**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 17 02:59:57 2007
Mar 17 03:53:26 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]]
Mar 17 03:59:52 <peepsalot> another nice script aloril ;-)
Mar 17 04:02:55 <aloril> thanks
Mar 17 04:03:18 <aloril> 1 hour interval seems to suitable(?)
Mar 17 04:06:19 <aevin> it's not event triggered?
Mar 17 04:06:25 <aloril> EET: 2007-03-16 12:15:46 <vmaster>   in an interview on the german ccc express radio, Harald mentioned first week of april as a likely date for P1
Mar 17 04:06:35 <aloril> no, it polls recentchanges page
Mar 17 04:06:48 <aevin> once per hour?
Mar 17 04:06:58 <aloril> also I think it triggered on every edit, that would be in busy time too much
Mar 17 04:07:03 <aloril> yes once/h
Mar 17 04:07:11 <aevin> okay.
Mar 17 04:07:43 <aloril> easy to change, but probably 1/3600 Hz is OK?
Mar 17 04:08:12 <peepsalot> seems reasonabl
Mar 17 04:08:13 <peepsalot> e
Mar 17 04:08:27 <aevin> yes. fine for now.
Mar 17 04:09:43 <aevin> aloril: ccc express radio is german-speaking only, right?
Mar 17 04:10:02 <aloril> <XorA>      counter\n<aloril>    'counter information'\n<'X'> ok. thanks for the info\n<'X'> aloril: Can you help me in getting the counter information for the release? I mean how can I get that info "P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 01:45:45 (16.073 +-7.0 days) (550)"
Mar 17 04:10:19 <aloril> umm... it was just demonstrated for him(/her) ...
Mar 17 04:10:33 <aloril> aevin: yes, so I can't really verify this myself
Mar 17 04:11:22 <aloril> jgm: in reply to "Nice to see the counter have accuracy down to the second and an error bar of +/- 7 days :)"
Mar 17 04:11:29 <aloril> jgm: there needs to be sense of movement ;-)
Mar 17 04:12:12 <aevin> yeah :)
Mar 17 04:13:05 <technil> bye bye mokopeople...
Mar 17 04:13:25 <aloril> hmm.. currently counter is from 2007-03-25 to 2007-03-07, target date being 2007-03-31, first week ends at 2007-03-04
Mar 17 04:13:29 <aloril> hmm...
Mar 17 04:14:11 <aloril> counter
Mar 17 04:14:11 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, a day 07:45:48 (15.323 +-7.0 days) (556)
Mar 17 04:14:21 <aevin> i don't speak german either., but i guess i would be able to understand bits, but i normally sticks to the chaos radio international broadcasts (in english).
Mar 17 04:15:34 * aloril ponders if 'first' week would include 2007-03-05 .. 2007-03-11 week too
Mar 17 04:16:02 <aevin> what? no april?
Mar 17 04:16:08 <aloril> uups.
Mar 17 04:16:19 <aloril>  2007-04-05 .. 2007-04-11  ;-)
Mar 17 04:16:45 <aloril> and also: currently counter is from 2007-03-25 to 2007-04-07, target date being 2007-03-31, first week ends at 2007-04-04
Mar 17 04:17:21 * aloril moves it 2 dates forward
Mar 17 04:17:36 <aloril> counter
Mar 17 04:17:37 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 07:42:23 (17.321 +-7.0 days) (557)
Mar 17 04:18:11 <aloril> s/dates/days/
Mar 17 04:20:47 * aloril assumes that ccc means http://chaosradio.ccc.de/cre042.html
Mar 17 04:20:55 <aevin> now it targets april 2nd at noon UTC.
Mar 17 04:21:06 <aevin> aloril: yes.
Mar 17 04:21:29 <aevin> oh, i't long.. 1h161
Mar 17 04:21:37 <aevin> 1h16!
Mar 17 04:22:56 <aloril> well.. days are 2d+2h long on earth ;-)
Mar 17 04:24:07 <aevin> but that's included in +-7.0 days, or.. ?
Mar 17 04:24:33 <aloril> sure ;-)
Mar 17 04:25:37 <aevin> i think 2nd april is a seasonable target (for now), i think we'll hit with that 2 week intervla.
Mar 17 04:25:37 <aloril> end date is now 2007-04-09 in UTC-12 and start is -14 24h days from it
Mar 17 04:25:54 <aevin> *reasonable
Mar 17 04:36:46 <aloril> oh, there is 'new' mailing list, missed that http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/neo1973-hardware
Mar 17 04:53:55 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]
Mar 17 05:10:26 * aloril adds "Werner Almesberger" to email triggers
Mar 17 05:11:36 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: OpenMoko & OE question and 13 other mails
Mar 17 05:13:21 <aloril> (that was all mails to openmoko-devel in past ;-)
Mar 17 06:00:04 <rwhitby> jebba: I just reproduced the libconfuse problem here.
Mar 17 08:43:37 <Mandarino> Hi everyone :)
Mar 17 08:44:49 <Mandarino> SpeedEvil: last day I received an email from Sean :P
Mar 17 09:54:10 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Mar 17 09:55:37 <Mandarino> Hi alo
Mar 17 09:55:39 <Mandarino> aloril
Mar 17 10:21:28 <lyakh> I posted to community@... ml about 10 hours ago without beine subscribed, got an email "awaiting moderator's approval" - is it going to work?
Mar 17 10:36:45 <PBeck> hi
Mar 17 10:51:10 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: My Moko
Mar 17 11:40:33 <PBeck>  counter
Mar 17 11:40:38 <PBeck> counter
Mar 17 11:40:39 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 3 days 00:19:20 (17.013 +-7.0 days) (558)
Mar 17 11:40:45 <PBeck> :>
Mar 17 11:54:10 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[User:Seanj]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
Mar 17 12:19:26 <TobiX> Now... Does the GMAME gateway work in two ways? I think my posting to gmane.comp.handhelds.openmoko.community hasn't appeared on the communit-List yet...
Mar 17 12:21:51 <TobiX> Ah, it's in the archives, so it must have reached the list :)
Mar 17 13:05:07 <empty_mind> hey what is the approval process for a project under GForge of openmoko ?
Mar 17 13:29:09 <_buz> http://www.connectblue.se/products/wlan-products/oem-modules/owspa311g/downloads/ this claims not to need any drivers but it's hug
Mar 17 13:33:55 <Stephmw> yeah, you'd need a 2nd neo-sized box for it
Mar 17 13:35:42 <_buz> also i'm not sure how fast this is
Mar 17 13:35:47 <_buz> maybe it's just 115kbit?
Mar 17 13:36:26 <Stephmw> that'd be sluggish :(
Mar 17 13:37:05 <vmaster> they say the serial interface does up to 900kbit/s
Mar 17 13:37:40 <_buz> the philipgs bgw211 looks neat
Mar 17 13:37:44 <_buz> just cant figure out what drivers it has
Mar 17 13:39:05 <_buz> the entier 802.11 stack lives on the module
Mar 17 13:39:42 <_buz> maybe they could gpl the driver then
Mar 17 13:54:10 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]]
Mar 17 14:21:10 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: python bindings
Mar 17 17:45:28 <chass> hey, cool robotics and kitty-cat research:  http://youtube.com/watch?v=2bPtlDwr7P4   http://youtube.com/watch?v=iPKsXTVTLqI
Mar 17 17:45:28 <aloril> chass: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 17 17:45:41 <libervisco> Hi
Mar 17 17:45:45 <chass> hehy
Mar 17 17:46:33 <theholyduck> lol
Mar 17 17:46:50 <theholyduck> nice and totaly unrelated auto answer
Mar 17 17:47:13 <libervisco> I wish Neo had wifi in P1 :\
Mar 17 17:47:22 <chass> heh
Mar 17 17:47:24 <libervisco> I'd really consider buying then
Mar 17 17:47:50 <libervisco> otherwise I'm in a limbo now.. need to get something with wifi support by June :\
Mar 17 17:47:56 <libervisco> and if can't be Neo then what..
Mar 17 17:48:55 <SpeedEvil> A slave with a ring-binder.
Mar 17 17:51:06 <DukeOfURL> yuk
Mar 17 17:52:08 <DukeOfURL> Gotta hand it to the British--they really know how to make a movie
Mar 17 18:12:34 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03mickey * r1390 10/trunk/oe/packages/sysvinit/sysvinit/fic-gta01/inittab: oe/sysvinit: run getty on ttySAC0 only in runlevel 2, in runlevel 3 and greater GSM is using ttySAC0
Mar 17 18:13:25 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03mickey * r1391 10/trunk/oe/conf/machine/fic-gta01.conf: oe/conf: disable automatic SERIAL_CONSOLE entry because of our special handling of GSM via ttySAC0
Mar 17 18:14:01 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03mickey * r1392 10/trunk/oe/packages/gsm/ (. files/ files/gsmd libgsmd_svn.bb): oe/packages: add startscript for gsm daemon
Mar 17 18:14:13 <Mandarino> Hi ppl :)
Mar 17 18:24:53 <abraxa_> Heya Mandarino 
Mar 17 19:06:21 <suma> how much time normally it will take for the mokomakefile to complete ?
Mar 17 19:06:36 <suma> i'm running on pentuim i686 celeron
Mar 17 19:07:03 <ynezz> +-5 days
Mar 17 19:08:19 <suma> means if it complete before 5 days, something wrong ?
Mar 17 19:08:38 <ynezz> it was a joke
Mar 17 19:09:03 <suma> i c
Mar 17 19:09:21 <suma> it is running for past 4 hours, and still going on
Mar 17 19:09:31 <suma> that is why i'm curious
Mar 17 19:10:47 <suma> so i thought no wonder, it may go for 5 days also !
Mar 17 19:12:04 <thresh> it could, in fact
Mar 17 19:16:16 <MacNorth> mine took about 10 hours
Mar 17 19:41:39 <Mandarino> reeeee
Mar 17 19:41:43 <Mandarino> bot ?
Mar 17 19:43:10 <SpeedEvil> You are no longer new.
Mar 17 19:43:20 <Mandarino> jajajja :P
Mar 17 19:43:22 <Mandarino> True
Mar 17 19:43:41 <SpeedMandarino> Bot ?
Mar 17 19:43:42 <aloril> SpeedMandarino: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 17 19:43:47 <SpeedMandarino> xDDDDDDDDDD
Mar 17 19:44:42 <Mandarino> I hope OM framework will be better than this boot :P
Mar 17 19:47:12 <SpeedEvil> http://www.dealextreme.com/details.dx/sku.2254 Hmm - alcohol breath tester.
Mar 17 19:49:06 <Mandarino> for me? xXDDDDDD I
Mar 17 19:49:36 <SpeedEvil> No - it's been mentioned before, as an add-on for phone.
Mar 17 19:50:23 <Mandarino> Here in Spain could be a great add-on :P
Mar 17 19:51:01 <Mandarino> I got a question for you.... how are your walls?
Mar 17 19:51:13 <SpeedEvil> Progressing slowly.
Mar 17 19:53:47 <Mandarino> But... I think your new walls make your house smaller...
Mar 17 19:53:56 <SpeedEvil> 2-4cm.
Mar 17 19:54:11 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]]
Mar 17 19:54:20 <SpeedEvil> But they reduce the heating bill to 1/4 or so.
Mar 17 19:56:02 <Mandarino> Somebody saw this video? http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VHzH5cJnFZ8 xD
Mar 17 20:00:36 <Mandarino> Aish
Mar 17 20:45:38 <MetaBookfoziS> counter
Mar 17 20:45:39 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 15:14:20 (16.635 +-7.0 days) (559)
Mar 17 21:03:52 <CoreDump|home> hi
Mar 17 21:04:01 <DukeOfURL> Hi
Mar 17 21:11:09 <peepsalot> cp: cannot stat `/home/peeps/moko/openembedded/packages/netbase/netbase/fic-gta01/if-pre-up.d': No such file or directory
Mar 17 21:11:18 <peepsalot> i ahve this problem with mokomakefile
Mar 17 21:13:58 <CoreDump|home> oops
Mar 17 21:14:07 <CoreDump|home> peepsalot: that would be my doing, hold on
Mar 17 21:14:55 <peepsalot> well before that i was getting a different error.  something about mising package xau
Mar 17 21:16:49 <CoreDump|home> peepsalot: to work-around, just "mkdir if-pre-up.d if-up.d if-down.d if-post-down.d" in netbase/fic-gta01
Mar 17 21:21:29 * peepsalot wishes his computer was faster
Mar 17 21:22:04 <SuN> Investments, investments.
Mar 17 21:24:08 <CoreDump|home> peepsalot: change pushed. An update should pull in the fixed version
Mar 17 21:55:34 <peepsalot> | checking for X11... Package xau was not found in the pkg-config search path.
Mar 17 21:55:46 <peepsalot> I get this error for mokomakefile
Mar 17 21:57:49 <peepsalot> rwhitby: http://pastebin.ca/399261 do you know what is wrong?
Mar 17 22:01:33 <CoreDump|home> peepsalot: try installing libxau-dev on your host
Mar 17 22:03:02 <peepsalot> CoreDump|home, it looks like it already is installed
Mar 17 22:13:19 * CoreDump|home tries mokomakefile
Mar 17 22:54:11 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Current_events]] [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[Talk:WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]] [[Main_Page]]
Mar 17 22:54:34 <rwhitby> CoreDump|home: I think this could be the staging_bindir_cross bug in OE
Mar 17 22:54:57 <rwhitby> peepsalot: is tmp/staging/i686-linux/bin/arm-linux a directory or a file for you?
Mar 17 23:03:08 <rwhitby> mickey|guests: ping - libgsmd_svn.bb is broken in do_install_append - gmsd is in subdir/subdir/subdir of WORKDIR
Mar 17 23:04:06 <rwhitby> oh, scratch that - the real problem is the gsmd init script (not the executable) is not in SRC_URI
Mar 17 23:04:18 * CoreDump|home wished OM would finally sync w/ OE :(
Mar 17 23:06:37 <mickey|guests> thanks rwhitby, fixing it in a minute
Mar 17 23:10:42 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03mickey * r1393 10/trunk/oe/packages/gsm/libgsmd_svn.bb: oe/gsm: fix install. closes #284, thanks rwhitby.
Mar 17 23:16:54 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03mickey * r1394 10/trunk/oe/packages/gsm/files/gsmd: oe/libgsmd: supply necessary options to gsmd invocation
Mar 17 23:22:50 <peepsalot> rwhitby, i do not have such a directory or file.  closest thing is arm-linux-libtool
Mar 17 23:23:07 <rwhitby> ok, that's not the problem then
Mar 18 00:22:46 <daniel_bergamini> awfully quiet in here
Mar 18 00:25:12 * Psi_ drops a hammar
Mar 18 00:25:30 <Psi_> *hammer
Mar 18 00:25:34 <daniel_bergamini> didn't seem to do much good Psi_
Mar 18 00:25:40 <daniel_bergamini> was wondering about that
Mar 18 00:26:41 <daniel_bergamini> the Neo1973 looks like a pretty slick device, can't wait to see all the kinks worked out
Mar 18 00:27:05 <daniel_bergamini> just found out about it yesterday, been researching since
Mar 18 00:27:21 <CM> Might be quiet because it's saturday night here in europe ;)
Mar 18 00:28:37 <daniel_bergamini> that's funny it's saturday night here in the states
Mar 18 00:28:55 <daniel_bergamini> should be closer to sunday morning in europe?
Mar 18 00:28:56 <aloril> daniel_bergamini: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 18 00:28:56 <CM> :-P 1.28 here
Mar 18 00:29:02 <CM> So yes, sunday
Mar 18 00:31:10 <daniel_bergamini> aloril they should put that FAQ link right on the main wiki menu
Mar 18 00:31:21 <daniel_bergamini> I've searched around on it a bunch and didn't see it
Mar 18 00:31:26 <Psi_> its 12:30pm sunday here
Mar 18 00:31:41 <daniel_bergamini> 8:31pm saturday here
Mar 18 00:31:53 <CM> It is called Frequently Asked Questions on the mainpage in the wiki
Mar 18 00:31:56 <daniel_bergamini> psi where you at?
Mar 18 00:32:02 <Psi_> NZ
Mar 18 00:32:04 <CM> I didn't see it first either, but it's almost at the top
Mar 18 00:32:14 <daniel_bergamini> I'm saying it should be on the main navigation menu
Mar 18 00:32:21 <CM> Ah, ok. True
Mar 18 00:33:03 <daniel_bergamini> what a kick ass project though
Mar 18 00:34:09 <daniel_bergamini> I've been desperately trying to get linux working reliably on my old HP Jornada 720
Mar 18 00:35:46 <daniel_bergamini> I'm guessing now I can give up and just get a real device
Mar 18 00:37:12 <abraxa_> Did anyone have Perl be built using the MokoMakefile? It wants to do so for me but I run into a strange 'No rule to make target `more`' error...
Mar 18 00:39:43 <rwhitby> abraxa_: pastebin the full log please
Mar 18 00:42:49 <CIA-7> openmoko: 03rwhitby * r57 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Remove ftdi-eeprom-native from the build, cause it's broken and not generally useful for external developers anyway.
Mar 18 00:43:12 <abraxa_> rwhitby: http://pastebin.ca/399471 is the end of it, I didn't think the succeeding parts before that are of interest
Mar 18 00:43:20 <rwhitby> jebba: ftdi-eeprom-native is badly broken (the build of it that is), and my autoconf foo is not good enough to fix it.
Mar 18 00:44:09 <jebba> rwhitby, ok, thx for the update  :)
Mar 18 00:44:23 <rwhitby> abraxa_: no idea - it builds fine here on 32-bit Debian Etch.  since it's not openmoko-specific, you should report it in #oe.
Mar 18 00:44:33 <rwhitby> jebba: so I've removed it from the build :-)
Mar 18 00:45:29 <abraxa_> rwhitby: Thanks for the hint, I'll try my luck there
Mar 18 00:48:07 <daniel_bergamini> so for $625 the whole enchilada can be mine?
Mar 18 00:48:41 <abraxa_> daniel_bergamini: Yeah but without cheese - that costs extra
Mar 18 00:48:58 * SpeedEvil has a cheddar neo.
Mar 18 00:49:20 <SpeedEvil> (to check the actual size, whittled out of cheese)
Mar 18 00:49:27 <abraxa_> Show-off =(
Mar 18 00:49:28 <daniel_bergamini> abraxa_: what does the debug board do for me? (yes I have read the description on the wiki)
Mar 18 00:49:54 <vmaster> daniel_bergamini: mostly JTAG, but also a serial console afaik
Mar 18 00:50:31 <SpeedEvil> basically nothing.
Mar 18 00:50:34 <daniel_bergamini> vmaster: so if it crashes on boot or something along those lines I can figure out where? as long as the thing is booting fine, most app dev work can be done with the usb?
Mar 18 00:50:44 <SpeedEvil> Its only normal purpose is if you manage to hose u-boot
Mar 18 00:50:51 <SpeedEvil> you should never need to update u-boot
Mar 18 00:51:05 <SpeedEvil> all dev work can be done without jtag
Mar 18 00:51:19 <SpeedEvil> including kernel - you don't use it on a normal PC.
Mar 18 00:51:36 <rwhitby> SpeedEvil: you should never need to update u-boot, unless there is a bug in u-boot (as there was in P0 phones)
Mar 18 00:51:40 * vmaster wonders what hrw et al. have to say about that ;)
Mar 18 00:51:41 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Mar 18 00:52:03 <SpeedEvil> it's not like the kernel, where you update commonly for new features.
Mar 18 00:52:33 <SpeedEvil> And if you do break it, then sending it to someone with a debug board works too.
Mar 18 00:53:52 <vmaster> it's certainly not a must-have, probably not even a nice-to-have for most users, as they wouldn't know what to do with it anyway, but once you need it you're screwed without it
Mar 18 00:54:16 <SpeedEvil> It's pretty much exactly like re-flashing the BIOS in a PC.
Mar 18 00:54:16 <daniel_bergamini> might be worth the money then I guess
Mar 18 00:54:35 <daniel_bergamini> anyone know what the discount structure for the next gen phones will be for the early adopters?
Mar 18 00:54:39 <SpeedEvil> no
Mar 18 00:54:44 <SpeedEvil> it's not been revealed.
Mar 18 00:55:02 <vmaster> daniel_bergamini: if you plan to play with other ARM hardware, too, you can use it as a general JTAG interface - all the signals are available on a std 20pin ARM JTAG header
Mar 18 00:55:09 <SpeedEvil> It's implied that it will be revealed when the P1 availability is revealed.
Mar 18 00:55:27 <SpeedEvil> (the discount structure)
Mar 18 00:55:37 <vmaster> of course there are cheaper JTAG interfaces available
Mar 18 00:55:42 <SpeedEvil> The final price of P1+ or P2 hasn't been revealed either.
Mar 18 00:56:09 <daniel_bergamini> vmaster: that's good to know I believe a few of the other linux projects I work on might work then
Mar 18 00:56:37 <vmaster> well, only ARM7/9 and XScale tbh. - no ARM11 support so far
Mar 18 00:56:52 <vmaster> ah, and Cortex-M3
Mar 18 00:58:08 <daniel_bergamini> I'm pretty sure the wrt54g is arm based
Mar 18 00:58:36 <vmaster> it's mips afaik
Mar 18 00:58:56 <daniel_bergamini> could be
Mar 18 00:59:33 <daniel_bergamini> I think the Jornada 720 and linksys nslu2 are though
Mar 18 01:00:08 <vmaster> nslu2 is xscale (ixp42x), no idea about the jornada
Mar 18 01:00:19 <Nebukadneza> hi
Mar 18 01:00:35 <daniel_bergamini> looks like the wrt is a broadcom
Mar 18 01:00:50 <vmaster> xscale's on consumer devices are a bit criticial, as they are often only suitable for flashing, but not for debugging
Mar 18 01:00:57 <daniel_bergamini> though I have heard of JTAG referenced for each of those projects
Mar 18 01:00:59 <vmaster> because of the reset circutiry
Mar 18 01:01:23 <vmaster> yeah, but so far the only software supporting the FT2232 used on the debug board is the OpenOCD, which only supports ARM at this point
Mar 18 01:01:55 <vmaster> if all you want to do is flashing then you're better off with a simple parallel port adapter (wiggler)
Mar 18 01:02:32 <vmaster> the openwince jtag tool allows you to work with almost every processor (mips, powerpc, arm, ...)
Mar 18 01:03:13 <rwhitby> yeah, we use openwince and a parport wiggler for nslu2 reflashes
Mar 18 01:03:50 <rwhitby> but I'm hoping to use the debug board and openocd on an Iomega NAS100d (ixp4xx with 20 pin arm jtag header onboard), assuming it has the reset connected up properly
Mar 18 01:06:07 <daniel_bergamini> part of me says to get one while I still can
Mar 18 01:06:49 <daniel_bergamini> I'd be more inclined to jump on it if it had 802.11g (or n for that matter)
Mar 18 01:07:16 <SpeedEvil> yeah.
Mar 18 01:07:22 <vmaster> that might come with P1+ (P1.5, or whatever you'd call it)
Mar 18 01:07:27 <SpeedEvil> g or n chipsets tend to use more power.
Mar 18 01:07:34 <daniel_bergamini> have all the other hardware issues been worked out?
Mar 18 01:07:43 <SpeedEvil> We think so.
Mar 18 01:07:53 <vmaster> 802.11a/b would be more than enough for a phone?
Mar 18 01:07:58 <SpeedEvil> there are not supposed to be remaining hardware bugs in P1.
Mar 18 01:08:04 <SpeedEvil> a is _rare_.
Mar 18 01:08:09 <SpeedEvil> it will not happen.
Mar 18 01:08:18 <SpeedEvil> 5.4Ghz waveband instead of 2.4
Mar 18 01:08:26 <daniel_bergamini> I wouldn't need it most of the time, but it would be nice for war driving or getting online where there wasn't gsm signal (but wifi)
Mar 18 01:08:42 <SpeedEvil> There are interesting use-cases.
Mar 18 01:08:55 <daniel_bergamini> yeah a is pretty much a special backhaul use from what I've seen
Mar 18 01:09:02 <SpeedEvil> For example, walking past an AP which you have access to.
Mar 18 01:09:24 <SpeedEvil> Do that, and it downloads all your favourite websites and headlines and mail and ...
Mar 18 01:09:36 <SpeedEvil> without you taking it out of your pocket.
Mar 18 01:09:54 <daniel_bergamini> yeah but that would require it to have wifi on at the time
Mar 18 01:10:16 <SpeedEvil> Nope.
Mar 18 01:10:17 <SpeedEvil> GPS.
Mar 18 01:10:25 <vmaster> hehehe
Mar 18 01:10:34 <SpeedEvil> Blip the GPS every minute or so, more when you're near a point of interest.
Mar 18 01:10:43 <SpeedEvil> turn on wifi when you get close to AP.
Mar 18 01:10:46 <daniel_bergamini> interesting concept
Mar 18 01:10:58 <daniel_bergamini> like pull into your driveway and wifi turns on
Mar 18 01:11:00 <SpeedEvil> the GPS gets a position in under 1s.
Mar 18 01:11:02 <vmaster> yeah, and it gives you another usecase for gps, too :)
Mar 18 01:11:23 <SpeedEvil> so you can turn it on 1/60th of the time and get reasonable positions very cheaply.
Mar 18 01:11:51 <lincoln3> wrt54g is mips
Mar 18 01:11:59 <aevin> and buy a battery crank as extra gear.
Mar 18 01:12:29 <aevin> *dynamo crank
Mar 18 01:12:41 <SpeedEvil> The battery problems are not bad - as long as you don't keep stuff on all the time.
Mar 18 01:13:52 <aevin> with the OM phone being so functional you're gonna end up using it all the time.
Mar 18 01:14:29 <daniel_bergamini> that's fine, I'm sick of my MDA already
Mar 18 01:14:40 * LetoTo 's first application will be an auto filter for stupid premium SMS numbers
Mar 18 01:14:44 * LetoTo hates Rogers.
Mar 18 01:17:15 <LetoTo> I decided that anyone who can may for a 5 digit number or less is some company i dont want to receive SMSes from :P
Mar 18 01:17:24 <LetoTo> s/may/pay
Mar 18 01:20:00 <aevin> i'll look forward to add CAPTCHA for everyone that wants to talk to me. i guess they'll be "wtf?!" when they stumble upon it.
Mar 18 01:21:02 <aevin> not that i suffer from any non-human phone call spamming ;)
Mar 18 01:21:25 <abraxa_> How would you do captchas over the phone?
Mar 18 01:21:38 <SpeedEvil> 'Are you a human? What's 2+2? Press the button
Mar 18 01:21:49 <abraxa_> Ah, I see
Mar 18 01:21:52 <SpeedEvil> If they get through it, then it rings
Mar 18 01:22:21 <abraxa_> Makes sense but won't stop call center agents ;)
Mar 18 01:22:39 <SpeedEvil> 'What colour hair do I have'
Mar 18 01:31:03 <daniel_bergamini> I might buy it for the guitar pick alone
Mar 18 01:49:51 <fsniper> Hi
Mar 18 01:49:59 <abraxa_> Hellos
Mar 18 01:50:00 <daniel_bergamini> hi fsniper
Mar 18 01:50:50 <fsniper> I'm new to open moko and i fail building with MakeFile
Mar 18 01:51:07 <fsniper> does ftdi-eeprom-native-0.2-r1 need confuse library on host?
Mar 18 01:56:10 <abraxa_> CIA-7 openmoko: rwhitby * r57 mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Remove ftdi-eeprom-native from the build, cause it's broken and not generally useful for external developers anyway.
Mar 18 01:56:35 <abraxa_> So I don't think you're supposed to build it in the first place, fsniper
Mar 18 02:00:43 <fsniper> hi again
Mar 18 02:01:10 <fsniper> I'm new to open moko and i fail building with MakeFile
Mar 18 02:01:10 <fsniper> does ftdi-eeprom-native-0.2-r1 need confuse library on host?
Mar 18 02:01:18 <fsniper> i lost my connection :(
Mar 18 02:01:34 <abraxa_> CIA-7 openmoko: rwhitby * r57 mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Remove ftdi-eeprom-native from the build, cause it's broken and not generally useful for external developers anyway.
Mar 18 02:01:41 <abraxa_> So I don't think you're supposed to build it in the first place, fsniper
Mar 18 02:01:54 <fsniper> upps
Mar 18 02:02:38 <fsniper> abraxa_: thanks. So is it a Makefile problem? 
Mar 18 02:02:57 <fsniper> abraxa_: i didn't created env from scratch. 
Mar 18 02:03:31 <abraxa_> I'm not sure but downloading the latest makefile might help
Mar 18 02:04:39 <fsniper> abraxa_: i tried it. Maybe i should have look on the makefile
Mar 18 02:05:52 <abraxa_> Well, rwhitby is here anyway so I'm sure he can say a bit more about your issue :)
Mar 18 02:06:43 <fsniper> rwhitby: thnx for the MakeFile first :)
Mar 18 02:07:48 <daniel_bergamini> the current Neo doesn't support EDGE?
Mar 18 02:08:42 <daniel_bergamini> I guess 3G is out of the question then
Mar 18 02:09:31 <abraxa_> Is EDGE even important? Only 1 out of 4 network carriers in Germany supports it while all 4 support UMTS
Mar 18 02:09:51 <Clint> important in the US
Mar 18 02:10:02 <fsniper> abraxa_: in Turkey no operator supports umts. All has edge
Mar 18 02:10:13 <abraxa_> I see :o
Mar 18 02:10:18 <daniel_bergamini> yeah I'm in the middle of nowhere and get 2-3 bars of EDGE in my window sills
Mar 18 02:10:47 <fsniper> i would like to have wifi instead :)
Mar 18 02:11:04 <abraxa_> Same, I'm content with GPRS
Mar 18 02:11:32 <daniel_bergamini> It never hurts to have it and not need it
Mar 18 02:12:27 <DukeOfURL> Are there many hotspots in the UK and Europe?  Here in the states we have to go to Starbucks and pay T-Mobile for access
Mar 18 02:12:40 * abraxa_ would love a modular approach where you can switch between BT/WiFi/UMTS/EDGE as desired
Mar 18 02:13:19 <fsniper> DukeOfURL: in Turkey there are mostly un protected home/office wifi networks
Mar 18 02:13:58 <DukeOfURL> Here in the states most businesses have their WiFi locked down.
Mar 18 02:14:16 <daniel_bergamini> I had not heard of UTMS before, it's basically 3GSM
Mar 18 02:14:41 <fsniper> DukeOfURL: here they lock it down when they pay double  fee  :)
Mar 18 02:17:59 <daniel_bergamini> thanks for the chat guys, I'll probably pop in and out
Mar 18 02:21:43 <SpeedEvil> Switching is problematic.
Mar 18 02:22:08 <SpeedEvil> Well - in a phone.
Mar 18 02:22:27 <SpeedEvil> it means that you can't simply use pre-bought modules, you've got to make your own.
Mar 18 02:23:14 <SpeedEvil> Or have stupidly large carriers.
Mar 18 02:23:47 <abraxa_> I was thinking along the side of switching the BT PCB with a WiFi PCB of the same size, for example
Mar 18 02:25:29 <SpeedEvil> That's a bit problematic.
Mar 18 02:25:51 <SpeedEvil> For example, you won't unless you roll your own get one that's guaranteed to remain compatible.
Mar 18 02:26:09 <SpeedEvil> Even if todays one is, next weeks order may simply not be.
Mar 18 02:26:31 <abraxa_> What would change between those orders?
Mar 18 02:26:47 <SpeedEvil> The vendor re-rolls the design to reduce costs.
Mar 18 02:27:12 <SpeedEvil> It still works as it did before as a USB dongle, but now doesn't fit.
Mar 18 02:27:51 <SpeedEvil> The problem with phone modules is that they are all different sizes (GSM, 3G, ...)
Mar 18 02:27:54 <abraxa_> If FIC only purchases the WiFi chipset, puts it on its custom-designed PCB and sells it as an "add-on" then I don't really see a problem
Mar 18 02:28:03 <SpeedEvil> No, true.
Mar 18 02:28:08 <SpeedEvil> But that adds cost.
Mar 18 02:28:21 <abraxa_> Indeed
Mar 18 02:28:35 <SpeedEvil> It seems likely that it's going to go onto the main board anyway come P1+
Mar 18 02:29:19 <abraxa_> Yeah, I'm sure it will in the long run - and you're right about the phone modules...
Mar 18 02:29:31 <SpeedEvil> Unfortunately :(
Mar 18 02:29:34 <abraxa_> That would get tricky or even impossible I bet
Mar 18 02:29:49 <DukeOfURL> I have a UTStarcom F3000 WiFi phone here.  Its battery life is about four hours.
Mar 18 02:29:58 <DukeOfURL> http://www.utstar.com/Solutions/Handsets/WiFi/
Mar 18 02:30:12 <abraxa_> Call or standby time?
Mar 18 02:30:19 <DukeOfURL> standby
Mar 18 02:30:22 <abraxa_> Ouch.
Mar 18 02:30:36 <DukeOfURL> Take it off the charger at eight, dead by noon
Mar 18 02:38:08 <SpeedEvil> Good battery?
Mar 18 02:39:46 <DukeOfURL> They both do the same thing...
Mar 18 02:40:27 <DukeOfURL> A customer ordered them then gave them back to me--I'm stuck with this crap
Mar 18 02:40:52 <DukeOfURL> Makes me sensitive to the battery issues on the Neo
Mar 18 02:41:08 <DukeOfURL> We need to get through a 16 hour day, at least
Mar 18 02:41:33 <DukeOfURL> at the minimum
Mar 18 02:44:55 <SpeedEvil> Can'y you return them to the supplier?
Mar 18 02:54:21 <peepsalot> how hard is it to switch between different connections?  for example using a browser over BT, then switching to over USB, Wifi, etc
Mar 18 02:54:34 <peepsalot> assuming they all exist in hardware
Mar 18 02:54:37 <fsniper> Cool! I built openmoko for fic. But i don't have one!
Mar 18 02:55:22 <SpeedEvil> It's pretty much a routing problem.
Mar 18 02:55:42 <SpeedEvil> If it's just using a browser, then it's pretty easy.
Mar 18 02:56:04 <SpeedEvil> you set the default route to the preferred net device.
Mar 18 02:56:23 <SpeedEvil> where preferred is highest signal * desirability for each device
Mar 18 02:56:43 <peepsalot> mail client, etc.  i mean, can there be (or is there already) some program that allows you to pick from all available connections, and all other software will use that connection?
Mar 18 02:56:52 <SpeedEvil> route
Mar 18 02:57:20 <SpeedEvil> if you want long-running connections that seamlessly transfer, you pretty much need to do VPN.
Mar 18 02:58:04 <peepsalot> sorry, i'm not very good with linux networking.  so you are saying the linux command route could handle all this?
Mar 18 02:58:13 <SpeedEvil> pretty much.
Mar 18 02:58:41 <peepsalot> so all we need is a nice touchpad gui frontend for it
Mar 18 02:58:42 <SpeedEvil> you simply change the default route to your preferred connection device with a small script that polls for the 'best' one every second or few.
Mar 18 02:59:35 <SpeedEvil> If you've got a USB-net signal, always use that, if you've got wifi with signal >n, use that, otherwise bluetooth, and then GPRS with the user OKing each packet if they are paying.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun Mar 18 02:59:56 2007