**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Feb 11 02:59:57 2007 Feb 11 03:03:18 counter Feb 11 03:03:18 a day 02:23:56 (1.100 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month, a day (29.100 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months, a day (213.100 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (214) Feb 11 03:03:24 wow..1 day left Feb 11 03:15:34 If anyone is in LA - nslu2-linux is exhibiting at SCALE (http://www.socallinuxexpo.org/scale5x) Feb 11 03:15:43 (LA = Los Angeles) Feb 11 03:16:29 Booth #62. We're holding a Birds of a Feather session right now, and we mentioned OpenMoko :-) Feb 11 03:17:52 I want a NCALE :P Feb 11 05:27:30 counter Feb 11 05:27:31 23:59:43 (1.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (29.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (213.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (215) Feb 11 05:27:45 nicely timed Feb 11 05:29:19 if I was with PC, then it might have been exactly to second ;-) Feb 11 05:29:28 counter Feb 11 05:29:28 23:57:45 (0.998 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.998 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.998 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (216) Feb 11 05:35:24 counter has been called quite often yesterday Feb 11 05:39:54 there should be a counter for counter Feb 11 05:43:13 16 times Feb 11 05:43:45 there is, I'm surprised nobody has mentioned it yet ;-) Feb 11 05:45:04 that counter is starting to get on my nerves Feb 11 05:45:17 /ignore aloril!*@* Feb 11 05:47:21 counter works privately too though most call it publicly Feb 11 06:02:20 the counter could output a lot less text... Feb 11 06:02:54 so it looks like i need to be up early tommorow as well Feb 11 06:04:27 main function should be an easy way to answer newbies, that's why its so verbose Feb 11 06:22:18 hopefully counter is correct and thus it will get shorter in a day ;-) Feb 11 06:27:27 alternatively "counter" could reply privately with short message and "counter?" would be long newbie reply Feb 11 06:55:42 counter Feb 11 06:55:42 22:31:31 (0.939 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.939 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.939 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (217) Feb 11 07:42:26 hmm, when did the core team email change to contrib ? :) Feb 11 07:46:30 hmm Feb 11 07:47:43 the web server says it was modified on Friday, 26 January 2007 6:14:37 AM Feb 11 07:48:08 aww Feb 11 07:48:13 i didn't check the email in a while Feb 11 07:48:52 and the Mono/portable .net mail i sent was for coreteam@ Feb 11 07:49:02 should i have sent it at contrib@ ... ? Feb 11 07:55:31 no ideea ? :) Feb 11 07:57:49 can't hurt sending it to both. Feb 11 07:58:18 do you think i should send it now ? Feb 11 08:42:31 counter Feb 11 08:42:31 20:44:41 (0.864 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.864 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.864 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (218) Feb 11 10:31:26 countdown Feb 11 10:31:43 .counter Feb 11 10:31:48 counter Feb 11 10:31:48 18:55:24 (0.788 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.788 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.788 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (219) Feb 11 10:31:58 dottedmag, thx ;) Feb 11 10:32:04 :) Feb 11 10:49:51 counter Feb 11 10:49:52 18:37:20 (0.776 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.776 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.776 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (220) Feb 11 10:51:29 is that counter until its the 11th, or until the actual time when the source will be out? Feb 11 10:51:51 because it could really be up to a day out otherwise Feb 11 10:59:57 counter is up to 23:59:59.999... CST Feb 11 11:04:48 counter Feb 11 11:04:48 18:22:24 (0.766 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.766 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.766 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (221) Feb 11 11:43:07 counter Feb 11 11:43:08 17:44:04 (0.739 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.739 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.739 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (222) Feb 11 11:45:11 morning Feb 11 11:45:17 howdy Feb 11 11:45:17 still no open wiki? Feb 11 11:45:35 * Stephmw checks his stopwatch Feb 11 11:45:48 still at least 0.5day for global 11-ness Feb 11 11:46:33 counter Feb 11 11:46:33 17:40:39 (0.737 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.737 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.737 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (223) Feb 11 11:48:36 Excited is we! Feb 11 11:48:40 :P Feb 11 11:48:57 http://projects.openmoko.org/ is already online Feb 11 11:49:17 Was a week ago, but only had 4 projects. Feb 11 11:49:23 oh dear Feb 11 11:49:33 the java people are even more clueless than I thought Feb 11 11:49:50 "inux-openmoko" is their project name Feb 11 11:49:58 linux-openmoko* Feb 11 11:50:19 Hehe. Comes with the territory. Something to do with peer groups. Feb 11 11:53:01 You have to remember that they have this "Pure Java" religion which makes them completely oblivious to reality, so not surprised at the name. They might have called the project "Computing" too. ;-) Feb 11 11:53:35 The rest of the world doesn't exist ;-) Feb 11 11:53:49 right Feb 11 11:54:00 they also seem to be very good at not doing any usefull work Feb 11 11:54:08 that name needs moderation Feb 11 11:54:12 Yeah Feb 11 11:54:15 java-openmoko would be fine Feb 11 11:54:25 Aye Feb 11 11:54:32 java people == committee Feb 11 11:54:41 ... and I'm as much of a java-nut as it comes... but that's stupid Feb 11 11:55:09 koen: Sun gives the illusion with the JCP that committees actually work Feb 11 11:55:17 koen: which is a whole load of bollocks Feb 11 11:55:28 right Feb 11 11:55:42 JCP is rule by closed-door politics Feb 11 11:55:50 * Stephmw rants and raves Feb 11 11:55:50 anyway, the project should be named gnu-linux-openmoko ... (rwhitby ducks) Feb 11 11:55:51 * koen still hasn't seen an update for the j2me OE recipes Feb 11 11:56:17 koen: and I so wish I was allowed to help on that one :( Feb 11 11:56:25 rwhitby: hahaha Feb 11 11:56:28 lol Feb 11 11:57:18 gnu-linux-openmoko-maybe-i-should-add-java-here-somewhere-too Feb 11 11:59:23 It's a wierd community. "Interoperability" with other languages seems to mean rewriting them in Java, rather than interfacing with them. Very odd. Feb 11 12:00:03 Morgaine: that's java's fault really Feb 11 12:00:18 Morgaine: sharing resources across the java/native boundary is a hassle Feb 11 12:00:29 Morgaine: cross-language locks are a nightmare Feb 11 12:00:48 Morgaine: the GCJ guys have the right idea there... don't use JNI Feb 11 12:01:03 Morgaine: their CNI is much, much better Feb 11 12:01:09 It's only a hassle because they don't allow tidy interfaces to be defined. Engineering-wise, it would be trvial. It's just a VM after all. Feb 11 12:01:29 right, see CNI Feb 11 12:03:08 *ahem* Feb 11 12:03:16 anyway... are we there yet? Feb 11 12:03:48 I really loved the language during its early days. I had to leave the community though, because it turned into a religion instead of an engineering tool. My language agnosticism was treated as heresy. :-) Feb 11 12:04:01 Hmmm, What's the foobar project? ;) Feb 11 12:05:08 Morgaine: what are you into these days? other than moko? Feb 11 12:06:29 Anything and everything, from parallelism to languages to graphics. Currently just started playing with OpenGL in Lua. Or maybe the right answer is: "nothing". :-) Perhaps I'm looking for a nice project. Feb 11 12:06:45 Elrond: if you mean channel, I have been testing counter there ;-) Feb 11 12:07:43 Elrond: it's a test of GForge Feb 11 12:07:44 Elrond: note the project admins Feb 11 12:07:44 * koen mails the devel list Feb 11 12:07:56 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000298.html Feb 11 12:09:00 Stephmw: I'll probably start OM work with the GPS side though. That could be dead handy, and OSM needs help and map data from us anyway. Feb 11 12:09:35 an easy to use editor for OSM would be neat Feb 11 12:10:16 I've not played with their standard one, is it bad? Feb 11 12:10:20 counter Feb 11 12:10:20 17:16:52 (0.720 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.720 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.720 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (225) Feb 11 12:10:34 it would be very nice to start a parallel IA pool project to help the other projects through making usable user interfaces Feb 11 12:10:39 Morgaine: stefan_schmidt found it cumbersome Feb 11 12:10:48 koen: k Feb 11 12:11:10 Stephmw: and having a clear HIG with examples to fall back to Feb 11 12:11:10 IA=>Information Architects Feb 11 12:11:19 Morgaine - It's a bit tricky to get used to. And it's .... java. Feb 11 12:11:31 Elrond: hehe Feb 11 12:11:41 koen: that could be more difficult, unless FIC lends us the start of one Feb 11 12:11:48 Morgaine - It surprisingly fast though. Feb 11 12:12:05 btw, for registered nicks this works too: /msg aloril counter Feb 11 12:12:22 Elrond: what's the underlying platform? Netbeans, Eclipse... JEdit? Feb 11 12:12:38 Stephmw: I'd hate to see to get openmoko KDE-ized Feb 11 12:12:46 koen: agreed! Feb 11 12:12:49 Stephmw: a zillion config options in weird places without sane defaults Feb 11 12:12:59 Stephmw - You mean, where it was developed? No idea. I'm an ignorant on java and just download the .jar and run it. ;) Feb 11 12:13:09 and on the other hand I'd hate it to be gnome-ified Feb 11 12:13:20 Elrond: can you do a screenie? Feb 11 12:13:34 Stephmw - Yeah. Feb 11 12:13:47 Stephmw - Give me a few secs. Feb 11 12:14:06 Java apps tend to be extremely bloaty without need. Not sure why they bring in so many dependencies, maybe some linker problem. Feb 11 12:14:53 Morgaine: I think the problem is always the Keyboard-Chair interface Feb 11 12:14:55 Stephmw - http://wiki.openstreetmap.org/index.php/Image:Josm-screenshot.png Feb 11 12:15:07 (not mine, just found it quickly) Feb 11 12:15:27 Elrond: custom jobbie Feb 11 12:16:12 Morgaine: it's easily doable to make small, tight Java software, but most java devs just don't seem to bother Feb 11 12:16:28 Morgaine: Sun's to blame, again Feb 11 12:16:44 Very bad for embedded Feb 11 12:17:05 * Stephmw points to his job... Feb 11 12:17:20 I write java core APIs for embedded :) Feb 11 12:17:24 mixed C/Java Feb 11 12:17:51 So, with experience, I can say it's doable. But there needs to be a will to do so. Feb 11 12:17:55 885842 Jan 13 03:30 josm-snapshot-194.jar Feb 11 12:18:09 ... but it needs java 1.5 (only works on sun java.) :-| Feb 11 12:18:27 ": mixed C/Java" --- heretic!!! ;-) Feb 11 12:18:49 s/!!!/11eleven/ ? ;o) Feb 11 12:19:56 Morgaine - There's also a qt editor in the workings, but it has its own issues. (and since it uses antiaaliasing, etc. it's even slower than the java one.) Feb 11 12:20:28 they should use jambi Feb 11 12:20:43 and a recent qt4 Feb 11 12:20:49 What's jambi? Feb 11 12:21:04 a java interface to qt4 iirc Feb 11 12:21:14 Ahh. Feb 11 12:21:32 Well, is qt4 available for windows? Feb 11 12:22:08 Why are editors being written in such low level languages? Just makes no sense to me. 95% should be in a higher level scripted language, and after profiling, the hot 5% should be replaced by C or C++. It's the only sane engineering way. Feb 11 12:23:10 Morgaine - There is a python one. But it feels unmainainted and crappy TO ME. YMMV. Feb 11 12:23:11 like FF? Feb 11 12:23:18 FF is a monster Feb 11 12:24:01 Elrond: sure, but that's just a reflection on that particular project. Feb 11 12:24:14 well... if you compare vim to eclipse, you see the difference. vim works perfectly for me Feb 11 12:24:41 ...and eclipse needs minutes to load and then eats all the ram... Feb 11 12:24:55 tihi. Feb 11 12:25:12 eclipse is awesome though, mainly for java Feb 11 12:25:14 thats why they should not be written in high level languages ;) Feb 11 12:25:20 if you're programming something else, then meh Feb 11 12:25:48 LittleIdiot - The idea is to mix and match. Our labatory control system is a C++ backend controling the real hardware. It interfaces by IPC with a python frontend. Feb 11 12:26:54 LittleIdiot: wrong. The problem stems in trying to write all parts of an app in just one language. If you combine a high level one and a low level one, you get the speed without the bloat. Feb 11 12:27:16 Right. Feb 11 12:27:33 * Stephmw launches eclipse Feb 11 12:27:57 but yet i don't see any advantage in abadoning vim ;) Feb 11 12:28:08 high level scripted languages allow nice things, like user scripts. Without even thinking. (out lab system is based on this. Any experiment is pure python. _any_) Feb 11 12:29:15 emerge -vp dev-util/eclipse-sdk | grep java | wc -l Feb 11 12:29:15 32 Feb 11 12:29:21 Typical :-) Feb 11 12:29:22 LittleIdiot: refactoring is Eclipse's forte. If you're happy doing such things with vim+grep+find+perl, it's all good Feb 11 12:29:55 Eclipse brings in 32 dependencies ... and that doesn't include all the ones I already have installed here :-) Feb 11 12:30:13 Anyone surprised? ;-) Feb 11 12:30:34 only 32? :P Feb 11 12:30:43 *g* Feb 11 12:30:57 Morgaine - josm "only" needs the base sun-java-1.5 Feb 11 12:31:14 Hehe. It's probably hundreds in total, but I have many Java things running already so lots of deps fulfilled on this box. Feb 11 12:32:38 * Kero is a Ruby guy and did a ruby+c project that needed performance. Feb 11 12:33:13 hmm, i'll see if eclipse can do refactoring for the asm code i wrote for an atmega chip ;) Feb 11 12:33:34 "Rename assembler instruction" ? Feb 11 12:34:14 trisoft hangs out in here, too? interesting =) Feb 11 12:34:24 "Use other register" ? Feb 11 12:34:58 Well we have almost a whole day to go, so here's food for language wars: Feb 11 12:35:05 | Execution times for recursive FP factorial(n) Feb 11 12:35:05 | Language / seconds for n=1 n=180 Feb 11 12:35:05 | --------------------------------------------- Feb 11 12:35:06 | C 0.001 0.013 Feb 11 12:35:06 | Lua 0.010 0.080 Feb 11 12:35:06 | Ocaml 0.130 0.180 Feb 11 12:35:07 | Perl 0.020 0.360 Feb 11 12:35:09 | Python 0.110 0.780 Feb 11 12:35:11 | Ruby 0.290 1.230 Feb 11 12:35:13 :P Feb 11 12:35:17 refactoring asm code? interesting -/- Feb 11 12:35:30 lua & python r0x :D Feb 11 12:35:52 only a factor 100 for n=180? reasonable code :) Feb 11 12:36:18 All languages rock, and all languages suck. They're just tools. You have to know when they're good, and not use them where they're less good. ;-) Feb 11 12:36:24 so which Ruby engine is that :P Feb 11 12:36:35 Morgaine: exactly Feb 11 12:37:35 Kero: it doesn't matter which. Nobody remotely sane reads anything into a benchmark, even less into a benchmark without source. It's only fun. ;-) Feb 11 12:37:50 woo, go lua. Feb 11 12:38:08 but that's a very specific problem domain Feb 11 12:38:20 Ycros, yep Feb 11 12:38:34 I know. I'm surprised ocaml doesn't do better. must be something 'wrong' with that code. Feb 11 12:39:19 Kero: I am surprised as well actually Feb 11 12:39:37 Ruby is one of the highest level languages around. It's a defensible argument that that coding 95% of an app in it, with the profiled 5% hot spots rewritten in C, will give you the best quality app. Feb 11 12:40:28 Morgaine: if only there were a better option than C :) Feb 11 12:40:37 D? Feb 11 12:40:47 It will also give you an unmaintainable app thanks to duck typing Feb 11 12:40:55 Morgaine, http://shootout.alioth.debian.org/ have benchmarks for most of languages with source codes Feb 11 12:40:58 Morgaine - I never playd with ruby, is it worth looking at it? Feb 11 12:41:00 Ocaml has a supremely good compiler. I'm not surprised it wins so many speed contests, and speed of design/coding contests too because it's so high level. Feb 11 12:41:07 Which also means the compiler can't verify the code as much, which arguably means lower quality Feb 11 12:41:20 Elrond: it's nearly as bad as python. Feb 11 12:41:20 benJIman: have you ever actually used Ruby such that duck typing hurt you? Feb 11 12:41:38 Morgaine: I've been meaning to properly try out O'Caml Feb 11 12:41:47 No, but it means it's unsuitable for large applications Feb 11 12:41:58 benJIman: and did you then ask ruby coders what they do to prevent it? Feb 11 12:42:14 well, to me, python is balance of the high level language, convenient & fast enough :) Feb 11 12:42:19 benJIman: why do you jump to that conclusion, if you never experienced the conclusion? Feb 11 12:42:24 They always fall into the trap of thinking that unit tests and documentation are a replacement Feb 11 12:42:31 I love python, it's my favorite all-round programming language Feb 11 12:42:43 benJIman: I just had a four-day course on testing. It's not a trap :) Feb 11 12:42:47 I have tried to make changes to large (50,000 line) python apps, it's not pretty Feb 11 12:43:02 Kero: they are both excellent things, but not a replacement for maintainable code Feb 11 12:43:27 code is as maintainable as you make it, heh Feb 11 12:43:38 Ycros: python and ruby can't be made maintanable Feb 11 12:43:39 tests make your code more maintanable, since they point out where things go wrong. Feb 11 12:43:42 BenC, well, it always depends on the people who design & code the app :) Feb 11 12:43:54 benJIman: yes they can Feb 11 12:44:05 But you can't see how to make changes when you have things passed from method to method with no way of knowing what they are without understanding the entire programme. Feb 11 12:44:16 You can't look at a single method and see how it can be changed Feb 11 12:44:24 Well C is barely higher level than assembler, in fact it is merely structured assembly code, so it's not surprising that it's fast. But coding a whole app in it is an extremely bad idea, unless it's a very trivial one. Feb 11 12:44:28 benJIman: you need to know the abstractions, not the entire program Feb 11 12:44:42 benJIman: you can handle 7 +/- 2 conceps in your brain Feb 11 12:44:46 Morgaine, woa :) Feb 11 12:44:53 any program exceeds that with orders of magnitude Feb 11 12:44:58 Kero: you have a method that takes an argument, passes it onto another method, which passes it onto another method, and so on, nowhere without reading the entire thing do you know what that actually is Feb 11 12:45:06 you don't know what operations can be performed upon it Feb 11 12:45:12 you don't know what making a change will break Feb 11 12:45:17 the compiler can't verify that it won't Feb 11 12:45:27 if you need the call-stack in your brain, the code is unmaintainable Feb 11 12:45:48 indeed, which python and ruby encourage Feb 11 12:45:48 refactor it. Feb 11 12:46:00 Strongly typed languages are self documenting, and can be verified further by the compiler Feb 11 12:46:10 int month = 145 Feb 11 12:46:40 month /= 3 Feb 11 12:46:50 benJIman, again, it's depends on what you're going to do Feb 11 12:47:05 We want to be moving towards languages that are clearer and can be verified more, not languages like python and ruby which are an order of magnitude worse than VB6 Feb 11 12:47:19 python is like VB where the programmer has used Variant for everything Feb 11 12:47:31 and now I've had enough of the flaming, benji Feb 11 12:47:41 I second Kero in that. The so-called Software Crisis is just a problem in complexity management ... basically a mismatch between our mental capabilities and the complexity of programs. It can't be overcome while people continue to code as they currently do. Feb 11 12:48:52 I give benJIman one thing: When rewriting large apps, static typing is helpful. Note my word choosing "helpful". Feb 11 12:49:09 It's about damage limitation Feb 11 12:49:23 again, it's about how you design & code it :p Feb 11 12:49:36 rd_ - Right. Feb 11 12:49:46 hey mickeyl, it's almost 12 Feb 2007 here ... Feb 11 12:49:47 I agree with rd_ Feb 11 12:49:57 Hehehe Feb 11 12:50:05 it's the 12th here Feb 11 12:50:29 Ycros: east coast? Feb 11 12:50:37 Leave poor Mickey alone, he hasn't had any sleep for a week I bet ;-) Feb 11 12:50:38 Sun, 11 Feb 2007 14:26:52 +0100 Feb 11 12:50:41 tests can also help you design :) hence test DRIVEN design Feb 11 12:51:22 Kero - Oh yeah. it helped my python refactoring things :) Feb 11 12:51:35 rwhitby: no fair flying out to Fiji to get the earliest 11 Feb :) Feb 11 12:51:47 Sun Feb 11 23:54:08 CST 2007 Feb 11 12:51:47 , here in Adelaide, Australia. Feb 11 12:52:05 so I expect source code in the next five minutes :-) Feb 11 12:52:22 rwhitby - ;)) Feb 11 12:52:50 * rwhitby knows that marketing dates are always 23:59 HST Feb 11 12:52:51 rwhitby, :D Feb 11 12:53:12 rwhitby: HST is the last one? Feb 11 12:53:20 I believe so. Feb 11 12:53:21 benJIman: no language is self-documenting. A program at most expresses the static properties of a computing system, but all the complexities are in the dynamics, and no language (except possibly an FSM table in some cases) documents system dynamics. Feb 11 12:53:43 Go any further west, and you hit Chatham Islands, which are GMT+13:45 at the moment. Feb 11 12:54:32 (Adelaide is GMT+10:30 at the moment) Feb 11 13:02:28 counter Feb 11 13:02:28 16:24:43 (0.684 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.684 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.684 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (226) Feb 11 13:04:22 * rwhitby grabs his username on projects.openmoko.org before someone else gets it ... Feb 11 13:04:56 * hrw already took it Feb 11 13:05:03 s/it/own Feb 11 13:05:12 ... and then goes to bed dreaming of a parcel arriving tomorrow ... Feb 11 13:05:35 oh, make that *today* (the 12th) Feb 11 13:06:17 It's lunchtime here, and so through the Adamsian dilation effect, it's the 13th here already. Feb 11 13:07:50 rwhitby: 12th Feb is a day when they will ship it... Feb 11 13:08:19 hrw: yeah, I know. But I can still dream, can't iI? Feb 11 13:08:42 sure Feb 11 13:08:55 * hrw dreams about getting black/grey version Feb 11 13:09:12 ooh yeah, I forgot about that part of the dream ... Feb 11 13:11:35 Which versions do exist? Feb 11 13:11:54 white/orange and black/grey Feb 11 13:12:03 second color is sides Feb 11 13:12:28 Ahh Feb 11 13:12:41 white is for northern hemisphere, and black is for southern. Feb 11 13:12:42 I hope you guys post pics as soon, as they arrive. ;) Feb 11 13:13:12 rwhitby: argh Feb 11 13:13:25 you betcha Feb 11 13:13:43 hrw, yo Feb 11 13:15:48 CoreDump|home: long time no see Feb 11 13:15:56 CoreDump|home: welcome Feb 11 13:16:00 indeed Feb 11 13:16:07 and thanks =) Feb 11 13:16:43 I'm looking at the awful task to setup OE from scratch again *cry* Feb 11 13:16:51 CoreDump|home: did you read last oz-devel mails? Feb 11 13:17:06 topic? Feb 11 13:17:38 3.5.5 - call for help Feb 11 13:18:09 I've seen it. But at the moment I really can't help :\ Feb 11 13:18:40 CoreDump|home: please send a mail in thread about. this will give as a sign too Feb 11 13:19:06 will do. I'm sorry about that, really. Feb 11 13:19:44 CoreDump|home: life Feb 11 13:20:18 indeed. And as we all know, life can be a bitch. It's been a total w**re to me lately, so to speak. Feb 11 13:21:08 anyway, I _so_ can't wait for the neo to arrive =D Feb 11 13:30:54 CoreDump|home: it only gets worse with time. ;-) Use the same solution that works for most of tech ... decouple from bad stuff. ;-) Feb 11 13:31:18 Morgaine, if it were that easy =) Feb 11 13:31:54 CoreDump|home: nothing's easy, I tend to be happy when it's merely possible ;-) Feb 11 13:32:17 hehe Feb 11 13:32:34 hihi Feb 11 13:32:51 And the "impossible" just makes it more of a challange. :-) Feb 11 13:33:24 hoho Feb 11 13:34:25 Is there a prize for the first non-core person to get their Neo? Feb 11 13:34:50 theres a video of sean on youtube. And he's got my phone 8) Feb 11 13:35:04 Morgaine: yes, a neo :) Feb 11 13:35:25 That was just the plastic case that he carries his sandwiches in. ;-) Feb 11 13:35:32 doh Feb 11 13:35:46 It looks almost large enough for that hehe *ducks* Feb 11 13:36:01 Who was the interviewer in that video btw? Looked familiar. Feb 11 13:36:35 * CoreDump|home dunnos Feb 11 13:36:55 Morgaine: RMS after a haircut? Feb 11 13:37:51 Wrong build. Reminded me more of the actor in Crossworlds Feb 11 13:38:31 Rutger Hauer Feb 11 13:38:45 http://imdb.com/name/nm0000442/ Feb 11 13:39:22 CoreDump|home: so soon we will get some polishing for neo? Feb 11 13:39:32 yep Feb 11 13:39:59 Core 'I will polish every system' Dump Feb 11 13:40:17 * CoreDump|home likes polish Feb 11 13:40:28 I like Polish Feb 11 13:40:36 hehe Feb 11 13:40:52 that pun was soo not intended ;) Feb 11 13:41:10 you know that dumb joke with the language? Feb 11 13:41:24 no? Feb 11 13:41:26 good here it is Feb 11 13:41:28 Polishman and Englishman meet Feb 11 13:41:29 nope Feb 11 13:41:34 Polishman: I need to polish my english Feb 11 13:41:41 Englishman: No, I think your english is polish enough Feb 11 13:41:43 * mickeyl chuckels Feb 11 13:41:46 :D Feb 11 13:41:46 lol Feb 11 13:41:48 LOL Feb 11 13:41:52 good one =) Feb 11 13:41:58 yes Feb 11 13:42:23 the question is.. 'Englishman: No, I think your english is polish enoug' or 'Englishman: No, I think your english is Polish enoug' ;D Feb 11 13:42:44 right Feb 11 13:42:46 ummm Feb 11 13:42:48 need to be capitalized Feb 11 13:42:55 both uppercase or not? Feb 11 13:43:16 LOL, it wasa perfectly good joke until hrw got hold of it ;-) Feb 11 13:43:24 hehe Feb 11 13:45:49 counter Feb 11 13:45:49 15:41:22 (0.654 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.654 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.654 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (227) Feb 11 13:47:32 Oh dear, I'll have to stay up to 6am for Big OM to chime ;-) Feb 11 13:49:11 Actually, that's not a bad idea ... somebody put a Big Ben chime on the OM site at zero hour. ;-) Feb 11 13:50:13 Morgaine: I know that joke for too long ;) Feb 11 13:50:13 :-) Feb 11 13:50:25 hrw: hehe Feb 11 14:08:41 "In 1975, on the eve of May Day, Czechoslovakian secret police dressed in chemical warfare suits sealed off the zoo in the small Czech town of Dv\u016fr Kr�lov� nad Labem and orchestrated the slaying of the zoo's entire population of forty-nine giraffes" Feb 11 14:08:51 Fact is much, much stranger than fiction/ Feb 11 14:09:11 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Giraffe_%28novel%29 Feb 11 14:16:07 giraffe allergy? Feb 11 14:26:57 Hehe Feb 11 14:28:55 Probably turf wars, someone high up in the police force or government thought someone needed a lesson. Feb 11 14:29:22 That's humans for you. Feb 11 14:30:49 The sooner we merge with our machines and leave humanity behind, the better. Feb 11 14:31:04 agreed Feb 11 14:31:35 Responding while AFK ... ESP? Feb 11 14:31:57 kinda =) Feb 11 14:32:01 Hehe Feb 11 14:34:16 I guess we can start with a Beowulf cluster belt of Neos .... ;-) Feb 11 14:34:39 not really, since nobody actually has one heh Feb 11 14:34:43 It's a pity the display doesn't go to the edge. Feb 11 14:34:50 Otherwise you could tile them. Feb 11 14:34:57 Hehe, nice idea. Feb 11 14:35:00 you could always strip the casing Feb 11 14:35:24 Hmmm ... worth adding to v2 spec? Reduced frame thickness? Feb 11 14:35:57 I wouldn't :] Feb 11 14:36:16 and another thing... I'd like the display glass to be seamless with the casing Feb 11 14:36:20 Doubt they could be tiled in both directions anyway, and a single strip won't help. Feb 11 14:37:07 Stephmw: you mean no raised frame lip? Reason? Feb 11 14:37:14 on the greenphone, p910, etc, the bevel with the screen makes a major dust trap Feb 11 14:37:21 Aha Feb 11 14:37:33 why don't we add all-lcd exterior to the spec while we're at it Feb 11 14:37:37 I want the display glass to be all over the face. Feb 11 14:37:38 greenphone...yuck Feb 11 14:37:43 then we can theme the casing Feb 11 14:37:47 CoreDump|afk: now, now Feb 11 14:37:54 And completely flat, with a SAW touchscreen that goes all over this face. Feb 11 14:38:02 oh my Feb 11 14:38:34 sounds like the iphone? SCNR Feb 11 14:38:35 mjr: Nokia did something kinda like that with their led-loaded, removable casings a few years back Feb 11 14:39:03 mjr: from the lack of more such devices, you can guess how it did Feb 11 14:39:29 It's doable to have a full-LCD front with minimal frame, would certainly stand out from other devices. Means losing even our two buttons though. Feb 11 14:39:51 mjr: hmmm, what _could_ be done, is an e-ink inner shell, covered with a clear protective layer Feb 11 14:40:07 Personally I think 2 buttons makes no sense. Either a full row, or none, I'd prefer. Feb 11 14:40:11 mjr: themeable, and low power Feb 11 14:41:07 mornin Feb 11 14:41:12