written a 80K web-based GUI in Perl for Sendmail while I was working there, i'd say i still like python more.
Jan 23 04:28:18 <cying> tchuladdiass: sorry, not sure
Jan 23 04:28:20 <noidd> cying: horses, courses etc.
Jan 23 04:28:32 <cying> tchuladdiass: though i doubt they'll give you the same advice we're giving you here.
Jan 23 04:28:40 <noidd> cying: I wrote an NNTP server in perl
Jan 23 04:28:43 <tchuladdiass> Well, I welcome all advice.
Jan 23 04:28:50 <cying> noidd: 80. thousand. lines.
Jan 23 04:28:57 <cying> noidd: i was crying by the end of it.
Jan 23 04:29:14 <noidd> and actually - there is a perl spam filter which is an MTA proxy which is interesting
Jan 23 04:29:22 <cying> noidd: yes
Jan 23 04:29:23 <noidd> 80,000!!!
Jan 23 04:29:25 <cying> noidd: i wrote it
Jan 23 04:29:45 <cying> noidd: if you're referring to Sendmail::Milter
Jan 23 04:29:51 <cying> noidd: although there are others
Jan 23 04:29:57 <noidd> No, not that one
Jan 23 04:30:02 <noidd> trying to remember the name
Jan 23 04:30:07 <noidd> sec - lemme look on my mailserver
Jan 23 04:31:16 <noidd> assp
Jan 23 04:31:19 <noidd> that was it
Jan 23 04:31:23 <noidd> interesting program
Jan 23 04:31:38 <noidd> always disturbed me that its primary target was Windows perl
Jan 23 04:31:44 <noidd> but it still worked under unix
Jan 23 04:31:59 <noidd> just gave me pause to worry
Jan 23 04:32:33 <cying> what?
Jan 23 04:32:38 <cying> Sendmail::Milter?
Jan 23 04:32:41 <cying> oh
Jan 23 04:32:42 <cying> assp
Jan 23 04:32:44 <noidd> assp
Jan 23 04:32:47 <noidd> loved the concept
Jan 23 04:33:01 <cying> you should take a look at Sendmail::Milter's source code sometime
Jan 23 04:33:08 <noidd> just large enough and disorgainized enough inside that it made me nervous
Jan 23 04:33:17 <noidd> grabbing
Jan 23 04:33:19 <cying> i'm quite proud of that codebase, first perl module i wrote and it was deep XS voodoo
Jan 23 04:33:37 <cying> hehehe
Jan 23 04:33:53 <noidd> now I know where your nick comes from :-)
Jan 23 04:33:58 <cying> hehe
Jan 23 04:35:26 <noidd> Ok, that's awesome
Jan 23 04:35:39 <noidd> way above my skill level I will confess
Jan 23 04:35:54 <noidd> XS and I tend to meet at freeway SIG 11
Jan 23 04:36:04 <cying> heh
Jan 23 04:36:07 <cying> and intpools.c!
Jan 23 04:36:17 <cying> that was when ithreads was still buggy
Jan 23 04:36:31 <cying> modperl probably has it by now
Jan 23 04:37:19 <noidd> XS truely is evil
Jan 23 04:37:28 <noidd> its possibly the worst design ever
Jan 23 04:37:34 <noidd> evolved into worse
Jan 23 04:37:52 <noidd> Perl6 is doing a complete rebuilt of the XS system
Jan 23 04:38:01 <noidd> but that will break CPAN compatibility
Jan 23 04:38:11 <cying> i think i remember hearing about perl6 when i left sendmail 6 years ago
Jan 23 04:38:16 <noidd> so there are disagreements aout if that is a good idea or not
Jan 23 04:38:27 <cying> parrot and perl6 was just getting started
Jan 23 04:38:49 <noidd> I'm not the greatest fan of the perl6 effort honestly
Jan 23 04:38:52 <noidd> parrot is cool
Jan 23 04:39:04 <noidd> I guess I didn't think that the perl language per se was broken
Jan 23 04:39:14 <noidd> the interpreter needed a complete re-write
Jan 23 04:39:23 <noidd> but the language itself I think is sound
Jan 23 04:40:42 <cying> oy
Jan 23 04:40:46 <cying> but the future is in mobile anyway
Jan 23 04:40:52 <cying> so onward to lua and lisp!
Jan 23 04:41:26 <tchuladdiass> I'm looking through the lua reference manual, and it does appear that they've got things implimented very similar to 2e.
Jan 23 04:41:46 <tchuladdiass> i.e., implimented as a C library, with a small wrapper to use it as standalone.
Jan 23 04:41:57 <tchuladdiass> Which is the same way that tcl is done, I think.
Jan 23 04:42:10 <aloril> if you want to be sure, use HOL or Coq
Jan 23 04:42:14 <cjb> tchuladdiass: since you're typing implemented so often, I feel compelled to point out how you're supposed to spell it.  :)
Jan 23 04:42:18 * aloril grins
Jan 23 04:42:31 <tchuladdiass> :-)
Jan 23 04:42:33 * cying chokes uncontrollably.
Jan 23 04:42:58 <tchuladdiass> I've got to emplemint a betr spll chekerr
Jan 23 04:43:19 * tchuladdiass rushes to change the online 2e documentation
Jan 23 04:43:29 * tchuladdiass finishes before anyone notices
Jan 23 04:44:21 <noidd> hmm, the only problem with eating my wifes left-over pad thai is that she gets it with 1 extra spoon of spice.  I eat it with 6 so its kinda bland
Jan 23 04:44:46 <cying> and with that, back to work!
Jan 23 04:44:59 <noidd> later mn
Jan 23 04:45:01 <noidd> bed for me
Jan 23 04:45:02 <noidd> seeya
Jan 23 04:45:18 <tchuladdiass> So to summerize, everything that I've got in (or planed for) 2e, is mostly already done in lua.  So I should either accept being an also-ran, or find ways to differentiate
Jan 23 04:45:47 <tchuladdiass> Or just start putting out some neat apps, based in 2e, and others will follow from there.
Jan 23 04:46:33 <noidd> remeber that there is a earning curve for learning a new language
Jan 23 04:46:47 <tchuladdiass> I think I'm going to bed also, if anyone has any requests drop me a line via the sourceforge project page (or email me, dpressnall @ gmail.com
Jan 23 04:46:49 <noidd> which means that the benefits you offer have to be worth that learning curve
Jan 23 04:47:11 <tchuladdiass> I was hoping that my learning curve will be smaller than other languages.
Jan 23 04:47:25 <tchuladdiass> but I'm too biased, so I will need to get other's opinion
Jan 23 04:47:53 <tchuladdiass> But I'm willing to implEment anything that doesn't require a complete rewrite.
Jan 23 04:47:55 <tchuladdiass> :-)
Jan 23 04:49:44 <tchuladdiass> I just don't want the code to go to waste is all.
Jan 23 04:50:04 <tchuladdiass> (but such is the nature of open source -- natural selection and all)
Jan 23 05:06:21 <aloril> variant: with battery powered USB hub you should be able to use any digital camera as mass storage (and using PTP too probably)
Jan 23 05:20:48 <CM> aloril: Good thinking on the wiki stuff (and take my pages ;)
Jan 23 05:28:43 <cying_out> aloril: is the wiki up and running?
Jan 23 05:29:06 <cying_out> aloril: i have some ideas... which i've sent to coreteam awhile back, but may post them more publicly later
Jan 23 05:37:45 <CM> cying_out: It really looks like "crying out" now.. My brain can't help it
Jan 23 05:38:26 <aloril> cying_out: official wiki is running invisible to general net, unofficial is linked from topic
Jan 23 06:05:11 <CM> ttp://tieguy.org/blog/2007/01/22/i-want-linux-in-my-pocket-asap-kthxbye/
Jan 23 06:05:23 <CM> + h...
Jan 23 07:53:23 <zodttd> Quick question that has probably been heard too many times already...The "select developers" eligble for the initial wave of OpenMoko's: Is it "we come to you" or "you come to us" when it comes to how they pick developers? I work at a mobile game development studio, and also maintain some homebrew ports/emulators such as psx4all and PPC TTD. 
Jan 23 07:54:37 <zodttd> Hi hrw, a familar face. 
Jan 23 07:56:48 <hrw> http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/23/free-your-phone/
Jan 23 07:57:05 <hrw> hi zodttd 
Jan 23 07:57:35 <hrw> zodttd: Notice to Developers If you are interested in developing Free Software applications for the OpenMoko platform, please send information regarding embedded Linux projects you have contributed to, and the work you have done to coreteam@openmoko.org.
Jan 23 07:57:47 <hrw> zodttd: took from openmoko.com
Jan 23 07:57:59 <zodttd> Thanks :)
Jan 23 07:59:09 <zodttd> Good to see it running OE
Jan 23 08:02:52 <hrw> yes
Jan 23 08:03:06 <hrw> zodttd: any plans on adding psx4all etc into OE?
Jan 23 08:05:18 <zodttd> Well the psx4all project is currently on hold until some actual redesign of the entire source gets done> It was very sloppy and should be open sourced / public SVN type deal.
Jan 23 08:05:55 <zodttd> But I am working with a person named Exophase on his gpSP GBA emulator. It's completely polished and well made. I can have it on anY Linux platform in a matter of hours.
Jan 23 08:06:54 <zodttd> Well any Linux handheld that runs OE :)
Jan 23 08:09:01 <zodttd> Im wondering what to do about the Zaurus. When I started doing psx4all on the GP2X (psx4gp2x) it would receive hundreds of replies to each thread of a new release in a matter of days. Not the case with the Zaurus, not much to "feed" off of. Any idea what platforms I should be looking at? ;)
Jan 23 08:09:01 <loufoque> zodttd: and how would you play GBA games with the neo 1973 ?
Jan 23 08:09:55 <zodttd> What's the button layout on the Neo 1973? It would need a d-pad and 4 buttons, or 3 if you need a modifier button of sorts.
Jan 23 08:09:55 <hrw> zodttd: Zaurus world is split into few distros and this is a problem
Jan 23 08:10:08 <hrw> zodttd: neo1973 has 2 button only
Jan 23 08:10:11 <hrw> no d-pad even
Jan 23 08:10:15 <loufoque> it has a touchscreen
Jan 23 08:10:18 <zodttd> Yes, and the distros aren't very compatible
Jan 23 08:10:34 <hrw> I have to go - time to be at work
Jan 23 08:10:37 <hrw> cu
Jan 23 08:10:37 <zodttd> Ah it is 2 + touchscreen. I could map regions
Jan 23 08:10:38 <zodttd> Hmm
Jan 23 08:10:43 <zodttd> later hrw
Jan 23 08:12:44 <zodttd> loufoque: Hmm, for some reason I thought it had a dpad. That would make GBA a bit tough. I need to look at the specs as what I received must be false. To be honest, I don't think OpenMoko is an ideal platform for emulation. I wonder how a game like OpenTTD (Transport Tycoon Deluxe: openttd.org) or casual mobile games such as my 1 button games for Smartphones would be though
Jan 23 08:14:23 <loufoque> phones don't usually have d-pads, do they?
Jan 23 08:14:44 <zodttd> Smartphones tend to. But they're not open source either.
Jan 23 08:16:17 <zodttd> Also the Palm Treo's and Razr phones have a dpad of sorts as well.
Jan 23 08:17:31 <zodttd> Hey pgas is here too. :)
Jan 23 08:17:41 <pgas> hi
Jan 23 08:18:03 <zodttd> pgas: How are things on your end going?
Jan 23 08:18:32 <pgas> well, nowhere, I have been very busy these last months
Jan 23 08:19:14 <zodttd> Busy is good sometimes. I have been too busy for side projects too.
Jan 23 08:20:09 <pgas> yeah, my life is somehow more organized when I am busy :)
Jan 23 08:20:20 <zodttd> I hear that!
Jan 23 08:20:22 <zodttd> :)
Jan 23 08:21:32 <zodttd> I was told about OpenMoko by someone in the GP2X community (GP2X is a "supposedly open source" gaming handheld by Gamepark Holdings)
Jan 23 08:21:49 <zodttd> They said I needed to get one so I'm working at it :)
Jan 23 08:23:21 <guaqua> too busy channel, too much distraction. i'll have to check back later ;) cyas
Jan 23 08:23:28 <loufoque> developers actually get the phone for free.
Jan 23 08:23:32 <loufoque> that's pretty nice.
Jan 23 08:23:54 <zodttd> Yes, I agree. I don't know how strict they are at considering who is a developer though. 
Jan 23 08:24:53 <pgas> well, it's also a cheap way to have some developers working for you ;)
Jan 23 08:25:42 <zodttd> I believe the Gizmondo uses the same SoC as the Neo1973. I remember trying to get WinCE 5.0 on it using the Samsung reference BSP.
Jan 23 08:26:28 <zodttd> True pgas. Exactly why they're doing it. But it's good for both parties involved I suppose. :)
Jan 23 08:37:41 <zodttd> ttyl
Jan 23 08:37:47 <zodttd> OESF if you need me :)
Jan 23 08:51:15 <sannes> 3333
Jan 23 08:51:18 <sannes> ops
Jan 23 08:52:01 * sannes wonders why the backspace button is so close to the enter button.. hm, damn murphy :P
Jan 23 09:41:15 * aloril is a cyborg:
Jan 23 09:41:17 <aloril> counter
Jan 23 09:41:17 <aloril> source: 2 weeks, 4 days 11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds; developer: 1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days 11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds; mass market: 7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days 11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds
Jan 23 09:47:29 <xorAxAx> aloril: remove the seconds :)
Jan 23 09:50:25 <aloril> hmm...maybe replace second occurance of "11 hours, 48 minutes, 5 seconds" with '-"-'
Jan 23 09:56:17 <Tv> pfft, precision without accuracy
Jan 23 09:56:23 <Tv> you don't know the exact time
Jan 23 09:59:05 <aloril> hmm.. yeah, could assume latest time for that date
Jan 23 09:59:59 <Tv> just count the days
Jan 23 10:00:02 <Tv> much more meaningful to humans
Jan 23 10:00:27 <Tv> your whole line of gibberish can be replaced with "X days for devs, Y days for mass market"
Jan 23 10:00:42 <CM> Days go by way to fast anyway.. 
Jan 23 10:00:44 <Tv> and that would be readable, more easily comprehensible, and more helpful
Jan 23 10:01:06 <CM> At least feels like that when you have a deadline coming..
Jan 23 10:01:20 <hrw|work> X for first devs, Y for devs, Z for users
Jan 23 10:02:58 <aloril> hrw|work: well.. it is source for everybody: for most it is that ;-)
Jan 23 10:03:34 <aloril> ok, now it should be just days
Jan 23 10:04:47 <aloril> (it should work with 2 different channel messages: "counter" and "aloril: counter")
Jan 23 10:13:17 <Tv> aloril:  counter
Jan 23 10:13:23 <Tv> mwahaha ;)
Jan 23 10:14:12 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 10:14:14 <aloril> ;-)
Jan 23 10:14:53 <aloril> this is cyborg after all, so it can parse a bit more complex stuff too, though more slowly
Jan 23 10:15:00 <xorAxAx>        /win 29
Jan 23 10:15:02 <xorAxAx> oops
Jan 23 10:44:09 * xkr47 re-advertises his sick javascript countdown^H^H^H^H pixldown v2 @ http://xkr47.outerspace.dyndns.org/tmp/openmoko-pixldown2.html
Jan 23 11:10:04 <plaes> xkr47: sweet :D:D
Jan 23 11:10:38 <XorA> xkr47: :-D
Jan 23 11:18:36 <CM> xkr47: Hehe
Jan 23 11:19:01 <XorA> xkr47: I get the feeling you are itching for a phone
Jan 23 11:32:40 <CM> "Why I Want a Locked IPhone" - http://www.wired.com/news/columns/0,72544-0.html
Jan 23 11:36:18 <dottedmag> CM: well, then Apple did everything right, except mentioning that iPhone uses OSX.
Jan 23 11:37:10 <CM> dottedmag: And the price. It's just way too high
Jan 23 11:37:52 <CM> I like the "Free your phone" idea a lot more.. ;)
Jan 23 11:38:07 <dottedmag> Yep. We are just not in target audience of iPhone ;)
Jan 23 11:40:04 <CM> One thing is true though. A normal user wouldn't be happy if a software update of the phone broke all input or so. I'm guessing there will be a lot of polishing done before the real release in September
Jan 23 11:40:34 <CM> And some disclaimer against installing "uncertified" software or so
Jan 23 11:41:05 <dottedmag> disclaimers should be printed and included in the box.
Jan 23 11:41:16 <dottedmag> I hate this "disclaimer" in nokia770's application manager.
Jan 23 11:46:54 <florian> hi all
Jan 23 12:43:45 <l3010o> can anyone tell me more about "free your phone"?
Jan 23 12:45:32 <aloril> what do you want to know?
Jan 23 12:45:52 <l3010o> anything interest=) just a newbie here
Jan 23 12:45:54 <l3010o> interesting
Jan 23 12:46:20 <hrw|work> l3010o: http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/23/free-your-phone/
Jan 23 12:47:05 <l3010o> hrw|work: let me see
Jan 23 12:47:08 <pgas> http://www.fsf.org/
Jan 23 12:50:34 <l3010o> hrw|work: wow~ is that your blog?
Jan 23 12:51:05 <hrw|work> yes
Jan 23 12:51:36 <l3010o> so..how to be one of the developers?
Jan 23 12:54:13 <marcellus> Develop.
Jan 23 12:54:40 <CM> l3010o: As marcellus said, a proven record of contributions
Jan 23 12:55:07 <l3010o> contributions to openmoko?
Jan 23 12:55:09 <CM> Or you'll have to do like a slacker like me and wait until March 11th and buy the phone with a dev-kit
Jan 23 12:55:39 <CM> No, to some relevant project. Embedded or gtk or so :)
Jan 23 12:56:05 <CM> I'm a nobody though, so don't trust my words on everything :P
Jan 23 12:56:11 <friedel> marcellus: Hi. Any openmoko specific stuff in cvs/ svn somewhere already?
Jan 23 12:56:30 <CM> friedel: Not yet, it will be released in February
Jan 23 12:56:36 <marcellus> I wouldn't know since I am not one of the developers.
Jan 23 12:57:01 <friedel> Anybody in here interested in localisation of the openmoko?
Jan 23 12:57:11 <friedel> That is my main area of interested.
Jan 23 12:57:14 <friedel> *interest
Jan 23 12:57:40 <l3010o> CM: I am just a linux noob though
Jan 23 12:57:41 <CM> Why not, I don't mind translating some :-)
Jan 23 12:58:03 <friedel> CM, of course, but nothing is in place yet.
Jan 23 12:58:10 <l3010o> i wish openmoko would have a traditional chinese version
Jan 23 12:58:14 <friedel> That is why I'm wondering if any apps are in versioncontrol yet.
Jan 23 12:58:14 <CM> l3010o: Then I suggest waiting for the dev-kit version of the phone in March.
Jan 23 12:58:20 <l3010o> as i m a Hong Kong-er =)
Jan 23 12:58:54 <l3010o> CM: that is for general users? or just a tester?
Jan 23 12:59:06 <CM> That's for interested developer
Jan 23 12:59:19 <CM> Read the announcement in the topic
Jan 23 12:59:33 <CM> aloril: counter
Jan 23 12:59:34 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 13:00:06 <Eblis> the CPU is unknown at this point, right ?
Jan 23 13:00:29 <CM> l3010o: Unfortnately OpenEmbedded.org seems to have lost their dns right now, otherwise that's a good place to start and to get familiar with bitbake and such
Jan 23 13:00:49 <CM> No, all is known, see the announcement in the topic
Jan 23 13:01:31 <Eblis> aha, thanks
Jan 23 13:01:36 <Eblis> missed the info related to the cpu :)
Jan 23 13:01:50 <CM> Samsung s3c2410 SoC @ 266 MHz :)
Jan 23 13:02:10 <Eblis> yes, i noticed the line after you redirected me :)
Jan 23 13:02:11 <Eblis> thanks
Jan 23 13:02:31 <CM> You're welcome :)
Jan 23 13:03:07 <l3010o> CM: yes cant connect to openembedded.org, just viewing it in google cache
Jan 23 13:03:32 <CM> l3010o: Yes, their DNS failed today for some reason
Jan 23 13:03:55 <CM> l3010o: I'm sure it will be back up soon
Jan 23 13:05:02 <friedel> Anybody know whether there is / will be an emulator or similar to use before the Neo is available?
Jan 23 13:05:23 <Eblis> the unofficial wiki has some info on that :)
Jan 23 13:05:35 <CM> Yes, either a qemu arm emulator or for gui Xoo/Xephyr 
Jan 23 13:06:17 <letoto> seems openmoko got a lot more momentum then greenphone when they were in this 'almost release' stage
Jan 23 13:06:28 <letoto> at least on irc :)
Jan 23 13:06:32 <CM> I'd say because it's truly open
Jan 23 13:06:32 <xorAxAx> maybe because its more open?
Jan 23 13:06:48 <xorAxAx> at least its not completly open either
Jan 23 13:07:04 <letoto> is it more open? 
Jan 23 13:07:10 <letoto> i guess for non-gpl stuff it is
Jan 23 13:07:15 <xorAxAx> because 50% of it is closed -- the hardware design :)
Jan 23 13:07:31 <letoto> as long as you get opensource drivers
Jan 23 13:07:49 <letoto> i am assuming the neo wont give you access to the core fcc approved stuff either :P
Jan 23 13:07:50 <CM> It's cheape, has gps and a nicer screen
Jan 23 13:07:51 <letoto> or else it wouldnt get fcc approved :P
Jan 23 13:07:58 <CM> s/cheape/cheaper/
Jan 23 13:07:59 <apt> CM meant: It's cheaper, has gps and a nicer screen
Jan 23 13:07:59 <xorAxAx> letoto: no, thats wrong
Jan 23 13:08:16 <xorAxAx> letoto: e.g. with my wlan card, i just have to patch my driver to get all channels
Jan 23 13:08:49 <xorAxAx> letoto: so it depends if the card is limited to a specific region or should be sold world wide in my example
Jan 23 13:09:41 <Eblis> it seems that the phone is quadband so it should work all over the world
Jan 23 13:09:57 <l3010o> does openmoko support unicode?
Jan 23 13:10:31 <letoto> xorAxAx: the usual design is a dual cpu. one cpu for fcc stuff, one cpu for OS, connected with some virtual serial port
Jan 23 13:11:44 <l3010o> aloril: counter
Jan 23 13:11:44 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 13:12:34 <xorAxAx> letoto: yes, but it depends ... if you need to configure the radio in the us differently but want to ship the same hardware everywhere and the drivers are open source, then you can break the fcc allowance
Jan 23 13:14:24 <aloril> openembedded.org works for me
Jan 23 13:15:08 * aloril guesses it was temporary glitch
Jan 23 13:15:38 <aloril> I think greenphone was quite closed back then (qtopia was closed I think, not anymore though)
Jan 23 13:15:38 <Eblis> still doesn't work here
Jan 23 13:16:05 <aloril> also neo1973 offers twice of some features for 1/2 price
Jan 23 13:17:19 <aloril> http://openembedded.org/ redirects to http://www.openembedded.org/
Jan 23 13:17:59 <friedel> l3010o: I'm still new here, but if it is based on GTK+, I am quite sure it will support unicode.
Jan 23 13:18:13 <hrw|work> friedel: there is code in svn repository. But repo is closed for non-coreteam developers.
Jan 23 13:18:50 <hrw|work> there is work on getting Japanese input methods in GTK/X11 world so neo1973 will get it
Jan 23 13:18:55 <Eblis> aloril: what's the ip ? i'll try it that way
Jan 23 13:18:57 <l3010o> friedel: so it should be possible for me to input chinese characters? coz it's painful to type chinese under linux
Jan 23 13:19:35 <aloril> I think its unmodified or mostly unmodified gtk 2.6.10  (might be wrong about "unmodified")
Jan 23 13:19:38 <hrw|work> l3010o: do you know some chinese inputmethods which can be used on touchscreens? if yes then start contribute to OE?
Jan 23 13:19:44 <friedel> l3010o: I'm not the one that should be answering here :-)  but I think that text input has not been finalised in any way.
Jan 23 13:19:51 <friedel> l3010o: Do you know dasher?
Jan 23 13:20:08 <hrw|work> 2.6.10 with some patches related to touchscreen usage (one mouse button) and few handhelds related ones
Jan 23 13:20:14 <aloril> Eblis: 85.214.40.226 (but that loads different site)
Jan 23 13:20:24 <l3010o> hrw|work: thx
Jan 23 13:20:31 <aloril> (linuxtogo.org)
Jan 23 13:21:06 <Eblis> aha, i guess i'll just have to wait for the dns servers to update here as well
Jan 23 13:21:18 <l3010o> hrw|work i know those input methods, but never see it appears on linux
Jan 23 13:21:54 <l3010o> friedel: i dont know dasher
Jan 23 13:22:12 <XorA> Eblis: enter 85.214.40.226 www.openembedded.org into your /etc/hosts file
Jan 23 13:22:39 <l3010o> friedel: do you mean the dasher project?
Jan 23 13:22:56 <friedel> l3010o: Yes. Dasher is one of the text input methods that I guess is considered. See http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/Chinese.html
Jan 23 13:23:17 <Eblis> XorA: i'm on windows :)
Jan 23 13:23:31 <XorA> c:\windows\system32\drivers\etc then
Jan 23 13:23:34 <l3010o> friedel: just googled it =) anyway, thx, i'm reading it
Jan 23 13:28:43 <l3010o> connected to openembedded.org :)
Jan 23 13:29:14 <l3010o> but hving a slow connection, i guess the backbone near Taiwan hasn't yet been fixed
Jan 23 13:46:37 <rboehme> re: openembedded, do I develop my app in only C, or can I use c++ or another language? In other words, what languages are supported?
Jan 23 13:48:48 <prpplague> rboehme: OE is simply a method to automate builds, it doesn't care what the application is or what it is written in
Jan 23 13:49:40 <aloril> you can use other languages, though you might need to install additional libraries depending on language
Jan 23 13:50:07 <rboehme> ah, ok. What exactly is the function of bitbake in all of this?
Jan 23 13:51:27 <prpplague> rboehme: as to the guts of OE you would probably get better results asking in #oe
Jan 23 13:52:10 <rboehme> thanks
Jan 23 13:52:29 <XorA> bitbake is the task executer that makes the tasks in OE happen
Jan 23 13:52:42 <XorA> think of bitbmake as make, OE and Makefile
Jan 23 13:52:49 <XorA> OE as Makefile
Jan 23 13:54:02 <aloril> rboehme: another way to think is that OpenMoKo is 'just' another Linux distribution which includes by default quite limited amount of software (at most 64MiB)
Jan 23 13:57:45 <hrw|work> aloril: s/by default/in installation image/
Jan 23 14:01:22 <xkr47> XorA, that might be very true ;-)
Jan 23 14:11:31 <CM> mickeyl: http://www.burtonini.com/blog/computers/lemonade-2007-01-23-13-10
Jan 23 14:13:18 <zecke> wow, a crowded channel
Jan 23 14:13:33 <CM> Morning ;)
Jan 23 14:13:41 <Eblis_> morning ? where :P
Jan 23 14:13:57 * mickeyl waves a warm welcome towards zecke
Jan 23 14:13:58 <CM> ~ugt
Jan 23 14:14:08 <apt> rumour has it, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html
Jan 23 14:14:28 <Eblis> heh
Jan 23 14:15:10 <skome> speaking of crowded irc channels...is there a bitchx/ircii command to suppress the join/signoff messages?
Jan 23 14:15:20 <hrw|work> hi zecke 
Jan 23 14:15:37 <skome> I tried /fset join  , which blanks them, but prints a newline
Jan 23 14:16:34 <skome>  /on notify_signoff looks promising, but I don't know what else to throw in
Jan 23 14:24:31 <Eblis> :( dns servers stil haven't been updated here
Jan 23 14:34:48 <xkr47> man, those pixels go away fast :)
Jan 23 14:39:37 <TRIsoft> hi zecke :-)
Jan 23 14:41:18 <noidd> bleugh
Jan 23 14:41:20 * noidd jobhunts
Jan 23 14:43:47 * prpplague hands noidd a spear along with a bow and arrows
Jan 23 14:44:59 <hrw|work> prpplague: hi
Jan 23 14:46:17 <noidd> sungard is hireing
Jan 23 14:46:31 <noidd> I'm going to apply to a Sr UNIX sysadmin position I think
Jan 23 14:46:40 <noidd> nice and low maintainence
Jan 23 14:48:37 <prpplague> hrw|work: greetings
Jan 23 14:49:01 <prpplague> hrw|work: still hacking away at the 88w8385 stuff
Jan 23 14:49:26 <prpplague> hrw|work: got the cf version working pretty well under our legacy 2.4 stuff
Jan 23 14:50:07 <fr500> where can i download an image to test with qemu?
Jan 23 14:54:01 <CM> fr500: Wait 2-3 weeks :)
Jan 23 14:54:10 <fr500> CM: 
Jan 23 14:54:11 <fr500> ok
Jan 23 14:54:18 <CM> counter
Jan 23 14:54:19 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 14:59:13 <jono> hi all
Jan 23 14:59:20 <jono> any official developers here?
Jan 23 14:59:42 * CM points to mickyl
Jan 23 15:00:02 <SpeedEvil> Signal the fleet to jump to pudding condition.
Jan 23 15:00:04 <SpeedEvil> oops
Jan 23 15:00:08 <jono> mickeyl: ping!
Jan 23 15:00:33 <jono> mickeyl: want to come on LUGRadio an interview tomorrow night?
Jan 23 15:00:59 <CM> ~seen mickyl
Jan 23 15:01:17 <apt> CM: i haven't seen 'mickyl'
Jan 23 15:01:25 <CM> ~seen mickeyl
Jan 23 15:01:28 <apt> mickeyl is currently on #oe #openmoko #openezx. Has said a total of 948 messages. Is idling for 2h 9m 41s, last said: '~bon appetit'.
Jan 23 15:02:22 <xorAxAx> ~seen XorA 
Jan 23 15:02:24 <xorAxAx> ~seen xorAxAx 
Jan 23 15:02:24 <apt> xora is currently on #gpe #oe #openmoko #openzaurus. Has said a total of 136 messages. Is idling for 1h 9m 35s, last said: 'OE as Makefile'.
Jan 23 15:02:27 <apt> xoraxax is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 509 messages. Is idling for 3s, last said: '~seen xorAxAx '.
Jan 23 15:02:41 <b_lindeijer> So this open mobile phone project is closed for now?
Jan 23 15:02:41 <XorA> I is here
Jan 23 15:02:50 <xorAxAx> XorA: yes, incorrect use of tab key :)
Jan 23 15:03:05 <CM> b_lindeijer: No, just not open yet. Too early
Jan 23 15:03:14 <b_lindeijer> Alright.
Jan 23 15:03:26 <CM> But soon.. The code should be availible on Feb 11th
Jan 23 15:03:35 <b_lindeijer> I'll be reading the announcements list. :)
Jan 23 15:04:38 <CM> jono: Great podcasts btw, I hope you get mickeyl on. :)
Jan 23 15:05:41 <hrw|work> prpplague: got my mail?
Jan 23 15:06:00 <CM> ~seen LaF0rge 
Jan 23 15:06:05 <apt> laf0rge is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 31 messages. Is idling for 4d 15h 26m 47s, last said: 'mh.'.
Jan 23 15:08:54 <jono> CM: thanks :)
Jan 23 15:08:56 <prpplague> hrw|work: hmm, guess not
Jan 23 15:09:08 <jono> CM: I hope we can get mickeyl too
Jan 23 15:09:32 <CM> LaF0rge is Harald Welte, also dev, but busy guy..
Jan 23 15:09:49 <prpplague> hrw|work: hmm, don't see any mail from you
Jan 23 15:12:39 <hrw|work> prpplague: I send to mail which you use on LTG
Jan 23 15:15:57 <prpplague> hrw|work: odd, didn't see it, either the spam filter got it or i trashed it by mistake
Jan 23 15:19:54 <tchuladdiass> Hi all, just wanted to verify... if I wanted to get started developing for the openmoko, since the code isn't released yet I should target gtk development, correct?  Then the code should be easily portable?
Jan 23 15:20:47 <WillySilly> yeah
Jan 23 15:21:49 <CM> tchuladdiass: Yes. Also, take a look at openembedded.org, except that their dns is down right now
Jan 23 15:22:44 <l4rs> tchuladdiass: openmoko adds an api ontop of gtk, so i bet you would have rewrite some parts to have a nice integration into openmoko	environment
Jan 23 15:24:03 <l4rs> i would do some prototyping and than wait a few days...
Jan 23 15:24:04 <tchuladdiass> What I'm initially going to do is write up a set of gtk bindings for a small interpreter I've put together. Any idea where I can get a list of which bindings to initially target?  so I do it in the best order.
Jan 23 15:24:49 <tchuladdiass> (if I write the bindings in top to bottom order, then I'd get some least used ones before implementing more used bindings)
Jan 23 15:25:05 <tchuladdiass> I'd like to get to an alpha / beta status as quickly as possible.
Jan 23 15:26:00 <hrw|work> tchuladdiass: openmoko use gtk 2.6.10
Jan 23 15:26:17 <hrw|work> tchuladdiass: and add some own widgets to gtk
Jan 23 15:33:05 <tchuladdiass> How much of the gtk widget set is used?  And will there be style guidelines that guide app developers to a specific widget subset?
Jan 23 15:37:47 <l4rs> there isn't anythink offical on that yet, i think
Jan 23 15:38:33 <hrw|work> tchuladdiass: I do not know details, but as I know from other OE projects gtk is not stripped from functionality (other then the fact that touchscreen == one button mouse)
Jan 23 15:39:33 <mickeyl> jono: sure, why not. depends on the actual time though. I'm located in germany, CET
Jan 23 15:39:45 <mickeyl> tchuladdiass: widgets i've used in OpenMoko
Jan 23 15:39:49 <mickeyl> GtkWidget
Jan 23 15:39:51 <mickeyl> GtkVBox
Jan 23 15:39:51 <skome> hrw|wrk: Do you know/expect that the touchscreen will effect an n-button mouse once multitouch is available. Or is there a better approach?
Jan 23 15:39:53 <mickeyl> GtkHBox
Jan 23 15:39:55 <mickeyl> GtkAlignment
Jan 23 15:39:59 <mickeyl> GtkFixed
Jan 23 15:40:01 <mickeyl> GtkComboBox
Jan 23 15:40:04 <mickeyl> GtkTreeView
Jan 23 15:40:11 <mickeyl> GtkCheckButton
Jan 23 15:40:14 <mickeyl> GtkRadioButton
Jan 23 15:40:18 <mickeyl> GtkEntry
Jan 23 15:40:22 <aloril> ~seen aloril
Jan 23 15:40:25 <mickeyl> GtkButton
Jan 23 15:40:31 <apt> aloril is currently on #oe (23h 9m) #openmoko (23h 9m). Has said a total of 83 messages. Is idling for 9s, last said: '~seen aloril'.
Jan 23 15:40:37 <mickeyl> GtkWindow
Jan 23 15:40:47 <mickeyl> that's about all I can remember offhand
Jan 23 15:40:53 <hrw|work> skome: touchscreen in neo is not multitouch capable
Jan 23 15:41:02 <tchuladdiass> Thanks.  That should help a lot.
Jan 23 15:41:14 <skome> Right, but it will be at some point, yes?
Jan 23 15:41:47 <skome> I understand that this rev. doesn't have the hardware
Jan 23 15:41:47 <slowcoder> skome: There might be patent issues with that
Jan 23 15:41:59 <tchuladdiass> I think what I'll do is go through a gtk tutorial, and create bindings in the order that some tutorials present them in, that way I can have a working beta bindings quickly.
Jan 23 15:42:01 <skome> I highly doubt that
Jan 23 15:42:42 <slowcoder> skome: How come you're doubting it? 
Jan 23 15:42:54 <SpeedEvil> There are stupid patents out there. There are for example ones on colour control of LEDs by computer.
Jan 23 15:43:10 <aloril> slowcoder: I think multitouch is old idea, I might be wrong though
Jan 23 15:43:12 <skome> I'm no expert, but I've a) searched for the patent, and b) know that multitouch has been demonstrated in various products for years
Jan 23 15:43:14 <SpeedEvil> IOW, mixing RGB to make colours of light.
Jan 23 15:43:27 <SpeedEvil> (Color kinetics)
Jan 23 15:44:33 <slowcoder> aloril: True, but it all comes down to who patents and makes a product out of it first..  "Prior art" only applies to commercially available products, not something thought up in a lab
Jan 23 15:44:37 <skome> I'm just curious about gtk and multitouch. I can go read about it.
Jan 23 15:48:11 <xorAxAx> ~seen LaF0rge 
Jan 23 15:48:17 <apt> laf0rge is currently on #openmoko. Has said a total of 31 messages. Is idling for 4d 16h 9m, last said: 'mh.'.
Jan 23 15:48:23 <xorAxAx> wow, 31 :)
Jan 23 15:49:26 <cying_out> aloril: did you see the fingerworks article on multitouch?
Jan 23 15:50:26 <Odin-LAP> Patents should be abolished...
Jan 23 15:51:04 <Odin-LAP> (And copyright rethought from basic principles. But that's another issue.)
Jan 23 15:51:29 <slowcoder> Odin-LAP: Patents have their place, but the current system is badly broken
Jan 23 15:52:03 <Odin-LAP> slowcoder: What place?
Jan 23 15:52:33 <Odin-LAP> And don't give me crap about pharmaceuticals. That's the field where patents are doing the MOST harm.
Jan 23 15:52:44 <slowcoder> Odin-LAP: To make sure companies that put massive amounts of money into R&D actually have a chance to recoup that money.. 
Jan 23 15:52:55 * cying realizes he walked in on something and backs slowly away.
Jan 23 15:53:28 <slowcoder> Odin-LAP: They're also making the most use there..  But having 20year patents for pharmaceuticals should be criminal, that I agree with
Jan 23 15:54:09 <Odin-LAP> slowcoder: Ah, so you believe a free market is incapable of doing that? Good, then we agree on something.
Jan 23 15:54:45 <Odin-LAP> slowcoder: Most use? What do you mean? Do you mean that patents are being used the most in pharmaceuticals, or that they are most useful in pharmaceuticals?
Jan 23 15:56:23 <slowcoder> They're most useful..  Since the pharmaceutical industry is privately owned, and R&D in that field is crazy expensive.  Allowing them to have a 4year (for example) patent would give them a chance to recoup their investment.  After all, they're in it for the money. If there wasn't money in it, there wouldn't be progress in the field
Jan 23 15:56:45 <cying> plus pharma doesn't change as quickly as tech
Jan 23 15:56:49 <Odin-LAP> slowcoder: How can they be simultaneously most useful and most harmful?
Jan 23 15:56:50 <slowcoder> But 20year patents are just ludicrous (sp?)
Jan 23 15:56:57 <cying> if it were up to me, i'd reduce time on tech patents only
Jan 23 15:57:11 <Odin-LAP> cying: No, but it does involve stupid, unneeded duplication of effort.
Jan 23 15:57:59 <cying> Odin-LAP: but there's a valid point that says without the patents, people might not invest the money to bother going through with the effort at all
Jan 23 15:58:04 <slowcoder> Odin-LAP: Because after a while (usually just a few years) they've gotten the return on their investment, and everything from there on is pure profit on the behalf of the disadvantaged people in the world. That's when it's really harmful
Jan 23 16:09:19 <jono> mickeyl: ok, so you good to do it?
Jan 23 16:09:40 <mickeyl> jono: i think i'm entitled to do it, yes 
Jan 23 16:10:00 <jono> mickeyl: ok, can we interview you at around 10pm CET?
Jan 23 16:10:33 <mickeyl> jono: yes, that'd work
Jan 23 16:10:52 <jono> mickeyl: mail jono AT jonobacon DOT org with a landline to call you on
Jan 23 16:11:29 <aloril> slowcoder: umm.. I think if ideas has been published -> unpatentable
Jan 23 16:11:33 <mickeyl> jono: done
Jan 23 16:11:41 <jono> thanks :)
Jan 23 16:11:45 <jono> speak to you tomorrow :)
Jan 23 16:12:00 <mickeyl> yeah
Jan 23 16:13:29 <aloril> cying: http://www.fingerworks.com/ ?
Jan 23 16:13:49 <tchuladdiass> alori: didn't apple buy fingerworks?
Jan 23 16:14:26 <aloril> slowcoder: I think prize reward model is better (for highly successful examples see X-Prize, Darpa races)
Jan 23 16:15:07 <aloril> tchuladdiass: ah, I remember it buying some multitouch related business
Jan 23 16:15:11 <cying> yes
Jan 23 16:15:15 <cying> i need to find the article
Jan 23 16:15:24 <cying> Wayne Westerman and John Elias both joined Apple
Jan 23 16:17:24 <aloril> slowcoder: when you can copy field, putting up fences doesn't make much sense ;-)
Jan 23 16:17:28 <cying> aloril: http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/22/some-iphone-touchscreen-roots-splained-by-fingerworks-inventors/#comments
Jan 23 16:17:53 <aloril> slowcoder: however encouraging people to find new different style fields by prize money does make sense especially because it benefits everybody then
Jan 23 16:20:47 <aloril> cying: thanks
Jan 23 16:21:39 <cying> aloril: *nod* i wonder how different the hw is and when it might be available elsewhere
Jan 23 16:21:41 <aloril> slowcoder: something is seriously wrong when scientists have stopped sharing discoveries ..
Jan 23 16:24:14 <tchuladdiass> Speaking of patented input methods, I'd realy like to see quickwriting done on the openmoko (i've used qwikscript for the Zaurus before).  It is patented, but the author seems to allow free implementations.
Jan 23 16:25:31 * aloril suspects anything patented won't be in default image, but outside that its possible, especially at Europe should be easier
Jan 23 16:25:35 <slowcoder> sorry, had to do something else for a bit..
Jan 23 16:26:44 <slowcoder> aloril: I agree about the part about scientists stopping sharing discoveries..
Jan 23 16:27:32 <slowcoder> I think we can agree that patents in their current form are _bad_
Jan 23 16:28:04 <mikesh> tchuladdiass: looks very interesting
Jan 23 16:30:29 <tchuladdiass> I think that all that would be required is to get a signoff from the quickwriting guy.  Esp. if it is an opensource version.
Jan 23 16:31:12 <tchuladdiass> But I don't know if it will be gpl compatible or not (i'm assuming they may want royalties if it is shipped with the device, but i could be wrong)
Jan 23 16:31:26 <tchuladdiass> but worth checking out at least.
Jan 23 16:33:24 <aloril> here is radical thought (at the moment): maybe copyrights and patents are seen in future in similar light to slavery now
Jan 23 16:42:23 <Stelz> gigi
Jan 23 16:48:25 <dw_swe> Hello, status of fm-radio in Neo? Planned for next revision if not in this one? Google would not tell me anything relevant.
Jan 23 16:49:11 <cying> ahhh
Jan 23 16:49:13 <cying> good question
Jan 23 16:49:21 <cying> an fm-radio would be brilliant
Jan 23 16:49:41 <dw_swe> Yea, i use it all the time now in my nokia.
Jan 23 16:50:20 <cying> yea
Jan 23 16:50:28 <dw_swe> Sure one could use podcasts, but radio chips are small!
Jan 23 16:50:31 <cying> it's a very popular requested feature among myspace demographic
Jan 23 16:50:37 <dw_swe> And realtime =)
Jan 23 16:50:40 <cying> from the research i've read
Jan 23 16:50:53 <cying> and you know that Apple won't go that route
Jan 23 16:51:02 <SpeedEvil> It's not the size of the chip which is the sole problem.
Jan 23 16:51:11 <aloril> USB radio?
Jan 23 16:51:12 <SpeedEvil> The much harder problem for FM radio is noise.
Jan 23 16:51:14 <dw_swe> Iphone wont have radio?
Jan 23 16:51:34 <dw_swe> Humm  like the blipp blop of gsm?
Jan 23 16:51:34 <cying> dw_swe: fm_tuner on the headphone
Jan 23 16:51:39 <SpeedEvil> As containing the noise from a small computer that you're in the same case with is really quite hard.
Jan 23 16:51:51 <dw_swe> True..
Jan 23 16:52:19 <dw_swe> But then you need an extra battery on the headphones
Jan 23 16:52:27 <Woland_> £-ĶĻ£...
Jan 23 16:52:29 <Woland_> heil
Jan 23 16:52:59 <dw_swe> Humm..  yes, emulate soundcard ower usb with radio connected.
Jan 23 16:53:00 <SpeedEvil> You've got dozens of signals at around a hundred megahertz and a volt or so switching constantly, and you're trying to pick up a signal at a thousandth of this.
Jan 23 16:53:14 <xorAxAx> cying: it would be so brilliant that it would cause people to pay a monthly fee in germany
Jan 23 16:53:32 <xorAxAx> cying: if they didnt have a pc or radio yet :)
Jan 23 16:53:37 <cying> xorAxAx: wow
Jan 23 16:53:45 <dw_swe> Yes, but it has been done before =)
Jan 23 16:54:06 * cying coughs: "sd card".
Jan 23 16:54:24 <SpeedEvil> I would like it if it was possible to make 'clip-ons' to the top or bottom - which are segments of a circle that clip onto the top, and make it taller, but the same shape, and add stuff.
Jan 23 16:54:35 <cying> but if you could record radio like a tivo, wouldn't that be a fun OSS?
Jan 23 16:54:53 <cying> dw_swe: you know you'd want one of those
Jan 23 16:55:03 <dw_swe> cying: YES
Jan 23 16:55:33 * cying wonders about the battery life... and shrugs.
Jan 23 16:56:13 <dw_swe> Someone sugested that in mail-list, set time of recording and such, but then u could use podcasts too..
Jan 23 16:56:44 <cying> but i would have to get the podcasts into the phone somehow
Jan 23 16:57:09 <dw_swe> Battery of my nokia 6230 lasts about two full days listening to radio and som calls.
Jan 23 16:57:09 <cying> mobile IP not as free as desktop IP
Jan 23 16:57:17 <SpeedEvil> If only wi-fi had supplied some means of micropayment for virtual tunnels as standard.
Jan 23 16:57:28 <cying> dw_swe: but you'd be compressing the radio stream into mp3
Jan 23 16:57:58 <cying> SpeedEvil: even then it would take a few years to propagate
Jan 23 16:58:08 <SpeedEvil> In the initial standard.
Jan 23 16:58:18 <dw_swe> cying: BT pan around computer.
Jan 23 16:58:45 <Woland_> how long battery life from charge to charge have been announced?
Jan 23 16:58:46 <dw_swe> or thrue usb while syncing calendar
Jan 23 16:58:59 <SpeedEvil> Woland: no
Jan 23 16:59:08 <SpeedEvil> Woland: not yet at least.
Jan 23 16:59:12 <Woland> SpeedEvil: what no?
Jan 23 16:59:25 <Woland> SpeedEvil: there was no information about it?
Jan 23 16:59:31 <SpeedEvil> There is no announcement yet
Jan 23 16:59:44 <Woland> ok
Jan 23 16:59:55 <SpeedEvil> I suspect they can only give a good number when they have the first set of hardware built.
Jan 23 17:00:08 <SpeedEvil> Production hardware - well - first dev production.
Jan 23 17:00:11 <cying> dw_swe: i think there are companies working on it, e.g. radioshark
Jan 23 17:00:20 <cying> dw_swe: if you do a PAN or a USB module
Jan 23 17:00:49 <dw_swe> Automatic recording in computer and then auto download to random mp3-player?
Jan 23 17:01:12 <cying> dw_swe: yea, that's radioshark
Jan 23 17:01:46 <dw_swe> Sounds nice..  
Jan 23 17:01:48 <Woland> SpeedEvil: when they promise to release?
Jan 23 17:02:09 <cying> dw_swe: they're building an HD version, the non HD one was 63 bucks
Jan 23 17:02:11 <SpeedEvil> Well, logically at the same time the first dev kits go out.
Jan 23 17:02:31 * cying wants a dev kit.
Jan 23 17:02:41 <dw_swe> Swedish national radio, the one i liste to has podcasts of almost all the shows i listen to.
Jan 23 17:02:42 <Woland> SpeedEvil: when it will be?
Jan 23 17:02:49 * cying looks around for any coreteam folks.
Jan 23 17:03:12 <cying> i can optimize ARM assembly!
Jan 23 17:03:14 <SpeedEvil> 1 month or so
Jan 23 17:03:20 * cying goes back to coding.
Jan 23 17:03:21 <stefan_schmidt> Woland: Please read the links in the topic
Jan 23 17:03:28 <Woland> stefan_schmidt: ok
Jan 23 17:03:38 <stefan_schmidt> Woland: thanks
Jan 23 17:03:51 <aloril> counter
Jan 23 17:03:52 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 17:04:17 <SpeedEvil> Has there been any discussion of how 'locked in' phones will work?
Jan 23 17:04:30 <SpeedEvil> Or will the phone only be available SIM-free?
Jan 23 17:04:40 <stefan_schmidt> SIM-free
Jan 23 17:05:19 <Woland> how it may be locked if it's "open"?
Jan 23 17:05:29 <SpeedEvil> The GSM bit isn't open.
Jan 23 17:05:45 <SpeedEvil> You can't do 'interesting' stuff with it - so it can be locked.
Jan 23 17:06:00 <SpeedEvil> You can make/recieve calls, but not work the radio directly.
Jan 23 17:06:11 <aloril> counter
Jan 23 17:06:12 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source for all and devices for selected developers;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for any developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 17:06:18 <Woland> SpeedEvil: sux
Jan 23 17:06:20 <SpeedEvil> So in principle the GSM bit could be locked to one provider.
Jan 23 17:06:32 <SpeedEvil> And they could subsidise the phone.
Jan 23 17:07:12 <tchuladdiass> SpeedEvil: Another way of looking at it is as if you had a PDA with a gsm cf card installed
Jan 23 17:07:12 <stefan_schmidt> SpeedEvil: That is a question for september.
Jan 23 17:07:12 <Woland> SpeedEvil: radio api is one of most interesting thigs
Jan 23 17:08:01 <SpeedEvil> An un-removable GSM card, which is slightly different. 
Jan 23 17:08:01 <tchuladdiass> then you'd have the same thing as the neo.
Jan 23 17:08:08 <SpeedEvil> No, you wouldn't.
Jan 23 17:08:18 <tchuladdiass> I mean, from a programming perspective.
Jan 23 17:08:31 <SpeedEvil> I'd be quite happy with a locked-to-one-provider phone with a contract on, that I could play with the software on.
Jan 23 17:08:48 <stefan_schmidt> Woland: Your only interface to GSM chip are virtual serial ports for AT commands.
Jan 23 17:09:58 <Woland> stefan_schmidt: it's not an interface for "open" phone.
Jan 23 17:10:47 <SpeedEvil> A open-source linux PDA with a glued in phone card, even if the phone card is locked to a provider is an interesting thing though.
Jan 23 17:11:34 <Woland> lock is not problem. it will be unlocked any way
Jan 23 17:12:16 <MetaBookfoziS> this is provider independent eh?
Jan 23 17:12:20 <stefan_schmidt> Woland: You don't get the source code of the GSM chip. No way. No provider would allow you to use this phone on his network.
Jan 23 17:12:32 <MetaBookfoziS> aah
Jan 23 17:12:33 <SpeedEvil> Yes, you can jam any SIM in.
Jan 23 17:12:34 <MetaBookfoziS> why?
Jan 23 17:12:47 <MetaBookfoziS> but i can'T use ?
Jan 23 17:12:50 <SpeedEvil> MetaBookfoziS: becasue they don't want hackers.
Jan 23 17:12:55 <aloril> in any case you can always buy unlocked neo1973
Jan 23 17:13:14 <MetaBookfoziS> so i buy this phone, and can'T use it as a phone 
Jan 23 17:13:20 <SpeedEvil> It works as a phone.
Jan 23 17:13:29 <SpeedEvil> It does not work as a GSM hacking device.
Jan 23 17:13:31 <MetaBookfoziS> with my simvard, with my provider?
Jan 23 17:13:34 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jan 23 17:13:56 <SpeedEvil> As long as your provider does not restrict you from using random handsets. Some do.
Jan 23 17:14:05 <MetaBookfoziS> t-mobile?
Jan 23 17:14:11 <LoRez> most providers don't actually lock your sim to a particular phone.  you just pop your existing sim out and put it in another unlocked (or locked to your carrier) phone and it'll just work.
Jan 23 17:14:12 <tchuladdiass> t-mobile allows any phone
Jan 23 17:14:29 <MetaBookfoziS> oh good. (I have HU-Tmobile acc)
Jan 23 17:14:29 <Woland> stefan_schmidt: nevermind. it will be reverse engineered the same way as thousands phones before it
Jan 23 17:14:44 <tchuladdiass> they will even provide some limited tech support for foriegn phones
Jan 23 17:14:47 <dottedmag> If some provider allows only particular cards, then roaming won't work.
Jan 23 17:14:49 <SpeedEvil> LoRez: '3' is an exception in the UK, they turn off hte card if it's not in a 3G capable phone, as it's part of their revenue stream.
Jan 23 17:15:46 <LoRez> SpeedEvil: that's assinine.  what happens if your fancy 3G phone breaks and you have to ship it back?  they give you a loaner 3G?
Jan 23 17:15:48 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jan 23 17:16:09 <SpeedEvil> They pay third parties for much of their non 3G data, so it actually costs them.
Jan 23 17:16:20 <LoRez> ah
Jan 23 17:16:26 <SpeedEvil> (it's transparent to the user) 
Jan 23 17:16:29 <LoRez> so you're roaming if you're not using 3g
Jan 23 17:16:40 <SpeedEvil> And their revenue stream is to sell you video content and stuff
Jan 23 17:16:54 <SpeedEvil> Which they can't effectively do if you're not on 3G.
Jan 23 17:17:09 <LoRez> they'd have a hard time selling me on that junk anyway ;)
Jan 23 17:17:11 <MetaBookfoziS> does the next generation openmoko have wifi andor camera?
Jan 23 17:18:28 <SpeedEvil> I want Wi-fi, camera with optical zoom and flash, radio, digital radio, mobile TV, flashlight, and corkscrew.
Jan 23 17:18:45 <Tv> And a pony!
Jan 23 17:18:46 <MetaBookfoziS> you missed the knife
Jan 23 17:18:56 <dottedmag> SpeedEvil: you forgot the portable shower :)
Jan 23 17:18:58 <MetaBookfoziS> in it's both sides
Jan 23 17:19:01 <MetaBookfoziS> :DDD
Jan 23 17:19:06 <SpeedEvil> Tv: The pony is included, to carry the batteries.
Jan 23 17:19:11 <CM> A FPGA is a must... 
Jan 23 17:19:12 <Woland> it doesn't have wifi?!
Jan 23 17:19:18 <SpeedEvil> Woland: no.
Jan 23 17:19:19 <MetaBookfoziS> Woland > it's sad but true.
Jan 23 17:19:21 <CM> :P
Jan 23 17:19:21 <SpeedEvil> Bluetooth only.
Jan 23 17:19:29 <MetaBookfoziS> i prefer wifi instead of gprs:/
Jan 23 17:19:35 <Woland> mda...
Jan 23 17:19:41 <aloril> and V12 ;-)
Jan 23 17:19:43 <MetaBookfoziS> why not have this wifi? (driver problems?)
Jan 23 17:19:49 <aloril> and multitouch
Jan 23 17:19:51 <dottedmag> MetaBookfoziS: exactly
Jan 23 17:19:52 <SpeedEvil> Driver/power problems.
Jan 23 17:19:54 <CM> There's no good open ones
Jan 23 17:20:06 <CM> Wait for v2 :)
Jan 23 17:20:09 <MetaBookfoziS> ralink?
Jan 23 17:20:39 <MetaBookfoziS> that ahve opensource drivers ( idunno that is good or bad)
Jan 23 17:20:44 <tchuladdiass> As long as they are still planning on including the coffee maker, I'm happy.
Jan 23 17:21:10 <MetaBookfoziS> hey, the wifi is not equal with coffe maker :/
Jan 23 17:21:38 <Woland> ja-ja, coffee maker better %+))
Jan 23 17:22:13 <MetaBookfoziS> so have yours checked ralink? what they sell?
Jan 23 17:22:21 <tchuladdiass> Well, I did read something about them including java, so I figured you'd have to have a coffee maker for that.
Jan 23 17:22:42 <CM> MetaBookfoziS: I think the ones who are in charge have. It's been mentioned before at least
Jan 23 17:23:02 <MetaBookfoziS> http://web.ralinktech.com/
Jan 23 17:23:08 <MetaBookfoziS> what?
Jan 23 17:23:20 <MetaBookfoziS> i'm don't understand
Jan 23 17:24:07 <CM> There have been discussions about wifi before, but it's a thing for version 2
Jan 23 17:24:24 <MetaBookfoziS> yep...
Jan 23 17:24:32 <Kaloz> heh
Jan 23 17:24:54 <Kaloz> that Robert Michel guy replies to every damn letter with a new and even longer subject? o.O
Jan 23 17:24:55 <MetaBookfoziS> Szevasz Kaloz:)
Jan 23 17:25:24 <Kaloz> hali :)
Jan 23 17:25:45 <tchuladdiass> I've never had good luck with imbedded wifi.  Just comparing my zaurs sl-6000 with built-in wifi, v.s. using other models with a wifi cf adapter. the external cf card gets better range.
Jan 23 17:25:46 <MetaBookfoziS> You are the second hungarian since i'm in this room (~3days ago) ;)
Jan 23 17:26:08 <Kaloz> MetaBookfoziS: btw I've suggested Atheros AR6001 cards for v2 before - sdio, gpl'ed drivers
Jan 23 17:26:21 <tchuladdiass> So if a future version does include wifi, I would hope that it would have an external antenna connection.
Jan 23 17:27:08 <MetaBookfoziS> and a pluggable chimney (for the coffe maker)
Jan 23 17:29:52 <MetaBookfoziS> the unpowered usb hangs the wifi via usb idea:/
Jan 23 17:30:36 <MetaBookfoziS> so i need to create a little conenctor that have a wire to the accumulator, and two usb connector
Jan 23 17:30:58 <b_lindeijer> One could plug a powered USB hub to it right, and then connect WIFI?
Jan 23 17:31:27 <MetaBookfoziS> but that is not too movable...
Jan 23 17:31:45 <tchuladdiass> b_lindeijer: yes, in fact one that has been recommended to me is the battery powered one from cyberlink
Jan 23 17:31:52 <MetaBookfoziS> i think aobut i buy a very little pendrive style wifi device
Jan 23 17:32:02 <MetaBookfoziS> and then plug it, but that is not possible
Jan 23 17:35:09 <b_lindeijer> tchuladdiass: Alright, cool.
Jan 23 17:36:16 <b_lindeijer> Btw, the resolution on this thing is unprecedented or what?
Jan 23 17:36:32 <b_lindeijer> Even the iPhone has only half that, while its screen is bigger?
Jan 23 17:36:55 <b_lindeijer> The screenshots look hot.
Jan 23 17:37:05 <CM> It's definitely a first for such a cheap device
Jan 23 17:37:08 <aloril> yes (though some HTC machine has VGA too)
Jan 23 17:37:10 <spikebik1> indeed
Jan 23 17:37:14 <spikebik1> highest DPI I've seen
Jan 23 17:37:23 <spikebik1> alas I suspect it might be somewhat of a waste
Jan 23 17:37:37 <tchuladdiass> does it ship with a magnifying glass?
Jan 23 17:37:47 <MetaBookfoziS> what it's display rate? 6:9?
Jan 23 17:38:28 <MetaBookfoziS> oh 640*480, sorry:)
Jan 23 17:38:42 <b_lindeijer> Tja I know 640x480 from my old 14" screen, but this is going to be 2.8" :)
Jan 23 17:38:52 <dw_swe> MetaBookfoziS: Remove casing on wifi make som new case with battery and voltage regulation and mount to phone, but it will still be bulky.. 
Jan 23 17:39:08 <MetaBookfoziS> and wararnty is hangs:)
Jan 23 17:39:15 <MetaBookfoziS> oh yes! is there any warranty for it?
Jan 23 17:39:40 <dw_swe> ooh..  sure, but i would not hesitate.. 
Jan 23 17:39:53 <MetaBookfoziS> :))
Jan 23 17:39:54 <dw_swe> dont know about warranty on neo
Jan 23 17:40:26 <MetaBookfoziS> i think i make a cable like an ear speaker
Jan 23 17:40:36 <MetaBookfoziS> and i put to my pocket the battery and the other things
Jan 23 17:40:36 <MetaBookfoziS> :D
Jan 23 17:41:20 <dw_swe> Yea, that would also work, and gives possibly space for bigger battery -> longer online life! =)
Jan 23 17:41:32 <MetaBookfoziS> :D
Jan 23 17:41:58 <MetaBookfoziS> or some little generators to my shoes, then when i run it is charging:)
Jan 23 17:42:21 <dw_swe> How much power might a usb-wifi chip draw?
Jan 23 17:42:39 <dw_swe> solar cells on backpack or such.
Jan 23 17:42:43 <MetaBookfoziS> wifi needs alot 
Jan 23 17:42:48 <MetaBookfoziS> i think
Jan 23 17:42:53 <spikebik1> dunno
Jan 23 17:43:14 <dw_swe> mmm..  but thougth someone might have some numbers?
Jan 23 17:43:15 <spikebik1> my nokia 770 can drive a bright 800x480 screen + wifi for many hours on a small battery
Jan 23 17:43:29 <MetaBookfoziS> but i will meter my usb bluetooth device when i have time
Jan 23 17:43:35 <MetaBookfoziS> and i tell:)
Jan 23 17:43:48 <dw_swe> Ok =)
Jan 23 17:44:04 <MetaBookfoziS> in my phone  iirc (as the docs said) the bt needs 70-80mah
Jan 23 17:44:06 <dw_swe> Humm.  but bluetooth draws alot less i think?
Jan 23 17:44:22 <MetaBookfoziS> bt is on the same freq as wifi, not?
Jan 23 17:44:35 <MetaBookfoziS> so i think the two is near itselves
Jan 23 17:44:54 <dottedmag> spikebik1: nokia ppl are not constrained to the chips with open drivers.
Jan 23 17:45:45 <SpeedEvil> dw_swe: 200mA or so - for a USB one at 5V, not transmitting all the time.
Jan 23 17:45:49 <dw_swe> bt is shorter range, and specified? for lowpower usage
Jan 23 17:45:51 <SpeedEvil> Call it a watt.
Jan 23 17:46:12 <SpeedEvil> Maybe 2 hours battery life with a 1200mAh li-ion.
Jan 23 17:46:36 <dw_swe> Ok thanks! That is alot of power usage in a mobile..
Jan 23 17:47:15 <SpeedEvil> The fundamental problem is that the protocol wasn't designed to be able to switch off the radio for long periods.
Jan 23 17:47:29 <SpeedEvil> As you pretty much need to to hit really low power figures with current tech.
Jan 23 17:47:30 <MetaBookfoziS> dw_swe > yes that is true, bt is generally optimised for little devices
Jan 23 17:47:42 <SpeedEvil> the protocol = wifi
Jan 23 17:48:26 <cying_work> wifi is getting better
Jan 23 17:48:31 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Jan 23 17:48:36 <spikebik1> yeah in general bt is much lower power
Jan 23 17:48:37 <cying_work> but still needs a lot of power
Jan 23 17:48:41 <spikebik1> and much slower
Jan 23 17:48:44 <SpeedEvil> Chipsets getting cleverer, and advances in process.
Jan 23 17:48:47 <spikebik1> and much less range
Jan 23 17:49:13 <cying_work> there are a few vendors that are building unified radio chipsets
Jan 23 17:49:15 <spikebik1> I have a tiny gps that can sleep with BT on for 300 hours
Jan 23 17:49:22 <cying_work> that do GSM, WCDMA and wifi all in one
Jan 23 17:49:25 <spikebik1> I've seen bluetooth + gps chipsets
Jan 23 17:49:54 <dw_swe> So if one ads external wifi there ougth to be som software regulated switch for the wifi chip also connected to usb.
Jan 23 17:50:50 <mikesh> hi all
Jan 23 17:50:52 <SpeedEvil> Software regulated switch?
Jan 23 17:51:04 <SpeedEvil> There is no power to the external USB
Jan 23 17:51:07 <mikesh> is it possible to port OpenTTD game to OpenMoko?
Jan 23 17:51:35 <CM> mikesh: Probably. That's mentioned in the unofficial wiki
Jan 23 17:51:44 <dw_swe> yes, external battery -> voltage regulator with usb connection -> wifi chip   =)
Jan 23 17:51:59 <mikesh> CM: ok, ill check it
Jan 23 17:52:06 <SpeedEvil> Oh - right.
Jan 23 17:53:09 <dw_swe> SpeedEvil: possibly som microcontroller, dont know of any V regulators with usb =(
Jan 23 17:53:25 <SpeedEvil> You mean for an external?
Jan 23 17:53:31 <SpeedEvil> There isn't really any need.
Jan 23 17:53:42 <SpeedEvil> A small bettery, to power a USB device.
Jan 23 17:53:48 <SpeedEvil> with a regulator.
Jan 23 17:54:00 <SpeedEvil> Turning it off programatically is interesting though.
Jan 23 17:54:29 <dw_swe> No, possibly no need for regulator... 
Jan 23 17:54:58 <SpeedEvil> There is a need for a regulator to do it right, USB is tightly specified in terms of voltage.
Jan 23 17:55:07 <SpeedEvil> 5V+-10% IIRC
Jan 23 17:58:22 <noidd> seen mickey;
Jan 23 17:58:24 <noidd> seen mickeyl
Jan 23 18:00:19 <dw_swe> SpeedEvil: mmm..  ok, but worth a try without..
Jan 23 18:00:48 <SpeedEvil> Not really. Things tend to stop working in permenant ways.
Jan 23 18:00:59 <SpeedEvil> And regulators are not expensive or large.
Jan 23 18:01:21 <dw_swe> true
Jan 23 18:02:07 <SpeedEvil> And you need some minimal smarts anyway to do charging.
Jan 23 18:02:42 <MetaBookfoziS> i can'T run natively apps on this device, true?
Jan 23 18:02:45 <SpeedEvil> no
Jan 23 18:02:48 <MetaBookfoziS> for a brutal example, firefox?
Jan 23 18:02:50 <SpeedEvil> You can.
Jan 23 18:02:56 <SpeedEvil> You probably could run FF
Jan 23 18:03:00 <MetaBookfoziS> eh
Jan 23 18:03:09 <SpeedEvil> it may need to swap to flash though.
Jan 23 18:03:15 <SpeedEvil> As it uses a hell of a lot of RAM.
Jan 23 18:03:18 <MetaBookfoziS> yes.. 
Jan 23 18:03:30 <MetaBookfoziS> if i have 4 openmoko, i can build a cluster
Jan 23 18:03:35 <b_lindeijer> What does it mean that you can't run apps natively on this device?
Jan 23 18:03:40 <SpeedEvil> You can.
Jan 23 18:03:41 <MetaBookfoziS> to run firefox ;)
Jan 23 18:03:57 <SpeedEvil> You can run any program you can concieve of, that will fit.
Jan 23 18:04:02 <SpeedEvil> and that you can write.
Jan 23 18:04:07 <SpeedEvil> Or download source.
Jan 23 18:04:14 <MetaBookfoziS> it's brutal
Jan 23 18:04:15 <MetaBookfoziS> :)
Jan 23 18:04:24 <dottedmag> hm. is there any special input methods, beside the touchscreen (should be seen as usual mouse from the application view, I suppose?)
Jan 23 18:04:32 <SpeedEvil> Buttons
Jan 23 18:04:39 <SpeedEvil> and mic IIRC
Jan 23 18:04:45 <SpeedEvil> then there is the GSM radio.
Jan 23 18:04:45 <b_lindeijer> Well I will be interested in porting The Mana World over.
Jan 23 18:05:01 <dottedmag> ah, and how about on-screen keyboard or sth like this?
Jan 23 18:05:05 <SpeedEvil> There are no accellerometers or light sensors, or cameras, or that sort of thing.
Jan 23 18:05:26 <dottedmag> uh, I don't need such sort of crap. I just wanna old good Emacs :)
Jan 23 18:05:29 <CM> dottedmag: Some people, including me, have been interested in hexinput
Jan 23 18:05:29 <b_lindeijer> I have no idea about bandwidth and latency on GPRS connections though.
Jan 23 18:05:41 <MetaBookfoziS> dottedmag > yep, thats intrest me, is that possible to typing -in usable and human way- on it?
Jan 23 18:05:44 <SpeedEvil> 8kbits/sec
Jan 23 18:05:50 <SpeedEvil> or so, minimum
Jan 23 18:05:59 <b_lindeijer> And round trip time? :)
Jan 23 18:06:07 <SpeedEvil> under a hundred ms.
Jan 23 18:06:12 <b_lindeijer> Oh that's decent.
Jan 23 18:06:14 <paulproteus> SpeedEvil, Hmm, that's not fast enough to do Internet Radio. )-:
Jan 23 18:06:21 <SpeedEvil> IRC is quite possible.
Jan 23 18:06:26 <MetaBookfoziS> :)
Jan 23 18:06:28 <paulproteus> (-:
Jan 23 18:06:42 <SpeedEvil> Internet radio - generally not - but you can in some circumstances get 28K or so speeds.
Jan 23 18:06:44 <b_lindeijer> Although GPRS offers are quite expensive aren't they? Or is that only with prepaid?
Jan 23 18:06:51 <SpeedEvil> It depends where you are.
Jan 23 18:07:02 <SpeedEvil> Ask your local phone operator...
Jan 23 18:07:18 <b_lindeijer> My current one, Aldi Talk, charges a lot for GPRS.
Jan 23 18:08:06 <b_lindeijer> UMTS is pretty cheap here now, for like 10 euro a month flatrate.
Jan 23 18:08:14 <dottedmag> b_lindeijer: well, GPRS is ~17 cents per MB here.
Jan 23 18:09:27 <b_lindeijer> WAP is GPRS right? 0.20 cents a minute here.
Jan 23 18:09:28 <paulproteus> That *is* enough bandwidth for VoIP, though.
Jan 23 18:10:01 <paulproteus> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess - can someone document what standard the phone supports here?
Jan 23 18:10:17 <dottedmag> b_lindeijer: it depends. If it is 'per minute' then it's not over GPRS. WAP over GPRS should be 'per megabyte' or sth like this
Jan 23 18:11:55 <b_lindeijer> dottedmag: Hmm, interesting.
Jan 23 18:12:26 <CM> paulproteus: I agree, GPRS is missing from that page, and bluetooth is 2.0 EDR
Jan 23 18:12:57 <paulproteus> Er, I don't know what you mean, so maybe you should just edit the page. (-:
Jan 23 18:13:34 <CM> Hehe.. I can do that, but I wasn't sure if you were already doing that. :-)
Jan 23 18:13:47 <paulproteus> Nope, I don't know enough to do it. (-:
Jan 23 18:14:01 <b_lindeijer> dottedmag: Ah, it says 0.029 cent per KB for WAP and 0.009 cent per KB for Internet-Mobile.
Jan 23 18:14:32 <b_lindeijer> That's still over 9 euro for one MB.
Jan 23 18:14:54 <paulproteus> Wait, is 0.029 cent  < 0.01 euro?
Jan 23 18:15:27 <b_lindeijer> Brr, 0.029 euro I mean...
Jan 23 18:15:35 <paulproteus> Okay.
Jan 23 18:17:13 <b_lindeijer> Now I am pretty clueless on the difference between WAP and Internet-Mobile.
Jan 23 18:17:26 <SpeedEvil> WAP is WAP, internet mobile is GPRS
Jan 23 18:17:37 <b_lindeijer> So what will my phone to when I request gmail.com?
Jan 23 18:17:42 <SpeedEvil> WAP is sort of web pages, but designed for mobiles
Jan 23 18:17:51 <SpeedEvil> and over different protocols.
Jan 23 18:17:57 <b_lindeijer> phone do*
Jan 23 18:18:06 <SpeedEvil> in that case, it just connects through GPRS as normal
Jan 23 18:18:24 <b_lindeijer> Ok.
Jan 23 18:19:00 <SpeedEvil> like ethernet/...
Jan 23 18:19:16 <dottedmag> b_lindeijer: providers bill the connections to their WAP gateway differently
Jan 23 18:19:35 <b_lindeijer> I see.
Jan 23 18:19:39 <CM> WAP sucks, at least all pages I've tried
Jan 23 18:20:00 <b_lindeijer> Yes I don't need WAP, would just be nice to be able to connect to the internet.
Jan 23 18:20:06 <CM> OperaMini finally made it ok to actually surf on a k750i :)
Jan 23 18:22:34 <mawali> can someone be kind to tell me how I can get the source to openmoko?
Jan 23 18:22:46 <Zer0Her0> mawali: wait
Jan 23 18:22:48 <Zer0Her0> ;)
Jan 23 18:22:54 * SpeedEvil points at the topic
Jan 23 18:22:55 <Zer0Her0> won't be released till 2/11
Jan 23 18:23:14 <mawali> got it
Jan 23 18:36:48 <lassey> technically WAP is the transport
Jan 23 18:37:01 <lassey> responding to earlier
Jan 23 18:37:08 <lassey> roughly WAP = HTTP
Jan 23 18:37:14 <lassey> WML = HTML
Jan 23 18:37:25 <lassey> roughly
Jan 23 18:37:26 <SpeedEvil> WAP = HTTP + IP/TCP AIUI.
Jan 23 18:37:44 <lassey> its a protocol
Jan 23 18:37:52 <lassey> it can sit on any protocol
Jan 23 18:37:54 <lassey> just like http
Jan 23 18:37:58 <SpeedEvil> oh
Jan 23 18:38:28 <lassey> http sits on top of tcp, which sits on top of udp which sits on top of ip
Jan 23 18:39:00 <lassey> like I said, their rough equivalents 
Jan 23 18:39:19 <lassey> most networks run wap over IP today anyway
Jan 23 18:40:49 <b_lindeijer> I don't think I will ever get it. Did that whole WAP thing ever make any sense? I guess just in the few years that mobile phone screens displayed 2-3 lines of text and all people could think about were lottery, weather and sports.
Jan 23 18:41:12 <pgas> hmm tcp is not on top of udp afaik
Jan 23 18:42:37 <b_lindeijer> I don't think so either.
Jan 23 18:43:57 <noidd> yeah, tcp is not on udp
Jan 23 18:44:04 <noidd>     ip
Jan 23 18:44:27 <lassey> I stand corrected
Jan 23 18:45:50 <mawali> I heard that the developer version of the phone will be shipped soon, I have not see any way to buy it
Jan 23 19:10:09 <epsino> hi
Jan 23 19:12:08 <epsino> hello
Jan 23 19:12:50 <thedaniel> hello epsino 
Jan 23 19:13:05 <epsino> any body know how to show the user list
Jan 23 19:13:12 <epsino> with XChat ?
Jan 23 19:13:24 <zipola> Ctrl+U
Jan 23 19:14:00 <epsino> mmmm is not working
Jan 23 19:14:34 <epsino> ok, dont worry
Jan 23 19:15:16 <epsino> do you know how the neo1973 will be sell ?
Jan 23 19:15:35 <epsino> any body know a link with a flash or video presentation ?
Jan 23 19:16:10 <mikesh> epsino: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg
Jan 23 19:17:03 <epsino> i know it, but dont show the phone in action
Jan 23 19:17:31 <epsino> i am searching more action
Jan 23 19:17:32 <noidd> The timescales have been published.
Jan 23 19:17:38 <mawali> I want that thing soooo bad
Jan 23 19:18:00 <noidd> 2007-02-11 Phase 0: Developer Preview
Jan 23 19:18:09 <noidd> Giveaway of phones to invited developers.
Jan 23 19:18:09 <noidd>  
Jan 23 19:18:15 <noidd> 2007-03-11 Phase 1: Official Developer Launch
Jan 23 19:18:37 <noidd> Phones are for sale on openmoko.com $350 plus s+H
Jan 23 19:18:45 <noidd> 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale
Jan 23 19:18:49 <noidd> Buy at your local store.
Jan 23 19:20:23 <noidd> 2007-09-11 is also introduction of rev2 of the hardware.
Jan 23 19:20:48 <noidd> 2008-02-11 Sending of free v2 phones to developers etc etc etc
Jan 23 19:20:51 <noidd> and repeated
Jan 23 19:23:13 <epsino> we are interested in sell the phone in our country, what do i to do ?
Jan 23 19:23:20 <buz> contact sean
Jan 23 19:25:56 <stefan_schmidt> esden: As buz stated. Contact Sean. He is busy, so perhaps it will take some time before he answer, but he is the right guy for your question.
Jan 23 19:31:30 <epsino> exists a video that show the phone in action ?
Jan 23 19:31:44 <CM> No, not yet
Jan 23 19:31:53 <CM> It has barely been produced yet
Jan 23 19:32:29 <epsino> java support is yet implemented or planed ?
Jan 23 19:32:51 <CM> It's planned, but it's up to the community to get it going
Jan 23 19:33:35 <CM> The build system is based on openembedded.org, so if they get it going it should be easy to get on the Neo
Jan 23 19:34:47 <epsino> how i can help ? exists any embedded linux java vm for j2me/cdc ?
Jan 23 19:36:57 <CM> esden: I don't know, but maybe http://community.java.net/mobileandembedded/ is a start :)
Jan 23 19:37:10 <thedaniel> looks like someone is starting to work on it  http://www.oesf.org/forums/index.php?showtopic=21995&hl=
Jan 23 19:38:01 <esden> I seem to be standing in some peoples autocompletion lists before epsino ;)
Jan 23 19:38:14 <CM> esden: Sorry..
Jan 23 19:38:47 <CM> Not used to having almost 200ppl in the same channel ;)
Jan 23 19:38:49 <esden> CM: no problem ... I was just wordering why I get notifications of mentioning my name in openmoko
Jan 23 19:39:26 <Odin-LAP> CM: 201, actually. Though not all qualify as people.
Jan 23 19:39:55 <CM> apt: What are you?
Jan 23 19:39:57 <apt> I am a blootbot. For more info see <blootbot>
Jan 23 19:40:03 <esden> Odin-LAP: most of them are probably such spectators as I am ind idling around ;)
Jan 23 19:40:15 * CM is a parrot
Jan 23 19:40:18 <Odin-LAP> esden: Yes, quite traditional.
Jan 23 19:40:34 <epsino> sorry esden
Jan 23 19:41:06 <esden> Odin-LAP: but it shows how much interest openmoko concentrates. Otherwise noone would be here not even the idlers.
Jan 23 19:41:25 <esden> epsino: it is not your fault ... do not worry
Jan 23 19:41:57 <Odin-LAP> esden: Perhaps.
Jan 23 19:42:09 <Odin-LAP> esden: Good to know, though, means the project may in fact be viable. ;)
Jan 23 19:43:11 <esden> Odin-LAP: I will make that decision when there are people actually having the devices in their hands, and the first community developments start to emerge.
Jan 23 19:43:37 <Odin-LAP> esden: Note that I said "may".
Jan 23 19:43:45 * aevin is counting: only 47 days left!
Jan 23 19:43:58 <esden> Odin-LAP: yes, right
Jan 23 19:44:24 <esden> aevin: add some days for shipping ;)
Jan 23 19:44:33 <epsino> good luck with the project, and congratulations !!! i think that is an excelent project, i hope to get the phone soon !!!
Jan 23 19:44:41 <epsino> bye bye
Jan 23 19:44:50 <esden> cu epsino 
Jan 23 19:45:21 <CM> counter
Jan 23 19:45:21 <aloril> 2 weeks, 4 days for source availability and devices for selected developers;  1 month, 2 weeks, 2 days for any developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 6 days for mass market
Jan 23 19:46:23 <noidd> man, I am so impatient
Jan 23 19:46:32 <Odin-LAP> It seems you're not the only one.
Jan 23 19:46:44 <MeTa[AwAy]> yes.
Jan 23 19:46:53 <MeTa[AwAy]> you're not alone:)
Jan 23 19:48:00 <MetaMorfoziS> how fast is the primary ram in the device?
Jan 23 19:48:27 <MetaMorfoziS> mb/s, i mean
Jan 23 19:48:39 <Odin-LAP> You may say I'm a dreamer, but I'm not the only one...
Jan 23 19:52:35 <noidd> wb hrw
Jan 23 19:56:32 <buz> MetaMorfoziS: google for samsung s3c2410
Jan 23 19:57:25 <b_lindeijer> How can you make a chance of being one of the selected developers?
Jan 23 19:57:57 <hrw> b_lindeijer: mailed coreteam like it is mentioned on webpage?
Jan 23 19:58:04 <b_lindeijer> Ah whoops, sorry.
Jan 23 19:58:41 <b_lindeijer> Well I wouldn't be selected anyway. :P
Jan 23 19:58:50 <b_lindeijer> I'm just really interested in trying to port a game to it. :)
Jan 23 19:59:07 <noidd> what game out of curiosity?
Jan 23 19:59:16 <b_lindeijer> The Mana World, a free 2D MMORPG.
Jan 23 19:59:34 <noidd> I was about to ask if it was networked
Jan 23 19:59:54 <noidd> but I know the answer has to be yes otherwise it wouldn't be an MMOrpg
Jan 23 19:59:54 <b_lindeijer> I guess the most tricky part will be communication between players.
Jan 23 20:00:49 <b_lindeijer> Playing the game could be mostly done with the stylus.
Jan 23 20:01:18 <b_lindeijer> Well assuming stuff like SDL, SDL_image, SDL_net, etc. all works fine.
Jan 23 20:01:23 <leventhal> EQ and FFXI for PS2 solved that with gestures triggering text macros, and voip
Jan 23 20:01:30 <b_lindeijer> Interesting.
Jan 23 20:01:40 <MetaMorfoziS> as i see, not too public information the speed
Jan 23 20:01:41 <MetaMorfoziS> http://www.samsung.com/Products/Semiconductor/SystemLSI/C_CSOCSolution/C_CSOCSolution04.htm
Jan 23 20:01:50 <leventhal> And then there was Diplomacy for OS 7.x where you talked with the computer by rearranging symbol blocks to form sentences
Jan 23 20:02:02 <leventhal> Which'd be pretty intuitive for a stylus
Jan 23 20:02:03 <b_lindeijer> Hehe.
Jan 23 20:02:16 <hrw> b_lindeijer: SDL will works ok
Jan 23 20:02:32 <MetaMorfoziS> what is the max speed of the best sd card?
Jan 23 20:02:38 <b_lindeijer> hrw: That's cool. :)
Jan 23 20:02:45 <MetaMorfoziS> (i touching about the swap speed)
Jan 23 20:02:56 <hrw> MetaMorfoziS: not so very fast
Jan 23 20:03:17 <MetaMorfoziS> what, the swapping or the sd card?
Jan 23 20:05:59 <noidd> you want to avoid swapping on SD.  SD cards have limited writability and if you use it for swap is will eventually fail.
Jan 23 20:06:34 <hrw> noidd: cards can be cheap
Jan 23 20:06:48 <hrw> MetaMorfoziS: sd card will be not highspeed rather
Jan 23 20:07:43 <MetaMorfoziS> but 5-6 mb/sec is enough, not?
Jan 23 20:08:07 <MetaMorfoziS> it's a stupid qustion...
Jan 23 20:08:58 <hrw> I do not know will it get to 5-6M
Jan 23 20:11:20 <xorAxAx> did you know that the sd spec disallows any other fs than fat32? :)
Jan 23 20:11:27 <xorAxAx> (or fat16)
Jan 23 20:12:08 <hrw> xorAxAx: I know that sometimes it is a problem
Jan 23 20:13:21 <Sketch> sd cards are pretty cheap these days, you can get 2gb cards for <US$20
Jan 23 20:13:51 <hrw> Sketch: SD are cheaper then microsd
Jan 23 20:14:12 <Sketch> ah, didn't realize we were talking microSD :)
Jan 23 20:14:28 <Sketch> the smaller cards are pretty cheap for those too, but not as cheap
Jan 23 20:14:48 <Sketch> seems like both of them get cheaper every time i look
Jan 23 20:20:00 <MetaMorfoziS> hm,shit
Jan 23 20:20:17 <MetaMorfoziS> a 2gb microsd in hungary 2048MB SECURITY DIGITAL CARD TWINMOS (150X)	13 750,- Ft	16 500,- Ft	14 750,- Ft	17 700,- Ft	59,- ?	71,- ?
Jan 23 20:20:24 <MetaMorfoziS> fsck.
Jan 23 20:20:49 <MetaMorfoziS> i think i'm buy that from abroad;)
Jan 23 20:21:02 <hrw> ~change 58 pln to usd
Jan 23 20:21:11 <apt> 58.00 Zloty (PLN) makes 19.4690 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Jan 23 20:21:25 <hrw> 1GB microsd cheapest
Jan 23 20:21:43 <MetaMorfoziS> 1change 71 eur to usd
Jan 23 20:21:47 <MetaMorfoziS> ~change 71 eur to usd
Jan 23 20:21:52 <apt> 71.00 Euro (EUR) makes 92.4802 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Jan 23 20:23:00 <MetaMorfoziS> Sketch > in march, you buyy a 4gb one for me (for 20usd), and i buy from you;)
Jan 23 20:23:09 <LittleIdiot> uah! one of the asterisk.org "web developers" takes lsd.
Jan 23 20:23:27 <LittleIdiot> at least the one that selected the colors for it...
Jan 23 20:24:30 <CM> LittleIdiot: Hehe.. Yikes
Jan 23 20:25:02 <rob_w> LittleIdiot, i do like the orange actually 
Jan 23 20:25:28 <LittleIdiot> orange is fine... but combined with purple... uh, i don't know...
Jan 23 20:25:51 <CM> Doesn't fade nicely.. Red would have worked
Jan 23 20:25:58 <rob_w> yeah the purple then stick in the eyes middle 
Jan 23 20:26:24 <CM> I wonder how OpenMoko will be themed, and how easy/hard it will be to make a good one
Jan 23 20:26:59 <hrw> CM: gtk is hard to theme good
Jan 23 20:27:03 <rob_w> i hope the kick some effects into gtk .. 
Jan 23 20:27:17 <LittleIdiot> anyway... i wanted to follow the ideas that include gps position reporting and send it via dtmf. i know asterisk can demodulate and read them ;)
Jan 23 20:27:41 <hrw> CM: http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2006/10/28/gtk-theming-woes-for-embedded-guis/
Jan 23 20:28:10 <CM> hrw: Thanks, I'm reading
Jan 23 20:28:27 <rob_w> hrw, i really adore gtk 
Jan 23 20:28:39 <hrw> rob_w: I prefer Qt
Jan 23 20:28:48 <hrw> but will learn GTK
Jan 23 20:28:57 <rob_w> but i feel the themeing needs more love to be used
Jan 23 20:29:23 <rob_w> Qt is many times wonderfull
Jan 23 20:30:36 <rob_w> for small screens one needs the application that is only button driven .. 
Jan 23 20:31:48 <ninHer> hi all
Jan 23 20:36:07 <b_lindeijer> wonderful*
Jan 23 20:36:24 <LittleIdiot> will we be able to limit the gsm transmit power?
Jan 23 20:36:59 <rob_w> LittleIdiot, u bet
Jan 23 20:37:42 <LittleIdiot> when i'm at university there are some rooms that are, at least supposed to, be tempest safe. in these rooms you won't get receiption anyways and the phone would just drain the batteries by trying to connect
Jan 23 20:50:31 <Odin-LAP> Why does a university need TEMPEST? O_o
Jan 23 20:50:54 <greentux> who you dont switch the phone into flightmode
Jan 23 20:55:14 <LittleIdiot> they evaluate hard & software for some companies... i think somebody just had too much money to waste for it.
Jan 23 20:55:49 <Odin-LAP> Crazy.
Jan 23 20:56:24 <LittleIdiot> copacobana.org another crazy project from them ;)
Jan 23 20:58:38 <Odin-LAP> Auf Deutsch?
Jan 23 20:59:32 <LittleIdiot> oh, add www. ;)
Jan 23 20:59:59 <xorAxAx> society for it security and incorrectly configured vhosts
Jan 23 21:00:11 <LittleIdiot> hehe
Jan 23 21:00:24 <Odin-LAP> Interesting.
Jan 23 21:00:40 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: do you know the wpa-crackers?
Jan 23 21:00:51 <xorAxAx> the verilog code is open source
Jan 23 21:00:55 <Odin-LAP> I take it they're into fairly exotic security stuff?
Jan 23 21:01:03 <Odin-LAP> xorAxAx: Hm. Can't say I do, no.
Jan 23 21:01:06 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: that doesnt sound exotic on that pae
Jan 23 21:01:12 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: see the 23c3 pages
Jan 23 21:01:16 <xorAxAx> they held a presentation
Jan 23 21:01:42 <xorAxAx> basically, you buy a large fpga, then you transfer the cracker and the key onto the fpga and let it calculate
Jan 23 21:01:53 <Odin-LAP> xorAxAx: TEMPEST and exhaustive DES key search are fairly ... useless. But, whatever. :p
Jan 23 21:01:57 <xorAxAx> and they sell dvds with precalculated tables :)
Jan 23 21:02:03 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: no, not at all
Jan 23 21:02:08 <xorAxAx> DES is very weak
Jan 23 21:02:23 <xorAxAx> maybe they dont have fpga in iceland, i dont know :)
Jan 23 21:02:46 <xorAxAx> and wpa can be easily cracked as well if the key is short
Jan 23 21:03:07 <Odin-LAP> DES is indeed very weak. Which is why nothing interesting is protected by it these days. ;)
Jan 23 21:03:21 <xorAxAx> hmm, there are some things still using 3-DES
Jan 23 21:03:36 <LittleIdiot> 3-des is ok, if used correctly ;)
Jan 23 21:03:46 <Odin-LAP> Yes, but exhaustive search against that remains impractical, really.
Jan 23 21:03:55 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: no, its still weak
Jan 23 21:04:08 <LittleIdiot> xorAxAx: go, break 112 bit.
Jan 23 21:04:13 <Odin-LAP> It's weaker than AES, yes.
Jan 23 21:04:57 <LittleIdiot> its always a question of money, but you
Jan 23 21:05:21 <noidd> Ok, random question about the phone
Jan 23 21:05:22 <LittleIdiot> *argh* daim keyboard ... where was i - ...cant crack 3des on current computers
Jan 23 21:05:31 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: see the EFF RSA events
Jan 23 21:05:32 <noidd> does anyone know what the Hole at the microphone end is for?
Jan 23 21:06:47 <LittleIdiot> you can do meet in the middle with 3des, but you need a lot of disk space...
Jan 23 21:06:49 <nonick01> a question: the neo1973 uses microsd or minisd?
Jan 23 21:07:37 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: copacabana  is cheap, look at deepcrack
Jan 23 21:07:44 <greentux> nonick01:  see website
Jan 23 21:08:57 <LittleIdiot> sure, but that one will only do single des, which does not mean you can crack 3des - big difference.
Jan 23 21:09:21 <LittleIdiot> it may do 3des, but exhaustive key search with 112 bits takes forever even with that thing.
Jan 23 21:09:34 <xorAxAx> yes
Jan 23 21:10:06 <LittleIdiot> so, 3des is secure for now ;)
Jan 23 21:11:09 <Odin-LAP> And likely a while yet. Still, I wouldn't suggest it be used for new developments...
Jan 23 21:11:22 <Odin-LAP> Since we're on the subject of encryption, though.
Jan 23 21:11:33 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: no
Jan 23 21:11:49 <xorAxAx> talking about security systems in such a simple manner is not sane :)
Jan 23 21:12:07 <Odin-LAP> Do you think it would be practicable to run AES to encrypt voice on the Neo1973?
Jan 23 21:12:07 <xorAxAx> who knows if there are different attack vectors :)
Jan 23 21:12:22 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: no, it wont be
Jan 23 21:12:40 <xorAxAx> because the audio infrastructure doesnt allow for that
Jan 23 21:12:51 <zecke> Odin-LAP: it all depends how the audio is routed
Jan 23 21:13:06 <xorAxAx> zecke: analogous
Jan 23 21:13:22 <xorAxAx> that was one of LaF0rge's 31 answers :)
Jan 23 21:13:33 <zecke> ah okay :)
Jan 23 21:13:46 <Odin-LAP> xorAxAx: Wait ... you mean the code has no access to the audio subsystem?
Jan 23 21:14:04 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: the "audio subsystem" is closed source like 50% of the phone
Jan 23 21:14:09 <xorAxAx> its implemented in hardware
Jan 23 21:14:23 <nonick01> a question: why is the neo1973 not going to have infrared port?
Jan 23 21:14:27 <xorAxAx> i.e. the gsm chip just accepts analogous audio
Jan 23 21:14:32 <hrw> nonick01: lack of serial ports
Jan 23 21:14:34 <LittleIdiot> xorAxAx: interested in a query about that topic? ;)
Jan 23 21:15:28 <Odin-LAP> xorAxAx: I'm not thinking about transmitting through GSM, actually.
Jan 23 21:15:34 <nonick01> well... equally soon the old phones without bluetooth will be totally uncommon
Jan 23 21:15:43 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: sure
Jan 23 21:15:46 <noidd> xorAxAx: are you sure that the sound is closed?
Jan 23 21:15:58 <xorAxAx> noidd: i have never said that
Jan 23 21:15:58 <noidd> are you saying that the audio in and out is part of the GSM module?
Jan 23 21:16:05 <noidd> ok, let me rephrase
Jan 23 21:16:16 <xorAxAx> i am saying that gsm is accepting audio via a pin
Jan 23 21:16:23 <noidd> Ah, I misunderstood
Jan 23 21:16:26 <noidd> sorry :-0
Jan 23 21:16:33 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: oh, how?
Jan 23 21:16:44 <noidd> can you route audio from your sound chip to the GSM audio input?
Jan 23 21:16:50 <noidd> in software
Jan 23 21:16:55 <xorAxAx> noidd: no idea
Jan 23 21:17:23 <xorAxAx> but the primary issue would be to develop a codec that can tunnel through the gsm codecs
Jan 23 21:17:34 <nonick01> also the phone should have at least a vga camera but I heard that the sensors should be too little and the photos should like bad
Jan 23 21:17:39 <xorAxAx> and then transmit your voice via that
Jan 23 21:17:49 <nonick01> sorry for my english :(
Jan 23 21:20:36 <emulsion> I know this has probably been asked 1,000 times before but can ne1 tell me what date i, as an non-developer, can order the phone?
Jan 23 21:21:14 <Odin-LAP> xorAxAx: I'm wondering about the possibility of using this thing as an encrypted tactical radio, basically. The two bottlenecks I'm not sure about are the ability to route audio properly (you can't do it with existing phones, from what I've seen) and the transmission properties. The method I've been thinking of is Bluetooth. I'd have to get a bit more up to speed with exactly how it works, though. :p
Jan 23 21:22:28 <xorAxAx> Odin-LAP: umm, bluetooth is very limited in range :)
Jan 23 21:22:56 <Odin-LAP> xorAxAx: Just how limited?
Jan 23 21:23:11 * Odin-LAP recalls at least *talk* of ten metres or so.
Jan 23 21:23:27 <pike_> Odin-LAP: i guess it might come in handy sending messages in class. if youre close
Jan 23 21:23:31 <hrw> BT has 3 classes: 1m, 10m, 100m
Jan 23 21:23:43 <hrw> common used are 10m and 100m
Jan 23 21:23:53 <hrw> Neo1973 probably have 10m one
Jan 23 21:24:10 <Odin-LAP> What's the range in practice?
Jan 23 21:24:31 <hrw> never tested
Jan 23 21:25:26 <mattb> emulsion: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html
Jan 23 21:25:45 <mattb> as pointed to by the topic ;p
Jan 23 21:26:04 <spikebik1> my nokia770 + gps manages 10M or so line of sight
Jan 23 21:26:08 <emulsion> thx
Jan 23 21:26:14 <spikebik1> not tried it through walls
Jan 23 21:26:20 <greentux> xorAxAx:  there are some codecs developed now. But the quality sounds not very useful atm
Jan 23 21:26:45 <spikebik1> you could do voip kinda stuff over GPRS without horrible lag
Jan 23 21:26:53 <greentux> xorAxAx:  and only simplex, only usable in the same gsm network (because of recoding) etc etc
Jan 23 21:26:56 <spikebik1> would be much nicer with edge
Jan 23 21:26:56 <tchuladdiass> emulsion: to help clarify, the 03/11 date is targeted primarily to open source developers, but anyone can order it at that time.  But the "usable" version (for general public) will be 09/11.
Jan 23 21:27:11 <hrw> and some will get it 02/11
Jan 23 21:27:28 <greentux> and the mass of devs in 03/11
Jan 23 21:27:42 <emulsion> great, can't wait
Jan 23 21:28:14 <tchuladdiass> I think the 2/11 is the "give away" ones only, is that correct?
Jan 23 21:28:17 <xorAxAx> greentux: hmm, ok
Jan 23 21:28:24 <greentux> that means, FIC hopes the openmoko project will build a usable software from 2/11 till approc. 10/11 :)
Jan 23 21:29:13 <greentux> xorAxAx:  I heard one codec realised in hardware (dsp) and one in software. And You can understand the speech whole sitting in a studio.
Jan 23 21:29:41 <greentux> xorAxAx:  but at the airport etc... no chance. then its better you do some text to speech :)
Jan 23 21:29:47 <XorA|gone> greentux: #include angstrom.h :-)
Jan 23 21:30:14 <greentux> XorA|gone:  ?
Jan 23 21:30:24 <spikebik1> green seems plausible as long as it's delivered originally with the ability to send and receive phone calls
Jan 23 21:31:17 <XorA|gone> greentux: build usable software
Jan 23 21:31:34 <greentux> XorA|gone:  yes of course... :) 
Jan 23 21:33:09 <noidd> I wonder if the selling of devices to developers means that they can be classified as prototypes which means they don't need FCC approval ;-D
Jan 23 21:33:24 <spikebik1> dunno
Jan 23 21:33:35 <spikebik1> I heard some mention that the module used received FCC approval
Jan 23 21:33:52 <spikebik1> and was sufficiently separate to not require the phone to be tested
Jan 23 21:35:11 <LittleIdiot> fcc is american -- if you want to use it in other countries, you need other agencies to approve it
Jan 23 21:35:18 <greentux> noidd:  no openmoko need fcc approval
Jan 23 21:35:26 <greentux> in europe you need "ce"
Jan 23 21:35:45 <hrw> greentux: and ROHS compliance
Jan 23 21:36:01 <xorAxAx> yes
Jan 23 21:36:02 <xorAxAx> no lead
Jan 23 21:36:13 <greentux> only for radiation etc. but I have a sony ux-90 ordered in japan. no ce, no rohs. works fine
Jan 23 21:36:33 * greentux thinks that the nei is rohs compliant. its not a european phenomen
Jan 23 21:36:40 <LittleIdiot> it works, but some countries may restrict the power levels for it.
Jan 23 21:36:44 <greentux> s/nei/neo
Jan 23 21:36:58 <greentux> LittleIdiot:  which powerlevels? gsm?
Jan 23 21:37:28 <greentux> gsm is defined. there is a mx. power of 2W in 900 MHz. everywhere. for mobiles.
Jan 23 21:38:06 <spikebik1> does openmoko do 850 MHz?
Jan 23 21:38:08 <spikebik1> (gsm)
Jan 23 21:38:19 * SpeedEvil interested too.
Jan 23 21:38:23 <hrw> spikebik1: checked website?
Jan 23 21:38:32 <LittleIdiot> e.g. sending above 100mw with your wlan device without extra permissions is forbidden in germany. in the us you can afaik send with 200mw
Jan 23 21:38:35 <SpeedEvil> 850Mhz works well here.
Jan 23 21:38:55 <SpeedEvil> In my house - 2.4Ghz not really.
Jan 23 21:39:01 <SpeedEvil> Err - 1.8
Jan 23 21:39:09 <SpeedEvil> (50cm stone walls)
Jan 23 21:39:16 <LittleIdiot> i suppose there are limits for phones as well
Jan 23 21:39:25 <greentux> wlan is not the same worldwide. gsm is!
Jan 23 21:39:34 <tchuladdiass> spikebik1: yep, it is a quadband phone
Jan 23 21:39:45 <LittleIdiot> .11b/g, not a in this case ;)
Jan 23 21:39:50 <XorA|gone> 850,900,1700,1800
Jan 23 21:39:57 <Odin-LAP> GSM is a licenced band.
Jan 23 21:40:01 <greentux> 850 900 1800 1900
Jan 23 21:40:14 <xorAxAx> openmoko will be quad band
Jan 23 21:40:30 <spikebik1> I'm hoping openmoko version 2 supports Edge or better
Jan 23 21:41:08 <SpeedEvil> I think the only way everyone could be happy is plug-in PCI cards for the phone.
Jan 23 21:41:16 <SpeedEvil> All you need is a TARDIS module.
Jan 23 21:42:29 <LittleIdiot> i'm going to buy bluetooth accesspoints just to make free calls voip from places i hang out regularly.
Jan 23 21:42:35 <XorA|gone> now Id buy a TARDIS, but not with that crappy Tennant guy in it
Jan 23 21:42:58 <LittleIdiot> it's cheaper than subscribing to a flatrate plan... at least after a year it pays ;)
Jan 23 21:43:07 <spikebik1> sure
Jan 23 21:43:31 <spikebik1> not exactly transparent or particularly good for incoming calls
Jan 23 21:43:45 <rwhitby> spikebik1: openmoko v2 does not make sense - I think you mean neo 1973 v2
Jan 23 21:44:01 <nonick01> also openmoko should be available on other phones models
Jan 23 21:44:03 <rwhitby> "openmoko is a software platform and project, neo is a phone"
Jan 23 21:44:08 <LittleIdiot> i'll have an asterix at home which receives the calls and forwards it
Jan 23 21:44:23 * xorAxAx dislikes 4-digit model numbers :)
Jan 23 21:44:42 <rwhitby> xorAxAx: call it GTA-01 then
Jan 23 21:44:54 <nonick01> because I don't like palm-like phones
Jan 23 21:44:56 <xorAxAx> grand theft auto?
Jan 23 21:45:07 <LittleIdiot> my personal plan is: buy a "homezone" flatrate plan plus another 0-euro/month plan from the same provider. take the one with the 0-euro sim with me and connect the other one to the asterisk pbx... voilą
Jan 23 21:45:41 <spikebik1> rwhitby okay neo1973 v2... if it's still called that in it's second release
Jan 23 21:45:45 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: oooold idea :)
Jan 23 21:45:48 <LittleIdiot> with bluetooth available i can add encryption
Jan 23 21:46:50 <rwhitby> LittleIdiot: and run it all on an nslu2
Jan 23 21:47:04 <XorA|gone> just a pity its not fast enough for mpeg 4 :-(
Jan 23 21:47:42 * rwhitby boots mokoslug 1.0-alpha on his nslu2 ...
Jan 23 21:47:52 <tchuladdiass> But it should be fast enough to play ascii movies
Jan 23 21:47:58 <LittleIdiot> eumex 300 ip here - its a voip/isdn/analogue phone router
Jan 23 21:48:16 <greentux> cu
Jan 23 21:48:26 <LittleIdiot> actually its a cloaked fritzbox (c) (r) (tm)
Jan 23 21:48:42 * hrw need to think about router+AP+USB probably
Jan 23 21:49:16 <nonick01> so there will be low / medium class versions of the neo1973?
Jan 23 21:49:22 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: can it fetch beer?
Jan 23 21:49:31 <LittleIdiot> not yet ;)
Jan 23 21:49:34 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: do you have an isdn phone?
Jan 23 21:49:37 <hrw> nonick01: low version will be without gps and screen
Jan 23 21:49:39 <xorAxAx> attached to it
Jan 23 21:49:57 <tchuladdiass> xorAxAx: no, not the beer, but it can make coffee
Jan 23 21:50:05 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: try #96*6* 
Jan 23 21:50:05 <LittleIdiot> but my home controller board with speech recognition can turn on the caffee-machine already ;)
Jan 23 21:50:15 <xorAxAx> it will fetch bier
Jan 23 21:50:16 <xorAxAx> beer
Jan 23 21:50:20 <nonick01> also there should be a version with camera
Jan 23 21:50:31 <pike_> why do i get the feeling v2 will end up being the first general release..
Jan 23 21:50:37 <xorAxAx> (this is no joke, thats german engineering spirit)
Jan 23 21:50:41 <nonick01> even if that means removing the gps or some functions
Jan 23 21:50:53 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: and no, it wont do any harm
Jan 23 21:51:00 <LittleIdiot> xorAxAx: they didn't implemet that joke ;)
Jan 23 21:51:08 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: http://www.wehavemorefun.de/fritzbox/Versteckte_Features#.22Bier_holen.22_mit_FRITZ.21Box_Fon_WLAN
Jan 23 21:51:10 <LittleIdiot> the t-com guys left that one out
Jan 23 21:51:15 <xorAxAx> bad :-(
Jan 23 21:51:17 <LittleIdiot> yeah, i know ;)
Jan 23 21:51:48 <LittleIdiot> do you anything more about the "telefon" application?
Jan 23 21:52:06 <xorAxAx> telefon?
Jan 23 21:52:22 <MetaMorfoziS> telefon?
Jan 23 21:52:32 <xorAxAx> # telefon
Jan 23 21:52:34 <xorAxAx>  telefon: Socketfehler! 
Jan 23 21:52:35 <xorAxAx> ah
Jan 23 21:52:39 <LittleIdiot> it talks to the propritary isdn driver, but i haven't yet figured how
Jan 23 21:52:40 <hrw> telephone
Jan 23 21:52:44 <MetaMorfoziS> mayar-e vagy?
Jan 23 21:52:50 <MetaMorfoziS> g
Jan 23 21:53:33 <xorAxAx> -rwxrwxrwx    1 root     root       578068 Jul 26 14:38 telefon
Jan 23 21:53:34 <xorAxAx> ugh
Jan 23 21:53:45 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: thats a lot
Jan 23 21:53:51 <xorAxAx> does it contain vxworks? :)
Jan 23 21:54:22 <nonick01> neo1973 v2 = neo1973 + camera :)
Jan 23 21:54:25 <LittleIdiot> have you seen the other accounts "service" and "team"? ;)
Jan 23 21:55:03 <LittleIdiot> i wonder if they can have a shell with these on all their routers. and i wonder if everyone else can, too ;)
Jan 23 21:55:21 <xorAxAx> mine only has root
Jan 23 21:55:24 <xorAxAx> haha :)
Jan 23 21:55:37 <xorAxAx> (factory config)
Jan 23 21:56:13 <LittleIdiot> hmm, strange. i've had to remove them from the source archive
Jan 23 21:58:51 <nonick01> hmmm I think that the absence of a camera will go against this phone. Maybe it should be included in neo1973 v2?
Jan 23 21:59:27 <XorA|gone> cameras suck
Jan 23 22:00:14 <nonick01> why? at least a vga camera for quick photos :)
Jan 23 22:00:26 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: fritzbox here
Jan 23 22:00:29 <marcellus> I already have two digital cameras. I don't need another one.
Jan 23 22:00:33 <xorAxAx> LittleIdiot: not T-bnd-box
Jan 23 22:00:55 <nonick01> also not all the people has got a digital camera
Jan 23 22:01:13 <LittleIdiot> its the same hardware, you can flash it with the fritz firmware and vice versa, but it sells for ~one third on egay
Jan 23 22:07:04 <nonick01> well let the camera alone... the low version will be more like a normal phone as I heard... is that right?
Jan 23 22:15:11 <nonick01> :| irc emptied suddenly
Jan 23 22:16:45 <hrw> I'm editing article for one Linux event.
Jan 23 22:21:05 <SpeedEvil> Camera is not only for camera though. Camera could be input device - virtual keyboard, for example, gesture interface, ...
Jan 23 22:25:13 <LittleIdiot> but still, consumes power and can't bring beer ;)
Jan 23 22:25:25 * rwhitby wonders why everyone talks about the hardware (which they can't change) instead of the software (which *anyone* can change) ....
Jan 23 22:25:47 <LittleIdiot> i'm quite suspicious that the batteries in it will last long
Jan 23 22:25:48 <SpeedEvil> Hardware constrains software.
Jan 23 22:26:10 <rwhitby> SpeedEvil: right - put it on the wishlist for v2, and then focus on what can be done with v1 hardware.
Jan 23 22:26:19 <SpeedEvil> Some interesting software possibilities - for example multiple SIMs are impossible.
Jan 23 22:26:31 <hrw> aloril: counter
Jan 23 22:26:32 <aloril> 2 weeks, 3 days for source availability and devices for selected developers;  1 month, 2 weeks, 1 day for any developers;  7 months, 2 weeks, 5 days for mass market
Jan 23 22:26:42 <rwhitby> c'est la vie - the v1 hardware is *not* going to change now.
Jan 23 22:26:44 <hrw> less then 3 weeks to source....
Jan 23 22:26:58 <SpeedEvil> Unless it has a major show-stopper hardware bug.
Jan 23 22:26:59 <hrw> and, who knows, maybe even device...
Jan 23 22:27:04 <rwhitby> hrw: just enough time to climb the OE learning curve ;-)
Jan 23 22:27:30 <hrw> SpeedEvil: 2/11 is time when HARDWARE will get shipped to developers. NO ONE will change hardware now
Jan 23 22:27:50 <SpeedEvil> If the hardware turns out to not actually work, it will have to be changed in some degree.
Jan 23 22:28:17 <SpeedEvil> Though I don't know how exact the prototypes they have now are.
Jan 23 22:28:19 <hrw> SpeedEvil: current version is iirc 3rd version of v1
Jan 23 22:28:25 <rwhitby> SpeedEvil: the hardware works now - they have pre-production prototypes working.
Jan 23 22:28:28 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jan 23 22:28:51 <hrw> first versions had problem with touchscreen iirc ;D
Jan 23 22:29:05 <rwhitby> yeah, that was the delay apparently.
Jan 23 22:31:01 <Psi_> do we know if the neo limitation preventing the use of >2GB microsd cards is hardware or software?
Jan 23 22:31:05 <SpeedEvil> Is the phone retail price going to be approximately the $350?
Jan 23 22:31:25 <spikebik1> yes
Jan 23 22:31:27 <hrw> Psi_: send me such card and I will tell you this
Jan 23 22:31:38 <Psi_> heh
Jan 23 22:31:59 <SpeedEvil> The end-user retail price, not the dev 'early' price.
Jan 23 22:32:09 <SpeedEvil> Or is that not fixed.
Jan 23 22:32:15 <hrw> Psi_: but in practice I suspect that software
Jan 23 22:32:57 <Psi_> SpeedEvil,  i thought it was, select developers get it free and everyone else pays $350 direct from the website
Jan 23 22:33:43 <spikebik1> yup
Jan 23 22:33:46 <Psi_> hrw, so you reckon, with some software hacking, it is possible 8GB cards will work?
Jan 23 22:33:57 <spikebik1> a kernel upgrade added rs-mmc 2GB support to the nokia 7770
Jan 23 22:34:05 <spikebik1> 770
Jan 23 22:34:11 <Psi_> and that uses the same chipset?
Jan 23 22:34:19 <hrw> Psi_: other chipset
Jan 23 22:34:30 <hrw> Psi_: 8GB cards are SDHC ones?
Jan 23 22:34:49 <Psi_> as i understood it, anything larger than 2GB was SDHC?
Jan 23 22:34:49 <SpeedEvil> Psi_ - anyone can pay $350 - for the first release of 'for sale' phones. I don't think it's been explicitly stated that the price for the 'bulk' sales of phones will be the same.
Jan 23 22:35:14 <hrw> Psi_: iirc yes
Jan 23 22:35:41 <hrw> Psi_: sdhc support is going to be merged sooner or later into kernel. so who knows... maybe neo will get it too during develmonths
Jan 23 22:36:09 <Psi_> ah, cool, so its a software thing, doesnt need any more hardware pin connections to the card etc
Jan 23 22:37:14 <hrw> iirc all mmc/sd cards are able to work in mmc mode
Jan 23 22:37:29 <Psi_> sounds good
Jan 23 22:37:34 <SpeedEvil> But mmc mode is very slow.
Jan 23 22:37:43 <SpeedEvil> the minimal 'compatible' mode
Jan 23 22:38:04 <Psi_> being able to read 8GB is much better than not being able too :) even if its slow
Jan 23 22:39:16 <LittleIdiot> is there a special controller in between for the sd cards, or can i do bit-banging with the pins on the reader slot directly in software? ;)
Jan 23 22:39:50 <Psi_> good question
Jan 23 22:40:23 <LittleIdiot> ...and: is the card inserted into a slot or do i have to open the case somewhere before inserting it?
Jan 23 22:40:40 <LittleIdiot> if its a slot i could just plug in extra devices there
Jan 23 22:40:41 <Psi_> the card slot is under the battery i believe
Jan 23 22:40:45 <LittleIdiot> daim.
Jan 23 22:41:55 <LittleIdiot> well, i'll find a way as soon as i have one ;)
Jan 23 22:42:10 <MetaMorfoziS> openmoko is a very hacky device:)
Jan 23 22:42:22 <hrw> card is in dual slot: sim+microsd
Jan 23 22:42:23 <MetaMorfoziS> for wifi you have a ahcked cable (that have power)
Jan 23 22:42:31 <rwhitby> openmoko is not a device. neo 1973 is a device.
Jan 23 22:42:35 <MetaMorfoziS> for slot^ you need some other devices:)
Jan 23 22:42:36 <LittleIdiot> hey, i could even log and blog my caffeine addiction with it ;)
Jan 23 22:42:48 <MetaMorfoziS> rwhitby > ok, then neo1973
Jan 23 22:42:53 <SpeedEvil> You can in principle wire together MMC cards, and have them work.
Jan 23 22:42:53 <MetaMorfoziS> 1973 is a date?
Jan 23 22:42:57 <MetaMorfoziS> what happens in 1973?
Jan 23 22:43:01 <rwhitby> first mobile phone call
Jan 23 22:43:03 <SpeedEvil> You cannot do this with SD cards IIRC
Jan 23 22:43:11 <MetaMorfoziS> 73?
Jan 23 22:43:11 <MetaMorfoziS> lol.
Jan 23 22:43:15 <SpeedEvil> In SD mode rather.
Jan 23 22:43:22 <LittleIdiot> (by adding a 433 mhz receiver that receives the signals for the coffee-machine)
Jan 23 22:43:27 <SpeedEvil> And SDIO cards can't do this at all.
Jan 23 22:43:29 <MetaMorfoziS> :DDD
Jan 23 22:43:38 <emulsion> any thought to a good provider in the US?  Will providers go for it?  Or does that even matter
Jan 23 22:43:48 <SpeedEvil> Not matter.
Jan 23 22:43:52 <SpeedEvil> Buy a SIM.
Jan 23 22:43:55 <SpeedEvil> Plug it in.
Jan 23 22:44:00 <SpeedEvil> Works.
Jan 23 22:44:00 <emulsion> cool, thought so
Jan 23 22:44:28 <SpeedEvil> The slight downside is that it might be nice to get providers that would supply it on contract, for a discount - locked to one provider.
Jan 23 22:45:31 <LittleIdiot> will that still be possible? i thought not
Jan 23 22:45:41 <SpeedEvil> In principle, maybe.
Jan 23 22:45:48 <thedaniel> SpeedEvil: that seems to completely fly in the face of having an 'open' phone
Jan 23 22:45:49 <SpeedEvil> The GSM part of the phone is not open source.
Jan 23 22:45:58 <LittleIdiot> oh, ok
Jan 23 22:46:01 <hrw> LittleIdiot: read announcement and check 09/11 date
Jan 23 22:46:24 <LittleIdiot> have read it, but must have (intentionally) ignored that one ;)
Jan 23 22:46:27 <SpeedEvil> Not really - a phone locked to one provider, that you can run your own software on would be nice.
Jan 23 22:46:40 <SpeedEvil> if it was sufficiently cheaper.
Jan 23 22:47:15 <hrw> 2007-09-11 Phase 2: Mass Market Sale Online sales will continue. We will also be available in a retail stores and selected carriers around the world.
Jan 23 22:47:30 <Psi_> i dont think the GSM part should be open anyway, it would make it easy to abuse the phone and providers would try to block it on their network
Jan 23 22:47:44 <LittleIdiot> hrw: that does not imply that provider locking works
Jan 23 22:48:25 <hrw> LittleIdiot: show me provider which will sell you cheaper phone without simlock
Jan 23 22:49:22 <LittleIdiot> that wasn't in question. i just said that i thought it wouldn't be possible to lock it for providers.
Jan 23 22:50:18 <LittleIdiot> i thought they may change the firmware, add stuff they need, but not lock it and prevent the users from flashing it
Jan 23 22:51:01 <SpeedEvil> Users can't flash the GSM part. That's the part that providers would typically lock to their service.
Jan 23 22:51:18 <LittleIdiot> yep
Jan 23 22:51:31 <SpeedEvil> So you can't use it on other peoples networks, and not pay them money for making calls over the contract period.
Jan 23 22:51:52 <thedaniel> SpeedEvil: i don't know if the gsm module is that smart
Jan 23 22:51:53 <LittleIdiot> so again, is that possible with the used gsm module?
Jan 23 22:51:57 <Psi_> if users cant flash the GSM part, but it is lockable, wouldn't that mean that it IS flashable, users are just not supposed to know how :P ?
Jan 23 22:52:46 <SpeedEvil> I don't know - most providers won't be that interested in supplying phones that can't be locked to their networks.
Jan 23 22:53:06 <Psi_> can someone point out why phone locking is so important to a provider
Jan 23 22:53:39 <SpeedEvil> Phone sells for $350
Jan 23 22:53:44 <nonick01> also will this phone be distributed here in argentina by some provider?
Jan 23 22:53:48 <Psi_> the provider wants the user to make calls, if the user uses there simcard in another phone, what difference does it make
Jan 23 22:54:16 <SpeedEvil> Provider sells phone for $250, makes you sign a contract for 12 months that obligates you to pay them >100.
Jan 23 22:54:39 <SpeedEvil> Or that they hope - including average calls - that you will pay them >100
Jan 23 22:55:09 <MetaMorfoziS> and then, you have a locked phone:D
Jan 23 22:55:12 <SpeedEvil> Depending on how it all works out, and your call volume, you can end up saving a fair amount od money.
Jan 23 22:55:13 <LittleIdiot> well, Psi_ has a point. if you have the contract already and can't get out of it, you'll have to pay the hardware anyway
Jan 23 22:55:20 <Odin-LAP> Psi_: You can't lock the card to a specific phone, actually.
Jan 23 22:55:29 <Psi_> LittleIdiot, yes, thats my point :)
Jan 23 22:55:35 <Odin-LAP> You can only lock the phone to a specific card.
Jan 23 22:56:46 <LittleIdiot> but i just dont know if the providers think the same way. most of the phones they sell for a quite low price come with locking
Jan 23 22:57:05 <LittleIdiot> i dont know why, but they still do. stupid them. ;)
Jan 23 22:57:08 <SpeedEvil> That's the idea - they make the profit back off the users.
Jan 23 22:57:22 <Psi_> LittleIdiot, its probably something they do, but dont really know why
Jan 23 22:57:23 <Psi_>  :P
Jan 23 22:57:23 <Odin-LAP> It's not really likely that you'll see openmoko phones in those offers...
Jan 23 22:57:50 <thedaniel> i think it may have to do with using features to attract more signups
Jan 23 22:58:09 <SpeedEvil> That's the nasty part of it. Locking abilities of phones down.
Jan 23 22:58:23 <thedaniel> for example, the sidekick's netowrk connect strings are in firmware, effectively locking data services to tmobile
Jan 23 22:58:23 <LittleIdiot> we have to make it play the ringtones all these stupid kids buy and i bet it will show up in their shops ;)
Jan 23 22:58:32 <SpeedEvil> Like, not being able to copy mp3s onto the phone, or pictures you've taken off easily via usb.
Jan 23 22:58:41 <thedaniel> so the sidekick is attractive to ceartain people but even if they buy one on ebay they must sign up for tmobile to use it
Jan 23 22:58:49 <thedaniel> s/ceartain/certain/
Jan 23 22:58:50 <apt> thedaniel meant: so the sidekick is attractive to certain people but even if they buy one on ebay they must sign up for tmobile to use it
Jan 23 22:59:22 <nonick01> here in argentina providers offers two contract methods, one where you need to pay $35 per month (U$S 11.6 approx.) and another where you don't need to pay anything but the phone and the calls / sms / mms / gprs / edge uses are more expensivest
Jan 23 23:00:03 <nonick01> that's just the main trouble
Jan 23 23:00:56 <sam0> hello, is there a chance that wifi is added to openmoko ? do _every_ wifi vendors lock their drivers ? (yes, I've read Moss-Pultz explaination)
Jan 23 23:02:05 <LittleIdiot> not in this version. but maybe - there have been zillions of discussions on the list about it
Jan 23 23:03:25 <sam0> ok thank. sorry for asking one more
Jan 23 23:03:49 <LittleIdiot> the community wants it and they (hopefully) know it ;)
Jan 23 23:04:33 <hrw> sam0: choices are: dig for OLD chipsets which are not ROHS compliant and forget that you will be able to sell it 
Jan 23 23:05:32 <hrw> sam0: or get one of USB wifi chipsets, add extra 3.3V->5V regulator which will add battery usage and then wifi stick will convert 5V back to 3.3V (another power leak)
Jan 23 23:05:50 <SpeedEvil> Or external wifi stick with battery.
Jan 23 23:06:00 <hrw> sam0: or get one of chipsets which can work on CF/USB/SPI but lack open driver
Jan 23 23:07:01 <sam0> ok
Jan 23 23:07:50 <sergio_> hello.I'm a researcher in embedded systems.Is it possible to get an openMoko development system?
Jan 23 23:08:27 <cbpage> yeah i don't think you can get a good prism2 anymore :(
Jan 23 23:08:27 <Zer0HiT> sergio_: best to read the press release that's linked to in the topic
Jan 23 23:08:28 <cbpage> the later prisms are crippled.
Jan 23 23:08:32 <rwhitby> sergio_: see the first paragraph on openmoko.com
Jan 23 23:14:22 <sergio_> ok, thanks.I will take a better look at the website.My main interest is on the possibility of hardware customization
Jan 23 23:14:38 <hrw> sergio_: in which way?
Jan 23 23:15:00 <SpeedEvil> At the moment - it's basically 'you can't.
Jan 23 23:15:14 <SpeedEvil> Other than adding external stuff to the USB port.
Jan 23 23:16:56 <dw_swe> Is it possible to multiplex sd-cards? And sdio-cards? Using som GPIO
Jan 23 23:16:58 <sergio_> speedevil: are there plans to give licenses for reference design?
Jan 23 23:17:08 <SpeedEvil> sergio_: no clue.
Jan 23 23:17:19 <hrw> sergio_: contact coreteam
Jan 23 23:17:21 <SpeedEvil> dw_swe: with GPIO, all is possible.
Jan 23 23:17:28 <dw_swe> SpeedEvil: =)
Jan 23 23:17:36 <SpeedEvil> You can bit-bang either SD or MMC cards.
Jan 23 23:18:05 <SpeedEvil> And you can stack MMC cards - or SD cards in MMC mode without any GPIO, just connect them together electrically up to the limit of the power supply.
Jan 23 23:18:09 <sergio_> Ok.thanks guys
Jan 23 23:18:26 <SpeedEvil> Performance goes up dramatically if you have seperate ouput data lines.
Jan 23 23:18:39 <SpeedEvil> SDIO cards basically need seperate controllers per card AIUI.
Jan 23 23:19:01 <hrw> mmc use 1 line. sd can use 1/4/8 lines
Jan 23 23:19:03 <dw_swe> Humm.  ok, but chip select? or have they got adresses?
Jan 23 23:19:17 <SpeedEvil> If you are really interested, you can pay several thousand dollars to the SD card association for the standard. Downloding it off edonkey is bad.
Jan 23 23:19:44 <dw_swe> ok, i will remember that! 
Jan 23 23:19:54 <SpeedEvil> In the base MMC mode, you can discover the 'name' of the cards even when they are connected electrically together.
Jan 23 23:20:10 <SpeedEvil> You can't do this with SDIO, as they reuse one of the pins IIRC
Jan 23 23:20:21 <dw_swe> cool, but then not so fast?
Jan 23 23:20:45 <LittleIdiot> hmm, i've asked this on the list, but nobody answered yet: are there unsused i/o ports on the board?
Jan 23 23:20:46 <SpeedEvil> Yes, the more you add to the bus, the more it slows down.
Jan 23 23:20:51 * hrw goes sleep - cu
Jan 23 23:21:24 <SpeedEvil> If it's a typical phone - there is probably sharply limited space for anything.
Jan 23 23:21:46 <LittleIdiot> wiring them to the outside would be ok for me
Jan 23 23:22:08 <SpeedEvil> In that case, it may be as easy to use a USB-parallel port chip.
Jan 23 23:22:16 * dw_swe agree, and no need for extra batterypack.. just some small holes
Jan 23 23:22:28 <SpeedEvil> There is that.
Jan 23 23:23:02 <dw_swe> just glue a sdio card to the back 
Jan 23 23:23:11 <LittleIdiot> uuh... should do, but thats another power consumer... not much but it does
Jan 23 23:23:32 <LittleIdiot> and i'd have to supply it with power, still
Jan 23 23:23:35 <dw_swe> and some way to shut it off via gpio
Jan 23 23:24:25 <SpeedEvil> I was wondering if the USB socket, in 'peripheral' mode was detectable easily.
Jan 23 23:25:00 <SpeedEvil> As you have the it in host mode when you want to talk over the wifi connection, and put it into host mode when you don't, and the peripheral turns off.
Jan 23 23:25:48 <SpeedEvil> I suppose I should read the USB standard again.
Jan 23 23:25:59 <dw_swe> um, shut off host mode u mean?
Jan 23 23:26:39 <dw_swe> hum, dont think you need to read the whole? =)
Jan 23 23:26:55 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jan 23 23:27:02 <SpeedEvil> The bits of.
Jan 23 23:27:37 <SpeedEvil> I was wondering if the data-line voltages are in a defined state in peripheral vs host mode. (static state, obviously they'll bounce around)
Jan 23 23:28:03 <LittleIdiot> tristate i suppose, so undefined/not connected
Jan 23 23:28:05 <dw_swe> some pulldown
Jan 23 23:28:17 <dw_swe> if there are problems
Jan 23 23:28:34 <SpeedEvil> This is just for connecting stuff with internal battery to the USB port.
Jan 23 23:28:52 <SpeedEvil> So it goes to sleep cleanly when not wanted. And charges from USB of course.
Jan 23 23:30:39 <dw_swe> you mean to connect external wifi(forexample) to phone battery and then connect to unpowered usb on phone with detection of host or not?
Jan 23 23:30:40 <LittleIdiot> hmm. you'll get interference when consuming power and making i/o over usb at the same time. but lets say the wlan device has a diode with a big enough capacitor behind it and the both devices have agreed on data and power-slots (fixed rate)
Jan 23 23:30:54 <SpeedEvil> Err - no.
Jan 23 23:30:56 <dw_swe> and unplug when connecting to computer for example
Jan 23 23:31:22 <SpeedEvil> The USB device has an internal battery, and wakes up when something that presents the appropriate for a host voltages on the data pins arrives.
Jan 23 23:31:34 <dw_swe> aha
Jan 23 23:31:41 <LittleIdiot> oh, ok. i thought you wanted power-over-data-lines ;)
Jan 23 23:31:53 <SpeedEvil> No, that would be insane :)
Jan 23 23:32:12 <SpeedEvil> At least when the alternative is to add an additional power converter.
Jan 23 23:32:36 <LittleIdiot> just geeky enough for me ;)
Jan 23 23:33:04 <SpeedEvil> I'm just trying to work out the simplest way to turn off a USB device on a non-powered port when the program doesn't want the peripheral active.
Jan 23 23:33:07 <dw_swe> but what about connect to internal power thrue shell and then usb?
Jan 23 23:33:16 <dw_swe> no external batterys
Jan 23 23:33:19 <SpeedEvil> There is no power on the external port.
Jan 23 23:33:22 <dw_swe> less bulky
Jan 23 23:33:27 <dw_swe> no
Jan 23 23:33:49 <dw_swe> drill holes in the phone  :-D
Jan 23 23:34:05 <dw_swe> find 3.3V and use that
Jan 23 23:34:06 * SpeedEvil prefers not to drill holes in expensive hardware till it's out of guarantee.
Jan 23 23:34:54 <SpeedEvil> Also - the 3.3V converter possibly can't handle another half - 1W.
Jan 23 23:35:02 <LittleIdiot> SpeedEvil: http://homepages.internet.lu/absolute3/tronic/opcirc5.htm one of those would do
Jan 23 23:35:03 <SpeedEvil> Especially when transmitting.
Jan 23 23:35:10 <dw_swe> mmm  yea, but if you got no choise?  Like dont want big battery
Jan 23 23:35:26 <LittleIdiot> basically they detect changing flanks
Jan 23 23:35:38 <SpeedEvil> I'm talking of something like 1AAA li-ion cell.
Jan 23 23:36:21 <SpeedEvil> It'd probably be easier with a PIC and a RC filter before the ADC.
Jan 23 23:36:28 <SpeedEvil> $1 or so per.
Jan 23 23:36:35 <SpeedEvil> And physically tiny.
Jan 23 23:36:58 <LittleIdiot> but the adc may be too slow
Jan 23 23:37:08 <SpeedEvil> That's why you put a filter before it.
Jan 23 23:37:38 <SpeedEvil> You are not looking at decoding the data, just what the average voltage over the last second is.
Jan 23 23:37:45 <SpeedEvil> Well - 100ms.
Jan 23 23:39:30 <dw_swe> Maby use som thin li-ion or li-polymer battery from mobile phone, there are som really thin.
Jan 23 23:39:47 <SpeedEvil> AAA Li-ion cell is probably a good match.
Jan 23 23:40:15 <dw_swe> umm.. AAA as in cylindrical standard battery?
Jan 23 23:40:18 <SpeedEvil> Light, moderately easily replacable, reasonable capacity, fairly available.
Jan 23 23:40:20 <cbpage> yup
Jan 23 23:40:20 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Jan 23 23:40:31 <SpeedEvil> 10mm dia *44mm
Jan 23 23:41:40 <dw_swe> yes and then the phone is 28mm istead of 18, humm  maby mount on the long edge?
Jan 23 23:42:09 <SpeedEvil> I don't know where the USB port is. I thought it was on the end.
Jan 23 23:42:11 <dw_swe> hard to make that stable.
Jan 23 23:42:56 <dw_swe> do we know what type of usb-connector it will be?
Jan 23 23:43:06 <SpeedEvil> Mini ab
Jan 23 23:43:13 <dw_swe> ok
Jan 23 23:43:37 <dw_swe> Humm /me needs to think this over, and sleep some, bye
Jan 24 00:06:10 <LittleIdiot> does anybody know how much these evaluation boards from meritech cost?
Jan 24 00:24:35 <emulsion> k
Jan 24 00:30:56 <bprice20> the man is back.
Jan 24 00:31:49 <bprice20> I wonder why it is always empty here yet the mailing list is plum full of stupid questions that have been answered 1000 times
Jan 24 00:35:55 * SpeedEvil counts 186 other people.
Jan 24 00:48:29 <Robot101> 186, exactly the number of people in #maemo atm. spooky. :)
Jan 24 00:52:56 <rwhitby> bprice20: it's not empty at other times of the day.  you must be in a non-US, non-EU timezone (like me), or be joining at weird times for your timezone if it's US or EU
Jan 24 00:53:18 <bprice20> I am on the eastern US
Jan 24 00:53:58 <bprice20> but I guess I can come back during the day
Jan 24 00:54:16 <rwhitby> bprice20: you can see logs at http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko.txt
Jan 24 00:54:26 <bprice20> yummy thx
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 24 02:59:58 2007