**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jan 30 02:59:57 2007
Jan 30 04:18:57 <Morgret> Just had this link sent to me:
Jan 30 04:19:00 <Morgret>     http://www.uberphones.com/2007/01/meizu_m8_takes_a_stab_at_iphone/
Jan 30 04:20:10 <Morgret> Very competitive market.  Success at selling to mom and dad is going to be hard when there are gadgets like that out there, and we really can't take anything for granted.
Jan 30 06:20:22 <CM> Morgret: Wow, that's a nice phone :)
Jan 30 06:22:29 <CM> 3.3" 720 x 480 display, 3 megapixel camera, ARM11 processor and 3G in 57mm x 105mm x 11.5mm. If only we could run OpenMoko on it..
Jan 30 06:42:45 <glam> help
Jan 30 07:22:17 <l3010o> the phone by chinese?
Jan 30 07:22:25 <l3010o> such a big screen
Jan 30 08:04:26 <TomWork> lo
Jan 30 08:13:49 <xkr47> yo
Jan 30 08:13:51 <xkr47> gug
Jan 30 08:14:21 * xkr47 thinks there could be a "borrow phone to friend" mode
Jan 30 08:15:05 <xkr47> it would only allow to make one call or send one sms, would limit the call length and not allow access to anything else, including phone book
Jan 30 08:17:08 <xkr47> .. but then of course not limiting an emergency call
Jan 30 08:17:50 <xkr47> is it possible to figure out the (local) emergency number somehow?
Jan 30 08:20:26 <douglee> wiki.openmoko.org needs an account and password ?
Jan 30 08:21:17 <CM> douglee: It's not open yet
Jan 30 08:21:20 <CM> counter
Jan 30 08:21:21 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 15:07:14 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 08:22:16 <douglee> CM: Ok, thanks.
Jan 30 08:29:31 <l3010o> local emergency no? hardcode?
Jan 30 09:35:53 <rwhitby> mickeyl: any thoughts on my altboot question?
Jan 30 09:36:10 <rwhitby> are there any other candidates?
Jan 30 09:36:37 <mickeyl> i'm afraid it's the best we have
Jan 30 09:36:40 <mickeyl> let me answer to that mail
Jan 30 09:41:05 <mickeyl> done
Jan 30 10:48:10 <greentux> counter
Jan 30 10:48:11 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 12:40:23 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 10:52:37 * XorA dances the Neo dance
Jan 30 10:53:28 * stefan_schmidt joins XorA
Jan 30 10:54:04 * Stephmw dances the drinks4NeoOwners dance
Jan 30 10:54:26 <XorA> time to register neowhores.com for people to pay to get shown a neo
Jan 30 10:55:39 <Stephmw> hmmm, should do a cutout cardboard Neo for those
Jan 30 10:55:45 <Stephmw> like it's been done for the iphone
Jan 30 10:58:02 <xorAxAx> you consume whores :)
Jan 30 11:03:27 <XorA> I like whores, but I couldnt eat a whole one
Jan 30 12:51:11 <Morgret> CM: It's possible that someone's been playing with GIMP/PS and that that Meizu M8 phone picture isn't real, because engadget also has a Meizu M8 article and it's different.  Here are the two URLs:
Jan 30 12:51:20 <supastuff> hi
Jan 30 12:51:48 <Morgret>     http://www.uberphones.com/2007/01/meizu_m8_takes_a_stab_at_iphone/
Jan 30 12:52:02 <Morgret>     http://cn.engadget.com/2006/09/08/meizu-m8-will-support-wince/
Jan 30 12:52:13 <Morgret> See, they don't agree.
Jan 30 12:52:19 <supastuff> poor iphone, it's five years late, muahahaha
Jan 30 12:54:14 * Stephmw chuckles
Jan 30 12:55:17 <Morgret> The iPhone will sell on the basis of hype, and in Phase 2, Neo/OM has to compete against it to sell to Mom and Dad, so we can't ignore the competition.
Jan 30 12:55:42 <SpeedEvil> We need to talk to cisco to get the iphone name :)
Jan 30 12:56:36 <Morgret> Just feeding money to lawyers never achieves anything, except fattening the lawyer wallets on all sides.
Jan 30 12:58:18 <Morgret> We need to sell on the basis of tech, since that's our forte.  If we can't create killer apps that appeal to mom and dad and everyone who isn't wedded to Apple hype, then commercially this project will fail.  So we have to work at it.
Jan 30 12:58:48 <Morgret> Put your lateral thinking caps on ;-)
Jan 30 12:58:51 <supastuff> Morgret: hopefully there will be enough geeks to develop cool apps and that would drive more mainstream acceptance
Jan 30 12:59:24 <supastuff> apps would have to be well polished, however
Jan 30 13:00:35 <Morgret> supastuff: it's a saturated market, just polish isn't enough.  The cellphone shops are full of polished phones, pushed very strongly by marketting agreements.
Jan 30 13:00:56 <supastuff> I'd want to see gps rather than agps and wlan built in, though
Jan 30 13:00:58 <CM> Really polish an app isn't so common for an open source app. Usually all devs just want to try new things and optimize more :)
Jan 30 13:01:10 <Morgret> Neo has GPS.
Jan 30 13:01:25 <supastuff> Morgret: I agree completely.
Jan 30 13:01:28 <CM> The AGPS degrades to normal GPS
Jan 30 13:01:28 <supastuff> AGPS != GPS
Jan 30 13:02:30 <Morgret> supastuff: AGPS is just GPS hardware plus local RF assist.  It's still pure GPS if you ignore the assist.
Jan 30 13:02:50 <supastuff> ok, thanks for that
Jan 30 13:03:46 <supastuff> I'd say having wlan is a key feature, especially for office/corporate users.  sadly it's easier said than done.
Jan 30 13:04:09 <Marex> yeah ... wlan is important
Jan 30 13:04:10 <CM> Seems possible for v2, but that's over a year away
Jan 30 13:04:10 <supastuff> even home users nowadays would make calls with their cell via wlan
Jan 30 13:04:20 <supastuff> advanced home users, that is
Jan 30 13:04:37 * Marex just hopes for some chip not from marvell
Jan 30 13:05:05 <supastuff> If the world geek community unites to push this phone forward, it can go mainstream
Jan 30 13:05:26 <supastuff> I'll buy v1.0 as soon as it's out
Jan 30 13:05:35 <Morgret> Just run a Bluetooth access point at home, it's only 40 quid.  There's an argument for WLAN out and about in hotspots, but I don't think the argument is so strong at home.
Jan 30 13:05:55 <supastuff> it's not about the money or comfort
Jan 30 13:06:05 <supastuff> 1. bluetooth has a much lower range
Jan 30 13:06:13 <supastuff> 2. then we can't use the phone for wardriving
Jan 30 13:06:47 <supastuff> Morgret: the argument is strong at home too, as there are more wlan APs than bluetooth APs or whatever you call them.
Jan 30 13:08:26 <supastuff> for many it's not about the cost of yet another piece of hardware but comfort
Jan 30 13:09:16 <morricone> but the problem as discussed many times, is that they are no low power, open WIFI chips
Jan 30 13:09:25 <supastuff> whomever worked on this phone as well as its software deserves a bit thumbs up
Jan 30 13:09:53 * supastuff awaits ultra wide bandwidth chips
Jan 30 13:10:56 <Morgret> So, can anyone confirm which of those two pages is correct about the Meizu M8?
Jan 30 13:13:20 <Morgret> I'd never heard of Meizu before.  But if it's a Samsung brand, then it might well be a Linux phone from that nutty LiMo consortium that doesn't seem to understand the GPL.
Jan 30 13:13:36 <CM> Morgret: I think they make mp3-players
Jan 30 13:13:53 <supastuff> just let me know where to buy the moko ;)
Jan 30 13:14:09 <Morgret> CM: yeah, the engadget page seems more genuine that that blog site.
Jan 30 13:18:09 <Ycros> I have an ap at home, I don't want to buy another ap just for a phone
Jan 30 13:18:19 <Morgret> supastuff: well, rwhitby is working on a Bluetooth AP companion for the OM to run on the NSLU2, code-named MokoSlug ... :-)   I'm looking forward to that.
Jan 30 13:18:26 <Ycros> but meh
Jan 30 13:18:43 <supastuff> that's all good. but a wlan option is important nowadays.
Jan 30 13:18:53 <supastuff> I'll buy it with or without it. ;)
Jan 30 13:19:09 <supastuff> I need a new phone and this is better than any at the moment
Jan 30 13:20:10 <Morgret> v2 is bound to have wifi because the demands for it have been so huge, and geeks everywhere would react badly if it wasn't present.  But our problem is now, how to handle home connectivity in v1.
Jan 30 13:21:09 <ynezz> usb cable :p
Jan 30 13:21:40 <supastuff> Morgret: a bit sad but understandable.
Jan 30 13:22:21 <Morgret> It can't power an Ethernet interface directly, so you'll need a powered hub as well.  Not ideal.
Jan 30 13:23:29 <Morgret> Really Bluetooth is the only viable solution at home, unless your idea of "mobile" included trailing wires.
Jan 30 13:24:14 <supastuff> I can see bluetooth as only being good for sync with a laptop or desktop, very close range
Jan 30 13:24:17 <Morgret> So we need to work on good Bt access point connectivity.  Bt dongles for home machines only cost a fiver anyway.
Jan 30 13:25:03 <Morgret> supastuff:  well in that case your Neo will be disconnected most of the time.  You happy with that?  I'm not.  So I'll have to leverage the Bt connectivity.
Jan 30 13:25:30 <Robot101> bzzt! use of leverage as a verb. :P
Jan 30 13:25:49 <Morgret> Yeah, I've been talking to too many americans, forgive me :-)
Jan 30 13:26:03 <supastuff> disconnected from what?
Jan 30 13:26:05 <Robot101> pand works nicely over 10m or so ranges
Jan 30 13:26:16 <Morgret> supastuff: from the net
Jan 30 13:26:32 <Robot101> I used bluetooth to hook my laptop and my desktop at college
Jan 30 13:26:36 <supastuff> I don't think that's a big deal.  do you have applications that need it constantly connected?
Jan 30 13:27:38 <buz> can PAN go thru traditional walls? (i.e. rocks, not concrete with steel)
Jan 30 13:27:43 <Robot101> its more like, why should I have to pay for data when I'm in my house? :)
Jan 30 13:27:54 <Morgret> supastuff:  it's 2007, I don't regard connectivity as just an option anymore.  But for those who do, fine.  My Neo will be on and connected full time at home.
Jan 30 13:28:12 <Robot101> buz: one or two, yes.
Jan 30 13:28:33 <buz> as for access point, get a USB wlan router or a NSLU and stick the dongle in there
Jan 30 13:28:34 <buz> done
Jan 30 13:28:43 <supastuff> Morgret: I'd say for short range connetivity bt is definitely the better choice especially in terms of power draw
Jan 30 13:28:43 <Robot101> buz: I was able to use it in the room upstairs for example
Jan 30 13:28:50 <supastuff> but it's not an option beyond a few good meters
Jan 30 13:28:58 <buz> should easily cover my 40m^2 flat then
Jan 30 13:29:19 <buz> supastuff: save for the fact that you will rarely have BT on the road
Jan 30 13:29:22 <supastuff> I must be out of date with bt's capabilities
Jan 30 13:29:31 <supastuff> buz: that we already know ..
Jan 30 13:29:34 <Morgret> buz: give us a URL for a wifi AP that allows connection of Bluetooth dongles and runs Bt PAN over them.  Not seen one personally.
Jan 30 13:29:52 <buz> asus has a bunch of linux based USB WLAN AP
Jan 30 13:30:07 <buz> if it runs linux, it can do PAN
Jan 30 13:30:56 <Morgret> Well an AP that you have to hack is better than nothing, but it's no use to the non-hacker.
Jan 30 13:31:35 <buz> i'd venture to say that it wont take long until someone comes up with a ready made distro for that
Jan 30 13:31:41 <buz> i know there's openslug alpha's already
Jan 30 13:32:16 <Morgret> The Slug doesn't have wifi.
Jan 30 13:32:19 <buz> yes
Jan 30 13:32:25 <buz> but if someone builds a slug distro
Jan 30 13:32:30 <buz> maybe someone gets openwrt to do it...
Jan 30 13:32:43 <buz> shouldnt be terribly har
Jan 30 13:32:43 <Morgret> Maybe maybe maybe ....
Jan 30 13:34:13 <supastuff> everything is easy for the geek, it's the non-geek we should think about.
Jan 30 13:34:37 <buz> so prepare an openwrt image with it set up
Jan 30 13:34:49 <Morgret> I wonder if the Nokia 770 and its new version are a viable Bt->wifi gateway, since the gadget has both interfaces and Maemo is Linux.
Jan 30 13:35:17 <buz> terribly expensive way to do a gateway
Jan 30 13:35:32 <Morgret> Just a tad :P
Jan 30 13:35:39 <buz> would be cheaper to get gumstix or something like that
Jan 30 13:35:47 <buz> and add wifi
Jan 30 13:35:47 <buz> smaller, too
Jan 30 13:36:12 <SpeedEvil> Gumstix have a fundamental problem.
Jan 30 13:36:19 <SpeedEvil> You get wifi, or you get storage.
Jan 30 13:36:25 <Morgret> buz:  I think you've missing the point ... geek solutions there are 10 million.  What we're looking for is a solution for mom and dad.  And there seem to be zero.
Jan 30 13:36:38 <XorA> windows
Jan 30 13:36:46 <buz> mom and dad probably dont surf the net on bluetooth
Jan 30 13:36:53 <buz> and neither care to do so
Jan 30 13:37:38 <Morgret> buz:  they don't care that it's Bluetooth.  But when we buy them a Neo for Xmas, and they're at home, they'll say it's crap if we don't provide them with a way to be connected.  It's 2007, fer crissake.
Jan 30 13:37:39 <buz> cant speak for your parents, but my mother is happy with her ibook, thats light enough for her
Jan 30 13:38:05 <buz> see, normal people dont surf the web on 2,8" screens
Jan 30 13:38:11 <buz> only geeks do that in the first place
Jan 30 13:38:24 <Morgret> buz: you do realize that in Phase 2, Neo/OM has to sell well to mom and dad, right?  Or the project fails?
Jan 30 13:38:41 <buz> yeah
Jan 30 13:38:45 <buz> but for that it needs be a good phone
Jan 30 13:38:51 <buz> not a webpad
Jan 30 13:39:00 <XorA> I think for my parents/in laws, if it can send SMS with pictures thats all they want
Jan 30 13:39:03 <buz> solving that issue would be best done with wifi
Jan 30 13:39:06 <CM> The Neo will sell enough anyway
Jan 30 13:39:10 <buz> XorA: exactly
Jan 30 13:39:20 <Morgret> Good.  So we're asking for solutions for them.  There's no point offering just geek solutions, nor saying that mom and dad don't need net connectivity.
Jan 30 13:39:25 <CM> But of course, the bigger the Moko part of the sales is the better :)
Jan 30 13:39:52 <buz> chances are only parents of geeks will even know about the phones
Jan 30 13:40:00 <buz> their child can install them a BT hub in 20min
Jan 30 13:41:26 <buz> proper way to solve the issue is adding wifi
Jan 30 13:41:35 <buz> not telling people to buy a 200$ gadget
Jan 30 13:42:20 <Morgret> buz: jeez man, live in the present.  Neo1 doesn't have wifi
Jan 30 13:42:25 <buz> yes
Jan 30 13:42:28 <buz> i do live in the present
Jan 30 13:42:55 <buz> if you think you can sell people a >100$ solution to surf the web with their phone, well think again
Jan 30 13:43:35 * XorA plans to use GPRS for surfing, dunno about you guys
Jan 30 13:43:52 <buz> XorA at 4E a MB thats not an option here
Jan 30 13:43:54 <Morgret> CM:  I don't think we can take "enough sales" for granted.  The cellphone shops are closed up tight by manufacturer deals, most people expect their phones to be free with contract anyway, and the Neo doesn't have a really advanced h/wfeature set.  It's going to need some hard work.
Jan 30 13:44:09 <XorA> buz: move to UK
Jan 30 13:44:56 <Sketch> the price is quite good for an unlocked phone without service
Jan 30 13:44:56 <XorA> Neo is perfect replacement for my HTC Wizard (MDA Vario)
Jan 30 13:45:48 <buz> mind you, neo needs to recoup the money spent on linux implementation, the hardware costs will be paid for by selling winmobile devices by the 100 thousands
Jan 30 13:46:24 <Morgret> buz: I don't think FIC cross-subsidize their spinoff groups.
Jan 30 13:46:50 <buz> thats why it needs to pay for the development of the software
Jan 30 13:46:59 <buz> the hardware is basically there anyhow
Jan 30 13:47:15 <buz> sunk cost really
Jan 30 13:49:11 * XorA thinks this is all a bit pointless as Ill bet FIC have a marketing group who have done studies, drawn up plans etc etc
Jan 30 13:49:21 <buz> besides if fic is smart they will use the buzz created by openmoko to sell other hardware to the OSS crowds
Jan 30 13:49:25 <supastuff> good luck to everyone involved in the project.   bye
Jan 30 13:50:00 <Morgret> Not really.  Even though the modules are from other FIC cellphones, the Neo is a new composite of them, and that cost a substantial amount of money to create and get operational.  Add in the h/w unitary costs, and the money spent on OM, and it comes out at 4-5 figure sales before the dev costs are recouped.
Jan 30 13:50:33 <buz> Morgret: i'vce been told repeatedly that the VERY SAME device will sell in china as winmobile phone
Jan 30 13:50:33 <Morgret> Just do various back of envelope scenarios.
Jan 30 13:50:53 <buz> sure it needs 5 figure sales
Jan 30 13:51:11 <buz> but 5 figures is not that much on a global scale
Jan 30 13:51:13 <Morgret> buz: and I heard the same.  But I have not heard that they will cross-subsidize the OM team.
Jan 30 13:51:25 <buz> they probably wont
Jan 30 13:51:25 * XorA gueses just the linux geeks purchases will be halfway to 5 figures
Jan 30 13:51:37 <buz> neo needs to pay for its software development
Jan 30 13:51:47 <buz> the hardware would have been built one way or another
Jan 30 13:52:08 <buz> at least that's what any halfway sane way accounting book would tell you
Jan 30 13:52:44 <Morgret> Humans aren't even half sane. :P  Projects don't like other groups leaching off them :-)
Jan 30 13:53:43 <buz> so by that logic apple had the nano pay for the whole amount of firmware development again?
Jan 30 13:53:44 <buz> hardly
Jan 30 13:53:51 <buz> (the customers did pay for it, sure)
Jan 30 13:54:14 <Morgret> One possible approach to appease the bean counters to allow cross-project subsidy is to agree that "Whatever you spend on your WinMobile licenses, we will spend on OM."  Makes the accounting balanced for shared h/w development.
Jan 30 13:55:34 <buz> or you just buy hte phones at the price fic would sell them without winmobile
Jan 30 13:55:48 <Morgret> buz: 99% the costs of Apple projects are spent by the Hype Marketting Dept, aren't they? ;-)
Jan 30 13:59:22 <CM> Morgret: Sorry for the slow reply, was getting some coffee
Jan 30 13:59:43 <Morgret> It's all speculation since we don't know how FIC work.  But they do want mom+dad sales in Phase 2, and I'm guessing that it's not just a desire for profit but because the team need to recoup their costs.  So we need to look out for mom+dad in our development.
Jan 30 13:59:55 <CM> Someone here, 3 months ago, said that FIC already had an order of 10.000 phones or so for china
Jan 30 14:00:09 <CM> Neo1973 that is, but with win ce on it or something
Jan 30 14:00:16 <CM> I have to see if I can find it
Jan 30 14:00:21 <Morgret> So that would be .....  0.000000000000000000000000001% of population? ;-)
Jan 30 14:00:46 <CM> Yes, but supposedly it was some government deal or so
Jan 30 14:06:09 <loufoque> why would they want to put win ce on it
Jan 30 14:06:12 <loufoque> that's so stupid
Jan 30 14:06:31 <CM> I have no idea.. Just found one quote from dec 28th: 18:29 <yacc> Well, I've heard some rumors that the FIC phone will be sold as a WinMobile in China. Which would give the Linux version benefits of the huge numbers from the start.
Jan 30 14:07:14 <CM> Can't say where that rumor comes though, and I don't know if it's true
Jan 30 14:07:22 <loufoque> maybe china needs windows to restrict liberty
Jan 30 14:07:25 <yacc> CM: I admit I have no idea where I've got that thing from. I think somebody mentioned that it will be feasible economically because of that dual-use.
Jan 30 14:07:37 <CM> yacc: Yes, that's what I remember too
Jan 30 14:08:03 <CM> Was it in some early mail on the community list maybe?
Jan 30 14:08:05 <yacc> loufoque: Well, one has to admit it, a winmobile is currently way more massmarketable then a new linux phone.
Jan 30 14:08:10 <yacc> CM: think so.
Jan 30 14:08:27 <loufoque> yacc: for what reason ?
Jan 30 14:08:44 <CM> loufoque: Basicly because it's already working
Jan 30 14:08:57 <CM> And has all basic apps ready and tested
Jan 30 14:09:00 <yacc> loufoque: People know it. Assuming that the Neo will be way more usable/cool, it will still take months if not years till some of the mass population hears about it.
Jan 30 14:09:29 <loufoque> linux is already working, ready and tested.
Jan 30 14:10:46 <yacc> loufoque: but not the opensource application stack to be used as a phone.
Jan 30 14:13:33 <Morgret> Selling well isn't related to the O/S inside.  There are a ton of Motorola phones that sell well to people who have no idea that they're Linux inside.  Selling well is a matter of business deals with cellphone shops / chains.
Jan 30 14:14:42 <Morgret> There are only a limited number of shelves and stands inside a cellphone shop.  Getting your phone on there requires paying for placement.
Jan 30 14:15:01 <yacc> Morgret: Yeah, but the Neo shines on the fact that it's an open smartphone. As a simple phone, it lacks a keyboard. As a smartphone it's probably not yet recognized by the massmarket?
Jan 30 14:15:17 <CM> And it is cheap
Jan 30 14:15:59 <Morgret> I grant you, it does have the benefit for "cheap for an OK unlocked mobile".
Jan 30 14:16:01 <yacc> CM: yeah, it's cheap as a smartphone. It's not so cheap as a simple phone. No EDGE, no UTMS, no MP3 player probably, no WLAN.
Jan 30 14:16:41 <yacc> Morgret: If that's ok depends strongly on the region. E.g. a non-smartphone without a keyboard will have it hard in Europe ;)
Jan 30 14:17:05 <Morgret> Tons of MP3 players, just probably not from FIC since they might not want to pay for the license.  Until 2010 anyway.
Jan 30 14:17:25 <CM> I think they'll have to sell it as a GPS phone with a nice screen
Jan 30 14:17:25 <yacc> Morgret: exactly. But the massmarket will take the phone as it is in the shop ;)
Jan 30 14:17:40 <Morgret> yacc: true
Jan 30 14:17:59 <yacc> Yeah, but for GPS being useful, what about a navigation app? None available? To bad.
Jan 30 14:18:35 <yacc> Yeah, I know GPS has a number of other useful uses, but all these are non-classical apps that will probably start being driven by the community.
Jan 30 14:18:41 <buz> tomtom runs on linux natively
Jan 30 14:18:47 <buz> they might port it to neo
Jan 30 14:19:00 <yacc> buz: will they sell it on the Neo, when it gets released? Don't think so. ;)
Jan 30 14:19:05 <stefan_schmidt> http://navit.sourceforge.net/?page=home
Jan 30 14:19:23 <buz> anyway, the app isnt so much a problem as the MAPS
Jan 30 14:19:41 <yacc> buz: exactly.
Jan 30 14:20:18 <loufoque> CM: it's not that cheap.
Jan 30 14:20:25 <yacc> buz: perhaps the cheap Neo will drive a popular digitization campaign (as it becomes easy to register data), but currently the map data is the issue with navigation.
Jan 30 14:20:26 <Morgret> Thanks stefan, downloading and trying with my GPS receiver.
Jan 30 14:20:38 <buz> yacc: i doubt it
Jan 30 14:20:43 <yacc> loufoque: it's cheap.
Jan 30 14:20:43 <buz> seems like too much trouble
Jan 30 14:20:48 <CM> ~change 350 USD to EUR
Jan 30 14:20:55 <apt> 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 270.144 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Jan 30 14:20:56 <loufoque> yacc: for what reason couldn't it read mp3s ?
Jan 30 14:21:03 <yacc> loufoque: licenses?
Jan 30 14:21:03 <buz> yeah consindering it's not even EDGE and no wlan, it's not that cheap
Jan 30 14:21:07 <buz> then again GPS and VGA are neat
Jan 30 14:21:16 <yacc> loufoque: FIC will not be able to include a free mp3 player.
Jan 30 14:21:17 <CM> It can already, but it uses 30% cpu decoding it
Jan 30 14:21:41 <Morgret> ~change 350 USD to pounds
Jan 30 14:21:42 <yacc> CM: yeah, but FIC cannot include it in the firmware image.
Jan 30 14:21:46 <apt> 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,570.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Jan 30 14:21:47 <loufoque> 30% cpu to decode an archaic codec like MP3 ?
Jan 30 14:21:57 <buz> fic could simply license MP3
Jan 30 14:22:04 <Morgret> ~change 350 USD to UKP
Jan 30 14:22:07 <buz> bseides the MP3 patent is not globally valid
Jan 30 14:22:09 <apt> 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,570.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Jan 30 14:22:15 <Morgret> grrrr
Jan 30 14:22:16 <yacc> 270EUR + 19%VAT makes again 320EUR ;)
Jan 30 14:22:17 <CM> ~change 350 USD to GBP
Jan 30 14:22:18 <silwo1> how about cpu usage for playing ogg-vorbis?
Jan 30 14:22:21 <apt> 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 178.371 Pound (GBP) (from http://www.xe.com/)
Jan 30 14:22:30 <Morgret> Thanks CM :P
Jan 30 14:22:45 <loufoque> then playing h264 videos is definitely impossible I bet
Jan 30 14:22:48 <yacc> buz: they can simply license it, but then they would have to put a non-GPL program in the firmware, and I think Sean won't like that.
Jan 30 14:23:03 <buz> they already do that
Jan 30 14:23:05 <loufoque> what's the license of libmad ?
Jan 30 14:23:08 <buz> even a NON opensource one
Jan 30 14:23:24 <yacc> buz: we'll see.
Jan 30 14:24:06 <loufoque> AFAIK, libmad decodes MP3 and is GPL licensed
Jan 30 14:24:45 <moo_tang_clan> it's the license of the patent, not the source code, that is the problem
Jan 30 14:25:03 <moo_tang_clan> e.g., the gstreamer mp3 decoder is bsd licensed
Jan 30 14:25:46 <yacc> navit looks cool, even it relies on a commercial DVD to extract the maps. Which might be a tad illegal.
Jan 30 14:26:02 <XorA> its 22% load for the s3c2410 running at 200Mhz, extrapolate that to the neo at 266Mhz
Jan 30 14:26:42 <XorA> and that high figure might be becuase I scewed up somewhere
Jan 30 14:26:52 <yacc> loufoque: basically the first one to legally release a mp3 gpl'ed decoder would make mp3 available to all gpl software, because the GPL basically forces that.
Jan 30 14:27:16 <yacc> XorA: Does the memory interface also scale with the clock?
Jan 30 14:27:37 <XorA> yacc: I think the mem clock stays the same
Jan 30 14:28:00 <yacc> XorA: Then it's hard to scale performance values, isn't it?
Jan 30 14:28:38 <XorA> yacc: why, the decode will take x% less based on clocks per second
Jan 30 14:29:29 <yacc> XorA: Yeah, if it fits completly into the caches, and nothing else competes for the cache ;)
Jan 30 14:30:08 <yacc> XorA: scaling performance figures is usually an interesting exercise in calculating useless values :-P
Jan 30 14:30:25 <XorA> well when I get final phone model Ill let you know
Jan 30 14:30:39 <yacc> XorA: *g* :)
Jan 30 14:30:53 <XorA> counter
Jan 30 14:30:53 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 08:57:40 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 14:30:57 <loufoque> people don't pay VAT in the united states ?
Jan 30 14:31:27 * CM has a nice 25% VAT to look forward to
Jan 30 14:31:35 <LoRez> loufoque: what's VAT?  ;)
Jan 30 14:31:47 <LoRez> (and yes, I'm in the US)
Jan 30 14:31:48 <loufoque> value added tax or something like that
Jan 30 14:31:57 <XorA> LoRez: equiv of Sales Tax
Jan 30 14:32:15 <LoRez> just 3x as high
Jan 30 14:32:20 <XorA> what our theiving bastard government steal off us at the tills
Jan 30 14:32:25 <CM> I think you have it in the us, but it's low. Especially on food and clothes and such
Jan 30 14:32:41 <moo_tang_clan> um, who are people planning on paying the vat to?
Jan 30 14:32:57 <CM> I'll try not to of course
Jan 30 14:33:06 <LoRez> CM: it doesn't usually differ between food and other items here.  some places might lower the sales tax on food, but it's not that common
Jan 30 14:33:25 <CM> LoRez: Ah, ok. Just something I read somewhere :)
Jan 30 14:33:27 <loufoque> VAT makes 60% of the money of the french government
Jan 30 14:33:31 <teryial> helo when will this be released
Jan 30 14:33:39 <CM> counter
Jan 30 14:33:39 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 08:54:54 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 14:33:54 <yacc> CM: At least mine will be a company phone so I don't have to pay the VAT, or get it back, depending where I'll get it from :)
Jan 30 14:34:16 <fluffs> XorA: memclk (hclk) is scaled from cpu core clk (fclk)
Jan 30 14:34:24 <CM> yacc: Heh, I'm just about to start a company, so maybe I'll order it through it. ;)
Jan 30 14:34:26 <teryial> im guessing it works with cingular
Jan 30 14:34:45 <CM> teryial: Should work with any GSM provider
Jan 30 14:35:08 <teryial> hmm 
Jan 30 14:35:15 <teryial> i like thi
Jan 30 14:35:16 <teryial> this
Jan 30 14:35:22 <teryial> i was going for an iphone
Jan 30 14:35:43 <teryial> what is the OS on the phone based on
Jan 30 14:35:56 <yacc> teryial: it's linux ;)
Jan 30 14:36:09 <ssvb> moo_tang_clan: what are Neo graphics chip capabilities? Does it support YUV in hardware? Scaling?
Jan 30 14:36:13 <yacc> teryial: it kind of the point of the exercise ;)
Jan 30 14:36:26 <CM> teryial: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html
Jan 30 14:36:30 <moo_tang_clan> ssvb: no
Jan 30 14:36:37 <moo_tang_clan> ssvb: just what comes on the SoC afiak
Jan 30 14:36:50 <teryial> when it is released to the public where will it be sold
Jan 30 14:36:53 <CM> And thats very slow. No fpu either
Jan 30 14:36:56 <ssvb> moo_tang_clan: I'll check specs then
Jan 30 14:37:20 <teryial> im using bitchx and i cant click the url
Jan 30 14:37:36 <ssvb> moo_tang_clan: if it soes have any YUV support, Neo may be quite good for video
Jan 30 14:37:48 <ssvb> s/soes/does
Jan 30 14:37:56 <moo_tang_clan> ssvb: i'm pretty sure it doesn't.
Jan 30 14:38:02 <loufoque> teryial: you can buy it on the internet.
Jan 30 14:38:21 <teryial> price public release date?
Jan 30 14:38:39 <loufoque> read what was given to you teryial 
Jan 30 14:38:43 <CM> $350
Jan 30 14:39:07 <teryial> 7 months?
Jan 30 14:39:23 <CM> Yes, that's the official launch date
Jan 30 14:39:53 <teryial> Does it have a terminal
Jan 30 14:40:14 <CM> teryial: Read the announcement
Jan 30 14:40:22 <teryial> okay
Jan 30 14:40:23 <CM> or the wiki that's mentioned in the topic
Jan 30 14:40:29 <teryial> later
Jan 30 14:40:35 <loufoque> a terminal !? What do you mean ?
Jan 30 14:40:37 <XorA> fluffs: ah hello Mr Dooks
Jan 30 14:40:51 <CM> loufoque: Hehe.. 
Jan 30 14:41:15 <pH5> XorA: from the S3C2410A manual it looks like the HCLK scales with the FCLK, both are generated by the same PLL.
Jan 30 14:41:25 <loufoque> I doubt it can be run in text mode, but you should be able to run xterm or anything of the like
Jan 30 14:42:00 <CM> loufoque: mickeyl said it has a shell to start with on lugradio :)
Jan 30 14:42:15 <fluffs> pH5: you are right, there is one pll to generate all but the usb clocks
Jan 30 14:42:26 <pH5> fluffs: I just noticed that you already said that above :)
Jan 30 14:46:22 <loufoque> the micro-SD slot doesn't seem very accessible
Jan 30 14:47:27 <ssvb> moo_tang_clan: anyway, cpu should be fast enough to watch 320x240 mpeg4 video
Jan 30 14:47:52 <XorA> ssvb: at 15 fps
Jan 30 14:47:59 <loufoque> ssvb: what do you mean by mpeg4 ?
Jan 30 14:48:01 <XorA> ssvb: unless someone improves ffmpeg
Jan 30 14:48:02 <fluffs> loufoque: what are you using for mp3 playback?
Jan 30 14:48:09 <ssvb> XorA: most likely at 30 fps
Jan 30 14:48:28 <XorA> ssvb: my smdk2440 doesnt manage that
Jan 30 14:48:54 <loufoque> ssvb: depends on codec and bitrate
Jan 30 14:48:56 <ssvb> XorA: a lot depends on memory throughoutput performance
Jan 30 14:49:29 <XorA> ssvb: its not looking hopeful on the neo
Jan 30 14:49:51 <loufoque> fluffs: is what I use personally to play mp3 really important to you ?
Jan 30 14:49:57 <ssvb> XorA: Nokia 770 can easily handle 320x240 30 fps mpeg4 even without hardware yuv
Jan 30 14:50:43 <fluffs> loufoque: you where talking above about cpu usage for mp3 playback? i thought you where quoting measurments from using an s3c2410?
Jan 30 14:52:12 <loufoque> fluffs: I do not own one, so I wouldn't know.
Jan 30 14:52:45 <XorA> ~lart ALSA
Jan 30 14:52:45 * apt takes a big bite out of ALSA's jugular vein
Jan 30 14:53:35 <XorA> 3629 root     S       2996  2635 22.8  2.3 mplayer
Jan 30 14:53:58 * fluffs uses madplay to play mp3s, has good integer decoder
Jan 30 14:54:11 <XorA> that is mplayer using libmad to decode
Jan 30 14:55:15 <ssvb> XorA: libmad can be configured for low or high quality, so results may differ
Jan 30 14:55:51 <fluffs> XorA: thanks for the work on ASoC btw
Jan 30 14:56:05 <XorA> fluffs: no probs, I do it for cash :-)
Jan 30 14:58:30 <XorA> one day I might even make it work without driving me insane
Jan 30 14:59:04 * fluffs has too much to do to test before 2.6.20 is out
Jan 30 15:00:03 <XorA> fluffs: you attending FOSDEM/Debconf/Guadec?
Jan 30 15:01:11 <fluffs> yes
Jan 30 15:01:31 <fluffs> FOSDEM yes, Debconf no, Guadec?
Jan 30 15:02:11 <lrg> hey fluffs 
Jan 30 15:02:29 <lrg> fluffs: I may be at guadec
Jan 30 15:03:57 <lrg> fluffs: they had a nice beach party last year, although Birmingham may be to far away and cold for a beach party
Jan 30 15:09:03 <noidd> fuck
Jan 30 15:09:16 <noidd> sorry
Jan 30 15:09:16 <leventhal> eh?
Jan 30 15:09:33 <noidd> I dropped a bottle of water on my mouse
Jan 30 15:09:33 <leventhal> got a dead rodent now?
Jan 30 15:09:33 <noidd> heh
Jan 30 15:09:45 <noidd> It cut + pasted pages of crap to the screen
Jan 30 15:09:56 <loufoque> what doesn't the screen support multi-touch ? Is it a software or a hardware problem ?
Jan 30 15:09:56 <leventhal> we didn't get any of it
Jan 30 15:10:01 <noidd> I'm hoping the irc server flooded me out before it spewed too much crap
Jan 30 15:10:05 <noidd> Good!
Jan 30 15:10:09 <Jo2> Why do the people working with Openmoko think GPRS is 2.5G?
Jan 30 15:10:10 <leventhal> 10:39 -!- PhilKC [i=greece@freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc] has quit ["."]
Jan 30 15:10:10 <leventhal> 10:40 -!- noidd [n=red@thievery.criticalintegration.com] has quit [Excess Flood]
Jan 30 15:10:19 <Jo2> EDGE is 2.5G
Jan 30 15:10:20 <Clint> Jo2: what do you think it is?
Jan 30 15:10:39 <XorA> EDGE = 2.75G
Jan 30 15:10:47 <Jo2> nope, sorry
Jan 30 15:10:50 <Clint> 2.25G
Jan 30 15:11:03 <Jo2> GPRS is 2G
Jan 30 15:11:07 <Jo2> always has been
Jan 30 15:11:16 <loufoque> not at all.
Jan 30 15:11:18 <Jo2> Looks like someone got their wires crossed a bit
Jan 30 15:11:19 <loufoque> GPRS is 2.5G
Jan 30 15:11:27 <loufoque> EDGE is actually closer to 3G
Jan 30 15:11:35 <loufoque> but it's still called 2.5G
Jan 30 15:11:36 <Sketch> EDGE = 2.71828183G
Jan 30 15:11:40 <Jo2> If you only thinkg speed compared to 3g
Jan 30 15:11:50 <Jo2> I mean compared to UMTS
Jan 30 15:11:53 <Jo2> hehe
Jan 30 15:12:03 <loufoque> EDGE is indeed called 2.75G sometimes.
Jan 30 15:12:09 <loufoque> see http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2.5G
Jan 30 15:12:09 <Jo2> they are fairly close there, but not the technology
Jan 30 15:12:19 <Jo2> Never heard of it refered to as 2.75
Jan 30 15:12:29 <XorA> I just made that up BTW
Jan 30 15:12:31 <Jo2> Maybe that is in the US?
Jan 30 15:12:35 <XorA> but GPRS is solidly 2.5G
Jan 30 15:13:24 <Jo2> Really strange to see this terminology get twisted these last few years
Jan 30 15:13:55 <loufoque> I didn't know WiiMax was actually 4G
Jan 30 15:13:55 <Jo2> EDGE was a solution between 2G and 3G...while we waited for real 3G
Jan 30 15:14:04 <Jo2> WiMax 4G?
Jan 30 15:14:16 * Sketch has 3.5G, according to wikipedia 
Jan 30 15:14:31 * XorA will point out he worked on GSM for past 5 years, and will finish the discussion there
Jan 30 15:14:31 <Jo2> I think the G's are being abused and contorted for marketing
Jan 30 15:14:53 <Clint> do they have a purpose besides marketing?
Jan 30 15:15:11 <Jo2> Marketing is one think...abuse is another. ;)
Jan 30 15:15:31 <XorA> ~troll
Jan 30 15:15:38 <loufoque> G's just group mobile protocols together
Jan 30 15:15:40 <apt> [troll] a race on some muds; a guy under a bridge: an annoying robot; a port scanner, or somebody faking being clueless to be shown the One Linux Way so he can argue against it for his psychology thesis on linux advocates, or an employee of trolltech, or at http://www.kuro5hin.org/story/2001/7/27/51233/2979 or http://www.catb.org/~esr/jargon/html/entry/troll.html
Jan 30 15:15:59 <loufoque> Sketch: what's 3.5G ?
Jan 30 15:16:40 <loufoque> HSDPA ?
Jan 30 15:16:57 <Jo2> Isn't HPSDA (hope that is close) 3.5G
Jan 30 15:17:06 * nbd waits for 3.5000001G
Jan 30 15:17:13 <Jo2> Yeah, I was close
Jan 30 15:17:21 <Sketch> loufoque: according to wikipediat it is
Jan 30 15:17:32 <Jo2> nbd? Been a while...
Jan 30 15:17:40 <loufoque> I never ever even had 3G
Jan 30 15:17:57 <Jo2> Have to check out the laste
Jan 30 15:18:03 <noidd> XorA: my Treo 650 is able to download data while I am on a voice call.
Jan 30 15:18:11 <noidd> So you know what protocol / speed it likely uses?
Jan 30 15:18:15 <Jo2> check out the latest QoS script sometime ;)
Jan 30 15:18:38 <loufoque> my mobile provider is charging more for anything above GPRS
Jan 30 15:18:54 <nbd> Jo2: it's going to get a redesign in the next few days
Jan 30 15:19:01 <Jo2> Here in Norway we pay per KB regardless of technology
Jan 30 15:19:20 <Jo2> Joe
Jan 30 15:19:40 <Jo2> forgot to log in
Jan 30 15:21:07 <Jo2> Hmm, doesn't like my password anymore
Jan 30 15:21:15 <XorA> noidd: probably GPRS or later
Jan 30 15:21:38 <XorA> noidd: my HTC Wizard can surf and talk too
Jan 30 15:21:47 <Jo2> It talks? Nice. :D
Jan 30 15:22:50 <Jo2> has the developer launch been delayed, btw?
Jan 30 15:25:14 <l3010o> counter
Jan 30 15:25:14 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 08:03:18 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 15:26:26 <loufoque> when will the price of the neo1973 be cut in half ?
Jan 30 15:26:42 <l3010o> why say so?
Jan 30 15:27:53 <loufoque> $350 is still expensive for a phone
Jan 30 15:28:14 <parag0n> no its not
Jan 30 15:28:27 <l3010o> treat it as a smartphone
Jan 30 15:28:29 <l3010o> :)
Jan 30 15:28:35 <parag0n> with no carrier subsidies, thats really cheap for a smartphone
Jan 30 15:28:35 <loufoque> the last phone I bought cost me $1
Jan 30 15:29:19 <SpeedEvil> With subsidy?
Jan 30 15:29:20 <robtaylor> loufoque: you didn't actually buy it though, i'd be willing to bet
Jan 30 15:29:40 <loufoque> it was a phone though, not a smart phone
Jan 30 15:29:48 <l3010o> but $1 isn't the cost of the hardware
Jan 30 15:29:49 <SpeedEvil> How do I add an idea page on the wiki? I see no 'create phone' link.
Jan 30 15:30:10 <SpeedEvil> err
Jan 30 15:30:15 <SpeedEvil> 'create page'.
Jan 30 15:31:19 <l3010o> how to get an account in wiki.openmoko.org ??
Jan 30 15:31:32 <SpeedEvil> Click the 'login'/register link
Jan 30 15:32:47 <noidd> SpeedEvil: :-P
Jan 30 15:33:36 <l3010o> from where?
Jan 30 15:34:03 <LittleIdiot> *sigh* another entry to my ignore-list...
Jan 30 15:37:53 <stelt> anybody here know what sites the SMS-like-crazy youngsters hang out ?
Jan 30 15:38:40 <mintee> Still looking at a few weeks launch for the Neo1973 ?
Jan 30 15:38:52 <XorA> ~gibber
Jan 30 15:39:31 <mjr> counter
Jan 30 15:39:31 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 07:49:02 for source for all developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 2 days for any developers (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 6 days for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 15:40:03 <mintee> danka
Jan 30 15:40:29 <joebush> Will the Neo use the USB connection to a PC for network? Would be a shame if installed were forced through a GPRS connection.
Jan 30 15:40:49 <joebush> installs...
Jan 30 15:41:10 <mjr> there has been talk of usbnet from the start, dunno about the status of official support though
Jan 30 15:41:32 <yacc> joebush: it's a Linux box, so you can probably do all kinds of nifty connections: USB, BT, GPRS come immediatly to mind.
Jan 30 15:41:37 <fluffs> the current kernel gadget supoport sems to have problems with XP
Jan 30 15:41:41 <mjr> and there's BT, which, if not readily supported for BT connectivity, I'll hack together if somebody doesn't beat me to it
Jan 30 15:42:22 <mjr> for IP connectivity, I mean
Jan 30 15:44:10 <joebush> Sure, just wondering how it is configured by default.
Jan 30 15:45:09 <joebush> Don't want to have to install some basics over GPRS...it's really expensive here
Jan 30 15:45:22 <joebush> about $2 per MB
Jan 30 15:45:26 <mjr> I seem to recall, from the times when BT was not on the spec list, that FIC intended to make the GPRS usable from a computer via usbnet, so I'd suspect usbnet would be in per def. But I don't _know_.
Jan 30 15:45:42 <joebush> hope so :)
Jan 30 15:45:58 <aloril> you can always copy stuff to micro-SD
Jan 30 15:45:59 <mjr> also, recall that you can plug in a separately powered usb disk :]
Jan 30 15:46:10 <joebush> true!!!! didn't even occur to me
Jan 30 15:46:12 <joebush> nice
Jan 30 15:46:12 <aloril> probably highest bandwidth by far ;-)
Jan 30 15:46:18 <joebush> hehe, I agree
Jan 30 15:46:31 <XorA> even if its not the default option which I think it is, modprobe g-ether will be all thats required to make it work
Jan 30 15:47:54 <joebush> what is g-ether for?
Jan 30 15:48:04 <XorA> gadget ethernet
Jan 30 15:48:27 <joebush> umm, which gadget? hehe
Jan 30 15:49:00 <XorA> joebush: means your Neo looks like a usb ethernet device
Jan 30 15:49:47 <joebush> Oh, but that would make the device access internet though GPRS (for example) to connect a machine to the internet though the Neo
Jan 30 15:50:18 <joebush> Unless I've misunderstood
Jan 30 15:54:06 <mjr> doesn't it show as a regular network interface on the gadget side as well? As in, you can route/nat the other end forwards via gprs, or just use it for the gadget's internet connectivity, how you will?
Jan 30 15:57:22 <mjr> (of course, as long as the host end is willing to route as well)
Jan 30 15:58:13 <joebush> it's really a shame they didn't implement wireless in this version
Jan 30 15:58:55 <mjr> <dumb-mode> but they have two types of wireless in it, what're you talking about?
Jan 30 15:59:11 <fluffs> getting hold of open wifi chips is just hard
Jan 30 15:59:14 <joebush> 802.11
Jan 30 15:59:40 <joebush> 2 types?
Jan 30 15:59:58 <mjr> gsm/gprs (counts as one, really) and bluetooth
Jan 30 16:00:02 <joebush> oh, gprs....only thought of BT
Jan 30 16:00:47 <mjr> and yes, we'd all like it to do everything, but this is a good compromise for now, imao
Jan 30 16:01:44 <joebush> Well, I think missing wifi is a big disadvantage.
Jan 30 16:02:09 <joebush> could have had fun with olsr :D
Jan 30 16:03:11 <mjr> yeeeah, 'cause having our phones be olsr nodes wouldn't drain their batteries in half an hour ;)
Jan 30 16:03:39 <joebush> Hey, don't ruin ot for me :p
Jan 30 16:03:44 <joebush> it
Jan 30 16:04:07 <mjr> mind you, it _would_ be cool
Jan 30 16:04:14 <joebush> :D
Jan 30 16:04:26 <marcellus> "Why? Because we can."
Jan 30 16:04:29 <joebush> half hour of bliss  hehe
Jan 30 16:05:12 <mjr> an ad-hoc comms network that relays voip calls through other phones in the near vicinity, mm-m
Jan 30 16:05:23 <joebush> hehehe
Jan 30 16:05:39 <joebush> not a bad idea at all
Jan 30 16:06:12 <joebush> would it be possible to set up an ad-hoc network with bluetooth??
Jan 30 16:06:16 <mjr> (of course, then we'd use zrtp for security)
Jan 30 16:06:25 <mjr> yes it is actually
Jan 30 16:06:26 <joebush> hmmm
Jan 30 16:06:28 <mjr> though the range is lesser
Jan 30 16:06:39 <aloril> can always add battery powered usb hub + usb wifi dongle
Jan 30 16:06:57 <XorA> koen|wifi: not on a neo then :-D
Jan 30 16:06:59 <Tv> $mjr =~ s/n ad-.*k/ malware/;
Jan 30 16:07:16 <joebush> maybe the microSD port will be SDIO compatible and an adapter will be released? :o
Jan 30 16:07:58 <koen|wifi> XorA: :D
Jan 30 16:07:58 <Sketch> i don't think there is any linux support for SDIO
Jan 30 16:08:20 <mjr> joebush, have fun with your 64 meg on-board flash in that case
Jan 30 16:08:20 <joebush> mrj: plenty of space
Jan 30 16:08:36 <mjr> Tv, :]
Jan 30 16:08:36 <joebush> oooo
Jan 30 16:09:11 <mjr> Tv, I didn't mean by hacking them, but a kind of co-operative routing network where if you can reach your destination through the ad-hoc net, the call is routed there :]
Jan 30 16:09:29 <Sketch> http://tuxmobil.org/sdio_linux.html
Jan 30 16:09:29 <Tv> co-operative, yes yes ;)
Jan 30 16:09:37 <Ycros> I was just looking at an sdio wifi card about 20mins ago that was claiming "windows and linux support"
Jan 30 16:09:38 <Sketch> i guess there is at least some 3rd party sdio support now
Jan 30 16:10:02 <Tv> Ycros: that doesn't mean the drivers actually work, are open, or will work with your kernel
Jan 30 16:10:07 <Tv> +are
Jan 30 16:10:27 <Ycros> Tv: indeed.
Jan 30 16:10:29 <koen|wifi> sdio insists on pnp support, which is on the verge of being removed from the kernel
Jan 30 16:10:30 <joebush> if it's atheros based ....
Jan 30 16:11:08 <aloril> micro SD is under battery
Jan 30 16:11:34 <joebush> what?
Jan 30 16:11:56 <joebush> Doh!
Jan 30 16:11:56 <joebush> That was a bright move
Jan 30 16:11:58 <mjr> he said, "micro SD is under battery" :]
Jan 30 16:12:07 <Sketch> that'd be an interesting adapter
Jan 30 16:12:34 <joebush> Can't imagine why they would do that, to be honest
Jan 30 16:12:47 <joebush> That move has been slaughtered before with other vendors
Jan 30 16:12:55 <joebush> manufacturers
Jan 30 16:13:04 <Tv> joebush: because that's what the SiC has.
Jan 30 16:13:05 <Tv> SoC
Jan 30 16:13:33 <joebush> that shouldn't required certain placement of the SD reader
Jan 30 16:13:39 <mjr> actually it's not the SoC, but they do use a combo sim/microsd reader, which probably limit placement
Jan 30 16:13:43 <hrw|gone> space reason
Jan 30 16:14:03 <hrw|gone> cu
Jan 30 16:14:07 <mjr> hrw|gone, also possible, or are you official? :)
Jan 30 16:14:10 <joebush> well, makes it quite inconvenient for copying using the card
Jan 30 16:14:10 <Tv> ah, yes, not SoC
Jan 30 16:14:29 <Tv> s/SoC/pre-existing component used in the design/
Jan 30 16:14:29 <apt> Tv meant: ah, yes, not pre-existing component used in the design
Jan 30 16:14:41 <Tv> apt: silly
Jan 30 16:14:45 <mjr> hehe
Jan 30 16:14:52 <apt> somebody said silly was 'a good question, the answer to which is "yes, i am"'
Jan 30 16:15:02 <Tv> apt: yes, you are
Jan 30 16:15:22 <mjr> joebush, it does, and I do agree it would be nicer for some uses if it were more accessible
Jan 30 16:15:56 <mjr> however, what with usb, bt and gprs transfer options, the need to actually be swapping the card is mitigated somewhat, IMAO
Jan 30 16:16:09 <joebush> anyone know if it suppors the newer SD standard (the name escapes me) for card 4GB and greater
Jan 30 16:16:14 <Tv> I've never taken out the card in my current phone
Jan 30 16:16:19 <mjr> (also, one doesn't really want to tinker with those microsds more than absolutely necessary)
Jan 30 16:16:42 <mjr> Tv, I have, to swap for a bigger one ;]
Jan 30 16:16:42 <joebush> I'm afraid of losing it every time I take mine out :D
Jan 30 16:17:27 <joebush> I've had bigger pimples
Jan 30 16:17:29 <mjr> currently I have an n-gage, which happily exposes the sd - no, wait the mmc rather than sd - as usb-storage
Jan 30 16:18:24 <joebush> Hmm, that would fix it...
Jan 30 16:18:47 <mjr> though usb-storage is a bit kludigsh as it requires unmounting on the gadget side; I'd rather on the Neo that it'd serve eg. nfs over the usbnet :)
Jan 30 16:18:53 <joebush> selecting USB connection profile
Jan 30 16:19:29 <joebush> USBdrive mode opening the flash and SD
Jan 30 16:19:46 <mjr> yes, that would be a good option still, for the sd
Jan 30 16:19:55 <mjr> for the flash, not so sure, because of said unmounting issue :]
Jan 30 16:20:12 <koen|wifi_> it does force the phone to unmount the card
Jan 30 16:20:14 <joebush> It's seems so obvious now I have to assume they've thought of it.
Jan 30 16:20:47 <mjr> incidentally
Jan 30 16:21:13 <mjr> if one hooks up a camera to the unpowered Neo, with Neo in host mode
Jan 30 16:21:44 <mjr> would the camera generally happily operate on its own power and serve up images over the usb, or do they tend to require power via usb when they're communicating?
Jan 30 16:22:04 <joebush> well, if it doesn't have an external power source...
Jan 30 16:22:06 <Tv> mjr: depends on camera
Jan 30 16:22:14 <mjr> the obvious answer would seem to be "sure they'd work", but as unpowered usb is somewhat nonstandard, I'm wary
Jan 30 16:22:28 <joebush> haven't heard of a cam yet that worked unpowered.
Jan 30 16:22:28 <mjr> Tv, yeah...
Jan 30 16:22:48 <mjr> joebush, I meant a digital pocket camera that has its own internal power source
Jan 30 16:23:01 <joebush> Ok, in that case it should be ok
Jan 30 16:23:46 <mjr> yeah, that's my gut feeling too, but the camera might not expect to be plugged into an unpowered usb port
Jan 30 16:24:01 <mjr> so, perhaps the "check before buying" rule will apply ;]
Jan 30 16:24:08 <joebush> possible, but what about an unpowered usb hub?
Jan 30 16:24:19 <joebush> shouldn't be any different
Jan 30 16:24:34 <joebush> if it isn't supported by the camera I would be a bit disappointed
Jan 30 16:24:38 <mjr> they do still relay power from uplink, don't they? just can only provide in total what the uplink provides
Jan 30 16:24:50 <mjr> (minus overhead)
Jan 30 16:25:06 <joebush> anything is possible, I guess....
Jan 30 16:25:26 <joebush> would be disappointing, nonetheless.
Jan 30 16:25:40 <mjr> Yes it would. Still, try before you buy etc.
Jan 30 16:25:41 <joebush> Don't have one now to try though
Jan 30 16:26:07 <mjr> I do. Have a camera. But no Neo ;I
Jan 30 16:26:27 <joebush> ahh, but you can unplug a usb hub and see if it works oujt
Jan 30 16:26:27 <mjr> (an old crappy cam, not really useful anymore, as battery almost useless also, but anyway)
Jan 30 16:26:34 <Tv> mjr: hmm, an usb adapter that cuts the power pins
Jan 30 16:27:04 <mjr> Tv, that would do it
Jan 30 16:27:28 <mjr> joebush, that I wouldn't count on, as the hub may want its outside power for basic operation too, and besides, don't have one :]
Jan 30 16:28:07 <mjr> anyway, I'll wait for my Neo (in phase 1), was just pre-wondering
Jan 30 16:28:13 <joebush> mine works unpowered at least
Jan 30 16:28:32 <joebush> as far as I recall....
Jan 30 16:28:53 <joebush> been interesting....thanks for the talk 
Jan 30 16:28:55 <mjr> joebush, if it works as passive, then it might relay power from the uplink, so again not a valid comparison unless you know what exactly is going on in the hub...
Jan 30 16:29:09 <joebush> hmm, true enough
Jan 30 16:29:24 <joebush> then again....
Jan 30 16:29:32 <joebush> the Neo claims to be an unpowered host
Jan 30 16:29:43 <mjr> now, if someone has a nokia 770 they could try it...
Jan 30 16:29:44 <joebush> so it would have to have the same functionality as an unpowered hub
Jan 30 16:29:49 <mjr> (also having unpowered host)
Jan 30 16:29:57 <mjr> no it wouldn't
Jan 30 16:29:58 <joebush> otherwise it is like the Universal
Jan 30 16:30:15 <joebush> which won't work as host because of the power concern
Jan 30 16:31:08 <joebush> Which is why they don't claim host functionality
Jan 30 16:31:21 <joebush> which the Neo apparently does
Jan 30 16:31:23 <mjr> mm
Jan 30 16:31:38 <joebush> Just my 2 cents......
Jan 30 16:31:41 <joebush> gotta run
Jan 30 16:31:44 <joebush> thanks again
Jan 30 16:31:54 <mjr> well, neo doesn't claim standard usb host func., since that would require power
Jan 30 16:32:01 <mjr> therefore qualified with "unpowered"
Jan 30 16:32:17 <joebush> right...like a hub ;)
Jan 30 16:32:25 <joebush> unpowered hub
Jan 30 16:32:41 <mjr> and therefore raising these questions about how other gadgets will deal with connecting to an unpowered host even if they have internal power
Jan 30 16:32:53 <joebush> UYsing a powered HUB
Jan 30 16:33:09 <mjr> 'cause, you know, if some smart coder has put in a check there "if getting power from usb, then go into usb communications mode"
Jan 30 16:33:14 <mjr> we're screwed :]
Jan 30 16:33:15 <joebush> Otherwise the Neo couldn't even connect to a usb pen
Jan 30 16:33:50 <mjr> and the coder wouldn't really be wrong, since standard usb hosts have to provide power
Jan 30 16:33:59 <mjr> just... unflexible
Jan 30 16:34:20 <mjr> but that's enough of that
Jan 30 16:34:35 <joebush> I don't think unpowered necessarily means no power....but this is a new area
Jan 30 16:35:04 <mjr> will be checking things out with available gadgets during phase 1 :]
Jan 30 16:35:06 <joebush> I think (hope) things will work out
Jan 30 16:35:17 <joebush> hehe, can't wait for the launch
Jan 30 16:35:25 <joebush> march :(
Jan 30 16:35:28 <mjr> I do too suppose that most self-powered gadgets would work
Jan 30 16:35:41 <mjr> just that if some don't, it's not really their fault
Jan 30 16:36:07 <joebush> webcams though a powered hub too...things should be just fine. :) We'll see soon enough
Jan 30 16:36:29 <joebush> really gotta run..... :
Jan 30 16:36:29 <mjr> yeah, a powered hub in between should make things all right, of course
Jan 30 16:36:31 <mjr> go, run, shoo
Jan 30 16:36:39 <joebush> thanks :D
Jan 30 16:37:25 <loufoque> you want to carry around a powered usb hub, a webcam, and an external hdd ?
Jan 30 16:37:44 <mjr> (hmm, strictly speaking, any ol' hub wouldn't probably _have_ to work with an unpowered host either, but it won't probably be a problem to find a working one in practice...)
Jan 30 16:38:12 <mjr> no :]
Jan 30 16:39:46 <mjr> which incidentally started this, as I was wondering whether a self-powered gadget, such as a digital pocket cam, would on the average be willing to talk to an unpowered host, such as the neo
Jan 30 16:40:18 <mjr> which, I think, concluded with something like "seems likely, but since it's non-standard, better watch out a bit"
Jan 30 16:42:32 <SpeedEvil> Look for the USB 'on the go' standard.
Jan 30 16:42:34 <SpeedEvil> AIUI.
Jan 30 16:43:00 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Jan 30 16:43:06 <SpeedEvil> I happen to have a datapoint.
Jan 30 16:43:24 <SpeedEvil> I have an unpowered USB port on my cardbus PCMCIA card.
Jan 30 16:43:38 <SpeedEvil> And a powered belkin hub.
Jan 30 16:44:04 <SpeedEvil> If I plug the hub into the port, it is not recognised until I connect the +5V supply.
Jan 30 16:44:19 <SpeedEvil> At which point the belkin hub wakes up, and will talk to the host.
Jan 30 16:44:25 <SpeedEvil> Even if power is then removed.
Jan 30 16:44:46 <mjr> ack
Jan 30 16:45:15 <mjr> and I was under the impression that usb on-the-go didn't adress completely unpowered hosts, but this may be false as it was not gathered from primary sources
Jan 30 16:45:23 <SpeedEvil> I don't have any other powered hubs.
Jan 30 16:46:12 <SpeedEvil> AIUI, it's not completely unpowered though.
Jan 30 16:46:32 <SpeedEvil> It has no VCC line, but the data lines are normal for a host/device
Jan 30 16:46:39 <SpeedEvil> I don't know how that works.
Jan 30 16:52:31 <mjr> from a quick usb-otg-read, seems that it must provide at least 8mA power as host (and use the new mini-AB socket, which IIRC Neo doesn't)
Jan 30 16:52:34 <mjr> ah well
Jan 30 16:53:45 <mjr> I don't mind the non-standardness here as there are practical reasons for it, and most of the time the device is used in gadget mode anyway, the slightly nonstandard host mode being just a bonus :]
Jan 30 16:58:44 * tuxmaniac is just getting excited about this project..
Jan 30 17:02:31 <aloril> counter
Jan 30 17:02:32 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 06:26:01 (11.27 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.27 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.27 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 17:02:45 * aloril changed so that month==calendar month
Jan 30 17:03:13 <aloril> though 2007-01-10 is counted as 1 month + additional less than 24h time
Jan 30 17:04:03 <mjr> Almost 40 days? Life is not worth living anymore! Where's my kayak?
Jan 30 17:04:09 <aloril> and 2007-01-11 00:01 is then 3 weeks and 6 days 23:59:59 ;-)
Jan 30 17:04:19 <MetaBookfoziS> for all developers means anybody can buy that?
Jan 30 17:04:27 <mjr> MetaBookfoziS, yes, it means that
Jan 30 17:04:29 <aloril> MetaBookfoziS: yes
Jan 30 17:04:36 <MetaBookfoziS> cool.
Jan 30 17:04:53 <mjr> it juts emphasizes that it's aimed at developers rather than end users, and everything might not be as smooth as in an end-user product
Jan 30 17:04:58 <mjr> just
Jan 30 17:05:28 <aloril> that preorder bit: Sean said in some mail in community mailing list that there will be preorders
Jan 30 17:05:34 <koen|wifi_> mickeyl: http://www.tigert.com/archives/2007/01/30/new-maemo-development-theme/
Jan 30 17:05:39 <MetaBookfoziS> i need to work in the next 1m1w:/ to get one:D
Jan 30 17:05:45 <koen|wifi_> mickeyl: " Install cacher first, the theme depends on it. (It generates some gtkrc cache that speeds things up when starting applications..)"
Jan 30 17:15:27 <mjr> apropos voip, noticed that there's a free zrtp implementation in Twinkle; http://www.twinklephone.com/
Jan 30 17:16:21 <mjr> as zrtp is "the shit" for open secure voip, one would need that for the moko :] Wonder if I've too much time...
Jan 30 17:23:06 <mjr> ah, the stuff comes from gnu's ccrtp library originally
Jan 30 17:23:18 <PierreTramo> hi everybody!
Jan 30 17:33:35 <nonick01> a question: openmoko will be only for smartphones or can be also be used for normal phones designs?
Jan 30 17:35:38 <PierreTramo> nonick01: doesn't depend on the open source project, i guess
Jan 30 17:36:18 <PierreTramo> nonick01: but as it's based on a linux kernel, it's supposed to run on "powerful" hardware
Jan 30 17:37:06 <PierreTramo> nonick01: powerfull hardware being crap after a few year :)
Jan 30 17:37:51 <yacc> nonick01: define smartphone ;)
Jan 30 17:38:49 <mjr> yeah well
Jan 30 17:39:00 <mjr> if the phone can run openmoko, I'd probably call it smart ;)
Jan 30 17:39:20 <nonick01> I mean if openmoko will have support for non-touchscreen phones for future low-end phones
Jan 30 17:40:15 <mjr> good question; personally in a guessing capacity I'd say it probably isn't the first order of business to go non-touchscreen, as the interface seems to be rather touchy-oriented
Jan 30 17:40:34 <PierreTramo> yep it seems :)
Jan 30 17:41:37 <stefan_schmidt> nonick01: There are already ideas about non-Touchscreen phones. But it is still needed that linux kernel can run on it.
Jan 30 17:41:43 <mjr> ie. would require major tweaking; not impossible, of course, as nothing is on a properly open platform
Jan 30 17:42:14 <stefan_schmidt> nonick01: Phones with windows ce and symbian have better chances then normal feature phones.
Jan 30 17:43:12 <PierreTramo> how can we work on the interface now?
Jan 30 17:43:19 <PierreTramo> is there some "emulator" to work on the GUI?
Jan 30 17:43:46 <mjr> counter
Jan 30 17:43:46 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 05:44:46 (11.24 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.24 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.24 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 17:43:56 <mjr> the source will be released on phase 0
Jan 30 17:44:16 <mjr> after that, you should be able to run it with reasonable precision on eg. xoo and, if necessary, qemu
Jan 30 17:44:43 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: Just compile it for x86 and work with it on you host. Perhaps with xoo. Afterwards compile for arm and that's it.
Jan 30 17:44:56 <mjr> (qemu if using native arm binaries and not x86-compiled)
Jan 30 17:50:11 <yacc> ??xoo
Jan 30 17:50:41 <stefan_schmidt> yacc: http://projects.o-hand.com/xoo
Jan 30 17:50:58 <yacc> stefan_schmidt: thx
Jan 30 17:51:08 <stefan_schmidt> np
Jan 30 17:51:24 <yacc> stefan_schmidt: Xnest on steroids ;)
Jan 30 17:51:39 <stefan_schmidt> :)
Jan 30 17:53:04 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: is there a wiki for the project?
Jan 30 17:53:32 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: topic
Jan 30 17:53:41 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: thx, sorry
Jan 30 17:53:49 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: didn't find the time to read it, i answered directly :)
Jan 30 17:53:56 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Jan 30 17:54:49 <PierreTramo> wow, $350 :(
Jan 30 17:55:07 <PierreTramo> too expensive for me :D
Jan 30 17:55:48 <yacc> PierreTramo: it's not that expensive for an unlocked smartphone without a contract.
Jan 30 17:59:00 <PierreTramo> yacc: yup, but i can't afford it :)
Jan 30 17:59:17 <PierreTramo> yacc: i just can't...
Jan 30 17:59:54 <PierreTramo> yacc: but i'll have fun developing software for it ;)
Jan 30 18:00:00 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: If xou can wait until september, you could have luck and find a provider that give it to you with a contract
Jan 30 18:00:18 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: yup, i can dream :)
Jan 30 18:00:21 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: i'm from france
Jan 30 18:00:35 <yacc> stefan_schmidt: the question is if it will be that widely in circulation.
Jan 30 18:00:41 <PierreTramo> bluetooth got included... great!
Jan 30 18:00:54 <yacc> PierreTramo: What's the VAT level in .fr?
Jan 30 18:01:07 <PierreTramo> 19.6
Jan 30 18:01:47 <stefan_schmidt> yacc: I have really no idea how many provider will pick it up. That's marketing stuff. :)
Jan 30 18:01:56 <ynezz> it'll be available for $350 in EU also?
Jan 30 18:02:13 <PierreTramo> ynezz: worldwide
Jan 30 18:02:27 <PierreTramo> ynezz: so it will be ~ 280eur plus shipping
Jan 30 18:02:56 <yacc> PierreTramo: Don't forget the VAT.
Jan 30 18:02:58 <ynezz> 262EUR
Jan 30 18:03:03 <PierreTramo> yacc: thx
Jan 30 18:03:11 <ynezz> if it's in EU we don't need to pay VAT
Jan 30 18:03:12 <yacc> PierreTramo: sorry ;)
Jan 30 18:03:24 <yacc> ynezz: yeah, but the importer needs to pay the VAT for you ;)
Jan 30 18:03:32 <yacc> ynezz: it's $350 in .tw 
Jan 30 18:03:32 <PierreTramo> http://www.google.com/search?hl=en&q=%28350*1.196%29+USD+in+EUR
Jan 30 18:03:51 <PierreTramo> yacc: i guess it's 350 plus taxes
Jan 30 18:04:00 <yacc> $350 plus taxes.
Jan 30 18:04:01 <PierreTramo> (350 * 1.19600) * U.S. dollar = 323.918595 Euros
Jan 30 18:04:13 <yacc> USD is about 0.8 EUR or so. 
Jan 30 18:04:35 <yacc> (I did not check the current rate, these vary, but it has been so for the last year more or less like that :( )
Jan 30 18:04:47 * yacc bills in USD, but has to pay EUR for everything :(
Jan 30 18:04:54 <ynezz> you don't need to pay a VAT in .fr
Jan 30 18:04:56 <ynezz> do you?
Jan 30 18:04:58 <PierreTramo> 0.77381413
Jan 30 18:05:11 <PierreTramo> USD 1 = EUR 0.774 ;)
Jan 30 18:05:16 <ynezz> if it will be available from .de reseller
Jan 30 18:05:17 <PierreTramo> 350*1.196*0.77381413
Jan 30 18:05:17 <PierreTramo> 323.91859481
Jan 30 18:05:34 <yacc> ynezz: naturally, VAT exists in all EU countries ;)
Jan 30 18:05:38 <PierreTramo> ynezz: nop, if the deutch VAT is payed ;)
Jan 30 18:05:42 <PierreTramo> ynezz: and it's 20%
Jan 30 18:05:54 <PierreTramo> ynezz: not 19.6 :)
Jan 30 18:06:03 <yacc> PierreTramo: the german one is 19%, the austrian is 20%.
Jan 30 18:06:44 <ynezz> i think, that you can get .de VAT back if you buy one Neo for personal use
Jan 30 18:07:22 <yacc> nope.
Jan 30 18:07:37 <ynezz> and I would need to pay just .cz VAT for it
Jan 30 18:08:03 <yacc> if you are from another EU country, you can either get the VAT back (or not pay it at all) if you are a VAT-paying company, or you can pay the VAT of the country of origin if you are a private person.
Jan 30 18:08:50 <yacc> ynezz: .cz is part of .eu => so you will pay the VAT of the country of the distributor if you are a private person. Or the .cz one if you got an UID number.
Jan 30 18:08:50 <PierreTramo> who will the "limited availability" of 2007-02-11 be for?
Jan 30 18:09:10 <PierreTramo> i can get one from my company if i present a good project for it, like i did with the nokia 770 :)
Jan 30 18:09:35 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: Sounds like a good plan.
Jan 30 18:10:34 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: yep, but it's not very honnest, in that case
Jan 30 18:11:42 * yacc wonders how fast navit will be ported ;)
Jan 30 18:12:17 <alphaone> We plan on using it to get ot FOSDEM :-)
Jan 30 18:12:17 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: heh, but 350$ are not to much for a company.
Jan 30 18:12:37 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: i don't know the english name
Jan 30 18:12:43 <PierreTramo> stefan_schmidt: it's a lab, in a university
Jan 30 18:12:53 <PierreTramo> http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Ideas/3DViewport?highlight=%28OpenMoko%2FIdeas%29
Jan 30 18:13:02 <PierreTramo> i don't get which sensors could do the job !?
Jan 30 18:14:10 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: Ah university lab. They even have money for this kind of gadgets. :)
Jan 30 18:14:33 <ynezz> PierreTramo: it's just one of the ideas...
Jan 30 18:14:35 <alphaone> PierreTramo: Seems like no sensors available in the Neo
Jan 30 18:14:41 <stefan_schmidt> PierreTramo: Many of the ideas are just that, ideas.
Jan 30 18:17:06 <mjr> yeah, some require... exotic hardware
Jan 30 18:17:49 <mjr> like an fpga or a v8
Jan 30 18:20:27 <ynezz> if openpcd had BT it would be nice to read RFID tags using Neo :p
Jan 30 18:23:18 <MetaBookfoziS> fsck rfid.
Jan 30 18:32:20 <noidd> man, I should have bookmarked xkr47's counter
Jan 30 18:32:22 <noidd> counter
Jan 30 18:32:23 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 04:56:09 (11.21 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.21 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.21 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 18:33:51 <xkr47> noidd, yes you should ;)
Jan 30 18:33:59 <xkr47> noidd, doesn't your browser remember ?
Jan 30 18:42:34 <noidd> Got the link
Jan 30 18:42:43 <noidd> and no, my browser doesn't because it purges all history, logs, cookies etc on exit
Jan 30 18:42:54 <noidd> I shut my nmachine down every night when i leave work
Jan 30 18:43:00 <noidd> and I use encrypted filesystems
Jan 30 18:43:11 <noidd> my bookmarks are on del.icio.us
Jan 30 18:43:18 <noidd> http://del.icio.us/noidd
Jan 30 18:43:20 <noidd> in fact
Jan 30 18:43:21 <noidd> :-)
Jan 30 18:43:37 <leventhal> noidd puts my paranoia to shame
Jan 30 18:43:41 <xkr47> heh, Bookmarks Unencrypted ;)
Jan 30 18:43:46 <xkr47> leventhal, :)
Jan 30 18:44:04 <noidd> Those are published bookmarks
Jan 30 18:44:07 <noidd> I know about those
Jan 30 18:44:14 <noidd> what data my applications cache, 
Jan 30 18:44:16 <leventhal> I just used compusec
Jan 30 18:44:21 <noidd> lets just say I don't want that explored by work :-)
Jan 30 18:44:51 <xkr47> noidd, oh no, you've bookmarked maemo.org ;)
Jan 30 18:45:57 <xkr47> noidd, got any luxeon leds ?-)
Jan 30 18:47:02 <noidd> maybe :_)
Jan 30 18:47:12 <PierreTramo> v8=??
Jan 30 18:47:17 <PierreTramo> fpga, i see..
Jan 30 18:47:51 <noidd> I bet you clicked the latex tag and was disapointed :-
Jan 30 18:47:54 <noidd> :-D
Jan 30 18:48:09 <PierreTramo> ?
Jan 30 18:48:12 <PierreTramo> sorry?
Jan 30 18:48:24 <PierreTramo> nop, it was said sooner on that channel
Jan 30 18:48:29 <noidd> xkr is browsing my del.icio.us tags
Jan 30 19:08:05 <Morgret>    hardware; the HTC Forseer DVB-H TV phone, runs on Windows Mobile 5.0
Jan 30 19:08:05 <Morgret>    and uses the [ VIDIA GoForce 5500 GPU same as Samsung's SGHP910"
Jan 30 19:08:22 <Morgret> Hmmm, that paste messed up.
Jan 30 19:09:09 <Morgret> But the point about it was, it's an HTC phone with 3D done by nVidia Go 5500, and THC is the previous spinoff company from FIC.
Jan 30 19:09:29 <Morgret> s/THC/HTC/
Jan 30 19:09:30 <apt> Morgret meant: But the point about it was, it's an HTC phone with 3D done by nVidia Go 5500, and HTC is the previous spinoff company from FIC.
Jan 30 19:09:37 <koen> a goforge isn't a real geforge
Jan 30 19:09:47 <koen> it's just a rebadged mediaq
Jan 30 19:10:53 <Morgret> That would be a good thing ... seeing as GeForce is closed ;-)
Jan 30 19:11:29 <koen> mediaq used to have proper docs online
Jan 30 19:11:38 <Elrond> What is this htc thing anyway? I heard about it on the lugradio interview.
Jan 30 19:11:40 <koen> but those vanished after nvidia bought them
Jan 30 19:12:07 <Elrond> koen - Oh, we love it. :-(
Jan 30 19:12:56 <Elrond> counter
Jan 30 19:12:56 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 04:15:35 (11.18 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.18 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.18 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 19:14:43 <Morgret> HTC is a *massive* manufacturer of Win-based mobiles.  The number of national companies that rebadge HTC products is just phenomenal.
Jan 30 19:14:55 <noidd> e/clear
Jan 30 19:15:16 <noidd> I'm wondering how the display on the neo compares to the Zaurus c760
Jan 30 19:15:24 <Morgret> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/High_Tech_Computer
Jan 30 19:15:24 <noidd> its the same res
Jan 30 19:15:26 <noidd> but i'm guessing smaller
Jan 30 19:15:47 <Morgret> Look at the list of phones at the bottom of that page.  Any ring a bell? ;-)
Jan 30 19:16:52 <noidd> should they?
Jan 30 19:17:07 <Elrond> *checking*
Jan 30 19:18:32 <Morgret> Well they'll only ring a bell if you've looked at brand names in local shops. ;-)  The point was, a large proportion of branded phones are just HTCs.  And that's a spinoff from FIC.
Jan 30 19:19:03 <Elrond> yeah.
Jan 30 19:22:16 <Elrond> Morgret - FIC is not mentioned on the wikipedia-page, no?
Jan 30 19:22:42 <noidd> yeah - that's true
Jan 30 19:23:11 <snatches> so how many phones does FIC mass produce?
Jan 30 19:23:30 <MetaBookfoziS> http://www.terminal.hu/cikk.php?article_id=103405&ac=2
Jan 30 19:24:21 <MetaBookfoziS> http://www.mobilegazette.com/t-mobile-ameo-htc-athena-07x01x27.htm
Jan 30 19:24:24 <MetaBookfoziS> in english
Jan 30 19:24:35 <snatches> ty
Jan 30 19:25:19 <MetaBookfoziS> its only 2X expensiver than neo, but 625mhz, 3mp cam, qwerty keyboard, big screen
Jan 30 19:25:24 <MetaBookfoziS> and windows mobile://
Jan 30 19:25:35 <thedaniel> well maybe it can be persuaded to run openmoko
Jan 30 19:27:16 <MetaBookfoziS> and wifi:/ oh my gear:/
Jan 30 19:32:18 <noidd> I wonder if all these phones would have appeared if it wasn't for the iPhone keynote
Jan 30 19:32:35 <noidd> ie - how many manufactureres actually sped up movement to market because of that
Jan 30 19:32:45 <pH5> noidd: probably none
Jan 30 19:33:31 <Stephmw> noidd: I've been quoted 18 months from idea to retail for brand new designs (inc software)
Jan 30 19:33:55 <noidd> Wow, 18 months is a long time
Jan 30 19:34:09 <noidd> thats a hell of a latency to play catchup in
Jan 30 19:34:34 <Stephmw> there's certainly a lot to do
Jan 30 19:37:31 <PierreTramo> is there some kind of ARM board with (ethernet||usb2)&&sound i/o available on the market for "final customers"?
Jan 30 19:38:10 <fluffs> PierreTramo: what sort of arm are you after?
Jan 30 19:39:06 <fluffs> and do you mean usb2 full-speed or high-speed?
Jan 30 19:39:30 <PierreTramo> usb2 like 2.0, 480mbps, if possible
Jan 30 19:39:49 <PierreTramo> well, the other one (which i don't know speed) would be funny to play with too :)
Jan 30 19:40:03 <PierreTramo> (and yes, i know i'm crazy)
Jan 30 19:41:16 <mjr> 480M is the high-speed part of the usb2 spec, yeah
Jan 30 19:41:56 <mjr> (it's so fun that technically, 11M usb devices can be called "usb2" (well, if they otherwise follow the spec), just merely "full" and not "high" speed
Jan 30 19:43:35 <Morgret> Um, not quite.  USB1.1 devices are *compatible* with USB2.0 full-speed ... but they're not USB2.0 devices themselves.
Jan 30 19:44:52 <mjr> correct, hence the parenthesis, which could've been formulated better, admittedly
Jan 30 19:45:12 <mjr> the point was that one can be usb 2 compliant without supporting "high speed"
Jan 30 19:45:38 <Sketch> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Usb#Transfer_speed
Jan 30 19:45:39 <Sketch> Though Hi-Speed devices are commonly referred to as "USB 2.0" and advertised as "up to 480 Mb/s", not all USB 2.0 devices are Hi-Speed.
Jan 30 19:45:58 <PierreTramo> well
Jan 30 19:46:03 <PierreTramo> fluffs: ARM7+
Jan 30 19:46:23 <PierreTramo> anyway, ethernet would be great
Jan 30 19:46:40 <PierreTramo> and usb2 something more, actually (even if it could be enough, without any ethernet)
Jan 30 19:46:58 <yacc> Morgret: it get's even more complicated when you take USB2 hubs into account, as the hub needs to translate.
Jan 30 19:48:00 <[g2]> PierreTramo are you looking for an OEM board ?
Jan 30 19:48:11 <PierreTramo> [g2]: what do you mean by OEM?
Jan 30 19:48:32 <[g2]> a board one includes in their product from another vendor
Jan 30 19:48:49 <PierreTramo> why not!?
Jan 30 19:49:02 * [g2] doesn't understand what you meant by "final customer"
Jan 30 19:49:14 <PierreTramo> i mean something I can buy :D
Jan 30 19:49:36 <[g2]> there are tons of boards avilable, it's really a matter of price/features
Jan 30 19:49:40 <PierreTramo> and for something cheaper than 500$ :)
Jan 30 19:49:44 <PierreTramo> yep, exactly
Jan 30 19:49:50 <PierreTramo> what i found was expensive
Jan 30 19:50:10 <PierreTramo> considering what i'm looking for, can you tell me an approximate price?
Jan 30 19:50:13 <Sketch> if you are looking for cheap, you might better off hacking up an old PDA
Jan 30 19:50:18 <Sketch> +be
Jan 30 19:50:29 <yacc> PierreTramo: Well, you can probably for experiments buy some route or other gadget ;)
Jan 30 19:50:41 <[g2]> well pretty cheap would be a NSLU2 with custom firmware
Jan 30 19:50:46 <PierreTramo> sound i/o + ethernet + usb2 ? :D
Jan 30 19:50:49 <[g2]> and an USB 2.0 ausio adapter
Jan 30 19:50:56 <yacc> PierreTramo: Sound IO can be done via USB.
Jan 30 19:51:09 <PierreTramo> [g2]: the idea is to work on the firmware :)
Jan 30 19:51:09 <[g2]> it's got 100Mbs ethernet, two USB 2.0 high-speed ports
Jan 30 19:51:20 <[g2]> PierreTramo that's all doen
Jan 30 19:51:22 <[g2]> done
Jan 30 19:51:39 <[g2]> we've been hacking on that device for the last 2.5 years
Jan 30 19:51:43 <PierreTramo> [g2]: no no, i'm looking for that board to PLAY :)
Jan 30 19:51:48 <Morgret> There are still a few bugs in Linux USB drivers, hope they don't hit us on Neo.  Specifically ehci_hcd gets bandwidth calculations wrong, and refuses to do full-speed audio between a 1.1 and a 2.0 interface if other USB devices have registered.  Whereas same two devices work fine in WinXP.
Jan 30 19:52:17 <Morgret> That's relevant because many of us will be plugging in the Neo to our USB2.0 ports.
Jan 30 19:52:58 <PierreTramo> nslu2 is funny, it's true :)
Jan 30 19:53:44 <xkr47> Morgret, do you aim to do full speed audio ?-)
Jan 30 19:54:13 <Morgret> xkr47: I don't aim to do that on Neo, no, but others might.
Jan 30 19:57:17 <yacc> Morgret: the Neo is only USB1.1 ;)
Jan 30 19:57:58 <Morgret> I know.  We're talking about USB2.0's "full-speed", not high-speed.  Full speed is just USB1.1 data rates.
Jan 30 19:58:15 <fluffs> hmm, i know the s3c2440 has no isochronous support... not sure if the 2410 had it or wether it worked
Jan 30 20:00:54 <Morgret> The ehci_hcd bug only manifests when you plug in a USB1.1 device (like the Neo) to a USB2.0 host port, and the EHCI tries to setup an urb for a full-speed channel when other (low rate) interfaces are already registered.  It's just a bug, it's confused.  Same host and same 1.1 device work fine in WinXP, so clearly there is bandwidth on the wire.
Jan 30 20:01:42 <voidans> wow
Jan 30 20:01:45 <voidans> thats a large channel.
Jan 30 20:02:08 <voidans> how do i get my hands on a development device? :)
Jan 30 20:02:18 <Morgret> In fact, it shouldn't even be checking for bandwidth usage with that kernel option turned off.  But it does anyway, hehe.
Jan 30 20:02:28 <mjr> voidans, in March
Jan 30 20:02:42 <voidans> :(
Jan 30 20:03:20 <voidans> nobody has an extra one, huh? 
Jan 30 20:03:21 <voidans> :>
Jan 30 20:03:36 <Morgret> voidans: But dev environment will be public soon, so we can work on the OE/xoo emulater until March.
Jan 30 20:04:01 <voidans> whats that?
Jan 30 20:04:15 <Morgret> dev environment
Jan 30 20:04:21 <voidans> oh i see
Jan 30 20:04:45 <voidans> just gonna be a vmware image or something?
Jan 30 20:04:58 <Morgret> OpenEmbedded
Jan 30 20:05:08 <voidans> hence OE
Jan 30 20:05:12 <voidans> ;)
Jan 30 20:05:29 <Morgret> yup
Jan 30 20:27:27 <eLocus> ééé鸸¸¸¸¸¸¸
Jan 30 20:27:35 <eLocus> sorry
Jan 30 20:29:22 <eLocus> anybody here speak Russian?
Jan 30 20:29:43 <xorAxAx> da
Jan 30 20:30:13 <eLocus> êîãäà âàùå ïîÿâèòüñÿ ýíòîò äåâàéñ?
Jan 30 20:30:26 <Ganneff> !ru
Jan 30 20:30:31 <Ganneff> err. echan. :)
Jan 30 20:30:33 <eLocus> Neo1973
Jan 30 20:40:38 <Morgret> Any natural born bloggers among us?  We'll need 2 or 3 good non-technical writers in the Neo/OM community I think to chronicle what's happening, what things are being worked on, the latest arguments in the lists, news from FIC, emacs vs vi, etc etc. :P  In an entertaining style to beat Apple in the hype/buzz market. :P
Jan 30 20:42:05 <alphaone> He, LOL
Jan 30 20:42:49 <alphaone> I just started mine. And I wouldn't call myself natural born blogger. More like natural lazy :-)
Jan 30 20:45:33 <Elrond> I'm a non-blogger and technical. ;)
Jan 30 20:55:58 <Morgret> Oh, I'm sure we have lots of bloggers among us (not me), but mostly technical.  And for the majority of phone customers, that's not just not buzzy, but a total turn off :P
Jan 30 20:56:41 <Elrond> Right.
Jan 30 20:57:13 <Morgret> And needs writing style.  My level of writing is better suited to man pages, hehe.
Jan 30 20:57:31 <Elrond> *G*
Jan 30 20:57:49 <NatureTM> I just saw an article about the Neo1973... I can't wait to get one
Jan 30 20:58:09 <Elrond> NatureTM - You have to wait at least 6 weeks.
Jan 30 20:58:11 <meus> NatureTM: what article?
Jan 30 20:58:28 <NatureTM> http://www.google.com/url?sa=t&ct=res&cd=3&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww.linuxdevices.com%2Fnews%2FNS2986976174.html&ei=erW_RcOUGpCajgHYzNS0Bw&usg=__nmvl1taNE5iiwKdAh3TQ5ZvrHYE=&sig2=iQUvg2bhvpFI8u_psxV9tQ
Jan 30 20:58:33 <NatureTM> what a link!!!
Jan 30 20:58:46 <meus> google powah!
Jan 30 20:58:50 <NatureTM> I googled cheap linux device
Jan 30 20:58:57 <NatureTM> oh
Jan 30 20:59:07 <NatureTM> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2986976174.html
Jan 30 20:59:11 <NatureTM> there we go
Jan 30 20:59:47 <NatureTM> I was thinking about getting a gumstix and was looking for alternatives
Jan 30 21:00:45 <NatureTM> is the 6 weeks for devs only or the public?
Jan 30 21:00:53 <Morgret> "Hackable" is almost the wrong word for the Neo/OM.  When you can ssh into it out of the factory, it doesn't need hacking. ;-)
Jan 30 21:01:13 <NatureTM> I was wondering if that was included
Jan 30 21:01:15 <NatureTM> good
Jan 30 21:01:26 <NatureTM> too bad no wifi or ethernet
Jan 30 21:01:52 <NatureTM> ssh through usb?
Jan 30 21:01:53 <mjr> but bt and usbnet :]
Jan 30 21:01:58 <NatureTM> k
Jan 30 21:02:06 <NatureTM> cool
Jan 30 21:02:09 <mjr> anyway, can you ssh into it out of the factory?
Jan 30 21:02:09 <NatureTM> I'm excited
Jan 30 21:02:39 <mjr> I'd think sshd wouldn't be in the default install, though it would admittedly make sense for the developer-directed phases 0-1
Jan 30 21:02:42 <Elrond> mjr - At least, we'd expect that.
Jan 30 21:02:46 <Morgret> I wonder if we'll get any hardware hacks to actually put some power on the USB connector.  Don't need the full spec power, just a little!
Jan 30 21:03:29 <mjr> Yeah. Well, now that I think of it, maybe I expect it too. I just don't expect it to remain in the consumer version (per default, installable sure)
Jan 30 21:03:44 <pH5> mjr: why wouldn't ssh be in the default install for the consumer version? this is the single most useful application :)
Jan 30 21:03:51 <yacc> mjr: why not in the customer version?
Jan 30 21:04:00 <yacc> s/customer/consumer/
Jan 30 21:04:03 <Morgret> ssh is so tiny that it would be silly not to have it in the default install.  It needen't be running -- you can start it manually.
Jan 30 21:04:13 <Morgret> And it makes a statement.
Jan 30 21:04:16 <NatureTM> maybe security reasons?
Jan 30 21:04:32 <yacc> Actually, one can have a small program that listens on port 22 and starts the sshd if something connects there.
Jan 30 21:04:32 <NatureTM> not that ssh isn't secure
Jan 30 21:04:41 <PirateHead> I agree, SSH would allow for more security in many cellular transactions.
Jan 30 21:04:53 <Morgret> That program is called inetd, and it's standard :P
Jan 30 21:05:18 <Elrond> Is sshd inetd'able?
Jan 30 21:05:22 <mjr> Elrond, it is
Jan 30 21:05:28 <Morgret> Yep, it is
Jan 30 21:05:34 <NatureTM> is this thing gonna have gcc?
Jan 30 21:05:47 <mjr> it will generate a new keyset for every connection from inetd though, so slows down getting a connection
Jan 30 21:06:03 <Elrond> mjr - Yeah.
Jan 30 21:06:23 <Elrond> Well, it should be {installed, but not running} on the consumer edition.
Jan 30 21:06:32 <Elrond> Consumers tend to set stupid passwords, you know. :)
Jan 30 21:06:51 <Morgret> You typically gcc on your cross-build environment, then load your program into the phone.  No reason why gcc shouldn't run on the Neo ... but not everyone has 3 weeks to wait for Hello World to compile :P
Jan 30 21:06:54 <pH5> I wonder who will be the first to build the complete openmoko stack natively on his neo.
Jan 30 21:07:01 <mjr> if there's space, sure, installed, running, no, as you said :]
Jan 30 21:07:05 <NatureTM> Morgret lol
Jan 30 21:07:10 <lrg> pH5: koen :)
Jan 30 21:07:28 <PirateHead> NatureTM: Why would it have GCC? Are you going to compile your embedded apps using your embedded?
Jan 30 21:07:29 <pH5> lrg: silly me, of course ;)
Jan 30 21:07:35 <SpeedEvil> gcc isn't that slow on P100 class. It'll do a surprising amount overnight.
Jan 30 21:07:52 <NatureTM> it's just kindof a cool feature
Jan 30 21:08:03 <Morgret> SpeedEvil: yeah, but you're Evil ;-)
Jan 30 21:08:23 <SpeedEvil> I've also compiled X on a P100 before :)
Jan 30 21:09:23 <leventhal> distcc is nice for that sort of thing
Jan 30 21:09:29 <PirateHead> I think it's pointless to compile using embedded devices, unless you're just doing it for the heck of it.
Jan 30 21:10:05 <lrg> PirateHead: or comparing the binaries against cross tool binaries
Jan 30 21:10:20 <SpeedEvil> Or on the road with no other computer :)
Jan 30 21:10:27 <lrg> heh
Jan 30 21:10:33 <PirateHead> lrg: That is true. It's probably important for debugging and sanity checks.
Jan 30 21:11:37 <NatureTM> I imagine these things won't brick easily
Jan 30 21:12:31 <Elrond> Or for stupid software, that doesn't cross compile.
Jan 30 21:12:37 <PirateHead> Brick? Or break?
Jan 30 21:12:41 <NatureTM> I bricked my razr not too long ago
Jan 30 21:13:02 <NatureTM> brick == permanant break
Jan 30 21:13:06 * PirateHead does not know what bricking is. /me feels left out.
Jan 30 21:13:18 <NatureTM> like bad flash etc
Jan 30 21:13:21 * PirateHead is glad he didn't know what bricking is.
Jan 30 21:13:27 <lrg> NatureTM: as long as you dont overwrite the bootloader you should be fine 
Jan 30 21:13:52 <PirateHead> I'm wondering about the safety of tinkering and toying with the phone.
Jan 30 21:13:58 <Elrond> lrg - At least, when the bootloader is up to speed. ;)
Jan 30 21:14:15 <PirateHead> If I totally screw shit up and accidentally run rm -R / as root, can I restore the phone to factory condition somehow?
Jan 30 21:14:15 <lrg> Elrond: it currently works well :)
Jan 30 21:14:46 <Morgret> No
Jan 30 21:14:46 <Elrond> lrg - It can update the flash from usb?!
Jan 30 21:14:48 <Morgret> Would be daft for all that info to be held on ROM.
Jan 30 21:14:59 <Morgret> But of course you should be able to do a network load.
Jan 30 21:15:17 <PirateHead> Morgret, I assume you're responding to me?
Jan 30 21:15:28 <lrg> Elrond: all I can say is that it works well for us. nda
Jan 30 21:16:04 <PirateHead> Refreshing/reinstalling the phone's OS is probably the first thing I want to learn how to do
Jan 30 21:16:04 <Morgret> PirateHead: yeah, thought you meant that the phone could carry the whole factory root filestore in ROM, to reset to factory settings.
Jan 30 21:16:29 <PirateHead> Morgret: no, but a kit that could do it over USB would be swell.
Jan 30 21:16:30 <Morgret> From external sources, yeah.
Jan 30 21:16:51 <PirateHead> Does the phone ship with a CD containing its source code and binaries?
Jan 30 21:17:05 <lrg> PirateHead: not yet
Jan 30 21:17:12 <Morgret> The point being that if there is room for a large factory ROM in the phone, then why not use the space for more flash! :P
Jan 30 21:17:42 <Elrond> *G*
Jan 30 21:17:45 <PirateHead> Morgret, I agree: no point in putting all that ROM in there.
Jan 30 21:17:50 <Elrond> There's room for a microsd ;)
Jan 30 21:18:17 <PirateHead> I'm just hoping to build or contribute to an easy to use tool for reformatting and reinstalling OpenMoko on a Neo.
Jan 30 21:18:20 <PirateHead> And other phones, in the future.
Jan 30 21:18:29 <Morgret> Sounds like nice page for the Wiki:  How To Restore Your Whole Neo From USBnet.
Jan 30 21:18:43 <Elrond> Morgret - Right.
Jan 30 21:19:19 <PirateHead> Morgret: It needs to be doable with no action on the Neo's part. We have to assume that the Neo is totally crashed.
Jan 30 21:19:29 <PirateHead> Thus, you wouldn't really be using USBnet, would you?
Jan 30 21:19:45 <Elrond> Well, something over usb.
Jan 30 21:20:51 <Elrond> Hmm, can one disable charging over usb?  I don't want to waste changring vycles just by connecting/disconnecting/connecting the phone.
Jan 30 21:20:57 <SpeedEvil> JTAG?
Jan 30 21:21:00 <SpeedEvil> You don't.
Jan 30 21:21:08 <SpeedEvil> Li-ion doesn't really work like that.
Jan 30 21:21:21 <SpeedEvil> It's (say) 500 charge/discharge cycles
Jan 30 21:21:31 <SpeedEvil> or 5000 10% discharge/charge
Jan 30 21:21:32 <Elrond> How does it work?
Jan 30 21:21:33 <Morgret> PirateHead: except for the load-from-flash action.  It's bound to have some hold-button-down-on-powerup function for death recovery.
Jan 30 21:21:43 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jan 30 21:22:14 <SpeedEvil> There is a slight penalty to keeping the battery charged at 100% all the time, for best longevity, you want to charge to 50%.
Jan 30 21:22:17 <SpeedEvil> But...
Jan 30 21:23:12 <SpeedEvil> Alteratively, there might be a 'rescue sd'
Jan 30 21:26:16 <PirateHead> A 'rescue sd' could be alright.
Jan 30 21:26:23 <PirateHead> But something that works over the USB would probably be better
Jan 30 21:26:38 <PirateHead> I mean, having both options available would make me most comfortable personally.
Jan 30 21:27:15 <mjr> either would be fine
Jan 30 21:27:31 <mjr> usb admittedly more convenient
Jan 30 21:35:11 <[g2]> PirateHead [g2] votes for the "rescue sd" and a boot option to boot form the SD
Jan 30 21:35:28 <[g2]> s/form/from/
Jan 30 21:35:28 <apt> [g2] meant: PirateHead [g2] votes for the "rescue sd" and a boot option to boot from the SD
Jan 30 21:35:45 <[g2]> the issue being the usb is not powered
Jan 30 21:36:01 <PirateHead> tset
Jan 30 21:36:02 <SpeedEvil> And a SD card wallet can easily be kept on the keyring.
Jan 30 21:36:10 <PirateHead> s/tset/test
Jan 30 21:36:31 <PirateHead> boo, apt doesn't like me
Jan 30 21:36:35 <mjr> you didn't terminate your expression properly :]
Jan 30 21:36:41 <PirateHead> ooh
Jan 30 21:37:06 <PirateHead> f00 bar
Jan 30 21:37:09 <PirateHead> s/f00/foo/
Jan 30 21:37:10 <[g2]> bbiaf
Jan 30 21:37:10 <apt> PirateHead meant: foo bar
Jan 30 21:37:18 <PirateHead> k
Jan 30 21:37:24 <PirateHead> thx apt
Jan 30 21:38:27 <PirateHead> the problem with a rescue SD is that it would be really ungodly slow
Jan 30 21:38:37 <PirateHead> think how much time it takes for a normal linux install
Jan 30 21:38:53 <PirateHead> and then factor in less memory, less processor power, and flash memory
Jan 30 21:39:01 <PirateHead> and very little RAM
Jan 30 21:40:19 <pH5> PirateHead: this is limited by the write speed of the internal flash, really. flashing my hx4700 (128mb) takes about 15 to 20 minutes.
Jan 30 21:40:24 <PirateHead> I don't necessarily know that a USB-powered system would work better, but I would want to investigae it.
Jan 30 21:40:45 <PirateHead> s/investigae/investigate/
Jan 30 21:40:47 <apt> PirateHead meant: I don't necessarily know that a USB-powered system would work better, but I would want to investigate it.
Jan 30 21:41:01 <PirateHead> I am so gonna abuse that.
Jan 30 21:42:37 <mjr> it gets old...
Jan 30 21:53:58 <hrw> evening
Jan 30 21:54:16 <ryanlerch> morning, :P
Jan 30 21:54:59 <koljoman> hi a"moko"s
Jan 30 21:57:30 <Zero_Dogg> when will it be available for ordering? Will there be any chance of a developer discount?
Jan 30 21:57:36 <lrg> hey Marcin
Jan 30 21:58:15 <stefan_schmidt> re
Jan 30 21:58:39 <hrw> Zero_Dogg: 3.11 and looks like no
Jan 30 21:58:44 <stefan_schmidt> Zer0Her0: See topic, especially the announce mail
Jan 30 21:59:01 <stefan_schmidt> Zer0Her0: That's all we know so far
Jan 30 21:59:44 <koljoman> how can contribute/join developing and etc
Jan 30 21:59:45 <PierreTramo> does anyone have already heared about using a psion s3c screen? :D
Jan 30 22:00:01 <PierreTramo> that's a hack i'd love to do
Jan 30 22:00:09 <stefan_schmidt> koljoman: Add yourself to the ml's
Jan 30 22:00:28 <stefan_schmidt> koljoman: Read the archives, have ideas post it.
Jan 30 22:01:05 <koljoman> @stefan: 10x i will do it now
Jan 30 22:02:40 <Zero_Dogg> stefan_schmidt: was that to me?
Jan 30 22:03:30 <stefan_schmidt> Zer0Her0: ?, koljoman asked how to join the development. You asked about when available.
Jan 30 22:03:55 <Zero_Dogg> stefan_schmidt: I was more referring to the messages you pointed at Zer0Her0
Jan 30 22:04:53 <stefan_schmidt> Zero_Dogg: aargh, of course you're right
Jan 30 22:05:01 <Zero_Dogg> stefan_schmidt: okay, thanks :)
Jan 30 22:05:06 <stefan_schmidt> ~lart big channels and tapcompletion
Jan 30 22:05:06 * apt takes out a seltzer bottle and sprays big channels and tapcompletion in the face. You know, one of those old-school seltzer bottles clowns have? Yeah those. Anyway, consider yourself spritzed
Jan 30 22:06:01 <PierreTramo> is there a "standard" protocol for a 16-pin 240x80 B/W screen that i could try? :(
Jan 30 22:06:26 <Morgret> for $user in `/who #OpenMoko`; do ~lart $user; done
Jan 30 22:06:28 <Morgret> :P
Jan 30 22:07:46 <Morgret> I sure hope the bot *doesn't* have scripting :-(
Jan 30 22:07:56 <stefan_schmidt> s/for $user/for user/ ;)
Jan 30 22:08:23 <Morgret> It was Bourne Perl shell :P
Jan 30 22:09:11 <stefan_schmidt> heh
Jan 30 22:10:26 <Elrond> voodoo^2-shell?
Jan 30 22:10:28 <Morgret> Does the USB power pin have *some* power on it, but just not enough to meet the USB1.1 power spec?
Jan 30 22:11:03 <Morgret> Or is it just not connected at all?
Jan 30 22:11:15 <tchuladdiass> Morget: I dont't think it has any power -- the problem is that usb calls for 5.0v, the phone only has 3.6v internal
Jan 30 22:11:17 <xorAxAx> the usb power spec doesnt require much current
Jan 30 22:11:25 <Morgret> k
Jan 30 22:11:42 <tchuladdiass> so to add usb power would require a dc-dc converter chip, which adds complexity / cost / etc.
Jan 30 22:12:21 <fluffs> with a standard battery you'd not get a lot of life with 5v@500mA draw
Jan 30 22:12:55 <xorAxAx> sure
Jan 30 22:12:56 <Morgret> But Ethernet USB adapters and other common stuff don't sink 500mA
Jan 30 22:13:28 <xorAxAx> fluffs: my old ericsson k700i has 2.5 Wh
Jan 30 22:13:28 <fluffs> no, but add a hub and it isn't difficult
Jan 30 22:13:44 <SpeedEvil> Much stuff requires >100mA in peaks thouhg.
Jan 30 22:13:48 <xorAxAx> fluffs: so its maybe 40 minutes :)
Jan 30 22:13:56 <SpeedEvil> Wifi adaptors typically do use half that power at least.
Jan 30 22:14:38 <tchuladdiass> yep, my zaurus has powered usb, but not enough to power wifi.
Jan 30 22:15:31 <Morgret> Well that should be up to the user, whether to trade battery life for peripheral power or not.  The 3.6->5.0 argument is more relevant though.
Jan 30 22:16:35 <fluffs> you can get a single chip dc-dc converter, but they do require external componentry and i'm not sure about the efficency
Jan 30 22:16:55 <SpeedEvil> It can be up to 90%
Jan 30 22:17:06 <Morgret> And they raise your noise floor a little.
Jan 30 22:17:11 <SpeedEvil> Typically there are tradeoffs vwith size/cost/power
Jan 30 22:17:17 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Jan 30 22:17:22 <tchuladdiass> It would be nice if the phone had an external 3.6v power tap next to the usb port -- then you can build the dc-dc into an external cable
Jan 30 22:18:11 <Morgret> Sounds like we have room for some h/w mods ;-)
Jan 30 22:18:30 <SpeedEvil> If you have an external cable, you may as well stick a couple of AAA batteries on it too.
Jan 30 22:18:50 <Morgret> Somebody overclock it to 3GHz pls .... ;-)
Jan 30 22:19:01 <tchuladdiass> but then you have an extra set of batteries to keep trak of (carying charger, etc.)
Jan 30 22:19:50 <tchuladdiass> Might as well carry a cyberpower battery-powered usb hub
Jan 30 22:19:57 <tchuladdiass> (i might pick up one of those)
Jan 30 22:20:20 <pH5> Morgret: looks like we can overclock to 270 MHz? :)
Jan 30 22:20:46 <mjr> I tried to, but found nobody willing to sell those to Finland. Oh, except that one place who wanted wasit 60 bucks for shipping
Jan 30 22:21:34 <SpeedEvil> if they are  integrated into ca ble and charge over usb
Jan 30 22:22:45 <tchuladdiass> Ah, I see, you mean batteries in addition to the power tap and dc-dc converter.  I thought you meant have a battery powered cable instead of doing the external dc-dc.
Jan 30 22:23:27 <tchuladdiass> Cause someone on the list already meantioned putting together a cable / box with 4 NiMh batteries
Jan 30 22:27:15 <SpeedEvil> A USB cable that plugs into a powered port charges the bats basically
Jan 30 22:27:32 <SpeedEvil> A USB cable that when plugged into a powered port charges the bats basically
Jan 30 22:33:30 <LittleIdiot> hihi http://www.mad4mobilephones.com/images/iphone-cartoon.jpg
Jan 30 22:37:19 <mjr> "And look, this GPS map software tells me exactly where to call the ambulance"
Jan 30 22:38:33 <cld2> so in march I should be able to buy a phone for $350 us even if im not a super l33t developer?
Jan 30 22:39:06 <cld2> of course with the intention of using the phone/contact app and trying my hand at development?
Jan 30 22:39:07 <mjr> cld2, correct, however you are expected to know that you're buying a developer device that isn't all polished up yet
Jan 30 22:39:12 <LittleIdiot> "oh they're close, my bluetooth scanner software tells me that it has found a device named 'ambulance'" ;)
Jan 30 22:39:22 <cld2> mjr: understood 
Jan 30 22:39:25 <cld2> thanks.
Jan 30 22:39:52 <cld2> mjr: it should "work" though right? its not just going to be a brick. the os and the phone app should be installed and working?
Jan 30 22:40:01 <hrw> and that some things will not work yet
Jan 30 22:40:15 <hrw> cld2: iirc voicecalls are working
Jan 30 22:40:22 <hrw> audio playback is working too
Jan 30 22:40:40 <cld2> I cant wait to get rid of my treo. I was going to buy a nokia e61 until I heard about this device.
Jan 30 22:40:43 <mjr> it shouldn't be a brick, but I'm not on FIC's payroll, so I don't know the real deal ;)
Jan 30 22:41:14 <hrw> !counter
Jan 30 22:41:20 <cld2> im sure a few people in here will have one when the time comes. we can pick there brains then.
Jan 30 22:41:25 <Clint> no !
Jan 30 22:41:31 <hrw> counter
Jan 30 22:41:32 <aloril> 1 week, 4 days 00:46:59 (11.03 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 4 days (39.03 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 4 days (223.03 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 22:41:52 <hrw> so 1 week, 4 days + shipping for me
Jan 30 22:42:02 <mjr> *envy* :]
Jan 30 22:42:10 <Clint> hmmph
Jan 30 22:42:19 <mjr> but yeah, do tell us if you can actually talk on it when you get it ;)
Jan 30 22:42:23 <hrw> and then I will post small review with pictures and shots
Jan 30 22:42:40 <hrw> on http://www.hrw.one.pl/ as always
Jan 30 22:43:00 * alphaone hides his brains
Jan 30 22:43:00 <cld2> hrw: thanks for the heads up
Jan 30 22:44:00 <SpeedEvil> Also take-apart - the case off only prolly
Jan 30 22:44:07 <alphaone> hrw: The subject of that mail could have easily been mistaken for spam, though
Jan 30 22:44:44 <LittleIdiot> where do i opt in for the list of "all developers"?
Jan 30 22:45:31 <alphaone> LittleIdiot: You just order your device at www.openmoko.com
Jan 30 22:45:35 <mjr> LittleIdiot, apparently a preorder list is planned, but I don't think it's time yet
Jan 30 22:45:53 <SpeedEvil> how many is the second batch?
Jan 30 22:47:50 <LittleIdiot> oh, so the source will be released for the public in 11 days? the counter reads as if at first developers that are on the list only get the source...
Jan 30 22:48:18 <LittleIdiot> because it distinguishes between 'any' and 'all' ;)
Jan 30 22:48:23 <hrw> source, wiki, bugtracker for all
Jan 30 22:48:33 <LittleIdiot> allright then ;)
Jan 30 22:48:35 <hrw> free phones for 50 developers
Jan 30 22:49:21 <LittleIdiot> this wasnt an attempt to get a phone. this was rather an attempt to have a look at the {svn,cvs,git,*} repository ;)
Jan 30 22:49:37 <mjr> righto
Jan 30 22:50:11 <hrw> svn + monotone this time
Jan 30 22:52:15 <hrw> cu - sleeptime
Jan 30 22:52:20 <hrw> hi Rod
Jan 30 22:52:35 <rwhitby> hey hrw 
Jan 30 22:56:21 <Psi_> do we know if the neo has a RTC wakeup interrupt? ie for alarm clock when the phone is off?
Jan 30 22:57:51 <fluffs> Psi_: the s3c2410 can resume from rtc
Jan 30 22:58:09 <Psi_> :)
Jan 30 22:58:21 <mjr> spiffy
Jan 30 22:58:52 <mjr> though I usually keep mine on continuously
Jan 30 22:59:06 <mjr> phone generally, that is
Jan 30 23:00:14 <Psi_> yeah, i was more thinking about things you could do with the phone when it is able to auto switch on at certain times
Jan 30 23:02:48 <SpeedEvil> It might be nice to sleep the phone, and only wakeup on GSM or RTC interrupt.
Jan 30 23:03:21 <SpeedEvil> Or screen
Jan 30 23:03:22 <Psi_> that would definitely make the battery last a while
Jan 30 23:03:58 <pH5> SpeedEvil: that's how works on all smartphones that I know.
Jan 30 23:04:20 <SpeedEvil> Yeah. I suppose it'd have to.
Jan 30 23:05:46 <mjr> Psi_, mmh, yes, like if somebody steals it and turns it off, it'll still wake up periodically and update position on the net ;P (hmh, that would probably require storing pin somewhere, less good...)
Jan 30 23:06:46 <LittleIdiot> mjr: you could make a fake shutdown mode... miming it'd be off
Jan 30 23:06:57 <LittleIdiot> ask the cia guys, they know how to do it ;)
Jan 30 23:07:45 <mjr> LittleIdiot, *nod*, and do all kinds of stuff we've been over here ;)
Jan 30 23:08:56 <mjr> then have a user-defined obfuscated way of triggering real shutdown, yay...
Jan 30 23:09:09 <mjr> "security by obscurity"
Jan 30 23:10:53 <parag0n> people will just pull the battery
Jan 30 23:11:06 <LittleIdiot> well, if somebody knows the phone already then he/she knows that this software exists. but i assume that people stealing cellphones aren't that smart to know whats on it
Jan 30 23:11:26 <mjr> well, for a while it could work
Jan 30 23:11:46 <LittleIdiot> and hey, an unlocked phone means free calls for a wile ;)
Jan 30 23:12:44 <mjr> anyway, there's been talk of all kinds of anti-theft tracking assuming that the thief doesn't do a complete reinstall
Jan 30 23:13:18 <mjr> just talk so far but I'd be surprised if some of it didn't get real
Jan 30 23:14:30 <LittleIdiot> what, you mean there have recently been productive discussions on the discuss list? *g*
Jan 30 23:14:33 <mjr> might even do some simple app myself
Jan 30 23:15:05 <mjr> no, actually it was a while back, and mostly on this channel, but a message or two also on the list... Like, weeks ago at least ;)
Jan 30 23:15:26 <mjr> the community list is currently not that signaly...
Jan 30 23:17:19 <LittleIdiot> thats why i've unsubscribed it
Jan 30 23:17:38 <mjr> I haven't, I just ignore most of the fluff
Jan 30 23:21:46 <mjr> some fax/scanner stuff has been almost sane recently
Jan 30 23:22:08 <mjr> almost in the sense that hey, they're thinking of using neo and a (powered) scanner as a fax
Jan 30 23:23:38 <mjr> to each their own, I suppose :]
Jan 30 23:24:00 <mjr> (and see what I did there, "scanner", "sane", ehheheh)
Jan 30 23:24:26 <mjr> ...time for bed perhaps
Jan 30 23:24:46 <mjr> _or_
Jan 30 23:24:57 <mjr> time for Stargate, who can tell...
Jan 30 23:25:15 <mjr> nah, pretty sure it's bed
Jan 30 23:40:11 <rejon_office> that would be cool
Jan 30 23:42:02 * koen mentions webkit again just to make sure
Jan 30 23:48:54 <edit_lp2> evening all
Jan 30 23:53:51 <edit_lp2> does anyone know when the source code will be released?
Jan 30 23:57:25 <spikebik1> edit
Jan 30 23:57:27 <spikebik1> counter
Jan 30 23:57:27 <aloril> 1 week, 3 days 23:31:03 (10.98 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.98 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.98 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 30 23:57:58 <edit_lp2> ah thanks
Jan 30 23:58:49 <edit_lp2> ok so i'll wait for the preorder, i may have a mapping project i would be intresting on porting over
Jan 31 00:00:15 <spikebik1> oh?
Jan 31 00:00:16 <spikebik1> whcih one?
Jan 31 00:00:20 <edit_lp2> my own
Jan 31 00:00:22 <spikebik1> I'm pondering similar
Jan 31 00:00:35 <spikebik1> I really like maemo mapper on the nokia 770
Jan 31 00:00:39 <edit_lp2> i was going to port it over to symbian
Jan 31 00:01:03 <edit_lp2> on to the 9000 series with gps module
Jan 31 00:01:06 <spikebik1> you are going to write a mapper from scratch?
Jan 31 00:01:27 <edit_lp2> not exactly, working with 2 devs
Jan 31 00:01:34 <spikebik1> I was pondering writing a java implementation that can use an external GPS on any cell phone
Jan 31 00:01:46 <spikebik1> or maybe a native one for the openmoko that can use the internal gps
Jan 31 00:02:02 <edit_lp2> ours is more aimed at automatiion
Jan 31 00:02:39 <edit_lp2> yeah we are very intresed in the onchip gps
Jan 31 00:02:50 <spikebik1> although to be honest I might still use the external
Jan 31 00:02:59 <edit_lp2> =)
Jan 31 00:03:17 <spikebik1> $60-$70 and I suspect dramatically better performance
Jan 31 00:03:25 <edit_lp2> we know any details of the internal gps as yet?
Jan 31 00:03:35 <spikebik1> yeah the chipset is mentioned
Jan 31 00:03:55 <spikebik1> it's a-gps
Jan 31 00:04:03 <spikebik1> forget the company/model.
Jan 31 00:04:08 <spikebik1> I^
Jan 31 00:04:08 <edit_lp2> yep well thi is all new to us, only stumbled in here thanks to #lugradio
Jan 31 00:04:21 <spikebik1> cool
Jan 31 00:04:27 <spikebik1> yeah interesting project
Jan 31 00:04:30 <edit_lp2> but something we have been looking/waiting for for ages
Jan 31 00:04:32 <spikebik1> I'm trying to nurse my phone to last
Jan 31 00:04:40 <edit_lp2> ha
Jan 31 00:04:41 <spikebik1> or I'll just get a motorola linux phone
Jan 31 00:04:53 <edit_lp2> what are th restraints of getting preorder?
Jan 31 00:05:04 <edit_lp2> any idea's?
Jan 31 00:05:15 <spikebik1> in 38 days if you want it you can buy it
Jan 31 00:05:28 <edit_lp2> cool
Jan 31 00:05:51 <spikebik1> but they aren't promising a perfect user environment
Jan 31 00:05:58 <edit_lp2> im going to go hunt specs
Jan 31 00:06:05 <edit_lp2> well its a beta isnt it,
Jan 31 00:06:07 <spikebik1> for end users the cool stuff isn't promise till 7 months
Jan 31 00:06:26 <edit_lp2> a platform
Jan 31 00:06:29 <edit_lp2> aha
Jan 31 00:06:38 <spikebik1> so calls should work, but don't bet on auto synchronization with some arbtrary other app
Jan 31 00:07:00 <edit_lp2> thats what the community is for :-)
Jan 31 00:07:07 <spikebik1> right
Jan 31 00:08:05 <edit_lp2> are there any progect reps in chan?
Jan 31 00:09:29 <edit_lp2> ah cool, toolchain
Jan 31 00:22:28 <cworth> edit_lp2: Is this a free software mapper you're talking about?
Jan 31 00:22:47 <edit_lp2> it will be yes
Jan 31 00:23:14 <edit_lp2> will/hope =)
Jan 31 00:23:36 <thedaniel_> speaking of mapping, i assume we've seen this GTK+ mapping soft designed for touchscreens? http://navit.sourceforge.net/
Jan 31 00:23:52 <edit_lp2> nacit . yes
Jan 31 00:23:56 <edit_lp2> v'
Jan 31 00:24:14 <thedaniel_> i just saw it for the first time today, it also seems like a perfect fit to run on moko
Jan 31 00:24:25 <edit_lp2> =)
Jan 31 00:24:39 <cworth> edit_lp2: I have a special place in my heart for mapping software, (after starting a mapping project and getting distracted for the next 4-5 years by writing a graphics library to support it).
Jan 31 00:24:58 <edit_lp2> heh
Jan 31 00:25:14 <edit_lp2> distractions ++
Jan 31 00:25:54 <edit_lp2> im lucky i stumbled on to this chan =)
Jan 31 00:27:11 <edit_lp2> is there a roadmap for ver2?
Jan 31 00:27:17 <cworth> edit_lp2: So I have to ask what you're using to draw stuff?
Jan 31 00:27:57 <edit_lp2> cworth, its not that kind of mapper,more trigger
Jan 31 00:28:31 <edit_lp2> i guess you could call it location triggering
Jan 31 00:28:42 <cworth> edit_lp2: Ah, I see.
Jan 31 00:31:09 <edit_lp2> but there is no reason why it cannot be deployed with vector mapping, but i do not know much about the rendering out side of things
Jan 31 00:36:47 <cworth> edit_lp2: Sure. And presumably one might want a graphical interface to manage or query the current triggering setups, right?
Jan 31 00:37:14 <cworth> edit_lp2: Anyway, like I said, the rendering side is something I've been working on for the last few years with the cairo graphics library.
Jan 31 00:38:06 <edit_lp2> for what we are doing, it would not be needed , but would be a intresting fork
Jan 31 00:45:47 <BryceL> ello all
Jan 31 00:45:53 <edit_lp2> hi
Jan 31 00:46:03 <BryceL> hello
Jan 31 00:56:18 <BryceL> any devs in the house?
Jan 31 00:58:42 <BryceL> anyone else watching the wootoff?
Jan 31 01:00:59 <Clint> only to get angry that i've missed stuff
Jan 31 01:06:04 <BryceL> Clint: lol i so know exactly how you feel
Jan 31 01:06:24 <BryceL> Clint: you don't happen to be the same clint from Software for Starving Students eh?
Jan 31 01:06:40 <Clint> not that i know of
Jan 31 01:06:59 <BryceL> cool figured i'd check. damn i just decided i wanted one of those damn sets of speakers
Jan 31 02:33:57 <XVampireX> whoa, this is pretty neat: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jRvtAAXTIlg
Jan 31 02:40:21 <Mortimus> counter
Jan 31 02:40:22 <aloril> 1 week, 3 days 20:48:08 (10.87 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11);  1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.87 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11);  7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.87 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info
Jan 31 02:42:56 <XVampireX> haha
Jan 31 02:46:25 <aloril> one reason I hope completely open phone takes over is that maybe then there will be top of line 3D card with driver that has GPL compatible sources; maybe openmoko based things could achieve it or maybe some of them will succumb to non freeness
Jan 31 02:47:21 <Agrajag-> your reasoning there really makes no sense to me
Jan 31 02:47:35 <Mortimus> the ending killed it
Jan 31 02:49:31 <Mortimus> i think what he is trying to say that with the community involvement that is seen here may inspire companies to freely document and share source code to the community so that they can develop the best software
Jan 31 02:51:47 <Mortimus> anyways isn't ATI releasing open source drivers
Jan 31 02:51:54 <XVampireX> YEAH?
Jan 31 02:51:58 <Mortimus> or did i read something incorrectly
Jan 31 02:52:04 <Agrajag-> i think you read incorrectly..
Jan 31 02:52:13 <Mortimus> thats poo
Jan 31 02:52:23 <aloril> I mean that eventually most mobile phones will get 3D accelerator
Jan 31 02:52:25 <Agrajag-> projects like nouveau are more likely to succeed with that sort of thing anyway
Jan 31 02:52:42 <aloril> and maybe eventually mobile computing might be major way we use computers in future
Jan 31 02:53:01 <Mortimus> eh i like my beastly desktop
Jan 31 02:53:27 <Mortimus> i just hate waiting for bug fixes in binary drivers
Jan 31 02:53:38 <Mortimus> ex. nvidia drivers
Jan 31 02:54:19 <Mortimus> thats why i hope nouveau gets to be better than nvidia drivers
Jan 31 02:59:13 <AcidBurn1> good evening
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jan 31 02:59:59 2007