**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 01 02:59:57 2007 May 01 03:02:34 openmoko build error, http://pastebin.ca/466643 May 01 03:09:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Pj]] May 01 04:57:33 openmoko: 03laforge * r1886 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: * make pcf50606 driver irq save by local_irq_{save,restore}() calls, which fixes the 'i2c timeout' problems May 01 05:09:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] May 01 05:26:38 sitting here with my new 22" LCD display. Would rather have spent the money on a Neo May 01 05:27:51 counter May 01 05:27:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 6 days 18:32:07 (13.772 +-3.5 days) (1059;191) May 01 05:35:45 1 week 2 days to manufacturing start (counter counts last possible times, while manufacturing is at Asian time) May 01 05:40:34 it feels closer than at any earlier time ;-) May 01 05:45:53 counter? May 01 05:45:54 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 6 days 18:14:04 (13.760 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, a day (138.260 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1060;191) May 01 05:45:57 counter May 01 05:45:58 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 6 days 18:14:00 (13.760 +-3.5 days) (1061;191) May 01 07:36:04 good morning May 01 07:37:20 openmoko: 03thomas * r1887 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (ChangeLog src/contacts-omoko.c): May 01 07:37:20 openmoko: * src/contacts-omoko.c: (create_contacts_list): Change "Cell Phone" to more generic "Mobile" May 01 07:37:20 openmoko: (create_main_window): Set application name to "Contacts". Fixes bug 490. May 01 08:34:52 openmoko: 03thomas * r1888 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-contacts/ (5 files in 2 dirs): (log message trimmed) May 01 08:34:52 openmoko: * src/contacts-callbacks-ebook.c: (contacts_added_cb): May 01 08:34:52 openmoko: * src/contacts-callbacks-ui.c: (contacts_delete_cb): May 01 08:34:52 openmoko: * src/contacts-main.c: (main): May 01 08:34:52 openmoko: * src/contacts-utils.c: (contacts_string_list_as_string): May 01 08:34:56 openmoko: Merge in changes from mainline Contacts, including: May 01 08:34:58 openmoko: - Miscellaneous memory fixes May 01 08:55:50 mickey|zzZZzz: Hi, I need a little help from you. Is it possible to make non-fullscreen window? May 01 09:06:38 Magon: What for? May 01 09:12:20 yacc: parent of finger wheel May 01 09:17:10 Magon: override redirect? May 01 09:20:11 yacc: redirect of what? May 01 10:05:26 off topic question: is 1st of may a holiday in germany? May 01 10:06:05 buz: yes May 01 10:06:13 buz: good question May 01 10:06:14 pH5: thx May 01 10:06:29 that explains why i cant seem to reach anyone at the company i want to call ;) May 01 10:07:04 * koen just watched berlin being turned into a warzone on the news May 01 10:07:15 ah so it's much the same as in zurich ;) May 01 10:08:06 likewise in France May 01 10:08:20 note that in the UK it's next Monday May 01 10:09:52 does anyone have idea how to get finger wheel on screen without window under it? May 01 10:10:17 I still cannot find the way May 01 10:12:00 yeah, holidays here too May 01 10:12:02 (ru) May 01 10:12:14 holidays everywhere :-) May 01 10:13:02 actually parts of switzerland dont have holiday May 01 10:13:13 well, it doesnt seem so in london :) May 01 10:13:14 that is sad May 01 10:14:22 Ahh?! May 01 10:19:57 counter? May 01 10:19:57 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 6 days 13:40:01 (13.569 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks, a day (138.069 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1062;191) May 01 10:22:04 hi May 01 10:41:49 counter May 01 10:41:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 6 days 13:18:08 (13.554 +-3.5 days) (1063;191) May 01 10:43:48 aloril: counter May 01 10:43:48 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 6 days 13:16:09 (13.553 +-3.5 days) (1064;191) May 01 10:44:04 it's gone up :/ May 01 10:48:01 is the neo hardware capable of push to talk? May 01 10:48:42 quitte: do you live in a country were push to talk is actually used? May 01 10:49:19 yes. the same country you live in. a frind just asked. i have no idea why anyone would want that,though May 01 10:49:47 quitte: not having used it, I think the hardware doesn't need special support for it? Just a guess May 01 10:50:19 PTT afaik is mostly a software thing May 01 10:50:20 i have absolutely no idea. but i mightbe abl to convince him of implemenmting it if the hardware suppored it May 01 10:50:30 all the hardware needs is a button May 01 10:50:43 * Stephmw looks at the neo... sure enough, there's a button. May 01 10:50:59 thesoftware might be needed in the gsm module,though? May 01 10:51:34 I don't _think_ so May 01 10:51:44 but best to investigate that May 01 10:51:59 Magon: that's the way application signal the window manager should not manage the window. May 01 10:52:14 the hardware could quite easilly manage a SCO connection to a local device May 01 10:52:22 Even more interesting, is May 1st a holiday in California? May 01 10:52:27 so at least over BT talking directly should work May 01 10:52:46 quitte: go to OMA and check the spec May 01 10:53:34 OMA? May 01 10:53:43 she doest know anything about phones May 01 10:54:11 quitte: OpenMobileAlliance, there is a working group for Push To Talk May 01 10:54:40 ok. maybe after tomorrows hangover May 01 10:55:46 isn't PTT just gsm-over-gprs? May 01 10:56:03 koen: half duplex whatever this means May 01 10:56:14 yes, to paper over the huge lag May 01 10:56:38 seing it is specified at OMA, it is likely to only be a software thing May 01 10:58:04 koen: "Hey lets allow VoIP in a way people don't use it. And then we can claim people don't want VoIP" - Operators master plan May 01 10:58:13 :) May 01 10:58:30 (the neo has buttons in awkward places anyway) May 01 11:04:40 OMA is GSM over IP, right? May 01 11:04:40 bhimasleep_: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 01 11:08:20 * zecke stabs stg-it May 01 11:11:51 zecke - Didn't you already lart it yesterday? May 01 11:12:32 gsm over ip?! What happened to sip? May 01 11:17:47 Elrond: yes, and I find new things annoying me. I should checkout guilt soon May 01 11:19:01 zecke - What exactly are you working on? May 01 11:19:53 WebKit patches. As svn wc's operations so slow I have used git-svn. And to manage my patch-set I try to use stg-it. But it is worse than early quilt versions May 01 11:22:46 You create patchsets for the official webkit? May 01 11:23:01 i try to May 01 11:24:28 Have you tried to contact upstream, if they accept patches? May 01 11:24:44 (that way your local patchset will hopefully slowly shrink) May 01 11:26:07 Elrond: I can't stand people not working with upstream, and hopefully I won't commit this crime May 01 11:26:31 Okay. :-) May 01 11:27:18 I use plain git for alike things, but I'm very used to git anyway, so it's no problem for me to just change a patch in the middle. ;) May 01 11:27:55 Elrond: well, I would have difficulties in git-format-patch and git rebase on review cycles May 01 11:29:02 at least stgit promises to ease such things May 01 11:29:34 Huh, what difficulties? May 01 11:30:26 Elrond: imagine I have one file May 01 11:30:34 Elrond: and I do two actions to it. Cleanup and Extend May 01 11:30:57 In two git-commits, yeah. May 01 11:30:58 Elrond: I want to have a Cleanup and Extend patch falling out, even after review cycles May 01 11:31:31 Elrond: so I would have m commits and a chain like this a->b->c->d->e->f May 01 11:31:43 Right. May 01 11:31:44 Elrond: I want a,e,f in the Cleanup patch and b,c,d in the extend patch May 01 11:31:49 yacc: ok, but how to get GdkWindow from GtkWindow? May 01 11:32:11 Elrond: I don't know if git-format-patch ranges can do that May 01 11:32:12 Magon - C or python? In python GtkWindow.window May 01 11:32:24 C May 01 11:32:34 I cannot find it in man May 01 11:32:56 Magon - GtkWindow should have a "window" attribute. May 01 11:34:04 just screen May 01 11:34:54 at least that says GTK+ ref man May 01 11:35:06 Magon - GtkWidtet hat "window". May 01 11:35:44 zecke - git-format-patch should do it, I think. May 01 11:35:56 openmoko: 03thomas * r1889 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (6 files): openmoko-dialer: Add static declarations and remove unnecessary/unused code May 01 11:36:03 Elrond: ok, lets try May 01 11:36:41 zecke - Yep, git-format-patch does it. git-rebase uses it internally, and I use git-rebase so often. May 01 11:37:00 hi May 01 12:02:20 hrw|gone: ping May 01 12:08:02 are people happy of their phase 1 phone? May 01 12:13:04 loufoque: you're living in the future May 01 12:14:07 it's not out yet? May 01 12:15:12 hmm, only mid may May 01 12:15:19 I thought it was scheduled for april. May 01 12:17:25 it was May 01 12:30:18 but the first 150 devices should be gone out, shouldnt they? May 01 12:31:38 Magon - BTW: Why do you need to access the window of a GtkWindow? May 01 12:33:20 Elrond: I need to draw finger Wheel on screen May 01 12:33:30 and cannot figure out how to do it May 01 12:33:51 Magon - a) Use a GtkDrawingArea. b) Check out cairo May 01 12:34:18 Magon - There's a tutorial on using cairo with gtk. May 01 12:34:20 there is cairo on OpenMoko? May 01 12:35:05 Magon - http://gnomejournal.org/article/34/writing-a-widget-using-cairo-and-gtk28 May 01 12:35:08 thomasg_, seems like it May 01 12:35:28 Magon - Gtk uses cairo for most widgets now, I hear. May 01 12:36:23 slashdot talking encrypted mobile calls, made a short note on how openmoko would make a good platform for such: http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=232941&threshold=1&commentsort=0&mode=thread&pid=18938889#18939107 May 01 12:36:28 Elrond: ok..will consider that May 01 12:37:28 Magon - If you can't use cairo (which I highly doubt, OpenMoko's idea is to use desktop technology on the handset), the tutorial might still be worth looking at. May 01 12:37:52 yes thx May 01 12:38:35 I need to do exactly what openmoko-keyboard does, but i have to do it in GTK May 01 12:38:38 How to dissect a jffs2 on a desktop? May 01 12:38:50 Elrond: use mtdram May 01 12:39:00 Elrond: and then dd the jffs2 into it May 01 12:39:23 zecke|food - That's a fake-mtd device for my kernel? May 01 12:39:35 Elrond: right modinfo mtdram May 01 12:40:48 zecke|food - Is there anything, that works only in userspace? May 01 12:54:51 i'd use qemu for that but that might not be the shortest path May 01 12:55:21 * koen would look far a tarball with the same content :) May 01 12:56:04 if you knew what the content is you wouldn't have to dissect it :) May 01 13:03:34 koen - See balrog-kun ;-) May 01 13:12:13 ok, kernel 2.6.21.1 works now May 01 13:13:24 koen - What did you do? May 01 13:13:35 file a bug and wait for harald to fix it May 01 13:13:45 Ahh :) May 01 13:14:06 So the average-time-to-fix just got smaller? ;) May 01 13:14:15 sort of May 01 13:14:27 the patches got fixes, but the defconfig is broken May 01 13:14:37 so I fixed the defconfig in OE :) May 01 13:14:44 hihi ;) May 01 13:16:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage]] [[Main_Page]] May 01 13:19:16 Elrond: found a way..probaly...gtk_window_set_type_hint May 01 13:22:20 * koen gets back to testing the gps May 01 13:25:09 koen: it works now? May 01 13:25:45 koen - Let us know, what you find. :-) May 01 13:25:48 I can power it on May 01 13:27:32 is there any existsing navigation software for linux? (or specially oe?) May 01 13:27:55 maemo-mapper May 01 13:28:15 i check, thanx:) May 01 13:28:25 MetaBookfoziS - maemo-mapper (but I consider it a mess from an internal point of view), gpsdrive. May 01 13:28:39 MetaBookfoziS - Also a few others. May 01 13:28:57 uhum May 01 13:29:02 there's also the tomtom software, iirc the license on it is unknown and there's no source May 01 13:29:23 If I have too much time, a friend and I might write some python-gtk based thingy. May 01 13:29:54 koen - Did you try feeding it witht the init-sequence from the wiki? May 01 13:30:19 cool. May 01 13:32:15 Elrond: someone removed the sequence from the wiki May 01 13:32:29 koen - *arg* Why did they do that?! May 01 13:32:44 check http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol May 01 13:32:49 will it be in the diffs? May 01 13:33:44 Stephmw - It should. May 01 13:35:17 Hmm.. is there some consensus on whether encrypting voice comms will be possible? Direct access to microphone & speaker + data access would be the requirement, I guess. May 01 13:35:17 rmt2: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 01 13:35:48 fresh from the strace: May 01 13:35:53 1) "\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80\x80" May 01 13:36:19 that seems a bit repetitive :) May 01 13:36:30 It's to autobaud the UART May 01 13:36:51 2) "\xff\x0c\xfd\xc0\x00\xfc\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00\x00" May 01 13:36:52 rmt2: basically - not. May 01 13:36:53 0x80, isn't that ascii "." ? May 01 13:37:05 koen - No. May 01 13:37:09 rmt2: you have no raw access to the datastream. May 01 13:37:36 Hrmph. Mobile voice encryption is a $$$ business, it would seem. May 01 13:38:14 There are possible hacks like using data mode, which is usually very expensive, GPRS, which is hopelessly laggy, or the most insane, and probably would actually work ish: May 01 13:38:22 ASCII 8/0 is decimal 128, hex 80, octal 200, bits 10000000: meta-^@ May 01 13:38:52 A vocoder excited by a datastream, and speech recognition on the other end. May 01 13:39:01 http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/hammerhead.txt should do the trick, right? May 01 13:39:06 Apparently, you can get 1.5kbits/sec or so by this method. May 01 13:40:05 rmt2: yes May 01 13:40:09 koen - for the fist init. But you need the seconf too. :) May 01 13:40:09 SpeedEvil: Hehe. Ok.. pity, though.. I guess we always have SMS' when we need to issue death orders. :) May 01 13:40:26 SpeedEvil: yes you do May 01 13:40:33 <-- gets some icecream. :) May 01 13:40:35 encryption is very possible May 01 13:41:10 just only via GPRS May 01 13:41:11 Encryption is the trivial part. May 01 13:41:19 The hard part is the data transfer cheaply. May 01 13:41:27 Having worked at telcos, SMS' are the most sensitive to interception (and general interception for purposes of humor - you'd be surprised what a search for "anal" in the SMS queue turns up) May 01 13:41:32 But, you can do vocoder over the 1kbit+ link. May 01 13:42:15 Push to talk via GPRS should work just fine encrypted. May 01 13:42:43 you can also encrypt in the analogue domain :-) May 01 13:42:48 True. May 01 13:43:00 Has there been any luck finding a WiFi model that could be included in future versions? May 01 13:43:04 Doing that _securely_ in a manner that will survive GSM is non-trivial. May 01 13:43:07 rmt2: yes. May 01 13:43:51 Elrond: like http://www.openembedded.org/~koen/hammerhead2.txt ? May 01 13:44:03 Ah, I see.. The FAQ is useful. :-) Atheros might be it.. May 01 13:44:11 SpeedEvil: Id just do something based on time division, Im betting if a snooper is already jacked into the GSM network to that level he has probably already bugged your car and office May 01 13:48:21 XorA: the FPGA-based software radios are 'off the shelf' these days.. (Ettus' Gnuradio modems, WinRadio, etc..) They'll become more common with time.. May 01 13:48:51 baird: still none of them can realtime crack the GSM stream May 01 13:53:52 koen - Yep, hammerhead2.txt looks good. May 01 13:55:21 rmt2: IPoSMS is the solution May 01 13:55:39 Elrond: the uart seems to stay silent May 01 13:56:31 koen - You've put it into 8n1? May 01 13:57:33 Stephmw: :-P May 01 14:02:02 koen - stty -F /dev/ttyS1 raw speed 115200 -crtscts cs8 -parenb -cstopb May 01 14:02:13 koen - stty -F /dev/ttySAC1 raw speed 115200 -crtscts cs8 -parenb -cstopb May 01 14:46:41 openmoko: 03laforge * r1890 10/trunk/oe/packages/linux/linux-gta01/defconfig-2.6.21.1-fic-gta01: this is moko10, not moko8 (copy mistake) May 01 15:16:29 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] May 01 16:48:08 openmoko: 03thomas * r1891 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-outgoing.c: openmoko-dialer: Use MokoMessageDialog for window-outgoing May 01 18:49:13 counter? May 01 18:49:13 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 6 days 05:10:45 (13.216 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, 2 weeks (137.716 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1065;191) May 01 19:06:28 koen - Did you get any further with the gps? May 01 19:06:44 nope May 01 19:08:30 This thing starts to feel a bit borked. May 01 19:09:11 the gps ;) hahaaa May 01 19:11:07 if anyone has suggestions on what command to run.... May 01 19:11:45 commands* May 01 19:15:49 koen: did you see that rasterman announced his new software_16 engine for evas? May 01 19:16:13 koen: unfortunately it didn't run as fast as we want, at least on n800... May 01 19:16:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Community_Events]] May 01 19:17:00 koen: our tests showed it sould improve it a lot, more than 50%... but after integrating into the platform it was no more than 10% in most cases May 01 19:17:17 k-s: still 10% May 01 19:17:21 koen: so now we have to figure out where we're wasting time May 01 19:18:16 koen: and until we know it, he'll probably won't touch the 16bpp code... he really love the 32bpp... damn, it's highly optimized May 01 19:19:11 koen: and I have 2 python bindings ready: evas and ecore (ecore.evas too)... I'm hoping to have edje done today May 01 19:19:50 k-s: I read your mails on the bindings May 01 19:20:15 :-) May 01 20:19:20 anyone who is in Taiwan ? May 01 20:19:32 we will have a meeting next Tuesday May 01 20:19:45 Sean Moss-Pultz and Harald Welte will give a talk on openmoko May 01 20:20:10 people who is interesting to join us, please visit the link http://wiki.tossug.org/SignUp%3a2007-05 May 01 20:38:53 Just wondering, why the Neo won't have WAP nor MMS? May 01 20:39:22 WAP is just the thing of the browser, but why mms? May 01 20:39:25 who needs wap if you can have the real internet May 01 20:39:36 *nod* May 01 20:39:38 indeed May 01 20:40:05 koen: E.g. mobile ticketing systems, say the German Railways? May 01 20:40:23 yacc: there you can use pdf too May 01 20:40:41 fetch the pdf, show the 2d-barcode with that May 01 20:40:43 Rince: Well, for the PDF you need to print it. May 01 20:40:48 nmp May 01 20:40:51 no May 01 20:40:57 the pdf also contains the 2d-barcode May 01 20:41:00 Rince: I carry a mobile, but no printer on my body. May 01 20:41:04 you just zoom to the barcode May 01 20:41:15 Rince: but the pdf says that you have to print it May 01 20:41:48 zod: they don't expect mobiles with a pdf-reader ;) May 01 20:42:00 you could ask one of these guys to scan your mobile in general wether it works or not, but it shouldn't be a problem May 01 20:42:01 Rince: Well, they explicitly tell you so that the PDF is invalid if displayed on a display. May 01 20:42:26 * koen sends zod a pdf saying 'pay me €1000' May 01 20:42:39 well - I already did it once and they accepted it May 01 20:43:31 Rince: And MMS is a standard feature, and people expect you to be able to view it. May 01 20:43:41 how does the wap version work? no barcode there. May 01 20:43:57 TimRiker: there is a 2d Barcode May 01 20:44:00 TimRiker: It sends an MMS at the end of the transaction. May 01 20:44:14 in the WAP? so they want the barcode on the display there? May 01 20:44:16 yacc: well - I never needed mms except for that railway-thingie, bjut there I prefer original tickets or the printed pdf May 01 20:44:29 yacc, well if someone gets operamini running then you can use wap pages too May 01 20:44:37 or any other browser that can wap May 01 20:44:55 i think theres a thunderbird fork for pdas May 01 20:45:04 that 'd do too May 01 20:45:09 might be some wap->html gateways around that would work. May 01 20:45:11 and if you need mms then program something to accept them ;) May 01 20:45:13 minime: Not really, because Harald also claimed that it's of no importance to support different networks (WAP APN != Internet APN) ;) May 01 20:45:26 if they are open source, you could run the gateway on the phone itself. :) May 01 20:46:06 Openmoko won't support multiple concurrent network connections ;) May 01 20:46:29 yeah but i reckon most of the internet service-whatever-wap-sites don't care about your apn May 01 20:46:31 So when accessing the WAP APN, it will drop the Internet connection ;) May 01 20:46:50 minime: Only if you use the pay services of a given network operator I guess. May 01 20:46:50 ouch. that's all I have is a WAP APN. May 01 20:47:07 yacc, just whjat i wanted to say right now ;) May 01 20:47:43 Basically, some useful services are hidden inside the WAP APNs, in the private walled gardens of the network operators. May 01 20:48:01 wap.bahn.de works for me in my opera too, i just don't know whether i'd be able to purchase tickets May 01 20:48:39 ... as e.g. accessing your email without entering your account name&pw May 01 20:49:05 minime: bahn.de is an external site, so it will work via the Internet probably, but some services are provided inside these walled garden. May 01 20:49:05 your mobile service-provider-email of course... May 01 20:49:44 yacc, yeah, but just as you mentioned - mostly commercial jamba-ringtone-crap. i suppose? May 01 20:50:18 minime: And payment services. E.g. pay your cola can via your mobile and stuff. May 01 20:50:36 The point is that service providers assume that any users that wants to use it can use WAP/MMS. May 01 20:50:46 yacc, on the MMS, they want to concentrate on proper internet messaging. They have indicated that if somebody does MMS support, they'll be happy ;] May 01 20:51:08 around here payment services work via SMS generally May 01 20:51:33 but I suppose it may vary May 01 20:51:49 The only phones that don't do WAP/MMS are simple phones for simple people that want just to talk via their phones (e.g. my father-in-law). May 01 20:52:16 is that an argument? May 01 20:52:36 mjr: the point is, that this varies from country to country, from network to network. The designers of such services just assume these services to be available. May 01 20:52:38 apropos mms: i remember some statistics about half a year ago that said that about 1/10(or 1/5)th of all mms in germany contains malware :) May 01 20:53:44 counter May 01 20:53:45 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 6 days 03:06:13 (13.129 +-3.5 days) (1066;191) May 01 20:54:33 may 10th is for phase 1, not phase 1.5, right? May 01 20:54:45 minime, correct May 01 20:55:11 ;( May 01 20:55:18 mjr: So I'd consider it highly embarrasing if my dad came to me, and asked me how he can use that cool new mobile ticketing system (or whatever is currently advertised) on his new smartphone phone I recommended, ... May 01 20:55:32 hehe May 01 20:55:46 tell him its too sophisticated May 01 20:56:08 tell him to use the provider's internet ticketing system ;] May 01 20:56:43 mjr: It's the Linux problem again. It does not work with all "expected" media. With general desktop software, I cannot make his Linux PC make play ".EXE" content. But why does a Linux phone need to ignore known (if slightly uninteresting) and documented standards? May 01 20:56:58 It doesn't. May 01 20:57:03 anyway, adding wap browsing or MMS shouldn't be a huge task if one is interested, though not a small one certainly either. May 01 20:57:07 There is simply a limited development effort. May 01 20:57:16 And it's focussed on some things. May 01 20:57:18 yeah May 01 20:57:25 Same with any feature. May 01 20:57:31 mjr: Again, Harald already ruled that it's not relevant to support multiple network connections (like to the MMS/WAP apns), ... May 01 20:58:02 so give him a clean patch and change his mind ;] May 01 20:58:11 mjr: so it will not be a trivial task, because the MMS app will have to do all the heavy lifting so that it can access the MMS APN without disturbing anything. May 01 20:58:14 If you want a frogger game on openmoko, there is no especial reason why it can't happen, just supply source. May 01 20:58:27 mjr: Don't think so, I need to feed my family :( May 01 20:59:03 SpeedEvil: But if you want something that needs lowlevel support, than it will be more painful. May 01 20:59:34 Yeah. May 01 20:59:36 SpeedEvil: That's what I'm trying to communicate. Mobile phones are on multiple IP networks at the same time. May 01 20:59:46 And non-IP networks May 01 21:00:22 * SpeedEvil sighs. May 01 21:00:34 No time to work on openmoko - trying to work out how to get my car going again. May 01 21:00:43 Which may involve replacing the ECU with a DIY one. May 01 21:01:06 * mjr looks at Harald's mail on ruling multiple network connections (like to MMS/WAP apns) not relevant May 01 21:01:18 * mjr sees "So far this is not on our list of requirements." May 01 21:01:36 ECU? May 01 21:01:39 sounds like a bit less severe stance than you painted it May 01 21:01:42 Engine Control Unit. May 01 21:01:51 Tunnel vision if you ask me. But I'm sure someone will implement MMS eventually. May 01 21:02:23 Basically, I'm ripping out all of the non-functional electronics (that have the immobiliser trigggered for some reason) and replacing them with a home-rolled one. May 01 21:03:28 mjr: Yeah, not on the requirement list, and we won't have resources in the next 6 months anyway, ... May 01 21:03:44 Well, 6 months => that's after the massmarket launch. May 01 21:05:07 true, still not the same as Word of God stating that we shall not have multi-apn/WAP/MMS May 01 21:06:26 It depends on how much the dev program is taken up. May 01 21:06:33 If they get stuff shipping... May 01 21:06:49 And a thousand or two units out to interested devs... May 01 21:07:11 I mean, from your wording, I was a bit worried that Harald might actually be opposed to the idea of adding support for these for some reason, but luckily your description was a tad biased May 01 21:07:17 Clearly out of all of those, someone will try something. May 01 21:07:24 SuN, probably May 01 21:07:37 of course, easy for me to dismiss the issue as I have absolutely no use for WAP or MMS :] May 01 21:08:11 If the screens remain a problem for a couple of months... May 01 21:08:37 The funny thing is, my uncle, not tech-savvy at all, is the only person I know of that uses MMS. I've never used it, but I can imagine it May 01 21:08:44 s nice to send someone a picture or something. May 01 21:09:05 But data costs + base costs for an MMS (about 0.50 eur I think) are rather prohibitive. May 01 21:09:08 in my world, that's what the internet is for :) May 01 21:09:10 Makes more sense to just email it. May 01 21:09:32 Sadly, not a lot of people have email setup on their phone yet. May 01 21:10:29 I'm still thinking about a solution, I'd like my Maildir mail available as IMAP or just new messages as pop, without interfering with my desktop email app. May 01 21:10:36 (oh, of course there's also bluetooth when you happen to be in proximity) May 01 21:10:56 Yeah, that I use regularly. But it's a different thing. May 01 21:11:06 yes, yes it is May 01 21:11:07 For instance, my uncle would use MMS to send pictures of his home in Spain. May 01 21:11:39 * SuN transfers a MC Hammer mp4 clip to his phone to test his ffmpeg settings May 01 21:12:12 Does the touchscreen work on the ffmpeg player? May 01 21:12:12 Or can't you touch it? May 01 21:12:28 Bluetooth isn't very fast for 6MB clips, unfortunately :) May 01 21:12:28 It is somewhat like.. Napster. May 01 21:12:28 In the old ISDN days. May 01 21:12:54 I don't know, I'm only using it to convert the format. May 01 21:14:23 (trying to get something to play on Realplayer *shudder* on an EZX phone) May 01 21:18:26 mjr: biased? Well, the point is it's an infrastructure "problem", that was declared not relevant till the phone ships, ... May 01 21:19:16 mjr: well biased. But mostly because I see how relevant that kind of support is, from using my Communicator, day in day out. May 01 21:22:24 Weird. No sound on my MC Hammer clip, even though it's mp3 :) May 01 21:22:31 No hammer time :/ May 01 21:22:45 could touch that May 01 21:33:07 MacNorth: Perfect response ;D May 01 21:35:59 MC Hammer is really an icon. Too bad he's not popular anymore. May 01 21:39:27 :^) May 01 22:10:19 SuN: are there any better flash tools for ezx phones yet? May 01 22:10:31 SuN: I hatehatehate Moto's windows-based tools May 01 22:14:30 Not really, although *some* parts can be flashed by tricking the kernel flash driver into rw, after which you can simply dd stuff to it in the right format. May 01 22:14:38 It's called "flashkit" I think. May 01 22:15:33 The newer phones use RSDLite instead of that other program of which I forgot the name, but it's not necessarily better, I haven't tried it yet though. May 01 22:21:58 I've got an oldish A780 somewhere, but I put some bad version of firmware on it so it's mostly unusable right now May 01 22:22:09 Can't be fixed? May 01 22:22:19 The A780 is... quirky, from what I've heard. May 01 22:22:34 seems to be May 01 22:22:35 The E680i firmware is much better, the E6 firmware is yet a step better. May 01 22:23:14 so anyway, I'm hoping for you openezx guys to get a working open system that I can install on it so I can ignore Moto's stupid firmware May 01 22:23:25 not in a hurry or anything though May 01 22:23:33 just kind of "oh, someday that might work" May 01 22:23:47 I'm quite happy with it as a daily phone, it sucks not to have any possibility of installing linux software. May 01 22:23:52 Besides the nasty hacls. May 01 22:23:58 yeah, some nasty hacks May 01 22:24:06 Hacks, yes. May 01 22:24:08 :) May 01 22:24:52 Well, I was hoping for openezx to run on my E680, but I've had it for 2 years and it's still not really usable. May 01 22:25:16 I bought the E6 because I find the original firmware pretty solid, even compared to Symbian and Windows Mobile. May 01 22:25:21 .nod May 01 22:25:42 Even if it's probably not a very proper implementation, technically. But it just works (tm) and it has some nice touches. May 01 22:25:45 yeah, mine was pretty solid until I tried to upgrade to a version that had all the extras enabled May 01 22:26:04 and then I found that I couldn't manage to downgrade for some reason May 01 22:26:25 Weird May 01 22:27:25 Success! Hammer time, baby! May 01 22:28:56 Haha, Hammer is the man. May 01 22:30:18 Really, I wish I could dance like that. Even if it's that really cheesy 80's hiphop style. May 01 22:33:14 * balrog-kun tunes in, too May 01 22:33:23 :) May 01 23:38:01 openmoko: 03laforge * r1892 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/unsolicited.c: make CLIP/COLP numbers zero-terminated (Closes: #525) May 01 23:41:28 (script) openmoko-devel: Harald Welte Please report problems with projects.openmoko.org **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 02 02:59:56 2007