**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat Apr 28 02:59:56 2007 Apr 28 03:00:02 yeah, I was going to work out how to do variable whitespace in sed Apr 28 03:01:51 looks like it's just s/foo \+/foo/; Apr 28 03:03:50 \+ is one-or-more, and there's no whitespace convenience char so if you want spaces-or-tabs you have to do [ \t]\+ Apr 28 03:07:31 http://www.pastebin.ca/462179 Apr 28 03:08:22 people can also use this for make setup-machine-qemuarm too Apr 28 03:09:31 (I'll take out the pattern rule restriction) Apr 28 03:10:52 looks cool Apr 28 03:10:56 yeah, I was wondering about that Apr 28 03:11:35 openmoko: 03rwhitby * r93 10mokomakefile/trunk/Makefile: Added setup-machine-* targets to support switching builds for different MACHINE values Apr 28 03:13:28 woo, cool Apr 28 03:13:40 I can get rid of my metamakefile that does that now :) Apr 28 03:13:52 I had a MetaMokoMakefile :) Apr 28 03:16:11 pjz: thx for the original idea. Apr 28 03:16:54 3030 unique IP downloads of MokoMakefile Apr 28 03:19:11 rwhitby: np, happy to help Apr 28 03:19:32 heh - 499 IP addresses that have downloaded more than once. Apr 28 03:20:15 121 more than twice Apr 28 03:21:37 I wonder how many people have downloaded more than once, but have a changing IP address ... Apr 28 03:25:30 I dunno, I let my router handle getting my IP from the cableco :) Apr 28 03:26:20 wow, it was unhappy when I moved the directory it was in Apr 28 04:56:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hammerhead_protocol]] Apr 28 05:08:31 counter Apr 28 05:08:31 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 18:51:27 (16.786 +-3.5 days) (1035;184) Apr 28 06:32:59 counter? Apr 28 06:32:59 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 2 days 17:26:59 (16.727 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 4 days (141.227 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1036;184) Apr 28 06:56:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] Apr 28 07:07:25 hey what happened to those folks doing moko on ipaq's? Apr 28 07:11:17 rwhitby: http://dominion.kabel.utwente.nl/koen/talks/ELC2007.pdf , slide 6 thru 10 Apr 28 07:11:22 good morning Apr 28 07:15:53 hey Hopscotch Apr 28 07:26:37 how do i get the shell on the qemu build...nothing happens when i click "Terminal" from the Menu Apr 28 07:49:55 how to get which dir does the stamps would be in? for example linux-xxx.do_fetch Apr 28 08:41:48 Is it me, or is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Special:Recentchanges and http://wiki.openmoko.org/index.php?title=Special:Recentchanges&limit=25&feed=rss desync'd ? Apr 28 08:55:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973/de]] Apr 28 09:20:30 That's incredible, mtn db regenerate_caches is running now for over 12hours :( Apr 28 09:34:44 What u-boot sources do the patches apply to? Apr 28 09:38:37 --> /home/moko/openmoko/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/ Apr 28 09:38:58 GoGi, take a look at here Apr 28 09:39:09 aha Apr 28 09:39:32 does the MokoMakefile build it? Apr 28 09:39:52 I don't use MokoMakefile Apr 28 09:39:58 OE will build it Apr 28 09:40:14 ah ok Apr 28 09:40:23 maybe MokoMakefile will build it , I will try it later :) Apr 28 09:52:46 is it normal that "mtn checkout" runs for hours? Apr 28 09:54:22 or pull Apr 28 09:59:25 GoGi: yes. Apr 28 09:59:43 argh Apr 28 09:59:52 GoGi: my db reconstruct_caches runs over 12 hours now, and it's basically the same work that mtn pull does. Apr 28 10:00:21 isn Apr 28 10:00:25 isn't that a problem Apr 28 10:00:31 ? Apr 28 10:15:52 * guaqua thinks monotone is crap Apr 28 10:41:34 counter? Apr 28 10:41:34 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 weeks, 2 days 13:18:24 (16.554 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, 4 days (141.054 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1037;184) Apr 28 10:41:55 :-| Apr 28 10:53:24 GoGi: No => you need to mtn pull really really seldom. Apr 28 10:53:32 ok Apr 28 10:53:43 hi Apr 28 10:54:07 does openmoko have trac? Apr 28 10:54:19 no. bugzilla. Apr 28 10:54:28 ah. there is is. Apr 28 10:54:45 my old eyes are failing me Apr 28 10:55:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FIC/de]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]] [[Press_Coverage]] Apr 28 11:35:25 has anyone done x86 build lately? Apr 28 11:35:30 libelf seems to be failing Apr 28 11:46:44 Moo^^: What error? Apr 28 11:50:52 found the solution: http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=264 Apr 28 11:53:22 Ah okay Apr 28 11:55:04 hi, which is better to build openmoko? scratbox or open embedded? Apr 28 11:55:04 tgr_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 28 11:57:23 tgr_: only supported way is OpenEmbedded. What made you think you could use scratchbox? Apr 28 11:57:45 (sure you could build a toolchain, but the distro is much more than just a toolchain) Apr 28 11:59:14 If I compile a single package, perhaps it's better to use scratch. Apr 28 12:00:36 I'm new to the both, I fine OE is a little complicat Apr 28 12:27:37 tgr_: yes it's complicated, but to be truthful, it's still nicer than some other buildenvironments, ... Apr 28 12:35:47 counter Apr 28 12:35:47 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 11:24:11 (16.475 +-3.5 days) (1038;184) Apr 28 12:42:47 woglinde: :/ Apr 28 12:56:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[FIC/de]] Apr 28 13:05:24 dear lord Apr 28 13:05:27 i got xoo running Apr 28 13:05:30 !!! Apr 28 13:05:37 wow Apr 28 13:06:19 it really does't work. all panels and fonts are missing. but it runs. Apr 28 13:06:37 maybe I have earned a two days worth of may day holiday Apr 28 13:33:30 Just wondering, the MokoMakefile builds OpenMoko for IA32 (host) or for the Neo? Apr 28 13:36:39 yacc: Both, you can decide Apr 28 13:36:56 abraxa_: how do I decide? Apr 28 13:37:09 Guess build-img or so does the Neo build, right? Apr 28 13:38:18 abraxa_: the Wiki doesn't document more targets it seems. Apr 28 13:38:28 The MACHINE variable in build/conf/local.conf: x86, fic-gta01 is the Neo Apr 28 13:38:39 x86 is host, I mean Apr 28 13:38:54 Then just build openmoko-devel-image as usual Apr 28 13:40:18 abraxa_: do I need to run some clean-target after changing MACHINE? Apr 28 13:42:28 I don't know of any particular make target for that but I'm quite confident that a "rm -rf build/tmp" does the trick Apr 28 13:43:07 Maybe a "make setup" is in order after that but I never tried so I don't know Apr 28 13:46:15 balrog-kun: hi, are you there? Apr 28 13:47:01 Magon: hi, yep Apr 28 13:47:34 what's up? Apr 28 13:47:43 balrog-kun: i have a slight problem with your qemu Apr 28 13:47:53 it cannot find linux headers Apr 28 13:48:06 building with makefile from openmoko tree Apr 28 13:48:31 Magon: which header for example? on gentoo? Apr 28 13:48:38 and btw: do you still have photos from prague from towers ? I would like to get some Apr 28 13:48:42 on gentoo Apr 28 13:48:51 /opt/openembedded/tree/openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/usb-linux-gadget.c:24:32: error: linux/usb_gadgetfs.h: No such file or directory Apr 28 13:48:56 strange, gentoo should have all the headers Apr 28 13:48:57 oh Apr 28 13:49:04 i have it Apr 28 13:49:12 just no -I mentionted Apr 28 13:49:21 maybe i should make gadgetfs optional, Apr 28 13:49:46 older kernels didn't have this file i think, i had to copy it manually on my computer, too Apr 28 13:49:48 Just wondering, the bitbake on subsequent calls won't take that long? Apr 28 13:50:05 i have it in my kernel..but i dont know which kernel it takes Apr 28 13:50:47 /usr/include/linux should theoretically be in sync with the kernel that is running Apr 28 13:50:55 but it is never in sync on any distribution Apr 28 13:51:40 i'm gonna make ./configure autodetect gadgetfs support Apr 28 13:52:18 problem is that i have /usr/src/linux/include/linux/usb-gadgetfs.h Apr 28 13:52:19 Magon: i can post the pictures to ftp at the moment, but they are still not reoutched and segregated :/ Apr 28 13:53:08 /usr/src/linux/include/linux/ should be same contents as /usr/include/linux, but it is never the same Apr 28 13:53:19 you can just copy it over Apr 28 13:54:10 balrog-kun: can you try to pack it? i dont want to drain your outbound traffic limit Apr 28 13:54:18 balrog-kun: ok..will just copy it Apr 28 13:55:03 i don't have limits (i think), just a slow connection, i'm gonna put them on the ftp and tell you the numbers Apr 28 13:55:33 btw i passed through prague last week (just entered and left at 110 km/h) Apr 28 13:56:20 balrog-kun: where were you going? Apr 28 13:56:43 updating linux-headers Apr 28 13:57:22 i was coming back from easter in italy, retouching the pictures now :) Apr 28 13:57:32 balrog-kun: thx Apr 28 13:57:39 nice holiday probably Apr 28 14:01:00 try ftp://83.31.85.212/ , numbers 1502 to 1523 are from that tower Apr 28 14:01:38 you're on one of them, heh Apr 28 14:01:53 thx Apr 28 14:03:07 /opt/openembedded/tree/openmoko/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/target-arm/op.c:1374: error: unable to find a register to spill in class 'GENERAL_REGS' Apr 28 14:04:19 are you sure you're using gcc 3.x and don't have "-march=athlon something" in you CFLAGS? Apr 28 14:05:16 ok..checking Apr 28 14:05:54 ok..it says gcc32 Apr 28 14:07:16 people posted tips here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Talk:OpenMoko_under_QEMU Apr 28 14:07:26 ok Apr 28 14:07:33 thx Apr 28 14:07:42 np Apr 28 14:11:57 ok...it was gcc4 Apr 28 14:13:04 going to try official image and than my :-) Apr 28 14:28:40 balrog-kun: i have the photos..thx much Apr 28 14:29:51 Just wondering, what do I really need to build to develop apps for OpenMoko on the host? Apr 28 14:30:04 yacc a cross compiler Apr 28 14:30:10 oh ups Apr 28 14:30:15 a recent compiler Apr 28 14:31:10 Yes, but I mean, I somehow wonder if compiling the OE/OM version of "file" is really needed, ... Apr 28 14:32:14 Magon: ok, taking them down Apr 28 14:33:02 booting openmoko in qemu..great work balrog Apr 28 14:33:10 :) thanks Apr 28 14:33:38 now just need to finish my app, get it compiled and try Apr 28 14:34:05 do you have screenshots? :) Apr 28 14:34:09 what will the app do? Apr 28 14:34:21 no screenshots yet Apr 28 14:34:26 or you have them already Apr 28 14:34:34 okay :p Apr 28 14:34:40 i am refactoring finger wheel and toolbox Apr 28 14:35:17 daniel want them in separate app as a service Apr 28 14:35:53 and what are they now? Apr 28 14:36:37 library functions Apr 28 14:36:46 q Apr 28 14:37:16 Magon: ah okay, nice project Apr 28 14:37:30 balrog-kun: no project...fixing bug :-) Apr 28 14:51:23 Where do I get libgsmd from? Apr 28 14:54:12 yacc: It's in trunk/src/target/gsm Apr 28 14:56:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] Apr 28 14:56:52 Yeah, I already found it. Apr 28 15:01:54 hey guys Apr 28 15:02:17 any estimates when phase1 will be available? Apr 28 15:05:46 counter Apr 28 15:05:46 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 08:54:12 (16.371 +-3.5 days) (1039;185) Apr 28 15:06:08 I'd say somewhere between mid-May and early June Apr 28 15:06:24 aah, okay ;P Apr 28 15:06:24 thanks Apr 28 15:06:29 Welcome Apr 28 15:23:21 why Apr 28 15:23:22 is this phone Apr 28 15:23:29 coming out 'next month' Apr 28 15:23:32 for the last 6 months? Apr 28 15:23:32 adam_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) Apr 28 15:23:41 adam what? Apr 28 15:23:57 the developer release Apr 28 15:24:05 has been announced 'next month' since december Apr 28 15:24:57 adam read the openmoko-announce Apr 28 15:25:00 list Apr 28 15:25:03 ... Apr 28 15:25:29 counter Apr 28 15:25:29 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 2 weeks, 2 days 08:34:29 (16.357 +-3.5 days) (1040;185) Apr 28 15:26:13 Where do I look for Xoo? Apr 28 15:26:16 thanks for the pointer. Apr 28 15:27:58 yacc apt-cache search Xoo? Apr 28 15:28:26 wow. Apr 28 15:28:37 And then starting in June, things can run full speed. Apr 28 15:28:42 totally gonna get an iphone first. Apr 28 15:28:53 :/ Apr 28 15:29:01 hm then neo isnt something for you Apr 28 15:29:07 iphone ist totally closed Apr 28 15:29:11 yeah Apr 28 15:29:12 like um Apr 28 15:29:13 itv? Apr 28 15:29:14 lol Apr 28 15:29:17 no 3rd part aplication Apr 28 15:29:21 woglinde: found it, but my display is to small for it anyway. Xnest pure for yacc ;) Apr 28 15:29:46 and xoo for bison Apr 28 15:29:57 adam_: like, you can operate it in just one network? Apr 28 15:30:10 ? Apr 28 15:30:22 adam_: it's a mobile service contract with an expensive addon hardware. Apr 28 15:30:24 you referring to cingular? Apr 28 15:30:29 adam_: yeah. Apr 28 15:30:29 iphone is cingular only Apr 28 15:30:34 i mean Apr 28 15:30:46 500$ the cheapest Apr 28 15:30:59 all i said Apr 28 15:31:03 was im going to get an iphone first Apr 28 15:31:09 adam_: if you want a nice phone, ready to use, go with a Nokia E61i for example. Apr 28 15:31:12 because theyre going to hardware delay this thing until july Apr 28 15:31:13 ;p Apr 28 15:31:26 so bye for now Apr 28 15:31:35 we are going shopping Apr 28 15:31:59 mm Apr 28 15:32:04 e61 is sybmian no? Apr 28 15:32:35 anyway Apr 28 15:32:43 its just annoying Apr 28 15:32:51 when people keep telling you your toy will be out soon Apr 28 15:32:58 adam_: yes. completly loaded hardware-wise, and a S60 Symbian. Apr 28 15:32:58 and its the same soon, every time. Apr 28 15:32:58 ;p Apr 28 15:33:09 adam_: you want solid hardware? Apr 28 15:33:19 adam_: that's as hard it sounds, a feature. Apr 28 15:33:21 id be happy with a buggy one Apr 28 15:33:21 ;) Apr 28 15:33:37 adam_: Had enough mobiles that had certain misfeatures hardware wise, ... Apr 28 15:33:47 adam_: buggy hardware == you cannot fix it yourself. Apr 28 15:34:15 adam_: buggy hardware == throw away your phone. Apr 28 15:34:20 humm Apr 28 15:34:23 so they didnt boot?: Apr 28 15:34:24 ;p Apr 28 15:34:25 adam_: that's not let's reflash the thing. Apr 28 15:34:39 adam_: no, but some parts had a high failure rates, etc. Apr 28 15:34:45 something like intermittent gprs failure Apr 28 15:34:46 thats ok Apr 28 15:34:49 its a test machine ;p Apr 28 15:35:04 adam_: broken software builds are standard in the mobile world, but broken hardware is bad. Apr 28 15:35:59 well Apr 28 15:36:03 im excited still. Apr 28 15:36:19 if not a little forlorn. Apr 28 15:36:19 ;p Apr 28 15:36:28 adam_: I remember my first Communicator, which crashed everytime it faxed. I hated that Nokia service person, "Well, things do crash, why do you complain?" => "you know I sell Unix based solutions, and yes, usually every 2 years our customers need to replace mice" *shudder* Apr 28 15:36:57 * yacc did bite the sour apple, and bought an E61 as a stopgap measure, ... Apr 28 15:37:20 yeah Apr 28 15:37:23 if i get something Apr 28 15:37:27 its gonna be an 8800 Apr 28 15:37:40 by my girlfriend is strongly against me spending 1500$ on 3 phones in a 3 month period. Apr 28 15:37:41 ;p Apr 28 15:37:53 The repairshop returned his 9500 as so broken that it wouldn't allow flashing, ... Apr 28 15:38:15 Well, the E61 did cost me 180EUR on ebay. Apr 28 15:38:54 The Neo is $350 ~ EUR 250. That's not so bad. Apr 28 15:39:55 Indeed, compared to comparable phones. Apr 28 15:39:55 That makes EUR430 for me. Painful but somehow manageable, ... Apr 28 15:40:05 Not tne Nokia 1110 :) Apr 28 15:40:37 I would actually be interested in a low end OM phone too. Apr 28 15:40:56 100Mhz ish processor, black and white reflective 128*128 display or so. Apr 28 15:40:59 The Neo1973 will cost €430? That's more than I was expecting. Apr 28 15:41:16 It's 350 dollars US Apr 28 15:41:18 bhima_: My new Nokia E61 + the Neo will cost me ~430. Apr 28 15:41:20 convert from that. Apr 28 15:41:31 yacc: ahh, ok. Apr 28 15:42:23 For private users it will be about EUR 300. Depends slighty which VAT you'll catch. (Or where the European distributor will be located). Apr 28 15:44:04 Oh, Xoo fails if there is already running something on 6001 ;) Apr 28 15:47:21 Hmm, what's the right bugtracker for xoo? *wonder* Apr 28 15:47:50 Oh right it has an option for specifying the display manually. Apr 28 16:09:42 adam_: hardware problems like: bluetooth not working, subcontractor not getting required cable, high battery drain (empty in few hours, not fixable in software), loud sidetone, 15% yield on displays Apr 28 16:11:14 and every hardware revision (or waiting for parts do be OK) seems to be month wait or almost that long Apr 28 16:11:54 current hardware should be OK (knock on the wood) Apr 28 16:12:29 15% yield on displays doesn't sound very good. Apr 28 16:12:45 Is that based on dead pixel tolerance, or where they actually totally failing? Apr 28 16:13:51 No revealed details AIUI. Apr 28 16:13:52 bhima: no idea, I think problem has been fixed now (display problem is not by FIC, new product and no real alternatives) Apr 28 16:16:14 without these problems (and maybe others?) it would have been January Apr 28 16:19:03 BTW: Is there any quick intro to this "mesh networking" for the olpc? And can any wlan-chip do that? Apr 28 16:22:10 No. Apr 28 16:22:24 It's ideally done in firmware of the chip itself. Apr 28 16:22:36 AIUI - the 802.11s standard isn't published. Apr 28 16:22:56 Which is a problem. Apr 28 16:23:32 So it's a) a non-published standard as of now b) need's special firmware support ? Apr 28 16:23:40 As I understand it. Apr 28 16:23:46 I think the 802.11s guys are actually looking at what the olpc is coming up with Apr 28 16:24:18 AIUI - the firmware in the marvel chip implements the protocol as 802.11s is currently specified. Apr 28 16:25:10 OLPC I imagine is the vastly most deployed 802.11s prototype net. Apr 28 16:26:38 Yep. Apr 28 16:27:12 * aloril2 thought they do mesh on firmware to avoid using main CPU -> require less power Apr 28 16:27:12 I wonder, if it would be useful (or even possible) for the neo / ar6k. Apr 28 16:27:28 That's part of it - AIUI. Apr 28 16:28:06 aloril2 - That would suggest, that it can be done on the main cpu, if wanted to. Apr 28 16:28:43 should work Apr 28 16:28:57 if you want to do it as sort of WDS you might need hostap like features though Apr 28 16:29:52 in an adhoc sort of way it should work on any chipset i believe Apr 28 16:29:54 Hiz :) Apr 28 16:30:25 now that wifi seems to be settled i wonder about the cpu in 1.5 ;( Apr 28 16:36:14 buz - What about the guess of 244[03] ? Apr 28 16:36:28 thats the best guess yes Apr 28 16:37:01 but thats just that, a guess Apr 28 16:43:51 Well, I don't care too much for the CPU. For me battery life is more important. Apr 28 16:53:08 re Apr 28 16:55:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Games]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Current_events]] Apr 28 17:16:38 hi all i want to help with translation (italian) , i added my name on the wiki page , should i register to any mailing list??? will conversation about translation go on there? Apr 28 17:18:06 <_minime> cga, you can join the community-mailinglist, there is a regular discussion going on Apr 28 17:18:29 <_minime> cga, http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-April/thread.html Apr 28 17:18:56 _minime, thanks , may i add that " you should join the community ml if you want to talk with othe4r translators" or something likely to the wiki? Apr 28 17:19:25 i think is an important notice for newcomers like me Apr 28 17:20:51 is anyone here building OM w/ bitbake 1.8? Apr 28 17:21:25 <_minime> hm, i think there was a wiki page concerning this, hang on Apr 28 17:22:10 _minime, ok Apr 28 17:22:17 <_minime> cga, http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation Apr 28 17:23:09 minime_, that's exactely where i did add my name and would add the abovementioned notice Apr 28 17:23:17 stop changing your nick! :P Apr 28 17:23:29 brbr Apr 28 17:26:07 finally:) Apr 28 17:36:16 heh Apr 28 17:36:23 the finger-wheel _does_ work Apr 28 17:36:29 it's just inverted Apr 28 17:36:32 minime, don't you think we should have a specific ml for translators? (community would be fine for now but i think it should exist one) Apr 28 17:38:04 the traffic regarding translations on the ML is rather low. A dedicated ML would be overill at this point IMO Apr 28 17:41:27 CoreDump|home, well you are right but it is a good idea to keep for the future, don't you think? beside there are some contraddiction in the traslation pages on the wiki. one says "community mailing list" the other suggest the dev ml as a place for translators. that's why i proposed this idea. Apr 28 17:41:53 that are translation and translation howto 8in this order) Apr 28 17:42:10 right Apr 28 17:46:49 CoreDump|home, as i was saying to minime , we should add a notice on thee translation pages on which ml to join (i guess community for now) -- beside the low traffic could be good for creating a translation ml , just think of "porting" all the previous mail about translation once you have high traffic. Apr 28 17:47:20 sorry if i seem fussy but i like to be construtive Apr 28 17:47:46 you should post an email w/ your thoughts on the community list Apr 28 17:48:06 ok Apr 28 17:49:52 last but not least (and then i'll go to post it on community): think of translators that for whatever reason don't want community ml high traffic, so focusing on translators-ml would be better. Apr 28 17:50:10 * cga needs a beer Apr 28 17:50:29 cga: I hear you =) Apr 28 17:51:07 It's kinda funny. I have a cellphone with wifi, but I almost never use it. But I really want wifi on an OS phone, because I'll be able to customize its network behaviour enough for wifi to actually be _useful_. Apr 28 17:51:54 Apparently the iPhone will actually hunt and use wifi when it's there and switch back when it's not, seamlessly. Instead of current devices that always seem to use one, or the other. Apr 28 17:53:34 this could of course be hacked into the neo as well ;) Apr 28 17:53:45 Precisely! Apr 28 17:55:03 neo can be made to totally and completly own all the other "smart" phones out there. All it takes is a large community Apr 28 17:57:06 I hope so. But from the UI perspective, there really aren't many good open source projects. None of the UI people I know seem to be very interested in free software. Apr 28 17:58:10 from an UI standpoint, neo _really_ _urgently_ _needs_ a way faster CPU and gfc acceleration :\ Apr 28 17:58:20 s/gcf/gfx Apr 28 17:59:22 Which UI platform would you like to see running that can't now? Apr 28 17:59:57 its current gtk theme for one Apr 28 18:00:46 it's dog-slow right now but looking beautyful Apr 28 18:02:50 oh well, they said neo gets a CPU upgrade in P1.5 Apr 28 18:05:32 i hope they are rather going to optimise the software Apr 28 18:05:53 the CPU speed is just fine for an UI like this Apr 28 18:08:31 * bhima wants them to do both. :) Apr 28 18:11:30 whatever the bottle-neck is right now, it makes the theme unuseable :\ Apr 28 18:11:54 Actually, I wonder how will the Neo deal with multiple TCP/IP transports? E.g. one might want to use GPRS for a TCP connection despite other apps using Wifi for connectivity, ... Apr 28 18:12:45 I mean, for some longrunning TCP connections (e.g. chatting) the bandwidth is not the issue, but the long running part is important, ... Apr 28 18:12:54 isn't that just a routing issue? Apr 28 18:13:06 the interfaces would have different IPs Apr 28 18:14:06 I think the app would need to take part. Apr 28 18:14:12 well, there will be a default. Apr 28 18:14:15 Ycros: yes, but it should be supported by the framework, I'd say. Apr 28 18:14:19 And you can set up special rules. Apr 28 18:14:25 for specific hosts. Apr 28 18:14:46 The way I'd do it, GPRS would be the default for everything. Apr 28 18:15:05 Furthermore the connection managed needs to understand that there are different destinations => e.g. I might have a CSD connection that dials directly a company server, which might not provide Internet at all, ... Apr 28 18:15:08 sure Apr 28 18:15:22 And then I'd tell people writing apps that wanted short connections to special-case it. Apr 28 18:16:04 bhima: Thats a policy questions. That strongly depends upon the price of the GPRS. I'm lucky, I can get a flatrate in Germany and Austria. Apr 28 18:16:07 Is there any way you can make a specific binary behave that way? Hmm. Apr 28 18:16:38 yacc: Very true. That's the policy behaviour for "I always have GPRS and sometimes wifi" :) Apr 28 18:16:42 bhima: Other people might want to default to Wifi/BT, and only allow specific apps to use GPRS. Apr 28 18:17:17 * bhima contemplates. Apr 28 18:17:18 bhima: If you pay EUR8 per MB for GPRS, the "I always have GPRS" becomes hollow. Apr 28 18:17:37 yacc: When I go to Europe, I pay ~$20 :( Apr 28 18:17:47 I can get a satellite connection for less. Apr 28 18:17:54 I pay .08c/kb here, it sucks Apr 28 18:18:11 Here in the US I get unlimited for $20 for phones, $60 laptops. Apr 28 18:18:26 Well, Symbian displays a popup asking which connection to use, for (almost) all apps, and gives the user also the option to abort the connectivity .... Apr 28 18:18:27 one of the many reasons I'm moving to the US in August :) Apr 28 18:18:28 * bhima wonders how to implement this at the low level. Apr 28 18:18:43 here in australia I pay AUD 2.2c/KB Apr 28 18:19:06 bhima: I can get "unlimited" GPRS for EUR10 (well, it's 250MB at UMTS speed, and AFAIK one.at is not yet throttling users at all). Apr 28 18:19:32 What's the interface between my app and sockets? shared library? Apr 28 18:19:41 bhima: Well, I guess you should have a function like "openmoko_bind_client_socket_ask_user(...)"? Apr 28 18:20:04 The technical part is really not that hard, the IP address hopefully will be different. Apr 28 18:20:09 I'd like to do this totally transparently from the app's standpoint. Apr 28 18:20:12 For ease of porting. Apr 28 18:20:15 Or if it is not, you've got trouble no matter what. Apr 28 18:20:26 bhima: intercept connect(). Apr 28 18:20:46 That's something that could be hacked with LD_PRELOAD stuff, see tsocks ;) Apr 28 18:20:50 ack. I gotta run. Apr 28 18:20:59 LD_PRELOAD is used on maemo to make apps prompt for connection. Apr 28 18:21:26 bhima: it's the logical point to intercept, ... Apr 28 18:21:32 but maemo doesn't do multiple concurrent, and I haven't yet poked to understand how it works. Apr 28 18:21:52 The "easy" way to do this is to have a VPN... Apr 28 18:22:30 CoreDump|home, done =) (community ml and wiki) Apr 28 18:22:38 bhima: I know how it would work, I've done some work with LD_PRELOAD like that for debugging ;) Apr 28 18:24:08 The problem is, what happens if you've got two VPNs that both assign you 10.0.0.1 as a IP. For that you need some additional routing massaging. (Basically you would need to use iptables to mark connection from a given port, and use source based routing based on that marks to choose the right connection). Apr 28 18:26:50 a vpn would mean no need for apps to be smart. Apr 28 18:28:26 obviously not a general purpose consumer solution since you need a server Apr 28 18:28:48 bhima|n800: Well, => VPNs would mean exactly that. E.g. AFAIK, all networks assign 10/8 addresses to GPRS/UMTS clients. Now the ugly part comes here. You might need to connect to multiple APNs (Internet, MMS, other special apps). Apr 28 18:30:19 bhima|n800: The problem is, that you might have a VPN where you have no control over the server => E.g. I have multiple customers, who luckily are unlickely to fusion. Well, should the companies ever fusion, it would involve some NAT magic and/or a huge renumbering of IPs. 10/8 and 192.168/16 are popular choices, ... Apr 28 18:31:07 vpn to my home server, ipmasq out from there Apr 28 18:33:15 just to let tcp migrate across links Apr 28 18:49:18 bhima|n800: that does not work for all cases. Apr 28 18:50:07 bhima|n800: I really have cases where I need to decide on my laptop if I do work for client X or client Y at this time, because both VPNs give me a 10.0.0.x IP address, and conflicting routes, ... Apr 28 18:55:08 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation_HOWTO]] [[User:Cga]] [[Talk:Translation]] [[Wish_List]] [[Translation]] Apr 28 18:56:29 oh, I get it. right. then set up two or three ip ranges at home :) Apr 28 19:00:28 bhima|n800: that assumes that I've got a static IP at home. Or I need to use some dyndns stuff. Or worse, the IT dept needs to setup special server to support the users. Not really useful. => see email to openmoko-devel. Apr 28 19:01:44 bhima|n800: Furthermore, some router further downstream (at home) has no application context to decide if 10.0.2.19 is the database server of company A or the mail server of company B. The only thing that might know that would be app, .. Apr 28 19:02:29 oops. GPRS died. Apr 28 19:02:45 I advocate for 10.rand.rand.* at work due to conflict problems. Apr 28 19:03:13 ok, driving time. Apr 28 19:06:07