**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Jan 26 02:59:59 2007
Jan 26 03:29:39 <aloril> nick count records: 106 2006-12-04; 108 2006-12-07; 109 2006-12-12; 114 2006-12-13; 116 2006-12-20; 134 2007-01-11; 141 2007-01-12; 143 2007-01-13; 157 2007-01-15; 163 2007-01-16 ; 182 2007-01-17; 185 2007-01-19 ; 197 2007-01-20 ; 201 2007-01-21; 205 2007-01-22; 206 2007-01-23; 211 2007-01-25
Jan 26 05:12:17 <wiml> So, I guess a few developers have (or are getting?) early pieces of the hardware? How many of those "preview" neo1973s are out there?
Jan 26 05:16:00 <aloril> umm.. only few I guess now, but 50-55 in February
Jan 26 05:16:02 <aloril> counter
Jan 26 05:16:02 <aloril> 2 weeks, 1 day 18:13:01 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11)
Jan 26 05:17:13 <wiml> ohhhh, I thought Feb was the mass-market avail date  :(
Jan 26 05:21:22 <aloril> yeah, its month later for anybody to buy development version
Jan 26 05:21:50 <aloril> for some details, see topic announce link
Jan 26 05:27:05 <wiml> well, I guess I'll have to wait until march then
Jan 26 05:27:25 <wiml> it's just as well I guess. I don't have time to start hacking on a new platform right now
Jan 26 05:31:16 <aloril> hmm... DOS of mobile phones, has bad ring to it ;-) but it could make hardware compatible commodity like DOS did
Jan 26 05:34:44 <aloril> marketing: use your mp3's as ringtone, use your images as background, you can install as many free apps as you want
Jan 26 05:37:46 <wiml> well ... I can already do that on my cell phone (as long as th free apps are written in java)
Jan 26 05:39:58 <wiml> the java apps are stuck in their little java sandbox though which really limits how customizable my phone can be. 
Jan 26 05:40:52 <aloril> true, you can get that for most phones already, but still many pay ;-)
Jan 26 05:41:21 <wiml> the promise of openmoko to me is being able to adapt the whole device's experience, despite what some marketer at motorola thought should go on the main screen
Jan 26 05:46:17 <aloril> wiml: that is true for me too not anything in that marketing line ;-) (well.. libre applications of course)
Jan 26 05:46:52 <aloril> wiml: basically, I consider this mobile computer myself and mobile phone secondly
Jan 26 05:49:41 <wiml> yes, I am kind of hoping the neo1973 might finally have reached a point where a pda+phone can be a good handheld computer and a good phone
Jan 26 05:50:10 <wiml> most of the problems with existing pda+phones seem to be in their software, not the hardware, which is capable enough these days
Jan 26 05:53:15 <aloril> compared to what Linux ran initially, this has plenty of power (though of course compared to current hardware its slow)
Jan 26 05:53:36 <aloril> and this has unpowered USB host too, so lots of possibilities there too
Jan 26 05:56:26 <aloril> (386 20Mhz 4MiB RAM vs ARM9 266Mhz 128MiB RAM)
Jan 26 06:28:19 <aloril> from mailing list "I recently  discovered  OpenMoko while researching the Apple iphone."
Jan 26 06:28:23 <aloril> good marketing ;-)
Jan 26 06:29:40 <anselm> i'd seen it earlier; forgotten about it; was annoyed by iphone; and came across it in an article again.
Jan 26 08:19:15 <TomWork> lo
Jan 26 08:20:23 * rwhitby laments the new level of abuse on the mailing list
Jan 26 08:26:54 * CM left it after "the announcement"
Jan 26 08:28:55 * aloril thinks its just few people doing it
Jan 26 08:29:34 <aloril> maybe they were brought from /.
Jan 26 08:31:31 <aloril> also maybe people might be more polite if they kept in mind that Google indexes mailing list (and I think this channel too)
Jan 26 08:33:12 * aloril thinks most people brought from /. were nice, knowledgeable, etc.. but probably not everybody
Jan 26 08:35:26 <XorA> morning
Jan 26 08:38:24 <aloril> XorA: morning, anything new?
Jan 26 08:38:59 <XorA> aloril: not yet
Jan 26 08:42:31 <XorA> counter
Jan 26 08:42:31 <aloril> 2 weeks, 1 day 14:46:30 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 26 08:44:18 * aloril noticed that previous blurb "for source availability and devices for selected developers" was interpreted as source being available only for selected developers
Jan 26 09:33:12 <Morgret> counter
Jan 26 09:33:13 <aloril> 2 weeks, 1 day 13:55:49 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 26 09:33:37 <Morgret> I could swear the counter's clock is running slow
Jan 26 09:37:34 <aloril> hehe
Jan 26 09:37:45 <ynezz> underclocked
Jan 26 09:38:26 <Morgret> Let's de-underclock it ;-)
Jan 26 09:39:53 <XorA> overclock mickey|zzZZzz so he can deliver early :-)
Jan 26 09:42:17 <Morgret> Yep.  Overclock him and keep his running temperature cool with plenty of iced mountain dew and a bevy of  nymphets waving fans.
Jan 26 09:42:33 <LittleIdiot> i could send schokakola ;)
Jan 26 09:42:45 <LittleIdiot> (choclate with high caffeine dosis)
Jan 26 09:43:04 <Morgret> Hehe, like a double mocha
Jan 26 09:49:56 <rwhitby> Morgret: deunderclock - nice in joke :-)
Jan 26 10:06:48 <Morgret> rwhitby: "de-underclock" is a standard term in the OpenSlug world.  The NSLU2 ran at 133MHz from the factory using an undocumented setting, despite the chip being spec'd at 266MHz, so it was underclocked by Linksys.  Slug owners normally de-underclock theirs. :P
Jan 26 10:08:46 <Morgret> Mine is still underclocked:
Jan 26 10:08:46 <Morgret> Processor       : XScale-IXP42x Family rev 1 (v5b)
Jan 26 10:08:46 <Morgret> BogoMIPS        : 132.71
Jan 26 10:09:49 <CM> Morgret: Do you know who rwhitby is? ;)
Jan 26 10:10:24 <Morgret> CM: nope.  But on the Internet, everyone is a dog, obviously :-)
Jan 26 10:10:33 <CM> Morgret: http://www.rwhitby.net/projects/nslu2-linux/
Jan 26 10:10:49 <Morgret> Oh, hehe.  Nice to meet you :P
Jan 26 10:11:25 <CM> I have to admit I didn't understand the "in joke" bit, so thank you for explaining for me at least :)
Jan 26 10:11:51 <Morgret> :-)
Jan 26 10:13:50 <Morgret> CM: Newer slugs come from the factory running at 266MHz, btw.
Jan 26 10:14:27 <CM> I'd like to buy one and try MokoSlug on it. Not sure where I can get one in sweden though..
Jan 26 10:15:01 <Morgret> Mail order ;-)
Jan 26 10:15:50 <Morgret> http://www.komplett.se/k/search.asp?q=NSLU2
Jan 26 10:16:34 <CM> *lol* Their office is in the same house as my companys office..
Jan 26 10:16:54 <CM> I'll go 2 floors down an get it ;)
Jan 26 10:17:02 <Morgret> Hahaha, funny
Jan 26 10:17:16 <CM> Hmm.. I looked at several swedish, but didn't find it.. Weird
Jan 26 10:23:33 <Morgret> You don't need a slug with Bluetooth to network the Neo though.  Any old Bluetooth access point ought to work.  I assume that that includes the cheap D-Link.
Jan 26 10:29:11 <Psi_> Morgret, i'd get a BT V2 EDR access point tho :) ya want as much range/speed as you can get :)
Jan 26 10:32:15 <Morgret> Oh, the D-Link isn't EDR?  Well spotted, I hadn't looked
Jan 26 10:32:38 <Psi_> i hadn't looked either
Jan 26 10:32:50 * mjr will settle for his v1 dongle
Jan 26 10:33:06 <mjr> not like bt v1 speeds won't be enough for most things you're able to do with the neo :)
Jan 26 10:33:47 <Psi_> with a proper BT V2 EDR access point i think you could use it like wifi around the home
Jan 26 10:33:59 <mjr> well, true, there's the coverage thing
Jan 26 10:34:12 <mjr> I think I'll be mostly happy if it reaches the couch though ;)
Jan 26 10:34:15 <Morgret> True enough.  The gap between mobile CPU speeds and desktop speeds seems to be widening rapidly.  Some people will be disappointed.
Jan 26 10:34:37 <valfrom> hi all
Jan 26 10:34:42 <valfrom> anybody know what form factor this phone?
Jan 26 10:34:58 <mjr> http://www.openmoko.com/press/index.html
Jan 26 10:35:43 <valfrom> thanks! sorry :(
Jan 26 10:36:26 <SpeedEvil> The insane amount of power drawn by desktop CPUs is a large portion of it.
Jan 26 10:36:53 <SpeedEvil> What's the max power of the one in the neo? 0.5W?
Jan 26 10:37:27 <Psi_> lol, wifi is only 0.1W
Jan 26 10:37:36 <Psi_> i very much doubt the BT is 0.5W
Jan 26 10:37:36 <SpeedEvil> Take a 3Ghz CPU, and divide by 120th of the power, and you get 25Mhz.
Jan 26 10:37:46 <SpeedEvil> CPU, not wifi.
Jan 26 10:37:50 <Psi_> oh, sorry
Jan 26 10:39:12 <SpeedEvil> (which admittedly will be closer to 75Mhz or so counting all the execution units prolly.
Jan 26 10:40:50 <Morgret> The Samsung S3C2410 datasheet says 177mW idle to 335mW "typical normal" at 226MHz.  But there's a lot more in the phone than just the CPU.
Jan 26 10:41:10 <SpeedEvil> True - that was just the CPU power above though.
Jan 26 10:41:30 <SpeedEvil> It's sort-of-comparable mips/watt with desktop.
Jan 26 10:41:33 <Morgret> s/226/266/
Jan 26 10:41:33 <apt> Morgret meant: The Samsung S3C2410 datasheet says 177mW idle to 335mW "typical normal" at 266MHz.  But there's a lot more in the phone than just the CPU.
Jan 26 10:41:47 * SpeedEvil contemplates a battery that could supply 60W to a processor.
Jan 26 10:41:49 <Morgret> LOL, I beat you to the correction
Jan 26 10:42:36 <SpeedEvil> On the up-side, you could use the phone exhaust for de-icing locks.
Jan 26 10:42:44 <Morgret> lol
Jan 26 10:43:07 <mjr> :D
Jan 26 10:43:53 <Morgret> Given that the current interglacial period is about to end and dropping back down into 80,000 years of glaciation means -13 degs C fall ... that will make hot gadgets useful. :P
Jan 26 10:46:18 <Morgret> Doubling CO2 only gives us a 2-3 degs C rise at most.  Everyone please spew out at least x8 as much CO2 ... I don't like the cold!!! ;-)
Jan 26 10:47:00 * mjr breathes heavily
Jan 26 10:47:04 <mjr> ooo... dizzy
Jan 26 10:48:05 <SpeedEvil> Any figures for current use of the phone idle, with the screen active? I'd like to read ebooks on it.
Jan 26 10:48:07 <Morgret> Ooooh ... maybe future phone should run on fossil fuels, so that they are environmentally friendly by keeping the planet liveably warm ;-)
Jan 26 10:48:12 <XorA> I live in scotland, warm gadgets always welcome
Jan 26 10:48:18 <Morgret> Hehe
Jan 26 10:48:23 * SpeedEvil is also in Scotland, Fife.
Jan 26 10:48:30 <SpeedEvil> Near Glenrothes.
Jan 26 10:48:59 <Morgret> Single malt area
Jan 26 10:49:02 <XorA> Work in Edin, live in West Lothian
Jan 26 10:49:15 <XorA> SpeedEvil: do you go to edlug?
Jan 26 10:49:20 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jan 26 10:49:41 * SpeedEvil goes to reassemble his router power supply with tape, so it's not actually lethal after the repair.
Jan 26 10:49:43 <SpeedEvil> WAve.
Jan 26 10:52:33 <greentux> hi guys
Jan 26 10:52:58 <Morgret> lo
Jan 26 11:00:05 <rwhitby> Morgret: nice to meet you too
Jan 26 11:00:59 <rwhitby> Psi_: I use a Linksys USBBT100 and get a good 10 meters radius coverage of the house.
Jan 26 11:01:31 <Psi_> 10meters outside of the house?
Jan 26 11:01:37 <rwhitby> inside the house
Jan 26 11:02:05 <Psi_> hm.. i suppose in the center of the house 10M would probably be enough
Jan 26 11:02:08 <rwhitby> (i.e. I put in centrally in the house, and it reaches the back door and the front door)
Jan 26 11:02:17 <Psi_> yeah
Jan 26 11:02:34 <rwhitby> this is with a Treo650 as the handset
Jan 26 11:02:47 <Psi_> is it V2 EDR/
Jan 26 11:02:48 <Psi_> ?
Jan 26 11:02:58 <XorA> rwhitby: does bluetooth in that mode make a good wifi replacement?
Jan 26 11:03:25 <XorA> rwhitby: I am interested to experiment as my wifi screws up my digital video broadcasters
Jan 26 11:03:45 <rwhitby> XorA: it works for me.  I have the same setup at work, but with a cheaper usb dongle and it doesn't reach as far.
Jan 26 11:04:14 <rwhitby> I sync mail, download IRC logs, sometimes IRC, sometimes ssh.
Jan 26 11:04:34 <rwhitby> Psi_: Treo is only BT V1
Jan 26 11:05:45 <rwhitby> XorA: so I don't really do anything that requires significant throughput.  It's all for offline processing (i.e. reading and respoding to mails on the bus).  GPRS here is 2c/Kb (yes Kb, not Mb).
Jan 26 11:05:59 <mjr> rwhitby, that's insane
Jan 26 11:06:33 <XorA> rwhitby: I am lucky to have flat rate gprs
Jan 26 11:06:59 <rwhitby> no such thing in Australia as far as I know (or at least in my price range)
Jan 26 11:07:54 <rwhitby> So I will be the one on the community development team making sure that everything can be done in offline mode and then synced automatically to multiple bluetooth adapters :-)
Jan 26 11:14:58 <Morgret> Do you mean channel bonding a few for more throughput?  Only 7 participants in a Bluetooth piconet, so that limits the bonding to triple if two participants.
Jan 26 11:16:09 <rwhitby> no, I mean seamless roaming across multiple spatially-separated bluetooth access points.
Jan 26 11:16:20 <Morgret> Aha.  God, that's useful
Jan 26 11:16:28 <Morgret> s/God/Good/ :P
Jan 26 11:17:15 <rwhitby> Of course, I have no proof that such a thing can be done yet.  But what I can do manually on the Treo (by selecting different connection profiles) must be able to be done automatically on the Neo.
Jan 26 11:18:34 <Morgret> It should be possible, since unlikely to need more than 7 simultaneously visible nodes.
Jan 26 11:19:15 <Morgret> Hehe, cellular mobile over Bt piconets.  Not heard that suggested before.
Jan 26 11:23:58 <hrw|work> rwhitby: you will be able to change profiles based on geo location
Jan 26 11:24:52 <rwhitby> hrw|work: yep - thats for the home vs work scenario.  I also need to work out how to have two bluetooth adapters inside the house to get better coverage.
Jan 26 11:25:10 <rwhitby> (i.e. out into the back yard, or into the front driveway)
Jan 26 11:25:29 <hrw|work> I will need to buy something nslu2-like to get BTAP in home
Jan 26 11:27:32 <Morgret> rwhitby: I've been playing a bit with bluez Bluetooth code interfacing with GPS and a barcode scanner.  Your MokoSlug sounds very interesting, I'll be wanting to check that out.
Jan 26 11:27:49 <mickeyl> morning
Jan 26 11:28:01 <Morgret> Hi mickeyl :P
Jan 26 11:28:13 <rwhitby> Morgret: if you can build Angstrom in OE today, I can supply a mokoslug.conf which will build it for you.
Jan 26 11:28:20 <Morgret> We've been discussing how to overclock you ;-)
Jan 26 11:28:32 <mickeyl> quick poll. openmoko-devel mailing list now or in february?
Jan 26 11:28:36 <mickeyl> vote now :)
Jan 26 11:28:37 <hrw|work> hi mickeyl 
Jan 26 11:28:39 <hrw|work> now
Jan 26 11:28:44 <hrw|work> now! now!!
Jan 26 11:28:50 <mickeyl> only vote once :)
Jan 26 11:28:53 <rwhitby> hey mickeyl.  who's Marcus Bauer and why does he hate you ;-)  NOW!
Jan 26 11:28:57 <ynezz> november
Jan 26 11:29:23 <mickeyl> rwhitby: i have no idea. was really surprised to see such a heated response. As if it was me personally taking away a phone from him *shrug*
Jan 26 11:29:24 <Morgret> OMG, it's universal.  OK, I vote for Q4 2009 then :P
Jan 26 11:30:06 <mickeyl> Morgret: I'm afraid if you overclock me I will burnout :D
Jan 26 11:30:37 <Morgret> Nah, we cool you with iced mountain dew and lots of nymphets waving fans
Jan 26 11:31:18 <TRIsoft> mickeyl: We vote for February :-)
Jan 26 11:31:23 <rwhitby> mickeyl: your advice on Wordpress actually kicked me into action on starting a blog.
Jan 26 11:31:40 <mickeyl> rwhitby: cool. did you see you already made it into planet.openmoko.org?
Jan 26 11:31:41 <ROB1963> developer mailing list please not before february
Jan 26 11:31:58 <SpeedEvil> 2006?
Jan 26 11:32:07 <rwhitby> mickeyl: "Rod", not "Rob" (on planet.om.org)
Jan 26 11:32:09 <mickeyl> so that'd be 2:2
Jan 26 11:32:26 <Morgret> rwhitby: haven't looked at Angstrom.  I'll grab it, as my slug needs an update anyway.
Jan 26 11:32:29 <mickeyl> rwhitby: oops, sorry, will forward
Jan 26 11:32:37 <friedel> anything to discuss yet on a dev list?
Jan 26 11:32:40 <rwhitby> mickeyl: thx - it's a common mistake.
Jan 26 11:33:25 <rwhitby> Morgret: it's not user-ready yet.  i.e. it doesn't have pivot-root functionality yet, so you can only fit stuff in the internal flash
Jan 26 11:33:49 <Morgret> Did you guys see the nutty news from the telecomms companies yesterday?
Jan 26 11:33:59 <Morgret> "Jan. 25, 2007 - Six of the world's largest telecom companies launch the Linux Mobile (LiMo) Foundation: Motorola, NEC, NTT DoCoMo, Panasonic, Samsung, and Vodafone.  The LiMo specification will be released under an open source license such as the GPL, but kernel and middleware will be released under the Foundation Public License.  The FPL forbids source code distribution to non-members of the Foundation under any terms.
Jan 26 11:33:59 <Morgret> "
Jan 26 11:34:13 <mickeyl> ya, well, YAMLC
Jan 26 11:34:25 <mickeyl> ibot: YAMLC is yet another Mobile Linux consortium
Jan 26 11:34:28 <mickeyl> apt: YAMLC is yet another Mobile Linux consortium
Jan 26 11:34:34 <apt> mickeyl: okay
Jan 26 11:34:40 <rwhitby> mickeyl: might want to change the sidebar url to http://www.rwhitby.net/blog/category/openmoko/ so it goes straight to the moko blog too.
Jan 26 11:34:43 <Morgret> I guess they don't really get the idea of open source.
Jan 26 11:35:11 <mickeyl> rwhitby: there are two links. the name corresponds to your site, the rss image corresponds to the openmoko category
Jan 26 11:35:33 <robtaylor> what a bunch of tossers
Jan 26 11:35:35 <mickeyl> (easy to miss, i know... might ping the designer to make it a bit more ovbious)
Jan 26 11:36:07 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: Vote: February. Reasons: Not that much to discuss about real code. I fear this list will be also flamed atm.
Jan 26 11:36:09 <rwhitby> mickeyl: stefan's name links to his moko blog archive, not his home page
Jan 26 11:36:20 <hrw|work> rwhitby: http://www.rwhitby.net/blog/category/openmoko/feed/
Jan 26 11:36:40 <stefan_schmidt> morning all, btw
Jan 26 11:36:48 <hrw|work> rwhitby: your blog looks like copy of mine ;D
Jan 26 11:36:51 <mickeyl> rwhitby: righto. i'll keep that in mind 
Jan 26 11:36:51 <rwhitby> hrw|work: yes, that's the feed, but the name should link to the moko category archive.
Jan 26 11:36:57 <rwhitby> hrw|work: same theme
Jan 26 11:37:14 <Morgret> Make at least two lists please, user and dev.  And make the dev one have a clear charter of TECHNICAL ISSUES ONLY.
Jan 26 11:37:15 <mickeyl> it's a bit inconsistent. some links point to the openmoko category, some to the main page
Jan 26 11:38:04 <rwhitby> mickeyl: I'd prefer linking directly to openmoko, in case I move blogs from the main page to a subdir.  I also think people following that link will want to go straight to the openmoko stuff.
Jan 26 11:38:42 <mickeyl> rwhitby: ok, i'm not in charge of the planet, but I'll mention that
Jan 26 11:38:47 <rwhitby> mickeyl: thx
Jan 26 11:39:04 <mickeyl> you see my thinking was that
Jan 26 11:39:13 <mickeyl> a) signal/noise ration on community is way bad for devels at this point
Jan 26 11:39:28 <mickeyl> b) you can already talk about Gtk+, about UI technology, about OE, aux APIs and stuff
Jan 26 11:39:31 <mickeyl> even without the device
Jan 26 11:39:34 <mickeyl> but i'm undecided yet
Jan 26 11:39:42 <hrw|work> I got mail about winning lottery. but not phone lottery but uk spam..
Jan 26 11:39:50 <mickeyl> hrw|work: heh
Jan 26 11:40:19 <rwhitby> mickeyl: since I come from the NAS/router OE usage background, I'd love a devel list right now which talked about all that stuff.
Jan 26 11:40:39 <hrw|work> mickeyl: I think that community ML reached point when we need to have devel list or some people will drop project
Jan 26 11:40:39 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: The question is if you core devs have time to deal with coding questions atm.
Jan 26 11:40:57 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: we don't, that's true.
Jan 26 11:41:05 <hrw|work> stefan_schmidt: some people on devel list will be able to answer some of questions
Jan 26 11:41:28 <stefan_schmidt> hrw|work: Fair enough. Perhaps it is worth a try.
Jan 26 11:41:31 <Morgret> But non-core experts will be able to deal with most of the issues, as long as they are up-to-scratch with it.
Jan 26 11:41:51 <stefan_schmidt> OK, guys you win. I vote for devel list now. :)
Jan 26 11:41:54 <mickeyl> hehe
Jan 26 11:41:59 <rwhitby> how about we create the list with the clear expectation that answers from openmoko staff cannot be expected before the developer release.
Jan 26 11:42:04 <stefan_schmidt> BUt I like to see you all helping out there. :)
Jan 26 11:42:12 <LaF0rge> rwhitby: the links are taken from the rss
Jan 26 11:42:22 <mickeyl> cheers LaF0rge
Jan 26 11:42:29 * CM votes now
Jan 26 11:42:30 <Morgret> Need both ML and active wiki though --- the wiki holds info that gets lost in a high-volume ML
Jan 26 11:42:34 <LaF0rge> rwhitby: so if your rss feed for the openmoko category links to the main blog, then we link to that
Jan 26 11:42:48 <LaF0rge> rwhitby: so it's up to you to change that, AFAICT
Jan 26 11:43:39 <rwhitby> LaF0rge: ok, thanks.  I'll look into it.
Jan 26 11:43:53 <mickeyl> ok, guys. then please note https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/openmoko-devel -- i'm going to announce on the community list tomorrow
Jan 26 11:43:59 <rwhitby> (I guess it doesn't get my name from the RSS though ;-)
Jan 26 11:44:19 <Morgret> rwhitby: item 1 for ML agenda will be putting FAQs in a FAQ then, or it'll be a headache.
Jan 26 11:44:31 <LaF0rge> rwhitby: we feed the plane with "realname, RSS feed url" tuples, the rest is from the RSS
Jan 26 11:44:55 <LaF0rge> rwhitby: your openmoko feed has <channel><link>http://www.rwhitby.net</link>
Jan 26 11:45:00 <mickeyl> LaF0rge: i just sent a mail regarding s/Rob Whitby/Rod Whitby'
Jan 26 11:45:42 <rwhitby> LaF0rge: thx - that explains why all the wordpress ones link to the site main page instead of the feed category archive
Jan 26 11:46:10 <LaF0rge> mickey: sean already fixed it
Jan 26 11:46:26 <mickeyl> wow, that was quick
Jan 26 11:46:35 <rwhitby> LaF0rge: please pass on my thanks to Sean.
Jan 26 11:48:34 * rwhitby celebrates Australia Day today.
Jan 26 11:48:52 <XorA> does that mean we all have to drive XXXX
Jan 26 11:48:57 <XorA> s/drive/drink/
Jan 26 11:48:58 <apt> XorA meant: does that mean we all have to drink XXXX
Jan 26 11:49:20 <hrw|work>  
Jan 26 11:49:20 <rwhitby> XorA: I grew up in Queensland, and went to Uni not far from the XXXX brewery.
Jan 26 11:49:38 <hrw|work> XXXX is australian beer vendor?
Jan 26 11:49:51 <XorA> hrw|work: Castlemaine 4X or something like that
Jan 26 11:50:05 <rwhitby> http://www.xxxx.com.au/
Jan 26 11:51:18 <rwhitby> XorA: but now I live in Adelaide, and the local beer is Coopers Ale (http://www.coopers.com.au/)
Jan 26 11:51:19 <Agrajag-> xxxx is horrible stuff
Jan 26 11:51:54 * XorA is a real ale, XXXX is for when you want to get wrecked and dont care about the hang over
Jan 26 11:51:56 <XorA> s/ale/ale man/
Jan 26 11:52:04 <rwhitby> Coopers is much better than XXXX.
Jan 26 11:52:21 <Agrajag-> boags premium is the best!
Jan 26 11:52:29 <Agrajag-> (besides my homebrew)
Jan 26 11:52:48 <loufoque> if you're a real ale man you should drink european beer
Jan 26 11:53:09 <XorA> loufoque: being in europe I do
Jan 26 11:53:10 <rwhitby> Agrajag-: happy oz day.
Jan 26 11:53:14 <Agrajag-> ;)
Jan 26 11:53:32 <rwhitby> any other aussies here?
Jan 26 11:54:00 <Morgret> Beer is environmentally unfriendly, uses too much water.  Drink wine!!! ;-)
Jan 26 11:54:23 <XorA> Morgret: dont you mean whiskey
Jan 26 11:54:46 <Morgret> XorA: oh good point, 40 proof is even more environmentally friendly :P
Jan 26 11:55:02 <XorA> although I live in scotland and hate Scotch :-)
Jan 26 11:55:24 <rwhitby> Morgret: South Australia has the world's best wine too ... ;-) (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Barossa_Valley)
Jan 26 11:55:24 <SpeedEvil> What about the real national drink, Iron Bru
Jan 26 11:55:27 <SpeedEvil> ?
Jan 26 11:55:33 * XorA likes that
Jan 26 11:55:48 <loufoque> belgian, german, austrian and czech beers are supposed to be the best
Jan 26 11:56:06 <rwhitby> See, that's what's missing from the community mailing list.  Discussion about beer.  That's why it's so hostile.
Jan 26 11:56:25 <Morgret> rwhitby: yep, I'm drinking a Shiraz Mataro from Sth East Australia right now, and it's nice.
Jan 26 11:56:26 <XorA> OpenMoko should come with a beer token :-)
Jan 26 11:56:29 <hrw|work> rwhitby: start proper thread?
Jan 26 11:57:11 * rwhitby thinks mickeyl would have needed a drink after the abuse he got on the list today ...
Jan 26 11:57:36 <mickeyl> :)
Jan 26 11:57:40 <Morgret> What was the issue?
Jan 26 11:58:57 <XorA> we gonna need to do 10mins in a boxing ring with mickeyl at FOSDEM :-)
Jan 26 11:59:07 <rwhitby> Morgret: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002315.html
Jan 26 11:59:25 <Morgret> Tnx
Jan 26 11:59:52 <rwhitby> Unbelievably rude and uncalled for.
Jan 26 12:00:28 <Morgret> Jeez
Jan 26 12:00:55 <rwhitby> It seems that some people think that OpenMoko "owe" them an open source phone revolution, instead of being grateful that OpenMoko is the only one willing to even go into that area.
Jan 26 12:01:10 <Morgret> The attack was totally uncalled for.  He could have made his point about release dates and SVN without any of that abuse.
Jan 26 12:01:17 <CM> Wow, he must have had a really bad day or something
Jan 26 12:01:58 <robtaylor> and afact, what he wants to happen is pretty much what's happening. weirdo
Jan 26 12:02:19 <XorA> anyone complaining about the release dates obviously needs to get a real job with real problems
Jan 26 12:02:32 * rwhitby thought koen was Mr OE, not mickeyl ;-)
Jan 26 12:02:42 <SpeedEvil> Or start developing software, so that it's ready earlier.
Jan 26 12:02:43 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jan 26 12:02:50 <XorA> rwhitby: kOEn
Jan 26 12:03:00 <rwhitby> XorA: 'zacly
Jan 26 12:03:33 <Morgret> Well it's just a matter of abuse.  Uncomfortable questions are fine, nobody wants fanboys.  But personal abuse is not fine.  And anyone sensible can see the difference.
Jan 26 12:03:39 <XorA> now will this fscking DMA work this time
Jan 26 12:04:24 <CM> rwhitby: Does the nslu2 work well with usb2-hubs?
Jan 26 12:04:31 <rwhitby> Morgret: yes, the community needs to make sure that people realise that that sort of behaviour is just unacceptable.
Jan 26 12:04:54 <rwhitby> CM: yep, if you're running real firmware (not the Linksys/SerComm stuff)
Jan 26 12:05:11 <Morgret> Hehe, "real" firmware
Jan 26 12:05:13 * CM was thinking of MokoSlug of course
Jan 26 12:05:37 <rwhitby> MoKoSlug is just a cut-down version of Angstrom.
Jan 26 12:05:43 <CM> I mean, 2 usb ports is a bit tight
Jan 26 12:06:07 <rwhitby> CM: one for disk, one for BT dongle.
Jan 26 12:07:27 <CM> Guess that's all I need actually.. And I already have both
Jan 26 12:07:58 <rwhitby> it will be interesting to see what synergies are gained by having the MokoSlug server and the Neo phone being build from essentially the same source base (including all the same Linux non-gui applications)
Jan 26 12:08:21 <rwhitby> s/build/built/
Jan 26 12:08:21 <apt> rwhitby meant: it will be interesting to see what synergies are gained by having the MokoSlug server and the Neo phone being built from essentially the same source base (including all the same Linux non-gui applications)
Jan 26 12:08:59 <rwhitby> at least you won't need to learn two different networking config script syntaxes.
Jan 26 12:09:24 <hrw|work> one for storage (hdd, pendrive), second for BT2 dongle, third for my multifunction device (printer/scanner)
Jan 26 12:09:35 * amarsh04 lives in Adelaide, .au
Jan 26 12:09:55 <CM> hrw|work: True, printer sharing would be nice too
Jan 26 12:10:00 <rwhitby> amarsh04: same here.
Jan 26 12:10:14 <amarsh04> rwhitby, I gather that you would know Peter Ballard from Austek and Geoffrey Bennett from Motorola or LinuxSA?
Jan 26 12:10:26 <rwhitby> amarsh04: yep
Jan 26 12:11:07 <rwhitby> I hope to show off a Neo at the March LinuxSA meeting, The Great Moko God willing ;-)
Jan 26 12:11:18 <amarsh04> excellent, whitby
Jan 26 12:13:22 <amarsh04> I'm way below either of those two in technical/academic capability
Jan 26 12:14:04 <hrw|work> mickeyl: phase0/1 phones will get send directly from Taiwan?
Jan 26 12:15:24 <Morgret> Hopefully there will be a few depots around the world, or else the shipping costs for individual orders will be dreadful.
Jan 26 12:15:58 <mickeyl> hrw|work: 0 yes, 1 i don't know
Jan 26 12:16:42 <mickeyl> they have a world-wide shipping infrastructure, so it won't be too bad
Jan 26 12:16:59 <Morgret> Ah yeah, big company
Jan 26 12:17:15 <hrw|work> mickeyl: 22% VAT for customs if package from outside of UE...
Jan 26 12:17:28 <XorA> you need only same the words OpenMoko backwards three times into a mirror then look over your shoulder
Jan 26 12:17:29 <amarsh04> even getting a phone in .au, one time I had to go to Adelaide Airport and sign for it there
Jan 26 12:18:06 <rwhitby> amarsh04: anything under $1000 doesn't attract GST on imports I think.
Jan 26 12:18:20 <amarsh04> getting an OpenMoko from .tw wouldn't be worse than that
Jan 26 12:18:34 <amarsh04> that sounds promising, rwhitby
Jan 26 12:19:17 <Morgret> I wish one could pre-pay duty.  Having packages detained at customs is just annoying.
Jan 26 12:20:31 <XorA> Morgret: you can, but couriers dont like you doing it, it means they cant charge their "handling" ripoff fees
Jan 26 12:20:40 <Morgret> :-(
Jan 26 12:21:57 <rwhitby> amarsh04: http://www.customs.gov.au/site/page.cfm?u=5549
Jan 26 12:22:20 <rwhitby> under AUD$1000 is duty and tax free.
Jan 26 12:22:55 <amarsh04> Thanks: " All goods (except for tobacco products and alcoholic beverages) may be imported duty and tax free if their value is $1,000 or less."
Jan 26 12:23:18 <rwhitby> That might even cover the cost of a Neo v2 ;-)
Jan 26 12:32:34 <Morgret> LOL, more ammo for copyright/DRM debates:  "When your incremental cost for making another copy is zero, what makes you think that your incremental profit should be non-zero?"
Jan 26 12:37:49 <nnpiggy> Morgret, do you subscribe to public radio?
Jan 26 12:40:09 <Morgret> nnpiggy: nope, why?
Jan 26 12:40:54 <nnpiggy> The incremental cost for adding a single listener to public radio is zero. Yet thousands of people pay for it voluntarily.
Jan 26 12:42:03 <nnpiggy> The public radio networks on the other hand, charge the local affiliates by the estimated size of their listening audience. Is this an unfair practice?
Jan 26 12:43:20 <Morgret> Too many factors mixed up in that to discuss it simply.  The radio stations are independent operators for a start.  If they were the music labels directly, then perhaps it could be discussed.
Jan 26 12:44:06 <Morgret> Want to discuss it on a different channel?  It might be possible to discuss rationally, but it would be long and be off-topic here.
Jan 26 12:46:35 * amarsh04 *really* appreciates non-commercial radio (including recording streaming MP3 broadcasts of live concerts)
Jan 26 12:47:33 <amarsh04> how feasible is an audio recording capability for openmoko?
Jan 26 12:47:47 <amarsh04> e.g. to the micro SD card?
Jan 26 12:48:04 <Morgret> amarsh04: check out Peercast if you haven't already, it lets anyone "broadcast" since it's P2P, and quite a few bands are outputting their own stuff out on it.
Jan 26 12:49:09 <plaes> wtf is peercast?
Jan 26 12:49:23 <SpeedEvil> An interesting "p2p" app would be local discovery of the person with the cheapest connection to the internet locally, then use their phone - for a fee paid to them.
Jan 26 12:49:23 <Morgret> Google("Peercast")
Jan 26 12:49:27 <plaes> "peer" == "fart" in my language :P
Jan 26 12:50:21 <Morgret> http://www.peercast.org/info.php
Jan 26 12:50:55 <plaes> is cool, but sounds bad :D
Jan 26 12:51:29 <SpeedEvil> Why bad?
Jan 26 12:51:34 <SpeedEvil> Oh - you mean quality.
Jan 26 12:52:13 <plaes> no.. the translation.. :P
Jan 26 12:52:17 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Jan 26 12:52:18 <amarsh04> thanks, Morget ... 
Jan 26 12:52:20 <Morgret> Well, "Moko" sounds like "moco" which is a nasal effluent in Spanish ... so really the name doesn't matter :P
Jan 26 12:54:02 <Morgret> Peercast should actually work fine over the Neo's Bluetooth
Jan 26 12:55:41 <robtaylor> hell, it sounds like its soemthing to do with java in english
Jan 26 12:55:56 <Morgret> Yeah :P
Jan 26 12:56:24 <Morgret> Starbuck's mocha is DRM'd ...
Jan 26 12:56:36 <amarsh04> I'd like the second hardware release for openmoko to start to overlap with the capabilities of products like those from www.maycom.nl
Jan 26 12:58:45 <Morgret> Even Neo#1 will do most of that, with an external microphone if you want quality.
Jan 26 13:03:37 <Morgret> The main problem with Neo#1 in this area is likely to be the unpowered USB, since you won't be able to use a USB microphone for example unless you also carry a battery-powered hub with you.
Jan 26 13:03:37 <mickeyl> hmm parcel man
Jan 26 13:03:52 * mickeyl unpacks his parcel
Jan 26 13:04:15 <Morgret> Santa Claus was late ... :P
Jan 26 13:04:22 * mickeyl finds three things
Jan 26 13:04:30 <mickeyl> OpenPCD.org RFID reader
Jan 26 13:04:36 <mickeyl> Neo1973 battery prototype
Jan 26 13:04:41 <mickeyl> Mini Jtag USB interface
Jan 26 13:04:43 <mickeyl> nice
Jan 26 13:04:43 <rwhitby> mickeyl: gold, frankensense, myrrh ?
Jan 26 13:04:46 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 26 13:04:48 <mickeyl> not quite
Jan 26 13:04:57 <Morgret> Gratz :-)
Jan 26 13:05:01 <TRIsoft> Sounds like fun for the weekend ;-)
Jan 26 13:05:10 <mickeyl> yeah :)
Jan 26 13:05:34 <TRIsoft> And a battery prototype without a Neo is kinda strange humor :D
Jan 26 13:05:40 <mickeyl> hehe
Jan 26 13:05:55 <mickeyl> it gets even better... the battery prototype has a 3.5 headphone plug attached
Jan 26 13:06:04 <Morgret> Look on the positive side:  the charge will last longer ;-)
Jan 26 13:06:11 <mickeyl> LaF0rge prepared that for me :)
Jan 26 13:06:43 <mickeyl> the new audio subsystem... listen to the accumulator waves
Jan 26 13:06:44 <mickeyl> heh
Jan 26 13:07:08 <TRIsoft> Thought it's for speech output about remaining capacity ?
Jan 26 13:07:23 <TRIsoft> *low voice* "Charge me, charge me" :D
Jan 26 13:07:31 <Morgret> That'll be very deep bass sound coming out of the battery ... DC.
Jan 26 13:08:36 <XorA> mickeyl: that prototype got a case?
Jan 26 13:09:14 <mickeyl> XorA: It's just the battery prototype (i.e. a real battery with a headphone plug)
Jan 26 13:09:20 <mickeyl> not the actual Neo case
Jan 26 13:09:29 <mickeyl> LaF0rge is the only one in EU having a case prototype
Jan 26 13:09:30 <mickeyl> *envy*
Jan 26 13:09:48 <XorA> mickeyl: so only he gets the pounding techno goodness :-)
Jan 26 13:10:07 <XorA> you'll have to kick a box instead
Jan 26 13:10:18 <mickeyl> XorA: indeed. then again... knowing him, it's probably rather indian pop
Jan 26 13:10:22 * mickeyl chuckles
Jan 26 13:10:43 * XorA has been testing with a techno track
Jan 26 13:10:55 <mickeyl> XorA: how's the quality over headphones?
Jan 26 13:11:00 * rwhitby still doesn't get why a battery has a headphone plug.
Jan 26 13:11:14 <XorA> sounds good, but there is board noise
Jan 26 13:12:24 <mickeyl> rwhitby: most prototypes were modified to use a headphone plug as AC plug. the battery now attaches to that plug
Jan 26 13:12:45 <rwhitby> mickeyl: ah, that makes sense now.
Jan 26 13:13:14 <XorA> with no case, youd have nowhere to put battery anyway
Jan 26 13:13:15 <mickeyl> that was done for poor software-only guys without lab equipment
Jan 26 13:13:29 <mickeyl> like me
Jan 26 13:13:58 <stefan_schmidt> mickeyl: It's even more funny that you can flash some phones over heaphone jack.
Jan 26 13:14:01 <hrw|work> mickeyl: they should send you one good AC power supply
Jan 26 13:14:05 <amarsh04> is the audio jack input/output or output only?
Jan 26 13:15:32 <mickeyl> stefan_schmidt: it's scary, honestly.
Jan 26 13:15:39 <mickeyl> hrw|work: indeed
Jan 26 13:15:51 <mickeyl> hrw|work: i have a couple of multiAC's now thanks to this project
Jan 26 13:18:31 <hrw|work> mickeyl: thats good
Jan 26 13:19:40 <Morgret> Does anyone have experience of X11 running over Bluetooth?  I was just wondering whether the poor li'l Samsung might actually be faster in thin client mode, when at home with a Bt PAN around it.
Jan 26 13:22:48 <SpeedEvil> I've run X11 over 10base2
Jan 26 13:22:54 <SpeedEvil> It's not actually bad.
Jan 26 13:23:20 <SpeedEvil> With protocol compression, at small window sizes it's not bad.
Jan 26 13:23:20 <mjr> it's okay indeed
Jan 26 13:23:36 <mjr> I'd guess so too
Jan 26 13:24:08 <mjr> X has bigger problems with latency than slow throughput, and in this case that wouldn't be a problem
Jan 26 13:24:35 <SpeedEvil> google dxpc - differential X protocol compressor - I found it worked well for me last time I used it.
Jan 26 13:24:46 <mjr> well, ssh -C does pretty good too
Jan 26 13:24:49 <SpeedEvil> (with a P100 target)
Jan 26 13:25:05 <SpeedEvil> ssh -C has the not insignificant extra load of encryption.
Jan 26 13:25:14 <SpeedEvil> And it does not understand the X protocol.
Jan 26 13:25:29 <mjr> mmh, true, in this case the encryption might be a heavy load
Jan 26 13:25:44 <SpeedEvil> dxpc does semi-smart things with the protocol, more than just compression.
Jan 26 13:25:50 <mjr> and no it doesn't but in practice it does reduce throughput needs quite nicely
Jan 26 13:25:51 <mjr> I know
Jan 26 13:26:30 <SpeedEvil> I was being silly, and trying to play video over 10base2 link. Worked not horribly actually.
Jan 26 13:27:09 <mjr> (I'd feel better encrypting my X over bluetooth with ssh though, still...)
Jan 26 13:27:34 <Morgret> Bt is *much* slower than 10base2, in practice.  You don't get the theoretical 723Kbps (non-EDR) ever in practice, not even close.  In fact, you don't usually even operate it in a mode where that's possible.
Jan 26 13:27:35 <SpeedEvil> True - but dxpc, then encrypt that. 
Jan 26 13:27:58 <SpeedEvil> Yes, I know, but I was mainly trying to use it for stuff like full motion video.
Jan 26 13:28:09 <hrw|work> EDR has (theory) 2.1Mbps real transfer
Jan 26 13:28:37 <mjr> Morgret, and 480x640 is still a pretty small window.
Jan 26 13:28:50 <SpeedEvil> Is it 24 bit?
Jan 26 13:28:57 <hrw|work> 5
Jan 26 13:29:07 <SpeedEvil> 5 bit?
Jan 26 13:29:07 <hrw|work> SpeedEvil: 16 bit
Jan 26 13:29:11 <mjr> I don't think you want to be running animated games or video over X11/bluetooth, but less demanding apps, sure
Jan 26 13:29:12 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Jan 26 13:31:40 <Morgret> Well the micro won't cope with any heavy lifting, which is why "thin client" came to mind, when in "at home" mode.  I think I'll check it out at some point.  We might even be able to make the MokoSlug help out there, reducing the workload further.
Jan 26 13:33:07 <Morgret> Not relevant to normal operation with a roaming mobile, just curious.
Jan 26 13:35:53 <Morgret> Could make the Neo image under xoo be the fast virtual phone when at home, and the hardware Neo just reflecting it as a thin client, if it's turned on.
Jan 26 13:38:04 <Morgret> The possibilities of an open platform are just enormous :-)
Jan 26 13:39:37 <SpeedEvil> Even uncompressed - turning my wifi down to 1mbit, firefox at 640*300*24 bit is not unusable native over X.
Jan 26 13:40:21 <Morgret> Nice data point, cheers
Jan 26 13:42:10 <rwhitby> night all
Jan 26 13:43:10 <Morgret> NN rwhitby
Jan 26 13:43:11 <hrw|work> n8 Rod
Jan 26 13:44:37 <Morgret> Gigabit junkie here ... I think I'm the only one of my friends who doesn't have wifi ... "too slow" ;-)
Jan 26 13:49:03 <leventhal> I was that way until I dismantled the fileserver and stuffed all the drives into my desktop
Jan 26 14:14:45 <Morgret> I don't like desktops, I have no fans or disks or anything else that can be heard, can hear a pin drop and the birds tweet outside.  All connected by Cat5 KVM extenders to remote computer room.
Jan 26 14:15:07 <XorA> yabadabadooooooooooo
Jan 26 14:15:25 <Morgret> Shhhhhh ... birds are tweeting ;-)
Jan 26 14:15:55 * XorA thinks sound recording is working
Jan 26 14:18:25 <stefan_schmidt> XorA: congrats
Jan 26 14:18:27 <mickeyl> ~praise XorA
Jan 26 14:18:48 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jan 26 14:19:00 <XorA> no mic though :-(
Jan 26 14:20:08 <CM> Sound recording without a mic is impressive
Jan 26 14:21:00 <SpeedEvil> Many electronic components are microphonic to some degree.
Jan 26 14:21:17 * XorA will just shout loud
Jan 26 14:21:44 <CM> *nod* Guess any kind of analogue input should work
Jan 26 14:21:54 <Sketch> headphones can make a pretty good mic in a pinch...
Jan 26 14:22:31 <SpeedEvil> Or any speaker.
Jan 26 14:23:43 <Morgret> lol, I'll have to use that line about microphonic components in hardware forums, I think they'll appreciate it ;-)
Jan 26 14:24:24 <XorA> Morgret: its quite common for caps on a board to work as either speakers or mics
Jan 26 14:24:35 <SpeedEvil> And inductors. 
Jan 26 14:24:44 <SpeedEvil> That's why power supplies make noise even with no fans.
Jan 26 14:25:32 <Morgret> XorA: yeah, it was a normal way of checking there's life in a preamp to flick the caps. before it all became digital :P
Jan 26 14:26:11 <l3010o> SpeedEvil: are they the electric noises?
Jan 26 14:34:07 <noidd> nah, just lick the large capacitors in the AC PSU
Jan 26 14:34:30 <noidd> I keep being tempted to have a rare earth magnet implanted in my hand
Jan 26 14:34:47 <leventhal> Me too
Jan 26 14:34:49 <noidd> some electricians are having the operation done so they can *feel* if a line is live.
Jan 26 14:34:53 <leventhal> And a keyloq rfid when they get smaller
Jan 26 14:35:12 <noidd> just wave your hand over a cable and you can feel the AC
Jan 26 14:35:55 <noidd> I have a project question.  At which point during this year should we suggest hardware specs for V2
Jan 26 14:36:20 <leventhal> i can't answer that as well as i can answer where to find a bodymod expert willing to put a magnet in your hand
Jan 26 14:36:25 <noidd> I don't want to hit the list now since we're busy flaming mickeyl and rationally discussing Linux vs GNU/Linus :-P
Jan 26 14:36:47 <noidd> a local tatoo / piercing place will do it.
Jan 26 14:37:04 <leventhal> yeah. not all of them have implant specialists though.
Jan 26 14:37:17 <noidd> local surgeon maybe
Jan 26 14:37:35 <noidd> I would have to only change hard drives with one hand :-P
Jan 26 14:37:56 <leventhal> hah.. somehow i don't think it will be strong enough to damage the data.
Jan 26 14:38:34 <leventhal> i also imagine those induction charging mousepads might make you go crazy if the magnet is in your mousing hand
Jan 26 14:42:02 <Morgret> Talking about induction, it was one of the things we mentioned yesterday, induction-based cellphone charger, like elec toothbrushes.
Jan 26 14:43:23 <xorAxAx> yes
Jan 26 14:43:50 <noidd> Morg: that has to interfere with the redio signals around
Jan 26 14:44:30 <noidd> so it may not be feasable - worth a shot tho
Jan 26 14:44:38 <Morgret> 50-60Hz ... not too many things broadcast on that band ;-)))
Jan 26 14:45:35 <SpeedEvil> There are people who have managed to get patents on that.
Jan 26 14:45:46 <SpeedEvil> And it's a few hundred Khz, not Hz
Jan 26 14:45:58 <Morgret> Radio National Power Grid ... I've never liked their music selection, personally ;-)
Jan 26 14:47:11 <SpeedEvil> Also, unless they are properly designed, large magnetic fields can kill electronics. I lost a LCD backlight to a small fridge magnet on the shelf behind it once.
Jan 26 14:47:51 <noidd> higher frequency == more efficient power tranfer
Jan 26 14:48:01 <noidd> think harmonics
Jan 26 14:48:24 <SpeedEvil> With small sized stuff, yes.
Jan 26 14:48:34 <Morgret> Think sine waves without harmonics ;-)
Jan 26 14:48:56 <noidd> doesn't exist :-)
Jan 26 14:49:19 <Morgret> Nothing is perfect, but your harmonic levels can be waaaay down in dB
Jan 26 14:49:33 <SpeedEvil> It is technically impossible though.
Jan 26 14:49:43 <SpeedEvil> Zero harmonics implies that the tone has been going on for ever.
Jan 26 14:49:48 <SpeedEvil> And the universe is only so old.
Jan 26 14:50:09 <noidd> I never thought of it like that
Jan 26 14:50:10 <noidd> hmmm
Jan 26 14:50:25 <Morgret> Hehehe ... that's an irrefutable argument.  Fortunately, it's not of any consequece IRL :P
Jan 26 14:52:19 <xorAxAx> SpeedEvil: incorrect
Jan 26 14:52:28 <xorAxAx> SpeedEvil: you are confusing amplitude and frequence
Jan 26 14:52:36 <SpeedEvil> Nope.
Jan 26 14:52:37 <xorAxAx> y
Jan 26 14:52:51 <xorAxAx> SpeedEvil: you can lower the amplitude without introducing harmonics
Jan 26 14:52:53 <SpeedEvil> If you have a step change in amplitude from 0 to 1, then it causes harmonics.
Jan 26 14:53:08 <xorAxAx> nobody is talking about steps :)
Jan 26 14:53:12 <SpeedEvil> No, you can't. 
Jan 26 14:53:18 <Morgret> No no, Speed's right.  Over infinite time, a finite sine wave of constant amplitude is indistinguishable from a pulse.
Jan 26 14:53:46 <SpeedEvil> If you subtract a constant from the amplitude of the sine going from 100% to 50%, it goes to 0%
Jan 26 14:53:57 <SpeedEvil> A constant sine wave.
Jan 26 14:54:16 <xorAxAx> ?
Jan 26 14:54:25 <noidd> This reminds me of my phrase of the week
Jan 26 14:54:31 <xorAxAx> Morgret: thats irrelevant
Jan 26 14:54:38 <SpeedEvil> A non-constant sine wave is modulated.
Jan 26 14:54:46 <Morgret> But although he's right *technically*, it means nothing of course.  In practice we can make perfectly good sine-like waves with very low harmonic content.
Jan 26 14:54:50 <SpeedEvil> Modulated sine waves by definition have harmonics.
Jan 26 14:54:54 <xorAxAx> SpeedEvil: of course you modulate it, but assume a very low frequency for the amplitude modulation
Jan 26 14:54:59 <noidd> whcih I have now forgotten. damn.
Jan 26 14:55:15 <SpeedEvil> Very low frequency just means very low amplitude harmonics - they are still there.
Jan 26 14:55:25 <xorAxAx> thats irrelevant
Jan 26 14:55:36 <l3010o> low freq= low amplitude harmonics??
Jan 26 14:55:37 <xorAxAx> you wont be able to measure them :)
Jan 26 14:56:08 <SpeedEvil> If you modulate a sine wave you create harmonics, you have to, or it would be an unchanging sine wave.
Jan 26 14:56:19 <SpeedEvil> It's just the way the maths falls out.
Jan 26 14:56:28 <Morgret> See guys, this is what happens to an OpenMoko channel when it has no code to hack :P
Jan 26 14:56:52 <noidd> Sorry guys, I insist you call the the GnuSineWave
Jan 26 14:57:03 <Morgret> rofl
Jan 26 14:57:06 <l3010o> it's the acoustic channel hehee
Jan 26 14:57:06 <noidd> every time you use the term, otherwise you're not giving propper credit.
Jan 26 14:58:48 <leventhal> Wow.. godaddy pulled seclists.org. Glad I didn't reg anything with godaddy.
Jan 26 15:00:52 <Morgret> I guess they're acting in accordance with their initial 3 letters.
Jan 26 15:01:43 <l3010o> leventhal, i dont get it :(
Jan 26 15:01:52 <leventhal> For her part, GoDaddy general counsel Christine Jones defended the abrupt deletion, saying: "We tried to contact the registrant, but they were not available at the time. ...
Jan 26 15:01:55 <leventhal> But Vaskovich provided CNET News.com with a log of correspondence from GoDaddy that corroborates his version of the story. It indicated that only 52 seconds elapsed from an initial voice mail notification to the time the domain was marked as "suspended."
Jan 26 15:02:35 <leventhal> So.. you operate a mailing list archive. You don't read the quarter million pages of data to realize someone posted a password list. GoDaddy tries to call you and gives you 52 seconds to respond to a voicemail.
Jan 26 15:03:18 <l3010o> any links of articles?
Jan 26 15:03:30 <leventhal> http://news.com.com/2100-1025_3-6153607.html?part=rss&tag=2547-1_3-0-5&subj=news
Jan 26 15:03:36 <MetaBookfoziS> what gonna be the default browser on neo?
Jan 26 15:03:41 <leventhal> forgot to link that this channel.. oops, heh
Jan 26 15:04:12 <l3010o> leventhal, thx
Jan 26 15:04:20 <leventhal> np
Jan 26 15:05:35 <Morgret> The problem goes a lot deeper than this little event though.  A domain registrar has no business cutting off access under ANY circumstances whatsoever.  It should not even be possible.
Jan 26 15:07:00 <l3010o> it's terrible...
Jan 26 15:07:01 <leventhal> yeah.. it's one thing to delete records on their dns server. but fyodor ran his own dns server, they killed the domain.
Jan 26 15:07:15 <leventhal> it's understandable if there was a court order but there wasn't
Jan 26 15:10:06 <l3010o> so..if somebody posts a list of pwd on myspace, myspace should also be deleted :)
Jan 26 15:10:17 <Morgret> :-)
Jan 26 15:10:47 <Morgret> I'm sure that's occurred to someone already, and they're just preparing the list of passwords :P
Jan 26 15:12:04 <Morgret> While they're at it, they should post a list of Godaddy password on the Godaddy support forum ... and then Godaddy will of course have to delist itself.
Jan 26 15:13:42 <XorA> you'll find the Lawyer at myspace is in the old boys network with the one at godaddy, why bother doing things right when your mate can just delete the data
Jan 26 15:15:56 <Morgret> This begs the question of why the Internet isn't resilient to domain name tampering by registrars.  Having a domain name registered with a single registrar is a single point of failure by design.
Jan 26 15:18:18 <leventhal> Because the US government wants to be able to kill isonews and bong e-shops
Jan 26 15:18:38 <buz> like either of them couldnt exist under foreign domains
Jan 26 15:19:14 <Morgret> Don't think the US government controls the IETF.  This is actually *our* failure, as techs.
Jan 26 15:19:58 <buz> and the iana is just corrupt
Jan 26 15:20:05 <buz> whomever pays the most they'll listen to
Jan 26 15:22:19 <Morgret> Re "pay" ... I agree, although the coin isnt entirely money.  It's a matter of power and influence and, most importantly, peer-group allegiances.
Jan 26 15:22:57 <buz> yeah  payment isnt always just money
Jan 26 15:24:20 <noidd> You are all too cynical.  You should learn to love your masters.
Jan 26 15:24:31 <noidd> ironic you should say that
Jan 26 15:24:37 <noidd> I just registered 6 domains with GoDaddy
Jan 26 15:24:42 <noidd> then came back to this page :-P
Jan 26 15:24:50 <leventhal> heh
Jan 26 15:25:03 <leventhal> any vanity domains?
Jan 26 15:25:06 <buz> most of mine are with godaddy too
Jan 26 15:25:15 <noidd> define Vanity
Jan 26 15:25:22 <leventhal> mine are with 10dollar.ca .. I'm a big spender.
Jan 26 15:25:22 <Morgret> And this is one of the things that gives OpenMoko extremely powerful possibilities.  It can undermine a hell of a lot of establishment crap.  If it becomes successful, expect a huge amount of FUD and worse coming our way.
Jan 26 15:25:30 <buz> most registrars are shite, so i go to the cheapest one
Jan 26 15:25:42 <leventhal> noidd: something that would be fun to irc with
Jan 26 15:26:07 <Morgret> Is there a registrar running on Sealand?
Jan 26 15:26:14 * noidd chuckles and remembers ircing from i-asked-for-fries-not-salad-with-my-steak.madhouse.org.uk
Jan 26 15:26:17 <buz> oh please
Jan 26 15:26:26 <buz> sealand is about the most ridiculous thing there is
Jan 26 15:26:41 <Morgret> buz: reason?
Jan 26 15:26:54 <buz> it can exist until the british cut fibre
Jan 26 15:27:17 <noidd> I just registered domains that I can run my openmoko feeds from
Jan 26 15:27:24 <leventhal> ahh
Jan 26 15:27:24 <Morgret> buz: aha, so it's a powerless state --- can there possibly be a better property in a state??????
Jan 26 15:27:34 <noidd> something a little more appropriate than unixfu.com or criticalintegration.com
Jan 26 15:27:44 <leventhal> noidd: yeah i'm abusing an ipv6 tunnel just to irc from fun hostnames
Jan 26 15:27:47 <buz> if the state cant defend your property, the property is worthless
Jan 26 15:27:53 <leventhal> my favourite is rtfm.google-it.info
Jan 26 15:28:04 <leventhal> but i don't feel that evil today
Jan 26 15:28:27 <Morgret> buz: you must be joking.  If you rely on your state for your property, you enjoy wishful thinking
Jan 26 15:29:05 <buz> property is basically an abstract concept that relies on legal and social rules to exist
Jan 26 15:29:29 <Morgret> buz: a registrar based in a powerless but independent state would have no government able to influence it.  And it wouldn't need to be in bed with the MySpaces of this world
Jan 26 15:30:01 <buz> not his own goverment, but everything else in the world
Jan 26 15:30:30 <buz> if no one's gonna punish you for blowing up sealand...
Jan 26 15:30:31 <noidd> I would love to run ipv6
Jan 26 15:30:38 <noidd> but none of my ISPs support it afaik
Jan 26 15:30:59 <noidd> believe me, I can defend my property
Jan 26 15:31:04 <buz> (now i'm the last to trust the government, but there is a few things that cant very well be solved without it)
Jan 26 15:31:07 <Morgret> buz: almost nobody else in the world except the Brits have any power over Sealand, since they're not going to enter Brit-disputed territorial waters to blow up Sealand
Jan 26 15:31:11 <noidd> I have a fully loaded 9mm strapped to my side as we speak
Jan 26 15:31:25 <buz> so sealand essentially is over the rule of the brits
Jan 26 15:31:38 <buz> s/over/under/
Jan 26 15:31:39 <apt> buz meant: so sealand essentially is under the rule of the brits
Jan 26 15:31:51 <leventhal> okay, there we go.
Jan 26 15:31:56 <noidd> nice
Jan 26 15:32:02 <buz> lol
Jan 26 15:32:22 <Morgret> buz: nope, they don't touch it because it would be bad PR.  There would have to be *extreme* direct provocation to do so.  And MySpace certainly could not achieve it.
Jan 26 15:32:25 <leventhal> it was that or das.komputery.name .. 
Jan 26 15:32:43 <leventhal> i tread a fine line between fun and dns pollution
Jan 26 15:32:56 <buz> if sealand started hosting truly illegal stuff count on it disappearing over night
Jan 26 15:33:08 <leventhal> :: join #bitchx :: desane (desane@if.I.were.a.perl.script.would.you.love.fork.ing.me.uk)
Jan 26 15:33:11 <leventhal> :: mode #bitchx :: (+b *!*@*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*.*) by pheret
Jan 26 15:33:14 <leventhal> :: kick #bitchx :: pheret kicked desane (banned: If you match this, you have a lame host.)
Jan 26 15:33:24 <Morgret> buz: I'm talking about registrars.  Hosting, sure, that's a provocation
Jan 26 15:33:55 <buz> i wouldnt bet on the bureaucrats in london (or anywhere else really) knowing the difference
Jan 26 15:34:19 <leventhal> well.. i'm not sure it's that big of an issue yet
Jan 26 15:34:39 <leventhal> this wasn't a government thing, this was godaddy buckling under myspace
Jan 26 15:34:51 <buz> well THATs just ridiculous
Jan 26 15:34:54 <buz> and quite likely illegal
Jan 26 15:34:58 <leventhal> although the US gov has ordered a few domains to be suspended
Jan 26 15:35:09 <noidd> someoine registered mokoloco.com
Jan 26 15:35:10 <noidd> :-P
Jan 26 15:35:47 <leventhal> buz: yeah, i don't think keeping a domain listed qualifies as a service.. i can see godaddy being within their rights to lock him out of his web front end and allow him to transfer registrars, but delisting his domain was wrong
Jan 26 15:35:59 <leventhal> it'd be interesting to see if it ever went to court but it won't
Jan 26 15:36:05 <leventhal> unless EFF picks it up
Jan 26 15:36:17 <SpeedEvil> Not to mention extra-state actors. Get assorted terrorists annoyed at you, and they come along with a large torpedo.
Jan 26 15:36:29 <Morgret> openloco is prolly a rail enthusiast's site ... :P
Jan 26 15:37:31 <SpeedEvil> Spanish Transport Tycoon looks like.
Jan 26 15:38:15 <ROB1963> will opentt run on the neo? rofl
Jan 26 15:38:35 <noidd> mailing list alert
Jan 26 15:38:40 <noidd> its about to get flammey again
Jan 26 15:38:41 <noidd> "And once a developer puts a price on an application, should you 'share'
Jan 26 15:38:41 <noidd> or 'unauthorise copy' an application then you are a pirate.
Jan 26 15:38:41 <noidd> Unless of course you don't mind me coming over and 'sharing' your
Jan 26 15:38:43 <noidd> refrigerator.
Jan 26 15:38:43 <noidd> "
Jan 26 15:38:54 * leventhal subscribes
Jan 26 15:38:56 <Morgret> The really sad thing about all this is ... the allegedly existing darknets are immune to all this political crap.  
Jan 26 15:39:29 <mjr> noidd, yeah, *sigh*
Jan 26 15:39:45 <SpeedEvil> IMO, paid apps are good for the platform.
Jan 26 15:40:11 <SpeedEvil> There is always the opportunity for someone to clone a free one if they object strongly enough.
Jan 26 15:40:31 <noidd> I kind of lean towards them being neutral
Jan 26 15:40:57 <SpeedEvil> Any app that is good, that causes someone to buy an openmoko phone is good.
Jan 26 15:41:00 <noidd> the statement that we should not allow the user to install proprietary software is sheer hypocrasy
Jan 26 15:41:06 <SpeedEvil> It gets the platform out there.
Jan 26 15:41:16 <Morgret> noidd:  the price placed by a developer on an application replicated at zero cost is of course a virtual price, so you should of course pay the developer in virtual money.
Jan 26 15:41:24 <noidd> Giving your user freedom includes giving them the freedom to make dumb descisions.
Jan 26 15:41:31 <xorAxAx> noidd: it is GNU/proprietary software!!111one
Jan 26 15:41:32 <xorAxAx> :)
Jan 26 15:41:55 <noidd> Morg: We've argued this point for the last 12 years.  We're not going to come to an agreement today ;-d
Jan 26 15:42:02 <noidd> haha
Jan 26 15:42:08 <Morgret> We could try :P
Jan 26 15:42:20 * SpeedEvil hands noidd a coin.
Jan 26 15:42:24 <noidd> queston: anyone know where xkr47's scanning countown page is?
Jan 26 15:43:02 <noidd> My software.  If I choose to give it away (like I do with 99.9% of software I write) I'll do that.
Jan 26 15:43:07 <noidd> Others I'll sell per copy
Jan 26 15:43:17 <noidd> anotherpiece of software I sold *per execution*
Jan 26 15:43:45 <noidd> they paid me USD 6000 every time they executed it.
Jan 26 15:44:17 <noidd> and the customer was ecstatic about it.
Jan 26 15:44:50 <SpeedEvil> The user should always get to choose if they are willing to pay for stuff from developers.
Jan 26 15:45:07 <SpeedEvil> IMO, there is a big argument for this even for 'free' stuff.
Jan 26 15:45:13 <SpeedEvil> A 'donate' menu.
Jan 26 15:45:20 <SpeedEvil> Though where this goes is problematic.
Jan 26 15:45:48 <SpeedEvil> Err - willing to pay for suff forom developers who want to sell it.
Jan 26 15:45:51 <mjr> yeah, I just suggested on-list that there should be a standard place for donation links to go to
Jan 26 15:47:26 <noidd> the problem with standard place is that equates to monopoly.
Jan 26 15:47:35 <noidd> standard mechanism perhaps.
Jan 26 15:47:41 <SpeedEvil> That's the problem about where it goes.
Jan 26 15:47:46 <mjr> you're out of it
Jan 26 15:47:48 <Morgret> I agree entirely.  When the producer and the consumer agree on a value point for a property, there is no issue.  The issue only arises when there is a fundamental disagreement, as exhibited by the alleged 100 (?) million people in the US who disagree and vote with their feet.
Jan 26 15:48:20 <SpeedEvil> I think the number is higher.
Jan 26 15:48:26 <SpeedEvil> 'home taping is killing music'
Jan 26 15:48:33 <Morgret> yeah, seem to remember it was 200m
Jan 26 15:48:51 <noidd> Well, they should all be prosecuted.
Jan 26 15:49:07 <noidd> Just because you break contract in millions, doesn't mean the contract is null.
Jan 26 15:49:10 <Morgret> Well, you can't have 200m people being "criminals" (yeah, I know it's civil) in a country ... it means that the labelling/law is wrong.
Jan 26 15:49:23 <mjr> noidd, copyright isn't a contract, by the way
Jan 26 15:49:32 <noidd> it means that the producer needs to re-examine their current contracts and find something more appealing.
Jan 26 15:50:24 <noidd> WHen you buy a piece of software you agree to terms of use.  Part of those terms of use is that you do not allow people to make copies.
Jan 26 15:50:35 <Morgret> noidd: sure.  But when the producer is not willing to do so, then you have an area of dispute.  And that's where the world is now, in dispute.  Meanwhile, there are not rightts and wrongs.  There is simply dispute.
Jan 26 15:50:49 <noidd> Actually - you could argue that the only person who is breaking the contract is the person who originally bought it and allowed the copies to be made.
Jan 26 15:50:58 <noidd> actually - I would support that interpretation.
Jan 26 15:51:02 <mjr> noidd, yes, and I was just about to argue that
Jan 26 15:51:21 <noidd> Morg: then people need to not buy those products and enter into those contracts.
Jan 26 15:51:39 <noidd> I thought we gave up just taking things without consequences in kindergarden :-)
Jan 26 15:52:30 <SpeedEvil> http://www.baen.com/ is an interesting datapoint. They distribute (mainly SF) books without encryption. They also have a 'free library' section - with selected books available free. Without exception, those authors with books available free other book sales went up.
Jan 26 15:52:54 <leventhal> yeah I'm a fan of baen
Jan 26 15:54:41 <noidd> > Ah, so companies have no rights and deserve no protections under the law?
Jan 26 15:54:41 <noidd> > Morg - you're starting to sound like a marxist (Russ)
Jan 26 15:57:03 <l3010o> hi guyz, how can i get started from openembedded?
Jan 26 15:57:19 <l3010o> i can connect to the site now
Jan 26 15:57:36 <XorA> wooooo, before the nazis come up, can we go back to beer discussions
Jan 26 15:57:37 <l3010o> openmoko is built by bitbake?
Jan 26 15:59:19 <l3010o> XorA, wt's 'nazis'? 
Jan 26 16:00:13 <noidd> yes, bitbake
Jan 26 16:00:30 <noidd> you can find instructions on how to create the build environment on the oe website under Getting Started
Jan 26 16:01:11 <l3010o> so i should know OE first?
Jan 26 16:08:35 <noidd> it would help
Jan 26 16:09:18 <noidd> I'm not saying one method is superior to any other - I'm not expressing any opinion on that matter
Jan 26 16:09:26 <noidd> I'm just says that people should be able to set whatever terms they want
Jan 26 16:09:56 <noidd> and people who say they won't honor those terms because its immoral (or some such other bullshit) should not enter into the agreement at all as opposed to violating it.
Jan 26 16:10:02 <noidd> doing so is *rube*
Jan 26 16:10:07 <noidd> *ruDe*
Jan 26 16:10:48 <mjr> you sound a bit like rms, though not exactly :]
Jan 26 16:11:18 <noidd> that should probably worry me.
Jan 26 16:11:57 <noidd> If you believe that "software should be free" then stick to free software.  DOn't "free" software that the creators did not want to be free.
Jan 26 16:12:08 <noidd> here endeth todays soapbox.  I need some food ;-D
Jan 26 16:12:16 <mjr> (he just thinks violating the agreement would be the lesser evil, but best not to enter into them in the first place)
Jan 26 16:13:33 <noiddGRUB> just don't get me started on fair use ;-D
Jan 26 16:15:58 <alphaone> Wow, I missed it.
Jan 26 16:16:20 <alphaone> I missed the argument and I didn't even have popcorn. Damn
Jan 26 16:19:00 <mjr> poor you
Jan 26 16:19:14 <mjr> but hey, there's a potential flamefest starting on the list
Jan 26 16:39:12 <Morgret> [16:40] <l3010o> XorA, wt's 'nazis'? 
Jan 26 16:39:50 <Morgret> I think that was a reference to debates first referring to Marxists, and then to Nazis, and at that point terminating by Godwin's Law :P
Jan 26 16:42:48 <Morgret> mjr: flamefest still going on?
Jan 26 16:44:18 <buz> posting drivel to the mailinglist is piracy, cause it clogs the tubes you know
Jan 26 17:03:24 <PirateHead> Why are we arguing about marxists and nazis in #openmoko?
Jan 26 17:03:48 <PirateHead> Should we relegate that flame war to ##marxism and ##nazism, respectively? =P
Jan 26 17:07:51 <skome> PirateHead: amen
Jan 26 17:08:12 <Morgret> Oh, it'll get worse.  Code monkeys without code to monkey will argue,  It's a Law of Nature!!! :P
Jan 26 17:08:30 <marcellus> Godwin's Law doesn't terminate anything it just says that the probability of a comparison to Hitler or Nazis approaches 1 as the discussion grows longer.
Jan 26 17:09:16 <Morgret> marcellus: lol, the meta-arguments about Godwins Law are typically even longer than the arguments to which they refer :P:
Jan 26 17:09:48 <marcellus> Frankly that would be far more entertaining than all this GNU/Linux, freedom, WiFi threads.
Jan 26 17:10:14 <Morgret> That's why I'm not reading the ML, marcellus :-(
Jan 26 17:10:24 <Morgret> I just want code. / Nothing else matters
Jan 26 17:10:43 <hrw> I also want phone ;D
Jan 26 17:10:56 <Morgret> Oh, and the phone too :P  Hahaha
Jan 26 17:14:35 <Elrond> I want the gps. ;o)
Jan 26 17:15:17 <marcellus> I wanted a PDA with WiFi and a GPS, but alas. 
Jan 26 17:15:37 <PirateHead> I'm going to need to get some sort of WiFi-to-GPS dongle
Jan 26 17:15:43 <PirateHead> erm
Jan 26 17:15:50 <PirateHead> -to-bluetooth
Jan 26 17:16:54 <Elrond> marcellus - I don't care too much for wifi. I have no wifi I'm caring for.
Jan 26 17:17:50 <marcellus> Think of much could have been accomplished prior to the release if all the time spent on futile discussions of what should have been included had been used for designing applications.
Jan 26 17:17:55 <b_lindeijer> Wiifi?
Jan 26 17:19:44 <b_lindeijer> I don't care much for wifi either. Consumes much more power and usually BlueTooth or GPRS will suit fine I think.
Jan 26 17:20:32 <mjr> for me that's happily the case
Jan 26 17:21:14 <hrw> I need to create BT AP at home
Jan 26 17:22:28 <Elrond> As long, as the usb connection works nicely. :)
Jan 26 17:24:31 <hrw> I do not like usbnetworking
Jan 26 17:25:16 <Elrond> Why? Except it's probably not very efficient?
Jan 26 17:25:17 <SpeedEvil> It was known that wifi would be nice. It diddn't seem to be possible for the first version.
Jan 26 17:25:54 <mjr> well, usbnet is probably faster than bt, but this kind of device doesn't want to be tied down
Jan 26 17:25:59 <dot1> hello
Jan 26 17:26:59 <hrw> usbnet is nice and fast - I just do not like to use cable
Jan 26 17:30:00 <mjr> yeah
Jan 26 17:31:29 <Elrond> hrw - Okay. I'm mostly a cable-lover. ;o)
Jan 26 17:33:34 <hrw> Elrond: I have 4 palmtops on desk, speakers, webpad, printer, monitor, usb hub with bt dongle and card reader, mouse, keyboard, power to webpad cradle, palmtops power supply (just one)
Jan 26 17:33:39 <hrw> too much cables
Jan 26 17:33:55 <hrw> ah.. and two or three usb cables
Jan 26 17:35:34 <Elrond> yikes. Okay. That's too much. :-)
Jan 26 17:35:43 <SpeedEvil> A lot of this would have been resolved if only USB had specified a 'high power' mode - 30V@0.5A as well. A lot of the power supplies for intermediate stuff would just have gone away.
Jan 26 17:35:49 <Elrond> On my current desk: keyboard, mouse, tft. :)
Jan 26 17:36:43 <Elrond> Oh, and usually: my cell phone just lingering around. ;)
Jan 26 17:36:48 <hrw> SpeedEvil: there was PowerUSB specification - few more pins in connector (bit bigger connector but compatible) which had also larger power
Jan 26 17:36:48 <LittleIdiot> beer, math stuff and laptop here ;)
Jan 26 17:37:32 <Elrond> LittleIdiot - Okay... I forgot about the physcis stuff. ;)
Jan 26 17:38:16 <LittleIdiot> by the way - this one can bring beer: http://wiki.das-labor.org/wiki/images/d/d8/Robbi_mit_kaffeetasse.jpg
Jan 26 17:38:34 <LittleIdiot> i just have to add a few more sensors ;)
Jan 26 17:38:59 <SpeedEvil> It wouldn't even need that - just software 'can accept 30V without damage, 'can be powered from 30v' 'uses xxxmA at 30v'
Jan 26 17:39:20 <SpeedEvil> And high power hubs of course.
Jan 26 17:45:32 <buz> mhh can robbi pour beer?
Jan 26 17:46:03 <hrw> SpeedEvil: btw - why 30V? usb is 5V, most of laptops use 15-19V
Jan 26 17:46:22 <buz> 30V seems kinda weird
Jan 26 17:46:26 <buz> nothing in IT really runs on 30v
Jan 26 17:46:33 <Elrond> Didn't firewire have more power?
Jan 26 17:46:40 <buz> unless you need to pump a shitload of power over thin wires of course
Jan 26 17:47:41 <LittleIdiot> currently i've programmed it to accept commands via the serial. i can control it with my cursor keys and move all his body and arms... it has no sensors yet - it currently only knows when a motor is blocked
Jan 26 17:48:05 <LittleIdiot> i'll add some sensors soon and make it find the beer then ;)
Jan 26 17:48:33 <hrw> beer detector
Jan 26 17:50:21 <buz> there must be somethingn like beer detectors in some humans
Jan 26 17:51:02 <LittleIdiot> my idea was to spread a couple of ir-diodes at some fixed points that send signals so it can determine its position
Jan 26 17:51:44 <LittleIdiot> well, the ir-diodes are blinking at different frequencies... simply a ne 555
Jan 26 17:53:19 <PirateHead> if you have a powered USB hub, can you use it to recharge your batteries?
Jan 26 17:53:30 <PirateHead> your Neo battery, that is?
Jan 26 17:53:53 <buz> i think so
Jan 26 17:54:10 <mjr> should be able to
Jan 26 17:56:08 <Elrond> PirateHead - I'd expect that.
Jan 26 17:56:35 <hrw> hi [g2] 
Jan 26 17:56:47 <[g2]> hrw hi!
Jan 26 17:57:28 <PirateHead> That's good then. I'll have to get a few powered USB hubs to put in opportune places
Jan 26 17:57:52 <mjr> PirateHead, there are also USB transformers that go into a wall socket and provide a USB port with power (and only power) for charging things like this
Jan 26 17:58:04 <leventhal> Haha.. that's awesome!
Jan 26 17:58:20 <PirateHead> mjr, link by any chance? or should I google it?
Jan 26 17:58:25 <mjr> if that's all you'd need it for
Jan 26 17:58:28 <buz> tons on ebay
Jan 26 17:58:31 <mjr> I don't have one handy now
Jan 26 17:58:34 <buz> for ipods, moto handies etc
Jan 26 17:58:37 <leventhal> could also be useful to charge USBcells maybe
Jan 26 17:58:45 <buz> some for as little as 1$ and shipping
Jan 26 17:58:46 <leventhal> those AAA and AA batteries that charge over uSB
Jan 26 17:58:58 <PirateHead> I don't want a used one from ebay
Jan 26 17:59:05 <buz> new ones
Jan 26 17:59:06 <Elrond> """
Jan 26 17:59:07 <Elrond> * 1200 mAh battery (charged over USB)
Jan 26 17:59:08 <Elrond> """
Jan 26 17:59:09 <PirateHead> stuff like that, if it's being sold it's probably broken
Jan 26 17:59:28 <PirateHead> you don't just "grow out of" a USB hub
Jan 26 17:59:29 <buz> these are dirt chEAO
Jan 26 17:59:38 <buz> seller makes profit on shipping charges
Jan 26 18:00:33 <rox> good ... a devel list is open
Jan 26 18:00:55 <Elrond> <-- getting home now.
Jan 26 18:04:10 <cbpage> HTC is already using the same usb mini-b
Jan 26 18:07:50 <folken> hello moko world. 
Jan 26 18:07:58 * folken is just looking around. 
Jan 26 18:07:58 <spikebik1> my $70 gps came with a usb charger btw
Jan 26 18:08:45 <stefan_schmidt> welcome folken 
Jan 26 18:12:27 <hrw> hi stefan_schmidt 
Jan 26 18:12:40 <stefan_schmidt> hi hrw 
Jan 26 18:12:56 <folken> thank you stefan. 
Jan 26 18:13:30 * stefan_schmidt thinks it's time to get a better spirit on th irc an ml again. :)
Jan 26 18:13:56 <stefan_schmidt> counter
Jan 26 18:13:56 <aloril> 2 weeks, 1 day 05:15:03 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 26 18:14:08 <xorAxAx> stefan_schmidt: yeah,more alcohol
Jan 26 18:14:28 <stefan_schmidt> hmm, still two weeks. That's too long. :)
Jan 26 18:14:41 <folken> interesting, is openmoko's software entierly based on gpe? 
Jan 26 18:14:49 <stefan_schmidt> xorAxAx: heh
Jan 26 18:15:08 <stefan_schmidt> folken: No. Plain gtk with own widgets
Jan 26 18:15:29 <stefan_schmidt> folken: Of course some inspiration, good and bad, from GPE, OPIE, etc...
Jan 26 18:15:46 <folken> stefan_schmidt: ah, because I though about buying a gsm card for my zaurus... but then i saw openmoko. 
Jan 26 18:16:16 <stefan_schmidt> folken: heh, and you get even gps
Jan 26 18:16:23 <folken> and the mirad of unresolved problems in powermanagment kind of stopped me. 
Jan 26 18:16:43 <folken> stefan_schmidt: sounds really nifty. 
Jan 26 18:17:04 <folken> for years and years i have been frustrated with mobile phones.. 
Jan 26 18:17:23 <stefan_schmidt> folken: yes, I hope it will get great
Jan 26 18:17:48 <folken> You can't even send vcards with umlauts between sony ericcson phones *rolleyes*
Jan 26 18:18:01 <PirateHead> anybody know who the "selected developers" are, and/or how they will be selected?
Jan 26 18:18:14 <folken> and the phone crashes if you get a call with a "picture contact". 
Jan 26 18:18:16 <alphaone> folken: That is about to change. With openmoko you can be frustrated by your inability to fix the issues :-)
Jan 26 18:18:27 <Morgret> stefan_schmidt: thanks for the xoo skin, I'll be using that after I'm reinstalled the dev box as it's a bit long in the tooth.  Looks nice with the Neo background :P
Jan 26 18:18:34 <alphaone> You don't have to blame the phone anymore
Jan 26 18:18:48 <stefan_schmidt> Morgret: heh, np
Jan 26 18:18:49 <folken> alphaone: thats great. :)
Jan 26 18:19:04 <alphaone> Yup I think so, too.
Jan 26 18:19:22 <hrw> PirateHead: selected as phase0 ones?
Jan 26 18:19:26 <folken> but then again, i'd like a _stable_ phone. 
Jan 26 18:19:27 <PirateHead> What's gonna be hilarious is, people will be like "How do I do this? Where is this feature?" and the developers will be like "RTFM and write the patch, noobs."
Jan 26 18:19:33 <PirateHead> hrw: yes, selected as phase 0
Jan 26 18:19:54 <stefan_schmidt> PirateHead: People know for their work in embedded OSS / Openembedded / linux smartphones and of course people who have written to coreteam, explaining why they need one.
Jan 26 18:20:07 <hrw> stefan_schmidt: exactly that
Jan 26 18:20:43 <hrw> PirateHead: and speaking about 'who they are'... if coreteam does not tell then why those who know will tell?
Jan 26 18:20:51 <stefan_schmidt> folken: Starting with the mass market sale, september, there will be stable releases. With _updates_
Jan 26 18:20:52 <Morgret> PirateHead: that would be totally terrific!  Except that the devs needn't get involved in that, or there will be hundreds of them (us) ... we'll be writing a pile of FAQs anyway, no doubt
Jan 26 18:20:59 <hrw> PirateHead: I know two such persons and suspect few other.
Jan 26 18:21:40 <Morgret> This this will be as good (or as bad) as its community.  It's up to us.
Jan 26 18:22:03 <PirateHead> hrw: I'm really interested in developing and testing stuff on the Moko, but I'm poor and I don't work for an OE company. Suppose I have anything to gain if I write to core team?
Jan 26 18:22:50 <stefan_schmidt> PirateHead: If you have a good idea and the skills to do it, I would try it
Jan 26 18:23:04 <hrw> PirateHead: write to them about your skills
Jan 26 18:23:30 <leventhal> an OE company?
Jan 26 18:23:58 <stefan_schmidt> PirateHead: But I would guess that the list for phase0 is more or less done. Anyway, it is worth a try.
Jan 26 18:24:04 <PirateHead> are there companies that devlop for OpenEmbedded?
Jan 26 18:24:11 <PirateHead> or is that pretty much an indie thing up to this point?
Jan 26 18:24:33 <folken> are there any more pictures of the device? 
Jan 26 18:24:38 <Morgret> PirateHead: there is no need to have hardware to test our great ideas.  We just need the official dev framework.  If FIC sent out a phone to everyone with a great idea (I have dozens of them), FIC would go broke PDQ
Jan 26 18:24:40 <hrw> folken: no
Jan 26 18:24:48 <PirateHead> stefan_schmidt: I would also guess that the phase 0 period is closed, but who knows.
Jan 26 18:25:26 <hrw> PirateHead: OpenEmbedded related companies are: Kernel Concepts, OpenedHand, HaeRWu (my own) and few others
Jan 26 18:25:47 <sxpert> how would I request an openmoko developer kit ?
Jan 26 18:26:01 <LittleIdiot> i'd be interested in a evaluation/development board. did you guys buy it directly from meritech?
Jan 26 18:26:09 <PirateHead> Morgret: that's not entirely true. The toolkit for the OpenMoko platform isn't going to be released until you get the hardware.
Jan 26 18:26:13 <hrw> sxpert: wait till 2007.02.11 when it will be available
Jan 26 18:26:13 <Morgret> OpenedHand stuff "just works" ... at least on Gentoo.  I tried everything yesterday, it "just worked" :P
Jan 26 18:26:44 <PirateHead> Morgret: I could write generic apps in C with GTK+ bindings, but no guarentee that that's the best way to actually write apps given the Moko's unknown actual structure.
Jan 26 18:26:49 <hrw> Morgret: 'just worked' or worked?
Jan 26 18:27:14 <Morgret> PirateHead: indeed.  We'll have to wait.  No rush, the phone isn;t out for Mom and Dad until September
Jan 26 18:27:41 <sxpert> hrw, ok.
Jan 26 18:27:48 <Morgret> hrw: compiled and ran.  A pretty good start :P
Jan 26 18:27:54 <hrw> Morgret: yes
Jan 26 18:28:09 * hrw will work for OH soon
Jan 26 18:28:10 <PirateHead> Is there a really good tutorial for getting OpenEmbedded set up on Linux somewhere?
Jan 26 18:28:16 <sxpert> hrw, I'm most interested in integrating Openstreetmap data on the device, and writing software to allow participating
Jan 26 18:28:32 <Morgret> sxpert: seconded
Jan 26 18:28:36 <PirateHead> The one I saw on the OE website's page was a little dodgy.
Jan 26 18:28:49 <cjb> sxpert: oh, that's an awesome project.
Jan 26 18:29:05 <sxpert> cjb, right
Jan 26 18:29:28 <hrw> PirateHead: dodgy?
Jan 26 18:29:46 <noidd> hrw: I saw that
Jan 26 18:29:49 <noidd> congratulations
Jan 26 18:29:55 <hrw> thx noidd 
Jan 26 18:30:01 <Morgret> It'snot that the OE stuff is dodgy.  It's that it supports 10 million platforms.  That's why we need the official OpenMoko-tailored envirionment in practice ... just to make life simpler.
Jan 26 18:30:22 <Morgret> Ouch, lotta typos, sorry
Jan 26 18:30:55 <noidd> we don't need a tailored env really - oe is well suited already I think
Jan 26 18:30:56 <Morgret> noidd: wb
Jan 26 18:31:24 <PirateHead> hrw: it seems that the only way to get bitbake is through svn
Jan 26 18:31:24 <noidd> I do need to decide on native vs emulated for my edit / compile / execute cycle
Jan 26 18:31:28 <hrw> argh.. I just look at gtk2 helloworld.c - this toolkit suxx when compared to Qt
Jan 26 18:31:39 <hrw> PirateHead: ah. I had to push change of it
Jan 26 18:31:51 * noidd respectfully disagrees :-)
Jan 26 18:31:56 <Morgret> noidd: yeah right.  So everyone making slightly different OE builds and then complaining to the ML that they don't work is just what we need.  I don;t think so :P
Jan 26 18:32:16 <noidd> YOu just use different metadata
Jan 26 18:32:27 <noidd> you can switch between distribution metadata at will
Jan 26 18:32:29 <hrw> PirateHead: $ mkdir -p /stuff/build/conf
Jan 26 18:32:29 <hrw> $ cd /stuff/
Jan 26 18:32:32 <hrw> ops
Jan 26 18:32:34 <noidd> OE is basically glorified make
Jan 26 18:32:36 * noidd ducks
Jan 26 18:32:51 <hrw> PirateHead: Obtaining BitBake / Using packages|Using releases|Using Subversion
Jan 26 18:33:08 <noidd> actually, bitbake is glorified make
Jan 26 18:33:26 <noidd> OE is a structure around it with "recipies" similer to portage
Jan 26 18:34:00 <Morgret> It's no different to people buildingf binaries for normal Linux distros.  In theory they all work ... if you get all the libs right, which is impossible because of mutual dependencies.  In practice, you need to know your target.
Jan 26 18:34:26 <noidd> OE takes care of all of that for you.
Jan 26 18:34:45 * noidd just came back from "Hobby Lobby" which is a girly craft store.
Jan 26 18:34:57 <noidd> needed to buy draws for my electrical components
Jan 26 18:35:09 <noidd> damn, the women in there threw themselves at me
Jan 26 18:35:30 <FirefighterBlu3> have at 'em
Jan 26 18:35:34 <Morgret> OE doesn't take care of it all for you unless you know your target.  And that's what I;m saying.  Let there be the official target, and then it's plain sailing
Jan 26 18:35:37 <noidd> that's ok
Jan 26 18:36:11 <noidd> well, there will be something like distribution/openmoko-neo1973
Jan 26 18:36:13 <noidd> at some point
Jan 26 18:36:25 <hrw> Morgret: MACHINE="neo1973" DISTRO="openmoko-someversion" bitbake openmoko-image
Jan 26 18:36:27 <Morgret> noidd: they were trying to save their friends from your sight, very martyrish :P
Jan 26 18:36:34 <noidd> which will contain all the "standard" packages and utilities to built them into a flashable file
Jan 26 18:36:50 <noidd> I'm assumeing the metadata isn't in the main tree yet
Jan 26 18:37:30 <hrw> openmoko metadata will get merged at 2.11 I think
Jan 26 18:37:31 <Morgret> noidd: well that's exactly what I mean.  Once the target is defined, it's all plain sailing.  But we're not at that stage yet
Jan 26 18:37:39 <noidd> sweet
Jan 26 18:38:04 <sxpert> is there some sort of emulator ?
Jan 26 18:38:34 <hrw> sxpert: phone/gps functionality needed in emulator?
Jan 26 18:39:00 <sxpert> well, as long as I can fake it by connecting to gpsd somewhere :D
Jan 26 18:39:11 <hrw> sxpert: qemu then
Jan 26 18:39:17 <sxpert> hmm. kay
Jan 26 18:39:38 <Morgret> I must say, seeing the Neo image in xoo made me smile ... even though there is no substance runnign behing it yet ;-)
Jan 26 18:39:44 <hrw> sxpert: or xoo/xnest and use x86 (or which arch your host machine is) for testing
Jan 26 18:39:54 <sxpert> hrw, ok
Jan 26 18:40:00 <PirateHead> I downloaded Xoo on my laptop and ran it
Jan 26 18:40:12 <PirateHead> but every time I did, everything became unresponsive
Jan 26 18:40:14 <buz> Morgret: be sure to sit 3m from your screen
Jan 26 18:40:20 <buz> to emulate 285dpi ;(
Jan 26 18:40:23 <PirateHead> I'm not sure it was a kernel panic, but it looked sorta like it.
Jan 26 18:40:23 <Morgret> buz: hehehe
Jan 26 18:41:12 <stefan_schmidt> PirateHead: Kernel panic from xoo? I doubt it.
Jan 26 18:41:43 <PirateHead> stefan_schmidt: don't think it was a proper kernel panic. everythign locked up though, no response from keyboard or mouse.
Jan 26 18:42:04 <stefan_schmidt> PirateHead: ouch, which distro?
Jan 26 18:42:11 <buz> sounds like a x lockup
Jan 26 18:42:20 <Morgret> buz: I know I'm in the minority, but I actually wish the Neo was the same size as xoo on a >17" screen.  I have a Nokia Communicator, so I have no hangups about size :P
Jan 26 18:42:30 <sxpert> buz, 285 dpi ?? wow !!!
Jan 26 18:42:50 <buz> Morgret: not sure i understand you point? you want a bigger screen? so do i
Jan 26 18:43:02 <buz> but high dpi is always good
Jan 26 18:43:29 <Morgret> buz: yep, if it doesn't fit in my short pocket, I'll get the tailor to sew a larger pocket ;-)
Jan 26 18:43:44 <PirateHead> stefan_schmidt: Ubuntu Edgy, on old-ish laptop hardware
Jan 26 18:44:08 <Morgret> buz; no, l=higher DPI becomes pointless at fixed distance from the eye.
Jan 26 18:44:21 <buz> yeah
Jan 26 18:44:26 <buz> but thats beyond 300dpi actually
Jan 26 18:44:48 <buz> which is why we have 600dpi lasers these days :)
Jan 26 18:45:02 * noidd has scanning elecron microscopes for eyes
Jan 26 18:45:14 <noidd> I'n very fortunate - my eyes are incredible on small text
Jan 26 18:45:33 <buz> noidd: resolution would be nice but the speed? miserable
Jan 26 18:45:39 <stefan_schmidt> PirateHead: hmm, I would guess ubuntu uses the recompiled debian package, which runs fine here. Had a look at ubuntu bugzilla
Jan 26 18:45:40 <Morgret> Well, I guess there are two thresholds, "informationally pointless" and "artistically pointless".  I agree that displays still improve beyond the infromational 95% point.
Jan 26 18:45:41 <PirateHead> I've never had trouble reading small text, but I still appreciate nice big text.
Jan 26 18:45:49 <sxpert> Morgret, I'd want a 20" 300 ppi monitor :D
Jan 26 18:45:57 <buz> sxpert: sign me up
Jan 26 18:46:00 <Morgret> sxpert: hehe
Jan 26 18:46:01 * hrw has 99/98 dpi monitor
Jan 26 18:46:08 <buz> my laptop has 120dpi
Jan 26 18:46:09 <buz> my 20
Jan 26 18:46:12 <buz> 100
Jan 26 18:46:22 <buz> which is actually kinda weird in twinview
Jan 26 18:46:30 <buz> twinview doesnt seem to grok that
Jan 26 18:47:08 <Morgret> I thinik the Nokia 770 tablet thingie at 30cm beats all those angular res specs to a pulp, no?
Jan 26 18:47:27 <Morgret> Highly over-ressed screen
Jan 26 18:47:51 <noidd> I would guess my laptop is 120dpi too
Jan 26 18:48:07 <noidd> 1600x1200 17.5" display
Jan 26 18:48:28 <buz> mine is 1400*1050 at 12"
Jan 26 18:48:40 <Morgret> noidd: yeah, your lappie was hi-res noidd, I could barely read it 
Jan 26 18:48:52 <SpeedEvil> sqrt(1600^2+1200^2)/17.5
Jan 26 18:48:57 <Morgret> buz: you've got a Tosh M4?
Jan 26 18:48:57 <SpeedEvil> = 114
Jan 26 18:49:04 <buz> m200
Jan 26 18:49:12 <buz> but i never use the tablet these days
Jan 26 18:49:24 <buz> didnt even bother to configure it under linux, really
Jan 26 18:49:25 <Morgret> buz: hehe, close.  I have an M4, amazinfg res
Jan 26 18:49:26 <SpeedEvil> Actually, that makes no sense.
Jan 26 18:49:28 <noidd> I have a different lappy than the one you saw previously
Jan 26 18:49:33 <buz> its still a decent notebook
Jan 26 18:49:34 <noidd> same screen rez tho, 
Jan 26 18:49:37 <buz> could be lower weight
Jan 26 18:49:56 <buz> and a dual core would be nice
Jan 26 18:49:59 <buz> but hey...
Jan 26 18:50:09 <buz> i'll buy a quad notebook when they come ;)
Jan 26 18:50:21 <FirefighterBlu3> dual core is nice, but i don't have a d/c notebook yet
Jan 26 18:50:27 <FirefighterBlu3> just desktop
Jan 26 18:50:31 * SpeedEvil ponders a foldy laptop, with 4 screens that tile.
Jan 26 18:50:34 <noidd> my wife is actualy pissed off because my neo will probably arriive the same weekend as our aniversary
Jan 26 18:50:44 <Morgret> Oh, my Tosh M4 only weighs as much as it does because it contains the hidden mass of the galaxy in Dark Matter.  Hey, someone has to hold it, it's a service.
Jan 26 18:50:50 <buz> noidd: LOL
Jan 26 18:51:08 <noidd> so she thinks I'm going to spend my time flashing it instead of her.
Jan 26 18:51:10 <buz> Morgret: right, can i get paid for doing that?
Jan 26 18:51:30 <FirefighterBlu3> noidd, is she wrong?
Jan 26 18:51:32 <FirefighterBlu3> :)
Jan 26 18:51:40 <noidd> no comment :-P
Jan 26 18:51:47 <FirefighterBlu3> heheheh
Jan 26 18:51:47 <Morgret> buz: leave noidd's wife alone, she;s a lovely gal :-)
Jan 26 18:51:52 * stefan_schmidt have to go. cu later
Jan 26 18:52:20 <noidd> she's in the UK now btw morg
Jan 26 18:52:24 <Morgret> cya ss
Jan 26 18:52:35 <Morgret> noidd: does she want a curry?
Jan 26 18:52:57 <buz> Morgret: i'll leave her alone when i'm finished SCNR ;)
Jan 26 18:52:57 <noidd> is the sky blue?
Jan 26 18:53:05 <Morgret> Hahahaha
Jan 26 18:53:10 <buz> no in fact its gray
Jan 26 18:53:15 <yacc> noidd: How long are you married?
Jan 26 18:53:36 <Morgret> Always grey in UK.  You've been too long in the USA noidd :P
Jan 26 18:53:39 * yacc is lucky, the Neo will probably arrive around his birthday ;)
Jan 26 18:53:50 <ynezz> i wonder if there will be enough phones for phase-1 :)
Jan 26 18:54:21 <SpeedEvil> First come first severed I imagine.
Jan 26 18:54:36 <noidd> well, I dont want to be severed :-)
Jan 26 18:54:45 <ynezz> openmoko mailing list is one of most active next to linux-kernel in my mailbox :)
Jan 26 18:54:57 <Morgret> Somebody ask Sean what the batch sizes are.  100-500 is not untypical for proto run.  But after that the next run is usually umpteen thousands.
Jan 26 18:55:34 <noidd> it shouldn't matter really
Jan 26 18:55:38 <noidd> just get yer order in :-)
Jan 26 18:55:39 <Morgret> So Phase 1 == umpteen thousands
Jan 26 18:56:00 <noidd> I doubt that many will sell in Phase1
Jan 26 18:56:11 <Morgret> In that case we're dead
Jan 26 18:56:15 <ynezz> :)
Jan 26 18:56:17 <noidd> I disagree
Jan 26 18:56:22 <noidd> the sales with come in P2
Jan 26 18:56:27 <SpeedEvil> It depends.
Jan 26 18:56:27 <cbpage> i think a batch of 1000 for phase 1 sounds about right
Jan 26 18:56:29 <noidd> damnit, I'm bleeding
Jan 26 18:56:32 <noidd> sec
Jan 26 18:56:37 <ynezz> just 1000?
Jan 26 18:56:44 <cbpage> at least in march... i think more sales will come over summer
Jan 26 18:56:52 <SpeedEvil> P1, you could get by with 50 or so skilled devs utterly committed to the projet
Jan 26 18:57:08 <cbpage> people with custom apps that can use it will need a few months leadtime... so by late summer/sept they'll buy more for their projects
Jan 26 18:57:15 <SpeedEvil> You're gonna need _lots_ more though, as people won't usually have this much time.
Jan 26 18:57:18 <ynezz> SpeedEvil: thats P0 not?
Jan 26 18:57:24 <SpeedEvil>  /skill
Jan 26 18:57:57 <cbpage> it's got gps, gprs, and usb power support... i'd be shocked if someone didn't use neos for special turnkey apps
Jan 26 18:58:29 <cbpage> rwhitby could chime in on all the stuff people do with nslu2's ;)
Jan 26 18:58:32 <Morgret> If there is no massive wave of FOSS enthusiam in Phase 1, Phase 2 will not even start.  The mobile market is ****SATURATED*** with cellphones.  You need something special to take off with the brand-tied mobile shops.  The Neo will not be special unless we make it so.  And that requires Phase 1 to succeed.
Jan 26 18:58:33 <SpeedEvil> And phone.
Jan 26 18:58:42 <cbpage> yeah
Jan 26 18:59:07 <SpeedEvil> Stick it in a box, and connect a solar panel + anemometer + webcam + ...
Jan 26 18:59:33 <buz> ...and pay thru the nose for gprs...
Jan 26 18:59:40 <buz> ... profit
Jan 26 18:59:57 <SpeedEvil> GPRS isn't horribly bad in some places.
Jan 26 18:59:57 <folken> ah yes.. 10 Cents for 15 kilobytes here.. 
Jan 26 18:59:59 <leventhal> it won't happen, but what would be cool is to get a data plan tied to the phone like sidekick and iphone
Jan 26 19:00:23 <leventhal> or even extensions to use their propritary apns
Jan 26 19:00:29 <prpplague> cbpage: actually my employer is interested in OEM'n the mb and lcd for used in some industrial handheld apps
Jan 26 19:00:37 * folken gets a 2 gigabyte umts/grps/edge flat for around 45.- 
Jan 26 19:00:45 <folken> err $ 45
Jan 26 19:00:54 <Morgret> I've never heard of anything beinf manufactured in a run of 1000.  What is it, a prototype?  (too many)  A toe in the water (far too few).
Jan 26 19:01:00 * leventhal gets $20 for 5mb and $0.03/kb after that
Jan 26 19:01:09 <prpplague> cbpage: unfortunately no one at FIC has responded to our contact attempts
Jan 26 19:01:13 <folken> SpeedEvil: www.traincam.ch (work in progress.) 
Jan 26 19:01:25 <Morgret> Does FIC even exist? :P
Jan 26 19:01:26 <folken> SpeedEvil: -solarpanel. 
Jan 26 19:01:36 <ynezz> what's FIC?
Jan 26 19:01:44 <Morgret> Nobody knows
Jan 26 19:01:45 <FirefighterBlu3> verizon math?
Jan 26 19:01:46 <cbpage> first international computer in taiwan
Jan 26 19:01:56 <cbpage> owned by formosa plastics (hence a sibling company to VIA)
Jan 26 19:02:13 <Morgret> FIC is a 300-strong company in Taiwan that doesn't respond to calls.  Go figure.
Jan 26 19:02:17 <Morgret> 3000
Jan 26 19:02:33 <folken> maybe they are all busy assembling phones.. 
Jan 26 19:02:35 <folken> :)
Jan 26 19:02:35 <Elrond> So this is all a trick to get $350 from us and ship nothing?
Jan 26 19:02:37 <cbpage> i'm just guessing - shawn would know the actual p0 and p1 amounts
Jan 26 19:02:37 <ynezz> :)
Jan 26 19:02:52 <noidd> and the rest
Jan 26 19:02:59 <noidd> FIC has offices all over the world
Jan 26 19:03:10 <noidd> including a mile or so from a friend of mine in Silicon Valley
Jan 26 19:03:21 <buz> fic makes tons of mainboards
Jan 26 19:03:22 <Elrond> noidd - In germany?
Jan 26 19:03:22 <Morgret> Dunno.  But I do know that company liaison could be better :P
Jan 26 19:03:33 <noidd> he says he has the concussion grenades ready on launch day so he can aquire one :-)
Jan 26 19:03:34 <prpplague> amen to that
Jan 26 19:03:38 <folken> phone companies are strange companies anyways. At least they don't care about their customers. 
Jan 26 19:03:56 <ynezz> that's true everywhere
Jan 26 19:04:31 <Elrond> folken - Most big comps do not care. That's why I ended here, although I don't really need a free phone ;)
Jan 26 19:04:54 <FirefighterBlu3> i am entirely happy to purchase the neo
Jan 26 19:05:02 <folken> Elrond: heh, well I'm willing to pay for a _free_ phone. :)
Jan 26 19:05:10 <FirefighterBlu3> i just want a phone that -works-  compared to all the other vendors products which SUCK
Jan 26 19:05:14 <FirefighterBlu3> especially windows based phones
Jan 26 19:05:19 <folken> oh yes.. 
Jan 26 19:05:45 <folken> but then again that is dependent on the exposure of the platform. 
Jan 26 19:05:54 <SpeedEvil> Hmm - orange - 'all you can eat' off-peak internet, 75 quid a month. (GPRS)
Jan 26 19:06:14 <ynezz> i myself don't take neo as phone but more as pda
Jan 26 19:06:19 <Morgret> Elrond: now that you mention it ... since the Neo will only be available by international mail order, and we've not heard from FIC as such yet, and if nothing arrives in the post then we have no recourse of any kind ... it's looking a bit odd.
Jan 26 19:06:20 <Elrond> I am willing to pay, if I can have it in my hand before and see, if it feels good. (Yes, I'm old-fashioned in that). Or a money back guarantee. ;)
Jan 26 19:06:21 <folken> SpeedEvil: quid? 
Jan 26 19:06:29 <folken> SpeedEvil: USD? 
Jan 26 19:06:39 <cjb> GBP.
Jan 26 19:06:47 <folken> ah thx. :)
Jan 26 19:07:12 * folken isn't up-to-date on 'foreign' currency slang. 
Jan 26 19:07:55 <folken> ynezz: zaur(i)us is a pretty decent linux pda. 
Jan 26 19:07:55 <Elrond> Morgret - Right... I'd rather like to purchase from a .de thingy. Here we even have a money back, if you send the thing back within 2 weeks. :)
Jan 26 19:08:06 <ynezz> folken: without phone :)
Jan 26 19:08:15 <folken> ynezz: true true.  :)
Jan 26 19:08:17 <Morgret> If we hear of friends receiving their Neo's though, that will inspire confidence.
Jan 26 19:08:46 <Elrond> Morgret - They're just playing with you then. ;o)
Jan 26 19:08:55 <noidd> Morg: there will be a UK reseller
Jan 26 19:08:59 <folken> ynezz: but perfect for completing monkey island on scummvm during military service. 
Jan 26 19:09:00 <noidd> FIC as a huge distribution network.  You won't need to be concerned
Jan 26 19:09:14 <ynezz> i don't think, that friends owning n73 and similar will ever buy neo 
Jan 26 19:09:56 <Elrond> noidd - Will that reseller be available from 03-11?
Jan 26 19:10:03 <folken> but the n73 aims to be a surf tool.. not so much communication. 
Jan 26 19:10:12 <folken> buy a tablet and a moko. :)
Jan 26 19:10:13 <noidd> that I do not know.
Jan 26 19:10:27 <noidd> I saw Sean talk about there being at least one in EU in March
Jan 26 19:10:39 <ynezz> nice
Jan 26 19:10:50 <noidd> I'm guessing there will be one in the US too
Jan 26 19:11:02 <noidd> but Sept they'll be everywhere of course.
Jan 26 19:11:07 <noidd> counter
Jan 26 19:11:07 <aloril> 2 weeks, 1 day 04:17:51 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 6 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 3 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 26 19:11:22 <Elrond> Okay, one in eu is already better....
Jan 26 19:11:27 <snatches> hey, do you have to be a registered developer to get into the wiki.openmoko.org site?
Jan 26 19:11:43 <noidd> snatches: It will open in 2 weeks, 1 day
Jan 26 19:11:50 <ynezz> :)
Jan 26 19:12:04 <snatches> ok, i'm not crazy then.  well, not too crazy anyways
Jan 26 19:12:05 <Morgret> folken: I have a tablet, just need the Moko :P
Jan 26 19:12:34 <folken> Morgret: i also run a tablet laptop. an acer unfortunatly. 
Jan 26 19:13:45 <PirateHead> are acers any good? They sure advertise a lot.
Jan 26 19:13:46 <Morgret> noidd: no, Sept is too late.  Sept is for mom and dad .. but they won't buy a moko unless we've made it special!  After all, it's just another phone as far as they're concerned.
Jan 26 19:14:14 <Morgret> And lemme reiterate:  the mobile phone market is **SATURATED**
Jan 26 19:14:35 <PirateHead> Morgret: just a sexy-lookin' phone.
Jan 26 19:14:35 <ajturner> Morgret - the digital music player was 'saturated' when the ipod came out ;)
Jan 26 19:14:51 <Morgret> ajturner: Apple has hype.  PIC doesn't
Jan 26 19:14:59 <Morgret> FiC
Jan 26 19:15:03 <Morgret> FIC
Jan 26 19:15:05 <Morgret> lol
Jan 26 19:15:11 <ajturner> well, more so apple has a large marketing dept ;)
Jan 26 19:15:12 <folken> Morgret: i'd gladly switch my sony ericsson for an openmoko. :)
Jan 26 19:15:38 <Morgret> folken: me too.  But I'm a techie.  Mon and dad aren't
Jan 26 19:15:53 <snatches> iPhone only has like 4-5GB of storage on it though, doesn't it?  why would I trade in my phone for less than my ipod?
Jan 26 19:15:56 <hrw> folken: which SE?
Jan 26 19:16:03 <ajturner> what will be interesting is that for every comment about the iPhone people say "its so expensive & closed", OpenMoko can say... 'hey, over here, lookee this'
Jan 26 19:16:21 <folken> Morgret: true, but i hope that the basic functionality doesn't require a techy to operate. 
Jan 26 19:16:40 <folken> hrw: se k600i
Jan 26 19:16:51 <hrw> folken: se k750i here
Jan 26 19:17:08 <Morgret> folken: unless you gibe them a moko as a present, they'll buy whatever the salesperson recommends.
Jan 26 19:17:19 <Morgret> s/gibe/give/
Jan 26 19:17:20 <apt> Morgret meant: folken: unless you give them a moko as a present, they'll buy whatever the salesperson recommends.
Jan 26 19:17:41 <noidd> apt: botsnack
Jan 26 19:17:42 <apt> thanks, noidd
Jan 26 19:18:19 <folken> Morgret: probably true. but if you can convince the mass market, that $u-tube runs great on openmoko..
Jan 26 19:19:21 <Morgret> So either we deliver some outragiously sexy apps (and it's reviewers than create the "sexy" hype), or it's just another phone, with the salespersons won;t sell unless FIC has bribed them more than Nokia and Motorola have .. which they won't.
Jan 26 19:21:02 <folken> hrw: i had the 750 before the 600, i primarly bought them because they support bluetooth syncing via irmc. 
Jan 26 19:21:17 <hrw> folken: k750i have it 
Jan 26 19:21:33 <hrw> but opensync suxx when last time I tried it
Jan 26 19:21:35 <Elrond> Well, if fic continues to produce / support it for th niche. I'd be happy too. :)
Jan 26 19:21:57 <folken> hrw: and i love the serial port, i have bluetooth script that dials my phone via bluetooth from bash shell. 
Jan 26 19:22:18 <Morgret> Well we wouldn't be here if the Neo had no Bluetooth.  It wouldn't even be in the 2007 ballpark.
Jan 26 19:23:11 <folken> hrw: yes it does.. i use multisync, and its a pain. Severaltimes it duplicated all my contacts. 
Jan 26 19:23:32 <hrw> folken: what about adding all empty ones?
Jan 26 19:23:45 <folken> hrw: so far that didn't happen. 
Jan 26 19:24:24 <Morgret> Well we have two options.  Fix opensync, or write a new one for OM
Jan 26 19:24:28 <folken> i'd love to have simple storage access to all the vcards..
Jan 26 19:24:51 <folken> Morgret: yep, well need to fix opensync.. 
Jan 26 19:25:04 <Morgret> folken: best
Jan 26 19:25:13 <folken> Morgret: but as far as i can see, it seems to be happening.. 
Jan 26 19:27:39 <folken> I'd like it though if opensync took the approach of isync, where they list the mobile phones that are supported and add easy profiles to their sync software. 
Jan 26 19:45:51 <leventhal> greeting torontonian
Jan 26 20:17:21 <koen> OMG DEVEL-LIST!!!!
Jan 26 20:18:26 <cbpage> :)
Jan 26 20:19:43 * koen cancels subscription to OMG-GNU-WIFI-morons@openmoko.org
Jan 26 20:19:53 <hrw> lame
Jan 26 20:19:56 <hrw> kOEn ;D
Jan 26 20:20:57 <prpplague> hehe
Jan 26 20:22:23 <alphaone> heh :-)
Jan 26 20:22:24 <alphaone> nice
Jan 26 20:24:28 <cbpage> can people get kicked off of -devel for being that lame?
Jan 26 20:25:22 <koen> cbpage: I sure hope so
Jan 26 20:25:23 <prpplague> cbpage: i'm sure being that lame has its own punishments
Jan 26 20:26:10 <Sketch> unfortunately the punishments are more often for those around them
Jan 26 20:26:27 <Sketch> in havign to put up with their lameness
Jan 26 20:34:25 <SpeedEvil> Is there any way to convince the mailing list software to send you last weeks mail messages?
Jan 26 20:34:34 <SpeedEvil> If you've just subscribed.
Jan 26 20:36:20 <leventhal> A way to easily filter the mailing list would be nice too
Jan 26 20:36:53 <xorAxAx> leventhal: gmane, NUA
Jan 26 20:36:59 <xorAxAx> you dont need more than that
Jan 26 20:37:03 <leventhal> hm?
Jan 26 20:37:06 <xorAxAx> every NUA has an ignore thread option
Jan 26 20:37:14 <Psi_> maybe just add a 3rd list,  for basic questions
Jan 26 20:37:32 <xorAxAx> leventhal: http://www.gmane.org/
Jan 26 20:37:42 <xorAxAx> leventhal: NUA is a news user agent
Jan 26 20:37:53 <SpeedEvil> The easy way to solve it is a list for stupid questions and flames :)
Jan 26 20:38:03 <leventhal> Ohh.. cool. I was just hoping to filter the lists into separate inbox folders.
Jan 26 20:38:16 <Morgret> Although it says "Developer Lounge" in the title, this will never be the dev hangout simply because it's the natural place for everyone to come ... need two #channels minimum, with a strict tech-only charter on the dev one.  Same for MLs
Jan 26 20:38:39 <xorAxAx> Morgret: currently there are no devs yet, so its fine
Jan 26 20:38:46 <leventhal> Looks like I can filter on To: or X-Been-There
Jan 26 20:39:03 <Morgret> xorAxAx: yeah.  Currently we're all handwaving, impatiently :P
Jan 26 20:39:33 * greggles waves hands impatiently
Jan 26 20:39:34 <xorAxAx> there is a new mailinglist
Jan 26 20:39:40 <Morgret> lol
Jan 26 20:39:47 <newmedian> Would be nice to avoid a rush on sale day. A pre-order for the phone would be great.
Jan 26 20:39:56 <Morgret> true
Jan 26 20:40:04 <greggles> Morgret: apparently it's just some of us, but yeah
Jan 26 20:40:13 * newmedian imagines the ecommerce mechanism will be jammed up
Jan 26 20:40:30 <greggles> speaking of pre-order, I'm basically planning on buying as many as my credit card will let me - is that wrong?
Jan 26 20:40:51 <Morgret> Preorder would also help FIC adjust to order volume, wether low or high
Jan 26 20:41:00 <xorAxAx> i cantfind the flame thread
Jan 26 20:41:02 <SpeedEvil> I doubt it.
Jan 26 20:41:07 <xorAxAx> are the trolls too dumb to change the subject?
Jan 26 20:41:21 <Morgret> trolls are always dumb
Jan 26 20:41:28 <newmedian> If there's adequate volume, then I imagine multiples would be fine. 
Jan 26 20:41:29 <SpeedEvil> They are going to have to probably have committed to a volume by now I'd imagine.
Jan 26 20:42:12 <xorAxAx> how is it called?
Jan 26 20:43:33 <xorAxAx> ah, the marcus-subthread
Jan 26 20:44:30 <greggles> SpeedEvil: newmedian: that's my question - is the dev release limited volume?
Jan 26 20:44:51 <Morgret> Well that's why preorder is important.  Tooling up production lines is *EXPENSIVE*.  There will be physical changes between Phase1 and Phase2 production runs (it would be a miracle if not), so they need to know the numbers for Phase 1.
Jan 26 20:45:02 <FirefighterBlu3> that seems to be implied for the first round.  i.e. "selected developers"
Jan 26 20:45:11 <FirefighterBlu3> the second round is entirely vague
Jan 26 20:45:12 <newmedian> sorry, I don't know. But I imagine they're gearing up for the public round of sales (September was it?)
Jan 26 20:45:21 <Morgret> That's Phase 2
Jan 26 20:46:10 <Morgret> Phase 2 entails large numbers.  Phase 1 is the germ-seed ... the time where the enthusiasts can make this thing fly.  or not.
Jan 26 20:46:34 <FirefighterBlu3> pigs on bricks can fly with sufficient thrust
Jan 26 20:46:54 <newmedian> But the tech specs on second version are still.. indeterminate, I imagine. (WiFi?)
Jan 26 20:47:43 <Elrond> Will the retail thing in Sept. be also at $350?
Jan 26 20:47:49 <Morgret> Phase 2 is dead if Phase 1 doesn't succeed, because the Neo will just be yet another ordinary phone without something special happening in Phase 1.  And there are 10 gazzilion ordinary mobile phones out there.  Market is saturated.
Jan 26 20:48:08 <Morgret> It's up to us in Phase 1.
Jan 26 20:49:03 <FirefighterBlu3> actually there are a lot of fancy phones out there but vendors have disabled a lot of gadgetry :(  OM is one of the first phones with nearly all the gadgetry exposed :-D  and that the software is entirely accessible makes me drool
Jan 26 20:49:18 <leventhal> FirefighterBlu3: Amen
Jan 26 20:49:28 <leventhal> I'm sick of providers advertising features for phones and then disabling them
Jan 26 20:49:45 <newmedian> (which is more prevalent in the U.S.)
Jan 26 20:49:58 <Morgret> Yep, makes me drool as well.  But makes my mom and dad look at me blankly.  And the success of Neo depends not on me but on them.
Jan 26 20:49:59 <SpeedEvil> UK too.
Jan 26 20:50:22 <FirefighterBlu3> i badly want a phone that i can do things like asterisk w/, ie. only allowing certain callers at certain times, and selective straight-to-voicemail etc or flat out immediate goodbye-i-don't-want-to-talk-to-you
Jan 26 20:50:23 <SpeedEvil> 'Take photos and print them out on any bluetooth printer'
Jan 26 20:50:34 <FirefighterBlu3> i.e. iptables-neo
Jan 26 20:50:41 <noidd> porting cups would be overkill :-P
Jan 26 20:50:51 <hrw> porting?
Jan 26 20:50:52 <FirefighterBlu3> -s ex-bf -j TARPIT
Jan 26 20:50:56 <Morgret> Phase 2 belongs to Mom and Dad, as FIC have said.  It doesn't matter what turns *us* on.
Jan 26 20:51:02 <SpeedEvil> That is nice. Caller-ID + actually being able to talk to the phone.
Jan 26 20:51:13 <SpeedEvil> That is nice. Caller-ID + actually being able to talk on  the phone with an app.
Jan 26 20:51:15 <koen> porting?
Jan 26 20:51:19 <FirefighterBlu3> aye
Jan 26 20:51:20 <koen> PORTING?
Jan 26 20:51:24 <koen> PORTING?!?!?!??!?!
Jan 26 20:51:27 <noidd> ok
Jan 26 20:51:31 <noidd> cross-compiling :-P
Jan 26 20:51:36 <koen> 'bibtake cups'
Jan 26 20:51:38 <koen> ehm
Jan 26 20:51:39 <koen> bitbake
Jan 26 20:51:44 <noidd> oh, its in there already
Jan 26 20:51:46 <noidd> cool :-P
Jan 26 20:52:01 <Elrond> *G*
Jan 26 20:52:10 <noidd> Unlike Koen, I don't have the entire OE manifest memorized :-D
Jan 26 20:52:19 <newmedian> Dual SIM would be nice.
Jan 26 20:52:24 <koen> nah, I worked on cups a while ago
Jan 26 20:52:27 <SpeedEvil> It would be nice if there was decent voice recognition on linux.
Jan 26 20:52:46 <noidd> koen: do you know who took over the perl recipies in OE from the work I did?
Jan 26 20:52:46 <koen> http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/repo/?action=details&pnm=cups
Jan 26 20:52:50 <SpeedEvil> Voice message -> text would be nice.
Jan 26 20:52:57 <koen> noidd: jamie 'v8jlene' lenehan
Jan 26 20:53:08 <newmedian> On the reverse side of the coin, I suppose Festival will work.
Jan 26 20:53:16 <hrw> perl packaging suxx
Jan 26 20:53:27 <hrw> 890 packages...
Jan 26 20:53:31 <noidd> !!
Jan 26 20:53:34 <koen> newmedian: flite
Jan 26 20:53:35 <noidd> seriously?
Jan 26 20:53:41 <newmedian> ahh. 
Jan 26 20:53:42 <hrw> each module == package
Jan 26 20:53:55 <noidd> He port all of cpan?
Jan 26 20:54:06 <noidd> or each module in base?
Jan 26 20:54:13 <noidd> there can't be 890 modules in base
Jan 26 20:54:16 <noidd> shurely
Jan 26 20:54:38 <SpeedEvil> That's why you need the 8Gb card :)
Jan 26 20:54:47 <hrw> ~855 in base iirc
Jan 26 20:55:03 <hrw> or atleast 855 in OZ feed
Jan 26 20:55:12 <hrw> k. back to movie
Jan 26 20:55:13 <noidd> I can guess why he did that
Jan 26 20:55:24 <noidd> but i'm wondering if the medicine isn't worse than the cure.
Jan 26 20:56:15 <mickeyl> guys have requested me to do the same
Jan 26 20:56:18 <mickeyl> for python
Jan 26 20:56:21 <mickeyl> but i refused
Jan 26 20:56:36 <mickeyl> although my packaging is not perfect, handcrafted packaging is still more sane than one package per module
Jan 26 20:56:50 <mickeyl> and i took quite a lot of thought into the python packages
Jan 26 20:56:51 <noidd> Well, the perl buld process I think has 20 optional modules
Jan 26 20:56:57 <noidd> which default to yes
Jan 26 20:57:14 <noidd> I'm leaning towards your leaning mickeyl
Jan 26 20:57:15 * newmedian muses voice recognition -> machine translation (with commonly used crib sheet) -> flite TTS or compressed audio snippets == near-time language translation? Hmmm
Jan 26 20:57:26 <noidd> I really don't want to deal with that much meta-data
Jan 26 20:57:43 <Morgret> Apply JIT guys.  Porting the whole world to OM is not necessary.
Jan 26 20:57:57 <noidd> I'm going to look at the perl sources
Jan 26 20:58:00 <SpeedEvil> Google-earth!
Jan 26 20:58:03 <noidd> 855 looks way too obscene
Jan 26 20:58:03 <SpeedEvil> (joke)
Jan 26 20:58:34 <noidd> I wonder what would be an acceptable size for an interpreted lanugage to be considered for inclusion in default
Jan 26 20:58:38 <Morgret> SpeedEvil: that's not enough.  I think all of Google should run on OM.
Jan 26 20:58:50 <noidd> Well, it depends on use I guess
Jan 26 20:58:51 <noidd> wierd
Jan 26 20:58:59 <koen> noidd: what makes you think 'size' is an deciding factor?
Jan 26 20:59:02 <noidd> back in a bit - I need to look at this.
Jan 26 20:59:17 <Morgret> While we're at it, of course OM should run Vista under Xen.  Alternatively, we could be sane.
Jan 26 20:59:21 <noidd> Its one factor of many
Jan 26 20:59:35 <newmedian> IMAP4 IDLE would be nice if supported in the default email client. Not too many phones are supporting the faux push email at the moment.
Jan 26 20:59:55 <noidd> its an issue for me.  I'm not going to put a 50Mb perl distro on my own phone regardless
Jan 26 21:00:00 <FirefighterBlu3> idle would be excellent, it would increase battery life
Jan 26 21:00:25 <noidd> it really should be called NOOP support as idle infers being.
Jan 26 21:00:26 <noidd> erm
Jan 26 21:00:30 <noidd> idle
Jan 26 21:00:30 <noidd> :-)
Jan 26 21:00:34 <FirefighterBlu3> :)
Jan 26 21:00:43 <Elrond> hihi ;)
Jan 26 21:00:49 <FirefighterBlu3> 'lo
Jan 26 21:00:57 <Elrond> noidd - So you want java? ;o)
Jan 26 21:01:05 <Elrond> ... as scripting language. ;)
Jan 26 21:01:21 <Morgret> I sometimes wonder if people realize that an S2C2410 is actually more in its element running a washing machine.  We need to optimize.
Jan 26 21:01:57 * mickeyl nods to Morgret
Jan 26 21:02:04 <Elrond> Morgret - It doesn't have an fpu, right?
Jan 26 21:02:29 <SpeedEvil> IMO, think P100. It's a powerful machine - but not like a desktop of today.
Jan 26 21:02:30 <Elrond> mickeyl - BTW: Is all the audio going through the CPU for an active call?
Jan 26 21:02:37 <FirefighterBlu3> elrond, no.  it does verizon math
Jan 26 21:02:44 <greentux> ~ibot
Jan 26 21:02:45 <apt> i heard ibot is a blootbot written in perl run by TimRiker on his server. logs on http://ibot.rikers.org/<chan>/ , ibot, jbot, apt are all the same process. It uses sqlite, but mysql or other SQL storage is also supported.
Jan 26 21:02:48 <mickeyl> Elrond: no, that'd be too slow
Jan 26 21:02:54 <mickeyl> audio is coming from ti module via analog
Jan 26 21:03:03 <mickeyl> we route it with the codec mixer to the output
Jan 26 21:03:24 <Elrond> mickeyl - Ahh, and the other way? (mic -> ? -> gsm)
Jan 26 21:03:33 <mickeyl> same way
Jan 26 21:03:43 <mickeyl> which doesn't mean we couldn't intercept if we wanted to
Jan 26 21:03:53 <greentux> newmedian:  imap idle should be not a problem. i try a imap idle mail notifier via jabber (based on jmc)
Jan 26 21:03:56 <newmedian> But the audio going to the output can be monitored and recorded?  [Not every country needs that annoying beep during record]
Jan 26 21:03:58 <mickeyl> would need an additional DA AD turnaround though
Jan 26 21:04:08 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jan 26 21:04:16 <Elrond> So we could apply filters. ;o)
Jan 26 21:04:21 <mickeyl> in theory
Jan 26 21:04:28 * mickeyl hints at the SoC again :)
Jan 26 21:04:30 <noidd> so its not possible for the OS to be able to intercept the audio?
Jan 26 21:04:31 <Elrond> Yeah. Modulo cpu speed. :)
Jan 26 21:04:43 <newmedian> great, greentux 
Jan 26 21:04:48 <mickeyl> noidd: you can, but it will introduce a lot of latency
Jan 26 21:04:53 <Elrond> noidd - The OS can intercept it. Read again. :)
Jan 26 21:04:55 <mickeyl> you can record and playback what you like though
Jan 26 21:05:06 <noidd> Ok, but for a call screening process that wouldn't actually matter
Jan 26 21:05:13 <noidd> sweet
Jan 26 21:05:15 <noidd> good news.
Jan 26 21:05:31 <mickeyl> you need to pester XorA to make all that sweet stuff happening ;)
Jan 26 21:05:41 <newmedian> (I expect I'll hear next that Asterisk is running on it. ;) )
Jan 26 21:05:41 <mickeyl> the wolfson codecs wizard
Jan 26 21:06:24 <Elrond> noidd - It means, that we can disable the mic ---> gsm line, while no call is on. :)
Jan 26 21:07:45 <greentux> one of th etwo wolfson wizards :)
Jan 26 21:08:43 <noidd> thank you FBI/NSA
Jan 26 21:09:00 <Elrond> Huh?
Jan 26 21:10:01 <Elrond> So, what's left: Power analysis of the gsm chip. ;)
Jan 26 21:10:01 <newmedian> Yes, speaking as a Canadian, that turning on the Mic thing from remote sounds... unpleasant... in commercial cell phones.
Jan 26 21:10:40 <Elrond> newmedian - Right. That's, why it's good, that we can feed the gsm chip with some noise. ;o)
Jan 26 21:10:53 * greentux reads the limo whitepaper... oh gtk+ again... looks like no qtopia on the phones
Jan 26 21:11:41 <mickeyl> greentux: no matter how superior Qt may be, the vendors what a) dropping license costs and b) total control
Jan 26 21:11:46 <mickeyl> s/what/want/
Jan 26 21:11:47 <apt> mickeyl meant: greentux: no matter how superior Qt may be, the vendors want a) dropping license costs and b) total control
Jan 26 21:12:02 <mickeyl> i think that's why Gtk+ gained such a popularity
Jan 26 21:12:15 <mickeyl> i could be wrong though
Jan 26 21:12:34 <hrw|tv> gtk helloworld suxx anyway
Jan 26 21:12:38 <so_solid_moo> I think Qt not being free multiplatform didn't help
Jan 26 21:12:45 <newmedian> Is there going to be any ZRTP (or SRTP) for the VOIP?   Aside from a bit of latency, do you think it's fast enough to do audio stream encryption over standard GSM (not VOIP data)?
Jan 26 21:12:45 <mickeyl> ya
Jan 26 21:13:03 <SpeedEvil> It has a 2Gb card.
Jan 26 21:13:11 <SpeedEvil> That is enough for days of one-time pad.
Jan 26 21:13:19 <greentux> mickeyl:  have you something to do with limo too?
Jan 26 21:13:27 <noidd> mickeyl: there are 36 modules in perl base distro
Jan 26 21:13:48 <noidd> back in another 10 mins
Jan 26 21:13:55 <cying> ewww C++
Jan 26 21:14:23 <greentux> newmedian:  over standard gsm? how?
Jan 26 21:14:25 <mickeyl> greentux: no. OpenMoko Inc. tried to stay away from consortiums until they have something releaseable. They are more into running code than API documents, framework manifests and what not...
Jan 26 21:14:29 <Elrond> newmedian - A P100... hmm, it would give some latency, but I think, (z/s)rtp might work.  I have no idea, if we can feed the gsm chip with pre-gsm-compressed (and encrypted) data.
Jan 26 21:14:46 <mickeyl> greentux: that could change once there is a release out though
Jan 26 21:15:27 <greentux> mickeyl:  how owns openmoko inc.?? wondering...
Jan 26 21:15:30 <newmedian> It would be nice to have encrypted VOIP.   On the GSM side I mean re-routing the audio through an encryption algo so that you're running an encrypted conversation through a standard audio call, not a data call ($$$)
Jan 26 21:15:38 <FirefighterBlu3> does anyone know of any imap servers that can do notifies via sms?
Jan 26 21:16:10 <greentux> s/how/who
Jan 26 21:16:12 <Morgret> The Qt issue is simple.  Trolltech's licensing conditions are slightly "problematic" (ie. cost a bit of money) if the dev is done by a company.  In contrast, Qt costs nothing if done by non-business peeps.  The obvious answer is for neo to launch without Qt, and for the community to add it.
Jan 26 21:16:32 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: are you thinking of "push email"?
Jan 26 21:16:34 <greentux> newmedian:  you need a data channel vor voip
Jan 26 21:16:37 <mickeyl> greentux: it is my understanding that atm. FIC is 100% owner
Jan 26 21:16:51 <mickeyl> greentux: china is far away though ;)
Jan 26 21:16:55 <greentux> mickeyl:  aaaah ok.
Jan 26 21:17:08 <FirefighterBlu3> larstobi, i'm thinking non-microsoft support for this "push email" idea
Jan 26 21:17:27 <newmedian> greentux, yes, I was actually talking about two things at once. ;)   Data channel for VOIP (pref. Z/SRTP), and Audio Channel for regular cell calls.
Jan 26 21:17:29 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: then the IMAP has a better solution for you; the IDLE command
Jan 26 21:17:30 <FirefighterBlu3> i hate to call it push email because i don't really feel the term is accurate
Jan 26 21:17:42 <FirefighterBlu3> i'm quite familiar with IDLE
Jan 26 21:17:53 <larstobi> but you don't want to be connected all the time?
Jan 26 21:18:02 <FirefighterBlu3> my point is to tell the imap server to send sms notifies for new mail
Jan 26 21:18:23 <greentux> newmedian:  then you have look for the right codecs. gsm csd is 9600bit/s... crypted etc. You can try a 2400bit/s codec
Jan 26 21:18:30 <FirefighterBlu3> right, i want the phone to physically stay idle until an sms arrives and then it can poll the mail server
Jan 26 21:18:42 <FirefighterBlu3> battery saving 'n all
Jan 26 21:18:46 <larstobi> I see
Jan 26 21:18:52 <Elrond> newmedian - data for voip with srtp should work, I think. Main iussue is probably the audio codec. I have no idea, if speex works in realtime on such a "slow" cpu.
Jan 26 21:19:36 <greentux> forget the grps data channel. to much latency
Jan 26 21:19:44 <newmedian> Elrond, greentux, thanks
Jan 26 21:20:01 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: I'm not certain that implementing SMS notify on the IMAP server is the appropriate solution. Perhaps having an IMAP client monitor the account with IDLE and send SMS when it gets a new mail?
Jan 26 21:20:05 <ynezz> FirefighterBlu3: you can send this sms through procmail/sendmail...
Jan 26 21:20:20 <Elrond> sppex is quite nice on the desktop though. :-)
Jan 26 21:20:50 <FirefighterBlu3> ynezz, yes, but i'd like this feature to be usable by mom and grandpa as well as myself, they usually don't grok procmail
Jan 26 21:21:14 <Morgret> Bah, you picked the wrong mom and dad ;-0
Jan 26 21:21:25 <Morgret> You're right :P
Jan 26 21:21:35 <FirefighterBlu3> heheh
Jan 26 21:22:08 <Elrond> I'll try to get my mom/dad to give me a OM for birthday ;o)
Jan 26 21:23:03 <FirefighterBlu3> http://www.isode.com/whitepapers/imap-idle.html
Jan 26 21:23:39 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: are you going to run the IMAP server yourself?
Jan 26 21:23:55 <FirefighterBlu3> i do run my own imap server, yes
Jan 26 21:24:05 <larstobi> I mean for you parents
Jan 26 21:24:20 <FirefighterBlu3> i do for some of my relatives
Jan 26 21:24:22 <FirefighterBlu3> not all
Jan 26 21:24:23 * mickeyl stops working to relax a bit
Jan 26 21:24:25 <mickeyl> c'ya guys
Jan 26 21:24:28 <FirefighterBlu3> ciao
Jan 26 21:24:30 <Morgret> Seriously ... we'll be buying OMs for mom and dad and everyone else on the Xmas list.  But they won't thank us for it if it's crap, by THEIR definition/reqs.  It's up to us.
Jan 26 21:24:42 * CM finally got xoo working
Jan 26 21:24:58 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: do they use webmail or your usual Lookout/Thunderbird IMAP client?
Jan 26 21:25:20 <FirefighterBlu3> they use webmail, thunderbird, and their phone depending on who they are
Jan 26 21:26:08 <larstobi> ok, for webmail, it's as easy as creating a pre-made rule for generating a procmail/Sieve-rule that sends info to an SMS app
Jan 26 21:26:16 <FirefighterBlu3> i can do the sms on my server, that's not a problem.  but i'm getting the feeling that there will be an "industry" use of sms notifies since windows phones already support it
Jan 26 21:26:21 <larstobi> It's really easy to do with Horde Ingo
Jan 26 21:26:27 <FirefighterBlu3> yes, i know.  i write email software :)
Jan 26 21:26:46 <FirefighterBlu3> the phone has to support it too
Jan 26 21:26:53 <larstobi> and they can just do a checkbox to enable it
Jan 26 21:27:08 <FirefighterBlu3> with windows phones and exchange, that checkbox already exists
Jan 26 21:27:17 <Elrond> Morgret - Yep. They will cry "What's that? I can't even handle the VCR, what shgould I do with that phnine without keys?" ;o)
Jan 26 21:27:23 <larstobi> okay...I don't know what kind of protocol they use for that
Jan 26 21:28:15 <Morgret> Yep.  OM needs an extremely simple front end with nice eye candy and VERY simple controls.  The back end that turns us on needs to be completely invisible.
Jan 26 21:28:17 <larstobi> but doing sieveshell on the phone and the notify extension seems like a viable alternative for you
Jan 26 21:28:35 <larstobi> if you run Cyrus IMAP you can have a Sieve server on port 2000
Jan 26 21:28:59 <larstobi> that will make it easy to do a checkbox on the phone
Jan 26 21:29:05 <Elrond> Morgret - Yep. My mom can't even handle the sms she gets. ;)
Jan 26 21:29:23 <FirefighterBlu3> i'll probably submit a patch to dovecot for it once i can nail down the protocol
Jan 26 21:29:39 <larstobi> which protocol?
Jan 26 21:29:52 <FirefighterBlu3> the phone should be capable of telling the imap server what sms addr to use to notify it, to "push" email notifications
Jan 26 21:30:11 <FirefighterBlu3> the concept/protocol that is already used such as for m$
Jan 26 21:30:26 <Morgret> It's sad, but that's life.  And if we want Neo to succeed for OUR benefit, then it has to make money off Mom and Dad .. and that's an entirely different spec.  Forget us (for now).  We need to focus on them, come September.
Jan 26 21:30:46 <ninHer> hi all
Jan 26 21:30:47 <CM> Morgret: I totally agree
Jan 26 21:31:02 <CM> And stability above all..
Jan 26 21:31:02 <greentux> you can do that mail notify via jabber.
Jan 26 21:31:20 <larstobi> greentux: how?
Jan 26 21:31:41 <Elrond> Morgret - Right.
Jan 26 21:31:47 <greentux> you need a jabber server with "jabber mail check" service
Jan 26 21:31:59 <greentux> there you can add the mailbox to monitor.
Jan 26 21:32:00 <Morgret> CM: stability goes without saying.  Any app that crashes in August should not be allowed in the Sept launch.
Jan 26 21:32:01 <FirefighterBlu3> it'd be nice to support mail notifies by [ ] SMS, [ ] IM Flavor, [ ] etc
Jan 26 21:32:16 <greentux> then the jmc jabbers the header or the mail to you. (pushed! :)
Jan 26 21:32:34 <CM> Morgret: We wouln't want it to feel like a WindowsMobile phone, crashing 10 times a day.. ;)
Jan 26 21:33:11 <FirefighterBlu3> 10?
Jan 26 21:33:13 <Morgret> CM: hehehe.  Well, even though crashing might make some people feel at home ... no.  We don't want tha.
Jan 26 21:33:18 <FirefighterBlu3> can i trade phones with you?
Jan 26 21:34:07 <Elrond> It has to be super-rock-stable.  That might be one of the selling points, really.
Jan 26 21:34:37 <Morgret> You know what?  This phone is going to have the largest body of testers pre-launch EVER.  In the emulator of course, but still.
Jan 26 21:34:43 <Elrond> I keep my old phone exactly for that reason. I still haven't found any single bug on it. :)
Jan 26 21:35:29 <Morgret> Ditto:  no bugs in my Nokia Communicator 9210 (veeeery old).  Zero.
Jan 26 21:35:52 <Elrond> siemens me45 here.
Jan 26 21:39:47 <Elrond> I like the me45, because it's a bit rugged. :)
Jan 26 21:40:15 <buz> i'm wondering about the follow up to nokia 9300i
Jan 26 21:40:28 <buz> that could be the dream phone (minus the fact that it doesnt run linux)
Jan 26 21:48:17 <rmassa> so when/where can we buy one?
Jan 26 22:00:27 <noidd> you wnat to give people the choice of SMS or Data notification
Jan 26 22:00:37 <noidd> since that is specific to their plan which method would be most appropriate
Jan 26 22:00:41 * noidd smells a plugin
Jan 26 22:01:58 <FirefighterBlu3> :)
Jan 26 23:37:22 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: I guess it depends on how often you receive new mail whether or not "notify via SMS" is more battery friendly than IMAP IDLE. If you get new mail more often than circa every 15 or 30 minutes, then I believe IDLE is more power efficient.
Jan 26 23:39:10 <larstobi> FirefighterBlu3: because you'd have to do a full IMAP sync with the SMS method, wich may use considerably more transmitting power than just a IDLE command every 30 minutes or so.
Jan 26 23:41:12 <larstobi> also, even Microsoft is going away from the SMS method nowadays, with more or less power efficiency success...
Jan 27 00:16:12 <hrw|tv> mail over sms? sick idea
Jan 27 00:17:10 <larstobi> hrw|tv: no, new mail _notification_ ;-)
Jan 27 00:18:25 <hrw|tv> bleh
Jan 27 00:18:37 <larstobi> huh?
Jan 27 00:18:47 <hrw|tv> sick too
Jan 27 00:18:54 <larstobi> what? how?
Jan 27 00:19:39 <newmedian> An SMS is not a terrible notification, if you can't use IDLE. Most countries don't charge an arm and a leg for SMS (like some North American providers do).
Jan 27 00:20:06 <SpeedEvil> Inbound SMS is free generally in the UK.
Jan 27 00:20:09 <SpeedEvil> It costs to send.
Jan 27 00:20:13 <larstobi> that's right, here in Norway they only charge an arm
Jan 27 00:20:13 <newmedian> Interesting.
Jan 27 00:20:13 <hrw|tv> in Poland too
Jan 27 00:20:24 <hrw|tv> free get, pay send
Jan 27 00:20:33 <SpeedEvil> this is because we don't have the silly notion of mixing up the cellphone and ordinary phone numbering space.
Jan 27 00:20:47 <hrw|tv> but how to know which sms is notify which not?
Jan 27 00:20:56 <newmedian> In Toronto Canada, I'm paying a $10 CAD for 1000 SMS per month, on top of whatever my plan includes.
Jan 27 00:21:10 <SpeedEvil> Get the user to point to a 'this is a you have new mail' SMS?
Jan 27 00:21:12 <larstobi> that's pretty easy to distinguish
Jan 27 00:21:52 <SpeedEvil> Kids these days in the UK seem to use SMS as IRC
Jan 27 00:22:01 <larstobi> yeah...hehe
Jan 27 00:22:13 <newmedian> They use SMS for voicemail notification here :|  (although they don't bill you for that SMS)
Jan 27 00:22:53 <larstobi> I suppose they bill the guy that leaves the voicemail
Jan 27 00:23:19 <SpeedEvil> Generally - unless you're on the same network, in which case it can be free.
Jan 27 00:23:23 <newmedian> No, not for the SMS; If the person is using their cellular, then they pay for their own minutes.
Jan 27 00:23:24 <larstobi> and when you actually download the voicemail, they charge you, right?
Jan 27 00:23:28 <hrw|tv> I disabled voicemail
Jan 27 00:24:11 <newmedian> I can call to listen to the voicemail through a landline for free, or I can pay cell minutes to call through my cell and listen to my voicemail.
Jan 27 00:24:14 <hrw|tv> in my network you get voicemail sms notify free, voicemail free, caller pays like for normal connection
Jan 27 00:24:39 <newmedian> Here caller doesn't pay, which leads to Spam.
Jan 27 00:25:00 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. O2 gprs data rate - .3p/Kb, for low price contract plans.
Jan 27 00:25:02 <larstobi> an SMS costs like 8 cents in Norway
Jan 27 00:26:08 <larstobi> that's 4p for ya
Jan 27 00:28:14 <SpeedEvil> I can imagine VOIP over GPRS in some cases being a good way to reduce costs.
Jan 27 00:28:35 <larstobi> how is the latency on that?
Jan 27 00:28:46 <newmedian> They are charging $0.20 per SMS for International SMS.
Jan 27 00:28:49 <hrw|tv> I pay 0.20 pln for sms
Jan 27 00:31:35 <newmedian> Here Fido/Microcell is charging $12/month for 1 MB, or $25/month for 3 MB, or $40/month for 7 MB, or $60/month for 25 MB, or $100/month for 200 MB, with excess data charges ranging from $22 per additional MB down to $5 per additional MB (if you're paying the $100/month).
Jan 27 00:31:55 <newmedian> I should say, GPRS, that is.
Jan 27 00:32:14 <hrw|tv> 50MB for 30 pln and then 0.06 pln for each 50KB
Jan 27 00:32:53 <newmedian> We need a world wide WiFi mesh. :)
Jan 27 00:33:36 <larstobi> Fon?
Jan 27 00:38:09 <frostschutz> Fon is not world wide, Fon is in my cellar
Jan 27 00:38:39 <larstobi> huh? in your cellar?
Jan 27 00:39:04 * newmedian read that as cellular
Jan 27 00:42:23 <larstobi> ah
Jan 27 00:42:57 <larstobi> lol... but it's a good attempt at a world wide wi-fi network
Jan 27 00:43:45 <newmedian> Does the _ above an o sound like the Fōn == Phone ?  (my font is too small, I can't tell if that's a proper _)
Jan 27 00:49:59 <larstobi> it is pronounced more like "phoon"
Jan 27 00:53:10 <Elrond> counter
Jan 27 00:53:10 <aloril> 2 weeks 22:35:47 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 27 00:54:14 <newmedian> I would really like a pre-order, so that on 2007-03-11 the ecommerce system doesn't get jammed up.
Jan 27 00:54:41 <hrw|tv> http://www.hrw.one.pl/2007/01/27/star-wars-empire-of-dreams/
Jan 27 00:54:58 <hrw|tv> I would really like to get free one ;D
Jan 27 00:56:03 <newmedian> Well, yes, that'd be nice. But I don't mind buying one to further the cause. I assume there are only going to be a few strategic developers for the 2007-02-11.
Jan 27 00:57:13 <Elrond> Well, I'd like a money-back thing. Or pay, when I like it. ;o)
Jan 27 00:58:12 <newmedian> TANSTAAFL, even if it's an "open" phone. :)
Jan 27 00:58:35 <Elrond> What?
Jan 27 00:58:54 <newmedian> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/TANSTAAFL
Jan 27 00:59:31 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jan 27 00:59:50 <newmedian> Although I wonder what RAH would have thought about FLOSS. Hmm.
Jan 27 01:00:51 <Elrond> Well, here in .de, there is: Anything you buy remotely (via phone, or internet), can be sent back within two weeks, if one hasn't used it too much (it should be 99% new). No money to pay.
Jan 27 01:01:07 <SpeedEvil> EU too.
Jan 27 01:01:11 <SpeedEvil> It's EU wide.
Jan 27 01:01:16 <SuN> It's 8 days here.
Jan 27 01:01:28 <Elrond> Ahh, I didn't know, it was eu-wide.
Jan 27 01:01:34 <newmedian> In Canada there is a 7 day return policy, but stores hate it if you try to enforce it. They fight tooth and nail, except big department stores.
Jan 27 01:01:37 <larstobi> even in Norway
Jan 27 01:01:38 <SpeedEvil> Distance Selling REgulations.
Jan 27 01:01:40 <Elrond> Does .uk play in that eu game? :)
Jan 27 01:01:47 <SpeedEvil> Generally.
Jan 27 01:02:43 <Elrond> Hmm, so if I buy the neo from the .uk fic store... I could send it back, if I really don't like it. ;)
Jan 27 01:02:56 <Elrond> ... if the rumoured .uk fic store exists. ;o)
Jan 27 01:03:08 <newmedian> perhaps it's just a fan fic ;)
Jan 27 01:03:45 <Elrond> newmedian - People already made fun and said, that fic does not exist at all. ;)
Jan 27 01:05:06 * newmedian suppresses urge to follow that with more wordplay. :)
Jan 27 01:05:23 <noiddpalm> evenin
Jan 27 01:05:35 <newmedian> somewhere. hello. :)
Jan 27 01:05:45 <Elrond> Hi noiddpalm
Jan 27 01:05:58 <noiddpalm> i'm working sound and lights at a theatre tonght
Jan 27 01:06:07 <noiddpalm> in the booth
Jan 27 01:06:36 <Elrond> hihi :)
Jan 27 01:06:41 <noiddpalm> was thinking about writing an app to run cues from my phone
Jan 27 01:06:51 <noiddpalm> over bluetooth :p
Jan 27 01:06:56 <Elrond> *lol*
Jan 27 01:07:58 <noiddpalm> random thoughts I guess :)
Jan 27 01:08:20 <newmedian> Hopefully the bluetooth won't suffer from the vulnerabilities that plague the proprietary cell phones, e.g. via bluesnipe
Jan 27 01:09:15 <noiddpalm> I don't know what that is
Jan 27 01:09:33 <Elrond> newmedian - That part of the phone is AFAIK fully free. So you can fix it. :)
Jan 27 01:09:35 <newmedian> Excellent Elrond
Jan 27 01:09:58 <newmedian> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bluesnarf
Jan 27 01:10:29 <noiddpalm> I'm on a palmshite phone so I can only run one app ata time
Jan 27 01:11:44 <newmedian> noiddpalm, it allows someone to remotely grab your contact list and other data, and often take control of the phone remotely, use it to dial, open up the mic, etc. There is also a bluetooth sniper rifle which allows people to do it from long distance from rooftops, etc.
Jan 27 01:11:44 <noiddpalm> I took a photo but I can't do anything wirh it apart from email it
Jan 27 01:12:00 <noiddpalm> all this will change
Jan 27 01:12:08 <noiddpalm> oh ... that's cool
Jan 27 01:13:24 <noiddpalm> counter
Jan 27 01:13:24 <aloril> 2 weeks 22:15:33 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 5 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 27 01:13:44 <noiddpalm> rock on :)
Jan 27 01:13:53 * newmedian mutters "pre order"
Jan 27 01:13:55 <Elrond> newmedian - Hey... the openmoko just starts to work as a phone. I guess, the 02-11 phones have bluetooth drivers in the kernel, but nothing in userspace, that uses it. ;)
Jan 27 01:14:06 <SuN> I feel like a shameless leech but I can't wait to install the OpenMoko software on my Motorola E680.
Jan 27 01:14:25 <noiddpalm> don't feel like a leach man.
Jan 27 01:14:38 <noiddpalm> you are a target for openmoko too
Jan 27 01:15:02 <Elrond> SuN - We will get you. ;o)
Jan 27 01:15:07 <SuN> :D
Jan 27 01:15:12 <newmedian> Interesting Elrond. Since I'm likely not a selected developer, I'll have to wait until 03-11+shipping to play with the bluetooth.
Jan 27 01:16:11 <noiddpalm> what will kill me is that the countdown is only to shipping
Jan 27 01:16:24 <SuN> Well the neo isn't that expensive so I'll probably get one eventually.
Jan 27 01:16:28 <noiddpalm> how long is it going to take from .tw?
Jan 27 01:16:43 <SpeedEvil> Generally 5 days to UK
Jan 27 01:16:50 <noiddpalm> 350 is ammazingly cheap acually
Jan 27 01:16:50 <SpeedEvil> From stuff I've bought
Jan 27 01:16:58 <SpeedEvil> It's not _that_ cheap.
Jan 27 01:17:00 <noiddpalm> I'm not in the uk anymore
Jan 27 01:17:07 <noiddpalm> I'm an expat $$
Jan 27 01:17:20 <SpeedEvil> Go and compare phones with similar features on sim-free
Jan 27 01:17:24 <SuN> It's going to depend on what's on the market in september, I guess.
Jan 27 01:17:37 <Psi_> i wonder if they will bring forward the march date if they end up with lots of phones left once the free ones have been given out in feb
Jan 27 01:17:58 <SpeedEvil> Doubtful.
Jan 27 01:18:21 <noiddpalm> they already have the 50 or so names I elieve
Jan 27 01:18:22 <SpeedEvil> This sort of thing tends to be batches - you send it off to a board house that makes 1000 boards for you, populates them.
Jan 27 01:18:27 <Elrond> What I hope for, is the freeing of gpsd....
Jan 27 01:18:33 <Psi_> from a development point of view, the more ppl have a neo the quicker cools apps will start to surface
Jan 27 01:18:46 <SpeedEvil> It costs more than 1/10th to build another 100
Jan 27 01:18:59 <SpeedEvil> You possibly can't open gpsd and sell it in the US and EU.
Jan 27 01:19:10 <noiddpalm> elrod -0doubt it will happen with this module
Jan 27 01:19:10 <SpeedEvil> As it would be a munition.
Jan 27 01:19:25 <SpeedEvil> You have to have the hard-coded altitude/velocity limits in.
Jan 27 01:19:29 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Why?
Jan 27 01:19:37 <Elrond> Huh?
Jan 27 01:19:42 <noiddpalm> true .. but let me say something controversial
Jan 27 01:19:46 <SpeedEvil> Otherwise, someone will strap a USB ICBM to it.
Jan 27 01:19:56 <SpeedEvil> And use it for guidance.
Jan 27 01:20:02 <Psi_> i wonder if the people who get free phones in feb will be able to show/talk a lot about them or if they will have the keep quiet until march
Jan 27 01:20:03 * newmedian thought you were going to say something about an unladen swallow
Jan 27 01:20:13 <SuN> Haha -- "New hardware found: ICB Missile"
Jan 27 01:20:19 <hrw|tv> cu
Jan 27 01:20:34 <Elrond> Wait. You wanna tell me, that the chips make the accurcy worse than it alreay is?
Jan 27 01:20:39 <SpeedEvil> No.
Jan 27 01:20:40 <SuN> "Please wait while Windows attempts to install drivers for your new hardware"
Jan 27 01:20:47 <noiddpalm> if you do not have critical mass on the softwaee BEFORE you send to devs they won't dev on it.
Jan 27 01:20:50 <SpeedEvil> They clip speed to 1000 knots, and 30000 feet
Jan 27 01:21:00 <SpeedEvil> IIRC
Jan 27 01:21:21 <SpeedEvil> You don't see the limits unless you are using it for unusual stuff.
Jan 27 01:21:22 <SuN> Is there anything that prevents a reimplementation though?
Jan 27 01:21:32 <SpeedEvil> GPS is well publicised.
Jan 27 01:21:38 <noiddpalm> if you send a device to a Gtk programmer which doesn't even have functioal X11
Jan 27 01:21:39 <SpeedEvil> And the format is well known.
Jan 27 01:21:49 <noiddpalm> they will lose intwrest
Jan 27 01:21:51 <SpeedEvil> It's pretty trivial to do a reciever.
Jan 27 01:22:04 <noiddpalm> my guess is that is why they are pausong.
Jan 27 01:22:19 <SpeedEvil> Well, it's a moderately tough RF engineering challenge.
Jan 27 01:22:20 <SuN> They're pausing?
Jan 27 01:22:32 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - That's, what I had understood. So I wondered, why they put limits in the chip, when one can create one on your own.
Jan 27 01:22:35 <noiddpalm> between phase 0 and 1
Jan 27 01:22:52 <SuN> Oh.
Jan 27 01:22:55 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - We do heavy RF stuff in the lab. :)
Jan 27 01:23:01 <SuN> So X isn't finished yet?
Jan 27 01:23:03 <noiddpalm> ie. 55 t� first devs.  then open sale to other devs.
Jan 27 01:23:19 <noiddpalm> It is
Jan 27 01:23:19 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: it used to be a lot harder - the intermediate 'half-GPS' chips make it much easier.
Jan 27 01:23:30 <SuN> Then what are you saying? ;)
Jan 27 01:23:30 <noiddpalm> I was making a fictioal example
Jan 27 01:23:32 <SuN> Ahh
Jan 27 01:23:52 <noiddpalm> as to a reason I would think they would do ot that way
Jan 27 01:23:54 <SpeedEvil> The ones that output range-rates from the satellites, instead of absolute positions.
Jan 27 01:24:06 <noiddpalm> its purely a hypothisi and prolly wrong.
Jan 27 01:24:32 <Elrond> noiddpalm - It's viable. I'd guess, you're right.
Jan 27 01:24:47 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Ahh.
Jan 27 01:25:22 <noiddpalm> I'm sure x11 etc is working
Jan 27 01:25:40 <newmedian> Erm, the GPS is the North American GPS, right? Are the new satellites operational? (EU, etc.)? I'm not up to speed on that.
Jan 27 01:25:49 <noiddpalm> its a known package on several other similer platforms.
Jan 27 01:25:54 <Elrond> SuN - Reimplement: Yep. We can run agpsd in a chroot with faked devices and see, what it's doing on them, etc. :)
Jan 27 01:25:58 <noiddpalm> ok.  my fingers hurt
Jan 27 01:26:05 <noiddpalm> ill see yall later
Jan 27 01:26:13 <SuN> Technically, no doubt. But legally?
Jan 27 01:26:16 <Elrond> Later noiddpalm 
Jan 27 01:26:34 <noiddpalm> plus... I have a so�nd cue comming up.
Jan 27 01:26:52 <Elrond> SuN - Which raises my old question: Is reverse engeneering for interoperatability still allowd in the EU?
Jan 27 01:27:17 <SuN> I'm not sure if the EU has regulations for that, rather I think it differs per country.
Jan 27 01:27:39 <Elrond> There was an EU interop-regulation.
Jan 27 01:27:55 <Elrond> The bare question is, if the software-patent lobby has killed it.
Jan 27 01:28:07 <SpeedEvil> IIRC, not yet.
Jan 27 01:29:08 <SpeedEvil> We need to buy sealand for a dev platform :)
Jan 27 01:29:11 <Elrond> The first thing we really should do on the phone: Put agpsd in a chroot, so it can't hurt the rest of the phone. :)
Jan 27 01:29:54 <SuN> I was thinking the other day... it'd be fun to organize a coup d'etat of Sealand with a bunch of friends.
Jan 27 01:30:20 <SpeedEvil> Good PR stunt too.
Jan 27 01:31:11 <Elrond> Anyway, I'm going to my bed now. :)
Jan 27 01:31:42 <SuN> G'night
Jan 27 01:32:03 <SuN> Well, fact is, if you succeed, there's nothing they can do next to retaking it.
Jan 27 01:34:04 * SuN plays with his E680
Jan 27 01:34:14 <SuN> Voice commands work pretty well.
Jan 27 01:35:08 <SuN> I wonder if there's anything OSS available to port to OpenMoko.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Jan 27 02:59:58 2007