**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 28 02:59:56 2007
Mar 28 03:00:44 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean_mosko at fic.com.tw> RE: OpenMoko at Embedded Systems Conference?
Mar 28 05:37:55 <Mandarino> Hi ppl!
Mar 28 05:37:57 <Mandarino> counter
Mar 28 05:37:57 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 06:22:02 (9.265 +-7.0 days) (649)
Mar 28 05:40:01 <sumasuma> counter
Mar 28 05:40:01 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 06:19:58 (9.264 +-7.0 days) (650)
Mar 28 05:40:32 <sumasuma> what is  this counter about ?
Mar 28 05:40:34 <sumasuma> counter
Mar 28 05:40:35 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 06:19:25 (9.263 +-7.0 days) (651)
Mar 28 05:40:55 <sumasuma> ~counter
Mar 28 05:57:10 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03alex_tang * r1522 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-messages/src/ (callbacks.c sms-contact-window.c sms-contact-window.h): Get selected contacts and set into sms send entry.
Mar 28 06:01:08 <sumasuma> counter
Mar 28 06:01:08 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 05:58:51 (9.249 +-7.0 days) (652)
Mar 28 06:02:09 <aloril> sumasuma: see link given in counter, it counts remaining time until estimated P1 availability (best guess only as you can see from big 1 week long uncertainty)
Mar 28 06:26:58 <sumasuma> aloril: thanks
Mar 28 06:27:07 <sumasuma> i was going through the link actually
Mar 28 06:41:38 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1523 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: add SRCDATE for openmoko-messages
Mar 28 06:46:43 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03ken_zhao * r1524 10/trunk/oe/ (2 files in 2 dirs): oe/openmoko-apps: add openmoko-keyboard
Mar 28 06:53:45 <ewanm89mob> Anyone who is receiving the community mailing list?
Mar 28 06:53:57 <DukeOfURL> yes
Mar 28 06:56:18 <Any_Key>  
Mar 28 06:57:07 <ewanm89mob> Could you send the reply to my message about mokomakefile as I accidently deleted it?
Mar 28 07:00:26 <roh> ewanm89mob got it?
Mar 28 07:04:41 <ewanm89mob> thanks?
Mar 28 07:05:13 <roh> ewanm89mob i just tried make update with mokomakefile moments ago.. worked
Mar 28 07:07:50 <ewanm89mob> it takes a while to get those revs and certs!
Mar 28 07:08:23 <roh> yep... how fast is your connection?
Mar 28 07:08:57 <roh> i sit behind 4.6mbit sdsl and it took a few hours to pull all tars and the mtn database blob the first time
Mar 28 07:09:14 <roh> an update runs though in minutes
Mar 28 07:10:19 <ewanm89mob> 3.5Mbps Down 0.5Mbps up!
Mar 28 07:11:39 <roh> *sigh* .. seems i need to get a microtorch to remove the broken bt from my gta01bv02
Mar 28 07:15:18 <ewanm89> It dosen't us the network fully though!
Mar 28 07:18:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03jiang_li * r1525 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-simplemediaplayer/ (beep/mainwin.c configure.ac): 
Mar 28 07:18:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: this modify do following change:
Mar 28 07:18:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: 1) Do not claim the version number of libopenmoko(since it seems i can not get it);
Mar 28 07:18:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: 2) generate a config file when the player first run to lower the occupy of the cpu and memmory;
Mar 28 07:18:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: 3) modify the GUI layout to suite the real phone.
Mar 28 07:20:19 <ewanm89> So I keep running update and hope?
Mar 28 07:27:04 <koen> ah, the panel plugin finally connects to gsmd
Mar 28 07:33:07 <TRIsoft> morning
Mar 28 07:34:23 <DukeOfURL> hey
Mar 28 07:34:50 <DukeOfURL> counter
Mar 28 07:34:50 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 04:25:09 (9.184 +-7.0 days) (653)
Mar 28 07:46:45 * WiggleCat is flummoxed
Mar 28 07:46:59 <ewanm89> Yeah I'm passed the mokomake errors!
Mar 28 07:47:26 * WiggleCat too.. and the 18 million hours of compiling... and now my problem is....
Mar 28 07:47:36 <WiggleCat> i can't find what it compiled
Mar 28 07:48:15 <WiggleCat> until now that is :)
Mar 28 07:49:50 <roh> build/tmp/deploy/images/
Mar 28 07:51:21 <ewanm89> I'm still downloading, svn tree now!
Mar 28 07:52:50 <WiggleCat> yeah, I found them 10 seconds after typing that roh, thanks anyway :)
Mar 28 07:52:55 <ewanm89> Yey, now building!
Mar 28 07:53:05 <Any_Key> don't worry, first time it takes a lot of time
Mar 28 07:53:20 * WiggleCat suggests ewanm89 gets a coffe, goes on holiday and then comes back
Mar 28 07:53:41 <WiggleCat> it took ages for me...
Mar 28 07:55:37 * Any_Key thinks about recompiling it back for arm when i'll get Neo
Mar 28 07:55:43 * ewanm89 is going to school and is going to pray it is done by the time he gets home!
Mar 28 07:56:10 * ewanm89 has the same worries as Any_Key too
Mar 28 07:56:20 <ewanm89> :)
Mar 28 07:57:11 <Any_Key> nightbuild it's the keyword
Mar 28 07:57:48 <ewanm89> Dad won't let me, this way I just have to makesure I'm the first one back in!
Mar 28 07:58:34 <Any_Key> good luck with it
Mar 28 07:58:39 <ewanm89> Does it use GCC?
Mar 28 07:58:49 <Any_Key> yep
Mar 28 07:59:13 <ewanm89> Me should do it on Gentoo over Debian then :)
Mar 28 08:00:02 <ewanm89> The extra optimisation would have been very usefull
Mar 28 08:00:07 <Any_Key> pure Debian not good enough?
Mar 28 08:01:01 <koen> gcc -noatime -OMG
Mar 28 08:01:04 <ewanm89> I use a customised version of sid, I haven't got roung to recompiling and optimising GCC yet. Done the kernel though!
Mar 28 08:01:46 <ewanm89> I have a slow processor too
Mar 28 08:02:31 <ewanm89> Are /home/moko/oa/packages/*/*.bb files important?
Mar 28 08:02:59 <Any_Key> ewanm89, apt-build --help for you service
Mar 28 08:03:32 <ewanm89> Yes, I know I can rebuild gc when I want to!
Mar 28 08:03:36 <rwhitby> oa is not there
Mar 28 08:03:51 <ewanm89> That is the error it gave?
Mar 28 08:04:03 <ewanm89> s/?/!/
Mar 28 08:04:03 <apt> ewanm89 meant: That is the error it gave!
Mar 28 08:04:11 <rwhitby> correct - it's another tree which is used internally in openmoko but not used externally yet
Mar 28 08:04:31 <koen> rwhitby: s/used internally in openmoko but not used externally yet/used by harald/
Mar 28 08:04:42 <rwhitby> koen: perhaps I should get mokomakefile to remove that from bbfiles
Mar 28 08:04:48 <koen> yeah
Mar 28 08:05:32 <ewanm89> Maybe just supress the error so the code is available again when needed!
Mar 28 08:07:25 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03rwhitby * r60 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openmoko-HEAD/ (remove-oa-tree-reference.patch series): Remove oa tree reference from site.conf
Mar 28 08:08:09 <rwhitby> ewanm89: the oa code is not available, and it's a simple matter of removing that patch if it does become relevant.
Mar 28 08:08:56 <ewanm89> sorted then!
Mar 28 08:10:38 <ewanm89> Does anyone know why the oa code isn't available?
Mar 28 08:12:42 <koen> ewanm89: http://openalchemy.org/pipermail/openalchemy-general/2007-March/000009.html
Mar 28 08:15:42 <ewanm89> The build system needs a major cleanup then!
Mar 28 08:19:24 <koen> indeed
Mar 28 08:19:33 <koen> I gave up on o-a a few months ago
Mar 28 08:19:41 <koen> harald picked up my work where I left
Mar 28 08:27:05 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03zhiyong_sun * r1526 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-gsm/src/ (moko-gsm-conn.c moko-gsm-conn.h openmoko-panel-gsm.c): just reset G call back function time, and redefine the GSM signal value ENUM, call load image function when the value sure changed.
Mar 28 08:43:33 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1527 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: 
Mar 28 08:43:33 <CIA-16> openmoko: increase backup battery charging current to 400uA.
Mar 28 08:43:33 <CIA-16> openmoko: This should be safe, since we are limited at 3.0V, and the battery spec says
Mar 28 08:43:33 <CIA-16> openmoko: below 3.0V we can charge with up to 500uA.
Mar 28 08:43:33 <CIA-16> openmoko: This should help the https://bugzilla.internal.openmoko.org/show_bug.cgi?id=111 to some extent.
Mar 28 08:43:36 <CIA-16> openmoko: If this is not enough, we can still bypass the output resistor (BBCR=1)
Mar 28 08:59:31 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03tony_guan * r1528 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (7 files): 
Mar 28 08:59:31 <CIA-16> openmoko: Improved the auto-completion algorithm taking advantage of last search results.
Mar 28 08:59:31 <CIA-16> openmoko: replaced the strlen to avoid the warning messages.
Mar 28 09:00:04 <hrw> morning
Mar 28 09:00:20 <TRIsoft> morning hrw
Mar 28 09:01:34 <xkr47> morning :)
Mar 28 09:02:14 <hrw> something interesting changed in software since yesterday?
Mar 28 09:02:40 <koen> hrw: http://shiny.thorne.id.au/2007/03/aw-but-i-want-one.html
Mar 28 09:02:51 <koen> hrw: the gsm panel applet now works with gsmd
Mar 28 09:03:38 <hrw> koen: o.. thats good news
Mar 28 09:03:43 <hrw> time to put sim in neo
Mar 28 09:04:08 <hrw> and time to try to get svn account to fix some typos in stuff
Mar 28 09:04:19 <hrw> like 'swithc' in dfu-util ;D
Mar 28 09:07:56 <xkr47> :)
Mar 28 09:10:35 <xkr47> esac!
Mar 28 09:17:44 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[File_Open_Dialog]]
Mar 28 09:41:44 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: SOS - uboot drowned ;) and 1 other mails
Mar 28 09:41:44 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
Mar 28 09:46:43 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
Mar 28 10:17:44 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[File_Open_Dialog]]
Mar 28 10:30:32 <Elrond> counter
Mar 28 10:30:33 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 01:29:26 (9.062 +-7.0 days) (654)
**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Wed Mar 28 10:36:56 2007
Mar 28 10:49:07 <WiggleCat> counter
Mar 28 10:49:07 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 01:10:52 (9.049 +-7.0 days) (655)
Mar 28 11:31:56 * balrog-kun has two openmoko-footer's running on one display :)
Mar 28 11:32:20 * xkr47 wants openmoko-looking slippers
Mar 28 11:32:36 <xkr47> ;)
Mar 28 11:43:54 <CoreDump|afk> !ombug 212
Mar 28 11:43:55 <cdbot2> * * Bug 212, Status: RESOLVED (FIXED), Created: Unknown
Mar 28 11:43:56 <cdbot2> * * mickey(AT)vanille-media.de: Charging seems completely broken
Mar 28 11:43:57 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=212
Mar 28 11:45:42 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1529 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/ (3 files in 2 dirs): add parsing of +CMS errors according to GSM 07.05 (Philipp Zabel)
Mar 28 11:45:58 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1530 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/include/gsmd/ts0707.h: fix typo (Philipp Zabel)
Mar 28 11:46:43 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: SOS - uboot drowned ;)
Mar 28 11:49:05 <ebbe> Hi, I can see in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko that a lot of suggestions has come up for wifi chips, but does any one know if we are closer to having wifi in this device?
Mar 28 11:49:05 <aloril> When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some model later this year probably will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F
Mar 28 11:51:01 <ebbe> Okay, but what's the probability?
Mar 28 11:51:49 <hrw> ebbe: recently they choose 2 chips to test
Mar 28 11:52:04 <hrw> so time will show but probably will be wifi in final version
Mar 28 11:52:04 <guaqua> those take consideration
Mar 28 11:52:31 <ebbe> hrw: Sounds good
Mar 28 11:52:43 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: How to add applications to openmoko image?
Mar 28 11:52:57 <ebbe> It's a must for wifi for me
Mar 28 11:54:07 <woglinde> counter
Mar 28 11:54:07 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, 2 days 00:05:52 (9.004 +-7.0 days) (656)
Mar 28 11:59:46 <LuitvD> Hello y'all :)
Mar 28 12:02:28 <SpeedEvil> Hello.
Mar 28 12:02:33 <SpeedEvil> Have you heard the news?
Mar 28 12:02:47 <LuitvD> what news?
Mar 28 12:02:51 <SpeedEvil> Dunno.
Mar 28 12:02:52 <LuitvD> that p1 is ready?
Mar 28 12:02:55 <LuitvD> counter
Mar 28 12:02:55 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 23:57:05 (8.998 +-7.0 days) (657)
Mar 28 12:03:01 <SpeedEvil> Sorry :)
Mar 28 12:03:04 <LuitvD> :P
Mar 28 12:03:27 <LuitvD> ah well, haven't got any money anyways :)
Mar 28 12:03:30 * balrog-kun has a P4 (by Intel)
Mar 28 12:03:41 * SpeedEvil has a PII - also by intel.
Mar 28 12:03:52 * LuitvD has the same as SpeedEvil 
Mar 28 12:04:05 <LuitvD> and a P3 laptop :)
Mar 28 12:04:17 <LuitvD> anyways, can't wait for P1+
Mar 28 12:04:27 <SpeedEvil> :/
Mar 28 12:04:31 <LuitvD> :P
Mar 28 12:04:36 <hrw> I prefer amd
Mar 28 12:04:43 * XorA remebers the P1 and its inability to divide
Mar 28 12:04:43 * LuitvD too
Mar 28 12:05:05 * SpeedEvil still has a working pentium laptop with the F00F bug.
Mar 28 12:05:22 <XorA> SpeedEvil: that always sounded rude
Mar 28 12:05:24 * LuitvD runs an AMD Athlon64 X2 :)
Mar 28 12:06:16 * XorA runs a Xeon Dual Core
Mar 28 12:06:20 <hrw> I change neo1973 batteries with 3rdparty nokia charger made by f00f company
Mar 28 12:06:30 * hrw runs
Mar 28 12:06:43 <XorA> oh and an old amd64
Mar 28 12:06:44 <LuitvD> hrw: tricky :)
Mar 28 12:12:57 <alphaone> Has anyone tried to flash a recent rootfs?
Mar 28 12:13:10 <alphaone> From buildhost.openmoko.org?
Mar 28 12:14:13 <alphaone> I get lots of hardlink-foo errors when the kernel tries to mount the rootfs and the resulting init process spews errors all over the place.
Mar 28 12:14:42 <hrw> alphaone: first flash newer uboot or erase rootfs nand
Mar 28 12:14:44 <alphaone> An older rootfs works just fine
Mar 28 12:15:12 <alphaone> hrw: I have a new u-boot
Mar 28 12:15:36 <alphaone> And if I flash an older rootfs it works.
Mar 28 12:16:44 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]]
Mar 28 12:18:01 <Elrond> Is there no jffs2ck?
Mar 28 12:18:45 <hrw> Elrond: jffs2 do not have fsck
Mar 28 12:19:06 <hrw> alphaone: enter uboot, nand erase rootfs partition, flash new rootfs
Mar 28 12:20:48 <Elrond> hrw - If jffs2 can have inconsitencies, there should be some fsck....
Mar 28 12:22:46 <alphaone> that was nand erase.e, right?
Mar 28 12:23:38 <alphaone> Okay, nand erase seems to have that functionality already
Mar 28 12:27:00 <hrw> Elrond: it do selfcheck during mount
Mar 28 12:27:03 <koen|lab> Elrond: jffs2 doesn't keep the inode tree on-'disk', so it will do a sort of 'fsck' on mount
Mar 28 12:27:10 <koen|lab> logfs ftw!
Mar 28 12:28:08 <Elrond> What's logfs?
Mar 28 12:28:23 <Elrond> hrw, koen|lab - Ahhm. That's why some people claim it doesn't scale?
Mar 28 12:28:32 <koen|lab> correct
Mar 28 12:28:40 <koen|lab> it has to keep in memory as well....
Mar 28 12:28:49 <koen|lab> so you waste time during mount and ram during operation
Mar 28 12:29:06 <koen|lab> logfs has a 'super inode' that was the tree attached
Mar 28 12:29:33 <koen|lab> Elrond: and jffs2 has 32bit pointers, so it can't do >4G
Mar 28 12:29:43 <koen|lab> logfs uses compressed 64bit pointers
Mar 28 12:31:42 <Elrond> Where's the logfs homepage? And has it chances to get mainline?
Mar 28 12:35:40 <alphaone> hrw: Thanks, that fixed it. I thought the jffs was padded so it didn't make a difference...
Mar 28 12:37:17 <Elrond> You don't mean that one, right?  http://sourceforge.net/projects/logfs/
Mar 28 12:39:02 <koen|lab> nope
Mar 28 12:39:23 <koen|lab> the one Jörn Engel is writing
Mar 28 12:40:21 <hrw> Elrond: jffs need 20s to mount 512MB flash
Mar 28 12:41:43 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
Mar 28 12:42:43 <mjr> sounds like one doesn't want to use jffs on the microsd. But luckily those do their own load balancing and stuff, yes?
Mar 28 12:42:43 <Elrond> hrw - Yuck. That's lots.
Mar 28 12:44:14 <koen|lab> mjr: jffs2 only makes sense on MTD
Mar 28 12:44:30 <koen|lab> microsd is a block device, which _should_ do its own wear-leveling
Mar 28 12:53:55 <mjr> koen, yep, just verifying
Mar 28 12:58:03 <koen|lab> mjr: you'd be surprised how many people hear about jffs2 and try to use in on flash cards
Mar 28 12:58:13 <mjr> indeed
Mar 28 12:58:24 <mjr> or well, maybe not
Mar 28 12:58:33 <mjr> surprised
Mar 28 12:58:37 <guaqua> so what are you planning to use on the flash cards?
Mar 28 12:59:01 <mjr> I was just thinking ext2 or something
Mar 28 12:59:25 <mjr> but if someone has a better suggestion...
Mar 28 13:00:52 <mjr> comes to mind that since we have a default microsd, it probably has a pre-existing format already
Mar 28 13:01:29 <koen|lab> on big cards: ext3, saves you fsck times if your phone crashed :)
Mar 28 13:01:36 <koen|lab> (and -noatime)
Mar 28 13:01:50 <koen|lab> on the neo you could even mount async
Mar 28 13:02:13 <jgm> Some sort of journalled filesystem makes sense, but not sure that it matters too much which one you choose considering the size of the environment it'll be serving
Mar 28 13:02:22 <guaqua> fat, for the compatibility ;)
Mar 28 13:02:43 * mjr is kinda squemish about journaling, since that increases writes to the flash, but probably in practice better, yes...
Mar 28 13:03:29 <woglinde> there is ext3 driver for windows
Mar 28 13:03:31 <jgm> If the card is write-leveling then I can't imagine you're going to hit any sort of limit before the cards are worth $0 anyway
Mar 28 13:05:17 <XorA> jgm: you can always use an external journal
Mar 28 13:05:39 <mjr> jgm, yes, that's what I try to tell myself ;)
Mar 28 13:06:37 <jgm> XorA: where though?  Is there some sort of useful static internal storage available in the Neo?
Mar 28 13:07:13 <XorA> jgm: nope, peice of paper :-)
Mar 28 13:07:47 <jgm> Ah ;)
Mar 28 13:07:55 <SpeedEvil> And if the write leveling actually works perfectly.
Mar 28 13:07:58 <mjr> Mm, yeah. "User: Please write this down..."
Mar 28 13:08:00 <SpeedEvil> However.
Mar 28 13:08:18 <jgm> Doesn't have to be perfect, just vaguely functional
Mar 28 13:08:23 <SpeedEvil> A thousand writes per second can go on for several years on an appropriately wear levelled 512M device
Mar 28 13:08:29 <prom> .o(why dont you just use ext3 and be happy? *g*)
Mar 28 13:08:40 <mjr> journaling over gprs!
Mar 28 13:08:53 <mjr> prom, we can.
Mar 28 13:08:57 <SpeedEvil> over iSCSI!
Mar 28 13:09:02 <mjr> SpeedEvil, yes, that!
Mar 28 13:09:13 <jgm> mjr: Guaranteed to get you back up and running in the case of a crash within a couple of weeks...
Mar 28 13:09:14 <mjr> finally, a sane use for iSCSI over GPRS on the Moko
Mar 28 13:10:01 <mjr> (it is sane, guys, right?)
Mar 28 13:10:03 <jgm> Trimming that sentence down a bit to "a sane use for iSCSI over GPRS" should tell us all we need to know :)
Mar 28 13:10:22 <rwhitby> "We
Mar 28 13:10:22 <rwhitby> now have the ability to alter the firmware of the GSM chipset"
Mar 28 13:10:24 <rwhitby> wow
Mar 28 13:10:47 <TobiX> Isn't that an oxymoron?
Mar 28 13:10:54 <mjr> by the way, I hear there's been some licensing misunderstandings with the GPS chip people; anyone know more spesifically?
Mar 28 13:11:07 <jgm> Ooh, interested to hear the definition of 'alter' there.  Is it hack-an-image or is it open now?
Mar 28 13:11:28 <rwhitby> "we" == openmoko under very strict NDAs I expect.
Mar 28 13:11:34 * mjr expects same
Mar 28 13:11:53 <prom> jgm: you are joking, right? :)
Mar 28 13:12:07 <jgm> Normally :)
Mar 28 13:14:45 <Elrond> rwhitby - I remember LaF0rge tried to get his hands non the gsm firmware source/buildenv.
Mar 28 13:14:55 <Elrond> ... probably under heavy nda ;o)
Mar 28 13:15:21 <rwhitby> Elrond: LaF0rge made that statement I quoted in an email to the gsmd-devel list in the last hour.
Mar 28 13:16:31 <Elrond> Ahh. :-)
Mar 28 13:17:08 <rwhitby> night all
Mar 28 13:17:31 <Elrond> Night rwhitby 
Mar 28 13:21:33 <WiggleCat> for (int counter=0; counter < 2 ; counter++) counter;
Mar 28 13:26:04 <suma> counter
Mar 28 13:26:04 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 22:33:55 (8.940 +-7.0 days) (658)
Mar 28 13:31:18 <quickdev> counter
Mar 28 13:31:18 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 22:28:41 (8.937 +-7.0 days) (659)
Mar 28 13:32:12 <guaqua> counter
Mar 28 13:32:12 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 22:27:47 (8.936 +-7.0 days) (660)
Mar 28 13:32:24 <guaqua> oh wow, it's .1 days less now
Mar 28 13:34:20 <quickdev> yeah :)
Mar 28 13:34:39 <WiggleCat> a week!
Mar 28 13:34:52 <quickdev> or two ;)
Mar 28 13:35:03 <amarsh04> someone has been busy with linux kernel development:
Mar 28 13:35:30 <amarsh04> [ Rod Whitby ]
Mar 28 13:35:30 <amarsh04>   * arm/ixp4xx: Enable PATA_ARTOP for the nas100d and dsmg600.
Mar 28 13:35:30 <amarsh04>   * arm/ixp4xx: Enable RTC for the nas100d
Mar 28 13:35:30 <amarsh04>   * Add nas100d Ethernet MAC setup support.
Mar 28 13:35:30 <amarsh04>   * Add temporary hack to get Artop PATA support going on the nas100d.
Mar 28 13:40:12 <zecke> LaF0rge: hey, could you please install subversion from the backports on buildhost-old?
Mar 28 13:40:30 * WiggleCat wonders
Mar 28 13:40:38 <WiggleCat> Hello Moko...
Mar 28 13:40:45 <guaqua> :D
Mar 28 13:41:08 <guaqua> i'm thinking that might be the coolest thing to steal from another company :D
Mar 28 13:43:09 <WiggleCat> :D
Mar 28 14:20:27 <DukeOfURL> counter
Mar 28 14:20:27 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 21:39:32 (8.902 +-7.0 days) (661)
Mar 28 14:25:57 <rboehme> If P1 phones are supposed to be shipping in a couple of weeks, any word on when the preorders will go up? The end of the month approaches, fast.
Mar 28 14:29:22 <DukeOfURL> It's about time for a status report
Mar 28 14:30:21 <status> report!
Mar 28 14:30:32 <DukeOfURL> heh
Mar 28 14:47:39 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03mickey * r1531 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard-qvga/ (168 files in 2 dirs): themes: add openmoko-standard-qvga. closes #197
Mar 28 14:48:31 <PBeck> hi
Mar 28 14:56:43 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: How to add applications to openmoko image?
Mar 28 14:56:57 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03mickey * r1532 10/trunk/oe/ (2 files in 2 dirs): oe: add openmoko-theme-standard-qvga recipe
Mar 28 14:59:48 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03mickey * r1533 10/trunk/oe/conf/distro/include/preferred-openmoko-versions.inc: oe/conf: resolve merge conflict
Mar 28 15:04:41 <koen> mickeyl: I think you want to merge back changes to openmoko-theme* from OE :)
Mar 28 15:04:55 <mickeyl> probably, yeah
Mar 28 15:04:56 <koen> mickeyl: unless the artwork is armv4t specific ;)
Mar 28 15:05:03 <mickeyl> ah
Mar 28 15:05:05 <mickeyl> yes, very specific
Mar 28 15:05:07 <mickeyl> little endian even
Mar 28 15:05:08 <mickeyl> ;)
Mar 28 15:07:08 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03mickey * r1534 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/ (2 files): oe/openmoko-theme-*: artwork is not really architecture specific (taken from OE)
Mar 28 15:07:57 <Magon> mickeyl: how many project you have at SoC?
Mar 28 15:11:52 <mickeyl> 60 applications minus a few duplicates
Mar 28 15:11:56 <mickeyl> no idea how many slots we get assigned
Mar 28 15:12:26 * koen thinks ~4 slots
Mar 28 15:12:44 <zecke> mine is the most important one :}
Mar 28 15:13:14 <hrw> 60 applications????
Mar 28 15:13:21 <hrw> how many mentors?
Mar 28 15:13:34 <koen> zecke: go webkit!
Mar 28 15:13:40 <koen> zecke: go tinderbox!
Mar 28 15:14:20 <koen> mickeyl: what do you think about using gpe-dm (not gpe-login!) instead of kdrive-no-dm-init?
Mar 28 15:14:33 <koen> mickeyl: it would relaunch X after a crash
Mar 28 15:14:34 <mickeyl> i don't think anything yet
Mar 28 15:14:43 <mickeyl> i need to think about the issue
Mar 28 15:14:54 <mickeyl> but relaunching sounds like a sane thing on a phone w/o a keyboard
Mar 28 15:15:08 <koen> I know the o-hand people vomit on anything containing the 'gpe' substring....
Mar 28 15:15:29 <hrw> bloated gpe?
Mar 28 15:16:17 <koen> http://projects.linuxtogo.org/plugins/scmsvn/viewcvs.php/trunk/base/gpe-dm/gpe-dm.c?rev=8312&root=gpe&view=auto
Mar 28 15:16:22 <koen> just a few lines of C
Mar 28 15:16:43 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Debug board - giving up
Mar 28 15:16:50 <Magon> mickeyl: it was about 5 few days before i think, or not?
Mar 28 15:17:09 <mickeyl> yeah
Mar 28 15:17:15 <mickeyl> people added like crazy on the weekend
Mar 28 15:17:32 <Magon> ;-)
Mar 28 15:17:41 <Magon> so you can choose now
Mar 28 15:18:10 <mickeyl> ya
Mar 28 15:18:11 <mickeyl> good thing
Mar 28 15:18:13 <koen> mickeyl: it's deadline time for dutch uni's, so lots of people held off writing stuff
Mar 28 15:18:25 <mickeyl> hehe
Mar 28 15:19:02 <Magon> koen: what deadlines?
Mar 28 15:19:03 <mickeyl> sorry i need to go outside for a while, 20 degrees is just too tempting
Mar 28 15:19:47 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1535 10/trunk/doc/hardware/HXD8v011/ (. gpio.txt pmu-voltage.txt): add gpio and pmu voltages for HXD8v011
Mar 28 15:19:59 <koen> Magon: project and assignments, the next few weeks will be exam time
Mar 28 15:20:54 <Magon> koen: for winter or summer term?
Mar 28 15:21:51 <koen> Magon: we have a few exam periods per year, not just on term boundaries
Mar 28 15:22:26 <Magon> oh ok, we have just 2
Mar 28 15:47:52 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1536 10/trunk/doc/hardware/HXD8v011/gpio.txt: add correct GP*CON values
Mar 28 15:54:49 * koen reads http://bec-systems.com/web/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=67&Itemid=9
Mar 28 16:44:07 <DukeOfURL> can the display be read without the backlight?  will the phone detect ambient light and adjust the backlight?
Mar 28 16:46:47 <prom> DukeOfURL: i dont know about 1. 2 is unlikely because that would require a light sensor. it wouldnt be technically complicated to add one, but the case would have to be changed.
Mar 28 16:47:31 <guaqua> how does the proximity sensor work in iphone btw? and is it really of any use?
Mar 28 16:47:35 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1537 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-machtypes.patch: add HXD8 machine type
Mar 28 16:48:08 <DukeOfURL> what are the power requirements of the vibrator?  is it expensive?
Mar 28 16:51:06 <SpeedEvil> I'd guess 300mW or so.
Mar 28 16:55:10 <Elrond> What is "HXD8"?
Mar 28 16:55:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1538 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: 
Mar 28 16:55:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: move pcf50606 driver to generic 'drivers' directory. Only the initial register
Mar 28 16:55:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: configuration is part of neo1973 specific code.
Mar 28 16:56:04 <koen> Elrond: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/doc/hardware/HXD8v011/
Mar 28 16:56:17 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1539 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2410_udc.patch: 
Mar 28 16:56:17 <CIA-16> openmoko: move the usb pullup enable/disable function in board specific code, rather than
Mar 28 16:56:17 <CIA-16> openmoko: having it in the generic s3c2410_udc.c
Mar 28 16:56:26 <rob_w> how is it going #openmoko ?
Mar 28 16:56:48 <guaqua> hello moko
Mar 28 16:56:48 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1540 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/boot-menu.patch: make it apply to other recent changes
Mar 28 16:57:14 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1541 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/neo1973-chargefast.patch: move the 500mA fast charge enable/disable code to board-speficic code and out of usbtty.c
Mar 28 16:57:47 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1542 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (series uboot-hxd8.patch uboot-smdk2440.patch): add SMDK2440 and HXD8 support (untested)
Mar 28 17:08:45 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1543 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-smdk2440.patch: update linker script to assure the lowlevel nand driver is within the first 4k (for steppingstone)
Mar 28 17:09:49 <rob_w> laforge is doing some work today , looks great 
Mar 28 17:10:02 <guaqua> at least committing :)
Mar 28 17:11:43 <koen> Elrond: "Configuation settings for the FIC HXD8"
Mar 28 17:11:55 <dho> Hm
Mar 28 17:11:58 <koen> Elrond: looks like another s3c24xx based FIC phone
Mar 28 17:12:11 <dho> How much different will the september implementation be from a hardware standpoint?
Mar 28 17:12:19 <SpeedEvil> Not very.
Mar 28 17:12:23 <SpeedEvil> Reportedly.
Mar 28 17:12:34 <SpeedEvil> it's going to have faster CPU, and wireless.
Mar 28 17:12:37 <guaqua> what's the wifi gossip about it?
Mar 28 17:12:50 <SpeedEvil> wireless is almost certain.
Mar 28 17:12:52 <dho> Ok
Mar 28 17:13:01 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: 2440? or 2443?
Mar 28 17:13:12 <Vegar> what I'm interested in is battery lifetime
Mar 28 17:13:15 <dho> Faster CPU doesn't imply ``randomly reassigning GPIO pins'' does it?
Mar 28 17:13:24 <dho> :)
Mar 28 17:13:30 <koen> dho: no, but fixing prior HW fuck-ups does
Mar 28 17:13:40 <dho> Right.
Mar 28 17:13:59 <dho> mooi
Mar 28 17:14:08 * dho goes back to work
Mar 28 17:16:11 <Elrond> Vegar - Hey, yeah. I'm also more interested in battery lifetime.
Mar 28 17:16:48 <Vegar> I guess it's pretty early to make estimates, but some rough numbers would be nice
Mar 28 17:17:37 <Elrond> Vegar - SpeedEvil did rough estimates. Check the wiki.
Mar 28 17:18:01 <koen> root@fic-gta01:~$ uptime
Mar 28 17:18:01 <koen>  17:18:08 up 8 days,  3:06,  4 users,  load average: 0.00, 0.00, 0.00
Mar 28 17:18:09 <koen> still hasn't locked up
Mar 28 17:18:13 <SpeedEvil> These are based _solely_ on the datasheets, plus a fudge factor.
Mar 28 17:18:24 <SpeedEvil> I have no hardware.
Mar 28 17:18:27 <Elrond> Vegar - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Power_Management#Approximate_power_draw_of_various_subsystems
Mar 28 17:18:42 <SpeedEvil> (/msg me for my address if you want to change that).
Mar 28 17:19:31 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - p(O?)H[59] did some measurements it seems. At least his flickr pics suggest that.
Mar 28 17:19:54 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - P0 hardware is - almost - worthwhile for this though.
Mar 28 17:19:57 <SpeedEvil> err
Mar 28 17:20:02 <SpeedEvil> s/while/less/
Mar 28 17:20:14 <Elrond> Right. 30mA baseline ;)
Mar 28 17:20:17 <SpeedEvil> it's got power consumption bugs
Mar 28 17:20:27 * prpplague looks to see if the power draw is similiar
Mar 28 17:21:12 <Vegar> assuming that the LCD is turned off when idle..
Mar 28 17:21:36 <SpeedEvil> A major component is the CPU at idle, rahter than the LCD.
Mar 28 17:21:38 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - http://www.flickr.com/photos/ph5/421944319/in/photostream/ and the pic to "right side".
Mar 28 17:21:47 * SpeedEvil looks
Mar 28 17:22:29 <SpeedEvil> oh - yeah - that.
Mar 28 17:22:55 <SpeedEvil> That's well, interesting, but not really informative.
Mar 28 17:23:09 <Elrond> We should ask ph5 for data ;)
Mar 28 17:23:16 <SpeedEvil> Multiple discharges in different states may be interesting.
Mar 28 17:23:24 <Elrond> Right.
Mar 28 17:23:26 <SpeedEvil> But in practice, the data will be clearer with P1.
Mar 28 17:23:38 <prpplague> Elrond: be nice to have the voltage that each of those are at
Mar 28 17:24:03 <SpeedEvil> And the trivial way is to jam a shim into the battery lead.
Mar 28 17:24:28 <Elrond> "jam a shim"?
Mar 28 17:24:38 <SpeedEvil> Or easier - connect it to a 4V supply through a resistor, and use the ADC to read out current.
Mar 28 17:24:45 <guaqua> jam that shim, homeboy
Mar 28 17:24:57 <SpeedEvil> You take a bit of copper tape, and a bit of insulating tape.
Mar 28 17:25:19 <SpeedEvil> Out of this, you form a thin insulated sandwich of conductors.
Mar 28 17:25:46 <SpeedEvil> you connect a current meter across the conductors, and push it into the battery hole.
Mar 28 17:25:57 <SpeedEvil> then push the battery down.
Mar 28 17:26:10 <SpeedEvil> this gives you a nice secure way to measure it.
Mar 28 17:27:51 <Elrond> Ahh
Mar 28 17:27:54 <Vegar> like this? conductor | insulation | conductor
Mar 28 17:28:03 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Mar 28 17:28:39 <Vegar> clever
Mar 28 17:29:38 <Vegar> the arcticle says "100uA"; is that micro-amps?
Mar 28 17:29:40 <Elrond> I like pH5's freeciv-on-neo pic. ;)
Mar 28 17:29:49 <SpeedEvil> Vegar: yes - for what?
Mar 28 17:29:55 <SpeedEvil> was that the standby RAM current?
Mar 28 17:30:12 <Vegar> Power_off mode
Mar 28 17:30:18 <SpeedEvil> Ah.
Mar 28 17:31:31 <Vegar> so it should really say µA? (UTF8)
Mar 28 17:31:48 <SpeedEvil> probably, yes.
Mar 28 17:32:09 * SpeedEvil has no micro key.
Mar 28 17:32:14 <prpplague> Elrond: with the addition of a 802.11, you are looking at adding about 1.5W to the overall power consumption
Mar 28 17:32:38 <SpeedEvil> That's rather pessimistic.
Mar 28 17:32:52 <SpeedEvil> Even my zydas wifi dongle doesn't use that much.
Mar 28 17:33:01 <Vegar> 1.5W?
Mar 28 17:33:03 <Vegar> not mW?
Mar 28 17:33:04 <Elrond> prpplague - Well, if the wifi can be turned of completely (no power consumption), I don't care for wifi ;)
Mar 28 17:33:27 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: 3.3v at 450mA peak for tx and 250mA for receive
Mar 28 17:33:33 <mwester> It doubles as a hand-warmer in winter when operating in that mode, I guess?
Mar 28 17:34:56 <prpplague> Elrond: yea, in low power modes you are looking at only 10mA even less in sleep modes
Mar 28 17:35:26 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: you measured the performance of your zydas dongle?
Mar 28 17:35:41 <SpeedEvil> I did, but I forgot :(
Mar 28 17:35:52 <SpeedEvil> IIRC it was 800mW or so active.
Mar 28 17:35:58 <SpeedEvil> I don't remember though.
Mar 28 17:36:03 <roh> prpplague don't say mA if you mean microAmpere
Mar 28 17:36:06 <roh> ;)
Mar 28 17:36:18 <Vegar> SpeedEvil: that's pretty much, isn't it?
Mar 28 17:36:22 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: that sounds correct for receive only
Mar 28 17:36:26 <prpplague> roh: ?
Mar 28 17:36:45 <roh> wifi-stuff, especially one designed for mobiles is not at power-req. of 1999 anymore
Mar 28 17:37:27 <prpplague> roh: i'm sorry, i'm not understanding you
Mar 28 17:37:58 <ewanm89> I'm still waiting for openmoko to compile!
Mar 28 17:39:12 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: to get a good test you'd need to simulate some average tx and rx traffic
Mar 28 17:40:35 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: we basically use netcat on both sides to generate an even taffic flow, 1024 bytes up, 1024 bytes down, repeat
Mar 28 17:41:18 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: you even out around 1.1W 
Mar 28 17:41:18 * drath checks his iptraf stats, and sees 10:1 down:up ;)
Mar 28 17:41:36 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: but do peak around 1.5W with heavy traffic
Mar 28 17:43:31 <prpplague> drath: you are getting 10:1 down:up? with what kind of usage? 
Mar 28 17:43:44 <drath> everyday-usage
Mar 28 17:44:08 <drath> i suppose an enduser device would always be around that
Mar 28 17:44:10 * k-s[WORK] is away: Gone away for now.
Mar 28 17:44:31 <prpplague> drath: web surfing, email, ssh client? that type of stuff?
Mar 28 17:44:34 <drath> yeah
Mar 28 17:44:52 <drath> well, it's a bit biased atm, as i've been pulling larger packages lately
Mar 28 17:45:04 <drath> but i guess i'm always around 5:1
Mar 28 17:45:13 * prpplague grabs a handheld to look
Mar 28 17:45:45 <guaqua> it might even be higher ratio than 10:1
Mar 28 17:46:37 <drath> well, it's unlikely that you're going to leech a huge amount of music or videos with your moko
Mar 28 17:47:06 <guaqua> well if you only surf the web
Mar 28 17:47:18 <guaqua> http get isn't exactly heavy :)
Mar 28 17:47:27 <drath> i've just reset the counters, reloaded all of my open webpages
Mar 28 17:47:35 <drath> i'm at 5:1
Mar 28 17:47:57 <SpeedEvil> tcp negotiation hurts for small pages.
Mar 28 17:47:59 <prpplague> drath: yea did a quick test, i'm getting about 5:1 as well when looking at bytes
Mar 28 17:48:15 <prpplague> drath: packet wise i'm close to 1:1
Mar 28 17:48:30 <drath> yeah, but that's to be expected
Mar 28 17:48:48 <drath> with the ACKs
Mar 28 17:49:07 <drath> i actually have more outgoing packets than incoming
Mar 28 17:49:21 * drath wonders where they're going :)
Mar 28 17:49:56 <prpplague> drath: well you are looking at 250mA for rx and 450mA for tx
Mar 28 17:50:32 * prpplague runs a 5:1 byte test 
Mar 28 17:50:52 <drath> prpplague: do you have control over the packet sizes?
Mar 28 17:51:14 <drath> and, and drath == vmaster... decided to let go of my long-time nick
Mar 28 17:51:24 <prpplague> drath: yea, i can set the mtu on both sides
Mar 28 17:51:36 <prpplague> drath: oh, hehe
Mar 28 17:52:44 <prpplague> drath: hmm, a 5:1 does significant reduce the overall power, getting around 272mA at 3.3v
Mar 28 17:53:02 <prpplague> drath: which is roughly 900mW
Mar 28 17:53:31 <SpeedEvil> How fast can you come up and login to an AP?
Mar 28 17:53:52 <drath> prpplague: do you know how that varies with link quality?
Mar 28 17:54:06 <SpeedEvil> I'm wondering about completely shutting off the radio for seconds at a time, and using a caching proxy.
Mar 28 17:54:27 <drath> prpplague: when wifi is used as portable as in a phone, link quality might show a greater variance
Mar 28 17:54:56 <guaqua> SpeedEvil: there has to be a solution that works on the go
Mar 28 17:54:57 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: yea, the marvell chipset we are using has a power save mode and a sleep mode that allow for quick restart of the network connection
Mar 28 17:55:38 <prpplague> drath: i've got a pretty good link quality, i'd have to wheel the meter out in parking lot to check on low quality rates
Mar 28 17:55:49 <drath> heh, ok
Mar 28 17:56:01 <SpeedEvil> Alternatively, put foil over the stick.
Mar 28 17:56:21 <mwester> Fire up a microwave oven in the break room.
Mar 28 17:56:34 * prpplague checks datasheet
Mar 28 17:57:28 <Vegar> how is the display on the neo? crystal clear?
Mar 28 17:57:55 <drath> it's said to be clearer than that
Mar 28 17:57:59 * prpplague removes antenna and places metal box over device
Mar 28 17:58:29 * mwester thinks prpplague has just simulated mwester's office
Mar 28 17:58:42 <zecke|moko> hehe
Mar 28 17:59:19 <prpplague> drath: hmm, that did increase to 328mA@3.3v
Mar 28 17:59:31 <prpplague> drath: just a little over 1W
Mar 28 17:59:53 <SpeedEvil> Silly comment. Can you vary it under nominal V?
Mar 28 18:00:15 <SpeedEvil> It may be specced to 3.3V+-10%, for example.
Mar 28 18:01:36 <Georg_Miersch> Anyone succeeded to order phase 1 device?
Mar 28 18:01:36 <aloril> Georg_Miersch: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 28 18:01:53 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: not with the current board, i guess i could get the lab guy to replace the fixed resistor with a pot
Mar 28 18:01:54 <SpeedEvil> Not released yet.
Mar 28 18:02:08 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: but what really would that tell us?
Mar 28 18:02:18 * prpplague checks the variance
Mar 28 18:02:28 <SpeedEvil> It can use less power.
Mar 28 18:03:15 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: ahh, yea, the variance on the marvell chipset we are using is +-5%
Mar 28 18:03:49 * prpplague checks the datasheet again
Mar 28 18:04:53 <Georg_Miersch> Yes I know phase 1 device (neo1973) is about to be released but could anyone place an order and who is the person responsible to tell how to transfer money?
Mar 28 18:05:15 <guaqua> i think there will be info about it
Mar 28 18:05:20 <guaqua> it can't be done yet, Georg_Miersch 
Mar 28 18:05:23 <SpeedEvil> Georg_Miersch: no info.
Mar 28 18:05:41 <SpeedEvil> Subscribe to the email announce list.
Mar 28 18:05:43 <Georg_Miersch> okay, I will see what "announce mailing list" will tell us...
Mar 28 18:06:47 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: yea just +-5%
Mar 28 18:07:22 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: which means you could safely run down to around 3.15v
Mar 28 18:07:33 <SpeedEvil> Probably not that worth it.
Mar 28 18:07:46 <SpeedEvil> 10% is occasionally worth doing.
Mar 28 18:08:07 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: yea
Mar 28 18:08:11 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: i can see that
Mar 28 18:09:03 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: we will have a pretty good size battery for this next project, so as long as we are careful we should be to do well
Mar 28 18:15:19 <SpeedEvil> Large batteries make things much easier.
Mar 28 18:17:43 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Sport_tracker]]
Mar 28 18:20:22 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: indeed
Mar 28 18:21:40 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: we are looking to use a 1s3p 18650 2200mAh for our base battery and 2600mAh cells for our extended battery pack
Mar 28 18:22:30 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: basically a total of 6600mAh at 3.3v or 7800mAh at 3.3v
Mar 28 18:43:40 * ks-[AWAY_WORK] is back.
Mar 28 19:01:58 <pvanhoof> mickey|sports, ping
Mar 28 19:24:24 <balrog-kun> it would be nice if the directory http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ had some symlinks with "current" in their names pointing to the most recent build
Mar 28 19:24:32 <balrog-kun> for scripting purposes
Mar 28 19:36:02 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Not to mention, that it would be nice, if they were signed using gpg. ;)
Mar 28 19:36:29 <koen> balrog-kun: update OE and you get such behaviour
Mar 28 19:37:21 <koen> http://www.angstrom-distribution.org/unstable/images/20070325/fic-gta01/ <- the names without numbers are symlinks to the lastest builds
Mar 28 19:37:46 <Elrond> Ahh. :)
Mar 28 19:40:20 <StylusEater_Work> how much space does an openmoko image take up on disk? through OE compilation?
Mar 28 19:40:40 <koen> depends on your config
Mar 28 19:41:39 <koen> fits in 1GB with rm_work
Mar 28 19:42:06 <StylusEater_Work> ok...thx
Mar 28 19:42:23 <StylusEater_Work> are there any current "focus" areas?
Mar 28 19:42:54 <StylusEater_Work> within the source tree that need more work than other areas?
Mar 28 19:43:11 <koen> TBH, everything still needs *lots* of works
Mar 28 19:43:50 <StylusEater_Work> TBH?
Mar 28 19:43:58 <StylusEater_Work> to be honest?
Mar 28 19:44:06 <StylusEater_Work> k, thx
Mar 28 20:02:05 <Mandarino> :)
Mar 28 20:10:25 <LuitvD> helleau
Mar 28 20:11:06 <MortenLysgaard> Hi
Mar 28 20:49:05 <LuitvD> lol, that was a nice netsplit :)
Mar 28 21:16:44 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
Mar 28 21:17:39 <Kero> somebody already made a GPScoords-to-timezone table/library/whatever ?
Mar 28 21:19:55 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03laforge * r1544 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-smdk2440.patch: add proper 2440 initialization to head.S
Mar 28 21:21:55 <Elrond> prpplague - Does smdk2440 tell you anything?
Mar 28 21:22:57 * CM is hoping LaF0rge isn't working so much he might burn out
Mar 28 21:23:16 <drath> Elrond: smdk* are Samsung's eval boards for the S3C series
Mar 28 21:23:34 <drath> so smdk2440 is the dev board for their s3c2440 uC
Mar 28 21:25:42 <Elrond> drath - Ahh. :-)
Mar 28 21:26:05 <drath> 300/400mhz arm920t
Mar 28 21:26:09 <Elrond> So some next toy from fic will have an 2440. ;)
Mar 28 21:26:37 <drath> if they want an easy switch to a faster uC for P1+ then this one might be a natural choice
Mar 28 21:26:43 <Elrond> drath - Do you know of your head the power comsumption in relation to the s3c2410 ?
Mar 28 21:26:56 <prpplague> well, the smdk2440 board actually can use the 2443 cpu board as well
Mar 28 21:26:57 <drath> sorry, no idea
Mar 28 21:27:17 <prpplague> i actually think you have to order a 2440 board and then order a 2443 cpu board seperately
Mar 28 21:27:24 <drath> lol
Mar 28 21:27:35 <drath> 24A0 would've been nice
Mar 28 21:28:43 <Elrond> CM - Yep. Hope the same... I wonder why he works on new toys... is GTA01Bv04 fully ready now?
Mar 28 21:28:45 <prpplague> Elrond: what was your question on power consumption?
Mar 28 21:29:37 <SpeedEvil> I assume it's the relative power consumption of the 2440 and the 2410
Mar 28 21:30:17 <Elrond> prpplague - 2440/2443 in relation to 2410.  Will it eat more power?
Mar 28 21:30:29 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Right.
Mar 28 21:31:06 <drath> ARM 926EJ 24A0's Feature + Teak DSP + 3D(1M) + USB OTG 416FBGA - now that's a monster
Mar 28 21:31:39 <prpplague> Elrond: yea, we are calculating a 20 to 30% increase in cpu current
Mar 28 21:32:27 <Elrond> :-(
Mar 28 21:32:42 <Elrond> So I'll want the 2410.
Mar 28 21:32:53 <SpeedEvil> Well - it depends on the idle current.
Mar 28 21:33:03 <SpeedEvil> If they are teh same, then you don't care from that perspective.
Mar 28 21:33:20 <Elrond> Hmm, yeah.
Mar 28 21:34:14 <Elrond> For the same job it'll take less time (due to faster clock), so more current for that time doesn't hurt too much. But idle hurts.
Mar 28 21:35:43 <Elrond> Hi CoreDump
Mar 28 21:35:46 <prpplague> what was that url with the power states for neo?
Mar 28 21:35:54 <CoreDump|home> hi
Mar 28 21:36:04 <prpplague> nm found it
Mar 28 21:36:05 * SpeedEvil thinks
Mar 28 21:36:06 <SpeedEvil> oh
Mar 28 21:36:42 <_ASK> hey
Mar 28 21:36:55 <SpeedEvil> hey
Mar 28 21:37:57 <_ASK> what's the minimum RAM for openmoko?
Mar 28 21:37:58 <prpplague> actually from what i'm seeing the power increase shouldn't be that bad for just the cpu
Mar 28 21:38:23 <SpeedEvil> RAM can hurt.
Mar 28 21:38:30 <Elrond> prpplague - You mean <10%?
Mar 28 21:40:33 <balrog-kun> yay, u-boot menu
Mar 28 21:42:42 <prpplague> Elrond: from my test here, we are running 400mhz with a fairly heavy load and we are looking at about 420mW, which compared to our standard of around 320mW at 200mhz(similiar to whats posted for the neo), thats about at 31% increase
Mar 28 21:43:13 <SpeedEvil> Is that 400MHz RAM/... too?
Mar 28 21:43:28 <prpplague> Elrond: but thats still less than the 450mW when running at 266mhz on the 2410
Mar 28 21:44:18 <_ASK> 400 MHz RAM on a handheld?
Mar 28 21:44:21 <SpeedEvil> Can it be run at 200MHz?
Mar 28 21:44:30 <SpeedEvil> I mean - the power figure
Mar 28 21:44:44 <SpeedEvil> Does it include power drawn by RAM and other stuff.
Mar 28 21:44:53 <prpplague> SpeedEvil: 133mhz sdram
Mar 28 21:45:37 <_ASK> hope they release cheap DDR3 RAM soon
Mar 28 21:45:39 <Stephmw> would it make sense to programatically slow down the ram refresh?
Mar 28 21:45:45 <Stephmw> power-wise?
Mar 28 21:45:47 <_ASK> DDR3 consumes way les power
Mar 28 21:45:49 <SpeedEvil> Probably not.
Mar 28 21:46:07 <SpeedEvil> it's not really so much refresh, but bandwidth
Mar 28 21:46:16 <SpeedEvil> more transfer = more current
Mar 28 21:46:31 <Stephmw> ah. so quiescent = low power
Mar 28 21:46:38 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Mar 28 21:46:42 <_ASK> do you think openmoko can run with 32 mb of RAM?
Mar 28 21:47:03 <Elrond> _ASK - Will be tricky, I guess. X, Gtk, dbus, ...
Mar 28 21:47:32 <_ASK> i wonder if i'm too old already. my first windows 95 computer ran with 8mb.
Mar 28 21:47:46 <_ASK> now a phone doesn't work properly with 32...
Mar 28 21:47:54 <Elrond> _ASK - My first linux ran on 4mb. :-)
Mar 28 21:48:04 <SpeedEvil> My first PC was 4M.
Mar 28 21:48:07 <_ASK> well but console vs GUI
Mar 28 21:48:08 <Stephmw> well MY.... oh nevermind
Mar 28 21:48:23 <Elrond> My first pc was an 8086 with 1MB ;o)
Mar 28 21:48:26 <SpeedEvil> First computer was ZX81 - with the 16K expansion pack.
Mar 28 21:48:53 <Stephmw> mine was an Amstrad CPC 128k... with 3" floppy drive no less
Mar 28 21:48:59 <Stephmw> man, I was spoilt
Mar 28 21:49:15 <SpeedEvil> I moved onto a CPC512
Mar 28 21:49:19 <Elrond> Hmm, at those times I playd with 370s ;o)
Mar 28 21:49:28 <SpeedEvil> PCW8521 ratehr
Mar 28 21:49:38 <SpeedEvil> 8512 
Mar 28 21:49:43 <Stephmw> my next one was the Elrond's 8086, but with only 640k
Mar 28 21:49:44 <_ASK> 32 should be enough, don't you think?
Mar 28 21:49:56 <_ASK> i ask because i was thinking about porting it to the treo
Mar 28 21:49:58 <SpeedEvil> _ASK: It's quite irrelevant what we think.
Mar 28 21:50:05 <Stephmw> _ASK: 32mb should be doable... but you may have to trim
Mar 28 21:50:07 <SpeedEvil> The important thing is reality.
Mar 28 21:50:12 <Elrond> _ASK - Just try it?
Mar 28 21:50:21 <SpeedEvil> I think 32M should be possible, but maybe tough.
Mar 28 21:50:32 <Elrond> Right, it will be tough.
Mar 28 21:50:39 <Elrond> Shrink kernel, etc.
Mar 28 21:50:58 <SpeedEvil> Just do a console based phone.
Mar 28 21:51:00 <SpeedEvil> ncurses.
Mar 28 21:51:11 <Elrond> :-)
Mar 28 21:51:13 <_ASK> i'd rather stay with palmos =)
Mar 28 21:51:30 <Elrond> Someone in here had some phone-tui.... I forgot his nick.
Mar 28 21:51:41 <SpeedEvil> pavelm?
Mar 28 21:51:48 <Elrond> Probably. :)
Mar 28 21:52:23 <_ASK> nah, i think i'm going to insist that they make a neo phone with integrated keyboard.
Mar 28 21:52:59 * rwhitby just uses his Treo650 to type on the neo via bluetooth ...
Mar 28 21:53:06 <Elrond> _ASK - openmoko really is "use desktop tools on a phone".  For 32MB (without swap!) you have to be tough. :)
Mar 28 21:53:16 <SpeedEvil> Or ancient.
Mar 28 21:53:18 <Elrond> rwhitby - *g* :-)
Mar 28 21:53:27 * SpeedEvil still has a working 486/12 lappy.
Mar 28 21:53:35 * SpeedEvil still has a working 486/75/12 lappy.
Mar 28 21:53:54 <_ASK> i have three cats.
Mar 28 21:54:09 <guaqua> i like to eat hamburgers
Mar 28 21:54:28 <Stephmw> _ASK: my cat eats mice... http://rifers.org/paste/content/paste/4147/image
Mar 28 21:54:31 <_ASK> two of them are inherited instances of the other.
Mar 28 21:54:34 <Stephmw> _ASK: and squirrels, but no photos
Mar 28 21:55:22 <_ASK> nice kitty ;)
Mar 28 21:55:50 <guaqua> i like this discussion a lot better
Mar 28 21:55:52 <Stephmw> 15 squirrels last year ;)
Mar 28 21:56:04 <Stephmw> .. that we know of
Mar 28 21:56:30 <_ASK> ah... those little merciless assasins are so cute, aren't they?
Mar 28 22:01:29 <_ASK> http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono2.png
Mar 28 22:03:07 <Stephmw> hmmmm... looks familiar
Mar 28 22:03:10 <high-rez> looks like a crackberry
Mar 28 22:04:35 <Elrond> *berry... oh well. No, please not.
Mar 28 22:04:47 <_ASK> once i have the final design i will submit it to sean moss
Mar 28 22:04:54 <guaqua> too many buttons
Mar 28 22:05:05 <guaqua> i like simple joystick the best
Mar 28 22:05:23 <SpeedEvil> I'd like a proportional stick.
Mar 28 22:05:40 <_ASK> i would like mind reading but a keyboard is as close as we get
Mar 28 22:05:51 <Elrond> No brainlink? ;o)
Mar 28 22:06:22 <_ASK> i really wonder why everybody thinks it has too much buttons
Mar 28 22:06:40 <_ASK> it doesn't have more than any phone with a full keyboard
Mar 28 22:07:06 <Stephmw> Elrond: well... you could use it as a blunt instrument
Mar 28 22:07:42 <Elrond> Because phones-with-full-keyboard is for wanna-be-business-punches
Mar 28 22:07:57 <Stephmw> paunches!
Mar 28 22:08:33 * rwhitby wants a neo with full keyboard, after being spoilt with a Treo650 with offline imap, irc, ssh, etc.
Mar 28 22:08:50 <hadara> actually I think brainlink might be doable, openeeg project has been working on smaller designs latelly :-)
Mar 28 22:08:54 <Elrond> s/punche/clown/
Mar 28 22:08:54 <apt> Elrond meant: Because phones-with-full-keyboard is for wanna-be-business-clowns
Mar 28 22:09:06 <guaqua> i'd like to have that hexinput
Mar 28 22:09:13 <guaqua> and see how it really works
Mar 28 22:09:28 <guaqua> is there a SoC application for it?
Mar 28 22:09:55 <drath> oh please, what kind of geeks are you... as if three buttons wouldn't already be one too much
Mar 28 22:10:08 <drath> s/much/many/
Mar 28 22:10:08 <apt> drath meant: oh please, what kind of geeks are you... as if three buttons wouldn't already be one too many
Mar 28 22:10:27 <Elrond> *G*
Mar 28 22:10:42 <Elrond> unix mice are meant to have three buttons. So.
Mar 28 22:10:50 <guaqua> drath: morse code, one button
Mar 28 22:11:01 <drath> heh, i said geek, not dead
Mar 28 22:11:23 <_ASK> well, mortals prefeer real keyboards i think
Mar 28 22:11:35 <guaqua> palm graffiti is nice too
Mar 28 22:11:43 <drath> yeah, i'd love to have a 26+ button handy
Mar 28 22:11:45 <_ASK> but palms had a dedicated area
Mar 28 22:12:02 <high-rez> yeah tripple tapping sucks.  Real kb's - like on the blackjack, treo's are the ultimate.
Mar 28 22:12:02 <_ASK> the problem is doing everything on the screen
Mar 28 22:12:05 <guaqua> _ASK: i don't see a problem with it
Mar 28 22:12:16 <high-rez> We sell far more of those devices than devices that do handwriting recognition.
Mar 28 22:12:54 <_ASK> yeah, that's what i say, keyboards exist for a reason
Mar 28 22:13:30 <guaqua> high-rez: argumenting the superiority of an input methods with the sales figures is not something i call scientific
Mar 28 22:13:36 <guaqua> but i guess it goes if all goes
Mar 28 22:14:15 <high-rez> quaga: Certainly, when picking a method of input on a device that is highly driven by this, should be done by looking at what people actually buy.
Mar 28 22:14:40 <SpeedEvil> IMO, the right solution is prolly 3 devices.
Mar 28 22:14:47 <_ASK> i installed insane amounts of software on my treo and i find the keyboard invaluable; i bet the problem is that most people do very little with their phones, no more than one or two SMS a day or so
Mar 28 22:14:56 <SpeedEvil> screen + stick, and not much more.
Mar 28 22:15:05 <SpeedEvil> screen+conventional hardware buttons
Mar 28 22:15:07 <rwhitby> _ASK: that's the key - how much real software you use on the phone.
Mar 28 22:15:15 <SpeedEvil> screen + qwerty
Mar 28 22:15:27 <SpeedEvil> for different people.
Mar 28 22:15:28 <rwhitby> (i.e. stuff with significant text entry like emails or IRC)
Mar 28 22:15:49 <high-rez> If the intention is to sell a device to carriers, (i'm not sure if it is), the device *must* be very usable for data services - they drive all revenue gain for carriers.
Mar 28 22:16:04 <rwhitby> but this is a religious argument anyway.
Mar 28 22:16:23 <SpeedEvil> Ideally, come september, you'll be able to buy a subsidised neo.
Mar 28 22:16:26 <_ASK> yeah, just tastes, i just say, don't left people who likes keyboards out
Mar 28 22:16:56 <high-rez> rwhitby: Not really, comparing two devices for sale side by side, all things the same, the device with the keyboard usually outsells.  Devices with lots of features, big screens etc, are usually used by the user who does more than just talk on his device.
Mar 28 22:17:12 <SpeedEvil> For example, I can't actually buy a decent data plan without getting a moderately expensive mobile.
Mar 28 22:17:52 <high-rez> Speed: You can buy unlimited data plans irrespective of a device.  They're just addon to the service agreement.
Mar 28 22:18:16 <_ASK> depends on where you live, but generally true
Mar 28 22:18:26 <dho> it's b.s.
Mar 28 22:18:28 <SpeedEvil> Not really.
Mar 28 22:18:38 <dho> cingular charges you hella extra for the same damn data plan
Mar 28 22:18:40 <high-rez> Speed: Are you in the US?
Mar 28 22:18:46 <_ASK> i can purchase a data connection here; it's optional
Mar 28 22:18:51 <SpeedEvil> The cheapest way for me to get an unlimited data plan is to get an 18 month contract for 22 pounds/month.
Mar 28 22:18:51 <rwhitby> high-rez: yeah, but people with strong views on what they personally want don't care about sales facts.  from the hardware manufacturers point of view it is not religious, but from the individual consumers point of view it is.  and all IRC discussions are usually just individual consumers arguing with each other, rather than people being able to take a manufacturer's viewpoint
Mar 28 22:18:57 <dho> (depending on whether you have a pdaphone or not)
Mar 28 22:19:00 <SpeedEvil> With virgin mobile.
Mar 28 22:19:12 <SpeedEvil> This comes with a MDA for 9.99.
Mar 28 22:19:27 <CoreDump|home> does anyone know a good / cheap data-plan for germany? :\
Mar 28 22:19:29 <high-rez> dho: You can add the pda-connect plan to your service plan....
Mar 28 22:19:32 <SpeedEvil> All other data services pretty much are 30 quid a month add-on.
Mar 28 22:19:40 <_ASK> rwhitby: develop your idea
Mar 28 22:19:46 <dho> high-rez: It's _so_ much more expensive than MEdia net
Mar 28 22:19:49 <guaqua> argumenting the superiority of a subsidised phone with the fact that your current carrier makes you pay extra for the stuff...err
Mar 28 22:20:03 <SpeedEvil> This is 8 quid cheaper per month, and comes with a 170 quid phone. which is silly.
Mar 28 22:20:08 <dho> (and MEdia net works fine for them. I know. I had it before they realized I had a PDA phone)
Mar 28 22:20:29 <high-rez> dho: MediaNet is pay-per-kilobyte.  If you actually use your device, specially where hsdpa/umts is available, the $60/mo is well worth it for pda-connect.  :)
Mar 28 22:21:19 <_ASK> my point is: you have not really a phone, but a whole computer already: 640x480 screen, 128MB of RAM, 266 MHz processor
Mar 28 22:21:30 <dho> I don't live anywhere nead where HSDPA or UMTS is available
Mar 28 22:21:38 <_ASK> without a keyboard it will be difficult o use to browse Internet for example
Mar 28 22:21:44 <high-rez> dho: Where at? It might be there soon.  ;)
Mar 28 22:21:46 <dho> high-rez: and there's a MEdiaNet unlimited package
Mar 28 22:21:47 <guaqua> wrong, _ASK 
Mar 28 22:21:52 <dho> Millerton, NY :P
Mar 28 22:22:26 <_ASK> each time you find a text box a virtual keyboard shows up and allows you to see nothing below
Mar 28 22:22:51 <guaqua> you are only thinking of the current, bad ways of doing it
Mar 28 22:23:07 <guaqua> do i hear a floating transparent keyboard?
Mar 28 22:23:20 <_ASK> but alpha blending is worse
Mar 28 22:23:22 <dho> bluetooth keyboard ftw
Mar 28 22:23:26 <high-rez> dho: not sure about that area, but the rollout of wcdma is happening very fast.
Mar 28 22:23:30 <_ASK> because you often can either see what's below or what's up
Mar 28 22:23:32 <_ASK> it's a mess
Mar 28 22:23:58 <dho> high-rez: *shrugs* I have 30Mbit/5Mbit cable at home and I'm usually either there or the office when I need a connection
Mar 28 22:24:05 <dho> Otherwise I usually just don't wanna be bothered :)
Mar 28 22:24:27 <high-rez> dho: It's nice.  I'm a wireless data addict, but then I don't pay for it ;)
Mar 28 22:24:40 <dho> high-rez: lucky.
Mar 28 22:24:41 <_ASK> to have good contrast you must make it opaque, and we return to my point
Mar 28 22:24:43 <Elrond> dho - :-)))
Mar 28 22:25:16 <dho> I'll be happy when I get Plan 9 running on the 1973.
Mar 28 22:25:56 * dho hopes his SoC student will do a good job
Mar 28 22:26:00 <Elrond> dho - I never looked at plan9. Is it worth looking at it?
Mar 28 22:26:08 <high-rez> dho: And a little inferno? :)
Mar 28 22:26:18 <dho> Elrond: In my opinion, definitely
Mar 28 22:26:25 <dho> high-rez: That would work by default
Mar 28 22:26:51 <djsuszi> dho where are you from ?
Mar 28 22:26:51 <aloril> djsuszi: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Mar 28 22:26:51 <dho> high-rez: You could (cross)compile it anyway, but I'm not going to do a native port
Mar 28 22:26:59 <djsuszi> nice link at home :)
Mar 28 22:27:05 <dho> djsuszi: Millerton, NY
Mar 28 22:27:09 <dho> middle of nowhere
Mar 28 22:27:23 <dho> but luckily, we have cablevision and they aren't stingy on bandwidth
Mar 28 22:27:53 <LarstiQ> dho: ah, I thought you looked familiar :)
Mar 28 22:28:00 * LarstiQ missed the _plan9
Mar 28 22:28:12 <_ASK> iPhone, for example, has a virtual keyboard, but screen is 3.5"
Mar 28 22:28:13 <Elrond> dho - Anything in particular?
Mar 28 22:28:25 <dho> LarstiQ: hah
Mar 28 22:28:39 <dho> LarstiQ: don't be fooled, in real life, I hack FreeBSD for a living
Mar 28 22:28:48 <Stephmw> _ASK: meh, I'm utterly unconvinced by that virtual keyboard
Mar 28 22:29:12 <Stephmw> _ASK: any dedicated texter knows you use both thumbs ;)
Mar 28 22:29:28 <dho> Elrond: It certainly takes an interesting approach to networking (among other things). It's a good development environment and it's a great development platform too
Mar 28 22:29:31 <_ASK> exactly
Mar 28 22:29:43 <_ASK> and needs tactical feedback
Mar 28 22:29:54 <Elrond> dho - Ahh. :)
Mar 28 22:29:58 <benJIman> Do you mean tactile?
Mar 28 22:30:03 <_ASK> tactile, yes
Mar 28 22:30:06 <guaqua> you are making a lot of assumptions
Mar 28 22:30:21 <Elrond> Other thing: Does anyone know, if the Neo-v1 has all the brandings needed to legally use in Germany?
Mar 28 22:30:45 <CoreDump|home> there is no branding on neo. That's the entire point....
Mar 28 22:30:59 <_ASK> nah
Mar 28 22:31:04 <_ASK> if they give you trouble
Mar 28 22:31:10 <_ASK> just call an university
Mar 28 22:31:12 <Elrond> s/branding/certs/
Mar 28 22:31:12 <apt> Elrond meant: Other thing: Does anyone know, if the Neo-v1 has all the certss needed to legally use in Germany?
Mar 28 22:31:25 <_ASK> and ask them to back you up saying it's a project.
Mar 28 22:31:28 <CoreDump|home> Elrond: ah, sorry. I misunderstood =)
Mar 28 22:31:29 <guaqua> CoreDump|home: some people would like to see branded, subsided neo
Mar 28 22:31:51 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - I probably used to wrong term anyway. Couldn't think of certs in the first place.
Mar 28 22:32:10 <TRIsoft> The Phase1 models actually don't have CE/FCC certs
Mar 28 22:32:13 <_ASK> just mention the words "linux" and "phone" to any geek and you'll have an army supporting you =)
Mar 28 22:32:14 <CoreDump|home> guaqua: well, to each his own I guess. Neo could probably be locked down tight if need be (ie: unflashable w/o debugoard)
Mar 28 22:32:30 <Stephmw> _ASK: or just drown in the drool
Mar 28 22:32:57 * CoreDump|home welcomes our "german-law" expert TRIsoft 
Mar 28 22:33:08 <TRIsoft> CoreDump|home LOL
Mar 28 22:33:30 <guaqua> i've only seen bad examples of branding and subsidization
Mar 28 22:33:34 <CoreDump|home> TRIsoft: well, if anyone here knows what can be sold and used in .de it would be you guys ;)
Mar 28 22:33:40 <Elrond> TRIsoft - So for certs I have to wait until September?
Mar 28 22:34:00 <TRIsoft> The first models with direct delivery don't need certs.
Mar 28 22:34:20 * CoreDump|home pads his neo "fear not"
Mar 28 22:34:20 <TRIsoft> And FIC is working on it. But testing needs time and the hardware is too fresh...
Mar 28 22:34:37 <TRIsoft> We're also working on this issue
Mar 28 22:35:25 <LarstiQ> TRIsoft: if the first models don't need it, what exactly are the certs for?
Mar 28 22:35:46 <LarstiQ> consumer safety?
Mar 28 22:35:47 <Elrond> Any chance for the v04 getting the certs, or is the whole testing/certification postponed until the final mass-market model is ready?
Mar 28 22:35:55 <TRIsoft> If you (as a company) sell a device, it needs to have CE /FCC certification and testing.
Mar 28 22:36:15 <LarstiQ> TRIsoft: but why?
Mar 28 22:36:16 <TRIsoft> If you personally import something, you don't have to care about it as long as it doesn't crash networks ;-)
Mar 28 22:36:23 <_ASK> yeah, or a SWAT team will be asking for your address.
Mar 28 22:36:31 <LarstiQ> right, that's what I'm asking
Mar 28 22:36:52 <TRIsoft> Pretty simple stuff. EU = EC  US = FCC
Mar 28 22:36:58 <LarstiQ> _ASK: the houses here look all the same ;)
Mar 28 22:37:11 <TRIsoft> And CE / FCC testing is pretty much the same.
Mar 28 22:37:23 <TRIsoft> Just a bunch of regulations a device has to match.
Mar 28 22:38:05 <_ASK> yeah, that's why I insist to people here that a phone is not the same as a desktop; they think too abstractly, but real people needs ergonomics and such
Mar 28 22:38:11 <LarstiQ> TRIsoft: is there an easy list of what regulations a device has to match?
Mar 28 22:38:17 <TRIsoft> In most times just a lot of money for the testing lab and maybe some copper foil to put inside ;-)
Mar 28 22:38:31 <TRIsoft> Sure. Let me have a look. 1 sec.
Mar 28 22:39:08 <TRIsoft> Go to http://www.trisoft.de/en_c3200howto.htm and d/l the "startupguide"
Mar 28 22:39:48 <TRIsoft> Page 38 is the "Declaration of conformity" with the list of all regulations and tests.
Mar 28 22:40:00 <_ASK> the phone must be somewhat hermetic because if water reaches the battery and shorts the thing out, it could explode
Mar 28 22:40:11 <SpeedEvil> Not really.
Mar 28 22:40:20 <SpeedEvil> the battery is sealed.
Mar 28 22:40:25 <SpeedEvil> somewhat.
Mar 28 22:40:27 <_ASK> have you ever shorted out a battery?
Mar 28 22:40:31 <LarstiQ> hermetic makes me think of magic, not water.
Mar 28 22:40:32 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
Mar 28 22:40:33 <CoreDump|home> I have
Mar 28 22:40:36 <mwester> Water doesn't conduct particularly well, if it's clean.
Mar 28 22:40:42 <SpeedEvil> water doesn't conduct very well.
Mar 28 22:40:45 <CoreDump|home> only shitty batteries "explode"
Mar 28 22:41:05 <CoreDump|home> most get quite warm tho...
Mar 28 22:41:13 <mwester> rainwater and mud puddles are not short-circuit-causing, or automobiles the world over would be blazing furiously.
Mar 28 22:41:13 <_ASK> all batteries explode, it's a natural consequence of chemical reactions going too fast
Mar 28 22:41:26 <SpeedEvil> Bullshit.
Mar 28 22:41:32 <CoreDump|home> BS indeed ;)
Mar 28 22:41:41 <mwester> Internal impedance is a factor :)
Mar 28 22:42:11 <_ASK> it's not a chemical explosion, it's mechanical; lots of vapor until it makes boom.
Mar 28 22:42:24 <LarstiQ> TRIsoft: thanks, radiation mostly?
Mar 28 22:42:25 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Any certs info on the GTA01Bv04?
Mar 28 22:42:38 <SpeedEvil> And if the cell does not release energy fast enough to make vapour, it won't explode.
Mar 28 22:42:39 <Elrond> Hi mickeyl!
Mar 28 22:43:02 <_ASK> well, manufaturers must try to monomize such risks
Mar 28 22:43:04 <TRIsoft> Radiation is the worst. But also burst and surge tests. A device must work even with some kilovolt pulse on the AC adapter and stuff.
Mar 28 22:43:07 <Stephmw> TRIsoft: I'd completely forgotten about your company ;) thanks for the link
Mar 28 22:43:11 <mickeyl> cheers guys
Mar 28 22:43:18 <TRIsoft> waves to mickeyl
Mar 28 22:43:20 <mickeyl> anyone know offhand where ldconfig is in debian sarge?
Mar 28 22:43:27 <_ASK> http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/laptops/dell-laptop-explodes-in-flames-182257.php
Mar 28 22:43:57 <CoreDump|home> _ASK: as I said..shitty (faulty) batteries
Mar 28 22:44:09 <CoreDump|home> mickeyl: libc6: /sbin/ldconfig
Mar 28 22:44:20 <SpeedEvil> Because one laptop explodes does not mean that all laptops explode, any more than you will certainly survive if I throw you naked out of a plane at 30000 feet.
Mar 28 22:44:22 <mickeyl> CoreDump|home: could you check which package this belongs to?
Mar 28 22:44:31 <CoreDump|home> mickeyl: yeah, "libc6" ;)
Mar 28 22:44:36 <mickeyl> urghs
Mar 28 22:44:38 <mickeyl> odd
Mar 28 22:44:47 <mickeyl> hmm
Mar 28 22:45:01 <_ASK> all chemical batteries explode given the right circumstances, those simply explode spntaneously
Mar 28 22:45:21 <CoreDump|home> mickeyl: http://rafb.net/p/VhZPur97.html
Mar 28 22:45:32 <SpeedEvil> Most chemical batteries simply won't explode starting from room temperature.
Mar 28 22:45:41 <CoreDump|home> _ASK: please....
Mar 28 22:45:48 <SpeedEvil> They do not have the energy to heat themselves to failure.
Mar 28 22:45:48 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: since when has rational thought trumped FUD?
Mar 28 22:45:57 <mickeyl> CoreDump|home: ah excellent. it's just not in the user's path. thanks
Mar 28 22:46:05 <SpeedEvil> Many - for example, lithium coin cells, or zinc-air won't even get warm.
Mar 28 22:46:07 <CoreDump|home> np =)
Mar 28 22:46:10 <_ASK> ok, we aren't going to reach an agreement, let's leave it as it is
Mar 28 22:46:10 <SpeedEvil> if shorted
Mar 28 22:46:22 <Stephmw> mickeyl: yeah, I think it's expected to only be used by root
Mar 28 22:46:38 <mickeyl> i always abuse it to recreate the links
Mar 28 22:46:38 <_ASK> but I've read some documents of tests done by agencies and you'll be surprised to know how many shot can happen
Mar 28 22:46:41 <mickeyl> sudo ldconfig -nv .
Mar 28 22:46:43 <mickeyl> very helpful
Mar 28 22:46:49 <_ASK> * shit
Mar 28 22:46:50 <mickeyl> when you have to deal with binary only .so's
Mar 28 22:47:01 <CoreDump|home> *cough*nvidia
Mar 28 22:47:12 * Stephmw grins
Mar 28 22:48:19 <mickeyl> heh
Mar 28 22:48:21 <mickeyl> even worse
Mar 28 22:48:31 <mickeyl> binary only .so's given by client
Mar 28 22:48:41 <mickeyl> and i need to write software on top
Mar 28 22:48:50 <CoreDump|home> ouch
Mar 28 22:48:54 <mickeyl> ya
Mar 28 22:48:57 * mwester know's some of that: "Here, we can't make these work, you do it!"
Mar 28 22:49:15 <Elrond> mickeyl - gpsd? ;-)
Mar 28 22:49:24 <CoreDump|home> hmm =)
Mar 28 22:49:26 <mickeyl> Elrond: no, non OM related :/
Mar 28 22:49:35 <Elrond> Oh, okay. :-/
Mar 28 22:50:41 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Do you know any specifics -- which you may tell us -- about the neo CE/FCC certification?
Mar 28 22:50:53 <Elrond> ... i.e. if/when it'll happen.
Mar 28 22:50:54 <roh> mickeyl are the symbols striped?
Mar 28 22:50:54 * CoreDump|home would like to play w/ GPS as well 
Mar 28 22:51:10 <_ASK> but it's AGPS, isn't it?
Mar 28 22:51:28 <CoreDump|home> _ASK: the A in AGPS doesn't matter ;)
Mar 28 22:51:29 <TRIsoft> Elrond: Sorry, no. Afaik, they're in the testing process actually.
Mar 28 22:51:32 <SpeedEvil> AGPS=GPS
Mar 28 22:51:36 <Elrond> _ASK - It's gps. ignore the A, please.
Mar 28 22:51:37 <SpeedEvil> the A is mostly hype
Mar 28 22:51:38 <mickeyl> nomickey@debian:~/projekte/honda-research/intens/precompiled/lib$ file libAny.so
Mar 28 22:51:38 <mickeyl> libAny.so: ELF 32-bit LSB shared object, Intel 80386, version 1 (SYSV), not stripped
Mar 28 22:51:47 <mickeyl> thankfully not
Mar 28 22:51:48 <Stephmw> mickeyl: are you contracting freely then?
Mar 28 22:51:56 <mickeyl> Stephmw: yeah
Mar 28 22:51:57 <roh> mickeyl hey.. thats a start
Mar 28 22:52:00 <TRIsoft> Elrond: We're also curious about the results.
Mar 28 22:52:09 <CoreDump|home> hehe
Mar 28 22:52:10 <SpeedEvil> A is only important if you can't get a view of the sky for 12 minutes easily.
Mar 28 22:52:12 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Do those tests take forever, or do we have some chances? :)
Mar 28 22:52:14 <roh> mickeyl so you have idapro at hand?
Mar 28 22:52:15 <mickeyl> the thing is... i signed that contract last year when I thought OM project was over by now
Mar 28 22:52:21 <mickeyl> :)
Mar 28 22:52:22 <_ASK> i was on the idea that AGPS lacked hardware
Mar 28 22:52:32 <_ASK> like an AC97 sound card
Mar 28 22:52:33 <SpeedEvil> look at [[agps]] on the wiki
Mar 28 22:52:35 <SpeedEvil> for the detail
Mar 28 22:52:42 <TRIsoft> Elrond: Our lab normally needs about a week for a device. Some tests run over 24 hours each.
Mar 28 22:52:49 <CoreDump|home> _ASK: I believe there is a very informative entry about AGPS in the wiki somewhere
Mar 28 22:53:00 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS
Mar 28 22:53:09 <mickeyl> roh: well, it's not that bad. i just have some problems with running this libs (which have been compiled against glibc 2.3.x) on glibc 2.4 systems
Mar 28 22:53:10 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Okay, so less than a month. :-))
Mar 28 22:53:15 <mickeyl> crashes in realloc
Mar 28 22:53:21 <mickeyl> and it doesn't occur in glibc 2.3.x
Mar 28 22:53:30 * mickeyl definitely needs to downgrade his OS
Mar 28 22:53:45 * CoreDump|home hands mickeyl his woody install disks
Mar 28 22:53:45 <TRIsoft> Elrond: We're in the same boat. We also want the Neo yesterday ;-)
Mar 28 22:53:54 <mickeyl> i thought glibc was supposed to be compatible across minor versions
Mar 28 22:54:03 <mickeyl> apparantly there are subtle issues
Mar 28 22:54:05 <mickeyl> *sigh*
Mar 28 22:54:17 <mickeyl> CoreDump|home: thanks. installing Sarge in a VMware just now
Mar 28 22:54:28 <mickeyl> being a non-debian user it's kind of a cultural shock
Mar 28 22:54:31 <mickeyl> heh
Mar 28 22:54:33 <CoreDump|home> TRIsoft: you are going to distribute the P1 devices then? =)
Mar 28 22:54:58 <CoreDump|home> mickeyl: Debian is The True Linux ;) /me dons fire-proof suit
Mar 28 22:55:03 <TRIsoft> CoreDump|home: Stupid, but true answer: We don't know now. Depends on FIC.
Mar 28 22:55:30 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Why do you want it yesterday?
Mar 28 22:55:48 <TRIsoft> Elrond: Because i would have played a lot with it today :D
Mar 28 22:56:03 <CoreDump|home> Elrond: which self-respecting geek _wouldn't_ want to play w/ a neo? heh
Mar 28 22:56:17 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: just caught up with your gps error distribution, thanks for that gif
Mar 28 22:56:22 <_ASK> wikipedia lied me about AGPS.
Mar 28 22:56:24 <TobiX> CoreDump|home: I also like Debian, but I would never install it for my mother, father or sister...
Mar 28 22:56:35 * mwester flames CoreDump|home as every geek knows that Fedora is where it's at...
Mar 28 22:56:57 <Elrond> TRIsoft, CoreDump|home - :-))
Mar 28 22:56:59 <SpeedEvil> Stephmw: that is with a pretty old GPS - however, it is a multi-channel one, so it should be broadly similar.
Mar 28 22:57:03 <CoreDump|home> TobiX: On that we can agree heh
Mar 28 22:57:27 * TobiX flames mwester for showing there are still people who think RPM-based distros are "usable" *gd&r*
Mar 28 22:57:29 * Shoragan has just updated the bitbake packages for debian to 1.8.0
Mar 28 22:57:34 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: I wonder how much some number crunching on the values would help
Mar 28 22:57:44 <SpeedEvil> Stephmw: Essentially none.
Mar 28 22:58:02 <SpeedEvil> Stephmw: Unless you are doing the DGPS thing, the raw satellite numbers coming to you are wrong.
Mar 28 22:58:14 <Shoragan> BB_NUMBER_THREADS is nice :)
Mar 28 22:58:30 <SpeedEvil> Averaging for 24 hours significantly helps, but...
Mar 28 22:58:59 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware:AGPS#Q:_What_is_DGPS.2C_can_DGPS_and_A-GPS_work_together.3F
Mar 28 22:59:10 <Elrond> Shoragan - Is it in main debian, or just _for_ Debian?
Mar 28 22:59:12 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: hmmm.. I was thinking of impulse analysis or other polynomial derivatives
Mar 28 22:59:18 <Shoragan> for debian
Mar 28 22:59:31 <Shoragan> it will be in debian after the etch release
Mar 28 22:59:51 <Elrond> Shoragan - It's already in experimental or unstable? :)
Mar 28 22:59:58 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: I'll have a play when I get a P1.5 / P2
Mar 28 23:00:01 <SpeedEvil> Basically - as I understand it - no - as the fundamental per-satellite error is a short-term fixed-ish error.
Mar 28 23:00:01 <Shoragan> Elrond: neither
Mar 28 23:00:24 <SpeedEvil> Which unless you can derive it from other sources, you can't correct for.
Mar 28 23:00:33 <Elrond> Shoragan - Just get it into unstable. It's a new package, it wont ever move to etch anyway. :)
Mar 28 23:00:54 <Shoragan> yes, but the ftp-masters are busy anyway ;)
Mar 28 23:01:09 <Elrond> Ahh. :-)
Mar 28 23:01:25 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: about the 24hrs comment... I can see that'd be the exception, do you think it'd converge over a week?
Mar 28 23:01:38 <SpeedEvil> It doesn't really converge as such.
Mar 28 23:01:50 <SpeedEvil> The error just gets smaller.
Mar 28 23:01:58 <SpeedEvil> And that only gives you one point.
Mar 28 23:02:05 <_ASK> hahaha "as long as it's closed source, you can point at the evil hackers, and say that you never did it."
Mar 28 23:02:53 <SpeedEvil> DGPS can in principle give positions under a meter or so anywhere you've got an internet connection.
Mar 28 23:02:54 <Elrond> TRIsoft - CE is all, that is needed to legally sell/use the neo in .de?
Mar 28 23:03:29 <TRIsoft> Elrond: That's the most critical thing. But you also need RoHS conformity, WEEE, green dot, battery recycling....
Mar 28 23:04:22 <Elrond> TRIsoft - So another month for the rest, is your company going to do some of that stuff?
Mar 28 23:05:11 <TRIsoft> Elrond: We're just waiting for the "GO" from FIC. We could have finished all that stuff...
Mar 28 23:05:35 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Ahh, cool. :-))
Mar 28 23:05:48 <_ASK> what company is that?
Mar 28 23:05:57 <Elrond> _ASK - www.trisoft.de ;)
Mar 28 23:06:34 <LarstiQ> Elrond: sell I hope, CE for use seems a bit heavy
Mar 28 23:06:39 <_ASK> ah, sie kommen aus Deutschland.
Mar 28 23:06:59 <TRIsoft> _ASK genau ;-)
Mar 28 23:07:55 <Elrond> Ja :)
Mar 28 23:08:40 <LarstiQ> TRIsoft: you're not carrying miniSD?
Mar 28 23:09:01 <TRIsoft> LarstiQ: I think miniSD will be added soon ;-)
Mar 28 23:09:50 <LarstiQ> TRIsoft: good :)
Mar 28 23:10:28 <TRIsoft> But, what is a miniSD good for, if i don't have a Neo to play with :-(
Mar 28 23:10:45 * LarstiQ is just thinking ahead ;)
Mar 28 23:11:51 <Elrond> Wait? I thought, the neo has microsd? Or is that the same as minisd?
Mar 28 23:11:58 <SpeedEvil> no
Mar 28 23:12:03 <SpeedEvil> micro is smaller
Mar 28 23:12:40 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Will your shop include the neo?
Mar 28 23:12:59 <TRIsoft> Elrond: I hope so.
Mar 28 23:13:10 <Elrond> Cool. :-)
Mar 28 23:14:24 <_ASK> you should try to convince google to port googlemaps to openmoko
Mar 28 23:14:53 <_ASK> if google accepts, that's enough reason for other companies to take it seriously =)
Mar 28 23:15:03 <LarstiQ> Google Earth?
Mar 28 23:15:22 <_ASK> yeah, it's called googlemaps in mobile devices i think
Mar 28 23:15:41 <SpeedEvil> that sucks though in many places as it requires connectivity.
Mar 28 23:16:00 <_ASK> not because you like the program
Mar 28 23:16:07 <_ASK> it's a political strategy
Mar 28 23:16:07 <LarstiQ> Elrond: woops, the other small sd format with an m ;)
Mar 28 23:16:12 <TobiX> "Google Maps" is the wep app, "Google Earth" the 3D/GL desktop application...
Mar 28 23:16:24 <TobiX> They share a lot of map data these days...
Mar 28 23:16:32 <_ASK> google ports an application to openmoko = google thinks openmoko is important
Mar 28 23:16:37 <LarstiQ> sure, but maps.google.com should not be a problem :)
Mar 28 23:16:38 <_ASK> and google is like god this days.
Mar 28 23:16:44 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hardware:AGPS]]
Mar 28 23:16:49 <LarstiQ> _ASK: more and more a fallen one
Mar 28 23:17:25 <TobiX> LarstiQ: You just need a current browser with JavaScript, Minimo should work... But I don't know, how well that works on a "slow" CPU...
Mar 28 23:18:27 <TobiX> A special client application would be cooler... But Google has already asked open source apps that used the Google Earth map download to stop using that service...
Mar 28 23:21:50 <_ASK> again, it's a political strategy. right now, there isn't much people who knows about openmoko, much less those in the industry who belive on it
Mar 28 23:22:08 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Does the "Regulierungsbehoerde" also need to be asked about the neo?
Mar 28 23:22:59 <TRIsoft> Elrond: No. If you successfully survived the CE conformity, there's no further testing or OK required.
Mar 28 23:23:20 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Ahh, good. :-))
Mar 28 23:23:54 * Elrond thinks he knows where to buy his neo ;)
Mar 28 23:24:13 <TRIsoft> :D
Mar 28 23:24:44 <Elrond> unless you take much more than $350 + duty + VAT ;)
Mar 28 23:25:24 <TRIsoft> Elrond: Give us some time... it actually doesn't depend on us.
Mar 28 23:25:30 <_ASK> distributors can ask for discounts at FIC, I think
Mar 28 23:26:05 <Elrond> _ASK - I'd assume that.
Mar 28 23:27:06 <Elrond> TRIsoft - I want to wait a bit anyway to see, if the P1 thingies work out in the real world. I don't want to pay that much money for something that has a battery life of say a few hours. ;o)
Mar 28 23:28:06 <TRIsoft> We'll keep you guys updated. Promised.
Mar 28 23:28:24 <LarstiQ> Elrond: that's about a few hours longer than my ipod ;)
Mar 28 23:28:49 <peepsalot> counter
Mar 28 23:28:50 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 12:31:09 (8.522 +-7.0 days) (662)
Mar 28 23:29:04 * peepsalot hyperventilates
Mar 28 23:29:35 <mickeyl> heh
Mar 28 23:29:53 <mickeyl> ~praise QMutexLocker
Mar 28 23:30:04 <apt> All hail QMutexLocker!
Mar 28 23:34:42 <thomasg_gpm> does somebody know if help is needed for translating the openmoko apps/UI?
Mar 28 23:37:17 * balrog-kun wonders what "synthesizing initial hotplug events..." is supposed to mean :D
Mar 28 23:39:10 <balrog-kun> wow, a lot has changed since P0
Mar 28 23:39:24 * balrog-kun just flashed new u-boot and rootfs
Mar 28 23:43:15 <Elrond> LarstiQ - I wont buy an ipod, so what? ;o)
Mar 28 23:43:22 <thomasg_gpm> cowon
Mar 28 23:43:44 <balrog-kun> how do you scroll in the calls history in the dialer? :P
Mar 28 23:43:58 <balrog-kun> there are some call that i have never made :p
Mar 28 23:44:46 <Elrond> *G*
Mar 28 23:45:09 <Elrond> balrog-kun - The neo did them for you. ;o)
Mar 28 23:45:19 <Elrond> Using the integrated voice synthesizer ;)
Mar 28 23:45:33 <balrog-kun> oh right :p
Mar 28 23:45:50 <balrog-kun> actually, i was wondering if there are any easter eggs planned for OpenMoko
Mar 28 23:45:57 <balrog-kun> like maybe a flight simulator
Mar 28 23:46:00 <thomasg_gpm> oh, Elrond, I bet apple has a patent on leting the phone do calls for you automatically :)
Mar 28 23:46:40 <balrog-kun> who called "ken" and "steven" on my (virtual) phone?
Mar 28 23:47:45 <Elrond> thomasg_gpm - ;-)
Mar 28 23:47:57 <balrog-kun> oh the wheel works
Mar 28 23:48:08 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Is barbie also in the list? ;o)
Mar 28 23:48:23 <balrog-kun> just in the opposite direction to the expected
Mar 28 23:49:04 <balrog-kun> Elrond: nope, but there's "tony", "sally" and "chaowei" when i scroll down
Mar 28 23:49:37 <balrog-kun> actually my phone only called "sally",
Mar 28 23:49:41 <balrog-kun> the other calls are incoming
Mar 28 23:52:19 <Elrond> tihi. ;)
Mar 28 23:56:55 <TRIsoft> gtg, cu
Mar 28 23:59:50 <balrog-kun> the top menu bar of openmoko is lacking some thing compared to the matchbox menu bar
Mar 29 00:00:07 <balrog-kun> i think the P0 version used the generic matchbox menu bar
Mar 29 00:00:21 <spikebik1> counter
Mar 29 00:00:21 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 11:59:38 (8.500 +-7.0 days) (663)
Mar 29 00:00:41 <balrog-kun> obviously it didn't look as good as this one
Mar 29 00:05:26 <balrog-kun> heh, the web browser preferences let you choose whether you're running on a "Desktop computer", a "Television" or "Handheld"
Mar 29 00:05:46 <balrog-kun> that's about all of the preferences dialog
Mar 29 00:11:29 <mickeyl> g'night
Mar 29 00:18:59 <balrog-kun> does the Input Methods widget (keyboard icon) on the menu bar display ok on a real Neo, in todays snapshot?
Mar 29 00:22:12 <balrog-kun> http://rainbow.mimuw.edu.pl/~az258116/screen-qemu-neo-dialer.png
Mar 29 00:23:30 <balrog-kun> the white field is the input widget, it works
Mar 29 00:24:30 <CoreDump|home> balrog-kun: no, it's brr
Mar 29 00:24:40 <CoreDump|home> been that way for ages
Mar 29 00:24:57 <balrog-kun> CoreDump|home: i see
Mar 29 00:25:03 <_ASK> http://mikemex.t35.com/phone/telefono2.png
Mar 29 00:25:17 <balrog-kun> well, it looked ok on the matchbox menubar that they used earlier
Mar 29 00:26:51 <_ASK> 105 x 50 x 15 mm
Mar 29 00:27:37 <_ASK> key spacing (center to center): 10 mm
Mar 29 00:42:51 <init_alx> geez, been reading the wiki... now i can't wait for sept.
Mar 29 00:44:02 * SpeedEvil points to the back of the queue.
Mar 29 00:44:09 <SpeedEvil> :)
Mar 29 00:46:21 <mwester-laptop> hehe!
Mar 29 00:47:59 <init_alx> :D
Mar 29 00:48:12 * init_alx might end up getting the prototype
Mar 29 00:48:49 <SpeedEvil> It's not so much a prototype. More first generation hardware with unfinished software.
Mar 29 00:49:04 <SpeedEvil> As development continues, it should mature as a phone over the next months.
Mar 29 00:49:33 <_ASK> it's a prototype
Mar 29 00:49:38 <init_alx> well, i'm using "prototype" to mean the phase 1 device with the slower CPU and without the possible addition of wifi and/or the camera
Mar 29 00:49:41 <_ASK> no decent phone today lacks a camera
Mar 29 00:49:54 <init_alx> or whatever other hardware features they're awesome enough to give us
Mar 29 00:49:58 <SpeedEvil> Many people can't use phones with cameras.
Mar 29 00:50:07 <_ASK> can't?
Mar 29 00:50:19 <mwester-laptop> Yep
Mar 29 00:50:22 <SpeedEvil> They are prohibited from taking them to work.
Mar 29 00:51:02 <mwester-laptop> I carry an ancient Nokia in my car's glovebox for customers that won't let me take my Motorola RAZR inside.
Mar 29 00:51:03 <init_alx> SpeedEvil: so what we really need is a no-camera model
Mar 29 00:51:03 <_ASK> i have a reporter friend whose job depends on the camera of his phone
Mar 29 00:51:43 <_ASK> are those restrictions legal, anyway?
Mar 29 00:51:48 <SpeedEvil> Of course.
Mar 29 00:51:50 <_ASK> sounds like indaving your own privacy
Mar 29 00:51:51 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 00:51:58 <SpeedEvil> You don't have to take the money for the job.
Mar 29 00:52:11 <SpeedEvil> If you take the money, they get to say what you can do.
Mar 29 00:52:22 <init_alx> _ASK: it's just like banning CD players or refridgerators
Mar 29 00:52:28 <init_alx> *refrigerators, lol
Mar 29 00:53:00 <_ASK> so that's the reason why are out there phones without camera?
Mar 29 00:53:14 <_ASK> i think i saw a camera-less treo the other day
Mar 29 00:53:14 <SpeedEvil> A reason.
Mar 29 00:53:16 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 00:53:20 <init_alx> there's other reasons
Mar 29 00:53:24 <SpeedEvil> Also some people don't want cameras.
Mar 29 00:53:29 <init_alx> like, phone companies practically give away old hardware
Mar 29 00:53:43 <init_alx> so if you don't care, then you'll take the cheaper, older phone without a camera
Mar 29 00:53:53 * init_alx has a Motorola without a camera
Mar 29 00:53:58 <_ASK> but a treo with and without a camera, it's the same weight and size and such
Mar 29 00:54:08 * philippe has no real use for a phone camera either...
Mar 29 00:54:21 <init_alx> well
Mar 29 00:54:24 <philippe> The quality is so bad anyway it is unusable...
Mar 29 00:54:33 <init_alx> if your interest is taking pictures...you're probably better off with a digicam
Mar 29 00:54:41 <_ASK> certainly, but even that is better than nothing
Mar 29 00:54:41 * TobiX doesn't see a use fr a camera phone. You don't get decent lenses and zoom into phones anyway...
Mar 29 00:54:46 <init_alx> if you only use it every once in a while, you can *probably* get away without it
Mar 29 00:54:56 <init_alx> teenage girls drive the camera phone market.
Mar 29 00:54:59 <SpeedEvil> There are uses for bad photos.
Mar 29 00:55:08 <init_alx> still
Mar 29 00:55:13 <SpeedEvil> Apart from taking pictures of vomiting people.
Mar 29 00:55:19 <philippe> cameraphones only seem useful for drunken pictures and stupid youtube vids...
Mar 29 00:55:21 <init_alx> i could definitely see videoconferencing in openmoko being something awesome
Mar 29 00:55:40 <SpeedEvil> For example, 640*480 is fine for taking pictures of price labels in shops.
Mar 29 00:55:47 <init_alx> of course, anything that's not in the main hardware can probably be bluetooth'd anyway
Mar 29 00:56:00 <spikebik1> Like a GPS ;-)
Mar 29 00:56:01 <_ASK> well, i bought a digital camera like 3 years ago
Mar 29 00:56:05 <philippe> init_alx: videoconferencing will probably need wifi and a faster cpu
Mar 29 00:56:07 <_ASK> it's 2 MPx
Mar 29 00:56:08 <init_alx> SpeedEvil: GPS is built in ;)
Mar 29 00:56:09 <SpeedEvil> which is handy for just wandering around looking at prices of stuff you may not want to buy till later.
Mar 29 00:56:13 <init_alx> erm
Mar 29 00:56:16 <init_alx> spikebik1*
Mar 29 00:56:35 <_ASK> it would be awesome to be able to take pictures without carrying the camera AND the phone
Mar 29 00:56:41 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 00:57:08 <init_alx> what we shouldn't do is think along the lines of "i wouldn't use it, so it's not important", there's definitely people out there who would use a camera
Mar 29 00:57:17 <SpeedEvil> Oh - sure.
Mar 29 00:57:19 <init_alx> philippe: faster CPU than the 1+ one?
Mar 29 00:57:22 <_ASK> that's why geeks have so bad reputation
Mar 29 00:57:25 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 00:57:31 <_ASK> they think they know better than anyone else
Mar 29 00:57:46 <_ASK> and dare to decide for others what they want (or not)
Mar 29 00:57:54 <init_alx> see
Mar 29 00:57:59 <init_alx> that works in software
Mar 29 00:58:09 <init_alx> because if you don't implement a feature, someone else can
Mar 29 00:58:21 <spikebik1> btw, a treo without a phone being almost identical to a treo with a phone doesn't mean that phones are "free" just that treo didn't do a from the ground up design without a phone
Mar 29 00:58:21 <init_alx> but with hardware it kind of breaks down ;)
Mar 29 00:58:51 <_ASK> but neo1973 is almost identical in concept to a treo
Mar 29 00:58:54 <init_alx> spikebik1: we were talking about a treo without a camera
Mar 29 00:59:06 <_ASK> except for the lack of goodies like a keyboard and directional pad
Mar 29 00:59:07 <philippe> init_alx: depends on the resolution and will be in the 1+
Mar 29 00:59:12 <philippe> and memory bandwith...
Mar 29 00:59:13 <spikebik1> right, but it's the same design, just with the camera ommitted
Mar 29 00:59:32 <_ASK> a phone doesn't need a 2.8 VGA screen.
Mar 29 00:59:38 <init_alx> does anyone know what the discount on the 1+ will be for people who purchase the initial dev hardware?
Mar 29 00:59:51 <SpeedEvil> no
Mar 29 01:00:07 <SpeedEvil> _ASK: If you don't like - don't buy.
Mar 29 01:00:23 <SpeedEvil> This revision is pretty much set in stone - hardware is shipping in around a week
Mar 29 01:00:29 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 01:00:31 <init_alx> :)
Mar 29 01:00:38 * init_alx itches to buy
Mar 29 01:00:43 <_ASK> i don't comply just because so
Mar 29 01:00:44 <init_alx> but i should probably wait for the 1+
Mar 29 01:00:50 <_ASK> i know this release is mostly for developers
Mar 29 01:00:58 <spikebik1> I love my nokia 770
Mar 29 01:00:59 <_ASK> but i want the real thing to be full featured.
Mar 29 01:01:14 <SpeedEvil> _ASK: go and look on the wishlist pages on the wiki
Mar 29 01:01:25 <spikebik1> if the openmoko turns into a widget with similar functionality + phone I'll buy one... I'm hoping
Mar 29 01:01:26 <SpeedEvil> we all know most people want wifi and camear
Mar 29 01:01:41 <spikebik1> dunno about wifi
Mar 29 01:01:47 <spikebik1> I just hope flat rate 3G gets cheaper
Mar 29 01:01:53 <spikebik1> then I suspect most wouldn't care
Mar 29 01:02:01 <_ASK> and I want a decent keypad, and I speak for a *LOT* of people
Mar 29 01:02:10 <SpeedEvil> 3G radios are a bit more expensive.
Mar 29 01:02:26 <spikebik1> is wifi cheaper?
Mar 29 01:02:38 <SpeedEvil> _ASK: How many people do you speak for? Have you got their signatures?
Mar 29 01:02:38 <spikebik1> (once you consider the higher power, additional chips, etc.)
Mar 29 01:03:03 <SpeedEvil> Wifi may be cheaper, yes. 
Mar 29 01:03:10 <spikebik1> that works then
Mar 29 01:03:10 * rwhitby wants a keyboard, but realises that will be a different phone from Neo1973.
Mar 29 01:03:12 <init_alx> haha
Mar 29 01:03:14 <SpeedEvil> AIUI, 3G also needs license fees.
Mar 29 01:03:15 <init_alx> speaking of rates
Mar 29 01:03:22 <_ASK> 600K treos a year, with many other models and manufacturers adding each day. have you hear about blackberries?
Mar 29 01:03:29 <spikebik1> if you use a phone as a phone seems hard to justify more than edge
Mar 29 01:03:31 <init_alx> i wonder how much a month unlimited internet to my neo will cost
Mar 29 01:03:35 <init_alx> once i get it
Mar 29 01:03:46 * SpeedEvil has found the cheapest as 22 pounds a month, in the UK.
Mar 29 01:03:51 <init_alx> lol
Mar 29 01:03:56 <SpeedEvil> (18 month contract, virgin)
Mar 29 01:04:09 * init_alx will probably go t-mobile
Mar 29 01:04:18 <SpeedEvil> Or I may mean t-mobile.
Mar 29 01:04:22 <SpeedEvil> In fact I think I do.
Mar 29 01:04:31 <mjr> my 10 euro a month for 12 months contract covers UMTS as well, though only up to 128kbps speeds; more money for more speed
Mar 29 01:04:38 <spikebik1> t-mobile has a cheap plan, I'm not sure how limited it is, i.e. what ports are open
Mar 29 01:05:06 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 01:05:09 <SpeedEvil> Almost no providers give you access inbound to th enet.
Mar 29 01:05:10 <init_alx> that's what i'm wondering
Mar 29 01:05:20 <init_alx> well inbound is kind of lol for a phone
Mar 29 01:05:23 <SpeedEvil> as otherwise you get swamped with virus scanners/...
Mar 29 01:05:37 <init_alx> i wonder if it'd be possible to get an internet-only plan
Mar 29 01:05:39 <SpeedEvil> Just do the VPN thing.
Mar 29 01:05:42 <spikebik1> heh, I meant just open outbound
Mar 29 01:05:47 <init_alx> and use voip/skpye or something
Mar 29 01:06:00 <SpeedEvil> t-mobile say no skype/IM
Mar 29 01:06:04 <init_alx> :/
Mar 29 01:06:10 <init_alx> so what providers are there for the US
Mar 29 01:06:20 <init_alx> or can we use pretty much anyone that does GSM/GPRS?
Mar 29 01:06:23 <SpeedEvil> OTOH - 1G/mo fair use isn't unreasonable.
Mar 29 01:06:25 <spikebik1> tmobild and cingular mostly
Mar 29 01:06:57 <mjr> SpeedEvil, I wouldn't call it unreasonable, no
Mar 29 01:07:08 <init_alx> i would want unlimited just on principle
Mar 29 01:07:09 <init_alx> haha
Mar 29 01:07:56 <SpeedEvil> 1G/mo is around 4K/s
Mar 29 01:07:58 <TobiX> O² here in germany has a WAP-flat for 5¤, so you can tunnel everything over HTTP ;)
Mar 29 01:08:00 <_ASK> they limit it because there is a lot of people who abuses
Mar 29 01:08:16 <_ASK> like connecting P2P software through the phone
Mar 29 01:09:53 <init_alx> lol
Mar 29 01:09:56 <init_alx> ew
Mar 29 01:10:23 <init_alx> SpeedEvil: i could easily see using 1 G/month viewing websites & sending picture
Mar 29 01:10:38 <SpeedEvil> True.
Mar 29 01:10:42 <init_alx> and i wonder if it'll be possible to route computer via bluetooth or USB through openmoko/GPRS
Mar 29 01:10:53 <init_alx> :D
Mar 29 01:10:56 <SpeedEvil> However, it would be minorly annoying, for me, rather than impossible to live with.
Mar 29 01:10:58 <init_alx> probably...that would rock
Mar 29 01:11:05 <SpeedEvil> It's enough to cope with IRC and usenet.
Mar 29 01:11:12 <init_alx> SpeedEvil: as this phone is about possibilities though... ;)
Mar 29 01:11:24 <rwhitby> init_alx: absolutely possible with bnep and usbnet
Mar 29 01:11:32 <init_alx> :D
Mar 29 01:11:33 <_ASK> just imagine the porno you can watch on the go...
Mar 29 01:11:42 <SpeedEvil> Possibilities - not offered by carriers in my country aren't possibilities for me though.
Mar 29 01:11:45 <rwhitby> I already ssh into the Neo via bluetooth from a Treo650.
Mar 29 01:11:54 <init_alx> SpeedEvil: :( that sucks
Mar 29 01:11:59 <_ASK> a female friend of mine told me the other day "and phones vibrate..."
Mar 29 01:12:09 <balrog-kun> do you have to always press the AUX button after powering up the Neo with current u-boot?
Mar 29 01:12:27 <init_alx> rwhitby: can it make/receive calls yet?
Mar 29 01:12:28 <SpeedEvil> _ASK: www.thetoy.co.uk all it needs is someone to write a driver.
Mar 29 01:12:30 <balrog-kun> i.e there's no automatic boot anymore after a timeout?
Mar 29 01:12:48 <SpeedEvil> init_alx: yes.
Mar 29 01:12:55 <SpeedEvil> The dialer now works.
Mar 29 01:13:13 <init_alx> SpeedEvil: :D
Mar 29 01:13:33 <_ASK> HAHAHAHA
Mar 29 01:15:50 <init_alx> _ASK: ?
Mar 29 01:15:55 <init_alx> oh
Mar 29 01:15:55 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 01:16:15 <_ASK> women are more perverse than they seem...
Mar 29 01:17:02 <init_alx> yeah
Mar 29 01:17:06 <init_alx> i'm just starting to realize that
Mar 29 01:17:44 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Alx]] [[Translation]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]]
Mar 29 01:18:14 <init_alx> woo!
Mar 29 01:18:17 <init_alx> 2 of mine
Mar 29 01:20:00 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - this is for _internal_ hardware though.
Mar 29 01:24:37 <init_alx> it would be interesting to host websites from the neo
Mar 29 01:24:43 <init_alx> like a mobile blog site
Mar 29 01:24:55 <init_alx> or stream something like justin.tv
Mar 29 02:13:37 <rwhitby> hmm - my dialer is not working.
Mar 29 02:13:53 <roh> not working means?
Mar 29 02:14:11 <rwhitby> well, this phase0 hardware, and the latest image.
Mar 29 02:14:28 <roh> ah.. it should actully use gsmd now?
Mar 29 02:14:31 <rwhitby> using the phase0 image, I was able to make calls via stty to the gsm module directly.
Mar 29 02:14:53 <rwhitby> so I've now flashed the latest u-boot, kernel, image. and gsmd is running.
Mar 29 02:15:08 <rwhitby> I added "-l /var/log/gsmd" to /etc/init.d/gsmd options to see what is happening.
Mar 29 02:15:17 <roh> yep.. i already did that with the help of gsmd and the libgsmd-tool
Mar 29 02:16:03 <rwhitby> yeah, looks like I need to step back from using the ui dialer, and try again using libgsmd-tool
Mar 29 02:16:34 <roh> last time i tried (3 days ago) the ui didnt actually do any dialing attemts here
Mar 29 02:16:37 <rwhitby> http://pastebin.ca/414529 is the output from gsmd startup.  everything there looks fine.
Mar 29 02:16:54 <roh> it only did its immediate connection-accepted-mockup thingie
Mar 29 02:16:59 <rwhitby> time to kill the dialer app and try driving gsmd manually
Mar 29 02:17:25 <rwhitby> oh, I thought people had made real calls with the ui dialer.
Mar 29 02:17:40 <rwhitby> if that's not the case, then I won't worry and will just go back to cmdline dialling.
Mar 29 02:17:49 <roh> there also is afaik no ui to input any pin code.. so you need to do that by hand i assume
Mar 29 02:21:02 <roh> well... i'll just try
Mar 29 02:21:13 <roh> i have a fresh build from 2:30 am here
Mar 29 02:24:59 <parag0n_> the UI dialer should work from bootup now, according to the changelog on the wiki
Mar 29 02:42:39 <roh> YAY
Mar 29 02:42:44 <roh> it does
Mar 29 02:43:02 <roh> i just needed to power it on and register network it seems
Mar 29 02:43:51 <roh> just made my first call from the device with numbers i dialed on the ts
Mar 29 02:44:07 <nibbler_de> ;)
Mar 29 02:45:24 <roh> libgsmd-tool -v -m shell after booting and O *wait* R *wait* the starting the dialer and dialing
Mar 29 02:45:44 <roh> actually gsmd crashed on beween on first try and i started it again ;)
Mar 29 02:46:40 <roh> nibbler_de your sim came exactly on the day i could use one *g*
Mar 29 02:49:52 <nibbler_de> good to hear ;)
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Thu Mar 29 02:59:56 2007