**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Jan 31 02:59:59 2007 Jan 31 03:00:14 ? Jan 31 03:00:29 I don't know! Jan 31 03:00:36 Lol acid you just walked in on a "they'lre so going to open source the world" debate Jan 31 03:01:11 My comment: "Not bloody likely, and definitely not any time soon" :) Jan 31 03:01:38 I'm just hoping that the Wine and ReactOS projects move ahead and make the win32 API trivial. Jan 31 03:02:04 Once that's not even a restriction, it will remove a lot of barriers to adoption. Jan 31 03:02:20 Yeah, so people can run Office 2010 on it. Jan 31 03:02:23 It might not help on mobiles much, but then again with improvements to miniturization, it might eventually apply in that arena as well. Jan 31 03:02:34 ReactOS and wine have a very very long way to go Jan 31 03:02:46 very good and the ReactOS guys are great but they've got a hell of alot of work Jan 31 03:02:55 SuN: obviously not, but you know they're going to come out with Windows Live stuff for mobiles. Jan 31 03:03:18 I know ReactOS has a long way to go, but the fact that they're doing it is great. Jan 31 03:03:30 and open source graphics drivers have a shot. Intel open sourced theirs and now they're working on an actual graphics card so there's a small shot Jan 31 03:03:55 One advantage of the mobile world is that it's not really settled on one system yet. Jan 31 03:04:04 PirateHead: well that's for sure in 3 or 4 years i think it'll be xp like enough for your average user Jan 31 03:04:07 Unlike say, the desktop. Jan 31 03:04:32 Yeah, in 3 or 4 years when being Vista-like is already pretty dull. Jan 31 03:05:01 SuN: good point, i mean in the mobile world you have palm who's sadly dying, access who's failing, symbian who's living because nokia's a beast, motorola who's using linux to hell, windows mobile devices, and good old RIM Jan 31 03:05:26 And a hell of a lot of other proprietary platforms that don't support much more than J2ME. Jan 31 03:05:33 SuN: yes but reactos by then will run most games Jan 31 03:05:40 And people are used to learning a new UI for their phone every two years Jan 31 03:05:58 alphaone: hell every new phone, even if it's the same manufacturer Jan 31 03:06:05 counter Jan 31 03:06:06 1 week, 3 days 20:22:24 (10.85 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.85 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.85 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 03:06:20 still nto soon enough Jan 31 03:06:30 can't wait til the 11th Jan 31 03:06:40 i've already got 450 aside for the phone and lunchbox Jan 31 03:07:00 BryceL: But usually you get a new phone every two or so years Jan 31 03:08:43 alphaone: very true, but alot of people break their phones yearly and go from their nice new phone to the cheapest on the block in this terrible cycle Jan 31 03:08:51 i'm thinking of a particular vixen next to me on her computer Jan 31 03:08:51 Heh Jan 31 03:09:13 Women can't handle phones :) They're too delicate. Jan 31 03:09:17 BryceL: Make sure she doesn't read that :-) Jan 31 03:09:19 The phones, I mean :D Jan 31 03:10:22 lol.... she's run over one, drowned another, and put a third through the wash (she's still on the third it just doens't have a backlit screen now) Jan 31 03:10:51 My sister drops phones ALL the f'in' time. Jan 31 03:10:52 There is a market for bulletproof phones. Jan 31 03:11:25 I cherish mine as if it were my child. Jan 31 03:11:33 Replace the LCD cover with a nice thick bit of sapphire, use SAW to do the touch-sensing, waterproof it, shockproof it, ... Jan 31 03:11:46 speedevil : those phones musk look like sea monsters Jan 31 03:12:05 Have had my E680 for 2 years now, and all that's wrong with it is declining battery capacity. Jan 31 03:12:09 Not literally bulletproof - but capable of being kept in pocket with keys. Jan 31 03:12:13 Barely a scratch. Jan 31 03:12:34 i lose mine thats why its in new condition Jan 31 03:12:39 Heh Jan 31 03:12:58 I have dropped mine quite often now, but then I got the cheapest phone available at that time Jan 31 03:13:08 Hmpf Jan 31 03:13:08 never found a use for my phone besides establishing credit Jan 31 03:13:18 I need to get me a Nokia N800 or something, I get bored when I poop! Jan 31 03:13:20 Since real organizer phones were way too expensive - even with contract Jan 31 03:13:26 but that will change soon Jan 31 03:13:26 i have a treo... if you've ever owned one... you know that they're nothign but trouble Jan 31 03:13:49 Well... just your comments alone have put me off from ever buying one :) Jan 31 03:13:50 i wish that the Fic ran on Verizon's network then i could use my existing plan Jan 31 03:14:04 That's a really lame trick they pull in the US. Jan 31 03:14:10 SuN: ohh trust me do not under any circumstances if you want a good reliable phone buy one Jan 31 03:14:21 you can cancel in march Jan 31 03:14:34 due to the txt messaging hike in march Jan 31 03:14:55 Mortimus: heh.. yes that's going to be a bit of an argument to fight Jan 31 03:15:05 Well for some reason all the Treo's always had something wrong with them hardware wise... when they finally upgraded the CPU from that 33MHz dragonball and added wifi, they put this stupid huge antenna on it :/ Jan 31 03:15:07 but i've got it all planned Jan 31 03:15:39 SuN: lol yes... ahh the treo *contemplates dropkicking it* Jan 31 03:16:10 Mortimus: i've got my argument all planned "you've nearly doubled the cost! That's a clear monetary problem!" Jan 31 03:16:51 I have high expectations of Openmoko on my E680... hardware wise it's a pretty neat phone. Jan 31 03:16:55 any of you done any building with the open embeded env yet? Jan 31 03:17:00 I've waited 2 years for this. Jan 31 03:17:06 Hm I've done some stuff for my Zaurus. Jan 31 03:17:17 you don't need special tools too flash the e680? Jan 31 03:17:21 BryceL : it would cost me an extra 50 cents which i can put to buying a juice box Jan 31 03:17:37 Mortimus: Lmao i can cite the cost of sips at the local shop rite! Jan 31 03:17:44 Well.. yes and no. Jan 31 03:18:04 SuN: details? Jan 31 03:18:35 I've updated its firmware (with Motorola images) with Motorola's software, which is legally questionable, since Motorola never formally released that software, it's only available to service centers and partners, I think. Jan 31 03:18:51 BryceL : the only thing that kept me from setting up a qemu environment is that it need gcc 3.x i have gcc 4.11 Jan 31 03:18:53 BUT some guys found ways to flash from within Linux. Jan 31 03:18:59 On the phone, that is. Jan 31 03:19:43 any tools for Nexetl i930? Jan 31 03:19:48 SuN: makes sense i guess if you can force a terminal you can explore and run their updater i'd presume, just drop in your own binary Jan 31 03:20:09 Mortimus: can't you just install the compat package? what distro you use? Jan 31 03:20:28 BryceL : gentoo Jan 31 03:21:42 BryceL : That would mean emerging gcc and associated tools meaning at least 1 hour of compile time (higher power usage) Jan 31 03:21:46 SuN: How is flashing from inside Linux achieved? Jan 31 03:22:12 Mortimus: can't you emerge kernel build tools and have that ocver it Jan 31 03:22:19 Sun can I put openmoko on my Nextel i930? or my i836? Jan 31 03:23:04 4 hours 54 minutes 27.458 seconds to compile openoffice Jan 31 03:23:23 Mortimus: ouch... that's aloong time Jan 31 03:23:39 Mortimus: ooo always fails builds on me it's frustrating Jan 31 03:24:01 Mortimus: openoffice and firefox are the worst packages in gentoo :-) Jan 31 03:24:09 ok all of you go to www.woot.com make accounts and buy three of the current item... please!!! Jan 31 03:24:17 From compile time Jan 31 03:24:48 BryceL : never did on me X86_64 (although dbus 102 broke a WHOLE lot of things) Jan 31 03:24:59 Mortimus... Jan 31 03:25:33 i run gentoo at work and run abiword and dillo Jan 31 03:26:33 no ooo or firefox Jan 31 03:27:05 i only have to use the box to write up quick docs and rebuild our pxe server kernel Jan 31 03:27:16 BryceL :what desktop? Jan 31 03:27:22 fwvm95 Jan 31 03:27:38 wating for E17 Jan 31 03:28:08 which i'm going to try to port to open moko Jan 31 03:28:13 I run gnome on my computer and XFCE on lighter machines Jan 31 03:28:25 probabably never will succeed but it'll be a nice side project Jan 31 03:29:01 Mortimus: i run Gnome on all my > 900mhz boxes and E16 on the others Jan 31 03:29:59 I think my parents would be confused with enlightenment desktop Jan 31 03:30:12 well that's not quite true, but it's a general rule, alot of the times i'll go into E if i'm just coding or doign terminal work Jan 31 03:30:54 "a lot" Jan 31 03:30:56 Mortimus: i know what you mean my mom's great because i just tell her to click icons and that's all she knows Jan 31 03:30:58 Sorry, was away for a bit. Jan 31 03:31:02 raster was interested in ipaq coding and phones waybackwhen Jan 31 03:31:09 i wonder if he got on the list for a P1 phone Jan 31 03:31:24 alphaone: there's a trick to get the kernel to enable writing on the flash memory. Jan 31 03:31:27 cbpage: dunno would be awesome though Jan 31 03:31:53 he was working on the ipaq with phones in mind, at least Jan 31 03:32:04 can anyone see what I am typing? Jan 31 03:32:07 THose NExtels are Windows based? Jan 31 03:32:08 so the neo has no up-down-left-right keypad even...thats strange. Jan 31 03:32:21 affirmative acidburn Jan 31 03:32:24 lol sorry Jan 31 03:32:31 cbpage: he does great work, E scales amazingly, i mean evas on the Neo1973 could give incredible eyecandy for minimal performance hit Jan 31 03:32:36 Nextel i930 SmartPhone the 836 is JRE Jan 31 03:32:39 yeah :) Jan 31 03:32:56 SuN: Ah, okay. Would be nice to have an official way to flash a new kernel Jan 31 03:33:18 cbpage: you a big e guy? i don't normally find people who know or care about the project... which is kinda sad Jan 31 03:33:43 Anything able to run Windows Mobile can potentially run Linux, the i930 looks capable... there's no way of knowing if everything onboard is supported though. Jan 31 03:33:57 It Jan 31 03:34:06 It's like poking around in the dark with a stick. Jan 31 03:35:20 The i836 doesn't look like it will run Linux. Jan 31 03:35:29 * aloril wonders when some phone will have FPGA Jan 31 03:36:04 aloril oh that sounds nice Jan 31 03:37:48 does anyone know the type of touchscreen technology the neo1973 will have (resistive, capacitive, strain gauge...etc) Jan 31 03:38:15 aloril imagine on demand 3d graphics accell Jan 31 03:38:39 * BryceL gives +10 geek points to gambler Jan 31 03:39:08 gambler: IIRC, resistive Jan 31 03:40:16 * BryceL give aloril +20 geek points for having an answer Jan 31 03:41:08 strain guage and SAW are a bit expensive on displays the size of the neos Jan 31 03:41:28 resistive is really cheap on this size of display Jan 31 03:41:41 * BryceL gives up on points and is just impressed with the caliber of the hardware geeks Jan 31 03:41:43 I have a treo 650.... can I mod it? Jan 31 03:41:57 * SuN hands BryceL +30 geek points for handing out geek points Jan 31 03:41:59 * SpeedEvil hands AcidBurn1 a can of purple paint. Jan 31 03:42:17 First one to reach a hundred gets Virginity Award! Jan 31 03:42:30 lol Jan 31 03:42:57 Do my Glasses of Inexperience give me 1.5x points? Jan 31 03:43:01 where do I get started on the i930 or the treo 650? Jan 31 03:43:02 wow 7300gs 256mb for 50 bucks 5 shipping at woot.com Jan 31 03:43:15 * aloril hopes there are additional wires for fake multitouch Jan 31 03:43:38 AcidBurn1: the treo 650 boots but doesn't make calls Jan 31 03:43:50 Naivety shields are not accepted! Jan 31 03:44:33 lol i would love to have someone give the Neo a iphone skin and get the gimmicks working... i'd die of laughter Jan 31 03:45:13 and now that everyone has that ringtone lol Jan 31 03:45:15 k... where do I get the software to load the 650? just curious to see what it looks like Jan 31 03:46:10 you dont' still use said 650 do you? Jan 31 03:47:59 AcidBurn1: http://www.madingley.org/treo-linux/pictures/ Jan 31 03:48:12 http://www.madingley.org/treo-linux/ Jan 31 03:49:14 AcidBurn1: i'm currently just googling Jan 31 03:49:27 AcidBurn1: i did it back about 5 months ago when i bricked my treo Jan 31 03:50:40 can't find the site.. appears to have gone under Jan 31 03:54:05 lol Jan 31 03:54:15 So what phones can I use? Jan 31 03:54:33 All I need to do is configure a phone / device to use for GPS communications Jan 31 04:00:51 does the neo1973 have bluetooth? i don't see it in the prelim spec Jan 31 04:01:12 no, gen1 doesn't. Jan 31 04:02:25 possibly gen2? Jan 31 04:02:31 err it does have bluetooth Jan 31 04:02:52 what about wifi? Jan 31 04:03:01 Neo1973 has bluetooth no wifi Jan 31 04:03:11 ... yes or no on the bluetooth? Jan 31 04:03:33 yes it does have bluetooth. Jan 31 04:03:40 k Jan 31 04:04:00 hrm, ok. Jan 31 04:04:16 thanks Jan 31 04:04:48 Where can I download openmoko? Jan 31 04:04:48 ozzloy: np Jan 31 04:04:54 AcidBurn1: can't yet Jan 31 04:07:53 AcidBurn1: 2007-02-11 Jan 31 04:07:53 feb 11th you can get it Jan 31 04:10:25 im here Jan 31 04:10:26 lol Jan 31 04:10:35 ah.. lmao Jan 31 04:10:41 so no one has it yet? Jan 31 04:11:33 I want to write an app for it... GPS App that sends to my server.... Jan 31 04:13:13 have yougot open embedded build env setup? Jan 31 04:13:36 checkout the wiki t has some info Jan 31 04:14:08 yu could get the backend code worked on till then Jan 31 04:17:21 ok guys i'm off. gonna try and compile Deeply Embedded Python in my OE environment. au revoir! Jan 31 05:10:10 be a nice addition for the 2nd neo version http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/01/31/0124237 Jan 31 05:10:57 oh, my mistake, i though they were for inside the phone Jan 31 05:29:01 Psi_: well, you can use it with 1st gen neo ;-) Jan 31 05:31:03 aloril, yeah, just isn't as cool now Jan 31 05:31:20 a phone with built in 20GB is much better than some external hdd Jan 31 05:32:43 its still a nice product, the letdown just spoiled it for me, thats all Jan 31 05:33:57 overexpecting is a great way of avoiding to spend money Jan 31 05:34:49 heh Jan 31 05:37:08 still.. battery powered USB hub + battery powered USB disk -> 160GB is nice amount of space Jan 31 07:05:09 hi Jan 31 07:06:09 hi sureshkumar435 Jan 31 07:06:18 hi aloril Jan 31 07:06:40 I need some info regarding the openmoko Jan 31 07:06:44 any idea? Jan 31 07:08:15 Hi aloril R U there? Jan 31 07:09:10 Hi anyone there? Jan 31 07:10:15 I need the information regarding the openmoko support for messaging (SMS or EMS or MMS) Jan 31 07:11:00 Hi Chanserv Jan 31 07:11:20 helloooooo, anyone there to discuss about openmoko Jan 31 07:11:38 libgsmd is going to get support for sending SMS. i heard EMS or MMS support is _very_ tough to implement so we probably skip that Jan 31 07:11:38 sureshkumar435: it will support sms Jan 31 07:11:40 sureshkumar435: ask Jan 31 07:11:50 only SMS Jan 31 07:12:22 ok Jan 31 07:12:48 guten morgen mickeyl! Jan 31 07:13:03 mickeyl: I guess you mean for phase1 and not phase2? Jan 31 07:13:18 Can I find any document or web address saying the messaging support of OPENMOKO Jan 31 07:14:49 koen_: morning. it's too early to call this a good morning, but what gives ;) Jan 31 07:15:15 aloril: it may even be that MMS and EMS needs special support from the GSM chipset (which we don't have). LaF0rge can probably comment on that Jan 31 07:15:38 worth asking on the mailing list anyway Jan 31 07:15:57 ah, that hard, ouch Jan 31 07:16:22 ya, i remember LaF0rge telling something about that Jan 31 07:16:27 but i can't quite remember Jan 31 07:16:32 mickeyl, are you the openmoko developer? Jan 31 07:16:53 sureshkumar435: just a tiny contributor, yes Jan 31 07:17:24 also it would be nice of you if you can give me some mail ID or contact info of LaF0rge Jan 31 07:17:33 just use the mailing list Jan 31 07:17:36 community@openmoko.org Jan 31 07:17:40 it will reach us all Jan 31 07:17:47 or if it's development related Jan 31 07:17:52 openmoko-devel@openmoko.org Jan 31 07:17:59 ok. Thanks for the info Jan 31 07:18:00 s/openmoko.org/lists.openmoko.org/ Jan 31 07:18:01 mickeyl meant: openmoko-devel@lists.openmoko.org Jan 31 07:18:02 np Jan 31 07:18:36 So when are you going to release this one? Jan 31 07:18:57 mid-february goes the code online Jan 31 07:19:00 mid-march the hardware Jan 31 07:20:17 see the links in the topic Jan 31 07:21:53 any info on the net regarding the specifications for the support of messaging (SMS, EMS or MMS)? Jan 31 07:22:39 no, the messaging application is not yet written Jan 31 07:22:46 counter Jan 31 07:22:46 1 week, 3 days 16:05:42 (10.67 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.67 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.67 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 07:23:11 ok Jan 31 07:25:43 mickeyl, are you there? Jan 31 07:26:43 Sorry to ask you again, can you give me the mail IDS to whom I need to mail for the information regarding the messaging (SMS, EMS and MMS) support in OPENMOKO? Jan 31 07:27:05 sureshkumar435: Why so desperate? Jan 31 07:27:10 I would put a mail so that I can gather some info regarding this support? Jan 31 07:27:22 planning to explore that area Jan 31 07:27:26 https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/ Jan 31 07:27:27 sureshkumar435: Patience, the phone isn't out yet :) Jan 31 07:27:51 sureshkumar435: above link has links to community and development mailing lists Jan 31 07:27:55 I am planning to have a project in that Jan 31 07:27:59 sureshkumar435: Look at the topic, it has links to the mailinglists and an unofficial wiki Jan 31 07:30:13 I am unable to access them Jan 31 07:30:23 Shall I register for this Jan 31 07:32:36 sureshkumar435: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/ Jan 31 07:32:45 There you have the archives. :) Jan 31 07:33:14 sureshkumar435: and for devel archives: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/ Jan 31 07:40:51 ok guys thanks for the info Jan 31 07:41:21 Anyhow if you have any webaddress or specification documnet, kindly mail me at sureshkumar435@gmail.com Jan 31 07:41:56 bye for now and waiting for responses from you all Jan 31 07:43:49 Some people always expect others to do all the work for them Jan 31 07:44:13 *nod* Jan 31 07:44:19 And they seem to be more common in certain countries.. Jan 31 07:45:12 * CM has had some trouble working with exchange students from india Jan 31 07:46:45 yes, why aren't you doing all the work for me? Jan 31 07:46:49 lazy bastards Jan 31 07:46:52 :p Jan 31 08:05:58 yo Jan 31 08:06:07 hi Stephmw Jan 31 08:08:23 hey Stephmw Jan 31 08:53:50 sureshkumar435: have you looked at wikipedia SMS page? Jan 31 08:54:08 no, why? Any info there? Jan 31 08:54:15 counter Jan 31 08:54:15 1 week, 3 days 14:34:12 (10.61 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.61 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.61 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 08:54:37 sureshkumar435: there seems to be links to docs about SMS, I haven't looked at those though Jan 31 08:56:03 aaah SMS such a lovely set of specs, 03.40 11.11 11.14 Jan 31 08:56:33 hey XorA, where do I find these specs? Jan 31 08:56:43 www.etsi.org Jan 31 08:57:28 03.48 for secure messaging Jan 31 08:59:46 ROT13? Jan 31 08:59:56 XorA, do you have any idea about the messaging (SMS, EMS or MMS) support in OPEMMOKO? Jan 31 09:00:00 xorAxAx: DES and triple DES Jan 31 09:00:08 hehe Jan 31 09:00:32 sureshkumar435: no, and as there seems to be no software for linux that does MMS I guess it might take a while in developing Jan 31 09:00:48 ok Jan 31 09:01:15 but they have 8 months Jan 31 09:01:22 XorA: Anyhow, are you a developer of OPENMOKO? Jan 31 09:02:03 sureshkumar435: do, but I do write the sound drivers for that platform Jan 31 09:02:44 XorA: Sorry I didnot understand that. Jan 31 09:03:07 sureshkumar435: I dont code openmoko I code kernel stuff Jan 31 09:03:28 XorA: ok. Can you give me some info regarding the developer dealing with messaging? Jan 31 09:03:40 XorA: wow, that took a while to find http://pda.etsi.org/pda/queryform.asp on that site :) Jan 31 09:03:42 sureshkumar435: XorA works on audio subsystem in neo1973 to be exact Jan 31 09:03:48 sureshkumar435: Feb 11th it will all become clear Jan 31 09:03:48 sureshkumar435: All the info is availible on the net, I'm sure you know how to use google :) Jan 31 09:04:11 pH5: my last company was a full member of ETSI so we had them on DVD Jan 31 09:04:24 hrw|work: who r u? are you also a developer? Jan 31 09:04:40 lucky :) Jan 31 09:05:09 sureshkumar435: I'm one of OpenEmbedded core developers. I'm also one of those 50 lucky bastards^Wdevelopers which will get neo1973 for free Jan 31 09:05:12 pH5: I really should have remebered to take one home on my last day Jan 31 09:05:17 sureshkumar435: less than 11 days you should be able to get source code to OpenMoko Jan 31 09:06:38 sureshkumar435: Feel free to write a summary of all info about sms and mms that you've manage to gather. No one will do your work for you, but feel free to contribute yours to the official wiki once it's open. :) Jan 31 09:06:59 Sure Jan 31 09:07:09 mms is just a mime email Jan 31 09:07:23 network sends you an sms to tell phone to pull the mms Jan 31 09:07:47 Doesn't sound all that complicated Jan 31 09:08:08 hrw|work: do you have idea of messaging (SMS, EMS or MMS) support in Openmoko? Jan 31 09:08:32 CM: Ya it seems to be Jan 31 09:13:18 sureshkumar435: from what I heard there is none at the moment Jan 31 09:13:45 you mean to say that there is noo support at all? Jan 31 09:14:40 I'd love to see an integrated client for SMS/EMS/MMS + POP/IMAP based on tinymail Jan 31 09:15:02 pH5: you dah man Jan 31 09:16:30 * XorA crosses fingers that new asoc works Jan 31 09:17:01 XorA: did lrg finish rc3 already? Jan 31 09:18:02 I'd like a mail/sms/mms/etc client that shows a combined view of inbox/outbox/sentbox/draftbox and threads the messages in that. I've used FirstClass (not OSS; firstclass.com) and I'm really used to the interface. Jan 31 09:18:05 pH5: Im am just about to test on neo Jan 31 09:18:54 XorA: neo mixer is less complicated then c7x0^Wwm8731 one? Jan 31 09:19:07 hrw|work: nope, worse Jan 31 09:19:15 hrw|work: worse than spitz as well Jan 31 09:19:45 XorA: does gsm <--> bt pcm go through the codec on neo? Jan 31 09:20:04 * pH5 can't wait to test rc3 on the magician Jan 31 09:20:24 pH5: I cant release hardware info Jan 31 09:20:29 * XorA points to his NDA Jan 31 09:20:58 ah right, guess I'll have to wait and see for myself :) Jan 31 09:21:17 Hey guys, sorry to say this, I am unable to understand any of the above messages? Jan 31 09:21:36 sureshkumar435: I do not know do you able or not. Jan 31 09:21:44 Hehe Jan 31 09:22:03 Anyhow, I need to confirm the messaging support in Openmoko along with some supporting document or link? Jan 31 09:22:25 sureshkumar435: We do not get what you want either. It seems like you talk another languge some times. Jan 31 09:22:28 sureshkumar435: let me guess, you are not a developer and expect to just right in and code complex stuff like SMS :-) Jan 31 09:22:46 right, i've just sorted out hardware ecc correct code for the 2410 nand flash driver Jan 31 09:24:03 XorA: Yes, I am not a developer and I was planning to collect this info, so that I can plan for a project in this? Can anyone of you developers give me some info regarding this support? Jan 31 09:24:12 sureshkumar435: I think its too early to answer your question, OpenMoko is under development Jan 31 09:24:46 sureshkumar435: we have given you a ton of info, you dont seem to know enough about SMS to understand what we talk about Jan 31 09:24:49 sureshkumar435: really the only way you can get more info is to contact FIC directly - especially if you're thinking of a commercial project Jan 31 09:25:40 sureshkumar435: for some of what you want it seems answer is "not yet" but then at 2007-02-11 answer might be different and again at 2007-03-11 answer is probably different Jan 31 09:26:10 and of course at 2007-09-11 again different ;-) Jan 31 09:26:17 XorA: Let me be clear, I am not asking for info regarding SMS? I am keen to get the suppotive information for openmoko? Jan 31 09:26:45 aloril: I understand that, but my collection of information is regarding the current status Jan 31 09:27:17 aloril: May be it can change everyday also Jan 31 09:27:22 sureshkumar435: I think when you can get device 2007-03-11 it will support SMS, but maybe not EMS or MMS (but I'm guessing of course) Jan 31 09:28:16 sureshkumar435: also I suspect sending SMS is probably going to be fairly easy from your own code Jan 31 09:28:24 aloril: I hope we can make it by 2007-02-11 after knowing the source code. what do you say? Jan 31 09:28:58 sureshkumar435: I think you won't get much info before source code is released at 2007-02-11 Jan 31 09:29:25 sureshkumar435: developers are under NDA Jan 31 09:29:31 aloril: yep, may be? anyhow, are you also a developer of Openmoko? Jan 31 09:29:52 sureshkumar435: Take a look at libgsm once the code is released Jan 31 09:30:01 sureshkumar435: well.. in a sense I'm, I have coded Linux programs Jan 31 09:30:13 hrw|work: ping Jan 31 09:30:15 aloril: NDA ==> Non-disclosure Agreement Jan 31 09:30:25 aloril: ok Jan 31 09:30:29 sureshkumar435: but if you mean OpenMoko specific things, then no, I'm waiting for source code release as is any other developer without NDA Jan 31 09:30:39 aloril: ok Jan 31 10:00:37 what will be filesystem on openmoko? Jan 31 10:01:22 koljoman - As I heard: jffs2. Jan 31 10:01:42 MDK: pong Jan 31 10:03:09 CM: libgsm is other thing Jan 31 10:03:42 libgsm1 - Shared libraries for GSM speech compressor Jan 31 10:04:30 (I know, that's another libgsm. But still there is a naming conflict.) Jan 31 10:04:52 Elrond: Can you be clear on the libgsm? Jan 31 10:05:09 OT: can someone fix spelling? 'hunt for foxes' Jan 31 10:06:25 sureshkumar435 - openmoko's libgsm is for talking AT-commands to the gsm module. The normal libgsm is for the gsm-audio-codec. Jan 31 10:07:10 Elrond: Thx for the explanation. Jan 31 10:08:00 We probably need to resolve that erarlier or later. Jan 31 10:08:43 Elrond: Anyhow are you one of the developers of OpenMoko? Jan 31 10:09:29 sureshkumar435 - You mean one of the paid ones: No. Jan 31 10:09:58 Elrond: I mean the ones under NDA Jan 31 10:10:05 Elrond: Ah, thanks for clearing up that libgsm thing :) Jan 31 10:10:43 sureshkumar435 - tihi... No NDA here. :) Jan 31 10:11:16 CM - No problem. Jan 31 10:12:39 Elrond: Anyhow, I need to confirm the messaging support in Openmoko along with some supporting document or link? Any idea on this Jan 31 10:12:58 sureshkumar435: Wait a few weeks Jan 31 10:13:14 sureshkumar435 - What do you mean by "messaging support"? Jan 31 10:13:18 Of course there will be sms support, it's a phone Jan 31 10:13:40 Elrond: Support for SMS, EMS and MMS Jan 31 10:13:41 sureshkumar435: And what kind of "confirmation" is it that you're after? Jan 31 10:14:00 CM - Except, there's no text entry currently. ;o) Jan 31 10:14:27 (at least, that's, what I gathered. ;) ) Jan 31 10:14:31 * CM is expecting all of the above to be implemented eventually Jan 31 10:14:50 (text input, sms, mms later maybe..) Jan 31 10:14:52 CM: I need to submit my primary information gathering to my Project guide Jan 31 10:15:18 So planning to collect any supportive document Jan 31 10:15:23 sureshkumar435: I see. Guess you can say that it's planned but not developed yet. About ems I don't know Jan 31 10:15:36 sureshkumar435 - You can expect the phone to work for calling your mom, when it is open for order. But for anything else, you have to wait at least 3 weeks. Jan 31 10:16:06 sureshkumar435 - See CM. Jan 31 10:16:17 sureshkumar435: what is done and working we will now after 2007.02.11 Jan 31 10:16:36 Right. Jan 31 10:16:53 ok Jan 31 10:17:02 sureshkumar435: then devs will start coding misc things for phone. 2007.03.11 more devs will buy phones so more code will be released Jan 31 10:17:06 hrw|work - BTW: Please use dashes ("-") if you use yyyy-mm-dd :-) Jan 31 10:17:27 Elrond: it depend on locale settings etc.. I'm also used to 20070211 format Jan 31 10:17:44 Elrond: Is that the ISO standard or? Jan 31 10:17:50 CM - Yep. Jan 31 10:18:15 hrw|work - dashes make clear, that the order is Y,M,D. Jan 31 10:18:17 * aloril recalls something like this: 2007-02-11T00:00:00 Jan 31 10:18:38 I never get the yyyy/dd/mm format.. Jan 31 10:18:55 Actually in Netherlands we do dd-mm-yyyy, so with dashes. Jan 31 10:19:09 Or why so many countries swap the lowest two digits in number when you speak Jan 31 10:19:12 b_lindeijer - yuck... Jan 31 10:19:22 Yeah, whatever. :P Jan 31 10:19:44 I hope, there is no locale doing YYYY-DD-MM ? Jan 31 10:19:55 When you tell somebody a date, you say 28th of August, 2007, right? Well so that's what we write. :P Jan 31 10:20:16 123 -> one hundred three and twenty in at least Germany and Denmark.. Where else? Jan 31 10:20:33 b_lindeijer - We (germans) write the same, just with dots. ;) Jan 31 10:20:55 CM: Afrikaans too :-) Jan 31 10:20:57 Elrond: Yeah I realized that. I've been living in Germany for a year now. :) Jan 31 10:21:06 counter Jan 31 10:21:06 1 week, 3 days 13:07:21 (10.55 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.55 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.55 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 10:21:10 Anyway, I need to catch a bus. Jan 31 10:21:12 CM: Also in Netherlands, but I think it's strange anyway. :) Jan 31 10:21:55 aloril: Nice addition with the days :) Jan 31 10:22:15 CM: thanks Jan 31 10:23:01 Is that bitchx logout messages? Jan 31 10:23:16 * CM refer to xorAxAx and ozamosi Jan 31 11:36:04 hrw|work: I'm going to fosdem. Let's make sure we meet there Jan 31 11:50:52 MDK: I will be at OpenEmbedded booth Jan 31 11:51:23 Murder Death Kill Jan 31 11:51:26 :-D Jan 31 11:52:28 Suresh is waiting for express replies from the dev-list :) Jan 31 12:04:23 Ah FOSDEM, that'd be cool. I went there in 2005, but at the moment I would have to search hard for travel companions. Jan 31 12:04:33 At least so far I don't have any open-source crazy friends here in Darmstadt, heh. Jan 31 12:18:35 hrw|work: ok. i don't think we/nokia are going to have a booth Jan 31 12:18:38 prolly not Jan 31 12:19:33 MDK: you work for nokia? Jan 31 12:27:17 yes, osso Jan 31 12:27:32 770 & n800 stuff that is Jan 31 12:28:19 I missed n770 devel program. or wrote bad letter then Jan 31 12:28:46 MDK: hi Jan 31 12:28:58 can the 770/800 share the wlan through bluetooth? Jan 31 12:29:38 Or vice versa, using the bluetooth for networking Jan 31 12:30:06 MDK: With the N800 is there any way / plan for a completely open SW stack? without the proprietary bits? Jan 31 12:30:09 MDK: I was going to ask how you got onto IRC, but then saw you're not connecting from the corporate firewall ;) Jan 31 12:31:41 counter Jan 31 12:31:41 1 week, 3 days 10:56:45 (10.46 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.46 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.46 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 12:31:48 less than 1.5 weeks now Jan 31 12:32:00 aloril: shipping takes time... Jan 31 12:32:12 hrw|work: hehe, I was counting to source code release Jan 31 12:34:46 (dunno if it will be released exactly 2007-02-11T00:00:00 UTC though ;-) Jan 31 12:37:40 aloril: Count on Hawaian time, like with the press release.. ;) Jan 31 12:39:28 CM: hehe and 23:59:59 too Jan 31 12:40:24 XorA: I know you can't talk about the hardware... but did they finally agree to stick the V12 in it? Jan 31 12:40:37 Stephmw: V12? Jan 31 12:41:07 XorA: http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Jan 31 12:41:44 looks like that might take a bit more than a battery to turn over for the first time Jan 31 12:41:50 Oh boy, I just read back the overnight discussion with sureshkumar435. Jan 31 12:42:23 Morget: yeah amazing, isn't it Jan 31 12:42:30 Stunning Jan 31 12:43:11 What amazes me most is that people here were so polite :) Jan 31 12:43:29 But I think I got feel for the "project" he is working on. It sounded to me like he's a lawyer, and wanted to pin down an official developer, in order to start litigation over some SMS-related patent crap. Jan 31 12:43:34 "So you developer of OPENMOKO?" Jan 31 12:44:05 lol Jan 31 12:44:19 Yeah, exactly --- that insistence on contacting an official developer says "LAWYER" in capitals to me. Jan 31 12:44:32 then he cross posted on the lists! Jan 31 12:44:34 as if lawyers know how to IRC Jan 31 12:45:59 Ycros: nice Jan 31 12:46:01 :) Jan 31 12:46:12 I wish mine did Jan 31 12:46:32 Wouldn't surprise me if it was a lawyer from the LiMo Foundation, since they are making it an official requirement to keep GPL sources closed. Jan 31 12:46:40 my dog can IRC, and sometimes does...sorry for that btw Jan 31 12:46:47 LiMo? Jan 31 12:46:56 The big 6 in mobile phones, excepting Nokia. Jan 31 12:47:05 Ugh...LiMo -- L is for looser Jan 31 12:47:06 Linux Mobile Foundation Jan 31 12:47:29 Totally clueless announcement they made recently. Jan 31 12:47:39 s/looser/loser/ Jan 31 12:47:39 jaebird meant: Ugh...LiMo -- L is for loser Jan 31 12:48:02 Are they meaning till they ship phones to users? In which case it's just fine. Jan 31 12:48:13 I've got a quote: Jan 31 12:48:15 They just don't _get_ it Jan 31 12:48:38 "Jan. 25, 2007 - Six of the world's largest telecom companies launch the Linux Mobile (LiMo) Foundation: Motorola, NEC, NTT DoCoMo, P Jan 31 12:48:38 anasonic, Samsung, and Vodafone. The LiMo specification will be released under an open source license such as the GPL, but kernel a Jan 31 12:48:38 nd middleware will be released under the Foundation Public License. The FPL forbids source code distribution to non-members of the Jan 31 12:48:39 Foundation under any terms." Jan 31 12:49:00 That last sentence is brilliant... Morons Jan 31 12:49:04 kernel under FPL, that is a good one Jan 31 12:49:23 someone should tell them to get off the drugs Jan 31 12:49:29 or share Jan 31 12:49:35 Wait and sue :) Jan 31 12:50:02 * Elrond doesn't have the money for sueding them :-( Jan 31 12:50:06 it is sad to see moto involved in this Jan 31 12:50:32 kinda reminds me of that other defunct linux organization with SCO...UnitedLinux Jan 31 12:50:36 I think we're going to get a lot of comedy from that quarter. I wonder if Linus could sue, since he has the trademark on the word "Linux". Jan 31 12:50:51 Elrond: You also need copyright on the code they use. meaning kernel code. Jan 31 12:51:07 It's a job for gpl-violations.org, again. Jan 31 12:51:12 Yep Jan 31 12:51:16 Yep. Jan 31 12:51:26 we need a superhero persona for gpl-violations Jan 31 12:51:27 I suppose it's not impossible they could have reimplemented a kernel. Jan 31 12:51:34 Plus a job for Linus on the use of his trademark in their Foundation name. Jan 31 12:51:38 Didn't mickeyl have contacts to gpl-violations.org? Jan 31 12:51:42 "This is a job for gpl-violations guy!" Jan 31 12:51:51 Unlikely, but with that sort of money. Jan 31 12:52:14 Elrond: LaF0rge is the the half of gpl-violations.org. Doing it alone for many years. Jan 31 12:52:31 stefan_schmidt - Ahh, right. :) Jan 31 12:52:35 they have been busy Jan 31 12:53:10 Elrond: The problem is that fighting with vendors cost development time. :( Jan 31 12:53:36 stefan_schmidt - Oh yeah. :-( Jan 31 12:54:06 Like pointlessly trying to cooperate with people, who do nearly the same. :-| Jan 31 12:54:08 maybe I recall wrong, but some article talked about kernel being GPL and middleware being closed Jan 31 12:54:16 Perhaps we could get Groklaw interested in the LiMo Foundation. Jan 31 12:54:18 maybe its just error in press release ;-) Jan 31 12:54:40 maybe the LiMo Foundation doesn't really exist Jan 31 12:54:50 aloril: yes indeed Jan 31 12:54:53 and they are trying to get FIC to go back to PC stuff Jan 31 12:55:08 Stephmw: Heavy engine btw, 7,600,000 nm torque and 108,920 hp Jan 31 12:55:08 jaebird - You mean, it's a hoax to distract us from real development? Jan 31 12:55:22 Elrond: exactly Jan 31 12:55:33 the mafia does it well Jan 31 12:55:34 CM: it's a must-have Jan 31 12:55:45 Well, the first action of LiMo could have been to appoint lawyer sureshkumar435 and see what he can dig up ;-) Jan 31 12:55:55 * CM hopes it comes with a fpga... Jan 31 12:55:58 Morgret: nice Jan 31 12:56:03 what's the bot's name again? Jan 31 12:56:11 apt, botsnack Jan 31 12:56:11 jaebird: thanks Jan 31 12:56:19 Elrond: Which people you mean with doing the same? FSF? They cooperate. Jan 31 12:56:23 jaebird: cheers Jan 31 12:56:54 stefan_schmidt - Nothing relevant to this channel. :) Jan 31 12:57:11 Elrond: :) Jan 31 12:57:16 this was a fun sidetrack tho Jan 31 12:57:32 conspiracy theories are fun :) Jan 31 12:57:39 Morgret - What's about sureshkumar435? Jan 31 12:58:16 night all... Jan 31 12:58:26 time for work Jan 31 12:59:16 Elrond: read back from about 0745 GMT to 1100 GMT -- sureshkumar435 was making the kind of annoying insistent remarks that only a lawyer would. Jan 31 12:59:55 Morgret - I just saw the final questions on sms stuff. Jan 31 13:00:56 Lawyers can be programmers too! Jan 31 13:01:14 He kept insisting on talking to "a developer" that could provide information on "SMS EMS and MMS in OPENMOKO" for him, and he needed a confirmation Jan 31 13:01:17 jaebird: things are changing in the correct directon afaik Jan 31 13:01:52 I'd have answered: "everyone is a developer of OpenMoko", and "the SMS functionality will be whatever the community puts into it", and "the date for stuff to appear is the date on which someone codes it". Jan 31 13:01:57 CM - Ahh, yeah. I ran away for food. ;) Jan 31 13:02:13 Elrond: I should have too ;) Jan 31 13:02:25 Morgret: ahhh, but our way kept him asking and we got an email traiil out of it Jan 31 13:02:35 Stephmw: hehehe Jan 31 13:02:55 Morgret: remember what the police says about nuisance callers... keep em talking so we can trace them Jan 31 13:03:05 I really find it hard to be polite and patient some times.. Jan 31 13:03:29 hrw|work: You're tireless on that btw, always polite and helpful. Kudos! :) Jan 31 13:03:38 Stephmw: well done ;-) Jan 31 13:03:54 CM: I just step back when that happens Jan 31 13:04:08 SpeedEvil: yeah, they can, look at the RIAA Jan 31 13:04:13 CM - I have mostly given up on that. If I don't want to be polite, I go away. :-| Jan 31 13:04:21 Stephmw: Guess my problem is that I like to argue.. ;) Jan 31 13:04:50 "step back" is the polite version of "go away", right? :-) Jan 31 13:04:51 CM: oh no you don't! Jan 31 13:04:54 * Stephmw hides Jan 31 13:05:01 :P Jan 31 13:05:06 Elrond: just go afk for a cuppa tea Jan 31 13:05:25 Elrond: that way you spread the angst amongst more people :) Jan 31 13:05:54 * CM listens to S.O.A.D and gets some crappy code ready for work.. Jan 31 13:06:19 * aloril wonders how feasible and useful including FPGA would be Jan 31 13:06:34 Stephmw - Yeah. I went for food at sureshkumar435 time. ;) Jan 31 13:06:46 aloril: In what? Jan 31 13:06:49 ie.. price not too high, power draw enough low and still enough powerful to do stuff Jan 31 13:06:54 * Stephmw waits patiently for his crappy code to write itself Jan 31 13:07:03 Morgret: in phone Jan 31 13:07:13 (for example v3 maybe?) Jan 31 13:07:28 aloril - I guess, it sounds cool, but wouldn't be used by many developers. Jan 31 13:07:43 Oh, v3.... let's say v4. ;) Jan 31 13:07:58 FPGAs vary in power use. Jan 31 13:08:15 However, they are very rarely the most power efficient way of doing things. Jan 31 13:08:36 They are _not_ a magic bullet by any means, even being 'programmable'. Jan 31 13:08:36 Right. They're just insanely fast. ;) Jan 31 13:08:54 aloril: well low-end ones cost nothing, but high-end ones like Xilinx's are going to be too costly for a phone. The functionality really depends on one's imagination. Jan 31 13:08:54 stick the fpga with a battery into a usb dongle Jan 31 13:08:55 Elrond: many stuff that FPGA could do better than main CPU are done even better with special ASIC (wifi, decdoding video, etc..) Jan 31 13:09:25 Morgret: I suspect high end ones draw too much power too Jan 31 13:09:33 Morgret: urgh. that brought back some bad memories... Xilinx and their VSDL (iirc) at Uni Jan 31 13:09:35 aloril: yep Jan 31 13:09:51 They are generally suited to much larger tasks than phone, where the power can be compared with desktop type processors. Jan 31 13:10:00 They don't really scale down well. Jan 31 13:10:16 Power/compute unit rather, in special tasks. Jan 31 13:10:28 Stephmw: umm.. yes that is option, though USB speed is a bit low in v1 (though if no much communication needed, then could do) Jan 31 13:10:52 Btw, I think I remember reading that the micro-SD was underneath the battery, and not accessible from outside. Is that correct? Jan 31 13:10:56 yes Jan 31 13:11:24 It's probably possible to make an extender card, that has a plug on one end, a printed wire coming round the battery and a socket on the back. Jan 31 13:11:26 SpeedEvil: OK, so on desktop there are various tasks where they can outperform cheaply in some tasks generic CPUs (like 10x or more) Jan 31 13:11:28 Or a replacement battery. Jan 31 13:11:29 But it's accessible after opening and removing the battery. Jan 31 13:11:55 K. A bit limiting, but we'll live with it. There's always USB and Bt for transferring data in. Jan 31 13:12:08 aloril: Basically, yes. They get disproportionately better as the number of gates rises. Jan 31 13:12:20 And GPRS Jan 31 13:12:34 Morgret: that setup simplifies the software a little as well... no live mounting/unmounting by users Jan 31 13:12:36 (based on this hour long video: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-4969729965240981475 ) Jan 31 13:13:07 Stephmw: aye, although I'm sure that wasn't the deciding factor. It's a tight place inside a phone. Jan 31 13:13:29 SpeedEvil: OK, so probably doesn't make sense on v1-v3 Jan 31 13:13:31 I have not looked at FPGAs in the last couple of years though, things may have changed - I suspect not. Jan 31 13:14:25 I would expect an extender cable round to the back of the battery would work just fine though. Possibly for SDIO cards too. Jan 31 13:14:51 However, that lets you add wireless at the cost of no storage. Jan 31 13:15:40 I remember reading some article a few years ago about ati emulating their next gen gpus in some huge fpga. Jan 31 13:16:07 It only ran in 5kHz or so, but they ran quake on it :) Jan 31 13:16:24 It's faster than software simulation. Jan 31 13:16:25 nutters :) Jan 31 13:16:28 and true geeks. Jan 31 13:16:30 Which is your other alternative. Jan 31 13:16:32 Not really. Jan 31 13:16:44 Have any radio amateurs expressed interest in Neo/OM, to turn it into a non-GSM ham handheld? Jan 31 13:16:47 Do you really want to find glitches in built silicon? Jan 31 13:17:13 SpeedEvil: SOP for Intel it seems Jan 31 13:17:14 Where it costs many hundreds of thousands to fix? Jan 31 13:17:14 opengraphics project is building their GPU on top of large FPGA too Jan 31 13:17:37 Finding glitches like F00F is _hard_. Jan 31 13:17:50 You simply can't simulate enough to get it. Jan 31 13:18:09 Even with an actual processor, it's not possible in some cases. Jan 31 13:18:15 Usually it's no problem to run a modern FPGA at about 50MHz Jan 31 13:19:00 But, if you're having to use multiples, clock speeds will be killed by having to bring internal busses through pins. Jan 31 13:19:46 http://wiki.duskglow.com/tiki-index.php?page=Open-Graphics Jan 31 13:19:50 Morgret: why would any want to? Jan 31 13:19:50 (opengraphics) Jan 31 13:19:55 (ham) Jan 31 13:20:08 Neglecting the fact that the GSM radio can't do that. Jan 31 13:20:17 you could use an fpga, but most are designed for speed and not power consumption Jan 31 13:20:35 SpeedEvil: to save reinventing the open-PDA half of it a ham handheld. Jan 31 13:21:43 SpeedEvil: after all, radio amateurs can do a lot more original stuff with the airwaves than we can over GSM. Doing that with a fully programmable Linux handheld would rock. Jan 31 13:21:59 i don't know if there is *any* fpga that does not consume a whole lot too much power for a portable device Jan 31 13:22:10 There are limits on what you can send as a ham though. Jan 31 13:22:28 Not to mention limited bandwidths. Jan 31 13:22:44 Most places prohibit mobile data, and code other than voice. Jan 31 13:23:08 many anyway Jan 31 13:23:26 Can speex codec be used in a mobile phone? Jan 31 13:23:52 speex? Jan 31 13:24:01 SpeedEvil: sure, but there is also a lot more flexibility in general. You have direct access to channel selection for example, which you don't in GSM, and you can scan across a ton of repeaters and bands etc. The ham scanners are really powerful (closed) devices, and it could be done in OM. Jan 31 13:24:07 Oh - sure, over GPRS Jan 31 13:24:19 Hmm. Jan 31 13:24:44 The easy way I suspect is a USB radio. Jan 31 13:24:51 Or bluetooth. Jan 31 13:26:19 XVampireX: we don't have (on the neo) complete access to GSM. Just AT codes talking to the modem. It's possible that we can't send random data over the air during a call. Jan 31 13:27:04 It'd be really nice for neo-neo calls to be able to drop to another codec and have a low-bitrate side-channel alongside the voice call. Jan 31 13:27:49 Presumably the AT interface is one that FIC or HTC used in a previous phone. I guess we'll get specs in a week anyway. Jan 31 13:28:20 there is, iirc, an at command spec for accessesing phone mdoules Jan 31 13:28:26 Morgret - We'll get libgsm (which has a naming conflict) in a week. ;) Jan 31 13:28:38 Good good Jan 31 13:28:48 counter Jan 31 13:28:49 1 week, 3 days 09:59:38 (10.42 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 1 month, 1 week, 3 days (38.42 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 1 week, 3 days (222.42 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 13:28:53 SpeedEvil: True :P Jan 31 13:28:57 s/a week/`counter`/ Jan 31 13:30:20 The AT spec can't be *too* limiting anyway, because in theory our Neo is the exact same hardware that FIC will be selling in huge numbers as WinMobile phones. Jan 31 13:30:22 * aloril hopes v2 can do simultaneous voice and data: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Class_A_GPRS_Phones Jan 31 13:31:46 Morgret - Any info on the price for that? Jan 31 13:33:07 counter Jan 31 13:33:07 a week, 3 days 09:55:19 (10.41 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.41 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.41 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 13:34:21 aloril: lol, is there only one phone in the A-list, the Nokia N93? Or is my browser screwed ... Jan 31 13:35:18 Will the "mass market" phone be also $350? Jan 31 13:36:31 Morgret: yeah, though I think some upcoming nokia too will be there (from nokia site of upcoming phones, maybe next version of N93 (N94 or N95?, don't recall)) Jan 31 13:36:31 Don't think we really know. Obviously they'll change the price as sales proceed, it's natural. Jan 31 13:37:13 Yeah. I hope, they wont make it more expensive. Jan 31 13:37:46 Although resellers like to make some money. ;o) Jan 31 13:38:37 * aloril thinks its pretty cheap, 'alternatives' seem to be 500-1000 EUR (not really in radar anymore because there is now neo ;-) Jan 31 13:39:17 Eh.. I'd pay more for something with more power and wifi when open wifi drivers can be made available Jan 31 13:39:29 aloril - Yep. My other toy-of-choice is 400Eur (not a phone). Jan 31 13:40:12 leventhal - The neo looks straight perfect to me. Except I like more buttons. ;o) Jan 31 13:40:32 any idea what kind of nand flash is used? Jan 31 13:40:50 GPRS is ridiculously expensive here but wifi is widely available downtown Jan 31 13:41:19 My ideal phone would let me use centericq and skype over wifi Jan 31 13:41:28 there are 2 features I would like: multitouch support in hardware (software no need, that can be added later) and simultaneous voice/data Jan 31 13:41:46 skype. yuck. Jan 31 13:42:06 But the neo is pretty close to what I'd want.. And cheap enough that I might buy it as a holdover to phase 2 once my current phone dies. Jan 31 13:42:56 Well.. skype or a sip softphone Jan 31 13:43:25 sip is fine. Jan 31 13:43:50 I'm quite pissed by any closed source currently. Jan 31 13:44:33 Understandable.. just when I'm calling Canada-Malta, skype to skype is a hell of a lot cheaper than any voip to ptsn network here Jan 31 13:44:55 and no go getting folks to switch to, say, voip-user.org Jan 31 13:45:02 I even bought my pc for work, so I do not have to install any closed x11 graphics driver. And then was urged to install skype. ;o) Jan 31 13:45:14 Er.. voipuser.org Jan 31 13:45:29 what Jan 31 13:45:36 's wrong with skyp? Jan 31 13:45:40 anybody knows if the flash is directly supported by the mtd drivers of the kernel, or if it is some proprietary stuff (e.g. diskonchip)? Jan 31 13:46:24 they're samsungs probably too :p Jan 31 13:46:41 chef - It's probably either supported by mtd, or FIC will release a change to the kernel (under gpl). Jan 31 13:47:11 ynezz - skype is closed binary stuff. You can't audit it. Jan 31 13:47:16 elrond - i am somewhat pissy, 'cause trolltech used diskonchip and trueffs Jan 31 13:47:23 ynezz - I'm paranoid enough to run it in a sub-X-Server. Jan 31 13:47:49 i hope that there will be a really free phone... Jan 31 13:48:10 chef: how much free-er than the Neo are you looking for? Jan 31 13:48:12 The neo comes close - though the GSM bit isn't open. Jan 31 13:48:42 If the GSM bit wassas open, it'd be an imprisonable offecnce to operate many places I expect. Jan 31 13:49:05 SpeedEvil: maybe not prison, but very, very big fines Jan 31 13:49:07 i only read the prelim. specs and have no idea how free it will be Jan 31 13:49:24 GSM part is open. it is gsm modem which is operated with AT commands. Jan 31 13:49:32 SpeedEvil: iirc, in some countries the fines for violating airwave regulations are uncapped Jan 31 13:49:33 I think the UK legislation on 'chipping' would cover it. Jan 31 13:49:41 list of commands is available, gsm specs are available. Jan 31 13:49:44 And they are imprisonable offences. Jan 31 13:50:03 you should not need datasheet of gsm chipset to be able to use it as GSM Jan 31 13:50:08 Well - the GSM part isn't really open then is it - if you can't for example run multiple SIMS connected over bluetooth Jan 31 13:50:10 closed is GPS daemon Jan 31 13:50:16 SpeedEvil: and most of the reason behind those harsh regulations is cold war and WW2 stuff Jan 31 13:50:27 Don't forget terrorism! Jan 31 13:50:53 yah. I'm surprised strong crypt hasn't been re-embargoed Jan 31 13:50:58 A lot of cool stuff could be done by a truly open GSM radio. Without any illegality at all. Jan 31 13:51:40 Though for strong crypt, neos with one-time-pads loaded on the SD could be pretty good. Jan 31 13:53:12 chef - it is very difficult to get a nand chip that isn't just directly supported by the s3c2410 nand driver (via mtd) Jan 31 13:53:24 I bet the cryptophone.de guys could be persuaded to sell software for neo Jan 31 13:53:46 And since they offer their source for review there'll probably be a few copies floating in the phreak circles before they do Jan 31 13:54:12 i'm just finishing the update for the s3c2410 nand to correct any bit errors when using the hardware based ecc generator Jan 31 13:54:26 are all licensing issue solved so far? or are these things still rumours? Jan 31 13:55:11 dunno, part of my job is to do core 2410 work Jan 31 13:55:18 People need to stop saying that the GPS daemon is closed. It's an A-GPS daemon, and the GPS control itself is entirely open -- we talk to the device in the same way as agpsd talks to it. Ignore the agpsd, it's a cukkoo. Jan 31 13:56:21 Morgret - You sure? We could just drop the closed daemon and drop in some free (as in free speach) one? Jan 31 13:56:29 why would GPL firmware for GSM subsystem be illegal? I guess using modified version of it without re-certifying would be in many places ;-) Jan 31 13:56:49 fluffs - i think i'll give it a try sometime -- as said i am disappointed from trolltech and the greenphone. the support is somewhat bad Jan 31 13:56:53 aloril - "it would be too easy to modify". bla bla. ;) Jan 31 13:57:11 aloril: I believe that _distributing_ such a modifiable would itself breach regulations Jan 31 13:57:18 Morgret: umm... yes, but you need to 1) decipher what GPS chip talks 2) have software that does actual calculations (I think part 2 already exists) Jan 31 13:57:20 fluffs - and installing a recent kernel seems impossible without the trueffs drivers (only with nda) Jan 31 13:57:21 If our only access to GPS were through the closed agpsd daemon, then FIC would have broken their promise of fully open hardware. And what's more, they then could have included wifi on the same basis. Jan 31 13:58:34 Stephmw: is actually illegal or is just impossible to certify one? ;-) Jan 31 13:58:36 Morgret - We probably should wait 1,5 weeks. ;) Jan 31 13:59:09 aloril: no, we won't need to decipher the comms at the h/w interface, because we'll be told them. Otherwise it's closed (or at least undisclosed) hardware, and that's NOT the message we've been getting from FIC. Jan 31 13:59:17 Elrond: yeah Jan 31 13:59:33 morgret - the problem with fully open hardware starts with the manufacturers of the chips. they do not publish data sheets for decent stuff. Jan 31 13:59:55 Morgret: well.. they did say it was closed daemon from start, didn't they? (but I except replacement should be too hard to write, we can observe output/input of daemon) Jan 31 13:59:56 aloril: I believe it's actually against the regulation. Illegality will vary greatly in each jurisdiction Jan 31 14:00:07 chef: yes, but we don't have direct access to the chips, only to the h/w interface that FIC provides to it. Jan 31 14:00:40 Morgret: ah.. hm.. I suspect there won't be datasheet, that we need to decipher (but hopefully I'm wrong) Jan 31 14:00:52 morgret - of what chips are you speaking? some will surely be mapped to memory. Jan 31 14:01:23 chef: this is how they've made the phone "open" ... by taking the stuff which can't be accessed directly behind a hardware interface that we *can* access. Jan 31 14:01:32 Stephmw: ah.. hmm... but you can flash Neo GSM susbsystem ;-) (though doing that without turning it into brick would require something extra ;-) Jan 31 14:02:15 aloril: I doubt the flash distributable would be anything other than a blob - likely signed Jan 31 14:02:31 aloril - Well, you can wait for the first gsm firmware to be downloadable... and then have fun disassembling it. ;o) Jan 31 14:02:32 chef: we don't know yet, but it must apply to *all* chips that cannot be openned fully. Jan 31 14:03:56 Stephmw: actually there might not be any binary blob even, what I mean is that its possible to reflash GSM: problem is to find something useful to flash it with without making it brick ;-) Jan 31 14:03:57 ok, but then e.g. gsm could be only accessible via at commands which then fulfills this promise --- but possibly gives not enough freedom Jan 31 14:04:01 Has Sean ever been in here? Or only under disguise? ;) Jan 31 14:04:40 aloril: ah, I see what you mean Jan 31 14:04:54 If we need to reverse engineer anything at all that is accessible by the host CPU, then I think the promise of openness has been broken. Obviously binary blobs for the GSM and other loadable firmware are exempt -- they don't run on the SoC. Jan 31 14:04:56 chef - It will give already a lot of freedom. Jan 31 14:05:00 chef: yeah, I think its like PC with GSM modem Jan 31 14:05:32 aloril: from experience with other manufacturers's handsets, typically the on-board flasher does a certificate check against incoming flash requests (and in more than one case also authenticates the flashing device) Jan 31 14:06:13 aloril: that's not necessarily GSM-related though ;) Jan 31 14:06:26 aloril: some OEMs are just bloody paranoid Jan 31 14:06:30 elrond - what about e.g. processing the voice stream? simple example: detection of voice stress Jan 31 14:06:53 chef - All the audio can be routed through the host cpu, if you want. Jan 31 14:06:55 chef: you mean for the sex industry? :-) Jan 31 14:07:34 Morgret - He wants to run that isreal lie detection system ;o) Jan 31 14:07:44 elrond - routed and processed or just recorded? Jan 31 14:07:49 chef - routed and processed. Jan 31 14:08:04 chef: if you have access to the stream, you can do anything you like with it. Jan 31 14:08:20 chef - You can either let the mic go direct to the gsm, or go into the CPU (ADC), process, and then feed to the GSM (DAC) Jan 31 14:08:34 Morgret: well.. http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/11/08#20061108-openmoko-gpl-clarification Jan 31 14:08:47 morgret - not neccessarily Jan 31 14:09:10 Elrond: you'd have to put the mic into the audio codec. the cpu adcs can't do dma Jan 31 14:09:11 chef - Same with the other direction. Jan 31 14:09:44 fluffs - The mic is connected to the audio codec via the mixer, I understand. Jan 31 14:09:51 * CM wants a speech pitch-shifter when calling ;) Jan 31 14:10:05 CM - I think, it should be possible. ;) Jan 31 14:10:12 modulo CPU power. ;o) Jan 31 14:10:26 (you know, it's a P100 equivalent "only") Jan 31 14:10:59 Sure, but just increase or decrease the tone shouldn't take so much power Jan 31 14:11:08 aloril: I'm not sure how to interpret Mickey's sentence about the GPS. It's still perfectly possible that the plain GPS functionality is available in the standalone hardware. Jan 31 14:11:10 aloril - that link is interesting. is it official? Jan 31 14:11:17 Maybe we can get Mickey to clarify Jan 31 14:11:30 chef: writer is main hardware developer Jan 31 14:11:48 umm.. main hardware driver developer (and gpl violations guy too) Jan 31 14:11:52 that sounds nice Jan 31 14:12:06 and the kernel developer won't take any shit either Jan 31 14:12:26 chef: Mickey was on here this morning, battling with sureshkumar435 Jan 31 14:13:06 100 wins out of 100 complaints for gpl-violations shows that ;) Jan 31 14:13:11 fluffs - will there be generic patches or some hardcoded stuff? Jan 31 14:13:20 Morgret: other mails I have seen imply that chip does only receiving stuff and actual calculations are done in software (as that "soft modem GPS" says) Jan 31 14:14:05 aloril: Yes, but if I interpret it correctly it's done on a separete chip Jan 31 14:14:42 aloril - software calculation would mean lots of cpu load Jan 31 14:15:10 chef: i intend on doing generic patches Jan 31 14:15:42 fluffs - nice Jan 31 14:16:04 aloril: if so, that is both good an bad. Bad because in the early days we won't have open GPS. But very good in the long term, because open GPS code will eventually be vastly better than the closed one. Jan 31 14:16:17 but i do some of this stuff because work pays me to Jan 31 14:16:23 like the 2410 nand ecc correction Jan 31 14:16:37 CM: GSM is done in separate chip, GSP is dump chip (IMHO) Jan 31 14:16:46 I'm not sure if GPS code can be "vastly better", but I have no doubt that we will have free GPS daemon at some point somehow Jan 31 14:17:09 (just needs somebody to do it ;) Jan 31 14:17:22 s/GSP/GPS/ Jan 31 14:17:22 aloril meant: CM: GSM is done in separate chip, GPS is dump chip (IMHO) Jan 31 14:17:42 and yeah, the GPS chip is dumb in the way that it doesn't do (at least all of) the calculations necessary, but needs the daemon for that Jan 31 14:17:44 fluffs - currently (in spare time), i try to understand a diskonchip g3 in that d**m greenphone, but i think i'll stop it and wait for this phone Jan 31 14:18:12 fluffs - btw: when will it be available (don't flame me)? Jan 31 14:18:28 most s3c devices just connect nand directly as all s3c24xx chips have dedicated nand controller which understands how to boot the chip from nand Jan 31 14:18:44 chef - no idea, i've not got any info on the particular hardware yet... waiting for the 11th Jan 31 14:18:48 Morgret: look at it this way: if GPS calculation software was running on separate chip: Jan 31 14:18:57 1) more expensive chip Jan 31 14:19:07 2) we could not rewrite that software Jan 31 14:19:13 fluffs - so you are developing w/o hardware? Jan 31 14:20:13 Morgret: it uses standard interfaces, so I think its equivalent to it running it separate chip (except now easier to replace it) Jan 31 14:21:20 * aloril means program <-a-> daemon <-b-> chip: I think 'a' is standard, 'b' is fully documented in a sense that you have source for how to write/read chip Jan 31 14:21:43 (but probably not documentation for content of 'b') Jan 31 14:21:44 aloril: I guess we'll have to see. Although perhaps Mickey will be able to explain further the level of openness of the actual GPS hardware at its interface to SoC. Jan 31 14:22:31 morgret - anyway, i guess that somehow nmea will be available, won't it? Jan 31 14:23:53 there was some guy here that knew person that had written GPS calculation software, so I guess only need to decipher 'b' content Jan 31 14:24:05 chef: developing without that specific hw... difficult to swing the office cat in here without hitting a samsung chip Jan 31 14:24:40 chef: yeah, I think it outputs nmea and you can disable 'a' part (but again, I'm not developer (yet)) Jan 31 14:25:38 aloril - what means yet? Jan 31 14:27:38 or - how to become developer and get early access to the phone? Jan 31 14:27:48 counter Jan 31 14:27:48 a week, 3 days 09:00:38 (10.38 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.38 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.38 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 14:27:53 1.5 weeks for source release Jan 31 14:28:07 chef: well.. if you count developing for linux, then I'm already developer ;-) Jan 31 14:28:34 chef: NMEA's bound to be available out of the closed daemon. But I'm not interested in that, it's not why I'm buying the Neo. Jan 31 14:28:38 ok, how to become a selected developer? Jan 31 14:28:53 see openmoko.com Jan 31 14:30:30 aloril - ok. and how to become 'any' developer? i have no open project that could count. Jan 31 14:30:49 chef: umm.. just order it online when it becomes available Jan 31 14:30:57 The selected developers have already been selected, so don't bother. :P After 11th March, we're all developers. Jan 31 14:31:35 chef: that 'developer' just means that "don't except too much from it from software viewpoint yet" ;-) Jan 31 14:31:44 selected developers got mails about being selected few days ago Jan 31 14:32:58 ok guys, i'll have to split now, but surely will be back around march Jan 31 14:33:03 thanks for the information Jan 31 14:33:06 cya Jan 31 14:33:12 Morgret - http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/11/08#20061108-openmoko-gpl-clarification does sound like a proprietary proctocol between gps chip and agpsd Jan 31 14:34:31 yes, that's pretty much a given Jan 31 14:34:48 Elrond: it can be interpreted that way, but it can also be interpreted as the daemon developers simply not wanting to reveal their algorithms, while the h/w interface is fully documented. We'll see. Jan 31 14:35:29 Hmm, good point, though, I doubt it a bit. We will. Jan 31 14:35:45 the h/w interface is most likely documented. As it has to go thorough "our" kernel. ;) But the protocol on top. ;) Jan 31 14:36:17 mjr: look at it this way: If I'm wrong about the GPS hardware interface not being open, then FIC have zero reason for not including wifi on that exact same basis. Jan 31 14:36:38 Right. Jan 31 14:36:49 well, I was thinking of the protocol Jan 31 14:36:57 mjr: sorry, too many double negatives. I think the h/w interface to GPS will be open, else FIC are inconsistent in what they've said. Jan 31 14:37:02 the interface is an UART, I hear, so no particular closedness there Jan 31 14:37:04 Morgret: wifi requires kernel driver vs agpds being user space? Jan 31 14:37:10 Except for the closed thing not beig in userspace, but in kernel space (for wifi). Jan 31 14:37:22 aloril - Right. Jan 31 14:37:38 and kernel space closed bits are more contested licence-wise and also cause upgrading grief Jan 31 14:38:00 Well, userspace causes upgrading grief sometimes too. Jan 31 14:38:05 Anything running in kernel with few exceptions like MMU and trap and memory and device handling can also be done in user space. Jan 31 14:39:05 Eg. nVidia's binary drivers could trivially run in user-space, without GPL friction. They don't, because it's slower, and harder. Jan 31 14:39:25 Right. Jan 31 14:42:56 I remain hopeful. Mickeyl didn't say the whole GPS subsystem was closed, only that the daemon was closed. Given their emphasis on the open AT-type serial interface to GSM, I'm reading into this that access to the GPS h/w is similarly accessible ... it may be very low level and sordid though. Jan 31 14:43:53 Morgret - And very undocumented. ;o) Jan 31 14:44:26 Elrond: that would suck, if zero doc and zero help in trying to figure it out. Jan 31 14:45:07 Morgret: Totally off topic, but my brain just can't read your nick. Jan 31 14:45:33 I just see my lastname, Mogren, every time :P Jan 31 14:45:45 *G* Jan 31 14:45:50 It's encrypted, patented, trademarked, and rot13'd for good measure :P Jan 31 14:46:51 CM: close to Moglen, as in Eben Jan 31 14:49:37 We'll hope, mickeyl can put some light on the gps situation. Otherwise we have to wait until `counter`. Jan 31 14:54:39 counter Jan 31 14:54:40 a week, 3 days 08:33:47 (10.36 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.36 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.36 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 14:55:00 hopefully we'll get some more, juicy details by FOSDEM-time Jan 31 15:15:07 SpeedEvil - Well, when the first people have their phones, you can expect them to run strace on agpsd ;o) Jan 31 15:15:41 -rall -wall # I don't believe in strace :-) Jan 31 15:16:51 noidd: go straight for the assembly? Jan 31 15:17:00 Or: mv /dev/ttyS17 /dev/ttyS17-orig && ln -s /dev/tty-snoop /dev/ttyS17 Jan 31 15:17:01 ;o) Jan 31 15:22:51 Lots of ways of figuring out what agpsd does. I'd much rather we worked from first principles though, off the serial device stream, because it's not possible to copyright a stream. Jan 31 15:23:39 Morgret - Right, why I suggested the snoop-tty ;) Jan 31 15:24:16 Will be a tough job without docs. :-| Jan 31 15:24:17 Elrond: indeed, although hopefully that's not necessary and we'll have the specs on 11th March. Jan 31 15:24:46 Let's hope. Jan 31 15:24:48 Or 11th Feb Jan 31 15:26:58 Btw, anyone know how the two buttons are interfaced? Will they send signals to dbus? Jan 31 15:28:35 Morgret - No idea. And I wonder, where the power-button is. Jan 31 15:29:40 Presumably it's just one of those two, held down for a few seconds to toggle on/off. Jan 31 15:30:01 Yeah. Jan 31 15:30:26 Unless the touchscreen is such low-power that it's wakeup-on-touch. Jan 31 15:30:32 My guess for normal-operation of the buttons would have been mouse-button-emulation. Jan 31 15:30:35 Doubt it. Jan 31 15:31:34 It's really too few buttons for a geek phone, damn it. Jan 31 15:32:08 wakeup on touch is dangerous Jan 31 15:32:09 I hope, the touchscreen can be power'd down, so that it doesn't react, while I keep the phone in my jacket... Jan 31 15:32:49 Not asking for the 84 buttons on my Nokia Communicator ... but just 2 is .... er, minimalist. :-( Jan 31 15:33:07 Right. Jan 31 15:33:33 Hey, is there an open moko faq for potential developers? im wondering if the pphone will allow access to the "gsm cell id" and also if it supports 3g/gsm Jan 31 15:34:19 simonvc: unknown -- see counter Jan 31 15:34:23 counter Jan 31 15:34:23 a week, 3 days 07:54:03 (10.33 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.33 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.33 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 15:34:36 simonvc - No 3g AFAIK. Jan 31 15:34:55 simonvc - cell id: I'd assume yes. But I'm not sure. Jan 31 15:35:29 What was that? Jan 31 15:35:41 Are we the quick-answer channel? Jan 31 15:35:57 :) Jan 31 15:36:58 This is the OpenMoko Lounge ... we're lounge lizards :-) Jan 31 15:37:31 Okay, I'll take the quick-answer-joker then for this one: "Where's the gps-hw-spec?" ;o) Jan 31 15:38:37 Elrond: waiting for Mickey to appear again to ask about what's available at that h/w port ;-) Jan 31 15:39:01 Elrond: and he may not be able to say, until 11th Jan 31 15:39:12 Yeah... Jan 31 15:39:26 I hope he can at least say that he can't say it. ;) Jan 31 15:39:40 Hehe Jan 31 15:41:01 Well in the meantime, how about more folks trying out their surfing skills to locate specs on the Global Locate Hammerhead chip? After a solid 2 hours, I only found their 2-page glossy, which is useless for engineering. Jan 31 15:41:49 Or dumpster dive behind their HQ .... ;-) Jan 31 15:41:59 Morgret: it's the same with the ti calypso gsm chip, nothing to be found :( Jan 31 15:42:20 Some social engineering seems in order. Jan 31 15:42:51 "Hi, I'm the owner of a company that's making cell phones. Can you please give me technical details on your GPS chip / GSM chip?" Jan 31 15:42:58 pH5: the difference is, we know that our interface to GSM is via the AT serial i/f. In contrast, we have access to a bit more in the hardware for GPS, it seems. maybe. perhaps. who knows :P Jan 31 15:43:27 Adjust sentence accordingly to remove or add any lies :P Jan 31 15:44:36 Pity the old phone phreaker circles kind of died as tech advanced, they were really good at that kind of slyness. Maybe they're still around, but underground. Jan 31 15:44:43 Or in Guantanamo :-( Jan 31 15:46:03 The technology became less stupid, I guess. Jan 31 15:46:10 Yeah Jan 31 15:46:20 Phone companies know better than to trust user input nowadays :) Jan 31 15:46:33 Heh Jan 31 15:46:55 That's because they're entirely staffed by lawyers, for whom lying is a professional skill. Jan 31 15:47:32 (Sorry, that was a reference to the LiMo Foundation :P) Jan 31 15:54:41 Ah, just reading on Mickey's blog ... the phase 0 phones are scheduled to leave Taiwan on the 11th Feb, to those already notified. Jan 31 15:55:50 So even Phase 0 devs won't see the phone until quite a few days after the source is visible to all. Jan 31 15:56:36 did you see the letter to GetAFirstLife.com from linden Labs' lawyers? Jan 31 15:56:46 it was something else Jan 31 15:56:46 Pretty cool. Jan 31 15:57:11 disclaimer: speaking of lawyers, going on a tangeant, etc Jan 31 15:59:08 Yeah, I agree re Second Life ... but their lawyers are not representative of the genre. And furthermore, I doubt that the homour comes from them directly. Jan 31 16:00:11 You have to counterbalance that with RIAA lawyers on the other side, who are barely legal in what they do. Jan 31 16:01:56 When I explain to people what evil is, I use the example of RIAA lawyers to explain that evil people don't necessarily break the law. Jan 31 16:02:13 Yeah, it's sad. Jan 31 16:02:55 Before anyone asks ... no, we won't be able to run the open-source Second Life client on the phone ;-))))) Jan 31 16:03:20 /cry Jan 31 16:03:50 that would be pretty cool ;) Jan 31 16:03:58 Not because all 3D is out of the question (although that will be really hard), but because the SL client is written very badly, and is a resourse hog even on red hot hardware. Jan 31 16:04:40 And the S3C2410 is not red hot hardware ;-))) Jan 31 16:06:27 wait until Neo2 with iMX33 hardware :-) Jan 31 16:06:39 perhaps now that it's open sourced, someone will write a lighter weight client Jan 31 16:06:57 * Sketch can't wait to see an ncurses SL client ;) Jan 31 16:07:17 XorA: that's be old hat by Sept 2008 :-( Jan 31 16:07:30 Sketch: hahahahaha Jan 31 16:08:05 Morgret: at least it has same gfx chip as Dreamcast Jan 31 16:08:24 Well actually, their graphics aren't very good, so ncurses "3D" is not a huuuuge step down. ;-) Jan 31 16:09:00 XorA: you're kidding Jan 31 16:09:11 Morgret: no, the iMX33 is real Jan 31 16:09:38 XorA: Ah no, I was talking about Neo1 :P Jan 31 16:11:30 XorA: do you have a URL for iMX33 -- I've googled a lot of scientology crap Jan 31 16:12:29 cu Jan 31 16:12:46 Morgret: iMX31 + 2 Jan 31 16:12:54 Morgret: from freescale Jan 31 16:13:06 XorA: aha, tnx Jan 31 16:16:43 http://www.freescale.com/files/32bit/doc/data_sheet/MCIMX31.pdf Jan 31 16:16:57 So wherever you see a '1', just add '2' ;-) Jan 31 16:19:36 gimmegimme neo v2 with imx31 Jan 31 16:20:01 hehe ... iMX31 rocks ! Jan 31 16:20:38 and give us the IDE port as headers, maybe we can somehow attach pcmcia then Jan 31 16:20:44 or at the very least compact flash Jan 31 16:20:50 I enjoy playing ... euh working with iMX31 ! Jan 31 16:21:39 is that mpeg4 simple or asp? Jan 31 16:24:03 So bits are 0 or 3? ;o) Jan 31 16:39:29 mhh an electronic dictionary could be handy Jan 31 16:39:35 maybe offline version of wiktionary or some such Jan 31 16:51:52 I could see arguments for volume shipping the thing with a 2GB mini-SD card. In volume, at the time it ships, it's not that much. If we can find enough worthwhile data. Jan 31 16:52:09 ^free Jan 31 16:58:04 Canned bits of wikipedia are an obvious choice. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/2006_Wikipedia_CD_Selection or similar. Jan 31 17:55:02 Wish I could figure out how to turn off people's disconnects from appearing ... but that's a bit like parents figuring out how to stop videos from blinking at 12:00. History runs in cycles. :P Jan 31 17:56:39 *g* Jan 31 17:56:57 Morgret - what client? (not that I really have an answer for my own client ;o) ) Jan 31 17:57:19 Like everyone else on the planet, "I will write my own client one day." :-))))))))))))))) Jan 31 18:02:25 *G* My one is a stock debian install ;) Jan 31 18:25:28 Elrond: Gentoo here on most boxes, although there are some older ones on other distros. Jan 31 18:25:38 http://www.mobile-review.com/fullnews/main/index_eng.shtml#12208 such with openmoko *droool* Jan 31 18:26:54 The concept of "stock install" sort of disappears after you've been with Gentoo a while. It just seems odd that despite everything changing all the time, you're stuck with what the distro allows you. Jan 31 18:28:27 buz: Oh, that's the same Meizu M8 I posted a few days ago. Different URL website though. Jan 31 18:28:40 must have missed it Jan 31 18:29:37 lol their other products are very blatant osx ripoffs Jan 31 18:29:51 http://en.meizu.com/photos_m6.asp this one especially Jan 31 18:29:52 buz: but we concluded that it was actually a GIMP/PS fraud, because engadget showed the Meizu M8 as a totally different item, successor to the M6 Jan 31 18:30:05 mhh that would make sense Jan 31 18:30:12 unless of course they add a gsm module to it Jan 31 18:30:30 Pity - as that's a damn huge screen in a tiny phone. Jan 31 18:30:47 fic should look at their design Jan 31 18:30:49 There is the 'where does the battery go' Jan 31 18:30:51 then make v2 accordingly Jan 31 18:30:53 issue. Jan 31 18:31:14 The problem is I'm not sure that that design is actually possible to make. Jan 31 18:31:21 depends on the thicksness Jan 31 18:31:29 theres the lg prada phone that is kinda like it Jan 31 18:31:38 and iphone itself Jan 31 18:31:54 shouldnt be that hard to put a better os and scren on the iphone Jan 31 18:32:12 Plastic polymer batteries don't actually need any space. But you can't replace them, short of changing your phone shell :P Jan 31 18:32:31 You've got 11.5mm - out of that, comes 2mm from the clamshell, 2mm for the screen, 2mm for the inside and outside casings, leaving only 4mm for battery and PCB. Jan 31 18:32:42 Err - yes they do need space. Jan 31 18:32:53 They are not structural plastic. Jan 31 18:32:54 uhm why does it need clamshell Jan 31 18:33:12 The 3-view shows - to me a cover for the screen. Jan 31 18:33:25 skip the cover Jan 31 18:33:28 no use Jan 31 18:33:37 If you don't have a cover on that size and thinness of screen, it's going to shatter often. Jan 31 18:33:48 and if its there, they surely dont count it towards the thickness Jan 31 18:34:00 besides as long as its <20mm its fine by me Jan 31 18:34:18 heck my p900 is over 25mm and thats still good enough Jan 31 18:34:39 any fic guys around? Jan 31 18:35:02 Personally, I'd prefer a phone a little thicker that I can sit on accidentally. Jan 31 18:35:04 the mail server at openmoko.org doesn't like me :/ Jan 31 18:35:29 DrZeus: No, they've all been given offers they can't refuse by Microsoft :P Jan 31 18:36:02 I guess that would have to be in the godfather sense then :) Jan 31 18:36:22 No no, in the american dream sense :P Jan 31 18:36:47 Which is the godfather in lamb's clothing ... :P Jan 31 18:37:45 Morgret: I've been using gentoo since 1.2 btw ;) Jan 31 18:37:59 CM: gratz :P Jan 31 18:38:02 Measuring on the picture indicates that it's 11.2m including the cover. Jan 31 18:38:09 11.2mm :) Jan 31 18:38:33 11 meters is a pretty big screen Jan 31 18:39:01 No, that's thickness, with a 50*80mm or so screen Jan 31 18:39:22 * SpeedEvil ponders an 11m deep phone with a 3" display on the end. Jan 31 18:39:50 SpeedEvil: to place a call, you dive in the deep end. Jan 31 18:39:53 You'd have to use long zoom lenses, and really careful angles on the afverts. Jan 31 18:41:19 SpeedEvil: oh I getcha. To place a call, you line up the sniperscope for a headshot. Yeah, that's a different paradigm. :P Jan 31 18:45:16 *g* Jan 31 18:45:47 For my current phone, I need to use a monocular to place a call. Jan 31 18:46:27 Maybe the OM lounge needs a Surrelist's Annex :P Jan 31 18:47:24 * SpeedEvil ponders the fact that mini-sd cards are around the right size to fit inside a 50 cal round. Jan 31 18:47:52 I assume we'll have a devs channel too, where non-tech chat is disallowed. Jan 31 18:48:13 aw, this channel isn't quite so bad as the mailing list Jan 31 18:48:41 SpeedEvil: but would they survive the shock, our would you get powder out the other end? Jan 31 18:50:42 I suspect properly packed, they'd work just fine. Jan 31 18:50:55 Clint: I have a solution for tech mailing lists: ML comments should have an associated svn code checkin, and unless it compiles successfully, the ML post is rejected ;-)))) Jan 31 18:50:56 I suspect you'd need to go to 20mm to get it reliable though. Jan 31 18:51:09 Morgret: no one ever enforces those things Jan 31 18:53:48 Clint: t'would be trivial to enforce ML post acceptance based on svn/cvs/etc checkin and compile success, scripted. Jan 31 18:54:23 Not many people would like it, but it would stop non-tech comments. Jan 31 18:54:44 counter Jan 31 18:54:44 a week, 3 days 04:33:41 (10.19 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.19 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.19 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 18:54:53 Morgret - The ml-server would apply and commit? Jan 31 18:54:55 Morgret: yeah, i know it WOULD be Jan 31 18:55:04 koen|gprs_ can hardly wait :) Jan 31 18:55:34 djeez Jan 31 18:55:38 java people are clueless Jan 31 18:55:55 want to go and create a project on gforge instead of doing actually something Jan 31 18:55:56 Elrond: dunno, we'd have to figure that out. But it's certainly possible to link posting to tech ability. Jan 31 18:56:25 Morgret - It would allow anyone to do commits? ;o) Jan 31 18:57:01 Elrond: moderation would roll back bad commits and that would prevent posting for a while. Jan 31 18:58:08 Morgret - hihi :) Jan 31 18:58:24 At least I would like it. Easy bug fixing for me. :) Jan 31 19:00:00 Hey, although this was a joke, I hope some Sourceforge project does something like that as an experiment. Jan 31 19:00:13 koen|gprs__: sounds a lot like organization for the sake of it Jan 31 19:00:41 pH5: "in case someone gets hit by a bus" Jan 31 19:00:53 use the &$*@&$@*( bugtracker or the $*#(@)*$()@$(# ml Jan 31 19:01:13 Sue the bus driver. It's the american way. Jan 31 19:02:16 I was tempted to reply: "since when to java nerds go outside?" Jan 31 19:03:18 :) Jan 31 19:03:24 java people have a great talent for pissing me of it seems Jan 31 19:03:35 you help them, give them hints, but somehow it doesn't get through Jan 31 19:04:28 Java people are no different to any other missionary cult. The only problem is that there are a lot of them. Jan 31 19:05:29 "One true language" is no different to "One true God" Jan 31 19:06:02 How good I don't know too many java people. Jan 31 19:06:53 Isn't basic anyway the one true language? ;o) Jan 31 19:07:50 I'm an engineer. I don't bang in screws with a hammer. Therefore there is no one true language, because they're all tools. QED. Jan 31 19:08:10 what?!?! Jan 31 19:08:17 you don't use a hammer for screws? Jan 31 19:08:34 if you don't use a hammer for screws your manager isn't clueless and micromanaging enough Jan 31 19:08:35 No, it's my failing :-( Jan 31 19:08:44 lol Jan 31 19:09:08 Isn't every tool used like a hammer? ;) Jan 31 19:09:21 Yeah, I know what you mean, being freelance I've come across a lot of loopy management Jan 31 19:09:38 * koen|gprs is working in a policestation right now Jan 31 19:09:45 "management" isn't in their dictionary Jan 31 19:09:48 Oh well, don't get me started on that. Jan 31 19:10:12 koen|gprs - Huh, how comes you work there? Jan 31 19:10:29 Elrond: http://bsst.de Jan 31 19:10:48 anyone get their hardware yet? Jan 31 19:11:03 drat, I left my charger in the car Jan 31 19:12:12 koen|gprs - Not to mention, that two pictures on that side are b0rked. ;) Jan 31 19:15:10 dougt: i think the advance hardware ships 2/11 Jan 31 19:15:23 counter Jan 31 19:15:23 a week, 3 days 04:13:02 (10.18 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 3 days (38.18 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 3 days (222.18 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Jan 31 19:15:39 (counter is a handy command for the nervous and impatient such as myself) Jan 31 19:15:54 It's no surprise. I don't know of any place where management requires professional training. And pretty much everywhere, non-management staff get bumped out of their areas of competence into management. So 99% of management being dire is guaranteed, almost everywhere. Jan 31 19:16:49 * thedaniel is a manager Jan 31 19:17:31 Each area of competence should have its own professional ladder, all the way to board level. Anything else is insane. Jan 31 19:22:38 It's no surprise though that companies are structured ridiculously with only the clueless people at the top. After all, who organizes company structure? Management! QED. Jan 31 19:23:46 (This applies only to large companies. Small ones don't succumb to managerial insanity until they grow,) Jan 31 19:24:04 i was just about to say - this is why i can only bear to work for small companies Jan 31 19:24:32 true Jan 31 19:24:42 because at a small enough size, it's about the task, and once it grows to a certain point, it becomes more about the status and power of upper mgmt as expressed through engineering / sales / whatever depts Jan 31 19:25:55 Yep Jan 31 19:26:45 Managers and marketers are the root of all evil in our society. Jan 31 19:26:53 Just my two cents. Jan 31 19:27:27 loufoque: as a manager, i can only partly agree there Jan 31 19:27:39 i think marketdroids are beings of darkness Jan 31 19:28:19 but i can say that all the engineers at my company didn't really like dealing directly with the executives / marketers before i came in to be a sort of human shit shield for them :) Jan 31 19:28:32 Well, management starts of with a key advantage: 1 brain cell, so the issue is whether they use it properly. Marketting doesn't start out with that advantage. Jan 31 19:28:40 lol Jan 31 19:32:06 Sorry, I should write a blog titled "A Cynic's Travels Through UK Industry". But I'm too jaded for it. :P Jan 31 19:34:26 small companies and people inside are about ideas and work done, with not so much resources, unlike big companies Jan 31 19:38:36 koljoman: yes Jan 31 19:39:41 I think there psychological problem comes from the lack of normal leadership structures Jan 31 19:40:06 like, the 'natural' way of things is that the best/strongest is the leader Jan 31 19:40:24 ie. in a hunter tribe, the best hunter was the leader Jan 31 19:40:40 in a tribe that was dependent on trading, the best trader was a leader Jan 31 19:40:49 and so forth Jan 31 19:40:57 in the modern societies, this is totally reversed Jan 31 19:41:08 If there's one single thing that would raise human intellectual endeavour (as opposed to pure manpower grind) it would be limiting companies to max 1000 employees. And that might be too many. Jan 31 19:41:10 the best/most skilled engineer is rarely the leader Jan 31 19:41:41 instead, you often see incompetent, clueless people above you Jan 31 19:42:01 and that leads to a frustration, bacause it's hard to appect the power coming from above Jan 31 19:42:19 if the leader is 'natural', it's normal to accept the 'orders' Jan 31 19:42:27 ("he's better than me") mentality Jan 31 19:42:59 You don't want the most skilled engineer as the leader. Jan 31 19:43:14 You want someone who listens to him, understands his field. Jan 31 19:43:16 big it companies are the proof that darwinism needs a review Jan 31 19:43:39 But the engineer is usually better engineering, not mmaaging. Jan 31 19:43:39 MDK: the problem stems from a mismatch between "strongest" (which used to mean muscle and skill with spear, and now means rank/clout) and "most competent in own area". Jan 31 19:43:51 SpeedEvil: you want somebody that can do all the stuff so that he can just what he does best. Jan 31 19:44:08 so that he can just do what he does best. I meant. Jan 31 19:44:29 There used to be only one area of competence: bringing in the food. Now there are many, but they are not represented in the command structure. Jan 31 19:44:47 in google most managers (or at lest middle-to-low managers) are engineers Jan 31 19:45:01 Yes, Google is amazingly insightful Jan 31 19:45:44 is it correct that at Goole you have do use 30 mins of your day doing something that you like the most, but that can not add value to any existing project? Jan 31 19:45:56 i am not sure where i heard that, but i read it in some blog post Jan 31 19:46:00 meus: no. Jan 31 19:46:11 cjb: thanks Jan 31 19:46:14 but you can have "20% time" on a non-Google project Jan 31 19:46:20 but you still have to justify the project somewhat. Jan 31 19:46:34 ah ok Jan 31 19:46:38 that sounds nice Jan 31 19:47:45 It doesn't really matter if it's your project or not. What matters is if it's in your area of competence. 99% of management in the world is based on managers managing outside of their area of competence. It's no surprise that you get crap. Jan 31 19:48:44 I have met some extremely good managers in my travels. God, they're rare. Jan 31 19:52:30 Morgret: how do you classify a good manager? i am just curious here. since you seem to have some insight into this Jan 31 19:53:10 Good management is an extremely delicate balance. It requires trying to guide projects in the direction that some bluesky CEO thinks fit, while doing the utmost you can for the benefit of the people in your team; without the latter, you get absolutely nowhere. Jan 31 19:54:50 A good manager will take abuse from above, and defend the team in everything and never blame them, while trying to guide them in the direction that the layers above want. It is hard hard hard hard. Jan 31 19:56:35 A manager who passes stick on down to the team is a failed manager. You have to stick your neck out and take managerial crap from above, and defend your people. You're hiring and firing them after all, if they're no good, it's your own fault, nobody else's. Jan 31 20:00:55 The synergy that comes from that is incredible -- the people you manage look up to you as on their side, defending you against crap from above and putting your neck out on the line for them. And along with the respect, they work their guts out for you. It's a partnership. Jan 31 20:01:03 Pretty rare, in my experience. Jan 31 20:02:19 Only have experience of UK, dunno if like that elsewhere. Jan 31 20:02:50 i've lucked into a good work environment with very cool managers Jan 31 20:03:12 leventhal: gratz :-) Jan 31 20:04:00 some of them I didn't even realize were managers until I looked up their titles. Just sat down with one to bugkill yesterday. Jan 31 20:04:21 (The stealth managers weren't from my team) Jan 31 20:04:45 for moment or two Jan 31 20:06:09 leventhal: that's cool. A manager who acts like one just isn't on your side. Jan 31 20:09:45 That sort of sums it up: a good manager uses confrontation upwards (if needed) and collaboration downwards. Of course, if top management is collaborative (as it seems in Google) then it's collaboration all the way down. Rare though. Jan 31 20:10:03 Morgret: thanks Jan 31 20:10:21 lol Jan 31 20:11:14 Morgret: :) Jan 31 20:11:20 Just a view from moving around in UK industry freelance. I'd like to hear experiences from other countries. Jan 31 20:18:13 is there a development chat channel? Jan 31 20:19:45 is there development yet? Jan 31 20:21:55 ;) Jan 31 20:22:15 There is a development mailing list, just figured that there would be a development channel with 209 ppl. in this channel :) Jan 31 20:23:09 right, but people in this channel don't go "OMG!!! WIFI!!!" or "OMG!!! GNU!!!" every five minutes Jan 31 20:23:17 ^ Jan 31 20:23:18 * koen|gprs thanks $deity for that Jan 31 20:23:26 just every hour... Jan 31 20:23:31 * ynezz hides Jan 31 20:26:34 OMG !WIFI Jan 31 20:26:38 * koen|gprs saves the OMG!!!s for v2 cpu Jan 31 20:29:03 core2trio? Jan 31 20:29:59 2 x fpga Jan 31 20:30:16 running opensparc Jan 31 20:30:54 I want a LCD with a sapphire face, using SAW for touches. None of this scratch crap. Jan 31 20:31:53 Well - diamond really, but that's harder to fab than artificial sapphire. Jan 31 20:32:15 good point for v2 Jan 31 20:36:07 WHAT, NO WIFI? And no PONIES!!! I want PINK PONIES!!! Jan 31 20:36:08 :P Jan 31 20:36:51 Sorry, I left out the "OMG", how incompetent of me. Jan 31 20:37:13 Supply it with a trained pink pony, to carry it round, and run a generator from the methane. Jan 31 20:37:39 Ah, that's why the USB is unpowered Jan 31 20:38:32 For the non-technical among you, it's because pink ponies can't generate more than 3.6V. Jan 31 20:53:12 lol @ ponies Jan 31 20:53:28 OMG PONIES!!! Jan 31 20:53:34 eah Jan 31 20:53:36 y Jan 31 20:53:44 oh dear, now you know I read slashdot Jan 31 20:54:32 it's all downhill from here Jan 31 20:55:20 has there been any hints about the default typing system in openmoko will be ? Jan 31 20:55:21 :P Jan 31 20:56:00 Yes. Only monkies will be allowed to type, and preferably a million of them. The goal is Skakespeare. Jan 31 20:57:21 if shakespeare would live today, he would talk C Jan 31 20:57:29 or write his plays in C Jan 31 20:58:47 i bet in office 2007 :p Jan 31 20:59:48 Oh, I dunno, he might write each play in a different language, for the widest appeal. And he'd exhume Mohammed to write a religious one in Java. Jan 31 21:00:37 Although there might be a Jihad there between Java and C++ faithful. Jan 31 21:01:03 Meanwhile Turing just looks on down from on high and shakes his head ... Jan 31 21:01:22 :) Jan 31 21:02:19 And high above Turning, Church just chuckles and winks at Lambda above him ... Jan 31 21:03:41 Basically nothing new in computing since lambda calculus. Really pathetic. The stuff about "Dark Ages of Computing" is totally correct. Jan 31 21:03:53 40 years of sod all. Jan 31 21:04:06 * xkr47 fell off Jan 31 21:06:45 We're excitedly writing new code for a new gadget in 2007 ... which differs in almost nothing significant to writing code for an IBM 370 mainframe of 30 years ago, except that the phone is more powerful. Pretty sad. Jan 31 21:07:17 I wasn't coding at an age of 0 :) Jan 31 21:07:49 So people were on the moon before your time. And they haven't been there since. Sad, huh? Jan 31 21:08:16 people have been reproducing for thousands of years Jan 31 21:08:31 And they're still doing it. Jan 31 21:08:32 yet they keep doing it today.. sad, huh?-) Jan 31 21:08:37 xkr47: and they still manage to breed people like GWB Jan 31 21:08:47 :D Jan 31 21:08:49 Bacteria reproduce. It doesn't take much intellect. Jan 31 21:08:56 I don't think Bacteria have as much fun. Jan 31 21:08:59 But well, who knows. Jan 31 21:09:11 How would you know? :P Jan 31 21:10:31 Well we can only draw one conclusion. Going to the moon isn't as fun as reproducing. Jan 31 21:10:32 how about comparing programming to painting paintings? Jan 31 21:11:22 b_lindeijer, programming vs reproducing is otoh a different story .. ;-) Jan 31 21:11:53 b_lindeijer: and from that, once must conclude that fun is not a companion to progress for most people. Jan 31 21:13:16 Haha, very true. Jan 31 21:14:21 It boils down to Maslow's Hierarchy of Needs: depending where you are on it, different things matter to you. If you're a primitive, only instinctive things will matter. Jan 31 21:14:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Maslow%27s_hierarchy_of_needs Jan 31 21:14:48 And sex is an instinctive urge, therefore primitive. Jan 31 21:15:08 I guess programming could be too Jan 31 21:22:30 Programming might be an instictive urge, yes, as it's sort of an extension of planning, and primates have been planning since long before a monkey climbed a stump to reach a banana. Jan 31 21:22:49 But *design* probably belongs in Maslow's top layer. Jan 31 21:26:39 About to watch V for Vendetta ... but put off already by the incompetent DVD menu design :-( Jan 31 21:28:10 :P Jan 31 21:28:13 Bah, no DTS either. Serves me right for buying a cheap one. Jan 31 21:28:17 mplayer dvd://2 Jan 31 21:29:13 Computers suck for whatching DVDs, unless they're hooked up to a large screen in a dark lounge with all the lizard amenities. Jan 31 21:30:01 And with the comp in a different room so you can't hear the fans and disks. Jan 31 21:34:54 OK, I know this sounds totally daft ... but is there such a thing as a USB *firewire* interface? I know it makes no sense, but it does in just one small area: interoperability btn USB-only and Firewire-only devices. Jan 31 21:35:24 Ie. a thingie that plugs into your USB port, and presents a Firewire port out. Jan 31 21:36:50 IIRC not generic. Jan 31 21:37:16 But you think there might be a special purpose one around? Jan 31 21:37:22 I think I've seen hard disk ones Jan 31 21:37:28 Aha Jan 31 21:37:56 I mean adaptors to use firewire hard disks. Jan 31 21:38:10 Yep, that kind of thing. Jan 31 21:38:42 I diddn't bookmark them. As I diddn't need. Jan 31 21:38:45 It doesn't make sense on speed or latency grounds. But for interop, can be invaluable. Jan 31 21:40:19 I guess I'll go brave those red-on-red V for Vendetta menus ... Jan 31 22:01:53 Hellooooo up there... Jan 31 22:02:31 Who's the Bluetooth expert? Jan 31 22:13:50 Marcel :-P Jan 31 22:22:01 Marcel is the Bluetooth expert? Jan 31 23:37:57 XorA|gone: ping Jan 31 23:56:48 Hiya mickeyl :-) Jan 31 23:57:06 Just finished watching V for Vendetta -- what an excellent film :-) Jan 31 23:58:21 Sad that with each passing year, the UK police state gets stronger stronger and eventually Parliament will have to go ... I hope it goes up in such style :-) Jan 31 23:58:55 Police surveilance through cellphones will happen long before that, so maybe OpenMoko comes just in time ;-) Feb 01 00:00:05 heh Feb 01 00:00:13 sounds like i need to watch that film Feb 01 00:00:44 I've have the original comic, which I read before having watched the film Feb 01 00:00:51 it's also quite good Feb 01 00:00:58 (some small differences in plot here and there) Feb 01 00:04:08 Oh, I've heard that if one likes the comic then the film won't appeal, unless you can treat it as a different work. Feb 01 00:08:42 both appeal to me, so I don't know what those people were talking about Feb 01 00:10:22 Oh, mickeyl, we were trying to read between the lines on your blog entry about the GPS. You make it plain that the agpsd daemon is closed, and you explain why, but as the Neo's accessible hardware was always said to be open, presumably that means we'll have access to the raw GPS device. The question is, is FIC going to document the interface, or do we have to reverse engineer it without help? Feb 01 00:10:44 Wondering, will there be developer devices be sent to software developers? Feb 01 00:10:57 i don't think we will be allowed to publish it :/ Feb 01 00:11:01 I'm quite interested to port some of my stuff to it .. Feb 01 00:11:06 i'm afraid this is GL IP Feb 01 00:11:23 pvanhoof: the phase 0 developers have already been selected. Phase 1 devs will have to buy it. Feb 01 00:11:43 okay I see Feb 01 00:11:51 counter Feb 01 00:11:52 a week, 2 days 23:16:32 (9.97 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.97 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.97 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 00:12:17 well, it's a typical GPE on it right? Feb 01 00:12:29 there is that super secret binary module gathering the actual GPS data out of the datastream containing algorithms which they base their business on... even FIC won't get the source to that lib Feb 01 00:13:10 It's probably the modelling which is the sekrit bit. Feb 01 00:13:14 mickeyl: but is there a way to get NMEA strings from the agpsd? Feb 01 00:13:19 The basic GPS isn't really hard. Feb 01 00:13:20 yes Feb 01 00:13:23 you get NEMA Feb 01 00:13:25 NMEA Feb 01 00:13:40 You can't get psuedoranges or range-rate information AIUI. Feb 01 00:13:49 mickeyl: they can keep their secret algorithms ... we only want access to the data. Feb 01 00:13:50 hmm Feb 01 00:13:58 You'd almost never want that. Feb 01 00:14:06 well, many FOSS programs that use GPS will function with NMEA just fine Feb 01 00:14:31 s/many/most/ Feb 01 00:14:32 thedaniel meant: well, most FOSS programs that use GPS will function with NMEA just fine Feb 01 00:14:34 You can't copyright a data stream, nor even the format of one ... it's not a copyrightable work. So we just need the stream spec. Feb 01 00:14:50 This is speculation: Feb 01 00:14:58 The GPS datastream is not at all secret. Feb 01 00:15:09 The output to NEMA isn't secret either. Feb 01 00:15:37 The interesting bit, which may be wanted to keep secret is how you go from bits off the antenna, to NEMA Feb 01 00:16:15 For example, there are all sorts of things that might be done, feedforward of the estimated position into a correlator, to attempt to keep a marginal satellite locked Feb 01 00:16:33 * cworth nitpicks to point out NMEA Feb 01 00:16:57 Aye, GPS isn't secret. But Infineon/Global Locate will undoubtedly be over-extend their secrecy. Feb 01 00:17:12 be trying to* Feb 01 00:17:32 Feedback of the dopplers of other satellites through a model, to give the decoder jerk information to again aid in locking. Feb 01 00:17:52 Smart use of interrupted ephemirides data. Feb 01 00:18:09 There's plenty of university project code for GPS decoding and analysis. Feb 01 00:18:22 And also, it's quite possible that the velocity limiting code may be in software. Feb 01 00:18:51 The export regulations for a GPS which can read out at >1000Kt/30000ft get nasty Feb 01 00:19:01 Yes, there is university project code. Feb 01 00:19:38 If your buisness is GPS, and you've taken man-decades of work in getting 10cm better than the other guys position, you want to keep that advantage. Feb 01 00:19:39 If we can decode the data stream presented to us, we'll probably eventually have a better open-source daemon than the proprietary ones. I bet the Neo will be used in university projects. Feb 01 00:20:19 It may not be legal to import/export/own the neo if it can do that though. Feb 01 00:20:54 As the regulations aimed at stopping consumer GPSs being used on missiles are very much still on the books. Feb 01 00:21:43 The same chip is available in millions of gadgets ... any hardware hacker can break into the i2c lines or whatever the interface is. So banning it would be pretty silly. Feb 01 00:22:16 Silly or not. If it can do that, it's illegal in many places (including the US) Feb 01 00:22:28 They could of course lock up all radio amateurs and other hardware hobbiests ;-) Feb 01 00:23:03 It's actually decidedly non-trivial to make a GPS, though it's a hell of a lot more trivial than it was - now there are chips that do half the work for you. Feb 01 00:23:09 g'night Feb 01 00:23:14 Neglecting the chips that do all of the work for you Feb 01 00:23:17 * SpeedEvil waves. Feb 01 00:23:19 NN M ;-) Feb 01 00:23:56 But those that do all the work won't output fixes when you go too fast/high Feb 01 00:26:19 Here's one way of developing a GPS decoder: feed the sat fixes readings into a neural net, and run it in training mode with a commercial GPS as the authority. Come back in a few weeks, and you have a working decoder ... although you won't know how it does it. ;-))) Feb 01 00:27:15 Morgret: with the slight proviso that if you go anywhere you didn't go whilst training, it will probably produce incorrect results. Feb 01 00:27:26 :P Feb 01 00:27:38 Robot101: that unfortunately could well be so, yes :P Feb 01 00:27:59 even commercial GPSes had things like if you go above 85 degrees latitude, they get your position wrong by a few hundred miles :P Feb 01 00:28:08 Oops Feb 01 00:28:20 people in north Norway weren't too happy, but the manufacturers never tested up around the Arctic Circle Feb 01 00:28:21 Maybe they did it with NNs then :P Feb 01 00:28:23 :) Feb 01 00:29:29 GPS decoding isn't fundamentally hard - you get output of differential velocities between satellites, and their orbits. From that you generate a position. Annoying and tedious rather than hard. Feb 01 00:30:17 Does the hardware take care of doppler etc? Feb 01 00:31:21 No. Feb 01 00:31:31 You do not get ranges to the satellites. Feb 01 00:31:38 You get relative doppler shifts. Feb 01 00:32:06 You can only take care of the doppler by computing a position/vector at which the doppler is 0 Feb 01 00:32:31 Of course, in some chipsets, there is a micro in there, and you get 'cooked' info out. Feb 01 00:33:09 Hmmm, I wonder how much we can infer from the glossies on the Hammerhead. Feb 01 00:33:22 hang on, I haven't looked. Feb 01 00:34:19 I have a URL on another box, one sec Feb 01 00:36:49 Ok - there is no position determining going on in the hammerhead Feb 01 00:37:04 It just spits out the raw doppler information it gets from the satellites. Feb 01 00:37:12 And that's then decoded in the host CPU. Feb 01 00:37:26 Assuming there is no CPU in the module, that'll be by the neo. Feb 01 00:38:40 http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/SEMI_HAMMER_Frameset.htm Feb 01 00:38:59 speedEvil: Where do you look to find that? Feb 01 00:39:00 So the 'consumer GPS' limits have to be applied in the neo. Which is at least one reason it's a binary module. Feb 01 00:39:20 http://www.globallocate.com/SEMICONDUCTORS/HAMMERHEAD_PB.pdf Feb 01 00:39:50 The block diagram shows just 'correlator engine and postprocessor' Feb 01 00:39:54 Ah yeah, that's the glossie on the page I linked Feb 01 00:40:25 The correlator is the bit that 'lines up' the signal from the satellite with what the satellite should be transmitting. Feb 01 00:40:38 So getting range-rate information per satellite Feb 01 00:41:02 Postprocessor will be stuff like decoding the data that the GPS satellite sends minimally. Feb 01 00:41:13 Each satellite sends the current time, and its orbit. Feb 01 00:41:29 Orbital parameters - exactly where it is in the sky. Feb 01 00:42:27 If you already know the orbits - which is what all the 'load it over the internet' stuff is, then you don't have to wait for the orbits to download. Also, you can lock onto the satellite faster as you know approximately what doppler they should all have. Feb 01 00:46:15 Well in respect of what that means for the data coming out to us over the interface, does that look promising to you, or bad? Feb 01 00:46:54 Umm... Feb 01 00:47:19 The chip looks too simple for any decent encryption or anything to ba happening. Feb 01 00:47:32 So I suppose it can only be at best obfuscation. Feb 01 00:48:07 And the satellite orbits are all known, and which are over the horizon, so that should give big clues if you can observe both sides of the datastream Feb 01 00:48:24 Oh, I bet there is none ... after all, it's been designed for normal consumer devices, which are entirely closed. They prolly didn't figure on the OM. Feb 01 00:48:39 More that it's not their problem. Feb 01 00:49:09 It's illegal in many places to sell GPS hardware which can work over the limits. It's not illegal to sell GPS chips that can be assembled into stuff that can. Feb 01 00:49:46 I'll have to look into the legalities - I last looked at this around a decade ago seriously. Feb 01 00:51:47 The legal restriction are entirely bollocks anyway. Any moderately sane terrorist would buy an unrestricted military device on the black market, or if they're on a budget, they'd plant a $50 foxhunt transmitter on the target and just home in on it. Feb 01 00:52:14 Being entirely bollocks does not mean that they will not come and lock you up. Feb 01 00:52:23 Indeed. :P Feb 01 00:52:40 And more importantly, take away your neo. Feb 01 00:52:47 Arghhhhh!!!!!!! Feb 01 00:56:30 Presumably the military has a way of telling the sats to shift their coords by a few miles, to be invoked in the event of a launch detection. I wonder if they've ever tested it momentarily. Feb 01 00:57:19 Not shift their coords, shift their *reported* coords, hehe Feb 01 00:57:57 I was biking in Moab on 9/11--my Garmin lost the signal entirely... Feb 01 00:58:05 Google Selective Availability Feb 01 00:58:13 Wow! Feb 01 00:58:23 GPS was degraded significantly before 93? Feb 01 00:58:29 yeah Feb 01 00:58:36 With large errors - tens of meters. Feb 01 00:58:59 They can basically cause any satellite to lie in many ways. Feb 01 00:59:24 What year was 9/11? Feb 01 00:59:43 Real comforting when the pilot is on an instrument approach using GPS Feb 01 00:59:53 Morgret: 01. Feb 01 00:59:54 2001 Feb 01 00:59:58 ta Feb 01 01:11:19 How often does a Bluetooth emitter announce its presence? Feb 01 01:24:18 Oh, that depends on the profile in use. There's a General Access Profile with a short 10ms of Inquiry Scan every 2 seconds, while remaining discoverable for 30s. But dunno beyond that. Feb 01 01:25:14 In general you try to keep the duty cycle that low, in order to reduce power consumption. Feb 01 01:25:32 That's why inquiry takes such a long time. Feb 01 01:26:11 I guess you could transmit with a higher duty cycle if you had the power, and discover would be quicker. Just guessing though. Feb 01 01:26:29 if a bt device is hidden, does it actually transmit anything unless an outside source that knows the address initiates? Feb 01 01:26:52 You really want to turn off the reciever too, if you can. Feb 01 01:27:10 Which is the other reason it takes a while. Feb 01 01:27:12 mjr: guessing again, but I believe it transmits nothing at all when not discoverable, unless it's paired with a device already. Feb 01 01:27:27 yeah Feb 01 01:27:33 As you have to transmit much more often to be sure that you hit the device in the window when it's listening Feb 01 01:28:03 ahh, so they don't listen all the time either Feb 01 01:28:09 so that's what it was about... Feb 01 01:34:13 Does bt advertise a unique ID when it announces? Feb 01 01:35:32 i.e., if in a room full of bt devices, will Neo be able to determine which is which? Feb 01 01:40:18 BT devices have MAC addresses Feb 01 01:45:01 So the Neo could detect the presence of a specific bt device... Feb 01 01:45:19 without establishing a connection... Feb 01 01:57:08 DukeOfURL: yep, inquiry and connection phases are entirely separate in Bluetooth. Feb 01 01:57:20 cool Feb 01 01:57:48 Inquiry and Inquiry Scan is like a client and server pair, for discovery only. Feb 01 01:58:24 For connection you have Paging and Page Scannning, again a client + server type pair. Feb 01 02:00:36 Is there any way for a phone to recognize the GSM RF emmissions of another phone? Feb 01 02:00:50 to determine presence? Feb 01 02:00:53 I quite like Bluetooth. Didn't go into it too deeply, but had some fun interfacing to my GPS and my laser scanner. Bluez had some quirks when I did it a year or so ago, but no doubt it's better now. Feb 01 02:01:17 I don't know anything about GSM, sorry. Feb 01 02:03:37 Need the ability to determine the presence of another phone within ~100m Feb 01 02:05:30 Well cellphone are pretty powerful transmitters even on lowest power, so that's not hard. Radio amateurs commonly pick up 100mW across the other side of the globe, although not in this band, hehe. Feb 01 02:06:18 Will we have access to GSM or is it all on-chip? Feb 01 02:06:54 We'll have access only to the AT-type serial interface. That will be only a tiny subset of GSM chip functionality --- the safe subset, no doubt. Feb 01 02:08:03 It'll probably be exactly the same subset you have available on a PDA when you connect it to your mobile as a modem. Feb 01 02:09:31 When I place my Motorola next to my VoIP phone, I can hear the cell transmissions on the VoIP set. When idle, the cell announces every hour or so. Feb 01 02:09:53 So there's not that much RF anyway. Feb 01 02:18:36 wow, popular channel Feb 01 02:19:18 can somebody clarify for me, are the GSM and GPS the two and only two proprietary stacks on the Neo1973? Feb 01 02:19:55 I wonder about the openness of the SD stack Feb 01 02:20:03 But have no info Feb 01 02:20:36 SpeedEvil: there are Linux drivers for SD no? if so, I'd assume they'd just use them.. Feb 01 02:20:40 And the GSM isn't really a stack, it's a limited interface to external hardware. We get all of the access anything would. Feb 01 02:21:23 SpeedEvil: meaning any app on the device can have permissions to initiate calls, etc? Feb 01 02:21:30 yes. Feb 01 02:22:20 SpeedEvil: that's awesome, more open than I was even thinking.. Feb 01 02:22:21 The modem basically looks (AIUI) like a modem talked to via AT commands, with a mixer to route the sound around into it. Feb 01 02:22:35 You can't do 'interesting' GSM hacking. Feb 01 02:22:53 The GPS basically gives position/... info, as it is at the moment. Feb 01 02:23:09 SpeedEvil: do you work at FIC? Feb 01 02:23:24 No. Lurked here a while, read what's out there. Feb 01 02:23:37 SpeedEvil: cool, well thanks for helping clear some things up for me Feb 01 02:23:41 :) Feb 01 02:23:49 It is a nice phone potentially. Feb 01 02:24:06 More info when the first devices hit the devs Feb 01 02:24:08 counter Feb 01 02:24:08 a week, 2 days 21:04:14 (9.88 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.88 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.88 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 02:24:26 nice :) Feb 01 02:26:37 it's hard to believe how busy the lists are and how many people are in this channel :) Feb 01 02:26:45 speaks to the potential of this product/idea Feb 01 02:29:54 i thought it was supposed to be released sooner than later Feb 01 02:30:45 fatty: what do you mean? Feb 01 02:31:16 9.88 days not specific enough for you? :) Feb 01 02:31:52 from what i had seen before today i thought it was going to be available january/february but this says 7 months Feb 01 02:32:21 "this" is referencing Sean's official timeline Feb 01 02:33:12 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html Feb 01 02:39:59 counter Feb 01 02:39:59 a week, 2 days 20:48:24 (9.87 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week, 2 days (37.87 days) for *any* developers (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week, 2 days (221.87 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 01 02:55:43 fatty: 7 months is for Mass market, not for direct sale phones to developers Feb 01 02:55:44 "this" said: Feb 01 02:55:44 2007-03-11 Phase 1: Official Developer Launch We will sell the Neo1973 direct from openmoko.com for US$350 plus shipping. Sales and orders will be worldwide. We are specifically targeting open source community developers. Feb 01 02:56:06 does Cingular have a "friends and family" deal where you can call another Cingular cell phone without charge? Feb 01 02:56:19 yes Feb 01 02:56:28 its called mobile to mobile Feb 01 02:56:37 its in their plan specs Feb 01 02:57:47 And would there be a way for a phone to pass data over the GSM connection? One phone calls another and passes its coordinates? Feb 01 02:58:09 Or would we need a modem? Feb 01 02:58:49 DuckeOfURL: i have no idea, i would imagine it could **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 01 02:59:57 2007