**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 05 02:59:57 2007 Feb 05 03:11:13 hello everyone Feb 05 04:03:33 counter Feb 05 04:03:34 a week 01:24:21 (7.059 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a week (35.059 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a week (219.059 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 04:40:53 openmoko doesn't have wifi? Feb 05 04:42:13 that sucks: no free drivers for power-efficient chips. Feb 05 04:42:26 no wifi is really a burden Feb 05 04:42:57 jtoy: it is a phone, not a laptop ;) Feb 05 04:43:13 gps is much easier to use with wifi in it Feb 05 05:18:24 any way to add a third party wifi to the phone? Feb 05 05:22:59 yes, (battery) powered USB hub Feb 05 05:27:55 counter Feb 05 05:27:55 6 days 23:59:59 (7.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (35.000 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (219.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 05:28:15 missed for exactly week ;-) Feb 05 05:28:47 counter Feb 05 05:28:47 6 days 23:59:07 (6.999 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.999 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.999 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 05:29:11 week feels almost 'soon' for source Feb 05 05:29:22 almost Feb 05 07:26:12 * koen links http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/gpe-list/2007-February/000220.html Feb 05 07:26:40 koen, feels like gtk gets a lot of substantial patches these days Feb 05 07:57:40 it will be interesting if the G(PE)2 stuff gets into OE in the next six days ... Feb 05 07:58:15 [09:00] koen: Do you already have OE recipes for gpephone? Feb 05 07:58:15 [09:04] florian: koen: yes, i just need to change the download locations and then i can push them Feb 05 07:58:16 [09:06] florian: I'm just uploading an OE-built VMware image with it. Feb 05 07:58:41 that was 30 minutes ago :) Feb 05 07:59:53 * rwhitby doesn't see the link for the vmware image Feb 05 08:00:07 probably because it isn;t there yet Feb 05 08:00:38 I haven't discovered the screenshots yet Feb 05 08:00:45 oh, the email was sent prematurely :-) Feb 05 08:04:50 wow, the gpephone svn repo has a "marketing" subdir. Feb 05 08:07:42 hey all! Feb 05 08:17:18 koen: The first pic here looks like a screenshot: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/ Feb 05 08:23:11 mornin' Feb 05 08:23:27 hey Stephmw Feb 05 08:33:56 that looks nifty Feb 05 08:34:03 much better than the bloody orange ;) Feb 05 08:36:11 the 4:3 one is from an universal or something? Feb 05 08:43:25 would it be possible to port Qt to the neo1973? Feb 05 08:43:37 qt3 or qt4? Feb 05 08:44:04 either Feb 05 08:44:04 both can be used - both are in OpenEmbedded already Feb 05 08:44:13 ah, cool Feb 05 08:44:29 port? Feb 05 08:44:31 port!?!?!? Feb 05 08:44:34 port!?!?!?!? Feb 05 08:44:36 OMG PORT!!!! Feb 05 08:44:55 OMG ROM!!! Feb 05 08:45:13 so the neo1973 will be available around the middle of march? Feb 05 08:45:13 kOEn: shut up you romcloner! Feb 05 08:45:14 :D Feb 05 08:45:27 march? Feb 05 08:45:34 counter Feb 05 08:45:34 6 days 20:42:19 (6.863 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.863 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.863 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 08:45:36 fastest cl0n3r in the w3st Feb 05 08:45:40 I want it on my desk in 10 days Feb 05 08:45:58 hehe, i'm not a selected developer i think.. Feb 05 08:46:25 will it be as cool as it seems? :) Feb 05 08:46:34 * koen has already started preparing for the neo: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000234.html Feb 05 08:47:02 what's oabi/eabi? Feb 05 08:47:06 koen: remind me tomorrow to run EABI on Neo Feb 05 08:48:03 actually EABI is running on my smdk2440 to it will work fine on Neo Feb 05 08:48:08 * koen makes a mental note to remind XorA Feb 05 08:49:43 * koen heads to the uni Feb 05 11:01:59 hi anyone Feb 05 11:02:14 is there a good article about openmoko that i could put in my blog? Feb 05 11:12:35 the topic lists the best resources for information currently Feb 05 11:13:37 Belutz: wait for Feb 11 Feb 05 11:13:46 Belutz: when people can talk Feb 05 11:18:02 XorA, so i can't post about openmoko right now? Feb 05 11:18:12 is it true that you can run "apt-get install" in open moko? :D Feb 05 11:18:16 you can Feb 05 11:18:18 newbie alert .. how can I buy one of these phones ? Im in UK Feb 05 11:18:41 PeteSkeet: you wait until march Feb 05 11:18:43 PeteSkeet: You can't. Wait for March 11th. Feb 05 11:18:47 thnx Feb 05 11:19:05 Belutz: you can post all you like, the developers are under NDA Feb 05 11:19:36 :) Feb 05 11:20:28 can you install apache in that device? Feb 05 11:21:02 yes Feb 05 11:21:10 Belutz: if its in OE, then getting it on Neo will be ten minute job Feb 05 11:21:31 kewl Feb 05 11:22:01 will there be a 3G version of this device? Feb 05 11:29:40 rwhitby: MACHINE_FEATURES are meant to reflect features present "out of the box" Feb 05 11:30:06 rwhitby: so it would be cleaner to add bluez stuff to mokoslug-image instead of appending to MACHINE_FEATURES Feb 05 11:32:38 counter Feb 05 11:32:38 6 days 17:55:15 (6.747 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.747 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.747 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 11:33:39 Belutz: see topic roadmap link: about 3G: not yet known Feb 05 11:34:16 aloril, thanks Feb 05 11:40:28 koen: nod Feb 05 12:14:30 * koen wonders who to bribe for stage 4: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/cms/my-plans-for-openmoko-and-the-neo Feb 05 12:17:44 koen: soundslike a good plan Feb 05 12:20:04 may i use the image of FIC Neo1973 in openmoko.com in my blog? Feb 05 12:23:36 Sean authorized, via e-mail, the use of the neo images on the site under GFDL: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/002080.html Feb 05 12:23:45 however, I don't know if said e-mail is legally binding Feb 05 12:25:05 at least the wikipedia people seem to want that in writing, though if they get it under GFDL here: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:1112FIC326x550.jpg at some point, the writing is probably done Feb 05 12:26:34 in a personal capacity, I'd just take Sean's mailing list word for it, but this is not legal advice :] Feb 05 12:28:58 At worst, it could be - as sean is a major player in neo, his problem, if he's said something that is false. Copyright infringement is a civil, not a criminal matter, in these sorts of cases. No court anywhere would convict where you have any form of communication from the organisation saying 'yes' without further comment saying no. Feb 05 12:30:05 it would be very damaging to them to go against that word Feb 05 12:30:35 "Hello, our internal organization is a mess, please buy from another company" Feb 05 12:30:38 Yeah - and practically, they have little reason to. Feb 05 12:30:49 all true :) Feb 05 12:34:00 can someone review my writing http://www.belutz.net/2007/02/05/openmoko/ thanks Feb 05 12:34:52 Belutz: "any way they ee fit." Feb 05 12:35:27 pH5, thanks :) Feb 05 12:35:44 http://www.belutz.net/2007/02/05/openmoko/ thanks Feb 05 12:35:46 doh Feb 05 12:36:01 * SpeedEvil not awake Feb 05 12:36:15 * Belutz give SpeedEvil a cup of coffee Feb 05 12:36:35 SpeedEvil: I happen to know people who talk in their sleep. Never saw anyone typing, though. Feb 05 12:37:01 Personally. 'movement, on a mission' ee fit -> see fit Feb 05 12:37:48 ', and quality' 'and quality' Feb 05 12:38:26 thanks SpeedEvil Feb 05 12:38:42 The openmoko... sentance is ratehr long. Feb 05 12:38:58 SpeedEvil, any suggestions? Feb 05 12:39:08 Is the misspelling of 'kommunikations' intentional? Feb 05 12:39:24 SpeedEvil, i took it from the press release Feb 05 12:39:33 and yes it is intentional Feb 05 12:40:02 considering it's a gtk phone, maybe it should've been OpenMogo ;P Feb 05 12:40:33 hahahahaha Feb 05 12:40:59 Or if RMS is involved - Gnu-OpenMoko. Feb 05 12:40:59 can't it use qt too? Feb 05 12:41:06 http://toys4boys.pl/show.php?id=803&pos=1 - must have for neo1973 users ;) Feb 05 12:41:20 ecraven, yeah sure, but you'll probably have to install it yourself Feb 05 12:41:28 ie. not in default packaging Feb 05 12:41:32 I would say "with a mission" rather than "on a mission" Feb 05 12:41:54 hrw: what exactly is that? Feb 05 12:41:59 coffee-warmer? Feb 05 12:42:09 ah.. nice Feb 05 12:42:17 SpeedEvil, ok Feb 05 12:42:23 coffee warmer with powered usb hub Feb 05 12:42:38 i guess i still have to improve my english Feb 05 12:43:52 Belutz: s/apt-get install/ipkg install/ Feb 05 12:44:20 koen, ok :) Feb 05 12:45:35 It's much better than my ? Feb 05 12:46:58 I got contact from one of Polish companies specialized in GPS, telemetrics about neo1973 ;D Feb 05 12:49:23 Wacky. Confused ebay seller marked my 28mm SDS+ bit as paid, and sent it without me actually going through the troublesome process of paying. Feb 05 12:49:24 oops Feb 05 12:51:43 hrw: in what way? Feb 05 12:52:35 SpeedEvil: that's a nice seller... what else does he want to give away... err, I mean sell? Feb 05 12:53:01 I assume it's a mistake - was meaning to send to a friend. Feb 05 12:53:06 the line. Feb 05 12:53:16 not woken up properly yet. Feb 05 12:53:18 SpeedEvil: now they want to know what do I think about it Feb 05 12:53:25 ah. Feb 05 12:53:45 Do you mean position logging hardware? Feb 05 12:53:48 they make? Feb 05 12:54:02 did not yet checked what they do Feb 05 12:54:26 is there an emulator for the neo? Feb 05 12:55:03 no Feb 05 12:55:18 and for most purposes, you don't need one really Feb 05 12:55:51 SpeedEvil: pos logging hardware to track cars position Feb 05 12:55:52 with Xoo you should be able to run the interface pretty much as is; qemu can do some ARM emulation if you really need though apparently it's a bit limited Feb 05 12:55:58 Ah. Feb 05 12:58:22 mjr: i could play around until i actually get one :) Feb 05 13:00:14 In most cases - other than CPU speed, emulation isn't really very helpful. Simply because a large part of the difficulty is that matching hardware is moderately unavaialble. Feb 05 13:00:26 300DPI screens with touchscreens isn't especially common. Feb 05 13:00:32 aren't Feb 05 13:01:19 yah Feb 05 13:01:59 but anyway, ecraven, you should be able to compile the code release due soon and then run it in Xoo to get some play-feel of it :] Feb 05 13:02:12 i'll have a look at xoo :) Feb 05 13:02:31 counter Feb 05 13:02:32 6 days 16:25:22 (6.684 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.684 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.684 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 13:07:37 I've just figured out what Sun's sales division is there for: it's to prevent people buying Sun kit. What a mess. Come back Dell, all is forgiven. Feb 05 13:09:24 Morgreet: That's a bit strong. Asking Dell back so soon? Feb 05 13:09:48 Morgreet: Surely your datacentre would perform better with turd sandwiches linked by gb eth? Feb 05 13:10:15 dells gets you replacements pretty fast Feb 05 13:10:32 that's a good thing, since the average dell breaks monthly Feb 05 13:10:33 If you've got their gold support plan yeah Feb 05 13:10:59 I've got the best of both worlds.. sun servers and dell desktops Feb 05 13:11:14 I get the pleasure of using a dell laptop as a desktop Feb 05 13:11:31 I _hate_ how it hibernates randomly .. had it repaired twice and still does it Feb 05 13:11:37 GPE on /. http://linux.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/05/130208 Feb 05 13:12:37 Stephmw: Dell's industrial stuff is actually pretty good, and their sales system is dead slick. The main issue with Dell in UK is that they sell at X2 markup, despite the factory being in Ireland -- their profits here are just outrageous. Feb 05 13:12:51 I wonder how much trolls will use "open" and "greenphone" in the same sentence at that /. article Feb 05 13:13:14 Same here.. Feb 05 13:16:01 What is the greenphone? Feb 05 13:16:11 * SpeedEvil has never seen a definition. Feb 05 13:16:31 trolltech phone Feb 05 13:16:37 ah. Feb 05 13:16:42 developer platform for qtopia phone edition Feb 05 13:16:45 2.4 kernel Feb 05 13:16:54 many closed parts Feb 05 13:17:13 koen: well, we shouldn't snigger at Greenphone lack of full openness until Sean confirms that the GPS port is open and the serial stream documented. Becuase if it isn't, then we will have to use the closed agpsd and that makes Neo/OM no more open than Greenphone. So, we'll have to wait and see. Feb 05 13:17:19 Looks like a phone from 1997 Feb 05 13:17:53 Morgreet: agpsd closed vs SXE + DRM + kernel modules Feb 05 13:18:19 I don't especially care about open access to all parts of the hardware, as long as we have access to the output of all the hardware can do. Which the neo does. Feb 05 13:18:29 Morgreet: and don't get me started about the dual licensing Feb 05 13:18:33 Even in its current form. Feb 05 13:19:39 koen: it's more a matter of principle. Except for the fanboys which I'm sure we'll have, let's not point fingers at the Greenphone just yet. I agree it's more closed than we, but we're not saintly. Feb 05 13:20:01 are there self-powered wifi cards? Feb 05 13:20:10 Morgreet: right Feb 05 13:21:42 koen: How would you rate Nokia 770/800+Maemo on openness btw, compared to Greenphone? Feb 05 13:21:56 compared to the greenphone? Feb 05 13:22:06 slightly better Feb 05 13:22:12 yeah, that's my impression too Feb 05 13:22:25 Their wifi is closed, presumably, yes? Feb 05 13:22:38 open driver + binary blob Feb 05 13:22:42 k Feb 05 13:22:57 But is the binary blod just firmware, or runs in host? Feb 05 13:23:01 blob* Feb 05 13:23:05 host Feb 05 13:23:08 oops Feb 05 13:23:11 ignore that Feb 05 13:23:35 https://garage.maemo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/?root=cx3110x Feb 05 13:24:53 Morgreet: http://walfield.org/blog/2007/01/29/maemo.html Feb 05 13:25:34 Well I'll give Sun one more chance when the quote arrives ... just fax it to a reseller. If it takes me more than one phone call after that, I'll buy from Dell instead. /sigh Feb 05 13:26:31 One gets the impression that they just don't want customers' money. Feb 05 13:26:40 Morgreet: I dislike idea of DRM, I would prefer platform without it becoming common instead of DRM becoming standard Feb 05 13:27:54 aloril: my take on DRM is simple: it's to make *MY* equipment do what someone else wants. I have no place for that, unless they want to pay me for use of *MY* equipment as theirs. Feb 05 13:28:34 Morgreet: yeah, IMHO binary agpsd is minor compared default install of binary DRM support Feb 05 13:29:22 in-deed Feb 05 13:30:00 It does worry me a bit FIC needs to ask GL to compile the agpsd binary Feb 05 13:30:02 nothing should break once closed binary agpsd is replaced with open binary agpsd Feb 05 13:30:06 aloril: a little bad vs a big bad? It's still bad. But I don't really care that agpsd is closed; what I *would* care about immensely is if the h/w GPS port is closed. Feb 05 13:30:17 (also, from the practical point of view, the binary agpsd will probably not prevent one from upgrades as a kernel driver might; not that I'm not going to swap it in with an open replacement the second someone comes up it one ;) Feb 05 13:30:26 Morgreet: the gps is on a uart Feb 05 13:30:39 with Feb 05 13:30:59 Morgreet: umm.. yes, but what I mean is that you can replace binary agpsd and nothing should break, but getting rid of DRM is by design nono ;-) Feb 05 13:31:26 koen: that's why I said "documented" earlier. The whole idea of an open platform is one where you don't have to reverse engineer things that you have access to. Feb 05 13:31:47 aloril: yep, agree totally on DRM Feb 05 13:32:50 http://www.broadcom.com/press/release.php?id=957622 Feb 05 13:33:13 koen: I had the impression that you had already some early version of hardware (under NDA)? Feb 05 13:33:23 aloril: nope Feb 05 13:33:31 aloril: just common sense :) Feb 05 13:33:44 hey stefan_schmidt Feb 05 13:33:50 koen: Your common sense is under NDA ? Feb 05 13:33:57 TRIsoft: yes Feb 05 13:34:14 koen: Makes sense :D Feb 05 13:35:00 What's the input method going to be like on the Neo? Feb 05 13:36:13 wm_eddie: whatever you want ;-) (don't know about default one and I guess this will evolve in time during coming months) Feb 05 13:36:15 touhscreen, 2 buttons Feb 05 13:37:27 I was thinking of making an input method (for Japanese) based on the way Japanese cell phones do it. Feb 05 13:38:43 wm_eddie: contact Laibsch on #oe for it Feb 05 13:38:58 Has there been a text input thread on the development ML I can look up? Feb 05 13:39:37 koen: that's a very damning article about Nokia+Maemo. Yes, it does seem to be closed at its heart, with only a FOSS veneer. Feb 05 13:40:24 wm_eddie: there is also option of bluetooth keyboard (or battery powered USB hub + USB keyboard) Feb 05 13:40:44 Morgreet: which maemo article? Feb 05 13:40:58 aloril: I'll just keep a USB keyboard in my pocket. That'll work. Feb 05 13:41:16 [14:07] Morgreet: http://walfield.org/blog/2007/01/29/maemo.html Feb 05 13:41:17 * notsmack found it Feb 05 13:41:18 That one Feb 05 13:41:25 All the girls will be going "Is that a keyboard in your pocket or are you just happy to see me." Feb 05 13:41:54 * mjr will probably buy a small bt keyboard to go along with the non-tiny text input needs Feb 05 13:42:47 Well, if you design a good cell phone dial pad style input method it's not too tiny and pretty fast. Feb 05 13:43:34 Although if we want to blow the iPhone out of the water then we'll need speech recognition. Feb 05 13:43:55 hmm the openembedded.org site is very very slow. Feb 05 13:44:42 http://www.openmoko.com/pixels/main_menu_press.png Feb 05 13:44:58 I'd like a scrollwheel like this that can be pulled more into the middle of the lower half of the screen Feb 05 13:45:27 so one could scroll continuously without having to lift a finger Feb 05 13:45:34 * mjr notes that the screenshots make the phone seem huge, considering this display has a lesser DPI ;) Feb 05 13:45:46 the phone is rather big, actually. Feb 05 13:45:59 not huge though :) Feb 05 13:46:24 yeah I know it's not the smallest one there is, but not _that_ big :] Feb 05 13:46:32 Hopefully a little better sized than my Treo 600. Feb 05 13:46:57 mjr: move away from your PC until its size is 7.1cm (2.8") Feb 05 13:47:54 and currently I use an n-gage which is not very small either and way less useful Feb 05 13:48:02 I wish it were bigger. I want a useful device, not a fashion statement. Feb 05 13:48:03 That's bigger than the treo I think. Feb 05 13:48:03 counter Feb 05 13:48:04 6 days 15:39:48 (6.653 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.653 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.653 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 13:51:00 mjr: might help if you make paper with 7.1cm whole in middle and keep it at distance from your eyes you would keep Neo1973 Feb 05 13:51:29 and then move until you see screenshot (make me drool to see actual scree, quite impressive dpi) Feb 05 13:51:33 The odd thing about the Neo's design is all the wasted real estate on the front. With so much unused plastic area, why not a lot more buttons for example? Feb 05 13:51:35 s/scree/screen/ Feb 05 13:51:35 aloril meant: and then move until you see screennshot (make me drool to see actual scree, quite impressive dpi) Feb 05 13:52:40 More buttons isn't exactly better. Feb 05 13:53:17 Yes it's *exactly* better. Feb 05 13:57:31 * wm_eddie wonder where the buttons will be. Feb 05 14:00:06 * aloril has heard both sides Feb 05 14:00:41 * mjr admits to being in the "some buttons would be nice" camp Feb 05 14:01:55 * aloril would like multitouch instead Feb 05 14:02:01 Yet another phone item on Slashdot, this one about Nokia and Symbian. Looks like there's trouble there. Feb 05 14:03:14 * mjr happens to know that Sean will be talking to unnamed Finnish companies at the end of this month ;] Feb 05 14:04:01 (no, I really honestly don't know which, but don't you just love to put two and two together and start up completely baseless rumors) Feb 05 14:05:57 anyway, we're trying to set up Sean also with some local interested community devels, hope that works out... Feb 05 14:06:11 That article about Symbian is worth reading. Things are a right mess there, it seems. Feb 05 14:06:12 (we = me and COSS, the center for open source software in Finland) Feb 05 14:07:13 http://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/6856C375-FE4E-4BC8-B753-B48AF3BD8B30.htmlhttp://www.roughlydrafted.com/RD/RDM.Tech.Q1.07/6856C375-FE4E-4BC8-B753-B48AF3BD8B30.html Feb 05 14:07:22 Arggghh!!! Sorry about URL :-( Feb 05 14:07:53 Buttons that don't involve covering the screen are a definite plus. Feb 05 14:09:09 Needless to say, that was a double paste ... URL ends at .html, half way along Feb 05 14:10:17 mjr: funny comment about the Finnish in that article ;-) Feb 05 14:11:12 yea, those motherfuckers Feb 05 14:14:40 Hehe Feb 05 14:16:10 It's slashdotted already.. Feb 05 14:16:18 Actually a pretty good article, if the bit about Cocoa is true. I've never worked with Macs. Partly because I hate the hype and fanboyism. Feb 05 14:17:22 Fanboys are the 3rd to go against the wall, after politicians and lawyers. :P Feb 05 14:18:08 * SpeedEvil inserts microsoft before lawyers. Feb 05 14:18:35 SpeedEvil: once you've got rid of lawyer's i don;t think it'd be an issue ;) Feb 05 14:19:02 Monopolies and monopolistic behaviour would if anything be worse without lawyers. Feb 05 14:19:50 though i'd put the rockefeller's 1st Feb 05 14:20:09 then the morgans, and so on.. Feb 05 14:20:39 Oh, I think they're a symbiotic pair. Lawyers require politicians to turn opinion into coercion (ie. courts and enforcement), and politicians require lawyers to run the clockwork. Feb 05 14:21:01 You can't really scrap the system without some means of enforcement. Feb 05 14:21:29 Where existing governments have been overthrown, without a power structure to take over, it's not gone well historically. Feb 05 14:21:53 Heya wm_eddie! Feb 05 14:21:55 Can't actually do anything, as it's a closed system. There won't be change until we can get off this planet, on an individual basis. That won't happen for a while. Feb 05 14:22:13 meh,individual governments are preety irrelevant in the grand scheme of things Feb 05 14:22:43 Indeed, it's the global consensus on ways to control citezens. Feb 05 14:22:49 robtaylor: yep. It's the fact that they all march in concert that's the problem. Feb 05 14:23:14 Morgreet: well,most governments just dont have an option Feb 05 14:23:19 Apart from shining lights which have no effective government. (just lots of people running around shooting at each other) Feb 05 14:23:32 Morgreet: look at any 3rd world contry thats tried to do any thing different Feb 05 14:24:13 hi paulproteus, long time no see. Feb 05 14:25:15 No point talking about it. It won't change by democratic process because that's been subverted almost everywhere by all electable parties actually supporting the same thing. Feb 05 14:25:30 Glad to see this channel is so on-topic. (-: Feb 05 14:25:55 wm_eddie, Yeah, I forgot to reattach to my OFTC IRC proxy for, like, three months.... Feb 05 14:26:04 paulproteus: we exhausted the topic a week or two ago. No new info untill 11th Feb :P Feb 05 14:26:16 counter Feb 05 14:26:16 6 days 15:01:36 (6.626 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.626 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.626 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 14:26:22 Morgreet, I'm only poking fun, I realize that. (-: Feb 05 14:26:26 Hehe Feb 05 14:26:32 I assume we've also talked the new QPE phone environment to death? Feb 05 14:27:06 paulproteus: qpe of gpe? Feb 05 14:27:10 Morgreet: yeah, oh, agreed on 'democratic process' ;) in the end of the day, the only solution would be appling by force the theory of power being a mandata from the people Feb 05 14:27:12 Nope. Feel free to open the topic :P Feb 05 14:27:28 koen, http://gpephone.linuxtogo.org/ Feb 05 14:27:28 Morgreet: ad that has a whole load of downsides Feb 05 14:27:41 paulproteus: piman and JZig spend most of their time talking about games now anyway (because they both now work for the CoH company) Feb 05 14:27:48 wm_eddie, CoH? Feb 05 14:27:53 (Does that mean piman runs non-free software!?) Feb 05 14:27:56 paulproteus: I hope openmoko becomes LiPS compliant as well Feb 05 14:28:02 City of Heroes. Feb 05 14:28:04 BTW, the link I pasted is Slashdotted. Feb 05 14:28:14 koen: ugh, LiPS is foul Feb 05 14:28:21 LiPS? Feb 05 14:28:27 robtaylor: aye, which is why it won't happen. So really, it's now a matter of waiting it out ... until we can leave the crap behind like the US's funding fathers did. Hopefully it won't descend into global civil war before then, but it might. Feb 05 14:28:28 paulproteus: I've known of gpephone for some time now :) Feb 05 14:28:36 paulproteus: piman has always said that if he's being paid he's ok making non-free software. Feb 05 14:28:37 * koen <- root on linuxtogo.org :) Feb 05 14:28:43 SpeedEvil: a mobile linus standardisation body Feb 05 14:28:47 Ah. Feb 05 14:28:57 Because he really needs standardised. Feb 05 14:28:57 robtaylor: foul, but buzzword compliant Feb 05 14:28:58 heh, linux Feb 05 14:29:23 piman is getting a bit annoying about talking about how much better the XBox 360 is than the PS3 though. Feb 05 14:29:26 koen: yeah, having a policy of standards not code its just obviously the right way to go Feb 05 14:29:33 Feb 05 14:29:37 * koen bitbake farsight Feb 05 14:29:43 koen: ooh :) Feb 05 14:29:56 Oh boy, let's have an Xbox vs PS3 vs Neo now ..... ;-)))) Feb 05 14:30:02 Morgreet++ Feb 05 14:30:05 wm_eddie, What are you up to? Feb 05 14:30:16 Did you finish college? I don't remember what your timeline for that was. Feb 05 14:30:24 Morgreet: ah, but teh founding farthers didn't leave teh crap behind at all Feb 05 14:30:26 I'm looking to replace my Treo 600. Feb 05 14:30:32 robtaylor: pulseaudio is in a better shape now, so I guess I should fix up farsight now :) Feb 05 14:30:43 Morgreet: the revolution was driven by commercial needs Feb 05 14:30:54 Has there been any clarification as to where the USB socket is? Feb 05 14:30:55 koen: that really rock :) Feb 05 14:30:57 paulproteus: Not yet, but I'm going to Japan for 6 months in May so I'll have some free time to work on what I need for the Neo. Feb 05 14:31:32 * koen waves to prpplague Feb 05 14:31:32 wm_eddie, For a vacation? Feb 05 14:31:42 paulproteus: I'm going to be working for Panasonic. Feb 05 14:31:45 robtaylor: indeed. But it worked for a while. It'll always be so. The diaspora has to be continuous, otherwise your own community turns into something just as bad as what you left behind. Feb 05 14:31:48 wm_eddie, Oh, cool! Feb 05 14:31:53 Yeah :) Feb 05 14:32:06 koen: greetings earthling Feb 05 14:32:13 koen: whats cookin? Feb 05 14:32:13 koen: i'm going to have to get a build box going so ican actaully build OE regualary Feb 05 14:32:15 wm_eddie, In May I'll graduate from jhu.edu and work for a small San Francisco-based nonprofit, Creative Commons. Feb 05 14:32:26 Sounds very nice to be able to have time to work on what you need for OpenMoko. Feb 05 14:32:41 Basicly I need the Neo to be able to read-write Japanese e-mail. Feb 05 14:32:45 prpplague: made some apples in puff pastry with some sugar/cinnamon/rum filling :) Feb 05 14:32:46 Hah! (-: Feb 05 14:32:46 and a Dictionary would be nice too. Feb 05 14:33:00 Creative Commons? awesome. Feb 05 14:33:11 Yeah, I'm really happy about that. (-: Feb 05 14:33:13 prpplague: how's the move coming along? Feb 05 14:33:37 koen: pastry sounds lovely Feb 05 14:33:54 Time to get ready for calc. Feb 05 14:34:01 koen: well the actual move is going well, hit a snag on the actual immigration visa part for my wife Feb 05 14:34:04 I had better get ready, too. Feb 05 14:34:16 See you around, wm_eddie! Feb 05 14:34:35 see ya Feb 05 14:35:01 Morgreet: did you really mean 'diaspora' there? Feb 05 14:35:35 i'd have expected diaspora to always be continuous ;) Feb 05 14:37:05 robtaylor: yep. Community dispersal into unpopulated space. Feb 05 14:37:15 koen: connection problems Feb 05 14:37:19 koen: new US law, Adam Walsh Act, requires any US Citizen who is bringing a foreign citizen to the US to have a background check specifically to check for any convictions involving the abuse of a minor Feb 05 14:37:51 koen: problem is that the US Customs and Immigration Service wasn't prepared to implement the new law when it took effect, so all there are no procedures for getting it done Feb 05 14:38:00 djeez Feb 05 14:38:15 And some countries don't keep those sorts of records centrally. Feb 05 14:38:37 SpeedEvil: hehe, its not for the foreign citizen, its for the US citizen Feb 05 14:38:43 robtaylor: what's the preferred place to get libjingle nowadays? Feb 05 14:39:06 * SpeedEvil ponders the rationale. Feb 05 14:39:10 koen: tapoioca-voip on sf Feb 05 14:39:18 i think Feb 05 14:39:19 For when they are bringing in non-minors? Feb 05 14:39:42 Libjingle is in Gentoo portage Feb 05 14:39:45 SpeedEvil: the rationale is to prevent child molestors from going to the philipins(or tons of other places) and getting 14 year old brides Feb 05 14:39:51 Ah. Feb 05 14:40:11 Morgreet: it is available from multiple places, but I want to know which one is blessed by the Rob gods :) Feb 05 14:40:15 SpeedEvil: problem is that it add just one more layer of insanity to the process Feb 05 14:40:26 Personally, if they are of legal age when married, where they are. but... Feb 05 14:41:08 SpeedEvil: yea, well, these days it ain't like the movies where you get married and then you get a greencard Feb 05 14:41:24 * prpplague has been married for 3 years and still waiting on a greencard for his wife Feb 05 14:41:32 Yeah. Feb 05 14:41:36 search for "mickeyl, whts the main difference between GPE and openmoko?" http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/openmoko/openmoko.20070202.txt Feb 05 14:42:20 I'm of the opinion that immigration for pretty young disease free females should be drastically eased. :) Feb 05 14:42:32 Anyway, back on topic... Feb 05 14:43:46 Was there any answer on the USB connector position? Feb 05 14:43:52 oops, just asked, mn. Feb 05 14:43:55 nm Feb 05 14:44:29 robtaylor: I got it from http://sourceforge.net/project/showfiles.php?group_id=146406 Feb 05 14:44:36 robtaylor: adding it to OE now Feb 05 14:45:00 koen: i think that's right. I'm no longer the libjingle maintainer though :( Feb 05 14:45:13 aloril: that chat log makes it sound like OM is reinventing wheels for look'n'feel reasons :-( Feb 05 14:46:21 Morgreet: more integrated also Feb 05 14:46:38 aloril: which means what, outside of marketting? Feb 05 14:47:02 that you don't have to enter the same info in 6 places Feb 05 14:47:10 and can access stuff from different apps Feb 05 14:47:21 Morgreet: well.. it does sound a bit like there are (will be) now 3 alternatives: OpenMoko, GPE, QTopia Feb 05 14:47:28 koen: all you need is a single database for that kind of integration. Feb 05 14:47:30 e.g. both the dialer and email app use the contacts app Feb 05 14:47:51 Morgreet: sure, but does GPE do that? (I don't know it ..) Feb 05 14:48:16 koen: btw, check out http://live.gnome.org/High5/PeopleBrowser Feb 05 14:48:32 Well Linux/Unix as a whole doesn't do that, because the whole idea is that what the user wants is more important than any marketting design. Feb 05 14:48:50 robtaylor: sort of what maemo does Feb 05 14:49:12 koen: yeah, pretty much Feb 05 14:49:57 koen:should be a better ui though. the maemo one still sucks ;) Feb 05 14:51:11 robtaylor: NOTE: package farsight-0.1.5-r0: task do_build: completed Feb 05 14:51:41 koen: rocking :) Feb 05 14:51:59 In any event, focussing on look'n'feel now (rather than for Sept) is like worrying about the colour of your square wheel. Style won't matter until the mass market of Phase 2. Feb 05 14:52:00 koen: are you gonna build gossip as well? Feb 05 14:52:29 robtaylor: I can try Feb 05 14:52:58 aloril: i'm really not impressed that G(PE)^2 seems oto have ignored eds, where everyone else is using it Feb 05 14:53:32 robtaylor: it's using tinymail which uses eds Feb 05 14:53:48 robtaylor: but yeah, I have been pushing for gpe to move to eds-dbus for some time now Feb 05 14:53:53 koen: i thought tinymail just sued camel Feb 05 14:54:22 * aloril waits to see actual source for OpenMoko.. a bit hard to talk about it without source ;-) Feb 05 14:54:36 *used. sueing camels isn't going to help anyone... Feb 05 14:54:44 No EDS in portage. Does it have another name? Feb 05 14:54:54 Morgreet: evolution-data-server Feb 05 14:55:00 tnx Feb 05 14:55:07 NOTE: package gossip-0.22-r0: task do_configure: started Feb 05 14:55:20 btw.. does Neo1973 have enough CPU to use encryption? (to guard against stolen phones for cases where thief has too much clue and takes battery out until reflashes it) Feb 05 14:55:29 koen: though i have to admit that EDS-dbus still needs a lot of cleaning up. and there are some difficult problems Feb 05 14:55:38 koen: the libjingle in tapioca svn leaks threads like a biatch, if you're just using farsight there's a cut-down and less buggy libjingle in http://projects.collabora.co.uk/darcs/farsight/libjingle/ Feb 05 14:55:46 koen: like it breaks libebook's abi Feb 05 14:56:08 robtaylor: not to mention dbus 1.x being broken on arm when launched from inside a session Feb 05 14:56:14 Robot101: ah, cool. Feb 05 14:56:45 * Robot101 hasn't had time to merge them Feb 05 14:56:49 Robot101: are the taopioca guys gonna drop theirs now? Feb 05 14:56:55 Robot101: oh, right Feb 05 14:57:28 koen: it is? what way, is there a bug for that? Feb 05 14:57:36 the farsight patches are mergable up into tapioca, but we're doomed ultimately Feb 05 14:57:46 google sneaked a libjingle 0.4 tarball onto sf.net Feb 05 14:57:51 oh, joyful Feb 05 14:58:04 it doesn't compile though, and it's basically unmergable with the 0.3 that everyone's using now Feb 05 14:58:04 completely different? Feb 05 14:58:11 robtaylor: http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=1567 Feb 05 14:58:15 not completely, but vigorously fucked Feb 05 14:58:25 woo.gogo google Feb 05 14:58:26 like broken API, ABI, namespaces and violated encapsulation Feb 05 14:58:36 * robtaylor weaps like a child Feb 05 14:58:44 I'm transplanting the useful bit into 0.3 :D Feb 05 14:58:55 the super top-secret relay support Feb 05 14:59:19 koen: oh, yeah i vagely remember that Feb 05 14:59:28 koen: how come it works on maemo? Feb 05 14:59:38 robtaylor: I added more backtraces and verbose spew Feb 05 14:59:50 robtaylor: they start the session bus in init, near enough :P Feb 05 14:59:51 robtaylor: maemo probably launches it differently Feb 05 14:59:55 Robot101: ah, yeah, soooo secret and secure ;) Feb 05 15:00:09 robtaylor: and/or patch it to osso hell Feb 05 15:00:13 Robot101: ah, right, what could possibly go wrong Feb 05 15:00:35 koen: Kimmo's actually not terrible at submitting patches back upstream Feb 05 15:00:58 he raped the debian packaging though Feb 05 15:01:07 yeah, most of the osso dbus patches are upstream backports Feb 05 15:01:26 robtaylor: I suspect dbus doesn't like that we exec gpe-dm, which spawns the xsession Feb 05 15:01:35 aloris: yes, it has enough CPU to use encryption - AES or something. It will basically slow it down depending on data access rate. The CPU should manage 1 megabyte/second. Feb 05 15:01:58 So, it will probably not work for encrypted video. Feb 05 15:02:08 Or if it does, it's a severe constraint. Feb 05 15:02:31 koen: added some more tracing in the child? i guess its dieing straight away Feb 05 15:02:52 oh, oh, or never getting launched. PATH problem? Feb 05 15:03:01 * koen has no idea Feb 05 15:03:14 I showed you my patch that fixes segfaults, right? Feb 05 15:03:26 koen: is it in dbus bugzilla? Feb 05 15:03:42 http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/dbus/dbus/fix-segfault.patch is Feb 05 15:04:06 koen: upstream is actually active, plzusebugzillakthxbye Feb 05 15:04:11 but giving my experiences with fdo bugzilla my time is better spent carrying water to the see Feb 05 15:04:18 sea* Feb 05 15:04:26 koen: what's the problem? Feb 05 15:04:32 it's /dev/null Feb 05 15:04:39 not for dbus or dbus-glib Feb 05 15:04:45 ah Feb 05 15:04:47 * koen tries Feb 05 15:04:53 i know havoc reads over the dbus busgs Feb 05 15:05:01 and i read over the dbus-glib bugs Feb 05 15:05:15 koen: oh, i remember that bug Feb 05 15:05:25 koen: i still think you need to fix it properly ;) Feb 05 15:05:34 *I* need to fix it? Feb 05 15:05:53 I couldn't code my way out of a wet paper bag Feb 05 15:06:05 koen: well neither havoc, j5 nor i have access to the hardware it occurs on Feb 05 15:07:12 koen: well, its worth sicking it in bugzilla with a description of the problem, havoc might have an inspired guess Feb 05 15:07:12 ? Feb 05 15:07:37 robtaylor: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/show_bug.cgi?id=9882 Feb 05 15:07:44 is it fixed yet? Feb 05 15:07:46 and now? Feb 05 15:07:46 and now? Feb 05 15:08:17 koen: :P Feb 05 15:08:27 :p Feb 05 15:08:39 hmmm Feb 05 15:08:43 gossip needs half of gnome Feb 05 15:12:50 koen: ooh, look, someone responded to the bug. aren't those dbus maints fast? :) Feb 05 15:17:49 robtaylor: eval `DBUS_DEBUG_OUTPUT=1 /usr/bin/dbus-launch --auto-syntax --exit-with-session` ? Feb 05 15:18:04 koen: and DBUS_VERBOSE Feb 05 15:19:22 koen: (the babysitter process redirects stdout and stderr to /dev/null normally. with DBUS_DEBUG_OUTPUT=1, it doesnt redirect stderr) Feb 05 15:22:23 robtaylor: do you want it pasted inline or attached? Feb 05 15:24:09 robtaylor: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=8597&action=edit Feb 05 15:25:08 koen: 3143: Failed to open directory /usr/local/share/dbus-1/services: Failed to read directory "/usr/local/share/dbus-1/services": No such file or directory Feb 05 15:25:11 slightly suspect Feb 05 15:25:27 duh, I have no /usr/local Feb 05 15:26:44 root@hx4700:/# ls /usr/share/dbus-1/services/ Feb 05 15:26:44 gconf.service Feb 05 15:27:34 koen: yeah, looks like you're not passingthe right stuff to configure.... Feb 05 15:27:48 it find the gconf one Feb 05 15:28:07 if dbus crashed on not finding /usr/local I'm going to swear Feb 05 15:28:25 i don't actually think its that Feb 05 15:28:52 data point, it works if I run it from a terminal Feb 05 15:29:05 if only fails when run from inside that Xsession Feb 05 15:30:34 robtaylor: heylo Feb 05 15:30:45 hey gw280 Feb 05 15:31:00 robtaylor: how's life? Feb 05 15:32:06 robtaylor: same machine, from a terminal: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=8598&action=edit Feb 05 15:32:08 gw280: not too bad, no work on at the moment, so hacking on a people browser for gnome Feb 05 15:32:32 people browser? Feb 05 15:33:01 robtaylor: my project to create a telepathy backend for my phone is still pending :) Feb 05 15:33:09 koen: that seems to have been run as root Feb 05 15:33:09 | peekaboo-applet.c:(.text+0x340): undefined reference to `panel_applet_set_background_widget' Feb 05 15:33:19 koen: 3258: No cache for UID 0 Feb 05 15:34:00 gw280: heh, well i'd guess when ksen finished building the stack in OE, there'd be q bit more interest in it ;) Feb 05 15:34:42 :P Feb 05 15:35:26 koen: very strange, all that seems different is that the waitpid fails Feb 05 15:39:44 robtaylor: going to fosdem? Feb 05 15:40:16 gw280: aye :) Feb 05 15:40:32 robtaylor: woot Feb 05 15:40:34 robtaylor: doing it as a regular user also works Feb 05 15:40:40 robtaylor: I'm still on hold for that... bloody university :P Feb 05 15:43:08 robtaylor: weird bug, eh? Feb 05 15:43:58 koen: its all very odd Feb 05 15:44:37 i mean, "EOF in dbus-launch reading PID from bus daemon" must be the cause Feb 05 15:45:35 but the daemon is obviously running Feb 05 15:45:53 yep Feb 05 15:45:56 its noticable that the fd's used are different, which is slightly suspect Feb 05 15:46:08 maybe it needs another magic printf :) Feb 05 15:46:19 i really hope not Feb 05 15:49:00 koen: can you add a "%s\n",strerror (errno) to line 552? Feb 05 15:49:10 of tools/dbus-launch.c Feb 05 15:49:16 sure Feb 05 15:49:24 ( Feb 05 15:49:24 /* shouldn't happen */ Feb 05 15:49:25 fprintf (stderr, "Failed waitpid() waiting for bus daemon's parent\n"); Feb 05 15:49:28 ) Feb 05 15:50:44 fprintf (stderr, "Failed waitpid() waiting for bus daemon's parent %s\n",strerror (errno)); ? Feb 05 15:52:23 koen: aye Feb 05 15:55:17 robtaylor: 3472: parent exiting Feb 05 15:55:18 Failed waitpid() waiting for bus daemon's parent No child processes Feb 05 15:55:18 Failed to waitpid() for babysitter intermediate process: No child processes Feb 05 15:55:58 crap Feb 05 15:57:37 koen: is this with glibc, ooi? Feb 05 16:00:36 koen: its just weeeird Feb 05 16:04:14 koen: completely off-topic, are you staying at hotel astrid for FOSDEM? Feb 05 16:04:25 robtaylor: yes Feb 05 16:04:40 most OE people are there Feb 05 16:04:42 koen: ok, cool, i'll try get some rooms there then :) Feb 05 16:07:03 robtaylor: need any other printfs? Feb 05 16:07:28 gdb isn't being terribly helpfull with fork() stuff Feb 05 16:07:35 koen: well, cna you just confirm its glibc? Feb 05 16:07:40 glibc 2.5 Feb 05 16:07:58 gcc 4.1.1 Feb 05 16:08:04 binutils 2.17.something Feb 05 16:08:31 its just so odd, as waitpid is obviouslytwaiting, but then returning ECHILD Feb 05 16:08:46 i have no idea why it'd do that Feb 05 16:09:53 maybe just print out child_pid in bothj waidpids, just to sanity check Feb 05 16:10:28 do the whatwhat where? Feb 05 16:12:50 koen: line 552, print out child_pid as well Feb 05 16:13:12 and same line 967 Feb 05 16:13:56 (though i can't see have line 967 could possibly go wrong ;)) Feb 05 16:15:06 Failed waitpid() waiting for bus daemon's parent. child_pid: 3583 errno:No child processes Feb 05 16:15:29 koen: need the whole log to see what pids are what Feb 05 16:15:49 (attach to bug) Feb 05 16:18:23 robtaylor: https://bugs.freedesktop.org/attachment.cgi?id=8599&action=edit Feb 05 16:20:04 robtaylor: are there any unsigned chars in that code? Feb 05 16:22:31 counter Feb 05 16:22:31 6 days 13:05:20 (6.545 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.545 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.545 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 16:22:53 robtaylor: rebooting the router, brb Feb 05 16:33:35 re Feb 05 16:35:13 ~lart debian Feb 05 16:35:13 * apt puts on a hockey mask and jumps out at debian Feb 05 16:35:21 * Clint blinks. Feb 05 16:35:24 it seems testing doesn't like nfsroot anymore Feb 05 16:35:41 file a bug Feb 05 16:36:02 dhclient stomps down eth0, which is not funny when that is being used for nfsroot Feb 05 16:42:25 it.. stomps? Feb 05 16:43:37 koen: POSIX.1-2001 specifies that if the disposition of SIGCHLD is set to SIG_IGN or the SA_NOCLDWAIT flag is set for SIGCHLD (see sigaction(2)), then children that terminate do not become zombies and a call to wait() or waitpid() will block until all children have terminated, and then fail with errno set to ECHILD. (The original POSIX standard left the behaviour of setting SIGCHLD to SIG_IGN unspecified.) Linux 2.6 conforms to this specification. Feb 05 16:44:26 koen: sounds like a possibility. what is execing dbus_launch? Feb 05 16:44:52 robtaylor: oh! Feb 05 16:45:11 robtaylor: I fixed a bizzare bug in Gaim which was caused by gdm fucking up the signal tables Feb 05 16:45:12 robtaylor: gpe-dm start Xsession which does eval `dbus-launch --foo --bar --baz` Feb 05 16:45:46 Robot101: interesting, what was the fix? Feb 05 16:46:10 koen: does gpe-dm touch SIGCHILD or sigaction? Feb 05 16:47:05 robtaylor: 1 sec, looking through the repositories Feb 05 16:47:14 Robot101: cool, thanks :) Feb 05 16:47:41 robtaylor: it's because it was forking for DNS lookups or sound playing or something, and was leaking children like nobodies business under GNOME only Feb 05 16:48:42 oh! so gdm sets SA_NOCLDSTOP on linux Feb 05 16:48:50 and gpe-dm isn't Feb 05 16:48:51 perhaps Feb 05 16:49:16 oh, i mean gdm wasn't or isn't setting SA_NOCLDSTOP Feb 05 16:52:51 http://gaim.svn.sourceforge.net/viewvc/gaim/trunk/gaim/src/aim.c?r1=3119&r2=3153&pathrev=4763 Feb 05 16:53:17 almost 5 years ago. Feb 05 16:54:51 robtaylor: ^^ could be a red herring, but just came to mind when you were talking about SIGCHLD Feb 05 16:55:35 Robot101: hmm, it could be related.I'll go have a look at gpe-dm Feb 05 16:57:44 robtaylor: http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/base/gpe-dm/?root=gpe Feb 05 16:58:32 or http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/base/gpe-dm/gpe-dm.c?rev=8312&root=gpe&view=auto Feb 05 16:59:06 koen: yeah,just looked though,no obvious suspects Feb 05 17:01:17 volunteers for a neo version: http://ramnet.se/~nisse/blog/?p=39 Feb 05 17:01:34 koen: ooi, does it work without --exit-with-session? Feb 05 17:02:31 oh, no that won't make a difference Feb 05 17:03:28 robtaylor: you can still test if setting sigchld to sig_dfl helps, even if you don't know why it's like that :D Feb 05 17:03:45 Robot101: yeah, i was just thinking that Feb 05 17:05:05 koen: can you try adding signal(SIGCHILD, SIG_DFL) at line 625? Feb 05 17:05:23 of dbus-launch or gpe-dm? Feb 05 17:05:28 koen: dbus-launch Feb 05 17:05:45 * koen vi Feb 05 17:06:22 umm, SIGCHLD, sorry Feb 05 17:06:35 * koen make Feb 05 17:06:43 * koen cp Feb 05 17:06:53 * koen wget Feb 05 17:06:59 lol Feb 05 17:07:59 robtaylor: you're my hero Feb 05 17:08:04 * robtaylor wtfs Feb 05 17:08:16 ~hail robtaylor Feb 05 17:08:18 * apt bows down to robtaylor and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 05 17:08:26 ~hail Robot101 Feb 05 17:08:26 * apt bows down to Robot101 and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 05 17:08:27 heh Feb 05 17:08:49 koen: i'm not sure what the right fix is though Feb 05 17:09:00 maybe adding that to gpe-dm is the right thing Feb 05 17:09:06 hmm Feb 05 17:09:06 * Robot101 bows Feb 05 17:09:07 :) Feb 05 17:09:38 funny how we're being bitten by the same problem 5 years on Feb 05 17:10:14 koen: try reverting that, and instead adding it after signal (SIGTERM, shutdown); in gpe-dm.c Feb 05 17:10:37 tbh it might be the difference between being run by a shell or not Feb 05 17:10:46 shells might clean this kinda stuff up for you Feb 05 17:10:56 * robtaylor marvels at all the gdm_sigchld_block_push/pop in gdm Feb 05 17:11:42 Robot101: hmm, but surely gpe-launch is being run from a shell Feb 05 17:11:50 otherwise it'd be pointless Feb 05 17:12:14 mickeyl : are you around ? Feb 05 17:12:16 it could be dash being minimal though Feb 05 17:16:38 robtaylor: the patch to gpe-dm doesn't seem to work Feb 05 17:17:51 koen: interesting Feb 05 17:26:56 Hi all, Sorry about the millionth time you must have heard this, but does anyone know *when* the fic neo 1973 will be out in the uk... more importantly, when the *second* version of this device (the one with bluetooth and wifi) will be out here in europe? thanks :) Feb 05 17:27:14 whyme: see topic Feb 05 17:28:28 whyme: It should become available anywhere directly. The second version should be around september (that's what one told us) Feb 05 17:28:49 I 'think' the first version also has bt ? Feb 05 17:28:58 wimpies: see topic Feb 05 17:29:24 koen : sorry . Feb 05 17:29:35 koen ? Dutch ? Feb 05 17:30:23 robtaylor: I patched dbus 1.0.2 in OE Feb 05 17:30:58 koen: i'm still wondering what's blocking sigchld Feb 05 17:33:34 koen: yea, read that now... it's long, but happy reading... apart for having to wait till sep to get wifi... :P Feb 05 17:33:58 whyme: september 2008 Feb 05 17:35:54 with any luck you might get a phase1 v2 in march 08 Feb 05 17:40:14 mhh so openembedded is sort of a meta distribution and angstrom is an actual distro? Feb 05 17:40:24 no Feb 05 17:40:27 (trying to make sense of koen's blog post) Feb 05 17:40:28 OE is a buildsystem Feb 05 17:41:02 i guess one could consider a meta distro to be that ;) Feb 05 17:41:07 "OpenEmbedded is a full-featured development environment allowing users to target a wide variety of devices. Supporting multiple build, release paths and configurations, OpenEmbedded extends the capabilities of your build and release engineers. OpenEmbedded uses compilation and configuration caching at most levels to increase developer productivity. Feb 05 17:41:07 OpenEmbedded is a tool which allows developers to create a fully usable Linux base for various embedded systems. It has been designed to be able to handle different hardware architectures, support multiple releases for those architectures, and utilize tools for speeding up the process of recreating the base after changes have been made. Currently it can run on any Linux distribution, and plans are in place to allow it to work under Windows. Feb 05 17:41:08 OpenEmbedded uses the Bitbake task executor in combination with the OpenEmbedded metadata to do all of the above, and it's using monotone as its version control system. Feb 05 17:41:11 OpenEmbedded is the successor of the great OpenZaurus project. Basically OpenEmbedded is a build system that can generate (cross-compile) Software packages for embedded targets. This may include Bootloader, Linux and Applications. It started as a dream and BrainStorming, on how this could be done, and it's already used in real life. " Feb 05 17:41:53 buz: OE is as much a distribution as dpkg-buildpackage or portage is Feb 05 17:42:27 mhh i might consider dpkg or portage trees to be meta distros in their own right Feb 05 17:42:51 it's what you build distros of Feb 05 17:43:21 as does gcc Feb 05 17:43:24 and make Feb 05 17:43:34 and scons Feb 05 17:43:36 and cmake Feb 05 17:43:37 and ... Feb 05 17:44:39 :'(... curses! I don't think I'll be able to wait that long.... Feb 05 17:44:58 mhh id consider make et al one level deeper still Feb 05 17:45:07 but maybe thats just my own hierarchy ;) Feb 05 17:49:00 anyone looked into the limo foundation much? Feb 05 18:02:38 http://www.newegg.com/Product/Product.asp?Item=N82E16820134409 Feb 05 18:02:43 dunno if they're as cheap everywhere else ;) Feb 05 18:06:31 * noidd updates the counter on his board behind him Feb 05 18:06:32 heh Feb 05 18:17:11 * buz wants beryl on neo Feb 05 18:27:39 Hi there Feb 05 18:28:12 Would you tell me what openmoko is? Feb 05 18:28:29 see topic Feb 05 18:28:47 challenge Feb 05 18:29:35 response Feb 05 18:30:02 I already read the sites content - but i cant figure out what its all about Feb 05 18:30:33 It's the software underpinnings of an open-source phone. Feb 05 18:30:53 Sounds great Feb 05 18:31:07 Thanks :D Feb 05 18:31:24 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS9462245331.html Feb 05 18:31:40 I guess he didn't click on the 'press' linl Feb 05 18:31:43 link* Feb 05 18:32:16 The partnership could also produce a Linux-based mobile phone reference design, according to Wind River. Feb 05 18:32:26 the more the merrier i guess Feb 05 18:32:33 windriver + ti = closed source crap Feb 05 18:33:17 (from experience) Feb 05 18:33:39 probably using kernel 2.0 or something equally unhackable Feb 05 18:34:23 windriver should have stuck with BSDI Feb 05 18:34:33 that one they could do closed source properly Feb 05 18:39:54 * koen builds some more armv4t packages Feb 05 18:41:53 * koen hums contently Feb 05 18:42:04 ~hail robtaylor Feb 05 18:42:05 * apt bows down to robtaylor and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 05 18:58:35 koen: I seem to be having huge problems building the final image for c7x0 when I try. Feb 05 18:58:50 get CRC errors which just wierded me out Feb 05 18:59:09 so i don't think my OE environment is fully straight yet Feb 05 19:00:30 crc errors? Feb 05 19:00:36 sounds like you have a bad HD Feb 05 19:01:47 wierd huh? Feb 05 19:01:53 HD is fine Feb 05 19:02:36 when I boot the machine back up again I'll put the OE buildlog up for you to laugh at. Feb 05 19:12:12 * philippe looks up the openmoko wiki and add flightmode Feb 05 19:12:36 would be nice to be able to type stuff, play games. listen to music and check your calendar while on the plane Feb 05 19:13:32 philippe: i think thats going to be hard to convince the flight crew that the phone portion is turned off Feb 05 19:13:56 well if you use a nice barred through connectivity icon that should be possible Feb 05 19:14:29 "Is the plane crashing? No? Then it's off" Feb 05 19:14:41 still can't use em during takeoff and landing Feb 05 19:15:05 koen: hehe, yea, i doubt that would be suffiencient in the US Feb 05 19:15:32 prpplague: it does get you an all expenses paid trip to GITMO Feb 05 19:15:41 hehe Feb 05 19:15:41 koen: probably Feb 05 19:15:56 koen: or atleast added to the "no-fly" list Feb 05 19:16:08 but can you use it on _that_ trip Feb 05 19:17:28 lovely, 2.6.20 was released over the weekend Feb 05 19:17:32 * prpplague grabs a copy Feb 05 19:19:17 of course it was, i just compiled 2.6.19 on friday! Feb 05 19:19:50 hehe Feb 05 19:20:57 now if i can just get all my patches submited and signed-off by 2.6.22 i'll be as happy as a pig in mud Feb 05 19:28:22 hello Feb 05 19:29:13 guys, what about fingerprint locking Feb 05 19:29:23 unlocking Feb 05 19:29:54 Hello everybody. Feb 05 19:31:06 does anybody know when the FIC Neo1973 will be available? Feb 05 19:31:11 counter Feb 05 19:31:11 6 days 09:56:40 (6.414 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.414 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.414 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 19:32:57 Excellent Feb 05 19:33:23 cool! thanks for your answer. Feb 05 19:33:38 Clint: actually the topic is a clever turing test Feb 05 19:34:00 irc is a funny thing Feb 05 19:34:06 Clint: I suspect that people who aren't wise enough to read the topic can't handle a webstore either Feb 05 19:34:42 i think you'd be surprised Feb 05 19:35:21 ignorance never seizes to amaze me Feb 05 19:35:29 I'm surprised how many people can't handle using a web store. Feb 05 19:35:48 i'm surprised by how many vendors can't handle running one properly Feb 05 19:37:14 http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS6848613546.html also has a hammerhead Feb 05 19:37:14 That's also true. My experiences have been generally positive thus far. Feb 05 19:38:25 * philippe thinks trhat chinese UMPC looks a lot like the Nokia tablets (also interface wise) Feb 05 19:39:00 koen: it's a reverse Turing test. Computers actually read things, whereas humans (new gen at least) have an attention span limiter that chops off after the 5th word ... Feb 05 19:40:43 koen: interesting device, would be nice if they had an OEM version for integration into products Feb 05 19:40:48 One thing I haven't seen is info on distribution etc. I'm guessing that info is waiting for the mass market release. Feb 05 19:41:10 "One Platform, No Limits" ... sheesh, pure marketting bull by Trolltech. Feb 05 19:42:16 7-inch LCD!!!!! Feb 05 19:42:23 OK, I want one of those. Feb 05 19:42:36 I have customers (devel type customers) who would prefer to purchase off a local store. Feb 05 19:43:13 hads: FIC is talking with at least one distributor Feb 05 19:43:42 koen: distribution was always the problem with FIC's aquapads Feb 05 19:43:58 koen: more people would have purchased them, but just couldn't get your hands on them Feb 05 19:44:27 koen: Cool. Do you/anyone know if there's going to be those commercial type announcements on the announce list? Feb 05 19:45:37 5V battery on that gadget, so any USB socket can be powered. Feb 05 19:46:09 hads: no idea Feb 05 19:46:32 No worries. Cheers for the info anyway Feb 05 19:47:11 Morgreet: you don't have to have 5v battery to power a usb host socket Feb 05 19:47:25 charge pump! Feb 05 19:47:27 Just a converter. Feb 05 19:47:31 Not a charge pump. Feb 05 19:47:36 exactly Feb 05 19:47:40 Charge pumps are horribly inefficient. Feb 05 19:48:00 And 5V (nominal) batteries don't really exist. Feb 05 19:48:01 the latest line of stuff is pretty darn good Feb 05 19:48:20 You may not need a 5V battery in theory, but in practice you do --- since the 3.6V battery on the Neo is the reason why we aren't getting powered USB. Feb 05 19:48:24 Well, you could hook 5 standard cells inseries if you were insane. Feb 05 19:48:40 You neeed a battery, and a converter to 5V. Feb 05 19:48:44 our latest handheld is using 3.6v lipoly and we get 5v on the host port with no problems Feb 05 19:48:46 You do not need a 5V battery. Feb 05 19:49:12 up to 500mA for the port, but in practice you probably don't want to exceed 120mA Feb 05 19:49:28 Well tell FIC that, not me. :P The fact is, power was ommitted from Neo and that is bad for a whole lot of reasons. Feb 05 19:49:50 And the only main justification given was that the battery was natively 3.6V. Feb 05 19:49:54 Morgreet: no reason you can't add a wedge Feb 05 19:50:45 pssst: the bt dongle is on internal usb Feb 05 19:51:22 koen: probably running at 3.3v anyway Feb 05 19:52:08 atleast 50% of usb devices these days actually run at 3.3v (or less) anyway Feb 05 19:52:39 "The H9 comes with a generous 4000mAh, 5-volt rechargeable lithium battery." what kind of weirdo li battery is that anyway Feb 05 19:53:34 buz: sounds fishy to me Feb 05 19:54:39 li-ion batteries go bang at 5v. Feb 05 19:54:50 li potential is the usual 3.6V Feb 05 19:55:05 yeah. Feb 05 19:55:05 which is the highest potential there is IIRC Feb 05 19:55:05 and the reason we use li in the first place Feb 05 19:56:04 I am so impatient Feb 05 19:56:17 I wonder what class of postal mail they're going to send the devices out under Feb 05 19:56:19 2 day air Feb 05 19:56:24 or land :-P Feb 05 19:56:38 ugh, land would take 6 weeks to get from .tw to .us Feb 05 19:56:48 fedex does asia EU in justa bout 48hours Feb 05 19:56:58 and thats expensive Feb 05 19:57:03 any faster than that, you're talking very expensive Feb 05 19:57:30 expensive as in "sure, we'll send a guy with your package" expensive Feb 05 19:58:58 Actually - LiF batteries can get 5.8V. Feb 05 19:59:07 * SpeedEvil runs away screaming. Feb 05 19:59:14 F as in flourine? Feb 05 19:59:25 yeah i dont think i want that in my pocket Feb 05 20:00:16 man, kernel.org must be getting hammered Feb 05 20:00:25 halogens on the whole are a pretty evil bunch Feb 05 20:03:34 whats funny to me is the pcmcia/cf association went through the whole deal of have 5v devices and then moved to 3.3v, and then even supporting 1.8v devices, all the while the USB specs were always set at 5v with no real design ideas for lower voltages Feb 05 20:04:09 seems like they would have learned from the pcmcia/cf groups evolution Feb 05 20:05:49 pcmcia and cf have vastly more pins Feb 05 20:06:05 but you'd think USB could somehow negotiate voltage after some point... Feb 05 20:07:08 buz: yea, i mean like i have 10+ 802.11 dongles here, not one of them actually use 5v Feb 05 20:07:39 you mean they work with 3,6v? Feb 05 20:07:48 itd be vastly easier to feed them 3,6v Feb 05 20:07:59 buz: 3.3v Feb 05 20:08:38 buz: you can remove the switcher and just jumper across it, then just feed 3.3v in from the host, regulated of course Feb 05 20:09:17 i'd rather just use a bog standard 3,6v lion without any sldering... Feb 05 20:10:12 buz: yea, i'd have to check the values on the switcher, but 3.6 probably would work, but not below 3.4 Feb 05 20:10:50 buz: but my main point was that it would be easy to have a 3.3v version of USB Feb 05 20:11:24 yeah sure Feb 05 20:11:24 would make a lot more sense too Feb 05 20:11:30 or maybe go straight to 1.8V Feb 05 20:11:46 buz: without the switcher going from 5v to 3.3v on average we save about 50mA Feb 05 20:11:47 i mean besides 2.5hds, what actually pulls 5V Feb 05 20:12:41 buz: yea, if a device is big enough to need 5v its probably a stationary device like a printer or scanner Feb 05 20:12:56 are there buspowered printers? Feb 05 20:12:58 buz: and in that case you plug it into the wall Feb 05 20:13:12 buz: rarely Feb 05 20:13:12 ive seen bus powered scanners Feb 05 20:13:21 buz: oh yea? Feb 05 20:13:27 i think Feb 05 20:14:05 still they make all these bus powered peripherals for laptops and such, you'd think they'd be more power concerned Feb 05 20:15:26 well bus power is a nice idea in theory Feb 05 20:15:44 its obviously more efficient to produce 5V centrally than give a wall wart to every little thing Feb 05 20:18:24 After politicians, lawyers, and fanboys, designers of wall warts will be the 4th up against the wall ;-))))) Feb 05 20:19:34 3.6v li-ion is only 3.6 for a short time Feb 05 20:19:44 it goes from 4.2-3 Feb 05 20:19:57 Cosmologists need to look closer to home when looking for the missing mass of the universe. It's not Dark Matter. It's all those wall warts. Feb 05 20:29:42 I'd be happy with 48hrs :-) Feb 05 21:12:20 wow Feb 05 21:12:37 seems quite a few folks are interested in this phone Feb 05 21:12:41 but where to buy? Feb 05 21:12:58 counter Feb 05 21:12:58 6 days 08:14:52 (6.344 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.344 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.344 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 21:13:06 oh cool.. Agrajag- is in here... Feb 05 21:13:25 nomasteryoda: you'll have to wait until halfway march Feb 05 21:13:31 ic Feb 05 21:13:53 well, does that mean verizon or cingular will be selling them? Feb 05 21:14:08 * nomasteryoda keeps hopes up Feb 05 21:14:11 =D Feb 05 21:14:36 nope, then the developer devices will be available .... Feb 05 21:14:42 ic Feb 05 21:14:43 ok Feb 05 21:14:58 well then i guess i'll have to get a cheap phone until this baby comes out... Feb 05 21:15:07 nomasteryoda: good idea :-) Feb 05 21:15:12 if i can help, i'll certainly be willing to help Feb 05 21:15:23 been using/supporting Linux since 1999 Feb 05 21:25:43 * rboehme waits for preorders Feb 05 21:31:43 Jeez, sorry about that Feb 05 21:31:54 Stupid firefox keeping its own pastebuffer! I thought I was pasting the url Feb 05 21:32:01 http://pastebin.ca/341847 Feb 05 21:32:38 abliss: thihk I'm missing context. Feb 05 21:33:03 quick dumb question from a guy who knows little about the openmoko project Feb 05 21:33:25 er, sorry. wrong channel I guess :) Feb 05 21:33:27 i'm not really much of a developer, but might be interestede in getting one of these devices to monkey around with. is that even feasible at this point? Feb 05 21:33:48 omal: see the website. Feb 05 21:34:20 referring to the frontpage that suggests devs email lists of what they've done? Feb 05 21:34:51 yes. Feb 05 21:35:00 if you don't feek comfortable doing that, of course you'll have to buy one. Feb 05 21:35:06 s/feek/feel/ Feb 05 21:35:06 cjb meant: if you don't feel comfortable doing that, of course you'll have to buy one. Feb 05 21:35:27 right, i'd be wasting someones time purporting to be a valuable coder Feb 05 21:35:37 right. so what's your question? Feb 05 21:35:48 if it were possible to purchase one to play with now Feb 05 21:36:12 it'll be possible in a month. Feb 05 21:36:26 ok, thats all i needed. thanks, and keep up the good work :D Feb 05 21:36:46 * wm_eddie wonders if there's any GSM in Japan still... Feb 05 22:43:49 counter Feb 05 22:43:50 6 days 06:44:00 (6.281 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 6 days (34.281 days) for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 6 days (218.281 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 05 22:50:16 hang in there. keep up the waiting :) Feb 05 22:54:06 counter++ Feb 05 22:54:43 wouldn't --counter be a better idea? Feb 05 22:58:36 Hmm. Feb 05 23:03:19 It seems that Free software use in Russia just got a boost from Bill Gates. Using unlicenced MS software preloaded on his PC has earned a Russian schoolteacher 5 years in a Siberian prison. (Slashdot story, 4th down) Feb 05 23:03:50 That probably wasn't the real offence though. Feb 05 23:05:55 * mjr got an usb adapter / roll-in cord set, will become useful with the neo too ('less it comes with its own ;) Feb 05 23:06:27 And that's not the real story either. Agendas everywhere. The real story, but not a new one, is that the copyright/piracy lobbies have distorted justice around the world, and the judicial systems are being pressured through WIPO etc. Feb 05 23:07:59 5 years eh Feb 05 23:08:22 Well - no. In that case the real story was probably completely unrelated to his real offence. Feb 05 23:08:26 I just heard about it, only that Gorbachev himself has pleaded the teacher's case to Bill Gates Feb 05 23:08:42 Clint: count = 0; /* expect your Neo's in the post tomorrow. */ :-) Feb 05 23:08:45 hi guys Feb 05 23:08:53 As they were looking for something, anything on the books to charge him with. Feb 05 23:09:11 Morgreet: hurrah Feb 05 23:09:11 hopefully they have my address Feb 05 23:11:14 Any software used in education should be free, anyway. In fact, s/w makers should PAY for their software to be used in education, as it's blatant indoctrination. Feb 05 23:11:36 indeed Feb 05 23:11:50 we're trying to lobby a bit here for free software usage in education Feb 05 23:12:13 a few schools are going for it, hopefully they do well enough for others to follow Feb 05 23:18:16 Too many teachers succumb to the "But this isn't what my kids will be using at work" complaint. The answer should be "We are not in the business of vocational training." **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 06 02:59:57 2007