**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 09 02:59:57 2007 Mar 09 03:00:14 rwhitby: Hmm.. I hit a problem. After: Mar 09 03:00:19 wget -c -O OE.mtn.bz2 http://www.openembedded.org/snapshots/OE.mtn.bz2 Mar 09 03:00:32 Next I see: Mar 09 03:00:34 mtn: misuse: database /hda3/moko/OE.mtn is laid out according to an old schema Mar 09 03:00:56 yeah, you need to manually upgrade, cause OE distributes a 0.32 database Mar 09 03:01:15 does it tell you how to do that? Mar 09 03:01:26 I would have thought the temperature around 30 under normal conditions Mar 09 03:01:41 rwhitby: I guess I'm still confused then. I ran into problems with an old monotone, (slow as to be unusable), and now problems with a new monotone. Mar 09 03:01:43 stefan_schmidt: Well anyways thanks and good night Mar 09 03:01:56 rwhitby: It says this: Mar 09 03:01:58 mtn: misuse: try 'mtn db migrate' to upgrade Mar 09 03:01:58 mtn: misuse: (this is irreversible; you may want to make a backup copy first) Mar 09 03:01:58 make: *** [setup-mtn] Error 1 Mar 09 03:02:02 alphaone: It stays at 46 here. night Mar 09 03:02:15 rwhitby: But if that is expected, shouldn't the Makefile just do that? Mar 09 03:02:21 right - you need to upgrade the database from 0.32 format (which OE does the snapshot for) to 0.33 format (which you have) Mar 09 03:02:34 cworth: the procedure changes every version - see the UPGRADE file on the monotone site Mar 09 03:02:42 hm. I wonder if there's a way to upgrade u-boot without using "nand erase u-boot", which isn't working for me 'cause my u-boot doesn't understand nand partitions/ Mar 09 03:02:44 . Mar 09 03:02:58 * cworth is back to being baffled as to why monotone is the tool being used here... Mar 09 03:03:21 alphaone: I get 48 for battemp. Mar 09 03:03:30 rwhitby: Well "mtn db migrate" doesn't work. What's the command I really want? Mar 09 03:03:55 http://monotone.ca/UPGRADE Mar 09 03:03:58 cworth: someone has to use monotone :) Mar 09 03:04:23 cworth: "mtn -d OE.mtn db migrate" ? Mar 09 03:04:40 I'm just baffled that the sample at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Kernel#Battery_temperature reads 25 Mar 09 03:04:55 rwhitby: closer? Mar 09 03:04:57 $ mtn -d OE.mtn migrate Mar 09 03:04:57 mtn: misuse: workspace required but not found Mar 09 03:05:11 cworth: you missed the 'db' Mar 09 03:05:45 rwhitby: Oh, whoops. Thanks. Mar 09 03:06:17 I guess I can put that command in there for the case where the exact versioned file is not found. Mar 09 03:06:31 (since that's likely to be 0.32->0.33 right now) Mar 09 03:08:32 rwhitby: Sure, and if you wanted to be really safe you could version-check mtn first. Mar 09 03:08:40 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r49 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added a db migrate step after the mtn database download, just in case. Mar 09 03:08:59 Okay, my Neo is charging again. Night all Mar 09 03:09:46 cworth: that should cover 95% of the cases (since OE distributes the correct db format for 0.31 back to 0.27 I think) Mar 09 03:10:09 so it's really only the 0.25 and 0.33 cases which it needs to handle. Mar 09 03:10:26 for 0.25, it will barf, but it couldn't have fixed it anyway, so they won't be any worse off. Mar 09 03:10:32 for 0.33 it will magically work. Mar 09 03:17:26 openmoko: 03caowai_song * r1297 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-keyboard/src/matchbox-keyboard-ui.c: Mar 09 03:17:26 openmoko: At the realsize mode, Write the keyboard width and height to Mar 09 03:17:26 openmoko: the key_uwidth and key_uheight in the MBKeyboardUI. Mar 09 03:19:31 rwhitby: cool, thanks Mar 09 03:20:23 rwhitby: What am I missing without this: Mar 09 03:20:26 NOTE: Psyco JIT Compiler (http://psyco.sf.net) not available. Install it to increase performance. Mar 09 03:21:02 nothing much these days Mar 09 03:21:10 it speeds up bitbake a bit Mar 09 03:21:15 OK Mar 09 03:21:18 used to be a lot, when bitbake was real slow. Mar 09 03:21:33 * cworth lets this churn for a bit... Mar 09 03:21:46 psyco doesn't work on 64bit boxes, btw Mar 09 03:24:12 * rwhitby ssh's into the neo from an nslu2 Mar 09 03:24:19 (via usbnet) Mar 09 03:28:57 rwhitby, fwiw, at the moment i'm getting this: "svn: Failed to add directory 'trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-pim': object of the same name already exists" I blew out that dir, but the error persists. Mar 09 03:29:28 jebba: I got that too, but blowing away that dir fixed it. Mar 09 03:29:46 (dunno why the moko svn is doing that) Mar 09 03:32:03 well, i just `rm -rf`d it again and it gives the same error. So you got lucky ;) Mar 09 03:32:47 wait, me notes he didn't really blow out the correct path.... Mar 09 03:33:20 ok, correction: blowing out that dir and now `make update` goes happily. Mar 09 03:33:32 sweet Mar 09 03:36:35 rwhitby, would you find any value in something that `while true ; do make update all ;done` ... and put the images or logs or whatever up on ftp? Mar 09 03:37:42 openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1298 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): gsmd got the incoming status OK, so the previous timeout mechanism is no more needed. the incoming disconnect can be detected immediately now. Mar 09 03:38:31 jebba: LaF0rge does that already Mar 09 03:38:43 ah ok Mar 09 03:39:01 on buildhost.openmoko.org Mar 09 03:39:24 (I believe OM intends to do that officially and continuously) Mar 09 03:40:00 rwhitby: yes, it seems like they planned to have it on downloads.openmoko.org Mar 09 03:40:15 (buildhost-old.openmoko.org has the old releases before their build machine had a hardware problem) Mar 09 03:41:14 (i.e. there hasn't be a snapshot or a release since the move to the new machine, but there are old releases and snapshots on buildhost-old) Mar 09 03:42:14 rwhitby, there's images there (?): http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images Mar 09 03:43:08 jebba: right - those are like "nightly builds", rather than known good snapshots or supported releases Mar 09 03:50:25 does anyone know a resource on how touchpad handwriting recognition works? general algorithms, etc? Mar 09 03:51:22 touchpad handwriting recognition? huh> Mar 09 03:51:24 ? Mar 09 03:51:54 you mean stylus, or just "recognise this bitmap as a set of characters" recognition? Mar 09 03:52:01 the main input device on the neo is a touchpad. you could for example write a letter A, and some software woudlrecognize it, how does that work Mar 09 03:52:01 people usually use either neural nets or spring models Mar 09 03:52:43 http://yann.lecun.com/exdb/lenet/index.html is the best neural net I've seen Mar 09 03:53:57 is that patented? Mar 09 03:54:11 no, it's published. Mar 09 03:57:15 peepsalot: have you looked at the source for the current handwriting recognition? Mar 09 03:57:58 gabaug, no i haven't. i wouldn't even know where to look Mar 09 03:58:16 I'd start at svn.openmoko.org Mar 09 03:58:46 though it might be a standard software package from OE or something, I don't know Mar 09 04:01:25 http://svnweb.openmoko.org/ rather Mar 09 04:03:13 yeah, i still have no clue what package i am looking for Mar 09 04:04:21 it's a panel applet that launches/controls it Mar 09 04:04:25 I'm looking too Mar 09 04:04:54 i wasn't even sure that it existed yet for openmoko Mar 09 04:05:10 it does Mar 09 04:05:15 it shipped w/ the phase0 phones Mar 09 04:05:25 are you a p0 dev? Mar 09 04:05:32 yes Mar 09 04:05:37 cool Mar 09 04:05:57 does the handwriting recognition work well? Mar 09 04:06:39 yes, for most characters...I probably just need to read some documentation about some others Mar 09 04:07:13 there's definitely room for improvement though Mar 09 04:09:18 there is http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-keyboard/ Mar 09 04:09:26 you can add that applet to your panel Mar 09 04:09:42 and then it has a dropdown arrow that lets you change it to the handwriting recognition Mar 09 04:10:01 I'm still looking for the actual code for that though.. Mar 09 04:12:08 what is this chordmaster? Mar 09 04:12:44 eh, some kind of guitar thing, nm Mar 09 04:12:45 my guess is a tool for emitting/testing pitches/chords Mar 09 04:13:31 for some reason i though chord might be another word for a handwritten pattern or something Mar 09 04:16:40 i am wondering if there is something where a user can define there own patterns that would act as shortcuts Mar 09 04:22:10 gabaug, what did you mean by "spring models" do you have a link for an example of this? Mar 09 04:22:47 peepsalot: I don't think I said that...what do you mean? Mar 09 04:23:04 whoops, that was cjb Mar 09 04:23:22 he probably meant phase1 Mar 09 04:23:51 no, for pattern recognition: "people usually use either neural nets or spring models" Mar 09 04:24:37 peepsalot: this looks promising: http://svn.o-hand.com/view/matchbox/trunk/matchbox-stroke/ Mar 09 04:26:05 I'm pretty sure that's it Mar 09 04:26:18 thanks a lot! Mar 09 04:26:27 peepsalot: sure Mar 09 04:26:32 I was curious too Mar 09 04:27:30 I think this is the applet/code that does the dropdown switcher I mentioned: http://svn.o-hand.com/view/matchbox/trunk/mb-applet-input-manager/ Mar 09 04:30:21 rwhitby: Hmm... "make openmoko-devel-image" failed as follows: Mar 09 04:30:29 | /bin/sh @MKINSTALLDIRS@ /hda3/moko/build/tmp/staging/i686-linux/share Mar 09 04:30:29 | /bin/sh: @MKINSTALLDIRS@: No such file or directory Mar 09 04:30:29 | make[3]: *** [install-data-yes] Error 127 Mar 09 04:30:37 gabaug: what sort of things have you been working on since you got your p0? Mar 09 04:30:43 | make[3]: Leaving directory `/hda3/moko/build/tmp/work/i686-linux/gettext-native-0.14.1-r4/gettext-0.14.1/gettext-runtime/po' Mar 09 04:32:49 peepsalot: Ah, if it's xstroke, then I'm probably to blame for it. Mar 09 04:33:25 peepsalot: The original xstroke engine I wrote, (no idea if it's changed since), was extremely simple, (much simpler than anything like neural networks or spring models). Mar 09 04:34:12 peepsalot: All it did was qantize the sequence of input positions into a series of 9 locations on a 3x3 grid and then do regexp-based pattern matching on the resulting sequence. Mar 09 04:34:25 It was really cheap, easy to code, and surprisingly effective. Mar 09 04:34:48 interesting Mar 09 04:35:26 peepsalot: The current interface running on the neo has some problems though compared to what I originally did for xstroke: Mar 09 04:35:45 1. It runs in a little bix instead of full-screen, (so it robs a bunch of space from the application of interest) Mar 09 04:36:14 2. The drawing of the stroke lags the stylus motion considerably---that introduces a serious limit on the maximum speed of character entry Mar 09 04:36:37 peepsalot: Anyway, here's a paper I wrote about the stuff I did on xstroke: Mar 09 04:36:40 http://cworth.org/~cworth/papers/xstroke/ Mar 09 04:41:16 nice, cworth Mar 09 04:50:39 do you know any resources about spring models used in recognition? when I search i just find physics simulators for games, etc. Mar 09 05:20:38 peepsalot: Nope. I don't know anything about it. Mar 09 05:21:33 peepsalot: You could probably find some general stuff about constructing feature vectors and computing vector distances, etc. Mar 09 06:04:51 so... now that the P0 phones are out has anyone tried to answer the really important question??? How many frames per second do you get in DOOM2 ? Mar 09 06:05:18 hehehe Mar 09 06:06:08 Or even TTYQuake? Mar 09 06:06:23 id imagine that would be easer to get running Mar 09 06:06:46 imagine a beowulf cluster of Neo's, communicating over bluetooth Mar 09 06:06:52 :p Mar 09 06:18:16 Psi_: added that at [[Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review]] ? ;-) Mar 09 06:18:48 you have or you are asking me too? Mar 09 06:19:36 asking you (s/added/have you added/) Mar 09 06:20:02 * aloril recalls some doom or quake version running on some ARM device Mar 09 06:21:29 ive not added it Mar 09 06:21:48 and the wiki annoys me, its quite hard to find stuff sometimes Mar 09 06:27:07 feel free to add it Mar 09 06:35:56 where I can get a P1? Mar 09 06:48:24 openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1299 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/ (5 files in 2 dirs): Mar 09 06:48:24 openmoko: Update configure.ac for send_signal_to_footer. Mar 09 06:48:24 openmoko: Update cb_frBtn_clicked to close the Rename Folder Window, shall we need Mar 09 06:48:24 openmoko: a result dialog for success/fail? Mar 09 06:48:24 openmoko: Update cb_new_folder to close the New Folder Window. Mar 09 06:48:26 openmoko: Fix the message membership window bug by modify cb_mmitem_activate. Mar 09 06:51:18 jackey: no where yet, not even preorder Mar 09 06:51:52 jackey: subscribe to announce list to know when: http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/announce Mar 09 06:51:52 how come someone has two p1 Mar 09 06:52:00 GOOD MORNING EveryOne! Mar 09 06:52:08 :) Mar 09 06:52:11 p1? where? Mar 09 06:52:23 jackey, can't be.. Mar 09 06:52:46 jackey: please substantiate that claim. Mar 09 06:52:57 i was talking to someone here before Mar 09 06:53:08 please substantiate some fried egg with bacon for me pls! Mar 09 06:53:19 * xkr47 dreams up an breakfast Mar 09 06:53:26 haha Mar 09 06:53:37 just try to get one Neo Mar 09 06:53:46 poor guy i am Mar 09 06:54:07 morning, it is 11PM in SF now Mar 09 06:54:25 jackey: maybe you are talking about P0? Mar 09 06:54:33 good for you! it's 8:54 am here and I intend to go by that timezone, mind you :) Mar 09 06:54:48 (though core team could have test version of P1, who knows) Mar 09 06:55:18 nope, not that we've heard (and we would hear) Mar 09 06:56:06 i do not care, just want to get one Mar 09 06:57:26 jackey: get in line ;-) Mar 09 06:57:34 counter Mar 09 06:57:34 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 05:02:25 (23.210 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (507) Mar 09 06:57:40 ~ugt Mar 09 06:57:41 well, ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Mar 09 06:59:08 good morning Mar 09 06:59:24 morning :) Mar 09 07:00:16 http://www.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601103&sid=aBsMTK3Z3uiQ&refer=news Mar 09 07:01:28 aloril, get in line for what? Mar 09 07:02:36 neo running GPE? Mar 09 07:03:54 jackey: figuratively, line waiting for P1 to appear ;-) Mar 09 07:04:59 when when when , where where where Mar 09 07:05:04 ：－） Mar 09 07:05:24 openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1300 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/ (callbacks.c main.c): Remove all window's title. Mar 09 07:06:08 jackey: subscribe to announce mailing list (link above), when: my best guess currently based on mailing list mail is above counter Mar 09 07:06:46 do you know neo is running GPE or not? Mar 09 07:06:55 the UI looks really cool Mar 09 07:08:27 faq Mar 09 07:08:27 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 09 07:09:09 not very much about it Mar 09 07:11:05 you read about openmoko which is linked from faq? Mar 09 07:24:42 good morning. Mar 09 07:25:40 morning aevin Mar 09 07:25:52 aloril: have you been hacking all night? Mar 09 07:26:01 +neo Mar 09 07:26:36 no, I go sleeping early usually and awake early too Mar 09 07:27:10 I go to sleep late and get awakened early :-P Mar 09 07:29:54 :-) Mar 09 07:30:45 any news about how the frequency characteristics of the Neo1973 speakers are, or should I add it as an "Q" on the P0 review wiki page? Mar 09 07:31:30 wansti should know some since he's testing the ring signals and so Mar 09 07:31:43 But I haven't seen any specifications Mar 09 07:31:58 Don't expect much response below 200Hz. Mar 09 07:31:58 Add the Q :) Mar 09 07:32:10 They should be fine from there ish to 15Khz or so. Mar 09 07:32:12 i mean, i don't require scientific measureing, morely whether they're really treble-ish or acceptably low band etc. Mar 09 07:32:20 SpeedEvil: okay. Mar 09 07:32:36 i'll add a Q anyways, if someone wants to elaborate on that. Mar 09 07:32:37 :) Mar 09 07:32:41 Yeah. Mar 09 07:32:59 Find a nice frequency sweep mp3 that someone can play and record Mar 09 07:40:16 SpeedEvil: i found some sweeps: http://www.dr-lex.34sp.com/macast/mp3test.html#Sweeps Mar 09 07:54:25 hmmm. the video bounty annouced at the community ML and old wiki doesn't count for the hardware refreshed Neo1973 (P1.5), do you think? Mar 09 07:54:29 ;-) Mar 09 07:54:45 *announced Mar 09 08:21:17 counter Mar 09 08:21:18 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 03:38:42 (23.152 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (508) Mar 09 09:14:19 openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1301 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-taskmanager/src/ (callbacks.c taskmanager.c): remove finger wheel bottom button clicked callback function Mar 09 09:16:00 moin Mar 09 09:20:19 morning Mar 09 09:20:28 good morning Mar 09 09:36:33 PBeck|off: Phase 2 counter: /msg aloril counter? Mar 09 09:46:54 did anyone try flashing a new u-boot from inside u-boot yet? Mar 09 09:49:16 blog, ETel, some comments about OpenMoko: "...if you wanted to replace all the numbers on the touch-screen keypad with little dancing hamsters, you could" http://blogblender.faludi.com/?p=2138 ;-) Mar 09 09:51:49 now that's an _excellent_ idea Mar 09 09:53:04 Debian, RootSync, OpenMoko: http://swik.net/Debian/Planet+Debian/Joey+Hess:+embedding+debian/z5h7 Mar 09 09:54:37 Hi can anyone help me in getting the IRC channel info for KANNEL Open Source? Mar 09 09:55:17 aloril: what kind of site is that swik? Mar 09 09:56:20 Hi can anyone help me in getting the IRC channel info for KANNEL Open Source? Mar 09 09:56:44 hrw: dunno, it was just linked from google blog search Mar 09 10:00:20 Hi can anyone help me in getting the IRC channel info for KANNEL Open Source? Mar 09 10:01:27 sureshkumar: it's a bit impolite to ask the same question again. Their website says #kannel, have you tried there? Mar 09 10:13:45 good morning Mar 09 10:15:14 sureshkumar: there is nobody 'home' in that channel, it clearly exists though (topic is set) Mar 09 10:15:49 openmoko: 03werner * r1302 10/trunk/src/host/dfu-util/src/main.c: Mar 09 10:15:49 openmoko: main.c (main): moved alternate setting lookup to so that print_dfu_if prints Mar 09 10:15:49 openmoko: the correct information; removed now superfluous success report Mar 09 10:23:11 so_solid_moo: there are many irc networks.. Mar 09 10:23:28 hrw: indeed, but their site indicates they're on this one. Mar 09 10:24:44 kannel is developed still? Mar 09 10:26:01 mpf Mar 09 10:26:13 why does oo always crash when i'm in a hurry Mar 09 10:31:09 buz: s/when i'm in a hurry/?/ ;) Mar 09 10:31:25 no usually its really stable for me Mar 09 10:31:31 slow maybe but not crashy Mar 09 10:31:42 Guess I should give it a try again Mar 09 10:39:23 a note of warning: u-boot images created from .dev do _not_ work yet! Mar 09 10:39:53 * CoreDump|afk connects debug board... Mar 09 10:41:40 CoreDump|afk: does usbnet work for you in the oe built images? Mar 09 10:41:49 florian: yeah Mar 09 10:43:01 counter Mar 09 10:43:01 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, 2 days 01:16:58 (23.053 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (509) Mar 09 10:45:19 CoreDump|afk: hrm strange Mar 09 10:45:53 ifdown usb0 && ifup usb0 ; ssh 192.168.0.202 Mar 09 10:46:06 flashing my image now.. Mar 09 10:46:35 http://rafb.net/p/ApclnK17.html Mar 09 10:47:00 hmm... i wonder what went wrong here Mar 09 10:50:07 shit. forgot to erase nand before flashing Mar 09 10:50:40 i added padding to the machine conf here.... should i push this maybe? Mar 09 10:53:13 poor aux key... Mar 09 11:02:10 So OE has a strict requirement for Python 2.4 at least now. Mar 09 11:06:00 florian: --pad was enabled already in .dex Mar 09 11:06:03 .dev Mar 09 11:06:21 florian: in fic-gta01.conf Mar 09 11:06:44 rwhitby: where is that dep? Mar 09 11:06:44 zecke_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 09 11:07:01 yo Mar 09 11:07:01 zecke_: package QA uses rsplit Mar 09 11:07:22 so that rules out RHEL4 and CentOS4 for use with OE Mar 09 11:07:39 (and therefore OpenMoko too) Mar 09 11:07:39 anyone knows when the phone will be on sale in europe ? Mar 09 11:07:58 CoreDump|afk: yes, but only to the end of the block and not for the full flash?! Mar 09 11:08:15 rwhitby: let me try to remember why I have used rsplit Mar 09 11:08:16 btb Mar 09 11:08:17 brb Mar 09 11:08:18 florian: oops =) I thought --pad was enough? Mar 09 11:09:03 zecke_: thx - I have been using CentOS4 for OE builds for two years now, and this is the only thing which now stops me Mar 09 11:09:56 CoreDump|afk: no, that only fills the last block that was started Mar 09 11:10:11 i see Mar 09 11:14:54 w000t Mar 09 11:15:02 !praise devirginator Mar 09 11:15:03 * cdbot2 bows down to devirginator and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Mar 09 11:15:26 the new splascreen is cool, but the old one was nicer ;) Mar 09 11:15:55 I tested angstrom image for openmoko and looks like it is time to switch to openmoko ones or get time to find what is fscked in A Mar 09 11:19:21 recent uboot got 'no powerdown during dfu'? Mar 09 11:20:37 hrw: that's what I was trying to find out when the OE udev bricked my neo... Mar 09 11:20:44 I do not have toolchain to build uboot Mar 09 11:21:14 well, LaF0rge has uploaded new binaries somewhere Mar 09 11:21:35 http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ maybe? Mar 09 11:21:43 CoreDump|afk: you bricked your neo? Mar 09 11:21:44 yeah Mar 09 11:21:59 vmaster: well, yes. Unbricking now Mar 09 11:22:22 not much of a brick if you can unbrick it without soldering ;-) Mar 09 11:22:52 rwhitby: well, I had to JTAG it :\ That's bricked enough for me =) Mar 09 11:23:11 !praise ./devirginate -1 -2 Mar 09 11:23:13 * cdbot2 bows down to ./devirginate -1 -2 and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" Mar 09 11:23:42 ok, round two of the "I wanna upgrade u-boot" game Mar 09 11:28:51 * CoreDump|afk thinks neo needs a better way to get into the boot-menu.... Mar 09 11:34:25 CoreDump|afk: that one is simple Mar 09 11:34:51 ac off, battery off, battery in, aux hold, press power Mar 09 11:34:54 simple Mar 09 11:35:49 hrw: The power button is killing me ;) Mar 09 11:36:02 why? Mar 09 11:36:20 it is kinda difficult to press Mar 09 11:37:37 CoreDump|afk: I think the Aux is harder to press Mar 09 11:37:41 no problems with mine Mar 09 11:37:42 no here Mar 09 11:37:44 * rwhitby wants to be able to devirginate a neo without having to touch it in any way. Mar 09 11:37:44 aux button suxx Mar 09 11:37:45 good morning Mar 09 11:38:04 rwhitby: devirginating needs touching.. Mar 09 11:38:37 hrw: I want a long distance relationship with my Neo, so I can devirginate it remotely. Mar 09 11:38:48 (when it's on my test rig at work) Mar 09 11:40:38 hi alphaone Mar 09 11:41:28 GTA01Bv3 # nand write 0x32000000 u-boot Mar 09 11:41:28 NAND write: device 0 offset 0x0, size 0x40000 Mar 09 11:41:28 262144 bytes written: OK Mar 09 11:41:35 * CoreDump|afk resets Mar 09 11:42:07 You can only guaranteedly re-write the first block 1000 times, remember :) Mar 09 11:43:03 heh Mar 09 11:43:15 ok, what's the deal Mar 09 11:43:32 u-boot.bin from om.org doesn't work either grrr Mar 09 11:46:04 * CoreDump|afk tricks devirginator into flashing the new image Mar 09 11:46:54 maybe aloril could setup a CoreDump counter? 1000, 999, 998, ... ;) Mar 09 11:47:05 not funny :\ Mar 09 11:47:34 looks like you can't upgrade u-boot from within u-boot even if the wiki says otherwise Mar 09 11:49:27 My first phone call with the Neo Mar 09 11:49:39 alphaone: !!! Mar 09 11:49:52 alphaone: did you mic work? Mar 09 11:49:56 wansti one moment Mar 09 11:50:06 alphaone: call me call me call me!!! Mar 09 11:50:07 :-P Mar 09 11:50:17 I could only get my speaker to work - they couldn't hear me talking into my mic. Mar 09 11:50:40 rwhitby: http://opensource.wolfsonmicro.com/~gg/gsmheadset.working.state Mar 09 11:50:57 ah, the .working. is the trick, hey? Mar 09 11:51:17 jup Mar 09 11:51:33 * rwhitby wget's from the neo Mar 09 11:52:23 ohmy - it's full in here :) Mar 09 11:55:02 brb, phone :-D Mar 09 11:56:11 it works :-D Mar 09 12:00:48 muwahaha Mar 09 12:06:49 Hopscotch: Welcome to the crowd ;) Mar 09 12:07:21 thanks - hi ho Mar 09 12:07:36 i guess, i'm one of the few lucky ones :) Mar 09 12:11:55 GTA01Bv3 # version Mar 09 12:11:55 U-Boot 1.2.0-moko5 (Mar 9 2007 - 00:08:25) Mar 09 12:11:58 * CoreDump|afk cheers Mar 09 12:12:43 CoreDump|afk: new one without powerdown on dfu? Mar 09 12:13:10 hrw: new one, yeah. Dunno about the powerdown tho Mar 09 12:14:33 * CM pimps http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Summer_of_code Mar 09 12:14:48 hrw: the "boot_menu_timeout work-around works nicely tho Mar 09 12:14:49 3 days to go.. Mar 09 12:17:42 wansti - I already cited you, but anonymously. If you want, I'll add "this was wansti". :) Mar 09 12:21:25 Elrond: sure, go ahead Mar 09 12:37:22 meeehhhhh Mar 09 12:37:30 * CoreDump|afk forgot to nand erase Mar 09 12:46:26 that SummerofCode timeframe seems kinda narrow Mar 09 12:47:30 one would expect google to like anything that's related to google maps Mar 09 12:59:46 Not if it cuts into their ad revenue. Mar 09 13:02:42 hihi. I wonder, if they would allow openstreetmap projects. ;o) Mar 09 13:03:13 my neo just arrived :) no debug board for me though :( Mar 09 13:03:20 are there p0 devs with debug boards in berlin? Mar 09 13:04:17 pH5 - Does it have a protective screen foil applied? Mar 09 13:05:45 pH5: did you look into the phone-bag? Mar 09 13:07:42 Elrond: one that is supposed to be peeled off? yes. Mar 09 13:07:55 Hopscotch: yes Mar 09 13:08:12 pH5: :( Mar 09 13:08:22 * rwhitby always thinks "tin foil" when he sees "foil" and wonders how people see through their screen protector ... Mar 09 13:08:32 pH5: zecke and LaF0rge are both in Berlin. Not sure if zecke has a debug board Mar 09 13:08:45 LaF0rge has one for sure Mar 09 13:09:28 pH5 - Hmm. is it supposed to be pealed of, or is the supposed to stay there? Mar 09 13:09:41 hrw: He also has debug board v1 with this sweet big red button. :) Mar 09 13:10:32 stefan_schmidt - As you seem to know a fair bit about g_serial: Is it opossible to put the kernel console on it? Mar 09 13:11:50 Elrond: hmm, never thought of this. Could be difficult as it uses USB. For what usage? Mar 09 13:12:30 stefan_schmidt - For all those without debug board, but who want to do kernel devel. Mar 09 13:12:43 hmmm, big red button, hmmmm Mar 09 13:12:46 * noidd drools Mar 09 13:13:11 noidd - Is (your) neo droolproof? ;o)) Mar 09 13:14:07 stefan_schmidt - For example this bug could not have a oops-trace attached without the debug board: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245 Mar 09 13:14:11 Elrond: You mean for oopses, etc? No idea. If I find something about it I let you know. Mar 09 13:14:15 not since I removed the screen cover :-P Mar 09 13:14:48 I still obsess over the plastic case Mar 09 13:15:03 there is something about the texture of that plastic that makes me think of it as alien technology Mar 09 13:15:10 I can't explain it Mar 09 13:15:51 Elrond: Indeed I directly used the debug board instead trying g_serial. Could be worth some research. Mar 09 13:17:37 noidd - psscht. fic really is trying to rule the world using alien technology. ;o) Mar 09 13:21:36 Elrond: At least in the mainline code I see no reference for g_serial as kernel console. It just appears as ttygs* on the device. Mar 09 13:25:01 stefan_schmidt - Hmm. I'm not really a kernel developer, so I probably should not ask further about this. ;) Mar 09 13:26:09 Elrond: heh, if I found something intersting for you I let you know. Mar 09 13:26:37 stefan_schmidt - :-)) Mar 09 13:27:18 stefan_schmidt - BTW: I like the idea to route ttySAC* to g_serial. :-) Mar 09 13:28:09 Elrond: yeah, the EZX phone have something similar in the bootloader. This is really nice for rapid developing and testing. Mar 09 13:28:26 * pH5 wishes he had that vga screen on his magician Mar 09 13:28:33 stefan_schmidt: are there any news on the qvga theme? Mar 09 13:29:22 pH5: Sadly not. My last status was Sean's promise to talk to the designers. Mar 09 13:30:04 I guess the designers are busy working for the neo. Mar 09 13:30:05 pH5: mickey|austria is on vacation right know and Sean has his 'normal 3 countries a week' travel plan. :( Mar 09 13:30:21 Elrond: No. Working on openmoko.com launch. Mar 09 13:37:55 stefan_schmidt - Ahh. Mar 09 13:38:16 tihi... Bug#77 looks somewhat "internal" ;) Mar 09 13:38:37 Elrond: But don't expect anything before end of march. Mar 09 13:40:43 stefan_schmidt - I'm not panicing. :) Mar 09 13:43:22 Elrond: well that's good no that they do not try to hide those things :-) Mar 09 13:44:00 http://img215.imageshack.us/img215/2881/20070309foobar2000re1.jpg <-- OpenMoko based theme for PalmOS App Launcher for the Zodiac :) Mar 09 13:44:07 err Mar 09 13:44:13 wonrg link Mar 09 13:44:25 http://www.1src.com/freeware/index.php?cid=111 this is it Mar 09 14:00:26 openmoko: 03werner * r1303 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/dont-repeat.patch: Mar 09 14:00:26 openmoko: common/main.c (main_loop): new flag CONFIG_DONT_REPEAT to suppress automatic Mar 09 14:00:26 openmoko: repetition of previous command Mar 09 14:00:26 openmoko: include/configs/neo1973.h: added CONFIG_DONT_REPEAT Mar 09 14:04:29 hi Mar 09 14:04:38 openmoko running GPE something? Mar 09 14:04:44 the UI looks pretty cool Mar 09 14:05:00 faq? Mar 09 14:05:01 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 09 14:05:54 i did, but can not find any information about it Mar 09 14:06:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMokoFramework Mar 09 14:06:49 feel free to peruse other areas of the wiki too Mar 09 14:06:51 matchbox? Mar 09 14:07:12 yes Mar 09 14:07:22 matchbox2 even Mar 09 14:09:58 not matchbox 1.1? Mar 09 14:11:34 jackey: matchbox2 use gtk instead of xlib Mar 09 14:12:51 thx guys, trying to catch up Mar 09 14:13:42 anyway i can simulate the UI on x86? Mar 09 14:14:01 yes Mar 09 14:14:03 Yes, use Xoo and Xephyr or xnest :) Mar 09 14:14:14 I think there's more about that in the wiki Mar 09 14:14:32 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC Mar 09 14:14:45 linked on the front page Mar 09 14:18:52 stefan_schmidt: just about any nvidia based amd board should work nicely with linux Mar 09 14:19:20 buz: nvidia and work nicely? Mar 09 14:19:27 never had issues with nforce Mar 09 14:19:34 which parts of neo is not open source? Mar 09 14:19:49 hrw: not graphic, but motherboard chips Mar 09 14:20:12 buz: at previous work we had computer with 2 gigE nvidia onboard. had to use pci cheap realtek to get machine workin Mar 09 14:20:22 in fact, aside of ati igp chipsets, i have never seen any motherboard having issues under linux Mar 09 14:20:35 buz: my ati igp board works Mar 09 14:20:43 now they do Mar 09 14:20:46 There is the almost universal 'AMD does not properly powersave in stock' ones. Mar 09 14:20:50 buz: My main problem is to find a board with fitting components. It's a jungle for. But I already got some good board suggstions. Mar 09 14:21:05 At least older chips. Mar 09 14:21:12 just about any 2 socket baord should come with gigabit Mar 09 14:21:12 jackey the software on the gsm-processor and the lib for agps Mar 09 14:21:33 stefan_schmidt: I just have to question the "one 400gb disk" thing Mar 09 14:21:37 My older motherboard would actually powersave down to near room-temp, but the sound/network/usb wouldn't work. Mar 09 14:21:38 any other stacks? Mar 09 14:21:58 stefan_schmidt: Won't it be a lot of disk access if you'll compile a lot? Mar 09 14:22:04 personally i doubt this will work in the 1500EUR range Mar 09 14:22:06 Mirroring, and a _large_ RAM cache may help. Mar 09 14:22:14 run compiles in ramdrive Mar 09 14:22:17 jackey: only if you work for TI Mar 09 14:22:20 with 4GB ram that should easily work Mar 09 14:22:28 With 4G of memory, most stuff should stay in RAM. Mar 09 14:23:04 not if alan cox has his way Mar 09 14:23:24 heck even with swappiness=0 i still see swapping i dont want Mar 09 14:23:28 Worst case, RAMdisk :) Mar 09 14:23:33 'Laptop mode'. Mar 09 14:23:33 rwhitby, i mean bluetooth stack Mar 09 14:23:45 To set the 'reduce disk access at all costs' flag. Mar 09 14:23:47 everything else is open source Mar 09 14:23:55 It will use bluez Mar 09 14:24:03 laptop mode somehow does weird thigns on my toshiba notebook Mar 09 14:24:09 could be a ubuntu thing though Mar 09 14:25:21 jackey - bluetooth is a standard BT chip connected via usb. Mar 09 14:25:28 buz: 1500 should be ok. 300 motherboard, 600 CPUs, 300 RAM, 100 HDD, 200 rest Mar 09 14:25:31 i c Mar 09 14:25:47 you want a VERY good psu for that Mar 09 14:26:01 those generally run >150EUR alone Mar 09 14:26:12 Yeah - 600 CPU's will take a bit of juice. Mar 09 14:26:33 SpeedEvil: heh Mar 09 14:26:53 openmoko: 03werner * r1304 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/dont-repeat.patch: Rejected. Mar 09 14:26:56 buz: I already have a tower, so PSU 150 should be ok. Mar 09 14:26:58 I'd drop the CPU a bit maybe, and more disk. Mar 09 14:27:11 buz: 1600 is also ok. Mar 09 14:27:16 jackey - And the agps has lots of talk, so hoping for some free replacement isn't completely off the record. Mar 09 14:27:20 maybe core 2 quad would be cheaper Mar 09 14:27:22 SpeedEvil: perhaps Mar 09 14:27:24 stefan_schmidt: got a few networked boxes for ccache and distcc? Mar 09 14:27:49 the core 2 quad is seriously bandwidth starved though Mar 09 14:28:07 buz: And it's surely not cheap.. Mar 09 14:28:17 possible cheaper than dual core opterons Mar 09 14:28:17 Stephmw: nah, one machine for my office is fine. Mar 09 14:28:24 or possibly not Mar 09 14:28:28 I have real doubts that the GPS will be replaced with a more free one. The hardware looks good. And in a month or so whern the driver arrives, ... Mar 09 14:28:57 there's a 4*1,86ghz xeon for ~400EUR Mar 09 14:29:08 Everyone seen amazon's virtual compute cloud? 'nimble' servers. You want a hundred servers in the next minute booted from the same image, sure! Mar 09 14:29:18 Pay per hour-image. Mar 09 14:29:27 yeah Mar 09 14:29:38 but it's a pain to use for really short bursts Mar 09 14:29:39 Prolly not a good idea if you're going to be running it flat out. Mar 09 14:30:03 hehe. Mar 09 14:30:25 SpeedEvil - You mean, when the binary is there, everyone will be happy with it and bobody is going to reverse engeneer it? Mar 09 14:30:27 When the driver for the GPS arrives, I'd expect someone to reverse engineer it pretty quickly. Mar 09 14:30:55 Ahh, exactly what I meant by "hope is realistic". Mar 09 14:31:23 After that it will be free. ;) Mar 09 14:32:01 SpeedEvil: another problem with EC2... signup is currently closed - I'm waiting to host stuff on there Mar 09 14:33:02 ec2? Mar 09 14:33:30 Amazon's Computing Cloud Mar 09 14:33:44 Ahh. Mar 09 14:34:24 What do they host there? Mar 09 14:34:47 anything... you upload a system image (essentially a xen instance) Mar 09 14:34:57 google it :) Mar 09 14:37:23 stefan_schmidt: multiple CPU's don't speed up so much as expected however... most time in OE goes to ./configure etc... Mar 09 14:37:57 philippe: bitbake is multithreaded today... Mar 09 14:38:18 stefan_schmidt: get a cpu with hardware accelerated m4 execution Mar 09 14:38:35 zecke: and gcc in microcode Mar 09 14:38:50 zecke: heh, have a order link for me? Mar 09 14:39:05 hrw: microcode is so 70s, RISC is the future :) Mar 09 14:39:16 stefan_schmidt: no, sadly not Mar 09 14:39:31 stefan_schmidt: we could build one and get rich? Mar 09 14:39:34 oe guys: What are your suggestions. You should know it best. Mar 09 14:40:02 The main reason for the beast is using oe the whole day now. :) Mar 09 14:40:22 stefan_schmidt: get a barebone AMD64 x2 from alternate + ram for ~350 euro Mar 09 14:40:41 stefan_schmidt: and if one is not enough get as many to fill your budget and install icecream on them Mar 09 14:41:35 stefan_schmidt: but as philippe mentioned, most time is spend on autoreconf Mar 09 14:41:53 zecke: hmm, I don't like to many machine here. Mar 09 14:42:25 stefan_schmidt: they are small, place them in one big case (but one of these machines is enough) Mar 09 14:43:09 stefan_schmidt: virtualization, you could try running stuff in parallel Mar 09 14:43:22 zecke: This means I save a lot money, damn. ;) Mar 09 14:44:05 guaqua: brr, virtualization. I have enough 'fun' with that at work. :) Mar 09 14:44:16 :D Mar 09 14:50:04 yeah i wonder if it wouldnt be more useful to get 2 cheap amd x2 Mar 09 14:50:18 you could even run mosix on them ;) Mar 09 14:55:40 hrw: I saw something about it, however when I added the BB_NUMBER_THREADS in my local.conf I did not see anything happening (and I believe I am using the latest bitbake svn) Mar 09 14:55:57 Anyway I'll make sure it is the latest svn before I start complaining :-) Mar 09 14:56:50 Seems everybody likes to save me money here. Thanks guys. :) I still takes some time before I can order. Enough time to sleep over it. Mar 09 14:57:35 * philippe got a first generation Dell PowerEdge and got the second cpu for free Mar 09 14:58:37 After paying twice as much for the first one? ;) Mar 09 14:58:58 SuN: It was way cheaper than anything comparable I could build myself. Mar 09 14:58:58 * hrw need to upgrade to x2 one day.. Mar 09 14:59:12 Nice Mar 09 14:59:35 SuN: Of course I did not take any options like extra memory or bigger disks as they charge huge amounts for that. Mar 09 15:00:05 Yeah, the thing with Dell is, as long as you stick to what they want you to buy, they can be pretty cheap. Mar 09 15:01:04 I did have some trouble to find a store who would sell me registered DDR2 with ECC, but apart from that I expanded the rest myself Mar 09 15:01:13 dell is pretty cheap. just that their remote management tools suck...or this is what i've heard... Mar 09 15:01:33 ssh sucks? Mar 09 15:01:46 lights out management Mar 09 15:01:53 guaqua: for a workstation you don't need them anyway :-) Mar 09 15:01:56 when you have no way to get to the server... Mar 09 15:02:11 then you come to appreciate hp's iLO Mar 09 15:02:28 philippe: for a workstation, no :) Mar 09 15:09:02 Sigh. http://gps.ordnancesurvey.co.uk/activeGetZip.asp I click to download GPS offsets from the site (delayed alas) and I get a shareware nag-screem Mar 09 15:09:04 n Mar 09 15:09:07 Impressive. Mar 09 15:09:47 hi Mar 09 15:12:27 there's no backup battery in the Neo, right? Mar 09 15:12:37 I thought I saw one. Mar 09 15:12:42 Next to the microphone. Mar 09 15:12:45 oh ok Mar 09 15:13:21 the PCF50606 register dump at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/PCF50606 indicates that there's a backup battery connected, looking at PCF50606 specs so i was wondering Mar 09 15:13:23 It got deleted after I added it to the hardware wiki Mar 09 15:13:23 and no comment made, so possibly not. Mar 09 15:13:39 Oh yeah. Mar 09 15:14:44 this mean that the data will be stored, when akku is commplety empty? Mar 09 15:14:48 +the Mar 09 15:14:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management Mar 09 15:15:00 says there is one. Mar 09 15:15:07 w Mar 09 15:15:10 Well... Mar 09 15:15:16 ah good to know that Mar 09 15:15:24 The main battery has enough energy to keep the device in suspend-RAM for a year. Mar 09 15:15:47 provided Linux suspends everything correctly :) Mar 09 15:16:04 If you shut off the device when there is 5% battery left, then you've still got 2 weeks in suspend-RAM. Mar 09 15:16:09 Or you can suspend to SD. Mar 09 15:16:21 For more closely zero power use. Mar 09 15:16:28 SpeedEvil: the data storage is not like the palm, or? Mar 09 15:16:29 is suspend to SD implemented? Mar 09 15:16:36 there can i lost data, yes? Mar 09 15:16:39 Almost certainly not (to SD) Mar 09 15:16:52 It's like a PC. Mar 09 15:16:57 i haven't seen suspend to SD anywhere on Linux Mar 09 15:17:12 SpeedEvil: ok thx Mar 09 15:17:13 If you turn it off without suspending, it loses stuff in memory Mar 09 15:17:20 files on disk (SD in this case) are OK. Mar 09 15:17:30 suspend to SD should 'just work' AIUI. Mar 09 15:17:36 (Is suspend to SD any different from suspend to HD?) Mar 09 15:17:44 yeah, or flash Mar 09 15:17:45 Briefly, yes. Mar 09 15:18:06 though i would expect dumping 128MB to SD to be quite power consuming Mar 09 15:18:09 But it's not _very_ different, the standard case won't catch it, you'll probably need a 5 line bash script and an initrd. Mar 09 15:19:05 In practice. Mar 09 15:19:20 If everything is designed sanely, and supports 'save now' power interrupts. Mar 09 15:19:34 then you don't really need to suspend to SD, you just save all content, and power off. Mar 09 15:20:10 The way firefox/sessionsaver copes with crashes'd probably be the standard to aim for. Mar 09 15:20:25 also it would take probably like 5 minutes to write 128MB to SD Mar 09 15:20:56 It's not _that_ bad. Mar 09 15:21:07 I got a meg and a half a second last time I tried IIRC. Mar 09 15:21:23 Hm, still would take like 1.5 minutes... Mar 09 15:21:29 Uber-highspeed cards can do like 10MB/s right? Mar 09 15:21:30 Does it matter? Mar 09 15:21:37 I think so. Mar 09 15:21:46 Well, it doesn't really matter, but... Mar 09 15:21:54 1.5 minutes of slow-mode power isn't that much. Mar 09 15:21:55 Lumpio-: if controller can... Mar 09 15:22:04 on a palm pda 300 KB/s was the max i could squeeze out of the mmc bus Mar 09 15:22:23 I make it around a milliamp-hour. Mar 09 15:22:38 but that bus didn't support the 4-wire mode Mar 09 15:22:40 Or 1/1200th of the battery. Mar 09 15:22:59 suspend to disk does never write everything to disk Mar 09 15:23:11 I know. Mar 09 15:23:14 Usually. Mar 09 15:23:25 if the algorithm is anything like sane you only write data to disk Mar 09 15:23:28 Unless you're a bit into swap, and you've got very little bugger cache. Mar 09 15:23:39 the rest you can always fetch from nand Mar 09 15:23:45 Normally it can throw away quite a lot. Mar 09 15:40:09 openmoko: 03werner * r1305 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/cmd-unzip.patch: common/cmd_mem.c: changed maximum argc of "unzip" from CFG_MAXARGS to 4 Mar 09 15:45:34 openmoko: 03werner * r1306 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: Mar 09 15:45:34 openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (handle_dnload): free stale dynamically allocated buffer Mar 09 15:45:34 openmoko: before starting new download (plugs memory leak after failed downloads) Mar 09 15:45:34 openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (dfu_init_strings): corrected partition name creation logic Mar 09 16:16:42 I assume the touchscreen works just like a mouse over apps? Mar 09 16:17:02 * SpeedEvil is considering xterm with mouse support as a trivial prototyping platform. Mar 09 16:17:39 SpeedEvil: cat /dev/ts will show you Mar 09 16:17:55 No, it won't :( Mar 09 16:18:01 SpeedEvil: the info encoding is very straightforward though Mar 09 16:18:05 Well, not for a monthish Mar 09 16:18:36 ;) Mar 09 16:18:41 is there a dump of /dev/ts? Mar 09 16:19:05 last I tried that on a Zaurus it gave blocks of pressure, x, y Mar 09 16:19:20 k Mar 09 16:19:23 (possibly in a different order) Mar 09 16:19:30 and binary, not ascii :) Mar 09 16:19:35 the omoko kernel has /dev/ts ? Mar 09 16:19:53 it's a standard device, I'd hope so Mar 09 16:20:07 tsdev was deprecated in favour of evdev like a couple of years ago Mar 09 16:20:17 what does it expose? Mar 09 16:20:48 they have similar protocols, Mar 09 16:21:28 evdev sends the x, y, pressure, touch events as separate events, and it is the same protocol that's used for mice and all HID Mar 09 16:21:39 fair enough Mar 09 16:21:52 touchscreen expose /dev/input/eventX which in most of OE distros is symlinked to /dev/input/touchscreen0 by udev Mar 09 16:22:02 tsdev sends a simple struct with x, y, and pressure (i think it was called Compaq protocol) Mar 09 16:22:16 trunk/oe/packages/tslib/tslib-1.0/fic-gta01/tslib.sh says something like this: TSLIB_TSDEVICE=/dev/input/touchscreen0 Mar 09 16:22:29 tslib supports both things Mar 09 16:22:43 wonderful Mar 09 16:22:50 balrog-kun: and tsdev is on way to be removed from kernel (if not even already removed) Mar 09 16:23:10 that makes writing a Java-input driver trivial (Java without X is nice) ;) Mar 09 16:23:21 hrw: finally. i don't know if it even compiles now Mar 09 16:23:45 tsdev also does the strange thing of calibration being done in kernel Mar 09 16:23:48 Counter Mar 09 16:23:57 counter Mar 09 16:23:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 3 weeks, a day 19:36:02 (22.817 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (510) Mar 09 16:28:09 * aloril2 wonders if faq should have entry for P0 devices (with link to above page and/or getting started with P0 page (which should be linked from above page)) Mar 09 16:28:49 balrog-kun: on day I will write kernel driver for mt510 touchscreen which I have in progear webpad here Mar 09 16:38:30 openmoko: 03laforge * r1307 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/ (gsmd.c vendor_ti.c): move CTZR into vendor_ti.c, since not all GSM Modems support it (Philipp Zabel) Mar 09 16:46:19 hrw: is this the device that sat at the OE table on FOSDEM with abiword running on it saying something like "this machine runs OE"? Mar 09 16:48:19 it had the biggest LCD of all devices there :) Mar 09 16:48:35 what? Mar 09 16:48:35 nonickatm: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 09 16:48:46 lol Mar 09 16:49:22 hehe Mar 09 16:50:49 the 'why not camera' discussion ended right? Mar 09 16:51:26 balrog-kun: yes Mar 09 16:51:57 balrog-kun: 12" XGA Mar 09 16:52:08 balrog-kun: or 10.4" - I do not remember Mar 09 16:52:10 You can still have a discussion about that, but neither winning or losing that discussion will get you a camera in P0 or P1 :) Mar 09 16:52:17 10.4 Mar 09 16:52:21 i only remembered the Progear name Mar 09 16:52:24 (just read up on it) Mar 09 16:52:25 which i had never heard before Mar 09 16:52:58 I think it's a nice idea for $500, but for $1500 it is not. Mar 09 16:53:10 a question: the display (NOT resolution) of the iphone is bigger than the neo1973 right? Mar 09 16:55:17 If you look up the screen sizes of the iphone and the neo for me, I'll tell you. Mar 09 16:55:24 SuN :) Mar 09 16:55:26 yeah Mar 09 16:55:29 Because I'm not about to google them myself :D Mar 09 16:55:48 I have the impression that iPhone will have a slightly larger display but it's not based on any hard data Mar 09 16:57:06 but the neo1973 has better resolution Mar 09 16:57:15 that's for sure Mar 09 16:58:46 mjr: iphone: 3.5" 320x480, neo: 2.8" 480x640 Mar 09 16:59:07 the resolution difference is major Mar 09 16:59:15 cu Mar 09 16:59:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#Video-capable_camera <- if that is going to happening in neo1973 v2, please use only a vga camera because: Mar 09 16:59:58 1. even the best camera for mobile phones can not take great pictures because of the small size of the lens Mar 09 17:00:00 2. the megapixels tells the max resolution, not quality ;) Mar 09 17:03:25 also further devices designs will include some without touchscreen (this is, standard phones) Mar 09 17:03:40 I forgot the ? Mar 09 17:03:52 state this on the wiki page Mar 09 17:04:06 there's no official neov2 Mar 09 17:23:40 nonickatm: clearly you have never seen pics by the n95 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Fri Mar 09 17:26:12 2007 Mar 09 17:27:53 well I hear that the nokia 5300 (1.3mpx) shoots better photos than a SE k750 (2mpx!) Mar 09 17:28:23 well the se k750 is at least one year older Mar 09 17:32:14 well after all... a 5 mpx mobile phone cam will never reach the quality of a digicam with the same resolution Mar 09 17:38:14 Lens size is important in lower light, as is noise. Mar 09 17:40:42 Current cellphone camera quality is pretty much sufficient for the target use though, which is MMS and (mobile) blogging, I guess. Mar 09 17:43:52 about providers, someone knows what company can be the best for argentina (or south america in general). Here are only three providers: movistar, personal and CTI (this last one is the one with more diversity of devices) Mar 09 17:45:44 Any GSM provider that doesn't whitelist phones. Mar 09 17:45:56 You've looked on the wiki? Mar 09 17:46:38 Alternatively, [[GSM]] on wikipedia may be worth a look. Mar 09 17:47:54 isn't Telefonica S.A. a provider in Argentina? Mar 09 17:50:16 movistar is from telefonica, personal from telecom and cti is a national provider Mar 09 17:51:09 ah i see Mar 09 17:51:48 i was thinking that Telefonica has its evil powers everywhere in south america Mar 09 17:51:54 also in the wiki's faq there is no section called "finding providers for each country" or similar Mar 09 17:52:01 yes, that's right Mar 09 17:53:47 telefonica here bought a provider that was cooperating with cti so where cti has no coverage, then the other provider (movicom) makes the role of server Mar 09 17:55:59 and now it's planning to buy telecom for monopolyzing (don't know exact word :S) the mobile phones services here, in south america and parts of europe Mar 09 17:56:44 Aren't there any federal trade laws in your country? Mar 09 17:57:04 Specifically ones that counter monopolism. Mar 09 17:58:21 rwhitby: ping Mar 09 17:59:24 well, Telefonica's only reason for still being in the business is holding total monopol in a number of countries, including Spain Mar 09 17:59:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers is the page Mar 09 17:59:48 which does not mention Argentina. Mar 09 17:59:52 they would lose most of their clients immediately if there were alternatives Mar 09 18:00:11 err, customer Mar 09 18:00:12 s Mar 09 18:00:13 I think the most apropiate provider is cti Mar 09 18:00:26 hi koen Mar 09 18:00:28 So why aren't there any alternatives? Mar 09 18:01:00 You'd say there's a viable market. Mar 09 18:01:03 i don't know, some political reasons Mar 09 18:01:17 hey greentux Mar 09 18:02:08 they are the provider that brings more phones variety here Mar 09 18:02:36 on the other hand telefonica was quite advanced, maybe 50 years ago, and before WWII, they funded lots of research Mar 09 18:03:00 kindof like Bell and Cisco in spanish speaking countries Mar 09 18:04:55 movistar or personal attract more the public here because cti in Buenos Aires and environs (google traduced :$) doesn't work very well Mar 09 18:07:40 Here in NL, we have 5 networks competing over 15 million people. Mar 09 18:08:08 in finland the ratio is the same Mar 09 18:08:09 Sounds to me either cti should fix things, or some other company should jump in, because there's a large market there. Mar 09 18:08:18 3 major players on the market with their own networks Mar 09 18:08:41 and maybe like 3 more that rent network capacity Mar 09 18:08:48 that's for 5 million people Mar 09 18:09:04 ermm Mar 09 18:09:09 ratio is smaller :S Mar 09 18:09:12 SuN: 5 different infrastructures (carriers) or does that include virtual operators as well? Mar 09 18:09:55 5 separate networks, a few additional virtual operators as well. Mar 09 18:10:33 SuN: sounds nice. tough competition must be good. Mar 09 18:10:38 All 5 of those networks have coverage in the high 90s. Mar 09 18:11:03 "high 90s" =? Mar 09 18:11:10 as in 90 m above sea level? Mar 09 18:11:16 No, percentages :) Mar 09 18:11:24 "the roarin' 90s" :) Mar 09 18:11:50 lol. i thought is was some .nl expression. you're country is so flat, isn't it? ;-) Mar 09 18:12:10 Yeah, we don't have that many areas that are 90m above sea level. Mar 09 18:12:25 comparison of network coverages here (can be out of date): Mar 09 18:12:26 CTI: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=ar&net=cc Mar 09 18:12:28 Personal: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=ar&net=tp Mar 09 18:12:29 Movistar: http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=ar&net=tc Mar 09 18:12:31 (I think that the two last ones are very out of date because phones running in different locations than the marked have coverage Mar 09 18:13:36 http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=nl&net=pt Mar 09 18:13:49 http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=nl&net=du Mar 09 18:14:05 http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=nl&net=pr Mar 09 18:14:21 http://www.gsmworld.com/cgi-bin/ni_map.pl?cc=nl&net=li Mar 09 18:14:25 in switzerland we have 3 networks 7.5 million people and about 6 MVNO Mar 09 18:14:28 Woa Argentina looks awful. Mar 09 18:14:50 I think that the best option for here will be the three companies because none is the best Mar 09 18:15:03 yes, here the telecomunications are a disaster :S Mar 09 18:15:36 I guess NL is a pretty ideal country for a GSM network though. Mar 09 18:16:05 Closely inhabited, flat and enough high buildings. Mar 09 18:16:50 * SpeedEvil wonders what vatican GSM is like. Mar 09 18:17:14 Direct line to god, I would assume. Mar 09 18:17:19 movistar has roaming agreements with t-mobile in usa for better information Mar 09 18:19:10 cti with cingular, suncom, t-mobile and cincinatti bell wireless Mar 09 18:19:42 personal with cingular and t-mobile Mar 09 18:20:00 some info that can be necesary Mar 09 18:26:56 openmoko: 03thomas * r1308 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (7 files): Mar 09 18:26:56 openmoko: * Add a command line option to to the dialer to show the gui on first run Mar 09 18:26:56 openmoko: * Make sure no windows are shown and then hidden in openmoko-dialer Mar 09 18:55:40 what are you doing in lisboa koen|lisboa ? Mar 09 18:59:45 I'm interested in getting a phase1 phone. Do I need to put my name down somewhere? How many units will be available? Mar 09 19:00:07 no,as many as needed Mar 09 19:00:13 ebel: look at the wiki Mar 09 19:00:38 ebel: information will appear there as soon as there is some Mar 09 19:01:06 OK. I'm just worried about all the phase1 units going and having to wait till septemeber. :( Mar 09 19:01:30 ebel: there'll most likely be a phase1+ too... Mar 09 19:01:49 ebel: so there's 2 chances for you to get it before september/mass-market Mar 09 19:02:57 LuitvD, phase1+ ? are you thinking their could be a new hardware revision after phase1 is out? Mar 09 19:03:21 Psi_: read the wiki :) Mar 09 19:03:26 hehe Mar 09 19:03:29 * Psi_ reads Mar 09 19:03:31 Psi_: something about a Hardware Refresh Mar 09 19:03:34 ;) Mar 09 19:05:11 Oooh, shipping from EU. No customs. :) Mar 09 19:06:11 meh, cant find anything about phase1+ or a hardware refresh Mar 09 19:07:16 ebel - Where do you have that from? Any definite source? Mar 09 19:08:03 Elrond, it says so on the wiki: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_When_can_I_buy_a_Neo1973.3F Mar 09 19:08:12 Doesn't really back it up though. Mar 09 19:08:47 ah, found it, just not on the wiki Mar 09 19:12:54 Argh. Mar 09 19:13:05 I had a brilliant idea when I was hanging a door for an app. Mar 09 19:13:14 Of course, I now can't remember it. Mar 09 19:13:51 SpeedEvil - Yeah, as usual. Mar 09 19:13:53 SpeedEvil: some kind of software spirit level? :) Mar 09 19:15:45 No :) Mar 09 19:19:38 SpeedEvil: I usually have other things on my mind when hanging a door :P Mar 09 19:22:14 stefan_schmidt - You there? Mar 09 19:22:26 Elrond: more or less Mar 09 19:22:43 both :) Mar 09 19:22:55 oh wait, that wasn't a question :) Mar 09 19:24:11 It was the boring bit - got hinges on, everything fits, now take off half an inch of wood with a plane. Mar 09 19:24:55 stefan_schmidt - "I could life with that solution, but why not extend g_serial with a paramter to communicate directly with another tty?". It would allow dynamic rerouting of one g_serial "virtual usb serial". ;) Mar 09 19:26:37 Elrond: hmm, I don't see a use case for this dynamic rerouting. Anyway, if it needs to be done this way for mainline inclusion it's ok. Mar 09 19:27:03 Elrond: I like to get some more feedback from the usb guys about this. Mar 09 19:27:21 stefan_schmidt - What I wonder: Do you need to change the SAC0 code too? Mar 09 19:27:53 Elrond: I hope not. Mar 09 19:28:24 * stefan_schmidt thinks it's time to put the coder pants on a hack on this problem tonight. Mar 09 19:29:31 stefan_schmidt - Hmmm.. From userspace, both (SAC0 and g*) are really two normal serial lines out of the device. Not much difference. Only one major difference: The g* can change its com.-parameter "myserisouly" (the usb-host does it). Mar 09 19:30:15 s/myserisouly/mysteriously Mar 09 19:30:22 Elrond: yeah, and we need to communicate this to SAC0 somehow Mar 09 19:31:30 openmoko: 03laforge * r1309 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/vendor_ti.c: fix typo in last commit Mar 09 19:32:36 stefan_schmidt - Hmm, so you really only need one "callback" from g*: A hook, when the "mystery" happens. The rest (forwarding data from here to there, the new kernel module should be able to do on its own, I'd guess. Mar 09 19:35:25 Elrond: Indeed, something like this. I just got another answer from Felipe. That's the first thing I'll try. Mar 09 19:36:04 felipe ftw! :D Mar 09 19:37:12 Hmm, I don't see felipe's answer on -kernel? Mar 09 19:39:20 Elrond: He cc'ed it. Perhaps take some time for mail delivery Mar 09 19:39:45 Elrond: He suggested to change the Major and Minor for fast test. Mar 09 19:40:43 Huh? How does that aid in a fast test?! Mar 09 19:45:21 Elrond: Change to the Major from tty SAC0. I'll test it out later this night. Mar 09 19:46:51 I doubt, that it'll work. But that's me. Mar 09 19:48:11 Elrond: I tell you tomorrow. Or just read the ml. :) Mar 09 19:49:19 Yeah. Mar 09 20:04:40 is possible to code a image editor for openmoko or it will be too hard? Mar 09 20:05:26 It depends on your definition of hard. Mar 09 20:05:50 And what you want in an editor. There may even be ones that suit already. Mar 09 20:06:22 morning Mar 09 20:07:35 I mean if it will be hard to use Mar 09 20:08:00 At the moment, it's a meaningless question. Mar 09 20:08:18 There is no final software list that will go out on phones in September. Mar 09 20:08:32 There are some people coding things that may turn into final apps. Mar 09 20:09:06 Wander round the wiki, and if you don't see it in the software list, contribute to a page. Mar 09 20:09:31 Maybe someone will code it. Mar 09 20:09:39 Or suggest an app to port. Mar 09 20:13:44 openmoko: 03laforge * r1310 10/trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb: remove mplayer from rootfs to save space Mar 09 20:20:30 openmoko: 03laforge * r1311 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/openmoko.inc: increase ext2.gz size to 128M Mar 09 20:22:18 hmm nice Mar 09 20:22:27 so the philips touchscreen controller in the pcf50606 chip can measure not only touch pressure but also touch area Mar 09 20:24:35 hello Mar 09 20:25:08 g'day Mar 09 20:25:44 well, i was just curious, what the roadmap for beta release is... Mar 09 20:26:07 im looking at the site and its not to clear Mar 09 20:30:16 kn0x: define "beta" Mar 09 20:31:27 rather the developer edition Mar 09 20:31:38 End of month or so. Mar 09 20:31:53 For buying the version which will have little more than a basic phone software workingt. Mar 09 20:32:11 (assuming you're talking about the neo hardware, not the openmoko software) Mar 09 20:32:12 see im in the market for a new phone... and after reading about the project, i'd be interested in doing some work on it. I am pretty good with qtopia.... Mar 09 20:32:39 right right Mar 09 20:32:56 but i see, in september there planning to release a 2ng gen phone? Mar 09 20:32:56 kn0x: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 09 20:33:26 nice Mar 09 20:33:33 Software development continues till mass market releas in September. Mar 09 20:33:37 wow, im impressed Mar 09 20:33:41 s/ill/rough/ Mar 09 20:33:41 SpeedEvil meant: Software development continues trough mass market releas in September. Mar 09 20:33:53 through Mar 09 20:34:07 but i wouldnt want to spend 400 bucks and then find out 6months later they've released new hardware with a camera and wifi Mar 09 20:34:25 There will be a version with wifi, probably in June. Mar 09 20:34:48 Anyone buying the earlier version gets an (unspecified) discount on it. Mar 09 20:35:30 ahh Mar 09 20:35:46 what kind of development has taken place with the OpenMoko suite? Mar 09 20:50:54 LaF0rge: ping Mar 09 20:55:56 SpeedEvil: who told that there will be wifi in v1.5? Mar 09 20:56:07 Sorry - I overstated. Mar 09 20:56:37 It's widely assumed that the 'something that everything has been asking for' as said by Sean in the talk last month at FOSdem is wireless. Mar 09 20:57:31 SpeedEvil: And since there is no dementi from openmoko one could assume they are looking into that option Mar 09 20:57:45 but it is not granted Mar 09 20:57:45 dementi? Mar 09 20:57:51 No, it's not. Mar 09 20:58:04 ah Mar 09 20:58:08 * SpeedEvil googled. Mar 09 20:58:12 SpeedEvil: :-) Mar 09 20:58:18 and we can tell that v1.5 will have 1G ram Mar 09 20:58:45 * aevin waits for his openmoko-devel-image Mar 09 20:58:53 I suppose it could be 3G/UTMS/... Mar 09 20:59:19 And it will have a v12 Mar 09 21:00:23 i would have wifi :P Mar 09 21:00:35 that is the feature that we musst have Mar 09 21:00:43 I'm probably going to be the first one with wifi I think. Mar 09 21:00:52 linux without network is how a biker without a bike :P Mar 09 21:01:00 SpeedEvil: why? Mar 09 21:01:52 * SpeedEvil has a wifi USB stick that's the same size as the bluetooth module, and takes 3.3V internally. Mar 09 21:02:15 SpeedEvil: which one is that? Mar 09 21:02:28 It's a Zydas model. Mar 09 21:02:47 It seems to be discontinued in that form - it was from ebay. Mar 09 21:02:58 Zydas are nice in that they do source on the CD. Mar 09 21:03:12 SpeedEvil: you build out the bluetooth modul? Mar 09 21:03:24 Yes - I have no BT stuff at the moment. Mar 09 21:03:27 use the source! Mar 09 21:03:45 SpeedEvil: we look ;) Perhaps we have wifi on board Mar 09 21:03:58 :) Mar 09 21:04:02 PBeck: network = wifi is flawed logic Mar 09 21:04:10 SpeedEvil: hehe yea, i have a hand full of those, we found that actually the ralink dongles had better power usage and performance Mar 09 21:04:21 wifi is a feature that we absolute need Mar 09 21:04:25 Yeah - it does kind of suck with regards to power. Mar 09 21:04:38 PBeck, "we" as in you guys there maybe Mar 09 21:05:01 I was assuming 'smart' power saving. Mar 09 21:05:07 SpeedEvil: the ralink has an ldo you can remove and just run at 3.3v but you void the fcc rating Mar 09 21:05:19 The zydas too IIRC. Mar 09 21:05:39 s34n: yes usb ethernet .. super ... Mar 09 21:05:42 * SpeedEvil laughs in the face of the FCC. (I'd be CE if anything) Mar 09 21:05:45 SpeedEvil: yea, but the zydas draws about 40mA more Mar 09 21:05:49 mjr: you dont need wifi? Mar 09 21:06:02 frankly, no Mar 09 21:06:11 SpeedEvil: 40mA more without any noticeable difference in performance over the ralink Mar 09 21:06:23 it will be nice when we have wifi-enabled models, but I don't _need_ it Mar 09 21:06:25 Power saving as in a packet-saving VPN. Mar 09 21:06:34 voip and all other features how surfing the internet or update easily the programms Mar 09 21:06:43 that will be very good with wlan Mar 09 21:06:48 Just login to the AP every few seconds and look for new packets for you. Mar 09 21:06:55 PBeck: it seems to me that battery would be more important than wifi Mar 09 21:07:02 mjr: what you need? Mar 09 21:07:08 PBeck, yes, but also can be done over bluetooth, gprs or usbnet Mar 09 21:07:09 You don't have to turn the battery on. Mar 09 21:07:11 s34n: for what you will use the phone? Mar 09 21:07:12 Err - wifi on. Mar 09 21:07:18 but wifi would be interesting Mar 09 21:07:33 PBeck: um... calling people? Mar 09 21:07:34 s34n: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 09 21:07:40 Personally, I could possibly live with the BT if it was high power. Mar 09 21:08:07 mjr: gprs is slow. bluetooth ... have you ever seen a bluetooth access point? at home perhaps a good alternative. Mar 09 21:08:15 s34n: lol Mar 09 21:08:30 SpeedEvil: actually i'm looking forward to the 88w8388 being available in a standard dongle Mar 09 21:08:42 * SpeedEvil is not aware of that chip. Mar 09 21:08:51 speed isn't an issue for most stuff on the road really Mar 09 21:08:53 s34n: than would 350 Dollar to expensive for me :P Mar 09 21:09:04 SpeedEvil: It's the OLPC/XBox 360 wireless chip. Mar 09 21:09:04 SpeedEvil: libertas chipset from marvell, which is being used in the OLPC to do the mesh networking Mar 09 21:09:13 i will surf the internet and navigate in the future ;) Mar 09 21:09:26 speed isn't an issue - but when it's a choice between wifi, or non-existant bletooth APs, or GPRS, wifi looks a lot better. Mar 09 21:09:29 and of course, organiz my live and sync it with my pc ^^ Mar 09 21:09:32 but of course for home I'll hook it up via my workstation over bt Mar 09 21:09:32 PBeck: I didn't spend $350 for my PC Mar 09 21:09:49 'course it's better where available Mar 09 21:10:03 s34n: how you mean? Mar 09 21:10:04 I'm just tired of these people saying that "we" absolutely need it Mar 09 21:10:43 PBeck: $350 is too much to pay for a PDA Mar 09 21:11:07 If you're in many countries, there is no other way to inexpensively connect on the road. Mar 09 21:11:14 PBeck: but a phone/PDS/usb drive.... Mar 09 21:11:22 mjr: we musst to satisfy no geeks with a good hardware Mar 09 21:11:26 *PDA Mar 09 21:11:33 MP3 player, GPS, ... Mar 09 21:11:45 nobody knows the software or system openmoko Mar 09 21:11:46 right Mar 09 21:11:49 that is not easy Mar 09 21:11:55 PBeck, newsflash: non-geeks aren't the target group for this release Mar 09 21:12:09 we musst show that people that we have many options to do with this hard and software Mar 09 21:12:39 mjr: hm i think the september relase would be for end user Mar 09 21:13:06 true enough, we'll see then Mar 09 21:13:15 and sean mean that we have than a full functional phone Mar 09 21:13:45 PBeck: my father-in-law just showed me what he considered a really cool feature on his cell phone - google weather Mar 09 21:13:49 when we musst call over the console it would be a geek-phone ... Mar 09 21:13:56 PBeck: no wifi involved Mar 09 21:14:26 Google-weather, and google-fu of any sort needs GPRS if it has no wifi. Mar 09 21:14:49 GPRS is $6/Mb here (UK) in many cases. Mar 09 21:15:00 s34n: gprs is not cheap when we need a flatrate Mar 09 21:15:22 Flat-rates are some $60 or more. Mar 09 21:15:25 and when we often use gprs it would be very fast expensive Mar 09 21:15:34 SpeedEvil: wow very expensive Mar 09 21:15:40 :( Mar 09 21:15:42 PBeck: he was 1000 miles from his house when he showed me the feature Mar 09 21:16:01 in germany it would be cheaper Mar 09 21:16:03 PBeck: with no access to his or any other wifi Mar 09 21:16:23 s34n: with gprs, yes? Mar 09 21:16:58 * rwhitby tires on talking about the neo 1973 hardware in the openmoko (which is software) channel. perhaps it's time for #neo1973 Mar 09 21:17:03 PBeck: I can only guess. I wasn't actually that interested. Mar 09 21:17:16 one should like to point out that many quite useful network apps don't require a lot of bandwidth Mar 09 21:17:23 GPRS/wifi is pretty much on-topic for openmoko. Mar 09 21:17:24 rwhitby, it would be nice Mar 09 21:17:25 s34n: lol Mar 09 21:17:30 Many apps don't. Mar 09 21:17:32 PBeck: my point was, he didn't have to dhcp an address and think it out Mar 09 21:17:54 yes of course we need no wifi, it give other options, but this it at time a very usefull technic Mar 09 21:17:56 PBeck: users don't care if it is wifi or tinkerbell Mar 09 21:18:01 mjr: and offline download (e.g. imap) and processing on the road is a key use case for me, using bluetooth access points at both ends (work and home) Mar 09 21:18:01 Much stuff can be compressed down into a 256 byte packet when each side has its own dictionaries. Mar 09 21:18:37 PBeck, yessureitis. Mar 09 21:18:45 Mar 09 21:18:53 PBeck: pulling up a list of local SSIDs and surfing on somebody else's net is questionable behavior Mar 09 21:18:55 lol Mar 09 21:19:40 i not surf on other official access points .. Mar 09 21:20:01 +not Mar 09 21:20:12 LaF0rge: please apply this http://page.mi.fu-berlin.de/~freyther/autobuild-classes-r0.patch Mar 09 21:20:17 PBeck: only your own? Mar 09 21:21:05 PBeck: or did you want to ad-hoc betweeb phones? Mar 09 21:21:06 s34n: yes of course. and on public access points Mar 09 21:21:23 on airports and so on .. Mar 09 21:21:33 s34n: how you mean? Mar 09 21:21:36 s34n - ad-hoc would work via bt too. ;o) Mar 09 21:21:42 so how does the neo compete/compare to the greenphone? Mar 09 21:21:49 * mjr had no end of trouble with airport access points, and finally couldn't get on... Mar 09 21:21:51 Elrond: exactly Mar 09 21:21:55 ah well Mar 09 21:22:15 kn0x, by being more open, most significantly for me Mar 09 21:22:38 s34n - Or for security paranoid via mini-a <-> mini-b usb cable. ;) Mar 09 21:23:10 Elrond: I thought the usb wasn't powered Mar 09 21:23:16 i am be right back Mar 09 21:23:27 It's not, but you can talk to another neo on it. Mar 09 21:23:31 AIUI. Mar 09 21:23:39 s34n - It doesn't need to be powered for neo-to-neo. ;) Mar 09 21:23:49 cool Mar 09 21:24:02 the Neos both have their own power, and I'd be really surprised if a Neo didn't know how to talk to an unpowered host Mar 09 21:24:24 mjr - Right. Mar 09 21:24:43 (this has been a topic on the community list; presumably other self-powered usb gadgets may work too, but that's not to be taken for granted) Mar 09 21:24:58 Can someone add neo-to-neo-via-usb to the wishlist:p0_review page? Mar 09 21:25:17 nslu2 talks happily to the neo Mar 09 21:25:20 there's also reportedly a powered hub that doesn't work with an unpowered host... Mar 09 21:25:41 My point is that I think bluetooth and usbnet meet networking requirements for now. I'd put resources into other things before wifi. Mar 09 21:26:11 s34n - Yeah, I add to this. Mar 09 21:26:12 s34n, yes that's right; especially adhoc moko-to-moko-comms are important, but handled Mar 09 21:26:22 my point is that it's a waste of time discussing the hardware, other than as a wishlist item (and everyone has different wishes). Mar 09 21:26:42 the v1 hardware *is* what it is. accept that and start improving the software. Mar 09 21:26:59 yes thanks Mar 09 21:27:05 SpeedEvil: i have a usb ralink usb module i did with two 18650 batteries to power it Mar 09 21:27:19 SpeedEvil: so i can run the module with a non-powered usb host Mar 09 21:27:27 rwhitby - Well, the v1 hardware might change in small aspects, if/when we find bugs. ;o) Mar 09 21:28:29 Elrond, yeswell, I won't mention a certain e-mail now since that'd just be fuel to the fire :] Mar 09 21:28:45 SpeedEvil: http://www.batteryspace.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=3118 Mar 09 21:29:41 why do people feel they need to convert other people to their idea of their own wishlist items for the hardware? FIC will make that decision, based on many factors, the least of which will be an individual's wishlist. They already know that many people want wifi. arguing about it isn't going to change their decision very much. they already know the pros and cons much better than the people arguing about it. Mar 09 21:30:26 rwhitby: agreed Mar 09 21:30:39 rwhitby - Yep. I don't argue about wifi for that reason. Mar 09 21:30:52 rwhitby: too many people don't realize that companies make products so they can make money, not please everyone Mar 09 21:31:27 prpplague - Some companies at least try to please a few people. :-) Mar 09 21:31:50 yeah, the people who are getting the money made ... Mar 09 21:31:52 Elrond: yea, but you can't please everyone and still turn a profit Mar 09 21:32:10 Yeah. Mar 09 21:33:02 Some companies would make more profit, if they'd do a little "pleasing". But that's another issue, OT. Mar 09 21:33:19 hehe Mar 09 21:36:17 rwhitby: yes you are right, but the right hardware and software is at the end the final judgment Mar 09 21:36:28 if the user buy the phone Mar 09 21:36:35 or not Mar 09 21:36:51 hehe. Mar 09 21:37:02 yes, but it's a personal decision, the criteria for which varies widely from one person to the next. Mar 09 21:37:05 PBeck - When it would be that, than my dad wouldn't buy the neo, as it has no IR. ;o) Mar 09 21:37:27 so there is no point in trying to change someone else's opinion about it. Mar 09 21:37:39 Right. Mar 09 21:37:41 rwhitby: yes, FIC musst find the medium Mar 09 21:38:01 and people must accept their decision Mar 09 21:38:13 (or make their own hardware for openmoko) Mar 09 21:38:21 rwhitby: or easy not buy the phone ... Mar 09 21:38:51 to find the medium is not easy, so i think they make here job good Mar 09 21:39:34 * CM agrees with rwhitby (as always ;)) Mar 09 21:39:36 s/here/the Mar 09 21:40:37 rwhitby: yes we musst accept their decision but i think they would hear our ideas ;) Mar 09 21:40:52 in hard and software :) Mar 09 21:41:04 this not mean that the would realize Mar 09 21:41:13 *they Mar 09 21:41:33 PBeck - They already know the ideas. Mar 09 21:41:48 Elrond: all? i dont think so ;) Mar 09 21:42:06 PBeck - They can read Wishlist:* in the wiki. job done. Mar 09 21:42:15 PBeck: there is a clear difference between sending FIC a well-thought-out idea for hardware; vs bickering or complaining that they didn't build the hardware someone wanted. Mar 09 21:42:18 we have mass on ideas, they would blast the wiki ;) Mar 09 21:43:01 the former is constructive, the latter is just hot air Mar 09 21:43:03 rwhitby: amen Mar 09 21:43:32 Okay, can we stop this discussion, that leads nowhere? Or can someone wake me up, when it's over? Mar 09 21:43:42 Elrond: amen :-) Mar 09 21:43:51 rwhitby: yes of course Mar 09 21:44:16 perhaps someone can make a FAQ out of this discussion ;-) Mar 09 21:44:34 hm is this a bad discussion? i think a channel is to dicuss about all related to openmoko and neo ;) Mar 09 21:44:48 *this Mar 09 21:45:26 we can of course disuss about new cool photos of the neo :D Mar 09 21:45:32 *discuss Mar 09 21:45:47 *giggle* Mar 09 21:45:54 my typos argh -.- Mar 09 21:46:01 I'm still waiting for a photo of the aux button. ;o) Mar 09 21:46:07 hehe Mar 09 21:46:15 And SpeedEvil wants one of the top case from inside. ;o) Mar 09 21:46:28 (with a ruler nearby) Mar 09 21:47:30 my neo is 15km away Mar 09 21:48:20 rwhitby: I guess you don't want to talk about wimax then? :) Mar 09 21:48:33 s34n - *lol* Mar 09 21:48:39 Wimax is over-hyped. Mar 09 21:49:11 Elrond: there is one - check recent additions on the wiki Mar 09 21:49:22 Admittedly, from the inside Mar 09 21:49:23 SpeedEvil - Ohh. *checking* Mar 09 21:49:26 s34n: I'm happy to talk about anything in a constuctive manner (i.e. not "why didn't they put wimax on there, *everyone* needs wimax, they won't sell a single device without wimax, ...") Mar 09 21:49:55 what is wimax? Mar 09 21:50:38 PBeck - over-hyped (to cite SpeedEvil) way of doing wifi with more range. Mar 09 21:50:44 It will replace wires for internet access, and be cuter than kittens. Mar 09 21:50:45 rwhitby: how about, "Why don't they do only wimax--nothing else?" Mar 09 21:51:16 s34n - Because I wouldn't buy it then. ;) Mar 09 21:51:48 ah ok ;) Mar 09 21:52:01 s34n: they probably looked coverage maps vs population densities for their target markets. Mar 09 21:52:03 and these things should come with kittens, too Mar 09 21:52:15 Why didn't they include wifi, wimax, edge and 3g? No phone is complete without those :( Mar 09 21:52:19 http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/vocal_ringtone.mp3 Mar 09 21:52:20 60GHz waveband networking'll be interesting. It's inherently limited range, so that you don't get interference from distant stations that you can't decode, and yet have very lare bandwidth. Mar 09 21:52:33 a spontaneous ringtone jam session with my girlfriend ;-) Mar 09 21:52:34 ge Mar 09 21:52:59 wget http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/vocal_ringtone.mp3 Mar 09 21:53:02 sigh Mar 09 21:53:24 (in german) Mar 09 21:53:33 cute Mar 09 21:53:40 Odd. Mar 09 21:53:51 Also cute. Mar 09 21:54:01 She does sound about 8. Mar 09 21:54:10 lol Mar 09 21:54:21 SpeedEvil: It sounds post processed Mar 09 21:54:32 the copyright holder hereby prohibits any further use of this file :-) Mar 09 21:54:36 I can't really properly heat it. Mar 09 21:54:38 Hear. Mar 09 21:54:51 * SpeedEvil has speaker problems ATM. Mar 09 21:54:53 wansti - _any_? Mar 09 21:54:58 I think it's a crumb. Mar 09 21:55:37 Elrond: you are allowed to download it, listen to it, laugh, and delete it ;-) Mar 09 21:56:02 wansti - Heh, not even copy it? ;) Mar 09 21:56:10 wansti-drm? ;o) Mar 09 21:56:11 I'm not sure about vocalesque ringtones. Mar 09 21:56:19 Elrond: nope :-) Mar 09 21:56:25 wansti: rofl - das ist wirklich gut ;) Mar 09 21:56:28 I tend to prefer really simple ringtones. Mar 09 21:56:45 wansti: warst du der "bimmel" ;) Mar 09 21:56:51 PBeck: yup Mar 09 21:57:26 SpeedEvil: There are plenty people who really like them Mar 09 21:57:32 wansti: sebr scb+ Mar 09 21:57:41 wansti: sehr schön. klasse gemacht Mar 09 21:57:43 And we need general acceptance. :-) Mar 09 21:57:50 (wollte wieder zu schnell schreiben) Mar 09 21:57:54 wansti: Now do the frog from MTV :-) Mar 09 21:58:28 alphaone: LOL Mar 09 21:59:15 Oh - I'm not saying it's bad. I think that the neo should be for _everyone_. (well, OM) it should have 'tween' settings, with myspace type apps, ... Granny settings with a real rotating dial phone, ... Mar 09 22:00:00 http://www.guardian.co.uk/Columnists/Column/0,,2026580,00.html Mar 09 22:01:19 Wacky, first page to seggfault FF in a while. Mar 09 22:01:22 SpeedEvil - geek settings, where you need to know Manually_using_gsm by hard. ;o) Mar 09 22:01:43 SpeedEvil: shame, it's a great page. Mar 09 22:04:01 cu Mar 09 22:04:21 Apparently random. Works now. Mar 09 22:04:50 SpeedEvil: I really like the rotating dial phone idea :-) Mar 09 22:05:06 Another reason for a hardware jog-wheel! Mar 09 22:07:06 'My advice when buying a new product is type in the name of the product along with the word 'crap' into google and see how many hits you get.' Mar 09 22:07:11 That's damn fine advice. Mar 09 22:08:10 any idea why i get this http://rafb.net/p/P2OU9657.html error when trying to build openmoko-devel-image ? Mar 09 22:09:04 aevin: no idea Mar 09 22:09:44 is mplayer new to OM, or did i mess the first go-round? Mar 09 22:10:05 _miss_ Mar 09 22:10:10 new Mar 09 22:10:27 new to the image at least Mar 09 22:10:59 and LaF0rge took it out of the image a couple of hours ago anyway Mar 09 22:11:38 rwhitby: okay, thanks for looking. i'll update and try to restart the building.) Mar 09 22:12:27 * alphaone is playing around with JTAG to get to Bug #245 Mar 09 22:13:32 there are already 245 bugs? o_0 Mar 09 22:13:35 hehe Mar 09 22:14:10 only 245? I would expect there are 10 times that - they just haven't been found (or injected) yet ... Mar 09 22:14:24 yeah, I was thinking the same. Mar 09 22:14:27 the image i was trying to build is getting old even before it's done. Mar 09 22:14:28 Yeah Mar 09 22:14:49 i mean 245 revealed bugs ofcourse Mar 09 22:14:51 This is a _needed_ feature 'a special wobbly typeface so that SMS recipients will be able to tell you're smashed out of your face without you having to waste at least five to nine characters spelling out the word 'drunk' (with optional 'im' and punctuation). Mar 09 22:15:30 when P1 launches there'll probably be a bug storm from all the testers. Mar 09 22:16:31 245 bugs in a couple of weeks is either an extremely buggy or extremely popular project Mar 09 22:17:45 alphaone: have you tried to reproduce this with soft-lockup detect enabled? Mar 09 22:18:55 balrog-kun: the bugzilla was used internally before P0 Mar 09 22:18:55 balrog-kun: Not yet. Mar 09 22:27:15 http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/windstille-nightfall.ogg Mar 09 22:27:35 nothing openmoko-related, just something i made for an open source game Mar 09 22:27:44 ...in case anyone's interested Mar 09 22:45:33 wansti: good work :) Mar 09 22:45:42 how you make this? Mar 09 22:46:57 which game is it? Mar 09 22:47:25 PBeck: Windstille, an action adventure game that is currently in the making Mar 09 22:48:32 http://windstille.berlios.de/screenshots.html <= that? Mar 09 22:48:35 how i make it? you mean, with what tools? or composing techniques? Mar 09 22:48:39 yep, that Mar 09 22:48:47 Interesting place for that major chord :) Mar 09 22:49:21 PBeck: although those screenshots are pretty outdated Mar 09 22:49:49 I like the scheme, are you going to add percussion though? Mar 09 22:50:03 wansti: both Mar 09 22:50:40 btw, here's a redone version of the SuperTux "level done" sound... I currently have a monophonic version of that as an SMS sound on my ME45: http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/leveldone.ogg Mar 09 22:50:54 this one's like the "royal mail" version :-P Mar 09 22:51:25 wansti: oh that is cool :D Mar 09 22:51:33 SuN: thanks! about the percussion, i'm not quite sure yet... i'll have to experiment with it a bit and see how it sounds Mar 09 22:53:02 PBeck: as far as tools go, i use Rosegarden as a sequencer, Audacity for recording, a MIDI master keyboard and a hardware tone generator Mar 09 22:53:34 Though with some synths and a good beat, the scheme would be very suited for a techno-rock kind of style as well. Mar 09 22:54:15 hi Mar 09 22:54:20 Hi Mar 09 22:54:30 as for technique, most of the times i work from top (i.e. melody) to bottom (i.e. percussion) - whenever i can think of a nice melody i write it down and build up the rest around it Mar 09 22:54:41 wansti: ah ok Mar 09 22:54:58 That's how I would approach it as well, I think. Mar 09 22:55:02 hmm. now another build error: http://rafb.net/p/PklopQ47.html any obvious diagnosis? seems too be an extra trailing slash. how to strip it off? Mar 09 22:55:04 wansti: you can make a openmoko start sound :D Mar 09 22:55:10 sometimes, however, i do it exactly the other way around: start with a nice percussion loop and then build a baseline and a melody on top of that Mar 09 22:55:34 SuN: interesting idea, i'll play around with that a bit Mar 09 22:55:53 PBeck: yeah, i'd like to do that Mar 09 22:56:07 wansti: i think you would make your job very good ;) Mar 09 22:56:19 I can almost hear the synth arpeggio in my mind :D Mar 09 22:56:26 wansti: do you compose on your computer (with a tracker or something) or do you use a lot of extra hardware, sequencer, keyboard etc? Mar 09 22:56:27 PBeck: but it has to capture the spirit of the project... which means, i'll have to hang around some more :-) Mar 09 22:56:27 create a wikipage ;) Mar 09 22:56:35 aevin: you really build on a i486? Mar 09 22:57:15 wansti: yes ;) Mar 09 22:57:35 wansti: i see you almost just answered my question. Mar 09 22:57:51 aevin: at the moment, i do all the composing in software (i.e. Rosegarden) Mar 09 22:58:22 zecke: it's a i686. i am trying to build it for using it with Xoo/Xnest. Mar 09 22:58:35 although i use the keyboard to play around with melodies, of course Mar 09 22:59:20 unfortunately, it's pretty hard to find hardware that fully works with linux Mar 09 22:59:41 aevin: then change BUILD_ARCH, I doubt Mr. Drepper supports i486 Mar 09 23:00:04 aevin: feel free to pastebin your config.log to see why it thought it can't build a shared library Mar 09 23:00:04 the build/conf/local.conf file is for bitbake, right? is there another .conf file in addition to that one? Mar 09 23:00:45 everything that is compliant to standards like MIDI works fine, of course... but all the little extras of the hardware - those are quite hard to get to work Mar 09 23:00:48 zecke: my local.conf has BUILD_ARCH="i686", MACHINE="x86", DISTRO="openmoko" Mar 09 23:00:50 ...if at all Mar 09 23:01:05 aevin: interesting Mar 09 23:01:07 wansti: what kind of extras are you talking about? Mar 09 23:01:35 zecke: is there another config file that i am missing somewhere? Mar 09 23:02:01 SuN: for example, for the tone generator there's a windows/mac software that lets you save presets, effect settings and such Mar 09 23:02:07 aevin: unlikely, I wonder why it thinks you are on a i486 Mar 09 23:02:25 so if you open a piece in your win/mac software, presets are automatically loaded Mar 09 23:02:31 hm. perhaps i have some other env variables saying that.. *check* Mar 09 23:02:36 Hm alright... no way to do that with sysex dumps? Mar 09 23:02:56 this doesn't work in linux, so if i use any of the effects, i have to set up the tone generator manually every time Mar 09 23:03:03 so i go offline now Mar 09 23:03:03 bye Mar 09 23:03:10 Bye Mar 09 23:03:13 bye Mar 09 23:04:48 so anyway... what should the "Official OpenMoko Startup Jingle" sound like? Mar 09 23:05:12 geeky, undoubtedly :-P Mar 09 23:05:28 zecke: after a failing run of make openmoko-devel-image should the variables in local.conf be exported into the shell or not? at least i can't find them. Mar 09 23:05:40 any suggestions? Mar 09 23:05:56 maybe my config fails and then it defaults to i486? Mar 09 23:06:04 somehow. Mar 09 23:06:24 aevin: the variables will not be exported to your shell Mar 09 23:06:35 okay. Mar 09 23:06:55 i only have $BBPATH and $OMDIR exported. Mar 09 23:07:02 My only suggestion would be "short and unobtrusive", I guess, but I like my phones to be subtle. Mar 09 23:07:06 aevin: uname -a says i486 right? Mar 09 23:07:22 no. Mar 09 23:07:23 aevin@mango:/home/moko$ uname -a Mar 09 23:07:25 Linux mango 2.6.17-11-386 #2 Thu Feb 1 19:50:13 UTC 2007 i686 GNU/Linux Mar 09 23:07:55 i am running the generic kernel for SMP (core duo). Mar 09 23:08:14 i thought. hmm. Mar 09 23:09:40 aevin: start python type import os\nprint os.uname()[3] (\n means press enter, return or whatever key you have to do this) Mar 09 23:10:28 aevin: if using mokomakefile, source setup-env to get the variables Mar 09 23:11:15 rwhitby: yes, but that's also sourced when doing make openmoko-devel-image, right? Mar 09 23:11:34 do you guys have something like a wiki maintainer? ChangeLog and the Build Description needs syncing Mar 09 23:12:12 zecke: ('Linux', 'mango', '2.6.17-11-386', '#2 Thu Feb 1 19:50:13 UTC 2007', 'i686') Mar 09 23:12:54 seems like i'm not running the kernel i thought i did. i'll reboot and pick the right one with grub. Mar 09 23:12:57 :) Mar 09 23:13:23 aevin: but there is still no sign for i486 Mar 09 23:13:37 aevin: before you reboot, please pastebin the config.lof of libreadelf Mar 09 23:14:26 ~lart bugzilla Mar 09 23:14:26 * apt whacks bugzilla with the cluebat Mar 09 23:15:06 * CoreDump|home wished OM.org would use a similiar bugzilla as oe.org Mar 09 23:15:35 CoreDump|home: what feature do you miss? Mar 09 23:15:46 xml exports =) Mar 09 23:16:05 and the default interface of bugzilla is awful Mar 09 23:16:10 oe.org rocks Mar 09 23:16:22 aevin: sourced, but inside a new shell, so not exported I don't think. Mar 09 23:16:37 (not exported outside the make process) Mar 09 23:16:39 "In a recent survey, the number one use people have for their phones is telling the time, making up something like 80% of phone usage.".... tihi... how true. Mar 09 23:17:15 CoreDump|home: there is no bugzilla backport for debian stable, so we need to stop sabotaging the etch release Mar 09 23:17:24 wansti: It should sound open. Mar 09 23:17:49 zecke: to bad :\ Mar 09 23:18:03 !ombug 245 Mar 09 23:18:04 * * Bug 245, Status: , Created: Mar 09 23:18:04 wansti: Final frontier kind of Mar 09 23:18:05 * * : Mar 09 23:18:06 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/show_bug.cgi?id=245 Mar 09 23:18:11 ^^^ no xml ;) Mar 09 23:18:20 It should feature excerpts from the Free Software Song too! Mar 09 23:20:30 Elrond: how do we best fix that when the screen is hardly readable without backlight? we'll perhaps need to make the light go on without having to unlock it, just to check the time .. ? Mar 09 23:21:20 stroke it for the time? Mar 09 23:21:40 alphaone: yeah... Mar 09 23:21:41 just a drag all the way across the screen lights it up for 10s? Mar 09 23:22:01 the Free Software Song? Mar 09 23:22:41 * wansti looks up Free Software Song... Mar 09 23:22:53 wansti: check the video at youtube / google video. Mar 09 23:22:56 Don't... actually make it sound like that, I was kidding :) Mar 09 23:23:52 actually, the SuperTux Theme contains a baseline made from the melody of the decss song, with the main melody of the theme built on top of that Mar 09 23:24:35 nobody ever noticed, but it's still very, very geeky :-) Mar 09 23:25:17 ...so you see, you could actually incorporate the Free Software Song without having it sound like it Mar 09 23:25:27 zecke: sorry, i already rebooted. i'm in generic (SMP) kernel now. still interested in those files? (i havent restarted the building yet) Mar 09 23:25:37 aevin: sure Mar 09 23:26:13 zecke: do you know ~where they're suppose to be located? Mar 09 23:26:48 aevin - My current phone does that. If I press the "power-off"-button long enough: 1) it switches to the unlock screen and turns the light on 2) After a a sec, it switches back to the lock'd screen (which has the round clock on it) and the light is still on. Mar 09 23:27:27 aevin: tmp/work/i486-linux/libreadelf*? Mar 09 23:27:32 s/powrr-off/power-off|on/ Mar 09 23:27:58 Hey? apt has stopped doing s/.../ ? Mar 09 23:28:17 My E680i displays a clock if you hold the camera button for a while, it stays locked though, the clock stays visible for a few seconds. Mar 09 23:28:36 Or rather, the backlight stays on for a few seconds :) Mar 09 23:29:01 zecke: there's no libreadelf* there :-( Mar 09 23:29:59 aevin: hehe, it was libelf Mar 09 23:30:05 i got that :) Mar 09 23:30:17 aevin: and according to your log it is in /home/moko/build/tmp/work/i486-linux/libelf-0.8.6-r0/ Mar 09 23:30:18 SuN - is it a nice round (analog) clock? Mar 09 23:31:36 Yep Mar 09 23:31:41 :-) Mar 09 23:32:27 It's more or less xclock with a background pixmap. Mar 09 23:34:39 zecke: here's config.log http://rafb.net/p/KboEQw90.html Mar 09 23:34:50 i'll restart the i686 build now. Mar 09 23:35:35 aevin: line 1611: configure:8688: WARNING: shared libraries not supported for i486-pc-linux-gnu Mar 09 23:38:41 yeah. but i still don't quite get why it thinks the host is i486. Mar 09 23:39:06 but i'll give it another try. thanks for the help! :-) Mar 09 23:41:10 aevin: ask for refund and a real core duo? but yes this is a interesting question Mar 09 23:43:45 so whats new and exciting on the moko front today? Mar 09 23:44:49 about the startup sound... Mar 09 23:45:02 ...does anyone have a free sample of the sound of a V12 engine? :-) Mar 09 23:45:12 heheh Mar 09 23:45:26 maybe it should be a jet winding up Mar 09 23:45:37 zecke: lol. it _is_ a real core duo ;-) Mar 09 23:45:56 aevin: a Co Processor does not qualify as CoreDuo Mar 09 23:47:43 so how many here have the P0 unit? Mar 09 23:51:48 that many huh? Mar 09 23:53:52 hm. the OE build config lists the BB+OE version, target arch, target os, machine, distro etc..., i.e. TARGET_ARCH="i486" , while my local.conf had BUILD_ARCH="i686" ( TARGET_ARCH unset) Mar 09 23:54:12 is there a list of what people are actually working on? Mar 09 23:54:16 lincman: there's 36 P0 developers that's got their Neo shipped. Mar 09 23:54:36 aevin, how many are here tho Mar 09 23:55:45 lincman: i think it varies, different time zones etc. perhaps 15? (some are idleing) Mar 09 23:56:05 cool Mar 09 23:56:14 are you one of them aevin? Mar 09 23:57:18 lincman: no, I am waiting for P1. Mar 09 23:57:59 lincman: have you seen the wiki website? Mar 09 23:58:07 is there a good place to watch who is doing what? Mar 09 23:58:12 aevin yes Mar 10 00:00:11 i guess pretty much of it right now is just poking around in it Mar 10 00:01:51 i haven't seen such a detailed list over P0 devs and their respective area of focus. Mar 10 00:02:32 I guess not all of the core systems are working totally yet Mar 10 00:02:40 lincman - hang out on irc and watch them, or watch the MLs. ;) Mar 10 00:02:49 hey wansti, you ever use jokosher? Mar 10 00:03:14 haven't tried it yet, just curious if it's any good for composing Mar 10 00:03:25 aevin, do you have anything special that you are going to focus on? Mar 10 00:04:26 is anyone here using a fresh rootfs created via MokoMakeFile or an OM "from-scratch" build (ie: not from .dev) Mar 10 00:04:31 ? Mar 10 00:05:05 peepsalot: i tried it... it looked great, but it kept crashing, so it wasn't really useful Mar 10 00:05:23 but i'll give it a shot again when they fixed it :-) Mar 10 00:06:57 The Jokosher devs are idiots for not using Jack. Mar 10 00:07:00 But it looks nice. Mar 10 00:07:34 SuN, what is Jack? Mar 10 00:08:21 Jack is a low-latency audio server that supports routing of devices and plugins pretty much transparently. Mar 10 00:09:39 There are tons of apps written to connect to jack, pretty much any serious audio app supports it. Mar 10 00:10:13 Now, if you want to run your sound through say, an equalizer or a reverb, you can't use Jokosher until they implement it. Mar 10 00:10:34 And if they had supported Jack from the beginning, there would be no need to implement it in the first place. Mar 10 00:14:53 http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/openmoko_startup_test.ogg Mar 10 00:14:59 something along those lines? Mar 10 00:16:28 Nice, but some more dynamics would be nice. Mar 10 00:16:51 An amplitude or pitch synth envelope or something. Mar 10 00:17:12 sure Mar 10 00:17:32 this is just to give you a general idea Mar 10 00:17:35 Maybe combined with a resonance filter to make it a bit more exciting. Mar 10 00:17:44 (envelope as well) Mar 10 00:20:28 pretty good wansti Mar 10 00:21:40 *finall* Mar 10 00:22:55 a matching error sound would be something like http://www.tu-bs.de/~y0019680/tmp/openmoko_error.ogg Mar 10 00:24:27 error sounds should be < 1s IMO Mar 10 00:24:56 hm, good point Mar 10 00:26:39 i'll play around with it some more... tomorrow Mar 10 00:26:50 good night you guys Mar 10 00:26:54 even shorter imho Mar 10 00:27:02 g'night Mar 10 00:27:10 good night wansti Mar 10 00:38:19 does anybody know what the special features to be added to the phone will be? Mar 10 00:38:37 The consensus is that it is likely to be wifi. Mar 10 00:38:48 v8 engine Mar 10 00:40:14 nmr tomograph. ;) Mar 10 00:40:28 over a camera? Mar 10 00:40:29 There is no camera included. With (battery) powered USB hub, you should be able to attach to (almost) any external camera. See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware for details on what is included. Also see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 10 00:41:51 I find it odd that they would not put a cam in a phone of this calibur Mar 10 00:42:10 calibre Mar 10 00:42:11 well who knows maybe they will add both Mar 10 00:42:42 guess we will have to wait Mar 10 00:43:18 (actually, Sean has said on-list that they're looking into wifi, but there's no promises on delivery models/dates) Mar 10 00:44:06 (with cameras, at least some models might also connect without a powered hub, seeing as they have their own power source, but this would be non-standard and therefore probably vary per camera) Mar 10 00:44:19 (/model) Mar 10 00:44:34 sleep now Mar 10 00:45:09 bet it wouldn't be too hard to make a special USB cable with built in battery power Mar 10 00:45:14 sleep: invalid time interval `now' Mar 10 00:45:14 Try `sleep --help' for more information. Mar 10 00:45:16 ;o) Mar 10 00:45:52 * peepsalot grins Mar 10 00:46:35 peepsalot, well, there are build instructions for power injector boxes on-line, mainly for the nokia 770 which has a similar port Mar 10 00:46:46 not quite cables, but I suppose one could miniatyrize somewhat Mar 10 00:47:27 (turned out "now" was an alias for "after I get good and ready for bed") Mar 10 00:49:33 lincman: i think it's smart of FIC not to load the first OM phone heavy of hardware gadgetes, as it will be a medium tech'ed phone acting as a relatively cheap developer kit. they need as many developers as possible to participate to get the OM distro up and running. then they can expand gradually with more features in later versions. Mar 10 00:50:30 I guess one has to ask which would be more popular in the general arena Mar 10 00:50:50 because once people start seeing these they are gonna want one Mar 10 00:51:20 frankly, I don't see either wifi or a camera being such a "killer app" for phones for regular people Mar 10 00:51:38 I can see the camera, for some people. Mar 10 00:51:50 so maybe the cam is the better choice if there has to be one if you want mainstream purchases Mar 10 00:51:53 However, it's not so much wifi, or the camera, but what apps they enbable. Mar 10 00:52:02 most people with camera phones simply have it because the nice phone they happened to buy has it Mar 10 00:52:03 the wifi is gonna be for us geeks Mar 10 00:52:49 Don't underestimate people's desires to take pictures, seriously. Mar 10 00:52:51 And the fun applications we enable. Mar 10 00:53:05 Even I would miss a camera, I use it like once a month, but I'd miss it. Mar 10 00:53:06 Pictures is probably more important for the chav in the street. Mar 10 00:53:19 Even I find ithandy. Mar 10 00:53:33 It's a _really_ handy way of avoiding writing down long lists of stuff Mar 10 00:53:49 And capturing funny moments. Mar 10 00:53:54 That too. Mar 10 00:54:14 like I said, cam is probably what the average people think about as useful vs wifi as opposed to the techies Mar 10 00:54:37 Alas, I have fewer funny moments than times I need to write sutuff down. Mar 10 00:55:00 Wifi depends a lot on the apps as well. If there's no decent browser, wifi is pretty pointless IMO. Mar 10 00:55:15 I saw the coolest lil bt keyboard Mar 10 00:55:34 since it doesn't appear that its gonna be easy on this phone Mar 10 00:55:42 Got a link? Mar 10 00:56:01 Done _right_ - walk past an AP you have rights to, download all your RSS, favourite website headlines, ... it could be very nice. Mar 10 00:56:35 i get my rss pretty quickly on my t650 Mar 10 00:56:39 and thats with edge Mar 10 00:56:48 Right now, I can do the same with BT though. It only becomes interesting if I can access other people's access points. Mar 10 00:57:07 YUeah. Mar 10 00:57:56 Teh wifi spec really needed a spec for a VPN to a third party box that users could authenticat to, for a per-byte charge. Mar 10 00:58:07 That goes to the owner of the router. Mar 10 00:58:25 Then people'd have a motive to let people use it. Mar 10 00:58:42 Paid public hotspots aren't very interesting, at least not here -- too expensive. Mar 10 00:58:47 No. Mar 10 00:59:16 But I can imagine it'd be handy on some occasions when at Uni or perhaps at a company. Mar 10 00:59:19 I mean that when Joe gets his internet router home from the shop, it pops up a 'do you want to make money as a public hotspot' box. Mar 10 00:59:35 Yeah, that has all sorts of implications though. Mar 10 00:59:36 And if he answers yes, it all just works. Mar 10 00:59:53 who wanted the keyboard link? Mar 10 00:59:54 True. If you make it only VPN, it removes most of them though. Mar 10 01:00:10 I did, but I don't think anyone would mind if you posted it in here :) Mar 10 01:00:38 With providing a service comes responsibility, etc. Mar 10 01:00:41 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php Mar 10 01:01:36 I was assuming that the only way out for a user was with public/private key authentication to one of a public list of VPN machines. Mar 10 01:02:03 The router owner could not know what was being sent. And all trafffic just comes out of the end of the VPN. Mar 10 01:02:18 With the router owner getting paid per byte. Mar 10 01:02:28 That doesn't really exempt the owner of the AP. Mar 10 01:02:32 hehe. :-) Mar 10 01:02:35 Plus there's taxes, etc. Mar 10 01:02:46 And what if you charge someone but your internet connection wasn't functioning properly? Mar 10 01:03:05 Actually, it completely exempts the owner of the AP, as the VPN requires acutal registration. Mar 10 01:03:28 Anyway - it'd need to have been put in at the start, and it wasn't. Mar 10 01:03:32 I'd like to see that stand in court. Mar 10 01:03:36 Wait, that keyboard is credit-card sized? Mar 10 01:03:48 whos gonna write the driver for that cute lil keyboard Mar 10 01:04:02 The guy whose hand is in the picture must have /tiny/ hands Mar 10 01:04:26 It's the other side of the usual mobile phone model agency. Mar 10 01:04:26 Especially suited for leprechauns! Mar 10 01:04:40 SpeedEvil - Wasn't one provider or router distributor offering exactly that? Mar 10 01:04:44 Most mobile phone people want large-handedf people in their ads. Mar 10 01:05:05 Elrond: Yeah - I was meaning that it turns up in _every_ router. Mar 10 01:05:17 Ahh. Mar 10 01:05:26 Yeah, people with large hands in phone ads Mar 10 01:05:48 If you zoom into the ad you'll actually see them push "1", "2", "Left softkey", "Clear" and "Left" while answerring a call Mar 10 01:08:18 that is the one feature from my treo650 I will miss Mar 10 01:08:22 no keyboard Mar 10 01:08:34 About the phone: I actually like the current choice a lot. If the fonts can be made larger easily without breaking the GUI, it'll be really nice. Mar 10 01:08:51 just my two cents to the standby clock discussion: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Image:Standby-clock.png ;) Mar 10 01:10:43 C7: Nice :-) Mar 10 01:11:43 NIce indeed. Mar 10 01:12:05 It would be funny to have it have an inner shadow, so it will seem embedded into the screen. Mar 10 01:13:00 w Mar 10 01:13:25 241 users, I'm not going to list them all. Mar 10 01:13:38 http://www.gadgetshop.com/pws/images/catalogue/full/247825.jpg Mar 10 01:14:33 is that what the clock looks like after you have been coding for 36 hours straight Mar 10 01:15:42 SuN: true .. just a q&d picture.. i can upload the .svg if you wanna play with ;) Mar 10 01:15:47 http://imagecache2.allposters.com/images/pic/RIC/2400-3831~The-Persistence-of-Memory-c-1931-Posters.jpg - when the battery is running down. Mar 10 01:16:40 hehehehe Mar 10 01:17:14 Sure. I like it a lot already though. Mar 10 01:17:25 Me too. Mar 10 01:17:40 It's just a shame that it takes so much power. Mar 10 01:17:56 To display the clock - you need to have the CPU at full speed, and the backlight on. Mar 10 01:18:21 Activation on holding a button or a gesture is fine with me though. Mar 10 01:18:23 does CPU have to be full speed anytime display is on? Mar 10 01:18:25 Yeah. Mar 10 01:18:32 Unfortuanately. Mar 10 01:18:35 My last 3 phones have had that feature -- hold button -> clock Mar 10 01:18:37 However. Mar 10 01:18:39 outch Mar 10 01:18:54 It _may_ be possible to run the display over I2C. Mar 10 01:19:10 Some displays can do that, rather than use the typical 'video rate' interface. Mar 10 01:19:26 If that was the case, then drawing on the display at slow speeds is quite inexpensive. Mar 10 01:19:38 is there just a full and a slow speed (and off) with no modes inbetween? Mar 10 01:19:43 And it can probably keep a static image when the processor is in suspend-RAM. Mar 10 01:19:49 Yes. Mar 10 01:19:55 Well - not inherenrtly. Mar 10 01:20:04 But you'd need an external clock generator. Mar 10 01:20:25 Which the current hardware does not have. Mar 10 01:21:11 i wonder how difficult it would be to have a clock generator that checks CPU usage and adjusts on the fly Mar 10 01:21:41 If it was possible to do that, then with the backlight at around a third of nominal brioghtness and CPU off, yuou _might_ get 24 hours. Mar 10 01:21:53 Unfortunately, it's not difficult at all. Mar 10 01:22:05 It's hard to do cheaply, low power, and variable speed. Mar 10 01:22:33 The slow mode is 12Mhz, and USB,(hence bluetooth) and the screen don't work. Mar 10 01:23:20 hm.. and it realy isnt the most important thing to have.. Mar 10 01:23:31 somewhere on the wiki, hardware wishlist maybe, someone suggested being able to activate just a portion of the backlight, which would be nice for something like a clock app Mar 10 01:23:36 btw.. cant upload the svg to the wiki.. Mar 10 01:23:49 any ideas where to put it? Mar 10 01:23:54 Me. Mar 10 01:24:04 C7, power saving tech is not important? Mar 10 01:24:19 no the clock ;) Mar 10 01:24:22 Ho9wever, I've subsequenylu learned that the display likely has 3 LEDs only in. Mar 10 01:24:48 Which would mean that practically speaking, you'd need another one that was designed to only illuminate a small area. Mar 10 01:24:59 Run at low power. Mar 10 01:25:04 It's not only for the clock. Mar 10 01:25:05 well, if it could use 1/3 power that is a start Mar 10 01:25:15 i thought there were no leds on the phone Mar 10 01:25:20 It'd also be nice for signal LEDs, message indication, ... Mar 10 01:25:28 backlight LEDs lincman, for the display Mar 10 01:25:29 there are 3 white LEDs in hte backl.ight. Mar 10 01:25:37 * SpeedEvil sighs. Mar 10 01:25:39 oh ooops sorry Mar 10 01:25:48 Notebook keyboard has really screwed my typingh. Mar 10 01:26:03 no my fault I misread Mar 10 01:27:01 If the display is 20cm^2, and uses 200mW to backlight, then 1cm^2 can be done at normal brightness for 10mA. Or 120 hours. Mar 10 01:27:08 10mW Mar 10 01:27:31 Err Mar 10 01:27:35 420 hours. Mar 10 01:28:06 I don't know how bad it'd look though. Mar 10 01:28:18 It could look horrible, like it was broken. Mar 10 01:28:32 Depending on how the patch of illumination tails off. Mar 10 01:29:46 lincman: http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/product/8555.htm Mar 10 01:30:18 Not very cheap, but it looks like it's easier to use. Mar 10 01:30:33 you could also do it like the razr does whre the screen is on without the backlight to display the time Mar 10 01:31:09 Or make it say the time. Mar 10 01:31:47 lincman: Nope. Mar 10 01:32:04 how there are no buttons on it to push save for the power is that not correct? Mar 10 01:32:10 The screens of some mobikles are visible without the backlight, as they have a silvered layer at the back otf the display. Mar 10 01:32:28 This about halves the brightness of the display backlight. Mar 10 01:32:45 ok speed, I always thought the screen was on Mar 10 01:32:47 So there is a tradeoff between visibility with no backlight, and backlight brightness. Mar 10 01:33:02 In the neo, they've gone for max brightness. Mar 10 01:33:20 And, even with the screen on, with the backlight off, you can't practically see anything. Mar 10 01:33:26 CoreDump|home: what's the N-simple-steps procedure to upload new firmware via dfu-util when you don't have physical access to the phone? Mar 10 01:34:01 use devirginator Mar 10 01:34:20 SpeedEvil: That is the case if you set brightness to 0 via sysfs, right? Mar 10 01:34:20 devirginator -1 -2 IIRC Mar 10 01:34:42 There is an 'aux' button in addition to the power. Mar 10 01:34:55 As I understand it, yes. Mar 10 01:35:17 ok so you could use that to get it to say the time Mar 10 01:35:24 rwhitby: hmm, well, getting neo into dfu-mode could be a problem =) Mar 10 01:35:26 or turn on the backlight Mar 10 01:35:57 The easy way is probably for a stroke all the way across the display to turn on the backlight, and show the clock. Mar 10 01:36:01 CoreDump|home: yeah, is there no way to get into a mode where dfu-util or devirginator works, without physical access to the device? Mar 10 01:36:26 rwhitby: maybe there is a way with openocd Mar 10 01:36:40 Will powering off the hub that the devices is attached to, letting the battery run down, then powering up again do anything? Mar 10 01:36:52 SpeedEvil: not sure it will power up again in that case Mar 10 01:37:03 Oh well. Mar 10 01:37:32 didn't someone the other day have a problem that the battery went completely flat, and wouldn't turn on the charging circuitry? Mar 10 01:37:51 I think a couple of people have had that problem. Mar 10 01:38:17 rwhitby: you could of course choose the hardcore route and hack u-boot to _not_ boot the kernel (and thus stay in dfu-mode) and use openocd to really kickstart the kernel boot Mar 10 01:38:53 you could use minicom to kickstart the kernel as well Mar 10 01:39:07 hacking u-boot would be trivial =) Mar 10 01:39:26 rwhitby: Yeah, I had/have that problem Mar 10 01:39:51 Actually it seemed to turn on the device but then rebooted Mar 10 01:40:13 So it may not have turned on the fast charging Mar 10 01:42:07 openmoko: 03werner * r1312 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-dfu.patch: Mar 10 01:42:07 openmoko: drivers/usbdfu.c (handle_dnload): "nand erase clear" the end of the rootfs Mar 10 01:42:07 openmoko: partition Mar 10 01:43:06 wait, why u-boot? Mar 10 01:43:07 :P Mar 10 01:43:10 CoreDump|home: I was considering connecting the power button, aux button, and reset switch on debug board to the serial controlled relay box Mar 10 01:43:47 rwhitby: if you hack u-boot, wiring RESET should be enough Mar 10 01:43:51 but didn't want to do that before I do all the demos of the device to the local Linux users group and a seminar at the local Motorola software centre. Mar 10 01:45:13 so for the moment it's just connected by mini-usb and no firmware changes yet (which is suprising me most of all) Mar 10 01:45:44 hehe Mar 10 01:45:49 so it actually lives rw? Mar 10 01:47:32 * CoreDump|home didn't understand that question Mar 10 01:48:12 lincman: sure, connected to an iomega nas100d, and just making sure the mokoslug OE distro has everything needed to service a neo from an nslu2 or nas100d or freecom fsg3 or other nas/router device with usb Mar 10 01:49:37 wow fun Mar 10 01:50:45 * rwhitby takes a note to add task-mokogateway-everything to slugos-packages ... Mar 10 01:51:55 ... so existing SlugOS users can join the fun when they buy a Neo Mar 10 01:52:35 CoreDump|home: I think I've got zd1211rw usb wifi dongle working on the nslu2 now, at least for very a simple "iwlist scanning" test, both LE and BE. Mar 10 01:53:04 ah, that's good news =) Mar 10 01:53:04 has there been talk of what kind of browser will be implemented on the unit? Mar 10 01:53:27 lincman: actually there already is some sort of browser Mar 10 01:54:31 hopefully better than what is on treo Mar 10 01:55:52 ATM it is a piece of junk =) Mar 10 01:56:30 maybe somoen can port something like opera Mar 10 01:57:21 that would suprise me as opera isn't exactly OpenSource Mar 10 01:57:21 Has anyone had any experience tracing a kernel via JTAG? Mar 10 01:58:00 not me Mar 10 01:58:10 Is all I have to do add debugging symbols? Mar 10 01:58:28 Doesn't seem to work with the default kernel Mar 10 01:59:22 It's not open source but it does run on the platform already... maybe Opera is even willing to contribute an X11 version. Mar 10 01:59:41 All things aside, it is currently the number one mobile browser. Mar 10 01:59:53 SuN: No question there Mar 10 02:00:02 don't Opera make all their money on the embedded market? Mar 10 02:00:08 I doubt they'd give it to you for free Mar 10 02:00:53 are there no good open source browsers out there that are for embeded systems? Mar 10 02:01:04 lincman: www.webkit.org Mar 10 02:01:14 I haven't seen one that's even remotely usable. Mar 10 02:01:33 Maybe FIC can buy a license... no clue how much that would cost. Mar 10 02:01:45 gotta love the open source community Mar 10 02:01:53 what do the nokia tablets run? Mar 10 02:02:05 gpe-mini-browser in some modified form? Mar 10 02:02:23 some sort of mini-moz, as well as opera Mar 10 02:03:49 this phone is going to be so spectacular when it actually rolls out Mar 10 02:04:43 and its jsut because there are so many people who will be able to contribute to it Mar 10 02:05:10 I just hope there will be enough people that can see beyond the technical side. Mar 10 02:05:37 aye, something to make it compelling to everyday people Mar 10 02:07:24 thats what I was saying about the choice between cam and wifi earlier Mar 10 02:07:43 but if you look at the palm platform that is why so many people loved it Mar 10 02:08:12 I have mixed feelings about Palm. Mar 10 02:08:33 On one hand, it's an extremely accessible platform, easy to use and straightforward. Mar 10 02:08:50 unfortunatly palm is dead Mar 10 02:08:55 the os is dead Mar 10 02:08:59 But on the other hand it's severely limited, by design and by what manufacturers want(ed) you to do with them. Mar 10 02:09:32 that is why I am so convinced that this project is going to be so successful Mar 10 02:09:54 because I think this platform kicks the crap out of palmos Mar 10 02:10:09 There won't be a lack of options, but I sincerely hope it will be efficient to use as a daily phone as well. Mar 10 02:10:16 and the amount of people who will develop for it is gonna be huge Mar 10 02:10:43 i think as long as the features are better than todays treo it will Mar 10 02:11:07 by that I mean the calendar notes adress book Mar 10 02:11:12 things like tat Mar 10 02:11:15 that Mar 10 02:11:59 Incidentally, those are more or less the Achilles' heels of embedded Linux at the moment. Mar 10 02:12:40 but if you look at apps for the palm like datebk5 Mar 10 02:14:14 those tools that improved upon the crap that palm gave us Mar 10 02:14:47 its totally forseeable that this could happen with this phone too Mar 10 02:14:56 Yeah Mar 10 02:15:10 But I remember a certain device called "Zaurus". Mar 10 02:18:12 and I think it will be even easier for people to develop apps for this unit Mar 10 02:19:51 I essentially bought a Sony Picturebook to replace my Zaurus, because in about 6 years, there's still not a decent web browser available, and as a PDA with calendar/PIM it's rather insufficient as well if you ask me. Mar 10 02:20:50 openmoko: 03laforge * r1313 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/atcmd.c: Mar 10 02:20:50 openmoko: * deal correctly with 'gsm power cycling' Mar 10 02:20:50 openmoko: * consider % as prefix for extended response, even though non-standard Mar 10 02:21:00 The benefits of an X86 platform are great, in that regard. Mar 10 02:21:32 openmoko: 03laforge * r1314 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (9 files in 5 dirs): * properly implement PIN/PUK handling throughout gsmd/libgsmd/util Mar 10 02:21:52 It sounds so simple though, develop a suite of simple apps, get it on par with Windows Mobile, then improve upon that, and you have the ultimate platform. Mar 10 02:21:58 Not really. A platform that commnly availablr apps are compiled for Mar 10 02:21:58 the new little Sony UX is cute too Mar 10 02:22:39 you don't so much care if it's x86, if firefox/... can run on it without problems. Mar 10 02:22:45 Well, in addition, the Zaurus isn't really capable of running the bigger mainstream apps. Mar 10 02:23:05 Firefox is extremely slow and its interface isn't really suited for the Z in all cases. Mar 10 02:23:59 Yeah. I did some experimenting, and with the right extensions and setup, FF is surprisingly not bad on a neo-sied screen. Mar 10 02:24:09 The problem is the resource leaks. Mar 10 02:24:38 WHat I used to do on my Zaurus, is run Opera over ssh over wifi. Mar 10 02:24:47 Worked pretty well. Mar 10 02:24:54 My desktop did all the work that way. Mar 10 02:25:23 The SOny UX is a very neat device, but way too expensive. Mar 10 02:25:24 so do you think that this platform will be better SuN? Mar 10 02:25:46 Time will tell... the only thing I'm saying is that I'm not 100% confident per se. Mar 10 02:26:48 With the Zaurus and Openzaurus in particular, the emphasis was too much on the technical side. From a user's perspective, it was/is a fairly mediocre platform. Mar 10 02:27:16 You only need a few good people to focus on the usability, but they need to be given the right opportunities, and they need to not lose interest. Mar 10 02:27:40 LaF0rge: do you happen to be awake? Mar 10 02:28:00 * CoreDump|home points out that OpenMoko is based on Anstrom (Angstrom is basically OpenZaurus 2/ Familiar 2) Mar 10 02:28:29 well hopefully there will be some really creative folk who will take the examples from what the pim stuff looked like on treo and make it better Mar 10 02:30:28 hey bluelightning Mar 10 02:31:23 hi rwhitby Mar 10 02:31:57 * rwhitby continues building openmoko host tools on nslu2 for mokoslug to be a debug board companion server too Mar 10 02:34:44 rw it sounds to me like you are probably not going to focus on apps then correct? Mar 10 02:35:19 since your things sound mostly OS centric Mar 10 02:36:48 Hah, succesfully tricked mkphone in running without an actual phone. Mar 10 02:37:03 Fairly trivial, but still :) Mar 10 02:37:45 lincman: working on apps is only half the fun =) Good apps need a good core distribution Mar 10 02:38:09 I agree CD Mar 10 02:38:27 CoreDump|home: "OpenMoko is based on Angstrom"? Mar 10 02:38:48 CoreDump|home: did you mean OpenEmbedded? Mar 10 02:39:20 well it is compiled w/ OE but is using lots and lots of meta-data created for and by Angstrom Mar 10 02:40:24 s34n: Distributions compiled with OE re-use other OE-distros stuff quiet a lot (no re-inventing the whell etc) Mar 10 02:40:40 lincman: I need a stable embedded development platform, and cheap (i.e. not GPRS) bluetooth networking at home and work before I can start any app work. Mar 10 02:40:43 CoreDump|home: If I read right, Angstrom is more OZ-influenced than other OE-based distros Mar 10 02:41:32 s34n: Angstrom is a very flexible distro that can be made to work on many devices. koen|away is actually running an Angstrom image on his neo right now ;) Mar 10 02:43:53 CoreDump|home: From their webpage, it sounds like Angstrom wants to compete with OE, but from you it sounds like they are just another OE downstream Mar 10 02:44:11 * aevin is still building... Mar 10 02:44:40 s34n: OE descibes the whole repository of meta-data. It is _not_ a distribution. Angstrom is a distribution compiled using OE meta-data Mar 10 02:45:14 so is openzaurus, so was familiar, so is slugos, etc etc Mar 10 02:46:36 is the openmoko structure open to including these distros? Mar 10 02:47:49 lincman: yes OM, is "just" another ( but damn exiting ) distro compiled with OE =) Mar 10 02:48:15 CoreDump|home: I understand that SlugOS/LE doesn't use OE Mar 10 02:48:40 s34n: now they do =) Mar 10 02:49:03 CoreDump|home: SlugOS/BE does Mar 10 02:49:04 The distro is most likely not going to pose much of a problem. Mar 10 02:50:08 s34n: trust ne, both LE and BE are build with OE right now Mar 10 02:50:19 CoreDump|home: I trust you Mar 10 02:50:27 well all i have to say is i can hardly wait to see what you do with it Mar 10 02:50:57 s34n: http://hentges.net/tmp/snapshots/SlugOS/ <- slugos 4.3 alpha ;) Mar 10 02:51:01 meh Mar 10 02:51:25 that should have been /msg....not that anyone believes me now hehe Mar 10 02:52:07 CoreDump|home: that is password protected Mar 10 02:52:28 PASSWORD REQUIRED, read carefully: Mar 10 02:52:34 you didn't read Mar 10 02:52:50 "You have to read and accept Intels license agreement" Mar 10 02:53:18 That is there condition Mar 10 02:53:22 their Mar 10 02:53:36 exactly Mar 10 02:55:33 Elrond: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Standby_clock ;) Mar 10 02:56:30 * C7 is goin to get a box of sleep .. Mar 10 02:57:35 C7-asleep, YES Mar 10 02:57:38 THAT IS AWESOME **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sat Mar 10 02:59:56 2007