**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon Apr 23 02:59:57 2007 Apr 23 03:16:29 didn't want to waste space by adding space ;-) Apr 23 03:16:30 counter Apr 23 03:16:30 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 4 days 04:21:44 (11.182 +-11.2 days) (971;174) Apr 23 03:16:32 better? Apr 23 03:33:10 aloril: is there any news about wifi support? Apr 23 03:33:10 When version 1 was designed there was no sufficiently low-power WiFi chip available which has an open driver. You can attach (battery) powered USB hub to Neo1973 and then use supported WiFi USB stick. Also some model later this year probably will include WiFi. For more information see http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Apr 23 03:33:23 uh, a bot Apr 23 03:33:27 heh Apr 23 03:33:37 hehe, need to update that Apr 23 03:34:59 ppc970: one has been selected for P1.5, but which one is still secret (one of 2 options) Apr 23 03:35:00 is possible that final revision will get wifi? i´ve been reading about some progress in that field Apr 23 03:35:17 wow, cool :) Apr 23 03:36:46 i can´t wait, but my credit card says that i really need to wait Apr 23 03:39:04 wifi? Apr 23 03:39:04 P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K or Marvell 8686): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/03/25#20070325-returning_from_taipei Apr 23 03:40:01 :)~ Apr 23 03:40:06 wifi? Apr 23 03:40:06 P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K or Marvell 8686): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/03/25#20070325-returning_from_taipei http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F Apr 23 03:44:16 Hm, isn't "likely" prone to give false hope? Apr 23 03:44:29 Maybe "possibly" is more appropriate. Apr 23 03:45:56 actually at IRC it was said it sure Apr 23 03:46:57 aloril: :) Apr 23 03:47:25 Really? Apr 23 03:47:26 Nice. Apr 23 03:47:52 LaF0rge: has the wifi chip selection been made for the neo yet? Apr 23 03:47:52 cbrake: yes, for the time being Apr 23 03:47:52 LaF0rge: is this public information? Apr 23 03:47:52 cbrake: well, that the selection has been made: yes. but which one: no Apr 23 03:48:14 well.. at least this is how I interpret above ;-) Apr 23 03:48:38 so.. given above and link I think its not too strong word to say "likely" (is it?) Apr 23 03:49:06 Hm, that does put things in a different perspective. Apr 23 03:49:13 Unless brake is just a troll :D Apr 23 03:49:28 nm Apr 23 03:50:00 that was 3 days ago Apr 23 03:50:41 in any case this info will be sure when P1 is available (and discount too) so you can make then informed decision Apr 23 03:51:31 how much are they supposed to cost? Apr 23 03:55:01 aloril: can other people play with your factoids? Apr 23 03:55:06 wifi? Apr 23 03:55:06 P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K or Marvell 8686): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/03/25#20070325-returning_from_taipei http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers) Apr 23 03:55:35 well.. only for counter currently Apr 23 03:56:08 no, i mean can people change the definitions Apr 23 03:56:23 * aloril meant that and for counter only can change text Apr 23 03:56:31 k Apr 23 03:56:35 cost? Apr 23 03:56:48 cost of P1.5, haven't heard anything Apr 23 03:56:57 aloril: cost? Apr 23 03:56:59 aloril: wifi Apr 23 03:56:59 P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K or Marvell 8686): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/03/25#20070325-returning_from_taipei http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers) Apr 23 03:57:01 aloril: wifi? Apr 23 03:57:01 P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K or Marvell 8686): http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/03/25#20070325-returning_from_taipei http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers) Apr 23 03:57:10 hrmm Apr 23 03:57:12 lag? Apr 23 03:57:22 no, script Apr 23 03:57:26 heh Apr 23 03:57:29 no script for cost ;-) Apr 23 03:57:48 you wrote a separate script for each one? Apr 23 03:57:56 why not just get a bot? Apr 23 03:57:56 this is actually trigger if newbie (==nick that hasn't talked earlier) that triggers for certain keywords Apr 23 03:58:18 not really, I just listed what should trigger Apr 23 03:59:11 aren't T-Mobile and Cingular the same company now? Apr 23 03:59:14 wifi, camera trigger specific responses, other trigger faq response (if nick that has not seen earlier asks question during first 15 minutes) Apr 23 03:59:40 wasn´t cingular bought by at&t? Apr 23 03:59:57 (only once though ;-) Apr 23 04:00:01 no, cingular changed its name to at&t Apr 23 04:00:14 errr Apr 23 04:00:31 * jeremyb had no idea T-Mobile was german Apr 23 04:00:32 well, maybe novell ´change´ their name to ´microsoft´ Apr 23 04:00:34 well, it's more complicated than that Apr 23 04:00:53 haha Apr 23 04:01:00 you don´t change your name like that Apr 23 04:01:22 at&t take over Apr 23 04:01:38 or something like that Apr 23 04:05:03 oh... AT&T Inc != AT&T Corp Apr 23 04:05:23 what a mess Apr 23 04:06:01 ppc970: cingular bought at&t ws, then sbc bought at&t Apr 23 04:07:36 "Cingular Wireless was founded in 2001 as a joint venture of SBC Communications (now AT&T, Inc.), and BellSouth (which AT&T, Inc. acquired in 2006)" Apr 23 04:08:06 from wikipedia Apr 23 04:09:20 i thought it was originally houston cellular Apr 23 04:09:20 so... why're we talking about carriers? :) Apr 23 04:10:17 never even heard of houston cellular :P Apr 23 04:10:50 clearly i'm in the wrong channel Apr 23 04:12:34 heh Apr 23 04:12:43 second number in counter is number of unique requests (different nicks with underscore removed) Apr 23 04:13:20 aloril: so something like jeremyb` would be extra Apr 23 04:13:47 * jeremyb doesn't like this: Apr 23 04:13:57 Q: Does it come with a stylus? Apr 23 04:13:57 A: Yes, but there's no holder for it on the phone. Apr 23 04:14:42 Q: does it come with a slew of backup styluses and a carrying case? :P Apr 23 04:15:05 (a case just for the styluses) Apr 23 04:15:23 jeremyb: yes, but | also is not extra and also anything after - or | is not counted Apr 23 04:15:47 jeremyb: stylus is longer than phone Apr 23 04:15:59 oh Apr 23 04:16:08 you've gone iPhone style? Apr 23 04:16:08 i hope there´s no need for stylus for general use, including using the on-screen keyboard Apr 23 04:16:09 :P Apr 23 04:19:00 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Calendar]] [[Applications]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] Apr 23 05:50:13 perl-native refuses to compile even after making a symlink of page.h in /usr/include/asm/..the error it spits out is that "Missing asm/page.h"...but page.h exists..whatsup Apr 23 06:40:59 counter? Apr 23 06:41:18 counter Apr 23 06:42:02 why isnt 'counter' working Apr 23 06:42:26 ?counter Apr 23 06:42:28 counter Apr 23 06:42:34 ????????????????????? Apr 23 06:53:00 wehttamb: because the client that it runs in is not present Apr 23 07:07:26 Morgen alle. Apr 23 07:07:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[UPS_Worldwide_Express_Saver]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] Apr 23 07:08:53 Is there any solution to the qemu kernel panic issue yet? =/ Apr 23 07:20:51 Rakshasa: what's this issue? Apr 23 07:21:08 is there information about it somewhere on wiki or bugzilla? Apr 23 07:23:56 balrog-kun: I witnessed a kernel-panic on the devices as well when doing alsa-ctl, so it might not be qemu related Apr 23 07:24:15 (on marcel's bv4) Apr 23 07:26:19 balrog-kun: kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0) Apr 23 07:26:32 Seen others complain about it here too. Apr 23 07:27:38 make flash-qemu* gives lots of errors/warnings too, seemingly because the $mtdparts is not defined anywhere. Apr 23 07:31:12 koen: oh i see, i'm going to look inot it tonight Apr 23 07:31:36 Rakshasa: this sound like a timing issue with the scripts, not with qemu Apr 23 07:32:29 * balrog-kun runs flash.sh on fresh images Apr 23 07:33:58 well, it booted and mounted the rootfs ok Apr 23 07:35:18 wow, new applications :D Apr 23 07:35:51 * balrog-kun is impressed once again Apr 23 07:37:05 balrog-kun: Any idea what could run out-of-sync to cause the mtdparts not being defined? Apr 23 07:39:06 Rakshasa: almost any issue with the script will end up with mtdparts not being defined, but it may be a timing issue - the script is not very safe, what needs to be added is parsing of the responses that u-boot gives in bash as now it assumes that every command has finished after some given time Apr 23 07:39:34 Rakshasa: what's your host OS? is it anything special like a virtual machine? Apr 23 07:40:26 balrog-kun: Just a 32-bit chroot, inside 64-bit Gentoo. Apr 23 07:42:21 * balrog-kun is on a 64-bit Gentoo but no chroot Apr 23 07:42:25 i gotta run, bbl Apr 23 07:50:31 counter Apr 23 07:50:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 4 days 02:04:43 (11.087 +-11.1 days) (972;174) Apr 23 07:51:15 counter? Apr 23 07:51:15 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 4 days 02:04:22 (11.086 +-11.1 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-02); 4 months, 3 weeks, 2 days (146.173 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (973;174) Apr 23 07:53:28 morning Apr 23 07:54:26 its almost night here where i am Apr 23 07:54:27 lol Apr 23 07:54:44 ~ugt Apr 23 07:54:46 i heard ugt is Universial Greeting Time. Created in #mipslinux, it is a rule that states that whenever somebody enters an IRC channel it is always morning, and it is always late when the person leaves. The local time of any other people in the channel, including the greeter, is irrelevant. http://www.total-knowledge.com/~ilya/mips/ugt.html Apr 23 07:55:24 cool Apr 23 08:00:33 good morning Apr 23 08:01:46 another idea i've heard is to just assume gmt Apr 23 08:03:14 so good morning, i'm off to bed. ;) Apr 23 08:04:21 so how is the neo going lately? Created more apps since last time i checked? (~month ago) Apr 23 09:00:56 *phew* Qemu finally works. Apr 23 09:01:27 counter Apr 23 09:01:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 4 days 01:29:16 (11.062 +-11.1 days) (974;174) Apr 23 09:06:04 Thanks, aloril. Apr 23 09:06:31 Rakshasa: what was the problem? Apr 23 09:08:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Help:Editing]] [[User_talk:Kpr]] Apr 23 09:13:04 aloril: I dunno actually. Most probably it was caused by the 32-bit chroot. I recompiled everything in the 64bit environment and qemu just started working. Apr 23 09:47:38 morning Apr 23 09:47:43 greets Apr 23 09:51:22 ~gug Apr 23 09:51:29 gug is probably Generic Universal Greeting, used instead of the typical morning, afternoon, or evening greeting so as to disregard any timezone conficts Apr 23 09:51:37 ;) Apr 23 09:51:56 :D Apr 23 09:52:10 Rakshasa: glad to hear that it works. the script is still ugly and i'll need to fix it :/ Apr 23 09:53:38 * balrog-kun wonders if Universial is a word or a result of a typo Apr 23 10:10:53 counter Apr 23 10:10:53 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 4 days 00:54:33 (11.038 +-11.0 days) (975;174) Apr 23 10:15:48 mornin Apr 23 10:15:52 o/ Apr 23 10:16:01 Hello thar Apr 23 10:19:43 http://www.pastebin.ca/453979 Apr 23 10:26:01 aloril: counter Apr 23 10:26:01 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 4 days 00:46:59 (11.033 +-11.0 days) (976;174) Apr 23 10:26:49 hello can any body help me to solve my problem Apr 23 10:30:07 not if you don't state your problem Apr 23 10:31:55 well. we could suggest solutions at random. Apr 23 10:32:13 "reboot" Apr 23 10:32:14 i solve any kind of problem for money though it does involve a sledgehammer Apr 23 10:32:31 raynet: are you a personal injury specialist? Apr 23 10:32:56 fledermaus: i prefer injury stylist Apr 23 10:51:44 Raja, builds fine in my box Apr 23 10:53:09 looks like you're missing files in your local copy of the code Apr 23 10:53:13 try doing a fresh checkout of the code Apr 23 11:07:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[UI_Improvements]] [[Category:User_Interfaces]] [[Help:Editing]] [[Help:Contents]] [[Category:Help]] [[Category:Applications]] [[OpenMoko_Wiki_Editing_Guidelines]] [[OpenMoko:Help]] Apr 23 11:18:37 Servus Apr 23 11:18:40 counter Apr 23 11:18:41 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 4 days 00:20:39 (11.014 +-11.0 days) (977;174) Apr 23 11:19:48 I tried to test the qemu-neo1973 emulator, but when I'm starting the kernel he's reporting: Apr 23 11:20:04 Kernel panic - not syncing: VFS: Unable to mount root fs on unknown-block(0,0) Apr 23 11:20:14 Does anyone know what the solution is? Apr 23 11:22:13 file a bug? Apr 23 11:22:48 koen: many others had this problem some days before Apr 23 11:23:00 so file a bug Apr 23 11:23:06 I think the flash.sh failed somehow - should I give you the output? Apr 23 11:23:16 add the output to the bug Apr 23 11:23:20 where can I file a bug? in the bugzilla/mailinglist? Apr 23 11:23:35 the only place to file bugs is bugzilla Apr 23 11:23:57 i am not sure but i remember reading somehwere about changing some variables in flash.sh Apr 23 11:24:51 quickdev:i also had this problem, but now i dont have it Apr 23 11:25:00 Raja: what did you do? Apr 23 11:26:04 quickdev: while typing make first type make clean Apr 23 11:26:36 then do make defconfig Apr 23 11:27:11 make defconfig? Apr 23 11:27:17 after that do make bzImage or some thing u want do Apr 23 11:27:38 /mnt/new/qemu-neo1973# make defconfig Apr 23 11:27:38 make: *** No rule to make target `defconfig'. Sto Apr 23 11:27:49 ya make defconfig Apr 23 11:28:24 quickdev, wait a sec...are you having the Makefile or only qemu images? Apr 23 11:28:47 openmoko/download.sh downloaded only the images as far as i know Apr 23 11:28:47 s/Makefile/Openmoko build Apr 23 11:29:08 quickdev, ah..so i dont think make defconfig will work.. Apr 23 11:29:22 it obviously doens't ;) Apr 23 11:29:24 any make infact Apr 23 11:30:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU - How to get it running - Building the environment manually Apr 23 11:30:38 that's the instructions I used Apr 23 11:30:42 *that are Apr 23 11:31:19 quickdev, try reflashing the stuff until it works ;P...thats what i did Apr 23 11:31:43 I already did it almost 10 times in the last few days ;) Apr 23 11:38:07 the flash.sh script sucks, it needs to be fixed Apr 23 11:38:35 make defconfig is a kernel target, nothing to do with qemu Apr 23 11:44:08 ok - balrog-kun, does the process work with MokoMakefile make qemu? Apr 23 11:46:44 quickdev: it generally works, regardless of whether MokoMakefile is used Apr 23 11:47:12 but on systems with some strange timing like in virtual machines it may fail Apr 23 11:47:48 timing won't be the cause of a kernel panic, or am I wrong? Apr 23 11:48:40 the panic is because there's no rootfs and this is because it hasn't been written to flash because the script failed, due to timing Apr 23 11:49:03 ahh.. Apr 23 11:49:22 ofcourse there may be real panics too, Apr 23 11:49:26 if you supply a buggy kernel Apr 23 11:52:30 balrog-kun: How can I set the correct timing in order to get it run? Apr 23 11:54:20 i don't know what's going wrong on your computer, it always worked for me Apr 23 11:54:41 but if you issue the u-boot commands manually then it should always work Apr 23 11:56:36 * balrog-kun wishes he knew bash better Apr 23 11:59:59 balrog-kun: how can I enter into the uboot console? Apr 23 12:00:37 quickdev: it's on the first serial port Apr 23 12:01:00 add -serial stdio or press ctrl-alt-3 to go to ttyS0 Apr 23 12:03:13 balrog-kun: which wiki page describes the instructions to flash everything? Apr 23 12:06:09 quickdev: the site you looked at, and the ones linked from it Apr 23 12:06:27 e.g [[Devirginator]] and bad blocks migration Apr 23 12:07:22 * balrog-kun will be back later Apr 23 12:09:24 is there a log of this channel available? Apr 23 12:09:24 OlmLorphos: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 23 12:26:42 counter Apr 23 12:26:43 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 23:46:38 (10.991 +-11.0 days) (978;174) Apr 23 12:41:26 hey guys trying to build the qemu image but getting this http://rafb.net/p/OWfwl146.html Apr 23 12:41:34 known bug? Apr 23 12:41:42 what does bugzilla say? Apr 23 12:41:50 if it isn't in bugzilla it isn't a known bug Apr 23 12:42:30 (note that your paste doesn't contain any error message) Apr 23 12:43:01 counter Apr 23 12:43:02 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 23:38:28 (10.985 +-11.0 days) (979;174) Apr 23 12:43:03 oh lol...sorry wrong redirection operator Apr 23 12:43:45 http://rafb.net/p/xrMt6f61.html Apr 23 12:43:48 here it is Apr 23 12:44:12 Sup3rkiddo: did you look in bugzilla yet? Apr 23 12:44:51 koen, yeah..i used the op_iwmmxt_movq_wRn_M0 keyword (weird name for a function) Apr 23 12:45:36 looks like i will file a bug report..maybe work on it as well Apr 23 12:48:22 koen, what component should i specify now OE bitbake recipes/build system? Apr 23 12:48:38 ? Apr 23 12:49:29 Sup3rkiddo: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/enter_bug.cgi?product=OpenMoko Apr 23 12:50:49 koen, yeah from there in the "component" box,,,since this is related to qemu i will choose build system Apr 23 12:51:36 Sup3rkiddo: it isn't in the buildsystem or OE Apr 23 12:51:56 koen, then Host software? Apr 23 12:51:57 Applications & deps would be a better category Apr 23 12:52:08 (or pester them to add a 'qemu' ) Apr 23 12:52:24 koen, ok..i like the second idea better ;) Apr 23 13:07:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Finger]] [[Stylus]] [[Category:Widget]] [[Widgets]] [[Applications]] [[Look_%26_Feel]] Apr 23 13:08:28 counter Apr 23 13:08:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 23:25:45 (10.976 +-11.0 days) (980;174) Apr 23 13:46:12 http://pallokorva.org/moko.jpg << the colours I personally would like to see Neo1973 in... =P Apr 23 13:46:47 too dark imho Apr 23 13:49:01 dark colours show every fingerprint :( Apr 23 13:49:40 madwoota: That Apr 23 13:50:07 madwoota: That's why there are all kinds of rags to wipe the surfaces... Apr 23 13:50:26 * Rince prefers a display whjichj doesn't get scratches :) Apr 23 13:54:36 counter Apr 23 13:54:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 23:02:41 (10.960 +-11.0 days) (981;174) Apr 23 14:04:52 how realistic is the aloril counter? Apr 23 14:06:03 counter Apr 23 14:06:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 22:56:57 (10.956 +-11.0 days) (982;174) Apr 23 14:09:06 cheesy: pure guess. Apr 23 14:09:28 pure waiting here! ;) Apr 23 14:11:14 Hello everyone, does any of you know if there is (or will be) a special working group for the GPS Mapping part of OpenMoko? Apr 23 14:11:26 I would really be interested in contributing time and knowledge in that part. Apr 23 14:11:31 it's called Random Bastards from GpsDrive(tm) Apr 23 14:11:51 heh Apr 23 14:12:04 I don't think we want gpsdrive people working on that Apr 23 14:12:11 :) Apr 23 14:12:25 Time's better spent on getting maemo-mapper to work on openmoko Apr 23 14:12:28 hey, gpsdrive got accross europe, twice Apr 23 14:12:32 *me accross Apr 23 14:12:44 although its routing capabilities are nill Apr 23 14:13:03 koen, ewon> I'm not looking forward to starting a flame :) Apr 23 14:13:16 ever looked at gpsdrive code? Apr 23 14:13:19 I just wanted to know if anyone is already on the job Apr 23 14:13:19 if pda Apr 23 14:13:20 a Apr 23 14:13:23 if desktop Apr 23 14:13:24 b Apr 23 14:13:30 if something else Apr 23 14:13:30 c Apr 23 14:13:32 and on Apr 23 14:14:02 CSDexter: use maemo-mapper and you'll forget gspdrive ever existed Apr 23 14:14:10 koen: yeah, I have.. it's..... suboptimal in places Apr 23 14:16:44 koen> (do forgive my momentary ignorance) can maemo-mapper record tracks? Apr 23 14:17:00 yes Apr 23 14:17:08 that's what I use it for :) Apr 23 14:17:15 it saves directly to gpx Apr 23 14:17:45 yeah, looking at mapper it probably suits Moko's needs better than gpsdrive Apr 23 14:18:03 although I've seen gpsdrive work on stuff as lowly as a Zaurus SL-5600 Apr 23 14:18:19 I know Apr 23 14:18:31 Guess who maintained gpsdrive in OE for a while Apr 23 14:18:37 <- Apr 23 14:18:49 Hmm, (I'm fetching and parsing it's documentation as we speak), it seems GMaps-oriented. Apr 23 14:19:15 What if I want to develop support for third-party datasets? Such as a reverse-engineered Garmin MapSource (IMG) reader? Apr 23 14:20:23 they added support for openstreetmap tiles a while ago Apr 23 14:20:42 CSDexter: send a mail the the maemo-mapper mailinglist (if they have such a thing) Apr 23 14:20:58 mailing John C also works pretty well Apr 23 14:21:23 koen> I shall try that sometime later today (or tonight, timezone permitting :D ) Apr 23 14:22:04 koen> What I had in mind (as I wrote on the wiki) was a plugin architecture because even though HTTP GET is neat and sexy, not everyone will afford GPRS (or even find themselves) Apr 23 14:22:19 within the coverage area of any GPRS-capable cell while hiking. Apr 23 14:22:32 CSDexter: I have 800MB worth of cached gmaps on my SD Apr 23 14:22:37 which maemo-mapper uses Apr 23 14:22:46 So, it would be a *lot* better if I could just have the maps locally. Apr 23 14:22:46 (since I had no GPRS last week in CA) Apr 23 14:23:24 where can I find the wikipage for the phonebook? Apr 23 14:23:57 And JPEG maps doesn't sound too good either. I understand that the current Neo1973 does not have a FPU (and as such vector graphics are rather out-of-limits) Apr 23 14:24:14 but, at least for the future, at least *some* kind of vector maps should be supported Apr 23 14:24:19 CSDexter: A MapSource reader would rock Apr 23 14:24:26 Vegar> I know ;) Apr 23 14:24:37 I have quite a few of those somewhere on a CD Apr 23 14:24:55 I also know Garmin would not like it too much ... but who cares? I paid for my maps, I cand do whatever with them! Apr 23 14:25:40 much like the DVD case Apr 23 14:25:45 yep Apr 23 14:26:45 koen> Thank you for the information (I have just read that GPSDrive only supports raster as well -- too bad), I'll try and find my way from here. Apr 23 14:26:57 http://daveb.net/mapsource/ Apr 23 14:27:02 looks like someone's been working on that Apr 23 14:27:49 OMG, he reverse engineered the format by himself :( Apr 23 14:28:00 Does he not know that there is already work done on the subject Apr 23 14:28:07 and that the PDF file is available free Apr 23 14:28:09 just Google it? Apr 23 14:28:10 NIH Apr 23 14:28:11 :)) Apr 23 14:29:44 ok, I'm out of here. See you all next time. Neo1973 rocks! Apr 23 14:29:45 :D Apr 23 14:49:56 where can I find the wikipage for the phonebook? Apr 23 14:51:25 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Contacts Apr 23 14:51:28 that one? Apr 23 14:51:28 you mean openmomo-contacts? Apr 23 14:51:29 zhttp://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Contacts Apr 23 14:51:34 moko* Apr 23 14:51:39 :) Apr 23 14:52:04 thanks been looking for over 10 minutes Apr 23 15:08:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Text_Input]] Apr 23 15:08:50 counter Apr 23 15:08:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 22:25:34 (10.934 +-10.9 days) (983;174) Apr 23 15:37:28 meh i hate having a load of ideas for programms on openmoko but not having the slightest idea how to code Apr 23 15:39:45 SrRaven, maybe you can remunerate programmers which can bring your ideas to programs? :) Apr 23 15:40:31 remunerate...thats a word I dont even know :P Apr 23 15:40:47 Hmm.. Do a BASIC v2.0 port to the 'Moko... for that VIC20 coding love. Apr 23 15:41:30 (although I expect the ?onboard Python would have the modules for the phone's features) Apr 23 15:41:55 allthough I think a websites rss feed can solve that or a weekly task manager Apr 23 15:42:02 Sup3rkiddo: yes, it's a known problem Apr 23 15:42:23 iirc it's when you're compiling with gcc 4.0 or something else with gcc Apr 23 15:42:43 SrRaven: time to learn to code ;-) Apr 23 15:43:10 balrog-kun, oh...but the make automatically switches gcc32... Apr 23 15:43:49 Sup3rkiddo: so you're using gcc32? Apr 23 15:44:17 balrog-kun, wait a sec..lol..that stands for 32 bit doesnt it? Apr 23 15:44:24 i've seen this error before in someone's report (unrelated to openmoko) but don't rmeember what the solution was Apr 23 15:44:35 Sup3rkiddo: oh, heh, that's possible Apr 23 15:45:23 Sup3rkiddo, yes, gcc32 stands for 32 bit gcc Apr 23 15:45:36 balrog-kun, yup..-v confirmed it Apr 23 15:45:39 the right executable is named gcc-3.3.6 on my system Apr 23 15:45:51 Stephmw I am learning java because I have to in IT class Apr 23 15:46:00 * Sup3rkiddo emerges gcc3..and smacks himself Apr 23 15:47:02 * balrog-kun runs gentoo without multilibs so there's no 32 bit versions on anything - slightly less confusion Apr 23 15:48:28 SrRaven: good news is, there's a market for that skill... bad news is, not yet much in openmoko ;) Apr 23 15:50:49 good news is,the teacher is dumb,bad news is,I hate it Apr 23 15:54:06 Java is pretty. Too bad you can't viably make executables though. Apr 23 15:55:25 As it is, I'm up until 2am every night trying to keep up with the open-ended projects I've already got. :/ Apr 23 15:55:39 * SrRaven wonders if skype will be on openmoko somehow Apr 23 15:55:46 heh Apr 23 15:55:48 doubt it Apr 23 15:56:12 * koen hopes telepathy-gabble will have a pretty openmoko frontend soon Apr 23 15:56:13 would suck if not Apr 23 15:57:42 what is the correct method to add my own application to the final image...i kept the bb's in a folder in oe/packages..the recipe is getting parsed but not getting built..what am i missing? Apr 23 16:01:07 gtg cu Apr 23 16:07:07 counter? Apr 23 16:07:07 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 3 days 21:56:26 (10.914 +-10.9 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-03); 4 months, 3 weeks, a day (145.828 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (984;174) Apr 23 17:08:38 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Csdexter]] Apr 23 17:10:26 http://www.advogato.org/person/jserv/diary.html?start=6 # Cacao VM running on OpenMoko Apr 23 17:38:59 hi Apr 23 17:39:38 mosche Apr 23 17:39:56 hi SrRaven Apr 23 17:39:58 hi kiney Apr 23 17:40:06 hi Apr 23 17:40:07 hi pbeck Apr 23 17:43:06 Ser's Apr 23 17:45:01 serv Apr 23 18:22:17 any new speculations on the developer release date yet? ;) Apr 23 18:23:22 I'm guessing May 15 Apr 23 18:23:40 hmmkay, thanks Apr 23 18:34:04 counter? Apr 23 18:34:05 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 3 days 20:42:57 (10.863 +-10.9 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-03); 4 months, 3 weeks, a day (145.726 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (985;174) Apr 23 18:34:06 :) Apr 23 18:38:30 why would anyone want to get the developer release Apr 23 18:38:49 to develop Apr 23 18:38:50 because it seems like it may still have a few quirks to work out Apr 23 18:38:59 To develop. Apr 23 18:39:21 And because for some things it's the best thing out there. Apr 23 18:39:39 doesnt a company typically pay beta testers to try out their devices? Apr 23 18:40:06 I can write in several dozen lines of script a GPS logging and emailing application, that is not easily available in other places. Apr 23 18:40:09 rather than allowing people to buy it before it is actually released.... Apr 23 18:40:25 The idea is to get the hardware working. Apr 23 18:40:31 Then release it with beta software. Apr 23 18:40:46 The software gets updated through and past general release. Apr 23 18:41:27 then whats the benefit of consumers to buy it early, other than being able to say they got it before the actual release date when some of the hardware isnt really quite working yet Apr 23 18:41:54 For your average consumer, none. Apr 23 18:42:07 what im saying is... why buy it when a typical company may pay beta testers to try it out Apr 23 18:42:14 For developers who are interested in doing things that are not possible with existing phones, ... Apr 23 18:42:18 seems backwards Apr 23 18:42:21 Rio79, I want the developer release! Apr 23 18:42:30 And I imagine there are ca. 200 people around here who also do. Apr 23 18:42:46 * SpeedEvil has money set-aside for this release. Apr 23 18:42:46 * balrog-kun is sure Rio79 would also like one Apr 23 18:42:47 I've been holding my breath for this since about January. My face is a deep purple color now. Apr 23 18:43:16 Rio79: there are a few paid alpha testers Apr 23 18:43:17 hahah Apr 23 18:43:24 i'm not a consumer ;) Apr 23 18:43:34 yeah, id like one as well.. haha Apr 23 18:43:58 so, instead of buying one, how do you become an alpha tester Apr 23 18:44:14 Find a time-machine. Apr 23 18:44:17 * balrog-kun performs tracheatomy on paulproteus Apr 23 18:44:31 * paulproteus notices this doesn't affect him because he's still holding his breath Apr 23 18:44:31 The alpha tester group has already been picked. Apr 23 18:44:33 i'd program software for it, see & test what's missing and add a 433mhz transceiver to have a "remote control" for my home ;) Apr 23 18:44:36 you would've had to have been a demi-god in hardware, software, and embedded devices Apr 23 18:44:51 Or a 'celebrity'. Apr 23 18:45:00 Sadly, /me is neither ("yet!"). Apr 23 18:45:14 for the people that buy it early, do they get a discount once it is actually released? Apr 23 18:45:19 yes. Apr 23 18:45:33 how much of a discount Apr 23 18:45:37 dunno Apr 23 18:45:56 counter Apr 23 18:45:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 20:37:01 (10.859 +-10.9 days) (986;175) Apr 23 18:46:38 hrmm...seems like it would be better to wait to see which turns out better, the iphone or openmoko Apr 23 18:46:39 * Rince wants the counter for the mass-market device ;) Apr 23 18:46:47 Rio79: that depends on what you want to do Apr 23 18:47:02 if you want a smooth system which syncs with apple stuff, take an iPhone Apr 23 18:47:15 if you want to have _your_ apps on it (missing gps-maps :), take the Neo1973 Apr 23 18:47:34 depends on your defintion of 'better'. for some, there is no need to wait :) Apr 23 18:47:39 the biggest drawback of the iPhone IMO is prohibiting unapproved apps Apr 23 18:47:49 *nod* Apr 23 18:48:05 although that will prolly be hacked Apr 23 18:48:15 I hope it isn't. Apr 23 18:48:23 why? Apr 23 18:49:01 iphone is no option for me. it's a) far more expensive and b) won't run this special piece of software i'm developing to extend my "homezone" to entire germany, not only 5km radius Apr 23 18:49:16 It decreases the incentive to use truly Free hardware. Apr 23 18:49:25 jeremyb, Same problem as with people warezing MS Office. Apr 23 18:49:35 i guess a lot of you are programmers, no? Apr 23 18:50:05 nowai Apr 23 18:50:14 eww, programmers. Apr 23 18:50:20 ohh Apr 23 18:53:29 does the phone come "unlocked" and ready for a sim card? Apr 23 18:53:36 yes Apr 23 18:56:29 its quad band right? Apr 23 18:56:36 yep Apr 23 18:56:46 fancy Apr 23 18:57:52 there's no technical/legal reason it doesn't support cdma, right? I.e. it only supports gsm simply because that is the economical choice? Apr 23 18:58:03 CDMA is a mess. Apr 23 18:58:12 There is no widespread standard. Apr 23 18:58:25 ah Apr 23 18:58:26 Phones have to be pretty much custom made for given networks. Apr 23 18:58:40 GSM however, is global, once you've got quadband. Apr 23 18:58:50 yeah Apr 23 18:59:02 And pretty much universal outside bits of the US and japan. Apr 23 19:02:41 isn't it also so there are no cdma + gsm capable chips available? Apr 23 19:05:03 true Apr 23 19:05:15 the nokia site says that the n80 does "quadband edge/gsm + wcdma" Apr 23 19:05:27 wcdma is very different from cdma Apr 23 19:05:35 i thought someone might say that :-P> Apr 23 19:05:50 and wcdma, unlike cdma is used outside of the us and japan Apr 23 19:06:05 wcdma is a standard, like gsm Apr 23 19:06:44 I'm very new to the acronyms concerning mobile phones. I was blissfully ignorant until my old phone died a couple weeks ago Apr 23 19:06:54 :) Apr 23 19:07:19 counter Apr 23 19:07:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 20:26:20 (10.852 +-10.9 days) (987;175) Apr 23 19:07:28 http://www.umts-forum.org/ Apr 23 19:09:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Calendar]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User_talk:Kpr]] Apr 23 19:17:40 guaqua, you are wrong. wcdma is a standard, thats true. but not like gsm. gsm USES the cdma standard and umts uses the wcdma standard, but its only a part of it. Apr 23 19:18:08 oh no, i've gone cross-eyed Apr 23 19:18:32 thomasg__: you are probably right. i don't know that much about them Apr 23 19:20:37 well, (w)cdma is only the "way" how gsm or umts is transmitting data Apr 23 19:53:57 thomasg: Actually you are wrong. GSM is TDMA, UMTS/HSDPA/HSUPA are WCDMA, but not CDMA2000. Apr 23 19:55:04 GSM is 8 time slots in a 200khz block. Apr 23 19:55:49 high-rez, of course you're right. cdma is used partly in the states, but not in gsm. I was wrong Apr 23 19:56:13 GSM is used in the states. Apr 23 19:56:22 It's on the 850mhz band and the 1900mhz band in the USA. Apr 23 19:58:51 Or maybe I didn't understand what you're saying, but traditional TDMA for non 3g calls is all Time Divison, not Code Division. Apr 23 20:39:25 does someone happen to know what happened with the "dynpart" command in latest u-boot? Apr 23 20:44:10 openmoko: 03andrew * r1813 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/flash.sh: Apr 23 20:44:10 openmoko: Properly convert filesizes to hex - thanks to Marcus Smith. Apparently Apr 23 20:44:10 openmoko: some python versions' hex() adds a number width suffix. Apr 23 20:59:37 was that the fix that was needed to fix those broken qemus? Apr 23 21:03:14 Vegar: this was needed too, but there seems to be more breakage Apr 23 21:03:31 at least it doesn't panic anymore Apr 23 21:04:21 well, the panic was not qemu fault, and it may still happen Apr 23 21:09:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Help:Editing]] [[Templates]] [[Help:Contents]] [[Main_Page]] Apr 23 21:32:35 anyone running latest u-boot build on the real device? the partition layout doesn't seem to be working Apr 23 21:33:17 I flashed r1804 today, which boots into userspace Apr 23 21:33:25 (could be pure luck of course) Apr 23 21:34:33 koen: ok, then it's me Apr 23 21:34:50 if you're seeing problems, r1804 would be the culprit Apr 23 21:35:13 either that or it's only broken if you're starting with an empty u-boot environment, and works ok if you have partitions layout still set up from the previous versions (or from manufacturer) Apr 23 21:35:30 hmm Apr 23 21:35:43 the "dynamic part" thing might just cause such and effect Apr 23 21:36:14 i'm just going to hardcode the previous layout for now (instead of using "dynpart" which had some sane defaults earlier) Apr 23 21:44:07 it also stopped interpretting the "splashimage" variable on start Apr 23 21:47:49 no, sorry, this time it's me :) Apr 23 21:55:20 counter Apr 23 21:55:20 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 19:02:19 (10.793 +-10.8 days) (988;175) Apr 23 21:55:57 i hope the long wait isnt a sign of something bad happening to the project :/ Apr 23 21:59:38 heh, think it sounds like the vista delays ? :-D Apr 23 21:59:43 There's been a lot of mention of issues with screen suppliers parag0n Apr 23 22:00:55 aw :/ Apr 23 22:01:23 i've been holding on for months using a crappy old nokia... i hope something happens soon :/ Apr 23 22:01:46 openmoko: 03andrew * r1814 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/flash.sh: Hardcode a NAND partition layout to accommodate for current u-boot confusion. Apr 23 22:02:12 you're not alone parag0n :) Apr 23 22:02:14 You're not alone parag0n I'm sat waiting on a mostly dead Nokia, hoping I can afford P1 and P1.5 Apr 23 22:02:41 at this rate, p1 and p1.5 will run iinto each other :P Apr 23 22:03:03 anyway I read that some qemu-KP related fix was released... but I still experience the KP :( Apr 23 22:03:17 I'm updating with MokoMakeFile right now Apr 23 22:03:52 is there a chance that it could be related with git-1.4 (I updated it to 1.5 with Debian .deb but I'm running Ubuntu...) ? Apr 23 22:04:31 shall I start other the whole MokoMakeFile stuff ? (it took around 10 hours so I'm not really fond of this idea :)) Apr 23 22:05:19 Sufflope: it was probably the script that flashes the NAND, in connection with last u-boot update - it should be better now Apr 23 22:05:24 i don't think git was a problem Apr 23 22:05:37 1.4 was for sean on the list Apr 23 22:06:20 especially that the qemu code sits in a subversion repo Apr 23 22:14:13 OK I'll try again Apr 23 22:14:29 any lag between commits and when I can eventually get them ? Apr 23 22:15:35 i don't know how MokoMakefile works exactly - do you see it checking out the svn repository in the process? Apr 23 22:15:43 that would mean no lag Apr 23 22:17:07 I indeed see some svn update -r HEAD lines Apr 23 22:17:26 and some lines about mtn (but I know nothing about monotone) Apr 23 22:17:59 (except it takes several hours to complete the first run :D) Apr 23 22:18:57 you shouldn't need a complete run now (i think) Apr 23 22:19:07 Makefiles are about not doing complete runs :) Apr 23 22:19:15 no of course Apr 23 22:19:37 I told that because beginning with an empty working dir would mean a second first run :) Apr 23 22:19:57 :) Apr 23 22:21:21 I get a lot of signedness-like warnings about qemu-neo1973/hw/pax.h when making qemu Apr 23 22:21:40 and some other files Apr 23 22:22:20 huh? there's no hw/pax.h here Apr 23 22:23:11 oh Apr 23 22:23:23 now I get a splash at boot :) Apr 23 22:23:28 and many boot options Apr 23 22:23:35 like five? :) Apr 23 22:23:46 I had Boot and Hardware Reset (or something like this) Apr 23 22:23:56 and now 5 yeah Apr 23 22:24:08 though I had rebuilt 10 minutes ago 8-) Apr 23 22:24:22 before this last rebuild I mean Apr 23 22:27:06 coool now it's booting :) Apr 23 22:27:20 (why this Dropbear SSH server and not OpenSSH ?) Apr 23 22:28:03 now, you dev, internationalize your apps so I have some fr.po files to write, and I can at last help the project, and I'll be in heaven :D Apr 23 22:28:32 Dropbear is a tiny DNS server Sufflope. Designed for embedded devices. Apr 23 22:28:38 every PDA or phone i've ever seen uses dropbear Apr 23 22:29:53 did you mean DNS ?? Apr 23 22:30:03 Um no. Apr 23 22:30:07 SSH would be what I meant! Apr 23 22:30:10 ok :) Apr 23 22:30:23 Heh. I think I might have just run out of energy for the day =/ Apr 23 22:31:08 using it for OpenMoko ? if yes then you're forgiven :D Apr 23 22:31:52 Been rebuilding my desktop so I can start. Can't /quite/ get away with using a work laptop for FLOSS stuff on my contract. Apr 23 22:32:35 ok, sad but that makes sense :) Apr 23 22:37:18 Still I've a nice shiny Feisty install install now and at least I can safely work on FLOSS stuff with my current job, so not so bad. Apr 23 22:41:33 Night all. Apr 23 22:50:03 counter Apr 23 22:50:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 18:34:58 (10.774 +-10.8 days) (989;176) Apr 23 23:08:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[Main_Menu]] [[Footer]] [[Top_Panel]] [[Input_Method]] Apr 23 23:21:37 counter Apr 23 23:21:37 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 P1 guess: a week, 3 days 18:19:11 (10.763 +-10.8 days) (990;176) Apr 23 23:43:06 openmoko: 03mickey * r1815 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/ (4 files in 2 dirs): themes: add support for mokoscrolledpane (successor to mokodetailswindow) Apr 23 23:44:54 openmoko: 03mickey * r1816 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (7 files in 2 dirs): openmoko-libs: add MokoScrolledPane (successor to MokoDetailsWindow) Apr 23 23:45:21 openmoko: 03mickey * r1817 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/examples/ (examples.pro openmoko-stylus-demo/src/demo-main.c): examples: use MokoScrolledPane for both panes Apr 24 01:08:39 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] Apr 24 01:44:54 * CoreDump|afk laughs evily as he remote-controlls his neo via a SE K700i playing Bluetooth mouse Apr 24 01:45:55 * nnpiggy expresses suitable awe at the clever hack. Apr 24 01:54:26 * CoreDump|afk just wished neo had one or two more buttons beside 911 :\ Apr 24 01:57:39 (script) openmoko-devel: Sean Moss-Pultz and 1 other mails Apr 24 01:59:50 hmmm... *check the ML* Apr 24 02:01:39 (script) openmoko-devel: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Apr 24 02:04:29 btw, neo is an awsome ebook reader with its super-sharp screen Apr 24 02:05:09 great! Apr 24 02:05:34 do you read in portrait or landscape view with the screen? Apr 24 02:05:38 I took it to work the other day and dared anybody if he could make out a single pixel with his naked eyes. Nobody could Apr 24 02:05:48 aevin: portrait Apr 24 02:06:37 it's like reading a book, the display's that sharp. Apr 24 02:08:15 how does it feel to input text on it (so far)? Apr 24 02:08:43 you normally use the stylus with an onscreen qwerty keyboard? Apr 24 02:09:56 * CoreDump|afk makes a note to hack fbreader to allow page-turning or scrolling via touchscreen Apr 24 02:11:12 aevin: well, input is a pain really. OTOH the new on-screen keyboard is really well done Apr 24 02:11:57 I don't use it as a phone, and currently I just ssh into the beat to get things done =) Apr 24 02:13:27 i see. i guess the input methods will evolve and better fit each users preferences of the cross-section between comfort, complexity and type speed. Apr 24 02:14:07 indeed Apr 24 02:15:06 is your Neo affected by the battery drainage too? Apr 24 02:15:11 making calls and selecting contacts / smal edits are ok-ish, but larger changes would require a PC (or a small BT keyboard) Apr 24 02:15:32 aevin: yeah :\ Apr 24 02:16:24 how many hours do you get from the battery (approx.) when playing with it with the current firmware/PMU? Apr 24 02:17:08 aevin: I really never let it run downyet. There were boot-loader problems at one time which prevented a totally empty battery from charging heh Apr 24 02:17:10 i mean, only as a guesstimate. Apr 24 02:17:49 yes, I read about that. and that there were some issues with the battery level indicator as well (don't know if this has been fixe yet)... Apr 24 02:17:50 aevin: the P1 devices will have far _far_ better standby times Apr 24 02:19:15 but boy, this thing really needs more h/w buttons *sigh* Apr 24 02:19:54 what kind of buttons do you have in mind? Apr 24 02:20:31 hmm, like a navigation-cross thingyas found on many PDAs Apr 24 02:21:26 w/ a 4-axis button you could eg play games...or use an ebook reader heh Apr 24 02:21:31 we'll see about Neo+1 ;-) Apr 24 02:21:36 indeed Apr 24 02:22:13 yes, thats true. it could ease it up a bit, and perhaps make it managable with a single hand as well. Apr 24 02:22:27 +more managable Apr 24 02:22:51 yeah Apr 24 02:23:38 turning pageson the Neo w/ a K700i playing BT mouse sounds geeky but is far from optimal =D Apr 24 02:24:01 how's the scroll-wheel-tingie (bottom left corner) working out? does it feel alright with your thumb? Apr 24 02:24:20 it isn't working yet Apr 24 02:24:25 okay. **** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue Apr 24 02:59:56 2007