**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Mar 31 02:59:56 2007 Mar 31 03:24:08 Hmph. Scheduling while atomic: klogd. Mar 31 03:31:46 any hope that ne could run mono apps on openmoko? Mar 31 03:32:01 that would ease app development when you don't need to have ugly c code :) Mar 31 03:32:33 *shrug* sure, if you have the disk space. Mar 31 03:32:50 I was thinking that MS has .Net ported to Windows phones Mar 31 03:32:59 how they managed to shrink footprint? Mar 31 03:33:11 well, there's the memory limitations too, but I suppose one can fit some mono stuff in that too... Mar 31 03:33:38 good morning mjr :) Mar 31 03:33:40 I'd rather just python Mar 31 03:34:00 that was what I thought Mar 31 03:34:01 first Mar 31 03:34:45 hm, I should find a kernel that doesn't crash Mar 31 03:35:08 but then, I realized that if we can compile python to CLR and make CLR work on the phone 1) the platform becomes language neutral 2) we get all those .net goodies 3) mono project benefits 4) microsoft has done it already Mar 31 03:35:13 then don't use linux! *rimshot* Mar 31 03:35:34 another choice would be romify .net code, maybe use GCC to compile it to native? Mar 31 03:35:36 or pypy Mar 31 03:35:37 isn't there already a python to il compiler? Mar 31 03:35:47 dho: ironpython Mar 31 03:35:53 well, yeah, ironpy... right Mar 31 03:36:09 'course, there's also jython ;P Mar 31 03:36:12 instead of going CPython runtime, I'd go for Mono Mar 31 03:36:35 I worked on Tao platform which compiles Java to native embedded runtime Mar 31 03:36:46 not that glorious thing, but it might "thight loops" as one could say Mar 31 03:36:59 you had full J2SE run-time in 64 mbit rom Mar 31 03:37:03 + phone stuff too Mar 31 03:37:16 and kernel, and others Mar 31 03:41:13 common lisp is nicer ;-) Mar 31 04:01:29 anyone know how to get into u-boot with the latest u-boot? Mar 31 04:01:54 when I just tap the button it turns itself back off again immediately, when I hold it down it boots, but it boots in such a way that doesn't let me drop to the u-boot prompt. Mar 31 05:36:38 Hi Mar 31 05:36:39 counter Mar 31 05:36:40 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 6 days 15:11:40 (6.633 +-6.6 days) (694,132) Mar 31 06:40:04 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page]] Mar 31 07:02:49 Somebody awake? Mar 31 07:15:06 Mandarino: somewhere in the world ... Mar 31 07:21:01 w0w Mar 31 07:21:11 How are you rwhitby ? Mar 31 07:21:39 good. yourself? Mar 31 07:22:12 Today is saturday and I'm working... It's not good... Mar 31 07:23:49 I hate eclipse :( Mar 31 07:26:22 counter Mar 31 07:26:23 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 6 days 14:16:48 (6.595 +-6.6 days) (695,132) Mar 31 07:28:28 Next friday Mar 31 07:31:50 yep, can't wait. Got to find some funding though! Mar 31 07:33:25 bye Mar 31 08:16:28 openmoko: 03mickey * r1585 10/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/files/uboot-20070311-tools_makefile_ln_sf.patch: add uboot patch required for building (sorry for missing it) Mar 31 08:22:26 <_ASK_> do they have a set of standards for openmoko? Mar 31 08:26:45 <_ASK_> for example, how multitasking is supposed to work? Mar 31 08:35:54 _ASK_: no idea... Mar 31 08:36:29 <_ASK_> that's the problem, they are repeating the mistakes of desktop linux Mar 31 08:37:20 It'll end up another Zaurus. Mar 31 08:37:47 <_ASK_> and that means? Mar 31 08:38:04 that lots of people start cl0ning and install debian in a chroot Mar 31 08:39:10 <_ASK_> no, i mean, there are too many things stacker on top of each other Mar 31 08:39:14 <_ASK_> stacked Mar 31 08:39:35 <_ASK_> providing people with all the functionality thei might dream about Mar 31 08:39:47 <_ASK_> but without really meeting end user expectations Mar 31 08:40:20 I'm not affraid of that Mar 31 08:40:23 <_ASK_> i just saw a movie about the neo making a call Mar 31 08:40:35 <_ASK_> andand it's awful slow Mar 31 08:41:03 <_ASK_> and i was wondering why do people want X gui_over_network. Mar 31 08:41:10 if you use the default theme, yes Mar 31 08:41:20 _ASK_: over network? Mar 31 08:41:27 <_ASK_> X protocol Mar 31 08:42:12 I know what the X protocol is and how it work, but I think you don't quite get it Mar 31 08:42:13 _ASK_: With the Zaurus Sharp figured they could ride "the Linux wave" and make a PDA out of it. Instead they made a half PDA. In typical Liunx fasion a lot of disjoint things were thrown together and it had/has issues. Mar 31 08:42:34 <_ASK_> exactly Mar 31 08:42:52 <_ASK_> it's different to throw a lot of things than to make an OS Mar 31 08:43:20 <_ASK_> i was studying PalmOS in detail Mar 31 08:43:21 the zaurus was hilarious Mar 31 08:43:34 As opposed to PocketPC / WINCE which seems consistent, but it just behaves terribly. Mar 31 08:43:37 <_ASK_> for a mobile OS it's pertty well designed Mar 31 08:43:57 you hire a million monkeys (lineo) hoping to get a kernel and install a half finished product (qt/e2) against the advice of the creators (TT) Mar 31 08:43:58 _ASK_: Original PalmOS "executive" was purchased / licensed. Mar 31 08:44:19 <_ASK_> most of its problems are due to lacking memory protection and emulating motorola 68k Mar 31 08:45:12 <_ASK_> but, for example, in the preferences panel, there is an area for custom applets Mar 31 08:45:21 As for your X FUD: "A common misconception is that X's network features result in excessive complexity if only used locally, and that X's network capabilities cause an undesirable performance hit; modern X implementations use local sockets and shared memory, requiring very little overhead." Mar 31 08:45:51 I used an HTC Wizard today. The hardware is impressive. The slowness of the GUI is amazing. Mar 31 08:45:59 <_ASK_> the problem is not only how much CPU it consumes Mar 31 08:46:03 <_ASK_> but also how much RAM Mar 31 08:46:48 * koen checks Mar 31 08:46:59 70MB of ram free on my neo with the dialer opened Mar 31 08:47:20 <_ASK_> so 128-70 = 58mb just idle Mar 31 08:48:28 including caches and stuff Mar 31 08:48:29 <_ASK_> man, palm os ran on 2MB devices. Mar 31 08:48:34 so? Mar 31 08:48:41 DOS ran on 512K devices Mar 31 08:48:51 <_ASK_> i doubt it gives you 30 times more functionality Mar 31 08:49:51 <_ASK_> i would not mind, at all, if they manage to standarize things Mar 31 08:50:01 <_ASK_> but i have the feeling that it won't happen Mar 31 08:50:18 I had X and fluxbox, 4 terms and dillo in 28mb ram on my old laptop Mar 31 08:50:20 _ASK_: Building a phone on top of something like eCos would be more like what you are suggesting. Mar 31 08:50:51 <_ASK_> i wonder Mar 31 08:51:17 <_ASK_> why people is against distributing binaries, for example? Mar 31 08:51:50 "because". Mar 31 08:52:26 <_ASK_> if you have a precompiled program, then you get rid on the geeky mind. thing is, the OS must be able to run it, point. Mar 31 08:53:04 _ASK_: there is nothing stopping anyone from distributing binaries, most distros does this? Mar 31 08:53:47 so does omoko Mar 31 08:54:52 <_ASK_> linux, in general, is built upon the idea that you configure and compule Mar 31 08:54:54 <_ASK_> compile Mar 31 08:55:09 <_ASK_> most unix software in fact Mar 31 08:55:26 <_ASK_> many paths are hardcoded Mar 31 08:55:45 _ASK_: the correct question would be why are geeky people so pro distributing the code :) Mar 31 08:56:13 _ASK_: i think this is not anything to do with linux, Mar 31 08:56:43 software in general is built upon the idea that what's easiest for the author of the software is also easiest for the users Mar 31 08:57:15 <_ASK_> i'm going to order my ideas and write a document later Mar 31 08:57:57 <_ASK_> i don't know, i've seen the development of linux over time and it never feels really integrated Mar 31 08:58:37 <_ASK_> there are like 1000 versions of a program that do 90% of the same work Mar 31 08:58:47 yes, all the bits of the kernel are scatter all over the room Mar 31 08:59:03 <_ASK_> peole pulling to different directions Mar 31 08:59:11 linus should really glue them together for more 'integration' Mar 31 08:59:20 <_ASK_> nah Mar 31 08:59:34 Or he should hire one of the Riemann heirs to do proper integration Mar 31 08:59:40 <_ASK_> it's a psychological problem, i think Mar 31 08:59:53 <_ASK_> people confuses political liberty with liberty on informatics Mar 31 09:00:05 people confuse the kernel with the userspace apps Mar 31 09:00:31 <_ASK_> i know linux is just the kernel, but linux is marketed as a whole OS Mar 31 09:00:52 no, people confuse the kernel with the userspace apps Mar 31 09:00:54 <_ASK_> probably that's the problem Mar 31 09:01:02 <_ASK_> as long as linux is just the kernel and not an OS... Mar 31 09:02:23 the OS is redhat or debian, and they're fully based on binaries and the idea that you *shouldn't* configure and compile yourself Mar 31 09:02:44 <_ASK_> tell me a single distro that does it Mar 31 09:02:47 gentoo ruined it for everyone ;) Mar 31 09:03:28 balrog-kun: and more important, debian/freebsd and nexenta (ubuntu on solaris kernel) exist Mar 31 09:03:30 <_ASK_> one distro which allows you to install it, to configure it, without having to download anything from internet, without installing a patch, touching a text file or anything Mar 31 09:04:50 <_ASK_> i once read an article about social development; they mention a case about weapons and war in general Mar 31 09:05:43 <_ASK_> they say "why if there are better weapons we keep using the old ones?" Mar 31 09:06:13 <_ASK_> "because in the army what matters is logistics; if we changed weapons and calibers each week, we could not fight at all" Mar 31 09:07:11 "linux" does not have a consistent or unified vision. It's one million people doing one million things and sometimes their goals align. Mar 31 09:07:25 <_ASK_> well, that's my point Mar 31 09:08:26 <_ASK_> we should try to convince people that they are not just coding a few lines, but contributing to a much higher goal Mar 31 09:09:49 <_ASK_> it's a responsibility Mar 31 09:10:12 _ASK_ : show me the code :P Mar 31 09:10:33 i code for fun and i don't want to be convinced that i should align to something Mar 31 09:10:43 (unless when i code for money) Mar 31 09:10:54 <_ASK_> mmm, how bad Mar 31 09:10:57 or the money, time and effort .. Mar 31 09:11:22 <_ASK_> developers make a community, with or without a board of directors. Mar 31 09:14:09 <_ASK_> "Only too often on meeting scientific men, even those of genuine distinction, one finds that they are dull fellows and very stupid. They know one thing to excess; they know nothing else. Pursuing facts to doggedly and unimaginatively, they miss all the charming things that are not facts. Such scientists are responsible for the poor name which science so frequently carries among plain men. ... Mar 31 09:14:11 <_ASK_> ...They radiate the impression that its service is dehumanizing — that too much learning, like too little learning, is an unpleasant and dangerous thing. " Mar 31 09:14:35 <_ASK_> having too much knowledge about computers and too little about politics is a bad thing. Mar 31 09:18:11 <_ASK_> have a nice day/night guys. Mar 31 09:32:08 didn't realise this channel had turned into #openmoko-philosphy ... Mar 31 09:32:23 ..sophy Mar 31 09:34:29 if he hates linux so much, why does he even care about an open phone Mar 31 09:34:30 idiot Mar 31 09:35:15 more like #openmoko-trolling Mar 31 09:35:22 yeah that seems more fitting Mar 31 09:35:25 counter Mar 31 09:35:25 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 6 days 13:12:17 (6.550 +-6.6 days) (696,132) Mar 31 09:35:33 i understand that the STANDBY mode (enabled in pcf50606) doesn't preserve ram contents? Mar 31 09:35:49 that would be weird Mar 31 09:36:07 it's the mode that u-boot switches to when you choose power-off in boot menu Mar 31 09:36:17 ah Mar 31 09:36:28 trolls, gotta love em Mar 31 09:36:39 it doesn't poke the cpu, and i think you need to talk about the modes to the cpu first if you want to preserve ram Mar 31 09:43:33 hi Mar 31 09:58:55 Darkness surrounding my life... Mar 31 11:26:55 * buz curses lenovo Mar 31 11:43:28 hm i have a question => is it possible to ask tomtom to port it on the neo? Mar 31 11:43:48 i think tomtom run on a linux device, right? Mar 31 11:44:35 They do Mar 31 11:44:36 always possible to ask Mar 31 11:45:03 i will be the first to buy the software :D Mar 31 11:45:12 PBeck: You mean a binary blob program, and then pay for their maps and such? Mar 31 11:45:31 i think they have a good gui and the maps are good, so we can have a good navi software Mar 31 11:45:41 I like TomTom too Mar 31 11:45:54 But what hw do they need for those nice 3D maps? Mar 31 11:46:28 CM: tomtom is no opensource so we only can get a binary ;) Mar 31 11:46:34 *not Mar 31 11:46:53 but i dont think we can get a good opensource alternative Mar 31 11:46:59 tomtom should not have to do much porting Mar 31 11:47:02 create maps is hard work Mar 31 11:47:06 I think we can, but not as quickly Mar 31 11:47:08 they already run their devices on linux Mar 31 11:47:11 buz: yes i think so too Mar 31 11:48:05 buz: but we musst assure tomtom, that it will be a good idea to sell it for the neo ;) Mar 31 11:48:33 i wonder if you could get it to run right away maybe Mar 31 11:48:50 not sure how their gui works Mar 31 11:49:00 buz: how you mean? Mar 31 11:49:14 well maybe you could take the binary from some device and run it on neo :) Mar 31 11:49:20 i think they are using arm too Mar 31 11:49:34 MPF why can't i get thinkpads with intel950 in switzerland... Mar 31 11:49:38 only that ati crap Mar 31 11:49:45 buz: oh ok Mar 31 11:50:17 buz: but i think that would not be so easy ;) Mar 31 11:50:29 in the us they ship the very model i want Mar 31 11:50:31 just not here Mar 31 11:51:27 buz: hm how should we ask tomtom? Mar 31 11:51:36 i dunnop Mar 31 11:51:46 sean or fic will be the best idea ;) Mar 31 11:52:09 probably Mar 31 11:52:20 but interest from community probably wouldnt hurt either Mar 31 11:52:34 with a car navi would the neo perfect Mar 31 11:52:40 *will Mar 31 11:53:12 hm should i ask on the mailinglist? Mar 31 11:53:17 Why not. Mar 31 11:53:21 OSM is cool. Mar 31 11:53:28 OSM? Mar 31 11:53:34 But it's a _LONG_ way off production. Mar 31 11:53:40 openstreetmap.org Mar 31 11:54:00 SpeedEvil: yes you are right, but i think its not a alternative .. Mar 31 11:54:04 i doesnt even list major highways in switzerland Mar 31 11:54:07 much less other roads Mar 31 11:54:15 a company behind the software, maps and so on are besser Mar 31 11:54:17 *better Mar 31 11:54:30 yeah its too boring to draw maps Mar 31 11:54:41 SpeedEvil: i will be very hard work Mar 31 11:54:44 *it Mar 31 11:54:58 I know. Mar 31 11:55:03 SpeedEvil: and OSM have not very many maps Mar 31 11:55:05 * SpeedEvil has been doing some mapping. Mar 31 11:55:23 SpeedEvil: i would pay for a good software Mar 31 11:55:33 and i think tomtom is a good software Mar 31 11:56:07 we have not many options for a opensource navi software ;) Mar 31 11:57:16 http://www.openstreetmap.org/index.html?lat=56.19321236291454&lon=-3.165765060997736&zoom=12 is what I've done (click the + on the right then select osmarender for most of it. Mar 31 11:57:22 tomtom is good. Mar 31 11:57:30 and we know why => it is hard work to create a map Mar 31 11:57:38 The routing is the easy part. Mar 31 11:57:43 It's the map that's hard. Mar 31 11:57:51 yes Mar 31 11:58:41 There are _very_ few hotspots in OSM that are adequately mapped, by any stretch of the imagination. Mar 31 11:59:03 It's only in the last week that all the trunk roads in scotland have been added. Mar 31 11:59:19 There are places of 150K population with one road in them, ... Mar 31 11:59:27 hm tomtom on a microsd card will be a good idea, or? Mar 31 11:59:35 Sure. Mar 31 11:59:41 If they'll play. Mar 31 11:59:57 His Speedy :P Mar 31 11:59:59 if they'll play? Mar 31 12:00:10 If they will cooperate. Mar 31 12:00:16 SpeedEvil: ok Mar 31 12:00:29 SpeedEvil: i write now a post for the mailinglist ;) Mar 31 12:03:44 SpeedEvil: do you know how works internally OSM? Mar 31 12:03:53 How are adding maps... Mar 31 12:04:49 I got an idea for Neo with OSM Mar 31 12:04:52 an easy to use osm map editor on the openmoko would be terrific. Mar 31 12:05:14 using josm is painful. Mar 31 12:06:12 It's not _that_ bad. Mar 31 12:06:17 It could be a whole lot better. Mar 31 12:06:26 recent versions are almost usable. Mar 31 12:06:51 you should remove the point in front of openmoko.org in your topic guys Mar 31 12:07:16 Even an option to simply contribute GPS traces to OSM after a delay, anonymised. Mar 31 12:07:25 erdinger: it's there for a point Mar 31 12:08:01 The intention is to make it clear that you can pick one of the preceeding names - wiki, www, ...) and add it Mar 31 12:08:11 Personally, I don't think that's very clear. Mar 31 12:08:13 ah i see :) Mar 31 12:08:22 it's just that some poeple will get confused Mar 31 12:08:59 where can i buy? Mar 31 12:08:59 erdinger: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 31 12:09:09 not announced yet Mar 31 12:11:15 hehe nice Mar 31 12:11:54 couple of weeks? Mar 31 12:11:56 And the advantage is that the time in the topic stays right :) :/ Mar 31 12:12:10 ¬_¬ counter Mar 31 12:12:12 It's probably a week - though who knows. Mar 31 12:12:23 you know :P Mar 31 12:12:24 A couple of weeks is probably not a bad estimate. Mar 31 12:12:37 I don't have any knowledge specifically. Mar 31 12:12:48 Just that 'late march' is probably now wrong. Mar 31 12:21:30 counter Mar 31 12:21:30 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 6 days 11:49:15 (6.493 +-6.5 days) (697,133) Mar 31 12:22:21 the interval steadily shrinks lol Mar 31 12:22:34 in the end it wil be today 1+- 0 Mar 31 12:23:18 * buz is wondering Mar 31 12:23:31 surely fic would know by now if they planned to start shipping in a week Mar 31 12:25:35 buz: I think that they are more into "it ships when it ships" instead of "it ships in a week, waaait scratch that, another week, noo .. wait scratch that again .. " atleast with P1 I guess .. heh Mar 31 12:26:03 well if it were to ship in a week, surely production would already have started? Mar 31 12:26:47 true, but what if they had 0% yield? :P Mar 31 12:26:50 Someone implied there was hardware. Mar 31 12:27:03 sannes: exactly Mar 31 12:27:08 so something could be wrong Mar 31 12:27:09 0% yield on testing would be a possibility. Mar 31 12:27:37 i wonder what kind of yield they'd need Mar 31 12:27:56 It depends on the sort of yield too. Mar 31 12:28:04 If it's 'randomly flaky' Mar 31 12:28:14 well yield of perfectly working pcb's i guess Mar 31 12:28:20 has anyone looked into using Lazarus for creating quick GUI apps for the neo? Mar 31 12:28:25 then you pretty much can assume that some are flaky that you haven't noticed. Mar 31 12:28:33 which will screw your P1 devs Mar 31 12:28:45 and create a lot of bad blood Mar 31 12:29:06 Psi_: I'm just guessing, but glade might be more feasible way... Mar 31 12:30:01 heh, ugh, just realized that the hackers lunchbox is quite expensive .. heh Mar 31 12:30:17 Moderately. Mar 31 12:30:19 sannes: basically, you dont need it Mar 31 12:30:23 You should never need it. Mar 31 12:30:28 unless you plan on hacking uboot maybe Mar 31 12:30:39 Unless you manage to screw uboot - which you should not normally need to touch. Mar 31 12:31:33 Worst case, you can send it to someone to reflash. Mar 31 12:32:09 ok my mail is send ;) Mar 31 12:32:18 (omg my english ;)) ;) Mar 31 12:32:21 It's almost exactly analogous to reflashing your PCs BIOS. Mar 31 12:33:16 well, it is fun to make your own bootloader, maybe not so interesting .. :P Mar 31 12:33:36 so for an app developer the lunchbox is a waste of money? Mar 31 12:33:48 Prettu much Mar 31 12:34:05 For a kernel developer - it may arguably have some slight point. Mar 31 12:34:07 cool, that saves me some money Mar 31 12:34:13 In that you can do JTAG debugging. Mar 31 12:34:29 But given that you don't need to do that - as you can debug as you do on a PC. Mar 31 12:35:00 hm can i flash a openmokoimage without a dev-board? Mar 31 12:35:07 yes Mar 31 12:35:28 will the lunchbox be compatible with future versions of neos? :) Mar 31 12:35:39 PBeck: even without rebooting sometimes Mar 31 12:36:02 balrog-kun: while making a phonecall? Mar 31 12:36:04 ;) Mar 31 12:36:09 will the power of neo's usb will be enough for a foldable mimi usb keyboard? Mar 31 12:36:11 does one actually need to reflash images? or can we update like we would on a normal linux? Mar 31 12:36:14 uboot supports changing what kernel you boot without rewriting the bootloader, right? Mar 31 12:36:16 and playing mario bros on the Neo Mar 31 12:36:46 buz: i'm guessing at some point when things are stable Mar 31 12:37:02 buz: depends on what you mean by reflashing Mar 31 12:37:04 hehe the appeal of the hackers lunchbox, is in the fact that you can say "I have a hackers lunchbox" and gain geek points :P Mar 31 12:37:10 erdinger: no. Mar 31 12:37:16 erdinger: there is _no_ power. Mar 31 12:37:22 ouch Mar 31 12:37:25 At least in this version. Mar 31 12:37:34 You need a battery powered hub or something. Mar 31 12:37:36 buz: when you modify any file that is on the rootfs mounted from flash, some part is being reflashed Mar 31 12:37:43 does it have bluetooth? Mar 31 12:37:46 yes Mar 31 12:37:46 .. do ubuut support reading from whatever filesystem neo uses? Mar 31 12:37:47 yes Mar 31 12:37:50 v2 EDR Mar 31 12:37:57 balrog-kun: that's not what we usually refer to by reflashing i think Mar 31 12:38:02 SpeedEvil, so i could use a bt keyboard? Mar 31 12:38:06 yep. Mar 31 12:38:07 erdinger: yes Mar 31 12:38:07 yep Mar 31 12:38:10 balrog-kun: ok thats super, so i can build my own image Mar 31 12:38:14 There are nice credit card sized keybs. Mar 31 12:38:30 i'm wondering it would be easy to have a small usb hub with a rausb :) Mar 31 12:38:32 balrog-kun: i need only the lunchbox, when i will flash the bootloader? Mar 31 12:38:34 Though of course much more expensive than your average USB keyb. Mar 31 12:38:47 PBeck: no when you fuck up during that Mar 31 12:38:52 PBeck: no, only when you screw it and need to debug Mar 31 12:39:07 id imagine that the battery in tiny bt keyboards would last a while too, since the only power consuming part would be the bt transceiver Mar 31 12:39:28 40h or so Mar 31 12:39:30 IIRC Mar 31 12:39:35 the two aa batteries in my wireless keyboard last for months Mar 31 12:39:41 ^ Mar 31 12:39:49 thats not BT though Mar 31 12:39:53 yeah Mar 31 12:40:18 40h active - the crediot card sized one. Mar 31 12:40:18 hm when i screw it <= that will be a problem :P Mar 31 12:40:23 i guess its different with a device, like a wireless kdb, that only transmits when you press a key. Compared to a BT device which has to handshake all the time Mar 31 12:40:30 not sure why you'd need to reflash uboot though Mar 31 12:40:41 personally, i never reinstall grub for one Mar 31 12:40:48 SpeedEvil: url? Mar 31 12:41:00 hm will it be possible to connect the neo with a usb printer and print any files? Mar 31 12:41:10 the printer powered the usbcable or? Mar 31 12:41:15 not sure Mar 31 12:41:31 and likely there wont be cups Mar 31 12:41:32 as long as the printer doesnt need any usb power, it should work Mar 31 12:41:37 not initially anyway Mar 31 12:41:38 http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/product/8555.htm Mar 31 12:41:44 Unfortunately. Mar 31 12:41:57 Some devices require some power to notice a host. Mar 31 12:42:02 yeah Mar 31 12:42:21 the printer I tried, and the belkin tetrahub both will not notice a host with absolutely no power. Mar 31 12:42:26 SpeedEvil: unavailable Mar 31 12:42:51 buz and SpeedEvil :( Mar 31 12:42:55 Oh - right, changed. Mar 31 12:43:02 got the name of it anyway Mar 31 12:43:03 perhaps my hp psc 1310 :p Mar 31 12:43:13 http://www.mobilefun.co.uk/cat/Bluetooth-Keyboards.htm Mar 31 12:43:37 good old laser key was at the cebit. total crap if you ask me Mar 31 12:43:38 if you connected the internal 3.3v through a resister to the USB plug 5v pin, it wouldnt run stuff, but it would be high enough for devices to detect that there is voltage there Mar 31 12:44:09 _maybe_. Mar 31 12:44:26 laser key _looks_ awesome. Mar 31 12:44:30 id imagine most devices just tie the 5V line to a IO pin Mar 31 12:44:31 I don't need to use it. Mar 31 12:44:32 Psi_: or we use a powered hub Mar 31 12:44:38 I've typed on a ZX81 Mar 31 12:44:40 and 3.3 is enough to pull a 5v io pin high Mar 31 12:44:41 but thats not so mobile :/ Mar 31 12:44:55 Not all powered hubs work. Mar 31 12:45:06 PBeck, i just was googlin for a _battery_ powered hub Mar 31 12:45:10 can't find anything Mar 31 12:45:14 it's got to be one that can cope with unpowered hosts. Mar 31 12:45:25 the belkin tetrahyub for example can't. Mar 31 12:45:31 a friend of mine built one of those for his zaurus Mar 31 12:45:44 dcordes: hm a battery hub will be cool Mar 31 12:45:47 * SpeedEvil wanders away. Mar 31 12:48:31 dcordes: i found one Mar 31 12:48:38 guaqua, let me see Mar 31 12:48:41 just use those exact keywords :) Mar 31 12:48:54 expansys? Mar 31 12:48:54 dcordes: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Mar 31 12:50:39 guaqua, any link? Mar 31 12:51:14 dcordes: http://www.dvorak.org/blog/?p=10624 Mar 31 12:56:15 guaqua, looks ok Mar 31 12:56:19 not too big Mar 31 12:57:22 says...supports windows and mac Mar 31 12:57:43 might be an idea to ask them if it works with devices that don't output any power Mar 31 12:58:17 yea Mar 31 12:58:22 it is us 20$ Mar 31 12:58:47 not much at all Mar 31 12:59:02 http://www.ritzcamera.com/product/EP5439059.htm Mar 31 12:59:28 guaqua, i think there will be no compatibillity issues since it will be just a hub Mar 31 12:59:44 but the power is a question Mar 31 13:01:52 what comes into mind when you see someone running a binary called sb and it is hogging all your cpu? Mar 31 13:02:02 can't think of the name of the program Mar 31 13:04:20 guaqua: then I think sb --help Mar 31 13:04:42 not a system binary Mar 31 13:05:41 oh, well I can't imagine sb using a lot of memory? (uploading/downloading files with X/Y/Z MODEM ?) Mar 31 13:06:28 guaqua: sorry read memory .. hehe Mar 31 13:06:38 guaqua: I would think renice :P Mar 31 13:06:51 it's not a problem at this time on sunday, but just thinking Mar 31 13:09:30 guaqua, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2006-December/000721.html Mar 31 13:10:13 i'd like to know if someone got it working :) Mar 31 13:12:07 guaqua, http://thoughtfix.blogspot.com/2006/01/usb-power-injector-2.html see that's nice Mar 31 13:12:29 ui my mail is on the mailinglist ^^ Mar 31 13:14:52 dcordes: that is nice Mar 31 13:15:08 i like the penguin housing :) Mar 31 13:16:32 that device looks great.. Mar 31 13:16:34 it looks nice Mar 31 13:16:41 dremel is the key :) Mar 31 13:16:46 and hot glue aswell ;) Mar 31 13:18:32 though i'd personally prefer a device with 4xAA NiMH, just to be able to recharge them easily Mar 31 13:18:43 wouldn't it be possible to mass-produce something similiar for FIC? Mar 31 13:18:54 sure it'd be possible Mar 31 13:19:14 but are we thinking of using batteries or usb recharge or something more exotic? Mar 31 13:20:06 kiney_: and also, that isn't exactly legal to sell since it might actually break stuff Mar 31 13:20:17 hmm Mar 31 13:20:52 if you change the plug on the phone side to special not common plug and include a special cable to connect it to the Neo? Mar 31 13:21:33 that'd mess up a whole lot of other use cases Mar 31 13:26:00 well, i'm definitely going to do something like that :) Mar 31 13:26:27 me too.. Mar 31 13:26:42 It shouldn't be that hard to build... Mar 31 13:29:55 counter Mar 31 13:29:55 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: 6 days 11:15:02 (6.469 +-6.5 days) (698,133) Mar 31 13:38:13 Is this chat logged somewhere? Mar 31 13:39:40 yes. Mar 31 13:39:59 where? Mar 31 13:40:09 Dunno :) Mar 31 13:40:15 ok Mar 31 13:40:17 I suspect there is a link on the wiki. Mar 31 13:42:03 hmm, I can't find it... anyway, it's not that important. Mar 31 13:42:05 I haven't been online in a couple days. Any new developments WRT the GL gps plugin? Mar 31 13:42:21 No. Mar 31 13:42:25 :-( Mar 31 13:42:32 Well - no productive ones. Mar 31 13:42:58 But at least now I can boot an SD image that I have built! Mar 31 13:43:10 Thats progress for me, but not really for the project Mar 31 13:43:44 kiney_: apt's logs are at http://apt.rikers.org/%23openmoko/ Mar 31 13:44:59 pH5: thanks Mar 31 13:45:28 Ocibu: random question - how long is the ionosphere static for? I.E. if you've got an accurate model, is it useful for minutes, hours? Mar 31 13:45:50 That depends upon where on earth you are and what is happening in the iono Mar 31 13:46:02 At quiet times, an iono can be good for hours Mar 31 13:46:17 At other times, it flucuates at tens of Hz Mar 31 13:46:47 How long will the data 'typically' improve a fix for? Mar 31 13:47:40 Hrm. My guess is on the order of tens of minutes Mar 31 13:47:58 But I will check with our iono experts at work Mar 31 13:48:25 You know that the nav message does have single frequency iono model parameters Mar 31 13:48:36 Just wondering for how long a ionospheric download might help. Mar 31 13:48:48 It does? Mar 31 13:49:00 I thought it only had orbits and times. Mar 31 13:50:43 now that model is not near as good as you could do Mar 31 13:53:49 Ocibu, you do gps development? Mar 31 13:54:58 yes Mar 31 13:56:43 Someone here has a P0 device? How is the fisical quality of the housing? Mar 31 13:56:57 Reportedly very good. Mar 31 13:56:59