**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Mar 12 02:59:57 2007 Mar 12 03:25:41 aevin, this is the error reported. http://rafb.net/p/9VOgmU15.html Mar 12 03:26:50 Readon: sory, but I was just about to *zzz*. maybe rwhitby can have a look at it. Mar 12 03:27:09 *hopefully trigger his highlighting* Mar 12 03:27:48 yep Mar 12 03:27:51 s/sory/sorry/ Mar 12 03:27:52 http://rafb.net/p/9VOgmU15.html Mar 12 03:28:00 ^^ Mar 12 03:29:56 try bitbake -c clean task-openmoko-demo then rerun make Mar 12 03:30:24 (do that in the build dir, after sourcing ../setup-env) Mar 12 03:33:02 ERROR: Unable to open conf/bitbake.conf Mar 12 03:33:11 ? Mar 12 03:37:52 microSD writing/reading bug (in reality > 64MB memory corruption bug) fix is literally 1 bit change in source ;-) Mar 12 03:37:59 http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245 Mar 12 03:45:41 :) Mar 12 03:45:57 you never know, we may have a usable phone by p1! Mar 12 03:46:16 Readon: did you source setup-env like I said? Mar 12 03:50:34 Readon: ? Mar 12 03:54:01 source setup-env? Mar 12 03:54:02 Readon: ? Mar 12 03:54:35 cd build Mar 12 03:54:39 source ../setup-env Mar 12 03:54:46 bitbake -c clean ...... Mar 12 03:56:35 roger Mar 12 04:03:07 (nothing new really, though this is linked from news.google.com) http://blogs.pcworld.co.nz/pcworld/techsploder/2007/03/openmoko_makes_total_sense.html Mar 12 04:05:42 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r53 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added build-package-* and clean-package-* targets Mar 12 04:08:46 problems getting "text-mode phone interface" working: http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/35666.html Mar 12 04:10:47 not a very good blog entry. Perhaps he should use the supported toolchain ... Mar 12 04:12:17 aloril, there is nothing at your tui.sf.net page that you link to. just and "Index of /" directory listing with nothing in it. Mar 12 04:13:41 ah, nevermind, that link belongs to pavelm Mar 12 04:13:59 rwhitby, peepsalot: don't know more about it than blog I linked to (except possibly same person as pavelm in this channel (not present now)) Mar 12 04:14:22 "2007 will be exciting, oh yea…" http://diary.e-gandalf.net/2007/03/07/2007-will-be-exciting-oh-yea/ Mar 12 04:14:41 blah, topic is twice there ;-) Mar 12 04:15:48 aloril: yep, my comment wasn't directed at you specifically. just a general point that phase0 developers shouldn't really complain if they are not using the supported toolchain. Mar 12 04:18:45 blog: http://technofrek.blogspot.com/2007/03/linux-smartphones.html Mar 12 04:19:45 "including a torque screwdriver" 'scores point' ;-) http://torque-screwdriver.dewaltpowertoolsite.com/35373/ Mar 12 04:20:21 i think that technofrek blog copied that whole article from somewhere else. I remember seeing it a few days ago on digg i think, but IIRC was a different site Mar 12 04:23:08 peepsalot: that might, it did look a bit familiar Mar 12 04:23:55 * aloril just searched this channel logs to see if that link was mentioned already ;-) Mar 12 04:25:20 and it's called a torx screwdriver Mar 12 04:25:26 * peepsalot grumbles Mar 12 04:26:37 i hate blogs Mar 12 04:26:37 I read "torque screwdriver" and was thinking of one with adjustable torque. Mar 12 04:27:19 Here's a great blog: http://bosker.wordpress.com/ Mar 12 04:27:27 I wish I could understand some of it. Mar 12 04:28:42 * peepsalot laughs Mar 12 04:29:55 i like functor, cool sounding word Mar 12 04:30:05 * peepsalot brandishes a +3 Blessed Functor Mar 12 04:30:11 The guy who pointed me to it said, "This guy has a super awesome category theory blog." Mar 12 04:30:39 s/Functor/Functor of Blog Slaying Mar 12 04:50:31 hmm, is the hole above the neo1973 logo really the mic? Mar 12 04:53:00 that's the speaker Mar 12 04:54:11 ok, just checking because i saw some confusion about that in an article online Mar 12 04:55:33 * rwhitby bridges eth0, ath0 (wifi), and usb0 (usbnet to neo) on his iomega nas100d, to get his neo directly on his lan Mar 12 05:08:41 rwhitby, the same problem appears Mar 12 07:49:11 good morning Mar 12 08:01:49 morning Mar 12 08:04:42 I get Makefile, make setup success, and run to make openmoko-devel-image,this an error, Mar 12 08:04:42 regex.c:132:error:previours declaration of 'malloc' was here Mar 12 08:04:42 who can tell me why? Mar 12 08:09:47 http://rafb.net/p/9VOgmU15.html Mar 12 08:10:14 anyone met this before? Mar 12 08:27:03 Readon: mplayer is built? look at /home/sbox/moko/build/tmp/work/fic-gta01-linux/openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0/temp/log.do_rootfs.6330 to check why the mplayer dependency cannot be satisfied. Mar 12 08:30:17 woot! fixed my sticky ALT button... just the tiniest spray of contact cleaner was all that was necessary Mar 12 08:31:30 Configuring zeroconf Mar 12 08:31:31 Successfully terminated. Mar 12 08:31:31 Collected errors: Mar 12 08:31:31 ERROR: Cannot satisfy the following dependencies for task-openmoko-demo: Mar 12 08:31:31 mplayer Mar 12 08:31:31 + export D=/home/sbox/moko/build/tmp/rootfs Mar 12 08:31:33 + D=/home/sbox/moko/build/tmp/rootfs Mar 12 08:31:37 there is no reason Mar 12 08:50:57 Readon: hm, no idea then. I'd try to run bitbake with -vvv/-DDD. or maybe there is a version mismatch between what mplayer provides and what task-openmoko-demo wants. Mar 12 08:59:46 openmoko: 03laforge * r1322 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-apps/openmoko-simplemediaplayer_svn.bb: add datadir/applications and datadir/images on request of Ken Zhao. Mar 12 09:00:41 Readon: why don't you just comment out mplayer from task-openmoko-demo so it will continue to the end Mar 12 09:03:33 rwhitby, i am not familiar with oe, is there a file task-openmoko-demo.bb? Mar 12 09:19:25 rwhitby: can you help me with gsm modem? Mar 12 09:20:20 rwhitby: I do not have anything usin gsm modem port, it is powered but when I connect to it with cu or picocom then no response and application is frozen Mar 12 09:24:05 consider 2 cases: closed WiFi driver for chip which in theory can do illegal frequences and GSM modem software stack Mar 12 09:24:23 both are clearly legal or at least accepted by FCC for example Mar 12 09:24:54 why would these *binaries* become illegal if they release source code? Mar 12 09:25:48 because you can tweak it to go beyond? Mar 12 09:25:49 hi Fletch Mar 12 09:25:52 hi florian Mar 12 09:26:14 hrw: you can buy other hardware where you can do anything already ;-) Mar 12 09:27:40 hi all Mar 12 09:28:20 hi florian, hrw Mar 12 09:28:54 can someone help me with gsm modem? Mar 12 09:28:58 hrw: stefan_schmidt and I have the same problem, http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=256 Mar 12 09:29:09 thx pH5 Mar 12 09:29:25 is this actually assumption that things must be closed or is there some statement (by FCC for example) that says so? Mar 12 09:29:54 aloril: if you are a hardware vendor and you want to minimise the risk that your users abuse the device, you'd choose chipsets that have the least history of being "hacked" Mar 12 09:31:59 alp: is hardware vendor responsible if user abuses the device? Mar 12 09:32:38 * aloril doesn't see knife vendors being sued (or have I missed something? I guess is some areas this does happen) Mar 12 09:33:17 aloril: yes, it adds the risk that their name will be tarnished when the hacks get publicised on the register, slashdot etc. and also when they get loads of RMAs Mar 12 09:34:12 "The killed used a Fiskars knife" Mar 12 09:34:23 killer* Mar 12 09:34:25 pH5: added myself to #256 list Mar 12 09:34:50 alp: OK, but this is not legal requirement though, just 'soft' pr thing Mar 12 09:35:18 aloril: i agree. they might claim it's a "legal department" decision but it's really damage control, less effort Mar 12 09:36:08 for the few winmodems that were fully supported by open source drivers, i don't think we ever saw cool hacks that pushed the hardware beyond its specification Mar 12 09:38:22 other serial question: does someone got gps part working? Mar 12 09:38:28 mhh if hacks get to slashdot, the vendor gains (at least in case of linksys and the like) Mar 12 09:40:18 Readon: the "find" utility is your friend. Mar 12 09:40:34 hrw: I've been able to make a gsm call - want to run through it? Mar 12 09:41:08 rwhitby, i know but i did not find any file named task-openmoko-demo.bb Mar 12 09:41:37 look in openembedded/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb Mar 12 09:41:57 pH5: added link to that bug into 'manually_using_gsm' wiki page Mar 12 09:42:10 rwhitby: my device hang on connecting to modem Mar 12 09:43:56 hrw: ok, let's step through http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Manually_using_GSM Mar 12 09:44:06 you've changed u-boot menu to use usbtty? Mar 12 09:44:50 counter Mar 12 09:44:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review P1: 2 weeks, 6 days 02:15:09 (20.094 +-7.0 days) (see faq) (523) Mar 12 09:46:04 rwhitby: last time when I was using uboot menu it was set to console. Mar 12 09:46:20 usbtty? or serial console? Mar 12 09:46:23 rwhitby: I also disabled serial console in kernel cmdline Mar 12 09:46:25 rwhitby: rootfstype=jffs2 root=/dev/mtdblock4 console=tty0 mtdparts=neo1973-nand:0x00040000(u-boot),0x00004000(u-boot_env),0x00200000(kernel),0x000a0000(splash),0x03d1c000(rootfs) Mar 12 09:46:44 hrw: now, this is the u-boot menu you get when you hold in the AUX key on power-up Mar 12 09:46:47 s/now/no/ Mar 12 09:46:48 rwhitby meant: hrw: no, this is the u-boot menu you get when you hold in the AUX key on power-up Mar 12 09:47:22 you shouldn't need to disable it on kernel cmdline Mar 12 09:47:33 so the openmoko laser pointer goes at least 200 yards :-) Mar 12 09:47:47 XorA: you should add that to the wiki ;) Mar 12 09:48:37 rwhitby: I'm now in bootmenu - 'console to usb' has to be set - right? Mar 12 09:48:49 right Mar 12 09:48:59 rwhitby: and boot now? Mar 12 09:49:02 yep Mar 12 09:49:07 booting Mar 12 09:49:36 then when you get to linux cmdline, edit /etc/inittab to disable getty on ttySAC0 Mar 12 09:49:47 disabled already Mar 12 09:50:13 and lsof | grep ttySAC0 reports nothing using it? Mar 12 09:50:22 moment - booting still Mar 12 09:50:45 nothing Mar 12 09:50:57 mornin Mar 12 09:51:08 echo "1" > /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on Mar 12 09:51:10 done Mar 12 09:51:23 got <6>gta01-pm-gsm gta01-pm-gsm.0: powering up GSM, thus disconnecting serial console Mar 12 09:51:26 in dmesg Mar 12 09:52:04 picocom /dev/ttySAC0 gave "terminal ready" and hang Mar 12 09:55:51 openmoko: 03werner * r1323 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/early-powerdown.patch: Mar 12 09:55:51 openmoko: board/neo1973/neo1973.c (board_init): power down immediately if we haven't been woken up by the power button or the RTC. This can be overridden by pressing Mar 12 09:55:51 openmoko: AUX, i.e., to allow resets to succeed. Mar 12 09:55:51 openmoko: Experimental ! Note that this change means that the phone has to be powered up Mar 12 09:55:53 openmoko: manually in order to fast-charge when a charger is connected. Mar 12 09:56:50 same here (cu -l /dev/ttySAC0 shows "Connected." and then nothing more). Mar 12 09:57:17 I recommend picocom - does not need fancy permissions Mar 12 09:58:10 hrw: you don't get "AT-Command Interpreter Ready"? Mar 12 09:58:31 * pH5 bitbake picocom Mar 12 09:58:53 rwhitby: exactly Mar 12 09:59:10 hrw: I'd talk to stefan_schmidt then. Mar 12 10:02:01 yep Mar 12 10:27:24 someone got some kind of output from gps chip? Mar 12 10:27:36 hrw: I wish =) Mar 12 10:31:14 someone here is familiar with blueprobe script from OE? it can be used to turn on BT on boot.. Mar 12 10:31:53 has anyone confirmed that bluetooth ethernet bridge works? Mar 12 10:32:00 Is there any way on the wiki to get 'diffs only' for the last days changes? I.E. a big list of diffs? Mar 12 10:32:10 jeddy3: IIRC, yes. Mar 12 10:32:36 nice Mar 12 10:33:04 jeddy3: bnep works for me Mar 12 10:33:06 jeddy3: yes, works fine Mar 12 10:33:11 jebba: Yes Mar 12 10:33:22 I surfed via bluetooth Mar 12 10:33:43 ok, nice! thanks everybody Mar 12 10:34:41 Has anyone succeeded in making the phone discoverable? Mar 12 10:34:45 thats a reasonable replacement for wifi for me at home Mar 12 10:34:51 hrw: the blueprobe script isn't of much use for usb dongles Mar 12 10:34:59 alphaone: hciconfig hci0 piscan Mar 12 10:36:29 pH5: it can detect machine and do anything. Mar 12 10:36:42 pH5: so it detect gta01 and can power on bt Mar 12 10:42:54 pH5: Okay, it was discoverable once. Then I tried to change the name in hcid.conf and now I can't find the device anymore Mar 12 10:44:26 hrw: it could, but currently it's not used for powering up bt. it just sets the correct parameters for hciattach (assumes that bt chip is connected via tty). Mar 12 10:44:54 ok Mar 12 10:45:05 alphaone: I think there is a default timeout of three minutes Mar 12 10:58:22 aloril: the issue with open source and regulation is that historically everything has been closed source, and there has been no problem with it, though in theory, people can hack binary blobs. With open source, you have a very public, documented interface to all the 'bad' options. The regulator(s) in some cases may view this differently, however much we'd wish that they won't. And this can only be answered by the regulators in question. Mar 12 10:59:51 s/no problems/no publicly visible problems/ Mar 12 11:00:28 if it didn't get bad press, it didn't happen (hell, if it got bad press, it also didn't happen) Mar 12 11:00:49 the only things that happen are in PR releases Mar 12 11:01:54 Yeah - and the maker can - in teh case of hacked binaries claim it was the evil hackers with no help from them with much more credibility. Mar 12 11:03:22 SpeedEvil: are there actual examples or is it just speculation? Mar 12 11:04:32 This is just speculation. I should have said 'possible issue with open source', not 'issue'. Mar 12 11:07:23 SpeedEvil: there are things on sale like w[[Universal_Software_Radio_Peripheral]] that are designed to allow almost anything Mar 12 11:10:21 hi Mac Mar 12 11:10:27 morning :-) Mar 12 11:12:31 Certainly - however, will the regulator view differently Sure - however, it's very obviously test equipment, not a GSM radio that's going to be sold in the hundreds of thousands, that someone just wrote a 'jam other phones' app for. Mar 12 11:12:52 (which the neo radio certainly can't do) Mar 12 11:18:52 * aloril sees no reason to enable that kind of functionality by default in FLOSS based product Mar 12 11:19:29 you can download binary stuff that does that for either product (in theory) Mar 12 11:20:04 hey guys Mar 12 11:20:12 what toolkit does openmoko use? Mar 12 11:20:12 True - but with the FLOSS, the barrier to entry is much lower, and it's harder to argue that you did as much as any other maker. Mar 12 11:20:25 qtopia maybe? Mar 12 11:20:35 faq? Mar 12 11:20:35 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ Mar 12 11:20:44 Don't actually know - been concnetrating on the hardware. Mar 12 11:21:14 allrighty Mar 12 11:21:15 danke Mar 12 11:21:53 USRP is FLOSS too ;-) Mar 12 11:22:30 And it's a bit of test equipment. Mar 12 11:22:34 holycow: gtk2+ (see OpenMoko link from FAQ for specifics) Mar 12 11:22:41 aha! Mar 12 11:22:44 interesting Mar 12 11:22:47 heck you can buy premade gsm jammers Mar 12 11:22:49 aloril, thank you Mar 12 11:23:45 sweet, openmoko is certainly looking more interesting than qtopia + greenhone Mar 12 11:23:55 Which is rather different from a phone - where you have to get the GSM radio approved before sale. Mar 12 11:24:14 SpeedEvil: so, sell 2 version: 1) source code + hardware as test equipment 2) binary only + hardware as end user item ;-) Mar 12 11:26:24 2) item could checksum binaries and compare to FCC accepted list Mar 12 11:26:24 since you dont have the source to the gsm stack, wheres the issue Mar 12 11:26:34 For the neo, there isn't one. Mar 12 11:26:53 buz: ah, I was pondering case where there would be and was thinking is there really issue or are we just imaging it? Mar 12 11:26:57 and unless one wants to lug around giant batteries, software radio is not really feasible Mar 12 11:27:26 You can't answer the 'is there really an issue'. It's only the FCC that can answer this. Mar 12 11:27:32 buz: just pointing for example where system capable of all of problems is already sold Mar 12 11:27:51 yes Mar 12 11:27:52 It's _utterly_ different though. Mar 12 11:28:00 SpeedEvil: OK, so answer is basically "unknown" currently, that is what I was thinking Mar 12 11:28:04 For a phone, you _have_ to get teh GSM bit pre-approved. Mar 12 11:28:19 If they don't like it, you can't sell the phone. Mar 12 11:28:28 SpeedEvil: yup, and thus checksum binaries and refuse to work if it doesn't match FCC approved ones Mar 12 11:29:19 not proposing actual DRM, just simple checksum comparison: now.. if user bypasses that, then its users fault for doing illegal stuff Mar 12 11:30:09 Yeah - that might be enough. Unfortunately, it's going to depend probably on which regulator, and which person you get at that regulator, as to their understanding. Mar 12 11:30:14 aka.. DMCA: scheme can be simple, only thing that matters is that you break it ;-) Mar 12 11:30:54 (not saying either that hardware manufacturer should use DMCA to lean on users doing stuff not approved, saying that FCC can do that ;-) Mar 12 11:32:05 The scary case (for phone vendors) would be that they get phones into the field, someone starts doing bad network hacks, and the networks ban all the phones. Mar 12 11:32:07 umm.. not really DMCA, but "your configuration is not approved" -thing or something Mar 12 11:32:41 Leading to massive warranty claims. Mar 12 11:34:18 hmm.. this question is still open for mobile networks in USA: can mobile operators ban conforming phones? Mar 12 11:35:18 there is one method: they can just ban that SIM (and sue its owner) Mar 12 11:35:25 SpeedEvil, one network already has ... verizon i thin Mar 12 11:35:30 Ban by IMEI Mar 12 11:36:32 And if there was a widespread 'jam all phones in area' or 'free f0ne call5' app, they would probably be able to make it fly. Mar 12 11:36:42 holycow: which might be illegal, but we will see (in past FCC has been against this on normal phones, but current FCC boss likes stuff like this I think) Mar 12 11:36:46 Especially as the regulator would likely be able to pull the approval for the radio. Mar 12 11:37:07 aloril, indeed, the thing is that cel phone carriers don't want to be reduced to common carrier status i think Mar 12 11:37:10 thats their big thing Mar 12 11:37:23 they think they can upsell on various services and triple dip Mar 12 11:37:26 SpeedEvil: for free calls, you only need to hack SIM? Mar 12 11:37:35 if someone want to see lsusb info then I added "lsusb -v" with enabled bluetooth to the wiki Mar 12 11:37:58 maybe I'm understanding something wrong, but its not actually phone but SIM that is important (and I'm proposing opening up that) Mar 12 11:38:02 ah so a few people here have the openmoko device then? Mar 12 11:38:07 how do you guys find it? Mar 12 11:38:08 s/proposing/not proposing/ Mar 12 11:38:08 aloril meant: maybe I'm understanding something wrong, but its not actually phone but SIM that is important (and I'm not proposing opening up that) Mar 12 11:38:08 I'm not saying only sim - just if some way were found exploiting a vulnerability in the network. Mar 12 11:38:11 i'd love to see some pics :) Mar 12 11:38:13 yup Mar 12 11:38:23 I find it by looking in my shirt pocket :-) Mar 12 11:38:23 You can also ban by phone. Mar 12 11:38:25 counter? Mar 12 11:38:25 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: devices shipped at 2007-03-05; 2 weeks, 6 days 00:21:34 (20.015 +-7.0 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-03-31); 6 months, 4 days (188.015 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (524) Mar 12 11:38:38 noidd, haha! Mar 12 11:38:44 Most stolen phones are useless shortly after theft for resale in the UK, for exmaple. Mar 12 11:38:48 holycow: there are links to photos on that link Mar 12 11:38:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review Mar 12 11:38:59 thank you, thats superb, lemme check it out Mar 12 11:39:05 i'm thinkin of getting one 'just because' Mar 12 11:39:13 (They still get sold on to third world countries though) Mar 12 11:39:57 ;5~ Mar 12 11:40:17 I want one as I hate all my Mp3 players. Mar 12 11:40:24 And I want one with a decent interface. Mar 12 11:40:29 *oooo* Mar 12 11:40:31 *aahhhh* Mar 12 11:40:35 damn, nice Mar 12 11:40:44 the display is breathtaking Mar 12 11:40:49 as is the case btw Mar 12 11:40:50 lol i tactually looks like the 3d rendered previz stuff Mar 12 11:40:58 noidd, it really is stylish Mar 12 11:41:00 and yes I have dropped it already and yes it did survive :-) Mar 12 11:41:06 i can imagine we can build the iphone ui on top of this Mar 12 11:41:10 The lack of actual being able to call people is also breathtaking :) Mar 12 11:41:14 and kick steve around a bit :) Mar 12 11:41:25 It can't do multi-touch Mar 12 11:41:27 holycow: not quite the graphical processing power quite yet Mar 12 11:41:34 SpeedEvil, lol, i've never been able to find anyone i could call regarding my motorola either Mar 12 11:41:35 >_> Mar 12 11:41:37 And it has _nowhere_ near teh CPU power. Mar 12 11:41:41 You know you've got a hackers phone when the FAQ tells you how to overclock it Mar 12 11:41:43 noidd, oh yes probably *nod* right Mar 12 11:42:19 later this year there is a hardware refresh Mar 12 11:42:37 okay this is very exciting Mar 12 11:42:44 there are rumours that it will involve more processing power and either wifi or camra Mar 12 11:42:51 i totally hat emy phone, i would get this if only it can be connected to my carrier Mar 12 11:42:59 which i bet is no problem right? Mar 12 11:43:10 who is your carrier? Mar 12 11:43:17 No, no problem if it's a GSM carrier. Mar 12 11:43:17 fido/rogres in canada Mar 12 11:43:24 are they GSM? Mar 12 11:43:26 If it's CDMA, then no. Mar 12 11:43:34 if there is actual hole, then you can use it using "test systems" too, so they will need to close it anyway Mar 12 11:43:37 not sure actually, i need to look it up ... i think yes Mar 12 11:43:42 cdma is on its way out anyway right? Mar 12 11:43:43 do you have a SIM card? Mar 12 11:43:43 of the top of their head, anyone know how to check/enable fast charge mode from user space? Mar 12 11:43:52 yep Mar 12 11:44:03 checking the list Mar 12 11:44:06 aloril: maybe not. If there are a few dozen test systems, it may not be an issue. Mar 12 11:44:35 * holycow imagines beryl on this on a lark Mar 12 11:44:36 ha Mar 12 11:44:41 noidd, oh i didn't know there was a list Mar 12 11:44:41 If there are 20 thousand devices that can just click on 'get free calls' and they do, then it's a bigger issue for them. Mar 12 11:45:04 holycow: it's a 200Mhz unaccellerated totally dumb framebuffer device with no floating point. Mar 12 11:45:19 ah, thats okay, first generation Mar 12 11:45:22 You don't get _that_ much computational eye-candy. Mar 12 11:45:28 have you seen the demos of th elatest nvidia mobile chips? Mar 12 11:45:37 SpeedEvil: its just matter of time before hardware is enough powerful and small so that you can do this with "test systems" too, so problem will just keep increasing Mar 12 11:45:41 it wont be long before either that or something from intel makes it into these Mar 12 11:45:49 (and probably black market will emerge if they don't actually fix it) Mar 12 11:46:00 holycow: Microtell/Fido and Rodgers are noth GSM networks Mar 12 11:46:06 according to: http://www.gsmworld.com/roaming/gsminfo/cou_ca.shtml Mar 12 11:46:12 aloril, oh totally he sony has that 1.3 ghz palm laptop dealie Mar 12 11:46:22 one can squeeze most of that into something not much bigger than a moto Mar 12 11:46:24 noidd, aha! Mar 12 11:46:29 aloril: Sure - however, it's a long way off, and it's irrelevant to the issue of a widely distributed hackable phone getting banned. Mar 12 11:46:37 noidd, sweet i'm bookmarking that link, thanks! Mar 12 11:47:21 http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412663954/in/set-72157594573486523/ <-- NEATO Mar 12 11:47:21 The nvidia chip _probably_ won't appear in the hardware refresh. It seems likely that it'll be a bit faster processor - but it seems likely that it will still have no accelleration. Mar 12 11:47:43 SpeedEvil, oh yeah that was just a demo at cebit or something Mar 12 11:47:44 SpeedEvil: I guess you can look at history of phreaking for answer ;-) Mar 12 11:47:48 As from what I understand of the lineup of chips from the CPU maker, they don't do ones with accellerations. Mar 12 11:47:54 The software is growing Mar 12 11:47:55 we won't see those chips for a year or more in live devices Mar 12 11:48:07 Sure - like the carriers in general don't really care until the fraud hits over a certain level. Mar 12 11:48:17 Because addressing it is more expensive. Mar 12 11:48:26 SpeedEvil, intel does ... i don't know if they are low power for devices like this ... they are low power for laptops tho Mar 12 11:48:36 intels are all open source too Mar 12 11:48:44 Low power for laptops isn't low power for phones :) Mar 12 11:48:50 ah, thats what i thought Mar 12 11:49:03 yeah i don't think intel is too interested in that area, maybe they should Mar 12 11:49:04 nvidia is Mar 12 11:49:09 don't the ix cpus have some kind of graphical accel functions? Mar 12 11:49:23 i think ati has something cooking on the amd side Mar 12 11:49:49 Even really basic accel - blitters and scalers - would be handy. Mar 12 11:49:53 lol okay this device is totally l33t Mar 12 11:49:56 i hate to say it but it is Mar 12 11:50:01 i'm buying one just for looks :) Mar 12 11:50:11 But. Mar 12 11:50:23 holycow: Did you read the ars technica article about mobile gpus? Mar 12 11:50:26 For stuff that requires high motion, you have the 240*320 modew. Mar 12 11:50:32 CM, nope, linkage? Mar 12 11:50:42 which a 200Mhz CPU can drive quite fast. Mar 12 11:50:57 SpeedEvil: banning popular device might actually lead to class action suit against mobile provider: I think they would take this risk into account Mar 12 11:51:02 holycow: http://arstechnica.com/news.ars/post/20070308-amd-brings-xbox-360-tech-to-handhelds.html Mar 12 11:51:07 ie.. suddenly banning phone that is in wide use Mar 12 11:51:14 SpeedEvil, indeed they can *nod* i still have a pda with a 200mhz cpu Mar 12 11:51:19 CM, danke, reading Mar 12 11:51:30 If the regulator removes the approval for the radio - and they would, they have a cast-iron excuse. Mar 12 11:51:55 the radio is a standard gsm module Mar 12 11:52:04 yes - not for the neo, sorry Mar 12 11:52:11 which is in numerous other cellphones Mar 12 11:52:19 ok. I finally managed to brick neo Mar 12 11:52:30 hrw: gratz :-/ Mar 12 11:52:34 We're talking of a hypothetical case of a future phone with an opensource radio. Mar 12 11:52:34 who has recent working u-boot available online? Mar 12 11:52:37 CM, oh sweet, so what i heard was pretty close to the truth Mar 12 11:52:38 tell me you have the jtag board Mar 12 11:52:38 neato Mar 12 11:52:43 How brick? Mar 12 11:52:52 SpeedEvil: updated uboot Mar 12 11:52:56 Ah. Mar 12 11:53:07 Yeah - the 64M bug is pretty important to fix. Mar 12 11:53:17 I was advised to do the update but I'm chicken :-) Mar 12 11:53:39 hrw: I can upload a known-working one, hold on Mar 12 11:53:39 which 64M bug? Mar 12 11:54:01 hrw: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/u-boot-gta01bv3-r3_0_0_1321.bin <- worked for me Mar 12 11:54:49 holycow: Lets just hope there's some kind of open specifications to make use of that openGL stuff under linux too :) Mar 12 11:55:02 bluelightning: thx. will flash it when find time to unpack debugboard Mar 12 11:55:23 CM, thats sorta what i'm hoping to see out of amd getting their hands on ati .. amd has seemed like a pretty forward thinking company Mar 12 11:55:35 * CM nods Mar 12 11:56:00 hrw: Congrats ! Was about time ;-) Mar 12 11:56:37 I thought I had bricked mine due to bad u-boot flash... fortunately dfu still worked so I was able to reflash it using that Mar 12 11:56:39 http://hentges.net/tmp/snapshots/OpenMoko/u-boot/ <- md5sum Mar 12 11:56:49 SpeedEvil: is there any example of FCC decertifying widely used device? Mar 12 11:57:04 i've not heard of any such thing aloril Mar 12 11:57:13 AIUI, no. Mar 12 11:57:48 In the current climate, would there really be any great outcry if it was spun as 'anti hacker' though :( Mar 12 11:58:18 SpeedEvil: there is one way to make it not widespread: require extra hardware for updating GSM firmware Mar 12 11:58:25 Yeah. Mar 12 11:59:19 If you havn't bricked your device you're not developing enough :-) Mar 12 11:59:33 what is the 64M uboot bug you were reffering to? Mar 12 12:00:05 noidd: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=245 Mar 12 12:00:06 noidd: it's ok to brick your device, if you have a debug board... otherwise you could be in trouble :) Mar 12 12:00:55 There was a mistake on the 64M address line - it was set wrong, and would corrupt memory Mar 12 12:01:05 my god, bugzilla w/o xml plugin should be forbidden by law Mar 12 12:01:55 aloril: also, note that this is exactly what the various HD-DVD/... standards do to players that have bugs. Mar 12 12:02:05 that release their keys into the wild. Mar 12 12:02:29 otherwise you wait another 4 weeks ;-P Mar 12 12:02:34 <-- no debug board Mar 12 12:03:13 SpeedEvil: have they revoked key to any popular hardware? (or even less popular, I have vague memory that this might have happened) Mar 12 12:03:46 No, but it's published policy. Mar 12 12:06:27 SpeedEvil: indeed, we will see if they will revoke key for recently broken software player Mar 12 12:07:21 noidd: I don't have one either Mar 12 12:15:37 i'm waiting for the terrorist phone propaganda Mar 12 12:17:10 heh Mar 12 12:17:12 just wait Mar 12 12:17:57 i have no doubt our friends in redmon or at sco have their fud pencils sharpened Mar 12 12:19:38 maybe they are on this channel here :) Mar 12 12:21:52 aloril - So one HD-DVD key was leaked from a software player lately? (I missed that) Mar 12 12:22:33 Elrond: yes (AIUI) Mar 12 12:22:36 powerdvd and windvd, iirc Mar 12 12:23:10 also I wonder if any CSS key was ever revoked? (now pointless of course) Mar 12 12:23:36 someone has devirginator recipe? Mar 12 12:23:54 wiki page on buying is where? Mar 12 12:23:57 Elrond: http://www.heise.de/newsticker/meldung/86373 Mar 12 12:24:08 * aloril remembers that some certain CSS key was discovered, but was it revoked? (before CSS itself was broken) Mar 12 12:27:12 vmaster - Thanks *reading* Mar 12 12:29:22 someone remember which exactly wiki page describe unbricking? Mar 12 12:31:11 hrw - Either use divirginator... or... *searching* Mar 12 12:31:15 hrw: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Sjf2410-linux Mar 12 12:31:30 sjf2410-linux doesn't work with v2 of the debug board Mar 12 12:31:40 hrw - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Phase_0#Restoring_original_Software_Image Mar 12 12:31:47 vmaster: Ouch. OK. Mar 12 12:32:12 TRIsoft - Sjf2410-linux is AFAIK not any more recommded. Mar 12 12:32:38