**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Feb 21 02:59:57 2007 Feb 21 03:05:11 seen this yet? (didn't link in logs): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/20#20070220-hardware_problems Feb 21 03:19:17 aww. hw bugs aint funny. luckily it's still early. Feb 21 03:29:31 thanks aevin Feb 21 03:37:47 I don't get it, where is your gsm protocol stack? I was wondering if I could contribute to it, but I cannot find it. Or is it in the kernel? Feb 21 03:38:12 claudio_: IIRC it is in h/w Feb 21 03:43:01 dottedmag: I see. Nothing to do for me then. Feb 21 03:43:42 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#GSM.2FGPRS Feb 21 03:46:20 tx aloril. Feb 21 03:48:27 so...any devs in here? Feb 21 03:54:32 For those having trouble building openmoko-dates: The repository has been re-organised and you need to edit the openmoko-dates_svn.bb file Feb 21 03:54:52 Does X work on the device in the latest images yet? Feb 21 03:55:18 The SRC_URI needs the '/private' removed and the module changed to openmoko. Feb 21 03:55:58 And the S setting need omoko changed to openmoko Feb 21 03:56:38 so this device works by speaking 07.* to /dev/ttySAC0 ? Feb 21 03:59:18 abstrakraft: you had some questions? Feb 21 03:59:52 (not openmoko team developer) Feb 21 04:10:18 just came across the project today, building the host environment, wondering what needs doing Feb 21 05:32:33 hmm Feb 21 05:32:39 morning Feb 21 05:32:42 morn Feb 21 05:32:50 oopss :) Feb 21 06:04:41 Hyvää huomenta ;) Feb 21 06:06:52 morning Feb 21 06:06:54 Hi Good morning to all Feb 21 06:07:43 can anyone of you help me in knowing the advantage or difference between dbus and dbus-glib? Feb 21 06:09:00 Anyone there? Feb 21 06:09:10 sureshkumar: I'd say dbus-glib is the glib bindings to dbus Feb 21 06:09:46 There's dbus bindings in many lanuguages Feb 21 07:55:34 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r10 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (openmoko-dates.patch series): Added openmoko-dates svn repo patch Feb 21 08:01:20 morning Feb 21 08:06:06 GTA01Bv4 will be created.. Feb 21 08:06:21 is that good or bad Feb 21 08:08:44 good, since that's supposed to the the p1 phone :) Feb 21 08:17:17 well in that case "has been created" would be better even ;) Feb 21 09:03:03 mornin Feb 21 09:23:00 hello Feb 21 09:23:18 counter Feb 21 09:23:18 P0: a week, a day 02:02:47 (2.085 - 8.085 days); P1: 24.085 - 39.085; P2: 192.085 - 222.085 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (375) Feb 21 09:24:24 aloril: according to recent LaF0rge blog post there can be next delay Feb 21 09:26:08 hrw, link ? Feb 21 09:26:40 http://planet.openmoko.org/ Feb 21 09:27:33 or http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/02/20/#20070220-hardware_problems Feb 21 09:29:52 hmm, that's not very nice... Feb 21 09:30:14 Maybe its just me but do you think most OpenMoko users will want to config their device a bit? Feb 21 09:30:43 Elixir-: that's an obvious question... Feb 21 09:30:56 I'm curious because all the preliminary docs I've read seem to be fairly ... monolithic in their design. Not a lot of talk about modular design Feb 21 09:31:51 Elixir-: the default theme is monolithic, tho' it's still GTK/matchbox, which is compleetly modular/configurable Feb 21 09:32:01 damn it .. valgrind doesnt support mips Feb 21 09:32:16 hrm ok just curious Feb 21 09:32:21 thx Feb 21 09:32:27 opps wrong channel , soory Feb 21 09:33:02 I can't imagine myself using an openmoko phone with anything default =P Feb 21 09:34:18 Elixir-: think of it as any other linux distro... it's distributed with a default theme that fits the projects' theme Feb 21 09:34:41 I hope they make it easier than most distros to strip down =P Feb 21 09:35:56 phase1 looks pretty bare to me Feb 21 09:36:05 I'm guessing that the official base install is pretty bare, yes Feb 21 09:36:39 There's only 64mb after all. :) Feb 21 09:37:19 thats actually more than many smartphones have Feb 21 09:38:11 buz: windowsmobile 5.0 req 128mb flash Feb 21 09:38:27 i wouldnt call winmob smart Feb 21 09:38:34 Hehehe Feb 21 09:39:30 How slow is uSD? Feb 21 09:39:44 microSD flash I mean Feb 21 09:45:46 Elixir-: The kingston ones I've seen has 8.8/6.5 MB/s r/w Feb 21 09:45:57 good morning Feb 21 09:45:59 Heh, a bit too many / there to be clear.. Feb 21 09:46:31 There's 10/8 mb/s too. Don't know what the card reader on the neo has Feb 21 09:51:44 * LuitvD wonders how many percent of each day has to be GPRS-enabled to get to 1GB/month Feb 21 09:52:43 reporting to you live from the openmoko seminar at Tampere, Finland; starting in 4 minutes Feb 21 09:53:25 mjr: preparing to bribe sean? Feb 21 09:53:38 lol Feb 21 09:53:48 LuitvD: 8kB/s is about average gprs speed Feb 21 09:54:11 koen: thanks ... let's see how much traffic / day is possible on 1GB Feb 21 09:54:23 a lot :) Feb 21 09:54:27 lol Feb 21 09:54:51 mjr: and I'm stuck in Helsinki. damn Feb 21 09:54:56 apt: 1024*1024/8 Feb 21 09:55:01 :P Feb 21 09:55:06 131072 Feb 21 09:55:22 apt: 131072/3600 Feb 21 09:55:25 36.408888888889 Feb 21 09:55:30 koen, wonder how much his phone would cost, being just a development model and _used_ and all... Feb 21 09:55:48 so 1GB is 36.4h of 8KB/s transfer? Feb 21 09:55:54 That's only 1h 12 min per day.. Feb 21 09:56:13 * LuitvD got to 2% of eacht day Feb 21 09:56:32 1048576 kb/day Feb 21 09:56:35 eh Feb 21 09:56:36 month Feb 21 09:56:57 about 35000kb/day Feb 21 09:57:31 kB, sorry :P Feb 21 09:58:38 35MB/day... Feb 21 09:59:52 somebody should write a widget/applet to montior the GPRS-traffic and show the traffic today + traffic this month Feb 21 10:00:49 LuitvD: and cost of it Feb 21 10:01:25 yeah... well.... not if you've got a 1GB/month traffic limit for a fixed cost... Feb 21 10:01:40 hrw: and block traffic when it exceeds a certain limit Feb 21 10:01:56 and warn at 80% of that limit Feb 21 10:01:57 I'd say warn when you don't have much left Feb 21 10:02:06 Heh, you're quicker Feb 21 10:02:09 lol :) Feb 21 10:02:20 warn + stop is my fav... Feb 21 10:02:23 not just warn... Feb 21 10:03:04 hmm, should be some ingenious way to calculate the quotum... Feb 21 10:03:34 because you can't always know on what day the quotum will be cleared... Feb 21 10:03:45 LuitvD: How does those monthly 1gb deals work? Is it 30 days, or the actual month? Feb 21 10:04:01 CM: I have no idea :P ask koen Feb 21 10:04:21 he's the one who told me of that plan :) Feb 21 10:04:27 I guess they count from one bill to the next Feb 21 10:04:36 bill-to-bill Feb 21 10:05:22 koen: okay :) so the exact quotum days are shown on the bills... Feb 21 10:05:44 koen: did you ever reach that limit? Feb 21 10:06:12 I think I got as high as 120MB Feb 21 10:06:25 XD Feb 21 10:09:31 whoops :) Feb 21 10:10:13 I wonder what gprs costs here.. Have to check Feb 21 10:10:46 CM: where is here? Feb 21 10:10:52 Sweden Feb 21 10:11:12 My company is paying my bills, so I don't know what it costs Feb 21 10:11:18 lol Feb 21 10:12:28 * koen is loving the search button in every moko app Feb 21 10:15:11 Seems to be between 0.70 and 1.50 EUR/MB.. Less the more you use Feb 21 10:15:21 Glad I never see that bill.. Feb 21 10:16:04 :P Feb 21 10:16:10 ~4EUR/mb in ch Feb 21 10:16:23 or 2GB for 30EUR each month Feb 21 10:16:32 0,7eur/MB isn't that expensive... Feb 21 10:17:09 id love a 100mb for 10EUR deal Feb 21 10:17:13 2GB of GPRS traffic each month? Feb 21 10:17:20 lol Feb 21 10:17:20 LuitvD: yes Feb 21 10:17:27 (which they then call "unlimited") Feb 21 10:17:29 that won't really happen... Feb 21 10:17:32 actually it's gprs or UMTS Feb 21 10:17:44 i.e. mobile communication Feb 21 10:17:49 yeah... Feb 21 10:17:57 i think you can also use it for hotspots, not sure though Feb 21 10:18:11 *whistle* flat rate 10 eur/month (and yeah, umts too, but only up to 128k with that deal) Feb 21 10:18:30 :| Feb 21 10:18:31 I'd love to have umts included in that deal Feb 21 10:18:38 except I have no umts phone Feb 21 10:19:10 yeah I don't either, and apparently my next one isn't umts either ;) Feb 21 10:19:10 and most umts phones seem to be designed by people that think fridge sized phones are 'c00l' and '1337' Feb 21 10:19:47 what can the iPhone do ? 3G? Feb 21 10:19:57 or is that one 2,5G too? Feb 21 10:20:23 the iphone can't do shit without paying $$$$$$ to unlock features Feb 21 10:20:35 yeah, i know Feb 21 10:21:03 and you're stuck to a way too expensive plan anyways... with that phone Feb 21 10:21:05 iphone is actually gsm/gprs too Feb 21 10:21:15 dunno if that does edge (sometimes called 2.75g) Feb 21 10:21:47 mjr: edge is mostly called 2,75... not just sometimes :P Feb 21 11:58:41 hello there... is there an emulator? Feb 21 11:58:50 (sorry, couldn't resist) Feb 21 12:02:07 ~seen emulator Feb 21 12:02:26 anyone ever seen one of the e21 linux phones in the wild? Feb 21 12:02:30 hrw: i haven't seen 'emulator' Feb 21 12:02:32 that http://www.digital-living-magazin.de/index.php?pid=17&art=2050&dispimg=1&img=6 lucks tasty Feb 21 12:02:37 * Stephmw gives Koffa a swift kick up the backside Feb 21 12:03:18 Stephmw :( Feb 21 12:03:54 http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2881_spec.htm yum, only qvga but otherwise perfect Feb 21 12:09:09 lol, that thing has one fourth of the nuber of pixels on the same size of screen Feb 21 12:10:45 qvga is pretty much standard for smartphones Feb 21 12:10:57 so far, i think universal is the only widely shipped vga phon Feb 21 12:11:06 and universal barely qualifies as phone anyhow Feb 21 12:11:20 12.5mm thickness? Feb 21 12:11:22 yum Feb 21 12:11:27 I'm not really sure if VGA is much better than QVGA on 2.8" anyway. Feb 21 12:11:48 SpeedEvil: it might be if it allows to run some desktop apps mostly unmodified Feb 21 12:11:51 other than, i doubt it Feb 21 12:11:56 SpeedEvil: sure it is Feb 21 12:12:10 YEMV. Feb 21 12:12:12 scalability :) Feb 21 12:12:23 (eyes) Feb 21 12:12:31 SpeedEvil: glasses ;) Feb 21 12:12:35 reading glasses Feb 21 12:13:06 Well - yes - but if it's combined with holding the phone at 20cm... Feb 21 12:13:29 qvga screen will still have what 150dpi? Feb 21 12:13:50 thats still 50% than most desktop screens have Feb 21 12:13:51 yeah. Feb 21 12:14:27 Koffa, starting off with a bang, I see Feb 21 12:14:35 had to make an entrance... Feb 21 12:14:53 (Koffa is sitting here with me at the Tampere seminar) Feb 21 12:15:04 * buz is drooling about that e28 phone Feb 21 12:17:37 can someone port the qvga screens into vga? Feb 21 12:17:44 s/can/can't/ Feb 21 12:17:44 koen meant: can't someone port the qvga screens into vga? Feb 21 12:18:49 thats one thing i've been wondering about Feb 21 12:19:00 are there any plans for a qvga openmoko version Feb 21 12:19:12 buz: there are Feb 21 12:19:14 buz: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=197 Feb 21 12:19:36 is that only a matter of theming? Feb 21 12:19:39 or rewriting half the widgets Feb 21 12:20:02 85% is theming Feb 21 12:20:17 maybe i'll try to get my hands on that qwerty thingy ;) Feb 21 12:20:20 the other 15% is small layout changes Feb 21 12:20:37 koen: we could always vnc on x to show another x with scale 50% :-D Feb 21 12:20:53 ~fishslap XorA Feb 21 12:21:01 * apt slaps XorA up side the head with a wet fish. Feb 21 12:21:36 virtual framebuffer than just scale down? Feb 21 12:21:37 XorA: qvfb under x11 with opie inside. then opie-rdesktop back to x11 Feb 21 12:21:40 what are the minimal ram requirements for moko? Feb 21 12:22:29 some qvga devices might need more ram to run moko, or mount swap on the flash... Feb 21 12:23:26 swap on flash? I prefer swap on tmpfs Feb 21 12:23:42 that's what i mean... Feb 21 12:23:56 just swap.. don't care where... Feb 21 12:24:11 but what amount of ram is needed to run without any ? Feb 21 12:24:19 swap on nfs->GPRS Feb 21 12:24:29 XorA: that would be best Feb 21 12:24:30 xora *g* Feb 21 12:24:39 swap on gmailfs? Feb 21 12:24:40 XorA: nbd over gprs :) Feb 21 12:24:41 XorA: lol Feb 21 12:24:42 we can rent swap servers to people Feb 21 12:24:50 that's bad Feb 21 12:24:53 ~3G should be enough :) Feb 21 12:25:02 XorA, come now, that's silly. swap on NBD over GPRS! Feb 21 12:25:13 mjr: I had to write it ;) Feb 21 12:25:34 * nbd over gprs :) Feb 21 12:25:42 oh damn, koen got there first Feb 21 12:26:25 nbd: can I ask openwrt question? Feb 21 12:26:30 sure Feb 21 12:26:49 nbd: why no jffs2 images for WR newer then rc5? Feb 21 12:27:27 it's been deprecated in favour of squashfs+jffs2+mini_fo Feb 21 12:28:05 same level of flexibility, better compression, better recovery if you screw up the filesystem Feb 21 12:28:07 nbd: I run rc5/jffs2 on wrt54gs and wanted to do it with newer ones Feb 21 12:28:44 i think this discussion should go in #openwrt instead Feb 21 12:28:57 swap on iscsi over gprs Feb 21 12:29:02 sure - just wanted to know reason. thx for answer Feb 21 12:29:32 swap on nfs on floppies over gprs Feb 21 12:29:43 hrw: sneaker net :-) Feb 21 12:30:46 On 'large 3G phones' - http://www.sonyericsson.com/spg.jsp?cc=us&lc=en&ver=4000&template=pip1&zone=pp&pid=10653# Feb 21 12:30:51 hrw: nfs on iram ... over gprs. Feb 21 12:32:26 I personally feel that there's no need for such instant retrieval of swap contents... Feb 21 12:32:34 swap over SMS is the answer Feb 21 12:32:53 :D Feb 21 12:33:17 I'd like to see the protocol specification for that :P Feb 21 12:34:13 well, I think people have been running IP over SMS already... Feb 21 12:34:26 there's an implementation around, aye Feb 21 12:34:30 apparently there were these "unlimited SMS" deals here a few years back Feb 21 12:34:57 nowadays they have limits :] Feb 21 12:37:01 'or any activity which impacts negatively on our network' - clauses tend to be common though. Feb 21 12:47:07 openmoko: 03thomas * r1069 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-contact-pane.c): Feb 21 12:47:07 openmoko: * src/contacts-contact-pane.c: Feb 21 12:47:07 openmoko: - Add support for handling multi-valued attributes. Feb 21 12:47:07 openmoko: - Prevent removal of a field if it is the last of its type in the editor. Feb 21 13:02:30 Odd. Tegic has a bogus UK patent number on their website. Feb 21 13:02:49 And the UK patent search engines can't seem to find any patents by them... Feb 21 13:02:52 not yet granted? Feb 21 13:03:01 or just a typo? Feb 21 13:03:37 try looking on esp@cenet Feb 21 13:03:44 all patents applied for should be listed. Feb 21 13:05:59 Ah. Feb 21 13:06:01 GB2238414A Feb 21 13:06:10 There was a B on the end. Feb 21 13:06:32 And for some reason - I can't see the full text on esp... Feb 21 13:06:40 (WRT T9) Feb 21 13:08:11 SpeedEvil: it's valid from 1989 Feb 21 13:08:46 Yeah. Feb 21 13:08:51 I was looking for the actual text. Feb 21 13:09:13 Doesn't really matter. Feb 21 13:09:13 weird... can't find my application on esp@cenet Feb 21 13:09:21 I think they just use shitty search technology Feb 21 13:09:27 (tm) Feb 21 13:10:01 SpeedEvil: esp@cenet does the 1-embedded-pdf-per-page malarkey Feb 21 13:10:07 SpeedEvil: but they do have the patents online Feb 21 13:10:24 It's not working for me, downloading files which then want passwords. Feb 21 13:10:26 SpeedEvil: it is on there Feb 21 13:10:28 Oh well. Feb 21 13:10:34 SpeedEvil: it's for chinese text I think? Feb 21 13:11:43 SpeedEvil: that's probably the problem - I've only ever had it work embedded Feb 21 13:11:50 SpeedEvil: never have been able to save the pdfs Feb 21 13:13:23 evince opens the espacenet pdfs fine IME Feb 21 13:13:34 * SpeedEvil using xpdf. Feb 21 13:13:42 I should probably try something else. Feb 21 13:13:43 try epdfview, much faster as evince Feb 21 13:13:59 http://trac.emma-soft.com/epdfview/ Feb 21 13:14:24 that reminds me... Feb 21 13:14:31 * koen should add some poppler patch to OE Feb 21 13:14:47 koen: yeah, make poppler even faster :-) Feb 21 13:14:56 qeustion : having prepaid cards , you do send a provider specific call like *100# and dial this ,, quickly you see a mesage on the phone display which tells you the money left. .. how is this implemented in AT .. cant find a reference ? Feb 21 13:15:11 I need to update my GTK - from 1.2 :) Feb 21 13:15:42 rob_w|mis: It's implementation dependant AIUI. Feb 21 13:15:47 It may not be possible. Feb 21 13:15:59 It's sometimes done in the phone software. Feb 21 13:16:13 AIUI Feb 21 13:16:14 Sometimes by a custom SMS Feb 21 13:16:14 hmm Feb 21 13:16:21 As I understand it. Feb 21 13:16:54 oh Feb 21 13:17:05 though aiui is yet antother at crap Feb 21 13:19:25 I'm basing this on the fact that it doesn't work often if you put another providers SIM in, so there must be several ways. Feb 21 13:21:15 i just test it on a crappy prepaid card and on my sonic ericsson it worked .. Feb 21 13:22:55 rob_w|mis: its simple: ATDT*100# Feb 21 13:23:15 rest is on operator side Feb 21 13:25:08 thats the easy part hrw , , but then ? Feb 21 13:25:52 then the operator send something magically back which displays a normal phone on its display .. i want to know how this works Feb 21 13:26:58 rob_w|mis: its an SMS with target phone and instant flag set Feb 21 13:27:27 i dont think prepaid balance checking is done in software Feb 21 13:27:40 i use a regular phone with mine and *121*# works just fine Feb 21 13:35:33 counter? Feb 21 13:35:33 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; a week 21:50:31 (1.910 - 7.910 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-02-28); a month, a week (23.910 - 38.910 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 7 months, a week (191.910 - 221.910 days) for mass market (2007-09-30): see topic for more info (376) Feb 21 13:35:43 looks very much like a flash sms or whatever they are called to me Feb 21 13:36:45 * LuitvD wants a laser beamer ^^ Feb 21 13:40:01 Did I read somewhere that a micro-sized HDD has been developed for cell phones? Feb 21 13:40:35 DukeOfURL: yep. but you need strong glasses to see them.. Feb 21 13:40:43 Heh Feb 21 13:40:59 1" hdd are available from some time Feb 21 13:41:14 its just a matter of connecting and fitting them Feb 21 13:41:27 Looking at the openmoko wish list, we're gonna need a lot of storage for all the apps we'll have :=) Feb 21 13:41:36 but I prefer few GB of flash rather then moving parts Feb 21 13:41:42 and now I have to go Feb 21 13:41:43 cu Feb 21 13:41:49 ok Feb 21 13:41:50 2G of flash isn't unreasonable. Feb 21 13:42:37 XorA, oh cool .. you know details Feb 21 13:42:39 I read where it really isn't 2GB. The vendors were claiming 2GB pre-compression, Feb 21 13:42:49 Err - no. Feb 21 13:42:59 There are actual 2G micro-SD out there. Feb 21 13:43:14 rob_w|mis: cant remeber exactly how its done, but there used to be a windoze app that could send that type of message to any phone Feb 21 13:43:25 Kinda like the "500GB" Samsung drives I brought last week. Linux is reporting 465GB. Feb 21 13:43:35 Err - no. Feb 21 13:43:45 great , so i need to figure out to delete that instant flag so it stores it Feb 21 13:43:49 That's different definitions of the megabyte. Feb 21 13:43:57 1024 v 1000? Feb 21 13:44:07 1024*1024*1024 vs 1000000000 Feb 21 13:44:29 Storage makers have been doing that for a long time. Feb 21 13:49:26 XorA, is it a cell broadcast ? Feb 21 13:51:27 rob_w|mis: I dont think so as vodofone in the OK use the cell messages to tell you what dialing code you are in Feb 21 13:53:49 OK? Feb 21 14:05:55 a gigabyte IS 1000000000 bytes Feb 21 14:06:10 1024^3 is a gibibyte Feb 21 14:15:20 meh Feb 21 14:15:31 its the difference between a metric and imperial gigabyte ;-) Feb 21 14:17:35 "imperial"? more "binary". Feb 21 14:17:37 :) Feb 21 14:22:06 openmoko: 03laforge * r1070 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-qt2410.patch: Feb 21 14:22:06 openmoko: * fix compilation due to missing last line in qt2410.c Feb 21 14:22:06 openmoko: * update config to become closer to what neo1973.h does these days Feb 21 14:22:44 openmoko: 03laforge * r1071 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-qt2410-resume.patch): Feb 21 14:22:44 openmoko: * add QT2410 port of fluffs' resume patch Feb 21 14:22:44 openmoko: This eventually needs to move into cpu/arm920/start.S Feb 21 14:29:17 hi Feb 21 14:29:51 PBeck: hi Feb 21 14:32:44 will there be Neos at cebit? Feb 21 14:35:34 openmoko: 03thomas * r1072 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/moko-alignment.c: Actually commit the changes for r1053 Feb 21 14:39:54 buz: when will CeBit 2007 be? Feb 21 14:40:21 wait, found it :P hannover, 15 march Feb 21 14:41:21 s/(\d+)\s(\w+)/\\0 \\1/ Feb 21 14:41:22 lol Feb 21 14:41:29 march, 15th Feb 21 14:41:37 till 21st Feb 21 14:45:56 hey aloril :D Feb 21 14:53:46 about week - 2 weeks before we hear p0 'reviews' Feb 21 14:55:27 counter Feb 21 14:55:27 P0: a week 20:30:37 (1.855 - 7.855 days); P1: 23.855 - 38.855; P2: 191.855 - 221.855 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (377) Feb 21 15:00:31 are the e28.com phones fic phones? Feb 21 15:01:36 lol e28.com is an unconfigured adress... Feb 21 15:01:42 www.e28.com is Feb 21 15:01:58 stupid webmasters/servermanagers Feb 21 15:02:14 how could people having control over those things be so stupid :S Feb 21 15:03:03 http://www.digital-living-magazin.de/index.php?pid=17&art=2050&cid=DLnewsletter Feb 21 15:03:21 i am still confused over the big photo there. It has subscript "neo1973" but it doesnt look like the neo at all Feb 21 15:03:29 lol Feb 21 15:03:32 its not the neo Feb 21 15:03:41 and e28 is not fic Feb 21 15:03:46 wish they were Feb 21 15:03:51 look belop the line that says "neo1973" ;) Feb 21 15:04:13 openmoko: 03thomas * r1073 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokoui/ (moko-search-bar.c moko-tree-view.c): * Fix some compiler warnings Feb 21 15:04:15 http://www.digital-living-magazin.de/index.php?pid=17&art=2050&dispimg=1&img=5 Feb 21 15:04:20 i'd so get the e2881 if it was an openmoko device Feb 21 15:04:22 that is a nice device though... Feb 21 15:04:28 wonder what it costs... Feb 21 15:05:09 (too bad it's only 1,8" QCIF+ Feb 21 15:05:13 i'm trying to figure that out) Feb 21 15:05:21 lol Feb 21 15:05:24 2881... Feb 21 15:05:32 that one is bulky... Feb 21 15:05:33 QCIF+ ? Feb 21 15:05:37 bulky? Feb 21 15:05:39 it's very smal Feb 21 15:05:42 is it? Feb 21 15:05:46 looks big on the pics Feb 21 15:05:48 110x50x13mm Feb 21 15:05:53 oeh :| Feb 21 15:05:55 much smaller than neo Feb 21 15:05:56 niiice Feb 21 15:05:59 very thing especially Feb 21 15:06:02 thin Feb 21 15:06:04 13 mm thick :| Feb 21 15:06:13 that's not much Feb 21 15:06:18 thats half the thickness of my p900 Feb 21 15:06:40 i sent a mail to the guy who said he sold e2800 asking if he could get the e2881 Feb 21 15:06:57 if that doesnt work out, i will ask some guys in hongkong to find it Feb 21 15:07:05 " Leider gibt es bisher keine Information dazu, ob, wann und wenn überhaupt zu welchem Preis diese beiden Geräte in Europa auf den Markt kommen. " Feb 21 15:07:22 who cares Feb 21 15:07:31 so not sure if, when, how pricey it;'ll hit the european market Feb 21 15:07:33 just because nobody sells them here doesnt mean we cant have them Feb 21 15:07:39 :) Feb 21 15:07:46 buz: i know Feb 21 15:07:49 it's a nice device... Feb 21 15:08:10 yes Feb 21 15:08:11 wonder what the quality of the default linux distro is... Feb 21 15:08:15 i wonder what about sources Feb 21 15:08:26 maybe harald needs to go bug them ;) Feb 21 15:08:27 :) Feb 21 15:08:57 and wifi, quadband, 2mpixel cam Feb 21 15:10:36 its perfect Feb 21 15:12:08 however, that omap 730 is single chip Feb 21 15:12:19 not sure if theres anything like open interface for that one Feb 21 15:15:50 and it has a Sirf star 3 Feb 21 15:15:52 :) Feb 21 15:16:05 and full size SD? :S Feb 21 15:16:24 micro i think Feb 21 15:16:45 "microSD/SD/MMC" Feb 21 15:16:48 so full size ... Feb 21 15:17:02 maybe microSD inside, and en external SD/MMC slot... Feb 21 15:17:03 oh nice Feb 21 15:17:04 would be nice :D Feb 21 15:17:13 probably no sdhc Feb 21 15:17:15 both micro and full size would be awesome Feb 21 15:17:23 yeah Feb 21 15:17:34 err... isn't SDHC depending on software, not hardware? Feb 21 15:17:39 not sure Feb 21 15:17:43 it needs FAT32 sure Feb 21 15:17:49 but i think it also uses another protocol Feb 21 15:17:51 :P Feb 21 15:18:00 reads whole sectors instead of just bytes Feb 21 15:18:02 yes... standard SPI/I2C variant Feb 21 15:18:16 not sure what the omap really does itself Feb 21 15:18:19 the protocol can't have changed much... it's still SPI... Feb 21 15:18:23 and what is just driver related Feb 21 15:18:40 http://focus.ti.com/general/docs/wtbu/wtbuproductcontent.tsp?templateId=6123&navigationId=12003&contentId=4676 Feb 21 15:18:41 I think a new driver can fix a lot Feb 21 15:19:31 ARM926EJ-S V5 architecture up to 200 MHz (maximum frequency) Feb 21 15:19:33 arm926... two ticks higher then arm920? Feb 21 15:19:50 thought there was arm924 too... Feb 21 15:20:06 USB On-the-Go Feb 21 15:20:44 secondary lcd... Feb 21 15:20:56 LuitvD: arm926 is armv5, arm920 is armv4 Feb 21 15:21:04 ah, okay... Feb 21 15:21:04 so its faster probably Feb 21 15:21:18 maybe... maybe not... maybe just more efficient Feb 21 15:21:24 130nm Feb 21 15:21:32 i think the s3c2410 is 180nm Feb 21 15:21:45 ah, so at least more efficient.. Feb 21 15:21:49 DMA with 4 physical and 17 logical channels and a dedicated 2D graphics engine Feb 21 15:21:56 w000t Feb 21 15:22:00 yeeehaa Feb 21 15:22:13 so it has a 2D graphics accelerater Feb 21 15:22:16 this might just do those transparencies Feb 21 15:22:20 lol Feb 21 15:22:44 possibility of an EDGE co-processor... Feb 21 15:22:46 i wonder what the e2881 costs Feb 21 15:22:52 i just might pay 500USD for it Feb 21 15:23:18 lol, I won't Feb 21 15:23:20 not if it is not opensource friendly Feb 21 15:23:27 I've had it with phone hacking Feb 21 15:23:29 no more! Feb 21 15:23:31 there surprisingly large use of mobile in poor countries Feb 21 15:23:36 if it's 400 I might buy it, if openmoko runs on it Feb 21 15:23:47 hopefully price points of openmoko phones are competitive Feb 21 15:23:59 350usd is ok for neo Feb 21 15:24:08 but only because it got vga screen Feb 21 15:24:16 :) Feb 21 15:24:29 i meant htat e28 device Feb 21 15:24:29 how big is the screen on the e thingy Feb 21 15:24:47 2,8", just like the FIC, though with QVGA Feb 21 15:24:49 instead of VGA Feb 21 15:24:50 oh Feb 21 15:24:52 how much $ to start your own cel company :-) Feb 21 15:24:57 :D Feb 21 15:25:04 carrier or phone maker? Feb 21 15:25:10 phone maker ofcourse Feb 21 15:25:13 :P Feb 21 15:25:15 mhh Feb 21 15:25:17 carrier too Feb 21 15:25:19 :) Feb 21 15:25:30 well, 10mio usd might be start Feb 21 15:25:34 carrier for say just one urban region Feb 21 15:25:35 gtodd_: worldwide? Feb 21 15:25:41 oh Feb 21 15:25:42 lol Feb 21 15:25:46 with a few antennae towers etc Feb 21 15:25:53 you need spectrum Feb 21 15:25:53 In the early 90s, everyone in Hong Kong had a cell phone. The reason was the 10 year wait for a land line. Feb 21 15:25:55 which you wont get Feb 21 15:26:00 openmoko: 03thomas * r1074 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-main.c): * src/contacts-main.c: (main): Fix some compiler warnings Feb 21 15:26:18 voip peering/trunking to like minded little cel companies around the world Feb 21 15:26:28 which dont get spectrum either Feb 21 15:26:37 :) Feb 21 15:26:51 that market is basically carved up Feb 21 15:26:56 now wimax otoh Feb 21 15:27:09 ok so to have a really open infrastructure (along with the phone platform) wifi is needed :-D Feb 21 15:27:16 wimax I mean Feb 21 15:27:19 except here Feb 21 15:27:21 (Canada) Feb 21 15:27:33 wifi? Feb 21 15:27:33 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Feb 21 15:27:39 the big telcos/cel providers go to auctions and by wimax spectrum! Feb 21 15:27:40 lol Feb 21 15:27:46 ROTFL Feb 21 15:27:51 they buy it Feb 21 15:27:54 and sit on it Feb 21 15:27:59 wifi needs a LOT of cells Feb 21 15:28:10 only chance i see with wifi is what FON is doing Feb 21 15:28:25 or roll out wimax based services that cost more than their current offerings Feb 21 15:28:27 but i dont trust FON one bit Feb 21 15:28:34 lol Feb 21 15:28:37 gtodd_: sounds about right Feb 21 15:28:46 you could build 50dBi wifi antennae Feb 21 15:28:59 that'd have a nice reach... Feb 21 15:29:03 it should be illegal for them to spectrum squat Feb 21 15:29:06 * aloril notes that day or 2 ago some newbie was flamed for several lines when simple "faq?" would have sufficed to answer almost all questions Feb 21 15:29:41 yeah spectrum should come with an usage requirement Feb 21 15:29:45 but as someone said when asked why they get away with it .... "cause they have money" Feb 21 15:30:04 buz why no trust in FON? Feb 21 15:30:21 think they will become rapacious and costly? Feb 21 15:30:29 because i wont have some weird hacked up firmware in router Feb 21 15:30:32 yeah Feb 21 15:30:59 they are a lot like skype Feb 21 15:31:00 first thing that my friends who use FON is that they remove the backdoor Feb 21 15:31:07 and guess who invests in them :) Feb 21 15:31:23 if you dont do it then FON can reprogram and log in as root whenever they want Feb 21 15:31:35 yeah damnit! Feb 21 15:31:41 here is one idea about spectrum: you pay yearly fee about it, at the end of near cheapest provider one gets significant amount of fees back (if you provide for free, then you get all of it back) Feb 21 15:31:44 see thats why i wont use it Feb 21 15:31:58 aloril: that's what a sane person would manage it like Feb 21 15:32:04 unfortuantely, it's managed by bureaucrats Feb 21 15:32:19 oops :) Feb 21 15:32:23 could even give people who provide it for free back more than they paid Feb 21 15:32:27 taking from the rip offs Feb 21 15:32:50 is there a python version that'll run on openmoko? Feb 21 15:33:00 assuming they actually provided it and not few/single tower(s) ;-) Feb 21 15:33:08 would 64mb be ram enough for openmoko Feb 21 15:33:37 which I could run openmoko as a vmware image or something Feb 21 15:33:39 :) Feb 21 15:34:24 buz: my guess is yes Feb 21 15:34:32 http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2881_image.htm looking at the side it might use sd Feb 21 15:34:39 the slot could just about fit sd i think Feb 21 15:34:46 btw, both wifi and wimax have nosupport at the radio level for seamlessly moving between cells Feb 21 15:35:07 the only soultion is to have two radios Feb 21 15:35:21 i suspect that would suck for power consumption Feb 21 15:35:51 buz: it does, SD and MMC Feb 21 15:35:59 (and prob. SDIO too) Feb 21 15:36:04 WIFI handover has nasty 200ms or more lag Feb 21 15:36:19 dont think i would need SDIO in that hardware Feb 21 15:36:28 i mean what could you possibly add Feb 21 15:36:36 ok maybe spectecs vga thingy Feb 21 15:37:02 and frankly, i like the design much more than neos Feb 21 15:37:14 lol Feb 21 15:37:19 me too Feb 21 15:37:22 maybe its just me, but neo looks like playmobil toy Feb 21 15:37:35 tho' if it doesn't run moko, I'm not sure what to buy... Feb 21 15:37:48 you could always port moko to it ;) Feb 21 15:38:00 heck i might post a bounty for that ;) Feb 21 15:38:05 buz, how much for that e2881 mobile? Feb 21 15:38:14 if it's as expensive or even cheaper then the neo, I'll defenately import it Feb 21 15:38:15 dont know Feb 21 15:38:17 trying to figure out Feb 21 15:38:24 i doubt it will be cheaper Feb 21 15:38:44 LuitvD, the spec of that phone is much better then neo Feb 21 15:38:50 yeah Feb 21 15:38:55 rd_: aside the fact that is has only qvga Feb 21 15:38:58 apart from the screen, that is Feb 21 15:39:03 this is essentially a linux running tytn Feb 21 15:39:05 damn, beaten :P Feb 21 15:39:11 better even, tytn has no gps Feb 21 15:39:21 tytn? doesn the tytn have HVGA? Feb 21 15:39:24 :S Feb 21 15:39:29 tytn is qvga Feb 21 15:39:32 damn... Feb 21 15:39:41 this is probably 600USD or so Feb 21 15:39:43 :P Feb 21 15:40:17 ho hum Feb 21 15:40:26 i wonder how many youd have to buy to get a steep discount Feb 21 15:41:33 this is what v2 should look like ;) Feb 21 15:41:55 yeah, and what the v2 should be capable of... Feb 21 15:41:56 buz: with the exception of sliding keyboard Feb 21 15:42:10 mhh im indifferent to sliding or treo like Feb 21 15:42:13 sliding is easier to type Feb 21 15:42:18 but you cant use it onehanded Feb 21 15:42:32 sliding like the HTC wizard? Feb 21 15:42:55 yeah, I like this blackberry-style keyboard Feb 21 15:43:44 besides, this one doesnt even look too geeky Feb 21 15:44:21 and it's very thin Feb 21 15:44:24 very sexy Feb 21 15:44:33 thinness must be a new record Feb 21 15:44:56 for smartphones... Feb 21 15:45:06 well for do it ALL smartphones especially Feb 21 15:45:11 there's a 11mm motorola I guess... Feb 21 15:45:25 there are just very few gps/cam/wifi/qwerty smartphones Feb 21 15:45:37 samsung has 6.9mm phone i think Feb 21 15:45:44 thats not a smartphone Feb 21 15:45:53 gps/cam/wifi/qwerty/touchscreen/full-size-SD Feb 21 15:46:05 ray: yeah, that one is scary... Feb 21 15:46:14 they now have a 5.9mm one Feb 21 15:46:17 :P Feb 21 15:46:18 s/ray/raynet/ Feb 21 15:46:19 LuitvD meant: raynet: yeah, that one is scary... Feb 21 15:46:28 i think the only other device to do all of this is some weird toshiba winmobile thingy Feb 21 15:46:34 loox830 or some such Feb 21 15:46:39 buz: I think for v2 (or v3) FIC needs to have 2 different models: one for people that like a smallish, but powerfull phone, and one model with 4" vga, qwerty, etc Feb 21 15:46:51 4" is too big Feb 21 15:46:55 4"? :| Feb 21 15:47:02 waaay too big Feb 21 15:47:09 3,5" tops Feb 21 15:47:13 gimme qwerty on 3" wvga Feb 21 15:47:17 :P Feb 21 15:47:23 buz: slide qwerty? Feb 21 15:47:27 that'd be possible Feb 21 15:47:29 yes Feb 21 15:47:42 otherwise 2,8" vga and blackberry style Feb 21 15:47:48 but keep the touchscreen Feb 21 15:47:53 lol Feb 21 15:47:57 (main reason i didnt buy a nokia e61) Feb 21 15:48:07 wtf am i supposed to surf with joystick Feb 21 15:48:13 does the nokia n73 have touchscreen? Feb 21 15:48:34 a phone with 4" screen with couple mm borders would be great Feb 21 15:48:34 no nokia phones with TS Feb 21 15:48:48 with slide qwerty Feb 21 15:48:59 raynet: maybe if its widescreen Feb 21 15:49:07 4:3 is way to wide Feb 21 15:49:23 raynet: like the iphone, but a higher res, slide-out keyboard, open software :P Feb 21 15:49:24 buz: sure, something like 2:1 or even 3:1 Feb 21 15:49:25 a 21" internet table(t) :) Feb 21 15:49:40 lol, table :D Feb 21 15:49:42 good one Feb 21 15:49:42 i have a 12" tablet pc Feb 21 15:49:46 rather useless devices Feb 21 15:49:50 would be fun Feb 21 15:49:50 and so inconvenient Feb 21 15:49:56 tigert: a 21" tablet pc is more like a food tray :D Feb 21 15:50:03 35" would be a table Feb 21 15:50:04 i have actually seen something like this a few month ago Feb 21 15:50:18 a 17" touchscreen mounted in a coffeetable Feb 21 15:50:33 doesnt Dell hve that silly luggable laptop with 22" screen or something Feb 21 15:50:33 seemed pretty stupid to me Feb 21 15:50:36 lui: yea. many uses :) Feb 21 15:50:42 its like spaceinvaders all over again Feb 21 15:51:24 cintiq devices are nice :D Feb 21 15:51:43 that's actually 21,3" touchscreen Feb 21 15:51:44 a blackberry like device with extra slide-in display would be cool Feb 21 15:52:02 err. slide-in display? Feb 21 15:52:09 * LuitvD can't picture that... Feb 21 15:52:17 dual screen phone?!? Feb 21 15:52:23 yup Feb 21 15:52:30 sounds awkward to handle Feb 21 15:52:32 heh Feb 21 15:52:33 I like the motorola A780s approach - fake dual screens. Feb 21 15:52:33 pong table :) Feb 21 15:52:33 (t) Feb 21 15:52:42 where you see both screens at the same time.. with Nokia Communicators you need a mirror for that Feb 21 15:52:43 buz: there are already dual-screen phones... clamshell type... Feb 21 15:52:45 Using the real LCD to fake the backlight. Feb 21 15:52:47 err Feb 21 15:52:53 exteral scree. Feb 21 15:52:55 well i wouldnt call clamshell true dual head Feb 21 15:52:56 n Feb 21 15:53:07 buz: not all... Feb 21 15:53:11 If done right, with a low power LCD, it could work well. Feb 21 15:53:22 SpeedEvil: motorola a1200 does it better even Feb 21 15:53:34 if that one had wifi, i would have soooo bought it Feb 21 15:53:49 Yeah. Feb 21 15:53:53 I like the A1200. Feb 21 15:54:08 I'd like it more if you could actually develop native apps for it. Feb 21 15:54:16 easily the sleekest linux phone ever built Feb 21 15:54:50 I'd slightly debate the term 'linux'. Feb 21 15:55:02 'phone with a linux kernel' yes. Feb 21 15:55:03 well point Feb 21 15:55:09 motux maybe Feb 21 15:55:27 They've taken tux, and locked him behind bars. Feb 21 15:55:39 not bars... stakes... :P Feb 21 15:55:43 OMG GNU!!!!!ONE!!!ONEONE!! Feb 21 15:55:50 there, pre-emptive gnu-ing Feb 21 15:56:42 lol? SDHCi driver built-in in the 2.6.17 vanilla kernel? Feb 21 15:56:45 :D Feb 21 15:57:08 i wonder if we are ever gonna get a gnuphone Feb 21 15:57:15 buz: the e28 thing most likely does SDHC :D if you'd be able to hack it to openmoko Feb 21 15:57:29 schweet Feb 21 15:57:31 8GB sd Feb 21 15:57:34 muuuust have Feb 21 15:57:37 SDHC is just a driver Feb 21 15:57:49 yeah :) Feb 21 15:57:52 SDHC is present in 2.6.20 iirc Feb 21 15:57:56 take that, iphone Feb 21 15:58:02 koen: 2.6.17 Feb 21 15:58:17 no Feb 21 15:58:19 buz: why not a 32GB SD2.0? Feb 21 15:58:26 koen: no?\ Feb 21 15:58:39 because there arent any Feb 21 15:58:50 "The driver has been merged in the main kernel starting with 2.6.17-rc1." ... Feb 21 15:58:54 http://mmc.drzeus.cx/wiki/Linux/Drivers/sdhci Feb 21 15:58:55 http://intr.overt.org/blog/?p=42 Feb 21 15:59:15 sdhci != sdhc Feb 21 15:59:27 ... Feb 21 15:59:31 sdhci is the generic SD driver Feb 21 15:59:39 hell... it's only one character off... Feb 21 15:59:40 SD-HC is SD High Capacity Feb 21 15:59:58 ah, yeah, now i see... Feb 21 16:00:07 SD Host Controller Interface... Feb 21 16:00:16 my mistake Feb 21 16:00:27 * LuitvD will shut up now :) Feb 21 16:00:48 well, SDHC isn't in 2.6.20 as I said either :) Feb 21 16:01:26 shouldn't be hard to patch it into the neo 2.6.20.1 kernel Feb 21 16:01:39 hope so... Feb 21 16:03:29 that e2881 is sooooo unbelievably thin :D Feb 21 16:04:05 too bad the link to the user manual is broken... Feb 21 16:05:25 * SpeedEvil guesses that it doesn't contain an SDK anyway :) Feb 21 16:09:54 4" HD 720 (1280x720) ;-) Feb 21 16:13:27 * aloril wonders if RMS would accept Neo1973 with proprietary GPS library removed (or replaced with libre one) Feb 21 16:13:46 according to wikipedia he doesn't have cell phone at all Feb 21 16:14:16 aloril: I think it would catch fire in his hands Feb 21 16:15:05 It could be concealed in the beard. Feb 21 16:15:14 or on a flunkie Feb 21 16:15:25 aloril, were you in Tre, by the way? Feb 21 16:15:36 mjr: no Feb 21 16:15:53 mjr: sometimes rarely visit it Feb 21 16:16:28 yeah Feb 21 16:16:47 just wondering if there were some faces from this channel that I didn't connect Feb 21 16:17:04 mjr: how's the meetup coming along? Feb 21 16:18:07 oh we had to leave already back to Helsinki Feb 21 16:18:18 it was fun, typically finnish though, not very interactive Feb 21 16:18:46 I made some remarks and asked a bit trying to breathe life into it a bit, but my mind's been rather elsewhere recently too ;) Feb 21 16:19:01 we almost saw a neo boot Feb 21 16:19:09 but it didn't have enough power Feb 21 16:19:14 heh Feb 21 16:19:19 so all we really saw was the penguin boot logo and some text Feb 21 16:19:26 I keep hearing about discharged batteries Feb 21 16:19:42 Sean claimed that they'd succesfully made a phone call with it, though Feb 21 16:19:58 mjr: I have made a phone call on Neo Feb 21 16:20:46 :) Feb 21 16:20:52 With actual talking both sides? Feb 21 16:21:03 about RMS: "Owning a cell phone is giving into being monitored by mobile phone companies, he argues." (from http://www.redherring.com/Article.aspx?a=18757 ) Feb 21 16:21:03 SpeedEvil: yes, lrg one end, me the other Feb 21 16:21:33 koen: There is uboot stuff to ask about and change the charger state. Feb 21 16:22:47 aloril, well, that's true. But if it gives me internet access, so be it :] Feb 21 16:23:50 it sounds like even completely non proprietary cell phone is not OK for RMS, I guess one with wifi only (ie. no GSM) might be OK ;-) (but then that is probably better called PDA or mini laptop ;-) Feb 21 16:24:27 aloril: RMS only needs a phone to call the Lord of GNU Feb 21 16:24:31 oh wait, a "webpad" Feb 21 16:26:19 anyway, the live phone is surprisingly small even if I have seen the measurements Feb 21 16:26:38 not that light though, but that's of course because it's jam-packed with goodies! Feb 21 16:27:37 apparently they're going to put in a bigger microsd by default than I thought, but I shan't mention a size since I might've gotten it wrong Feb 21 16:28:10 32MB instead of 16MB :) Feb 21 16:29:45 anybody seen speed tests with various micro SD cards yet? Feb 21 16:30:01 * aloril is wondering if there would be any use for fast one Feb 21 16:30:24 mjr, 512 is what he said Feb 21 16:30:39 ok so he said it ;) Feb 21 16:30:58 * koen spots inz in #openmoko Feb 21 16:31:08 * inz hides Feb 21 16:31:22 inz: time for openmoko-hackers.org? Feb 21 16:31:48 koen, not quite yet, maybe later ;) Feb 21 16:31:54 :) Feb 21 16:39:45 has anyone found the price-tag on that e2881 yet? :P Feb 21 16:56:45 * SpeedEvil wonders when phones'll get so small that they are worth their weight in gols. Feb 21 16:57:00 :P Feb 21 16:57:24 s/gols/gold/ ? Feb 21 16:57:51 * inz wonders when phones get so small you need to have them always in a huge charger for not to lose them Feb 21 16:58:48 * LuitvD wonders when phones get so small and advanced, they can be linked to the human brain... Feb 21 16:59:45 * dottedmag hopes openmoko will survive. It's a shame to link phone with M$ crap inside to the brain. Feb 21 17:00:02 phones devaluate as fast as they shrink Feb 21 17:00:13 and openmoko can survive, even when neo fails Feb 21 17:00:24 dottedmag: I'll never again be brainwashed by M$ Feb 21 17:02:29 * LuitvD wonders when gAIM and Xchat will be available on openmoko Feb 21 17:09:51 LuitvD: both yes. xchat rather unusable on vga Feb 21 17:10:11 err... not really... Feb 21 17:10:13 * koen would like a telepathy/galago based IM client Feb 21 17:10:23 it's useless on qvga... but vga is doable Feb 21 17:11:13 with the size of openmoko's gtk theme, xchat will be unusable :P Feb 21 17:11:43 right Feb 21 17:12:27 telepathy? Feb 21 17:12:33 console-style? Feb 21 17:12:47 What about voice recognition? Feb 21 17:12:50 (don't know much IRC clients...) Feb 21 17:12:53 Is there enough power to do that? Feb 21 17:13:08 s/power/resources/ Feb 21 17:13:08 harleypig meant: Is there enough resources to do that? Feb 21 17:13:22 small-font text-based on 640x480 should be doable for IRC Feb 21 17:13:30 and voice synthesis? Feb 21 17:13:35 Similar phones have forms of voice recognition. Feb 21 17:13:37 No, voice recognition. Feb 21 17:13:38 Synthesis is easy. Feb 21 17:13:41 (answering machine in your cellphone, anyone?) Feb 21 17:13:50 lol Feb 21 17:13:56 yeah... possibly Feb 21 17:14:01 Answering machine in cellphone is a commonly thought of app. Feb 21 17:14:15 someone will make it, I guess Feb 21 17:14:23 telepathy: http://telepathy.freedesktop.org/wiki/ Feb 21 17:14:46 hopefully with a better config language than asterisk (say, full scripting language, like ruby or python) Feb 21 17:15:10 We really want to use whatever anything else does. Feb 21 17:15:17 64M flash and all that. Feb 21 17:19:41 counter Feb 21 17:19:42 P0: a week 18:06:22 (1.754 - 7.754 days); P1: 23.754 - 38.754; P2: 191.754 - 221.754 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (378) Feb 21 17:20:45 robtaylor: are you still working on telepathy? Feb 21 17:21:21 Hi People. Is there any way I can contribute to without the Neo1973 hardware? Feb 21 17:21:33 Is there a say "emulator" that I can use ? Feb 21 17:21:41 emulator, schemulator Feb 21 17:21:45 lol Feb 21 17:22:34 Yes - wander over the wiki. Feb 21 17:23:06 In some cases you don't even need an emulator at all - it's just an X box, with 480*640 screen. Feb 21 17:23:59 koen, at least now you can point 'em to qemu images and be done with it ;) Feb 21 17:25:00 qemu images available? ;-) Feb 21 17:25:22 jebba: heh Feb 21 17:25:40 jebba: "the display is the wrong way " Feb 21 17:25:45 tuxmaniac: http://ftp.blagblagblag.org/pub/blag/developers/jebba/openmoko/ Feb 21 17:25:51 jebba: "it's slow " Feb 21 17:26:05 ah, ya. koen here's why I have the display that way: http://wiki.openmoko.org/images/5/5d/Openmoko-jebba-devel.jpg Feb 21 17:26:09 jebba: "qemu doesn't work on my OMG 64bit pc " Feb 21 17:26:37 Is there anything that'll give me psuedo-accurate timings? Will QEMU? Feb 21 17:26:39 but i think i'll make default qemu images with no mods. Then it'll be "it's stuck at 'Align your pointer'" or whatever it is... ;) Feb 21 17:26:40 jebba: and you need qemy to display that? Feb 21 17:26:44 SpeedEvil: nope Feb 21 17:26:51 koen> heh.. You study at utwente.. ? LOL Feb 21 17:26:52 qemu /does/ work on 64bit pc. I use it on that too. Feb 21 17:26:54 Well - other than hardware :) Feb 21 17:27:18 SpeedEvil: there's a hilarious pressrelease somewhere where some debian dude says that qemu on a 4GH cpu outperforms his 133MHz arm device Feb 21 17:27:28 :) Feb 21 17:27:47 koen> err. How ? Feb 21 17:28:16 koen, no, it's not /needed/. But I would note that you bothered to put it on your ipaq too... By running it in qemu I finally got an idea of where things were at. I understand all of your arguments and agree, but it's still nice to be like "ok here's the picture"..... Feb 21 17:28:57 jebba: qemu nor Xoo work well on a mac Feb 21 17:29:17 well tough shit for mac users, i couldn't care less about that.... Feb 21 17:30:26 Hmm. I suppose, looking at it, it seems like the cheapest way to do MP3 will be to decode a several M buffer to RAM, go to slow mode and play till it nearly empties, repeat. Feb 21 17:31:25 jebba: the main reason is that I hate packaging, which OE does for me, so installing it on my ipaq way easy (ipkg install task-openmoko) Feb 21 17:33:20 anyway, it doesn't /hurt/ to have qemu images, i don't think, if only to answer the emulator question. ;) Feb 21 17:33:31 yeah Feb 21 17:33:53 but as Xora said: " XorA guesses that if your first question is "is there an emulator" then your not actually ever going to do dev work :-)" Feb 21 17:34:33 anyway there will be neo1973-qemu but not in month or two Feb 21 17:35:30 but doing dev work isn't the /only/ thing either... just kicking it around and getting excited has it's own merit... Feb 21 17:35:32 maybe after keel-hauling the hardware dudes Feb 21 17:36:18 jebba> true. Feb 21 17:36:55 jebba: "just kicking it around and getting excited" still doesn't need an emulator Feb 21 17:37:11 jebba: but I guess people are to used to proprietary crap requiring an emulator Feb 21 17:37:58 * jebba goes to poke it with a stick some more... ;) Feb 21 17:40:20 looks like there is another hardware problem with p0. Good news is that at least it seems fixable. Feb 21 17:40:45 noidd: isn't that old news? Feb 21 17:41:44 as posted on planet.openmoko.org? Feb 21 17:41:51 I guess i'm just behind in the loop Feb 21 17:49:16 unfortunately hardware bugs always happen Feb 21 17:50:00 yes. they are Feb 21 17:50:40 billstevenson? From the Descendents? :) Feb 21 17:50:43 phase0 devices will delay to march Feb 21 17:51:01 or even end of march Feb 21 17:54:12 what? Feb 21 17:55:23 is that just a guess or something more informed Feb 21 17:56:00 sth Feb 21 17:56:36 dooooh Feb 21 17:57:28 my p900 is slowly but surely dying Feb 21 17:57:44 how is it dying? Feb 21 17:58:00 buz: good h/w a bit later is better than bad h/w earlier, I think. Feb 21 17:58:11 sure Feb 21 17:58:11 especially if the bad h/w doesn't work Feb 21 17:58:20 natetrue: the touchscreen doesnt really react Feb 21 17:58:27 and ocassionally it gets sms only after reboots Feb 21 17:58:33 sad Feb 21 17:58:38 It's a pity you can't 'apt-get upgrade' buggy chips :) Feb 21 17:58:53 its nearly 3,5years old Feb 21 17:58:58 served me well Feb 21 17:59:09 they were working on self-updateable larger chips Feb 21 17:59:12 dottedmag: FPGA!! Feb 21 17:59:13 FPGA-like Feb 21 17:59:20 FPGA Feb 21 17:59:33 now they just need to add FPGA PCBs... Feb 21 17:59:34 but FPGA's are expensive and bulky, aren't they? Feb 21 17:59:43 just attach a wire to an FPGA and you have a gsm stack ;) Feb 21 17:59:46 and powerhungry Feb 21 17:59:52 ooh, powerhungry is not an option Feb 21 17:59:55 and all around stupid to put in a phone Feb 21 18:00:13 * buz glances at e2881 again Feb 21 18:01:44 does that thing gain an extra number every hour? Feb 21 18:01:59 a few hours ago it was 'e28' then 'e281' and now 'e2881' Feb 21 18:02:09 e28 is the manufacturer Feb 21 18:02:32 * hrw will buy e2888118918474 Feb 21 18:03:42 * koen will buy e2.71828183 Feb 21 18:05:29 hi philippe Feb 21 18:05:38 hi florian Feb 21 18:05:52 hi philippe Feb 21 18:06:00 hi everyone! Feb 21 18:06:08 hi hrw & others... Feb 21 18:06:16 seems to be busy here today :-) Feb 21 18:07:05 we're all forlorn about the P0 delays Feb 21 18:08:36 * philippe prefers delays instead of bad products Feb 21 18:09:38 counter Feb 21 18:09:38 P0: a week 17:16:26 (1.720 - 7.720 days); P1: 23.720 - 38.720; P2: 191.720 - 221.720 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (379) Feb 21 18:09:38 ? Feb 21 18:09:39 well, when you have to choose one, sure Feb 21 18:09:40 "doesn't happen overnight" to quote nokia Feb 21 18:09:56 but i wouldn't mind good products on schedule... Feb 21 18:10:04 esp since i have to wait for P1 Feb 21 18:10:05 not that i'm complaining Feb 21 18:10:13 i know that delays are simply unavoidable Feb 21 18:10:41 we could have had it last month, without bluetooth Feb 21 18:10:46 so I think the delay is worth it Feb 21 18:11:08 unfortunately the extension doesnt hold, waiting one more month to get wifi :( Feb 21 18:11:23 OMG WIFI!!!ONE!!!ONE!! Feb 21 18:11:33 gnaaaa Feb 21 18:11:37 I WANT IT 2!! Feb 21 18:11:51 but maybe waiting two months will get you that V8 Feb 21 18:11:56 802.11N ROXXX! Feb 21 18:12:03 etc crap Feb 21 18:12:11 OMG V8!!!!! Feb 21 18:12:11 natetrue: if this were a typical hardware project, it would have all the same delays; you just wouldn't be hearing about them. Feb 21 18:12:56 yup Feb 21 18:29:03 %query NickServer Feb 21 18:29:03 oops Feb 21 18:31:00 trunk/oe/conf/distro/openmoko.conf: DISTRO_NAME = "OpenMoKo" Shouldn't be "MoKo" (no upper K)... small, i know... ;) Feb 21 18:31:12 submit a patch! Feb 21 18:31:33 s/MoKo/Moko done. Feb 21 18:31:49 what does Moko stand for? Feb 21 18:32:01 loufoque: bad spelling Feb 21 18:32:15 mobile kommunicator Feb 21 18:32:23 MoKo Feb 21 18:32:32 - Feb 21 18:33:08 same for include/openmoko.inc Feb 21 18:34:00 jebba: that's Corporate Consistency at work :) Feb 21 18:35:13 OpenNo-no ;-) Feb 21 18:36:52 If you check out some of the kernel patches they still suffer from license text inaccuracies as pointed out on one of the MLs. I guess they've got their hands full already... Feb 21 18:44:31 SeedEvil: I think laforge mentioned support for USB-serial on u-boot: so need for JTAG should be quite rare Feb 21 18:45:15 serial and usb-dfu Feb 21 18:45:32 jtag would only be needed if you screw up uboot somehow Feb 21 18:45:38 which is pretty hard to do Feb 21 18:48:29 aloril2: it's on the u-boot page of wiki Feb 21 18:48:51 openmoko: 03mickey * r1075 10/trunk/oe/packages/sidplay-base/ (. sidplay-base_1.0.9.bb): Feb 21 18:48:51 openmoko: oe: add sidplay-base, a spartanic console player for SID music Feb 21 18:48:51 openmoko: Yes, it feels good emulating 20 year old hardware... Feb 21 18:48:51 openmoko: FYI: Playing SID consumes 10% processing power... Feb 21 18:50:24 :) Feb 21 18:50:55 SID? Feb 21 18:51:00 commodore 64 Feb 21 18:51:15 * xkr47 thinks he will put the ocean loader music as ringtone :DD Feb 21 18:51:22 or maybe commando :) Feb 21 18:51:30 acid_jazz Feb 21 18:51:35 Ah. Feb 21 18:51:48 xkr47: did you heard Commando played by Press Play On Tape band? Feb 21 18:51:55 no :) Feb 21 18:52:02 then try it Feb 21 18:52:34 youtube ? Feb 21 18:52:35 * SpeedEvil ponders spectrum 'FastLoad' 'ringtone'. Feb 21 18:52:42 :) Feb 21 18:52:54 xkr47: google: press play on tape Feb 21 18:53:04 thx Feb 21 18:53:21 1Khz(?) squarewave, phase reversing at .5 second intervals. Feb 21 18:53:30 i'd go for acid_jazz just for the opportunities to explain how timbaland stole it Feb 21 18:53:33 Very distinctive. Feb 21 18:54:28 lol http://www.tradebit.com/filedetail.php/1232720 Feb 21 18:56:17 http://www.c64audio.com/productInfo.php?cat=PG01 Feb 21 18:59:24 grab the High Voltage SID Collection to feed sidplay :) Feb 21 19:00:09 yeah I have it :) Feb 21 19:00:43 bbl Feb 21 19:01:28 koen: I guess this: u-boot is outside disk image so dd if=/dev/zero of=/dev/sda (or whatever it is) won't affect it, also you need to deliberately unprotect critical sectors in u-boot prompt and write to there: so it takes a bit knowledge to brick it Feb 21 19:02:37 * xkr47 wonders if the "disk" partition or what it was called is the "sda" drive Feb 21 19:03:26 i guess you won't screw up the stepping stone in the s3c2410 by accident either Feb 21 19:03:55 "accidental copypaste from wiki" Feb 21 19:07:55 aloril2: it's on a seperate parition Feb 21 19:08:11 /dev/mtdblock0 or something like that Feb 21 19:09:43 koen: You shouldn't use mtdblock. Feb 21 19:10:09 MTD devices aren't block devices. "mount -t jffs2 md0 /mnt" is the correct way to use the device. Feb 21 19:10:16 uh Feb 21 19:10:18 s/md0/mtd0/ Feb 21 19:10:53 (First entry of http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/archive/tech/faq.html .) Feb 21 19:11:34 cjb: and usually pda has each /dev/mtdX also available as /dev/mtdblockX Feb 21 19:12:08 hrw: No, I think you're confused -- /dev/mtd0 would be a character device, which isn't mountable. Feb 21 19:12:40 An MTD0 device is "mtd0", with no /dev in front. There are some devices that don't have entries in /dev, and an MTD device is one of them. Feb 21 19:12:49 cjb: want a list of /dev/mtd* from one of my devices on desk? Feb 21 19:12:59 koen@hx4700:~$ ls /dev/mtd* Feb 21 19:13:03 sigh, Feb 21 19:13:07 /dev/mtdblock0 /dev/mtdblock1 /dev/mtdblock2 /dev/mtdblock3 /dev/mtdblock4 Feb 21 19:13:17 /dev/mtd* are character devices. Try mounting one, it will fail. Feb 21 19:13:23 /dev/mtd* are character devices. Try mounting one, it will fail. Feb 21 19:13:39 /dev/mtdblock* are block devices. They are *emulations* of MTD devices. You should not use them. Feb 21 19:14:03 mtd*, with no leading /dev, are MTD devices. You can mount them with "mount mtd0 /mnt". This is how you should use an MTD. Feb 21 19:14:19 I don't know how to say it any more clearly, and the FAQ I linked to clearly says the same thing, so I'll stop here. Feb 21 19:14:51 actually it doesn't Feb 21 19:14:59 I'll stop too - have to start packing for fosdem rather Feb 21 19:15:03 "Yes, the latest nand driver code forces the protection of bad block information. It's safe to erase a NAND flash with erase(all) /dev/mtdX. It's recommended to use eraseall with -j or --jffs2 option set. This will write the cleanmarker to the out of band area. So you can mount the filesystem and no further formatting is needed. This formatting is also neccecary before you copy a fs-image to the chip. Feb 21 19:15:03 " Feb 21 19:15:28 koen: The character device is indeed used for erasing the device. Feb 21 19:15:41 Why don't you try mounting it? Feb 21 19:16:08 * aloril2 wonder if pasting short one line command to root user shell could brick Neo1973 (would be worse lart than rm -rf \ (command deliberately obscured in case some newbie tries it and deletes everything)) Feb 21 19:16:41 koen: If you've forgotten what a character device is: "Character devices were things like keyboards or mice, that you could read current data from, but couldn't be seeked and didn't have a size". Feb 21 19:17:52 well, mtdblock has been working for years and if what the mtd dudes recommended me at the time Feb 21 19:18:19 aloril2 - If one can write (erase) straight from the cmdline... then erasing the first block on the nand will brick the device. (unless you're fast to ntice and put a uboot back.) Feb 21 19:18:27 It works, it's just an emulation. It's certainly not recommended by the MTD maintainers, as that FAQ clearly states. Feb 21 19:18:37 "So mtd is neither a block nor a char device. There are translations to use them, as if they were. But those translations are nowhere near the original ..| Feb 21 19:19:27 the faq never mentions /dev/mtdblock Feb 21 19:19:28 Elrond: Yes, running a cmdline to erase the flash is trivial, as root. Feb 21 19:20:09 koen: What about the following phrase makes you think that they aren't talking about mtdblock? This is crazy. Feb 21 19:20:11 "Flash doesn't match the description of either block or character devices. They behave similar to block device, but have differences. For example, block devices don't destinguish between write and erase operations. Therefore, a special device type to match flash characteristics was created: mtd." Feb 21 19:20:43 right Feb 21 19:20:51 nothing about /dev/mtdblock Feb 21 19:20:56 ! Feb 21 19:21:03 ls -l /dev/mtdblock0 Feb 21 19:23:59 koen: It's a shame that you're unable to infer that "Block debives are inappropriate, so we created mtd0" means "/dev/mtdblock* was inappropriate, so we created mtd0*". You should consider e-mailing the FAQ maintainer to tell him that you find his FAQ unclear. Feb 21 19:25:13 you just said mtdblock was not a block device, but emulation Feb 21 19:25:17 * LuitvD wants to steal ballmers voice or something... http://news.zdnet.com/2100-3513_22-6160604.html Feb 21 19:29:42 koen: I did not say that. Quoting from the FAQ, I said that an MTD is not a block device. It isn't. It is possible to make a block device emulate an MTD, which you shouldn't do, but which you do do when you use /dev/mtdblock0. Feb 21 19:30:57 Were do i get one of these phones? Feb 21 19:31:13 nowhere as of yet Feb 21 19:31:40 cjb: right Feb 21 19:31:49 What about for testing developing etc Feb 21 19:32:05 cjb: but the faq doesn't say if /dev/mtdblock shares the disadvantages of regular block devices Feb 21 19:32:19 poppo, yes, that's what I meant Feb 21 19:32:21 counter Feb 21 19:32:22 P0: a week 15:53:41 (1.662 - 7.662 days); P1: 23.662 - 38.662; P2: 191.662 - 221.662 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (380) Feb 21 19:32:32 cjb: and to make it worse, it never mentions /dev/mtdblockX nor mtdX Feb 21 19:32:40 mjr: So its not working yet Feb 21 19:33:19 actually, that's not the implication, though apparently there _have_ been some problems Feb 21 19:33:21 poppo: "All interested developers can purchase Neos starting late March. " Feb 21 19:33:27 poppo: from http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-February/000003.html Feb 21 19:33:39 koen: Okay. I agree that the FAQ could go into more detail. I can assure that its intent is to tell you that you should "mount mtd0 /mnt" and *not* "mount /dev/mtdblock0 /mnt". Feb 21 19:33:49 "Finally, we will offer Neos to end users sometime in September of this Feb 21 19:33:49 year." Feb 21 19:34:00 that should probably be in the topic :) Feb 21 19:34:22 cjb: I read it as "block devices are bad mmmmkay, mtd devices aren't block devices" Feb 21 19:34:28 which I already knew Feb 21 19:34:53 koen: You're reading it wrong, I'm afraid. Feb 21 19:35:00 I know that now Feb 21 19:35:09 but only after trying to mount mtd3 Feb 21 19:35:13 not by googling Feb 21 19:35:18 Okay. I understand.. Feb 21 19:36:13 cjb: I initially tried 'mount -t jffs2 mtd0 /mtn/temp' Feb 21 19:36:18 which didn't work Feb 21 19:36:26 koen: How come? Feb 21 19:36:26 since that was the bootloader :) Feb 21 19:36:31 Ah. :) Feb 21 19:36:47 mtd3 worked (/home partition) Feb 21 19:37:16 reminds me of my annoyance with linux: everything is a file, except network devices Feb 21 19:37:24 * koen adds mtd 'devices' to the list Feb 21 19:37:40 right :) Feb 21 19:38:13 * koen is tempted to install plan9 to get those Feb 21 19:38:30 mtd actually has optional char & block device access support Feb 21 19:38:56 rd_: right, hence the confusion Feb 21 19:39:09 you can enable/disable it when you compileyour kernel iirc Feb 21 19:39:24 Looks like a good product umm have to get me one of these Feb 21 19:39:34 Integrate with sip Feb 21 19:39:36 would be awesome Feb 21 19:46:49 cjb: http://lists.linuxtogo.org/pipermail/openembedded-devel/2007-February/001490.html Feb 21 19:47:51 koen: Sorry, I'm on a conf call/only have ssh right now. I'll look at your URL later. Feb 21 19:48:06 koen, i tho mtdblock would be used for erase purpose only Feb 21 19:48:21 rd_: no, that's the char device. :) /dev/mtd*. Feb 21 19:48:59 cjb, those mtdblock are faster for erasing :) Feb 21 19:49:14 Oh! With dd, right? That makes sense. Feb 21 19:49:27 I usually use `flash_eraseall -j /dev/mtd0`. Feb 21 19:49:44 I'm not sure dd to the block device would write the bad block table after formatting? Feb 21 19:49:46 cjb: the subject is "[oe] RFC: stop mounting /dev/mtdblockX but mount mtdX (without /dev) instead" Feb 21 19:49:53 Which sounds a little dangerous, but maybe isn't. Feb 21 19:50:03 koen: Ah, thanks. I'll keep an eye on the thread. Feb 21 19:50:03 and starts with "Chris Ball from the OLPC project was kind (and patient) enough to explain the first item of http://www.linux-mtd.infradead.org/archive/tech/faq.html to me." Feb 21 19:50:09 :D Feb 21 19:50:52 koen, go to the menuconfig in your kernel src and read the help page for mtdchar & mtdblock Feb 21 19:51:12 there are explaination inside that Feb 21 19:52:41 koen: ;-) Feb 21 19:53:14 cjb, OLPC is nice :p Feb 21 20:01:52 cjb: sounds like you can brick-lart clueless newbie trough irc Feb 21 20:03:16 aloril2: nah, hardly. kernel stuff is often more complex than it should be. Feb 21 20:08:29 cjb: OK, then simple flash_eraseall and/or dd command wont destroy critical u-boot sectors? Feb 21 20:09:29 aloril2: Don't know, sorry. I'm most familiar with OLPC, which has its bootloader in the BIOS. Feb 21 20:10:26 depending on the flash used you can lock sectors/cells Feb 21 20:10:42 so you have to use mtd-utils to unlock it first Feb 21 20:11:40 what's the point of locking sectors of a flash drive? Feb 21 20:12:18 how long does it take to boot into the qemu-arm image Feb 21 20:12:32 loufoque: to prevent users dd'ing nonsense to them Feb 21 20:13:32 I see. Feb 21 20:14:30 koen: 'unprotect'; dd .. Feb 21 20:15:07 aloril2: right Feb 21 20:15:29 aloril2: there's no good prevention against PEBKAC Feb 21 20:15:36 but people can try :) Feb 21 20:16:26 mhh, the NAND used on the neo1973 doesn't have protection, and neither does the S3C2410's NAND controller Feb 21 20:16:44 Ah, shame. Feb 21 20:16:50 Can it boot from USB storage? Feb 21 20:16:56 mtd partitions can also be declared write-only in the kernel Feb 21 20:17:09 Do you mean read-only? Feb 21 20:17:30 vmaster: I only encountered intel NOR that could do it Feb 21 20:17:37 cjb: yeah :) how did you know? Feb 21 20:18:11 write only media are fun Feb 21 20:18:11 "You should not run commands given in IRC if you don't undrstand them" Feb 21 20:18:25 one could consider /dev/null a device driver that handles write only media in a generic way Feb 21 20:18:38 :) Feb 21 20:20:23 nbd: it doesn't support seeking though Feb 21 20:20:27 cjb: don't think it can boot from USB - if a user really manages to kill the bootloader he'll need JTAG to unbrick the device Feb 21 20:20:43 vmaster: Ouch. The JTAG connector is populated, at least? Feb 21 20:21:07 loufoque: echo foo | dd of=/dev/null bs=1M seek=2 Feb 21 20:21:09 loufoque: works for me :) Feb 21 20:21:15 * cjb contemplates setting up a $20 unbrick-your-Neo center at his house ;-) Feb 21 20:21:30 cjb: there's a debug board available that makes JTAG available Feb 21 20:21:37 cjb: If you like to work on bootloader you really like to get a debug board which gives you a jtag on board Feb 21 20:22:11 cjb: And use vmaster's OpenOCD to dirive it. :) Feb 21 20:22:23 stefan_schmidt: Oh, that's good, I didn't realise the debug board had JTAG. We have a Neo here with no debug board.. Feb 21 20:22:57 * xkr47 is happy that LaF0rge found those hardware bugs in time Feb 21 20:23:11 for phase 1 at least .P Feb 21 20:23:25 cjb: Yes, debug board v2 has the jatg chip on the boards. Feb 21 20:23:34 * stefan_schmidt likes this board. Feb 21 20:23:43 i wonder how many might slip through their fingers Feb 21 20:23:55 stefan_schmidt: That's a neat board. Feb 21 20:23:57 It has even a connector for other jtag enabled devices. Feb 21 20:24:03 cjb: indeed Feb 21 20:24:34 * koen builds openmoko for powerpc Feb 21 20:24:37 cjb: Something many hackers thought about already but where not able to produce as FIC can Feb 21 20:25:10 * stefan_schmidt has a problem with the o-hand repo again Feb 21 20:25:20 NOTE: Update svn://svn.o-hand.com/repos/dates/branches/private;module=omoko;proto=https Feb 21 20:25:20 svn: REPORT request failed on '/repos/dates/!svn/vcc/default' Feb 21 20:25:20 svn: Cannot replace a directory from within Feb 21 20:25:31 stefan_schmidt: wait ~2 hours Feb 21 20:25:43 stefan_schmidt: that repo didn't exist last midnight Feb 21 20:26:02 koen: ah, ok Feb 21 20:26:29 stefan_schmidt: I realised that after the commit, sorry about that Feb 21 20:26:33 * stefan_schmidt likes to get a x86 / xoo setup ready for fast testing with the qvga theme Feb 21 20:26:47 koen: np Feb 21 20:29:36 * aloril2 thinks that also p2 should have jtag accessible inside case like p0/p1 will have: then you can unbrick them relatively painlessly Feb 21 20:30:24 * koen wonders how many times users actually bricked devices during regular operation Feb 21 20:31:23 koen: probably very rare Feb 21 20:31:59 aloril2: I don't think they remove the adapter in P2. Why should they? Feb 21 20:32:01 koen: Jim Gettys has an iPaq "Valhalla" of bricked devices people sent him to recover. Feb 21 20:32:29 cjb: that's because people were flashing bootloaders from inside wince Feb 21 20:32:30 koen: He said people would download random ROMs they found in people's web directories and write them to their iPaqs. Apparently it was a huge problem. Feb 21 20:32:45 s/ROM/image/ Feb 21 20:32:55 still would be bad pr if somebod bricks device by pasting 'simple command' and there was no 'easy' way to unbrick Feb 21 20:33:34 Maybe it should have something like IE 7's reset button. Feb 21 20:33:34 "rm -rf /" Feb 21 20:33:37 paste that Feb 21 20:33:47 * LuitvD is glad his PDA can't get bricked easily Feb 21 20:33:47 aloril2: I'm sure they make it hard for p2 phase to brick the device Feb 21 20:34:00 koen: lol, that's a nice command Feb 21 20:34:08 channel hi Feb 21 20:34:16 errr, hi Feb 21 20:34:18 Skyhusker: hi Feb 21 20:34:22 XD Feb 21 20:34:26 hi koen Feb 21 20:34:26 hi Skyhusker Feb 21 20:34:31 hello Skyhusker Feb 21 20:35:01 koen: "rm -rf /" is like windows' "format c:" right? Feb 21 20:35:02 hi LuitvD Feb 21 20:35:12 stefan_schmidt: lol, he ignores you :D Feb 21 20:35:16 More like deltree c:\ Feb 21 20:35:19 LuitvD: no, like deltree -y Feb 21 20:35:23 heheh Feb 21 20:35:33 sorry, don't know any msdos commands Feb 21 20:35:41 apart from dir and cd... Feb 21 20:36:11 I guess it won't do much as non-root though, so it's not such an easy command. Feb 21 20:36:16 koen: you can recover from that by following instructions, no need to send/bring Neo1973 to somebody with debug_board Feb 21 20:36:34 debug_board? why the underscore? Feb 21 20:38:28 Is the firmware for the Neo open-source too? Feb 21 20:38:51 cjb: which firmware you refer to? Feb 21 20:39:19 stefan_schmidt: Whatever boots the NAND. I was thinking about writing (well, porting) a USB capable bootloader. Feb 21 20:39:59 cjb: hmm, NAND needs something else then a driver in the bootloader? Feb 21 20:40:16 cjb: the cpu boots the nand directly Feb 21 20:40:18 stefan_schmidt: Well, I want to do it for when the NAND is unbootable. Feb 21 20:40:25 cjb: Bootloader is uboot. And the patches are already started to send upstream Feb 21 20:40:45 cjb: if the nand is unbootable, oyu must use jtag to restore it Feb 21 20:41:20 So it needs to be a layer above the NAND, in the BIOS/EC. Feb 21 20:41:20 brb Feb 21 20:41:48 no, the cpu boots directly from the nand Feb 21 20:42:05 uboot is the first thing that is executed, and it is loaded from nand Feb 21 20:42:33 doesn't it need a first-stage that fits in the 4k stepping stone? Feb 21 20:42:44 that 4K is loaded from nand Feb 21 20:42:44 which enables sdram, and then loads u-boot Feb 21 20:42:56 and is the first 4K of uboot Feb 21 20:43:14 ah, that's already part of u-boot? nice Feb 21 20:43:46 cjb: OpenMoko u-boot already has USB-seria support Feb 21 20:43:48 unfortunatley the cpu can only boot from either NAND or directly connected flasg Feb 21 20:44:04 s/seria/serial/ Feb 21 20:44:05 aloril2 meant: cjb: OpenMoko u-boot already has USB-serial support Feb 21 20:50:57 and usb-dfu support Feb 21 20:52:31 * buz is confused Feb 21 20:52:43 usb-dfu is what is actually usefull Feb 21 20:52:48 exactly how am i supposed to change the X config in the qemu arm image??? Feb 21 20:53:05 remove the 270? Feb 21 20:53:07 buz: use Xoo instead of qemu Feb 21 20:53:15 or use Xoo in combination with qemu Feb 21 20:53:28 you just need Xoo really Feb 21 20:53:36 i'm lazy Feb 21 20:53:46 otherwise read the devel-list Feb 21 20:53:50 i just want to download some image and look at it ;) Feb 21 20:54:07 * koen hands buz a image of tubgirl Feb 21 20:54:25 that lost its shock value long ago Feb 21 20:54:30 koen: you're so nasty Feb 21 20:54:48 * SpeedEvil adds a chocolate fountain to Hardware:Wishlist Feb 21 20:55:21 noway, 2litre/sec flatrate line from brewery Feb 21 20:55:41 wicked Feb 21 21:01:11 heh Feb 21 21:03:16 SpeedEvil, :D Feb 21 21:44:24 building svn: "package openmoko-dialer-0.0.1+svn20070221-r0: task do_configure: failed" because "configure: error: *** Required libasound not installed ***" Feb 21 21:56:20 koen, any hint there ^^^ ? One thing I don't understand is whether that means it's missing an .ipkg dep that it wants or does it need some local/cross library. cluebat? :) Feb 21 21:56:36 no, you don't understand Feb 21 21:56:48 it's missing a build time dependency, not an ipkg Feb 21 21:56:49 install the devel portion of that library Feb 21 21:57:00 LoRez: bzzzzt! wrong! Feb 21 21:57:30 how is it wrong when it's very nearly what you said? Feb 21 21:57:43 jebba: bitbake alsa-lib or add 'alsa-lib' to the DEPENDS of openmoko-dialer_svn.bb Feb 21 21:57:52 LoRez: because it's wrong Feb 21 21:58:01 LoRez: go read up on openembedded Feb 21 21:58:16 I personally don't give a big enough shit :) Feb 21 21:58:23 koen, actually i did try adding alsa-lib to that... Feb 21 21:58:30 that's what i did first Feb 21 22:00:15 openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-dialer_svn.bb Feb 21 22:00:15 DEPENDS += "libgsmd alsa-lib" Feb 21 22:01:12 does that come before or after the inherit? Feb 21 22:01:26 in fact, I even have libasound2_1.0.13-r1_armv5te.ipk hmm. Feb 21 22:01:42 before. Feb 21 22:02:55 try 'bitbake alsa-lib' Feb 21 22:03:14 if that runs the staging tasks I think I know what's wrong Feb 21 22:04:15 koen, ya, that's already built. I thought i may have just been misunderstanding the whole process a bit, but it sounds like the problem is something deeper. Thanks for sanity checking me though. ;) Feb 21 22:19:12 koen, ah, its eds-dbus. The error set me on a wrong path: http://www.pastebin.ca/366812 Feb 21 22:20:09 koen@bitbake:~/OE/monotone/org.openembedded.dev/packages/openmoko-apps$ grep DEPENDS openmoko-dialer_svn.bb Feb 21 22:20:10 DEPENDS += " eds-dbus libgsmd" Feb 21 22:20:11 That said, what's the best/fastest way to get ' DEPENDS += "libgsmd eds-dbus" ' added to openmoko-dialer_svn.bb ? Feb 21 22:20:24 that's why I don't use openmoko svn Feb 21 22:20:27 heh Feb 21 22:21:00 ya, when OE/OM are combined...will be nice. That's throwing me off a bit. Feb 21 22:21:21 "I'm just here for dictation--don't want to be a sensation..." Feb 21 22:21:46 koen: not really, why? Feb 21 22:22:19 robtaylor: just wondering Feb 21 22:22:25 koen, ya, so if some OM guy is hacking away at openmoko-dialer how do you get their new $foo feature yet maintain your "eds-dbus" fix? Feb 21 22:22:46 robtaylor: now I know I need to hassle Robot101 for telepathy stuff :) Feb 21 22:22:57 jebba: the .bb file is not the source Feb 21 22:23:32 koen: well, i'm working on an application that uses telepathy :) Feb 21 22:23:49 robtaylor: ah right, I fear I asked that question before Feb 21 22:24:16 robtaylor, telepathy for VoIP IIRC? Feb 21 22:24:26 softphones + jingle or something, no? Feb 21 22:24:38 jebba: telepathy for im, voip Feb 21 22:24:57 jebba: all the im/vvoip on the n800 is done with it Feb 21 22:25:19 ya, i was poking at that once, but the main gui was mono and i don't go there ;) Feb 21 22:25:40 jebba: ah, you can now use gossip Feb 21 22:26:05 i just settled on kiax, which has faults, but works... gossip do IAX2? Feb 21 22:30:12 gossip does not to IAX2 (nor SIP for that matter). ... Feb 21 22:40:05 hi Feb 21 22:41:19 hey Feb 21 22:43:15 hmm, not good... they found out they can extract methane from alaska's ice... Feb 21 22:43:16 http://www.ktuu.com/Global/story.asp?S=6115953 Feb 21 22:43:31 there goes the environment... Feb 21 23:04:48 openmoko: 03laforge * r1076 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files): Feb 21 23:04:48 openmoko: * move S3C23410 resume related definitions from udc patch to resume patch Feb 21 23:04:48 openmoko: * merge qt2410 and neo1973 resume patches into one which now edits start.S Feb 21 23:07:45 counter Feb 21 23:07:46 P0: a week 12:18:16 (1.513 - 7.513 days); P1: 23.513 - 38.513; P2: 191.513 - 221.513 (long: "/msg aloril counter?") (381) Feb 21 23:14:48 hrw|gone, does that push phase1 as well? I assume so, but just chekcing. Feb 21 23:15:42 aloril, you may have to update your P0 c0unter... Feb 21 23:18:05 I hope it doesn't push P1... Feb 21 23:18:46 mightn't it be just a good idea to give the P0 people a P1 device? or are the P0 devices already produced? Feb 21 23:19:20 mightn't it be just a good idea to give me a P0/1 device? ;) Feb 21 23:19:36 lol Feb 21 23:20:03 mightn't it be just a good idea to give everyone in the world a P2 device? Feb 21 23:20:27 (or any other device of choise that'll run openmoko) Feb 21 23:20:49 I might be able to get one of those e2881 devices :) Feb 21 23:21:38 I think I'll like that device more then a Neo1973 Feb 21 23:21:51 but I'm not sure, because I don't know the price yet... Feb 21 23:21:57 openmoko + last.fm + GPS + Neighbors would be interesting... One issue is getting enough people up on it. It's like having a telephone that can only call 1 person. Feb 21 23:22:05 I do know someone who can find out the price though :) Feb 21 23:22:27 hmm... Feb 21 23:22:37 last.fm for openmoko would be cool :D Feb 21 23:22:52 i just have a really shitty low-end cellphone. I've had fancy ones in the past but the thought of fkn with them for 4 hours to get mp3 or something just put me off. Of course I'll spend hundreds of hours on one that's open though. ;) Feb 21 23:24:09 yeah... trying to hack your way in to closed source software is annoying Feb 21 23:24:34 an hacking your way into open source software isn't possible :) Feb 21 23:25:46 * LuitvD still can't choose between FIC's Neo1973, and this: http://www.e28.com/e28mobile/mobile_e2881_image.htm Feb 21 23:26:13 actually, the phone isn't really "shitty" it's just low-end. It's really "perfect", but nearly featureless. Cheap + good keypad. Feb 21 23:26:31 :P Feb 21 23:26:41 good keypad is essential for good texting :P Feb 21 23:27:27 ya, i just saw the e28 stuff for the first time here today. Looks very interesting, but it all depends if it's open or not. I mean there is already nokia/mot/etc stuff with linux, but so what? Get a QTphone devkit for $400? The huge difference here is that it's freakin open. Feb 21 23:27:44 I bought this device once, and it was well worth it's price (not that difficult, because it was cheap) : http://www.actu-mobile.com/sagem/517-Sagem-myZ-5.jpg Feb 21 23:28:06 QTphone? Feb 21 23:28:09 ya, whatever. Cute phones everywhere. But a cute /open/ phone. Now that's different. Feb 21 23:28:18 hmm Feb 21 23:28:22 QTphone=whatever that trolltech greenphone(?) thing is. Feb 21 23:28:28 well... it runs linux natively... that's a start... Feb 21 23:28:36 the greenphone is 800 dollars ;) Feb 21 23:28:38 don't forget that Feb 21 23:28:51 and the SDK is another Neo on top of that Feb 21 23:28:54 :P Feb 21 23:28:56 800 dollars is only about £400 though Feb 21 23:29:05 is that so? Feb 21 23:29:14 ~convert 800 usd to gbp Feb 21 23:29:15 Not much more than most other unlocked phones Feb 21 23:29:17 a start... but still. Just getting all the code up front in svn versus spending the first week getting a fkn terminal are two totally different things. I have no interest on trying to get going on something that's so closed, no matter what it is.... Feb 21 23:29:18 gbp is an invalid unit? Feb 21 23:29:28 apt: you suck Feb 21 23:29:30 no, *you* suck! Feb 21 23:29:34 lol Feb 21 23:29:41 apt sucks Feb 21 23:29:43 only if you ask nicely and pay well. Feb 21 23:29:51 AAAAAH Feb 21 23:29:55 DO NOT WANt Feb 21 23:29:55 0:03:42 800 USD (U.S. Dollar) is 409.3544 GBP (British Pound). Feb 21 23:29:56 : Feb 21 23:30:04 :| Feb 21 23:30:06 Dollars are worth nothing Feb 21 23:30:06 right... Feb 21 23:30:15 ~convert 800 usd to eur Feb 21 23:30:19 eur is an invalid unit? Feb 21 23:30:29 apt is being a dick... Feb 21 23:30:32 ~convert 800 usd to usd Feb 21 23:30:36 800 usd is approximately 800 usd Feb 21 23:30:39 lol Feb 21 23:30:39 heh Feb 21 23:30:49 that's not true! Feb 21 23:30:50 :P Feb 21 23:30:55 00:04:47 800 USD (U.S. Dollar) is 608.8280 EUR (Euro). Feb 21 23:31:11 ~convert 800 usd to nzd Feb 21 23:31:13 600 euro's ... that's expensive for a device like htat Feb 21 23:31:15 nzd is an invalid unit? Feb 21 23:31:17 there are some other very cool free fone approaches though that look even "nicer" than the FIC neo, in that they publish their schematics as well. But they are not like Neo production. See: www.hbmobile.org opencellphone.org widgetry.org Feb 21 23:31:24 ~calculate 800 usd in eur Feb 21 23:31:28 hmm... Feb 21 23:31:54 * LuitvD opens all three links in diffrent tabs Feb 21 23:32:12 The neo is $350? Feb 21 23:32:20 If FIC/openmoko made their schematics free/open so people could replicate the hardware, tehen we'd really have taken another leap :) Feb 21 23:32:22 benJIman: yes Feb 21 23:32:34 jebba: not really... Feb 21 23:32:35 less than £180, nice Feb 21 23:32:37 benJIman, it's more like $infinity right now, but eventually it'll be $350 Feb 21 23:33:11 jebba: not really... I guess you could buy a GTA01v2 off some developers, because it doesn't work :P Feb 21 23:33:21 heh Feb 21 23:33:40 hell, maybe you can even buy the one sean is showing on each event untill now Feb 21 23:34:02 * LuitvD wonders if it'd be a good idea to try that at the fosdem beer party... Feb 21 23:34:53 jebba: that widgetry stuff looks ... expensive... Feb 21 23:34:55 big Feb 21 23:35:12 gumstix + 60GB microdrive + 200$ touchscreen Feb 21 23:35:19 I'm really waiting for openmoko (distro) + tuxphone + reprap :) Feb 21 23:35:36 wonder what the battery on that one will be... lead-acid? :P Feb 21 23:35:48 tuxphone? Feb 21 23:35:55 bah... Feb 21 23:35:55 LuitvD, ya, at that point it becomes your PC.... just come home & plug in USB keyboard etc. Feb 21 23:36:04 yeah... Feb 21 23:36:12 that thing is more like an UM-UMPC Feb 21 23:36:29 well, i'm not saying now. I'm just saying hardware that is that open would rock too. But it's not called a Frankenphone for nothing... Feb 21 23:37:26 damn, the GSM-GPRS-EDGE-GPS device they use in that widgetry thing is 170$ off the shelf... Feb 21 23:38:00 prices always come down. It's about openness/freedom ;) Feb 21 23:38:03 it's the most expensive one on sparkfun.com Feb 21 23:38:14 sparkfun.com itself kicks ass..... Feb 21 23:38:36 yeah, prices will come down... though only after the next hype has initiated... Feb 21 23:38:44 now if the FIC people could just send their schematics to the sparkfun.com guys..we'd have a damn interesting combo :))))) Feb 21 23:39:04 it's not fair the open-source developers always have to use outdated or expensive hardware to be comfortable Feb 21 23:39:27 one battle at a time Feb 21 23:39:40 They made gsm phones from old Western Electric rotary handsets. That kicks ass. Feb 21 23:39:48 jebba: not really... building your own pcb on that is way more expensive then building the design in batches of 100s Feb 21 23:40:16 jebba: how do you text with a rotary knob? Feb 21 23:40:38 sparkfun + open schematics... I'm not taking expense/scalability, i'm talking full breakable toy ;) Feb 21 23:41:04 lol Feb 21 23:41:30 of what use is making your own device, if you can't produce a nice case for it? Feb 21 23:41:43 or do you think you actually can? Feb 21 23:41:43 LuitvD, this was a "standard" cell phone, not SMS and stuff. http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=286 Feb 21 23:42:15 yeah, i know... Feb 21 23:42:19 the case comes from Reprap (in fantasy future world here...) Feb 21 23:42:50 I rather have my sagem myz5 then that rotary phone Feb 21 23:43:25 jebba: reprap is nice... Feb 21 23:44:08 it laser-prints into some sort of liquid plastic, hardening it that way, right Feb 21 23:44:09 ?? Feb 21 23:44:35 ya, well it can use a bunch of different materials. check wikipedia. there is another similar free project out there as well. Feb 21 23:44:42 lasering a thermosetting plastic... Feb 21 23:46:11 lol, how much does a reprap cost? :P Feb 21 23:47:01 it'd be fun to try to create a custom FIC neo backplate with that RepRap device Feb 22 00:08:46 comeawn! Feb 22 00:09:05 (ill be back later with another random message) Feb 22 00:10:36 :) Feb 22 00:10:41 entertaining... Feb 22 00:13:01 damn, a GSM+GPRS+GPS device is pricey... Feb 22 00:13:10 150$... Feb 22 00:16:59 got a link for one? Feb 22 00:17:28 sparkfun has some Feb 22 00:17:40 http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=8246# Feb 22 00:17:43 for example Feb 22 00:18:03 this is the cheapest one: http://www.sparkfun.com/commerce/product_info.php?products_id=757 Feb 22 00:18:17 120$ tops, 102$ at 100+ volumes Feb 22 00:19:55 hmm, the PCB design needs to be perfect too... Feb 22 00:20:08 voltage spikes up to 2A, at 216Hz Feb 22 00:20:28 (means thick tracks...) Feb 22 00:20:56 (and some well-calculated capacative functions) Feb 22 00:22:14 and you can't use a switching power supply on that module... Feb 22 00:24:55 LuitvD, i have a gm862 for sale if you want to buy it Feb 22 00:25:28 parag0n: nah... maybe if you sell it for a nice price... Feb 22 00:26:04 but I guess I won't be able to use it until I'm halfway through college... Feb 22 00:28:28 parag0n: where did you get it? Feb 22 00:28:43 a mate of mine bought it from sparkfun Feb 22 00:29:08 he's decided to sell it now, because he wants to buy about 12 tonnes of watches or something Feb 22 00:29:26 i've got it in the UK because its easier to ship from here Feb 22 00:30:39 parag0n: don't think you can get me to buy it... or the price should be really interesting :P Feb 22 00:31:06 if not, I'm just waiting for either a Neo or an e2881 Feb 22 00:31:45 i'll have to find out how much he wants for it Feb 22 00:33:23 hmm... guess it's too much anyways... looking at the sparkfun prices... Feb 22 00:33:47 off the shelf it's a third of the Neo Feb 22 00:50:42 oehhh, Feb 22 00:50:53 * LuitvD is getting more confident in the e28 devices Feb 22 00:51:18 reading on linuxdevices about the "low-cost"-ness of those device :D Feb 22 00:51:21 +S Feb 22 00:58:26 http://linuxdevices.com/news/NS4475809720.html Feb 22 00:58:27 :) Feb 22 00:59:04 that was one year ago, for a GSM/GPRS/GPS linux device... for 300$ :D Feb 22 00:59:12 no, wait... Feb 22 00:59:13 euros Feb 22 00:59:23 somewhat similar price as the neo Feb 22 00:59:25 2.4.20 Feb 22 00:59:34 yes Feb 22 00:59:36 java blah Feb 22 00:59:44 though with wifi too :) Feb 22 00:59:58 and their source code? Where can I `svn`? Feb 22 01:00:27 :P Feb 22 01:00:34 not saying it's an alternative... Feb 22 01:00:48 just showing what I'm reading and what's interesting... Feb 22 01:00:58 one full year ago tomorrow... Feb 22 01:01:05 that device Feb 22 01:02:42 lol, look at the title of that article: http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS4035002888.html Feb 22 01:02:44 so true Feb 22 01:02:57 ya, no problem. I'm just commenting on the "if it ain't got source code with it, to hell with it i'm not gonna bother" ;) This is where openmoko is really everything, no matter the hardware (which is still excellent). Add open schematics and you have euphoria ;) Feb 22 01:05:06 OT but i'm really looking forward to making asterisk_1.4.bb :) Feb 22 01:05:41 "Qtopia® by Trolltech® | One Platform, No Limits" ... :| Feb 22 01:05:44 yeah right... Feb 22 01:06:24 400$ for an SDK is quite a limit... Feb 22 01:08:38 ok. I'm gonna MACHINE="spitz" but i'm not promising i'm gonna replace my zaurus/openbsd ;) (self-hosted--all packages built on the device itself--openbsd rocks too!) Feb 22 01:09:10 jebba_: then just backup the openbsd? ,,, Feb 22 01:09:37 jebba_: did you recompile for qemuarm + rotation patch yet? Feb 22 01:09:37 :) Feb 22 01:10:18 LuitvD, no, i haven't done a qemu with rotation yet. Feb 22 01:10:48 jebba: somebody wrote a hacky patch for that right? Feb 22 01:12:04 hmm... how do I get a cursor pointer in that qemuarm build... reconfiguring the pointer device to "mouse" ? Feb 22 01:14:05 the screen rotation comes in due to my change to /etc/X11/Xserver just take out the whole "-screen 640x480@270" and you'll have more like default (which incorrectly shows landscape mode). The next qemu images I have will likely be unmodified. Feb 22 01:15:00 i haven't figured out the cursor thing yet. It appears to be matchbox(?) related, as it shows up ok over the rxvt screen. I tried -softCursor but it didn't help (i guess at things to make them work--i'm not an engineer ;) Feb 22 01:15:35 hmm Feb 22 01:16:40 but can't you force matchbox to take a mouse-like pointer device instead of a touchscreen-like pointer device? Feb 22 01:17:02 * LuitvD thought he'd seen screenshots of openmoko on the neo with a cursor... Feb 22 01:21:54 uhh, should try to go to sleep now... Feb 22 01:22:02 3 am already Feb 22 01:24:27 there Feb 22 01:24:36 sleeping sequence initiated Feb 22 01:28:24 hey libervisco. I've appointed myself official channel timewaster. How's things? Feb 22 01:28:43 hehe hi jebba, all is good :) Feb 22 01:28:45 you? Feb 22 01:29:36 not bad at all. It's nice to work on a project for a few days and to build enthusiasm and ideas more & more with each passing hour. Sounds foo perhaps, but a fun free project beats the hell out of an open one ;) Feb 22 01:30:11 sure it does :) Feb 22 01:30:28 you mean BLAG? Feb 22 01:31:26 oh, i dig blag too, but I'm biased... I'm getting cracking away @ iBLAG cuz iPhone is for *($@ Feb 22 01:31:46 oh Feb 22 01:32:07 is there a site for iBLAG? Feb 22 01:33:09 no, it's just a joke in development. Feb 22 01:33:22 ah I see :) Feb 22 01:33:42 but you can check out BLASTERISK, which will definitely be a part: http://www.blagblagblag.org/BLASTERISK/ Feb 22 01:34:17 yeah :) Feb 22 01:34:24 once neo 'net is solid (e.g. koen's OMFG wifi), integrating VoIP will be, well, speechless (pawn) Feb 22 01:34:37 in fact, feel free to abuse blasterisk voip Feb 22 01:34:57 some time next month I am also gonna launch a web site about open phones like OpenMoko, powered by Free Software and standards Feb 22 01:35:06 irc.indymedia.org #indytel -- free voip/asterisk Feb 22 01:36:00 libervisco, I really don't know any other than tuxphone and opencell The rest just take the code a'la OSX ... Feb 22 01:36:34 yeah Feb 22 01:36:40 I only knew of asterisk actually Feb 22 01:36:44 but it shouldn't be forgotten that the GPS and GSM of neo are /not/ free but binary evil spies. Good enough can suck., Feb 22 01:37:49 i've spent quite awhile @ asterisk. Looked like sendmail.cf the first time I tried to do something with it. But i've managed to route "millions" of calls and other oddness with it (streaming radio in/out, speech recognition tricks, etc..) Feb 22 01:38:49 cool Feb 22 01:38:55 libervisco, btw thanks for you blag review you did a few months ago. I think it was our 3rd press mention ;) Feb 22 01:39:09 only third? :) Feb 22 01:39:12 . . . blag? Feb 22 01:39:20 hmm maybe we should write another one then :) Feb 22 01:39:26 for new versions Feb 22 01:39:33 so you guys aren't all just paying homage to xkcd then? Feb 22 01:39:39 jebba, btw, I didn't write that review, it was one member Feb 22 01:39:41 heh. pretty much. lwn mentions "obscure FSF distros such as..." and we even get left out of /that/ shortlist.. ;0 Feb 22 01:39:45 Iestyn Price Feb 22 01:40:51 libervisco, anyway your site looks like a nice addition to the newspace. somewhere between lwn and /. Feb 22 01:41:14 newspace? Feb 22 01:41:24 net Feb 22 01:41:26 newspace? man, i've definitely lost my mind. sorry for the noise, those of you looking at the scrollback, but i may continue to spew... Feb 22 01:42:11 news space i meant. like linux reporting which got obnoxiously corporate (except for lwn's corbet [wondernews]) Feb 22 01:42:12 Although if it was a sound-a-like, nudespace almost works. Feb 22 01:42:14 ah Feb 22 01:42:51 oh thanks jebba Feb 22 01:42:54 the tone of libervisco was much more "one guy sitting down and saying it like it was" than some cnet review or someshit. Feb 22 01:43:29 and not obnoxiously provocative ("OMFG ESR switched distros") Feb 22 01:43:42 hehe Feb 22 01:44:33 I liked that /. tagged that with 'slownewsday' Feb 22 01:44:41 though our sites aren't really news sites.. more like discussion sites and commentary (Libervis.com) and tech support for Free Software (Nuxified.org) Feb 22 01:44:58 Anyone here happen to have hardware, can ask agpsd for a position every second, and strace it for an hour or so, so I can have a look at the bitstreams? Feb 22 01:45:08 To see if I can reverse them. Feb 22 01:45:53 (in and out) Feb 22 01:46:17 Ideally, a lock cycle too. Feb 22 01:46:37 libervisco, BLASTERISK was initially set up for tech support. The idea was to build a list of SIP/IAX2 addresses that would be willing to do gnu/linux tech support + DIDs in as many parts of the world as we could spot. Local user calls local number and gets routed to volunteer geek around the world to say "type '/sbin/ifconfig' instead of just 'ifconfig'". But everyone just jumped on the free long distance. ;) Feb 22 01:47:29 :) Feb 22 01:47:39 SpeedEvil, i aint got no neo, but i can run gpsd against a shitty usb gpd device on my laptop if that noise would help. Feb 22 01:47:44 Nope. Feb 22 01:48:00 I'm looking for the bitstream into/out of the hammerhead. Feb 22 01:48:07 To see if I can reverse engineer it. Feb 22 01:48:16 ya, that's some rare piece of info right now... Feb 22 01:48:26 I'm wondering if it'd be possible to install some free mobile software on SonyErricson K310i.. Feb 22 01:49:17 tho I plan to buy Neo when it gets better Feb 22 01:49:22 libervisco, i think that's the wrong approach. Lets stop reverse engineering non-helpful hardware. Fuck them. Lets go for supporting the forward looking folks like PIC and the opencell/tuxmobile approaches. Feb 22 01:49:43 PIC? Feb 22 01:49:58 Uh, FIC ;) Feb 22 01:50:04 oh Feb 22 01:50:07 right :) Feb 22 01:50:08 I agree Feb 22 01:50:19 gonna buy Neo definitely (if they'll ship to Croatia) Feb 22 01:50:21 the company has a kind of generic acronym. They need some radical marketing ;) Feb 22 01:50:23 just not right now... Feb 22 01:50:55 $350 is a bit much for something I'll probably want to replace soon Feb 22 01:51:03 ya, funny the fact that everyone in this channel wants the hardware yet, HOW MANY PEOPLE IN THIS CHANNEL WONDER IF THE DEVICE CAN BE SHIPPED TO THEIR COUNTRY? Feb 22 01:51:07 since this is the first and probably weakest version Feb 22 01:51:08 woah, caps lock Feb 22 01:51:27 jebba: the website says shipping worldwide. Feb 22 01:51:41 oh that's cool :) Feb 22 01:51:52 ya, /they'll/ ship worldwide. But will argentina customs let me play with the thing? Feb 22 01:52:12 hmm yeah will it work with local ISPs? Feb 22 01:52:12 FIC needs to get Laurence Fishburne to do a matrix-ish commercial: I can just hear him saying 'Free your Phone' Feb 22 01:52:37 libervisco: thing is, if you don't buy one they might not be around to make v2 Feb 22 01:52:49 libervisco, "will replace soon". The reason people usually replace is that they can't change the device software. 200MHz arm can be taken a long way. Hell, stretch it for a decade@! Feb 22 01:53:15 jebba, yeah, but why not a bit more space? Feb 22 01:53:23 more space? Feb 22 01:53:24 can I at least attach a USB stick to it? Feb 22 01:53:41 libervisco, you can do mini-SD which is presently @ 4gig. Feb 22 01:53:54 oh Feb 22 01:54:02 jebba: I don't think the Neo SD support SDHC. Feb 22 01:54:06 the future, will of course, contain much less space, so you'll have to content yourself with 512k. That's just the way it goes. Feb 22 01:54:07 So 4G wouldn't work/ Feb 22 01:54:07 . Feb 22 01:54:20 :\ Feb 22 01:54:27 is SDHC hardware? Feb 22 01:54:33 Or is it just software? Feb 22 01:54:41 both. Feb 22 01:54:43 'just' being... Feb 22 01:54:47 every 18 months there will be less space, so you better update your Contacts immediately or they won't fit. Feb 22 01:54:52 It can't be implemented in current hardware? Feb 22 01:55:14 the controller needs to support being put into SDHC, the driver needs to send the command and deal with the data format change. Feb 22 01:55:42 In 5 years all of openmoko will have to fit in 64k Feb 22 01:56:08 Can the current hardware do this? Or is there a hack like - it'll work in the slow serial mode only. Feb 22 01:56:30 SpeedEvil: it has nothing to do with speed. Feb 22 01:56:36 64 MB (expandable with 2 GB microSD) Feb 22 01:56:39 says wiki Feb 22 01:56:48 I was meaning the 'compatibility' mode. Feb 22 01:56:50 so no more than 2GB microSD? Feb 22 01:56:55 * SpeedEvil should really go and read the standard. Feb 22 01:57:09 (that he doesn't have.) Feb 22 01:57:10 SpeedEvil: I don't think the standard's public, actually. Feb 22 01:57:20 SD is notoriously closed. Feb 22 01:57:26 I diddn't download it off edonkey at all. Feb 22 01:57:27 and how much software can you really install on just 64MB anyway? Feb 22 01:57:43 libervisco, well, you can get your self booted + functional. Feb 22 01:57:44 Quite a bit. Feb 22 01:57:45 apt-get and so little space kind of don't fit :\ Feb 22 01:57:50 If you are careful about stuff. Feb 22 01:57:54 but no music sitting around... Feb 22 01:58:01 * cjb &. Feb 22 01:58:13 libervisco, on openembedded ipkg=apt Feb 22 01:58:23 jebba, well music is ok, I can have an USB stick for that, but will neo allow me to plug my USB stick to it? Feb 22 01:58:27 and is quite lean. IIRC i've done it with OpenWRT Feb 22 01:58:45 It will be functional. Do normal phone things, and maybe have a 5M spare for contacts and voice call records and PIM stuff. Feb 22 01:59:03 libervisco, with USB the device has to be self powering. Most devices I understand will need a USB hub with power. I assume this includes USB drive. Feb 22 01:59:19 ah Feb 22 01:59:21 However, you can keep a library of micro-SDs. Feb 22 01:59:30 And a SD-reader. Feb 22 01:59:35 SpeedEvil, ya, but the best thing is to pop in 256M+ into SD slot... then you really open up what you can do.... Feb 22 01:59:40 yeah. Feb 22 01:59:51 * SpeedEvil is going to be making a powered SD reader. Feb 22 02:00:19 sdmicro that is. At least first. Feb 22 02:00:22 another issue is that I've got only EDGE with my ISP, no GPRS.. and wifi isn't supported in my area anyway... Feb 22 02:00:44 libervisco, there is a micro SD reader if you missed my nonsense above. 2gb SD is available, and 4gb exists. Even 256m is "common" and really allows much more on the device than the mere 64M.... Feb 22 02:01:06 cool Feb 22 02:01:11 The 64M is 'base' state. Feb 22 02:01:20 It needs to work, otherwise you can't swap the SD Feb 22 02:01:36 libervisco, I haven't wrapped my head around the different data systems. In that I mean GPRS, EDGE, and some other one they had in new orleans... Feb 22 02:01:48 (or you need SDs with predefined blobs on them. Feb 22 02:02:13 Like I think I can get GPRS from my local telco, but I don't understand what the other GSM data systems are. Feb 22 02:03:36 you can get GPRS here too I think, but it's mostly EDGE and UMTS now Feb 22 02:03:39 I use EDGE right now Feb 22 02:04:07 since I'm in an area not supported by T-Com's ADSL yet (and they're a monopoly), I use EDGE + satellite DSL Feb 22 02:04:19 I have gsm in argentina, but i have no idea what they have wrt EDGE (gsm data) Feb 22 02:04:22 so I'm thinking I could use the same EDGE account on mobile.. but Neo wont support it Feb 22 02:05:14 What is such a big difference anyway that OpenMoko can't support EDGE instead of GPRS, USB 2.0 instead of USB 1.1 etc.. why this insistence on older versions? Feb 22 02:05:28 USB2/1 is more expensive. Feb 22 02:05:34 requires a faster CPU Feb 22 02:05:47 and more expensive CPU, with a USB2 controller. Feb 22 02:05:58 And USB2 controllers use lots more power. Feb 22 02:06:08 It's also a market thing. Feb 22 02:06:16 EDGE would be utterly useless to me. Feb 22 02:06:43 EDGE is GPRS+ basically Feb 22 02:06:52 and is supported wherever GSM is Feb 22 02:06:54 i think usb 1/2 reason is that 2 requires more power (?) Feb 22 02:07:03 umts/hsdpa! Feb 22 02:07:52 My bad - EDGE has come to the UK. Feb 22 02:08:10 It requires upgraded software/hardware in the towers. Feb 22 02:08:32 hsdpa is a EDGEesque buzzword I came across @ broadcom's site. They seemed to have a pretty kick-as SoC GSM/phone chip. But again, it all boils down to "do you have the docs?" Well, here LaF0rge has them, so we're safe. ;) Feb 22 02:08:32 What about the EDGE in phones? Feb 22 02:09:06 * SpeedEvil is unsure. Feb 22 02:09:17 It'll require the GSM module to support EDGE I suppose. Feb 22 02:09:32 Which may or may not be a simple software upgrade. Feb 22 02:09:32 ok, lets barf on the edge/gsm topic and think of new ways to make a neo into a toy :) Feb 22 02:09:44 hmm Feb 22 02:10:02 it has vibrate mode, eh? Feb 22 02:10:04 I want those little 'carphone warehouse' legs on it. Feb 22 02:10:16 So it can run around after me if I forget it. Feb 22 02:10:26 alright so I guess even if I can't connect to the net with it always I guess I can always connect it to the computer to install new stuff on it, and use the phone/SMS and standard GSM features the rest of the time, right? Feb 22 02:10:27 i'm not a gamer, but the txtmob/mmporgoof thing is interesting. (i'm still thinkin last.fm + moko) Feb 22 02:10:29 It'd probably need a camera, to navigate bumps then. Feb 22 02:10:42 libervisco: yes. Feb 22 02:10:52 libervisco: through bluetooth or USB. Feb 22 02:11:01 yeah Feb 22 02:11:32 I've an IR receiver, so I'll use USB Feb 22 02:11:38 unless it can go over IR too.. Feb 22 02:11:41 No. Feb 22 02:11:44 No IR. Feb 22 02:11:46 (which I haven't managed to set up yet btw) Feb 22 02:11:48 libervisco, let's /assume/ we can connect to the 'net. And automatically. It's not there in P0, but it's 100% coming in future versions. Assuming you have good wifi, what can you do with a neo? Feb 22 02:12:12 surf the web, SSH to my machine from town? Feb 22 02:12:13 I think GPS + wifi is interesting. Feb 22 02:12:19 IRC? Feb 22 02:12:20 man lots of things Feb 22 02:12:23 bah, ya. duh. Feb 22 02:12:29 As the GPS gives you a nice absolutely defined timeslot. Feb 22 02:12:32 wow. i can now do IRC with dasher. Feb 22 02:12:53 Which means that you can have stuff like an encrypted tunnel. Feb 22 02:13:10 i can setup an ssl tunnel to the abyss Feb 22 02:13:20 That when you wake the radio up every 30s, and login to an AP, tells you you've got packets inbound. Feb 22 02:13:30 For very low power. Feb 22 02:13:32 but unfortunately looks like the first Neo wont be quite internet ready :\ Feb 22 02:14:04 no wifi, low GPRS (which are damn expensive).. not very good Feb 22 02:14:04 but whatever Feb 22 02:14:14 looks like neo's SoC doesn't support SDHC Feb 22 02:14:20 so no 4GB cards for us Feb 22 02:14:22 just 2GB Feb 22 02:14:34 libervisco, ya. But i really think we need to dream about the device assuming good net. Sure, the first 50 sent out to bootloader hackers doesn't autowifi... Nor will P1. But by the time this device is pimp for mainstream it will have wiif. That's obvious. Now that we know that, how should we make it work? Feb 22 02:15:19 yeah..... Feb 22 02:15:27 pjz :( Feb 22 02:15:33 how? hmm I know what I can do.. participate in popularizing it.. Feb 22 02:15:38 through my new site ;) Feb 22 02:15:47 That's a pity - 4G cards will likely hit before Sep. Feb 22 02:15:50 and open mobiles in general Feb 22 02:15:54 libervisco, yes. that's a natural approach for you. Feb 22 02:15:55 SpeedEvil: yeah Feb 22 02:16:05 I assume SDHC is for all SD cards >2G? Feb 22 02:16:06 SpeedEvil: I just looked up the SoC spec and the SDHC spec Feb 22 02:16:10 yeah Feb 22 02:16:15 SDHC is 4-32GB Feb 22 02:16:24 * SpeedEvil stabs stupid limits. Feb 22 02:16:33 One area where compactflash got it right. Feb 22 02:16:49 jebba, the drupal install is already here, but there's lots of work to do on the new site: http://www.mobiliberty.com/index.php?q=forum Feb 22 02:17:02 that forum gives general impression of what will it be though Feb 22 02:17:03 pjz: and you can't use it in the low-speed 'compatibility' mode? Feb 22 02:17:11 that I've forgotten the name of. Feb 22 02:17:12 — SD Memory Card Spec. (ver. 1.0) / MMC Spec. (2.11) compatible Feb 22 02:17:12 — SDIO Card Spec (ver. 1.0) compatible Feb 22 02:17:12 man, you're lucky I turned off my drupal=spam filter. Feb 22 02:17:24 that's what the SoC spec says Feb 22 02:17:38 libervisco, honestly it looks like more of the same old. Feb 22 02:18:15 jebba, what do you mean? Feb 22 02:18:24 i mean you're drupal install. Feb 22 02:18:32 bah :D Feb 22 02:18:33 ug, i don't want to see it again... Feb 22 02:18:37 drupal is just a base Feb 22 02:18:46 and can be made into anything Feb 22 02:18:55 jebba, both Nuxified and Libervis are drupal sites ;) Feb 22 02:19:00 ya, man, use plain .html files or something. Man, it's like seeing the same commercal 500x times. Feb 22 02:19:32 heh.. forums with plain html pages? Feb 22 02:19:39 database driven? Feb 22 02:20:00 you can't escape a CMS so easily if you want a dynamic site Feb 22 02:20:04 libervisco, take this with a bit of salt or something. I've liked your content I've read, but that same group of boxes + calendar and all that drupal / standard CMS shit is killing me. Feb 22 02:20:26 we've got no calendar anywhere :P Feb 22 02:20:32 but yeah I know what you mean Feb 22 02:20:51 well, you know what i mean. I hit your site and i think "default drupal install + 30 minutes" barf Feb 22 02:21:10 at least use emacs or vi ;) Feb 22 02:21:16 hehe Feb 22 02:21:31 that new site hasn't been customized at all yet Feb 22 02:21:45 it's just a default theme, not what we'll be using Feb 22 02:22:14 but you're in a good place to explain (not hype! advertise! spam!) openmoko. I'm thinking to the lwn.net crowd. Like if openmoko gets lwn.net's respect... well, that will be something quite nice indeed. Feb 22 02:22:52 i hope corbet writes the cam driver ;) Feb 22 02:30:49 * SpeedEvil goes off to look for info on SDHC and stuff. Feb 22 02:31:39 * jebba comes back with Petite Fleur Feb 22 02:48:37 SpeedEvil: so I went and looked and the answer is: maybe Feb 22 02:48:56 SpeedEvil: as in there might be no hardware diffs but some software ones (default blocksize) Feb 22 02:49:32 I wasn't finding much. Feb 22 02:49:40 Having net problems ATM. Feb 22 02:50:00 Do you mean that it's possible that 4G may work? Feb 22 02:50:05 >2 Feb 22 02:51:07 Fun. Feb 22 02:52:05 4G? Feb 22 02:53:36 4 gigabyte SD. Feb 22 02:57:39 yeah, it's difficult to tell. The SoC will do a 20 or 25MHz clock, and I see 4 pins in the GPIOs Feb 22 02:58:01 so, potentially 100Mb/s Feb 22 02:58:07 no possibility of faster Feb 22 02:58:11 but that might be fast enough **** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Feb 22 02:59:58 2007