**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 07 02:59:57 2007 Feb 07 03:44:26 aloril: I'd like to see stats on the number of people in the channel who have sent a certain mumber of messages - e.g. 196 people in channel, but only 20 of those are 'active'. Feb 07 03:44:36 (and the other 176 are lurking) Feb 07 03:44:55 * rwhitby is not saying there is anything wrong with lurking Feb 07 03:45:45 rwhitby: OK, I will add another thing to: automatic answer to wifi/camera questions (ie.. nick has never said anything and it matches wifi. Feb 07 03:45:53 wifi.*\? Feb 07 03:46:04 wifi! Feb 07 03:46:06 (kidding) Feb 07 03:46:58 according to quick test this seems to be most of time relevant: wifi + \? in same line by nick not having talked before almost always means that (s)he is asking about wifi Feb 07 03:51:31 hello test Feb 07 03:51:43 hi ioneon Feb 07 03:55:22 aloril: I was more thinking about a histogram of the number of messages sent by each nick who has ever been connected to the channel, and then apply a cut-off point to identify 'active' participants vs drop-ins or lurkers. Feb 07 03:55:48 someone who says 'wifi' 50 times a day would still be marked as active :-) Feb 07 03:55:59 (annoyingly active) Feb 07 03:56:07 wifi Feb 07 03:56:13 ? Feb 07 03:56:15 wifi Feb 07 03:56:17 :-D Feb 07 03:57:31 by doing all those things you're just making this channel a monkey ground. how about you put those stats up on some site, instead of announcing it here with triggers and stuff all the time, that way people who are interested can look, and those who aren't don't have to see it all the time Feb 07 03:59:27 Agrajag-: about stats, yeah, no sense to talk unless there actually is something new Feb 07 03:59:48 Agrajag-: about wifi.*\? trigger: I think 80% of time it would be right reaction Feb 07 04:00:17 (ie.. when somebody who has never talked matches above, it means (s)he is actually asking wifi) Feb 07 04:01:57 Agrajag-: I wasn't suggesting the stats would be triggered - a web site would be best. Feb 07 04:02:22 yeah.. but im talking about the counter and nick count records as well Feb 07 04:02:30 nod Feb 07 04:03:37 quite often counter is requested here when somebody asks "when" (and I don't know easy good regex for that) Feb 07 04:03:56 but yeah, website too would be good Feb 07 04:05:08 about nick count records, maybe I should do that only when there is significant differentce (ie.. 3 more is not enough, %10 increase is interesting) Feb 07 04:21:16 talk+action stats: 8 nicks >= 1000, 78 nicks >= 100, 337 nicks >= 10, 677 nicks >=1 (from 2006-12-04) Feb 07 04:44:46 now plain "wifi?" and "camera?" triggers canned answers Feb 07 04:45:44 wifi? Feb 07 04:45:44 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 07 04:45:44 OMG, there is no WIfi, is that right? Feb 07 04:46:18 OMG, there is no camera, this phones is useless? Feb 07 04:46:24 hmm.. Feb 07 04:46:42 OMG, there is no camera, this phones is useless? Feb 07 04:47:01 bah, it worked in another channel, back to testing ;-) Feb 07 04:47:12 :) Feb 07 04:49:13 OMG, there is no camera, this phones is useless? Feb 07 04:49:13 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Hardware for details on what is included. Feb 07 04:49:57 * aloril shamelessly ripped most of text from wiki Feb 07 04:51:21 wifi? Feb 07 04:51:21 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 07 04:51:44 whoever, this does not trigger, unless you are newbie, wifi? Feb 07 04:52:06 re.match(r".*wifi.*\?", cmd.lower()) and nick not in nick_stats Feb 07 04:52:08 star-trek-replicator? Feb 07 04:52:12 (and same for camera) Feb 07 04:52:16 SpeedEvil: hehe Feb 07 04:52:26 I've already matched wifi? Feb 07 04:52:33 Excellent Feb 07 04:52:42 hads: you have already talked something ;-) Feb 07 04:52:46 maybe add wireless? Feb 07 04:53:59 aloril: Yup, just testing :) Feb 07 04:54:59 IMO, it's got at least three variables - attraction to males, attraction to females, attraction to anyone that'll stay still long enough. Feb 07 04:55:00 oops Feb 07 04:55:28 On topic, I think I've got funds for a month and a bits time :) Feb 07 04:55:38 anyway, stats are not kept up to date (yet, if somebody says hi and then wifi? I want it to trigger) Feb 07 04:56:15 wifi? Feb 07 04:56:15 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 07 04:56:22 bah! Feb 07 04:56:33 wiml: wifi? alone always triggers Feb 07 04:56:37 available that had an Feb 07 04:56:40 oh, okay Feb 07 04:56:46 blah blah blah blah blah wifi? Feb 07 04:56:49 yeah Feb 07 04:57:01 that is just easy way to answer, just like counter is easy for when? Feb 07 04:57:08 wifi. Feb 07 04:57:18 neat Feb 07 04:59:10 is it $350 in march? Feb 07 04:59:18 yes. Feb 07 05:00:38 if cmd==keyword + "?" or (re.match(r".*%s.*\?" % keyword, cmd.lower()) and nick not in nick_stats): Feb 07 05:00:43 I don't think the final price has been decided yet. Feb 07 05:00:48 and nick_stats is counted when module is loaded Feb 07 05:01:17 keywords: wifi, camera, wireless Feb 07 05:01:37 802.11? Feb 07 05:01:42 prolly not. Feb 07 05:02:02 so multitouch is being developed? Feb 07 05:02:06 or nay Feb 07 05:02:47 maydaytx: in theory if there was multiple connections to display "cheap" multitouch would be possible, but .. I suspect v1 won't have even that Feb 07 05:03:16 there's a maillist posting somewhere saying that they think the hardware might be capable of multitouch, but it would require writing a driver that could do it Feb 07 05:03:28 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000576.html Feb 07 05:03:35 that the one youre talking about? Feb 07 05:03:37 but then there is still fake software possibility: if touch suddenly jumps, you can infer another finger touched Feb 07 05:03:53 maydaytx: yes Feb 07 05:04:25 "a considerable driver effort" :/ Feb 07 05:04:35 wiml, maydaytx: I remember that too, but I think that requires 'multiple connections' or something like that, dunno if its there Feb 07 05:04:51 what do you mean by multiple connections? Feb 07 05:05:03 * aloril would be happy as long hardware had some support and software just averaged and supported only single touch initially Feb 07 05:05:31 I'm not even sure what touch-sensing technology it's using in the first place Feb 07 05:05:39 resistive Feb 07 05:05:41 It'll be resistive film. Feb 07 05:05:45 That's the cheapest. Feb 07 05:05:58 The alternatives are all more expensive or bulkier. Feb 07 05:06:23 SAW would be really nice, as you could use a nice diamond coated screen glass. Feb 07 05:07:02 Rather than a plastic film that's pressed onto the screen and scratches to hell. Feb 07 05:08:12 wireless? Feb 07 05:08:12 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 07 05:08:12 yeah, the whole case could be one block of vapor-depositied diamond Feb 07 05:08:24 SpeedEvil: quoting you from 2007-01-25: Feb 07 05:08:24 Well. With this sort of touchscreen, you can sort of fake it. Feb 07 05:08:24 As you can - with a couple more electrodes get a bounding touch area Feb 07 05:08:44 Yes - however, that's unlikely. Feb 07 05:09:05 as you don't do that unless you intend to implement it in this model. Feb 07 05:09:18 I could be wrong. It does need more electronics Feb 07 05:09:48 SpeedEvil: yeah, it I bet multitouch drivers/software will appear if hardware just supports it Feb 07 05:10:14 there is no need for phase0 or phase1 to have software multitouch support Feb 07 05:11:24 We'll prolly know in 10ish days. Feb 07 05:12:12 are you gonna be able to use the phone's bluetooth to access internet with an ethernet bridge? Feb 07 05:12:16 possibly even faster by looking at source Feb 07 05:12:24 maydaytx: of course; it's open-source. Feb 07 05:12:26 Or open it up :) Feb 07 05:12:52 Unfortunately, source often won't tell you about hardware features the source does not support. Feb 07 05:13:15 SpeedEvil: true, but if it needs to do "averaging" in software, that would tell something Feb 07 05:13:27 If nothing else, the source will tell us what the touchscreen controller chip is, and we can hunt down its datasheet Feb 07 05:13:37 No, it won't. Feb 07 05:13:43 cjb: that only works with certain bluetooth devices, doesnt it Feb 07 05:13:49 It may well be it's just an A/D chip. Feb 07 05:13:58 Which tells you nothing a bout how it's connected. Feb 07 05:14:25 maydaytx: if other side is linux, then any bluetooth dongle should work? Feb 07 05:15:24 SpeedEvil: that's true, but my impression is that it's common to use a specialized touchscreen controller chip, which has whatever analog goo is needed etc. and maybe even does the conversion to x-y coordinates Feb 07 05:15:31 fewer components overall Feb 07 05:15:49 but yeah, if it's a nonspecialized chip then we're still kind of in the dark Feb 07 05:16:23 i guess the relevant question is...does the bluetooth device support "Personal Area Network" Feb 07 05:22:43 is it true that there is no camera? Feb 07 05:22:43 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/Hardware for details on what is included. Feb 07 05:22:54 cool, then I have better camera than any other phone ;-) Feb 07 05:23:00 ;-) Feb 07 05:30:52 counter Feb 07 05:30:52 4 days 23:56:49 (4.998 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.998 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.998 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 05:50:40 counter Feb 07 05:50:40 4 days 23:37:00 (4.984 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.984 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.984 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 06:22:59 aloril: Nicely done there with the camera and wifi answers :) Feb 07 06:23:19 CM: thanks Feb 07 06:24:09 Maybe match "when" or "buy" to the counter trigger too.. Feb 07 06:25:12 "When can I buy it?" or "Is it available in " is also common first question.. As well as "cost" Feb 07 06:25:25 But maybe not over do it ;) Feb 07 06:27:57 added "wi-fi?" (and .*wi-fi.*\?) too Feb 07 06:30:38 umm.. when is used in too many other questions..., but available is maybe possibility: anyway, hand trigger by counter works, availability in different counters, hmm.. Feb 07 06:42:55 wi-fi? Feb 07 06:42:55 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 07 06:53:14 private message for counter, etc.. should now also work Feb 07 07:52:03 good thing is that in next few weeks we will have working gpl driver for marvell 8385 chipset Feb 07 07:52:35 yay! Feb 07 08:27:26 there has been a discussion on the mailing list Feb 07 08:27:50 that the GSM chip has its own analog connection to the microphone Feb 07 08:27:57 surely we can bypass that Feb 07 08:28:41 i would need to feed sound into the GSM chip, any ideas how this would be possible? Feb 07 08:29:34 the only idea i had was this: microphone and a speaker are essentially the same device, so if you send a sound signal into the microphone, the GSM chip is simply going to pick it up Feb 07 08:30:20 rox: wait until Feb 11 and I will explain the whole sound system to you Feb 07 08:30:29 this is rather messy, though, so i was wondering if there are better ideas floating around Feb 07 08:31:30 XorA: since you seem to know a lot about it, could you just confir that feeding sound into the GSM chip will be possible? Feb 07 08:31:44 s/confir/confirm/ Feb 07 08:31:44 rox meant: XorA: since you seem to know a lot about it, could you just confirm that feeding sound into the GSM chip will be possible? Feb 07 08:32:07 rox: you will be able to feed mp3 in if you wanted to Feb 07 08:32:23 XorA: great, that's what i wanted to hear Feb 07 08:33:19 "please hold..." *death metal* "thank you for holding" Feb 07 08:33:26 koen: :-D Feb 07 08:34:11 koen: my friend and I used to have an answering machine that play O Fortuna (The Damien Music from Omen) with us saying we are out sacraficing virgins at the moment, please leave a messafe Feb 07 08:34:28 heh Feb 07 08:34:35 Carmina Burana? Feb 07 08:34:40 koen: yeah Feb 07 08:35:05 * koen looks around Feb 07 08:35:07 XorA: where did you find virgins? :D Feb 07 08:35:12 I should have some other versions of that Feb 07 08:35:22 ah, right, the Therion version Feb 07 08:35:41 Orff Feb 07 08:35:48 or however you spell it Feb 07 08:42:07 mono in OE, that'll make some neo owners happy Feb 07 08:42:58 no compiler yet :( Feb 07 08:44:25 Eblis: you want to compile on a 200Mhz arm? Feb 07 08:44:50 hehe, i know Feb 07 08:44:55 that's why i don't think it's an issue yet Feb 07 08:45:03 although you have to do it once to get a file :( Feb 07 08:45:55 XorA: the java people seem to be keen on running everything through a JIT first Feb 07 08:46:02 so, yes, compiling on 200MHz Feb 07 08:46:58 XorA: 266MHz iirc Feb 07 09:39:45 Just under 5 days to go ... woohoo! Feb 07 09:41:44 indeed :) Feb 07 09:41:48 and then another month :( Feb 07 09:41:50 FWIW: http://www.openembedded.org/filebrowser/org.openembedded.dev/packages/gpephone Feb 07 09:52:58 counter Feb 07 09:52:59 4 days 19:34:41 (4.816 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.816 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.816 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 09:53:06 iiiik Feb 07 10:05:47 LOL. "RIAA says CDs should cost more." (Slashdot) Feb 07 10:18:53 Speech recognition on mobiles by using a server to translate it: http://www.theinquirer.net/default.aspx?article=37477 Feb 07 10:19:25 Not oss, but the idea is nice. (Probably 100 US patents on it too) Feb 07 10:19:55 Nuance claim that the compression gets the data down to 5kb/s Feb 07 10:22:40 Can the Neo use GPRS 3+2, meaning 60kbit/s down and 40kbit/s up? Feb 07 10:23:14 I doubt it would be fast enough anyway Feb 07 10:32:39 the latency is still an issue Feb 07 10:33:01 I've had latencies of up to 7s on average in a past project Feb 07 10:33:06 on GPRS Feb 07 10:33:51 ouch Feb 07 10:34:23 7s is good :-) Feb 07 10:34:46 sheesh Feb 07 10:35:01 it's never nowhere near that bad here Feb 07 10:35:11 perhaps just a function of lesser use per base station, I dunno Feb 07 10:35:44 I thing gmail-mobile works great over gprs Feb 07 10:35:56 s/thing/think/ Feb 07 10:35:56 CM meant: I think gmail-mobile works great over gprs Feb 07 10:36:57 mjr: Well when I go through mountains it can take almost 2 minutes for tcp packet to go through Feb 07 10:42:15 We know the Neo is *loud*, but has any core developer commented on the sound quality when heard through top-quality headphones? (Ie. is the analogue output circuitry reasonable?) Feb 07 10:42:58 I wonder about that too.. I'll use it as an mp3-player for sure Feb 07 10:43:21 I would miss FM radio which I use in my current phone Feb 07 10:44:00 I bet 95% of purchasers will be listening to music on the go, even Phase 1 peeps, hence the question. Feb 07 10:44:29 * koen has an ipod for that :) Feb 07 10:44:40 which probably has the same wolfson chip as the neo Feb 07 10:44:52 Morgreet: I have heard the headphones quality Feb 07 10:45:34 Oh, the digital sound is bound to be fine. It's the analogue output that sometimes screws it up, if designed badly. Feb 07 10:45:43 koen: wm8753? Feb 07 10:46:07 could be Feb 07 10:46:12 * XorA says nothing Feb 07 10:46:16 XorA: can you say anything about the quality? Feb 07 10:46:20 k Feb 07 10:46:38 Morgreet: Id like not to until I receive a final board Feb 07 10:46:56 Morgreet: there is a lot of extra stuff hanginf off, and Ive got a kinda makeshift setup Feb 07 10:46:56 XorA: indeed, could change I suppose. Feb 07 10:47:04 koen: 8721 in 1st/2nd gen, 8731 in 3rd ipod gen Feb 07 10:47:30 humm.. headphones quality.. is that bad or good :) Feb 07 10:47:36 As long as you have 128kbit mp3's or so I don't think the phone will limit the quality Feb 07 10:49:02 CM: you mean the opposite. As long as you have lower than 128kbps MP3, then the phone won't limit quality. The phone only limits the quality of high bitrate streams. Feb 07 10:49:43 Morgreet: True.. But I have almost all of my mp3's in 192 or higher Feb 07 10:50:12 64 or 96 sounds horrible, unless it's an audio-book or so Feb 07 10:50:41 CM: aye, 128k is still discernibly different to the original through any kind of half-reasonable sound system. Feb 07 10:52:10 yeah, 112kbps is absolutely the minimum for music, 160kbps for orchestral music. generally i prefer to encode at 192kbps Feb 07 10:55:01 Can the micro-SD be read/written in an SD slot? Feb 07 10:57:09 yes Feb 07 10:57:12 with adapter Feb 07 10:57:16 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MicroSD Feb 07 10:57:28 Yeah, just read it in that page Feb 07 10:59:11 are there self-powered (battery?) usb wifi cards? Feb 07 11:00:51 Don't recall seeing one. Most are just simple USB dongles, which we won't be able to use directly. Feb 07 11:01:26 would it be feasible to provide a powered usb bus for v2? Feb 07 11:01:31 or is that just too much strain on the batteries? Feb 07 11:02:18 let's use fuel cells <*g*> Feb 07 11:03:18 v2 will have to be powered, or interest will plummet. There's just too much you can't do with an unpowered USB. Drain doesn't matter ... the user should decide whether to trade off battery life for outboard facilities. Feb 07 11:04:11 what kind of connectors does v1 have? 1 usb, 1 audio jack? Feb 07 11:04:13 Anyway, it's just a good opportunity for FIC to market larger power packs as options. Feb 07 11:05:02 does fic have a homepage? i couldn't find anything on google Feb 07 11:06:58 ecraven: let me guess... www.fic.com.tw Feb 07 11:11:00 google 'fic' and it's the top link Feb 07 11:11:26 Thought I might have an adapter for it, but it turned out to be an SD device that your snap out for plugging the SD directly into a USB socket. Very oddball. Feb 07 11:13:54 Uh oh: (Wikipedia) --> "Since all cards up to and including the 1 GB card uses a fixed 512 block size some device drivers do not handle the larger block size and will not even recognize the 2 GB card.[citation needed] Citation for this is more difficult as the SD organization hides this problem." Feb 07 11:14:33 2GB cards also use fixed 512 block size Feb 07 11:15:54 Yeah, that's what it says on the WP page too, so the problem is for > 2G only. That's prolly a typo in that quoted paragraph. Feb 07 11:19:28 The choice of SD/microSD for this open phone seems odd to me, since the SD spec is secret. MMC would have made a lot more sense: open, and available in larger sizes. Feb 07 11:19:39 You can if you are away from your authorised copy of the standard find it on edonkey. Feb 07 11:21:15 SDIO only happes with SD standard. Feb 07 11:21:35 SpeedEvil: handy, since one wouldn't want to drag one's authorized copy around everywhere. Feb 07 11:22:10 SpeedEvil: you wouldnt happen to have a hash for that file? Feb 07 11:22:23 Morgreet: MMC specification stopped on 128MB cards iirc... Feb 07 11:22:25 SDIO becomes a bit irrelevant when the device is under the battery ;-) Feb 07 11:22:35 Not compleltey. Feb 07 11:22:40 there is a GPL SDIO stack posed to enter the kernel anyway Feb 07 11:22:42 Morgreet: newer MMC cards are more complex then SD ones iirc Feb 07 11:22:58 It's probably pretty easy to have a SD extender on a printed wire. Feb 07 11:23:11 going round the battery. Feb 07 11:23:15 "MMC cards are currently available in sizes up to and including 4 GB with 8 GB models announced but not yet available." Feb 07 11:23:40 Are micro-mmc cards available? Feb 07 11:23:55 Yeah, "RS-MMC" Feb 07 11:24:12 1st was MMC (1bit, up to 128MB), then SD came (1 or 4 bit, up to 2-4GB), then MMCv4 (1,4,8bit) Feb 07 11:24:15 Of course the extender runs into the 'storage or wifi/...' preoblem. Feb 07 11:24:26 then rs-mmc, mmc-mobile, mini-sd, micro-sd Feb 07 11:24:37 and few extra names like transflash etc Feb 07 11:24:52 transflash = micro-sd? Feb 07 11:25:27 That's what WP says Feb 07 11:25:36 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/SD_card Feb 07 11:25:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MultiMediaCard Feb 07 11:25:53 Morgreet: yes it does (have a card in front of me) Feb 07 11:27:02 XorA: trying to tie your Yes to a question, hehe Feb 07 11:27:32 Morgreet: transflash == micro sd Feb 07 11:27:50 XorA: that was SpeedEvil's question Feb 07 11:27:52 Morgreet: I sent to wrong person :-) Feb 07 11:27:57 :-) Feb 07 11:29:57 We'll have to build a list on the Wiki of which 2G micro-SD cards work on the Neo. Feb 07 11:30:12 Morgreet: its useless would be Feb 07 11:30:37 hrw: OK then, a list of which don't ;-) Feb 07 11:30:40 Morgreet: many 'manufacturers' of cards just buy them from other companies and sell as own ones Feb 07 11:30:45 Morgreet: same useless Feb 07 11:30:58 I had few identical Kingston cards in hands Feb 07 11:31:05 hrw: how can it be useless to help people not buy a non-working card? Feb 07 11:31:07 some were Toshiba, some Hitachi Feb 07 11:31:42 I think the point is that cards may change without notice ont he packet. Feb 07 11:31:42 Morgreet: how to differ one red kingston from other red kingston when you cannot unpack it and check which brand it really is? Feb 07 11:33:09 hrw: Sounds like a "Some Kingston cards won't work with the Neo because they are rebranded XXX" then. Info helps. I'd stay away from Kingston if I knew that. Feb 07 11:33:43 I don't think it's limited to one. Feb 07 11:33:57 kignston Feb 07 11:34:09 it can be any brand Feb 07 11:34:23 Only if bought from a rebrander. Feb 07 11:36:23 I know 512M kingston works with NEo :-) Feb 07 11:36:50 XorA: argh you Feb 07 11:37:00 Will the Neo boot from the micro-SD out of the box, given an appropriate image on it? (I'm assuming it comes empty, and boots from the 64M flash by default) Feb 07 11:37:13 Morgreet: it can boot from sd Feb 07 11:37:33 Super Feb 07 11:38:03 I'll start looking around for an adapter to full-size SD. Feb 07 11:38:24 Many micro-sd cards come witht hem. Feb 07 11:39:03 Aha, even better. Like the small memory sticks do too. Feb 07 12:08:02 Wolfson WM8753: "External component requirements are reduced as no separate microphone or headphone amplifiers are required, and Cap-less connections can be made to all loads." Feb 07 12:08:23 So I guess we can assume headphone quality will be as good as on any other gadget that uses that chip. Feb 07 12:08:43 Is that the audio output chip? Feb 07 12:08:53 Seems to be, yeah. Feb 07 12:09:12 According to OM's WP entry Feb 07 12:09:23 It depends. Feb 07 12:09:37 Power supply and feeding quality may not be as high as they should be. Feb 07 12:09:41 But generally, yes. Feb 07 12:09:51 Good point, yeah. Feb 07 12:26:14 When I upgraded my dbus here recently to v1, a lot of packages ended up having to be revdepped afterwards. OM uses 0.9 according to Sean's page ... does that mean we'll be maintaining that version throughout product lifetime? Or that we'll have a rather large revdep upgrade at some point? Feb 07 12:27:38 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-January/000000.html Feb 07 12:27:51 it will be bumped to 1.0.2 Feb 07 12:27:51 "dbus 0.9" Feb 07 12:32:08 Hopefully before September then. Because upgrading all the packages that have dependencies on 0.9 on Mom+Dad phones will not be much fun. Feb 07 12:37:56 mhh nokia e90 might appear at 3GSM Feb 07 12:38:07 now THAT phone with linux i'd buy in a heartbeat Feb 07 12:40:25 all I can say is... don't hold your breath Feb 07 12:40:36 Morgreet: I see that in this way: now we will get ssytem which works. then we (devs) will some stuff, update other and prepare system which will works nice. then users will get this Feb 07 12:41:47 i guess when Openmoko becomes available for the masses, Benefon will open their gsm-phone platform, or go out of business Feb 07 12:41:54 s/guess/hope Feb 07 12:42:44 hrw: indeed. That's why I suggested dbus-1 before September. We can cope with rather wide-ranging upgrades, but it's scary for Joe Bloggs. Feb 07 12:43:01 cu Feb 07 12:46:50 buz: what I'd like to see is a *modular* open phone. Ie. slots for optional modules inside, so that you can mix'n'match any devices you want in the gadget, including GSM, 3G, wifi, 2ndary power, Ethernet, Firewire, thumb drive, VGA adapter, etc etc ... Feb 07 12:47:14 Doesn't really work. Feb 07 12:47:38 You end up losing horrible, horrible amounts of volumes to the fixed sizes. Feb 07 12:47:44 yup Feb 07 12:48:09 with non-modular design you can integrate all features in a chip or two and make it smaller and more power efficient Feb 07 12:48:17 and cheaper too Feb 07 12:49:02 It's not really that - more that without modules, you can more or less put the bits in a (virtual) case, and bang on it with a hammer, till they all fit, even in strange positions. Feb 07 12:49:24 Cheaper yes, smaller yes. More power efficient no ... within such a localized form factor, you wouldn't need driver power for the plugs. Feb 07 12:49:34 and you can get a open phone already, just buy PC/104 board and required extension cards (GSM/Firewire/Whatnot) Feb 07 12:49:44 Yeah :) Feb 07 12:50:02 And the battery life with a car battery is awesome! Feb 07 12:50:05 Be serious. I know PC/104, and that was a silly suggestion. Feb 07 12:50:31 The next great trend, phones integrating excersize machines. Feb 07 12:51:25 SpeedEvil: well they can certainly control exercise machines. After all, we were talking about controlling Bluetooth vibrators yesterday ;-) Feb 07 12:51:40 The only sort-of option that works not too badly is vertical stacking of modules that make the phone as a whole thicker. Feb 07 12:51:59 And even that has horrible issues. Feb 07 12:53:27 Not to mention all the fun of all those connectors, which will bounce, oxidise, ... Feb 07 12:53:55 we need a phone that has just a GSM-module (as it needs to be approved by FCC whatnot), maybe bluetooth/wifi and then just one huge or couple smaller FGPAs, now that would be truely open and customizable phone Feb 07 12:54:21 And a large battery. Feb 07 12:54:32 FPGAs are not especially power efficient. Feb 07 12:54:36 ahh, the fgpa strikes back Feb 07 12:54:56 SpeedEvil: oh, i was thinking of running of the grid, not with batteries (they are optional customization) Feb 07 12:55:18 What is really needed is a couple of large reels, to attach the external turing tape. Feb 07 12:55:25 a mobile phone with optional batteries? Feb 07 12:55:32 SpeedEvil: connector technology solved those problems ages ago. I have 20-year old DIN41612 plugs and sockets that are still working perfectly. Feb 07 12:55:41 Right. Feb 07 12:55:48 so_solid_moo: you can still move it (thus mobile) even if it doesnt function :) Feb 07 12:56:06 Now make them a hundred connectors wide, that fit in a space 20*2*1mm Feb 07 12:57:07 what is the current status of wireless-USB and/or Firewire? that would solve, atleast in theory, all connectivity and expandability problems Feb 07 12:57:49 What's wireless USB? Feb 07 12:58:25 "Wireless USB is a short-range, high-bandwidth wireless extension to USB that combines the speed and ease-of-use of USB 2.0 with the convenience of wireless technology." Feb 07 12:58:39 WP? Feb 07 12:58:56 WUSB Feb 07 12:59:07 Yep, on WP -- http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wireless_USB Feb 07 12:59:40 ah.. WP=wikipedia :) Feb 07 12:59:58 Interesting, not come across that before. Looking up vendors. Feb 07 13:00:00 not WordPerfect Feb 07 13:00:04 Hehehehe Feb 07 13:00:07 Retro :P Feb 07 13:00:14 yeah.. i feel old again Feb 07 13:00:27 Well RAYNET's been around a long time too :P Feb 07 13:00:55 nono, WP means wordpress now Feb 07 13:01:23 *sigh* there should be a law that prohibits reusing old acronyms Feb 07 13:01:25 Clint: Wikipedia is a bit more popular than Wordpress ... just slightly ;-) Feb 07 13:01:39 yet i have never seen anyone use 'WP' to mean wikipedia until now Feb 07 13:02:04 usually i see people just refer wikipedia as wiki Feb 07 13:02:06 i miss wordperfect Feb 07 13:02:10 Acronym space is a cache ... old entries get flushed out by new ones :P Feb 07 13:03:00 just like ical isn't ical anymore Feb 07 13:03:28 Wireless USB: " It operates in the 3.1 to 10.6 GHz frequency range and spreads communication over an ultra-wideband of frequencies." Feb 07 13:03:30 Wow! Feb 07 13:03:54 Very cool, bye bye ISM band Feb 07 13:05:35 still waiting for first laptops with Wireless USB. havent seen one yet Feb 07 13:05:36 Hehe, let's get FIC to investigate using that in v2. Feb 07 13:05:58 and Apple will probably put Wireless Firewire in their laptops Feb 07 13:06:08 "Firewireless" Feb 07 13:06:17 Hehe Feb 07 13:07:26 Well, musicians won't rejoice if the wireless bit adds latency to Firewire. Which it will of course; just hope it's not a lot. Feb 07 13:10:20 ah, temperature has warmed up from -31C to -20C and the engineblock heater has been on for about 2 hours, perhaps it will now start. -> Away Feb 07 13:10:59 You live on Titan? ;-) Feb 07 13:12:01 finland and canada aren't quite as exciting as titan Feb 07 13:12:34 We've not had winter here in UK yet. I have a rose blooming in the garden right now. Feb 07 13:13:15 we've had snow in the UK, depending where you live. Feb 07 13:13:21 more tomorrow. Feb 07 13:13:29 Oh! Feb 07 13:13:39 it was -5 last night (degC) Feb 07 13:13:48 it's warm in the sun, but it is getting cold now and then Feb 07 13:13:53 (I have an apple tree blossoming as well, though) Feb 07 13:13:57 hmm, I saw an 8 port firewire microphone input with phantom power the other day Feb 07 13:13:59 My rosebush must be an import from Titan then. ;-) Feb 07 13:14:01 I covererted it. Feb 07 13:14:33 no snow in luton then huh? Feb 07 13:14:48 We had snow here in Charlotte NC last week Feb 07 13:14:50 tres nice Feb 07 13:15:02 'cept southerners can't drive in snow for shit. Feb 07 13:15:04 -8C last night in Farnborough Feb 07 13:15:12 ... and the pond is still frozen :) Feb 07 13:15:36 tomorrow the trains might be so screwed up that I could get away with staying home Feb 07 13:16:26 Dunno about Luton, I'll check its weather station. Feb 07 13:16:31 Luton Airport , United Kingdom (EGGW) 51-52N 000-22W Feb 07 13:16:36 Temperature: 35 F (2 C) Feb 07 13:18:16 Hey, weather is a killer app for Brits, they talk about nothing else. :P We'll have to have a weather app on the Neo :P Feb 07 13:20:19 http://stolendata.ath.cx/~djinn/spot_that_error.jpg Feb 07 13:24:21 go go SEGV Feb 07 13:24:23 I don't see the deliberate mistake Feb 07 13:24:26 wanna give a clue? Feb 07 13:24:26 Wb :P Feb 07 13:24:29 first thing I looked for was porn in the icons tho :-) Feb 07 13:27:29 * SpeedEvil ponders. Feb 07 13:28:04 Users inputting current weather conditions + GPS + distributed computing = neo forecast! Feb 07 13:29:37 the possibilities are endless, eh ? :) Feb 07 13:30:37 V2 must have a complete weather station to support this! With hat-mounted rain collector. Feb 07 13:31:25 rain/snow Feb 07 13:31:25 Haha Feb 07 13:31:26 Ok, so you're not going to tell us the error huh? Feb 07 13:31:44 its probably a typo in the languge from processor to penis or something Feb 07 13:32:12 hand holding the device has one finger too many Feb 07 13:32:47 Make the rain collector tin foil and it's have other uses ... satellite dish and anti-spook shield all in one ;-) Feb 07 13:32:54 haha Feb 07 13:32:55 nice Feb 07 13:33:17 now you say it, I can see it Feb 07 13:33:25 * noidd prints and puts it up in his cube Feb 07 13:33:31 And steerable wifi antenna! Feb 07 13:34:49 And when it's not raining, beer drip feed tank :P Feb 07 13:35:13 hi Feb 07 13:35:31 Are maky OpenMokotes in Europe? Feb 07 13:35:54 most it seems Feb 07 13:36:02 counter Feb 07 13:36:02 4 days 15:51:37 (4.661 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.661 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.661 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 13:36:21 wääh. one month still. Feb 07 13:36:40 Everyone know about this: http://www.fostel.org ? Feb 07 13:38:16 Open Moko: Sean Moss-Pultz --- we're on it Feb 07 13:38:56 Yup Feb 07 13:39:00 Sean will be there Feb 07 13:39:14 I was wondering if anyone else handy to Paris was interested in coming along Feb 07 13:39:28 * SpeedEvil wants to, but will not be going. Feb 07 13:41:52 SpeedEvil: Pourquoi? Porqué? Cén fa? Why? Feb 07 13:42:05 Money problems mainly. Feb 07 13:42:34 saving for the phone ? :) Feb 07 13:42:55 And time problems. Partially :) Feb 07 13:43:16 It all adds up - and no convenient airport where I could get to paris. Feb 07 13:44:47 xkr47: Hehe.. ;) Feb 07 13:45:58 Just read a very odd thing in WP's Firewire entry: "Cable TV providers (in the US, with digital systems) must, upon request of a customer, provide a cable box with a functional FireWire interface. The relevant law is CFR 76.640 Section 4 Subsections i and ii." Feb 07 13:47:52 Morgreet: not that odd if you thing that US law says that tomato is a vegetable (as it is not eaten with other fruits/berries as desert) and because ketchup mostly is made of tomatoes it is also a vegetable Feb 07 13:48:13 LOL Feb 07 13:50:39 Plus, the frenches language problem :) Feb 07 13:52:29 CM ?-) Feb 07 13:57:06 counter Feb 07 13:57:06 4 days 15:30:32 (4.646 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.646 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.646 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 13:58:09 aloril, counter Feb 07 13:58:17 counter Feb 07 13:58:17 4 days 15:29:22 (4.645 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.645 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.645 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 13:58:43 0.001 days less! Feb 07 13:58:48 :) Feb 07 13:58:58 I guess we'll get the OM code repository and wiki login in 4 days' time. Anything else beyond that? Feb 07 13:59:19 no mention of encryption on WUSB wiki page Feb 07 13:59:29 Marex: s/,/:/ works ;-) Feb 07 14:04:08 xkr47: About the link you pasted.. Good grip on that Creative Feb 07 14:04:56 Dunno, looks a bit unsafe. I think it needs another thumb to hold up the bottom right corner. Feb 07 14:05:32 CM, :) Feb 07 14:10:46 http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/ Feb 07 14:10:50 anyone seen that before? Feb 07 14:11:01 looks very VERY similer to our current designs. Feb 07 14:11:23 Sue Them! :) Feb 07 14:11:32 What does? The layout? Feb 07 14:12:00 Doing messaging, sms, im, irc, voice, phone, contacts handling all via dbus Feb 07 14:12:26 I've not dug deep to see how much work they've done that way Feb 07 14:12:46 * Robot101 waves Feb 07 14:12:49 we've done a lot :P Feb 07 14:12:56 sms too? Feb 07 14:13:01 Robot101: that your project? Feb 07 14:13:09 noidd: I'm one of the lead developers, yes Feb 07 14:13:16 Sweet! :-) Feb 07 14:13:20 * Robot101 mailed coreteam@openmoko about it, got no reply :( Feb 07 14:13:39 Were you involved in the discussion on the mailing list about it all? Feb 07 14:13:55 * aloril feels that this channel has about everybody here ;-) Feb 07 14:14:30 noidd: I think I fell behind on the community list because it was full of 'tards, I need to catch up on the developer list I guess? Feb 07 14:14:58 is there actual content on the devel list yet? Feb 07 14:15:06 Plenty Feb 07 14:15:40 re Feb 07 14:16:04 can i safely delete the past 800 messages from community without missing anything? Feb 07 14:16:13 :P Feb 07 14:16:57 yes Feb 07 14:17:03 Clint: probably, yes. Feb 07 14:17:07 excellent Feb 07 14:17:14 anything worth reading on there was copied to dev Feb 07 14:17:24 or to the wiki Feb 07 14:18:01 Unless you have a fetish for GNU/Linux and UNIX history flamewars. Feb 07 14:18:20 as many people do Feb 07 14:18:30 Robot101: If you introduce yourself to the dev list I promise you will get a warm welcome. Feb 07 14:19:01 Especially if you start with "Does it have wifi?" ;-))) Feb 07 14:19:03 Robot101: the coreteam email is pretty much just the core devs and sean and they're REALLY under the gun. Feb 07 14:19:04 warm flames Feb 07 14:22:07 hmm... I would like neo to be a bit bigger and include this: 1) 1-2 AA batteries in addition to internal one 2) at least 2 powered USB ports Feb 07 14:22:10 noidd: ok... I'll join the list and read up on the thread Feb 07 14:22:32 aloril: I misread that as "I would like neo to be no bigger than 1-2 AA batteries" :D Feb 07 14:22:50 1) would be used to charge internal one and you could change AA's as required without rebooting Feb 07 14:22:54 Robot101: hehe Feb 07 14:23:04 Robot101: sure, if I get HMD ;-) Feb 07 14:23:20 2) obvious ;-) Feb 07 14:25:05 * xkr47 thinks one aaa battery could add the missing 1.5 volt to the internal battery to get 5V for usb ;-) Feb 07 14:25:09 I guess capacitor would give ability to change battery without powering down, but with internal one I get much more extra time (hours instead of minutes) Feb 07 14:25:41 did my mail about Moko and .Net make it to the devel mailing list yet ? i made an error when i sent the email and then subscribed to the list :) ... so i got a reply saying the email is pending for approval Feb 07 14:25:43 xkr47: ah.. I want to be able to use Neo1973 with full power usage and even when there is USB items in it Feb 07 14:26:14 "in" ?-) Feb 07 14:26:39 and with internal battery can run AA's down and then just put another in it: 2-5h intensive usage -> days of intensive usage (assuming enough rechargeable AA's) Feb 07 14:26:59 xkr47: hehe, connected to it Feb 07 14:28:08 why not glue together all your usb stuff into one necklace and then have an usb connector as the "jewelry".. :) Feb 07 14:28:10 run AA down -> at suitable point in next hour swap it (before internal battery runs out of juice) -> charge internal battery -> run AA again down, repeat Feb 07 14:28:32 counter Feb 07 14:28:33 4 days 14:59:06 (4.624 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.624 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.624 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 14:28:42 xkr47: not all USB stuff is that small Feb 07 14:29:12 * xkr47 imagines camera etc as a part of the "necklace" :9 Feb 07 14:29:21 (I didn't specifically say "small" =) Feb 07 14:29:28 hehe Feb 07 14:30:00 The necklace could probably fall afoul of various weapons laws by the time it's fully populates. (24*AA, ...) Feb 07 14:30:24 :D Feb 07 14:30:59 "So what if I have 220V DC in my necklace! It's not lethal! Ask edison if you don't believe me!" Feb 07 14:31:40 * xkr47 welcomes nslu2 guy Feb 07 14:33:21 * aloril wonders why HMD's are not used with mobile phones Feb 07 14:33:50 Humidity Monitoring Devices ?-) Feb 07 14:34:02 * xkr47 is cracking up at work (obviously) and needs to go home Feb 07 14:35:02 Well a necklace populated with Sony Li-Ion batteries would be well regarded in pro-capital punishment circles. Feb 07 14:36:52 Holy Mackerel Devices? Feb 07 14:37:58 Her Majesty's Doughnuts? Feb 07 14:38:46 Hackable Mobile Dil^H^H^HDevice Feb 07 14:39:52 Well apparently, the latter are, or will be. ;-) Feb 07 14:42:08 I think I need a wander down to Soho, might be some pretty interesting Bluetooth devices around ... Feb 07 14:42:30 fluffs: can the s3c2410 do a trick similar to pxa270 and display a 320x240 framebuffer on a 640x480 screen? Feb 07 14:43:19 I had a quick look through the video section of the datasheet, but saw no reference to scaling. Just panning. Feb 07 14:43:48 arse Feb 07 14:44:07 XorA: the s3c2410 does have some virtual window stuff, but i think is mainly for down sizing Feb 07 14:44:12 * prpplague checks the specs Feb 07 14:44:31 XorA: LaF0rge said so a while ago Feb 07 14:44:40 The sc... can't scale Feb 07 14:44:53 The LCD can be put in qvga mode Feb 07 14:45:07 seems to achieve the same to me Feb 07 14:45:28 SpeedEvil: on the fly, or just on powerup? Feb 07 14:45:32 as long as 320x240 fills the whole of the screen thats fine Feb 07 14:45:37 pretty much generally - though lower datarate = bit lower power Feb 07 14:45:46 on the fly AIUI Feb 07 14:45:55 Great! Feb 07 14:46:02 good Feb 07 14:46:13 means we need xrandr though? Feb 07 14:46:19 (i hate the thing) Feb 07 14:46:26 for rotate? Feb 07 14:46:28 XorA: yea, on horizontal and vertical panning Feb 07 14:46:32 for resize Feb 07 14:46:32 oh Feb 07 14:46:38 yeah Feb 07 14:47:16 * aloril wonders when somebody accidentally sends 10000 SMS with Neo ;-) Feb 07 14:47:26 count Feb 07 14:47:28 counter Feb 07 14:47:29 4 days 14:40:10 (4.611 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.611 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.611 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 14:47:31 then Feb 07 14:47:54 Most providers have some sort of credit limit. Feb 07 14:49:12 aloril: good point actually. Might be a good idea to have a limits config outside of apps, so that mistakes don't have too much impact, or Neo will get a bad rep. Feb 07 14:50:46 Yeah - plus, we really, really don't want trojans. Feb 07 14:51:04 Morgreet: with support for features like preventing you from sending a message to your wife instead of the intended girlfriend Feb 07 14:51:40 Aye, sure hope that nobody implements an auto-install system for executables. That would be real bad. Feb 07 14:51:56 auto-run Feb 07 14:52:02 Something like a signed repository maybe. Feb 07 14:52:12 Or even several. Feb 07 14:52:16 prpplague: haha. An important feature. Feb 07 14:52:56 'No texting on saturday nights, unless you first solve a logic puzzle.' Feb 07 14:52:56 while some_broken_condition; do send_SMS; sleep 60; done #;-) or some broken forking .... fork SMS bomb ;-) Feb 07 14:54:50 or script is broken and rings everybody on address book (even worse, play some embarrassing sound file to everybody in address book) or .. I guess there will be some horror stories Feb 07 14:55:42 a party leader recently called one of her politicians and told her voicebox that she should resign when really she meant to call her co leader Feb 07 14:55:50 so stuff like that happens with normal phones, too ; Feb 07 14:56:11 buz: yeah, but with automation you can amplify effect ;-) Feb 07 14:56:18 Has any sort of standard firewall app emerged for other Linux phones? Configuring netfilter from the commandline isn't for Mom+Dad. Feb 07 14:56:36 Morgreet: easy, really. firewall everything Feb 07 14:56:39 OpenMoko is powerful, but that means also potential for huge blunders Feb 07 14:56:47 what firewall tasks do mom&dad need to do? Feb 07 14:57:20 deny from any should be fine for most Feb 07 14:57:25 Morgreet: I think phones are behind NAT by default (unless you mean firewall against outgoing connections) Feb 07 14:57:58 Bluetooth - maybe not. Feb 07 14:58:28 aloril: yep. Because they'll quite innocently receive emails that say "Click this for your free prize" ... so I think something that saves them from their innocence would be handy. Feb 07 14:59:22 Owner/user is also interesting. For example, I buy a phone for my 8yo girl (hypothetical). I certainly don't want someone to be able to install a tracking app on it if it's put down for a moment. Feb 07 14:59:39 Aye Feb 07 15:01:12 of course lots of potential for bigger blunders has been already possible for long time with for example email Feb 07 15:01:48 SpeedEvil: you want signed apps then i guess Feb 07 15:02:03 or simply root access denied by default Feb 07 15:02:03 I can't think of another way round it. Feb 07 15:02:11 Or that. Feb 07 15:02:18 and noexec on user partition Feb 07 15:02:32 mhh noexec on user partition could do just fine? Feb 07 15:02:36 Yeah - standard stuff - but not so much for phones. Feb 07 15:02:52 actually, no exec doesnt reall yhelp if scripting languages are there :( Feb 07 15:03:34 password on boot menu (so if user swaps micro-sd -> can't boot there without password) Feb 07 15:03:46 or boot using USB without knowing password Feb 07 15:03:54 noexec is no limitation Feb 07 15:04:13 you can run apps from noexec mountpoint Feb 07 15:04:24 you can? Feb 07 15:04:27 then what is it good for Feb 07 15:04:53 One way around the problem is to prevent installs entirely when in normal operation mode, so that regardless of what bad stuff comes down, it doesn't compromise the system as a whole. And as long as the root/user divide is maintained, that shouldn't be too hard. Feb 07 15:05:34 Morgreet: you dont need to install stuff to run it Feb 07 15:06:17 buz: indeed, but the fact that it's not installed means that you can recover from infection. Feb 07 15:06:55 at the beginning, security through obscurity will help Feb 07 15:07:27 Hopefully this platform will attract virus/troja writers tho. Feb 07 15:07:46 (as it gets very popular) Feb 07 15:08:25 It will, guaranteed, especially since OM will work with OpenEZX phones too. Feb 07 15:10:03 somehow i doubt most of moto's customers will care if OM runs on their phoens... Feb 07 15:10:29 are there any LiMo phones announced, btw? Feb 07 15:11:11 buz: no, they're starting with the most important stuff first, ie. their lawyers. ;-) Feb 07 15:11:51 probably got shot at by the FSF fornot calling it Gnu/LiMo Feb 07 15:13:19 LOL, they'll get shot by the FSF for a far more important reason .... "Linux kernel and user source code will not be redistributable to non-LiMo members under any circumstances". Feb 07 15:13:37 Go figure. Some people are just clueless. Feb 07 15:13:40 does it say that? Feb 07 15:13:53 Yeah, in their announcement. Feb 07 15:14:58 Wow. Feb 07 15:15:04 Rotate the following 90 degrees Feb 07 15:15:08 (. rit Feb 07 15:15:16 "Hold me, Retard" Feb 07 15:15:58 obviously, limo must be a MS project to stop people from using linux on phones ... Feb 07 15:17:16 Morgreet: that's fine, as long asthey don't distribute the binaries Feb 07 15:17:25 * aloril suspects its a 'bug' in announcement Feb 07 15:17:28 =) Feb 07 15:17:49 buz: nah, even MS isn't *that* clueless. LiMo must have been some quickie late-night idea for those 6 companies to not appear irrelevant. They obviously didn't research the issue. Feb 07 15:18:11 Morgreet: unfortunatly not, its been on the cards for some time Feb 07 15:19:30 they'll just implode and fail miserably, but hey, that's thier choice Feb 07 15:21:02 Well, if Neo/OM were to get some serious open competition, I'm all for that. May the best and most open win. :-) Feb 07 15:22:00 * aloril remembers some article in some linux site saying that kernel would be GPL and middleware would be closed Feb 07 15:26:02 so, they re-implement a closed version of dbus, esb, tipc, dipc, corba and rendezvous. Feb 07 15:26:05 :-P Feb 07 15:26:11 sounds lovely. I can't wait. Feb 07 15:26:18 Hehe, and a lot more. Good luck to them. Feb 07 15:26:48 well if the kernel is there, we could theoretically stick OM or GPE phone on top of it? Feb 07 15:27:02 with a lot less trouble than bringing linux to HTC phones, anyway Feb 07 15:27:29 Oh, reminds me: somewhere on the MLs, Sean replied to a post saying that he'd love to get FSF endorsement for Neo/OM. I wonder if there's any milage in that. Feb 07 15:27:57 Would be quite a feather in cap. Feb 07 15:28:04 i dont really care if the FSF likes my phone or not Feb 07 15:29:08 buz: but many would see it as affirming the phone's openness. And after all, openness is the only reason for buying it. Feb 07 15:29:35 sure Feb 07 15:29:45 but personally i have a different definition of open than the FSF has Feb 07 15:30:15 do you have a different definition of "free"? Feb 07 15:30:44 in mine, free is free to run whatever software you want Feb 07 15:30:59 <_llll_> eg debian has a different definition of "free". i dont understand this notion that the fsf has a monopoly on "freedom" Feb 07 15:31:00 not being shot at for deciding proprietary software does the better job for the problem at hand Feb 07 15:31:21 ah, you want freedom _from_ something Feb 07 15:31:36 <_llll_> perhaps i should start the FamousSoftwareFoundation, and then everyone will have to defer to my notion of "fame" Feb 07 15:32:30 buz: fair enough, that's your definition, and your right. But it doesn't focus on software freedom, which is what the FSF do. Feb 07 15:32:46 <_llll_> the fsf focus on one notion of freedom Feb 07 15:33:25 <_llll_> but it's silly for me to argue, OM would benefit form fsf, debian and osi approval :) Feb 07 15:33:34 <_llll_> and anyone else who care to approve it Feb 07 15:33:58 just you wait for DHS to approve it as terrorist friendly Feb 07 15:34:17 it would also benefit from that Feb 07 15:34:17 Yeah, license wars don't help. But still, you have to remember that the only point in Neo/OM is openness. There is no other purpose to the project. Feb 07 15:34:48 <_llll_> fic dont iuntend to make a profit? Feb 07 15:35:45 _llll_: from reading Sean's vision in many different places, profit seems to be very secondary. FIC knows how to make profit already. This is an experiment for them. Feb 07 15:36:06 yeah, experiment in making new profits Feb 07 15:36:36 which is fine by me Feb 07 15:37:31 My guess is they'll be making a small profit from the basic hardware sale, and will have a greatly reduced software expenditure because of community development. That's enough to justify the project, and the rest is "Let's see what happens". Feb 07 15:37:47 probably true Feb 07 15:38:10 I _suspect_ they can make a profit at $350 even with the onesy-twoesy volume of P1 Feb 07 15:38:12 I Feb 07 15:38:25 and they get a lot of recognition in the OSS world Feb 07 15:38:29 for other products as well Feb 07 15:38:37 'm fairly sure that tehy can make a quite reasonable profiit from p2 Feb 07 15:38:44 Especially if it hits in volume. Feb 07 15:38:49 Allegedly the same hardware will sell in China as a WinMobile anyway. Feb 07 15:38:55 If they're wise, they base their profit on the hardware and depend/count on the community to make the hardware attractive. Feb 07 15:39:35 Software could work too. Feb 07 15:39:42 How? Feb 07 15:39:47 Good voice recognition, mapping. Feb 07 15:39:52 Closed Feb 07 15:39:53 ? Feb 07 15:39:55 for example. Feb 07 15:39:57 Sure. Feb 07 15:40:03 I guess Feb 07 15:40:17 They're not about to score points with the community by doing that though. Feb 07 15:40:35 The community can come up with alternatives for speech recognition if they want. Feb 07 15:40:43 Selling maps in a portable format would, though. Feb 07 15:40:48 Yeah. Feb 07 15:41:15 is any moderator of the openmoko-devel mailing list around ? Feb 07 15:41:17 Let the community develop the apps that use them, or even give them something to begin with, make profit on maps. Feb 07 15:41:17 I suspect the map data originators are in many ways even more scared than the music people though. Feb 07 15:41:40 I bet FIC are not unhappy at being the "bad boys" in the phone manufacturers' community, through openness. A bit of notoriety never hurt anyone. Feb 07 15:42:13 I really suspect it's not even on the radar. Feb 07 15:42:22 Not yet, anyway. Feb 07 15:42:30 But it has the potential to shake things up. Feb 07 15:42:39 It's a small club. Yep, it'll be on the radar. Feb 07 15:43:05 I'd be surprised if not at least Motorola is maintaining a close watch. Feb 07 15:43:19 At some level, yes. Feb 07 15:44:05 Especially if that Slashdot article of a couple of days ago was right .... that Symbian has major problems, and a lot of unhappiness. Feb 07 15:44:36 Hm, by any chance do you have that linked? Feb 07 15:44:48 Think I do, sec Feb 07 15:45:39 http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/05/139207 Feb 07 15:45:47 Thanks Feb 07 15:47:28 The last link eally eye openingon the story is r Feb 07 15:47:34 Oops Feb 07 15:47:55 The last link in that story is really eye-opening. Feb 07 15:48:16 (Mouse went into cardiac arrest) Feb 07 15:48:52 Hm, for a minute I thought you had multiple indepentend parts of your brain that collaboratively construct sentences. Feb 07 15:49:01 Independent even Feb 07 15:49:14 Oh I do, but in this case it was the mouse ;-) Feb 07 15:49:20 :D Feb 07 15:50:06 SpeedEvil: you know what manufacturers lcd is being used in the neo? Feb 07 15:51:06 Btw, if you're a SciFi fan, there's a tremendous novel called "Aristoi" by Walter Jon Williams that has precisely that as the topic -- multiple independent daemons in the brain, cooperative personalities, every liberated person is a team. :-) Feb 07 15:51:17 No clue Feb 07 15:51:20 (SuN) Feb 07 15:51:28 Sounds cool. Feb 07 15:51:35 Is it public domain? ;) Feb 07 15:52:12 Don't think SciFi books have been liberated yet ;-))) Feb 07 15:52:34 http://www.baen.org/library/ Feb 07 15:52:36 Some have. Feb 07 15:52:47 Yeah, darn good that, and Gutenberg Feb 07 15:53:01 * Morgreet wants a really good ebook reader for OM Feb 07 15:53:21 I like lynx on my laptop. Feb 07 15:53:30 With a script to backreference the book. Feb 07 15:53:40 lynx is years overdue for a new release Feb 07 15:54:08 So that if a proper name hasn't been mentioned in 50 lines, it makes the proper name a link to the first mention. Feb 07 15:54:38 Majorly handy for 'cast of thousands' books, or even ones you are interrupted on. Feb 07 16:10:50 I like w3m for a text browser Feb 07 16:12:17 The arrow keys move the pointer rather than select the next hyperlink, which is very handy since a lot of pages have a sidebar before the main content, and you want to follow a link to the main content without tabbing through a hundred items in a sidebar Feb 07 16:12:37 It also accepts mouse input Feb 07 16:13:05 I'd really like a thumbstick on the v1 Feb 07 16:13:08 :/ Feb 07 16:13:24 Not seen w3m. Emerging it now. Feb 07 16:13:58 Morgreet: I use it on my cell phone every now and then, or when I want to browse something nsfw from work Feb 07 16:14:06 * XorA likes links as it also has an x11 gfx driver Feb 07 16:14:17 is any moderator of the openmoko-devel mailing list around ? :) Feb 07 16:14:27 will there be a Xoo image for the neo? Feb 07 16:16:02 ecraven: there is already. stefan_schmidt links the URL periodically. Feb 07 16:16:05 there already was a prelim one, though without buttons I think Feb 07 16:16:24 not that there's much to button Feb 07 16:16:34 oh, does anyone know the link? Feb 07 16:17:03 ecraven: http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/OpenMoko/neo1973-xoo-device.tar.bz2 Feb 07 16:17:29 mjr: Once I have my device I'll add the buttons Feb 07 16:17:33 Hehehe, IRC service >>> all Feb 07 16:19:57 * stefan_schmidt hopes his cold is gone when the phone arrives. Still enough to do with my university tests. :( Feb 07 16:20:37 looks nice.. now i just need some software to run Feb 07 16:21:06 leventhal: w3m is cute. :P Still getting my head around the concept of images in a text-mode browser ... but nice. :P Feb 07 16:22:58 Does it do css? Feb 07 16:23:42 it can Feb 07 16:23:49 ecraven: You can start with installing matchbox wm on your host. Everything else is available on sunday. Feb 07 16:23:51 err Feb 07 16:23:57 sorry, misread Feb 07 16:24:07 lack of css in w3m is annoying Feb 07 16:24:21 Pity Feb 07 16:28:30 stefan_schmidt: neo will have matchbox? nice :) Feb 07 16:32:29 Is anyone intending to run OM under Xen full virtualization? Or KVM, now that it's in 2.6.20? Feb 07 16:33:07 http://www.iol.co.za/html/newideas/page2.php?loadpage=newidea.php&id=3198 Feb 07 16:33:19 so i get sued for patent violation if i hold the neo upside down? Feb 07 16:34:06 Morgreet: I think Xen only provides virtualization, not machine emulation. Feb 07 16:34:09 the neo that doesn't have a keyboard? :] Feb 07 16:35:00 Ooh, $1.99 domain registrations at yahoo Feb 07 16:35:40 loufoque: yes, you'd still need the arch emulator, but I think think there's a qemu for arm, no? Feb 07 16:35:49 wtf, 40% said this upside-down has potential as a patent?? Feb 07 16:36:03 buz: patents aren't meant to be taken seriously. Feb 07 16:36:13 buz: most of them are too ridiculous Feb 07 16:36:42 Morgreet: what can Xen add on top of qemu? Feb 07 16:37:03 Some time in the future, people will look back on patenting like they now look at slavery. Feb 07 16:38:31 * aloril2 agrees Feb 07 16:38:36 yes, I do :] Feb 07 16:39:36 unless we lose Feb 07 16:40:18 loufoque: not sure about Xen, but what KVM would add is the ability to control and interact with the resources of your emulation using ordinary unix tools. That's just from reading the blurb, not personal experience. My full-virt box hasn't arrived yet. ;-) Feb 07 16:40:23 depends, some patents are actually good things. Feb 07 16:40:37 Some are insane. Feb 07 16:40:52 software patents are especially bad. Feb 07 16:40:56 I recently came across one that patented using a gasket of foam rubber on a SAW display. Feb 07 16:41:15 If you're looking for a gasket material, you try stuff around hte shop. Feb 07 16:41:30 the third or fourth one will be foam rubber. Feb 07 16:42:25 (SAW is a method of touchscreen reading that involves no thin plastic overlay on the screen like resistive ones. And can use scratch-resistant glass. Feb 07 16:42:36 loufoque: no patent is good unless the holder is actually building and selling an item based on it. That seems to hold for 0.000000000001% of patents these days. Patents should expire the instant that the holder stops manufacturing the item, otherwise they just prevent progress. Feb 07 16:43:04 more and more will be software in future, especially with 3D printers and later with nanotechnology Feb 07 16:43:52 The concept of an idea "belonging" to someone is just insane. Feb 07 16:44:00 3D printers? What are those things? Feb 07 16:44:48 loufoque: they're mechanisms that build up a hardware item by applying successive layers. Feb 07 16:45:16 Very experimental atm. Feb 07 16:46:45 you mean they sculpt the item? Feb 07 16:46:50 Not really experimental. Feb 07 16:46:53 Just niche. Feb 07 16:46:55 No. Feb 07 16:47:24 Imagine printing out on a laser printer a thousand sheets, each with a different slice of a 3d object on it. Feb 07 16:47:39 Now, remove the 'white' bits, and you ahve a solid object. Feb 07 16:48:52 The fun bit is making it so that it can print structural/useful materials, rather than just an object with more or less the right shape. Feb 07 16:50:12 such a waste of paper Feb 07 16:50:17 lol Feb 07 16:51:21 counter Feb 07 16:51:21 4 days 12:36:16 (4.525 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.525 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.525 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 16:52:39 * leventhal kills his lunch break thinking of stupid domains to reg for cheap on yahoo Feb 07 17:02:59 loufoque: you can build 3D printer for about $2400 IIRC: it squirts material layer by layer instead of using laser: less expensive and less accurate Feb 07 17:03:50 Wikipedia 3D_printer or something like that has links Feb 07 17:04:35 Does anyone know where the standard "vt7" is configured as the vt for X11? Feb 07 17:05:14 surely it just uses the first free vt? Feb 07 17:05:53 Could be. Lemme check if 5 and 6 already have ttys on them Feb 07 17:06:48 Yes they do, so you're probably right about that. Cheers! Feb 07 17:07:18 I believe you can play with VT numbers with e.g. gdm, but I've no idea how well it works. Feb 07 17:07:42 Morgreet, /etc/inittab Feb 07 17:07:44 etc/inittab Feb 07 17:08:08 X generally grabs the first available one Feb 07 17:08:11 What I'm trying to do is run another X11 server. The vt choice is not the main problem, I'n sure ;-) Feb 07 17:08:15 Yeah Feb 07 17:08:17 No Feb 07 17:08:27 startx -- :2 Feb 07 17:08:27 usually works Feb 07 17:08:42 Starts it on the next free VT Feb 07 17:08:53 Funny, I tried :1, as it said :0 was used. Trying :2, hehe Feb 07 17:09:04 It's not VT that. Feb 07 17:09:17 :2/:1 is the X server number Feb 07 17:09:22 It can be on any free VT. Feb 07 17:11:25 I'm not sure server number is the right term. Feb 07 17:12:00 That worked swell, thanks Speed. Feb 07 17:12:31 :) Feb 07 17:13:10 Now I can just switch to matchbox and pretend I'm a PDA ;-) Feb 07 17:13:23 Without mucking up the main system Feb 07 17:16:44 Xnest can be handy too Feb 07 17:19:37 bah. i just wasted my entire lunch break thinking of a stupid domain name to register, and couldn't. Feb 07 17:19:43 everything i want is taken Feb 07 17:20:35 I lucked out and was able to grab my handle Feb 07 17:20:53 Three? years ago, I did a test. Feb 07 17:21:08 leventhal.info and .biz are taken.. Feb 07 17:21:08 I looked up [a-z][a-z][a-z][a-z] Feb 07 17:21:13 I mean available, others are taken Feb 07 17:21:19 About 50 were not registered. Feb 07 17:21:22 (.com) Feb 07 17:21:27 SE: I'm not surprised in the least Feb 07 17:21:44 Anything that is in the dictionary auctions well Feb 07 17:21:49 anything random gets used by spammers Feb 07 17:22:42 I mailed a couple of vendors - xkym and thinks like of parkers. Most wated $400 or so. Feb 07 17:34:28 is any openmoko-devel mailing list moderator around ? :) Feb 07 17:39:03 Eblis: LaF0rge is the moderator. Not sure if mickey|bbl also can adjust things. But what is your problem? Feb 07 17:41:10 i sent an email to openmono-devel without subscribing first Feb 07 17:41:29 the mail is currently awaiting approval Feb 07 17:41:52 and i was wondering if i should cancel it and send another one or await for someone to approve it Feb 07 17:44:11 any suggestion ? :) Feb 07 17:45:14 Eblis: I would send it again. The worst thing that could happen is that both mails would appear. Feb 07 17:45:28 yeah, i was trying to avoid that :) Feb 07 17:45:30 ok, thanks Feb 07 17:46:39 Moderate ml is sometimes a pain. All this SPAM. Not a good chance to filter out the mails you really need to moderate. Feb 07 17:48:56 Hi stefan_schmidt Feb 07 17:49:01 I hate moderating mls. Feb 07 17:49:32 hi Elrond Feb 07 17:51:26 hmm, weird ... i still got the approval bounce but now i'm subscribed to the list Feb 07 17:51:43 Eblis: Right from address? Feb 07 17:51:51 shouldn't the mail have gone through directly, is there another step involved ? Feb 07 17:53:47 Elrond: If you're subscribed and wrote with the right from address it should go directly on the ml. Feb 07 17:54:16 i need to get some sleep :D Feb 07 17:54:21 found the problem Feb 07 17:55:59 heh Feb 07 17:56:22 /stefan_schmidt/s/Elrond/Eblis/ Feb 07 17:56:30 ;o) Feb 07 17:56:48 counter Feb 07 17:56:48 4 days 11:30:49 (4.480 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.480 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.480 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 07 17:57:00 yeah, again tab-completion fuckup. sorry Feb 07 17:59:13 aaaah, better Feb 07 17:59:20 the problem: stupid user :) Feb 07 19:48:38 LaF0rge: ping. Feb 07 19:51:01 btw, how many phase 0 devs will there be? any number on that? (just curious) Feb 07 19:59:10 50 or 100 Feb 07 20:03:06 koen|gprs_: that's more than i hoped for. great! Feb 07 20:40:58 http://www.aximsite.com/articles/link.php?id=372 can be interesting ide Feb 07 20:40:59 a Feb 07 22:07:40 http://www.appscout.com/2007/02/appscout_giveaway_golden_joost.php Feb 07 22:11:15 "New York to Ban iPods While Crossing Street?" -- Slashdot headline ;-))) Feb 07 22:12:55 Morgreet - *lol* Feb 07 22:15:02 And the story after it .... "Republicans in the U.S. House of Representatives announced yesterday legislation to force ISPs to keep track of what their users are doing. It's part of the Republicans 'law and order agenda,'" Feb 07 22:16:48 Politicians will probably rejoice once more mobiles have GPS in them. After all, what better weapon in the War Against Terror than having a full track record of every person's whereabouts ... Feb 07 22:18:46 When will they get, that real terrorists will use proper crypto and the ISP wont be able to even notice? Feb 07 22:20:18 Well that would only matter if they were interested in terrorists. They're not, that's just the excuse. The real power trip is controlling the population, and getting tons of money for doing it. Feb 07 22:21:14 Right. Feb 07 22:21:56 Democrats FTW! Feb 07 22:21:57 We need some nice crypto features on the neo. ;) Feb 07 22:22:26 AES-looped SD cards and files sound nice. Feb 07 22:22:43 Well put yourself in their shoes. Our taxes could either go towards repairing potholes, or they could go into pure contractor profit. No contest really. Feb 07 22:22:44 s/looped/dm-crypt/ Feb 07 22:23:06 LaF0rge has already reported that dm-crypt is standard. Feb 07 22:23:15 Or that! Feb 07 22:23:30 Morgreet - You're right. :) Feb 07 22:23:31 Hmm, the E6 sounds like a really nice replacement for my E680. Feb 07 22:23:43 hi guys Feb 07 22:23:47 Hi Feb 07 22:26:18 fortunetely, an open source phone can't be tracked Feb 07 22:26:56 loufoque - Well, at least the gps not. But the gsm. Feb 07 22:27:26 Any phone can be tracked ... the cells can report their signal levels for triangulation. Feb 07 22:31:23 Right. Feb 07 22:31:39 Not signal levels only, time differences. Feb 07 22:31:47 Would be fun, if we can get the signal stength data from the gsm module. ;) Feb 07 22:32:03 Indeed. Feb 07 22:32:14 But what would you use that data for? Feb 07 22:32:38 It could be useful when you've got a marginal signal. Feb 07 22:33:12 Trying to work out where peak signal is when you're presented with the sum of all signals from various gsm towers is hard. Feb 07 22:33:43 If it had per-tower bars, that might be easier. Feb 07 22:33:58 Oh yes, time differences would provide a hugely more accurate fix, if cells can coordinate on a given cellphone's transmissions. Erk, didn't think of that. Feb 07 22:34:42 Also - modern cell towers can AIUI split by orientation. Feb 07 22:34:42 Hmm, if we can change the sent power, we can reduce it, so that only one tower can get us. ;o) Feb 07 22:34:56 So they can work multiple phones on the same frequency in different directions. Feb 07 22:34:57 "AIUI"? Feb 07 22:35:02 but isn't it better to have many towers? Feb 07 22:35:23 Faulty towers! Feb 07 22:35:33 Sure - however optimising for best signal, in marginal conditions was what I meant. Feb 07 22:35:38 As I Understand It. Feb 07 22:35:52 wm_eddie - If you want to do a phone call: Yes. If you just walk around and want to know, when someone calls you: one should suffice. ;) Feb 07 22:36:25 SpeedEvil: But remember cell phones are usually moving. Feb 07 22:36:47 There are apps where they are not - much. Feb 07 22:36:48 and 95% of cell phone towers aren't omnidirectional. Feb 07 22:36:56 Elrond: far less power is needed for just listening in to a cellphone's framing (all that's needed for gathering timing data) than to actually communicate with it. Feb 07 22:36:59 For example, trying to get a signal in a building. Feb 07 22:37:35 However, you have to be able to detect the phones signal and demodulate it to make sure you are getting the right phone. Feb 07 22:38:15 Also, in most environments, you can't listen for faint phones as other phones stomp on the signal. Feb 07 22:38:44 GSM is just TDMA right? Feb 07 22:38:52 Basically. Feb 07 22:39:06 * wm_eddie only really knows CDMA :-/ Feb 07 22:39:20 However, the time is divided according to the towers point of view. Feb 07 22:39:31 As opposed to DMCA ... ;-) Feb 07 22:39:47 So if you are not colocated with the tower, phones can stomp on each others signal, though the tower does not getg that. Feb 07 22:42:29 If you really went to town on cellphone tracking though, you could get the primary master cell to deliver sync data to adjacent cells, so that alll they'd need to do is apply a correlator to the bitstream --- the distance to cellphone pops out automatically!!! Feb 07 22:42:53 Some places do this already for location services. Feb 07 22:43:14 They need to know the time accurately to talk to each other. Feb 07 22:44:16 And it's a service to sell to customers. Feb 07 22:45:23 That's slightly different though, it's inter-cell sync. I mean the primary giving adjacent cells not its own sync, but the incoming cellphone's signal sync. Feb 07 22:45:54 Makes triangulation pretty simple Feb 07 22:46:03 Not really. Feb 07 22:46:07 There is no need for that. Feb 07 22:46:25 All the towers have GPS, with time outputs. Feb 07 22:46:41 Giving few nanosecond accuracies. Feb 07 22:46:49 At least between nearby towers. Feb 07 22:47:08 That's a given, obviously their own position and inter-cell sync is known. Feb 07 22:47:24 hah. Feb 07 22:47:32 Not in the UK Feb 07 22:47:58 Some operators are famous for now knowing exactly where their towers are Feb 07 22:48:02 *not Feb 07 22:48:06 lol Feb 07 22:48:23 I read that as not knowing where their towels are ... Feb 07 22:48:29 ;) Feb 07 22:48:45 Not telling customers where towers are so nutters can campaign to close them does not equal not knowing. Feb 07 22:49:01 OMG RADIATION! Feb 07 22:51:05 That aside, there are still some towers that have accurate coords that aren't correct Feb 07 22:51:28 I can believe that. Feb 07 22:51:52 as for the pico-cells... Feb 07 22:52:00 I doubt their locations are ever accurately recorded Feb 07 22:52:05 nearest building, perhaps Feb 07 22:52:25 It's not nutty to be concerned about radiation. What's nutty is to overstate or understate the extent of its effect. Feb 07 23:01:03 tihi, we can use the neo to track down the tower positions! ;) Feb 07 23:01:48 Nice one, turns the issue on its head, hehe. Feb 07 23:03:34 Well, cell detection has some potential. Feb 07 23:04:13 Though a lot of that is more or less made irrelevant by the addition of a GPS chip. Feb 07 23:13:06 Well, using the gps and cell strength, we should be able to guess up the towers. ;) Feb 07 23:22:09 GPS can be turned off by world events at great distance. Feb 07 23:22:29 Cell towers, probably only locally. Feb 07 23:23:22 i'm starting to buy bluetooth accesspoints and plant them everywhere i hang out Feb 07 23:23:45 free, encrypted calls ;) Feb 07 23:31:33 Night people. Feb 07 23:31:39 G'night Feb 07 23:32:11 LittleIdiot: if you have a network that more or less covers say, your home, it's an interesting way to turn your cellphone into a VOIP handset. Feb 07 23:34:01 i thought about 3 other locations i'll put some. after all this is way cheaper than subscribing to a cellphone flatrate plan Feb 07 23:34:22 ...actually pays after <6 months Feb 07 23:34:28 Annoying that the range will only be 10 metres or so. Feb 07 23:34:34 Yeah Feb 07 23:34:42 uhm, isn't it class 1? Feb 07 23:34:50 AIUI, no. Feb 07 23:35:10 Or at least the general consensus last time was probably not. Feb 07 23:35:29 Probably wise to wait a few days for reports. Feb 07 23:35:49 Weekish till phones hit people. Feb 08 00:05:36 counter Feb 08 00:05:37 4 days 05:21:59 (4.224 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, 4 days (32.224 days) for devices for anybody (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, 4 days (216.224 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info Feb 08 00:15:01 so, on the 11th, they send some of you all a phone. when can the rest of us get one? Feb 08 00:15:09 a month on. Feb 08 00:15:14 For $350 Feb 08 00:15:30 Then 6 months on is the general public. Feb 08 00:15:40 yeah I knew the price, I'd never heard the date Feb 08 00:15:53 The price for the general release is AIUI not set. Feb 08 00:15:56 All I know is I want Emacs on my phone :) Feb 08 00:16:11 and it should be possible, damnit :) Feb 08 00:16:13 Emacs on a device with no keyboard... Feb 08 00:16:21 SpeedEvil, sure. why not? Feb 08 00:16:28 No reason. Feb 08 00:16:52 SpeedEvil, there's toolbar, there's mouse, there's gestures Feb 08 00:17:06 :) Feb 08 00:18:05 i can't imagine using vi on my phone... this is... weird.. but a dream for sure Feb 08 00:18:19 vi on the phone isn't so bad Feb 08 00:18:53 it's not the editor I want, it's Gnus and BBDB and Planner and Diary Feb 08 00:18:57 Though gprs has lousy latency so it is best to send packets line by line rather than character by character.. usually ssh compression is good enough Feb 08 00:18:58 hacking away and compiling stuff while sitting in a train - just with my phone. this will be truely a perfect world Feb 08 00:19:12 Prolly want a keyboard. Feb 08 00:19:29 And a 1.8" screen is a little small. Feb 08 00:19:40 for text? That's my big question Feb 08 00:19:54 Trust me, keyboard won't be needed... screen may be an issue... maybe Feb 08 00:20:08 2.8 Feb 08 00:20:17 Yeah I know the size... Feb 08 00:20:22 and the resolution Feb 08 00:20:27 bring a big ass usb keyboard wherever you go Feb 08 00:20:31 that doesn't tell me how well it'll work :) Feb 08 00:20:54 I mean, if there's no good way to look at text, why get the phone at all? Feb 08 00:21:05 Take a 480*640 window on your screen. Now back off till you get to the equivalent of 300DPI Feb 08 00:21:26 80*25 sort of works for me at 20cm range. Feb 08 00:21:38 (experiments with paper) Feb 08 00:21:47 can't see a thing... but that's because i really need to get new glasses i think... Feb 08 00:29:00 * SpeedEvil ponders using a corner of the screen as a thumbstick-alike. Feb 08 00:29:54 thumbstick? Feb 08 00:30:19 Like a little joystick, to move mouse pointer. Feb 08 00:30:56 for when you want to point to more things than fingers alone will comfortably do Feb 08 00:31:29 how would you do that with a screen? Feb 08 00:32:00 A rotary dial that emulates a classic phone would be particularly nice. Feb 08 00:32:20 SuN, how old are you? Feb 08 00:32:34 24. why? :) Feb 08 00:32:42 Because I'm 28 and I hardly remember those Feb 08 00:32:48 Imagine a 1.5*1.5cm patch in the corner of the screen. Feb 08 00:33:08 Now, move your finger to one edge of this patch, and the pointer moves that way. Feb 08 00:33:11 ah Feb 08 00:33:18 and keeps moving till you center it. Feb 08 00:33:22 or leave it alone. Feb 08 00:33:24 I probably haven't seen one in ten years, but I clearly remember them. Feb 08 00:33:26 that's an interesting idea, but when your whole screen can be touched, why do you want that? Feb 08 00:33:29 tap for click where it is. Feb 08 00:33:47 Because if tapping with finger, the finger covers _lots_ of stuff. Feb 08 00:34:17 well, there's a lot to be said for this kind of experimentation Feb 08 00:53:40 emacsen: that type of touchpad/joystick could be useful for games etc when you don't want to block the view with your fingers. Feb 08 00:54:02 like an analog/d-pad Feb 08 01:02:28 Well, if they put 3 accelerometers in v2, we can use it as a Wiimote ;-) Feb 08 01:02:39 eep Feb 08 01:03:45 Wave a light sabre at your enemy, then blast them with GSM radiation .... Feb 08 01:03:47 :P Feb 08 01:04:03 3 accels and IR camera Feb 08 01:04:41 Hey, it's been a while since the last v2 wishlist, time for another. :P Feb 08 01:04:45 You can't get orientation from accell - reliably. Feb 08 01:05:01 wifi, 3 accels, camera ... what else? Feb 08 01:05:14 Powered USB Feb 08 01:05:39 3G or EDGE Feb 08 01:06:16 A tiny bit of 3D graphics acceleration, like on the Axim. Feb 08 01:06:57 bottle opener Feb 08 01:07:19 direct brain interface Feb 08 01:07:26 A Hall device compass, so that it knows orientation without movement. Feb 08 01:07:26 You need gyros, to do much interesting 'wave it around' stuff. Feb 08 01:07:39 3 chip gyros are not horribly expensive or large. Feb 08 01:08:17 http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ideas/DistanceMeasuring?highlight=%28OpenMokoIdeasWithAccelerometer%29 Feb 08 01:08:22 None of those things are expensive, apart from 3G Feb 08 01:08:43 3G would be nice. Feb 08 01:08:46 I want a thumbstick - ideally analog. Feb 08 01:09:00 also cool but not really useful at all: easily controllable LEDs down the side Feb 08 01:09:00 Oh yeah, good point, many more buttons. Feb 08 01:09:26 I mentioned an OLED display with buttons on top. Feb 08 01:09:28 cause this sort of stuff is fun and i've occasionally wanted a big bright sign to stick out in a crowd: http://wearcam.org/ece385/pushbroom2006/imgp2362c.jpg Feb 08 01:09:30 On the mailing list. Feb 08 01:09:50 Oh, and FIC to produce a credit-card size Bluetooth keyboard, at half the price of the Freedom one. Feb 08 01:09:55 Oh - the wave it around. Feb 08 01:09:57 Yeah. Feb 08 01:10:50 And I want the next version to go from resistive - SAW touchscreen, with a diamond coated glass. Feb 08 01:11:36 Which isn't actually _horribly_ expensive - based on prices of grocery scanner windows. Feb 08 01:12:24 Is 3/11 still the date for the expected developer launch? Feb 08 01:16:19 That's it for the wishlist? Eww Feb 08 01:17:23 Oh, I'm changing "wifi" to "wifi with mesh" Feb 08 01:17:28 Gotta keep it realistic. Feb 08 01:17:55 Wind-up charger. Feb 08 01:17:56 So far very cheap ... we're not being adventurous enough :P Feb 08 01:18:16 Though that's more a seperate item. Feb 08 01:18:36 zigbee! Feb 08 01:18:52 Accessories are fine too, like the CC keyboard Feb 08 01:19:23 In fact, FIC would probably make more money from accessories than the phone :P Feb 08 01:19:23 Biometric finger scanner - 256*4 - with fast update rate so you can use it like a optical mouse in reverse with finger. Feb 08 01:20:52 Clint: zigbee makes more sense as an accessory, with interface to wifi or Bluetooth. After all, it makes no sense to take a zigbee device out with you. Feb 08 01:21:12 well, i wasn't serious Feb 08 01:21:17 lol Feb 08 01:21:34 Zigbee driver however makes sense. Feb 08 01:21:41 To turn on and off zigbee switches Feb 08 01:21:44 Yeah Feb 08 01:21:58 Or read sensors. Feb 08 01:22:55 Being able to clone RF tags'd be nice. Feb 08 01:24:17 http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_a1200-1429.php - I want a flip-cover like this. But with the microphone able to act as a thumbstick even with the device closed. Feb 08 01:24:49 a good amount of storage Feb 08 01:25:24 Yeah - at least several cubic feet in a TARDIS compartment. Feb 08 01:25:36 Isn't 2/4G enough? Feb 08 01:25:56 Presumably more in a few years. Feb 08 01:26:32 hi all, without ruffling feathers -- does anyone have the neo1973 hardware yet? or is development being done in qemu exclusively at this point? Feb 08 01:26:37 yea thats a good amount Feb 08 01:26:43 People have hardware. Feb 08 01:26:47 Tehy cannot talk of it. Feb 08 01:27:09 The hardware will be widespread in around a week Feb 08 01:27:11 why? isn't this open? Feb 08 01:27:18 and lots of poeple will be reporting on it. Feb 08 01:27:19 oh, for public relations Feb 08 01:27:28 the source opens in 4 days. Feb 08 01:27:38 You can buy one in 5 weeks or so. Feb 08 01:27:57 great -- i look forward to coding on an open platform... it's about time! Feb 08 01:28:35 Yeah - it's so deeply annoying. There are hardware platforms I'd rather have. - the neo has limits. Feb 08 01:28:41 But if you can't get to them, ... Feb 08 01:32:53 I wonder if you can implement an iButton/1-wire interface through some creative use of USB pins ... ie. no additional socket. Feb 08 01:35:36 Almost certainly not. Feb 08 01:35:56 The 1-wire interface requires some quite specific drive conditions. Feb 08 01:36:22 And unless the USB output has been designed to do it - which would not be hard - it won't. Feb 08 01:36:52 A 1-wire low-drive bus would probably be easy to bit-bang given a free GPIO though. Feb 08 01:39:31 Yeah, but those conditions on the 1-wire change slowly. And I did say "creative", ie. looking for USB controls that might provide something suitable, just like DSR/DCD/DTR are sometimes used creatively in ways not intended. Feb 08 01:41:42 You're probably right that it's not possible though, simply because USB is an intricate protocol. Feb 08 01:42:19 It's not quite that - it's more that there has to be provision to drive the pin without the USB hardware getting in the way - whihc it will. Feb 08 01:43:14 There is a quite cheap USB-1wire chip anyway. Feb 08 01:45:17 I used to pine for an iButton crypto ring, hehe. Feb 08 01:48:46 Annoyingly, they are hard to build into stuff. Feb 08 01:48:54 You can't get the crypto chips seperately. Feb 08 01:49:38 I was wanting to build one into a flashlight. Feb 08 01:50:14 I seem to recall that the crypto ring was under export control. Feb 08 01:50:36 Diddn't see mention of it in the datasheets. Feb 08 01:50:41 It's nothing really special. Feb 08 01:51:00 It is handy in one package. Feb 08 01:52:17 And the cheaper iButtons lost out bigtime to the vastly cheaper RFID tags Feb 08 01:52:28 Yeah. Feb 08 01:52:41 Though few tags actually have reasonable crypto. Feb 08 01:52:50 Fewer still specified crypto. Feb 08 01:53:26 And the number with specified good crypto that are small and cheap is exactly 0 IIRC Feb 08 02:01:07 yeah of course the big thing is crypto on the phone itself Feb 08 02:01:23 if nothing else, to other owners of the same thing **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 08 02:59:58 2007