**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 13 03:00:01 2007 Feb 13 03:00:01 If only there was a cheap GSM repeater. Feb 13 03:03:51 can't it get through foil? Feb 13 03:04:12 put soem microwave sized holes in it Feb 13 03:10:42 I don't know if it's available in the UK, but I just got a Hawkins WiFi repeater for the upstairs. Feb 13 03:10:51 about 80USD Feb 13 03:11:07 You tell it which SSID to repeat Feb 13 03:11:13 works pretty good. Feb 13 03:11:46 I still have to fiddle my WinXP system for about 20min every time I power it up. Just to get it to connect. Feb 13 03:11:56 POS **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Feb 13 04:20:15 2007 Feb 13 04:43:46 has anyone gotten stuck building linux-libc-headers-2.6.18-r1? looks like the patch isn't applied properly (Applying patch arm-syscall-define.patch) Feb 13 05:47:16 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/smartphones/first-shot-toshiba-g900-smartphone-235658.php Feb 13 06:03:21 rwhitby: That's a nice phone :) Feb 13 06:06:40 it seems new phones fro Nokia will be GPRS class A, N90 being one: http://europe.nokia.com/A4346043 Feb 13 06:07:34 I guess it has less dpi than Neo1973 though and of course its missing most important feature: source Feb 13 06:08:47 still.. I was waiting for new communicator 0.5 year ago, but not interested anymore that Neo1973 will be there (and even less than 0.5x of price ;-) ) Feb 13 06:17:30 not seen this here yet, I guess most have seen it at http://planet.openmoko.org/ about 7 months in this project: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/12#20070212-moko_delay Feb 13 06:24:11 aloril: Heh, just read it but through kernelplanet :) Feb 13 06:27:52 I wish kerneplanet contributors used categories. Feb 13 06:28:29 e.g. the second entry on there right now simply shouldn't be there. Feb 13 06:28:40 rwhitby: True, and that guy talking about dwarves never stop Feb 13 06:29:26 But the problem there is that I just don't get it.. ;) Feb 13 06:48:30 counter Feb 13 06:48:30 source: 2 days 04:38:30 (2.193 days); P0: 16.193; P1: 47.193; P2: 230.193 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (289) Feb 13 06:48:47 lower limit is probably about 19h (time Sean lands at NY) Feb 13 06:57:17 so someone actually makes a dual sim phone http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/89994741/ Feb 13 07:07:06 hmm... would dual radios allow 2x speed with suitable software? (or would radios that close interfere with each other too much) Feb 13 07:22:31 aloril: possibly when using two different operators atleast (as they would be using different frequencies) Feb 13 07:28:42 you'll be using different frequencies everytime you make a call Feb 13 07:28:52 the cell tower allocates a small band for each handset Feb 13 07:29:14 for those looking at Java ME on OpenMoko, seems at least one person from Sun is/will be involved: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003245.html Feb 13 07:29:48 aloril: that person has been saying that for months, and we still have seen *nothing* Feb 13 07:30:05 "hollow barrels sound the loudest" Feb 13 07:30:29 koen: OK ;-) Feb 13 07:35:58 * aloril suspects there will be big jump in "stuff getting done" once OpenMoko parts are released (even if this isn't actually needed for many projects) Feb 13 07:36:12 * koen hopes so Feb 13 07:36:21 even more when actual hardware is available (-"-) Feb 13 07:37:49 * koen wants webkit on the neo Feb 13 07:38:25 seems to be popular, Nokia and Apple both use it AFAIC Feb 13 07:38:36 and kde Feb 13 07:41:56 actually webkit and khtml aren't entirely the same Feb 13 07:43:25 * aloril meant iPhone with Apple comment Feb 13 07:43:45 apple's Safari browser is using webkit as well Feb 13 07:44:07 awful browser though Feb 13 07:44:29 it's pretty neat, as long as you don't add too many rss feeds Feb 13 07:45:05 feels jsut like osx to me. too dumb. Feb 13 07:48:39 hmm.. Neo1973 being in mass storage mode (for easy access by windows machines) is problematic: I guess needs to present virtual drive or something .. (mass storage being block level access thing) Feb 13 07:51:52 s/window machines/anything supporting USB mass storage/ Feb 13 07:52:04 s/windows machines/anything supporting USB mass storage/ Feb 13 07:52:05 aloril meant: hmm.. Neo1973 being in mass storage mode (for easy access by anything supporting USB mass storage) is problematic: I guess needs to present virtual drive or something .. (mass storage being block level access thing) Feb 13 07:53:57 you could just have seded that sed thing, maybe .) Feb 13 07:54:29 xkr47: hehe, yeah Feb 13 07:55:06 anyway, reason I mentioned windows machines is "really easy way to change ringtone/background/etc.." ie.. "just" marketing thing Feb 13 07:58:02 "There was an original plan by FIC (not OpenMoko) to also sell the sameGTA01* hardware with Windows CE. That plan seems currently on halt" http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-February/003277.html Feb 13 08:00:28 aloril, oh.. Feb 13 08:00:36 morning Feb 13 08:01:11 morning Feb 13 08:01:20 * xkr47 serves breakfast to hrw :) Feb 13 08:02:24 xkr47: scrambled eggs with bakon please Feb 13 08:03:23 xkr47: that "really easy to change ringtone/background/etc.." is not any official thing, just idea I though (and has been said in one way or another in ML lists too) Feb 13 08:03:55 (based on that that you can change those in many existing phones too, but most people still buy them because that is easier) Feb 13 08:05:50 hrw, certainly :) Feb 13 08:06:46 hehe, will there be a music composer included in the phone.. if not, that's one project that someone could take on :) Feb 13 08:10:22 just quick google, but wonder if any of these is already in OE or easy to modify so works well on small screen: http://www.icewalkers.com/Linux/Software/Multimedia/Audio/Music-Composers/1550/ Feb 13 08:10:40 maybe overkill ;-) Feb 13 08:11:45 * xkr47 thinks the stylus could be used in composing music Feb 13 08:11:50 or finger, whatever Feb 13 08:12:05 drag up & down in realtime to generate higher & lower tones :) Feb 13 08:13:45 or USB-midi dongle and use real keyboard Feb 13 08:14:02 broadcast music live over gprs ;) Feb 13 08:14:30 hehe, using midi should be plenty of bandwidth Feb 13 08:24:09 http://www.theunwired.net/?itemid=3614 Feb 13 08:24:17 I want one of those with linux :D Feb 13 08:27:28 hrw, openmoko! Feb 13 08:31:22 it have Intel Bulverde 520MHz Feb 13 08:31:35 my home server have 400mhz cpu :O Feb 13 08:31:38 its crazy Feb 13 08:31:52 Mhz != computing power Feb 13 08:31:59 i know Feb 13 08:33:35 * CM is installing gentoo on a 300Mhz pII right now (<3 distcc) Feb 13 08:33:51 i like the toshiba g900 better Feb 13 08:34:01 but the clamshell qwerty looks nifty too Feb 13 08:34:33 especially the XGA out Feb 13 08:36:40 <_-InFeRnO-_> _still_ no src? Feb 13 08:37:05 Patience is a virue Feb 13 08:37:18 counter Feb 13 08:37:19 source: 2 days 02:49:41 (2.118 days); P0: 16.118; P1: 47.118; P2: 230.118 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (290) Feb 13 08:37:52 _-InFeRnO-_: nope, still about 17 hours before Sean lands at NY so that is probably lower limit Feb 13 08:38:18 <_-InFeRnO-_> thx Feb 13 08:41:55 distcc for openmoko ;) Feb 13 08:44:12 that P0 date: lower limit for that is about -4 days (when Chinese New Year week long holiday ends?) Feb 13 08:44:40 P1 I guess could be even almost -2 weeks Feb 13 09:07:47 i wonder who makes those imate phones Feb 13 09:08:54 and more importantly, if that party could be convinced to release a few specs... Feb 13 09:09:44 buz: HTC Feb 13 09:09:52 i doubt it Feb 13 09:09:57 all new imate models werent htc Feb 13 09:10:13 many were inventec and one techfaith Feb 13 09:11:14 if it's really htc, we will see it in 2 days from 4 brands Feb 13 09:12:20 "brands" Feb 13 09:33:20 * koen reads http://rejon.org/2007/02/13/the-best-book-on-open-source-software-development-needs-translation/ Feb 13 09:36:55 seems to me like the issue would be the very same in just about any company that wasnt open source before? Feb 13 09:37:43 yep. especially communication is piss-poor in most companies Feb 13 09:38:34 http://www.freelists.org/archives/linux-cirrus/02-2007/msg00026.html is interesting as well Feb 13 09:38:44 most companies still think that e-mail and outlook are the holy grails Feb 13 09:38:52 especially how Cirrus Logic responds to having their baords supported in mainline Feb 13 09:41:02 koen: you've noticed that too? Feb 13 09:41:34 fluffs: yeah, I have eo93xx board on my desk right now Feb 13 09:41:45 ep93xx* Feb 13 09:41:52 * fluffs rembers rev-a sillicon Feb 13 09:41:59 heh Feb 13 09:42:05 iirc I have E0 or E1 Feb 13 09:42:06 i think i have the errata somewhere... Feb 13 09:42:19 it is doing a good job of ballasting a bookcase Feb 13 09:42:25 the trick with the LED rc network was ingenious Feb 13 09:43:46 fluffs: I heard samsung is a bit better with regard to FLOSS nowadays Feb 13 09:44:14 a lot better Feb 13 09:44:26 altohugh their code output is still poor, they at least give me freebies Feb 13 09:44:38 my SMDK2443 arrived yesterday Feb 13 09:47:06 * koen should fix his serial cable to be able to login to the efika again Feb 13 09:48:20 hmm - I should try and get linksys to send me a nas200... Feb 13 09:48:49 are those shipping now Feb 13 09:49:15 I figure with over 50,000 nslu2-linux firmware downloads, and 10,000 people on the mailing lists, we must have increased their nslu2 revenue somewhat ... Feb 13 09:49:38 buz: not that I've seen yet Feb 13 09:49:46 uhm cirrus seems borderline stupid Feb 13 09:49:54 why do something yourself that others would do for free? Feb 13 09:50:04 buz: Don't get it either Feb 13 09:50:16 it could be either a face saving thing, or the `not invented here` mentaility Feb 13 09:50:42 maybe one should start accumulating shares in such companies and sue their management Feb 13 09:50:48 for obviously wasting money Feb 13 09:51:38 the trouble is that most of these chip vendors are used to people lapping up poor quality code (cf WinCE BSPs, etc) and just being able to do what they like... the linux kernel contrains a number of things including `not being stupid` and coding style Feb 13 09:51:40 probably some non-dev in the company commented that lennert's code worked better than theirs Feb 13 09:51:53 It't not rational thinking in any way. Seems like they see it as competition instead of help Feb 13 09:51:57 fluffs: well yes Feb 13 09:52:08 but if someone actually had code that would make it into mainline Feb 13 09:52:15 tho i seem to have become a patch junkie Feb 13 09:52:16 plus the offer for free driver development recently Feb 13 09:53:52 could simply be that they have a couple of coders whose only job is to work on linux drivers Feb 13 09:54:26 jannu: they have a team in bulgaria and china to do kernel work and to work on gcc Feb 13 09:54:49 they don't want to fire those people, even if they produce shit Feb 13 09:55:03 koen: that's what i was thinking Feb 13 09:55:36 and now after this, they can just tell upper management that the kernel devs were impossible to work with Feb 13 09:58:19 rwhitby: do you know any details about nas200 specs? Feb 13 10:05:40 sim from hell http://go.theregister.com/feed/http://www.theregister.co.uk/2007/02/13/orange_super_sim/ Feb 13 10:12:31 urgh. Feb 13 10:12:41 Morgaine: I'm thinking a bit you with following, though I must admit that I was hurry and skimmed to fast trough trademark discussion a bit back Feb 13 10:12:45 welcome to data-loaded sim cards... Feb 13 10:12:57 buz: only sure way to wipe it will be to destroy it Feb 13 10:13:10 Stephmw: openmoko simcard Feb 13 10:13:23 "insert to free your phone" Feb 13 10:13:59 trademarks, copyrights and patents: in FOSS only world copyrights and patents are somewhat irrelevant Feb 13 10:14:10 however, trademarks will still be very relevant Feb 13 10:14:30 agreed Feb 13 10:15:13 example: imagine somebody hacking into Linus Torvalds machine and then releasing new kernel in his name Feb 13 10:15:14 Stephmw: as an embedded professional, what would you like to see (or hear) in a presentation about OE? Feb 13 10:15:47 you can't really copy trademarks without devaluing them, they are like money Feb 13 10:16:13 however, value of idea (patents) and value of code (copyright) most of time increases more it is used Feb 13 10:16:27 * CM is guessing "How does OE help me develop more effiently?" :) Feb 13 10:18:32 koen: tool support and integration is key for me Feb 13 10:19:15 I guess there is case were "author trademark" could mutate: is principal author becomes old and senile, then core team/person stepping in his/her shoes kind of inherits 'trademark' Feb 13 10:19:29 koen: utilities to streamline development (fetch, build, package, run, debug, profile, repeat) Feb 13 10:20:17 koen: collecting subjects for elc? Feb 13 10:20:36 koen: I'd risk blasphemy and also suggest Cygwin being a supported target Feb 13 10:20:51 hrw: elc and bossa Feb 13 10:21:10 Stephmw: someone has cywin working as host and target Feb 13 10:21:20 time to get those patches in :) Feb 13 10:21:22 aye Feb 13 10:21:36 kergoth had arm-wince-pe working a few years ago Feb 13 10:22:20 oh, one more thing, but I don't really think it's OE-specific Feb 13 10:22:59 ... parallel building, but not necessarily with distcc/ccache Feb 13 10:23:08 we use pvmgmake here for instance Feb 13 10:23:22 * Stephmw would love the build system to contain less perl... sigh Feb 13 10:23:32 OE supports both ccache and icecream Feb 13 10:24:42 * koen wonders if there are gtk+ performance test tools that actually work Feb 13 10:24:57 hehe Feb 13 10:25:31 'Mornin Feb 13 10:25:49 Guys, a Phase 0 dev told me last night that that 7% yield problem and consequent 3-week delay actually referred to the ***PHASE 0*** phone batch, not Phase 1. Was his interpretation correct? And if so, why did Sean leave the announcement of the delay right up until yesterday, if he knew there would be a Phase 0 delay? Makes no sense to me. Feb 13 10:26:25 that's how I read it Feb 13 10:26:48 if it applied to p1 I would have had a UPS tracking number by now Feb 13 10:26:52 koen: gtk-theme-torturer doesn't work? Feb 13 10:27:06 read it that way too, also maybe Sean was hoping until last moment to get it done before Chinese New Year .. Feb 13 10:27:07 CM: no, that stops after painting one widget Feb 13 10:27:16 Crappy Feb 13 10:27:28 right Feb 13 10:27:39 I'd read the announcement as meaning a 3-week delay in the Phase 1 batch, so that there was no need to notify us about the delay yet. That's pretty non-open with the community, keeping expectation up when it was clear that even the current Phase was way off. Feb 13 10:27:39 timetext.c is cool, but doesn't test pixops Feb 13 10:28:13 Morgaine: there's a 3 week delay in the p0 batch Feb 13 10:28:41 counter? Feb 13 10:28:41 (actual release might happen earlier): 2 days 00:58:19 (2.040 days) for source for *all* developers (2007-02-14); 2 weeks, 2 days (16.040 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, 2 weeks, 2 days (47.040 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, 2 weeks, 2 days (230.040 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (291) Feb 13 10:28:43 koen: OK, thanks for confirmation. So my Phase 0 dev's info was correct. Feb 13 10:29:04 <- phase 0 dev Feb 13 10:29:21 * Morgaine blows raspberry at Sean. (In a friendly sort of way, but still a raspberry) Feb 13 10:29:31 there could be a delay in the p1 batch as well, but I don't know about that Feb 13 10:30:03 those are upper limits, my guess about lower limits: source: 15 hours, P0: -4 days, P1: -2 weeks Feb 13 10:30:20 well.. mail said late march for P1 Feb 13 10:30:28 koen: indeed, but since the deadline for Phase 1 was more than 3 weeks away, there was no urgent reason to notify a 3-week delay in it. Not so for Phase 0 ... the delay should have been announced some time back. Feb 13 10:30:49 mm, nice, a sun.com guy who "personally" intends to do something to java me support Feb 13 10:30:56 "Regarding our Neo1973 hardware, we will send out the first batch of Feb 13 10:30:56 phase 0 phones out around the end of this month. Sorry for not being Feb 13 10:30:57 able to give an absolute date. Next week is Chinese New Year (we're in Feb 13 10:30:57 Asia remember) and _everyone_ stops working for a full week. Having our Feb 13 10:30:57 newly designed FPC built before is really wishful thinking. Feb 13 10:30:57 All interested developers can purchase Neos starting late March. Please Feb 13 10:30:59 understand that phase 0 is a system of "checks and balances," so it Feb 13 10:31:01 simply cannot be rushed." Feb 13 10:31:05 ah, aloril already mentioned that :) Feb 13 10:32:46 koen: yeah, I didn't catch the "phase 0" in that when I read it. Probably because it "didn't compute" for me that we hadn't been notified of the delay right up until the date. Feb 13 10:33:23 I keep forgetting that, despite the nice words, there's a company underneath this thing after all. Feb 13 10:34:35 2 companies Feb 13 10:34:39 FIC and openmoko Feb 13 10:34:42 True ;-) Feb 13 10:35:11 Morgaine: you seen this yet?: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/12#20070212-moko_delay Feb 13 10:35:39 No, hadn't seen that. Thanks, reading. Feb 13 10:36:22 see planet.openmoko.org :) Feb 13 10:37:26 Ew, poor Harold. They're sure getting their money's worth. Feb 13 10:37:35 Harald* Feb 13 10:37:57 http://rejon.org/2007/02/13/the-best-book-on-open-source-software-development-needs-translation is interesting as well Feb 13 10:38:07 * koen shakes fist at matlab Feb 13 10:48:26 koen: one thing which you can add to elc/bassa: OE & external toolchains Feb 13 10:48:28 aloril: just finished Harald's post, thanks. A very mature article, and makes many very good points. I guess what it's really saying is that changing a corporate culture to "think FOSS" takes time, and even though it's their stated goal, they're not there yet. It takes time. Feb 13 10:49:22 hrw: I have an item called "vender provided toolchains" Feb 13 10:49:30 koen: good Feb 13 10:50:17 Morgaine: yeah (btw. did you read my trademark comment 0.5h ago?) Feb 13 10:52:00 aloril: yes I did, and I know what you're saying and I see the reasons for it. But it's not actually the only way to tackle such issues. I'll think about it a bit more, and respond. Feb 13 11:00:15 Morgaine: maybe in SL4 world trademark will have similar fate as copyright and patents in our world ;-) Feb 13 11:00:53 (or maybe even SL3: several duplicates of minds) Feb 13 11:01:15 above is pretty raw and quick idea ;-) Feb 13 11:03:00 aloril: We can simplify your scenario and still keep your point valid: replace "hacking into Linus's box" by simply acquiring the Linux kernel downstream, calling it something diifferent, and not distinguishing local changes from Linus et al's. Same issue, right? (I'm trying to remove the unauthorized entry to Linus's box from discussion, since that's not about "I.P.".) Feb 13 11:04:55 Morgaine: you mean basically saying Linus did changes that person locally did, yes same idea Feb 13 11:05:37 Morgaine: in this case easier to see that happened though by comparing to official one ;-) Feb 13 11:06:04 aloril: hehe, well there's no harm in being hopeful for the future, but I've been around too long to be hopeful of fixing the world rapidly ;-)) But yes, I very much encourage young idealists to try, it's a very worthy goal ;-) Feb 13 11:07:14 aloril: cool, I'll respond to that simpler idea in a bit then. Linus's box wasn't required for the discussion. Feb 13 11:26:59 counter Feb 13 11:26:59 source: 2 days 00:00:00 (2.000 days); P0: 16.000; P1: 47.000; P2: 230.000 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (292) Feb 13 11:27:31 The X7500 sure looks pretty: http://www.reghardware.co.uk/2007/02/13/htc_rolls_out_h1_07_lineup/ Feb 13 11:34:11 heh, counter is a bit shorter now Feb 13 11:35:06 counter Feb 13 11:35:06 source: a day 23:51:53 (1.994 days); P0: 15.994; P1: 46.994; P2: 229.994 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (293) Feb 13 11:35:32 Heh, just had to make sure it wasn't stuck at 2 days.. ;) Feb 13 11:36:49 ;-) Feb 13 11:39:25 http://www.theregister.co.uk/2003/07/02/reg_testdrives_myorigo_motion_control/ Feb 13 11:40:27 CM: thats not a phone, thats a small notebook Feb 13 11:41:30 and http://www.mobileburn.com/review.jsp?Page=1&Id=547 Feb 13 11:44:27 sounds not very useful to me Feb 13 11:45:03 and the 320*176 display is rather ancient Feb 13 11:45:38 yes, but then again it was designed 4 years ago Feb 13 11:46:27 so its vaporware Feb 13 11:46:40 i thought it was a new design Feb 13 11:46:48 no, you can actually get one on eBay or somesuch Feb 13 11:47:14 aloril: I've got a few lines on that subject: Feb 13 11:47:22 aloril: I see issues of trademark (and the other 3 kinds of "I.P." too / but hate that label) as being entirely different in their usefulness *within* the FOSS community versus their usefulness *against* the rest of the world. Those two things are not actually coupled in a strong way, ie. they refer to the same subject matter but don't interact. Feb 13 11:47:32 aloril: First of all, let's eliminate the non-trademark scenario: an anti-social upstart could quite validly acquire Linux source, add unspecified changes, rename Linux as MyCoolKernel, and as long as he provided all sources, he would still be both GPL-compliant and open-source by the OSDL definition. And trademark wouldn't come into it. So far, no issues. Feb 13 11:47:39 buz: it was on sale for a year or two, but didn't really succeed that well Feb 13 11:47:43 aloril: But now let's have this same guy make some very large and fundamental non-Linuxy changes (ones that 100% of LKML would reject, for the sake of argument), and still retain the "Linux" name, and still release all his sources. So, we have no issues of GPL compliance, but just one single issue of trademark infringement. Feb 13 11:47:54 aloril: Now this is what I am debating: in these circumstances, what is gained by the FOSS community by bringing lawyers into the equation to stop the name clash? It's my belief that almost nothing is gained. No distro will use his false Linux, and the few people who do get confused by it will soon discover the truth when they contact any other part of the community. Feb 13 11:47:57 buz: probably too much ahead of it's time Feb 13 11:48:04 aloril: So it's my belief that *within* the FOSS community, there is pretty much nothing to be gained by embracing trademark. And that's very separate from using trademark as a weapon against the non-FOSS world outside, which is a very different --- mainly of interest to those corporations who now make money from Linux. Feb 13 11:48:07 END Feb 13 11:48:10 You have to bring lawyers to the party. Feb 13 11:48:21 If you don't defend a trademark, it goes away. Feb 13 11:48:45 SpeedEvil: so what --- read my lines Feb 13 11:49:11 counter! Feb 13 11:49:16 counter Feb 13 11:49:16 source: a day 23:37:43 (1.985 days); P0: 15.985; P1: 46.985; P2: 229.985 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (294) Feb 13 11:54:13 How about I cut this down to a very simple argument. Feb 13 11:54:18 I remember at least a couple of instances of silly/greedy people using the "linux" label in inappropriate ways. Linus didn't sue. They went away, simply because the FOSS community wasn't interested. That's what it comes down to. Feb 13 11:54:19 The guy asked permission. Feb 13 11:54:27 The trademark owner granted it. Feb 13 11:54:37 Therefor - the trademark is used with permission therefor defended. Feb 13 11:54:41 If the trademark goes away, anyone can use the trademark 'Linux' or ... Feb 13 11:54:46 So the whole damn argument is completely irrelevant. Feb 13 11:54:52 SpeedEvil: so what? Feb 13 11:55:03 Morgaine: lets move a bit further, lets assume there was GPL implementation of XP and then this corporation makes huge changes to Linux so that it retains maybe only few % of mainstream Linux code while it mostly actually resembles closely of GPL XP implementation Feb 13 11:55:21 Morgaine: I think it would be practically cheating to call that Linux Feb 13 11:56:36 aloril: yes indeed, I agree entirely. And there are plenty of people that would do so (I was being generous when I merely labelled it "anti-social" above) .... but so what? It wouldn't really satisfy any community need except vengeace to bring law into it. Feb 13 11:56:38 aloril: a much better example is something like a company making some crappy os of their own, with no connection to linux whatsoever and calling that linux Feb 13 11:57:29 jannu: yeah, but I wanted to retain tiny part of "derivative code" ;-) Feb 13 11:57:29 FOSS is actually extremely resilient to tampering, without the help of legal aids. Feb 13 11:58:13 aloril: ok. that's just not what trademarks are about imho Feb 13 11:59:05 trademarks are about protecting branding. Nothing else. Feb 13 11:59:21 So what I'm really saying is: FOSS is actually much sturdier than any legal fictions. *Within* the community (as opposed to without), it's not actually important at all. Feb 13 11:59:26 aloril: the main point of trademarks is quality control. i.e. the fact that when you go and buy a can of coke you don't get orange juice Feb 13 11:59:38 Morgaine: umm.. lets change it a bit: if I say Linus Torvalds said "something gross thing that would offend a lot of people" ... Feb 13 12:00:30 jannu: yeah, but I think underlying idea is same as "lying" ;-) Feb 13 12:00:30 noidd: exactly. And within the FOSS community, "branding" is almost a non-issue -- at worst, it's just a name clash, a small annoyance. Feb 13 12:01:05 umm.. lying with commercial interest Feb 13 12:01:18 lying to besmirch reputation Feb 13 12:01:24 aloril: i.e. marketing Feb 13 12:01:26 etc.. basically its form of lying Feb 13 12:01:43 jannu: hehe, but there are limits to that lying ;-) Feb 13 12:02:19 aloril: plenty of that around, FUD of all sorts is thrown against Linux and against Linus ... but does it matter? *Within* the community, we just laugh at it. Feb 13 12:03:01 I tell you, FOSS is extremely strong. Feb 13 12:04:37 the problem imho is that without trademark protection or something similar, buying stuff would become a whole lot harder Feb 13 12:05:01 i mean basically i could buy a can of coke and get spring water Feb 13 12:05:24 There is 'trades descriptions' - or whatever it's called in the states. Feb 13 12:05:31 The truth in advertising regs. Feb 13 12:05:41 And copyright of the can design. Feb 13 12:05:52 It gets harder, yes. Feb 13 12:07:04 jannu: lol, indeed. But that analogy doesn't work within the FOSS community, because we have our own advertising and our own internal watchdogs --- a million observant eyes. Feb 13 12:07:04 did you hear about "dr" gillian thingy, she's not allowed to call herself a dr anymore Feb 13 12:07:14 as she paid $60 for a phd on the interblag Feb 13 12:07:28 Those aren't real? Feb 13 12:07:35 OMG, I was done! :) Feb 13 12:07:43 :P Feb 13 12:08:02 hello guys Feb 13 12:08:07 Hello. Feb 13 12:08:27 * LuitvD can't wait for the source and wiki to become open for the public Feb 13 12:08:33 Morgaine: true, and with code you have all sorts of other verification systems like signed releases Feb 13 12:08:42 (with me being the public :) ) Feb 13 12:08:42 Hi LuitvD. We forgive you about the chocolate ... basically because we couldn't figure out a way past your AI defenses ... ;-) Feb 13 12:08:51 Is the hardware being sent out on schedule? Feb 13 12:08:51 victory :D Feb 13 12:08:53 Hehe Feb 13 12:08:54 s/is/has/ Feb 13 12:09:46 unlikely Feb 13 12:10:03 Morgaine: yes, its not white/black issue, but I think there should be some limits to lying Feb 13 12:10:03 lol, everything is delayed here Feb 13 12:10:03 SpeedEvil: no, it's delayed. It turns out that that 3-week delay was for the Phase 0 batch .... very odd that we weren't told about it, seeing as they knew. Feb 13 12:10:08 which is normal for open source stuff Feb 13 12:10:11 Ah. Feb 13 12:11:30 Morgaine: if jtag related cable had worked, then no delay I think Feb 13 12:11:45 Ah. Feb 13 12:12:18 Morgaine: reading mails I got impression that one problem in hardware -> month delay is common Feb 13 12:12:19 It's not a JTAG cable - AIUI. It's the bluetooth cable. Feb 13 12:12:32 aloril: funnily enough, I think that one of the (possibly) unintended consequences of s/w freedom (that in most cases it ends up being free of cost too) is that "lying" hasn't caught on in the community --- because there is no money at stake within the non-corporate sphere. Feb 13 12:12:34 SpeedEvil: OK, I guess I remembered wrong Feb 13 12:12:39 Which has been rerouted from its original position to expose the JTAG Feb 13 12:13:06 Morgaine: in a lot of cases it's also fairly easy to detect, even a few years down the line Feb 13 12:13:23 Morgaine: public source control is very nice Feb 13 12:13:34 Morgaine: also I got impression that this was surprise to FIC Feb 13 12:14:12 maybe FIC had the contract saying "it *will* be done!" and the contractee defaulted? Feb 13 12:14:18 but... this is bases all on just reading public ML ;-) Feb 13 12:14:23 I gather that this is not FIC. Feb 13 12:14:31 aloril: yes, manufacturing delays are very common. What's odd isn't the h/w hitch, but that Sean knew about it but chose not to say right up until the time of expected release. I guess he's under pressure. No biggie I suppose. Feb 13 12:14:46 yes, problematic cable was from outside FIC IIRC Feb 13 12:14:52 This is a small part of FIC, and the outside contractors making the cables are external. Feb 13 12:14:53 * LuitvD thinks the second openmoko device should have a GoForce6100 and an Imageon processor :) Feb 13 12:15:02 It's usual to buy almost everything in from outside. Feb 13 12:15:19 Some large makers may have their own board assembly houses. Feb 13 12:15:26 * aloril can imagine Sean is under quite pressure Feb 13 12:15:57 np: Queen - Under Pressure. Feb 13 12:15:58 Morgaine: I would not attribute anything evil here Feb 13 12:15:59 "30 frame-per-second H.264 and VC-1 decoder that supports 640 x 480 resolution" Feb 13 12:16:06 ? Feb 13 12:16:09 that would be great for Neo1973's screen Feb 13 12:16:13 Haha. Feb 13 12:16:14 What's the 3D hardware in the Dell Axim? I remember that PDA was once touted as being the only one supported accelerated 3D gaming. Feb 13 12:16:17 _no_way_ Feb 13 12:16:31 My laptop (PII/300 can't do that) Feb 13 12:16:39 aloril: yeah, I agree. It's disappointing, but that's all. Feb 13 12:16:47 It's at least 4 times faster than the neo processor. Feb 13 12:16:48 SpeedEvil: aha! but did they say what the stream consisted of? Feb 13 12:16:56 h.264 Feb 13 12:16:58 SpeedEvil: might just be a blue screen for 5mins Feb 13 12:17:05 Morgaine: I guess it's GoForce6100's previous model Feb 13 12:17:10 Oh - yeah. It can just about keep up with blank. Feb 13 12:17:33 * Stephmw curses marketing Feb 13 12:18:16 Well, in any case ... I don't think there's any disputing that v2 *will* have 3D acceleration. Heck, even my watch will have 3D acceleration by Sept 2008. Feb 13 12:18:34 If it diddn't it'd be horribly inconvenient. Feb 13 12:18:44 Imagine having to keep your watch at the same height all the time. Feb 13 12:18:47 Awful. Feb 13 12:18:53 Hehehe Feb 13 12:19:51 * LuitvD hasn't have enough coffee yet to see the joke in that one... Feb 13 12:19:59 s/have/had/ Feb 13 12:20:07 Morgaine: I got impression that v2 CPU is *fast*, but no hardware 3D (but I might remember wrong or gotten wrong impression) Feb 13 12:20:09 Accelleration = change in velocity Feb 13 12:20:26 LuitvD: F=ma where F is applied by wrist :-))) Feb 13 12:20:41 :P Feb 13 12:20:48 that one I do get Feb 13 12:21:08 ah, now i see :P Feb 13 12:21:19 * LuitvD is defenately not awake Feb 13 12:21:30 Like all good jokes, a sudden change of context. Feb 13 12:21:46 or simply the oposite of what you expect ;) Feb 13 12:21:53 SpeedEvil: about big screen and real size keyboard: wear alternate reality glasses where some part of screen is replaced with virtual screen with size you want and with virtual keyboard Feb 13 12:22:09 Virtual keyboards don't really work. Feb 13 12:22:20 Unless you've got accurate per-finger touch feedback. Feb 13 12:23:03 SpeedEvil: then add exoskeleton and force feedback gloves to simulate chair and real keyboard feeling Feb 13 12:23:09 ideal v3 openmoko device: sunglasses with built-in screen (heck, maybe even eyeball implants :) ) and a brain implant for the user-input Feb 13 12:23:10 Virtual displays tend to have problems too. First that you look like a borg. Feb 13 12:23:53 aloril: that's a great option... Feb 13 12:24:04 I like the idea of throat mikes, fixed to collar. Subvocalized sounds should fit in well with Unix .... "grep, awk, sed, burp" ;-))) Feb 13 12:24:07 the exoskeleton could have many more cool features then Feb 13 12:24:12 SpeedEvil: well.. as you can guess I'm assuming technology not from current time ;-) Feb 13 12:24:45 SpeedEvil: above was reply to something like "pocket size full size keyboard and display" or something like that (from memory) ;-) Feb 13 12:24:59 I was more meaning a nice folding one. Feb 13 12:24:59 Morgaine: nah, then you'd be typing bullshit when clearing your throat Feb 13 12:25:16 I teally want a 17" display I can crumple up and jam in my pocket. Feb 13 12:25:23 SpeedEvil: OK, you were not joking then Feb 13 12:25:40 Not really - it's is a _horribly_ hard engineering problem. Feb 13 12:25:41 LuitvD: hehe. Yeah, would have to control random noises. Feb 13 12:26:09 It's annoying that holograms as popular media understands them can't exist either. Feb 13 12:26:23 clearing your nose, clearing your throat, coughing, chewing gum... Feb 13 12:26:25 :P Feb 13 12:26:29 You need some surface which you look at, that extends over the complete visual area of the display. Feb 13 12:26:44 Be it fog, a spinning mirror, or ... Feb 13 12:27:10 How come that we can see the image on LCD glasses? Obviously the eye can't focus that close. Feb 13 12:27:13 SpeedEvil: you don't exactly need that... Feb 13 12:27:37 Morgaine: because the output lens covers the field of view. Feb 13 12:27:37 Morgaine: not if a regular LCD is put into a pair of glasses Feb 13 12:27:53 s/not// Feb 13 12:27:53 LuitvD meant: Morgaine: if a regular LCD is put into a pair of glasses Feb 13 12:27:56 And presents a correctly focussed image into the eye. Feb 13 12:27:59 SpeedEvil: I guess you have seen this: http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ver0/ (but of course I'm talking about something much more advanced) Feb 13 12:28:24 There are lots of liars and idiots not understanding the fundamental physics out there. Feb 13 12:28:36 saying 'lasers' does not mean that something magically works. Feb 13 12:28:40 * SpeedEvil looks at URL. Feb 13 12:28:46 Looking Feb 13 12:28:57 idem Feb 13 12:29:40 Cool. Feb 13 12:29:49 You are however looking through the beamsplitter. Feb 13 12:30:01 This completely covers the virtual area of the display. Feb 13 12:30:02 lol, clicked "My next attempts" Feb 13 12:30:03 "Pictures are worth a thousand words:" Feb 13 12:30:09 none of the pictures work Feb 13 12:30:38 SpeedEvil: yes, this is not alternate reality glasses, but example of "you don't need to look like cyborg" Feb 13 12:31:30 s/this is /these are / Feb 13 12:31:31 aloril meant: SpeedEvil: yes, these are not alternate reality glasses, but example of "you don't need to look like cyborg" Feb 13 12:32:04 SpeedEvil: going back to my question about focus, I don't actually understand how covering the whole field of view makes any difference. Any given pixel in the LCD still has to be focussed as a single point on the retina. Feb 13 12:32:28 it would be nice to HMD like above for some version of Neo as option (like bluetooth headsets) Feb 13 12:32:31 Yes - for which, there needs to be light coming from that angle into the eye. Feb 13 12:32:35 Morgaine: why do you think this guy has put a 3mm thick lens in front of it? Feb 13 12:32:36 There is no way round this. Feb 13 12:32:57 Light does not at human intensities mix with itself. It travels in straight lines. Feb 13 12:33:08 LuitvD: LOL. You mean to say that LCD glasses actually have thick lenses in them? Feb 13 12:33:14 yes. Feb 13 12:33:26 didn't you see that device Morgaine ? Feb 13 12:33:35 They have little magnifying glasses that focus on the .5cm display. Feb 13 12:33:42 http://www.aeinnovations.com/projects/ver0/s__aeinnovations.com_gfx_tm1v2close.jpg Feb 13 12:33:44 SpeedEvil: yeah, so you need to have cameras/displays at both sides covering everything ;-) Feb 13 12:33:45 that picture Feb 13 12:33:56 But then the rest of the world is seen out of focus! That's insane, not like a HUD at all. We need an overlaid image. Feb 13 12:34:02 err - no. Feb 13 12:34:09 That's what the beamsplitter is for. Feb 13 12:34:29 Looking again. Feb 13 12:34:30 It splits the constructed virtual image of the display at infinity, and the real image. Feb 13 12:34:39 so you can see both. Feb 13 12:34:43 Morgaine: through that lens... yes Feb 13 12:34:55 SpeedEvil: cool Feb 13 12:35:09 You do not look at the world through that lens in goggles that overlay it with the world. Feb 13 12:35:22 It's the same idea as HUDs in cars/planes. Feb 13 12:35:39 SpeedEvil: isn't the LCD simply sandwiched between lenses? Feb 13 12:35:59 oh wait, now i can see :P Feb 13 12:36:23 It's exactly the same as having a little bit of paper, with a magnifying glass, and holding it to your eye to see it. Feb 13 12:36:30 The backlight complicates thing. Feb 13 12:36:32 s Feb 13 12:37:40 There may also be more than one lens, to improve optical quality. Feb 13 12:39:12 anyhow, that thing is cool :) Feb 13 12:39:27 Just trying to sort out the basic optics in my mind, not the electronics. If I understand it for a fixed translucent object that close up, I'll understand it for an LCD. Feb 13 12:40:23 Morgaine: the LCD isn't translucent... I guess Feb 13 12:40:26 It's the same as opaque objects. Feb 13 12:42:00 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Head-up_display Feb 13 12:42:09 How it works is that the lens takes each spot on the display, and projects it to a parallel beam of light. Feb 13 12:42:16 "Aircraft information is projected with its focus at infinity. Automotive information is projected around the distance of the bumper. Doing this means that a user does not need to refocus his eyes (which takes several tenths of a second) when changing his attention between the instrument and the outside world." Feb 13 12:42:27 That parallel beam of light then resolves (when the eye focusses on it) into a dot in the right place. Feb 13 12:42:34 interesting how borg peripheral bluetooth headsets have rapidly been accepted by mainstream ;-) Feb 13 12:42:40 Yeah. Feb 13 12:43:17 LOL, Slashdot will have to change its image of Bill Gates ... else he'll become a symbol for progress ;-) Feb 13 12:43:34 what? :| Feb 13 12:43:54 the borg Feb 13 12:44:00 ah, right Feb 13 12:44:10 (MS stories bear an icon image of Gates wearing a Borg eyepiece) Feb 13 12:44:11 * LuitvD is a little slow of the brains today Feb 13 12:44:25 if something like almost normal looking sunglas displays were commercially available and reasonable priced and Neo supported, I would certainly get one (+ Twiddler == Wearable computer) Feb 13 12:44:26 yeah, i know Feb 13 12:45:15 aloril: if I had eggs I'd make egg and bacon. If I had bacon... Feb 13 12:45:20 same thing :P Feb 13 12:45:21 * aloril has been waiting for that probably over 10 years ;-) Feb 13 12:45:40 LuitvD: yeah, though wearable computing is idea is more than 20 years old Feb 13 12:45:56 SpeedEvil: OK, I see my mistake, I thought the LCD was being seen as-is, rather than the image being projected optically. Cool. Feb 13 12:46:01 s/is idea // Feb 13 12:46:01 aloril meant: LuitvD: yeah, though wearable computing is more than 20 years old Feb 13 12:46:39 aloril: timetraveling is an even older idea... Feb 13 12:48:08 http://science.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/02/13/0213259&from=rss Feb 13 12:48:14 will the neo have that too? :P Feb 13 12:48:47 american sign language recognition Feb 13 12:48:54 even better then voice recognition :P Feb 13 12:49:17 LuitvD: I know at least one OM developer interested in ASL, so the answer is almost sure to be Yes. Feb 13 12:49:47 Morgaine: will the neo have a camera? Feb 13 12:49:53 (can't find that anywhere) Feb 13 12:50:45 LuitvD: camera is on the v2 wishlist, but there are issues in the community`--- eg. some people aren't allowed to take cameras into office. Feb 13 12:50:59 ah :) Feb 13 12:51:05 that's weird Feb 13 12:51:26 That's why I suggested a screw-in lens cap (not easily flicked out), or an entirely removeable camera module. Feb 13 12:52:01 you can still create an USB camera module... Feb 13 12:52:02 it seems like a solution would be to offer a couple of different hardware versions Feb 13 12:52:14 but it has to be unpowered, right? Feb 13 12:52:14 Alternative idea: screw-in lens. Without the lens, it's only usable as a scanner. Feb 13 12:52:31 LuitvD: not just idea: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Steve_Mann http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Thad_Starner http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wearable_computer Feb 13 12:53:28 And the screw-in lens idea would also make Neo2 the very first camera with swappable lenses ... a poor man's DSLR ;-)))))))))))) Marketting would love that. Feb 13 12:53:50 lol Feb 13 12:54:39 But the important thing about it would be that peoplecould still take the phone into their offices, as it would not take pics of anything further than a cm away. Feb 13 12:54:45 if you had like some sort of small builtin module, that could swap custom componants... Feb 13 12:54:52 like gps/camera/wifi Feb 13 12:55:19 Actually, not even a cm ... it would have to be in contact. Feb 13 12:55:47 Ie. without a lens, it's just a contact scanner. Feb 13 12:56:02 Morgaine: it'd have to be on the CCD... Feb 13 12:56:28 and it wouldn't be a contact scanner then, because there is no light Feb 13 12:56:35 so it'd be useless Feb 13 12:56:38 well... Feb 13 12:56:45 not completely useless... Feb 13 12:56:47 LuitvD: hahahaha. Good point, would need its own illumination Feb 13 12:56:52 heh Feb 13 12:56:59 * LuitvD isn't that tired anymore Feb 13 12:57:22 but, without a lens, it would be a nice light-intensity meter :) Feb 13 12:57:42 intensity and color Feb 13 12:57:52 Well anyway, I'm not too fussed about scanning. Just trying to find a way to satisfy both the camera and no-camera people at same time. Feb 13 12:58:22 do that many people have problems with cameras? Feb 13 12:58:56 Dunno about percentage. Some have very strong views about it. Feb 13 12:59:13 a complaint is a complaint :) Feb 13 12:59:28 * LuitvD isn't sure about the spelling of that word... Feb 13 12:59:33 But if a single design can satisfy both parties, all the better ;-))) Feb 13 12:59:41 yeah Feb 13 12:59:46 it'd be a great design Feb 13 12:59:50 And removeable lens is a pretty cute idea. Feb 13 13:00:06 removable lens... slide-away lens... something like that Feb 13 13:00:13 american sign language recognition Feb 13 13:00:17 and yet almost everybody has a stereo camera, its just its storage medium is inexact and extracting images from it is a bit hard Feb 13 13:00:25 ;-) Feb 13 13:00:25 noidd: what? Feb 13 13:00:34 Heh, that would rock. Not sure the phone has the computing power to render an animated avatar tho Feb 13 13:00:35 :-) Feb 13 13:00:36 Slide away lens won't overcome the office objections. Feb 13 13:00:52 or do video recognition Feb 13 13:01:02 what cpu does it have anyway? Feb 13 13:01:02 noidd: yeah, as of now, that is Feb 13 13:01:20 also - deaf people would rather type and read in text honestly than sign at their camera Feb 13 13:01:23 noidd: if the next-gen phone gets an imageon cpu (a new AMD mobile chip) Feb 13 13:01:26 although it is a cute gimmick Feb 13 13:01:47 noidd: read the article ;) Feb 13 13:01:59 I'll tell you what would be great tho Feb 13 13:02:01 Bah, this thing has more power than a VAX 780 a few decades ago, and that powered a whole university .... we just need to optimize. ;-))) Feb 13 13:02:21 * Morgaine giggles Feb 13 13:02:24 is the video translation service Feb 13 13:03:20 "The current wireless telephone network has inadvertently excluded over one million deaf or hard of hearing Americans." Feb 13 13:03:28 I fundimentally disagree with that statement Feb 13 13:03:37 Morgaine: even my microchip can crunch more MIPS Feb 13 13:03:41 I've yet to meet a Deaf person who doesn't have a cellphone./ Feb 13 13:03:48 noidd: You reckon it was intentional? Feb 13 13:03:48 (*uses a PIC18F4431 in his robot) Feb 13 13:03:56 They tend to be data-centric like using the Sidekick from Suncom / T-Mobile Feb 13 13:04:15 and Suncom does Data-Only (with no voice minutes) plans for people who are deaf Feb 13 13:04:21 so I call bullshit on that statement. Feb 13 13:04:36 LuitvD: hehe, nice. I've messed with PICs a bit, but prefer Atmels. Feb 13 13:04:54 Morgaine: yeah, we're using avr32s for pm on new board Feb 13 13:04:58 wiki is good idea, but also a bit problematic, for example wikipedia closes some pages to anonymous editing and some other even more Feb 13 13:05:07 Morgaine: why? Feb 13 13:05:22 LuitvD: got a URL? Feb 13 13:05:28 imagine wiki, but instead of text it would be code that you would be running: if this can be made to work, then ... Feb 13 13:05:28 of what? Feb 13 13:05:36 "This material is based upon work supported by the National Science Foundation under Grant No. 0514353." - There is your answer :-P Feb 13 13:05:50 Morgaine: URI of what? wanna see my robot or something ? :P Feb 13 13:05:58 LuitvD: oh, just more resources, and a bit higher level instruction set. PICs are fun, but not as handy for C for example. Feb 13 13:06:25 LuitvD: if there's something on project, yeah, that would be nice to see. If exists Feb 13 13:06:42 Morgaine: C programming works fine for me :P SDCC works great Feb 13 13:06:42 I'm trying to work out what they are trying to achieve Feb 13 13:07:00 It looks like video compression which is higher detail in signing areas Feb 13 13:07:10 Morgaine: a not-so-recent image of my robot: http://img.luitvd.nl/robot.png Feb 13 13:07:14 they're not trying to try and interpret ASL tho, thank God. Feb 13 13:07:30 Morgaine: about a week ago, with no motors connected yet Feb 13 13:07:36 LuitvD: * dev-embedded/sdcc Feb 13 13:07:36 Latest version available: 2.5.0_p20060502 Feb 13 13:07:39 (for testing the chip's capabilities) Feb 13 13:07:39 Installing Feb 13 13:08:04 Morgaine: get that off the repositry Feb 13 13:08:15 they've got 2,4 already Feb 13 13:09:26 I'm going to forward that article to my (Deaf) cousin and ask his opinion on signing to a cellphone Feb 13 13:09:26 * LuitvD sneezes, and leaves to wash his hands Feb 13 13:09:32 I have a sneaky suspicion I know what he'll say Feb 13 13:09:45 also - how on earth are you going to sign at a cellphone Feb 13 13:09:53 sit it on a shelf and sign from a distance? Feb 13 13:10:04 and then get up close so you can see a reply? Feb 13 13:10:06 makes no sense Feb 13 13:11:06 noidd: you're right... it doesn't make sense... Feb 13 13:11:14 but it's a nice feature :P Feb 13 13:11:22 how would you sign with 1 hand? Feb 13 13:11:40 and surely typing is faster and more secure ;p Feb 13 13:11:45 greghunt: using the ASL alphabet Feb 13 13:12:23 that's one-handed Feb 13 13:12:44 surely a better feature would be one of those hearing aid hooks Feb 13 13:12:44 Morgaine: get the SVN version !!! :P Feb 13 13:12:51 step 1) combine wiki and git/arch/etc.. that allows easy forking Feb 13 13:12:51 that transmits to it Feb 13 13:13:02 or a textto phone thing Feb 13 13:13:30 if you want to go for the deaf market Feb 13 13:14:01 step 2) some authors are considered more reliable based on past or their record makes them more reliable Feb 13 13:14:20 step 3) there are authors who combine stuff from several authors (mini distros) Feb 13 13:15:03 step 4) then person(s) that edit mainstream tree whose work mostly consists of combining stuff from previous steps Feb 13 13:15:43 simple spelling/other obvious fixes would be accepted rapidly by even '4' level authors, more complex, more upstream person needs to accept it Feb 13 13:16:50 maybe something like this could combine fast changes, good reviews, anybody can edit, authority, etc.. Feb 13 13:17:11 problem is that this idea is missing actual details on how to do it ;-) Feb 13 13:18:03 actually all trees would be viewable by anybody, but it moves to mainstream only once somebody has approved it Feb 13 13:18:35 you yourself can select which branch you like, so there isn't necessarily one mainstream Feb 13 13:19:40 that sounds very complex and difficult to maintain Feb 13 13:20:04 greghunt: maybe, maybe this idea could be simplified Feb 13 13:20:17 s/,/ or/ Feb 13 13:20:17 aloril meant: greghunt: maybe or maybe this idea could be simplified Feb 13 13:20:29 or do you mean something like on freebsd, with different CVS tags Feb 13 13:20:49 RELEASE_1_0 1_1 etc and a CURRENT for actuve development Feb 13 13:20:52 anyway, hopefully I managed to convey basic idea? Feb 13 13:20:54 new stuff can be backported Feb 13 13:21:08 greghunt: yes, but it would be editable like wiki by anybody Feb 13 13:21:39 that sounds somewhat risky, having people send in patches that can be reviewed by a trusted source Feb 13 13:21:45 but.. initially anonymous edits might not be visible by default: depends on article though Feb 13 13:22:00 greghunt: yes, that is indeed risky Feb 13 13:22:02 though it would encourage participation Feb 13 13:22:42 for wiki and low volume article default mainstream commit works (though I guess there could be 5min - 15min delay or something ...) Feb 13 13:23:11 greghunt: signing is much faster than typing. People can sign faster than you can talk. Feb 13 13:23:22 for code though I doubt can never go with anonymous mainstream ;-) Feb 13 13:23:23 greghunt: hearing aid hooks don't help Deaf people :-P Feb 13 13:23:38 Meeting - back soon. Feb 13 13:23:42 most people seem to have partial deafness though Feb 13 13:25:01 this model would be both fork friendly (trivial to fork) and fork hostile (you want to eventually get your changes back to mainstream) Feb 13 13:25:51 counter Feb 13 13:25:51 source: a day 22:01:07 (1.917 days); P0: 15.917; P1: 46.917; P2: 229.917 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (295) Feb 13 13:26:13 I guess for code/articles that are contentious forks would be likely Feb 13 13:26:57 isnt 22:01:07, like 0.9 days...not 1.9? :) Feb 13 13:27:21 a day + 22:01:07 Feb 13 13:27:50 oh!, right Feb 13 13:27:53 * jeddy3 shuts up Feb 13 13:30:59 Hi people. Feb 13 13:31:15 heya Feb 13 14:06:46 So are any service yet public? Feb 13 14:07:00 (except the already known ones planet,projects) Feb 13 14:07:18 none Feb 13 14:08:12 I want hardware details. "the usb port is 30.5mm from the left of the phone"... so I can try making hardware. Feb 13 14:08:47 SpeedEvil - "making hardware"? Feb 13 14:08:52 To fit the neo. Feb 13 14:09:29 Ahh. Feb 13 14:09:29 BTW: I like LaF0rge's posting! Feb 13 14:09:32 For example - it's quite possible to make USB plugs that don't stick out much if at all. Feb 13 14:09:58 Then there are cheap USB peripheral chips that'd let you run buttons or things. Feb 13 14:10:09 * SpeedEvil needs to get his mail machine up and running. Feb 13 14:10:21 SpeedEvil - Ahhh. Feb 13 14:10:21 At the moment, I'm making a new case. Feb 13 14:10:38 Out of two ceramic 60*60cm floor tiles, and 12 10*20cm glass tiles. Feb 13 14:11:06 The entire edge will be gently lit. Feb 13 14:11:29 *g* :) Feb 13 14:11:48 I'm exactly a non-hardware-hacker. ;) Feb 13 14:11:48 It's a table/computer case. Feb 13 14:22:07 mickeyl: Seen LaF0rges blog post? Feb 13 14:22:20 which one? Feb 13 14:22:22 url? Feb 13 14:22:27 planet.openmoko.org Feb 13 14:22:29 http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/12#20070212-moko_delay ? Feb 13 14:22:54 Yes, that one Feb 13 14:23:03 I think most have. Feb 13 14:23:21 yeah, that's a really good article imo Feb 13 14:23:29 Good post, well written Feb 13 14:23:36 Hang on - is that shrinking the P0-P2 window by a month? Feb 13 14:23:36 Yes! Feb 13 14:23:38 I like the honesty in there. Feb 13 14:24:00 SuN - Yep! Feb 13 14:24:18 SpeedEvil - 2 weeks, I'd say. Feb 13 14:24:24 I bet if that were a 100% corporate environment (say, non-FOSS), he'd be seriously reprimanded by his boss/manager/superior. Feb 13 14:24:28 Ah. Feb 13 14:24:46 I need to get used to this, but I think I like it :) Feb 13 14:24:48 Well - I've seen small companies do essentially the same. Feb 13 14:25:07 "commit early, commit often" Feb 13 14:25:14 :-) Feb 13 14:25:15 yep Feb 13 14:25:34 quality or polishing is irrelevant Feb 13 14:25:39 SpeedEvil - small companies, yes. Feb 13 14:26:02 Big companies and governments tend to suffer from an obsession with corporate voice. Feb 13 14:26:06 "Why fix it when you can have someone else do it" makes sense :) Feb 13 14:26:08 "if it isn't in the SCM, it doesn't exist" Feb 13 14:26:15 Which is undcerstandable, but annoying. Feb 13 14:26:19 "someone else" being the global FOSS community. Feb 13 14:26:58 SuN - I like this honesty so much! Feb 13 14:27:22 I do too, but for some people I guess it would be a bit harsh. Feb 13 14:27:50 It's the truth, but if you're one of FIC's coding minions, you won't be happy ;) Feb 13 14:28:18 I wonder, what the FIC officials would think, when they'd read that. Feb 13 14:28:40 As do I, methinks they should maintain a blog as well. Feb 13 14:31:28 "Do they really know, what "we" are doing here?", etc Feb 13 14:32:13 All in all I think this entire project is a revolution in the FOSS world though. Feb 13 14:32:30 in the foss world it's an evolution Feb 13 14:32:44 in the CSS world it's a revolution Feb 13 14:32:56 Yeah, I guess you can say that. Feb 13 14:33:35 documentation and programmer for the gsm module would be a revolution Feb 13 14:34:16 Let's take this.. one step at a time :) Feb 13 14:35:39 counter Feb 13 14:35:40 source: a day 20:51:19 (1.869 days); P0: 15.869; P1: 46.869; P2: 229.869 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (296) Feb 13 14:35:56 That's more or less like NVidia open sourcing their driver. I wonder if I will live to see that. Feb 13 14:36:22 Did the counter flip or was it adjusted? Feb 13 14:36:45 Probably adjusted, the text string is entirely different now Feb 13 14:36:54 adjusted to compensate for the delay Feb 13 14:37:20 Hm... wondering why they didn't just register "zwei.de". Feb 13 14:39:45 mickeyl - Do you have any infos on what "FIC offials" say/think about this? Or did you sign an NDA? ;) Feb 13 14:39:58 sorry, lacking context Feb 13 14:40:02 what's the question? Feb 13 14:41:07 mickeyl - We were just wondering, what FIC officials would think about LaF0rge's latest blog entry. Feb 13 14:41:28 ah Feb 13 14:42:14 actually i have no idea. the only one FIC official i know backs it up though Feb 13 14:42:15 mickeyl - You can read that as a much more general question like: "Do they even know, what crazy project they fund there?"... or anything like that. Feb 13 14:42:29 hehe, yes, they know about the project Feb 13 14:42:41 and they are excited Feb 13 14:42:45 because they see the value Feb 13 14:42:50 but they don't understand the "mechanics" yet Feb 13 14:43:26 "What's this 'indenting' you all keep talking about?" Feb 13 14:43:39 koen - *G* Yeah. :-) Feb 13 14:44:00 "Hey, this vaguely resembles VB6. Is this machine code?" Feb 13 14:44:54 I know the trouble I had teaching students "best practices when crosscompiling" Feb 13 14:45:14 mickeyl - Do they try to understand the "mechanics"? Or is just "another black box, hopefully giving money at the end"? ;) Feb 13 14:46:06 Elrond: as far as i can tell they see the value in open solutions, it's just that they have no idea how to be a part of the community. but we're slowly teaching them Feb 13 14:46:07 I can imagine about two dozen other black boxes with a bigger chance of being profitable, but you never know in corporate world :) Feb 13 14:46:30 mickeyl - Ahh, cool. :-)) Feb 13 14:46:41 Slap Symbian on it -> market as a SE clone -> profit! Feb 13 14:47:25 SuN: there is still long version available: just add '?' (works here (answering questions) and "/msg aloril counter?" too) Feb 13 14:47:50 Yeah I saw that, was just wondering about the validity of the ETA though. Feb 13 14:48:15 * koen notices some links on top of planet.openmoko.org Feb 13 14:48:36 eagle eyes Feb 13 14:48:37 :) Feb 13 14:48:49 hey mickeyl Feb 13 14:48:50 SuN: that is upper limit estimate based on latest announce mail Feb 13 14:49:13 we all hope the plane uses an afterburner :) Feb 13 14:49:14 * stefan_schmidt misses the links for planet feeds again. Feb 13 14:49:16 koen - hehe, I noticed them too. ;) Only the projects one has content for the ordinaries like us. ;) Feb 13 14:49:17 aloril: alright, thanks for clearing that up. Feb 13 14:49:18 lower limit is from -1 day to -few weeks Feb 13 14:49:47 * aloril maybe should add ranges there .. Feb 13 14:50:09 of course lower limit is also guess based on that same and earlier mail ;-) Feb 13 14:50:11 what's will be the p0 production volume? also 1k devices? Feb 13 14:50:31 50-100? Feb 13 14:50:37 iirc 200 Feb 13 14:52:04 back :) Feb 13 14:52:16 so you need 50% yield to supply all p0 devs Feb 13 14:52:23 aloril: none of those will be sold? Feb 13 14:52:26 :P Feb 13 14:52:35 mickeyl: The new links on p.o.o were changed against the old feed links? They are missing again. :) Feb 13 14:53:22 stefan_schmidt: You should be learning :-) Feb 13 14:53:39 alphaone: arg, got me. Feb 13 14:53:46 alphaone: iirc you, too. :) Feb 13 14:54:16 sigh, back to Wahrscheinlichkeitstheorie :( Feb 13 14:54:28 heh Feb 13 14:54:42 * koen goes back the Waarschijnlijkheidstheorie Feb 13 14:54:47 Wahrscheinlichkeitstheorie huh... long ago that. Feb 13 14:54:47 s/the/to/ Feb 13 14:54:50 stefan_schmidt: sure? i can see the links here Feb 13 14:55:05 just mousehover over them Feb 13 14:55:13 * alphaone too Feb 13 14:55:37 Elrond: yeah, very long ago... so long I've forgotten everything about it Feb 13 14:55:40 mickeyl: hmm, the links for the *planet* feeds? They were under the subscriber links box once ago. Feb 13 14:55:55 th eopml, atom and rss ones Feb 13 14:56:14 koen: right Feb 13 14:56:26 oh these ones Feb 13 14:56:29 right Feb 13 14:56:31 they're gone Feb 13 14:56:40 a turing test ;) Feb 13 14:56:49 Stephmw - IÄm supposed to know that all still. ;) Feb 13 14:57:46 anyway, another learn session is waiting on me. cu later. Feb 13 14:57:55 good luck Feb 13 14:58:17 Stephmw - Yep, good luck. Feb 13 14:58:26 stefan_schmidt - Yep, good luck. Feb 13 14:58:30 * alphaone will switch workspaces and start learning again... Feb 13 14:58:54 http://feeds.feedburner.com/~r/weblogsinc/engadgetmobile/~3/90253825/ that looks like one neat chip Feb 13 15:00:11 I heard FIC is going to put a quadcore opteron in v2 Feb 13 15:00:25 probably comes with binary nvidia blob Feb 13 15:00:29 koen: only after the V12 gives it power Feb 13 15:00:32 koen: what? not a V8 engine? Feb 13 15:00:45 ah, V12 :) Feb 13 15:00:45 ~V12 Feb 13 15:00:49 methinks v12 is the next must-have in the Neo1973, http://www.ultimatestupidity.com/pics/1/diesel/ Feb 13 15:00:50 actually the nvidia thingy is intended to power phoens ;) Feb 13 15:01:37 buz: you assume that nvidia will release source for their chips Feb 13 15:01:53 actually i think it comes with x86 only drivers *EG* Feb 13 15:03:01 fluffs: didn't they eventually do that for forcedeth? Feb 13 15:10:35 Hello OpenMoko World! Feb 13 15:13:31 Hi marcfiu Feb 13 15:13:59 anyone taking bets on wether they'll meet the next code deadline? Feb 13 15:16:09 Hey Elrond Feb 13 15:17:32 fluffs: well, with 'them' in here... it's a little, I dunno, impolite? at least do it behind their backs :) Feb 13 15:18:47 hey cprf, your down rt 1 from me. What does a ocaml hacker want with a linux phone? :) Feb 13 15:21:22 fluffs: stuff slips all the time... hardware is well, hard to get right. I think most of us are hoping they'll catch a break and deliver something soon. Personally, I'm fine with the software not being perfect. Feb 13 15:22:53 On a different topic, from what I gather everything will be open except for the driver that controls the GSM radio. Is that about right? Feb 13 15:25:14 marcfiu: no Feb 13 15:25:18 Since the 3-week delay is only for the hardware (just 3 days for software), it's no big deal really ... just means that more work has to be done under emulation, but that's probably easier/faster than on the real hardware. Feb 13 15:25:29 marcfiu: the gsm part is a seperate module, so no driver needed Feb 13 15:25:41 marcfiu: the only closed part is the gps daemon Feb 13 15:25:53 "emulation" Feb 13 15:27:31 Morgaine - Hi! And yes. Feb 13 15:29:00 koen: aye, I didn't mean emulation, hehe, I meant running your stuff native in your host, within xoo. It's nothing to do with emulation, but what's the word for that? Feb 13 15:30:06 "make belief" Feb 13 15:30:12 HJehehehe Feb 13 15:30:32 * koen was planning to run it on a arm machine with VGA display Feb 13 15:31:11 Wish I could find a USB graphics device for the Slug, just for that kind of ting. Feb 13 15:31:17 thing* Feb 13 15:31:51 Rare as hen's teeth Feb 13 15:31:59 USB2? Feb 13 15:32:08 not manufactured, or just hard to find? Feb 13 15:32:08 The slug Feb 13 15:32:15 there is one Feb 13 15:32:16 * koen looks at the usbvga thing on his desk Feb 13 15:32:23 Morgaine: like what, VGA, or just a little display? Feb 13 15:32:26 They used to be around, just rare nowadays Feb 13 15:32:37 it's about 50 euros, available from mulitple webshops Feb 13 15:32:48 Robot101: no no, it's a graphics adapter, but hangs off USB. No display Feb 13 15:32:49 koen: thanks for the info. Feb 13 15:32:52 Linux drivers are questionable for many AIUI. Feb 13 15:33:49 Robot101: just like you get USB audio adapters, same idea. Feb 13 15:33:56 yeah Feb 13 15:34:17 On the other hand, I'd quite like a 1" OLED USB thing. Feb 13 15:34:30 128*128 or so. Feb 13 15:34:46 like those funky 3-key oled usb things? Feb 13 15:34:51 Yeah. Feb 13 15:35:06 Look at the price of low end MP3 players with oled screens. Feb 13 15:35:21 Mono, or area colour. It can't be high in volume. Feb 13 15:35:31 koen: I have a rather dumb question... as a future project I might have an opportunity to collaborate with someone who has a software-based BTS and if possible I'd like to have the openmoko phone communicate with this BTS using the conventional GSM protocols within an unlicensed frequency band. Is it possible to tune the frequencies that the phone will use in order to do this? Feb 13 15:35:37 Would be nice to stick on the front of machines too. Those 16x2 serial LCDs are a bit long in the tooth. Feb 13 15:36:26 ~bts Feb 13 15:36:31 marcfiu - Probably not in a open documented way. Feb 13 15:36:31 bts is probably a bug tracking system, or http://bugs.kde.org Feb 13 15:36:48 My ideal 'hacker' device at the moment would look like a small 4 port powered USB hub, have a 1" OLED display on top, run linux on a 200Mhz+ processor, with 64M ROM and RAM. Feb 13 15:36:49 marcfiu: that's not a dumb question. unfortunately the answer is "no". we don't have access to that kind of functionality, since the gsm module handles everything in a transparent way throught an AT interface. Feb 13 15:36:59 koen: that is, we can likely futz around with the frequencies that the software-based BTS will work with, so I am looking for a "hackable" phone that I can do this with. Feb 13 15:37:10 BTS? Feb 13 15:37:18 there is no way you get such a phone approved Feb 13 15:37:23 your best bet is OSSRP Feb 13 15:38:00 SpeedEvil: BTS == base transceiver station. The thing that mobile phones communicate with. Feb 13 15:38:04 marcfiu: i don't know about such phone, you've to build one yourself probably... Feb 13 15:38:07 Ah. Feb 13 15:38:18 Yep. Feb 13 15:38:19 marcfiu: radio amateurs want that kind of stuff too. But that sort of frequency programmability will never appear in commercial cellphone gear. Feb 13 15:38:31 I don't know. Feb 13 15:38:36 With 'one chip' phones, it might. Feb 13 15:39:01 If they can be cracked and linux run on them. Feb 13 15:39:14 However, this means writing your own GSM stack, which is complex. Feb 13 15:39:14 no way via AT commands Feb 13 15:39:19 Yeah. Feb 13 15:39:47 mickeyl: I'm not really a radio / cell phone type of person... what is OSSRP? Feb 13 15:39:57 It's not really related to bug tracking systems at all though. This is more general topic of "flexible/open amateur RF device". Feb 13 15:40:00 open source software controlled radio stack Feb 13 15:40:35 but you may have a hard time implementing a gsm stack using that Feb 13 15:40:39 gsm is _huuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge_ Feb 13 15:40:46 mickeyl: understood. Feb 13 15:41:00 And the networks generally will really not want you doing this. Feb 13 15:41:02 marcfiu: you want a modular phone, where you can unplug the GSM module (or the camera or whatever) and plug in your special purpose RF module. Feb 13 15:41:04 mickeyl: of course, the company that has the BTS has something closed source. Feb 13 15:41:05 mickeyl - Huh, is gsm really that annoying? Feb 13 15:41:16 GSM is really complex. Feb 13 15:41:17 Elrond: worse! :) Feb 13 15:41:25 And there is no cheap way to test it. Feb 13 15:41:26 there's billions of $$$ IP in a gsm stack Feb 13 15:41:52 As a cell site costs many tens of thousands of pounds. Feb 13 15:41:53 mickeyl: there's billions of $$$ in Linux ;-) Feb 13 15:41:56 Even a small one. Feb 13 15:42:13 And you can't legally operate one in many countries. Feb 13 15:42:16 SpeedEvil: well, why would the "networks" not want me to do this? The whole point is to do the communication between the phone and the BTS in an unlicensed band within radio power requirements set low. Feb 13 15:42:27 Oh - right. Feb 13 15:42:42 I was assuming you were wanting to talk to GSM networks. Feb 13 15:43:17 Radios are unlikely to be very flexible IMO. Feb 13 15:43:48 marcfiu: there's wifi you know. Not as long range for the first hop, but just as good in many towns. Feb 13 15:43:50 wont the openmoko be a triband or quadband phone? Feb 13 15:43:54 quad Feb 13 15:43:58 :) Feb 13 15:44:13 www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl Feb 13 15:44:25 Ah - a spammer. Feb 13 15:44:29 How refreshing. Feb 13 15:44:42 0 seconds between joining and posting ... Feb 13 15:44:48 holland is hardly exotic Feb 13 15:44:49 A spammer from Leek, I went to high school there... Feb 13 15:44:51 ~lart felicia5 Feb 13 15:44:56 Leek? Feb 13 15:45:04 eek Feb 13 15:45:06 Leek, a town in Groningen, Netherlands. Feb 13 15:45:28 Funky. I only knew it as a vegetable. Feb 13 15:45:47 i guess it's pronounced "lake" though Feb 13 15:46:00 It's the national vegetable of Wales! (Or something like that) Feb 13 15:46:13 heuh? orange is for sale? :S Feb 13 15:46:19 * SpeedEvil buys orange. Feb 13 15:46:30 SpeedEvil: do it :) make it open Feb 13 15:46:39 s/open/open mobile/ Feb 13 15:46:42 * SpeedEvil realises he doesn't have enough pocket change. Feb 13 15:46:47 aww Feb 13 15:46:58 SpeedEvil must have a very understanding bank manager Feb 13 15:47:26 it would be cool, if someone with an open (source) mind bought it... Feb 13 15:47:29 Actually - he's threatening to take me to court at the moment. Feb 13 15:47:34 Hehehe Feb 13 15:47:37 but the most likely buyer will be t-mobile Feb 13 15:47:43 wich is great too... I guess Feb 13 15:47:49 You are limited in what you can do by your obligations to shareholders. Feb 13 15:47:53 I have orange broadband internet Feb 13 15:47:56 and I hate it :P Feb 13 15:48:07 Actually, I was pretty surprised to hear that Orange were in on the GPE project. Not sure in what capacity though. Feb 13 15:48:10 www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl Feb 13 15:48:12 www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl www.exotic-chat.nl Feb 13 15:48:15 Sigh. Feb 13 15:48:18 mickeyl: hey Feb 13 15:48:19 felicia5: shutit Feb 13 15:48:27 ~hail zecke Feb 13 15:48:30 * SpeedEvil doubts it's a real person. Feb 13 15:48:34 :P Feb 13 15:48:50 Course it's not, it's an idiot ;-) Feb 13 15:48:57 * #openmoko :You need to be a channel operator to do that Feb 13 15:48:59 :( Feb 13 15:49:02 mickeyl: :) Feb 13 15:49:15 * LuitvD really wanted to kick someone Feb 13 15:49:21 zecke: how's the wheather in barcelona? Feb 13 15:49:34 mickeyl: I'm back in berlin :) Feb 13 15:49:36 oh Feb 13 15:49:41 zecke: how's the wheather in berlin? ;) Feb 13 15:49:48 mickeyl: rainy Feb 13 15:50:10 zecke: ah, so you stole our rain ^^ Feb 13 15:50:25 Morgaine - BTW: What happened to waldo? ;) Feb 13 15:50:41 I ssh'd to Berlin with packet forwarding and tunnelled British weather to there, sorry guys. Feb 13 15:50:44 New password: Feb 13 15:50:44 Re-type new password: Feb 13 15:50:44 michael.lauer:{SHA}xQNInoq6O/VTzWDx/3mY7uZka70= Feb 13 15:50:51 oops Feb 13 15:51:00 hehe, using LDAP admin? Feb 13 15:51:03 * SpeedEvil starts shacrack. Feb 13 15:51:06 time to change your hash Feb 13 15:51:09 hehe Feb 13 15:52:25 The neo comes with ldap? ;) Feb 13 15:52:47 what else would you use for directory services? Feb 13 15:53:07 Elrond: Waldo stopped work for national cybertronics holiday ... sucks, he'll have a WD40 hangover for a week afterwards. Feb 13 15:53:27 Just can't get the staff these days Feb 13 15:53:40 Clint: uucp? Feb 13 15:53:45 * Clint laughs. Feb 13 15:53:50 Morgaine - so no cake analysis till then? Feb 13 15:54:21 SpeedEvil - I already suggested uucp-over-bt for neo-to-neo communication. :) Feb 13 15:54:29 Elrond: I told LuitvD he's won (temporarily), until we find a way around his AI. Feb 13 15:54:59 Morgaine - Ahh, okay. :) Feb 13 15:55:13 Wow, the word "uucp" twice in one week .... Feb 13 15:55:52 yep, "fasinating". ;) Feb 13 15:56:06 np: Audiobullys Vs Nancy Sinatra - Bang Bang. Feb 13 15:57:24 Hmm, except my dad's phone, there's nothing with BT I could reach. :-| Feb 13 15:57:33 Morgaine, Elrond: upgraded my defence system with 3 backup systems of AI v13.3.7 Feb 13 15:58:00 LuitvD: see if we care. /me munches a Danish pastry instead Feb 13 15:58:11 :| Feb 13 15:58:13 meh Feb 13 15:58:53 have my chocolate, I'm off for some 'chokoflockenkuche' :) Feb 13 15:59:16 Hmmm ... wonder if Babfish will cope with that Feb 13 15:59:21 ch9ocolate chip ccookie? Feb 13 15:59:22 lol Feb 13 15:59:27 cake Feb 13 15:59:34 SpeedEvil: found em... we just need www.phidgets.com to make oled-based stuff :) Feb 13 15:59:45 0_o Feb 13 15:59:47 koen: go find some at the Lidl, it's great stuff :P Feb 13 16:00:00 burbuja: hi Bubbles ;-) Feb 13 16:00:36 As opposed to "bruja" Feb 13 16:00:38 Morgane: Hiiiiiii :D Feb 13 16:00:44 Morgaine - curd with tangerines for dessert here. :) Feb 13 16:00:46 Morgane: jejejeje Feb 13 16:01:27 Elrond: not had curd for a decade at least Feb 13 16:01:39 I'm not a "bruja" I'm a powerpuff girl jejeje XD Feb 13 16:01:48 burbuja: Eeek Feb 13 16:01:51 * Morgaine runs Feb 13 16:01:56 ajajaja Feb 13 16:02:10 burbujajajajaja? Feb 13 16:02:16 :P Feb 13 16:02:16 yeaaah ajajaja Feb 13 16:02:26 dios mio Feb 13 16:02:42 burbuja: http://www.iiiiiiii.com/ ? Feb 13 16:02:43 spanish? jiji Feb 13 16:02:48 The language of beaches Feb 13 16:03:00 LuitvD: click Feb 13 16:03:01 SpeedEvil: a start... but $750 is the price for eval boards :( http://www.domaintec.com/A3P-OLED.html#OrderingInformation Feb 13 16:03:02 :) Feb 13 16:03:26 Morgaine - You need political asylum? ;o) Feb 13 16:04:18 Elrond: hehehehehe. Not AFAIAA, but I've often wondered if I'd be let into USA as I'm highly critical of politicians ;-) Feb 13 16:04:41 LuitvD: http://www.homestead.com/coquetas/burbio.html Feb 13 16:05:01 Morgaine - I'm not in that country. I don't want to go there either. :) Feb 13 16:05:16 SpeedEvil: another one, but the OLED is tiny.. $49 http://www.luminarymicro.com/products/ekk-lm3s811_evaluation_kit.html Feb 13 16:05:18 burbuja: lol, that's not what I meant... ajajajaj made me think of iiiiiiii.com :P Feb 13 16:05:31 LuitvD: ajajajaja Feb 13 16:05:34 LOL, coquetas, funny Feb 13 16:06:41 :) Feb 13 16:07:57 ardilla is squirrel, yes? Feb 13 16:08:05 yap Feb 13 16:08:13 k Feb 13 16:08:42 I don't usually ask for squirrels, it's cerveza more often Feb 13 16:09:35 cerveza? jejejeje i like a lot, specially the Artesanal Red Feb 13 16:12:13 Anyway. I'm getting home. commiting some stuff or fixing the laser cooling for the hyperspace beam thing. ;) Feb 13 16:12:30 SpeedEvil: and lastly, the optimus stuff, http://store.artlebedev.com/catalog/computer_add-ons/ Feb 13 16:12:39 Stephmw: what about that oled stuff? Feb 13 16:12:52 Hehe, cyl El Feb 13 16:12:57 Stephmw: what should it be used for again? Feb 13 16:13:02 Morgaine - Laters. :) Feb 13 16:13:15 LuitvD: any odd gadget ;-) Feb 13 16:13:38 Stephmw: phidgets are way to expensive Feb 13 16:15:20 I have an OLED display here (20x2 chars) for about 10 bucks, I can get a microcontroller for about the same amount of money, a pair (10 actually) of mosfets for 3 bucks, and a bunch of connectors for about 5 bucks Feb 13 16:15:56 add 10 bucks to that for the PCB and you have the same thing for about 40 bucks Feb 13 16:16:29 but you'd have to spend money building it Feb 13 16:16:50 and at lease a few cents on shipping Feb 13 16:16:54 *least Feb 13 16:17:02 that little board looks like fun Feb 13 16:20:54 pricy though :( Feb 13 16:21:05 god knows how much the fullsize keyboard will cost Feb 13 16:21:24 Stephmw: BT one? Feb 13 16:21:34 hrw: that Optimus OLED one Feb 13 16:21:48 hrw: don't think the neo will have enough juice to power it :) Feb 13 16:25:44 ;) Feb 13 16:31:29 Stephmw: somewhere I found a 1.5" or so OLED for 20 quid. Feb 13 16:31:32 * SpeedEvil ponders. Feb 13 16:32:03 SpeedEvil: I'd be interested in a similar device ;) Feb 13 16:32:24 * Stephmw ponders usb-ethernet dongle for neo Feb 13 16:33:35 Stephmw: with power by PoE, that would be nice. Feb 13 16:35:18 Aha. Feb 13 16:35:20 http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/categories.php Feb 13 16:36:15 1.4" 128*128 OLED - 17 quid. Feb 13 16:36:19 $35 US Feb 13 16:36:40 The D-Link DWL-P200 PoE units have never given me any trouble btw, in case anyone's considering one. Feb 13 16:37:31 * Stephmw looks up the wiring diagram Feb 13 16:38:14 SpeedEvil: doesn't seem to include the controller Feb 13 16:38:50 No. Feb 13 16:39:58 It actaully does have the controller. Feb 13 16:40:06 It's not USB, or ... though. Feb 13 16:43:39 it's SPI at least Feb 13 16:44:31 I think we're trashing sparkfun's server ;) Feb 13 16:45:19 They do have some interesting stuff. Feb 13 16:46:49 Stephmw: they are moving servers this week Feb 13 16:46:54 'GSM module with GPS', ... Feb 13 16:49:23 counter Feb 13 16:49:23 source: a day 18:37:34 (1.776 days); P0: 15.776; P1: 46.776; P2: 229.776 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (297) Feb 13 16:50:57 koen: what kinds of framerates can your usbvga dongle sustain? Feb 13 16:51:16 so it got delayed a couple of weeks? Feb 13 16:51:37 Looks like hardware, yes. Feb 13 16:51:45 there were problems with internal cabling. Feb 13 16:52:05 Source delayed a few days too. Feb 13 16:52:30 i see Feb 13 16:53:34 well, have a good day...gotta get back to work Feb 13 16:56:23 SpeedEvil: no prices, http://www.trident-uk.co.uk/component_displays/colour_modules/oled/ Feb 13 16:57:33 Yeah - there are lots and lots of places with no prices. Feb 13 17:00:39 found one... optional usb interface too Feb 13 17:00:56 http://www.dontronics-shop.com/product.php?productid=16535&cat=263&page=1 44 EUR Feb 13 17:06:08 :/ Feb 13 17:08:26 * mjr sent in his registration to pester Sean in person on the 21th Feb 13 17:08:48 the finnish thing? Feb 13 17:08:48 (he's visiting Finland before FOSDEM) Feb 13 17:08:51 yea Feb 13 17:09:21 st... stupid English ordinal number system ;) Feb 13 17:10:03 hey all Feb 13 17:20:57 Any further information about visit to Finland? Feb 13 17:28:54 * LuitvD is bored Feb 13 17:29:03 * LuitvD spins around in his chair... Feb 13 17:29:09 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:29:12 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:03) Feb 13 17:29:17 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:29:25 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:02) Feb 13 17:29:29 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:29:33 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:00) Feb 13 17:29:36 lol, speeding up :) Feb 13 17:33:07 LuitvD: i'm bored too :( Feb 13 17:33:29 * LuitvD still can't wait for the src to be released Feb 13 17:33:35 * SpeedEvil passes LuitvD a V2. Feb 13 17:33:48 ? Feb 13 17:34:03 V2 what? Feb 13 17:34:03 Doesn't everyone want an early IRBM? :) Feb 13 17:34:31 lol, I certainly do Feb 13 17:35:01 * LuitvD loves the Taepodong-1 Feb 13 17:36:15 whereisbot: help Feb 13 17:36:16 Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/project/whereisbot/) Feb 13 17:36:17 Commands: iamhere, whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak Feb 13 17:36:18 whereisbot? Feb 13 17:36:19 Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner. Feb 13 17:36:21 play with whereisbot Feb 13 17:36:23 .whereami Feb 13 17:36:24 [off] ajturner is probably in Royal Oak, MI, US [42.5086 x -83.1546] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.5086,-83.1546+(ajturner) Feb 13 17:36:29 .whereis LuitvD Feb 13 17:36:31 whereami Feb 13 17:36:32 LuitvD is hiding behind the tapestries (beigetower/luitvd) Feb 13 17:36:37 :D Feb 13 17:36:39 wohoo Feb 13 17:36:42 .whereis SpeedEvil Feb 13 17:36:44 SpeedEvil is hiding behind the tapestries (tor/regular/SpeedEvil) Feb 13 17:36:49 bah - tor! Feb 13 17:36:55 .whereis ajturner Feb 13 17:36:57 .whereis incinerator Feb 13 17:36:59 [off] ajturner is probably in Royal Oak, MI, US [42.5086 x -83.1546] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.5086,-83.1546+(ajturner) Feb 13 17:37:01 [off] incinerator is probably in Dundee, UK (guessed) [56.5 x -2.9667] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=56.5,-2.9667+(incinerator) Feb 13 17:37:17 you can use iamhere Feb 13 17:37:22 whereisbot: help iamhere Feb 13 17:37:24 '.iamhere - Sets your current location (e.g. San Francisco, CA)' Feb 13 17:37:30 whereisbot: help .iamhere Feb 13 17:37:32 ups Feb 13 17:37:32 Sorry, no documentation for .iamhere. Feb 13 17:37:39 * SpeedEvil is currently 15m nw of http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=56.21678+-3.111850+(home)&ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=56.249836,-3.111877&spn=0.146489,0.531464&om=0&iwloc=addr Feb 13 17:37:41 whereisbot: help iamhere Feb 13 17:37:43 '.iamhere - Sets your current location (e.g. San Francisco, CA)' Feb 13 17:38:01 .iamhere 15m nw of http://maps.google.co.uk/?q=56.21678+-3.111850+(home)&ie=UTF8&z=11&ll=56.249836,-3.111877&spn=0.146489,0.531464&om=0&iwloc=addr Feb 13 17:38:08 Sorry, I don't know where that is Feb 13 17:38:13 SpeedEvil, give the city/country name Feb 13 17:38:13 .iamhere Zeist, Utrecht, NL Feb 13 17:38:15 now I know you're in Zeist, NETHERLANDS [52.099998 x 5.23] Feb 13 17:38:20 :) Feb 13 17:38:24 yup Feb 13 17:38:49 want to write a client to optionally set your location using your Neo1973 ;) Feb 13 17:38:56 :) Feb 13 17:38:57 yay Feb 13 17:39:18 right now it's using hostip.info Feb 13 17:39:24 ajturner: wrong statement, it should be: "I want a Neo1973" ;) Feb 13 17:39:38 I have filed my requests & reasoning w/ the core team Feb 13 17:39:40 I do Feb 13 17:39:42 zipola, about the Finland visit; mjr.iki.fi/openmoko/openmoko4.pdf (mostly finnish) Feb 13 17:39:50 +http:// Feb 13 17:39:54 going to several location confs this spring/summer and want to demo it during my talks Feb 13 17:40:19 mjr: Thanks. Feb 13 17:40:19 :) Feb 13 17:40:26 oh, also http://www.coss.fi/web/coss/events?p_p_id=86 Feb 13 17:40:40 (mostly English) Feb 13 17:40:42 .whereisspeak on Feb 13 17:40:44 whereis new user announcement turned on Feb 13 17:40:51 this usually weirds people out Feb 13 17:40:58 wait for the next person to join the channel Feb 13 17:41:13 ajturner: hostip.info tells me I'm in Leiden... Feb 13 17:41:19 update it Feb 13 17:41:19 that's 50km off Feb 13 17:41:24 that's also a problem w/ IP geolocation Feb 13 17:41:30 but if you tell it, it learns Feb 13 17:41:43 probably someone else witha similar IP used it in Leiden Feb 13 17:41:51 lol Feb 13 17:41:55 I was just in Amsterdam in Sept :) Feb 13 17:42:00 nope, I've got a dynamic IP Feb 13 17:42:03 even worse Feb 13 17:42:11 [off] cying is probably in (Unknown City?), XX [ x ] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+(cying) Feb 13 17:42:20 mobile IP is even worst Feb 13 17:42:31 I've been located in Texas - over 1500miles away Feb 13 17:42:38 * LuitvD jumps Feb 13 17:42:57 [off] LuitvD is in Zeist, Utrecht, NETHERLANDS (set) [52.1 x 5.23] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.1,5.23+(LuitvD) Feb 13 17:43:01 :) Feb 13 17:43:04 yup Feb 13 17:43:05 now it knows :) Feb 13 17:43:23 aah, it points to the wrong place Feb 13 17:43:24 btw - [off] is there since any channel loggers usually ignore [off] commands as 'off the record' Feb 13 17:43:43 how so? Feb 13 17:43:54 bah - google geocoding Feb 13 17:44:11 ajturner: it's the wrong part of this city :P Feb 13 17:44:36 this is what comes up when you just search googlemaps: http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=en&q=Zeist,+Utrecht,+Netherlands&ie=UTF8&sll=52.108825,5.239105&sspn=0.261461,0.592575&z=11&ll=52.114939,5.262451&spn=0.261426,0.817795&om=1 Feb 13 17:44:48 yeah, the mapping for various providers is known to be bad in regions Feb 13 17:44:54 try 52.081024,5.225541 Feb 13 17:44:57 yahoo - for example - is abysmal in New Zealand & Australia Feb 13 17:45:02 I don't own gmaps data ;) Feb 13 17:45:03 that's the exact location of my computer : Feb 13 17:45:04 :P Feb 13 17:45:06 nice Feb 13 17:45:13 the exact place :P Feb 13 17:45:58 look at the sattelite images Feb 13 17:46:07 and zoom DOWN Feb 13 17:46:13 aaaall the way doooown Feb 13 17:46:15 try iamhere with the lat/lon Feb 13 17:46:16 :P Feb 13 17:46:26 .iamhere http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.081024,5.225541 Feb 13 17:46:30 :P Feb 13 17:46:32 now I know you're in MILTON, US [38.4266 x -82.1441] Feb 13 17:46:32 no, just lat,lon Feb 13 17:46:49 wow, that's far off Feb 13 17:46:59 .iamhere 52.081024,5.225541 Feb 13 17:47:02 now I know you're in , [52.081024 x 5.225541] Feb 13 17:47:09 .whereami Feb 13 17:47:11 [off] LuitvD is in ,, (set) [52.081 x 5.22554] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.081,5.22554+(LuitvD) Feb 13 17:47:23 well, map is right - just doesn't let you know where that is ;) Feb 13 17:47:35 hrm, guess I should add reverse geocoding Feb 13 17:47:36 well... Feb 13 17:47:51 it's off about 3 meters Feb 13 17:47:52 :P Feb 13 17:48:09 .whereami Feb 13 17:48:13 [off] koen is probably in Enschede, NL [52.2167 x 6.9] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.2167,6.9+(koen) Feb 13 17:48:14 :) Feb 13 17:48:21 enschede... Feb 13 17:48:24 is that true? Feb 13 17:48:47 yes Feb 13 17:48:50 Why would he lie about it? :D Feb 13 17:49:08 it told me I was in Leiden... Feb 13 17:49:42 and IIRC, my house is in zeist :) Feb 13 17:50:02 LuitvD - obviously you're misinformed Feb 13 17:50:05 Hah Feb 13 17:50:20 lol Feb 13 17:50:55 * LuitvD is bored again Feb 13 17:51:00 * LuitvD spins again Feb 13 17:51:04 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:51:09 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:02) Feb 13 17:51:19 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:51:29 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:51:33 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:00) Feb 13 17:51:38 LuitvD: you flooder Feb 13 17:51:39 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:51:43 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:02) Feb 13 17:51:47 * LuitvD is away: spinning Feb 13 17:51:51 * LuitvD is back (gone 00:00:03) Feb 13 17:51:53 * LuitvD is dizzy Feb 13 17:51:55 hrw: :) Feb 13 17:51:56 /ignore LuitvD all Feb 13 17:52:04 no usefull conversations going now, so it's okay... right? Feb 13 17:52:09 bye LuitvD - few days in ignore list Feb 13 17:52:14 * LuitvD promises he won't do it again Feb 13 17:52:50 :) tried /ignore LuitvD for myself... It won't work Feb 13 17:53:44 * SuN throws a closed-source Motorola EZX phone at LuitvD Feb 13 17:53:54 ^^ Feb 13 17:54:36 * LuitvD catches the Motorola Feb 13 17:54:44 * LuitvD tries hacking the device Feb 13 17:54:45 rebooterola Feb 13 17:54:54 heuh? :P Feb 13 17:54:55 craporola? Feb 13 17:55:15 notorola Feb 13 17:55:18 I have a new catchphase Feb 13 17:55:24 OMG PRODUCTIVE!!!!! Feb 13 17:55:29 ? Feb 13 17:55:36 Well let's hope it's indeed a phase. Feb 13 17:55:49 where 'productive' means 'do nothing for 4 years' Feb 13 17:55:59 * koen looks at gtk+ dudes with a mean eye Feb 13 17:56:41 Hey, it's open source. Fix it yourself ;) Feb 13 17:56:48 koen must be talking about phd students Feb 13 17:56:59 Threy've done something. Feb 13 17:57:23 SuN: heh, the case in point is the fix being available, but gtk+ people being too lazy to apply the patch Feb 13 17:57:30 I can't fix that myself Feb 13 17:57:35 My GTK 1.1 libs aren't new enough to build anything against anymore... Feb 13 17:57:37 short of forking gtk+ Feb 13 17:57:40 i'm just angry about the one writing the exam tomorrow... Feb 13 17:57:44 1.2 Feb 13 17:57:51 SpeedEvil: xmms Feb 13 17:58:49 [off] greentux is probably in Ulaanbaatar, MN (guessed) [47.9167 x 106.883] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.9167,106.883+(greentux) Feb 13 17:59:13 .whereis whereisbot Feb 13 17:59:14 .whereami Feb 13 17:59:15 [off] whereisbot is in NORTHVILLE, MI, US (set) [42.431 x -83.4846] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.431,-83.4846+(whereisbot) Feb 13 17:59:18 [off] buz is probably in Basel, CH (guessed) [47.55 x 7.58333] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.55,7.58333+(buz) Feb 13 17:59:34 mhh not really but close enough on a global scale Feb 13 18:00:33 [off] goxboxlive is probably in Oslo, NO [59.95 x 10.7] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=59.95,10.7+(goxboxlive) Feb 13 18:00:49 .whereami Feb 13 18:00:51 will it guess or not? Feb 13 18:00:52 ah. Feb 13 18:01:03 [off] leventhal is probably in Enschede, NL [52.2167 x 6.9] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.2167,6.9+(leventhal) Feb 13 18:01:10 Heh. Way off. Feb 13 18:01:11 [off] dottedmag is probably in Novosibirsk, RU [55.0333 x 82.9167] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=55.0333,82.9167+(dottedmag) Feb 13 18:01:12 dottedmag is hiding behind the tapestries (rtfm.google-it.info) Feb 13 18:01:12 .whereami Feb 13 18:01:14 .whereami Feb 13 18:01:19 [off] ml8128 is probably in Rouen, FR [49.4333 x 1.08333] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=49.4333,1.08333+(ml8128) Feb 13 18:01:27 [off] ml8128 is probably in Enschede, NL [52.2167 x 6.9] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.2167,6.9+(ml8128) Feb 13 18:01:36 .whereami Feb 13 18:01:39 sorry - it doesn't handle multiple requests at once well Feb 13 18:01:41 [off] maydaytx is probably in Temple, TX, US (guessed) [31.0977 x -97.3635] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=31.0977,-97.3635+(maydaytx) Feb 13 18:01:43 .whereami Feb 13 18:01:57 [off] hrw is probably in Enschede, NL [52.2167 x 6.9] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.2167,6.9+(hrw) Feb 13 18:01:57 about 20Km fauil in airline :-) Cool though Feb 13 18:02:15 .whereami Feb 13 18:02:19 [off] goxboxlive is probably in Oslo, NO [59.95 x 10.7] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=59.95,10.7+(goxboxlive) Feb 13 18:02:20 ajturner: it check hostname? Feb 13 18:02:32 hrw: wanna grab a beer, since your in enschede? Feb 13 18:02:47 ajturner: Does it handle ipv6? Feb 13 18:02:53 koen: if I would be there I would call you directly instead of being on irc ;D Feb 13 18:02:58 :) Feb 13 18:03:02 cu Feb 13 18:03:12 ircbots contest till sources are out ? :) Feb 13 18:03:12 leventhal - no Feb 13 18:03:18 heh Feb 13 18:03:28 hrw - using IP addr Feb 13 18:03:28 Ah, okay.. that'd explain why it was off Feb 13 18:03:41 Canadian using a british ipv6 tunnel here Feb 13 18:03:58 .whereis leventhal Feb 13 18:04:01 leventhal is hiding behind the tapestries (rtfm.google-it.info) Feb 13 18:04:32 yeah, so it's currenlty using hostip.info Feb 13 18:04:39 [off] hrw is probably in Poznan, PL (guessed) [52.4166 x 16.8833] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.4166,16.8833+(hrw) Feb 13 18:04:42 .whereami Feb 13 18:04:47 [off] hrw is probably in Poznan, PL (guessed) [52.4166 x 16.8833] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.4166,16.8833+(hrw) Feb 13 18:04:53 whereisbot: now better ;) Feb 13 18:04:56 cu Feb 13 18:05:03 want to update it to use a Neo client ;) Feb 13 18:06:27 .whereami Feb 13 18:06:31 [off] greentux is probably in Ulaanbaatar, MN (guessed) [47.9167 x 106.883] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.9167,106.883+(greentux) Feb 13 18:06:36 hohoho Feb 13 18:07:52 .whereami Feb 13 18:07:57 nbd is hiding behind the tapestries (openwrt/developer/nbd) Feb 13 18:08:06 [off] Tv is probably in Los Angeles, CA, US [34.1121 x -118.411] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=34.1121,-118.411+(Tv) Feb 13 18:08:31 hah, somebody loves their bots Feb 13 18:08:42 also, not that accurate Feb 13 18:08:44 .whereis whereisbot Feb 13 18:08:46 [off] whereisbot is in NORTHVILLE, MI, US (set) [42.431 x -83.4846] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.431,-83.4846+(whereisbot) Feb 13 18:08:55 .icbm whereisbot Feb 13 18:08:57 ;) Feb 13 18:09:00 .whereami Feb 13 18:09:00 lol Feb 13 18:09:07 [off] Clint is probably in Albuquerque, NM, US (guessed) [35.1172 x -106.625] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=35.1172,-106.625+(Clint) Feb 13 18:09:13 * Clint chuckles. Feb 13 18:09:30 those adultfriendfinder porn ads are much more accurate Feb 13 18:10:27 I vote for kicking the bot. Feb 13 18:12:15 TimRiker is hiding behind the tapestries (pdpc/supporter/bronze/TimRiker) Feb 13 18:12:52 .whereami Feb 13 18:12:57 [off] fluffs is probably in Hildesheim, DE (guessed) [52.15 x 9.95] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.15,9.95+(fluffs) Feb 13 18:13:18 not even the right country Feb 13 18:13:56 fluffs - where are you Feb 13 18:15:03 Manchester, UK Feb 13 18:15:33 slomo is hiding behind the tapestries (ubuntu/member/slomo) Feb 13 18:15:47 fluffs - update your info at hostip.info Feb 13 18:16:02 the machine i connect via is in london Feb 13 18:16:33 see - perfect need for a Neo geo-client, to know where *you* (well, your mobile) is Feb 13 18:16:51 [off] thedaniel is probably in Los Angeles, CA, US [34.1121 x -118.411] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=34.1121,-118.411+(thedaniel) Feb 13 18:20:07 .whereami Feb 13 18:20:10 [off] LuitvD is in ,, (set) [52.081 x 5.22554] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=52.081,5.22554+(LuitvD) Feb 13 18:20:11 :) Feb 13 18:20:21 does know where, but doesnt know where Feb 13 18:20:39 lets see if I can set both city and lat/long Feb 13 18:21:07 .iamhere Zeist, Netherlands [52.081 x 5.22554] Feb 13 18:21:19 now I know you're in STAFFORD, US [38.4501 x -77.4008] Feb 13 18:21:20 ... Feb 13 18:21:31 took some time, and he's got it wrong :P Feb 13 18:21:34 .whereami Feb 13 18:21:36 [off] LuitvD is in STAFFORD, VA, US (set) [38.4501 x -77.4008] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=38.4501,-77.4008+(LuitvD) Feb 13 18:22:02 .iamhere Zeist, Utrecht, NL 52.081,5.22554 Feb 13 18:22:05 now I know you're in STAFFORD, US [38.4501 x -77.4008] Feb 13 18:22:08 ... Feb 13 18:22:12 LuitvD - that won't work Feb 13 18:22:13 right... Feb 13 18:22:18 .iamhere Zeist, Utrecht, NL Feb 13 18:22:19 whatever you pass after the iamhere is geocoded Feb 13 18:22:20 now I know you're in Zeist, NETHERLANDS [52.099998 x 5.23] Feb 13 18:22:33 close enough - now ninjas won't storm your house Feb 13 18:22:37 .iamhere 52.081,5.22554 Zeist, NETHERLANDS Feb 13 18:22:40 now I know you're in Zeist, NETHERLANDS [52.099998 x 5.23] Feb 13 18:22:44 :( Feb 13 18:22:47 .iamhere 52.081,5.22554 Feb 13 18:22:52 now I know you're in , [52.081 x 5.22554] Feb 13 18:23:00 .iamhere 42,42 Noneof, YOURBIZ Feb 13 18:23:03 Sorry, I don't know where that is Feb 13 18:23:09 hehehe, nice one Tv Feb 13 18:23:59 well, the interesting thing is that it's not doing something that anyone else couldn't do on their own Feb 13 18:24:06 any website you visit can track you Feb 13 18:24:36 well, unless you use tor Feb 13 18:24:59 lol, my school sure does need venti-lights Feb 13 18:25:11 (a project of the local healthcare department) Feb 13 18:25:45 a device measuring the quality of the air in classrooms... Feb 13 18:26:03 and our school sure has the worst of all Feb 13 18:26:32 uuh argentina no tiene puntos de referencia aún :( Feb 13 18:26:46 doubt it, there's a school with nuclear stuff in it Feb 13 18:26:53 seen some news a week ago about it Feb 13 18:27:24 in the netherlands? Feb 13 18:29:20 [off] MetaBookfoziS is probably in Heves, HU [47.6 x 20.2833] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.6,20.2833+(MetaBookfoziS) Feb 13 18:30:00 it isn't true:) Feb 13 18:30:06 but yes, heves is in hungary Feb 13 18:30:14 as me:) Feb 13 18:30:48 [off] whitedrought is probably in Woodinville, WA, US (guessed) [47.7462 x -122.112] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=47.7462,-122.112+(whitedrought) Feb 13 18:31:16 PhilKC is hiding behind the tapestries (freenode/staff/about.linux.philkc) Feb 13 18:31:52 who is running this whereisbot? Feb 13 18:32:18 its annoying... Feb 13 18:32:39 not to mention wrong Feb 13 18:32:45 lol Feb 13 18:33:00 arizona <> washington Feb 13 18:33:12 whereisbot whereisbot Feb 13 18:33:16 that's quite a diffrence Feb 13 18:33:20 whereisbot help Feb 13 18:33:24 eh:/ Feb 13 18:33:35 /wherisbot Feb 13 18:33:37 whereisbot: help Feb 13 18:33:39 Hi, I'm whereisbot (a http://highearthorbit.com/project/whereisbot/) Feb 13 18:33:40 .whereisspeak off Feb 13 18:33:43 Commands: iamhere, whereami, wherearethey, whereis, whereisresp, whereisspeak Feb 13 18:33:46 Try "whereisbot: help command?" if stuck. My owner is ajturner. Feb 13 18:33:50 whereis new user announcement turned off Feb 13 18:33:57 ... Feb 13 18:34:06 LuitvD: well in the maps i can't see my ubication, but with the panoramio i can jiji that's /me --> http://www.panoramio.com/photo/800708 Feb 13 18:34:07 one very noisy bot Feb 13 18:34:08 zipola: good one Feb 13 18:34:14 Thank my channel logs. Feb 13 18:34:31 can you tell it to disconnect now? Feb 13 18:34:33 \m/ Feb 13 18:34:52 whereisbot: whereami Feb 13 18:35:43 Elrond: try .whereami Feb 13 18:35:49 .whereami Feb 13 18:35:53 [off] Elrond is probably in (Unknown city), DE (guessed) [ x ] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+(Elrond) Feb 13 18:36:04 lol Feb 13 18:36:23 .wherearethey Feb 13 18:37:04 .whereami Feb 13 18:37:09 [off] mey is probably in Woburn, MA, US [42.4855 x -71.1552] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=42.4855,-71.1552+(mey) Feb 13 18:37:13 .whereami off Feb 13 18:37:15 whereisbot: help whereisresp Feb 13 18:37:17 ".whereisresp - bot internals - please don't look, it's embarrasing." Feb 13 18:37:19 [off] zipola is probably in (Unknown city), EU (guessed) [ x ] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+(zipola) Feb 13 18:37:31 .whereisresp Feb 13 18:37:39 Someone needs to kill that bot. Feb 13 18:37:46 where is an op? Feb 13 18:37:51 * LuitvD is trying Feb 13 18:37:56 I mean, it is quite annoying. Feb 13 18:38:17 .whereis Morgaine Feb 13 18:38:21 [off] Morgaine is probably in (Unknown City?), XX [ x ] http://maps.google.com/maps?q=,+(Morgaine) Feb 13 18:39:48 apt: Feed whereisbot and get it out. Feb 13 18:39:50 * apt_ Takes and get it out., hands it to a profesional 5 star restaurant staff, who expertly shove and get it out. down whereisbot's throat then throws whereisbot out into the back alley with the rest of the trash. Feb 13 18:42:51 Elrond: can apt kick whereisbot? :P Feb 13 18:43:04 .whereisspeak off Feb 13 18:43:07 whereis new user announcement turned off Feb 13 18:43:11 ajturner: already done Feb 13 18:43:13 iz quiet Feb 13 18:43:48 it was there to amuse the bored LuitvD Feb 13 18:43:57 ajturner: ah, right... Feb 13 18:44:20 apt_ , now now, no need to beat up on whereisbot like some thug Feb 13 18:44:41 it was just doing it's assigned, menial task of locating you in it's cute, pink, targeting icon Feb 13 18:46:22 * LuitvD is (still|once again) bored, and still anxious to see the dev wiki and src Feb 13 18:47:10 counter Feb 13 18:47:10 source: a day 16:39:47 (1.694 days); P0: 15.694; P1: 46.694; P2: 229.694 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (298) Feb 13 18:47:17 strike! Feb 13 18:47:17 koen: do you know if openmoko will be EABI? Feb 13 18:48:13 BTW: Reading Laf0rge's posting, it seems, that the main CPU has some control over battery charging?! Feb 13 18:48:54 robtaylor: depends on how you build the kernel Feb 13 18:49:03 iirc, the kernel version is new enough to configure for EABI Feb 13 18:49:21 fluffs: well, by default? Feb 13 18:49:23 eabi? Feb 13 18:49:39 Elrond: depends on the battery charging circuit... some chips have i2c/spi type control channels, others can be controlled by gpio Feb 13 18:49:43 robtaylor: dunno about default Feb 13 18:49:54 LuitvD: standard arm abi, rather than made up linux arm abi Feb 13 18:50:10 robtaylor: linux/arm is the old APCS Feb 13 18:50:34 and i don't understand the compunction to use EABI anyway Feb 13 18:53:49 fluffs - Well, laf0rge's posting suggests, that the cpu has control over the charging thing. Feb 13 18:56:43 counter Feb 13 18:56:43 source: a day 16:30:14 (1.688 days); P0: 15.688; P1: 46.688; P2: 229.688 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (299) Feb 13 18:56:52 * fluffs wonders why he's resorted to begging linux-kernel to gte his patches merged Feb 13 19:01:44 robtaylor: p0 will be oabi, p2 will be eabi Feb 13 19:01:51 robtaylor: according to mickeyl Feb 13 19:02:07 robtaylor: my neo will be eabi pretty fast as well :) Feb 13 19:02:09 and p1 ? :) Feb 13 19:02:49 no idea on that Feb 13 19:03:15 p0 is the device the selected devvers will get right? Feb 13 19:03:58 koen: heh, cool :) Feb 13 19:03:59 about my portable .net port - are you waiting for the new stable release of portable .net before adding it to OE or do you think it's better if there's only one implementation of .Net in OE (Mono) ? Feb 13 19:05:55 more implementations is better, but I think mono is the way to go Feb 13 19:06:08 robtaylor: that's why I asked for an eabi agpsd on the list :) Feb 13 19:08:55 is there going to be an emulation environment? Feb 13 19:09:06 ...linux? Feb 13 19:09:26 qemu? Feb 13 19:09:26 what would you want in an 'emulation environment'? Feb 13 19:10:03 koen, something that can simulate liminitations of the phone, tapi, and interaction Feb 13 19:10:26 you still won't have a 300dpi touchscreen no matter what emulation you throw at it Feb 13 19:10:59 eh, run the software in black and white Feb 13 19:11:04 nor a gsm modem Feb 13 19:11:11 then scale it down onto a 16bit grayscale :D Feb 13 19:11:24 and emulate gps with gmaps Feb 13 19:12:01 is the touchscreen multitouch? Feb 13 19:13:08 wel, lets hope mickey et al will be cool with us integrating it all into OE :) Feb 13 19:14:09 robtaylor: mickeyl should be doing 'mtn commit ; mtn push' tomorrow :) Feb 13 19:14:18 rock :) Feb 13 19:14:22 mtn? Feb 13 19:14:34 m...mercurial? Feb 13 19:14:42 tr2x: yep Feb 13 19:14:46 oh. Feb 13 19:14:54 oope, s/tr2x/thresh/ Feb 13 19:14:58 nevermind :) Feb 13 19:15:12 not mercurial Feb 13 19:15:14 though i so wish it was in git instead Feb 13 19:15:17 monotone. Feb 13 19:15:20 mercurial is so slow Feb 13 19:15:21 yeah, me too. Feb 13 19:15:37 oh, yeah =) Feb 13 19:15:39 mercurial servers crash if the client does ctrl-c during transmit Feb 13 19:15:46 koen: nice :) Feb 13 19:16:07 git is teh coolest, just incredibly hard for new users Feb 13 19:16:18 robtaylor: no problem, you just woke me up ;-) Feb 13 19:16:30 tr2x: sorry! Feb 13 19:16:32 ~counter Feb 13 19:17:01 strike! and a miss Feb 13 19:17:06 ... Feb 13 19:17:10 try without the ~ Feb 13 19:17:12 :P Feb 13 19:19:44 counter Feb 13 19:19:45 source: a day 16:07:12 (1.672 days); P0: 15.672; P1: 46.672; P2: 229.672 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (300) Feb 13 19:19:48 brr Feb 13 19:34:00 robtaylor: any sample code for pixbuf scaling? Feb 13 19:36:34 robtaylor: I have jorn's timetext.c as an example Feb 13 19:36:50 s/example/skeleton/ Feb 13 19:36:50 koen meant: robtaylor: I have jorn's timetext.c as an skeleton Feb 13 19:46:43 koen: hmm, its just a single line Feb 13 19:46:43 ret = gdk_pixbuf_scale_simple (pixbuf, width, height, GDK_INTERP_BILINEAR); Feb 13 19:47:00 pixbuf is orginial, ret is the the scaled one Feb 13 19:47:44 koen: you got devhelp up? Feb 13 19:48:19 koen: to load in an image into a pixbuf Feb 13 19:48:19 nope Feb 13 19:48:25 * koen is on osx Feb 13 19:48:39 koen: get it up, its very useful when codeing gtk :) Feb 13 19:48:51 koen: you suck! Feb 13 19:49:14 does gdk_pixbuf_from_file exist? Feb 13 19:49:20 gdk_pixbuf_loader_new to create a new pixbuf loader Feb 13 19:49:39 * koen reads http://developer.gnome.org/doc/API/2.0/gdk-pixbuf/gdk-pixbuf-file-loading.html Feb 13 19:49:43 oh i mean Feb 13 19:49:44 gdk_pixbuf_loader_new Feb 13 19:49:48 gnng Feb 13 19:49:51 gdk_pixbuf_new_from_file Feb 13 19:50:13 don't even need to use a pixbuf-loader Feb 13 19:52:06 Morgaine - I've fixed laser cooling, it's now using a license free injection coil. :-) Feb 13 20:01:19 koen: if you want me to check over your code, or anything other help, just ping :) Feb 13 20:04:09 robtaylor: do you have an OE checkout handy? Feb 13 20:05:01 koen: unfortunatly not, i dont have enough free disk on this machine Feb 13 20:05:19 koen: that reminds me, i need to get an OE build machine up and ready, i;ll do that now :) Feb 13 20:12:50 robtaylor: http://www.openembedded.org/repo/org.openembedded.dev/packages/gtk+/pixops-test/pixops-test.c Feb 13 20:14:31 it would be great for someone to publish an vmware image of a OE-setup Feb 13 20:18:09 counter Feb 13 20:18:09 source: a day 15:08:48 (1.631 days); P0: 15.631; P1: 46.631; P2: 229.631 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (301) Feb 13 20:18:19 robtaylor: do you spot any obvious errors? Feb 13 20:49:43 <_inca> does anyone have a rough calendar date for this to hit the market? Feb 13 20:50:29 counter Feb 13 20:50:30 source: a day 14:36:27 (1.609 days); P0: 15.609; P1: 46.609; P2: 229.609 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (302) Feb 13 20:51:43 _inca: 229.6 days Feb 13 20:52:12 robtaylor: my test only succeeds in taking 100% cpu and locking up the machine :( Feb 13 20:53:36 <_inca> cool Feb 13 20:57:17 _inca: That's the official launch date Feb 13 20:57:45 _inca: about one and a half month until developers can buy it Feb 13 20:58:06 <_inca> interesting Feb 13 20:58:15 <_inca> how much? Feb 13 20:58:23 $350 Feb 13 20:58:24 $350 Feb 13 20:58:25 not euro? Feb 13 20:58:28 No. Feb 13 20:58:33 dollards Feb 13 20:58:33 ^s Feb 13 20:58:37 oh nice! Feb 13 20:58:46 <_inca> and what carrier(s) are onboard? Feb 13 20:58:46 * thresh converts them to roubles Feb 13 20:58:50 SIM only. Feb 13 20:58:53 So no carrier. Feb 13 20:59:00 Any GSM carrier. Feb 13 20:59:28 ~change 350 usd to rru Feb 13 20:59:34 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,605.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 20:59:38 hmmm Feb 13 20:59:38 hehe Feb 13 20:59:43 ~change 350 usd to rur Feb 13 20:59:48 I guess rru isn't roubles Feb 13 20:59:48 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,605.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 20:59:58 ~change 350$ to rur Feb 13 21:00:00 that doesn't look right Feb 13 21:00:06 ~change 350$ to rbl Feb 13 21:00:07 oh well, i'd better use google directly. Feb 13 21:00:08 that doesn't look right Feb 13 21:00:15 ~change 350 usd to rur Feb 13 21:00:19 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,605.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:00:25 350 U.S. dollars = 9 231.215 Russian rubles Feb 13 21:00:55 ~change 350 usd to rub Feb 13 21:01:00 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 749,550.22 Ruble (BYR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:01:07 heh, byelorussian ones. Feb 13 21:01:19 that's messed up Feb 13 21:01:36 ~change 350 usd to rus Feb 13 21:01:41 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 749,535.60 Ruble (BYR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:01:44 heh Feb 13 21:03:20 ~change 350 usd to eu Feb 13 21:03:25 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 911.680 New Leu (RON) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:03:29 :D Feb 13 21:03:41 ~change 350 usd to euro Feb 13 21:03:51 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 268.450 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:03:53 <_inca> looking pretty sparse... http://www.rentcell.com/coverage-map-usa-gsm.htm Feb 13 21:04:05 ~change 350 usd to czk Feb 13 21:04:09 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 7,554.61 Koruna (CZK) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:04:17 great Feb 13 21:04:20 ~change 350 usd to usd Feb 13 21:04:25 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:04:29 Woo! Feb 13 21:04:40 ~change 350 usd to eur Feb 13 21:04:45 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 268.447 Euro (EUR) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:04:47 ~change 350 usd to rouble Feb 13 21:04:56 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,605.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:04:58 * Clint sighs. Feb 13 21:04:59 Still ~170 quid. Feb 13 21:05:23 Is it just defaulting to that, when it can't find any other? Feb 13 21:05:50 ~change 350 usd to qqq Feb 13 21:05:55 350.00 United States Dollar (USD) makes 87,605.00 Dollar (ZWN) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:08:20 <_inca> bots are evil Feb 13 21:11:00 350 USD makes 500 EUR according to Microsoft Feb 13 21:13:20 With electronic devices I usually calculate with an approximate exchange Rate of 1:1 over here in Germany Feb 13 21:13:41 Much stuff is still ~30% more in the UK than US. Feb 13 21:13:49 It depends really. Feb 13 21:13:53 Not all. Feb 13 21:16:25 SpeedEvil: given the real exchange Rate between USD and EUR this looks like a realistic rate for germany as well - its EU after all Feb 13 21:18:32 Yeah. Feb 13 21:20:14 It's because of VAT that your prices are higher. Feb 13 21:20:34 It's not solely that. Feb 13 21:21:32 I was filling my tank on the autobahn one day, doing mental arithmetic and currency conversion, and clicked off at 1/2 tank, $75. Feb 13 21:22:01 Fuel duties are way higher. Feb 13 21:22:05 DukeOfURL: Fule Taxes != VAT Feb 13 21:22:18 Petrol costs 80p/litre or so. Feb 13 21:22:20 Ok then, UK taxes. Feb 13 21:22:43 Which is what - 3.70 or so per american litre. Feb 13 21:22:54 or $7.30 or so. Feb 13 21:22:57 (us) Feb 13 21:23:01 per gallon. Feb 13 21:23:18 how much is a gallon? ;) Feb 13 21:23:26 I filled up yesterday at $1.89, .56 was tax. Feb 13 21:23:41 ~change 11 NOK to USD Feb 13 21:23:41 A US gallon is 4.05 litres IIRC Feb 13 21:23:46 11.00 Norway Krone (NOK) makes 1.77026 United States Dollar (USD) (from http://www.xe.com/) Feb 13 21:23:51 A UK gallon is 4.54l. Feb 13 21:24:13 I pay 1.77USD/Litre Feb 13 21:24:13 nowadays Feb 13 21:24:32 http://freespace.virgin.net/john.cletheroe/uk/petrol.htm Feb 13 21:24:36 The US sales tax is charged only to the end user. As I understand, VAT is charged at each stage of the manufacturing process. Feb 13 21:24:54 Err - no. Feb 13 21:24:54 DukeOfURL: that's not quite correct Feb 13 21:25:03 VAT is charged on the difference between buy and sell price. Feb 13 21:25:09 That's why I said "as I understand" Feb 13 21:25:18 So if you buy at 9 pounds and sell at 10, you pay VAT on the 1 pound. Feb 13 21:25:42 It _totals_ 17.5% across the whole supply chain. Feb 13 21:26:01 Till it hits the end customer who pays it. Feb 13 21:27:34 I lived in London for two years, and I came home because of taxes. Taxes on the health insurance I purchased, taxes on the car allowance, etc. Feb 13 21:28:19 I loved London, and would have liked to stay. And I believe Englanders are probably the nicest people in the world. Feb 13 21:28:31 But your taxes suck big time. Feb 13 21:28:41 DukeOfURL: UK you charge vat to the customer, and you pay vat on anything you buy. you claim the vat back from the tax office Feb 13 21:29:30 Yes, have you ever tried that. I had 10K GBP in hotel bills that I tried to claim. After five years I', still waiting. Feb 13 21:29:46 I'm Feb 13 21:30:41 yeah, although i was suprised when i got a refund the next year for overpaid taxes i didn't realise i'd overpaid... work miscalculated and didn't get my tax bracket right for the first three months i was there Feb 13 21:33:33 hmm, no merge yet... Feb 13 21:33:39 * fluffs goes to eat and then produce more patches Feb 13 21:35:28 fluffs: How works the whole merge process on a-l-k? I've seen no patches from you russel could merge. No public review via ml, just patch tracker? Feb 13 21:36:18 * stefan_schmidt thinks about merging the ezx stuff when its done. Feb 13 21:40:36 stefan_schmidt: big stuff gets sent to linux-arm-kernel for review, otherwise generally the smaller stuff goes to rmk's patch tracker Feb 13 21:41:35 fluffs: ok Feb 13 21:41:45 the list is subscriber only Feb 13 21:42:02 fluffs: patch tracker list? Feb 13 21:42:10 no, there isn't one of those Feb 13 21:42:16 i'll be back tomorrow :) Feb 13 21:42:25 * LuitvD hopes to see the source then Feb 13 21:42:25 fluffs: ah, I'm already on a-l-k Feb 13 21:42:31 post patches, people will comment Feb 13 21:42:43 if you have a url, i'll view after pixxa Feb 13 21:42:46 pizza even Feb 13 21:43:20 the nice thing about the patch tracker is that at least you know at least rmk is going to look at em, even if he just says no Feb 13 21:43:27 anywya, shower, pizza, patche Feb 13 21:43:46 ~bon appetit Feb 13 21:43:47 this is what openmoko should be running on http://news.com.com/2300-1035_3-6158987-1.html Feb 13 21:43:56 rumour has it, bon appetit is smacznego. Guten Appetit. Eet Smakelijk. God Appetitt. Buon Appetito. Buen apetito Bom Apetite. buen apetito Smaklig måltid!. Hyvää ruokahalua. Bo Proveito Feb 13 21:43:57 ~bon appettit Feb 13 21:44:02 I love the slide out keyboard Feb 13 21:44:27 fluffs: It's not ready for inclusion now, but if you like you can take a look: http://www.openezx.org/download/patches-2.6.16-2.6.16.13-ezx8.tar.bz2 Feb 13 21:47:08 fluffs: Once I understand the genirq there will even be a patch to a newer kernel. Feb 13 21:47:10 It's time that lectures stop for this semester. Need more time for hacking. Feb 13 21:50:17 why was gsm chosen over cdma? Feb 13 21:50:25 Much more common. Feb 13 21:50:40 cdma is only used in some third world backwaters. Feb 13 21:50:43 summatusmentis: cdma is US only and hopefully dead soon. :) Feb 13 21:50:48 SpeedEvil: in the US? or worldwide? Feb 13 21:50:57 GSM is essentially everywhere. Feb 13 21:50:58 bummer Feb 13 21:50:58 summatusmentis: The world uses GSM Feb 13 21:51:09 CDMA is even being turned off in parts of the states. Feb 13 21:51:14 so there's no likelyhood that there'll be an openmoko version for cdma huh? Feb 13 21:51:19 No. Feb 13 21:51:44 And with the lowering volume of CDMA, fewer phones will be offered for it in the future. Feb 13 21:52:26 summatusmentis: cdma is a complete different tech. Not easy to change. Feb 13 21:52:44 figures, as soon as I lock into a new 2 year contract, they start talking about the neo Feb 13 21:52:46 :-/ Feb 13 21:53:06 :( Feb 13 21:53:06 well, and the iPhone for that matter, but I'm more excited about the neo Feb 13 21:53:20 :( Feb 13 21:53:46 bummer, alright, looks like I'll be waiting two years, unless I can convince my parents that I'll get better reception on GSM Feb 13 21:54:20 that is, when I move away for college Feb 13 21:55:02 thanks Feb 13 21:58:13 Australia used to have a cdma network but it's now moving to 3g gsm technolgies, just when the iphone and neo are going back to 2.5g lol back to the future ... Feb 13 21:58:46 v2 will hopefully have 3G Feb 13 21:58:48 3G is comparatively expensive electronically, and with power. Feb 13 21:59:05 * stefan_schmidt needs fast network everywhere. ;) Feb 13 21:59:28 more to the point hopefully it will have wireless every other phone in this category has wireless except the neo Feb 13 21:59:31 stefan_schmidt: what for, if I may be so bold to ask Feb 13 21:59:44 darmou: that's not actually true. Feb 13 22:00:01 Go and look at the 'sim free' phones at the $350 price point. Feb 13 22:00:10 Every one has a camera (pretty much) and bluetooth. Feb 13 22:00:19 Wireless is not that common. Feb 13 22:00:28 a lot of the US is getting 3G, or EDGE(cdma based?) Feb 13 22:00:38 jannu: Ideally I don't like to care where I work. Mail, web, ssh, scm, file transfer, ... Feb 13 22:00:46 * darmou has visions of stickytaping a battery powered hub and usb wireless stick together Feb 13 22:00:49 Of course, $350 has not been said to be the definative final price. Feb 13 22:01:02 and wireless is even worse than 3g in terms of hardware price and power consumption Feb 13 22:01:03 jannu: I know even 3G is not very good for this, but it's a start. Feb 13 22:01:13 I was thinking about the new breed of phones such as the iphone or http://news.com.com/2300-1035_3-6158987-1.html or the prada Feb 13 22:01:14 Hmm. Feb 13 22:01:52 stefan_schmidt: if you use the 3g phone as a modem for a laptop, it's actually almost as good as wifi in my experience Feb 13 22:02:10 jannu: But I don't have wifi everywhere. Feb 13 22:02:37 jannu problem is price, if you are at home with own wireless network why pay exorbitant bandwidth prices Feb 13 22:03:04 jannu hence my stickytape idea lol Feb 13 22:03:04 darmou: You can get 3G flat in germany Feb 13 22:03:16 darmou: if you are at home with own wireless network why do anything high bandwidth with your phone? Feb 13 22:03:27 not in Australia it's very expensive here Feb 13 22:03:30 Smooth switching between wifi and 3G is also fine Feb 13 22:03:39 darmou: I mean, you have a computer as well, right? Feb 13 22:03:45 darmou: ok, that's a problem then Feb 13 22:04:03 jannu things like listening to internet radio stations ro VOIP is what I would be using it for Feb 13 22:04:28 Anyway, I will stay without 3G until v2. :) Feb 13 22:04:37 darmou: ok, yeah. those are pretty good use cases Feb 13 22:05:14 darmou: and will both cost an arm and a leg if you can't get a flat rate data contract Feb 13 22:06:30 the only point of edge is internet radio and the only point of 3g is voip Feb 13 22:06:38 jannu I did hear that 3g hutchinson was going to be offering a VOIP service so if they did that depending on cost that would be one app fixed Feb 13 22:07:54 I think there was some info that the reason why no wireless was because of drivers is that right? Feb 13 22:08:27 I thought there were some opensource drivers for wireless but perhaps not the right kind? shrug Feb 13 22:09:07 darmou: probably not for chips that are small enough... Feb 13 22:36:01 pavelm: ppp works stable now on the sx1? Feb 13 22:36:20 * stefan_schmidt considers to add a sx1 to his linux phone collection Feb 13 22:39:07 what's an sx1? Feb 13 22:40:06 pjz_: Siemens SX1 phone. Normally runs symbian, but now even runs linux. Feb 13 22:40:19 pjz_: Hardware is old but cheap. Feb 13 22:40:37 interesting. Feb 13 22:40:59 I've got a moto A780 and am eagerly awaiting you guys getting full functionality out of it =) Feb 13 22:41:14 Not sure if the hardware is capable for a fat openmoko framework. Perhaps openmoko-light. Feb 13 22:41:30 pjz_: heh, we are working on it. Feb 13 22:41:58 is the only way to reflash it still the stupid windows-only reflasher? Feb 13 22:42:14 pjz_: Next steps are reliable at stuff (sms, voice) and openmoko port afterwards. Feb 13 22:42:15 * pjz_ hasn't looked at the progress lately Feb 13 22:42:32 pjz_: You can use ezxflash. Feb 13 22:42:46 if I can reload the A780 without booting windoze then I can help play betatester at least Feb 13 22:43:14 * stefan_schmidt needs to fix mtd support in 2.6 to get easier possiblility for new kernel flashing Feb 13 22:43:27 what's broken with it? Feb 13 22:44:11 pjz_: chip gets recognized but not fully working. I don't have the message at hand. Feb 13 22:44:17 I'm in the middle of putting a new ubuntu load on this box so I can set up an openmoko dev environment - maybe I should set up an openezx one too Feb 13 22:44:39 pjz_: Thanks, once we have something useful for beta test I make a call on the ml Feb 13 22:45:21 pjz_: Only if you like kernel dev. We hope to use openmoko for all userland stuff. Feb 13 22:45:46 pjz_: Ideally openezx would only care about system level. Feb 13 22:47:30 yeah, I've done some minor kernel dev in the past (on the Agenda VR3, if you know what that is) Feb 13 22:48:00 hmm, never heard. Feb 13 22:48:17 and yeah, I like the idea of making openmoko work on openezx Feb 13 22:48:47 it was a linux based PDA about, uh... 5 yrs ago? something like that. Feb 13 22:49:04 Only problem can be limited hardware. 48MB ram is not that much. We shall see. Feb 13 22:50:31 yah - maybe why it will only run 1 java app at a time right now =) Feb 13 22:51:01 ah, Agenda VR3 was a linux pda Feb 13 22:51:19 yah Feb 13 22:51:48 talk about limited hardware - 8MB flash, no expansion slot Feb 13 22:52:11 ups Feb 13 22:52:15 oh, hey, does the Neo1973 have a stylus slot? Feb 13 22:52:18 No. Feb 13 22:52:23 No stylus or slot. Feb 13 22:52:28 innnnteresting Feb 13 22:52:38 Maybe version 2. Feb 13 22:52:42 Who knows. Feb 13 22:52:52 SpeedEvil: You're sure with no stylus? Feb 13 22:52:57 Yes. Feb 13 22:53:03 * stefan_schmidt tries to remember the case he has seen. Feb 13 22:53:04 huh, I hadn't realised that. Feb 13 22:53:09 one feature that was quite useful on the VR3 was a 'stylus present' switch in the stylus slot Feb 13 22:53:12 Well - nobody has mentioned the existance of one anywhere on the mailing list. Feb 13 22:53:31 And I've never seen mention elsewhere. Feb 13 22:53:42 Or piccys. Feb 13 22:53:48 hmm Feb 13 22:54:07 We see when the p0 phones are out Feb 13 22:54:12 hi mickeyl Feb 13 22:54:25 hey stefan_schmidtf Feb 13 22:54:26 That's one thing I'd like now, and I can't see any reason not to do it. A lot of pics, even without it working, for hardware fitting-on reasons. Feb 13 22:54:32 pjz_: What was the switch used for? Feb 13 22:54:37 stefan_schmidt: how's your openezx presentation progressing?` Feb 13 22:54:45 Turn off without it present, and it starts to cry. Feb 13 22:55:08 stefan_schmidt: hints to the phone on how to behave: if the stylus gets taken out, turn on the lcd. if it gets put back, go to sleep. Feb 13 22:55:27 mickeyl: Don't remember me. Have a test at staturday. Need to translate, add, review and upload it next week. Feb 13 22:56:24 * stefan_schmidt would love it to show a a780 with openmoko gui on it at the presentation. :) Feb 13 22:56:42 oh yah, is the openmoko source out yet? Feb 13 22:56:49 tomorrow Feb 13 22:56:56 lunch GMT+1 Feb 13 22:58:34 stefan_schmidt: if you want me to review, i'll take a look Feb 13 22:58:51 (after translation) Feb 13 22:58:51 :) Feb 13 22:59:06 mickeyl: Thanks, I came back to you. Feb 13 22:59:21 okik Feb 13 23:00:47 Has dev version of OpenMoko been released yet? Feb 13 23:00:53 * stefan_schmidt had a dream about Motorola sponsored openezx work. That's a signal I'm doing to much pc stuff. :) Feb 13 23:01:02 hehe Feb 13 23:01:15 pbryan: Next two days Feb 13 23:01:31 Thanks. Feb 13 23:01:43 But hey, anybody here knowing a Motorola manager? Feb 13 23:01:50 heh Feb 13 23:03:19 mickeyl: btw, we need a openmoko developer meeting on a rock in a snowboarder village. ;) Feb 13 23:03:43 I really need a snowbaord week this year. Feb 13 23:04:13 stefan: sorry for long pause. Watching interesting film :-) Feb 13 23:04:35 stefan: No, I was not able to get gprs working in stable way. Waiting for openmoko now :-) Feb 13 23:04:53 not yet Feb 13 23:05:08 stefan: it needs debugging multiplexor (probably), and multiplexor is non-standard, anyway :-( Feb 13 23:05:15 pavelm: You mean it would be useable on the SX1? Feb 13 23:05:19 * CoreDump|home says hi Feb 13 23:05:35 stefan_schmidt: i'll be in Skiwelt Amade right after FOSDEM Feb 13 23:05:37 :D Feb 13 23:05:49 come join us ;) Feb 13 23:06:23 pavelm: moto mux is even non standard. :( Feb 13 23:06:44 mickeyl: Oh, how much I would love doing this. :) Feb 13 23:07:29 ~lart less money in my pocket Feb 13 23:07:29 * apt_ crushes less money in my pocket with a full height scsi disk Feb 13 23:07:52 * mickeyl got the money in his pocket but is lacking time to spend it Feb 13 23:08:05 which is not that much better ;) Feb 13 23:08:05 Right, that also bad Feb 13 23:08:25 s/that/that is/ Feb 13 23:08:25 stefan_schmidt meant: Right, that is also bad Feb 13 23:08:44 well, if all turns out, i'll be working 3 to 4 hours a day for June and July Feb 13 23:08:54 that will be a hell of a summer Feb 13 23:08:54 * mickeyl can't wait Feb 13 23:09:01 sounds nice Feb 13 23:09:13 book or other project? Feb 13 23:09:23 the book. Feb 13 23:09:25 got a contract w/ opensourcepress Feb 13 23:09:28 :) Feb 13 23:09:30 stefan: parts of multiplexer would probably be usable, but sx1 seems to have some kind of weird power management stuff in it. Feb 13 23:09:32 congrats Feb 13 23:09:35 thanks Feb 13 23:09:44 it's like the best publisher for this kind of stuff Feb 13 23:09:59 They translate into english for you, right? Feb 13 23:10:14 stefan: Unfortunately... with 16MB ram and no touchscreen... sx1 is likely to be bad match for openmoko. Feb 13 23:10:15 stefan_schmidt: that's the plan yeah. I'll write the german issue and eventually they handle the translated issue Feb 13 23:10:33 pavel machek? Feb 13 23:10:37 stefan: At least upper layers of openmoko, anyway. Feb 13 23:10:43 mickey: Yep, hi1 Feb 13 23:10:48 pavelm: cheers. nice to find you in here :) Feb 13 23:10:53 (Hi! -- sorry, bad shift key). Feb 13 23:11:18 pavelm: right, parts of the moto mux are also useable. Smells like an addition to the ts07.10 line descipline Harald has written. Can't wait to take a look at the code. Feb 13 23:11:30 mickey: Nice to meet you, too. Found no openmoko in the morning mail, so I went to irc to find out what is going on. Feb 13 23:11:54 pavelm: hehe, yes. very sorry about the delay, but we're working as fast as we can Feb 13 23:12:12 pavelm: phase 0 phone? Feb 13 23:12:16 stefan: Yes; it is 07.10 with some extensions, so harald's code will definitely be useful. Feb 13 23:12:27 pavelm: same here Feb 13 23:12:29 stefan: I hoped for one ;-). Feb 13 23:12:54 I hear the discussion of "no stylus"... Feb 13 23:12:58 pavelm: The Moto E2 has 48 ram and also no touchscreen. Feb 13 23:13:13 ...how is text entry supposed to work without one? Feb 13 23:13:18 ? there is a stylus. Feb 13 23:13:23 stefan: E2 looks like nice toy. Feb 13 23:13:37 pavelm: We need a version for non touchscreen phones on a long term anyway Feb 13 23:13:38 mickey: Aha, so I misunderstood. So it was only "no switch that stylus is present"? Feb 13 23:13:49 likely :) Feb 13 23:13:59 stefan: Yes, I guess so. Feb 13 23:14:02 the Neo comes with a fancy stylus. there is just no slot in the phone for it to rest :/ Feb 13 23:14:11 pavelm: Yeap, E2 is pretty neat. At least for you touchscreen hater. ;) Feb 13 23:14:24 stefan: 16MB may be barely enough to run X after some stripping down, so... Feb 13 23:14:37 mickey: Really? Stylus but no place to hide it? Feb 13 23:14:51 mickey: That's showstopper, no? Feb 13 23:14:59 heh Feb 13 23:15:03 no showstopper Feb 13 23:15:06 but a misdesign Feb 13 23:15:07 yes Feb 13 23:15:25 * mickeyl adds to the list of things v2 will fix Feb 13 23:15:47 mickeyl: The whole case is a, hmm, not that good design. :) Feb 13 23:15:48 stefan: I have machines with touchscreen, I'm not _hating_ them pers se. But.. I like my phone small, and with tactile feedback. Feb 13 23:15:59 make sure reordering a stylus is not that expensive, many people will lose it and be annoyed if its too expensive Feb 13 23:16:00 at least for v1 Feb 13 23:16:17 stefan_schmidt: some love it, some hate it... Feb 13 23:16:19 mickey: v2 is the first version that is going to be sold "for real"? Feb 13 23:16:29 pavelm: no, that's v1/phase 2 Feb 13 23:16:39 v2 is the thing that comes after Neo1973 Feb 13 23:16:47 completely new hardware Feb 13 23:16:47 I like touchscreens a lot, I just wish Motorola's EZX was more finger-friendly. Feb 13 23:17:11 xfallen: I've seen pen with stylus selectable. If you have no slot for stylus, anyway, you can just use your pen that way. Feb 13 23:17:23 ...or I can use my zaurus to store stylus, I guess. Feb 13 23:17:43 The entire point of a smartphone is so you can leave your PDA at home :P Feb 13 23:18:00 mickey: Neo1973 is same hardware that is supposed to run windows, no? Feb 13 23:18:04 pavelm: I think both input methods have their group of lover on cellphones. Keys are faster, but ts is more flexible imho Feb 13 23:18:19 mickey: I think that windows users _will_ need place to store their stylus. Feb 13 23:18:37 Keys aren't faster if the interface is smart enough. Feb 13 23:19:06 pavelm: that was the initial plan, but it was put on hold Feb 13 23:19:09 stefan: touchscreen is nice from programmers point of view; it is not very different from mouse at least. Feb 13 23:19:11 It makes a lot of sense in screens where you have to select stuff from larger lists, like the address book. Feb 13 23:19:16 mickey: Aha, ok. Feb 13 23:19:47 stefan: But try using touchscreen while sitting on the horse -- preferably moving horse. Feb 13 23:19:51 a big problem with lists and fingers, or vibrating users is hard. Feb 13 23:19:58 stefan: All touchscreen designs I know needed two hands to operate. Feb 13 23:20:09 mickeyl: it should have a 'presence' switch too, I'm sure you have some spare gpio pins =) Feb 13 23:20:10 pavelm: Indeed Feb 13 23:20:19 Well it shouldn't be _too_ small, of course. Feb 13 23:20:20 pjz_: ;) Feb 13 23:20:43 * pjz_ runs his a780 with one hand Feb 13 23:20:47 mickey: I hope "no windows version" does not mean "price is going up through the roof" :-) Feb 13 23:20:49 and I have to flip it oven even Feb 13 23:20:52 open even Feb 13 23:21:04 * SuN can do a lot of stuff on his E680i with one hand as well Feb 13 23:21:19 But Motorola sabotaged a lot of things regarding finger use. Feb 13 23:21:20 pjz_: i was thinking of a presence clickwheel earlier Feb 13 23:21:42 sun/pjz: but doing that properly would mean designing interface in quite strange way, no/ Feb 13 23:21:55 pjz_: with 4 or 5 colour coded, configurable positions Feb 13 23:21:55 Not strange, just.. appropriate. Feb 13 23:22:01 ...like all active areas big and in the bottom part of the phone so they can be reached with finger holding the phone. Feb 13 23:22:03 pavelm: no. Feb 13 23:22:12 it just means internal reallocation of resources Feb 13 23:22:24 nothing to really worry about Feb 13 23:22:48 Active areas should indeed be large enough... but I can easily operate my E680 with my thumb in the places where Motorola intended me to. Feb 13 23:24:01 mickey: Good... and good luck with the commercial side. Feb 13 23:24:11 The menus are about half a cm high and 2.5cm wide, that's sufficient for me. Feb 13 23:24:21 sun: okay, I only had a1200 for a short while. Feb 13 23:24:27 there's also the added benefit that making clickable areas larger for thumb input means that you can show more information in each button Feb 13 23:25:00 sun: compared to nokia 6230, it was pretty much unusable. Bad joystick also played some part... Feb 13 23:25:08 which (properly designed) can make the interface a lot more intuitive Feb 13 23:25:34 jannu: It also means that interface ends up very different from standard PC interface. Feb 13 23:25:46 jannu: And at that point you can design Feb 13 23:25:49 I'm not sure how much the A1200 firmware differs from the E680i, but I find it very useful on some occasions, but not so much in others. Feb 13 23:25:56 pavelm: which, in a mobile phone is a good thing Feb 13 23:25:57 jannu: ...for 0-9*# interface as well :-) Feb 13 23:26:15 jannu: It means a lot of porting work :-(. Feb 13 23:26:45 The A1200 seems a bit awkward to hold, especially when operating the touchscreen, but I've never touched one so I could be wrong. Feb 13 23:27:01 jannu: no, I just meant a switch inside the stylus channel that can tell when there's a stylus there Feb 13 23:27:25 sun: it looked acceptably small to me. It is actually a _nice_ phone. Unfortunately it is not too easy to operate. Feb 13 23:27:37 pavelm: imho anyone even considering porting desktop applications to phone without redesigning the ui should be hanged Feb 13 23:27:37 sun: (Or maybe I was too used to "normal" cell phones with keyboards. Feb 13 23:27:46 BTW... what does "unpowered USB" mean? Feb 13 23:27:49 ok, time to sleep. night guys. Feb 13 23:28:04 USB host, but can not provide any power? Feb 13 23:28:08 Non-powered, so only useful for stuff that doesn't require power, such as mice, etc. Feb 13 23:28:09 stefan: Good night! Feb 13 23:28:10 pavelm: yeah Feb 13 23:28:21 SuN: err - no. Feb 13 23:28:25 _totally_ without power. Feb 13 23:28:28 Doh Feb 13 23:28:30 sun: sorry, even mice require power. Feb 13 23:28:30 no plugging your 2.5" drive into the openmokko! Feb 13 23:28:32 Will not run anything at all. Feb 13 23:28:40 Without an external power supply. Feb 13 23:28:48 speed: So if you plug powered hub, you actually get useful configuration? Feb 13 23:28:48 That's... rather... unuseful :) Feb 13 23:28:56 self-powered devices.. Feb 13 23:29:15 Ok, so at least it has _some_ kind of usb master. Good. Feb 13 23:29:19 pavelm: no. Feb 13 23:29:23 pjz_: ah, ok. I was thinking of a hardware switch for choosing between states like available, do-not-disturb, silent and airplane/offline mode Feb 13 23:29:26 Not without a powered cable. Feb 13 23:29:30 At least with some hubs. Feb 13 23:29:42 They won't talk to the host device unless it supplies power. Feb 13 23:29:47 Belkin tetrahub. Feb 13 23:29:52 However. Feb 13 23:29:59 What the hell, look at this: http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270088778100 Feb 13 23:30:00 This is trivial to fix with a simple cable mod. Feb 13 23:30:17 jannu: oh, nah, don't dedicate hardware to something like that; that's clearly a software thing - though a clickwheel/trackball on the thumb side might be kind of cool Feb 13 23:30:21 speed: Ok... if 5V is everything that is needed, then life is good. Even my hw hacking skills should be enough. Feb 13 23:31:22 pjz_: yep. a hardware switch might be a bit overkill Feb 13 23:31:39 5V and it works. Feb 13 23:31:50 (I've got an unpowered PCMCIA USB card) Feb 13 23:31:52 jannu: Actually hardware switch is quite nice. Especially if it is _switch_, and is hardware, as in "physically disconnects speaker". Feb 13 23:32:12 jannu: That way, software can't get it wrong, and ring when it was told not to :-). Feb 13 23:32:23 jannu: But I understand it is quite unsuitable for this kind of device. Feb 13 23:32:25 I'm not sure I ever want that. Feb 13 23:32:31 pjz_: especially since with a touchscreen you can just put a button to the spot where the current profile is shown Feb 13 23:32:33 (physicallt disconnect speaker) Feb 13 23:32:43 If it rings when it should not, it's a serious bug. Feb 13 23:32:53 pavelm: that kind of hardware switch might be a tad too limited Feb 13 23:33:23 And I want it to be able to ring if it's set to silent, and someone I know phones and says it's an emergency to the challenge. Feb 13 23:33:42 pavelm: because you might not want to get ringtones from phonecalls, but would like to get audible alarms from calendar events Feb 13 23:34:17 That too. Feb 13 23:34:21 If the software is sufficient, a hardware switch doesn't sound too important to me. Feb 13 23:34:39 speed/jannu: well, physically disconnecting speaker is still nice when I want to sleep, but yes, it is probably not suitable for this kind of device. For notebook, it is very nice. Feb 13 23:34:55 Hardware on/off for the radio unit would make sense for aircraft modes though. Feb 13 23:35:23 sun: It is not nearly as critical as not producing any sound :-) Feb 13 23:35:31 pavelm: if you can't trust your software to keep the speakers silent, the software is crap and needs to be fixed Feb 13 23:35:43 Will the aGPS unit be able to run without the "assisted" part? Feb 13 23:35:48 the ring/vibrate physical switch on my Treo650 is the best thing about the device. Feb 13 23:35:49 But providing you select the right profile, it's just as silent. Feb 13 23:35:50 pavelm, yes Feb 13 23:36:08 phone rings in a meeting - reach into your pocket, and mute it without even looking at it, Feb 13 23:36:12 rwhitby: well, that's because it's generally a pretty unimpressive device, I guess ;) Feb 13 23:36:32 heh, no it's just the importance I place on a hardware mute switch. Feb 13 23:36:32 jannu: Yes, unfortunately, I'm a developer; that means that software I work on is crap by default. Feb 13 23:36:38 the more I think about it, the more I think a mini trackball/button on the thumb side would be useful for scrolling around and such Feb 13 23:36:44 Map softkey to profile selection -> same thing. Feb 13 23:36:54 pavelm: amen to that Feb 13 23:37:15 pjz: hardware switch has aditionaly feature: you can look at its position, without it eating place on the screen. Feb 13 23:37:17 pjz: Yes, it is minor. Feb 13 23:37:20 I see so many people with Motorola V3 turn off their phone in a meeting, and the phone actually makes a stupid tune as it's turning off, completely defeating their attempt to be unobtrusive. Feb 13 23:37:24 pjz_: the problem is, which side is thumb side Feb 13 23:37:43 I hate that, my Samsung did that too. Feb 13 23:37:46 jannu: treo650 has it on the top :-) Feb 13 23:37:47 jannu: enh, put one on each side = Feb 13 23:37:50 jannu: =) Feb 13 23:38:14 mjr: Good, thanks. Is there chance for GPS to work while in pocket? Some GPSes can do that with limited accuracy... Feb 13 23:38:17 rwhitby: yes, i know. i was thinking the top for the profile selection thing as well Feb 13 23:38:35 rwhitby: but a scrollwheel thing is better on the side Feb 13 23:38:42 pavelm: quite good. Feb 13 23:38:48 SuN: actually, the Treo650 is quite an impressive device. ssh, irc, imap (including IDLE support), Bluetooth AP access for free networking, ... Feb 13 23:38:50 My Garmin GPS12 can mostly do that. Feb 13 23:39:03 pavelm, since it works indoors, I'd guess so, but not sure Feb 13 23:39:16 (Sean reported getting unassisted fix indoors) Feb 13 23:39:16 And it's sticker sensitivity is a factor of 10 or so down on the neo. Feb 13 23:39:38 speed: my fortuna can do that, if I leave it under the sky first to catch some sattelites. Feb 13 23:39:43 I suspect the answer is, mostly works outdoors. Feb 13 23:39:46 pjz_: so any thoughts on what the other scrollwheel could be programmed to do Feb 13 23:39:51 Mostly doesn't work indoors (in pocket) Feb 13 23:40:03 speed: You mean neo has better sensitivity then dedicated GPS? Nice. Feb 13 23:40:10 pjz_: earlier i was thinking that having two buttons on each side would be pretty nice Feb 13 23:40:13 It is a very old dedicated GPS. Feb 13 23:40:23 The processor is actually a 386EX16 Feb 13 23:40:39 I like to have physical buttons for volume for when I'm calling. Feb 13 23:40:50 pjz_: the ones on your thumb side could be used for volume up/down and scrolling, and the ones on the other side for play/pause and next song Feb 13 23:40:50 Some people talk too loud, some talk not loud enough, Feb 13 23:40:50 Ear-screen is a problem. Feb 13 23:40:59 However. Feb 13 23:41:02 With software. Feb 13 23:41:11 You can listen to the ambience. Feb 13 23:41:15 Does the neo have a hardware lock button? Feb 13 23:41:18 And trim the volume up or down depending on that. Feb 13 23:41:36 SuN: hardware lock? Feb 13 23:41:46 There are two buttons. Feb 13 23:41:53 Their functionality has not been confirmed. Feb 13 23:41:55 Ehm.. a physical button/switch to lock the input. Feb 13 23:42:12 I guess they can be mapped to do whatever. Feb 13 23:42:12 mickeyl: pixmap tester on openmoko-devel :) Feb 13 23:42:18 ~counter Feb 13 23:42:21 I'd imagine one is hardware dedicated to 'on'. Feb 13 23:42:22 SpeedEvil: the problem is that ambience isn't the only variable Feb 13 23:42:23 SuN: oh, hrm. IMHO that should be timeout/gesture initiated and then gesture disabled Feb 13 23:42:28 jannu: true. Feb 13 23:42:36 SpeedEvil: some people are just loud by design Feb 13 23:42:36 It gives a hint though. Feb 13 23:42:46 mickeyl: guess you rpobably dont have time to run it with and without the integer pixmaps patch? Feb 13 23:42:56 And if you listen to the callers volume, you can trim it according to the ambience. Feb 13 23:43:02 Timeout will work on my nerves, gestures might make sense. Feb 13 23:43:03 SpeedEvil: yep. ambience is one variable, loudness of the other person is another Feb 13 23:43:09 Depending on the complexity of the gesture. Feb 13 23:43:13 and you need both Feb 13 23:43:17 With volume being a complex factor that's probably more than simply amplitude. Feb 13 23:43:24 keithp: dude, nice to see you in here :) Feb 13 23:43:40 High squeaky voices may want lower volume than low ones. Feb 13 23:43:44 OTOH. Feb 13 23:43:52 You could put per-caller pitch bending in. Feb 13 23:43:54 How about an equalizer? :) Feb 13 23:44:00 Hello, Keith. Feb 13 23:44:05 So you never have to hear high pitched annoying voices ever again. Feb 13 23:44:06 hey all Feb 13 23:44:30 speed: Actually button that makes me sound like a mickey-mouse to the other side would be quite fun feature. Feb 13 23:44:52 HMM! On-board voice scrambling like in the movies. Feb 13 23:44:59 speed: Actually shifting voice up or down should be _very_ easy with gsm modulation. Feb 13 23:45:02 I want to play a game! Feb 13 23:45:11 SpeedEvil: well, if you program the ambience and caller loudness tracking codes to more or less follow the response of human hearing in different frequencies, it should do it Feb 13 23:45:17 Yeah. Feb 13 23:45:19 * mickeyl bows to the X master and says hello to keithp Feb 13 23:45:25 speed: And you could do fun stuff like "make the other side appear to whisper", etc. Feb 13 23:45:28 well, we don't get direct access to the gsm codec Feb 13 23:45:34 No. Feb 13 23:45:39 Which is annoying. Feb 13 23:45:50 It's not horribly hard to do cheap and nasty pitch bending though. Feb 13 23:46:01 one might be able to route the audio (via the audio chip) through the SoC; anybody know if that's possible? Feb 13 23:46:05 You don't even need to do FFT stuff for the quality that's going over GSM. Feb 13 23:46:09 robtaylor: yeah, at least not now. would you be able to do that for me? Feb 13 23:46:21 mickeyl: if i had an neo, sure.. Feb 13 23:46:21 mjr: why would you want to do that? Feb 13 23:46:31 It's been confirmed that the SoC can talk on the phone without the user doing it. Feb 13 23:46:32 robtaylor: heh. run it on anything arm :) Feb 13 23:46:37 mickeyl: i can try it on 770 or N800 Feb 13 23:46:39 mjr: you can, but I like to know why :) Feb 13 23:46:45 mickeyl, for the effects those guys are talking about :] Feb 13 23:46:48 robtaylor: that'd be much appreciated! Feb 13 23:46:51 mjr: right Feb 13 23:46:54 Vocoders, scrambled voices, etc. Feb 13 23:46:58 mickeyl: i expect widly varying results dependsing on EABI or OABI Feb 13 23:46:59 mjr: Yes, I guess direct access to gsm is not feasible. But we should be able to reroute the audio parts to the main cpu for call recording / audio processing, no? Feb 13 23:46:59 mjr: it's possible, however it may introduce a lot of latency Feb 13 23:47:04 I haven't seen anything saying that the SoC can essentially do 2A/D and 2D/A at the same time. Feb 13 23:47:16 mickeyl: unfortunatly both my nokias are EABI right now Feb 13 23:47:37 robtaylor: that's no problem. it should be accurate enough to see whether it makes a difference or not Feb 13 23:47:40 mickeyl, righto. How about what SE here mentioned; for both directions at once feasible? Feb 13 23:47:41 it'd be kind of cute to teach my neo to be its own voicemail box and also to pick up my voicemail for me and record it itself Feb 13 23:47:54 not that _I_ have any uses for that currently in mind.. Feb 13 23:47:57 pjz_: IIRC, that's been confirmed as possible. Feb 13 23:47:57 just curious Feb 13 23:48:17 mjr: that requires extra hardware. It depends on the design. It may be there 'free' and be used. Feb 13 23:48:44 pjz_: luckily that should be quite simple to do Feb 13 23:48:46 It may be that the GSM module takes a I2C stream or something not actual audio. Feb 13 23:48:55 no no no Feb 13 23:48:57 mickeyl: yeah, EABI should be much faster for float ops anyhow, so if it shows up there, it'll defeinitly show up on OABI Feb 13 23:48:57 audio Feb 13 23:48:58 In which case it's probably possible. Feb 13 23:49:04 It takes analog audio? Feb 13 23:49:06 yes Feb 13 23:49:08 pjz_: assuming that the audio can be captured before it hits the speaker Feb 13 23:49:09 Sigh. Feb 13 23:49:18 robtaylor: righto Feb 13 23:49:22 * mjr would like it if the gsm module could just be exchanged digital audio with via an uart, but one can't have everything, I suppose Feb 13 23:49:49 mjr: that would have made the GSM module much more expensive Feb 13 23:49:54 righto Feb 13 23:49:59 pjz_: prefetching voicemails from the server can be done with simple gsm calls Feb 13 23:50:14 mickeyl: not inherently. the GSM module has to have a codec in there anyway. Feb 13 23:50:16 pjz: siemens sl45 could actually do that. Feb 13 23:50:18 pjz: useful at meetings. You pick up the phone (and listen), but you can't actually talk. Feb 13 23:50:18 pjz: So you let the phone say "Sorry I can't talk now I'm on the meating" by pressing 0. Feb 13 23:50:18 pjz: And you can have "Yes" and "No" mapped to other keys.... Feb 13 23:50:27 pjz_: with call waiting to detect a possible incoming real call Feb 13 23:50:42 Putting the codec outside the GSM module might actually make it cheaper. Feb 13 23:50:43 SpeedEvil: i'm pretty sure that it would be more expensive. not necessary because of the technical reason, of course.... Feb 13 23:50:46 (in large volumes) Feb 13 23:51:37 SpeedEvil, I was thinking that the GSM part would still do the (de)coding, but whichever... but yeah, if it's practically more expensive to get that functionality, I don't mind not having it Feb 13 23:52:15 for me, voice calls are a secondary use of a phone anyway... Feb 13 23:52:32 * mickeyl waves to LaF0rge Feb 13 23:52:35 hi mickey Feb 13 23:53:00 LaF0rge, the guy who gave us hope of QVGA fullscreen :] Feb 13 23:53:16 hehe Feb 13 23:53:32 combine that with XorA|gone who already played qvga video (without sound) Feb 13 23:53:32 speed: I'd guess that routing gsm calls through main cpu will actually burn more power :( Feb 13 23:53:39 Probably. Feb 13 23:53:45 Certainly even. Feb 13 23:54:12 However, if it's got enough power for (say) 3 hours of talktime with vocoder on, that would be quite adequate. Feb 13 23:54:21 This could also be useful for hard of hearing. Feb 13 23:54:33 To bring voices into their most sensitive region. Feb 13 23:54:37 frequency Feb 13 23:55:20 speed: Yes, it probably has some uses. Feb 13 23:55:23 well, if we can intercept at least one direction of a live call via a/d-d/a, that's still doable Feb 13 23:55:57 Actually, what would be nice... have a real keyboard, and text-to-speech system, so that blind person can use the phone Feb 13 23:56:04 http://cgi.ebay.de/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=270088778100 woa it went for $2.247,00!! Feb 13 23:56:10 ...it is a bit more tricky with touchscreen, but probably doable, too. Feb 13 23:56:55 ...and it is nice not only for blind persons, but for controlling phone in car, while walking, etc... when you don't want to look at the screen. Feb 13 23:57:03 should be pretty easy to do with flite. Feb 13 23:57:16 Ga naar bed! Feb 13 23:58:50 mjr: I think it would be about half a day of work to get QVGA fullscreen working Feb 13 23:59:02 mjr: but given our current workload, this is really low prio Feb 13 23:59:15 mjr: but we have full-VGA in u-boot now, not only in kernel ;) Feb 13 23:59:56 laf0rge: You are patching openmoko to run on qvga screens so it can be ported to motorolas? Feb 13 23:59:57 mjr: we can sample both directions of the call, either mixed or separately Feb 14 00:00:08 mjr: I've already played mp3's via the GSM line to my landline phone Feb 14 00:00:19 mjr: alsamixer has 94 controls Feb 14 00:00:40 pavelm: this is a totally different issue which we'd like to see eventually Feb 14 00:00:49 LaF0rge, and put the SoC in between both directions of a call? Feb 14 00:00:59 pavelm: the problem with the motorolas will not be qvga, it'll be RAM Feb 14 00:01:03 mickey: So what is the deal with qvga? Feb 14 00:01:04 mjr: yes you can do that Feb 14 00:01:09 pavel: to playback video Feb 14 00:01:10 48MB is not enough? Feb 14 00:01:11 and yeah, I got from your mail that QVGA is low prio, but it's nice to know it's capable :) Feb 14 00:01:17 pavelm: our LCM can switch into qvga mode Feb 14 00:01:20 LaF0rge, oh goodie Feb 14 00:01:32 What's taking up the memory? X plus lots of graphics? Feb 14 00:01:34 pavel: we can switch the LCM hardware into QVGA, reconfigure the framebuffer driver and have 240x320 Feb 14 00:01:35 48MB is by no means enough to run X with our theme + apps Feb 14 00:01:43 Hmm Feb 14 00:02:00 mickey: Aha, and cpu is not fast enough for decoding video at VGA, so you reconfigure it to QVGA? Feb 14 00:02:04 at least not out of the box. sounds like an optimization job for a fistfull of people Feb 14 00:02:13 pavelm: that would be an option, yes. Feb 14 00:02:17 What kind of optimizations are we talking about? Feb 14 00:02:20 pavelm, that would be the idea, and could be useful for games and stuff too Feb 14 00:02:27 JUst scaling down the graphics? Feb 14 00:02:42 SuN: i'm afraid that's not enough. optimizing Xfbdev and Gtk+ Feb 14 00:02:45 to take less RAM Feb 14 00:02:51 Sounds nasty :/ Feb 14 00:02:52 48MB sounds like quite enough... not sure how big your apps are, of course. Feb 14 00:02:53 indeed Feb 14 00:03:07 LaF0rge: do you have top handy? Feb 14 00:03:07 I think I was using zaurus 5500 with 16MB by mistake. Feb 14 00:03:19 LaF0rge: can you see how many mb we're using in idle X mode? Feb 14 00:03:22 Wit Qtopia, ok. But running X? Feb 14 00:03:24 ..and it was unusually slow, but it worked ... with X+gpe. Feb 14 00:03:28 Hmm Feb 14 00:03:43 48mb is plenty Feb 14 00:03:47 heh Feb 14 00:03:50 if you think so Feb 14 00:03:57 on the gp2x, a similarly powered machine, xvid and divx all work perfectly at 320x240 Feb 14 00:04:00 Well, I guess we'll see. Feb 14 00:04:07 Ycros: i'll personally make you optimize Xfbdev and GTK+ if you're wrong :) Feb 14 00:04:14 ...and I guess I should get some sleep, so good night! Feb 14 00:04:21 sleep, yes, for me too Feb 14 00:04:22 The gp2x has 2 cpu's though, doesn't it? Feb 14 00:05:05 LaF0rge: so the neo can do voice effects in both directions at once? (pitch bending, changing volume, ... (with delay of course) Feb 14 00:05:20 SuN: yes - and some video accelleration IIRC Feb 14 00:05:38 g'night pavelm. cya Feb 14 00:06:03 * SpeedEvil waves to the sleepy people. Feb 14 00:06:13 mickey: top? on the neo? Feb 14 00:06:28 ya Feb 14 00:06:34 open openmoko-contacts Feb 14 00:06:38 and let's see how much ram we have left Feb 14 00:06:58 to have an idea of how much 48MB really is Feb 14 00:07:00 Mem: 52640K used, 74160K free, 0K shrd, 8K buff, 29704K cached Feb 14 00:07:06 bon appetit Feb 14 00:07:09 and that's _one_ app Feb 14 00:07:10 O.O Feb 14 00:07:20 and nearly no daemons running yet Feb 14 00:07:27 Quite hefty. Feb 14 00:07:37 LaF0rge: thanks Feb 14 00:07:50 gah Feb 14 00:07:53 How much of that is plain pixmap though? You can divide that by 4. Feb 14 00:08:00 * fluffs can hardly see... just stepped on my glasses Feb 14 00:08:15 laf0rge: no, it does not work like that. Boot with mem=48M or something Feb 14 00:08:20 laf0rge: linux will just use all memory that is available, as you currently see. Feb 14 00:08:30 * LaF0rge would like to see a 8bit proof-of-concept 'fork' ;) Feb 14 00:08:52 what is the whole 48mb thing about? Feb 14 00:08:55 pavelm: oh right, that's why there's still 75MB free :) Feb 14 00:08:55 * LaF0rge seems to have missed something Feb 14 00:08:58 LaF0rge: Motorola phones Feb 14 00:09:10 ah Feb 14 00:09:34 sun: linux is actually trying hard to fill it up, too. Do cat /bin/* > /dev/null to fill it up... Feb 14 00:09:53 * LaF0rge reboots with mem=48mb, will take some time ;) Feb 14 00:10:09 How fast is a reboot? Feb 14 00:10:19 (not 100% sure that arm supports mem= option) Feb 14 00:10:42 it should do Feb 14 00:10:51 * SpeedEvil tries to remember the name of the trivial 'allocate and mlock' app. Feb 14 00:13:12 pavel: no, doesn't seem to support it Feb 14 00:13:36 pavel: and I am not in the mood of patching u-boot to put a different value into ATAG_RAM either, sorry Feb 14 00:14:03 funny Feb 14 00:14:06 not supporting Feb 14 00:14:11 LaF0rge: have you seen the arm-kernel-shim program from Marc Singer? Feb 14 00:14:56 rwhitby: I havent' seen anythign bot openmoko bugzilla, openmoko svn, openmoko wiki for months Feb 14 00:14:57 LaF0rge: weird, arch/arm/kernel/setup.c should definelty parse mem= Feb 14 00:15:04 (it lets you compile a small shim which you prepend to your kernel and it overrides the ATAGs that the bootloader supplied (or didn't supply, in the case of the configurations that arm-kernel-shim was designed for) Feb 14 00:15:26 SpeedEvil: well, theres memlockd Feb 14 00:16:02 sorry guys, I'm almost completely burned out. Haven't found time for the hairdresser, tax declarations, gpl enforcement, social life or anything. So please don't ask me to do anything but the bare mimimal absoulte neccessarry. Feb 14 00:16:33 * mickeyl needs a haircut, too Feb 14 00:16:34 LaF0rge: sorry - not asking you to do anything, just providing information. but even that's probably too much at this point in time :-) Feb 14 00:16:57 yeah, didn't mean to engage you, just commented on the qvga thing and things got out of hand with the audio stuff ;) Feb 14 00:17:15 rwitby: Yes. unfortunately. sorry. I'm not even reading any non-openmoko related mails for weeks :( Feb 14 00:17:38 mickeyl, LaF0rge: Get some rest you two and take tomorrow off. It's on me :-) Feb 14 00:17:53 alphaone: we'd like to.... Feb 14 00:18:16 Might even raise overall productivity getting a short break Feb 14 00:18:41 due to my forthcoming ph.d. defense i even can only work half days on OM :/ Feb 14 00:18:54 and boy, those 12 hours are way too few ;) Feb 14 00:19:01 :-) Feb 14 00:19:45 And I don't mean to push you but if you want a shirt on FOSDEM I need the answer soon. Feb 14 00:20:32 okay, going to sleep now for real. Bye bye. Feb 14 00:23:08 I don't think I'll have time for fosdem Feb 14 00:23:49 Too bad :-( Feb 14 00:24:46 LaF0rge: booting with mem=48M works for me Feb 14 00:24:52 once there is a bit less Openmoko related work, I have ignored lots of other customers for quite some time, so I have to get back to other work at least a bit Feb 14 00:25:02 fluffs: doesn't work here for some reason. Feb 14 00:25:20 ruuning 2.6.20 her Feb 14 00:25:21 e Feb 14 00:25:56 fluffs: you know we don't have that :) Feb 14 00:26:20 hmm, come on linus, merge rmk's tree Feb 14 00:26:26 i've got a whole load more stuff to do Feb 14 00:27:13 http://www.linuxtogo.org/gowiki/OpenMoko/ideas/AudioAlteration Basically the audio alterations as discussed. Feb 14 00:27:20 LaF0rge: the sooner i'm let at the source, the sooner we can do something about that Feb 14 00:27:35 is there no official mokowiki yet? Feb 14 00:27:49 * fluffs can see again, lens back in frame Feb 14 00:27:56 fluffs: tomorrow Feb 14 00:28:02 paragon: tomorrow Feb 14 00:28:15 * LaF0rge is just waiting for something like three pargraphs of text from sean Feb 14 00:28:20 then we're all set Feb 14 00:28:45 :) Feb 14 00:28:45 winner Feb 14 00:28:46 * fluffs has to go see customer tommorow Feb 14 00:28:54 but gets to pickup an SMDK2443 as well Feb 14 00:32:11 sounds like fun Feb 14 00:32:14 * mjr lectured on eg. SELinux basics today, as well as coordinated a press release and blog posts on him getting sued yesterday for a civil disobedience campaign around circumvention talk/programs (decss and the like), plus arranged video and instructions for the editor of me and my friends' parliament campaign video Feb 14 00:33:50 on a more topical note, posted info on Sean's visit to Finland to interested parties Feb 14 00:34:08 hmm, what is with vendors... Feb 14 00:34:19 they send me a kernel as a complete tar.gz Feb 14 00:34:24 a patch would have done Feb 14 00:34:31 and i definetly didn't want their cvs directories Feb 14 00:54:17 fluffs: so what's your opinion to the cyrrus love letter? Feb 14 00:56:01 great. Feb 14 00:59:32 doh! i was stuck reading the backlog, refering to the missing ~three paragraphs :) Feb 14 00:59:51 btw, any reasonable reason given by cyrrus for the sudden change of heart? Feb 14 01:00:11 mickeyl: i'm all for putting them up against the wall when the next revolution comes Feb 14 01:00:19 fluffs: ACK Feb 14 01:00:20 or is the "love letter" all we know? Feb 14 01:01:56 * fluffs decides that since he has to be going to work in 5hrs, it may be a good idea to stop proddign vendor patches with 50ft pole Feb 14 01:05:35 counter Feb 14 01:05:36 source: a day 10:21:20 (1.431 days); P0: 15.431; P1: 46.431; P2: 229.431 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (303) Feb 14 01:06:03 gn, sleepers. Feb 14 01:07:43 g'night Feb 14 02:31:33 hi Feb 14 02:31:48 Hello Feb 14 02:32:16 regarding to opengl on neo, I guess vincent opengl|es implementation should be a good starting point Feb 14 02:33:01 I might be interrested to port this piece of software for this phone Feb 14 02:34:22 hybrid implementation is far more optimized but lack the "open-source" feature ;) Feb 14 02:39:16 brb Feb 14 02:52:45 what's vincent opengl|es Feb 14 02:53:03 it's a source-forge project Feb 14 02:53:37 covering opengl|es 1.0/1.1 : ogl-es.sf.net Feb 14 02:53:57 currently only for windows ce :( beurk Feb 14 02:54:36 but I believe most of the work in the rendering pipeline could be used Feb 14 02:54:55 why not just use mesa Feb 14 02:55:02 it's heavy Feb 14 02:55:13 why using floating point ? Feb 14 02:55:38 with opengl|es, you send every raster operations in fixed point (15/16) Feb 14 02:55:45 counter Feb 14 02:55:45 source: a day 08:31:10 (1.355 days); P0: 15.355; P1: 46.355; P2: 229.355 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (304) Feb 14 02:56:19 and so the pipeline behind can be optimized to take advantage of integer computation Feb 14 02:56:36 I've been used to develop some stuff with this api Feb 14 02:57:15 quite good performances on a simple nokia S60, all in software rendering Feb 14 02:57:50 I got also an Axim x50v with PowerVR MBX chip ;) quite better but $$$ **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Feb 14 02:59:57 2007