**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Feb 12 02:59:57 2007 Feb 12 03:20:45 counter Feb 12 03:20:46 02:06:22 (0.088 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.088 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.088 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (249) Feb 12 03:23:59 if mickey|zzZZzz is zzZZzz, then there aint gonna be no source in 2 hours time ... Feb 12 03:25:58 * wm_eddie wonders what Cell phone provider to switch to... Feb 12 03:26:09 s/cell phone/service/ Feb 12 03:32:59 is this free cellphone? Feb 12 03:33:16 free as in speech, yes. Feb 12 03:33:24 yay Feb 12 03:33:31 i'll be wating for the release Feb 12 04:00:28 Doh, the Neo comes out just as I'm going to be in Puerto Rico for spring break. Feb 12 04:00:56 I wonder how long it'll take to ship, if it's less than a week I can probably pick it up in PR. Feb 12 04:16:54 counter Feb 12 04:16:55 01:10:13 (0.049 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.049 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.049 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (250) Feb 12 04:17:06 soooo close Feb 12 04:18:47 * aloril hopes so Feb 12 04:19:54 is that 1 hour 10 min? Feb 12 04:19:57 counter Feb 12 04:19:57 01:07:10 (0.047 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.047 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.047 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (248) Feb 12 04:20:14 i am so waiting for this Feb 12 04:24:18 so where would the source be posted Feb 12 04:25:08 you guys all seem so sure the source will suddenly appear at 1 second into the 11th Feb 12 04:25:12 and will the open moko have an ambient light sensor Feb 12 04:25:47 Psi_ : you are right Feb 12 04:26:08 damn it. I hate windows it ALWAYS messes up my clock Feb 12 04:26:41 Psi_: not really, I just s/released/released any time/ in counter ;-) Feb 12 04:27:41 Mortimus: I guess rest of links mentioned http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-January/001586.html not working currently start working Feb 12 04:27:41 i hope it does appear in 1 hour, but im not holding my breath Feb 12 04:27:47 and announce mail and topic change Feb 12 04:28:14 press release did happen few minutes over 23:59:59.9999 CST, so there is precedent ;-) Feb 12 04:28:21 if they start taking preorders at the same time things are going to get very busy very quickly :P Feb 12 04:28:25 but press release is easier ;-) Feb 12 04:28:31 hehe Feb 12 04:31:26 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-12 Feb 12 04:31:38 so ... I guess there is still wiggle room of 6 hours Feb 12 04:33:40 guys, read from Feb 11 14:08:51 onwards in http://logs.nslu2-linux.org/livelogs/oe/oe.20070212.txt Feb 12 04:36:53 rwhitby: why Feb 12 04:37:46 k-y: it is as close to official word as you are going to get regarding source availability Feb 12 04:38:00 i see Feb 12 04:38:13 (until someone else official says something else) Feb 12 05:05:28 * aloril wonders if devices have shipped yet, its past of middle of day at Taiwan Feb 12 05:17:42 https://www.spreadshirt.net/shop.php?sid=211795 Feb 12 05:19:53 counter Feb 12 05:19:54 00:07:13 (0.005 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.005 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.005 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (250) Feb 12 05:25:21 *tick tick tick* Feb 12 05:26:22 counter Feb 12 05:26:22 00:00:45 (0.001 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.001 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.001 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (251) Feb 12 05:27:06 counter Feb 12 05:27:06 00:00:01 (0.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (252) Feb 12 05:27:08 counter Feb 12 05:27:08 released any time for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); 3 weeks, 6 days 23:59:59 (28.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 6 months, 3 weeks, 6 days (212.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (253) Feb 12 05:27:13 *ding*! Feb 12 05:27:24 i dont feel any different Feb 12 05:27:25 counter Feb 12 05:28:12 counter Feb 12 05:28:12 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:58:55 (0.249 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.249 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.249 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (255) Feb 12 05:28:23 Awww. Feb 12 05:28:32 lol Feb 12 05:28:44 first one was to CST ;-) Feb 12 05:29:01 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-12 Feb 12 05:29:32 anybody here, or just bots ;)? Feb 12 05:30:07 we're all bots on this bus Feb 12 05:30:08 domo arigato Feb 12 05:30:09 just us bot :) Feb 12 05:30:20 er bots Feb 12 05:30:26 ENd__: So you consider yourself a bot? :-) Feb 12 05:30:50 i'm a finite automaton Feb 12 05:30:57 ok Feb 12 05:31:20 alphaone: you have cleverly discovered an exploit in my wording Feb 12 05:31:47 so, will anyone answer my question, or is there a different channel someone could suggest for me to pose it in? Feb 12 05:33:06 what was your question? Feb 12 05:36:22 there are 50 hours of release window for 2007-02-11 -) Feb 12 05:37:32 ENd__: Most of the nicks in here are people, not bots Feb 12 05:38:19 alphaone: ok, so will you answer my question? is no one seeing it, maybe it's too long and the server is rejecting it? Feb 12 05:39:44 ENd__: I don't see your question in this channel. Feb 12 05:40:06 ENd__: first line I saw from you was: "2007-02-12 08:02:24 anybody here, or just bots ;)?" Feb 12 05:40:11 Well, other than whether I will answer yours.. Feb 12 05:40:20 ok, i'll break it up, i've sent it twice now, which would explain why no one has answered it Feb 12 05:40:31 Hey all, I have a question that relates to this operating system, as well as the hardware which it might run on; I have compiled my own kernel for linux a few times, and each time the process has pretty much been: add drivers for your buses, the components on them, and in general the protocols which you want the kernel to support. I have only ever done this via the menuconfig utility, meaning the drivers came prepackaged with the kernel. My Feb 12 05:40:36 pretty much everything is going to be heavily integrated on the circuit board), with an ARM processor, how do I set up the buses so I can access my components (Ex. WiFi module with integrated MAC, processor, over SPI bus) into the system (do i have to get bus masters for my SPI and other buses and place them on the AHB bus), and how do I in turn add support for communication with these components to the kernel at build time? As an aside, what Feb 12 05:40:36 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 12 05:40:39 see it now? Feb 12 05:42:00 yes, seems automatic reply didn't hit right this time ;-) Feb 12 05:43:29 (also seems your questions are cut: "... prepackaged with the kernel. M" and "... As an aside, wha" Feb 12 05:43:32 ) Feb 12 05:43:36 Hi all Feb 12 05:43:43 hi sureshkumar Feb 12 05:44:00 Can anyone let me know whether OpenMoko open Source code is released or not Feb 12 05:44:14 Hi aloril Feb 12 05:44:39 Any idea on the release of Source code Feb 12 05:44:43 counter Feb 12 05:44:43 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:42:24 (0.238 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.238 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.238 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (256) Feb 12 05:44:48 aloril: ugh, i'll just pastebin it Feb 12 05:44:52 not yet Feb 12 05:45:33 it was supposed to be released by 11th Feb 2007 Feb 12 05:45:43 http://rafb.net/p/9OGZ0n81.txt Feb 12 05:45:51 not sure I understand the question (and not sure I have enough kernel-fu to answer it) but as I understand it even SoCs tend to have normal-looking buses that happen to be entirely on-chip Feb 12 05:45:56 sureshkumar: there is still left some hours of 2007-02-11: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/UTC-12 Feb 12 05:45:57 ;-) Feb 12 05:46:28 ahh, you're ahead of me Feb 12 05:46:51 ENd__: the answer to your question is that you'll use OpenEmbedded and it will have preconfigured .config for the Neo device. Feb 12 05:47:06 ok Feb 12 05:47:46 I can understand that I am ahead of you, but is there any web address or link, where I can check whether it is released or not Feb 12 05:48:14 I am trying to open openmoko.org, but the link is not responding Feb 12 05:48:37 rwhitby: i'm not talking about neo1973, i'm talking about other devices, as a general question. assuming linux driver sources are available, and the device does not otherwise have preconfigured profiles/make files, what would it look like to configure such a device to detect devices on the native (on chip) AHB bus, Feb 12 05:49:00 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/ or http://openmoko.org/ maybe Feb 12 05:49:26 ENd__: why would you expect to get an answer to that question here? Feb 12 05:49:39 rwhitby: *not detect, but interact with soccuessfully at any rate. and more importantly, how do i configure devices which live on an spi bus whose bus master is on the ahb bus Feb 12 05:49:48 ENd__: #oe ? Feb 12 05:50:04 linux-arm-kernel mailing list perhaps Feb 12 05:50:09 rwhitby: i was under the impression openmoko was an os, not a hardware platform? Feb 12 05:50:25 (I kind of know the answer to that for bsd, but not for linux) Feb 12 05:50:40 ENd__: normally there is machine-specific setup code (i.e. look in arch/arm/mach-ixp4xx/nslu2-setup.c) which does things like that. Feb 12 05:51:10 Hey guys, can anyone tell me whether Openmoko had released their source code or not? If yes, from where can I download and if not, can you update me on the release news. Feb 12 05:51:21 counter Feb 12 05:51:21 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:35:46 (0.233 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.233 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.233 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (257) Feb 12 05:51:37 sureshkumar: AFAIC: not yet Feb 12 05:51:42 ENd__: openmoko is a software platform for mobile devices, yes. It runs on a linux kernel. How the kernel is configured is really up to the hardware device support in the kernel, not the OpenMoko software. Feb 12 05:52:28 rwhitby, aloril: fair enough, i'll take a look at the arch setup files you pointed me to, and ask around in #oe Feb 12 05:52:32 ty Feb 12 05:52:38 to put it another way, openmoko is a userland stack. Feb 12 05:53:00 (I imagine even a Linux kernel isn't a hard requirement; many kernels can run GPE/OpenEmbedded.) Feb 12 05:53:09 cjb: nod Feb 12 05:53:26 well, there would be some kernel patches for openmoko? Feb 12 05:53:31 there is no guarantee counter will be right this time either, but if not, then hard to say release is 2007-02-11 (unless you move away for some light hours or days and release from that point ;-) Feb 12 05:53:38 aloril: Any info on the messaging support available in OpenMoko? Feb 12 05:53:51 rd_: perhaps, but they would only be relevant for the hardware in the Neo, which isn't what we're talking about. Feb 12 05:54:51 aloril: Can you inform me the link to download the openmoko, once it is released? Feb 12 05:55:17 aloril: I am unable to access openmoko.org Feb 12 05:55:59 sureshkumar: I can load it, but it just says "Please stay tuned. This site will go public once the Neo1973 product is launched. Meanwhile we ask you to visit openmoko.com" Feb 12 05:56:43 sureshkumar: umm.. I would http://openmoko.org/ to change (or you can join here and look at topic, that probably changes too once release happens) Feb 12 05:57:29 sureshkumar: btw.. why are you so interested about messaging support in OpenMoko? Feb 12 05:57:51 counter Feb 12 05:57:52 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 05:29:15 (0.229 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.229 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.229 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (258) Feb 12 05:58:13 aloril: Can we expect the release by today? Also what is the current time at OpenMoko release centre. I am unable to understand the counter Feb 12 05:58:56 sureshkumar: The release has been delayed due to technical difficulties. Feb 12 05:59:07 How long exactly is anyones guess Feb 12 05:59:33 alphaone: how do we know when it is released? Feb 12 05:59:51 sureshkumar: counter shows remaining time until last time zone on earth changes day from 2007-02-11 to 2007-02-12 Feb 12 05:59:53 they are probably trying to run the webserver off a neo :P Feb 12 06:00:32 alphaone: Any link or web address to check the status of release? Feb 12 06:01:31 aloril: ok. That means we might had to wait at max for another 5 hours 28 minutes for the release to happen on 11th Feb 2007 Feb 12 06:01:50 sureshkumar: subscribe to https://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce Feb 12 06:02:13 sureshkumar: then you should get mail once source is released Feb 12 06:03:00 sureshkumar: Also the source will probably show up on www.openmoko.org or svn.openmoko.org will be unrestricted. Feb 12 06:03:26 Currently I check for a change in openmoko.org: Feb 12 06:03:28 while true; do wget -q -O test http://www.openmoko.org; diff index.html test >/dev/null; if [ $? -ne "0" ] ; then echo 15 > /proc/acpi/ibm/beep; fi; sleep 10; done Feb 12 06:03:30 :-) Feb 12 06:04:00 heh Feb 12 06:50:05 counter Feb 12 06:50:05 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 04:37:02 (0.192 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.192 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.192 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (259) Feb 12 06:59:44 Don't know if this link has already been posted, but it's a nice shirt anyway: http://www.totalueberwachung.de/blog/articles/2007/02/12/official-unofficial-openmoko-t-shirts Feb 12 07:03:03 morning Feb 12 07:03:08 :) Feb 12 07:06:32 counter Feb 12 07:06:33 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 04:20:34 (0.181 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.181 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.181 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (260) Feb 12 07:19:15 about GPRS and voice: can't do it at same time in Neo1973 (according to ML), but in my experience you can keep GPRS connection open all the time Feb 12 07:19:51 when voice call comes, GPRS just suspends and if voice call is enough short, then after it ends GPRS resumes and connection is still alive Feb 12 07:20:01 right Feb 12 07:20:21 if the cell tower is not too busy Feb 12 07:21:05 also I don't think drains battery that much (though I tend to use somewhat heavily phone, still usually charging once/day is enough) Feb 12 07:21:35 haven't tested how long just GPRS being on would allow, but most likely more than day (maybe several days?) Feb 12 07:22:16 I think if I haven't used phone much, even with GPRS being on its near full charge at end of day, but .. not sure Feb 12 07:22:51 maybe GPRS with little traffic is basically same power usage than waiting for GSM calls? Feb 12 07:23:52 (or in other words: put it near speakers and it will be quiet most of time ;-) Feb 12 07:24:01 examination of the 3gpp protocol specs for gprs/gsm would provide the answers :-) Feb 12 07:25:02 I hope that neo1973 will be able to really keep gprs session Feb 12 07:25:31 I have per each 500KB payments Feb 12 07:26:23 * koen wonders where the source is Feb 12 07:26:56 koen: //mickeyl-laptop/vaporware/openmoko/ ? Feb 12 07:30:00 isn't it at least 4 more hours away? Feb 12 07:30:59 * aloril can easily have >10 hours of GPRS connections on old phone Feb 12 07:31:17 aloril: I do not use gprs on current one Feb 12 07:31:38 good morning people... Feb 12 07:31:48 hey fluffs Feb 12 07:35:23 <_-InFeRnO-_> hello Feb 12 07:35:50 <_-InFeRnO-_> so was the src released or you are still waiting Feb 12 07:36:56 it seems we are still waiting Feb 12 07:37:08 <_-InFeRnO-_> pfft Feb 12 07:37:20 <_-InFeRnO-_> it should have been 2 hrs ago Feb 12 07:37:58 :( Feb 12 07:39:08 _-InFeRnO-_: in CST, but can still be 4 hours away in UCT-12 ;-) Feb 12 07:39:15 <_-InFeRnO-_> no Feb 12 07:39:26 <_-InFeRnO-_> people said that Feb 12 07:39:47 <_-InFeRnO-_> it would be avalaible a half day after 8 PM in BG Feb 12 07:49:48 counter Feb 12 07:49:48 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 03:37:18 (0.151 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.151 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.151 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (261) Feb 12 08:13:23 counter Feb 12 08:13:26 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 03:13:42 (0.135 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.135 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.135 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (262) Feb 12 08:20:11 still 401 everywhere :( Feb 12 08:20:51 still about 3 hours?!? Feb 12 08:23:37 i hope that i can see the source before I go to airport for a long flight :D Feb 12 08:26:09 "wow, a for loop" Feb 12 08:26:45 ok sorry Feb 12 08:26:53 that was not very nice of me *apologizes* Feb 12 08:54:40 <_-InFeRnO-_> still no source? Feb 12 08:55:22 nope Feb 12 08:55:34 you can check yourself by going to svn.openmoko.org Feb 12 08:55:43 3 days Feb 12 08:55:54 hey XorA Feb 12 08:57:29 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003165.html Feb 12 08:57:59 koen: a day ahead of yah :-D Feb 12 08:58:28 no phones before fosdem too Feb 12 08:59:30 hrw: I think you will see a few phones drifting about in FOSDEM Feb 12 09:00:07 * xkr47 reads Feb 12 09:00:16 I'm gonna need to postpone my LinuxSA session ... :-( Feb 12 09:00:18 XorA: to see != to test != to hack Feb 12 09:00:45 XorA: I wonder why that mail wasn't posted to announce or -devel Feb 12 09:00:56 ah,good call fron sean there Feb 12 09:01:35 so now I can hope that devs will get phone before 13 March. or on Pingwinaria we will talk about something which cannot be tested on hardware Feb 12 09:01:50 new i can tell mickey all the things hes done wrong before anyone's running it ;) Feb 12 09:02:13 hrw: Pingwinaria? Feb 12 09:02:14 koen, svn.openmoko.org couldnt access without user/password Feb 12 09:02:27 robtaylor: Polish Linux event in middle of March Feb 12 09:02:41 koen: the openmoko team have been sweating steel balls to get this far, give them some slack for forgetting a CC :-) Feb 12 09:02:55 hrw: oh, cool. yeah hope you get it by then :) Feb 12 09:03:06 XorA: no, it's about forgetting the developers Feb 12 09:04:21 koen: who would care about them... Feb 12 09:04:22 koen: not really. i just don't think Sean's had enough time to even notice there's a -devel list yet Feb 12 09:05:07 * XorA can assure you the developers are thought of, give people who are pulling 26 hour days a little chance to sleep Feb 12 09:05:43 I still don't get why the software has to wait 3 more days Feb 12 09:06:28 koen: forwarded to devel Feb 12 09:06:45 koen, yeah, if it's a live project, the sources can be change daily,there would be no different to release today or 3 days later Feb 12 09:06:46 koen: makeing sure it builds and the HOWTO's are done? Feb 12 09:06:51 hrw: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-devel/2007-February/000312.html Feb 12 09:07:10 robtaylor: it doesn't build and it won't build in 3 days at this rate Feb 12 09:07:10 * XorA didnt know there was an openmoko-devel list :-) Feb 12 09:07:11 i guess they need some code clean up before open it Feb 12 09:07:18 XorA, lol Feb 12 09:07:39 koen: michey would get a lot of stick and questions if there weren't hotos and it hadn't been tested building on a clean system Feb 12 09:08:02 koen: soft like soft.. they want to make it buildable more or less Feb 12 09:08:52 hrw: release it and *we* can fix it in less than 3 days Feb 12 09:08:52 but why no wiki at all? Feb 12 09:08:52 koen: Feb 12 09:08:52 koen: I'm busy with work Feb 12 09:08:52 less for the 2.6.20 dev is fine by me... present arrived from samsung Feb 12 09:08:52 koen: *you* can Feb 12 09:08:52 koen: other devices to support are more important now for me Feb 12 09:09:04 koen: when did you know mickeyl and LaForge to be anything less than perfectionists? Feb 12 09:09:04 koen: think about everyon else that would try and would come asking for help Feb 12 09:09:15 robtaylor: if I fix it I commit the fixes Feb 12 09:09:15 hi Mac Feb 12 09:09:15 hi Feb 12 09:09:19 robtaylor: that's how it works Feb 12 09:09:32 koen: i know, thats not the point i'm making Feb 12 09:09:49 koen, i agree Feb 12 09:09:51 robtaylor: if FIC doesn't trust us enough, that's a very bad sign Feb 12 09:10:02 koen: its not a matter of trust Feb 12 09:10:12 koen: its just a matter of being sensible Feb 12 09:10:42 koen: like, i want to test my pre-release of dbus-glib before i make it a release Feb 12 09:10:56 robtaylor: and what will you say when it doesn't build in 3 days? Feb 12 09:11:03 koen: trust me, FIC dont have any such opinion, its just with the workload, people need time to finalise, fix, clean and make presentable Feb 12 09:11:33 koen: and remeber mickeyl is also finalising his PHd at the same time Feb 12 09:11:39 counter Feb 12 09:11:40 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 02:15:26 (0.094 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.094 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.094 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (263) Feb 12 09:11:44 koen: it'll build, i'm prety sure. mickeyl would want it to be perfect Feb 12 09:11:53 aloril: you can change the counter :) Feb 12 09:11:57 XorA: the more reason to let *us* fix it for them Feb 12 09:11:59 koen: chill dude :) Feb 12 09:12:14 koen, yeah Feb 12 09:12:21 aloril: add week to source, month to phase0 phones, month to phase1 phones Feb 12 09:12:24 koen: get mickeyl to give you access then ;) Feb 12 09:12:35 if they feel that the workload is too much, they should better to open it ealier Feb 12 09:12:37 robtaylor: already tried Feb 12 09:12:51 XorA: mickeyl finalized PhD - he now rather prepare for defence Feb 12 09:12:51 its how opensource project going Feb 12 09:12:55 robtaylor: I offered to make it build against current .dev multiple times Feb 12 09:13:12 koen: and response was negative or nonexistant? Feb 12 09:13:26 robtaylor: "have to ask FIC" Feb 12 09:13:58 koen: well, but it this way, decisions take longer when there's a big company involved Feb 12 09:14:27 robtaylor: more than one month? Feb 12 09:14:39 koen: you've no idea how much pain the OSSO dept has had in nokia, just getting things past the legal guys Feb 12 09:15:02 robtaylor: don't start about maemo Feb 12 09:15:13 robtaylor: I've pretty much given up on that Feb 12 09:15:13 koen: i'vehad situations where there's been patches waiting in my local git tree for 2-3 months before i've been able to push them Feb 12 09:15:32 koen: and its not dues to bad intentions on anyone's part. Feb 12 09:16:04 koen: just big cos are hugely inefficient decision making machines Feb 12 09:17:12 robtaylor: we can only guess why they are delaying 3 days, since FIC gave no explanation Feb 12 09:17:41 koen: yeah. Howver i'm pretty impressed they're only delaying 3 days.. Feb 12 09:17:43 a broken jtag cable doesn't make gtk+ anymore slower Feb 12 09:18:08 maybe they're waiting for the integer pixops to work ;) Feb 12 09:18:15 koen: heh Feb 12 09:18:42 koen: is xan gonna work on that then? Feb 12 09:18:53 robtaylor: btw, dbus.fdo being down is a known problem? Feb 12 09:19:03 we really need a test for compaison Feb 12 09:19:05 hmm Feb 12 09:19:33 I had the idea to get dbus-glib 0.73 into OE before moko goes public Feb 12 09:20:05 wow. whole of fd.o.is down Feb 12 09:20:07 I suppose they want jtag for an unbricker. Feb 12 09:20:18 robtaylor: git.fdo seems to work Feb 12 09:20:30 koen: i can't even ssh in Feb 12 09:20:33 gitweb* Feb 12 09:20:34 oh Feb 12 09:20:38 gabe is down Feb 12 09:20:42 annarchy's up Feb 12 09:21:24 all of dbus is still hosted on gabe Feb 12 09:21:27 poo Feb 12 09:22:32 09:54 -!- Topic for #freedesktop: gabe is okay. please do not panic. return to your homes. Feb 12 09:22:41 heh Feb 12 09:23:10 ok guess i just wait. koen, i'll push a tarball out as soon as gabe is back Feb 12 09:31:36 * koen foresees another message in three days "sorry, no source till march" Feb 12 09:35:21 * koen goes out to find some chocolate to get his bloodsugar to a workable level Feb 12 09:37:54 * xkr47 wonders if he should wait with getting the phone in case they do new hardware revisions every month Feb 12 09:38:03 what does "Less than a 7% yield rate " refer to? Feb 12 09:38:06 koen: i really hope not, that would be a disaster for openmoko Feb 12 09:38:18 mhh so what is the good part of the announcement? Feb 12 09:38:28 sannes, yeah wondered the same Feb 12 09:38:42 sannes: less than 7% works Feb 12 09:38:45 buz: probably only the fact that it exist Feb 12 09:39:00 of the jtag connector Feb 12 09:39:17 * sannes looks up jtag Feb 12 09:39:26 robtaylor: I wouldn't be surprised if they did something like that Feb 12 09:40:09 koen: i would be Feb 12 09:41:12 mickey|zzZZzz: don't you dare make me wrong... ;) Feb 12 09:41:36 koen: less than 7% of the software or the hardware? :P Feb 12 09:41:41 oh, it's late again. :( Feb 12 09:42:09 sannes: yeild rate refers to hardware Feb 12 09:42:30 sannes: as in 7% of built devices work Feb 12 09:42:43 fdflllljojonas bebrlin jonas bevlllljonas berlin jonaw berlin Feb 12 09:42:56 xkr47: thats nice Feb 12 09:43:04 ouch, .. hm, what is a typical number for that? Feb 12 09:43:14 lol Feb 12 09:43:15 geez, the level of cynicism in here is overpowering .. Feb 12 09:43:16 * robtaylor hands xkr47 some sedatives Feb 12 09:43:28 poured some orange juice into my keyboard Feb 12 09:43:41 was testing it, accidentally in irc :D Feb 12 09:43:43 lol Feb 12 09:44:20 koen: dbus-glib-0.73 archives ready for distribution: Feb 12 09:51:13 !counter Feb 12 09:51:24 grmbl Feb 12 09:51:59 it's just 'counter' Feb 12 09:55:23 someone should probably link that latest mail from sean into the topic ;) Feb 12 09:55:45 CoreDump|afk: iirc only coreteam can Feb 12 09:56:23 no problem, just a suggestion. People will be asking "where's the source?!" all day long heh Feb 12 09:57:01 anyway, I appreciate the openness whith which FIC is handling the situation Feb 12 09:58:10 koen: there you got your answer ;) Feb 12 09:58:18 heh, chanserv doesn't like your new topic :) Feb 12 09:58:40 robtaylor: indeed Feb 12 09:58:52 hrw needs more power.. Feb 12 09:59:03 robtaylor: which begs the question what happens if the review is negative Feb 12 09:59:14 Aaargh. can't believe no-one at work has a spare pci-x capable motherboard :( Feb 12 09:59:49 koen: please, just relax... Feb 12 10:00:43 robtaylor: I am relaxed :) Feb 12 10:00:53 robtaylor: just thinking one step ahead :) Feb 12 10:00:58 yeah, you should see him when he's pissed off hehe Feb 12 10:01:43 crapping hell =) Feb 12 10:02:36 * CoreDump|afk looks at his locked-down-into-uselesness k700i *sigh* Feb 12 10:02:53 CoreDump|afk: atleast it exists and works Feb 12 10:03:01 * hrw has k750i Feb 12 10:03:47 hrw: it has several firmware bugs and the friendly folks from Sony Ericsson want 25 Euro to flash a new firmware wtf? Feb 12 10:03:53 !praise neo1973 Feb 12 10:03:55 * cdbot2 bows down to neo1973 and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 12 10:04:54 counter Feb 12 10:04:54 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 01:22:12 (0.057 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.057 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.057 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (264) Feb 12 10:04:57 * CoreDump|afk wonders if the neo ships with a matrix-type theme =D Feb 12 10:05:05 CoreDump|afk: k700 cant be flashed with SEUS? Feb 12 10:05:28 hrw: if you purchase the docking station for ~50 bucks, sure =) Feb 12 10:05:50 CoreDump|afk: k510i, k750i support flashing via usb cable Feb 12 10:06:34 not sure about the k700i, IIRC mickey|zzZZzz bought the docking station and unlocked his phone Feb 12 10:07:22 CoreDump|afk: k700i req station Feb 12 10:07:26 just checked on official site Feb 12 10:08:18 doesn't matter now =) It's so old, it is beginning to fall apart hehe Feb 12 10:09:28 looks like the big operators are going to hate the neo :\ No locking-down the phone w/ useless crap and forcing users to buy ringtones and stuff from their shops due to DRM Feb 12 10:09:32 CoreDump|afk: you can also buy serial cable for phone Feb 12 10:09:57 CoreDump|afk: none of the HTC phones are that locked down and they are popular in the UK Feb 12 10:10:19 i c Feb 12 10:10:48 XorA: don't tell the americanos :) Feb 12 10:10:55 counter Feb 12 10:10:56 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 01:16:10 (0.053 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.053 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.053 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (265) Feb 12 10:11:49 I hope they put a few "Free Your Phone" stickers into the box =) Feb 12 10:12:20 * koen hates national holidays Feb 12 10:12:45 the south of .nl is grinding to a halt and it seems asia as well Feb 12 10:12:51 yes, koen, that sucks Feb 12 10:13:26 what is grinding to a halt? :P Feb 12 10:13:37 the windmills Feb 12 10:13:41 * LuitvD didn't quite follow the conversation Feb 12 10:13:54 rofl Feb 12 10:14:07 LuitvD: it means all work is stopping Feb 12 10:14:26 all work on openmoko? :? Feb 12 10:14:31 below the big rivers everyone will the drinking lots of beer for 3 days Feb 12 10:14:36 counter Feb 12 10:14:36 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 01:12:30 (0.050 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-11); a month (28.050 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-11); 7 months (212.050 days) for mass market (2007-09-11): see topic for more info (266) Feb 12 10:14:45 I imagine chinese new year will be like that as well Feb 12 10:14:52 someone should update that counter :\ Feb 12 10:15:06 chinese new year is all fireworks Feb 12 10:15:18 aloril should run bot for counter - this way I could add it into ignore Feb 12 10:15:21 no, chinese new year is worse! Feb 12 10:15:43 lots of beers sure beats lots of learning for exam Feb 12 10:15:48 * koen opens a fortune cookie Feb 12 10:16:04 whats written in it? Feb 12 10:16:15 ... and reads : You'll get a Neo (sooner or later) Feb 12 10:16:45 "we want to show authority, in behaviour as well as appearance" Feb 12 10:16:58 uhm isnt posting yield data a big nono in most industries? Feb 12 10:17:18 buz: maybe for final products Feb 12 10:17:25 this is pre-production Feb 12 10:17:51 * koen remembers the yield number of Pentium Pro cpus Feb 12 10:18:55 mhh Feb 12 10:19:01 that samsung iphone thingy is winmobile Feb 12 10:19:58 http://www.mobile-review.com/exhibition/2007-3gsm-samsung-en.shtml Feb 12 10:20:05 thats what i want for neo v2 Feb 12 10:20:12 or rather the toshiba thing Feb 12 10:21:41 5 megapixels ... cameraphones are changing. ;-) They'll probably be limited only by lens size/quality soon. Feb 12 10:21:49 win mobile is horrid :( Feb 12 10:22:05 wm6? yay, easy to reverse engineer. only the keyboard on the f700 looks a bit cheap. Feb 12 10:22:23 buz: that u600 looks pretty neat Feb 12 10:22:25 BTW WTF is up with that video bounty for Neo1973, that will only pay out if you dont use a media player Feb 12 10:22:52 XorA: :) first to play a video with e2fsck gets paid Feb 12 10:23:21 Morgaine: there's a new type of cameralenses that's less then a millimeter high Feb 12 10:23:28 * XorA played video on Neo a few days ago Feb 12 10:23:47 LuitvD: the folding ones, yeah. Not in production though afaik Feb 12 10:23:54 not yet Feb 12 10:24:13 buz: that is indeed a nice phone... too bad it's win mobile Feb 12 10:25:07 hoo.. Nokia E90 looks nice, might be my next IRC phone Feb 12 10:25:18 http://europe.nokia.com/A4346040 Feb 12 10:25:19 is it true the neo will have a 640x480 pixel LCD? :| Feb 12 10:25:36 LuitvD: no, it will have a 480x640 display Feb 12 10:25:42 heheh Feb 12 10:25:45 okay, sorry :P Feb 12 10:26:05 600x800 would have been nice Feb 12 10:26:07 will openmoko support the rotation of the screen? Feb 12 10:26:26 most likely Feb 12 10:26:36 1920x1280 with a geforce processor would have been better ... Feb 12 10:26:37 raynet: 1024x1280 would have been absurd :P Feb 12 10:26:46 damn, beaten Feb 12 10:26:47 :P Feb 12 10:27:09 LuitvD: nope with vector based desktop it would matter how great the resolution is, it will just look better Feb 12 10:27:12 i reckon a slightly bigger phone would be good Feb 12 10:27:26 yeah but the battery life would've sucked Feb 12 10:27:28 but then, until i actually see the neo in my hand its hard to tell Feb 12 10:27:44 ofcourse reading a 8 pixel font on 5" screen with HDTV resolution might require a magnifying glass but atleast there would be accessories to sell Feb 12 10:27:53 raynet: i know, but the pixel size would be impossibly small... Feb 12 10:28:09 HD macro pr0n :-) Feb 12 10:28:13 heheheh Feb 12 10:28:30 The v1 physical design is odd, I don't understand it (the large round bits) --- it's harder to pack components into round areas, and the large hole in the bottom end makes it even harder. Large expanses of featureless plastic don't look so good either, so I'm puzzled by it. Feb 12 10:28:32 too bad the neo doesn't have that much storage... Feb 12 10:28:38 good morning Feb 12 10:28:42 can it do USB-host? :D Feb 12 10:28:49 LuitvD: well, i have used a 300DPI LCD and it beats normal 70-90DPI LCDs.. except with Windows because Windows doesnt know how to scale the desktop/fonts/whatnot to correct DPI Feb 12 10:29:23 * Morgaine wants a Phase 0 recipient to open v1 up and post pics. Feb 12 10:29:46 raynet: yes, but the current neo (480x640) is already 285DPI... 800x600 would be... 400dpi? 450? Feb 12 10:29:49 LuitvD - Yes, but unpowered. You need a power hub. Feb 12 10:29:58 Elrond: no I won't :) Feb 12 10:30:00 LuitvD: sure, but it doesnt matter Feb 12 10:30:17 LuitvD: if could be 1000000DPI and it would be just as easy to read.. Feb 12 10:30:35 raynet: invisibly small pixels would be nice, yes... but affordable? :P Feb 12 10:30:50 Eblin: made tiny change, I'll edit it more later (and probably move stuff to wiki too) to make it shorter Feb 12 10:30:58 Morgaine - It has too look cute for mum and dad to like it. ;) Feb 12 10:31:05 LuitvD: well, it isnt supposed to be free as in beer :) Feb 12 10:31:10 Anyway... Need food, be back in an hour. Feb 12 10:31:22 Elrond: my MP3 player (20 gb) is unpowered (needs a seperate power supply) :) Feb 12 10:32:09 that'd be great, watching movies on a Neo1973, with the storage on an MP3 player Feb 12 10:32:18 the neo case is VERY comfy in my hand Feb 12 10:32:32 Elrond: yeah, but v1 doesn't look cute, it looks like a large slab, hehe. Doesn't matter to us, we're buying it for openness, but for Phase 2, I think design matters ... they need to pay more attention to the exterior. Feb 12 10:32:46 XorA: how big/small are your hands? Feb 12 10:32:51 XorA: aww, stop that :P Now I want one too Feb 12 10:33:03 Morgaine: photos are in wiki Feb 12 10:33:08 Morgaine: but wiki is closed still Feb 12 10:33:13 Morgaine: no no.. i don't want it to be mainstream. it should only be for us :) Feb 12 10:33:14 mehh Feb 12 10:33:32 koen: not sure how to answer that one Feb 12 10:33:45 if I'd had the knowledge I'd write the drivers myself :) so that I could maybe get one for free... Feb 12 10:33:58 damn, I hate being a n00b at linux :P Feb 12 10:34:17 koen: you want to know size? Feb 12 10:34:19 * LuitvD is away: brb Feb 12 10:34:28 raynet: hehe. I would love the Neo to not have a Phase 2 for Mom+Dad, but be tailored physically to geek needs. Yes, I would happily pay more if it featured a lot of h/w geek goodness. Feb 12 10:35:22 Morgaine: fortunately it probably wont ever be for mom+dad phone. Feb 12 10:35:53 hrw: cool. I'm in no rush, I think its the right decision to delay a little until the problem is resolved. Feb 12 10:36:04 oh, what was the GPS chipset used in Openmoko? Feb 12 10:36:53 raynet: well, if it'll never be for Mom+Dad, then providing only 2 buttons, and a large expanse of featureless plastic makes no sense at all!!! Feb 12 10:37:20 Morgaine: humm.. so no softkeys? :) Feb 12 10:38:11 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:03:51) Feb 12 10:38:22 That's precisely what I'm saying ... the v1 physical design fell between two stools because of the Mom+Dad -- Yes/No??? -- dichotomy. Feb 12 10:38:36 hummm Feb 12 10:38:44 I hope v2 is designed with a specific target audience. Feb 12 10:39:02 Mom + Dad will love the Neo for its big screen an simple useablilty (hopefully)! Feb 12 10:39:02 raynet: GL hammerhead Feb 12 10:39:08 koen: ah, thanks Feb 12 10:39:13 Morgaine: I hope it's somewhat like that new samsung thing Feb 12 10:40:13 full keyboard would be nice Feb 12 10:40:26 LuitvD: yeah, that's a good compromise design because it's a mom+dad or iphone generation phone from the outside, but slide it out and the keyboard makes it a geek dream. Feb 12 10:41:01 it still beats on-screen keyboards or handwriting Feb 12 10:41:55 maybe I should try to get that broken HTC off my friend :P try to fix it, and put linux on it Feb 12 10:43:08 LuitvD: the Wizard? Feb 12 10:43:32 the wizard what? Feb 12 10:43:51 LuitvD: HTC wizard Feb 12 10:43:52 Puts on his hat? Feb 12 10:44:04 nooo, wrong, eww :P Feb 12 10:44:58 XorA: I don't have a clue... :P Feb 12 10:45:13 a quite old one, sold as the T-mobile MDA Vario Feb 12 10:45:24 that's an HTC phone right? Feb 12 10:45:46 HTC TyTn? possibly? Feb 12 10:45:52 LuitvD: thats the HTC Wizard Feb 12 10:46:07 LuitvD: linwizard.sf.net is the linux port for it Feb 12 10:46:20 lol, thanks Feb 12 10:46:32 * XorA has a Vario here Feb 12 10:46:50 working? Feb 12 10:47:19 one of my friends has a broken one, t-mobile said they couldn't fix it... must be a battery issue or something... Feb 12 10:47:30 I really want to try to fix it :P Feb 12 10:47:38 or just HAVE it for that matter Feb 12 10:47:46 LuitvD: Vario is my phone until Neo is released Feb 12 10:48:00 meh, want a Neo too... Feb 12 10:48:12 * LuitvD just wants everything Feb 12 10:50:21 until we get the neo, what are alternative phones that are open and run linux? Feb 12 10:51:05 tuxphone? :P Feb 12 10:51:18 DIY gumstix phone Feb 12 10:51:42 Am I right in thinking that because Neo will have full access to the ETSI GSM AT-command set at the UART, then it'll be more powerful than a PDA + Bluetooth phone as modem? Ie. the full ETSI command set isn't presented across a Bluetooth link? Feb 12 10:51:51 Not seen anyone comment on this before. Feb 12 10:56:51 Morgaine: i didn't think you talk AT commands when using DUN Feb 12 10:57:28 robtaylor: Don't mean in DUN, just using a Bluetooth SPP into the modem. Feb 12 10:58:30 Morgaine: ah, yeah. Well teh bluetooth spec says ETSI 07.07, what's implemented in most devices though.. who knows =) Feb 12 10:59:59 robtaylor: that does suggest the same level of flexibility from PDA+phone then, with the added advantage that the phone side can be treated as throw-away. Feb 12 11:00:25 Morgaine: well, indeed, i think that's nokia's take. Feb 12 11:00:39 Oh, I see, you mean 770/800 Feb 12 11:01:05 Morgaine: though the subset of AT commands that a bluetooth device *needs* to understand to be spec complient is actually quite small Feb 12 11:01:35 robtaylor: fair enough. Is it actually working out that in in practice though, is the question. 770 was not fully open as I recall. Feb 12 11:01:37 (see the table in chapter 4 of the DUN profile) Feb 12 11:02:12 Morgaine: well,on the 800 most of the infrastrcuture is open, but all the ui is closed Feb 12 11:02:56 its using bluez now for all the bluetooth stuff (N hired core bluez hackers, it seems) Feb 12 11:03:16 Marcel works on Maemo? Feb 12 11:03:59 Johan Hedberg does, i think Feb 12 11:05:14 I guess that's not the hockey player ... Feb 12 11:06:07 Ah, adding +bluez helped ;-) Feb 12 11:06:37 heh Feb 12 11:15:04 How does one provide input to a vt session on Neo, when X11 is down? Feb 12 11:18:03 Morgaine, :p .. should be some kind of console based virtual keyboard ? Feb 12 11:18:35 rd_: that's why I asked, as I know only of X11-based virtual keyboards ;-) Feb 12 11:18:36 lol Feb 12 11:18:41 * xkr47 would like to be able to use his keyboard connected to the pc through bluetooth or usb Feb 12 11:19:14 Morgaine: someone shoud write something that is similar to console-mouse services Feb 12 11:19:26 xkr47: I use ps/2 keyboard + ps/2 mouse via '2 x ps/2 -> usb' adapter Feb 12 11:19:35 LuitvD, yeah Feb 12 11:19:35 xkr47: Bus 002 Device 003: ID 0a81:0205 Chesen Electronics Corp. PS/2 Keyboard+Mouse Adapter Feb 12 11:19:37 yeah.. but while it's connected to the pc.. Feb 12 11:19:44 or maybe attach your external keyboard Feb 12 11:20:02 Well we can expect a Bluetooth keyboard to work out of the box on a vt, and indeed even a Bt mouse into gpm. But the question was for without external Bt hardware. Feb 12 11:20:04 or, if the Neo has IR, some keyboard like Palm devices Feb 12 11:20:14 hrw, one could always use a kvm of course :) Feb 12 11:20:53 xkr47: but linux aint linux without a simple bash terminal ;) Feb 12 11:21:01 for me... Feb 12 11:21:07 mm Feb 12 11:21:16 Indeed, the vt's have to work, independently. Just wondering how. Feb 12 11:21:58 well, 14 keys can surely fit on 640 pixels wide Feb 12 11:21:58 Morgaine: maybe even more importantly, how to switch terminals :P Feb 12 11:22:16 LuitvD: oh, I use ESP for that Feb 12 11:22:18 like switching from tty1 to xterm Feb 12 11:22:19 LuitvD, alt + f1 :) Feb 12 11:22:38 xkr47: alt + f1? I always use CTRL + ALT + f1 Feb 12 11:22:48 LuitvD, ctrl alt fx Feb 12 11:22:48 sure.. but the other way Feb 12 11:22:58 :P Feb 12 11:23:02 ctrl is only needed when in X Feb 12 11:23:17 xkr47, yep Feb 12 11:23:26 oeh, thanks for that... now I know Alt + F1 opens the menu :) Feb 12 11:23:27 and even then you can reconfigure X to bind the "VT_SWITCH" events to whatever key combos you like Feb 12 11:23:43 * LuitvD always tries shortcuts as soon as he sees them Feb 12 11:23:52 heh Feb 12 11:23:58 AFAICS, vt sessions are screwed unless a framebuffer-based virtual keyboard pops up when the session has no controlling terminal. Feb 12 11:24:00 alt f1 open will help page on xfce tho :D Feb 12 11:24:02 lately I read about something and it mentioned CTRL + ALT + Backspace :) Feb 12 11:24:10 alt-f1 opens a specific file in emacs in my setup :) Feb 12 11:24:14 that very nice one Feb 12 11:24:18 that was a * Feb 12 11:25:17 i read: "use CTRL + Alt + Backspace to restart your X server" Feb 12 11:25:25 and thought for a moment Feb 12 11:25:29 and tried XD Feb 12 11:26:02 and thought "ugh, stupid ... oh well... it does work ..." Feb 12 11:26:07 :) Feb 12 11:26:35 I'm very stupid with those things :P Feb 12 11:26:44 counter Feb 12 11:26:44 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 3 days 00:00:21 (3.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 3 days (31.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 3 days (215.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (267) Feb 12 11:26:47 :) Feb 12 11:26:50 21 secs Feb 12 11:26:53 nice aim Feb 12 11:26:54 :P Feb 12 11:26:57 Hi El ;-) Feb 12 11:26:59 forget about the counter Feb 12 11:27:03 counter Feb 12 11:27:04 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 3 days 00:00:01 (3.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 3 days (31.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 3 days (215.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (268) Feb 12 11:27:05 :) Feb 12 11:27:06 counter Feb 12 11:27:06 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 2 days 23:59:59 (3.000 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 2 days (31.000 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 2 days (215.000 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (269) Feb 12 11:27:08 :D Feb 12 11:27:08 wohoo Feb 12 11:27:15 3 days Feb 12 11:27:20 Huh, 3 days? Hmm. Feb 12 11:27:24 haha Feb 12 11:27:24 heheheh Feb 12 11:27:56 I vote that the counter be removed until the situation clears up. ;-) Feb 12 11:28:00 2 hours ago, those 3 days have not been in the counter. Feb 12 11:28:01 hahahah Feb 12 11:28:09 Elrond: i know Feb 12 11:28:11 but now it is :P Feb 12 11:28:46 Morgaine, second that Feb 12 11:28:54 oeh, the counter does know february has 28 days :P Feb 12 11:28:55 Morgaine - I showed the om.com/press/ pics to my mum. She loved it. ;) Feb 12 11:28:57 or it could send a private message Feb 12 11:29:01 no wait, no Feb 12 11:29:06 (a month, 2 days (31 days)) Feb 12 11:29:13 Elrond: Oh! That's encouraging ;-) Feb 12 11:30:29 xkr47: or just accept the 'counter' command in private messages Feb 12 11:30:35 like /msg aloril counter Feb 12 11:30:45 So except for the few buttons, I also like it as a affordable toy. :) Feb 12 11:30:56 LuitvD, yeah Feb 12 11:31:06 LuitvD - aloril accepts "msg counter" I hear. Feb 12 11:31:13 it does Feb 12 11:31:14 Elrond, yeah we need to have LEGO connectivity also :) Feb 12 11:31:25 imho the main problem with the neo1973 hardware is that the form factor is sort of in between two device classes Feb 12 11:31:25 Elrond, connect the LEGO cam to it etc ;) Feb 12 11:31:28 but it still accepts channel messages Feb 12 11:31:43 yes, currently needs to be registered, looking for what I need to do so unregistered can /msg too... Feb 12 11:31:57 that is, it's not quite small enough to be used comfortably with one hand Feb 12 11:32:10 Elrond: oh, I can justify anything at all on the basis of "Toy" ... but Neo1 actually pays for itself here just as a Synergy switcher ;-) Feb 12 11:32:14 aloril - There's a switch. Try "/msg nickserv help" Feb 12 11:32:41 but then again, it could be a bit bigger and still comfortable to hold in one hand Feb 12 11:32:53 jannu: lol Feb 12 11:34:00 so it's somewhere in between a mobile phone and a pda/web tablet/iphone Feb 12 11:34:38 Hmmm, that sounds like I could love it too. ;) Feb 12 11:34:53 so people who want a comfortably mobile phone won't buy it, because its too big Feb 12 11:35:07 Elrond: thanks, now unregistered accepted Feb 12 11:35:24 and people who want a pda/internet tablet won't buy it because the screen is too small Feb 12 11:35:29 jannu: have you tried holding one? Feb 12 11:35:37 Well, I have no time for fashion victims. The vast majority of "cool" phones today are actually unusably small. Feb 12 11:35:42 Elrond: also I will make counter much shorter, hopefully < 80 characters (and make "counter?" to be "answer newbie" -'button') Feb 12 11:36:05 jannu: the form factor is actually pretty good. you can thumb the display comfortably with one hand Feb 12 11:36:12 aloril - :-) Feb 12 11:36:23 aloril - Where's that 3 day info from? Feb 12 11:36:27 robtaylor: no. I haven't, but from previous experience i can say that anything wider than 50mm is too big Feb 12 11:36:57 jannu: well, i have small-medium sized hands, and it really is comfortable to use one-handed Feb 12 11:37:33 jannu: a Palm is 80mm wide, and it is most definitely not too big. 5 million sales say so. Feb 12 11:37:52 robtaylor: i suppose it depends on what you're used to Feb 12 11:38:10 Morgaine: afaik a palm is used with a stylus Feb 12 11:38:11 jannu: *shrug* i'm used to nokia series 40 phones Feb 12 11:38:42 Elrond: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html Feb 12 11:38:44 Morgaine: so it's not _used_ with just one hand Feb 12 11:39:20 says within 3 days for source (rest of message needs fixing, later..) Feb 12 11:39:26 robtaylor: me too. so maybe it's not that bad Feb 12 11:39:32 jannu: is that an argument for non-discrimination against the disabled? Because most people have 2 hands. Feb 12 11:39:43 jannu: yeah, you'll be pleasantly suprised.. Feb 12 11:40:00 Morgaine: yes, but most people don't use their phone with 2 hands Feb 12 11:40:09 Morgaine: for a reason Feb 12 11:40:15 jannu: so most people are nuts ;-) Feb 12 11:40:16 jannu: thumb is enough Feb 12 11:41:01 hrw: yes, exactly. hold in one hand and use with the same thumb Feb 12 11:41:22 Horses for courses. I believe in supporting the needs of people with one thumb as their only digit too ... but it should not dictate the design of a geek phone. Feb 12 11:42:10 counter Feb 12 11:42:10 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 2 days 23:44:56 (2.990 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 2 days (30.990 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 2 days (214.990 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (270) Feb 12 11:42:18 Morgaine: yes. maybe not a geek phone, but I'm sort of guessing that FIC would like to sell the hardware to normal people as well Feb 12 11:42:35 robtaylor: I have yet not fixed it (just for source) Feb 12 11:42:47 Morgaine: besides, even geeks deserve usable devices Feb 12 11:42:52 aloril: ah :) Feb 12 11:43:08 counter :- Feb 12 11:43:11 :-P Feb 12 11:43:13 counter Feb 12 11:43:14 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12): 2 days 23:43:51 (2.989 days) for source for *all* developers and devices for selected developers (2007-02-14); a month, 2 days (30.989 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-14); 7 months, 2 days (214.989 days) for mass market (2007-09-14): see topic for more info (271) Feb 12 11:44:13 jannu: there is some discussion about the audience actually. We were talking about it earlier, the fact that it's falling between two stools, designed as an open phone for techs but yet apparently with a Mom+Dad phase 2 ... there's a conflict of audience there. Feb 12 11:44:47 Morgaine: yep. that's what it looks like Feb 12 11:45:06 aloril: aren't the phones schedules for the end of the month and not in 3 days ? Feb 12 11:45:20 jannu: yes, even geeks deserve usable devices, rather than microscopic ones designed for amputees with a thumb as their only digit and no second hand. Feb 12 11:45:29 Eblis: yes, just haven't yet fixed it all yet (new one will be much shorter) Feb 12 11:45:40 * aloril will tell when its done ;-) Feb 12 11:46:02 Morgaine: well, i was mainly thinking about shaving a few mm off of the width and length of the phone Feb 12 11:46:03 7% yield must really suck. I can't imagine the frustration. Feb 12 11:46:11 I wonder what a normal yield on a production run is. Feb 12 11:46:19 We need a new label --- "thumbphone". Feb 12 11:46:35 Morgaine: and replacing the screen with a 3'' widescreen one Feb 12 11:46:40 late march ... hmm to be safe: 31 (counter not yet updated) Feb 12 11:47:07 late march for phones for anybody ? Feb 12 11:48:01 7% yield implies bad design, because you always design for decent yield, it's possibly the single most important design constraint. Feb 12 11:48:03 Morgaine: the thing is that form factors should be dictated first and foremost by human dimensions Feb 12 11:48:38 Eblis: see http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html Feb 12 11:48:40 jannu: indeed, and also based on a straw poll of the number of digits that most people have. Feb 12 11:49:05 Eblis: that mail has details for new schedule (but its more vague than previous one ;-) Feb 12 11:49:58 it is slightly sad that bluetooth has created many of these problems. :/ Feb 12 11:50:03 Morgaine: well, I'd like to see you holding the phone in one hand and using the touch screen with e.g. the index or ring finger of the same hand Feb 12 11:50:27 jannu: most people have two hands Feb 12 11:50:30 What's an "FPC"? Feb 12 11:50:55 Fic Powah Cable? Feb 12 11:50:56 Morgaine: yes, but most people also tend to have things to do, which means that the other hand isn't always free Feb 12 11:51:14 aloril: i read the email ... i was unsure what the 'late march' was for Feb 12 11:51:23 i thought maybe you set it for phase0 phones :) Feb 12 11:51:24 Morgaine: which means that for most people comfotable usage with one hand is a must Feb 12 11:52:00 jannu: I have nothing against thumbphones. But it's a fashion victim's phone, primarily. Feb 12 11:52:19 looking at nokia e90 and the toshiba thingy neo looks so 2005 Feb 12 11:52:49 jannu: one-handed operation is most definitely not a must. In fact, it's patently idiotic, except for a tiny fraction of fashion victims. Feb 12 11:52:52 I don't care for trendy stuff. It has to be usable. Feb 12 11:53:18 Morgaine: what? you mean that carrying a suitcase and using a phone at the same time is patently idiotic? Feb 12 11:53:47 jannu - It's forbidden by law. ;o) Feb 12 11:53:52 Morgaine: umm, what country do you live in?! Feb 12 11:54:03 Morgaine: or carrying groceries and using a phone? or opening a door and using a phone? Feb 12 11:54:38 only really l33t people text with two hands =) Feb 12 11:55:05 jannu: trying to operate your whole phone with just one thumb is the idiotic bit. There are plenty of other ways, and even one-button operation for answering is fine. But full operation of a complex device using just one thumb is really for idiots who shouldn't be loose on the street. Feb 12 11:55:35 Morgaine: i think everyone disagrees with you. Feb 12 11:55:37 Morgaine: you're kidding right? Feb 12 11:55:41 * robtaylor looks out of window Feb 12 11:55:48 yeah, everyone disagrees with you Feb 12 11:55:51 I don't disagree with Morgaine Feb 12 11:55:53 :)) Feb 12 11:56:08 I just usually can't use both my hands in the bus for my phone. Feb 12 11:56:10 Morgaine: besides complexity should only be dictated by what you do Feb 12 11:56:25 Morgaine: a mobile phone is not a complex device Feb 12 11:56:36 But a large touchscreen asks for holding the phone in one hand and using the pointing-fingerr to operate the thing. Feb 12 11:57:04 jannu - The Neo {is/will be} a complex device. Feb 12 11:57:06 jannu: recent phones have become more and more complex :) Feb 12 11:57:28 Morgaine: and by mobile phone i don't mean the device as a whole, i mean the use case of voice and text messaging Feb 12 11:57:52 jannu - Ahhh. Feb 12 11:58:14 jannu - s/text messaging/reading sms/ Feb 12 11:58:40 I think the one-thumb brigade is purposely misinterpreting me. I didn't say that you shouldn't be able to use a phone with just one digit, or even none -- eg. to answer an incoming call, or to place a call to a predefined place or two. But to constrain a whole PIM/PDA system to the needs of 1-thumbed people is utterly ridiculous. Feb 12 11:58:41 Elrond: yes. unfortunately for now Feb 12 11:59:40 Morgaine: no, of course design that constrains into one-handed usage sucks. i agree with you on that Feb 12 12:00:02 By all means make it partially usable in specific situations using a minimalist interface. But not base your entire device UI strategy on that! Feb 12 12:00:22 Yep! Feb 12 12:00:32 As long as I can answer and call with one hand I'm happy Feb 12 12:01:17 Answering should not be ambigous with rejecting. ;o) Feb 12 12:01:30 (I once rejected a call, because I mixed up left and right ;o) ) Feb 12 12:01:38 CM: aye, that's commonsense ... crumbs, even I answer calls while walking down the street. But that's quite different to designing a whole UI around 1 thumb, hehe. Feb 12 12:01:44 imho supporting both one-handed and two-handed usage is precisely where touchscreen input will be most useful Feb 12 12:01:59 Morgaine: Totally agree :) Feb 12 12:02:30 a phone could be designed so that it can comfortably be used with one hand in portrait position and with two hands in landscape position Feb 12 12:03:10 Which reminds me: Does Xorg support rotating? Feb 12 12:03:12 Morgaine: oh, in that sense, i agree Feb 12 12:03:34 e.g. text messaging in portrait position would be done with a traditional-like 12-button keypad Feb 12 12:03:58 and in portrait position with a pda-like qwerty-keyboard Feb 12 12:04:00 Morgaine: your inital staments were that 'one-handed operation is most definitely not a must. In fact, it's patently idiotic, except for a tiny fraction of fashion victims."' Feb 12 12:04:18 Morgaine: tht i certainly don't agree =) Feb 12 12:04:39 Elrond: yes Feb 12 12:05:13 Morgaine: though, i have to admit, that fact i can input an appointment on my nokia with onehand is still pretty useful Feb 12 12:05:47 robtaylor: fair enough, I wasn't specific enough. I meant "full device operation using only 1 thumb", ie. constraining the capabilities of the device by mandating 1-thumb operation, that would be madness. Feb 12 12:06:00 Morgaine: oh yeah Feb 12 12:06:16 Morgaine: as with all UI design, the 1st thing to do is look at usecases Feb 12 12:06:38 Morgaine: things you're likely to have to do at unexpected moments should probably be thumbable Feb 12 12:07:02 robtaylor: I'd say everything has to be thumbable Feb 12 12:07:26 robtaylor: hehe, well thing being FOSS, I think it might work differently: you work towards the use-case where you feel your personal itch ;-)) Feb 12 12:07:49 s/thing/this/ Feb 12 12:07:49 Morgaine meant: robtaylor: hehe, well this being FOSS, I think it might work differently: you work towards the use-case where you feel your personal itch ;-)) Feb 12 12:07:49 robtaylor: but some things can be designed also for stylus and multi-finger usage Feb 12 12:08:25 Morgaine: well, it all depends on who does what. see gnome HIG for an example Feb 12 12:08:33 imho the method used on the n800 is a step in the right direction Feb 12 12:08:44 hrw - Good. I hope to like the Neo i landscape mode. :) Feb 12 12:09:24 jannu: well, for example, you wont want to have spreadsheet editing thumbable Feb 12 12:09:38 jannu: that would make for a very unusable ui Feb 12 12:09:54 robtaylor: depends on screen size Feb 12 12:10:03 robtaylor: but yes, that would be pretty bad Feb 12 12:10:22 robtaylor: although, not necessarily. Feb 12 12:10:24 jannu: only depends on screen size if you can grow your thumb at will ;-))) Feb 12 12:11:10 if the ui was designed so that clicking a cell would open up a full screen thumb keyboard Feb 12 12:11:13 jannu: erll, you'd have to scale things up so much to be thumbable, that it'd be useless on a size of screen that's thumbable Feb 12 12:11:51 jannu: well, on the 770/N800, if you click with a thumb, you get a thumbboard Feb 12 12:12:05 if you click with a sylus, a keyboard Feb 12 12:12:08 robtaylor: yes, you'd see very few cells at a time Feb 12 12:12:14 which is the right idea, imo Feb 12 12:12:22 robtaylor: exactly Feb 12 12:12:31 robtaylor: that's cool. How does it detect area of contact? Feb 12 12:13:12 robtaylor: also, selecting small areas with a thumb can be made a lot easier with visual aids Feb 12 12:13:53 robtaylor: e.g. when you put your funger on a cell, the ui would open a popup next to your finger showing the contents of that cell Feb 12 12:14:34 robtaylor: so if it's not the cell you actually want, you could drag your finger until you get the right cell Feb 12 12:14:53 jannu: you edit spreadsheets while walking down streets and carrying a bag in the other hand? Feb 12 12:14:58 robtaylor: and then select it by releasing your finger Feb 12 12:15:21 Morgaine: no. actually i don't edit spreadsheets at all Feb 12 12:15:44 Morgaine: but the same method can be used e.g. for selecting input fields in websites Feb 12 12:16:41 Morgaine: i think its a 7-wire resistive Feb 12 12:16:44 jannu: well, it's a special use-case to do complex things with pinhole access. Feb 12 12:17:41 Morgaine: well, not really, because the same visual pop-up thing is more or less a must have for on-screen thumb keyboards as well Feb 12 12:18:34 jannu: I agree that it's the same problem. But you need to stop considering the whole OM system through the needs of your thumb. Feb 12 12:18:46 Morgaine: plus using a stylus with a mobile phone is a major no-no for the vast majority of people out there Feb 12 12:19:13 Morgaine: while using websites with input fields on a mobile phone isn't Feb 12 12:19:52 Morgaine: for example, i never ever use the stylus on the nokia n800 Feb 12 12:20:06 jannu: the majority of people out there don't buy a geek phone, which naturally provides an extremely large amount of complex functionality. Trying to fit it all into the needs of 1-thumbed operation is not sensible. Feb 12 12:22:19 Morgaine: i'm not saying that every single application has to be completely usable with one thumb. take sketching for example Feb 12 12:23:07 Morgaine: but with good design the vast majority of functions can be made comfortable to use with one hand Feb 12 12:23:26 I'm just looking for balance, and don't want to compromise Neo/OM functionality by operating through a 1-thumb pinhole interface. That's all. The more facilities that can be then mapped to 1-thumb, the better. But it's not the primary req in a tech phone --- it's tech functionality. Feb 12 12:24:40 A general mapping arrangement would be good. Feb 12 12:24:51 counter Feb 12 12:24:51 source: 3 days 23:02:14 (3.960 days); P0: 16.960; P1: 47.960; P2: 230.960 (272) Feb 12 12:25:01 (longer version has a bug, I'll update that later) Feb 12 12:25:01 !!!! Feb 12 12:25:15 Gratz aloril --- that's real nice compression :-) Feb 12 12:25:50 Morgaine: thanks, not very useful for answering newbies though ;-) Feb 12 12:25:55 True Feb 12 12:25:59 s/thanks/welcome/ Feb 12 12:26:00 aloril meant: Morgaine: welcome, not very useful for answering newbies though ;-) Feb 12 12:26:06 aloril - What's the 272? Feb 12 12:26:13 counter counter ;-) Feb 12 12:26:43 tihi. Feb 12 12:28:20 also, if you design with a stylus in mind, the phone needs a stylus holder Feb 12 12:28:42 jannu: just in case it sounded like I'm anti 1-thumb operation, I'm not --- I'll be using it myself too, extensively. I just don't want Neo UI to be hardwired to that as a constraint. 1-thumb is just an I/O mapping ... others might want to use a voice interface, for example. Feb 12 12:29:13 Morgaine: yes, of course. Feb 12 12:29:25 Morgaine: I've been mainly thinking about tactile input Feb 12 12:29:40 Morgaine: voice would be a whole other story Feb 12 12:30:09 Morgaine - I hope for landscape + stylus. :) Feb 12 12:31:07 A throat mike is very unobstrusive, and you can subvocalize a very large range of inputs. Feb 12 12:31:07 for tactile input i see four different usage patterns: one thumb, two thumbs, one hand and one stylus Feb 12 12:31:40 plus of course one thumb + one hand and one thumb + one stylus Feb 12 12:31:49 what would I have to do to get a Phase 0 phone? :P Feb 12 12:32:05 be really helpful? Feb 12 12:32:08 LuitvD: build tardis Feb 12 12:32:09 I see as a possible interesting one, one thumb on a slider, across the phone, and a finger curled round to tap to select it. Feb 12 12:32:17 LuitvD: you are late Feb 12 12:32:34 lol, somehow I knew that... Feb 12 12:32:38 :P Feb 12 12:32:45 Well, Unix is just an I/O multiplexer. ;-) So, many different types of input 'R'Us. ;-) Feb 12 12:32:55 Or offer large amounts of money. Feb 12 12:33:14 SpeedEvil: you mean a hardware slider on the side? Feb 12 12:33:16 I daresay that there are a few extras that might be had for $2K. Feb 12 12:33:18 No. Feb 12 12:33:27 counter Feb 12 12:33:28 source: 3 days 22:53:37 (3.954 days); P0: 16.954; P1: 47.954; P2: 230.954 (273) Feb 12 12:33:38 I mean use the screen as a slider with the thumb - on the bottom of the screen. Feb 12 12:33:50 Then tap somewhere else on screen, to select position. Feb 12 12:33:51 SpeedEvil: oh a scrollbar-thingie Feb 12 12:33:58 with another finger Feb 12 12:34:03 without moving thumb. Feb 12 12:34:17 No - this isn't multitouch, it's faking it though. Feb 12 12:34:51 SpeedEvil: I'm actually working on a mock-up of something like that Feb 12 12:35:30 SpeedEvil: but instead of a traditional scrollbar, i thought of using a scroll ribbon Feb 12 12:35:35 i find the side scroll wheel one of the most useful things on my phone :/ Feb 12 12:35:37 Yeah trying to remove thumb, and place it down in same place to click would be annoying. Feb 12 12:35:54 I'd really like a stick or two on the neo. Feb 12 12:37:00 SpeedEvil: exactly. plus scrollbars don't really work that well with small screens Feb 12 12:37:32 I'd really like the touch area to extend outside the LCD. Feb 12 12:38:23 SpeedEvil: what for? :S Feb 12 12:38:26 i think whoever designs it ultimately needs to keep a tight reign on the features, otherwise you'll have a too many cooks syndrome Feb 12 12:38:32 LuitvD: soft keys Feb 12 12:38:34 so that you don't cover the screen with fingers. Feb 12 12:38:44 I really want some more buttons I suppose. Feb 12 12:39:13 Agree. Feb 12 12:39:17 I suppose that in 3 months time - or so, someone is going to have to make input decisions that'll piss people off. Feb 12 12:39:39 users are always pissed off Feb 12 12:39:39 SpeedEvil: depending on where the external hardware port is, I could see a slimline clipon that works similarly to the p910 keyboard Feb 12 12:39:43 Yeah. Feb 12 12:39:51 I mean developers. Feb 12 12:39:55 most of the times because they don't read instructions Feb 12 12:40:18 As in "no, whistle-alphabet won't be a primary input method' Feb 12 12:40:29 heheheh Feb 12 12:40:44 that'd be really nice though Feb 12 12:40:49 Because at some point we've got to drag all of the apps to be released together in a sane UI. Feb 12 12:40:54 Core apps at least. Feb 12 12:40:59 just wistle at your phone, and it automatically dials Feb 12 12:41:26 imho hardware buttons are great as long as they don't mean that the screen is smaller or that phone is too big Feb 12 12:41:27 I mean specifying required functionality in all programs. Feb 12 12:41:41 shourt rm -rf at your phone and it will nicely execute :-) Feb 12 12:41:57 e.g. a number keypad is a definite no-no Feb 12 12:42:01 You are going to have to limit input modes in some cases. As they don't fit the modality of the program. Feb 12 12:42:47 But a program supporting only its own input method shouldn't get shipped. Feb 12 12:42:53 Unless it's really special. Feb 12 12:42:59 Wolf-whistle and it dials your GF Feb 12 12:43:11 i like the wheel as it allows for two handed usage, number pads are nice for input, unless you can make screen input quick and easy Feb 12 12:43:15 but something hardware buttons on the side for volume up + down and play/pause + next song would be really nice Feb 12 12:43:16 I was meaning more specific note = specific letter. Feb 12 12:43:21 Or number. Feb 12 12:43:31 As that makes 'speech recognition' trivial. Feb 12 12:43:41 For those with perfect pitch at least. Feb 12 12:43:42 input modes should just be an input dvice, so that it works universally Feb 12 12:44:03 whistle DTFM to dial Feb 12 12:44:16 That's physically impossible for humans AIUI. Feb 12 12:44:21 scrap the whistling, beatboxing Feb 12 12:44:53 AIUI? Feb 12 12:44:54 greghunt: i'd say the touchscreen will need some kind of tactile feedback in order to really replace keypads Feb 12 12:44:55 I'm unsure on how much input method separation makes sense. Feb 12 12:45:01 As I Uderstand It. Feb 12 12:45:06 ah.. Feb 12 12:45:13 Yes, of course you need it to some degree. Feb 12 12:45:13 Well, there was a guy who could pulse dial by whistling Feb 12 12:45:20 Oh, any mention of the power-related controls yet? Eg. goes into standby when one of the buttons is held down for a few secs, or what? Feb 12 12:45:57 one thing I'd definitely want is a colour coded click-wheel for selecting the profile Feb 12 12:45:58 But given that most of the app methods will need large screen areas, it may make sense to be able to specify preferred methods. Feb 12 12:46:15 s/app/input/ Feb 12 12:46:15 SpeedEvil meant: But given that most of the input methods will need large screen areas, it may make sense to be able to specify preferred methods. Feb 12 12:46:24 :) Feb 12 12:47:03 I would really like camera + IR illuminator. Feb 12 12:47:04 SpeedEvil: yep. And there will be a wide range of preferences there, as we see from this chat ;-) Feb 12 12:47:12 perv ;p Feb 12 12:47:14 For trying to do dasher. Feb 12 12:47:20 With eye-tracking. Feb 12 12:47:21 something like green=online/available, red=do-not-disturb, white=available, but silent, grey: do-not-disturb, silent and black=offline Feb 12 12:47:52 i find dasher rather slow Feb 12 12:48:03 I too - it's interesting though. Feb 12 12:48:52 I've only played with the java version. Feb 12 12:49:00 I need to update my system. Feb 12 12:49:05 GTK 1.2.0 Feb 12 12:49:30 Remember it learns, so once it knows your typical input, it gets a lot faster, and you can usually types whole words with a single stroke Feb 12 12:50:11 That's good - as I've got 10M of training text to feed it. Feb 12 12:50:19 Hehe Feb 12 12:50:26 * SpeedEvil has a usenet posting addiction. Feb 12 12:51:22 For example - on the required input methods. They will presumably cover up different areas of the screen. Feb 12 12:51:42 It would be nice if the app was sort-of-functional even with that bit of the screen covered. Feb 12 12:51:50 * koen likes the hardware keyboard input method Feb 12 12:51:58 yeah. Feb 12 12:52:26 soft keyboards suck - there is no physical response to where you've put your finger. Feb 12 12:52:51 * SpeedEvil has used a ZX81. Feb 12 12:52:55 It wasn't nice. Feb 12 12:53:18 Did that laser-projected virtual keyboard (a la Tenchi Muyo) actually work usefully? Feb 12 12:53:22 (Z80 based computer, smaller than a page of A4, with an 80? key membrane keyboard. Feb 12 12:53:31 SpeedEvil: exactly. without some sort of tactile feedback touchscreens will always suck Feb 12 12:53:32 _no_ feeling. Feb 12 12:53:44 Just flat plate. Feb 12 12:53:50 i liked my zx spectrum Feb 12 12:54:02 The spectrum was a different animal. Feb 12 12:54:02 though i was about 7 at the time Feb 12 12:54:14 It had actual keys, that you could press down. Feb 12 12:54:25 The ZX81 simply had the membrane. Feb 12 12:54:36 it can be alleviated a bit with the type of visual feedback i described earlier Feb 12 12:54:37 ah i think i know what you mean Feb 12 12:54:50 Just didn't like the rubber keys on speccie, felt like they were covered in marmalade. Feb 12 12:54:50 so you actually know what key you are pressing Feb 12 12:55:07 the 'key' did have a little give, if you pressed it in the centre, but just rubbing your fingers over it gave no indication. Feb 12 12:55:34 And the travel was 0.5mm. Feb 12 12:55:59 I'm not sure visual feedback helps at all. Feb 12 12:56:16 well it does help quite a bit Feb 12 12:56:23 A big reaso I'm moderately accurate at typing is feeling the edge of the keys while typing. Feb 12 12:56:45 Good reaso. Feb 12 12:56:54 if the screen is big enough two thumbed input might be usable, don't apple say they have some error predictor thing on their iphone? Feb 12 12:56:56 And correcting finger-finger if I get near the edge of the keys rather than the centre. Feb 12 12:56:56 because without it you hve absolutely no idea whether what key you pressed or whether the keypress was registered at all Feb 12 12:57:03 http://www.thinkgeek.com/computing/input/8193/ Feb 12 12:57:08 did anyone in here see the neonode n2? i'm curious what the thoughts are regarding it Feb 12 12:57:25 it seems competitive to the moko phone Feb 12 12:57:34 but visual feedback alone is not enough Feb 12 12:57:56 mitcheloc: "competitive" ... you mean it's just as open? Feb 12 12:58:08 Morgaine: from the press release, it seems that way, yes Feb 12 12:58:37 Morgaine: check it out on engadget, it's like the second article Feb 12 12:58:51 Morgaine: quote from the site: "the future has arrived" Feb 12 12:59:06 Morgaine: if that's the future, I want to stay in the past Feb 12 12:59:21 OMG, a thumbphone Feb 12 12:59:39 sarcasm? Feb 12 12:59:44 Yep ;-) Feb 12 13:00:20 now i feel silly, i can't find where it said it was poen Feb 12 13:00:40 * open, must have gotten mixed up, there are like 15 other phones that engadget posted about already today Feb 12 13:00:57 still thumbsized shouldn't be a big deal unless your concern is web browsing? Feb 12 13:01:13 "Neonode N2 is also an open platform, which means that you can download all the additional applications and features you want your device to have." Feb 12 13:01:16 "Neonode N2 is also an open platform, which means that you can download all the additional applications and features you want your device to have" - doesn't sound very open Feb 12 13:01:35 ah, there it is, that is it, how is that not open hads? Feb 12 13:01:49 mitcheloc: my concern is using the 1000 packages in OE, when all I'm allowed to use is my thumb ;-) Feb 12 13:01:54 open in the sense you can install your own applications - compared with many phones that don't allow you to run 'unsigned' apps Feb 12 13:02:10 * SpeedEvil stabs neonode in the head. Feb 12 13:02:17 mitcheloc: the base system isn't likely to be modifiable, which means that new functionality can't be integrated properly Feb 12 13:02:18 It sounds like one of those other definitions of open :) Feb 12 13:02:20 How the hell can you patent optical touchscreens. Feb 12 13:02:31 They have been around forever. Feb 12 13:03:09 case mod, hack a usb mouse rollerball into back of neo1973 Feb 12 13:03:17 2 versions (and accidentally added extra day for source, removed): Feb 12 13:03:20 counter Feb 12 13:03:20 source: 2 days 22:23:45 (2.933 days); P0: 16.933; P1: 47.933; P2: 230.933 (see counter?) (274) Feb 12 13:03:23 counter? Feb 12 13:03:23 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12, but actual date hopefully is earlier (maybe even several days)): 2 days 22:23:42 (2.933 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.933 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.933 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.933 days) for mass market (200 Feb 12 13:03:33 (second version for answering newbies) Feb 12 13:04:07 lengthy :) Feb 12 13:05:58 yeah, or you can talk for few lines to explain same (might still need it though, see earlier today for sureshkumar) Feb 12 13:08:41 i just don't like the moko phone look, kind of funky =/ Feb 12 13:10:18 * SpeedEvil burns the heretic. Feb 12 13:10:21 :) Feb 12 13:10:25 I like the look of it. Feb 12 13:10:43 meh! i'd totally buy one, just don't like the styling, i'm shallow Feb 12 13:10:44 I don't like the lack of buttons - even though they might make it look more cluttered. Feb 12 13:11:18 now the n800 slightly modded would make a sweet sweet phone Feb 12 13:11:25 * aloril doesn't like that its not yet available ;-) Feb 12 13:11:36 I'd like the motorola A1200 - fully open. Feb 12 13:12:07 Patience is a virtue :) Feb 12 13:13:44 <-- will be dead first Feb 12 13:20:43 Well, Neo1 doesn't have any competition atm since its raison d'etre is full openness, so there isn't much point complaining about its physical design. It will become an issue once there is real competition though. Feb 12 13:21:42 Morgaine: yes, but in the real world openness in and of itself doesn't sell Feb 12 13:22:04 Of course there is point. If the design makes me not buy, so I won't develop much for it... Feb 12 13:22:11 Morgaine: and the hardware has to sell, or there won't be a v2 Feb 12 13:22:32 jannu: doesn't matter. There are a billion phones out there for people who aren't interested in openness, and Neo doesn't try to compete with them. Feb 12 13:22:48 Of course it does. Feb 12 13:23:08 If the hardware sucks, the you won't get as many devs. Feb 12 13:23:09 jannu: that is a matter of some debate. Another school of thought is that the cost of h/w dev is covered by the same h/w being sold in WinMobile market. Feb 12 13:23:36 We won't know, unless Sean feels like telling us about FIC's marketting angle.. Feb 12 13:23:53 Morgaine: I thought the whole point of openmoko is that through openness one can create features and functionality which appeals to everyone Feb 12 13:24:05 Morgaine: or maybe not the whole point Feb 12 13:24:51 Software can't mask hardware that people don't like though. Feb 12 13:24:54 jannu: we don't really know that. Sean's post really just stress the openness, as the reason for the project. Anything else we're reading between the lines. Feb 12 13:25:00 Or not completely. Feb 12 13:25:42 anyway, the whole venture needs to be profitable, or else it will just die Feb 12 13:26:00 Not really. Feb 12 13:26:10 because unlike in pc world, mobile phone hardware isn't standardised Feb 12 13:26:25 I'm *guessing* that Sean really is interested in the openness angle ... a big experiment for FIC. And if it sells to mom+dad, then that's a bonus. Feb 12 13:26:34 so the platform more or less needs hardware which is designed to support it Feb 12 13:26:42 If FIC go under after starting out, and someone else thinks it;'d be a nice way toi boost their phone,,. Feb 12 13:27:17 SpeedEvil: yes, if someone else thinks that Feb 12 13:27:21 FIC has 3000 employees. There is no chance of it going down ... in fact. the CEO has probably not even heard of this small project ;-) Feb 12 13:27:21 go under = stop doing it - they are large otherwise. Feb 12 13:28:13 SpeedEvil: but basically the platform will die without hardware support Feb 12 13:28:29 Yup. Feb 12 13:28:44 Well, less someone cracks a phone platform. Feb 12 13:29:09 If the A1200m or some nice hardware gets opened by hackers. Feb 12 13:29:10 Nah, Mickey's ensuring that OM will work on OpenEZX phones, and Sean is supporting that breadth of design. Feb 12 13:29:16 SpeedEvil: yep. and reverse-engineers all the hardware out there Feb 12 13:29:22 Then there is no need for makers support Feb 12 13:29:38 reverse engineering is hard though. Feb 12 13:30:24 SpeedEvil: yes, and with mobile phones you'd probably need to re-certify the thing Feb 12 13:30:33 Maybe not. Feb 12 13:30:45 In most, the GSM bit'll be canned. Feb 12 13:30:53 jannu: nah, the GSM module is embedded and closed. Feb 12 13:31:02 plus - yoyu're not selling em. Feb 12 13:31:10 SpeedEvil: nowadays yes, but one-chip designs are becoming more common Feb 12 13:31:23 It's a package for users to install. Feb 12 13:31:34 one-chip makes it harder. Feb 12 13:31:43 yes, considerably Feb 12 13:32:34 because you need to show that the new virtualisation package can keep up with the real-time requirements Feb 12 13:32:54 Or your new GSM stack. Feb 12 13:32:58 yeah. Feb 12 13:33:17 Talking of virtualization, has anyone played with that module in OE? Feb 12 13:33:24 and approvals are probably impossible without makers approval. Feb 12 13:33:34 so I'd daresay that the mass-market appeal of the hardware is pretty damn important Feb 12 13:33:46 SpeedEvil: and money Feb 12 13:36:00 Hi Feb 12 13:37:17 sysadmins: bad remote connect-as-root bug found in Solaris, according to Slashdot. Feb 12 13:37:27 As I mentioned some time ago on the OpenMoko community list, I am launching a site about open mobiles soon and are looking for a suitable name Feb 12 13:37:50 One member of our current site proposed mokomove :) Feb 12 13:38:11 with the idea being to call all open standards and Free Software powered phones as "mokos" Feb 12 13:38:35 What do you think? Would that go well with OpenMoko and people in general? Feb 12 13:38:52 mokomove, btw, is Moko Movement :) Feb 12 13:39:14 libervisco: with openmoko yes, but doesn't sound too sexy as a general name Feb 12 13:39:40 libervisco: then again, I don't have a better idea Feb 12 13:39:44 you mean, to apply to other similar phones like greenphone or Nokia? Feb 12 13:39:48 hmm Feb 12 13:39:59 we've been looking for some names for weeks now :P Feb 12 13:40:16 for a while I was stuck with a name involving "Mobile2" Feb 12 13:40:28 Mobile2Community for example.. Feb 12 13:40:31 libervisco: I mean that moko doesn't sound all that catchy Feb 12 13:40:39 SpeedEvil: A1200m being open for hackers is still mostly open for only hackers: most buyers use what is default (otherwise Linux would have much higher usage ratio if bundling OS was illegal ;-) Feb 12 13:40:45 you do know that 'moko' is 'snot' in spanish, right? Feb 12 13:40:46 libervisco: Don't really care personally about names and hype. It stands or falls by its openness and functionality, for me. Feb 12 13:41:10 Morgaine: That sounds like GNU/Mobile Feb 12 13:41:17 * CM hides Feb 12 13:41:20 CM: hehehe Feb 12 13:41:42 Morgaine: right, I'm just looking for a name that'd best present our site :) Feb 12 13:41:45 Zealots would swarm to the site.. Feb 12 13:42:04 CM: just what we need ... ;-) Feb 12 13:42:07 which will be a discussion site and a news site on mobile devices powered by open standards and Free Software, like OpenMokos Feb 12 13:42:44 like http://www.freesmartphone.org/index.html ? Feb 12 13:43:16 not really Feb 12 13:43:29 CM: that said, our entire purpose here is openness ... the project has no purpose without that. And Sean did express interest in FSF recognition of its openess, so there doesn't seem to be any tension there. Feb 12 13:43:31 this would be more oriented to general public or general geeks ;) Feb 12 13:43:43 with forums, attractive news portal and all :) Feb 12 13:43:46 web2ish Feb 12 13:44:03 libervisco: Basically for users, not devs Feb 12 13:44:05 ? Feb 12 13:44:08 yeah Feb 12 13:44:13 :) Feb 12 13:44:16 though all are welcome Feb 12 13:44:53 General public site would be helpful .... a decoy. ;-))) Feb 12 13:45:05 decoy? Feb 12 13:45:06 why :D Feb 12 13:45:19 oh Feb 12 13:45:21 right :) Feb 12 13:45:29 Morgaine: Exactly! Just start a few forum topics like FPGA and OMG WiFi!! Feb 12 13:45:34 yeah the idea is to attract real users Feb 12 13:45:49 I mean, plain users :) Feb 12 13:45:54 not just geeks.. Feb 12 13:46:02 though geeks will probably be first :) Feb 12 13:46:06 as always Feb 12 13:46:29 but.. we're still stuck with choosing a name Feb 12 13:46:29 most developers dislike fora Feb 12 13:46:50 yeah Feb 12 13:46:57 koen: and that's why having one for users is good Feb 12 13:47:04 right Feb 12 13:47:06 yep :) Feb 12 13:47:09 but look at the topic :) Feb 12 13:47:09 jannu: thats right Feb 12 13:47:10 koen: so they stay out of dev mailing lists Feb 12 13:47:21 as long they does not request soft on forum only Feb 12 13:47:37 look: zaurus 'users' groups forum Feb 12 13:47:46 Horses for courses. As the dev ML shows, it's hard enough to stay on course even among techs ... it gets messy in a full public exchange, differing values and interests. Feb 12 13:48:03 Programming consists of 50% planning, 50% coding and 30% mathematics Feb 12 13:48:09 good quote for today Feb 12 13:48:12 hrw: hehehe Feb 12 13:48:14 btw, I installed Vista on a 3.2Ghz laptop with 1G RAM and 256M of video RAM over the weekend. The "testing your machines performance" took over 13 hours. Feb 12 13:48:17 sorry, mt. Feb 12 13:48:34 Hahaha noidd Feb 12 13:48:41 noidd: what is vista? :D Feb 12 13:49:15 It's half of a search engine? Feb 12 13:49:33 I need something with useable video editing Feb 12 13:49:39 I gave up on cinelerra et all. Feb 12 13:49:46 Any other name suggestions? :) Feb 12 13:49:49 noidd: a mac? Feb 12 13:49:56 if you know a fairly useable video editor for Linux I'm all over it. Feb 12 13:50:01 dd! Feb 12 13:50:12 I don't want to buy dedicated hardware (although I came pretty close) Feb 12 13:50:29 vista ultimate cost me $45 (instead of $400). Feb 12 13:50:36 for $45 its worth an experiment. Feb 12 13:51:04 It could just be BO, not facetious. Feb 12 13:51:05 oops Feb 12 13:51:16 noidd: that's true. but the thing sucks so much ram that video editing on 1G is going to be a pain Feb 12 13:51:19 Vista is a content delivery mechanism for content providers to control equipment that they do not own. Feb 12 13:51:25 I can't see how $400 can be justified. Feb 12 13:51:36 And mandate hardware requirements. Feb 12 13:51:55 That make stuff use more power, even when not playing premium content. Feb 12 13:52:21 well, $45 can be justified. Feb 12 13:52:38 but yeah - no way in hell am I paying over $50. Feb 12 13:52:51 I work with a few Microsoft Alumni. Feb 12 13:53:16 Say what you want about MS but ex-employees can still but this shit from MS at "cost". Feb 12 13:53:31 thats a decient employee (and ex-employee) benefit. Feb 12 13:53:38 noidd: use XP? Feb 12 13:54:02 XP didn't have the built in video editor Feb 12 13:54:17 I can always do that Feb 12 13:54:24 But $45 is not its real cost. Its cost is $45 plus the cost of the machine that you are dedicating to run it. Feb 12 13:55:37 the machine dual-boots to linux for real work. Feb 12 13:55:49 right now vista is un-usable so its kinda irrelevant :-P Feb 12 13:59:32 noidd: if you can get along with the bundled video editor in vista, you could try kino on linux Feb 12 13:59:37 I sincerely hope that vista has to revoke the key of a major hardware component selling in millions. Feb 12 13:59:54 noidd: http://www.kinodv.org/ Feb 12 14:00:11 noidd: or lives http://lives.sourceforge.net/ Feb 12 14:01:06 I wonder what the global warming effects of all this AES encryption of uncompressed video streams is... Couple of watts times a few hundred million isn't a real small number. Feb 12 14:01:20 Hehe Feb 12 14:01:59 Actually, the main reason for recent global warming is probably all the talk about global warming ... Feb 12 14:04:09 noidd: then, if either of those work for you, return the vista box and donate the $45 to that project Feb 12 14:04:31 Hmmm ... reversible computing can be very low power in theory. I wonder if that can be translated into encryption/decryption ... it's certainly reversible, but not in the computing sense methinks. Feb 12 14:05:43 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Reversible_computing Feb 12 14:05:59 jannu: if either of those work for me I will donate the $45 Feb 12 14:06:06 you have my word on that. Feb 12 14:06:54 noidd: I use kino occassionally and it's always worked for me. Feb 12 14:08:06 noidd: I just found lives, so I'm not sure about it, but it looks quite good Feb 12 14:08:17 cinelerra was just way too unstable for me. Feb 12 14:08:45 I am completely broke and unable to continue developing LiVES at present. Please make a donation to help keep the LiVES project going ! Feb 12 14:08:49 bah Feb 12 14:09:41 I guess none of those can do HD editing. Feb 12 14:09:55 not that I seem to have the processing power to do DV editing let alone HD Feb 12 14:10:24 I have my own TV show being broadcast in April Feb 12 14:10:38 I can use the TV stations equipment but - ya know... Feb 12 14:10:48 be nice to be ableto do it on my own time. Feb 12 14:11:32 How's the Perl integration/refactoring into OE coming along? Feb 12 14:13:12 Seem to recall that there was some kind of madness with several hundred modules or something. Feb 12 14:14:37 it only generated 700+ packages Feb 12 14:15:23 861 Feb 12 14:16:49 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php Feb 12 14:17:55 it's ugly Feb 12 14:17:59 heh Feb 12 14:18:06 Ugly, but useful. Feb 12 14:18:11 I can't figure out if that's a new version of the well-known Freedom keyboard, or the old version. Feb 12 14:18:21 cute :-) Feb 12 14:18:52 "If that is credit-card sized, that man's hands are awfully tiny." Feb 12 14:18:55 Point! Feb 12 14:19:02 This is the better-known Freedom: Feb 12 14:19:08 http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/product/8555.htm Feb 12 14:19:57 that's a strange device Feb 12 14:20:07 I like it :) Feb 12 14:20:10 Yeah Feb 12 14:20:33 damn, tiny Feb 12 14:20:42 damn useful Feb 12 14:20:46 for it's size Feb 12 14:20:46 i just want me a medion umpc :) Feb 12 14:21:05 does medion do umpc's too? :S Feb 12 14:21:20 * LuitvD googles Feb 12 14:21:22 wow... Feb 12 14:21:24 nice device Feb 12 14:21:25 it's a new thing, as of the first of this month i believe Feb 12 14:21:27 * next month Feb 12 14:21:55 GPS, DVB-t, wifi, bluetooth... Feb 12 14:22:01 that thing is nice Feb 12 14:22:21 but what's the resolution of that screen? :P Feb 12 14:23:13 ah, never mind, found it Feb 12 14:24:15 800x480... that's only 76800 pixels more than the Neo1973 Feb 12 14:24:18 :P Feb 12 14:24:33 it also has a camera Feb 12 14:24:41 and slide out keyboard Feb 12 14:24:47 so? I have an SLR camera ;) Feb 12 14:24:57 yes but try to use the slr as a webcam! Feb 12 14:25:05 for msn while you are driving heh Feb 12 14:25:07 and the slide-out keyboard is weird... Feb 12 14:25:11 not that that is safe.... Feb 12 14:25:14 * mitcheloc like Feb 12 14:26:13 hmm, I'd rather have a Neo then that Medion RM1000 Feb 12 14:26:28 (for the software, the phone, and the size :P ) Feb 12 14:27:03 have you guys read of omnifone? Feb 12 14:27:47 www.omnifone.com Feb 12 14:27:50 looks promising Feb 12 14:28:45 (though I don't like the "DRM is built-in" part...) Feb 12 14:29:58 How does "linmotion" sound to you guys? Feb 12 14:30:24 A lot like Linspire, if I'm honest :P Feb 12 14:30:33 ah :) Feb 12 14:30:49 SuN: it's actually Liberty In Motion Feb 12 14:30:55 could also be Linux In Motion Feb 12 14:31:07 referring to open mobiles of course Feb 12 14:32:08 libervisco: make "liberty" part of the name and you have a winner ;-) Feb 12 14:32:24 why should i want to pay for music that only runs on a mobile phone Feb 12 14:32:29 seems positively stupid to me Feb 12 14:32:42 buz: aye Feb 12 14:33:08 Morgaine: you mean LibertyInMotion.com? Feb 12 14:33:14 then again, most things with phones are positively stupid Feb 12 14:33:44 buz: funny how it sounds positively fantastic from a marketroid's point of view. Two different universes. Feb 12 14:34:12 marketroids live in RDF all day long Feb 12 14:34:22 libervisco: dunno about that, almost sounds like a brand of laxative ;-) Feb 12 14:34:46 ahh Feb 12 14:34:52 :D Feb 12 14:35:07 this is probably the toughest part of launching this site.. choosing a name :D Feb 12 14:35:50 It's always so. Like in MMOGs, take more time choosing the name of a char than specc'ing it, hehe Feb 12 14:36:02 hehe Feb 12 14:37:48 buz: presumably Neo/OM is going to raise the ire of the ringtone industry. ;-) That's going to be fun Feb 12 14:37:55 libervisco: you need a name to launch a website? Feb 12 14:37:56 mhh Feb 12 14:38:04 most decent phones can use mp3 as ringtone Feb 12 14:38:19 mitcheloc: yeah Feb 12 14:38:37 libervisco: how does "pink cable" sound? i've got this pink network cable for my laptop Feb 12 14:38:46 so i decided to buy pinkcable.com, gotta put something up one day... Feb 12 14:38:51 :D Feb 12 14:39:09 Pink? You mean like ponies? And FPGA? Feb 12 14:39:15 hehe Feb 12 14:39:41 if it's already registered, it's not much use to me.. ;) Feb 12 14:39:51 joint venture? =P Feb 12 14:40:06 right :P Feb 12 14:40:27 i've also got a two letter .ag domain hiding somewhere Feb 12 14:40:32 too bad .ag is meaningless Feb 12 14:40:44 and since i haven't paid it in years, if they detect me using it, i'm afraid they will disable it Feb 12 14:40:45 heh Feb 12 14:40:55 eh Feb 12 14:41:00 actually, for that matter, i never paid for it, this was well before they had an automated system in place Feb 12 14:41:06 Sell fr.ag to the headshot brigade, you'll make a million ;-) Feb 12 14:41:13 lol Feb 12 14:41:15 i don't have that :( Feb 12 14:41:21 fr.ag that's nice :) Feb 12 14:41:28 * mitcheloc just checked, yep, still registered to me Feb 12 14:43:51 counter Feb 12 14:43:51 source: 2 days 20:43:13 (2.863 days); P0: 16.863; P1: 47.863; P2: 230.863 (see counter?) (276) Feb 12 14:44:22 counter? Feb 12 14:44:23 (counting down to 23:59:59.999... UTC-12, but actual date hopefully is earlier (maybe even several days)): 2 days 20:42:42 (2.863 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.863 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.863 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.863 days) for mass market (200 Feb 12 14:47:05 That's so long, that irc truncated the last char. ;o) Feb 12 14:47:58 what is that countdown for? Feb 12 14:48:16 Talking about the headshot brigade (and seeing as we have another 3 days to wait) ... these videos are utterly hilarious. Gotta start from #1 though for context: Feb 12 14:48:24 http://www.purepwnage.com/episodes.html Feb 12 14:48:36 to annoy people who've not yet got their units Feb 12 14:48:42 yeah Feb 12 14:48:43 :) Feb 12 14:49:05 even more annyoing would be a upcounting counter hehehe Feb 12 14:49:11 hehe Feb 12 14:50:18 I wonder, what aloril will do, when the counter finally reaches zero ;) Feb 12 14:50:27 Implode Feb 12 14:50:34 wipe his screen Feb 12 14:50:57 Turn into a cream cake Feb 12 14:51:44 Morgaine - wishful thinking? ;) Feb 12 14:52:02 Elrond: yeah, haven't had lunch yet ;-) Feb 12 14:53:15 I had launch, but am still somewhat jaded. ;) Feb 12 14:53:19 i bet peopel will find another stupid usage for that counter Feb 12 14:53:34 * Morgaine does a recce into the fridge area, currently held by terrorist snipers Feb 12 14:53:56 Morgaine, oh no .., dont use the t-word ;-) Feb 12 14:54:04 Oops Feb 12 14:54:35 now this channel is observed 90% of the secruity instances world wide Feb 12 14:54:37 telekom? ;o) (that's one of the T*-words here. ;) ) Feb 12 14:54:40 Elrond: that already happened earlier today (local time) ;-) Feb 12 14:55:03 Elrond: better question is when something actually happens: will remove that part Feb 12 14:55:17 (or replace it with link in long version) Feb 12 14:55:35 Morgaine - Can you hunt some chocolate in the fridge area for me? ;) Feb 12 14:55:56 aloril - :-) What are you coding this in? Feb 12 14:56:44 hmmm... looks as if those snipers finally found rob_w Feb 12 14:57:05 Elrond: xchat python module (but works as standalone program too) Feb 12 14:57:12 ROB1963, tsts Feb 12 14:57:21 :-) Feb 12 14:57:30 (running locally in shell) Feb 12 14:57:37 We've, we've discussed encryption here, and are subverting the entire western phone industry business model by openess, and are hacking a device that can be used for warhead guidance ... so I'd guess that we're near the top of the observation list anyway ;-) Feb 12 14:57:59 Morgaine, oh thats is true .. damn Feb 12 14:58:16 Add a webcam, a servo, and robosniper! Feb 12 14:58:43 that is samsung tech Feb 12 14:58:53 its like with everything : the question is : Do we weaponize this item or not .. Feb 12 14:59:15 Elrond: sorry, no chocolate ... that area is still under the control of insurgents. Feb 12 14:59:17 Well - I'd strongly suggest that it not include an open-source missile guidance app. Feb 12 14:59:34 Morgaine: really any phone can be used for guidance, just put asterisk on the other end, and use DTMF Feb 12 14:59:38 thats a matter of time :-D Feb 12 15:00:03 mitcheloc: we know that. But logic has never been the strong point of those in power. Feb 12 15:03:19 Morgaine - Okay... let me go home, then I'll find my blade and we can free that area ;o) Feb 12 15:04:29 Elrond: they've got planet-busting hyperspace beam weapons .... that sword of yours had better be good. Feb 12 15:05:06 Morgaine - It's very good! :) Feb 12 15:05:14 :P Feb 12 15:06:13 counter Feb 12 15:06:13 source: 2 days 20:20:51 (2.848 days); P0: 16.848; P1: 47.848; P2: 230.848 (see counter?) (278) Feb 12 15:06:17 :] Feb 12 15:06:30 ok, that is much better Feb 12 15:07:41 Morgaine - Guess why I don't take it to work. People would be totaly chocked. ;o) Feb 12 15:08:22 meh, the butterfly effect 2 was a dutz Feb 12 15:08:58 s"see counter\?"long: /msg aloril counter\?" Feb 12 15:10:31 (but of course if some newbie asks for stuff, still can use long version to answer here too) Feb 12 15:10:42 Anyway, I'm on the travel home. Later boys and girls. ;) Feb 12 15:10:44 I don't take stuff into work unless I want the boss to take it to bits Feb 12 15:10:46 * aloril guesses that will happen once source is released Feb 12 15:11:38 hey guys, why does the neo 1973 have a big whole on the bottom? Feb 12 15:11:39 * hole Feb 12 15:11:43 faq::for-mum-and-dad::counter? Feb 12 15:11:44 ;o) Feb 12 15:11:53 mitcheloc: lanyard Feb 12 15:12:20 i see Feb 12 15:12:22 Elrond: hehe Feb 12 15:12:26 the release date? Feb 12 15:12:40 mitcheloc: lanyard will be included in box Feb 12 15:12:50 Wee. Feb 12 15:12:59 Will a stylus be included? Feb 12 15:13:27 I think some mail said stylus will be included too Feb 12 15:13:42 aloril: do you know anything about a release date? Feb 12 15:14:01 mitcheloc: scroll a bit up for that looong counter message ;-) Feb 12 15:14:21 mitcheloc - Or use "/msg aloril counter?". Feb 12 15:14:42 ahh i thought the counter was for some sort of rpg game Feb 12 15:14:46 i wonder why i thought that Feb 12 15:14:52 mitcheloc: hehe Feb 12 15:15:32 got it Feb 12 15:17:39 Whoopsy, big split Feb 12 15:18:23 Oh, wait... all this neo/openmoko stuff is a big rpg? ;o) Feb 12 15:18:42 roll a save vs. release delay Feb 12 15:18:49 There's a chance it might be :-) Feb 12 15:18:53 Elrond: take 2D6 damge Feb 12 15:19:06 it's the worlds most distributed rpg over gsm? Feb 12 15:19:15 XorA - What do you mean? Feb 12 15:19:34 Elrond: the Gazeebo is going to get you Feb 12 15:19:51 One of the big ARGs completed a few days ago, with The Cube being discovered. Feb 12 15:20:12 $200k reward to finder Feb 12 15:20:18 Anyway, the coachman is ready. Getting home now. :-) Feb 12 15:20:27 Cya later :-) Feb 12 15:20:31 Don't spare the ponies. Feb 12 15:20:38 yay Feb 12 15:20:56 www.openmoko.org Feb 12 15:21:06 I meditate to regain my mana, before casting Lvl. 8 Cock of the Infinite. Feb 12 15:21:15 rofl Feb 12 15:21:21 haha Feb 12 15:21:23 * SpeedEvil watches mitcheloc turn into a cockerel. Feb 12 15:21:34 Just don't put on your wizard hat pls, there are children watching Feb 12 15:21:35 I spend my mana reserves to cast Mighty F*ck of the Beyondness. Feb 12 15:21:56 you've got to love bloodninja :) Feb 12 15:21:57 * SpeedEvil watches mitcheloc having fun in the chicken pen. Feb 12 15:22:18 SpeedEvil: "I stomp the ground, and snort, to alert you that you are in my breeding territory." Feb 12 15:22:39 oh what a way to start the day Feb 12 15:22:40 wow, very big split :D Feb 12 15:22:43 SpeedEvil: I'd run, if I were you Feb 12 15:22:48 * SpeedEvil marvels at the stomping chicken. Is it trying to raise worms to the surface? Feb 12 15:23:00 Morgaine: don't encourage me! Feb 12 15:23:10 mitcheloc: hehe Feb 12 15:23:27 Hmm. Feb 12 15:23:35 Sporting apps for the neo... Feb 12 15:23:39 Golf is obvious. Feb 12 15:24:04 Scuba is right out. Feb 12 15:24:07 Curling, as we have so many scandinavian fans Feb 12 15:24:29 Attach little brushes to the bottom, and upgrade the vibrator motor. Feb 12 15:24:42 * mitcheloc mmmss at that Feb 12 15:25:34 Well, you can brush the path in front of the stones with your finger on ts, so curling can be done. Feb 12 15:25:52 I was meaning more RL sport assistance ones. Feb 12 15:26:12 wb Feb 12 15:26:18 SpeedEvil: RL? is that some sort of new MMOG? ;-) Feb 12 15:26:22 Yes. Feb 12 15:26:26 Pretty dull though. Feb 12 15:26:30 Hehe Feb 12 15:26:34 And way too many griefers. Feb 12 15:27:07 And very poor resurrection support. Feb 12 15:27:45 good resolution though and low ping times ;-) Feb 12 15:27:53 hehe Feb 12 15:27:59 Ping time sucks for distant users. Feb 12 15:28:07 I mean, speed of light, what's with that. Feb 12 15:28:32 good point Feb 12 15:28:46 whats my ping? i'm using radio waves instead Feb 12 15:29:20 Kumbi: login Feb 12 15:29:21 oops Feb 12 15:30:01 ever see the chumby? Feb 12 15:30:30 the source is released? Feb 12 15:31:37 l3010o: got delayed, should be within 3 days Feb 12 15:32:08 oh..ok let's wait =) Feb 12 15:32:38 http://www.openmoko.org/ got password protected (had dummy content for a while) Feb 12 15:32:55 Well if you think about it carefully enough, RL actually is just another virtual world -- we don't actually touch the substance of matter directly, but only indirectly through forces, and we don't actually know the world is there, but correlate mental models with perceptions. Feb 12 15:33:23 Seems real enough to me ... but I know I'm deceiving myself ;-) Feb 12 15:35:08 mitcheloc - CHUMBY! Feb 12 15:37:04 chumby has been "coming soon" for quite awhile Feb 12 15:37:16 * ajturner hearts ambient information display devices Feb 12 15:38:14 Easy to see the deception on the visual side. Just press your eyeball (gently!!!!) until your mental model loses its correlation with the visual input, and then see the incredible crap that our eyes actually generate as input. Our brain doesn't show us visual reality --- it shows us the model we expect instead. ;-) Feb 12 15:43:03 This is also why cats brought up in an environment with only horizontal lines walk straight into anything with vertical edges. They simply don't see the object, there is no mental model for things that are vertical. Feb 12 15:58:31 * LuitvD[eating] is away: sleeping Feb 12 15:58:41 lol, oops :P Feb 12 15:58:48 ah well... Feb 12 16:01:02 Sleepeating? ;-) Feb 12 16:05:16 oh oh , the list is getting hot on openmoko trademarks now .. seems the project hit some critical mass Feb 12 16:05:30 Oh boy :-( Feb 12 16:05:43 the list? Feb 12 16:05:50 oh, the non-devel list Feb 12 16:06:10 yeah Feb 12 16:07:02 openmoko trademarks? Feb 12 16:07:25 I confess, I did register an openmoko based domainname :-) Feb 12 16:07:38 but screw trademarks, I don't really care that much about them Feb 12 16:09:32 noidd, well u better be sure about that .. Feb 12 16:10:09 counter Feb 12 16:10:09 source: 2 days 19:16:56 (2.803 days); P0: 16.803; P1: 47.803; P2: 230.803 (newbie version: counter?) (279) Feb 12 16:10:44 counter? Feb 12 16:10:44 (actual release might happen earlier): 2 days 19:16:20 (2.803 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.803 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.803 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.803 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (280) Feb 12 16:11:34 i dont see much problem about the openmoko string but yet neo1973 seems to be a product name of FIC Feb 12 16:12:17 Harald Welte: Sandisk 2GB SDSDQU-2048-E10M works just fine. ( http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003156.html ) Feb 12 16:12:26 rob_w: Neo1973 is first phone running OpenMoko platform. both are FIC Feb 12 16:12:32 and he's gone Feb 12 16:14:50 Anyone seeking to restrict access to names gets no sympathy from me. That's as true for Windows and iPhone as it is for OpenMoko. Feb 12 16:15:30 Morgaine: as someone said on the list, a trademark holder has to be seen to protect their trademark Feb 12 16:15:46 rob_w - 800+ people, you're bound to hit someones nerve on something at somepoint Feb 12 16:15:46 robtaylor: only by legal BS. It doesn't make it right Feb 12 16:15:52 see: previous GNU discussions :) Feb 12 16:16:22 hope I am not repeating othe people, but when will the neo be released? Feb 12 16:16:32 Morgaine: if you don't, then you'll have problems when some evil entity wants to steal your trademark Feb 12 16:16:43 e.g. apple =) Feb 12 16:16:55 http://usb.brando.com.hk/prod_detail.php?prod_id=00241 Feb 12 16:16:56 apple evil? no. Business savvy - yes Feb 12 16:16:58 robtaylor: sorry, but you're the legal entity in the first place by seeking to own a word. Feb 12 16:16:59 or the other apple, even Feb 12 16:17:08 s/legal/evil/ Feb 12 16:17:08 Morgaine meant: robtaylor: sorry, but you're the evil entity in the first place by seeking to own a word. Feb 12 16:17:15 Morgaine: no a trademark isn't ownership of a word Feb 12 16:17:33 robtaylor: it's restricting use of a word. Feb 12 16:17:34 edistar: /msg aloril counter? Feb 12 16:17:47 Morgaine: not even that, you can't trademark a word Feb 12 16:17:56 not unless you made it up Feb 12 16:18:07 mickeyl: you might want to update topic with latest announcement Feb 12 16:18:45 Morgaine: thats why in the Lindows/MS battle, MS settled out of court Feb 12 16:18:46 robtayler - ever see the inside of books (esp. roleplaying books?) they'll trademark words like "Rhino" and "Magic" :) at least within a similar context Feb 12 16:18:57 robtaylor: it simply doesn't scale. In humanity continued down this IP madeness (trademarks are just part of it), then in due course we will not be able to open our mouths without treading on someone's "rights". Feb 12 16:19:05 aloril: ok Feb 12 16:19:06 Morgaine: as they know their trademark on windows wont stand up in a court of law Feb 12 16:19:49 edistar: details: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html (and another announce mail already mentioned in topic) Feb 12 16:19:50 hrw: looks a bit flimsy Feb 12 16:20:01 ajturner: probably not valid trademarks, unless they're claiming that word in a particular prsentation is th trademark Feb 12 16:20:30 Morgaine: its a bit different,also to hold a trademark you actually have to trade using it Feb 12 16:20:32 robtaylor: I'm not basing it on precedent nor law nor what MS is or is not doing. I'm basing it on commonsense: you don't close down the vocabulary of a civilization to protect your income. Feb 12 16:20:37 robtaylor: have thought up a name for your new business yet? Feb 12 16:20:44 september then? Feb 12 16:20:49 Morgaine: if you fail to do that then you also risklosing it Feb 12 16:21:03 Morgaine: so trademarks are effectivly self-limiting, unlike patents Feb 12 16:21:17 koen: yeah CodeThink Ltd Feb 12 16:21:23 edistar: mass market version, but you can buy devel version near end of next month for $350 Feb 12 16:21:23 robtaylor: how can you lose something you don't have, except through a figment of a lawyer's imagination? Feb 12 16:21:47 Morgaine: all property is in societies imagination. thats not really a valid argument against it Feb 12 16:22:05 btw: is there wifi, I can't believe that there isn't with an apt-get supplied.. Feb 12 16:22:22 edistar: there isn't apt-get either Feb 12 16:22:30 wifi? Feb 12 16:22:30 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/InternetAccess Feb 12 16:22:32 but an application manager Feb 12 16:22:36 edistar: no, late 2008 for wifi version Feb 12 16:22:42 that works the same way, right? Feb 12 16:23:00 or you can use bluethooth or a usb-cable Feb 12 16:23:05 robtaylor: I'm referring to language. By bringing "property" into the discussion, you're purposely making the a priori assumption that language is property. Sorry, but that flawed logical discourse. Feb 12 16:23:14 or just a sd card to install packages from Feb 12 16:23:18 okey Feb 12 16:23:22 that sound alright Feb 12 16:23:36 so you can access internet via usb cable from the pc? Feb 12 16:23:36 Morgaine: no, i'm saying your argument that a legal entity is by definition invalid Feb 12 16:23:44 I have a debian box.. Feb 12 16:23:50 edistar, that is one of the plans at least Feb 12 16:23:57 Morgaine: is exactly the same as saying property is invalid Feb 12 16:24:21 Morgaine: which is a plausible belief, but not one you'd get very far by espousing in our society Feb 12 16:24:30 robtaylor: that's broader than what I'm saying. I'm saying that to shut down our free access to language is bad, and giving it the defense of law doesn't in any way remove that badness. Feb 12 16:24:31 okey, thanks :) Feb 12 16:24:55 cu soon Feb 12 16:26:31 And no, you can't replace one noun by another noun and make out that the logic is still the same. That would be an instance of Feynman's cargo cult. Feb 12 16:27:49 Morgaine: umm s/noun/legal concept/ Feb 12 16:28:15 as you claimed all legal concepts are invalid, then yes i can, in your argument-space Feb 12 16:28:29 <[g2]> counter Feb 12 16:28:29 source: 2 days 18:58:35 (2.791 days); P0: 16.791; P1: 47.791; P2: 230.791 (long: /msg aloril counter?) (281) Feb 12 16:39:59 Okay, back home. Feb 12 16:40:15 Morgaine - The chocolate cream cake area is freed! ;) Feb 12 16:40:26 Elrond: lol Feb 12 16:40:39 Did you plant a flag, or just grab and run? Feb 12 16:41:07 They offered the cake to me freely. :) Feb 12 16:41:17 ITSATRAP !!! Feb 12 16:41:19 :P Feb 12 16:41:44 I checked all hiding places. :) Feb 12 16:42:28 Morgaine - You also want one? Feb 12 16:43:06 Check the cakes! I caught part of an insurgent transmission, and it mentioned nanobots .... Feb 12 16:43:44 * Elrond hands a piece of the cake to Morgaine Feb 12 16:43:48 ... for checking. ;) Feb 12 16:44:44 * Morgaine summons a waldo from moon orbit to do the checking Feb 12 16:46:45 Erk, firkin piece of ISS wreckage was in the way. Waldo's OK, just feeling a bit miffed with itself. Feb 12 16:47:39 Ohh. When will they clean up that crap? Feb 12 16:47:46 Apparently the space junk said "... Del .... S.ny ..." on it. Feb 12 16:49:59 * LuitvD[eating] is back (gone 00:51:27) Feb 12 16:50:14 done eating / sleeping :) Feb 12 16:50:31 (stupid /away script Feb 12 16:58:22 That community ML is just awful. I really have sympathy for CSR people whose actual day job is to wade such lists and answer the same thing again and again. Must be mind numbing. Feb 12 16:59:58 It used to be the unwritten rule that you read everything and lurked for a week before posting ... that is such ancient history now. Feb 12 17:00:27 right Feb 12 17:00:31 * mickeyl usually reads 1 year of archives before posting to a new list Feb 12 17:00:46 I guess that's why people prefer fora Feb 12 17:00:57 or a search form Feb 12 17:01:00 not every bit of ignorant drivel gets into your inbox Feb 12 17:01:04 * fluffs takes a big stick to whoever broken the entrie arm tree build Feb 12 17:01:17 Morgaine: well, I think it's a good enhancement to be requested to be implemented the Mailman :) Feb 12 17:01:25 LuitvD: google site://openmoko.org Feb 12 17:01:39 koen: yeah, I do know how it works :P Feb 12 17:01:45 but most people don't Feb 12 17:02:13 "will there be wifi in v1?" Feb 12 17:02:17 Hi mickeyl! :) Feb 12 17:02:17 lol Feb 12 17:02:18 and openmoko.org still isn't open for the public? Feb 12 17:02:22 yo Elrond Feb 12 17:03:19 mickeyl: Cool design you had up there for a minute :-) Feb 12 17:03:39 LuitvD - Within the next few days. :) Feb 12 17:03:45 mooh :( Feb 12 17:04:21 I never liked waiting Feb 12 17:04:30 alphaone ;) Feb 12 17:05:05 LuitvD: yeah, but its not that much of additional time Feb 12 17:05:29 aloril: I mean waiting for the final release... Feb 12 17:05:38 mickeyl - To the "openmoko team": Thanks for the decision (in the announcement). Feb 12 17:05:58 LuitvD: even that was not postponed that much, maybe week or few Feb 12 17:06:02 I just know I'll buy one the second it in the shop Feb 12 17:06:35 a month or a month + one week... it's both waiting :P Feb 12 17:07:41 hmm, that google switch rumor is nice... the device shown in the pictures Feb 12 17:07:41 mickeyl: Thanks for the mail. I guess I wasn't clear enough that I had your permission. Feb 12 17:07:49 can't the second openmoko device be like that? :P Feb 12 17:08:15 alphaone: np Feb 12 17:08:27 alphaone: i guess they also didn't get your joke about becoming rich through OpenMoko Feb 12 17:08:30 *shrug* Feb 12 17:09:08 counter Feb 12 17:09:08 source: 2 days 18:17:56 (2.762 days); P0: 16.762; P1: 47.762; P2: 230.762 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (282) Feb 12 17:09:47 aloril: any idea how many devices will go out at first? Feb 12 17:10:01 LuitvD: no idea Feb 12 17:10:18 I'd love to have one before the final release :P Feb 12 17:10:36 maybe even for beta testing, if possible... Feb 12 17:10:38 XD Feb 12 17:10:51 * LuitvD is into wishful thinking Feb 12 17:12:02 we all are, LuitvD :P Feb 12 17:12:14 Sean said that they kind of guessed at the production run needed to fulfill initial orders, so it sounds like it's a batched JIT operation with a small first run. Feb 12 17:12:14 ^^ Feb 12 17:13:06 if, in any way, anyone has a spare Neo... :P Feb 12 17:13:13 Which means that at some point there will be a 3-week (?) extra delay between orders and shipping. Feb 12 17:13:52 sean said 7% yield was not enough to ship 50-100 phones Feb 12 17:13:57 lol, even more waiting Feb 12 17:14:05 should give you an estimate of the first run Feb 12 17:14:07 Main production bottleneck was the display, ISTR Feb 12 17:14:12 7% yield for some cable I thought? Feb 12 17:14:38 yacc: It wasn't clear to me if it was the cable or the connector on the pcb Feb 12 17:14:50 yacc: that was a fault. No sane production run of anything has 7% yield. Feb 12 17:15:11 Morgaine: Not for usual products ;) Feb 12 17:15:16 reading the annoucment correctly the phase 0 units will go out end of the month ?? Feb 12 17:15:16 how is 7% yield ever possible? :S Feb 12 17:15:30 yacc: indeed. maybe for some military things, dunno Feb 12 17:15:54 Someone drove a truck into the first 10 finished boxes or so Feb 12 17:16:01 rob_w: that's what I read too :P Feb 12 17:16:35 ok so for another wigglish 3 weeks .. Feb 12 17:17:30 is there any list of core people on some wiki ? Feb 12 17:18:08 It's industrial terrorism!!! The LiMo Foundation! They prolly put out a contract on Neo boxes .... ;-) Feb 12 17:18:14 * Morgaine goes back to reading a novel Feb 12 17:19:23 * koen is waiting for some books to get delivered Feb 12 17:19:42 I hate it when the local bookstore doesn't have something in stock Feb 12 17:20:40 koen: what bookstore? Feb 12 17:20:47 s/what/which/ Feb 12 17:20:47 LuitvD meant: koen: which bookstore? Feb 12 17:20:59 LuitvD: libris Feb 12 17:21:11 wow , bounty`s are also already up .. this is crazy .. Feb 12 17:21:11 LuitvD: but I found out it's faster to order at bol.com Feb 12 17:21:22 so if libris doesn't have it -> bol Feb 12 17:21:23 koen: just wanted to say that XD Feb 12 17:21:40 I hate losing books. Happens a lot with the ones I love most, and therefore loan to people (YOU WILL READ THIS!!! :P). I then forget who has them, and never see them again. Feb 12 17:22:09 Morgaine: "industrial terrorism" sounds funny :-) Feb 12 17:22:11 I tend to read books on my laptop now. Feb 12 17:22:25 Downloaded illegally. I then buy the paper. Feb 12 17:22:28 I've bought some top books several times. Bookshops prolly like me. Feb 12 17:22:30 If I finish it. Feb 12 17:22:34 Morgaine - And the people never give it back? Feb 12 17:22:54 Elrond: I don't think they dare, since I'd ask them if they'd read them ;-) Feb 12 17:23:08 I really like the ability to search books, which doesn't happen with dead tree. Feb 12 17:23:49 SpeedEvil: yeah, it's a major asset. Dunno when the world will get around to making all books machine-readable Feb 12 17:24:16 Morgaine: as soon as e-paper hits the market good enaugh Feb 12 17:24:24 As always, greed stands in the way. Feb 12 17:24:31 (or any other type of electric ink) Feb 12 17:24:45 Morgaine: well... actually... no... Feb 12 17:25:42 Morgaine: I just read 4 of the 6 major dutch scholar book companies wanted to digitize their books for e-paper devices Feb 12 17:25:50 i am keen to see the first .config , wonder how much hardware needs still attention Feb 12 17:25:59 there was a release of a quite promising device lately Feb 12 17:26:22 rob_w: I'm keen to see everything :P Feb 12 17:26:36 LuitvD: it'll have to be a different e-ink tech it seems. E-Ink Co has no competition atm, and seems to be stifling takeup by $$$ licensing. Feb 12 17:26:37 the software, the hardware... the outside of the device Feb 12 17:26:57 LuitvD: that's great, re the Dutch! Feb 12 17:27:26 hope this one will get off the ground... Feb 12 17:27:47 it's a step ahead of what apple ever produced Feb 12 17:28:30 hahah i like this one .. you better solve the riddle , man -- http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ideas/HumanScreening?highlight=%28OpenMoko%2FIdeas%29 Feb 12 17:28:37 about 7 years ago they wanted to create a system for schools, with some sort of terminals, downloading the books of each class out of the teachers notebook Feb 12 17:28:53 TFT is quite adequate - indoors. Feb 12 17:29:02 Connected to power. Feb 12 17:29:07 this is actually quite cool , a human screening portal .. are u human ? Feb 12 17:29:14 No. Feb 12 17:29:20 * SpeedEvil is a gerbil. Feb 12 17:29:23 rob_w: That is pure evil :D Feb 12 17:29:40 thats just for the war against the machine`s Feb 12 17:29:55 lol, exactly what I'm saying... evil Feb 12 17:29:59 and I like it :D Feb 12 17:30:15 you could go one step beyond that and filter the dumb people out too :P Feb 12 17:30:16 is OleTange here ? Feb 12 17:30:29 'What is the derivitave of secant(x)' Feb 12 17:30:39 instead of asking what 4 + 2 is, ask for the first 10 digits of PI or something :P Feb 12 17:30:49 damn, beaten... nice one SpeedEvil :P Feb 12 17:30:53 "... you cant serve beyond this point with an IQ lower 120 " Feb 12 17:31:00 wahahah Feb 12 17:31:03 Well, having a background in academia, I just have zero tolerance for information being denied, for whatever reason. And $$$ reasons figure at the bottom of my tolerance list. Feb 12 17:31:19 rob_w: that's a high limit Feb 12 17:31:26 a high lower limit :P Feb 12 17:31:34 yeah ,, i probaly could get through myself Feb 12 17:31:41 IMO, for a tethered book reader, it can be done in bulk at 40 quid. Feb 12 17:31:51 Morgaine, but this time we do not talk about information but privacy Feb 12 17:31:52 With a decentish 5" TFT, and power. Feb 12 17:32:38 rob_w: yeah, I was on the earlier topic, ebooks. Feb 12 17:32:57 * rob_w wonders how 1 quid changes for € Feb 12 17:33:06 One quid = 2 dollars. Feb 12 17:33:07 oh Feb 12 17:33:10 (US) Feb 12 17:33:16 ~change 1 gbp to eur Feb 12 17:33:18 SpeedEvil: that'd be a fair trade :P Feb 12 17:33:21 1.00 Pound (GBP) makes 1.50185 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 12 17:33:28 Err, 1 gbp = about 1.5 eruo Feb 12 17:33:31 oh. Feb 12 17:33:38 lol Feb 12 17:33:39 hrw, thanks Feb 12 17:33:54 ~change 1 eur to usd Feb 12 17:33:55 ? Feb 12 17:33:59 1.00 Euro (EUR) makes 1.29636 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 12 17:34:01 :D Feb 12 17:34:07 ~change 1 lightyear to furlongs Feb 12 17:34:11 wahahah Feb 12 17:34:12 1.00 Dollar (ZWN) makes 1.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 12 17:34:31 what the hell is that :P Feb 12 17:34:58 apt has become sentient Feb 12 17:35:11 I have several laptops of this model (toshibal 3110ct). I keep meaning to take some 6mm glass, laminate the display to it. And the back, to make it a tablet for ebooks. Feb 12 17:35:20 1 lightyear = 4.70279985 × 1013 furlongs Feb 12 17:35:28 Hehehe Feb 12 17:35:40 s/1013/10^13/ Feb 12 17:35:42 LuitvD meant: 1 lightyear = 4.70279985 × 10^13 furlongs Feb 12 17:35:47 no, 1/3 less calories as a normal year Feb 12 17:35:50 that must be some evil imperial measurement Feb 12 17:35:51 ~convert 1 lightyear to furlongs Feb 12 17:35:54 damn imperialists Feb 12 17:35:55 1 lightyear is approximately 4.7028e+13 furlongs Feb 12 17:36:03 lol? Feb 12 17:36:06 Wow! Feb 12 17:36:07 it does know Feb 12 17:36:08 nice Feb 12 17:36:13 ~convert 1 furlong to meter Feb 12 17:36:16 1 furlong is approximately 201.168 meter Feb 12 17:36:16 * Morgaine pats apt on the head Feb 12 17:36:31 ~convert 1 attoparsec to millimeters Feb 12 17:36:33 :) Feb 12 17:36:34 1 attoparsec is approximately 30.8374 millimeters Feb 12 17:36:44 Super :-) Feb 12 17:36:53 3,1 centimeter :) Feb 12 17:37:14 I like these scripts :D Feb 12 17:37:15 good morning Feb 12 17:37:15 sliced my tire driving last night...lots of fun :( Feb 12 17:37:17 i was racing back to see if the code had been released :) Feb 12 17:37:19 1 lightsecond to meter Feb 12 17:37:22 "source delayed by 3 days, let's play with the IRC bots" :) Feb 12 17:37:24 ~convert 1 lightsecond to meter Feb 12 17:37:42 ah it doesnt know lightseconds Feb 12 17:37:58 ~convert 1 year to seconds Feb 12 17:38:01 1 year is approximately 3.15569e+07 seconds Feb 12 17:38:13 31Ms, who doesn't know that. Feb 12 17:38:18 I've never measured candy in parsecs before, but I guess it'll be useful one day to know a mars bar is an attoparsec long. Feb 12 17:38:31 ~calculate 1 / 3.15569e+07 Feb 12 17:38:33 ? Feb 12 17:38:33 :P Feb 12 17:38:43 darn, it doesn't do that Feb 12 17:38:45 310 millilitres in megaparsec barns Feb 12 17:38:54 ~calculate 310 millilitres in megaparsec barns Feb 12 17:38:57 megaparsec barns? Feb 12 17:39:00 what? Feb 12 17:39:00 yes. Feb 12 17:39:08 It's another silly unit. Feb 12 17:39:09 SpeedEvil: ~convert, that is Feb 12 17:39:19 ~convert 310 millilitres in megaparsec barns Feb 12 17:39:37 The barn is a unit used in particle physics. Feb 12 17:39:41 ~convert 10 sheep to usd Feb 12 17:39:44 :P Feb 12 17:40:01 It's the interaction cross section measurement. Feb 12 17:40:03 aww, unknown unit `sheep` :P Feb 12 17:40:07 ~convert 40 pigs to bride price Feb 12 17:40:12 :P Feb 12 17:40:17 nice one jaebird Feb 12 17:40:17 It should have real-time sheep prices. Feb 12 17:40:18 i was about to convert camel to women ;) Feb 12 17:40:22 Sheep! OK, now we're getting into deep conversion semantics Feb 12 17:40:37 heh Feb 12 17:40:47 ~convert 1 second to usd Feb 12 17:40:50 1 second cannot be correctly converted to usd. Feb 12 17:40:51 Let's try out apt's deeper social semantics then ... Feb 12 17:40:52 (time is money) Feb 12 17:40:56 ~convert circumference of Earth to blondes laid end to end Feb 12 17:41:00 ~convert 1 iphone to neo1973 Feb 12 17:41:05 wahahah Feb 12 17:41:07 very nice Feb 12 17:41:09 ~convert money to time Feb 12 17:41:30 And it's around 20 million. Feb 12 17:41:35 (blondes) Feb 12 17:41:38 blondes...does not compute Feb 12 17:42:20 ~convert 1 bullshit to conversation Feb 12 17:42:26 ~convert priesthoods to non-priesthoods Feb 12 17:42:40 ~convert 1 nazi to jews Feb 12 17:42:41 *apt* Unknown unit `priesthoods' Feb 12 17:42:44 (sorry for that) Feb 12 17:42:57 * Morgaine suggests a change of topic Feb 12 17:42:58 apt> Unknown unit `nazi' Feb 12 17:42:58 ~convert 1 hogshead to litres Feb 12 17:43:04 litres is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:43:04 ~convert 5 beers to sexy chick Feb 12 17:43:08 ~convert usd to euro Feb 12 17:43:11 euro is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:43:24 ~convert 1 hogshead to pints Feb 12 17:43:29 1 hogshead is approximately 504 pints Feb 12 17:43:36 Hahaha, nice noidd Feb 12 17:43:40 :) Feb 12 17:43:45 convert 1 pint to litres Feb 12 17:43:55 * noidd looks confused Feb 12 17:44:04 ~convert 1 pint to litres Feb 12 17:44:06 ~convert 1 pint to liters Feb 12 17:44:07 litres is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:44:08 convert 1 gill to hogsheads Feb 12 17:44:09 1 pint is approximately 0.473168 liters Feb 12 17:44:09 damn Feb 12 17:44:17 heh, I win Feb 12 17:44:21 ~convert 1 gill to hogsheads Feb 12 17:44:23 1 gill is approximately 0.000496032 hogsheads Feb 12 17:44:32 Oh dear, it only knows one spelling of litre/liter Feb 12 17:44:33 "free the books" -movement is needed Feb 12 17:44:34 hmm, that's about right Feb 12 17:44:36 ~convert 1 teaspoon to hogsheads Feb 12 17:44:39 1 teaspoon is approximately 2.0668e-05 hogsheads Feb 12 17:44:56 ~convert 1 attoteaspoon to hogshead Feb 12 17:44:57 :-) Feb 12 17:44:58 1 attoteaspoon is approximately 2.0668e-23 hogshead Feb 12 17:44:59 eating a hogshead with a teaspoon Feb 12 17:44:59 topic should be changed Feb 12 17:45:08 no new info Feb 12 17:45:13 attoteaspoon :P Feb 12 17:45:13 wow Feb 12 17:45:15 nice one Feb 12 17:45:19 * noidd bows Feb 12 17:45:20 even Neo1973 can hold over 10000 books Feb 12 17:45:26 * LuitvD applauds Feb 12 17:45:46 aloril2: with USB-host enabled even more :P Feb 12 17:45:49 I like attoparsec. There's something so nice about measuring daily stuff in galactic measurements. Feb 12 17:46:01 ~convert 350 USD to EUR Feb 12 17:46:07 makes you feel important doesnt it Feb 12 17:46:15 Morgaine: yeah, really fun to measure things in a unit nobody understands :P Feb 12 17:46:21 s/measurements/units/ Feb 12 17:46:21 Morgaine meant: I like attoparsec. There's something so nice about measuring daily stuff in galactic units. Feb 12 17:46:29 ~convert 350 USD to EUR Feb 12 17:46:34 ~convert 350 usd to eur Feb 12 17:46:37 eur is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:46:50 ~convert 350 usd to eur Feb 12 17:46:53 eur is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:46:56 buz: the opposite surely ... makes you feel so tiny and insignificant. Feb 12 17:46:56 huh? Feb 12 17:46:59 ~convert 350 usd to EUR Feb 12 17:47:02 EUR is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:47:03 yeah, million or 10 million books Feb 12 17:47:06 ~convert 350 usd to euros Feb 12 17:47:09 euros is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:47:22 apt needs some food. Feb 12 17:47:26 Thatcher has hacked apt!!! Feb 12 17:47:28 guess so Feb 12 17:47:56 ~convert counter to reality Feb 12 17:47:57 350 Euros = 455.56 U.S. dollars Feb 12 17:48:10 wait Feb 12 17:48:14 wrong conversion :D Feb 12 17:48:15 ~convert 350 usd to dem Feb 12 17:48:17 dem is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:48:27 350 U.S. dollars = 268.899816 Euros Feb 12 17:48:32 ~convert 350 USD + shipping to EUR Feb 12 17:48:37 ~convert 350 usd to cad Feb 12 17:48:39 cad is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:48:41 not an expensive phone Feb 12 17:48:42 ~convert 350 usd to cdn Feb 12 17:48:45 cdn is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:48:53 ~convert 350 usd to cnd Feb 12 17:48:58 cnd is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:48:59 ~convert 350 usd to sheep :) Feb 12 17:49:02 sheep :) is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:49:17 350.00 US = 411.316 CAD according to xe.com Feb 12 17:49:18 too bad, wanted to pay in sheep Feb 12 17:49:45 ~convert 350 usd to cauri Feb 12 17:49:49 cauri is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:50:09 Hmm, or how were those old thingies named? Feb 12 17:50:19 ~convert 1 usd to meters of pennies laid end to end Feb 12 17:50:22 meters of pennies laid end to end is an invalid unit? Feb 12 17:50:33 what is the first thing you are going to do when you get access to the src? Feb 12 17:50:48 who? Feb 12 17:50:56 you plural Feb 12 17:51:00 ah Feb 12 17:51:00 ya'll Feb 12 17:51:03 jaebird - watch pics on the wiki ;) Feb 12 17:51:12 same Feb 12 17:51:14 :) Feb 12 17:51:17 me too Feb 12 17:51:33 s/ya'll/y'all/ Feb 12 17:51:36 ;) Feb 12 17:51:38 well, heh, see if it compiles! Feb 12 17:51:53 compile it for ia32. ;) Feb 12 17:52:07 we can run it in QEMU right? Feb 12 17:52:13 s/in/on Feb 12 17:52:56 LuitvD: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=ya'll Feb 12 17:53:32 jaebird: http://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=y'all Feb 12 17:53:53 same thing Feb 12 17:54:23 right Feb 12 17:54:30 ya'll How idiots spell y'all. Feb 12 17:54:31 hehehe Feb 12 17:54:33 :) Feb 12 17:54:38 good point Feb 12 17:55:03 should have left that uncorrected then :P Feb 12 17:59:07 The wiki page showing all the whacky things people do with their Neos should be fun. And a nice selling point too. Feb 12 17:59:25 "making phonecalls" 1000x Feb 12 17:59:38 Hehe, except that ;-) Feb 12 18:00:01 counter Feb 12 18:00:01 source: 2 days 17:27:02 (2.727 days); P0: 16.727; P1: 47.727; P2: 230.727 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (283) Feb 12 18:00:02 counters Feb 12 18:00:15 * noidd waits impatiently Feb 12 18:00:20 no phone for my b'day :-/ Feb 12 18:00:28 i thought it was supposed to release today? Feb 12 18:00:30 (the source) Feb 12 18:00:37 it was. Feb 12 18:00:42 delay of 2 days. Feb 12 18:01:02 weak Feb 12 18:01:02 That's OK, just delay your b/day ;-) Feb 12 18:01:23 I hope I do have one before mine Feb 12 18:01:27 Wouldn't that require a parental fornication delay mechanism? Feb 12 18:01:45 (I think I actually will, as my b'day is mid summer) Feb 12 18:02:37 "parental fornication delay" ... you've just invented a marketting feature buzzard for some product ;-) Feb 12 18:02:56 LOL, "buzzard" ... buzzword Feb 12 18:03:41 valentines day? Feb 12 18:04:20 I can see it now..."sorry babe, can't go out with you tonight...gotta download" Feb 12 18:04:35 :P Feb 12 18:05:10 "Sorry babe, gotta parental fornication delay routine running ..." Feb 12 18:05:25 nice Feb 12 18:05:44 * LuitvD most likely won't have a valentine this year, and no school on that day either :) so all day to skim through the wiki Feb 12 18:06:10 code up something nice! Feb 12 18:06:25 who me? Feb 12 18:06:39 yeah Feb 12 18:06:45 ah, maybe... Feb 12 18:07:00 if anything comes to my mind that day... i definately will Feb 12 18:07:18 skim the wiki like its hot...then code it up Feb 12 18:07:21 jaebird: chuck around some ideas for "nice" if you have, always useful Feb 12 18:08:05 jaebird: that first thing will happen :P Feb 12 18:09:24 there'll be no working on my robot on that day Feb 12 18:09:25 :P Feb 12 18:09:41 i'm thinking jack bauer would love the neo Feb 12 18:09:59 it is amazing what his phone can do! Feb 12 18:10:13 yeah, then he can get his sattelite images sent to his phone instead of his PDA :P Feb 12 18:10:51 "i'm sending you this dudes fingerprint that I just cut off by touching it to my touchscreen" Feb 12 18:11:01 :P Feb 12 18:12:53 can the neo work on a battery for 24 hours? :P Feb 12 18:13:13 or does jack bauer always have a spare battery with him? Feb 12 18:13:13 :P Feb 12 18:13:46 counter Feb 12 18:13:46 source: 2 days 17:13:17 (2.718 days); P0: 16.718; P1: 47.718; P2: 230.718 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (284) Feb 12 18:14:53 LuitvD, depends on how much Bauer uses it :] Feb 12 18:15:37 of course, Jack Bauer has a USB solar charger, and can boost his Neo battery just by looking at it Feb 12 18:15:42 heheheh Feb 12 18:16:48 (good to hear about the 2 gig microSDs verifiably working; I think I can live with that ;) Feb 12 18:16:56 (by the way :) Feb 12 18:17:45 mjr: I can live with the fact that it supports usb-host... Feb 12 18:17:48 :) Feb 12 18:18:13 I'd love to connect my 20GB mp3 to a Neo Feb 12 18:18:50 Are there 4G microsd? Feb 12 18:19:33 yes Feb 12 18:19:58 SpeedEvil, apparently there are or they are coming; it's unclear if the first gen neo supports them or can be made to support them with software Feb 12 18:20:24 2GB cards are comparatively cheap anyway. Feb 12 18:20:40 yeah, I think I'll settle for 2G at this point anyway, even if 4s work Feb 12 18:20:45 And you can keep a 20GB library in a keychain :) Feb 12 18:22:09 Oh boy ... "I've heard of C++, what is the best way to get started? What is Python?" Feb 12 18:22:22 Why am I reading that stuff anyway. Must be a masochist Feb 12 18:22:29 heheh Feb 12 18:22:48 Morgaine: where are you reading that? Feb 12 18:23:04 http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003195.html Feb 12 18:23:09 Morgaine: yes, it seem that on list are some non-coders Feb 12 18:23:24 Non-coders can turn into coders. Feb 12 18:23:32 Mono support looks interesting.... Feb 12 18:23:34 All you need is the right compost, and to water often. Feb 12 18:23:39 LOL Feb 12 18:23:49 I'll have to remember that one ;P Feb 12 18:23:54 but OE is hard even for coders Feb 12 18:24:16 Morgaine - yeah, the problem with him is he *wants* to help Feb 12 18:24:16 OE? Feb 12 18:24:21 but just no idea of what to do Feb 12 18:24:24 openembedded Feb 12 18:24:49 bipolar: mono on the neo !? if it's optional i don't mind :P Feb 12 18:25:31 on linux everything is optional right? Feb 12 18:25:57 on Neo everything is optional...except of some kernel and some libc Feb 12 18:26:17 Magon: what do you mean? Feb 12 18:26:38 everything is optional... but taking away parts of the kernel will make it stop working... Feb 12 18:26:40 you need to have some kernel Feb 12 18:26:48 still... the kernel IS optional :P Feb 12 18:27:02 i have in mind taking whole kernel :-) Feb 12 18:27:11 LuitvD : i meant i hope it won't come by default :P Feb 12 18:27:16 ml8128: yeah, of cource it's optional :) Feb 12 18:27:17 ajturner: there's no problem with such people at all, they genuinely want to help --- and that's great! The problem is the mismatch between the perception of coding as an "easy" thing (because it's easy to change text and type "make") and the reality, which is that it's messy and takes many years to do well. Feb 12 18:27:19 yes, but without kernel you will have no calls :-) Feb 12 18:27:32 ml8128: ah, well... I wonder what will come by default... Feb 12 18:27:58 what kind of bootloader is it using? :P Feb 12 18:27:59 Morgaine - agreed, when someone says they know how to "code in HTML" it's best to point them in a simple direction Feb 12 18:28:10 Morgaine: I wouldn't call randomly changing text software develepment ;) Feb 12 18:28:13 can it dual-boot? Feb 12 18:28:24 LuitvD: What should it dual boot into? Feb 12 18:28:41 yacc: don't know... yet Feb 12 18:28:47 maybe GPE? Feb 12 18:28:49 yacc: aye, but the perception is there that it's easy. And as often as not, saying that it isn't is greeted with cries of "elitism". Feb 12 18:28:55 * LuitvD washes his mouth Feb 12 18:29:01 <[g2]> koen mickeyl did the OE environment get released ? Feb 12 18:29:11 maybe just for people to test their own kernel? Feb 12 18:29:29 LuitvD: it should use u-boot Feb 12 18:29:37 Magon: thanks :) Feb 12 18:30:31 Morgaine: Yeah, it is is elitism, because there are few professions where there are magnitudes of performance difference between poor and good performers ;) Feb 12 18:31:00 and dual-boot, to me mean 2 kernels, just booting to gpe instead of moko is more like changing some conf file Feb 12 18:31:03 That "What is Python?" line made me LOL, too. I'm not volunteering for anything, just trying to get the lay of the land, but is there a need for a 'community' project manager, to direct traffic and hook 'helpers' up with tasks they are suited to perform? Feb 12 18:31:32 <[g2]> suspence what are you interested in working on ? Feb 12 18:32:52 Well, OE is over my head, but not only do I know what python is, I use it on an almost daily basis... Feb 12 18:32:59 suspence - there is nothing to traffic yet :) Feb 12 18:33:22 I've just been hanging out here for a week or so, trying to figure out how things are shaping up. Feb 12 18:33:33 the one who cannot code, but have some basic knowledge are very good for testing Feb 12 18:34:02 <[g2]> suspence are you familiar with embedded or Linux much ? Feb 12 18:34:42 Linux, yes. Embedded is interesting, but I don't have any real world experience. Feb 12 18:34:56 man, i am totally dying to dig into the code Feb 12 18:35:08 [g2]: no, source + recipes has been delayed for a few days Feb 12 18:35:23 <[g2]> koen thx, NP Feb 12 18:35:32 Is that the level where these first 50 devs come in, close the metal stuff? Feb 12 18:36:12 <[g2]> suspence it's my take as slight outsider to the whole process Feb 12 18:36:12 Makes sense to give them hardware, if they will facilitate the hardware for higher level devs. Feb 12 18:36:45 do you thing kernel hacking will be nessesary to community, or is it done by FIC programrs? Feb 12 18:36:50 what calendar/agenda program does openmoko use by default? Feb 12 18:36:50 <[g2]> I've been using OE for the last 2.5 years on the nslu2-linux project and have a users grasp on it Feb 12 18:37:18 i'd like to write some Google Calendar implementation software, if possible :) Feb 12 18:37:38 <[g2]> the big event will be a in a couple days when the openmoko source/meta data is released Feb 12 18:37:42 (like synchronising the google calendar and the Neo calendar, that stuff) Feb 12 18:37:44 LuitvD: sounds like a very good idea Feb 12 18:38:03 yacc: hah! Only if you measure performance in lines of code/day, which is the worst possible metric. Unfortunately there is no way to teach good design in computing currently, so it's largely a combination of art and intuition and knowledge of precedents. And beginners don't have any of it. Feb 12 18:38:12 rox: I had that idea for my pda for a while now... just came to my mind to use it for this :) took a while :P Feb 12 18:38:19 rox: and thanks :) Feb 12 18:38:27 is the code available? Feb 12 18:38:35 <[g2]> maydaytx couple days Feb 12 18:38:39 ok Feb 12 18:38:43 2 or 3 days :) Feb 12 18:38:45 see counter Feb 12 18:38:52 does anybody know, will the software stack that FIC guys are preparing already contain a port of gpg? Feb 12 18:38:56 Morgaine: how long have you beed programing/ Feb 12 18:38:56 ? Feb 12 18:38:56 counter Feb 12 18:38:56 source: 2 days 16:48:07 (2.700 days); P0: 16.700; P1: 47.700; P2: 230.700 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (285) Feb 12 18:39:10 [g2]: The whole project really appeals to me, so I am looking for ways to contribute. Feb 12 18:39:12 oMorgaine: yeah, but if you include the design quality into your "measurement", the differences between good and bad developers become even more pronounced ;) Feb 12 18:39:22 rox: it will contain essencial stuff, probably no gpg Feb 12 18:39:32 it is up to us to get it there Feb 12 18:39:35 [20:09] what calendar/agenda program does openmoko use by default? Feb 12 18:39:39 :) Feb 12 18:39:40 Magon: are you familiar with what it will actually contain? Feb 12 18:39:54 <[g2]> suspence I think you'll find it a worthy endeavor :) Feb 12 18:40:03 rox: just from mailling list..basic stuff Feb 12 18:40:19 [g2]: I'm also trying to justify the cost of one of the first gen units, so I can start working with it. Feb 12 18:40:23 <[g2]> suspence your Python background will help understanding the bitbake tool which uses the meta data to build stuff Feb 12 18:40:31 Magon: one of the two tings i really need to do is integrate the mail app with gpg .. i guess i'll have to port gpg too Feb 12 18:40:40 * koen doesnt know python and understands bitbake/OE Feb 12 18:40:53 Magon: many decades, why? We're not talking about programming anyway, but about system/app design. Programming is just a tool. Feb 12 18:40:54 counter Feb 12 18:40:54 source: 2 days 16:46:09 (2.699 days); P0: 16.699; P1: 47.699; P2: 230.699 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (286) Feb 12 18:41:13 <[g2]> koen nod, it's not required, but certainly doesn't hurt :) Feb 12 18:41:13 get a room you two :P Feb 12 18:41:16 to me it seems like bitbake is based on gentoo portage Feb 12 18:41:42 *was* based Feb 12 18:41:48 suspence: well ... sean said they will be an upgrade programme for early adopters, especially those in the dev community Feb 12 18:41:50 no scrap of portage code remains Feb 12 18:42:01 otherwise it would be too 1337 to work with Feb 12 18:42:45 * LuitvD is away: running downstairs for some chocolate Feb 12 18:43:09 I don't think it can get away. Feb 12 18:43:18 Elrond, has LuitvD pinched our chocolate? Feb 12 18:45:12 i have question to programing topic, i have never code or compile something for embedded, how difficult is port some code to device like neo? Feb 12 18:45:30 most stuf doesn't need porting at all Feb 12 18:45:31 Well - fundamentally, it's X. Feb 12 18:45:42 xeyes, xlander all run. Feb 12 18:46:26 mikesh: if the code is written in a reasonably portable manner, little or no porting is required Feb 12 18:46:29 rox: upgrades sounds like a fair deal. take the early adoption fear out of the equation. Feb 12 18:46:45 It's just a plain 32-bit Linux, nothing special from a programmer's standpoint. Just has physical limits which you need to bear in mind, that's all. Feb 12 18:46:55 And not much CPU. Feb 12 18:47:09 great :) Feb 12 18:47:31 Morgaine - You make me learn new english... What's the exact meaning of "pinch out"? Feb 12 18:48:13 Elrond: our, not out ;-) Pinch == nick, steal Feb 12 18:48:39 :) Feb 12 18:48:42 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:05:57) Feb 12 18:48:57 nearly six minutes of chocolate :D Feb 12 18:49:10 * Morgaine goes off to make a mocha Feb 12 18:49:18 * rox is having soup with noodles Feb 12 18:49:30 time for some tea Feb 12 18:49:44 *arg* Need letter recognition upgrade. ;) Feb 12 18:49:46 * LuitvD is full of chocolate Feb 12 18:50:07 anyways... Feb 12 18:50:11 [20:09] what calendar/agenda program does openmoko use by default? Feb 12 18:50:16 still want to know :) Feb 12 18:50:25 openmoko calendar Feb 12 18:50:27 pinch out is a gardening term. Feb 12 18:50:33 with eds-dbus as backend Feb 12 18:50:36 To remove a bud. Feb 12 18:50:37 koen: ah... like that tells me a lot :P Feb 12 18:50:41 Morgaine - We should confiscate it back from LuitvD ;) Feb 12 18:50:48 and funambol as syncml conduit Feb 12 18:50:54 eds-dbus... *googling Feb 12 18:51:11 Elrond: does he look well defended? Feb 12 18:51:17 ah, evo ... right? Feb 12 18:51:23 ah. Feb 12 18:51:35 koen: i'm not really familiar with eds, but does it support blacklisting? or does it have blacklisting-minded capabilities? Feb 12 18:51:42 Morgaine: don't even dare to try that :P Feb 12 18:51:52 rox: blacklisting in a calendar? Feb 12 18:51:59 wahah Feb 12 18:52:09 koen: it's integrated with the address book, isn't it? Feb 12 18:52:22 You know, the biggest problem with this delay is that we've got to come up with 3 more days of bad jokes, role playing, and reading between the lines. ;-))) Feb 12 18:52:26 what... the mail part of evo? :P Feb 12 18:52:26 eds is the addressbook/calendar backend Feb 12 18:52:36 black list booking appointments on days that have an 's' in them :] Feb 12 18:52:41 LuitvD: no, the mail part is camel Feb 12 18:52:48 Morgaine - *lol* :-) Feb 12 18:52:49 okay Feb 12 18:52:56 koen: i thought eds was the backend for all ... address book, calendar ... Feb 12 18:52:58 Morgaine - No, he looks like normal subject ;) Feb 12 18:53:32 role playing... haven't seen that here yet :) Feb 12 18:53:57 * koen wants to play the BOFH role Feb 12 18:53:58 LuitvD - You're in the middle of a light version. ;) Feb 12 18:54:10 Elrond: ah, I forgot :) Feb 12 18:54:11 * rox is a level 791 elvish megawizard warrion nymph Feb 12 18:54:46 Elrond: we could try the planet-blasting hyperspace beam on him then .... but it might melt the chocolate Feb 12 18:54:51 * LuitvD is root ^^ Feb 12 18:55:18 Morgaine - Don't we have the laser-cooling for that thing in place yet? Feb 12 18:55:30 * rox picks up the root Feb 12 18:55:41 Elrond: I forgot to pay for the colling license renewal :-(((( Feb 12 18:55:47 cooling* Feb 12 18:55:52 i need it for the planet-blasting hyperspace countering spell Feb 12 18:55:54 nothing like that will ever come near my super-conducting magnet-shields Feb 12 18:56:14 (also cooling my chocolate) Feb 12 18:56:14 s/space/space beam/ Feb 12 18:56:14 rox meant: i need it for the planet-blasting hyperspace beam countering spell Feb 12 18:56:29 *giggle* he thinks we're going *through* the shield .... Feb 12 18:56:37 Okay, we first need to quench his magnets. :) Feb 12 18:56:44 Morgaine: HEHEH Feb 12 18:57:16 counter Feb 12 18:57:16 source: 2 days 16:29:47 (2.687 days); P0: 16.687; P1: 47.687; P2: 230.687 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (287) Feb 12 18:57:17 (quenching super-conducting magnets are fun. ;o) (except it's expensive.)) Feb 12 18:57:28 counter strike Feb 12 18:57:39 http://www.purepwnage.com/episodes.html Feb 12 18:57:40 damn, aloril doesn't reply to that :P Feb 12 18:58:04 Quenching the magnet is not usually fatal. Feb 12 18:58:21 All that happens is it warms up a bit, and may go thump. Feb 12 18:58:45 With massive boiling of the coolant. Feb 12 18:59:06 destroying my superconducting megamagnets will disable the cooling around my chocolate Feb 12 18:59:24 * Morgaine listens intently Feb 12 18:59:25 you'll have about 43 minutes before the chocolate gets soft Feb 12 18:59:53 I don't think you are in range to retrieve the chocolate in time Feb 12 19:00:03 * rox wants to digda fuck in Feb 12 19:00:31 agh, i'll try to stop being a whiny prick Feb 12 19:01:30 rox: well there's always plain OE for the impatient ;-) Feb 12 19:02:07 Morgaine: what i want to do is add features and integrate ... i really need the openmoko stuff for that Feb 12 19:02:43 SpeedEvil - Yes. If the coolant is He, it goes all into gas form. Quite fast. Very impressive. ;) Feb 12 19:02:46 Morgaine: the two things on my list are nice big fat featureful blacklisting and integrating gpg with the sms/mailapp Feb 12 19:03:40 I'm not sure that the danger of a split in OM was actually real ... people will hold off if asked. Everyone knows a fork is bad. But for the sake of a few days, I think it makes sense to wait. Less work overall. Feb 12 19:04:12 And very expensive. Feb 12 19:04:44 SpeedEvil - Right. He is expensive. Feb 12 19:05:01 Expensive in community time as well, although it's somewhat intangible. But we'd have extra works to bring the two strands together. Feb 12 19:06:14 Yep. forks are bad. Feb 12 19:06:47 People are looking bad at you, saying bad things behind you, etc. Feb 12 19:08:09 Just ask Djikstra, those philosophers did bad things with forks. Feb 12 19:08:10 Elrond: yeah, i remember reading about netbsd ... if it weren't for the openbsd fork, they might be a lot more relevant now Feb 12 19:08:10 rox - Yeah, that's one example. Feb 12 19:09:06 Morgaine - Okay... I'll confuse LuitvD by quenching his magnets, you use the beam with a middle enegery, so the choco does not melt? ;) Feb 12 19:09:14 and a very good one too ... those two projects have been eating away each other's developers ... it alsotook them a long while to start sharing code Feb 12 19:09:50 koen: is evo stripped much ? Feb 12 19:09:54 rox - Do you know, how long it took them to share code? Feb 12 19:10:07 koen: does it still support EPlugins for example? Feb 12 19:10:20 Elrond: a few years at least Feb 12 19:10:42 Okay, that's still acceptable. I know projects, that haven't done it after 6 years. Feb 12 19:10:49 Elrond: if you count the start of openbsd when theo was kicked out Feb 12 19:11:02 Elrond: I'm not worried about the melting, as I'll polarize the beam to be extra cold on the chocolate side and hot on the other. What worries me though is trigger his defence AI -- COCOICE. Feb 12 19:11:39 I've been on the bad side of COCICE before ... and it's not pleasant. Feb 12 19:11:48 COCOICE? Feb 12 19:12:09 * LuitvD grins Feb 12 19:12:16 Yeah, real bad mocha-fueled ICE AI. Feb 12 19:12:34 coco ice t? Feb 12 19:12:42 :P Feb 12 19:13:09 Morgaine - That's why I want to confuse his AI by quenching the magnets. ;) Feb 12 19:14:04 go on guys, this is turning into good material for my standup :P Feb 12 19:14:42 rox - You need to pay Morgaine and me license fees. Feb 12 19:15:06 damn proprietary jokes Feb 12 19:15:18 Elrond: i don't pay license fees to politicians, why should i pay you? Feb 12 19:15:21 Elrond: don't think it'll work, COCOICE v1.93 was decaffed without announcement in the ChangeLog ... but I've got a contact in the steering committee. Feb 12 19:15:56 LuitvD: it's not evo, it's eds-dbus Feb 12 19:16:29 Morgaine - Okay... we need to work on that... I'll get some real food for better thinking. (my cook finished the dinner ;) ). Feb 12 19:16:33 koen: ah, okay Feb 12 19:16:39 Ditto ;-) Feb 12 19:17:17 koen: does it happen to be Embedded EDS? Feb 12 19:19:02 Hey, wasn't February the "Write a novel in a month" month? Think we've got an outline ... ;-) Feb 12 19:26:33 Writing novels seems to be like computing though. Ideas are 2-a-penny, but designing a coherent and elegant structure and implementing it in a way that the reader/user appreciates is very hard, and rare. Let alone the subsequent maintainer ... and novelists don't have that problem. Feb 12 19:29:09 heh Feb 12 19:29:21 the gnome dudes are saying my whining isn't productive Feb 12 19:29:35 *after* it delivered what I wanted Feb 12 19:29:44 :D Feb 12 19:30:04 #define unproductive productive Feb 12 19:30:15 the rest of the mail worries me more than that Feb 12 19:30:16 That's fanboys for ya. 3rd up against the wall come the revolution ;-) Feb 12 19:30:20 "gtk+ is old and fat" Feb 12 19:30:52 sounds like the cairo team plans a revolution Feb 12 19:30:57 perhaps an own toolkit Feb 12 19:31:00 wouldn't surprise me Feb 12 19:31:03 mickeyl: the biggest problem with gtk+ is its problem of API stability Feb 12 19:31:31 qt tosses api out of the window every release, so it can leap forward everytime Feb 12 19:32:28 (2.10 breaks api with floating references, which sucks) Feb 12 19:32:44 API instability is usually a sign that the API is too low level for the project's goals. Feb 12 19:34:19 mickey|dinner: I'd like to see a toolkit that takes full advantage of xcb Feb 12 19:34:55 <- xcb fanboy Feb 12 19:36:02 Imagine if the syscalls in Unix apps actually linked directly to kernel routines ... half of user space would break on every minor release. Feb 12 19:36:20 Mmmm, mocha Feb 12 19:38:21 koen: hi there Feb 12 19:38:33 hey cworth Feb 12 19:38:59 cworth: any ETA on 1.3.14? Feb 12 19:39:13 koen: If nothing else, I can say that I'm pleased that the cairo community has made a good impression on you. Feb 12 19:39:44 (And for what it's worth, I'm also very interested in XCB---it doesn't hurt that Bart and Jamey are local and good friends either...) Feb 12 19:40:12 koen: It absolutely has to happen today---it's been too long. Feb 12 19:40:31 3 weeks :) Feb 12 19:41:25 1.3.12 was pretty well received, it make gtk+ a lot snappier on arm Feb 12 19:48:28 1.3.12 of what? Feb 12 19:48:38 cairo Feb 12 19:48:46 Ahh. Feb 12 19:49:07 Elrond: cworth is the cairo master ;) Feb 12 19:49:45 CM - Okay. I'll know, where to put my curses, when cairo breaks. ;o))) Feb 12 19:50:48 Elrond: Yeah, you can definitely blame most all the bugs (and there are plenty) on me. Feb 12 19:51:15 cworth: Still, great work. Thanks :) Feb 12 19:51:35 cworth - Huh, that was not meant for real. No pun intended. :) Feb 12 19:51:52 koen: I don't know that 1.3.14 will affect embedded as much---but having the locking fixes for multi-threaded cairo usage, and having PDF output with selectable text should be very well-received improvements. Feb 12 19:52:28 Elrond: No worries. I'm still smiling. :-) Feb 12 19:52:38 cworth: I'm still trying to find volunteers to benchmark between the 'splash' and 'cairo' poppler backends Feb 12 19:53:09 since http://www.irextechnologies.com/products/iliad uses gtk+ and poppler Feb 12 19:53:48 koen: the eds-dbus that openmoko uses... is it the one in Embedded Evolution Data Server? Feb 12 19:54:19 LuitvD: "embedded eds" is the marketing name for it Feb 12 19:54:55 koen: okay, then I'll start to take a look at that... trying to write a useful plugin for that :) Feb 12 19:55:40 What's eds-dbus anyway? Feb 12 19:55:53 (hmm... i probably should google... except google does not like me.) Feb 12 19:57:08 the embedded port of evo Feb 12 19:57:21 Elrond: Evolution Data Server without corba/orbit Feb 12 19:57:28 LuitvD: no, not evo, eds Feb 12 19:57:36 ah, sorry :P Feb 12 19:58:04 koen - Ahh... all that new cool stuff I kept ignoring. ;) Feb 12 19:58:45 if only gconf dropped corba.... Feb 12 19:59:08 *duck* write your own gconf. ;o) Feb 12 19:59:21 gconf-dbus already exists Feb 12 19:59:29 but it's stuck at 2.6.14.something Feb 12 19:59:43 koen: eds-dbus isn't that diffrent from eds is it? If it isn't, I can just write an EDS plugin, and use that on eds-dbus too Feb 12 19:59:59 <_-InFeRnO-_> no src yet ;( Feb 12 20:00:00 LuitvD: that's the idea Feb 12 20:00:03 <_-InFeRnO-_> anyone knows why Feb 12 20:00:50 _-InFeRnO-_ - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html Feb 12 20:01:25 (brought to you by faq::why-delay. ;) ) Feb 12 20:02:03 koen - gconf-dbus comunicates via dbus, or what? Feb 12 20:02:14 Elrond: yes, via dbus instead of corba Feb 12 20:02:26 corba needs orbit2, which is pretty huge Feb 12 20:02:33 <_-InFeRnO-_> 3 days?!??!?!??!!?!?!? Feb 12 20:02:37 <_-InFeRnO-_> that's horror Feb 12 20:03:10 someone shoudl convince toshiba to port openmoko to the G900 Feb 12 20:03:25 that one is ultra neat Feb 12 20:04:17 <_-InFeRnO-_> OpenMoko will be OSS, thus we could port (noooooo) OM to anything Feb 12 20:04:30 <_-InFeRnO-_> people here hate the word port Feb 12 20:04:43 in that case porting is even correct Feb 12 20:04:46 that's actually proper use of 'port' :) Feb 12 20:05:02 <_-InFeRnO-_> yes Feb 12 20:05:07 <_-InFeRnO-_> but it annoys people Feb 12 20:05:15 technically i guess it would be more of a linux than an openmoko port Feb 12 20:06:12 buz: and gsmlib and adjusting the gui for a different resolution/dpi Feb 12 20:06:45 well it's 3inch wvga Feb 12 20:06:49 dpi shouldnt be THAT different Feb 12 20:07:16 300dpi Feb 12 20:07:42 (neo) Feb 12 20:07:54 i know Feb 12 20:08:14 the toshiba is likely a bit higher even Feb 12 20:08:14 285 Feb 12 20:09:01 Huh, really. 285 dpi is a lot. Feb 12 20:09:21 Can people with normal eyes see the pixels there? Feb 12 20:09:29 yes. Feb 12 20:09:30 probably not Feb 12 20:09:35 At 15cm. Feb 12 20:10:07 i want a 300dpi 20" screen Feb 12 20:10:35 buz - Run normal firefox on that. You wont see anything with all that text-as-images. ;) Feb 12 20:11:02 I guess toolkits will grow a pixel doubler for images Feb 12 20:11:02 i dont care for most sites who use crap like that Feb 12 20:11:03 then use opera which supports functional scaling ;) Feb 12 20:11:21 khtml supposedly will get that "soon" Feb 12 20:11:34 i just saw the commit Feb 12 20:11:41 morricone - Is opera free as in speach now? Feb 12 20:11:57 sort off Feb 12 20:12:00 I can't beat that argument ;) Feb 12 20:12:06 you can download the opera sdk Feb 12 20:12:48 koen - To cite a few words from morricone: "I have this thing"... of not installing binary-only-crap. ;) Feb 12 20:13:12 Elrond: amen to that Feb 12 20:13:18 hello :) Feb 12 20:13:41 mhh Feb 12 20:13:51 then get me twinview working without nvidia blob Feb 12 20:14:42 that and vmware is about the only binary only thing i have Feb 12 20:14:44 does anyone know how one qualifies as a developer to be able get hold of a "Neos" in March? Feb 12 20:14:50 buz - Just don't buy hw, that needs binary-only-crap. ;) Feb 12 20:14:55 anyone paying 350$ Feb 12 20:15:10 Elrond: when i bought this notebook, all of them did Feb 12 20:15:26 Oh, laptops. ;) Feb 12 20:15:37 buz, oh right, and expected to be able to handle undocumented features ? Feb 12 20:15:54 buz - vmware... did you try virtualbox? Feb 12 20:16:11 muelas: what? i knew i could use the nvidia drivers Feb 12 20:16:21 they were about the only halfway decent ones back then Feb 12 20:16:41 can i run winwoes in virtualbox? Feb 12 20:17:19 .. as in it may be buggy .. Feb 12 20:18:10 i theoretically could run it in kemu Feb 12 20:18:14 but that's slow as molasses Feb 12 20:18:51 buz - windows should work in vbox. At least w2k does reportedly. (a friend uses it.) Feb 12 20:18:58 If you have a recent intel/amd cpu you can run windows in xen Feb 12 20:19:06 i dont have VT Feb 12 20:19:25 CPU with VT is cheaper than vmware workstation Feb 12 20:19:27 mhh virtualbox has screenshots of vista install Feb 12 20:19:41 yes however vmware player is free as in beer Feb 12 20:20:19 vmware server also is free as in beer. ;) Feb 12 20:20:30 vbox is free as in beer and speach. ;) Feb 12 20:20:48 qemu rulez Feb 12 20:21:04 can virtualbox use vmware images Feb 12 20:21:07 confirmed Feb 12 20:21:32 buz - Don't know. Feb 12 20:21:58 ah well i'll try it after my exams are over Feb 12 20:26:43 can't believe fedora just crashed on me :S Feb 12 20:32:18 mhh so there are 4 times as many alcoholics in europe than in the us Feb 12 20:32:23 interesting Feb 12 20:33:34 Does that survey count russia to belong to europe? ;) Feb 12 20:33:54 that is actually something i deduced from that mailing list post Feb 12 20:34:07 i think france takes a big part. of that.. Feb 12 20:34:16 but alas, i wont go all correlation is not causation on him Feb 12 20:35:49 heck how many people below 21 drink alcohol in the us? 90%? Feb 12 20:36:05 100%? Feb 12 20:36:10 150% Feb 12 20:36:28 how old are they when they go to college? 19? Feb 12 20:37:00 17 and 18 Feb 12 20:37:01 buz: worse, they learn to drive before they learn to drink Feb 12 20:37:12 no they dont Feb 12 20:37:20 americans got my fraternity to go dry, which annoys me :/ Feb 12 20:37:22 not according to what i'm told they dont learn it Feb 12 20:37:30 they just do it Feb 12 20:37:35 :P Feb 12 20:38:15 a dry fraternity? Feb 12 20:38:22 isnt that some sort of oxymoron Feb 12 20:39:36 well the house is dry Feb 12 20:40:17 which means no more parties but everyone turns a blind eye if you bring in a beer Feb 12 20:42:47 hell has just frozen over, yet another time: "Access Linux Platform for mobile devices goes gold" Feb 12 20:46:41 Diversity! Feb 12 20:47:03 can someone maybe give me a fill in about the situation with the neo at the moment, what is the status of the hardware, are the developers still building? Feb 12 20:47:40 Hardware is finished, as far as I know. Feb 12 20:48:06 thanks :) Feb 12 20:48:22 a lot of people developing software for openmoko yet? Feb 12 20:48:35 Everyone's waiting for the souce. Feb 12 20:48:51 btw. is there any connection to the maemo (nokia) platform? Feb 12 20:49:08 well, anyone could start on a simple gtk app, run it in xoo Feb 12 20:49:12 They both use GTK, that's about it. Feb 12 20:49:22 And maybe a handful of other apps. Feb 12 20:49:52 and eds-dbus Feb 12 20:50:13 okey, they have the same processor, I thought that that would be a bit handy Feb 12 20:50:13 .. Feb 12 20:50:29 same processor? Feb 12 20:50:42 the n700 and the neo Feb 12 20:50:43 the moko doesn't have an omap1710 nor omap2420 Feb 12 20:50:50 I guess he means architecture. Feb 12 20:50:59 yes, sry Feb 12 20:51:18 Well, I can see some stuff being ported from one machine to the other without that many effort. Feb 12 20:51:24 DId I say ported? Feb 12 20:51:27 :D Feb 12 20:51:29 s3c2410 is armv4, omap1710 is armv5, omap 2420 armv6 Feb 12 20:51:38 So generally, arm. Feb 12 20:51:39 for instruction set Feb 12 20:52:20 okey, I am still a beginner, so sry for any stupid posts by me Feb 12 20:52:23 This ACCESS linux thing doesn't look completely busted, but emulating the old PalmOS GUI seems rather... pointless. Feb 12 20:52:50 PalmOS GUI rocks. Feb 12 20:53:12 It most definitely does not! Feb 12 20:53:59 ;) Feb 12 20:55:47 <_-InFeRnO-_> I prefer the SonyEricsson gui Feb 12 20:56:34 Vista gui also does not rock Feb 12 20:56:47 but that is off topic! Feb 12 20:56:50 elvis rocks Feb 12 20:57:00 koen sometimes rocks Feb 12 20:57:51 * jaebird likes collecting rocks Feb 12 21:00:34 <_-InFeRnO-_> btw, I wonder how does the phone get GPRS and GSM conectivity Feb 12 21:01:31 via a TI GSM module Feb 12 21:01:31 thru an antenna :) Feb 12 21:02:23 <_-InFeRnO-_> hm, and how the module is connected to the SoC (probably dumb question) Feb 12 21:02:30 <_-InFeRnO-_> i mean, interface Feb 12 21:03:02 * Demitar__ howls at the moon. Don't feel like waiting another month... :) Feb 12 21:03:11 the ti chipset (an arm7tdmi) is connected via uart. Feb 12 21:03:17 <_-InFeRnO-_> a ha Feb 12 21:03:20 <_-InFeRnO-_> thanks Feb 12 21:04:17 a seperate arm chip for recieving GSM data? Feb 12 21:04:28 or is that the main chip? Feb 12 21:04:35 the bluetooth chip is probably arm7tdmi as well Feb 12 21:04:55 for expandability? Feb 12 21:05:06 LuitvD - our cpu is armv4, and the rest of the hardware happens to run on other arms, that we cdon't control. Feb 12 21:05:13 (next generations of the protocols and stuff? Feb 12 21:05:27 arm7 is probably cheaper than coming up with your own asic Feb 12 21:05:40 yeah, I know Feb 12 21:05:47 but can it be upgraded? the firmware? Feb 12 21:06:03 The gsm module's firmware can be upgraded. Feb 12 21:06:08 so that the GSM chip can understand HDSPA or something Feb 12 21:06:17 <_-InFeRnO-_> i wonder how would a candybar-style version of the phone look Feb 12 21:06:17 But only thru some weird technique, I understand. Feb 12 21:06:33 <_-InFeRnO-_> (i dislike using stylus) Feb 12 21:06:39 Elrond: via the headset socket Feb 12 21:06:55 :| Feb 12 21:06:59 koen - Yep. Which I don't understand. Feb 12 21:07:07 strange... Feb 12 21:07:28 koen - Is the headset socket connected to the audio _and_ the {gsm module's upgrade port} ? Feb 12 21:07:42 Elrond: I guess so Feb 12 21:07:50 (just repeating stuff I heard frm FIC dudes) Feb 12 21:08:12 Okay, you probably heard the same as I. ;) Feb 12 21:08:32 And this design confuses me... analog and digital on the same socket. Feb 12 21:09:11 you know, there is this technology where digital data is encoded into analog form :) Feb 12 21:09:11 it probably detects resistance and does the appropriate stuff Feb 12 21:09:11 It means, that I could do a remote firmware upgrade by playing the firmware to a headset using neo-user?! Feb 12 21:09:11 (but I dunno) Feb 12 21:09:19 it will be cool to grain control over other ARMs and have little cluster in phone Feb 12 21:09:26 Elrond: maybe, it probably has some handshaking Feb 12 21:09:37 Elrond, this is how the ipod shuffle (current gen) is currently setup Feb 12 21:09:37 Elrond: I hope it doesnt support FOTA Feb 12 21:09:47 or it has some seperate pins for programming the chip Feb 12 21:10:03 * koen thinks FOTA is evil Feb 12 21:10:10 What's FOTA? Feb 12 21:10:17 Flash Over The Air Feb 12 21:10:24 remote firmware upgrades Feb 12 21:10:35 aka carrier evilness Feb 12 21:10:48 Ahhh. Feb 12 21:11:09 koen - As I understood the fic dudes, the headset port is the only port. Feb 12 21:11:31 and a usb port Feb 12 21:11:41 and a jtag port Feb 12 21:11:43 <_-InFeRnO-_> if my provider would pay the 3G trafic for FOTA, it's fine Feb 12 21:11:51 port, that allows firmware upgrade of gsm modules. Feb 12 21:12:12 as in: no fota. Feb 12 21:16:20 maybe it's better that way... Feb 12 21:16:48 I think the native arm programming pins are just routed out to the headset connector... Feb 12 21:17:09 so that if flashing the chip fails, you can try again... Feb 12 21:17:12 Yep. It allows upgrading the gsm firmware in the FIC retail shop, without them needing to touch _your linux_. ;) Feb 12 21:17:46 and it makes sure that flashing by software isn't possible ;) Feb 12 21:18:06 (or you should have an ARM programmer, and the right connector pinout) Feb 12 21:18:21 and, most importantly, the firmware :) Feb 12 21:19:46 tihi. Feb 12 21:20:20 We have the audio codec at the headset port, so we can sample the uploaded firmware while the neo is gsmfirmware-upgraded in the retail shop. ;o) Feb 12 21:20:43 (of course, it's heavy undersampling. We need many samplings to get the bits of the firmware ;o) ) Feb 12 21:21:52 the open phone seems less open suddenly, if we cannot touch the firmware... :P Feb 12 21:23:52 ah well, many device manufacturers keep the firmware for themselves Feb 12 21:24:20 ml8128 - It was clear from the start, that the gsmmodule is closed. Feb 12 21:24:29 ml8128 - And I can understand that part. Feb 12 21:24:50 completely? Feb 12 21:25:07 I can see the motivation... but understand the reason... no... Feb 12 21:25:17 Elrond: oh, you meant gsm firmware ? seems i missed that part being afk :P *reads back the log* Feb 12 21:25:19 I don't fully understand why Feb 12 21:25:56 ml8128: yes, the firmware of the chip responsible for picking up the GSM/GPRS/etc. signal Feb 12 21:25:57 LuitvD: it's not legal to distribute a hackable gsm stack for use on public networks... too, too easy for someone to make a stack that doesn't comply with the gsm spec Feb 12 21:26:11 LuitvD - It's the same story with the wifi stuff. frequency regulations, etc. Feb 12 21:26:21 hehe. Feb 12 21:26:29 hmm... okay, I didn't say anything :) Feb 12 21:26:31 who cares for freq regulations. Feb 12 21:26:32 :) Feb 12 21:26:33 enaugh reasons Feb 12 21:26:49 how could _that_ be the problem of closing the driver? Feb 12 21:26:50 LuitvD: of course, what you do in the privacy of your own handset... Feb 12 21:27:17 intel just dumped their non-free freq. reg. daemon for ipw3945abg ,,, Feb 12 21:27:52 so_solid_moo - dumped as in what? Feb 12 21:28:06 Elrond: dumped as in, no longer needed in their latest driver Feb 12 21:28:50 Ahh. Feb 12 21:29:00 So now anybody can use any frequency?! Feb 12 21:29:07 How did they get that through? Feb 12 21:29:30 so_solid_moo: well, they moved it into their firmware. Feb 12 21:29:36 not the same as dumping the requirement. Feb 12 21:29:57 hmm, something weird is happening to my permissions here... (my linux installation) ... leaving now... Feb 12 21:30:15 if you don't see me again for a couple of days... then my permissions fucked up :) Feb 12 21:30:33 (firefox doesn't get any permissions in my homedir :S ) Feb 12 21:30:43 bye y'all Feb 12 21:31:24 cjb: where do you specify the regulatory domain to the firmware? Feb 12 21:32:22 heh, somebody wants to render 2d polygons and bmps using opengl on the neo Feb 12 21:37:54 so_solid_moo: dunno. Feb 12 22:06:35 Morgaine - Stop me from trying to fix people again.... :-| Feb 12 22:08:38 Elrond: but it's so much fun watching the fireworks! Feb 12 22:08:38 * Stephmw comfords Elrond Feb 12 22:08:38 and *comforts too Feb 12 22:08:53 !counter Feb 12 22:09:30 counter Feb 12 22:09:30 source: 2 days 13:17:32 (2.554 days); P0: 16.554; P1: 47.554; P2: 230.554 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (288) Feb 12 22:09:36 Stephmw - Not, if you like 60% of what those people do. Then it's no fun trying to fix unfixable people. Feb 12 22:10:29 noone's unfixable. but it might take quite some effort. Feb 12 22:11:26 * Kero wonders what echelon makes of "fixing people" ... Feb 12 22:11:55 Kero - Like traveling over and using "planet-busting hyperspace beam weapons" ? ;o) Feb 12 22:12:18 so... permanent :) Feb 12 22:14:08 * Kero will be fixed in roughly 2.5 days Feb 12 22:14:18 http://www.engadget.com/2007/02/12/nokias-e90-communicator-launched/ Feb 12 22:14:33 Kero - Well, it can be used as a threatening thing ;) Feb 12 22:16:30 perhaps the ppl need so much fixing they'll yield to the threat :P Feb 12 22:21:49 Kero - *lol* Feb 12 23:02:54 Hello... Feb 12 23:04:17 Night people. Feb 12 23:04:20 Night Morgaine Feb 12 23:08:32 Anyone here know Motorola cell phones? Feb 12 23:08:59 I need a phone where I can load a Java app Feb 12 23:09:04 Have access to GPS Feb 12 23:09:27 Be able to display a UI to the user Feb 12 23:09:48 Be able to connect with a server. Feb 12 23:10:04 Inexpensive phone. Feb 12 23:10:54 Dunno. Feb 12 23:11:13 Can't wait until September+ Feb 12 23:11:21 September2D? Feb 12 23:11:31 2D? Feb 12 23:11:39 Typo. Feb 12 23:11:56 End of September, but that date has gotta slip... Feb 12 23:12:00 Oh. Feb 12 23:12:15 I was concntrating on end of marchish. Feb 12 23:12:45 I have a customer that won't wait Feb 12 23:13:18 Strike while the iron is hot, and all that... Feb 12 23:14:14 Ah. Feb 12 23:14:42 Striking customers with hot irons does tend to put them off in most cases though. Feb 12 23:15:20 heh Feb 12 23:15:22 * SpeedEvil ponders. Feb 12 23:26:24 is there an irc for motorola cell phones? Feb 12 23:28:34 What are the magic words I can see on a box that'll bridge bluetooth and IP for the neo? Feb 12 23:28:53 * SpeedEvil not done BT before. Feb 12 23:31:23 BNEP! Feb 12 23:34:31 SpeedEvil: NSLU2 ;-) Feb 12 23:43:46 Sigh. 30% more in UK on ebay Feb 13 00:16:25 SpeedEvil surely you can use *nix + a bluetooth dongle? Feb 13 00:20:41 True. Feb 13 00:20:53 I was wondering if there was a cheap dedicated box solution. Feb 13 00:21:04 Cheap/small Feb 13 00:21:09 /low power Feb 13 00:21:50 As I need at least 3 nodes for my house. Feb 13 00:22:13 And strings of powered USB hubs get rather silly after a while. Feb 13 00:22:29 You mean something like an access point? Feb 13 00:22:35 yes. Feb 13 00:22:48 SpeedEvil: NSLU2 ;-) Feb 13 00:22:52 yeah. Feb 13 00:22:52 ;) Feb 13 00:23:02 They are annoyingly more expensive in the UK than US. Feb 13 00:23:07 30% on ebay. Feb 13 00:23:32 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=001&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&viewitem=&item=110090437610&rd=1&rd=1 Feb 13 00:23:36 oops Feb 13 00:23:53 funny looking NSLU2 .... Feb 13 00:24:34 Yeah - I'm also doing house renovations. Feb 13 00:26:38 * CoreDump|afk checks the nslu2 specs Feb 13 00:27:28 CoreDump|afk: I use NSLU2 + USBBT100 dongle for Treo650 BT access point at home and at work. Feb 13 00:27:45 interesting! Feb 13 00:27:56 (via dund and ppp right now, but will be via pand when I get a Neo) Feb 13 00:28:00 but the dongle eats up one possible HDD slot right? Feb 13 00:28:16 you can use a hub if you need more than two slots Feb 13 00:28:44 interesting indeed Feb 13 00:29:17 CoreDump|afk: I'm building "MokoSlug" firmware specifically designed to be the server companion for the Neo., Feb 13 00:29:27 (it's a cut-down Angstrom port) Feb 13 00:29:37 =D Feb 13 00:29:40 we're also trying to get OpenWRT running on the NSLU2. Feb 13 00:29:47 Well - the easy way to get a girls attention without any risk of embarrasment is chloroform. Feb 13 00:29:49 oops Feb 13 00:30:05 Sigh. Feb 13 00:30:15 * SpeedEvil needs to fix his '1' key. Feb 13 00:30:19 rwhitby: umm what would be the point of *-wrt on the slug? *scratches head`* Feb 13 00:30:21 Hmm - bathtub, cholorform. I wonder if SpeedEvil is a serial killer ... Feb 13 00:30:48 I was trying to point out that there are no easy embarrasment free ways to ask girls out... Feb 13 00:30:53 CoreDump|afk: small portable firmware that allows you to run a lot of stuff directly from flash Feb 13 00:30:54 (to someone else) Feb 13 00:31:04 CoreDump|afk: put a bluetooth dongle in one port, and a wifi dongle in the other. Use OpenWRT to bridge and route. Feb 13 00:31:44 (it also makes more sense on slug-like devices like the Iomega NAS100d or the D-Link DSM-G600 or the Freecom FSG-3) Feb 13 00:32:19 bleh damn you rwhitby. I'm feeling that typical itch raise which usually only ends after spending money for shiny new hardware Feb 13 00:32:24 I wonder when someone is going to come up with a 'pure' linux box cheap. Feb 13 00:32:32 5V powered hub-like. Feb 13 00:32:46 But with a tiny linux box inside. Feb 13 00:37:53 1" OLED desplay on top. Feb 13 00:46:31 !praise mickeyl Feb 13 00:46:32 * cdbot2 bows down to mickeyl and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 13 00:49:39 What he do? Feb 13 00:49:49 heh Feb 13 00:50:09 does the bot just listen to CoreDump|afk i wonder Feb 13 00:50:12 he kinda made the day for some of us ;) Feb 13 00:50:14 !praise thedaniel Feb 13 00:50:14 * cdbot2 bows down to thedaniel and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 13 00:50:17 yesss Feb 13 00:50:25 he's the openmoko chief software platform architect dude, and an all round good guy Feb 13 00:50:38 !praise the lord Feb 13 00:50:40 * cdbot2 bows down to the lord and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 13 00:51:10 !praise no one, eats a banana Feb 13 00:51:10 * cdbot2 bows down to no one, eats a banana and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Feb 13 00:51:22 Nice! Feb 13 00:51:27 !welcome someone Feb 13 00:51:30 hrm Feb 13 00:51:52 what kind of bot do we have here i wonder - hand-rolled or one of the more popular ones Feb 13 00:52:26 there are several IIRC Feb 13 00:52:26 -cdbot2- VERSION eggdrop v1.6.17 Feb 13 00:54:40 !seen thedaniel Feb 13 00:54:43 thedaniel, go look in a mirror. Feb 13 00:54:46 lol Feb 13 00:54:51 !seen alp Feb 13 00:54:53 thedaniel, alp is right here! Feb 13 00:54:58 !seen Tv Feb 13 00:55:01 thedaniel, Tv is right here! Feb 13 00:55:07 thedaniel: dood Feb 13 00:55:08 ok i will stop spamming the channel now Feb 13 00:55:24 ... i have a thing for bots Feb 13 00:55:28 * thedaniel hangs head in shame Feb 13 00:55:46 thedaniel: you can play w/ him in private messages Feb 13 00:55:58 thedaniel: I think there's a latin word for that. Feb 13 01:49:50 unidling, so still no update? Feb 13 02:01:31 Hey Hey Feb 13 02:01:36 Is it finally live? Feb 13 02:02:04 couple more days iirc Feb 13 02:05:45 ah Feb 13 02:06:00 what put them behind? Feb 13 02:07:48 AcidBurn1: see the lists/planet Feb 13 02:07:54 spending too much time answering stupid questions that could've been found easily using "the internet" Feb 13 02:12:20 lol Feb 13 02:12:47 Can we get a demo of it? Feb 13 02:15:18 a demo of "the internet"? sure ;-) Feb 13 02:30:37 has anyone gotten stuck building linux-libc-headers-2.6.18-r1? looks like the patch isn't applied properly (Applying patch arm-syscall-define.patch) Feb 13 02:59:37 Sigh. A consequence of the insulation work (foil backed plasterboard) I'm doing will be that I'll have no mobile reception in the house at all. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Feb 13 03:00:00 2007