**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Apr 08 02:59:57 2007
Apr 08 03:02:20 * bhima boots his old iPaq into linux.
Apr 08 03:02:55 <bhima> It doesn't like to boot into linux.
Apr 08 03:14:50 <Hopscotch> good morning
Apr 08 03:51:25 <cjb-> Looking at the architecture diagram, the GSM Calypso and WM9784 sound controller have a direct interface-- so Linux wouldn't be able to filter/tap/intercept/whatever the audio going in/out, correct? (I've love to be able to save phonecalls like normal email messages, even if everyone been told its 'illegal surveillance'...)
Apr 08 04:08:22 <pjz> cjb-: I think that's the equivalent of the sound card having a line in or line out permanently hooked to the GSM, which is okay
Apr 08 04:10:02 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03rwhitby * r86 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added support for patching a frozen openembedded revision
Apr 08 04:10:10 <cjb-> That's what I was thinking. I'd expect there's a telco & government regs requiring that-- exactly from keeping keen hackers from adding their own inline voice scramblers & etc. :)
Apr 08 04:10:25 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03rwhitby * r87 10mokomakefile/trunk/patches/openembedded-e2dbb52fe39df7ef786b6068f6178f29508dfded/ (. series sjf2410-linux-native-rm-work-ordering.patch): Added a patch for rm_work incompatibility in sjf2410-native.
Apr 08 04:11:28 <pjz> cjb-: actually, it *has* to be possible to do that, or else bluetooth headphones are impossible
Apr 08 04:11:59 <pjz> rwhitby: rock on, man
Apr 08 04:14:05 <rwhitby> ~logs
Apr 08 04:14:15 <apt_> hmm... logs is apt/ibot/infobot/jbot/purl all log daily to http://ibot.rikers.org/<channelname>/ where channelname is html encoded ie: %23debian | lines that start with a space are not shown | some channels have stats at http://ibot.rikers.org/stats/<channelname>.html.gz
Apr 08 04:14:56 <pjz> rwhitby: oh, hey, update-makefile should do: wget $url -O Makefile.new && move Makefile.new Makefile instead of the way you're doing it
Apr 08 04:15:07 <pjz> er, s/move/mv/
Apr 08 04:15:29 <pjz> rwhitby: cuz right now if the wget fails you're left without a Makefile
Apr 08 04:15:39 <pjz> rwhitby: (since it's been renamed to Makefile.old)
Apr 08 04:17:40 <pjz> counter
Apr 08 04:17:41 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 15:51:09 (8.661 +-8.7 days) (780,148)
Apr 08 04:18:21 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03rwhitby * r88 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Changed update-makefile to make sure you're never left without a Makefile. Thanks to Paul Jimenez.
Apr 08 04:18:44 <rwhitby> thx
Apr 08 04:19:23 <pjz> rwhitby: np; I only know that's useful because my cablemodem was being flaky last week ;)
Apr 08 04:22:11 <pjz> rwhitby: btw, thanks muchly for mokomakefile, it's been nice
Apr 08 04:22:34 <rwhitby> you're welcome.
Apr 08 04:22:42 <rwhitby> ~emulate rwhitby
Apr 08 04:22:44 <apt_> Another Satisfied Customer!
Apr 08 04:22:49 * pjz chuckles.
Apr 08 04:23:34 <pjz> rwhitby: also, fyi, I just did the qemu build under ubuntu and it seemed to go fine - I just had to install gcc-3.4 and libsdl1.2-dev
Apr 08 04:24:07 <rwhitby> yeah, I built under etch and had to do the same thing.
Apr 08 04:24:28 <rwhitby> ok, now my rm_work frozen version build is progressing again.
Apr 08 04:25:21 <rwhitby> and we're not hamstrung by a frozen OE version stopping the build due to the third type of patching capability I added.
Apr 08 04:27:26 <pjz> nice
Apr 08 04:28:08 <rwhitby> I also made it *not* do a mtn pull if the OE version is frozen and you're already at that version.  That should reduce the load on the monotone servers quite a bit, and speed up "make update" for everyone.
Apr 08 04:30:16 <pjz> yeah, paying attention to caching is good :)
Apr 08 04:31:51 <pjz> rwhitby: how goes the MokoSlug?
Apr 08 04:32:40 <rwhitby> pjz: it builds - just working on getting pivot to external rootfs on usb stick working in Angstrom (it works in SlugOS, but we want to base MokoSlug on Angstrom and do things properly this time around).
Apr 08 04:32:52 <pjz> rwhitby: is there an open source sync server yet?
Apr 08 04:33:09 <rwhitby> CoreDump|afk has ported altboot to the NSLU2, so we'll be using that for pivot_root functionality.
Apr 08 04:33:14 <rwhitby> Dunno about the sync server.
Apr 08 04:33:34 <pjz> I thought a sync server would be a good thing for mokoslug to have
Apr 08 04:33:35 <rwhitby> ok, I'm outta here for about 6 hours.  Gotta visit the rellies on Easter day :-)
Apr 08 04:33:45 <pjz> alright have a good one :)
Apr 08 04:33:51 <rwhitby> pjz: if it's in OE, it will be available for MokoSlug
Apr 08 04:34:06 <rwhitby> (after I get rootfs onto external disk working for Angstrom)
Apr 08 04:34:34 <rwhitby> the trick is getting the right stuff in the minimal flash rootfs (you probably won't be syncing to internal flash for instance)
Apr 08 04:34:50 <bhima> There are audio recording apps for a number of different phones.
Apr 08 04:34:55 <rwhitby> however, you will want bluetooth networking in the internal flash, for diskless installations.
Apr 08 04:35:00 <rwhitby> back later
Apr 08 04:35:24 <bhima> And you can even get apps that superimpose audio on the phone call.
Apr 08 04:36:01 <bhima> In the USA, in some states it's legal to record your phone calls without the other party's agreement.
Apr 08 04:36:16 <cjb-> bhima: not the case in Australia, though.
Apr 08 04:37:18 <cjb-> It's always bugged me that one personal communication can be saved and grepped, but another that's conceptually no different from the first is illegal..
Apr 08 04:37:32 <bhima> cjb: mmm. Just wanted to make sure it was clear that audio recording was not a universally illegal thing.
Apr 08 04:39:19 <bhima> I haven't heard of any FCC rules requiring audio channel un-hackability. Or, for that matter, rules in any other country.
Apr 08 04:40:08 <bhima> The only un-hackability stuff I've heard FCC-wise is modifications to receivers for picking up cellular bands. Wide band receivers need to have tamper-proof 800MHz band blocks.
Apr 08 04:40:25 <cjb> behdad: I'm cjb, not cjb-.  ;-)
Apr 08 04:40:43 <cjb> gah!  I said that to the wrong person.
Apr 08 04:40:53 <cjb> s/behdad/bhima/
Apr 08 04:41:03 <cjb> let's just give up on this whole nickname thing.  it isn't working out.
Apr 08 04:41:39 <pjz> oof, need to rename cjb to cball and cjb- to cbaird
Apr 08 04:42:29 <cjb-> I'll do that.. (but I'm miffed at having to use a different username for the first time since 1986. :P :)
Apr 08 04:42:46 <pjz> heh
Apr 08 04:43:08 <pjz> well, my usual username is 'pj', and that collides quite often ;)
Apr 08 04:45:25 <bhima> Well, yeah, anyway. In my experience, lobbyists talk a lot about wanting interesting limitations on devices more than they actually manage to get laws passed.
Apr 08 04:46:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[FAQ]]
Apr 08 04:46:38 <bhima> Most of the annoying limitations on cellphones are just the vendors sucking.
Apr 08 04:48:04 <pjz> bhima: true.  The exception is the FCC frequency ones.
Apr 08 04:48:25 <bhima> Of the two WinCE phones I've used, I think one of them passed bluetooth audio through the CPU, and the other had a separate PCM interface.
Apr 08 04:48:45 <pjz> I'm honestly kind of worried about legality of selling neo's in the states if they haven't passed FCC
Apr 08 04:48:50 <bhima> One would mix CPU audio with the remote speech, the other wouldn't, iirc.
Apr 08 04:49:28 <pjz> bhima: yeah, well, since bt is all via the cpu on the Neo, it's got to be grabbable/mixable
Apr 08 04:49:44 <bhima> pjz: I'm pretty certain that it would not be legal at all, but there are so many cellphones being imported that probably never got FCC approval...
Apr 08 04:49:57 <pjz> bhima: true
Apr 08 04:50:19 <cjb> cbaird: terribly sorry.  :)
Apr 08 04:50:38 <cjb> cbaird: I bet it's not going to help to note that I was 4 for most of 1986.
Apr 08 04:50:41 <pjz> bhima: though, you know, at this point I think the FCC and its foreign analogues need to figure out some kind of recipricocity.
Apr 08 04:50:46 <bhima> One app I'd like is speech synthesis for when I can type but can't talk.
Apr 08 04:50:54 <pjz> cjb: hehehe
Apr 08 04:51:18 <pjz> bhima: oh, that'd be cool.
Apr 08 04:51:44 <bhima> Phone answers and tells the caller that he'll be hearing my typing.
Apr 08 04:51:45 <cbaird> softmodems?
Apr 08 04:51:45 <aloril> cbaird: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Apr 08 04:55:40 <bhima> Oh, there's a hardware rev expected in 6 months from now?
Apr 08 04:56:21 <cbaird> cjb: after an era of having account usernames assigned to me as an undergrad, is was a moment of pride that I was finally allowed to choose my own account name-- to have it be 3-letter initials, like like the Unix Demigods dmr, ken, kre, ... :)
Apr 08 04:57:54 <bluelightning> cbaird: the unix world has grown just a little since those days though :)
Apr 08 04:58:04 <cjb> cbaird: a little too similar to djb for my liking, though ;-)
Apr 08 04:59:05 <bhima> my first real UNIX account was 'gf2e'; everybody got first initial , last initial, two random characters.
Apr 08 04:59:11 <cbaird> cjb: eww... (not, not a qmail/djb fan either..)
Apr 08 04:59:26 <bhima> My father in law was on the system in its early days, so he got 'tpn' and a UID of under 100. My UID was ~30k.
Apr 08 05:00:07 <cjb> hah.  my boss at OLPC started Project Athena at MIT, so he has UID <100 there.
Apr 08 05:00:24 <cjb> Not me, though.  My last university-given ID was "cjb204".
Apr 08 05:00:58 <bhima> My father in law worked on Andrew project at CMU; MIT asked us if they could license our window manager, but IBM had sponsored it and said no. So MIT wrote X. :)
Apr 08 05:02:00 <bhima> The CMU system did not have the silly copy-on-select feature, something I have always despised about X11.
Apr 08 05:02:16 <cjb> bhima: well, we can blame IBM.  :)
Apr 08 05:02:50 * bhima wonders if the AGPS in the 1973 will replace his bluetooth GPS.
Apr 08 05:07:07 <pjz> bhima: what do you associate your bluetooth GPS with/
Apr 08 05:07:18 <pjz> bhima: your phone? or something else/
Apr 08 05:07:23 <bhima> pjz: normally, my Nokia N800.
Apr 08 05:07:28 * pjz frowns at his shift key.
Apr 08 05:07:32 <bhima> big screen, maemo mapper.
Apr 08 05:07:44 <pjz> bhima: yeah, I think you shouldn't need it anymore.
Apr 08 05:08:07 <bhima> The sensitivity of the GPS I got late last year was way, way better than my previous unit.
Apr 08 05:08:26 <bhima> One less device would be nice; one less charger to plug in would really be nice.
Apr 08 05:08:57 <pjz> bhima: yeah, though I'd be okay with as many chargers if they were all the *same* one
Apr 08 05:09:10 <bhima> The GPS at least uses a miniUSB connector.
Apr 08 05:09:12 <pjz> bhima: the world just needs to standardize on mini-usb-as-charger
Apr 08 05:09:19 <pjz> bhima: ah, that's good
Apr 08 05:09:23 <bhima> But my two Nokia gadgets, both current, use different connectors.
Apr 08 05:09:32 <pjz> bhima: yah, ick.
Apr 08 05:09:42 * pjz is actually using a Nokia 6620 for day-to-day stuff
Apr 08 05:09:49 <bhima> n800 has a _tiny_ connector, E70 is much bigger.
Apr 08 05:10:13 * bhima will have to re-work his gadget collection as the 1973 and iPhone come out.
Apr 08 05:10:16 <pjz> I've got a moto A780 but I think I blew in some bogus firmware
Apr 08 05:10:41 <pjz> it's not bricked, but man I hate dealing with the windoze moto-firmware tools
Apr 08 05:11:03 <bhima> That's a Linux phone, yes? How hackable is it now?
Apr 08 05:11:25 <cbaird> prospective app (useful to me): automatic geotagging of camera photo downloads (from comparing the GPS tracklog and the photo's EXIF date information)
Apr 08 05:11:36 <pjz> bhima: somewhat.  There's some folk trying to get it up to where they can put openmoko on it, actually (see www.openezx.org)
Apr 08 05:12:09 <bhima> cbaird: Yeah, that would be very nifty.
Apr 08 05:12:21 <bhima> You can get a GPS input for fancier Nikon cameras...
Apr 08 05:12:23 <pjz> cbaird: yeah, just store the GPS data in the EXIF data
Apr 08 05:13:16 * pjz is a big believer in keeping data together as much as possible
Apr 08 05:14:12 <bhima> pjz: Yes, but my camera doesn't really have a way to add that data.
Apr 08 05:14:20 <cbaird> I tried something similar with an 'offline' script, but it was just too much bother download the eTrex tracklog through the pfranc+serial+USB2serial 
Apr 08 05:14:32 <bhima> I'll have to post-process it afterwards.
Apr 08 05:15:02 <bhima> cbaird: If you add Google Maps integration that might make it cute enough to be worthwhile...
Apr 08 05:16:01 <bhima> Hrm. It seems that the 1973 won't wake on bluetooth events.
Apr 08 05:17:13 <bluelightning> hmm, perhaps I should stick to the officially produced images... these ones built using MokoMakeFile don't actually seem to work all that well
Apr 08 05:20:59 <cbaird> I'd expect the geotagging would be apart of a general 'Moko onboard photo-download-from-camera app (correct me if I read wrong and it doesn't do USB hosting). Alternatively, it could grovel through the camera's own DCIM/ and add the tags to the existing photos somehow without downloading them first.
Apr 08 05:22:06 <bhima> I wouldn't really expect to download photos from my camera to my phone, though. Unless my phone had a hard drive or something.
Apr 08 05:23:33 <cbaird> Hmm. That 2G microSD limit would crap me a bit..
Apr 08 05:24:03 <cbaird> *cramp
Apr 08 05:24:43 <bhima> Hmm. I could do NFS to my n800. It's got two full size SD slots...
Apr 08 05:30:29 <bhima> So why is FIC doing this project? Is there a real strategic goal, or did some people just decide it would be 'fun'? :)
Apr 08 05:37:04 <paulproteus> NFS over Bluetooth, bhima? (-:
Apr 08 05:37:20 <bhima> Sure. It beats NFS over GPRS!
Apr 08 05:37:21 <paulproteus> re: strategic goal: I think the stuff that came out of FIC in Nov/Dec/Jan was about that.
Apr 08 05:37:24 * paulproteus gulps
Apr 08 05:49:56 <pjz> bhima: FIC is doing it because Sean Moss-Pultz is good at evangelism of openness as a way to make money ;)
Apr 08 05:50:09 <pjz> bhima: AFAICT, anyway 
Apr 08 05:54:36 <bhima> pjz: heh, thanks.
Apr 08 05:55:07 * bhima looks at the hardware debugging stuff onthe wiki.
Apr 08 05:58:28 * pjz looks at the opensync project
Apr 08 05:59:28 <bhima> Wait, no place to stick the stylus in on it?
Apr 08 06:02:02 * bhima sleep &
Apr 08 06:20:22 <bluelightning> woot! successfully made & received a call on my neo for the first time
Apr 08 06:20:40 <bluelightning> well, if you ignore the fact that there was no audio on the neo side...
Apr 08 06:20:46 <bluelightning> still :D
Apr 08 06:40:12 <TomR> im suprised at how many people are in here. HI everybody!
Apr 08 06:42:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Current_events]] [[FAQ]]
Apr 08 06:42:21 <xkr47> hi :)
Apr 08 06:42:40 <bluelightning> hi TomR 
Apr 08 07:23:21 <dotmef> counter
Apr 08 07:23:22 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 14:18:19 (8.596 +-8.6 days) (781,148)
Apr 08 07:23:45 <univac> counter
Apr 08 07:23:45 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 14:18:07 (8.596 +-8.6 days) (782,149)
Apr 08 07:49:47 <Mandarino> Hi
Apr 08 08:08:46 <dirakx> counter
Apr 08 08:08:46 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 13:55:36 (8.580 +-8.6 days) (783,150)
Apr 08 08:22:01 <Stephmw> good morning
Apr 08 08:39:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Current_events]]
Apr 08 09:28:04 <ewon> anyone know offhand how well the openmoko will work in the US? I'm from Europe(and hence the land of 100% GSM coverage), but I hear the US can be somewhat different
Apr 08 09:42:11 <CM> koen|away: Nice bumblebee pic :)
Apr 08 09:47:35 <rwhitby> '';kkkkkkk  
Apr 08 09:47:55 <rwhitby> sorry - 2yr old at keyboard :-)
Apr 08 09:51:23 <rwhitby> bluelightning_: the MokoMakefile images with the frozen OE version should be identical to the official images.  The previous unfrozen OE ones were not.
Apr 08 09:52:26 <bluelightning_> rwhitby: ok... I found I had other issues (mainly thinking that it was now OK to flash without erasing first, which it clearly isn't) so that could have been the source of my problems
Apr 08 09:52:51 <bluelightning_> next time I reflash I'll do it from a mokomakefile-built image and see what happens
Apr 08 09:53:29 <rwhitby> make sure you've rebuilt from scratch in the last 24 hours with the frozen OE rev
Apr 08 09:56:25 <bluelightning_> rwhitby: completely from scratch? hmm ok...
Apr 08 09:56:44 <rwhitby> yep, unfortunately.
Apr 08 09:56:58 <rwhitby> no other way to reliably go backwards in time in OE.
Apr 08 09:57:20 <bluelightning> no worries, I'll leave it running overnight
Apr 08 10:29:39 <Vitaly> counter
Apr 08 10:29:40 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 12:45:09 (8.531 +-8.5 days) (784,150)
Apr 08 10:34:18 <aloril> (script) planet: Holger "zecke" Freyther: RSS Reader updates http://zecke.blogspot.com/2007/04/rss-reader-updates.html
Apr 08 12:21:13 <Fletch> !counter
Apr 08 12:21:46 <filippo> counter
Apr 08 12:21:46 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 11:49:06 (8.492 +-8.5 days) (785,151)
Apr 08 12:31:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]]
Apr 08 12:33:24 <SpeedEvil> filippo, Fletch - a week or two.
Apr 08 12:54:24 <filippo> it similar to the time i require to build developer enviroment :-)
Apr 08 12:57:32 <filippo> what you suggest to read to understand the framework?
Apr 08 12:58:21 <filippo> I'm newbee in device development
Apr 08 14:08:17 <ethernode> Hi
Apr 08 14:08:48 <ethernode> Currently gathering people interested in e17 on openmoko, please tell me if interested
Apr 08 14:22:10 <amarsh04> what's a good URL for describing e17?
Apr 08 14:22:45 <madwoota> get-e.org ?
Apr 08 14:25:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[UI_Improvements]] [[Neo1973/ru]] [[Template:Languages]]
Apr 08 14:31:51 <amarsh04> thanks madwoota
Apr 08 15:09:03 <den-ros> ethernode: Hi. I am interesting in E17, but for now for hx4700... maybe jastinp was work under it?
Apr 08 15:09:04 <aloril> den-ros: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Apr 08 15:10:42 <den-ros> aloril: Thanks -will look there.
Apr 08 15:20:54 <ethernode> jastinp?
Apr 08 15:21:50 <ethernode> For those interested, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/E17 , add your nick/contact in the discussion part so that i can remember :)
Apr 08 15:22:35 <den-ros> ethernode: Sorry, can not remember his nick exect.
Apr 08 15:22:42 <koen> "These libs are quite embedded-oriented"
Apr 08 15:22:43 <koen> heh
Apr 08 15:22:49 <koen> show me 16bit colour support
Apr 08 15:22:50 <den-ros> :)
Apr 08 15:23:43 <ethernode> hey koen
Apr 08 15:23:51 <ethernode> you made the e17 oe packages , no?
Apr 08 15:24:41 <koen> no
Apr 08 15:24:48 <koen> OE doesn't have packages
Apr 08 15:25:03 <ethernode> i found commits about e17 menu generator
Apr 08 15:25:05 <koen> JustinP made the OE recipes, I build them and uploaded the packages
Apr 08 15:25:07 <ethernode> by YOU :))
Apr 08 15:25:14 <ethernode> okay
Apr 08 15:25:24 <ethernode> and, what's your opinion about e17 on this devices?
Apr 08 15:25:44 <koen> define e17
Apr 08 15:26:04 <koen> e-wm, entrance and friend are not suited for this kind of devices
Apr 08 15:26:06 <ethernode> well, the plain real e17, compiled for ARM, but tuned for a small vga screen
Apr 08 15:26:11 <koen> and eem is not a real app
Apr 08 15:26:19 <ethernode> i know
Apr 08 15:26:28 <koen> I'd say something build on evas and edje would be suitable
Apr 08 15:26:34 <ethernode> For instance, how well would e17 run on the neo?
Apr 08 15:26:34 <koen> but 'e17' is way to vague
Apr 08 15:26:40 <ethernode> if trimmed down
Apr 08 15:26:41 <ethernode> the wm
Apr 08 15:26:47 <koen> it wouldn't
Apr 08 15:26:47 <ethernode> i'm talking about the wm
Apr 08 15:26:51 <ethernode> why not?
Apr 08 15:26:54 <koen> e-wm is for the desktop
Apr 08 15:27:04 <koen> it requires a keyboard and three button mouse
Apr 08 15:27:07 <atla> there is e17 for PDAs and stuff
Apr 08 15:27:12 <ethernode> yup
Apr 08 15:27:15 <ethernode> on zauruses
Apr 08 15:27:21 <ethernode> VGA screen
Apr 08 15:27:25 <atla> looks promising
Apr 08 15:27:35 * koen has a suspicion people don't really know what they are talking about
Apr 08 15:27:50 <koen> OMG SCREENSHOT OF E ON A ZAURUS!!!!!!!!
Apr 08 15:27:55 <atla> but still nothing for phones
Apr 08 15:28:43 <zecke> well there is raster's evas demo
Apr 08 15:28:48 <den-ros> I try to connect my Brando like bluetooth keyboard and bluetooth mouse with hx4700 with Angstrom. 
Apr 08 15:28:51 <koen> OMG DEMO VIDEO!!!!!
Apr 08 15:28:58 <koen> I MUST WORK!! LOL!!!!
Apr 08 15:29:04 <den-ros> :)
Apr 08 15:29:11 * koen gets back to doing something productive
Apr 08 15:30:42 <ethernode> koen is right :p
Apr 08 15:31:12 <koen> and FWIW, it would be advisable to ignore anything zaurus related
Apr 08 15:31:19 <koen> unless you want to show a bad example
Apr 08 15:31:23 <ethernode> too different?
Apr 08 15:32:04 <koen> yes
Apr 08 15:32:12 <ethernode> is the neo too slow then?
Apr 08 15:32:21 <koen> no
Apr 08 15:32:22 <ethernode> is the X server too "simple"?
Apr 08 15:32:24 <koen> no
Apr 08 15:32:27 <ethernode> so?
Apr 08 15:32:31 <mickey|bbl> actually kergoth and me did the first shot at the e packages, but anyway ;)
Apr 08 15:32:36 <ethernode> only an input related pb?
Apr 08 15:32:43 <koen> ethernode: does the neo have a keyboard?
Apr 08 15:32:47 <koen> or a 3 button mouse?
Apr 08 15:32:53 <ethernode> no, but we can use gestures
Apr 08 15:32:56 <koen> or a 1024x768 75dpi screen?
Apr 08 15:33:01 <koen> heh
Apr 08 15:33:05 <koen> "gestures"
Apr 08 15:33:11 <ethernode> 640*480 is pretty awesome !
Apr 08 15:33:13 <koen> you really have no idea
Apr 08 15:33:23 <koen> 640x480 on 300DPI
Apr 08 15:33:27 * pjz thinks a pickboard should be fine
Apr 08 15:33:36 <koen> that's effectively 200x160
Apr 08 15:33:42 <zecke> mickey|bbl: hi :)
Apr 08 15:33:46 * pjz used one on his quarter-VGA A780 phone
Apr 08 15:34:03 <ethernode> -> mickey: and did it run?
Apr 08 15:34:26 <koen> repeat after me: evas/edje/etk makes sense on embedded
Apr 08 15:34:27 <ethernode> no idea about?
Apr 08 15:34:37 <koen> repeat after me: e-wm does NOT make sense on embedded
Apr 08 15:35:29 <ethernode> e-wm modules arch already exists
Apr 08 15:35:38 <ethernode> as well as a pager
Apr 08 15:35:49 <ethernode> and many useful thingies that could be used !
Apr 08 15:36:14 <ethernode> why woul'nt e-wm make sense if you stick every app in a dedicated virtual desktop?
Apr 08 15:36:30 <ethernode> using the pager to switch apps?
Apr 08 15:36:40 * koen sighs
Apr 08 15:37:01 <ethernode> i know, newbies are boring
Apr 08 15:37:02 * pjz would think you'd run out of RAM really quick
Apr 08 15:37:24 <den-ros> What about for example something like twm...:) ? to use with BT keyboard and mouse.. 
Apr 08 15:37:41 * koen edits wiki *again*
Apr 08 15:37:53 <koen> which ignorant n00b keeps reverting stuff?
Apr 08 15:38:03 <den-ros> twm can looks pretty enough...
Apr 08 15:38:17 <ethernode> ok, sorry, i had'nt understood why a section had disappeared 
Apr 08 15:38:25 <ethernode> >.<
Apr 08 15:38:38 <ethernode> i'm the ignorant n00b
Apr 08 15:38:39 <koen> "remove bogus 'port' links and references to unmaintained binary crap"
Apr 08 15:38:53 <koen> the wiki has a changelog message for a reason
Apr 08 15:39:15 <ethernode> okay
Apr 08 15:39:17 <ethernode> sorry
Apr 08 15:39:56 <ethernode> and, NO, i didn't simply watch the eem video thinking: wow it works
Apr 08 15:40:27 <ethernode> may you please point me towards the maintained resources then?
Apr 08 15:40:48 <ethernode> at least give meaningful resources to these useful noobs that just want to try?
Apr 08 15:41:00 <ethernode> to the wiki?
Apr 08 15:41:21 <ethernode> (sorry, replace useful by "useless")
Apr 08 15:42:14 <koen> everything you need for EFL is already in OE
Apr 08 15:42:25 <koen> so no need to link to packages or build descriptions
Apr 08 15:43:00 <koen> and EEM really does nothing, it's just a menu that scrolls
Apr 08 15:43:05 <ethernode> i KNOW
Apr 08 15:43:08 <koen> it won't be developed
Apr 08 15:43:20 <ethernode> yes, but it may be a starting point
Apr 08 15:43:27 <ethernode> for useless noobs wanting to learn efls
Apr 08 15:44:11 <koen> I suggest buying K&R for those people
Apr 08 15:45:15 <zecke> koen: behave or you end up without a bot snack tonight :)
Apr 08 15:45:27 <ethernode> if only you didn't say "those" with a little less disgust...
Apr 08 15:45:39 <koen> zecke: it's forbidden to advise K&R nowadays?
Apr 08 15:46:07 <zecke> koen: sure it is
Apr 08 15:46:12 <ethernode> koen: it's forbidden to show patience and politeness?
Apr 08 15:46:27 <koen> ethernode: you asked advice, I gave it and you didn't listen
Apr 08 15:47:05 <koen> I tried explaining it further, you didn't listen
Apr 08 15:47:54 <ethernode> I don't see why not having a physical keyboard and mouse is the most blocking element
Apr 08 15:47:57 <koen> I tried explaining that e-wm requires a keyboard and mouse and a big, 100dpi screen
Apr 08 15:48:07 <koen> you didn't listen
Apr 08 15:48:49 <ethernode> You mean, e17 NEEDS a physical, hard, keyboard to launch? 
Apr 08 15:48:54 <ethernode> + mouse?
Apr 08 15:49:03 <koen> I tried explaing that everything you need is in OE, but you didn't listen
Apr 08 15:49:29 <koen> ethernode: I said 'e-wm'
Apr 08 15:49:42 <koen> stop trying to confuse people by saying 'e17'
Apr 08 15:50:02 <ethernode> ok
Apr 08 15:50:05 <ethernode> my fault
Apr 08 15:50:22 <koen> have you actually used e-wm on a touchscreen?
Apr 08 15:50:37 <koen> and/or on a device with out a keyboard?
Apr 08 15:51:35 <koen> or on a 300dpi screen?
Apr 08 15:51:40 <ethernode> no
Apr 08 15:51:54 <koen> I thought so
Apr 08 15:52:10 <ethernode> i know
Apr 08 15:52:30 <ethernode> but why shoudn't i try?
Apr 08 15:52:37 <Stephmw> actually, this testcase would be an ideal use of the emulator
Apr 08 15:52:42 <koen> I used e-wm for some months on my netbook pro (touchscreen, 800x600, 120dpi, keyboard, 400MHz armv5te with 256MB ram) and it was barely useable
Apr 08 15:53:11 <koen> since you can't (easily) remap things to only require one mousebutton (the stylus)
Apr 08 15:53:22 <ethernode> wait, e-wm is the regular, stock  e17 window manager?
Apr 08 15:53:32 <bhima> Ooh. 300 dpi LCD? What has that?
Apr 08 15:53:40 <koen> and 95% of the operations needs ctrl+click alt+click or ctrl-drag, etc
Apr 08 15:53:49 <koen> bhima: the neo1973 phone
Apr 08 15:54:01 <ethernode> alt+click = moving windows = unneccessary on handeld
Apr 08 15:54:23 <bhima> koen: wow. Didn't realize it was _that_ high.
Apr 08 15:54:25 <koen> wm = unneccessary on handheld
Apr 08 15:54:29 <ethernode> lol
Apr 08 15:54:29 <ethernode> :)
Apr 08 15:54:33 * bhima agrees with koen.
Apr 08 15:54:35 <koen> bhima: 280 dpi to be exact
Apr 08 15:54:44 * bhima has no wm on his older iPaq.
Apr 08 15:54:47 <koen> so you have a *tiny* screen where all apps run fullscreen
Apr 08 15:54:58 <ethernode> yes
Apr 08 15:55:06 <ethernode> but how do you switch between apps?
Apr 08 15:55:10 <ethernode> or watch time
Apr 08 15:55:20 <bhima> You ssh in and kill -9 the app in front.
Apr 08 15:55:21 <ethernode> or look at gprs signal?
Apr 08 15:55:23 <koen> with openmoko-footer and on my watch
Apr 08 15:55:24 <ethernode> lol
Apr 08 15:55:33 <koen> the gprs signal is on the top panel
Apr 08 15:55:34 <ethernode> very practical for daily use
Apr 08 15:55:55 <koen> what has a panel to do with a wm?
Apr 08 15:56:13 <bhima> ethernode: well, in my other pocket, I have an n800, and in my other other pocket, I have a keyboard, so sshing in to my phone isn't too hard.
Apr 08 15:56:50 <koen> bhima: you might have trouble setting up a bluetooth connection on the n800 ;)
Apr 08 15:57:03 <bhima> koen: hrm...?
Apr 08 15:57:13 <ethernode> in fact, i'm more interested in e17's shelves and modules features than pure wm
Apr 08 15:57:17 <koen> (no wifi on the neo)
Apr 08 15:57:31 <koen> ethernode: you didn't say that
Apr 08 15:57:49 <koen> (how many times have I asked you what you meant with 'e17'?)
Apr 08 15:57:51 <ethernode> okay; but could these features be reused without using e-wm?
Apr 08 15:57:57 <ethernode> sorry, again >.<
Apr 08 15:58:10 <bhima> koen: I could set up dund on the neo with a shell.
Apr 08 15:58:12 <pjz> ethernode: did you read the e17 page on the wiki? I think it mostly says that.
Apr 08 15:58:13 <koen> yes, those could be reused without e-wm
Apr 08 15:58:27 <ethernode> i used the term wm too slightly
Apr 08 15:58:28 <koen> bhima: right, that would rock, btw
Apr 08 15:59:08 <ethernode> ... how?
Apr 08 15:59:43 <ethernode> can it work without the huge EFL suite?
Apr 08 15:59:44 <koen> I'd say, embedd an evas surface in a gtk window
Apr 08 15:59:46 <bhima> Actually, one thing I need to finish working on is a Konfabulator widget that lets you send URLs or text or stuff over bluetooth to the n800 / 770.
Apr 08 16:00:15 <ethernode> but wouldn't gtk slow evas down? 
Apr 08 16:00:20 <koen> bhima: I'd settle for something that syncs with my mac
Apr 08 16:00:22 <bhima> So when you have your maemo device next to your laptop or desktop, you get a little floating window that lets you do nifty stuff with it.
Apr 08 16:00:28 <koen> ethernode: why would it?
Apr 08 16:00:41 <bhima> koen: I sync my n800 with my mac every day...
Apr 08 16:01:11 <koen> ethernode: all gtk does is initialize a window for evas to paint in
Apr 08 16:01:21 <koen> bhima: with isync or rsync?
Apr 08 16:01:26 <ethernode> Ok, if you can embed an evas surface in a gtk window without any performance loss...
Apr 08 16:01:28 <bhima> rsync. :)
Apr 08 16:01:35 <ethernode> okok
Apr 08 16:01:37 <koen> bhima: cheater!
Apr 08 16:01:54 <ethernode> but can we take the gadcon code ?
Apr 08 16:01:57 <bhima> koen: well, I don't use any apps on my n800 that would sync with isync, so I'm not _realy_ cheatng.
Apr 08 16:02:18 <koen> bhima: I'd like to have the built-in addressbook to be synced
Apr 08 16:02:27 <koen> bhima: and integrated with maemo-mapper ;)
Apr 08 16:02:38 <bhima> koen: I only use the address book for jabber, and that auto-syncs.
Apr 08 16:04:10 <bhima> Actually, one thing I'd like to do is link maemo mapper on my 770 and n800.
Apr 08 16:04:30 <bhima> So when I'm driving somewhere, my wife can do navigation stuff on the n800 while I stare at the 770.
Apr 08 16:05:10 <koen> that'd be cool
Apr 08 16:05:26 <bhima> http://homepage.mac.com/gopiballava/gopimobile/
Apr 08 16:05:39 <koen> ethernode: one of the plans is to move fingerbased openmoko apps to evas
Apr 08 16:05:48 <koen> ethernode: and canola will switch to evas
Apr 08 16:06:02 <koen> but before that can happen it needs to support 16bit colourdepth
Apr 08 16:06:52 <ethernode> okay, that's an answear :)
Apr 08 16:07:10 * bhima has the odd gadget or two in his car.
Apr 08 16:07:12 <ethernode> the neo's display is 16bit only? you mean evas only does 24?
Apr 08 16:07:20 <koen> yes, and yes
Apr 08 16:08:13 <mickey|bbl> i can't tell ya more, but EFL received a massive interest-boost since yesterday
Apr 08 16:08:25 <mickey|bbl> i demoed it 
Apr 08 16:09:04 <koen> mickey|bbl: :)
Apr 08 16:09:15 <ethernode> demoed? please pardon my non-native englishspeaking skills
Apr 08 16:09:28 <koen> bbl, the big ham on the table is asking for some interest
Apr 08 16:09:51 <mickey|bbl> i did a presentation 
Apr 08 16:10:09 <mickey|bbl> talking 30min about EFL and its possible impact if used in current / future products
Apr 08 16:10:14 <mickey|bbl> from my personal POV
Apr 08 16:10:20 <mickey|bbl> (point of view)
Apr 08 16:10:35 <ethernode> ok, demonstrated
Apr 08 16:10:37 <mickey|bbl> ya
Apr 08 16:10:43 <ethernode> thx
Apr 08 16:10:46 <mickey|bbl> np
Apr 08 16:11:09 <ethernode> but a full-EFL environment is unrealistic, right?
Apr 08 16:11:31 <bhima> EFL?
Apr 08 16:11:55 <ethernode> Enlightenment Foundation Libraries
Apr 08 16:11:58 <mickey|bbl> I'm solely speaking about the libraries
Apr 08 16:12:05 <mickey|bbl> i have little interest in their apps
Apr 08 16:12:33 <ethernode> but e17's gadcon and modules features are of no interest to openmoko?
Apr 08 16:12:54 <mickey|bbl> not for direct usage. as a UI role model it's nice
Apr 08 16:13:08 <mickey|bbl> but who knows
Apr 08 16:13:13 <mickey|bbl> i have yet to run it on my Neo
Apr 08 16:13:17 <mickey|bbl> *time*
Apr 08 16:13:19 <zecke> raise TooMuchSweetsError() :}
Apr 08 16:13:19 <pjz> "how's the phase 1 ship date looking?
Apr 08 16:13:27 <pjz> speaking of time :)
Apr 08 16:14:16 <ethernode> I have another question: can maemo apps run on non-maemo devices? Could the neo become a maemo device?
Apr 08 16:14:30 <mickey|bbl> some of them yes
Apr 08 16:14:37 <mickey|bbl> in theory yes, in practice no way
Apr 08 16:14:47 <ethernode> corporate stuff...
Apr 08 16:15:00 <ethernode> you mean, using them? 
Apr 08 16:15:02 <mickey|bbl> speed and UI paradigms being the showstoppers
Apr 08 16:15:08 <ethernode> ah
Apr 08 16:15:29 <mickey|bbl> maemo is "the desktop PC experience on an internet tablet"
Apr 08 16:15:44 <mickey|bbl> which is cool 
Apr 08 16:15:50 <mickey|bbl> but i doubt that it works for a smartphone
Apr 08 16:16:03 <ethernode> too bad clutter can't be used
Apr 08 16:16:11 <mickey|bbl> not on this model
Apr 08 16:16:15 <mickey|bbl> :)
Apr 08 16:16:25 * pjz is looking forward to putting a vncserver on his openmoko
Apr 08 16:16:34 <zecke> mickey|bbl: aha
Apr 08 16:16:40 <pjz> so I can carry a desktop around with me
Apr 08 16:16:52 <ethernode> yes, but won't it break too many things when upgrading to an OpenGL-enabled model?
Apr 08 16:17:03 <ethernode> i mean, everything will be to restart from scratch,
Apr 08 16:17:05 <ethernode> ?
Apr 08 16:17:35 <ethernode> Yes, but you can run qemu from windows with you neo
Apr 08 16:18:12 <mickey|bbl> well
Apr 08 16:18:14 <mickey|bbl> it's X
Apr 08 16:18:41 <pjz> mickey|bbl: resist NIH syndrome
Apr 08 16:18:57 <mickey|bbl> *nod*
Apr 08 16:19:02 <mickey|bbl> it's tempting though ;)
Apr 08 16:19:03 <bhima> maemo apps are designed for quite high res screens, so porting them would probably be easier than porting from other gtk systems.
Apr 08 16:20:25 <ethernode> ok
Apr 08 16:20:58 <ethernode> well, sorry to have said too many dumb things, i'll try to LISTEN better
Apr 08 16:21:15 <ethernode> some things cleared in my mind though
Apr 08 16:21:16 <ethernode> thx
Apr 08 16:21:17 <ethernode> bye
Apr 08 16:21:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Bootable_USB_device_emulation]] [[E17]] [[Neo1973/ru]] [[Talk:E17]] [[UI_Improvements]] [[Booting_from_SD]]
Apr 08 16:33:03 <sannes> counter
Apr 08 16:33:04 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 09:43:28 (8.405 +-8.4 days) (786,151)
Apr 08 16:33:22 <bhima> What does the counter mean?
Apr 08 16:33:40 <sannes> hm, I feel like a kid in the bactseat of a car .. "are we there yet? are we there yet?"
Apr 08 16:34:33 <pjz> bhima: its about how long until Phase 1 release
Apr 08 16:34:36 <sannes> bhima: says when people may be able to order neo 1973 phones .. and when I say people I mean developers ..
Apr 08 16:35:10 <sannes> (or other people that want to hurt themselves :P)
Apr 08 16:35:23 <bhima> developers as in people with some official status, or developers as in anybody brave enough?
Apr 08 16:35:42 <sannes> the brave :)
Apr 08 16:35:48 <bhima> Ahh, ok, right. So in a week I need to make up my mind. Hrm.
Apr 08 16:35:57 <pjz> anyone know the current kernel version for openmoko?
Apr 08 16:36:13 <sannes> not really, you can wait for even longer .. :P
Apr 08 16:36:42 <pjz> the latest dynamic tick stuff should be very helpful powersavings-wise
Apr 08 16:38:10 <bhima> So does the neo1973 definitely support dyntick?
Apr 08 16:38:58 <pjz> I don't know what that question means
Apr 08 16:39:28 <roh> pjz we are at 2.6.20.4-moko8
Apr 08 16:39:34 <bhima> dyntick doesn't really work on the 770, for example, when you enable its serial port.
Apr 08 16:39:59 <roh> i dunno about dyntick, but i think we are not even started really saving power at the current hw
Apr 08 16:40:04 <bhima> I think there are some other hardware options that prevent it from either working or being useful, I forget which.
Apr 08 16:40:53 <bhima> if I did the math right, I think the wiki indicated a day or two of battery with the CPU running and bluetooth live.
Apr 08 16:41:13 <bhima> Which is really enough for me.
Apr 08 16:51:48 <PBeck> tag
Apr 08 16:53:05 <bhima> notit
Apr 08 16:57:53 <CIA-16> openmoko: 03zecke * r1712 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-rssreader/src/ (application-data.h callbacks.c main.c): openmoko-rssreader: Implement filtering the feed categories
Apr 08 17:04:14 <aloril2> bhima: I think P1 ETA is from few days to 3 weeks depending on how stability problem is solved (see [[Neo1973]]
Apr 08 17:05:00 <aloril2> about requirements for buying P1, see [[FAQ]]
Apr 08 17:05:50 <bhima> aloril2: Ok, thanks.
Apr 08 17:06:06 * bhima remembers that one spin of the TuxScreen device had an amusing auto-routing problem...
Apr 08 17:06:19 <bhima> It routed the CPU clock all over the place...
Apr 08 17:06:38 <bhima> It didn't do the best for stability. :)
Apr 08 17:07:29 <cbpage> ooooops
Apr 08 17:16:45 <bhima> I've realized that, for many of the things that would make an open source phone valuable to me, WiFi is important. VoIP related least cost routing is one of my two killer features.
Apr 08 17:17:01 <bhima> The other is properly programmable notification options with context sensitivity.
Apr 08 17:17:27 <bhima> I want to program how my phone responds to an SMS I don't read.
Apr 08 17:17:42 <bhima> Increasing nag level.
Apr 08 17:19:32 <koen> bhima: "properly programmable" is "settings panel" or "patch C code"?
Apr 08 17:21:09 <bhima> koen: The UI designer in me wants it to be expressed in a nice, easy to comprehend UI. The python developer in me wants it to be programmable in python if there isn't a UI. But my wife will loan me her copy of K&R if I realize that I've forgotten more C than I should've. :)
Apr 08 17:21:49 <bhima> I've only found this sort of option in Motorola phones. And they didn't give you any programmability in how it nagged you.
Apr 08 17:23:19 <den-ros> I just end raw translate to russian - page http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973/ru
Apr 08 17:33:55 <cbaird> another GPS-related want-list-entry: a stolen-phone tracking system :)
Apr 08 17:34:23 <bhima> Somebody at a show stole a prototype Siemens SX-1 with GPS tracking features.
Apr 08 17:34:35 <SuN> Nice... takes some guts :)
Apr 08 17:34:51 <bhima> Actually, it took some ignorance. :)
Apr 08 17:35:00 <bhima> They found them.
Apr 08 17:36:20 <cbaird> Stories like that happen often.. Someone in the UK stole a GPS-tracked delivery van a few weeks ago, and it was a no-brainer finding him. :)
Apr 08 17:36:49 <bhima> I did read that a top-tier german car executive had his armored vehicle stolen.
Apr 08 17:37:02 <bhima> It had every sort of tracking system they would imagine...
Apr 08 17:37:17 <bhima> He parked it for 20 minutes visiting somebody's house.
Apr 08 17:37:26 <bhima> It was never found.
Apr 08 17:37:34 <Basheri> :O
Apr 08 17:39:42 <cbaird> With stolen computers, it's typical that the harddrive gets wiped before being passed on. What's the routine for stolen mobile phones?
Apr 08 17:40:17 <bhima> I think that in Europe they're doing a lot of IMEI blocking.
Apr 08 17:41:34 <bhima> In the US, it still seems like people don't know about SIM cards.
Apr 08 17:44:16 <cbaird> I've noted that most of the remotely-recovered stolen laptop success stories have all had the perp being 'socioeconomically deprived'.. that is, not the type to know of harddrive-wiping..
Apr 08 17:44:17 <SpeedEvil> In the UK, it's been reported that the time till it gets blocked is under 2 days in 90% of cases.
Apr 08 17:45:59 <SpeedEvil> If it's reported stolen that is.
Apr 08 17:46:12 <SpeedEvil> They get sold overseas.
Apr 08 17:47:27 <cbaird> With my 'moko, I'm planning on having it record a GPS fix every hour and emailing that to a filter here. Even better would being able to ssh into the phone and get a continous track. Probably doable in Australia, where stolen phones don't immediately get shipped overseas.
Apr 08 17:48:00 <cbaird> I expect in Europe, it's probably the case the the phone wouldn't even be turned on again until it's left the country. :/
Apr 08 17:48:10 <bhima> I'm figuring better than hourly, but adaptive in agreement with the server.
Apr 08 17:48:21 <bhima> The server can request higher speed upates if it wants.
Apr 08 17:48:54 <SpeedEvil> No reason why the phone can't go on on RTC every hour.
Apr 08 17:48:56 <bhima> AFAIK, none of the networks allow inbound TCP, so you'll need some sort of reverse tunelling thing.
Apr 08 17:49:15 <cbaird> Reverse tunnel SSH was implied. :)
Apr 08 17:49:34 <SpeedEvil> Also, look on the wiki under My_Account for ideas on what happens to stolen neos.
Apr 08 17:49:34 <bhima> About three years ago, TMobile US allowed tcp _inside_ their network. :)
Apr 08 17:51:44 <cbaird> Making it too obvious that the phone has tracking abilities /might/ not be a great idea.. The chav's first reaction will be to smash it. :/
Apr 08 17:58:50 <sannes> hm, auto run on the sd card and tracking could be fun :D
Apr 08 17:59:43 <high-rez> counter
Apr 08 17:59:43 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1: a week, a day 09:00:08 (8.375 +-8.4 days) (787,151)
Apr 08 18:01:27 * bhima reads the febuary rant about cellphones and locking and crippling.
Apr 08 18:01:49 <Basheri> I really want the wifi =)
Apr 08 18:02:02 <bhima> The crippled wifi-less phone from Cingular had wifi removed due to cost, I believe, according to NOkia people I spoke to.
Apr 08 18:02:20 <bhima> Cingular cells phones with wifi, just not this one.
Apr 08 18:02:34 <Basheri> ok :O
Apr 08 18:17:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FAQ]] [[Main_Page/ru]] [[Neo1973/ru]] [[Wishlist:Bootable_USB_device_emulation]]
Apr 08 18:20:20 <jaj> Hi!
Apr 08 18:20:26 <Vegar> I want to get started translating .po files
Apr 08 18:20:57 <jaj> does anybody know when it will be possible to purchase an openmoko mobile?
Apr 08 18:20:58 <aloril> jaj: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Apr 08 18:21:19 <neostrider> hello folks
Apr 08 18:21:27 <jaj> I heard it would be on Apr 1
Apr 08 18:22:02 <jaj> sorry for the noise, I should have checked the FAQ ;)
Apr 08 18:22:10 <SpeedEvil> Alas, no.
Apr 08 18:22:14 <SpeedEvil> week or two.
Apr 08 18:22:19 <SpeedEvil> It looks like.
Apr 08 18:23:10 <Vegar> (at least)
Apr 08 18:28:09 <neostrider> any chance of getting the neo on Brazil?
Apr 08 18:28:29 <koen> neostrider: in an affordable way?
Apr 08 18:28:41 <neostrider> hahahaha
Apr 08 18:28:46 <neostrider> preferably
Apr 08 18:28:54 <koen> there was atleast one neo in brazil last month :)
Apr 08 18:29:05 <neostrider> Bossa conference?
Apr 08 18:29:12 <koen> yes
Apr 08 18:29:33 <koen> bossa conference was awesome
Apr 08 18:30:27 <MacNorth> morning folks :)
Apr 08 18:30:46 <neostrider> I wanted to go
Apr 08 18:30:51 <neostrider> but I live too far
Apr 08 18:30:57 <neostrider> Rio de Janeiro
Apr 08 18:31:13 <neostrider> I wanted to see the maemo code tutorial...
Apr 08 18:32:46 <SpeedEvil> neostrider: it's going to sell worldwide for $350US + shipping.
Apr 08 18:32:55 <neostrider> nice =-D
Apr 08 18:33:15 <neostrider> is there any restriction to having openmoko SDK+Maemo SDK on the same box?
Apr 08 18:35:17 <koen> no, since openmoko doesn't use scarebox :)
Apr 08 18:36:25 <neostrider> hahah...what does it use?
Apr 08 18:36:31 <neostrider> scratchbox is not that bad...
Apr 08 19:41:53 <Vegar> qemu-neo1973: how do I launch the onscreen keyboard?
Apr 08 19:43:19 <roh> Vegar click on the white fielt on the upper left
Apr 08 19:43:34 <Vegar> there is no white field
Apr 08 19:44:39 <kmeyer> I'm running mokomakefile's setup atm... I'm getting 5kiB/s off openembedded.org, is that more likely limited on my end or the website's end?
Apr 08 19:45:20 <koen> kmeyer: I get 2.5MByte/s to oe.org from my buildhost
Apr 08 19:45:20 <buz_> i think its slow for everyone
Apr 08 19:45:43 <kmeyer> hehe
Apr 08 19:45:52 <kmeyer> koen: are they next to each other?
Apr 08 19:45:53 <roh> Vegar you got the touchscreen-calibration dialog first, and then the 'desktop' ?
Apr 08 19:46:09 <Vegar> yes
Apr 08 19:46:53 <roh> Vegar in the upper bar should be one button on the left, and the second should flip on the keyboard
Apr 08 19:47:38 <Vegar> there's the menu button
Apr 08 19:47:43 <Vegar> but not that white box
Apr 08 19:47:57 <Vegar> how do I reboot?
Apr 08 19:53:00 <koen> kmeyer: no, 600 km apart
Apr 08 19:53:27 <kmeyer> koen: I hate european 100mbit home lines :P
Apr 08 19:53:37 <kmeyer> I have 512kbit down at home.
Apr 08 19:54:01 <koen> not a home line, it's the server in the lab
Apr 08 19:55:13 <kmeyer> yeah
Apr 08 19:55:14 <kmeyer> oh well
Apr 08 19:56:14 <koen> (I did have a 100Mbit home line in the past)
Apr 08 19:56:47 <bhima> Unlimited traffic?
Apr 08 19:57:29 <koen> 150GB internal and 15GB external per week
Apr 08 19:57:42 <SpeedEvil> Hmm.
Apr 08 19:57:54 * SpeedEvil does >15G/week on 512/256.
Apr 08 20:00:50 <kmeyer> exactly
Apr 08 20:01:08 * kmeyer is getting 3 kiB/s from OE.org
Apr 08 20:09:08 <filippo> hello all.   where is root shell in qemu image?
Apr 08 20:13:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]]
Apr 08 20:26:41 <Magon> koen: you have university account? :-)
Apr 08 20:29:16 <koen> Magon: I had till I moved
Apr 08 20:31:23 <Magon> university connections are the best you can probably get, at least in czech
Apr 08 20:34:47 <kmeyer> .nl has good connections
Apr 08 20:36:52 <koen> Magon: I lied, I still have a uni account, but only behind 1mbit cable now
Apr 08 20:42:40 <dilinger> u
Apr 08 20:50:18 <Vegar> meh
Apr 08 20:50:45 <Vegar> I wish there was a list of .pot files and an easy way to submit .po files
Apr 08 21:04:53 <Elrond> Hmm, there are enough .de developers for openmoko, so .de translations aren't needed, I guess?
Apr 08 21:45:35 <kmeyer> 4kiB/s from Oe.org...
Apr 08 21:45:37 <kmeyer> :-(
Apr 08 21:48:05 <giggls> does anybody of the developers have a working GPS?
Apr 08 21:48:47 <cjb> Does the GPS driver exist yet?
Apr 08 21:48:51 <giggls> I would be interested in accuracy comparisons with Sirf III
Apr 08 21:50:14 <giggls> cjb: as far as I understood LaF0rges Blog the daemon is proprietary but working
Apr 08 21:50:57 <cjb> oh, ok.  I haven't seen the binary for the daemon anywhere.
Apr 08 21:54:22 <Elrond> giggls - Can you dig up that blog entry?
Apr 08 21:54:26 <giggls> cjb: I did not yet download any code, I just read the blog
Apr 08 21:55:55 <giggls> hm http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2006/11/08/#20061108-openmoko-gpl-clarification
Apr 08 21:56:20 <giggls> not exactly talking about "working" proprietary code
Apr 08 21:56:34 <Elrond> Okay, that's old.
Apr 08 21:56:56 <Elrond> So AFAIK the only people who ever saw the thing working, are the GL people, when they were at FIC.
Apr 08 21:57:05 <Elrond> GL := Global Locate.
Apr 08 21:58:09 <giggls> Elrond: I would like to see some Real World comparisons with Sirf III, because Sirf III is _very_ good
Apr 08 22:04:22 <SpeedEvil> In theory.
Apr 08 22:04:37 <SpeedEvil> We have the 'dumb' output from the chip, and this is quite sensitive.
Apr 08 22:04:50 <SpeedEvil> We can then cook it (after reverse engineering) in a GPL'd bit.
Apr 08 22:04:57 <SpeedEvil> into a position.
Apr 08 22:05:05 <SpeedEvil> And tweak that as much as we like.
Apr 08 22:05:31 <SpeedEvil> Including things like software correction of ionospheric errors by downloading a packet from a server.
Apr 08 22:05:42 <giggls> SpeedEvil: I try to figure out how suitable openmoko would be for openstreetmap maping
Apr 08 22:05:51 <SpeedEvil> very.
Apr 08 22:06:05 <SpeedEvil> The spec on the GPS is one position within 5m, within 1s of powerup.
Apr 08 22:06:16 <SpeedEvil> However.
Apr 08 22:06:34 <SpeedEvil> You can - though not with the current software do really fun stuff.
Apr 08 22:07:18 <SpeedEvil> Like recording the 'dumb' output of the chip, and then correcting the positions by downloading later - at home - the ionospheric corrections.
Apr 08 22:07:27 <SpeedEvil> which should give you well sub 2m positions.
Apr 08 22:07:35 <SpeedEvil> ideally.
Apr 08 22:07:52 <SpeedEvil> Minor annoyance is no camera of course.
Apr 08 22:08:12 <SpeedEvil> But it can do bluetooth, or direct voice logging.
Apr 08 22:08:39 <giggls> SpeedEvil: yes, but waypoints with voice recording would be very nice to have
Apr 08 22:08:44 <SpeedEvil> indeed.
Apr 08 22:09:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]]
Apr 08 22:09:25 <SpeedEvil> plugging it into a powered hub in your car, and attaching several webcams to the hub may be interesting too.
Apr 08 22:10:01 <mjr> ...and a usb hd for all that data... ;]
Apr 08 22:10:06 <Vegar> yeah, if host mode works
Apr 08 22:10:29 <mjr> also, the usb 1.1 might start getting clogged at that point
Apr 08 22:10:45 <SpeedEvil> it's not that much data if you only take a pic on triggering.
Apr 08 22:14:46 <SpeedEvil> It's not bad for a megapixelish image on demand.
Apr 08 22:15:27 <mjr> mmyah
Apr 08 22:21:03 <Elrond> Can current DSLRs be controlled via usb these days?
Apr 08 22:27:23 <SpeedEvil> I suppose so.
Apr 08 22:27:45 <SpeedEvil> Annoyingly, my cams can't.
Apr 08 22:28:28 <Elrond> My can't either.
Apr 08 22:28:44 <Elrond> It does only active its usb in a special usb mode. In which the camera does nothing else.
Apr 08 22:28:54 <SpeedEvil> Ditto.
Apr 08 22:29:17 <SpeedEvil> It's got mass storage, and another mode, which could in theory support 
Apr 08 22:29:24 <SpeedEvil> taking pics, but doesn't.
Apr 08 22:29:28 <SpeedEvil> As the camera doesn't.
Apr 08 22:29:42 <Elrond> Yeah.
Apr 08 22:32:03 <ajturner> Elrond - yeah, depends on the cam
Apr 08 22:32:15 <ajturner> Pentax released an update to the *istD* series that allows it
Apr 08 22:51:00 <Vegar> are there any possibilities of high-capacity batteries for the neo in the future?
Apr 08 22:52:11 <Elrond> Vegar - a) external batteries  b) BL-5C compatible batteries.
Apr 08 22:52:56 <SpeedEvil> It's also moderately trivial to make alternate backs with stuff in.
Apr 08 22:53:04 <SpeedEvil> Which could be insanely large batteries.
Apr 08 22:53:05 <Vegar> I was thinking about batteries from FIC
Apr 08 22:54:59 <Vegar> but BL-5C compatible batteries will do too
Apr 08 22:56:37 <Vegar> oh
Apr 08 22:57:08 <bhima> If you get a sexy Nikon, you can control it via wifi.
Apr 08 23:09:34 <MacNorth> and don't forget: http://store.makezine.com/ProductDetails.asp?ProductCode=MKMINTY&Show=ExtInfo
Apr 08 23:14:56 <Vegar> hehe
Apr 08 23:38:31 <rwhitby> morning
Apr 08 23:39:44 <Basheri> night
Apr 08 23:39:58 <Vegar> what's the aux button used for?
Apr 08 23:40:01 <Vegar> 911 calls?
Apr 08 23:40:04 <rwhitby> no
Apr 08 23:40:22 <rwhitby> anything it is programmed to do.  at the moment, the only thing that uses it is the bootloader.
Apr 08 23:40:27 <Vegar> ok
Apr 08 23:40:44 <Vegar> so there are chances it might be used to open the onscreen keyboard?
Apr 08 23:41:03 <rwhitby> that could easily be done.
Apr 08 23:41:26 <rwhitby> whether it will be or not is another matter.  mechanism is easy, policy is hard, in this case.
Apr 08 23:42:32 <dho> contextual behavior would be nice
Apr 08 23:43:04 <Vegar> or configurable behaviour
Apr 08 23:43:14 <MacNorth> mmf's make run-qemu-snapshot boots :)
Apr 09 00:05:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Current_events]] [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]]
Apr 09 00:15:00 <empty_mind> rwhitby, there ?
Apr 09 00:15:10 <rwhitby> yep, for 5 minutes
Apr 09 00:18:40 <empty_mind> rwhitby, you yesterday recomended to read something for adding your own package in openmoko distro, please point it again. I lost the saved file
Apr 09 00:18:52 <empty_mind> rwhitby, it was something D)STRO_EXTRA
Apr 09 00:19:42 <filippo[Zzzz]> why don't partecipate on eclipse dsdp/tml project?  at http://www.eclipse.org/proposals/tml/
Apr 09 00:19:42 <aloril> filippo[Zzzz]: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Apr 09 00:21:02 <rwhitby> DISTRO_EXTRA_RDEPENDS
Apr 09 00:21:24 <rwhitby> back later (off to the beach)
Apr 09 00:21:37 <empty_mind> rwhitby, in openmoko wiki or oe wiki ?
Apr 09 00:21:47 <rwhitby> It's an OE variable
Apr 09 00:21:47 <empty_mind> rwhitby, thnxs for the help
Apr 09 00:58:21 <alexbodn> hi all
Apr 09 00:58:49 <alexbodn> i have a banal question:
Apr 09 00:59:58 <alexbodn> my employer will visit hong-kong later this week. will it be possible for him to get me an openmoko phone?
Apr 09 00:59:59 <aloril> alexbodn: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Apr 09 01:00:15 <SrRaven> alex I dont think so
Apr 09 01:00:28 <SrRaven> currently the only openmoko phones out are for developers and you order them
Apr 09 01:00:47 <alexbodn> when will it be available first?
Apr 09 01:00:57 <SrRaven> september-ish
Apr 09 01:01:02 <SrRaven> read the wiki
Apr 09 01:01:19 <alexbodn> this will already be the 1.5 version?
Apr 09 01:01:32 <SrRaven> what you mean by 1.5 ?
Apr 09 01:02:17 <alexbodn> i've seen on the wiki there is a planned hw upgrade due june
Apr 09 01:02:46 <SrRaven> yes,currently we are in Phase 0
Apr 09 01:02:52 <SrRaven> than there will be phase 1
Apr 09 01:02:56 <SrRaven> and phase 1+ I think
Apr 09 01:03:04 <SrRaven> Phase 2 will be the mass market openmoko
Apr 09 01:03:42 <alexbodn> will it then have decent memory for additional files etc?
Apr 09 01:03:59 <SrRaven> read the wiki for that
Apr 09 01:04:52 <alexbodn> i see the 1.5 is about speed improvements and wifi
Apr 09 01:05:01 <MacNorth> that's a good summary
Apr 09 01:05:11 <alexbodn> :-)
Apr 09 01:06:00 <alexbodn> so i will happily wait to september. there is much to have then :)
Apr 09 01:06:15 <MacNorth> if you want it all, then sept is your best bet
Apr 09 01:06:50 <Vegar> what about graphics acceleration? is there any ETA on that?
Apr 09 01:06:55 <Vegar> this year/next year?
Apr 09 01:07:58 <MacNorth> depending on how stron you are, you can get pretty good acceleration if you throw the phone
Apr 09 01:08:08 <alexbodn> thanks again, i'm simply eager to have a really customisable and upgradable phone. my current one is a siemens me45, failing in every possible function, and not upgradeable.
Apr 09 01:09:21 <alexbodn> btw, dropping it from a high place will get it decent 9.8 m/(s*s)
Apr 09 01:09:43 * SrRaven feels like hes in school in physics class
Apr 09 01:10:07 <MacNorth> then we should integrate for the solution and move to uni phys :-P
Apr 09 01:10:26 <alexbodn> actually i graduated highschool some 21 years ago
Apr 09 01:10:50 <madwoota> you sure you've graduated to high school SrRaven ? :P
Apr 09 01:10:59 <alexbodn> and never stusied physics ever since
Apr 09 01:11:23 <SrRaven> wtf madwoota
Apr 09 01:11:26 <SrRaven> what you doin here
Apr 09 01:11:30 <alexbodn> s/stusied/studied/
Apr 09 01:11:30 <apt_> alexbodn meant: and never studied physics ever since
Apr 09 01:11:54 <alexbodn> :-)
Apr 09 01:13:23 <alexbodn> apt_: it seems your nick is following the right system to manage software, even in openmoko
Apr 09 01:14:57 <madwoota> by getting 200meg of new packages and then freeing up 20kb of diskspace ?
Apr 09 01:16:18 <alexbodn> the second value is a diff in disk volume between the older and the newer versions :)
Apr 09 01:16:37 <MacNorth> sounds a bit more efficient then
Apr 09 01:18:14 <alexbodn> as an embedded device, it would be probably a decent solution to upgrade it only when connected to a pc, for the download and cache space
Apr 09 01:19:59 <alexbodn> but apt itself works btw quite fine in low disk memory environments, by downloading and installing the packages in smaller batches
Apr 09 01:20:03 <MacNorth> om uses ipk from oe, not debian packages
Apr 09 01:20:45 <alexbodn> i don't know it in depth, but seem compatible
Apr 09 01:22:51 <MacNorth> true -- Q4 http://www.openembedded.org/wiki/OeFaq#development
Apr 09 01:24:21 <alexbodn> ;-)
Apr 09 01:25:36 <alexbodn> thanks all. i'll subscribe to the announces list to be ready at the right time :-)
Apr 09 01:26:33 <alexbodn> bye for now
Apr 09 01:26:39 <MacNorth> c ya
Apr 09 01:26:54 <alexbodn> :-)
Apr 09 02:00:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[User_talk:Technil]]
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