**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Mar 01 02:59:57 2007 Mar 01 03:00:04 if you make that bigger than what potential thief would get by selling it as stolen, this it increases probability of getting it back Mar 01 03:00:06 as I understand it, JTAG is not easiely accessible w/o the debug board. So P1+ folks would be pretty screwed Mar 01 03:00:22 CoreDump|home: yup, so password protection should be optional Mar 01 03:00:56 and there should be warning that you must remember it or you risk bricking it Mar 01 03:01:28 CoreDump|home: that is the idea, make it as thief unfriendly as possible ;-) Mar 01 03:01:44 that is probably not acceptable for a commercial device. You have to protect the users before their own idiocy Mar 01 03:01:53 also if you keep security updates up to date, then no root shell either for script kiddies ;-) Mar 01 03:02:04 CoreDump|home: hide it ;-) Mar 01 03:02:34 CoreDump|home: also forgetting password doesn't really brick device, it just means you can't reflash/rekernel it Mar 01 03:02:52 actually, you can rekernel, but you can't recover from that Mar 01 03:03:11 and umm.. how many stupid users will set password and update to non working kernel? Mar 01 03:03:30 aloril: probably enough to worry OM / FIC =) Mar 01 03:03:34 so with u-boot password I mean: password for non default boot Mar 01 03:04:32 CoreDump|home: with iPod that reportedly happens often: users reflash arbitrary images from web and brick their device Mar 01 03:05:07 here you have additional possibility to recover: if no password: then dfu; else: password + dfu Mar 01 03:05:08 What do you have to do to get wi fi enabled on Neo device, plug in powered hub and usb wi fi stick and ensure driver is loaded into the kernel? Mar 01 03:05:29 darmou: for P0/P1 device: yeah Mar 01 03:06:05 some future device: it will be included, earliest possible date for version like that is June, latest date sometime 2008 Mar 01 03:06:09 aloril sorry what is P0/P1 device? Mar 01 03:06:16 counter? Mar 01 03:06:16 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; 3 days 08:18:57 (3.346 +-2.0 days) for devices for selected developers (2007-03-03); a month (25.346 +-10.0 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-25); 7 months (199.346 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (433) Mar 01 03:06:22 ah you mean origonal Neo ? Mar 01 03:06:28 counter Mar 01 03:06:28 P0: 3 days 08:18:44 (3.346 +-2.0 days); P1: 25.346 +-10.0 (see faq) (434) Mar 01 03:06:42 ok thanks aloril Mar 01 03:08:26 with having ssh access to stolen device you could turn microphone on, though this is probably illegal in many countries Mar 01 03:08:54 also this gives new espionage idea: "lose" phone near company you want to spy on and then listen ... Mar 01 03:12:57 about that reasonably high finder fee: if somebody stole it on purpose (broke in to your car for example), then you can wait with police ;-) Mar 01 03:13:27 however, if you lose it accidentally, then there are 2 modes: person wants to return | person wants to thief Mar 01 03:13:52 high finder fee would probably convert many second kind of person to first kind Mar 01 03:14:02 darmou: the hub has to accept totally non-powered hosts, some don't. In that case, you will need a special cable, and some source of power (the hub may also provide this). Mar 01 03:14:10 especially if finders fee is higher than thief can get for selling it Mar 01 03:14:41 I've considered something like this - with a built in registry number. Mar 01 03:14:46 Based on the IMEI. Mar 01 03:15:14 You get an account on fic.com (or somewhere) when you get the phone. Mar 01 03:15:35 You then login, and can supply details as to how to get the phone back to you. Mar 01 03:15:58 There are 'I sold the phone to' 'I am selling the phone' 'I lost the phone' options. Mar 01 03:16:25 You don't buy a phone that is not in the 'I am selling the phone' state. Mar 01 03:18:17 On the 'user bricks phone' option - the option of 'signed kernels only from FIC' unless you login to the same account and disable may be an interesting one. Mar 01 03:18:34 Or supply the previously supplied 'unlock' key. Mar 01 03:19:06 yeah, good idea Mar 01 03:20:39 The account 'URL' would be printed on the phone - and lead to contact details. Maybe under the battery cover. Mar 01 03:21:10 thief would remove that though Mar 01 03:21:35 how many thiefs have access to JTAG? Mar 01 03:21:38 On another topic: http://rapidshare.com/files/18781887/rect.avi - 66M talk, with visible text, and zommed on the screen. Mar 01 03:21:46 the thief would remove the URL. Mar 01 03:21:53 (either themselves or know somebody with one?) Mar 01 03:22:10 It's not for the theif though, as it doesn't really help them - the account number is based on the IMEI. Mar 01 03:22:29 And can be gotten to if you have the phone (in a read-only way) Mar 01 03:23:04 with the details you supply ("email neo58858@yahoo.com, or "contact police station at ....") Mar 01 03:23:39 It's for people considering buying the phone Mar 01 03:24:37 For example, if there is no URL, or if the account page says "some bastard stole my phone", then... If the status is "I'm selling my phone", then you've got more reason to be not so worried about the purchase. Mar 01 03:25:02 SpeedEvil: what's that video? Mar 01 03:25:26 It's the 350M talk, with the screen zoomed, rectangularised, denoised - and a bit to the right of the screen too. Mar 01 03:25:47 And the text is _almost_ as readable as the base 350M one. Mar 01 03:26:14 btw.. you can make phone call out in thief mode even without SIM: to emergency number ;-) Mar 01 03:26:23 Not in the UK. Mar 01 03:26:34 BASTARDS. Mar 01 03:27:13 however, I think this should need some hacking so that user forgetting to insert their SIM doesn't bring police to ask about stolen phone ;-) Mar 01 03:27:43 or it needs deliberate enabling after it has been stolen Mar 01 03:28:27 The option for the phone to ping its 'account' daily, for 'I've been stolen' if you don't login to it, and it's not where it usually is (GPS) over a period of a day is another one. Mar 01 03:29:02 lost/stolen, lost, or stolen, on reflection, as they are different cases. Mar 01 03:29:56 I think you should assume its lost by default, not stolen Mar 01 03:30:46 SpeedEvil: you can't call emergency in UK without SIM? in Finland you can, I think its in law that requirement Mar 01 03:31:00 No, I mean the phone pings the account if it thinks it might be lost or stolen (not in a known location for 1 day, no familiar BT nodes, ...) then it pings the 'account' to check to see if the user has set a status. Mar 01 03:31:17 No, you can't. Mar 01 03:31:41 It just says 'no network' or somethign, after 'attempting emergency call'. Mar 01 03:32:33 in Finland requirements are actually too stringent: you must be able to call emergency even when keyboard is locked! Mar 01 03:32:44 this leads to many emergency calls from pockets :-( Mar 01 03:33:20 I mean.. whats is the problem pressing 2 extra buttons (which device clearly tells you to do) and then dial emergency? Mar 01 03:33:56 Injured/blind/someone elses phone/... Mar 01 03:34:08 (device tells: press "Open" to unlock keyboard and once you press it it says press "*") Mar 01 03:34:14 I agree, on the balance of probabilities. Mar 01 03:34:20 blind I can see, but other cases don't hold Mar 01 03:34:35 why not the someone elses phone with PIN set case? Mar 01 03:34:46 ie.. if you can read, then you know how to unlock ;-) Mar 01 03:35:19 umm.. unlocking phone does not ask PIN, it just asks you to press "Open" and then "*" buttons (clearly told on screen) Mar 01 03:35:35 and you can dial emergency when it asks PIN Mar 01 03:36:23 so.. I think cases where you aren't able to press 2 keys to unlock keyboard (keys which are told on screen) and still need to dial emergency are quite rate Mar 01 03:36:52 however, pocket 112 dialing is common, something like 10% (or was it even 30%) of emergency calls are those :-( Mar 01 03:37:37 hmm.. actually that 'lost' screen should also have "dial emergency" button in it Mar 01 03:38:09 Hmm. Mar 01 03:38:19 An emergency call app may not be a bad idea. Mar 01 03:38:46 I think there is separate button for that, but finder probably doesn't know about it ;-) Mar 01 03:38:53 Send SMSs to predetermined locations, with a couple of second voice clip. Mar 01 03:39:14 along with GPS, with a button on the screen 'say GPS position' Mar 01 03:39:56 power button + emergency button AIUI Mar 01 03:40:45 and easy way to enable speaker mode from emergency center (press 1 to enable speaker mode) Mar 01 03:41:04 actually, there could be emergency mode that you could enable: Mar 01 03:41:31 press this button every 15 minutes or it calls emergency with prerecorded message Mar 01 03:42:07 (if you feel bad and are not sure if its actually dangerous, but fear you might lose unconsciousness) Mar 01 03:42:16 s/un/un Mar 01 03:42:43 And squeal loudly if you lose GSM coverage. Mar 01 03:43:22 I'm writing up the account idea (lost/stolen/...) in the wiki [[My Account]] (empty ATM) Mar 01 04:01:16 list of P0 hardware bugs: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv3 Mar 01 04:02:40 SpeedEvil: you might be interested in P1 hardware changes too Mar 01 04:02:47 (I guess you have seen those already) Mar 01 04:04:59 I tend to watch recent changes. Just occasionally :) Mar 01 04:05:09 Currently editing though. Mar 01 04:07:27 * aloril wonders if P0 recipients need to pay customs? Mar 01 04:11:53 * aloril guesses that depends on country, in some not, in some better just do that ... Mar 01 04:17:58 some extra hidden battery: when thief removes battery, "Hey, you removed battery, please insert it back again!" "Oh and while you are at it, please plug to USB too..." Mar 01 04:18:15 would probably spook a thief ;-) Mar 01 04:19:01 Well - beat on [[My Account]] maybe. (when up) Mar 01 04:21:12 ( http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Tracking_lost_phone page is related page, which you know of course) Mar 01 04:34:07 * aloril actually dreamed last night about tracking thief and informing police where its periodically and recovering it ;-) Mar 01 04:35:14 It's related, I'm not going to tie the two together myself. Mar 01 04:38:55 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/My_Account - now upo. Mar 01 04:40:09 * SpeedEvil hugs HaraldWelte. Mar 01 04:40:25 I2C and GPIO on solderable pads is nice. Mar 01 04:40:33 Connector would be nicer, but... Mar 01 04:41:55 woohoo: "Add I2C, SPI and one irq and wakeup capable GPIO pin to debug port plus have test pads for all these signals (for soldering wires directly on the pcb)" Mar 01 04:42:17 oh, SpeedEvil saw it too :-) Mar 01 04:43:09 :) Mar 01 04:43:19 P0 - that's a horrible bug. Mar 01 04:43:30 (no suspend to RAM and nice wakeup) Mar 01 04:44:19 yeah, this means P0 is really P0 and not resalable (still would probably fetch nice price at ebay (and be bad form of course)) Mar 01 04:44:58 Well... Mar 01 04:45:15 SpeedEvil: maybe add {{Wishlist}} tag to top (which would be removed if FIC actually implements it)? Mar 01 04:45:39 Even with all the bugs, in idle mode - at 80mW, you're still looking at battery life of a day. Mar 01 04:45:47 and yeah, I agree its separate item from recovering lost phone Mar 01 04:45:51 For daily charging, it's still a useful device. Mar 01 04:46:12 SpeedEvil: yeah, but resale value is significantly lower still ;-) Mar 01 04:46:25 It could - in principle - for example, make it easier and safer to sell on ebay. (my account) Mar 01 04:46:53 if I use CPU as heavily as I suspect it would not matter for me, I need to charge it several times/day anyway (thus external AA's for charging) Mar 01 04:47:17 I'm not convinced on AAs. Mar 01 04:47:25 I think a couple of spare bats may be easier. Mar 01 04:47:38 that means rebooting? Mar 01 04:47:48 True, I suppose. Mar 01 04:48:14 that alone means AA's are worth of it for me ;-) Mar 01 04:49:57 I wish they'd picked up my idea for an actual connector for I2C/USB internally. Mar 01 04:49:59 hmm... belt cradle with USB socket that would charge it from belt battery (at least 10Ah, maybe 20Ah) Mar 01 04:50:11 That'd have made user-add-ons a lot easier. Mar 01 04:50:15 SpeedEvil: space? Mar 01 04:50:20 Well... Mar 01 04:50:33 There is some space next to the battery, if you look at the mouldings. Mar 01 04:52:17 hmm.. no USB socket, that is too cumbersome, something that needs less accuracy Mar 01 04:53:11 (like just plates with enough distance between poles) Mar 01 04:53:15 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 - the empty case frame - just next to the vibrator motor, between that and the battery connector is some space. Mar 01 04:53:24 I wasn't meaning a USB socket. Mar 01 04:54:23 Just a connector, with battery + USB d+ and d-, 3*I2C, and a couple of grounds. Mar 01 04:54:34 8-10 pins. Mar 01 04:56:35 "no USB socket" was refering to earlier "belt cradle" comment Mar 01 05:02:06 Oh. Mar 01 05:05:14 plates would mean less wear on USB socket too: having cable connected might eventually make solder points lose Mar 01 05:05:43 if there is some weakness on Neo1973, I will probably discover it, I have that tendency ;-) Mar 01 05:08:46 Yeah - that was one idea I was having for [[expansion back]] Mar 01 05:09:18 The needed connector would only be around $.25 per. Mar 01 05:09:18 Oh well. Mar 01 07:04:09 openmoko: 03caowai_song * r1169 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-keyboard/layouts/ (10 files): Add different config file of each keyboard. Mar 01 07:09:01 random blog: http://www.personalbee.com/215/10617285 Mar 01 07:10:48 It's nice to see that OpenMoko is getting more and more known Mar 01 07:11:02 another set of picks with OLPC and Neo1973: http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/freesoftware/20070228-00.html Mar 01 07:11:08 The name is unlike anything else, and easy to remember :) Mar 01 07:11:13 s/picks/pics Mar 01 07:12:11 uups, http://mako.cc/copyrighteous/freesoftware/20070228-00 Mar 01 07:12:39 (ah, nb, it works with .html too ;-) Mar 01 07:15:46 s/nb/np Mar 01 07:17:12 * aloril is surprised that /. has not yet covered *.openmoko.org, maybe somebody asked then to delay /.:ing? Mar 01 07:17:44 aloril: perhaps it's better to wait until there are devices out Mar 01 07:17:48 how many people have the device in this channel ? :) Mar 01 07:19:35 openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1170 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/ (5 files in 2 dirs): convert to matchbox-panel-2 Mar 01 07:20:23 * dilinger raises his hand Mar 01 07:20:58 bluelightning: yeah or building source code is easier Mar 01 07:21:00 i don't know what mako did to the colors in that image, but that's my hand in the picture (holding the openmoko) Mar 01 07:25:40 google offers openmg when you search on {news,blogsearch}.google.com (OpenMG is DRM method) Mar 01 07:25:57 could consider that as insult ;-) Mar 01 07:34:30 dilinger: Cool. How come you have one already? :) Mar 01 07:35:44 CM: right place, right time? Mar 01 07:37:04 Tried to update the flash image or anything yet? Mar 01 07:53:41 * nm xchm mschuoi: Mar 01 08:32:13 http://www.fukung.net/v/2806/phonead.jpg Mar 01 08:32:49 2,5 Mar 01 08:33:10 cute Mar 01 08:33:33 xkr47: :] Mar 01 08:36:31 * koen reads the errata on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware Mar 01 08:36:56 It's amazing how open FIC is about those Mar 01 08:37:56 Yeah, it is amazing. It shouldn't be; it should be industry standard. They're brave :) Mar 01 08:38:06 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1171 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/ (25 files in 2 dirs): solved history window treeview problem,updated some png files,removed some bugs. Mar 01 08:38:14 "Add I2C, SPI and one irq and wakeup capable GPIO pin to debug port plus have test pads for all these signals (for soldering wires directly on the pcb)" Mar 01 08:38:44 anyone have a SPI wifi chip? Mar 01 08:39:08 I have some tortilla chips Mar 01 08:47:34 koen_: looks good indeed Mar 01 08:51:21 koen: marvell 8385 can do SPI iirc Mar 01 08:54:23 so those are the software/hardware problems om the p0 devices... Mar 01 08:54:48 are all these problems solvable by upgrading firmware? ... Mar 01 08:55:22 * xkr47 wonders if sidetone can be turned off Mar 01 08:55:29 (at request) Mar 01 08:56:05 completely off? Mar 01 08:56:39 why would you want that? :S Mar 01 08:56:47 yeah, or adjusted between on and off in say levels 0-10 Mar 01 08:57:05 well for teleconferencing perhaps? Mar 01 08:57:44 it should just be software adjustable... Mar 01 08:58:10 well it's in the gsm part, so it might not be.. Mar 01 08:58:12 the mic and earpiece have the codec between them and the GSM module right? Mar 01 08:58:29 * xkr47 doesn't know if at commands have any commands for that Mar 01 09:07:08 LuitvD: the wiki page I linked to specifies what can be solved in software/firmware/hardware Mar 01 09:07:45 koen: well... not really what I really wanted to ask... can the gsm firmware be flashed at home? Mar 01 09:07:56 yes Mar 01 09:07:58 via the headphone socket Mar 01 09:09:12 ah... Mar 01 09:09:18 that's odd... Mar 01 09:09:20 :) Mar 01 09:11:28 koen: what kind of programming protocol? ... Mar 01 09:11:38 no idea Mar 01 09:11:44 okay Mar 01 09:11:48 and I don't think they'll give us the flasher + blob Mar 01 09:18:56 did someone download the pdf and have a mirror? Mar 01 09:19:15 i can offer a mirror too, since the main site seems to be rather slow Mar 01 09:24:53 which pdf? Mar 01 09:25:02 the one i got an e-mail link for Mar 01 09:25:19 this one: http://www.openmoko.com/files/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf Mar 01 09:25:19 fosdem slides Mar 01 09:25:41 can't download it Mar 01 09:26:46 openmoko: 03werner * r1172 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (11 files): Mar 01 09:26:46 openmoko: Next iteration. Stage 0 and stage 1 should work. Documentation is still Mar 01 09:26:46 openmoko: incomplete. Needs OpenOCD delay patch. Mar 01 09:27:03 love the name of that tool. Mar 01 09:27:13 yeah Mar 01 09:29:48 3Kbytes/sec downloading that pdf :-) Mar 01 09:30:18 that's why i'm asking if someone has it so i could mirror it Mar 01 09:30:19 guaqua: i can wget it, try it too Mar 01 09:30:34 getting 30 kb/s now Mar 01 09:30:39 45... Mar 01 09:30:48 ~25% done Mar 01 09:33:44 http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/openmoko/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf Mar 01 09:34:21 koen, Much faster :-) Mar 01 09:35:15 Thanks so much koen! Mar 01 09:35:28 it suddenly jumped to 2MB/s Mar 01 09:36:12 full pipe here Mar 01 09:36:17 * CM adds to the load Mar 01 09:37:20 Wow, I really don't understand any of these analogies. They want to be God, and use amino acids to build phones, except for the Big Fleas getting in the way. Mar 01 09:37:29 Do I have that right? O_o Mar 01 09:37:50 mirrors: http://users.tkk.fi/~aeh/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf and http://www.a3h.net/~gua/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf Mar 01 09:38:00 Syg: i'd guess so ;) Mar 01 09:41:31 Syg: they want us to damage the buildingblocks and create crazy forms Mar 01 09:46:25 I imagine a future of grotesquely mutated organic cellphones. Mar 01 09:46:49 ... awesome! Mar 01 09:48:19 There was a (private) question about a Finnish channel; I've started, experimentally, #openmoko-fi for Finnish discussion. FYI. Mar 01 09:48:43 Perkele! ;) Mar 01 09:49:48 hi Mar 01 09:50:09 where can i submit new projects for openmoko ? Mar 01 09:50:21 sumasuma: projects.openmoko.org Mar 01 09:50:41 stefan_schmidt: thanks Mar 01 09:51:42 hum openmoko org is reaaaaly slow? Mar 01 09:52:01 oh wait thats .com Mar 01 09:52:14 anyone got a mirror of that presentation? Mar 01 09:52:27 HI people. Mar 01 09:52:34 buz: scroll up Mar 01 09:53:15 oh Mar 01 09:53:21 dont even need to scroll ;) Mar 01 10:01:44 counter Mar 01 10:01:44 P0: 3 days 01:23:26 (3.058 +-2.0 days); P1: 25.058 +-10.0 (see faq) (435) Mar 01 10:10:20 i still dont get why the feed reader would be a stylus app Mar 01 10:10:38 So you can stab feeds you don't like? Mar 01 10:13:09 i could still poke them in the eye with my finger Mar 01 10:13:26 Or if you can find a handy one, with a stick. Mar 01 10:15:57 reading feeds would seem to be a mostly non input based activity Mar 01 10:16:05 Yeah. Mar 01 10:16:15 I have that comment about some other things. Mar 01 10:16:38 one that would GREATLY benefit from p900 ingenious multi dimensional scrollwheel, btw Mar 01 10:16:41 some of them could pretty much do with the scrollwheel, and stab the window to Mar 01 10:16:49 hehe Mar 01 10:16:52 buz, SpeedEvil: please send such feedback to one of the mailinglists Mar 01 10:16:58 click Mar 01 10:17:11 yeah. Mar 01 10:17:15 i think i actually did Mar 01 10:17:21 at some point Mar 01 10:18:14 SpeedEvil: Do you ever sleep btw? There's comments from all hours of the day from you on here ;) Mar 01 10:22:53 I have unfortunately unreliable sleep patterns. Mar 01 10:29:32 SpeedEvil, but you always wake up ?-) Mar 01 10:30:48 Have so far. Mar 01 10:31:39 99.996% reliable automatic wakeup Mar 01 10:35:09 I'm going for 99.999. Mar 01 10:35:28 pretty good SLA Mar 01 10:39:25 SpeedEvil, either you wake up 4 times a day until you're 70 or then you'll live til 280 and wake up once a day :) Mar 01 10:40:42 I hear scientists had good results with electroshocks on dogs Mar 01 10:40:53 maybe wire the Neo for such usage? Mar 01 10:41:40 install bluetooth receiver in dog brains ?-) Mar 01 10:42:24 I'd say just add a fine electrifiable mesh to the neo casing Mar 01 11:00:51 does anyone here crimp their own cat6 cables? I'm wondering if there's anything very different from doing cat5 ones Mar 01 11:05:14 Stephmw: I only use cat5... what's so special about cat6? Mar 01 11:05:20 better data rate? Mar 01 11:05:36 Nah Mar 01 11:05:40 shielding Mar 01 11:05:53 and having actually all 8 wires connected Mar 01 11:05:56 better then FTP cable? Mar 01 11:06:04 Tbh you'd have to be doing pretty insane stuff to need the shielding Mar 01 11:06:14 Cat5 is quite happy even outdoors Mar 01 11:06:24 benJIman: think the other way Mar 01 11:06:28 gbit runs quite happy over my cat5 cables as well Mar 01 11:06:45 and you can do 2 on one cable with cat5 Mar 01 11:06:45 benJIman: imagine a sensitive application with a base frequency at 100Mhz or 1Ghz Mar 01 11:06:56 with cables running near it Mar 01 11:07:00 koen: cat5e usually have 8 wires too Mar 01 11:07:13 hrw: only half are used Mar 01 11:07:29 benJIman: depends on cards used Mar 01 11:07:51 benJIman: 100TX4 use all pairs Mar 01 11:07:52 cat6 is better specified than cat5. Mar 01 11:08:00 ah yes Mar 01 11:08:04 and cat5e Mar 01 11:08:13 it has more exacting specifications in many ways. Mar 01 11:08:28 like better shielding Mar 01 11:08:55 Pretty soon, if you don't have shielding, the cable will start to glow :) Mar 01 11:09:07 the wires are thicker too arent they ? Mar 01 11:09:30 benJIman: 100TX4 are rare cards as 100TX are able to work on 2 pairs Mar 01 11:09:40 coax ftw Mar 01 11:10:07 lol, there's an AWACS flying around over my house Mar 01 11:10:46 * SpeedEvil waits for the earth-shattering-kaboom. Mar 01 11:11:56 :) Mar 01 11:12:14 of what? Mar 01 11:12:32 of this? http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Image:Awacscrash.jpg Mar 01 11:12:34 Precision guided munitions. Mar 01 11:14:20 yeah sure... fired by the NATO? on dutch soil? Mar 01 11:14:22 :P Mar 01 11:14:38 why would the NATO want to bomb utrecht :) Mar 01 11:16:37 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Marvin_the_martian Mar 01 11:17:00 To clear the view to venus of course. Mar 01 11:17:04 :P Mar 01 11:17:22 calendar looks a bit funny: http://scap.linuxtogo.org/files/31412a884e75fc053ba706378ea06712.png Mar 01 11:17:23 marvin is flying this awacs plane? Mar 01 11:17:24 :) Mar 01 11:17:46 koen: broken image? :P Mar 01 11:18:06 koen: and there will be no tomorrow? :P Mar 01 11:18:18 or wait... that was yesterday :P Mar 01 11:21:33 * LuitvD starts reading PIC18F2331/2431/4331/4431 Data Sheet Chapter 20.0 Mar 01 11:21:49 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=223 Mar 01 11:22:45 if thos keeps fixing bugs as fast as always PIM might be actually useable when we get our p0 phones Mar 01 11:22:47 koen: does it show only monday tuesday and wednesday, or does it only show the days until the current day? Mar 01 11:23:09 LuitvD[foo]: I had the exact same view yesterday Mar 01 11:23:18 :P Mar 01 11:23:33 koen: is it me, or is wednesday highlighted? Mar 01 11:23:48 it is Mar 01 11:23:54 koen: even though it's thursday? Mar 01 11:24:16 I'm starting to like the openmoko look more and more Mar 01 11:24:23 :) Mar 01 11:26:39 * LuitvD[foo] starts rewiring his robot Mar 01 11:26:43 :( Mar 01 11:28:27 LuitvD[foo]: I'm moving my home lan to GigE, my existing cat5 can't sustain it Mar 01 11:29:12 Stephmw: hmm... what's the max distance? Mar 01 11:29:23 LuitvD[foo]: 100m iirc Mar 01 11:29:46 aha.. 90m Mar 01 11:29:49 I mean the max distance you'll need in your house... Mar 01 11:29:49 I think that's for 100M, isn't gigE smaller? Mar 01 11:29:51 oh Mar 01 11:29:58 oh, right Mar 01 11:30:01 no longer than 25m Mar 01 11:31:00 Stephmw: that's odd... my cat5 unshielded cable seems to do fine at 30m... Mar 01 11:31:20 LuitvD[foo]: at 1000TX? Mar 01 11:31:35 at gigabit speed, yes Mar 01 11:31:49 LuitvD[foo]: I do have to share conduits with lots of other cables, power included Mar 01 11:57:43 <|Lupin|> Hi Mar 01 12:20:00 I see they're now adding erratas till we decide that P0 is not worth buying on ebay :) Mar 01 12:21:03 openmoko: 03werner * r1173 10/developers/werner/openocd-wait-patiently.patch: Mar 01 12:21:03 openmoko: src/target/target.c (handle_wait_halt_command): let user override the default Mar 01 12:21:03 openmoko: maximum delay of 5 seconds Mar 01 12:23:09 openmoko: 03werner * r1174 10/developers/werner/notes/openocd: Added application of openocd-wait-patiently.patch Mar 01 12:25:35 what's openocd? Mar 01 12:25:58 On Chip Debugger Mar 01 12:26:05 vmaster's brainchild Mar 01 12:27:30 LuitvD[foo]: He software part to JTAG Mar 01 12:27:55 "Due to an error in the production process, the factory-programmed NAND bad block information has been lost. This means that some blocks in the flash will wear out rapidly, which might become as bad as rendering the device unusable." Mar 01 12:28:42 I don't see why. Mar 01 12:28:54 It will cause excessive early bad blocks. Mar 01 12:29:13 Ah. Mar 01 12:29:34 Unless you've got JTAG, you may not be able to recover from a bad block early enough in the process. Mar 01 12:29:51 what, did the GTA01-Bv3 get bad NAND? Mar 01 12:29:56 No. Mar 01 12:30:03 All nand comes with bad blocks. Mar 01 12:30:08 hmm... Mar 01 12:30:13 Some mapped at the factory. Mar 01 12:30:36 It also develops bad blocks - and there is a proper strategy to handle ones that develop in use. Mar 01 12:31:02 There is enough margin, so that at 100K cycles, it's supposed to be at the 'nominal' figure - 64M Mar 01 12:46:02 counter Mar 01 12:46:02 P0: 2 days 22:39:08 (2.944 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.944 +-10.0 (see faq) (436) Mar 01 12:46:34 LuitvD[foo]: Is this your robot? http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/robots/robot-sex-its-here-240486.php Mar 01 12:46:44 heheheh Mar 01 12:46:49 nope Mar 01 12:46:58 Had to ask.. ;) Mar 01 12:47:03 I'm glad it's not :) Mar 01 12:47:32 Hilarious video [SFW!] Mar 01 12:47:41 openmoko: 03werner * r1175 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (README environment.in openocd.in): Mar 01 12:47:41 openmoko: environment.in: corrected file name in header Mar 01 12:47:41 openmoko: openocd.in: use new "wait_halt []" Mar 01 12:47:41 openmoko: README: added prerequisites and miscellaneous text Mar 01 12:48:38 CM: that robot is fun :) Mar 01 12:48:51 and the program is even nicer :P Mar 01 12:49:35 that thing is full of servo's Mar 01 12:50:26 my robot only has 2 gear motors :( Mar 01 12:54:36 hehe: "You can't join that many channels" Mar 01 12:55:29 on what? Mar 01 12:55:30 (20 is limit) Mar 01 12:55:34 lol Mar 01 12:55:37 on freenode server Mar 01 12:55:51 that's a lot... Mar 01 12:56:04 well... not for a bot... but for a person... :P Mar 01 12:59:07 hmm Mar 01 12:59:23 I hope the neo arrives in time to take it to the bossa conference Mar 01 12:59:39 LuitvD: do you think that is a real robot? or more of a stop motion stunt Mar 01 12:59:52 buz: it's real Mar 01 13:00:01 impressive Mar 01 13:00:17 buz: it's a very cool robot, with about 20 mini-servo's Mar 01 13:00:24 now make it life size and give it a girl skin Mar 01 13:00:29 heheheh Mar 01 13:00:51 I like the flexing muscles poses Mar 01 13:00:59 openmoko: 03laforge * r1176 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files): Mar 01 13:00:59 openmoko: * introduce Hardware ECC support for the S3C2410 NAND driver Mar 01 13:00:59 openmoko: ** big speedup compared to software ECC Mar 01 13:00:59 openmoko: ** detects single and multi-bit errors Mar 01 13:00:59 openmoko: ** doesn't correct 1-bit errors yet Mar 01 13:01:00 openmoko: * enable hardware ECC in the neo1973 config Mar 01 13:01:02 openmoko: * add a patch to really mark bad blocks as bad Mar 01 13:01:08 And showing his bling-bling ;) Mar 01 13:01:45 yeah :) Mar 01 13:03:11 CM: most robot-tournaments host a tournament for those bots too :) Mar 01 13:03:39 CM: fights between bots like that look like american wrestling :) Mar 01 13:03:48 I've seen some of those Mar 01 13:04:01 One live fight in a store in Tokyo Mar 01 13:04:12 you know how much they cost? Mar 01 13:04:16 nope Mar 01 13:04:21 must be a bitch to control Mar 01 13:04:43 I don't know that model, but the ones I saw was between 1-2000 USD Mar 01 13:04:58 And they were pretty small (1000-2000 of course..) Mar 01 13:05:01 with an object oriented programming language it should be quite easy Mar 01 13:05:35 robot.fight() Mar 01 13:05:46 robot.fight(dirty) Mar 01 13:06:25 :) Mar 01 13:06:41 if he can bring beer, i might buy one Mar 01 13:06:45 heheheh Mar 01 13:06:54 it might even be able to do that... Mar 01 13:07:17 anyways, my robot is an inverted pendulum robot Mar 01 13:07:27 well somehow i dont see it putting beer on the table Mar 01 13:07:32 like this one, only smaller: http://www.geology.smu.edu/~dpa-www/robo/nbot/ Mar 01 13:08:12 buz: if you drop a step-ladder it might be able to climb up... Mar 01 13:08:34 lol Mar 01 13:09:11 drag a can of beer to the table, put a rope around it, climb up with the other end of the rope, and finally pull it up to the tabletop :) Mar 01 13:10:00 iiieeew canned beer Mar 01 13:10:10 i was more thinking of bottles then pouring it perfectly Mar 01 13:10:21 :) Mar 01 13:10:44 "You can add events by double clicking in the calendar area." Mar 01 13:10:51 that's not intuitive Mar 01 13:11:00 koen: not? Mar 01 13:11:10 not on a touchscreen Mar 01 13:11:16 koen: then what is? dragging a range? Mar 01 13:11:23 tap or tap&hold is intuitive Mar 01 13:11:31 or like you say, dragging a range Mar 01 13:11:37 :) Mar 01 13:11:42 double click on a touchscreen is weird Mar 01 13:11:58 in weekview it can be quite hard to drag a precise range though... Mar 01 13:11:59 i guess Mar 01 13:12:02 i thought we pretty much did away with doubleclicking anyway Mar 01 13:12:12 buz: I hoped so as well Mar 01 13:12:15 openmoko: 03laforge * r1177 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-mokoversion.patch: increase to 'moko5' for hwecc changes Mar 01 13:12:28 buz: the o-hand people doing the PIM don't seem to agree, though Mar 01 13:12:44 shouldnt be that hard to change? Mar 01 13:13:02 openmoko: 03laforge * r1178 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/ (defconfig-2.6.20-fic-gta01 defconfig-2.6.20.1-fic-gta01): Mar 01 13:13:02 openmoko: * add hardware ECC support Mar 01 13:13:02 openmoko: * increase version to -moko8 Mar 01 13:13:02 openmoko: WARNING: Kernels >= moko8 are incompatible with uboot < moko5 Mar 01 13:13:08 i can see doubleclicking to create events in some ical like desktop app, maybe Mar 01 13:14:06 buz: add your thoughts to http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=222 Mar 01 13:14:43 I don't think the filter menu should filter for 'day' 'week' or 'month', but filter categories Mar 01 13:14:57 like "study" "work" , etc Mar 01 13:16:01 damn, I hate my chip's A/D converters Mar 01 13:16:01 I'm not convinced of that.. Mar 01 13:16:14 I'd rather see week or month Mar 01 13:17:14 Email sent to: thomas@openedhand.com, koen@openembedded.org

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Mar 01 13:17:23 bugzilla itself is kinda broken it seems Mar 01 13:17:27 where do i file meta bugs ;) Mar 01 13:17:33 bugzilla.org? :P Mar 01 13:18:21 it took me 2 weeks + bugzilla comment to figure out how to add events Mar 01 13:19:15 Cool - http://www.eetimes.com/news/latest/showArticle.jhtml?articleID=197008416 one of the electronics industry papers. Mar 01 13:20:14 Though only in passing. Mar 01 13:20:18 "At issue is U.S. carriers' practice of restricting their networks to approved handsets and applications sold by the carriers themselves" Mar 01 13:20:22 i still think thats wrong Mar 01 13:20:25 its true for cdma Mar 01 13:20:31 but there its kinda obvious why Mar 01 13:20:52 plus nobody forces you to go cdma Mar 01 13:21:41 anyway, i cant see skype working with current pingtimes in umts Mar 01 13:22:17 err? Mar 01 13:22:27 what are the pingtimes like? Mar 01 13:23:52 i've done lots of skypeing over gprs Mar 01 13:24:32 With good results? Mar 01 13:24:43 though granted, for skype to achieve the critical call quality to make it standard the connection needs to be better Mar 01 13:24:50 SpeedEvil: it workds Mar 01 13:25:01 Well? Or bearably. Mar 01 13:25:25 it works Mar 01 13:25:32 not bearably and not well Mar 01 13:25:39 Ah. Mar 01 13:25:53 I think pish to talk is probably about the limit. Mar 01 13:26:00 Err - push :) Mar 01 13:26:02 sometimes it clips the sound, but it's usable Mar 01 13:26:37 and thinking - if i can get unlimited calling and data for 10 euros a month...it's good enough deal :) Mar 01 13:27:12 That's nice. Here it's more like e50 Mar 01 13:27:35 where is your here? Mar 01 13:27:42 UK Mar 01 13:28:05 figured ;) Mar 01 13:28:26 yeah, all of us in the UK are getting royally screwed Mar 01 13:28:50 * aloril thinks that "guaranteed order of packets" for GPRS, UMTS, etc.. was error Mar 01 13:28:50 SpeedEvil - BTW: You also saw the errata in the wiki. Did anyone mention specifics of the gsm firmware update? Mar 01 13:29:02 no. Mar 01 13:29:12 It's a factory thing AIUI. Mar 01 13:29:17 why implement TCP twice and shoot UDP to foot? Mar 01 13:29:25 iirc sean said FIC can't hand out the firmware due to NDAs Mar 01 13:29:31 SpeedEvil: i'm in the impression it's the situation there. broadband, computer price and mobile price-wise :) Mar 01 13:29:34 they won't/can't let users flash. Mar 01 13:30:02 So all the people already having a phone are screwed. ;) Mar 01 13:30:18 Broadband is the problem of BT - they charge ISPs about 1 euro per gigabyte of transfer to the users. Mar 01 13:30:21 s/screwed/"screwed" ;) Mar 01 13:30:37 So, unsurprisingly, they introduce quotas/capping/shaping. Mar 01 13:31:04 As otherwise someone maxing out an 8M line can wipe out the profits from many hundred users. Mar 01 13:31:20 does BT charge also when the other ISP:s provide their own fiber to the DSLAMs? Mar 01 13:31:29 No. Mar 01 13:31:32 Elrond: yes Mar 01 13:31:34 okay Mar 01 13:31:51 Elrond: one of the reasons why p0 people get to choose when they want to get their phone Mar 01 13:32:01 i think the finnish law states against that kind of deals to customers Mar 01 13:32:10 here all the connections are unlimited Mar 01 13:32:13 However, that's moderately expensive to do too. 'LLU' exchanges are of course only in populated areas though. Mar 01 13:32:21 koen - Ahh, they have an option to say "Now?" :) Mar 01 13:32:44 Most people outside cities, BT provides the virtual circuit back to the NOC. Mar 01 13:32:54 yeah Mar 01 13:33:09 SpeedEvil - sounds much like the same fun in .de ;) Mar 01 13:33:14 so the ISP:s are basically virtual operators Mar 01 13:33:28 virtual operators of the existing phone network Mar 01 13:33:40 Apart from those exchanges where it's worthwhile putting in their own kit, yues. Mar 01 13:34:01 Elrond: where "now" read "20070305", yes Mar 01 13:34:18 you'd just need more government regulation to the prices Mar 01 13:34:24 it's pretty much the only way Mar 01 13:35:18 koen - 0305 equates to *Bv04? Mar 01 13:36:08 The fundamental problem is that now BT's various arms have been spun off, it pretty much has to make money off the central network, which means bandwidth charges... Mar 01 13:36:16 Elrond: IIRC it was said so on the wiki Mar 01 13:36:25 openmoko: 03werner * r1179 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/README: Mar 01 13:36:25 openmoko: - added stages overview Mar 01 13:36:25 openmoko: - updated description of how stage 2 ends Mar 01 13:37:17 in english that pretty much means it's fucked business-wise, if it doesn't take everything out as long as it can. in the process it's slowing down the development of broadband related activity Mar 01 13:37:52 Yeah. Mar 01 13:37:55 ; GTA01Bv4 Mar 01 13:37:55 This is the version that will be shipped in Phase 1 Mar 01 13:37:55 Changes from GTA01Bv3 Mar 01 13:37:56 1. Fix all Errata items from GTA01Bv3 Mar 01 13:38:03 :) Mar 01 13:38:24 guaqua: For more fun - the virtual circuit model means that broadcast can't work. Mar 01 13:38:26 I asked about P0 ;) Mar 01 13:38:32 Ah. Mar 01 13:38:49 P0 are basically geting buggy hardware AIUI. Mar 01 13:39:05 Good I'm not on P0 ;) Mar 01 13:39:05 so all in all, bad service for little money and with no chance of actual development Mar 01 13:39:09 There are no _critical_ bugs that will stop it working as a phone with a battery life of a couple of days. Mar 01 13:39:54 guaqua: And broadcast not working means all 'broadband TV' stuff gets horribly expensive. Mar 01 13:40:23 we have an isp in finland that actually offers dvb over adsl Mar 01 13:40:34 but there's only one Mar 01 13:40:55 Of course - this sort of stuff can be done - if you're in a LLU (local loop unbundled) exchange, but... Mar 01 13:41:40 i think BT is just too big Mar 01 13:42:04 there won't be any changes as long as it remains in power Mar 01 13:43:36 i wonder what the broadband service is like in france and italy, are the problems the same as in uk and germany? Mar 01 13:43:42 There is no political impetus to. The users can from their perspective pick different ISPs or telcos. Mar 01 13:44:17 They don't understand the reasons why the ISPs quota. Mar 01 13:46:32 openmoko: 03laforge * r1180 10/trunk/oe/packages/openocd/ (openocd-native_130.bb openocd_130.bb openocd_svn.bb): Mar 01 13:46:32 openmoko: * add 'wait-patiently.patch' from werner Mar 01 13:46:32 openmoko: * add revision 130 as 'known-good' version Mar 01 13:49:59 revision 131 would have been known-better... ;) Mar 01 13:55:21 vmaster: heh Mar 01 13:56:08 * koen raises to 132 Mar 01 13:56:39 nah, working on a larger update for 132 which is certainly going to break some stuff ;) Mar 01 13:57:30 131 contains only a fix for libftdi, which openmoko prefers over the free libftdi Mar 01 13:59:02 openmoko: 03laforge * r1181 10/trunk/oe/packages/openocd/ (openocd_130.bb openocd_svn.bb): put the openocd binary in deploy_dir Mar 01 14:00:49 s/free libftdi/proprietary ftd2xx/ Mar 01 14:00:50 vmaster meant: 131 contains only a fix for libftdi, which openmoko prefers over the proprietary ftd2xx Mar 01 14:02:41 moin Mar 01 14:02:47 Mornign. Mar 01 14:02:52 Well - afternoon. Mar 01 14:03:14 ^^ not in eurpoe Mar 01 14:03:39 I gathered. Mar 01 14:03:52 if you sleep by daylight ... the morning comes later Mar 01 14:05:16 counter Mar 01 14:05:16 P0: 2 days 21:19:53 (2.889 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.889 +-10.0 (see faq) (437) Mar 01 14:05:48 is there a shop avaliable? Mar 01 14:05:58 can't buy yet. Mar 01 14:06:06 faq? Mar 01 14:06:06 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 01 14:06:09 ^^ Mar 01 14:06:12 ahh ok Mar 01 14:06:55 Maybe a month or so till the general public can buy one. Mar 01 14:07:13 They are re-rolling the PCB now. Mar 01 14:07:58 hehehe, amazing how the two '?' trigger works Mar 01 14:09:29 hahaha, you know something's fubar'd when your hardware dumps core via the serial interface ;) Mar 01 14:10:59 hmm sep. so i have to take care of my samsung so long Mar 01 14:11:35 Sep - for 'end userable' hardware, yes. Mar 01 14:13:55 vmaster: actually this time it was "faq?" that triggered Mar 01 14:14:07 i think BT is just too big Mar 01 14:14:07 there won't be any changes as long as it remains in power Mar 01 14:14:14 You talking about British Telecom? Mar 01 14:14:17 i think i'm trying some apps but no dev. ;) Mar 01 14:15:36 noidd: he was. Mar 01 14:16:03 It sounds like P0 - in a few days will have a working phone, but little more. Mar 01 14:16:35 The state come P1 time - in a month or so should be much better, it's going to be a hell of a long way from finished though. Mar 01 14:16:50 Probably not usable if you just want a device. Mar 01 14:17:42 That's why user launch is september. Mar 01 14:17:55 Yep. Mar 01 14:18:50 but I expect most of us here should be able to cope just fine Mar 01 14:20:51 us?? europa is the market ;) Mar 01 14:24:34 buz: "Tap and drag is already used for lassooing items." Mar 01 14:24:49 wtf would one lasso items in a calendar Mar 01 14:24:55 buz: that sounds like "we have broken behaviour because we have broken behaviour" Mar 01 14:25:15 koen: I was able to add new events in dates without problems. does openmoko-dates is so different? Mar 01 14:25:24 hrw: it is :( Mar 01 14:25:28 unintuitive behavior leads to even more unintuitive behavior Mar 01 14:26:09 openmoko: 03werner * r1182 10/developers/werner/openocd-link-static.patch: Link everything statically, for better binary compatibility. Mar 01 14:28:53 buz: I've added another comment to #222 Mar 01 14:29:02 so did i Mar 01 14:30:19 "Lassoing? It's highly unlikely people would need to lasso items. This seems like Mar 01 14:30:19 a case of unintuitive behavior leads to even more unintuitive behavior. Mar 01 14:30:19 Is the design spec for openmoko-dates available somewhere? It seems someone Mar 01 14:30:19 completely unfamiliar with a touchscreen implemented openmoko-dates." Mar 01 14:31:03 i agree Mar 01 14:31:13 i have used a touchscreen phones for 3 year now Mar 01 14:31:15 the regular dates app rocks Mar 01 14:31:26 it NEVER occured to me that one would want to lasso stuff Mar 01 14:31:33 but regular dates is created for a zaurus clamshell Mar 01 14:31:54 or rather "something with buttons" Mar 01 14:32:03 openmoko: 03laforge * r1183 10/trunk/oe/packages/openocd/ (openocd_130.bb openocd_svn.bb): build a statically linked version Mar 01 14:32:04 it works quite ok on the nokia tables Mar 01 14:32:38 tablets* Mar 01 14:51:44 openmoko: 03laforge * r1184 10/trunk/oe/packages/ (dfu-util/ openocd/openocd_130.bb): bitbake wants 'rev' not 'revision' Mar 01 14:52:03 hi all Mar 01 14:52:54 hi ninHer Mar 01 14:53:06 hi aloril Mar 01 14:55:52 aloril: it's actually the same openmoko in the pictures .. i am keeping my phones at olpc because cjb and others who are interested in them are there Mar 01 14:57:18 openmoko: 03werner * r1185 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (Makefile README config.example crc32.pl): Mar 01 14:57:18 openmoko: Makefile: updated "devirginate" dependencies. Mar 01 14:57:18 openmoko: README: added run-time requisites for setup and installation. Mar 01 14:57:18 openmoko: README: added partial description of setup. Mar 01 14:57:18 openmoko: config.example: removed variable "MODULES" (for kernel modules). Mar 01 14:57:20 openmoko: crc32.pl: fixed 64 bit compatibility Mar 01 14:59:03 mako: how readable is 80x25 text? (I guess it should be quite good?) Mar 01 14:59:55 comparing http://www.mobile-review.com/pda/review/htc-vox-en.shtml to Neo1973 I feel that Neo1973 offers at least twice more for half price (including P1 device which will come bundled only with few apps) Mar 01 15:04:52 Totally off topic and clearly useless, but cool none the less: Amiga Workbench in js och dhtml: http://www.chiptune.com/ Mar 01 15:05:16 aloril: if your display is 100dpi, then put up a 640*480 window, and back off till you can't read it easily. Mar 01 15:05:23 Then divide by three. Mar 01 15:06:31 SpeedEvil: yeah, duh, I proposed that myself in past ;-) Mar 01 15:06:47 Oh :) Mar 01 15:07:27 Just get some binoculars and use them backwards ;) Mar 01 15:07:43 totally offtopic: but where can i get a cheap low power board with 4sata and lan??? Mar 01 15:08:20 buz: How low power? I've been thinking about something like that too Mar 01 15:08:34 think no more than 10W Mar 01 15:08:41 the less the better Mar 01 15:09:03 if via wasnt that stupid i'd simply go mini itx but alas those idiots rather add 2 pata ports than 4 sata Mar 01 15:09:45 and 4port pci sata controller costs more than a cheap AMD board Mar 01 15:10:14 I was surfing on some nice board.. I'll try to find it again Mar 01 15:10:21 should be quite OK I think (actually I proposed to backoff until it fills same size as 2.8" screen at 20cm distance) Mar 01 15:10:34 the thing in the apple tv would be perfect if it had sata (we dont know yet) Mar 01 15:10:44 5W pentium m plus gf7400 Mar 01 15:11:43 aloril: on which one? Mar 01 15:12:25 -> seems quite readable Mar 01 15:12:51 mako: Neo1973 (though I guess you don't get landscape orientation with current software ;-) Mar 01 15:13:09 aloril: well, depends on if you've started x Mar 01 15:13:39 but yes, it's a very high resolutio display.. more than enough to do a full screen of text if you're up close Mar 01 15:13:52 buz: Was thinking of this one: http://www.itox.com/pages/products/mothers/revcontrol/g5c100-n-g.php Mar 01 15:14:00 quite like the olpc xo in that respect as well Mar 01 15:14:01 mako: about 2000 characters in screen is easily readable I guess Mar 01 15:14:03 buz: But unfortunately only 2 sata Mar 01 15:14:18 intel sucks too much power Mar 01 15:14:25 and ULV chips are hideously expensive Mar 01 15:14:37 its gotta be either VIA C* or arm Mar 01 15:14:44 tho i'd prefer via Mar 01 15:14:47 ok Mar 01 15:15:41 if its via, i can simply slap ubuntu on it Mar 01 15:16:03 But that G5C100-N-G with a ULV U1500 would be sweet :) Mar 01 15:16:23 mako: I was just wondering if I could assume that what could be done in past using VGA monitor can be done with Neo1973 too and you can also see it (ie.. not too small pixels ;-) Mar 01 15:16:30 Yes. Mar 01 15:16:35 If you hold it at 20cm. Mar 01 15:16:43 And can focus on it at that range. Mar 01 15:17:15 but I think you can see 0.09mm pixels but not much smaller Mar 01 15:17:39 openmoko: 03laforge * r1186 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: Mar 01 15:17:39 openmoko: * only print error message if usb_reset() returns error != -ENODEV, since that seems to be Mar 01 15:17:39 openmoko: somewhat standard ?!? Mar 01 15:18:16 so.. 1280x960 resolution on same physical size would probably still be same as VGA: same amount of things to see, except a bit more clear Mar 01 15:18:41 ie.. you can't have 4x more text and except to see it much better than on VGA Mar 01 15:19:00 yeah. Mar 01 15:19:06 You get a _little_ better. Mar 01 15:19:21 As 14*10 fonts are much more visible than 7*5 Mar 01 15:19:28 Well - slightly. Mar 01 15:20:48 openmoko: 03werner * r1187 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (README setup.sh): Mar 01 15:20:48 openmoko: setup.sh: added test for possibly missing "external" executables Mar 01 15:20:48 openmoko: README: more setup description Mar 01 15:21:26 hi Mar 01 15:22:43 * aloril drools thinking Neo1973 VGA screen ;-) Mar 01 15:23:29 careful to keep the drool away from the device Mar 01 15:26:32 fluffs: not a problem, unfortunately Mar 01 15:27:18 hmm, supersonic drool... Mar 01 15:36:09 hmm.. consider this: Neo1973 will be released on September, so we get it 0.5 year ahead ;-) Mar 01 15:36:26 what other company allows anybody to buy product 0.5 year ahead of its actual release? Mar 01 15:36:42 aloril: many software companies release betas :) Mar 01 15:37:33 dottedmag: haha Mar 01 15:40:20 CM: http://www.ewayco.com has some really cheap embedded boards Mar 01 15:41:56 but no sata :( Mar 01 15:45:51 can we agree that anything having an x86 cpu disqualifies as 'embedded'? Mar 01 15:46:13 koen: don't think you'll get everyone to agree on that Mar 01 15:46:35 prpplague: agreed, but I can try :) Mar 01 15:46:43 koen: no. Mar 01 15:46:48 Absolutely not. Mar 01 15:46:49 koen: hehe Mar 01 15:46:57 My garmin GPS12 has a 386 Mar 01 15:49:00 my printer an i486 Mar 01 15:49:46 but slapping a mini-itx board in a case and going EMBEDDED!!!!!!! is a stretch Mar 01 15:50:09 well i'm happy to take pointer to true embedded boards with 4 sata ;) Mar 01 15:50:11 IMO, not. Can the user use it as a PC. Mar 01 15:53:21 http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS8859436106.html Mar 01 15:55:44 openmoko: 03laforge * r1188 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: print interface info once we have selected the one that we actually want to flash Mar 01 15:56:27 openmoko: 03laforge * r1189 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/sam7dfu.c: Mar 01 15:56:27 openmoko: * correctly call dfu_download with NULL data buffer at the end Mar 01 15:56:27 openmoko: * add scaled progress bar instead of hash printing Mar 01 15:58:11 openmoko: 03laforge * r1190 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/sam7dfu.c: fprintf typo Mar 01 16:02:17 so, what's the latest openmoko news? :-) Mar 01 16:06:19 openmoko: 03laforge * r1191 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/Makefile.am: add build rule for dfu-util_static Mar 01 16:06:30 openmoko: 03laforge * r1192 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/autogen.sh: use autoreconf Mar 01 16:12:06 Does anyone know if the syncml work is already done for openmoko? Mar 01 16:17:27 theres a funambol guy on the mailinglist Mar 01 16:17:33 might want to ask there Mar 01 16:28:33 openmoko: 03werner * r1193 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch: Mar 01 16:28:33 openmoko: u-boot/common/console.c, include/console.h, board/neo1973/bootmenu.c: Mar 01 16:28:33 openmoko: console_poll_hook now has an argument indicating console activity Mar 01 16:28:33 openmoko: board/neo1973/bootmenu.c (bootmenu_hook): reset the timeout on console activity Mar 01 16:28:33 openmoko: and if executing a command Mar 01 16:29:49 Interesting - 24 dls of the google video, 56 of the rapidshare one. Mar 01 16:29:56 (of the talk). Mar 01 16:31:20 talk about what? Mar 01 16:31:20 funny you mentioned it SpeedEvil. I just watched it 5 minutes ago Mar 01 16:32:08 ynezz: openmoko talk at fosdem Mar 01 16:32:35 ah, link pls :) Mar 01 16:33:25 http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3742589179435830945&q=openmoko+fosdem Mar 01 16:33:42 thanks Mar 01 16:34:07 the rapidshare one is _much_ better. Mar 01 16:34:18 http://rapidshare.com/files/18781887/rect.avi Mar 01 16:34:20 openmoko/qemu-r1190 uploaded Mar 01 16:34:25 as you can actually rtead much of the text Mar 01 16:34:40 Same size, but no seeking of course. Mar 01 16:34:44 ok Mar 01 16:34:54 the pdf is online, so google vid + pdf would be the optimal solution Mar 01 16:35:04 http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/openmoko/OpenMoko_Neologics.pdf Mar 01 16:35:27 Well, the rapidshare one is actually much better quality just to watch. Mar 01 16:35:41 SpeedEvil: hm, i can't wget that link Mar 01 16:35:46 no, you can't. Mar 01 16:35:51 rapidshare is annoying. Mar 01 16:36:12 ynezz: http://ia311529.us.archive.org/0/items/OpenMoko_speech_FOSDEM2007_video/SNV38175.AVI Mar 01 16:36:25 That's the 350M version. Mar 01 16:36:27 thanks Mar 01 16:36:29 ah, yes Mar 01 16:36:53 * dottedmag is still downloading it :) Mar 01 16:36:55 thats smaller or bigger? Mar 01 16:37:10 the rapidshare one is 66M Mar 01 16:37:21 and the 350M version is not actually more readable. Mar 01 16:37:21 ok Mar 01 16:38:05 The google one is very poor quality. Mar 01 16:38:22 * koen_ mentions the pdf again Mar 01 16:38:29 True. Mar 01 16:42:10 lool ein tor Mar 01 16:48:59 LuitvD, did you gut reply untill now ? :> Mar 01 16:49:55 denis^da: nope Mar 01 17:00:09 counter Mar 01 17:00:09 P0: 2 days 18:24:59 (2.767 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.767 +-10.0 (see faq) (438) Mar 01 17:09:29 openmoko: 03laforge * r1194 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-pcf50606.patch: * leave DEBUG enabled but make it a bit less verbose Mar 01 17:10:42 * buz has given up on e28 Mar 01 17:11:01 openmoko: 03laforge * r1195 10/trunk/oe/packages/xserver-kdrive-common/xserver-nodm-init/xserver-nodm: * make sure X11 always starts even after unclean shutdown Mar 01 17:11:15 LaF0rge: YAY Mar 01 17:13:36 LaF0rge: fosdem bug will not return ;) Mar 01 17:14:32 I don't think that's mergeable into OE Mar 01 17:14:41 # an ugly hack to make sure Xserver will always start, even Mar 01 17:14:42 # after unclean shutdown Mar 01 17:14:42 [ -e /tmp/.X0-lock ] && rm /tmp/.X0-lock Mar 01 17:15:09 anyone tried the qemu openmoko stuff? Mar 01 17:15:09 * XorA|gone wonders how desktop machines do it Mar 01 17:15:15 sounds like you just need to put /tmp in tmpfs and it will work after an unclean shutdown Mar 01 17:15:37 XorA|gone: they don't, debian cleans /tmp on boot Mar 01 17:16:14 debian also boots notoriously slowly Mar 01 17:16:27 Meh Mar 01 17:16:31 18:51 hrw@home:~$ grep lock /etc/init.d/*|grep X Mar 01 17:16:31 /etc/init.d/bootclean: rm -f .X*-lock Mar 01 17:16:41 I can't decide whether to buy an OpenMoko phone or not Mar 01 17:16:50 The FICwhatever seems like the best alternative out of all phones on the market but... Mar 01 17:17:52 It's not on the market... Mar 01 17:17:54 yet. Mar 01 17:18:04 It was just a figure of speech -_- Mar 01 17:18:37 I'm still using my ancient N-Gage. Works well enough for IRC and web and stuff. Emulators too. Mar 01 17:19:51 But having something more... modern would be nice. Mar 01 17:21:13 if you want to run game emulators the neo might not be terribly useful to you Mar 01 17:21:30 the absence of any real buttons doesnt seem particularly nice for gaming Mar 01 17:23:16 are there any bluetooth gamepad? Mar 01 17:23:34 There are bluetooth mice. Mar 01 17:23:44 Nintendo's WIImote uses bluetooth Mar 01 17:23:51 iirc Mar 01 17:24:01 that would look funny Mar 01 17:24:26 one hand holding a openmoko, with the user trying to see what the screen reads, then other hand swinging wildly a wiimote :D Mar 01 17:24:35 LOL Mar 01 17:25:18 'No, I diddn't mean to kill him officer, I was just playing Doom'. Mar 01 17:25:24 vmaster: it's IR isnt it? Mar 01 17:25:36 baseballmote Mar 01 17:25:41 No. Mar 01 17:25:49 It has IR camera, to pick up IR LEDs Mar 01 17:25:53 the freedom mini seems somewhat compelling to me... http://msmobiles.com/news.php/4989.html Mar 01 17:25:59 to desaturate the gryoscopes. Mar 01 17:26:09 (no, not a game controoler, though it does sport arrow keys arranged funnily ;) Mar 01 17:26:12 accellerometers. Mar 01 17:27:29 'course, there's the thing that even a mini-keyboard really requires that you have something to put the Neo against while using it, for effective use... Mar 01 17:27:30 wiimote is fine for gamepad :) Mar 01 17:27:33 just turn it sideways Mar 01 17:29:46 'course, there's frogpad, which claims one-handed use... maybe that could be a skill to learn Mar 01 17:30:29 hmm Mar 01 17:30:39 one-handed, not two-thumbed Mar 01 17:30:50 oh wait Mar 01 17:30:57 "Offers exceptional portability when in use because it can be held in one hand and operated with the other" Mar 01 17:31:00 pfft Mar 01 17:31:09 I _was_ wondering how practical that would really be with one hand Mar 01 17:31:12 how is that one handed :D Mar 01 17:31:13 :D Mar 01 17:31:23 they see it one-handed on a desk Mar 01 17:31:36 ... hell, my 104-key fullsize keyboard can be used one-handed! Mar 01 17:32:07 DesktopMa: http://www.frogpad.com/Images/FrogPadEasyBrilliant_260pix.gif Mar 01 17:32:19 lol! Mar 01 17:35:06 how much does that freedom thingy cost Mar 01 17:35:39 buz: $350 Mar 01 17:35:49 for real? Mar 01 17:35:54 i have not figure out where I can get one for this Mar 01 17:36:09 it is on openmoko wiki's FAQ Mar 01 17:36:24 the description is not very clear Mar 01 17:36:41 uhm i'm not refering to neo, really Mar 01 17:36:43 i am not sure if i can use it for making/receiving call Mar 01 17:36:45 more to the freedom keyboard Mar 01 17:36:51 that cant possibly cost 350$ Mar 01 17:37:13 http://www.freedominput.com/site/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=13&Itemid=30 one might be able to attach that somehow to neo Mar 01 17:38:25 i dont like razresque keys very much Mar 01 17:38:43 come neo screen is too small Mar 01 17:39:07 keyboard for neo does not make sense to me at all Mar 01 17:40:02 i was in a congress, there is an laser keyboard available in market Mar 01 17:40:05 pretty cool Mar 01 17:40:11 and mostly useless Mar 01 17:40:15 makes perfect sense to me Mar 01 17:40:22 2 hr busride + msn Mar 01 17:40:23 :P Mar 01 17:40:44 for what? Mar 01 17:41:36 irc on train Mar 01 17:41:40 FIC tried hard on neo Mar 01 17:41:57 but i do not think neo will be 100% open source Mar 01 17:42:08 if you dont use the gps, it is Mar 01 17:42:11 openmoko: 03laforge * r1196 10/trunk/oe/packages/ (32 files in 11 dirs): Mar 01 17:42:11 openmoko: we just want to have our own inittab, but apparently need to fork the whole Mar 01 17:42:11 openmoko: sysvinit package. time for mainline OE merge ;) Mar 01 17:42:39 (and i'm still hoping hammerhead gets replaced for p1+) Mar 01 17:43:27 Why? Mar 01 17:43:45 It's not going to be that hard to reverse engineer. Mar 01 17:43:48 openmoko: 03laforge * r1197 10/trunk/oe/packages/dfu-util/dfu-util-native_svn.bb: copy+paste mistake Mar 01 17:43:51 because there is http://www.wifinetnews.com/archives/007315.html Mar 01 17:44:01 buz, if you don't use GPS or GSM it is, you mean... ;) Mar 01 17:44:20 come on, buz do not do that. U can send to me Mar 01 17:44:28 like to take a look the real thing Mar 01 17:44:40 ?!?!? Mar 01 17:44:56 'the company wants to' != shipping product. Mar 01 17:45:20 hammerhead is shipping. Mar 01 17:45:20 read it again Mar 01 17:45:23 it's not like most people need to do low level hammerhead Mar 01 17:45:28 wants to seems to refer to keeping market share Mar 01 17:45:32 not developing a chip Mar 01 17:45:54 or maybe it does it wants to develop it http://www.engadget.com/2007/01/16/britains-csr-developing-uber-sensitive-bluetooth-gps-hybrid-c/ Mar 01 17:46:14 Look after that. Mar 01 17:46:19 It's all future tense. Mar 01 17:46:46 "Already being hit up by a few anonymous mobile producers, CSR plans to get these things shipping "during the first half of this year," Mar 01 17:46:46 check on www.sandbridgetech.com Mar 01 17:46:55 software base band Mar 01 17:47:16 plans != shipping product. Mar 01 17:47:34 Show me the chips. Mar 01 17:47:35 i dont have a f***** clue what sandbridge tries to tell me on that page Mar 01 17:48:03 wtf is a sandblaster core Mar 01 17:48:09 dunno but sounds awesome Mar 01 17:48:12 is that something that will destroy kids sandcastles at the beach? Mar 01 17:48:55 Software radios are cool. But at the moment, more expensive and power hungry than application specific chips. Mar 01 17:48:56 buz: like i said. I had a sandbridgetech development board like mainstone (huge) Mar 01 17:49:15 i like to take a look on neo, but do not know how to get one. Mar 01 17:49:24 thats because it doesnt ship yet Mar 01 17:49:26 counter Mar 01 17:49:26 P0: 2 days 17:35:42 (2.733 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.733 +-10.0 (see faq) (439) Mar 01 17:49:38 P1 = anyone can order a Neo Mar 01 17:49:39 Samsung Evil Plan (confidential) Mar 01 17:50:04 any return policy Mar 01 17:50:04 openmoko: 03laforge * r1198 10/trunk/oe/packages/openocd/ (4 files in 2 dirs): use -static instead of -Bstatic (in local copy of patch) Mar 01 17:50:27 warranty. Mar 01 17:50:29 Highly doubt that, it's only $350 anyway Mar 01 17:50:40 And presumably the standard EU 7 day return thing. Mar 01 17:50:45 Distance selling regs. Mar 01 17:50:53 But that's only if you don't use it. Mar 01 17:51:27 will this including JTAG for debugging? Mar 01 17:51:36 you can get jtag Mar 01 17:51:38 saw extra $200 for development board Mar 01 17:51:45 yeah Mar 01 17:51:52 You shouldn't need JTAG. Mar 01 17:51:53 total will be $550 right? Mar 01 17:52:01 most wont ever need jtag Mar 01 17:52:01 Unless you're developing uboot Mar 01 17:52:23 haha, unless you mess up with blob, u do need that then Mar 01 17:52:25 or if you were otherwise clever enough to ruin the bootloader Mar 01 17:52:40 uhm there is no blob Mar 01 17:52:45 u-boot supports booting an image from RAM. Mar 01 17:52:46 my engineers did that couple times in lab Mar 01 17:53:10 u-boot can even boot from sd Mar 01 17:53:10 So you never need to flash a non-tested image. Mar 01 17:53:14 yeah. Mar 01 17:53:26 so if your image is broken, you can still boot from sd Mar 01 17:53:30 i had lots of questions, if you do not mind Mar 01 17:53:43 unless if you're clever enough to flash u-boot AND the image at the same time Mar 01 17:53:49 heh, just because it's possible to test new images without flashing doesn't mean that people aren't going to try Mar 01 17:53:55 Neo's filesystem is on SD or DOM ? Mar 01 17:53:57 It's probaly worth reading the FAQ page on the wiki. Mar 01 17:54:07 the SD is user replaceael Mar 01 17:54:17 all of the base software fits on the NANAD Mar 01 17:54:19 NAND Mar 01 17:54:22 I knew that you can use SD for running a demo, but possible flash on to DOM? Mar 01 17:54:26 which is 64M. Mar 01 17:54:32 DOM? Mar 01 17:54:38 NAND is not strictly DOM Mar 01 17:54:43 can you boot from the SD? Mar 01 17:54:53 says so in the u-boot docs Mar 01 17:54:57 no, boot application from SD Mar 01 17:55:08 you can run programs from SD. Mar 01 17:55:14 you dont boot applications Mar 01 17:55:14 that is what i mean Mar 01 17:55:20 sorry about my poor english Mar 01 17:55:20 sure Mar 01 17:55:21 wow, 64M is a lot of space Mar 01 17:55:23 this is linux, why not Mar 01 17:55:25 i bet you can throw in lots of apps there Mar 01 17:55:33 well, of course you can run applications from SD. Mar 01 17:55:43 If you put the core apps on the SD, it means you can't change it. Mar 01 17:55:48 (in 2.6.20 you can even yank out the running kernel and replace it on the fly, iirc) Mar 01 17:55:54 nbd, you are right. Such as fat Qtopia Mar 01 17:55:55 Or at least it's much more difficult to change. Mar 01 17:56:03 of course most will never change sd Mar 01 17:56:07 microsd is a pain to handle Mar 01 17:56:11 Yeah. Mar 01 17:56:18 Or upgrade size of SD. Mar 01 17:56:25 yeah i really hope for that Mar 01 17:56:36 when will neo support MMC Mar 01 17:56:42 5-stage process to access the SD isn't promising. Mar 01 17:56:51 externally accesible Mar 01 17:56:52 jackey: never - the first version. Mar 01 17:56:53 jackey: about a year ago Mar 01 17:57:06 if you manage to cram mmc into microsd slot, immediately Mar 01 17:57:20 (turn off, open back, remove sim, remove SD) Mar 01 17:57:21 micro-mmc? Mar 01 17:57:31 i think there's mmcmobile Mar 01 17:57:36 but i have no idea what size that one has Mar 01 17:57:39 they are different sizes though. Mar 01 17:57:55 hehe, SIM card has a revolution on MMC channel Mar 01 17:58:16 high speed coumminication implementation via MMC Mar 01 17:58:43 i like the usb sim better Mar 01 17:58:59 I want the microSD vapourware to emerge. Mar 01 17:58:59 no good for operators like China Telcom Mar 01 17:59:01 didn't sandisk block sim-mmc? Mar 01 17:59:04 The non-contact one. Mar 01 17:59:05 or China Mobile Mar 01 17:59:39 rf microsd? Mar 01 17:59:46 what's not good for China Mobile? Mar 01 17:59:46 thats gonna work really well Mar 01 17:59:49 buz: no Mar 01 17:59:50 very power preserving Mar 01 18:00:22 openmoko: 03laforge * r1199 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/gta01-kernel_2.6.bb: we want 2.6.20.1 by default Mar 01 18:00:28 next genernation SIM will have a ARM CPU + 512M Mar 01 18:00:43 It's supposed to be couple of centimetre range, with a few tens of K/second. Mar 01 18:00:54 sounds terribly useless to me Mar 01 18:01:30 buz: haha, told u evil plan by SxxxG Mar 01 18:01:48 whats evil about improving sim Mar 01 18:01:59 i'd very much welcome sims based on a sane protocol Mar 01 18:02:17 China Mobile lost control of mobile vendors in china, the only way to turn over is using those kind of SIM card Mar 01 18:03:04 the whole reason gsm took off in the first place was the sim idea Mar 01 18:03:34 will FIC release neo hardware principle chart in the future? Mar 01 18:07:45 openmoko: 03laforge * r1200 10/trunk/oe/packages/openocd/openocd_130.bb: fix openocd build Mar 01 18:08:24 openmoko: 03laforge * r1201 10/trunk/oe/packages/openocd/openocd_130.bb: -EOPEN Mar 01 18:08:50 damn, Glad I'm an arms dealer then. Mar 01 18:13:51 openmoko: 03werner * r1202 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/ (environment.in setup.sh): Mar 01 18:13:51 openmoko: environment.in: don't "saveenv" after changing the console to usbtty or serial Mar 01 18:13:51 openmoko: setup.sh: look for UIMAGE and ROOTFS with -r, not -f, so that one can use Mar 01 18:13:51 openmoko: /dev/null for stage 1 only setups Mar 01 18:21:57 counter Mar 01 18:21:57 P0: 2 days 17:03:11 (2.711 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.711 +-10.0 (see faq) (440) Mar 01 18:24:08 hehe, someones probably noticed this before, but http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Look_%26_Feel Mar 01 18:24:20 check out the picture for "Low Battery" Mar 01 18:30:56 Psi_: where is that picture? Mar 01 18:31:58 Warring? Mar 01 18:37:15 IIRC I commented on the talk page Mar 01 18:40:41 loufoque, about half way down Mar 01 18:41:14 i was just laughing at if the phones came with that spelling mistake for the word Please Mar 01 18:41:51 probably Mar 01 18:41:59 geeks are usually bad at spelling Mar 01 18:42:05 and shouldn't it be warning instead of warring? Mar 01 18:42:28 hehe didnt notice that one Mar 01 18:42:41 "Pelase recharge the battery" hehe Mar 01 18:44:53 its gunna be so cool that we can change all the messages like that to whatever we want Mar 01 18:45:13 change "Battery Low" to "ZPM depleted" hehe Mar 01 18:45:38 ZPMs are overrated Mar 01 18:45:59 could even put a picture of a ZPM flashing on/off Mar 01 18:46:03 It needs to make the 'phaser on overload' noise when it's finished charging. Mar 01 18:46:09 heh Mar 01 18:46:39 I've wondered why paramount hasn't done a bluetooth combadge. Mar 01 18:46:46 I mean, it's so obvious. Mar 01 18:47:25 heh Mar 01 18:48:43 SpeedEvil: hehe, several homebrew electronics people have Mar 01 18:50:16 Oh I know, making a replica is trivial. Mar 01 18:50:40 (assuming you simply gut an earpiece) Mar 01 18:52:09 you would need to add a bigger battery and an amp, since its designed to fit in ya ear Mar 01 18:52:31 wouldn't be loud enough otherwise Mar 01 18:53:44 openmoko: 03laforge * r1203 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (config-nr-tty-devices.patch series): Mar 01 18:53:44 openmoko: * decrease the number of VT devices to four, this gives a udev speedup. Mar 01 18:53:44 openmoko: Also, we won't use that many VT's anyway. It's a phone, after all Mar 01 18:53:46 Well - there are bluetooth car adaptors that'd suit. Mar 01 18:54:31 robtaylor: check the commit above :) Mar 01 18:55:45 LaF0rge? Mar 01 18:55:56 aka Harald Mar 01 18:55:59 jupp Mar 01 18:56:11 koen - Yeah. I hope for him to awake here. ;) Mar 01 18:56:17 yeah, car adaptors would be much better Mar 01 18:56:39 car adaptor for what? Mar 01 18:56:45 i dont think i would be brave enough to walk around with a st combadge tho Mar 01 18:57:34 Elrond, SpeedEvil was thinking ya could mod a bt adaptor to make a startrek combadge Mar 01 18:57:55 Elrond: 'lo. Mar 01 18:58:02 cjb - Hi! Mar 01 18:58:35 Elrond: so, I was wondering which port on the debug board v2 is serial once the debug cable is hooked up, and if I use a USB A<->A to hook that up. Mar 01 18:59:18 cjb - Huh... isn't that documented on the connecting debug board wiki page? Mar 01 18:59:29 cjb: aren't it a bunch of foo-> usb IC connected to a usb hub? Mar 01 18:59:30 Elrond: Hi. I meant to ask how you're involved with the project, by the way -- it sounds like you have hardware? Or maybe you're just smart enough to have worked all this out from the diagrams. :) Mar 01 19:00:07 Elrond: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Connecting_Neo1973_with_Debug_Board_v2 just tells me how to hook up the cable itself, which I've done. Mar 01 19:00:33 Ahh. Mar 01 19:00:50 The second A port is just "for nothing". ;) Mar 01 19:00:59 cjb: see the diagram on top of http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Debug_Board Mar 01 19:01:00 The serial console is within the jtag connector. Mar 01 19:01:13 See koen. I looked at the same pic. :) Mar 01 19:01:22 ooh. and it's presented over the "uplink" USB B? Mar 01 19:01:30 cjb - Involvement: I've read all hardware pages on the wiki ;) Mar 01 19:01:41 that's the part that was confusing me, 'cause I'd never seen a USB A<->A cable before. Mar 01 19:01:43 cjb: yes Mar 01 19:01:51 awesome, that's easy. Mar 01 19:01:52 (on the uplink) Mar 01 19:01:55 cjb - Yes, presumably over the uplink as "usb-serial". Mar 01 19:02:03 excellent. Mar 01 19:02:27 sounds like I get to try putting a new kernel/jffs2 on in a few hours, then. Mar 01 19:02:31 you might need a kernel module on your host Mar 01 19:02:43 yeah, that's all fine. Mar 01 19:03:11 usb 1-1.1.1: FTDI USB Serial Device converter now attached to ttyUSB0 Mar 01 19:03:26 Yeah! Mar 01 19:03:41 Get minicom or tiny-whatever-com up and connect it to this! Mar 01 19:04:00 yup. have $realwork to do first, though. Mar 01 19:04:12 Ahh. Mar 01 19:04:24 Elrond,cjb: I'd use usb-dfu for that Mar 01 19:04:27 cjb - the debug board is half a usb hub. :) Mar 01 19:04:39 much faster and shouldn't require the debug board Mar 01 19:04:40 whst's usb-dfu? Mar 01 19:04:58 koen - For uploading kernel/rootfs? The svn has dfu-util for this. Mar 01 19:05:01 Device Firmware Upload Mar 01 19:05:10 Elrond: I know Mar 01 19:05:15 ah, I see. Mar 01 19:05:30 But this only works, if you have a recent u-boot. Mar 01 19:05:46 ah, right Mar 01 19:05:53 so you might have to upload a new uboot Mar 01 19:08:11 Which either works by microSD or jtag ;o) Mar 01 19:08:11 ... or a running linux. ;) Mar 01 19:08:16 cjb: the debug board is only needed if you manage to mess up uboot or want to use jtag debugging with gdb Mar 01 19:08:38 yup. well, I might need to update uboot. Mar 01 19:09:21 uboot should present you with a usb serial console as well Mar 01 19:09:21 via the mini-usb connector Mar 01 19:09:23 openmoko: 03werner * r1204 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: Change default console to usbtty. Mar 01 19:09:47 Yep. Mar 01 19:10:02 Can u-boot accept stuff via the console? A la zmodem? Mar 01 19:10:08 it should Mar 01 19:10:31 Elrond: the instructions seem to prefer using the microsd. Mar 01 19:10:32 maybe it even supports loading a new uboot from sd Mar 01 19:10:53 koen - _that_ is the preferred way. See cjb Mar 01 19:11:13 first thing i'm gonna do with my neo, is dump uboot Mar 01 19:11:28 prpplague - Huh? Mar 01 19:11:39 Elrond: much prefer apex Mar 01 19:11:41 prpplague: and use apex? Mar 01 19:11:44 koen: yea Mar 01 19:14:25 openmoko: 03laforge * r1205 10/trunk/oe/packages/tslib/tslib-1.0/fic-gta01/tslib.sh: it's now 'event1' since 'event0' was taken by the gta01kbd driver for 911 key Mar 01 19:14:47 heh Mar 01 19:15:07 told you hardcoding eventX would end in tears Mar 01 19:15:08 What's better with apex? Mar 01 19:16:28 911 key? Mar 01 19:16:37 I'm scared to ask. Mar 01 19:16:39 Elrond: just thats its much smaller and easier to customize(IMHO) Mar 01 19:16:51 it sends your coordinates to the chinese governmnet Mar 01 19:17:02 Elrond: i already have usb and sd support for the s3c24xx series Mar 01 19:17:52 prpplague - Ahh. Mar 01 19:18:06 koen - Not to the no such agency? ;) Mar 01 19:18:28 Elrond: seriously, it was in the specs earlier on Mar 01 19:18:36 Elrond: that's why it's called 911 button Mar 01 19:18:50 but that part of the spec got dropped, but the name stayed Mar 01 19:19:10 Elrond: during production we actually jtag on a super small version of apex(around 2k) which then executes to download the actually apex bootloader Mar 01 19:19:23 sean answered a lot of "911 button, wtf?" like questions at fosdem :) Mar 01 19:19:32 hehe. Mar 01 19:19:55 openmoko: 03werner * r1206 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: Don't pass "mtdids" to kernel, because its use is u-boot internal. Mar 01 19:20:30 prpplague - That sounds like fun. :) Mar 01 19:20:49 koen: need something to generate sound effects, i.e. sounds of traffic so you can effectively lie about you whereabouts Mar 01 19:21:22 prpplague: You can inject a mp3 in the voice call Mar 01 19:21:28 *crumble paper* tunnel, sorry *more crumbling" Mar 01 19:21:31 stefan_schmidt: lovely Mar 01 19:22:33 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=conewsstory&refer=conews&tkr=AAPL:US&sid=ayU3qJTMZ62w Mar 01 19:22:52 Apple Says IPhone to Sell Since Free Phones Worthless Mar 01 19:23:14 "Apple Says IPhone to Sell Since Free Phones Worthless " Mar 01 19:23:14 wonder if they are talking about Openmoko LOL Mar 01 19:23:19 that's missing a verb Mar 01 19:23:29 what does that mean? Mar 01 19:23:32 i can't make up the meaning Mar 01 19:23:40 read the link Mar 01 19:23:40 this sentence no verb Mar 01 19:23:49 its a headline Mar 01 19:24:04 it's a sucky headline Mar 01 19:24:05 koen: you sure? Looks grammatical to me Mar 01 19:24:35 you could clame ellipsis Mar 01 19:24:35 and Journalists and Editors major in English Mar 01 19:24:47 <_buz> suppose apple thinks that the gratis phones are useless Mar 01 19:24:49 <_buz> but english it is not Mar 01 19:25:25 * LarstiQ no longer speaks Dutch nor English Mar 01 19:25:37 heh Mar 01 19:25:40 It's bad english imho. Mar 01 19:26:35 do you speak dutlish? Mar 01 19:26:38 needs a "will" Mar 01 19:26:49 neclimdul: only engrish Mar 01 19:27:46 I speak Strine Mar 01 19:27:48 neclimdul: it's not as as bad as Engrish, it's just a hybrid form Mar 01 19:28:21 http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Strine Mar 01 19:31:19 "Apple Says iPhone will sell since free phones are worthless" Mar 01 19:31:22 that's what I'd say Mar 01 19:31:30 or "because" Mar 01 19:31:35 20:01:29 < benJIman> needs a "will" Mar 01 19:31:55 it's also missing "are" Mar 01 19:32:06 "Since Free Phones Worthless" Mar 01 19:32:16 openmoko: 03laforge * r1207 10/trunk/oe/packages/alsa/alsa-state_svn.bb: add the alsa state files for various audio scenarios Mar 01 19:34:24 openmoko: 03laforge * r1208 10/trunk/oe/conf/machine/fic-gta01.conf: Mar 01 19:34:24 openmoko: * we want dfu-util and openocd to be built Mar 01 19:34:24 openmoko: * gta01kbd is now statically linked into the kernel Mar 01 19:41:27 openmoko: 03laforge * r1209 10/trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb: add alsa state Mar 01 20:00:00 openmoko: 03laforge * r1210 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/ (linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb linux-gta01_2.6.20.bb): * build uboot-gta01 when building the kernel Mar 01 20:23:03 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r30 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/linux-gta01.patch: Refreshed kernel patch (STAGING_BINDIR prefix to uboot-mkimage call). Mar 01 20:24:03 that's http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=224 Mar 01 20:24:35 * rwhitby starts a build to see if u-boot builds now Mar 01 20:27:17 cjb - How's stuff going? Mar 01 20:28:03 * rwhitby is watching cjb's progress with great interest ... Mar 01 20:28:24 rwhitby - Yeah, me too. Mar 01 20:28:38 openmoko: 03laforge * r1211 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/openmoko.conf: add the prospective feed uri of this snapshot Mar 01 20:29:11 Except I wouldn't be able to connect a debug board. ;) Mar 01 20:33:40 Elrond: expect to start in around two hours. Mar 01 20:34:15 openmoko: 03laforge * r1212 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: add quiet=1 to reduce printout in nand read Mar 01 20:42:30 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r31 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/uboot-gta01.patch: Fix ordering of do_deploy to be compatible with rm_work Mar 01 20:43:46 openmoko: 03laforge * r1213 10/trunk/oe/packages/tslib/tslib-1.0/fic-gta01/tslib.sh: * use /dev/input/touchscreen0, the symlink created by udev (XorA) Mar 01 20:46:42 It's really nice to see all patches going in.. :) Mar 01 20:46:49 counter Mar 01 20:46:49 P0: 2 days 14:38:18 (2.610 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.610 +-10.0 (see faq) (441) Mar 01 20:46:56 One month to go.. Mar 01 21:18:56 hmm dfu-util-native do_depoy fails Mar 01 21:19:23 can't find dfu-util_static to deploy, cause it isn't even built Mar 01 21:20:34 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r32 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/dfu-util-native.patch: Fix the name of the executable in do_deploy Mar 01 21:21:55 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r33 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/series: Enable uboot and dfu-util workarounds Mar 01 21:22:05 ok, that one might now build Mar 01 22:11:31 hi Mar 01 22:16:11 hello!` Mar 01 22:16:25 who's awake? Mar 01 22:16:35 good nigth :P Mar 01 22:16:41 night :> Mar 01 22:16:46 i am Mar 01 22:16:46 i guess Mar 01 22:16:48 me, hopefully not long Mar 01 22:17:02 but my body is trying to kill me by getting sick. so i have to sleep soon :( Mar 01 22:21:10 holtmann: what's the time there? Mar 01 22:25:29 holtmann: sorry, i meant holyduck Mar 01 22:25:35 holyduck: what's the time there? Mar 01 22:32:49 0008 Mar 01 22:32:49 atm Mar 01 22:32:50 :P Mar 01 22:33:03 just gonna organize up my partition layout a bit Mar 01 22:33:09 then il sleep Mar 01 22:33:43 morning all Mar 01 22:34:25 heya rwhitby Mar 01 22:34:40 hey jebba Mar 01 22:36:24 hi you two Mar 01 22:50:43 Hi l4rs Mar 01 22:50:47 Hi LuitvD Mar 01 22:52:12 hi Elrond Mar 01 22:52:49 until this afternoon, I doubted that I'd ever have to use more then my 5 desktops... now I have 6 :P Mar 01 22:53:37 Huh? Mar 01 22:53:50 counter Mar 01 22:53:50 P0: 2 days 12:31:17 (2.522 +-2.0 days); P1: 24.522 +-10.0 (see faq) (442) Mar 01 22:53:51 short interview... http://gigaom.com/2007/03/01/openmoko-phone/ Mar 01 22:58:31 openmoko: 03werner * r1214 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/openocdcmd.pl: Improved child process error detection. Mar 01 23:09:11 ok, mokotime. Mar 01 23:11:16 woohoo! Mar 01 23:11:54 lol Mar 01 23:11:58 stop.... mokotime? Mar 01 23:13:21 oeh... somebody can get me many pieces of K750i hardware... maybe something to use to create my own, openmokophone? Mar 01 23:14:39 openmoko: 03werner * r1215 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/README: Point out that uou probably have to be root for full USB access. (E.g., reset.) Mar 01 23:14:40 custom-hardware in the K750i case... Mar 01 23:18:22 * Elrond puts the spotlight on cjb ;) Mar 01 23:22:40 wow... nokia pays many kernel developers... :S Mar 01 23:22:51 http://developers.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/03/01/1613253&from=rss Mar 01 23:25:15 * cjb attempts to connect the debug cable to the phone. :) Mar 01 23:27:04 hehe, when stap gets to be too much.. :) Mar 01 23:27:13 innit. Mar 01 23:31:07 we're not doing too bad Mar 01 23:31:31 ok, ready. Mar 01 23:31:42 fluffs - What do you mean? Mar 01 23:31:53 i got a nice load of patches in Mar 01 23:32:12 Ahh. Mar 01 23:32:27 I'm still waiting for comments on my request. Mar 01 23:32:44 cjb: you keeping a log of your session so you can pastebin it? Mar 01 23:32:48 which request? Mar 01 23:32:51 fluffs: From Harald or other samsung stuff? Mar 01 23:33:09 samsung stuff, and sm501 driver Mar 01 23:33:24 fluffs: ah, ok Mar 01 23:33:25 fluffs - http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/openmoko-kernel/2007-February/000000.html Mar 01 23:35:14 rwhitby: sure. Mar 01 23:36:49 U-Boot 1.1.6 (Jan 4 2007 - 12:28:52) Mar 01 23:36:49 Mar 01 23:36:49 DRAM: 128 MB Mar 01 23:36:49 NAND: 64 MiB Mar 01 23:36:52 Mar 01 23:37:24 Hey! Mar 01 23:37:41 hey? Mar 01 23:37:49 anyone know if 1.1.6 is modern enough that I don't need to upgrade it? Mar 01 23:37:58 I'm happy to suspend normal flooding rules for cjb as he embarks on this journey. Anyone object? Mar 01 23:38:14 Nah, I won't paste more than a few lines at once. Mar 01 23:38:23 (i.e. I'd like to see cjb paste lots of stuff in-channel as he progresses) Mar 01 23:38:43 rwhitby - No problem with me. Mar 01 23:38:46 since it is the only way we can vicariously play with the real hardware at the moment :-) Mar 01 23:38:47 so, question two: what can read micro-sd cards? Mar 01 23:39:22 Any SD reader with an adaptor Mar 01 23:39:25 What do you mean by "read micro-sd cards"? Mar 01 23:40:03 Ahh, you mean "write" ;) Mar 01 23:40:24 Yeah. Any sd-card reader/writer. There are adaptors out there. Mar 01 23:40:43 (even my dad has such an adaptor. Don't ask me, where he got it from.) Mar 01 23:40:43 k, we should have one somewhere. Mar 01 23:40:47 And many '484848 in 1' card readers will do it native. Mar 01 23:41:10 oh! I think we got shipped an adaptor. That was considerate. Mar 01 23:41:23 yup Mar 01 23:41:26 SpeedEvil - A friend fighted some of them and didn't get most to work under linux. Mar 01 23:42:10 * cjb uses an OLPC to copy the kernel/nand on to the SD :) Mar 01 23:42:39 heh Mar 01 23:42:42 s/nand/rootfs ;) Mar 01 23:42:49 yup, that. Mar 01 23:42:51 Well - http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ih=005&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWN%3AIT&viewitem=&item=150091394703&rd=1&rd=1 worked for me. Tiny SD-micro reader. Mar 01 23:43:15 2.0, 2.2.4 Mar 01 23:43:16 oops Mar 01 23:44:42 I have a zImage-*.bin and modules-*. Is that what uboot wants, or is there another step? Mar 01 23:45:29 hmm, free opensolaris starterkit :) Mar 01 23:46:08 * fluffs is still attending the therapy for having to program solaris kernel extensions from his last job Mar 01 23:46:20 cjb: which wiki page are you following? Mar 01 23:46:22 * LuitvD puts money where mouth is Mar 01 23:46:42 fluffs: lol Mar 01 23:47:09 that and the manager with the attention span of a dazed kitten Mar 01 23:47:15 fluffs: are those FOS now? Mar 01 23:47:24 cjb - Only the zImage, I assume. The modules have to be in the rootfs. ;) Mar 01 23:47:28 rwhitby: for the moment, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bootloader#Creating_bootable_images Mar 01 23:47:30 never got it working Mar 01 23:47:35 hehehe Mar 01 23:47:40 then left Mar 01 23:47:41 what was it for? Mar 01 23:47:47 Elrond: ok. so the build/tmp/deploy/images/ contains the modules- just in case I happen to want them outside the rootfs? Mar 01 23:47:50 network load balancing Mar 01 23:48:07 ah, perhaps in case I want an initfs. hm. So I'll convert the zImage to a uimage. Mar 01 23:48:28 anyway, gone midnight here, need some sleep otherwise i'll end up toasting boards Mar 01 23:48:41 fluffs: what boards? Mar 01 23:48:48 fluffs: Neo boards? Mar 01 23:48:51 no Mar 01 23:49:06 cjb: the last step in the kernel.bb is a uboot-mkimage - does that info help? Mar 01 23:49:08 need to do a bit of probing on a customer's board to find out what is going wrong Mar 01 23:49:19 ah, lol Mar 01 23:49:20 nothing says instant smoke than an mis-placed probe Mar 01 23:49:28 :) Mar 01 23:49:33 rwhitby: oh, interesting. so I should have a uimage somewhere? where? Mar 01 23:49:40 fluffs - Did you look at my posting? Is it at least plausible/viable? Mar 01 23:50:14 * cjb has: Mar 01 23:50:16 [cjb@fc6 images]$ ls Mar 01 23:50:16 modules-2.6-200702281718-fic-gta01.tgz Mar 01 23:50:16 openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070228171837.rootfs.ext2.gz Mar 01 23:50:19 openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070228171837.rootfs.jffs2 Mar 01 23:50:19 openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070228171837.rootfs.tar.gz Mar 01 23:50:22 sjf2410 Mar 01 23:50:26 zImage-2.6-200702281718-fic-gta01.bin Mar 01 23:50:27 fluffs: I realized that yesterday when making two Li-Po contacts of a 30A capable battery touch the metal frame of my robot :) Mar 01 23:50:29 Mar 01 23:54:14 hmm, I think I'll just stay off this channel for the rest of the week... to finish my robot... the technology seems to be pretty interesting... minor-prize winning level... Mar 01 23:54:47 hmph Mar 01 23:54:50 [cjb@fc6 moko]$ find . -name uImag\* Mar 01 23:54:50 [cjb@fc6 moko]$ Mar 01 23:55:02 lolz Mar 01 23:55:04 Hmm. Mar 01 23:56:07 so... goodbye everyone... and don't be surprised of not seeing me here for a day or 2 :P Mar 01 23:56:19 (well.... maybe just being Idle...) Mar 01 23:59:06 rwhitby: guh. any ideas? it seems like the u-boot binaries weren't even built. Mar 01 23:59:17 cjb - Is the u-boot/tools/mkimage really called? Mar 01 23:59:22 rwhitby: if you have a completed mokomakefile build, do you have any of this stuff? Mar 01 23:59:28 u-boot/tools/mkimage doesn't exist. Mar 01 23:59:58 [cjb@fc6 moko]$ find . -name mkimage Mar 01 23:59:59 [cjb@fc6 moko]$ Mar 02 00:00:01 cjb: oh, that was disabled in mokomakefile for a while cause uboot didn't build. Mar 02 00:00:18 the current mokomakefile should build uboot and uboot-mkimage Mar 02 00:01:03 Hmm - kernel build is failing now ... Mar 02 00:01:32 ah! ok, that makes more sense. so I should pretty much restart a mokomakefile build? Mar 02 00:04:19 Hmm, no idea. Mar 02 00:04:40 rwhitby: in that case, perhaps I do the new mokomakefile up to the point where u-boot is built, then I run the conversion manually. Mar 02 00:05:02 cjb: yep, that should work. Mar 02 00:05:10 I'm looking at the kernel build failure too Mar 02 00:05:50 woot. Mar 02 00:06:01 cjb - I don't know, if it's up to date, but this has some info on building the image by hand: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Migration_to_bad_block_tolerant_builds#Building_the_kernel Mar 02 00:06:07 Elrond: yup. Mar 02 00:14:26 * cjb watches monotone churn. Mar 02 00:14:35 <-- needs to go to bed... Mar 02 00:14:52 looks like the fun will happen tomorrow :) Mar 02 00:15:23 rwhitby: unless there's a good way to go back to my old tree, with updated mokomakefile, and build u-boot? Mar 02 00:16:15 cjb: a "make update-patches update-openmoko" would have done it. I guess I should even turn off update-openembedded until we move from a frozen rev to head Mar 02 00:16:52 rwhitby: I still have the old tree, so can still do that. Mar 02 00:17:13 but I only want to get u-boot, not start a new kernel build etc. Mar 02 00:20:59 Night people. :-) Mar 02 00:28:52 cjb: bitbake -b ..../uboot-svn.bb Mar 02 00:29:46 bitbake uboot-gta01 Mar 02 00:30:02 er.... maybe what rwhitby says ;) Mar 02 00:30:20 jebba: same diff - yours will build any dependencies too Mar 02 00:30:38 yeah, yours is better Mar 02 00:32:53 hm, how should I be calling bitbake? Mar 02 00:33:02 [cjb@fc6 bitbake]$ pwd Mar 02 00:33:02 /mnt/filer/moko-20070227/bitbake Mar 02 00:33:02 [cjb@fc6 bitbake]$ bin/bitbake uboot-gta01 Mar 02 00:33:02 ERROR: Unable to open conf/bitbake.conf Mar 02 00:33:06 Mar 02 00:33:32 cjb: source setup-env Mar 02 00:33:34 cd build Mar 02 00:33:37 bitbake .... Mar 02 00:33:58 (starting from top-level dir) Mar 02 00:34:09 [cjb@fc6 moko-20070227]$ source setup-env Mar 02 00:34:09 [cjb@fc6 moko-20070227]$ cd build Mar 02 00:34:09 [cjb@fc6 build]$ bitbake uboot-gta01 Mar 02 00:34:09 ERROR: Unable to open conf/bitbake.conf Mar 02 00:34:12 Mar 02 00:34:46 (the file exists) Mar 02 00:36:21 hmm - that works here. Mar 02 00:36:38 it does Mar 02 00:36:39 stat64("conf/bitbake.conf", 0xbf9a2e28) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) Mar 02 00:36:40 access("/mnt/filer/moko/build/conf/bitbake.conf", R_OK) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) Mar 02 00:36:40 access("/mnt/filer/moko/oe/conf/bitbake.conf", R_OK) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) Mar 02 00:36:43 access("/mnt/filer/moko/openembedded/conf/bitbake.conf", R_OK) = -1 ENOENT (No such file or directory) Mar 02 00:36:46 Mar 02 00:37:11 it should find the one in openembedded/conf ... Mar 02 00:38:05 oh! Mar 02 00:38:18 the problem is that I moved the dir. that was silly. Mar 02 00:39:14 cjb, i'm not sure how you have things set up (but /mnt makes me wonder). Just to let you know there are warnings in the OE wiki somewhere saying don't use symlinks as it breaks some stuff. Not sure what, but i've read that. ;) Mar 02 00:39:37 sok, building now. Mar 02 00:39:54 Just jumping in here: The web site still says the phone will be available in Feb. Obviously false. "Month or so" means what? March? April? thx Mar 02 00:39:54 pennystinker: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (this autotrigger for new nick and 2 question marks during 15min done only once) Mar 02 00:40:02 cjb: my kernel build failure was a local corrupted download problem - it may well build fine. Mar 02 00:40:13 rwhitby: ah, cool. Mar 02 00:41:01 bonne nuit tlm, faites des bo reves :) Mar 02 00:47:39 ok, u-boot's built. I should run whatever kernel.bb does to go from zImage to uImage. Mar 02 00:50:57 .. I should find the kernel.bb. :) Mar 02 00:51:02 botz cool! Thanks. Good luck guys can't wait to see this puppy! Mar 02 00:51:08 * cjb is still getting used to the directory structure. Mar 02 00:51:29 cjb: have you used OpenEmbedded at all before? Mar 02 00:51:34 Nope. Mar 02 00:57:13 woo! I have a uImage. Mar 02 00:57:36 Let's see if I can load it into RAM and boot from it. Mar 02 00:58:53 right now i can buy the openmoko phone for development only ? Mar 02 01:01:16 sumasuma: right now you can't buy it at all, see /topic Mar 02 01:03:36 cjb: sweet Mar 02 01:05:52 * cjb plays hunt-the-sd-slot, Mar 02 01:06:20 Under the SIM. Mar 02 01:06:24 ah, thanks Mar 02 01:07:14 CoreDump|home: there is nothing called FREE, even is someone developing applications for it ? Mar 02 01:08:23 sumasuma: of course, the OM folks are kinda busy w/ it =) Mar 02 01:09:05 CoreDump|home: thanks for the info. It also has GPS functionalities too ? Mar 02 01:09:24 Yes. Mar 02 01:09:27 Look at the wiki. Mar 02 01:09:35 sumasuma: indeed. wiki.openmoko.org has all the details Mar 02 01:11:32 yes, just checked it. I could not see camera on it, does it has camera too ? Mar 02 01:11:35 no. Mar 02 01:11:42 Nor wifi. Mar 02 01:12:04 Looks bad for a modern phone ! Mar 02 01:12:24 Don't buy it then. :) Mar 02 01:12:55 SpeedEvil: if something is bad, really i will try to improve it to make it better, i will never go away ! Mar 02 01:13:09 Personally, I like the styling. Mar 02 01:13:23 Since it is not released, may be we can suggest the improvements in the hardware Mar 02 01:13:23 I'd prefer a couple more buttons though. Mar 02 01:13:30 sumasuma: openmoko is about the software, not the hardware. Mar 02 01:13:57 sumasuma: please read the mailing list, the question about hardware has been done to death there. Mar 02 01:13:57 rwhitby: if I need wifi, i can make it to work with software, without hardware ? Mar 02 01:14:20 dear darwin, where art thou Mar 02 01:14:30 hmph. it said to hit a key to interrupt boot and I hit a bunch of keys and nothing happened. Mar 02 01:15:09 i c Mar 02 01:15:23 sumasuma: the simple fact is that NeoV1 has a certain hardware configuration, and many suggestions for improvements have been made. we're sick of discussing it, sorry. Mar 02 01:15:28 * cjb tries xc instead. Mar 02 01:15:36 the next phone will be different. and the one after that. Mar 02 01:16:12 rwhitby: yes, understood. Mar 02 01:16:51 and there'll be different phones too, even. if you think this one isn't useful, you're wrong; people aren't saying that about the iphone. Mar 02 01:17:16 and things that aren't phones Mar 02 01:18:42 * cjb wonders which Ubuntu package xc is in. Mar 02 01:22:01 ftp.de.kernel.org keeps serving up bogus downloads. Mar 02 01:22:08 * rwhitby downloads from ftp2.kernel.org instead Mar 02 01:25:35 grr. Mar 02 01:25:38 pullcord:cjb~ % sudo cu -l /dev/ttyUSB1 Mar 02 01:25:38 cu: open (/dev/ttyUSB1): Permission denied Mar 02 01:27:46 a Mar 02 01:29:37 now that I have a good download of linux-2.6.20.1.tar.bz2, the kernel seems to be building ... Mar 02 01:29:57 can anyone else confirm that http://ftp.de.kernel.org/pub/linux/kernel/v2.6/linux-2.6.20.1.tar.bz2 gives broken downloads? Mar 02 01:30:13 (if it does, we should patch the SRC_URI) Mar 02 01:33:51 * SpeedEvil abuses shell server to test Mar 02 01:35:10 48% [================> ] 20,898,984 1.30M/s ETA 00:16 Mar 02 01:35:28 I wish this was my home connection. Mar 02 01:36:30 bzip2 -t says ok. Mar 02 01:36:48 you mean a broken internal archive? Mar 02 01:38:05 gah. minicom doesn't send characters, and everything else says EACCES on /dev/ttyUSB1. Mar 02 01:41:20 md5sum linux-2.6.20.1.tar.bz2 Mar 02 01:41:20 3288ad6c10ba89e85041a8416bd9644d linux-2.6.20.1.tar.bz2 Mar 02 01:41:29 deleted now Mar 02 01:45:58 SpeedEvil: I get a small HTML file :-( Mar 02 01:46:50 containing a refresh thingo point to exactly the same URL Mar 02 01:49:21 I used wget Mar 02 01:49:45 might you be behind a stupid proxy? Mar 02 01:51:10 wget -S url to look at headers Mar 02 01:51:21 guh, finally. at bootloader prompt. Mar 02 01:51:30 :) Mar 02 01:52:54 cjb: woot Mar 02 01:53:31 neat Mar 02 01:53:35 GTA01Bv2 # fatls mmc 0 / Mar 02 01:53:36 1505720 uimage Mar 02 01:53:36 23183360 rootfs.jf2 Mar 02 01:53:50 SpeedEvil: yeah, I used wget too, and don't believe that I'm behind a proxy. Mar 02 01:56:04 odd. Mar 02 01:58:21 yeah. anyway, as it works for you I'll just put it down to a local issue and continue. Mar 02 01:58:32 cjb: kernel build completed fine Mar 02 01:58:48 SpeedEvil: and now the kernel download works :-) Mar 02 01:58:54 so it was a transient thing Mar 02 02:01:50 bonus points for someone who can figure out how to load a kernel into RAM and jump to it. Mar 02 02:01:50 GTA01Bv2 # fatload mmc 0 0x32000000 uImage Mar 02 02:01:51 reading uImage Mar 02 02:01:53 Mar 02 02:01:55 1505720 bytes read Mar 02 02:01:57 now, can I jump, or do I have to overwrite the installed kernel? 'cause, I don't have that much confidence in this one. Mar 02 02:02:02 bah, let's try it. Mar 02 02:02:04 hm Mar 02 02:02:06 GTA01Bv2 # nand erase kernel Mar 02 02:02:08 Mar 02 02:02:10 NAND erase: mtdids not defined, no default present Mar 02 02:02:12 'kernel' is not a number Mar 02 02:02:51 hrr, nearly out of ideas. Mar 02 02:03:05 cjb: sorry, I haven't used u-boot before :-( Mar 02 02:03:10 maybe I have a pre-bbt after all or something and that's why it isn't recognising sections on the nand. Mar 02 02:04:12 maybe it's called uImage? Mar 02 02:04:34 `ext2ls mmc 0` total freakin' guess based on a screenshot in the wiki... Mar 02 02:04:45 I'm following http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot Mar 02 02:04:55 jebba: I already pasted the mmc ls output, that went fine Mar 02 02:08:00 this is to do with partitions/sections on the NAND not being picked up. Mar 02 02:09:39 well, `printenv` may give you the line with mtdparts which may list where the kernel is (if at all) Mar 02 02:10:02 interesting. Mar 02 02:10:06 bootcmd=nand read 0x32000000 0x34000 0x200000; bootm 0x32000000 Mar 02 02:10:17 I think I'm going to try upgrading u-boot. Mar 02 02:11:38 looks like you can tftp a kernel to it too... ala: `tftpboot 0x32000000` but that can be a PITA sometimes... ;) Mar 02 02:11:43 cjb: if you load the kernel from mmc, could you just use bootm to execute it without writing it to nand? Mar 02 02:12:02 rwhitby: that's what I'd like to do. do you know what the bootm command would be? Mar 02 02:12:14 bootm 0x32000000 Mar 02 02:12:30 see " Loading Kernel from NAND" in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot Mar 02 02:12:46 `nand read 0x32000000 kernel` Mar 02 02:12:59 that's to load it into ram from flash Mar 02 02:13:06 cjb loaded it via serial Mar 02 02:13:15 no, from mmc Mar 02 02:13:38 * |PrinCo| #projectoX la nueva sala en español para ayuda sobre temas relacionados con windows y linux ;) todo los temas/probemas sera solucionados ;);) Mar 02 02:13:40 good call Mar 02 02:13:43 Verifying Checksum ... OK Mar 02 02:13:43 Uncompressing Kernel Image ... Error: Bad gzipped data Mar 02 02:13:43 GUNZIP ERROR - must RESET board to recover Mar 02 02:13:54 turns out I don't know how to create uImages after all :) Mar 02 02:14:39 lol Mar 02 02:17:10 ah, I presumed a zImage was already gzipped. I guess it isn't? Mar 02 02:17:39 lol Mar 02 02:17:54 cjb: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/U-boot#Creating_bootable_images Mar 02 02:18:22 isn't u-boot like submarine in german? Mar 02 02:18:23 p'haps Mar 02 02:19:49 hm Mar 02 02:19:52 -rw-r--r-- 1 cjb cjb 1505656 Feb 28 12:30 zImage-2.6-200702281718-fic-gta01.bin Mar 02 02:19:52 -rw-rw-r-- 1 cjb cjb 1495330 Mar 1 21:54 zImage.gz Mar 02 02:19:56 looks pretty gzipped to me Mar 02 02:21:04 lol Mar 02 02:21:23 file zImage-2.6-200702281718-fix-gta01.bin Mar 02 02:21:50 /mnt/filer/moko/build/tmp/deploy/images/zImage-2.6-200702281718-fic-gta01.bin: data Mar 02 02:22:09 wacky. Mar 02 02:22:12 /mnt/filer/moko/build/tmp/deploy/images/zImage-2.6-200702281718-fic-gta01.bin: data Mar 02 02:22:12 weird Mar 02 02:22:21 how about zImage.gz? Mar 02 02:22:21 kmeyer: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (this autotrigger for new nick and 2 question marks during 15min done only once) Mar 02 02:22:34 lol, seen the FAQ Mar 02 02:22:45 correctly detects zImage.gz Mar 02 02:23:26 cjb, did you do the gzipping of it? Mar 02 02:23:26 ok Mar 02 02:23:53 and did you build it with bitbake (one way would be like `bitbake gta01-kernel`) Mar 02 02:24:03 jebba: mokomakefile created the zImage Mar 02 02:24:12 hehe, 1-1 now for last 10 hours: 1 OK trigger, one useless ;-) Mar 02 02:24:14 and would have created the uImage, but was disabled. Mar 02 02:25:07 aloril: nah, it's nice Mar 02 02:25:10 2-0 Mar 02 02:25:53 I'm reading the FAQ in its entirety now Mar 02 02:25:57 cjb: did you kick off a kernel rebuild in the background? Mar 02 02:26:02 because the zImage that is created by linux-gta01_2.6.20.1.bb goes thru all the `uboot-mkimage -A arm -O linux -T kernel -C gzip -a 30008000.........` rigamarole automatically. So it probably shouldn't be gzip'd manually after that (if htat's what you did) Mar 02 02:26:59 NOTE: package openmoko-devel-image-1.0: completed Mar 02 02:27:13 rwhitby: tell me how to? Mar 02 02:27:31 cjb: you did the make update before? Mar 02 02:27:43 no, didn't, sorry. Mar 02 02:27:45 `bitbake linux-gta01` will give you a kernel Mar 02 02:27:52 "make update-patches update-openmoko" Mar 02 02:28:03 (that's fairly quick) Mar 02 02:28:16 yup, done Mar 02 02:28:19 then source setup-env Mar 02 02:28:22 cd build Mar 02 02:28:28 bitbake virtual/kernel Mar 02 02:28:46 thanks! Mar 02 02:28:51 (jebba: went one better than you with the virtual/kernel thing ;-) Mar 02 02:29:14 ;) Mar 02 02:31:53 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r34 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Disable update-mtn for the moment, as it is slow and does nothing while we are at a fixed OE revision. Mar 02 02:32:10 that'll speed up "make update" significantly Mar 02 02:33:49 short interview of Sean, nothing new: http://gigaom.com/2007/03/01/openmoko-phone/ Mar 02 02:34:08 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r35 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Disable update-monotone too, as it depends on update-mtn. Mar 02 02:35:46 (article and) interview with new info: http://voxilla.com/soapvox/2007/03/01/industry-disruption-really-168 Mar 02 02:36:35 "make update" is now 20 seconds real time Mar 02 02:37:01 cjb: I'm off to get some lunch Mar 02 02:37:22 rwhitby: Righto. Mar 02 02:38:57 aloril, voxilla article is nice... Mar 02 02:39:20 umm.. not interview that second, but there is some new info about how it started Mar 02 02:44:16 wikified Mar 02 02:45:05 ok, think I'll leave it here for tonight. I dunno how to solve the NAND erase thing. Mar 02 02:45:30 no! we're all waiting! ;) Mar 02 02:45:44 :) Mar 02 02:47:01 well.. you need to turn protection off before you write some critical sectors (and if you fail, you brick your phone) Mar 02 02:47:39 cjb: I was expecting the new kernel build to give you a file you could load from mmc and boot ... Mar 02 02:47:48 rwhitby: It's still compiling. Mar 02 02:48:11 ah Mar 02 02:48:13 * aloril wonders how much you can do with few months old device Mar 02 02:48:43 ah, there are steps for creating the kernel and jffs2 partitions if one is willing to erase the device. So my plan is: Mar 02 02:48:58 * do kernel build, load/bootm kernel, if works, erase NAND completely, create partitions, write. Mar 02 02:49:26 cjb: including setting it up for bbt? Mar 02 02:49:30 but I have a morning meeting tomorrow so can't stay up tonight. :/ tomorrow it is. Mar 02 02:49:50 cjb: thanks for sharing the journey with us Mar 02 02:49:52 rwhitby: it should already be. Mar 02 02:49:54 sure. Mar 02 02:50:07 the build's finished; it did generate a uImage. Mar 02 02:50:10 hmm... "128 MB SDRAM expandable to 4 GB" (by desoldering and soldering new?) Mar 02 02:50:12 uImage-2.6-moko7-r1-fic-gta01.bin Mar 02 02:50:24 aloril, i'm sure he confused that with SD... Mar 02 02:50:30 i mean SDIO... Mar 02 02:50:40 the SD's only expandable to 2G. Mar 02 02:50:49 jebba: yeah, I guess so Mar 02 02:51:03 though 4GB SDRAM would rock ;) Mar 02 02:51:11 cjb: maybe, but maybe its just software upgrade to get to 4G and beyond .. Mar 02 02:51:39 aloril: nah, think I read on the wiki earlier that it's a lack of hardware SDHC. Mar 02 02:51:42 jebba: when there is USB available, i think we can 500G hard drive to the openmoko :) Mar 02 02:51:48 cjb, he was quoting the voxilla article, which in general was fine (accurate) Mar 02 02:51:56 * rwhitby waits to see if mokomakefile builds bootable images ... Mar 02 02:52:35 cjb: I'll be looking for a MokoMakefile testimonial from you too ;-) Mar 02 02:53:03 4GB RAM, does wonders !, useful for video ipphone Mar 02 02:53:49 cjb: it was me that added the 'probably not 4G wothough SDHC' comment to the wiki. I'm unsure it's accurate, as I've been unable to get anyone with SDHC specs... Mar 02 02:54:21 2G is certainly possible though. Mar 02 02:55:29 I see. Mar 02 02:57:20 Can i connect this phone to Data network and forward the call from data network to the GSM ? Mar 02 02:58:04 sumasuma, like if you connected it to a USB hub which was connected to ethernet, you could do some asterisk magick and do a GSM/VoIP gateway, sure :) Mar 02 02:58:36 that's what my phase-1 phone is destined to end up as ... Mar 02 02:58:51 jebba, that is certainly possible, if possible within the device then absolutely wonderful Mar 02 02:59:09 glove for gesturing: http://www.fibrestructures.com/innovations.html Mar 02 02:59:27 yes, within the device. It's powerful enough for asterisk. I've done it with less (well, not to GSM, but with asterisk), such as on crappy linksys with openwrt Mar 02 02:59:55 why do i think i saw that glove in 1992? ;) Mar 02 02:59:57 * SpeedEvil likes the idea of camera for gestures. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Mar 02 03:00:00 2007