**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sat May 05 02:59:56 2007
May 05 04:13:39 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r1911 10/trunk/oe/packages/uboot/uboot-gta01_svn.bb: add local git/svn patchset revision to uboot compiled-in version info
May 05 05:34:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Wikipedia_Mirror]] [[Wish_List]]
May 05 06:30:38 <simon_> counter?
May 05 06:30:39 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 2 days 17:29:19 (9.729 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13);  4 months, a week, 4 days (134.229 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1092;194)
May 05 07:14:26 <Hopscotch> good morning
May 05 07:35:29 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]
May 05 07:37:50 <Magon> hi all
May 05 08:11:29 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea
May 05 08:13:29 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea
May 05 08:36:52 <ninHer> hi all
May 05 08:58:42 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r1912 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-s3c2440.patch: 
May 05 08:58:42 <CIA-24> openmoko: NAND boot (steppingstone) fixes for S3C244x:
May 05 08:58:42 <CIA-24> openmoko: * fix pointer increment typo
May 05 08:58:42 <CIA-24> openmoko: * fix bitshift typo
May 05 08:58:42 <CIA-24> openmoko: * check correct busy bit
May 05 09:09:52 <wansti> hey there!
May 05 09:11:06 <wansti> i'd like to get a few sounds finished this weekend...
May 05 09:14:43 <buz> counter
May 05 09:14:43 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 2 days 14:45:14 (9.615 +-3.5 days) (1093;194)
May 05 09:34:16 <pavelm> good morning, everyone!
May 05 09:34:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
May 05 09:34:30 <pavelm> (I find the late-night debate about political correctness "amusing").
May 05 09:37:32 <abraxa_> Morning, Pavel :)
May 05 09:37:51 <SpeedEvil> Has there been any news about the screen problems?
May 05 09:38:10 <SpeedEvil> The run in a few days of PCBs is quite irrelevant if there are no screens.
May 05 09:38:35 <abraxa_> Didn't Sean say they have some in stock now?
May 05 09:38:42 <abraxa_> That's what I remember
May 05 09:39:23 <pavelm> actually, screens.
May 05 09:39:27 <SpeedEvil> I only saw the 'we have 100 or so' 
May 05 09:39:37 <pavelm> I don't care if they are VGA.. but can we get something sunlight-readable?
May 05 09:40:32 <SpeedEvil> :(
May 05 09:41:03 <SpeedEvil> With non-reflective displays, you need to _really_ wind up the brightness of the backlight to see much.
May 05 09:41:29 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r1913 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (uboot-license.patch uboot-smdk2440.patch): (log message trimmed)
May 05 09:41:29 <CIA-24> openmoko: SMDK2440 support:
May 05 09:41:29 <CIA-24> openmoko: * various cosmetic fixes of smdk2440.h
May 05 09:41:29 <CIA-24> openmoko: * use first serial port for SMDK2440 (CON14 on PCB)
May 05 09:41:29 <CIA-24> openmoko: * enable hardware flow control
May 05 09:41:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: * enable FAT and ext2 support
May 05 09:41:34 <CIA-24> openmoko: * enable MMC support (still broken)
May 05 09:41:55 <SpeedEvil> Consider that at best the display absorbs 5/6ths of the light.
May 05 09:41:58 <SpeedEvil> And it's never this good.
May 05 09:42:07 <pavelm> speed: olpc gets it right :-)
May 05 09:42:40 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
May 05 09:42:50 <pavelm> nokia cellphones also have sunlight-readable displays.
May 05 09:42:51 <KragenSitaker> pavelm: are the current screens not sunlight-readable?
May 05 09:42:53 <aloril> KragenSitaker: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 05 09:43:05 <SpeedEvil> KragenSitaker: there is a bugzilla from sean saying no.
May 05 09:43:13 <KragenSitaker> aloril: thanks, but i'm reading it now
May 05 09:43:50 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: How would you qualify the sunlight readability? Is it visible shaded with hand?
May 05 09:43:53 <pavelm> I was not able to read much at sunlight. (Of course, contributing factor is that om uses realy _tiny_ fonts, which is fatal mistake for a phone, too).
May 05 09:44:00 <KragenSitaker> pavelm, SpeedEvil: that's a pretty serious drawback
May 05 09:44:12 <SpeedEvil> Most phones suffer the same though.
May 05 09:44:19 <SpeedEvil> Except black and white ones.
May 05 09:44:28 <koen> of course you can make the fonts bigger in the settingspanel
May 05 09:44:35 <koen> which some people just don't seem to get
May 05 09:44:47 <KragenSitaker> i guess i've never used a non-black-and-white phone
May 05 09:44:57 <KragenSitaker> i'm used to spending US$20 or US$30 on a cellphone
May 05 09:45:15 <pavelm> speed: Most phones suffer, but om suffers badly. I do not think shading helped.
May 05 09:45:16 <KragenSitaker> i spent US$150 back in 2001, but probably shouldn't have
May 05 09:45:35 <SpeedEvil> Black and white LCDs can trivially reflect 50% of the light - you lose half the light through a polariser.
May 05 09:45:42 <SpeedEvil> It's not quite that good of course.
May 05 09:45:47 <KragenSitaker> i made my laptop screen sunlight-readable by using 12-point bold black-on-white text
May 05 09:46:21 <SpeedEvil> Colour LCDs have horrible problems doing htis.
May 05 09:46:44 <KragenSitaker> i think that LCD that I did that with was a filterless color LCD
May 05 09:46:52 <SpeedEvil> As you've then got 2/3 of the light getting absorbed by hitting the wrong color of phosphor.
May 05 09:46:55 <KragenSitaker> it had polarizing filters but no color filters
May 05 09:47:08 <KragenSitaker> there's no phosphor in an LCD :)
May 05 09:47:14 <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
May 05 09:47:21 <SpeedEvil> s/phosphor/filter/
May 05 09:47:46 <KragenSitaker> there's no color filter in some LCDs either
May 05 09:47:48 <webjames> you could always get a large hat. but seriously laptops in the sun, very annoying
May 05 09:48:05 <KragenSitaker> my tecra 8100 used an arrangement of diffraction gratings.
May 05 09:48:34 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: have you seen olpc screen? If so, how would you compare it when backlit?
May 05 09:48:44 <SpeedEvil> Or is it backlit.
May 05 09:48:46 * SpeedEvil forgot.
May 05 09:48:59 <KragenSitaker> i've only seen the olpc screen in backlit mode :(
May 05 09:49:24 <SpeedEvil> I mean compare it backlit witht eh backlit neo screen
May 05 09:50:45 <KragenSitaker> oh hey, do you think the information that the neo1973 is quad-band GSM should maybe be in the FAQ on the Wiki?
May 05 09:54:15 <webjames> i'm having trouble writing an 'i' with the stroke recogniser
May 05 09:54:55 <balrog-kun> what word are you typing?
May 05 09:55:11 <webjames> i'm just typing abcdefghi
May 05 09:55:22 <balrog-kun> ah okay
May 05 09:55:32 <balrog-kun> sometimes you can find synonyms that don't contain an 'i'
May 05 09:55:48 <webjames> oh ok
May 05 09:55:52 <KragenSitaker> heh, common problem? :)
May 05 09:56:10 <webjames> how do you draw a space?
May 05 09:56:19 <KragenSitaker> how's battery life on these first-gen phones?
May 05 10:05:46 <pavelm> speed: Yes, I have olpc here. It is kind of low-res in color/backlight mode, but black/white daylight mode is really cool.
May 05 10:05:57 <pavelm> speed: Just using green font on black background is bad idea on olpc.
May 05 10:07:03 <KragenSitaker> pavelm: why bad idea?
May 05 10:09:35 <pavelm> kragen: Due to olpc screen constuction, it looks ugly.
May 05 10:14:38 <guaqua> whenever the processor is on it takes a lot more power
May 05 10:14:59 <KragenSitaker> can the processor turn on and off quickly?
May 05 10:15:11 <KragenSitaker> olpc is excited to have suspend/resume down to 133ms
May 05 10:15:22 <guaqua> yes, i believe so
May 05 10:15:30 <guaqua> dunno if it's like that though
May 05 10:15:59 <buz> much faster than that afaik
May 05 10:16:23 <Stephmw> some arm processors also consume less power when they're actually busy
May 05 10:16:32 <Stephmw> rather than just idle
May 05 10:16:33 * xkr47 would like a google maps widget in gtk :)
May 05 10:16:34 <buz> mind you arm cpus were designed for mobile use
May 05 10:16:40 <buz> the creepy geode in OLPC not really
May 05 10:16:45 <xkr47> that would be nice for openmoko too :)
May 05 10:16:49 <guaqua> xkr47: wouldn't mind that either
May 05 10:17:13 <Stephmw> I guess arm cpus were too expensive?
May 05 10:17:15 <guaqua> but i guess it's just a matter of coding
May 05 10:17:16 <KragenSitaker> well, this arm cpu, anyway
May 05 10:17:25 <xkr47> someone should start a project like that
May 05 10:17:29 <buz> Stephmw: try amd doesnt sell arm
May 05 10:17:31 <KragenSitaker> i don't know why the olpc picked the geode instead of an arm or three
May 05 10:17:39 <KragenSitaker> surely amd sells arm
May 05 10:17:47 <buz> i dont think so
May 05 10:17:49 <KragenSitaker> are there any cpu makers that don't?
May 05 10:17:50 <buz> alchemy is mips
May 05 10:18:17 <guaqua> xkr47: you could probably implement it through webkit and js, but it wouldn't be very efficient
May 05 10:18:18 * buz wondersa bout asus 249$ celeron notebook
May 05 10:18:54 <buz> that will run circles around olpc
May 05 10:19:14 <guaqua> buz: url to that?
May 05 10:19:21 <KragenSitaker> hmm, amd isn't listed in http://www.arm.com/community/all_partners.php?PageTitle=All%20Partners&display=7
May 05 10:19:25 <KragenSitaker> so maybe not!
May 05 10:19:46 <buz> http://feeds.arstechnica.com/~r/arstechnica/BAaf/~3/114043222/20070503-asustek-to-launch-249-classmate-pc-in-july.html
May 05 10:20:09 <buz> arm should rather be cheaper than geode
May 05 10:20:42 <buz> the geode is said to be based on a cyrix core which if true says about everything
May 05 10:21:00 <KragenSitaker> it's going to be pretty difficult to run circles around olpc in some ways --- always-on mesh networking, instant-on, diskless operation, dual-mode display, waterproof keyboard
May 05 10:21:07 <KragenSitaker> nontoxic backlight and batteries
May 05 10:21:14 <KragenSitaker> time will tell if those actually matter
May 05 10:21:38 <buz> i prefer a plain 800*480 lcd to a weird display that runs a 400*300 in color mode
May 05 10:21:44 <KragenSitaker> i think the geode is pretty different from the 5x86; for one thing, iirc, it emulates the x86 in software
May 05 10:21:53 <KragenSitaker> 400x300?
May 05 10:21:57 <buz> emulate x86? huuuh?
May 05 10:22:17 <KragenSitaker> the native instruction set is something weird, like with the transmeta chips
May 05 10:22:24 <buz> KragenSitaker: in color mode, you lose 2 out of 3 pixels
May 05 10:22:38 <buz> ah well, thats true for about any x86 cpu these days
May 05 10:22:44 <guaqua> olpc is pretty progressive and i hope they'll be able to get some of that experimental hardware to the mainstream aswell
May 05 10:22:55 <KragenSitaker> buz: yeah, but the color resolution is 1200x900 iirc
May 05 10:23:02 <buz> no thats black and white
May 05 10:23:21 <KragenSitaker> oh, so it's only 400x900 in color? that doesn't seem right from what i've seen
May 05 10:23:30 <KragenSitaker> buz: no, most of them translate the x86 opcodes into micro-ops in hardware
May 05 10:23:41 <pavelm> buz: You'd have to see the display. It is cool.
May 05 10:23:48 <buz> well the difference hardware/software is quite blurred at that point
May 05 10:24:05 <KragenSitaker> not really!
May 05 10:24:17 <pavelm> kragen: see olpc website. Basically no arm cpus at time of olpc design could do FPU.
May 05 10:24:18 <buz> n. Mode 2 is high resolution 1200x900 black and white reflective sunlight readable with 0.2W MAX power consumption.
May 05 10:24:29 <KragenSitaker> pavelm: oh, thanks, that makes a lot of sense
May 05 10:24:51 <KragenSitaker> buz: ok, thanks; so what's the color res then?
May 05 10:24:58 <KragenSitaker> it looked like 800x600 when i saw it
May 05 10:25:17 <pavelm> if bw is 1200x900, color will be 600x450
May 05 10:25:37 <buz> well i find conflicting info about color
May 05 10:25:42 <KragenSitaker> pavelm: i thought it only lost 2/3 res in color mode, not 3/4
May 05 10:25:43 <buz> anything from 400x300 to 800x600
May 05 10:26:03 <KragenSitaker> i just mean it looked like 800x600 --- not that i think that's what it was
May 05 10:26:15 <buz> KragenSitaker: on 7" its not easy to tell
May 05 10:26:30 <KragenSitaker> no, and i didn't spend that much time playing with it
May 05 10:26:32 <buz> friend of mine has a 7" libretto that runs at 1280*720
May 05 10:26:36 <buz> you cant see pixels
May 05 10:26:56 <buz> but realistically, you cant type on the thing, either
May 05 10:26:58 <pavelm> kragen: Ok, I'm not really sure.
May 05 10:27:00 <buz> and i have small hands
May 05 10:27:02 <balrog-kun> well, who needs pixels!
May 05 10:27:11 <balrog-kun> we don't need no stinking pixels
May 05 10:27:33 <KragenSitaker> buz: i had a hard time typing on the olpc too, which i think is partly a result of it being designed for six-year-olds. and i do not have small hands
May 05 10:28:03 <buz> well obviously you would have. 7" is just not very much ;)
May 05 10:28:09 <SpeedEvil> The geode has some interesting power saving features.
May 05 10:28:20 <SpeedEvil> For example, it has hardware framebuffer compression.
May 05 10:28:31 <SpeedEvil> To reduce RAM bandwidth and hence RAM power needed.
May 05 10:28:39 <KragenSitaker> that's cool
May 05 10:29:58 <KragenSitaker> pavelm: i don't understand why FP performance is so important though
May 05 10:30:44 <SpeedEvil> It reads an uncompressed line from RAM, then compresses it to a buffer (and writes to the display) if the line stays untouched, it's read from the buffer. If it's dirtied, the next time it's read uncompressed and recompressed again.
May 05 10:33:01 <abraxa_> KragenSitaker: My guess is that they chose geode so Windows can run on it.
May 05 10:33:05 <abraxa_> Windows doesn't run on ARM.
May 05 10:33:19 <balrog-kun> some versions do
May 05 10:33:41 <abraxa_> Some do? Oh, I didn't know that.
May 05 10:33:52 <Paavo_> Win CE
May 05 10:33:54 <balrog-kun> the Windows CE on iPaqs
May 05 10:33:56 <pH5> windows mobile does, but that's a completely different system
May 05 10:33:56 <balrog-kun> there are also MIPS and alpha builds
May 05 10:34:05 <abraxa_> And yeah, you can tell that I'm quite bitter about the OLPC + Microsoft marriage.
May 05 10:34:09 <KragenSitaker> abraxa_: i don't think so --- if that were the case, they wouldn't hvae designed it originally for the geode lx700, which is way too slow to run windows well
May 05 10:34:20 <KragenSitaker> abraxa_: did you read jim gettys's post on the matter?
May 05 10:34:35 <abraxa_> Who is that? (that should answer the question)
May 05 10:34:55 <KragenSitaker> here, read this.  you'll feel a lot better. http://www.gettysfamily.org/wordpress/?p=34
May 05 10:35:41 <abraxa_> Thanks
May 05 10:36:46 <pavelm> kragen: Maybe they want to play mpeg or something.
May 05 10:37:16 <KragenSitaker> pavelm: oh, aren't there integer-only mpeg decoders?
May 05 10:37:41 <pavelm> kragen: Not sure. But I believe that's why they did it. (Writing int-only decoders is perceived hard).
May 05 10:41:22 <abraxa_> KragenSitaker: Actually I'm a fanatic anti-Microsoft zealot and this article doesn't make me feel better at all because it'll allow Microsoft to use the OPLC platform to stretch its virtual monopoly out to countries where computers weren't widely available before.
May 05 10:43:19 <koen> you'd want fixed-point decoders, not integer decoders
May 05 10:43:56 <KragenSitaker> koen: can you elaborate?  how does mpeg compression work?
May 05 10:44:16 <koen> you need some precision after the comma
May 05 10:44:18 <KragenSitaker> well, anyway, openmoko is really exciting, and i'm looking forward to trying out dozens of new UIs on a neo1973
May 05 10:50:17 <pavelm> koen: Yep, you are right. I was told they are still hard to write, for all that multimedia formats around.
May 05 10:51:06 <KragenSitaker> you do fixed-point math with integer math instructions, though, and e.g. a fixed-point add is an integer add
May 05 10:51:27 <KragenSitaker> while a fixed-point multiply may be as complicated as an integer multiply followed by a bit shift
May 05 10:51:44 <KragenSitaker> so when it comes to choices of CPU, it's a distinction without a difference
May 05 10:52:29 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea
May 05 10:52:47 <SpeedEvil> 'hard to write' may more equal 'i have to write it, not compile it' though.
May 05 10:53:28 <KragenSitaker> (i may not know much about mpeg, but i do know a bit about fixed-point math :)
May 05 10:54:10 <pavelm> speed: Yep, that is probably very precise.
May 05 10:54:39 <SpeedEvil> Is there an 'strace' for x11 events?
May 05 10:55:38 <zecke> SpeedEvil: something similiar
May 05 10:56:07 <KragenSitaker> well, there is ltrace, but i assume you want a protocol intermediary
May 05 10:56:13 <SpeedEvil> Basically.
May 05 10:56:25 <SpeedEvil> I'd like something like strace, but for X calls.
May 05 10:57:15 <SpeedEvil> Trying to work out why mplayer is moving its window to the middle of the screen, which is annoying.
May 05 10:57:25 <koen> SpeedEvil: xscope?
May 05 10:58:04 <koen> SpeedEvil: http://blogs.sun.com/alanc/entry/xscope
May 05 10:58:43 <pavelm> Ok, bye for now
May 05 10:58:47 <SpeedEvil> Thanks.
May 05 11:46:37 <Borzo> Hi there...is there someone?
May 05 11:46:37 <aloril> Borzo: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 05 11:59:45 <thomasg_> Borzo, well, there are 222 people
May 05 12:04:46 <SpeedEvil> Some are bots.
May 05 12:06:00 <Borzo> ok... I found all i need in the faqs
May 05 12:06:11 <Borzo> thanks anyway
May 05 12:26:37 <abraxa_> Now that was a rather... odd.. visitor
May 05 12:34:12 <xkr47> abraxa_, :D
May 05 12:34:25 <xkr47> abraxa_, there must be something wrong with the FAQ
May 05 12:34:34 <xkr47> maybe it scared him/her away at the instant :P
May 05 12:35:25 <woglinde> counter
May 05 12:35:25 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 2 days 11:24:33 (9.475 +-3.5 days) (1094;194)
May 05 12:35:27 <KragenSitaker> xkr47: maybe it just answered the question ;)
May 05 12:35:37 <SpeedEvil> Aha - the FAQ is perfect now! :)
May 05 12:35:53 <xkr47> :)
May 05 12:36:32 <xkr47> 1094;194 = ?
May 05 12:59:36 <buz> maybe the faq links to goatse
May 05 13:04:51 <CoreDump|home> IIRC the original goatse domain was sold a few weeks ago. Good riddance
May 05 13:14:03 <abraxa_> We should make it link to tubgirl then
May 05 13:24:27 * SpeedEvil ponders lanyard hole art.
May 05 13:31:33 <abraxa_> Art made of holes?
May 05 13:31:55 <abraxa_> I wonder if it's been done before.
May 05 13:39:44 <SpeedEvil> I was referring to the earlier mentioned image, around the lanyard attach hole in the neo.
May 05 13:44:16 <abraxa_> Oh
May 05 14:09:34 <dotmef> counter
May 05 14:09:34 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: a week, 2 days 09:50:23 (9.410 +-3.5 days) (1095;194)
May 05 14:50:51 <DukeOfURL> is freenode running today?
May 05 14:53:56 <CoreDump|home> well....I would think so as this channel is hosted by freenode...
May 05 15:05:48 <DukeOfURL> well...your individual node could by availablle but the rest of the node network down, as happened yesterday
May 05 15:06:03 <DukeOfURL> s/rest/others/
May 05 15:06:03 <apt> DukeOfURL meant: well...your individual node could by availablle but the others of the node network down, as happened yesterday
May 05 15:06:12 <koen> splitnode
May 05 15:07:06 <DukeOfURL> apt is a bot?
May 05 15:07:28 <DukeOfURL> s/bot/robot/
May 05 15:07:38 <apt> DukeOfURL meant: apt is a robot?
May 05 15:07:56 <DukeOfURL> s/robot/non human/
May 05 15:08:22 <DukeOfURL> cute
May 05 15:16:37 <CoreDump|home> more like bloody annoying ;)
May 05 15:23:33 <DukeOfURL> does apt run on every channel or just this one?
May 05 15:23:48 <xkr47> just this one
May 05 15:24:14 * CoreDump|home somehow doubts that;)
May 05 15:30:22 <koen> ~apt
May 05 15:30:34 <koen> apt: who are you?
May 05 15:30:34 <apt> hmm... apt is the debian package manager and nothing to do with ibot, infobot, jbot or purl
May 05 15:30:39 <apt> koen: I think you lost me on that one
May 05 15:33:48 <webjames> counter?
May 05 15:33:49 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 2 days 08:26:09 (9.351 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13);  4 months, a week, 3 days (133.851 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1096;194)
May 05 15:34:29 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Disassembling_Neo1973]] [[Buying_Interest_List]]
May 05 17:34:26 <rob_w> how about the new phase 0 units with the hardware fix , anything in sight ?
May 05 17:34:54 <abraxa_> Nope
May 05 17:36:08 <rob_w> thx
May 05 17:46:16 <SrRaven> !counter
May 05 17:46:50 <serzholino> counter?
May 05 17:46:50 <aloril> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; a week, 2 days 06:13:07 (9.259 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13);  4 months, a week, 3 days (133.759 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1097;195)
May 05 17:51:51 <abraxa_> So quiet today...
May 05 17:52:54 <thresh> everyone's getting drunk
May 05 17:52:55 <SrRaven> everyones drunk
May 05 17:53:05 * SrRaven has found a twin in tresh
May 05 17:53:07 <thresh> :D
May 05 17:53:11 <thresh> t'h'resh
May 05 17:56:28 <abraxa_> Just because it's saturday or is today a special day and I'm not aware of it? ;)
May 05 17:58:53 <pjz> heya abraxa_ 
May 05 17:59:03 <abraxa_> Hewwos
May 05 17:59:15 * pjz got x86 openmoko stuff running... sort of
May 05 17:59:20 <abraxa_> Ohh nice
May 05 17:59:25 <rob_w> abraxa_,  saturday is a good enough reason for me 
May 05 17:59:27 <abraxa_> What's working/not working?
May 05 17:59:45 <pjz> ** (contacts:24109): WARNING **: Pixbuf theme: Cannot load pixmap file /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkhpaned-handle.png: Couldn't recognize the image file format for file '/usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkhpaned-handle.png'
May 05 18:00:47 <pjz> also /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/mokoicons:13: Unable to locate image file in pixmap_path: "openmoko-action-button-address-icon.png"
May 05 18:00:58 <abraxa_> Hm, I didn't see those before...
May 05 18:01:05 <pjz> that last one is puzzling because that file is in the same directory as the mokoicons file
May 05 18:03:05 <pjz> I was wondering if it could be some kind of library issue
May 05 18:03:22 <pjz> due to differing lib versions on the host vs target
May 05 18:07:50 <abraxa_> How did  you run the app?
May 05 18:51:42 <pjz> like it says at http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Openmoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo
May 05 19:11:44 <Moo^^> pjz: check hwo to get working with Xerk stuff
May 05 19:11:54 <Moo^^> you need to run pango and gtk icon scripts
May 05 19:12:30 <webjames> Hey
May 05 19:36:28 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
May 05 19:45:56 <pjz> Moo^^: cool, thanks
May 05 19:46:10 <pjz> I also switched to using Xephyr from Xoo
May 05 20:13:18 <balrog-kun> yesh! i'm logged on the (virtual) Neo over network
May 05 20:13:23 <Moo^^> pjz: Please edit Xoo article and add reference to Xephyr at the beginning of it :)
May 05 20:22:12 <pjz> balrog-kun: woo! under qemu?
May 05 20:29:15 <balrog-kun> pjz: yep, and my PC sees a Neo connected to the USB port
May 05 20:29:37 <balrog-kun> (while there isn't any - just checked :P )
May 05 20:30:02 <pjz> balrog-kun: very very cool!
May 05 20:30:28 <roh> ah... so the usb-gadget stuff is working?
May 05 20:30:39 <KragenSitaker> i have another kind of dumb question that isn't in the FAQ.  if you pop out the SIM from your current phone and stick it in the Neo1973, is your carrier aware that you've changed phones, and therefore in a position to block it if they don't like the Neo1973?
May 05 20:30:42 <pjz> balrog-kun: svn commit! push out that patch!
May 05 20:30:53 <SpeedEvil> yes.
May 05 20:30:54 <roh> i've tried a qemu-build yesterday... thats new, isn't it?
May 05 20:31:02 <SpeedEvil> They can.
May 05 20:31:08 <SpeedEvil> At least one carrier will.
May 05 20:31:15 <SpeedEvil> '3' in the UK.
May 05 20:31:24 <balrog-kun> pjz: yes, i will, but it needs a major clean-up first
May 05 20:31:39 <SpeedEvil> Who will ban your SIM if you're not using a phone that can work on 3G.
May 05 20:31:46 <balrog-kun> roh: seems to work finally :)
May 05 20:32:13 <roh> balrog-kun how does it connect to my host-pc usbstack?
May 05 20:32:22 <roh> special driver of some kind?
May 05 20:32:24 <KragenSitaker> SpeedEvil: huh, interesting.  so basically any old GSM phone will cause problems with '3'?
May 05 20:32:32 <SpeedEvil> Eventually.
May 05 20:32:56 <SpeedEvil> Tehy pay roaming charges to allow their users to use another operators GSM network when out of range.
May 05 20:32:57 <KragenSitaker> that is, any GSM phone that is old
May 05 20:33:10 <SpeedEvil> So it costs them money.
May 05 20:33:13 <balrog-kun> roh: it connects to the "dummy_uhc" HUB (in Device Drivers -> USB support -> USB Gadget Support)
May 05 20:33:17 <KragenSitaker> right
May 05 20:33:30 <balrog-kun> roh: to connect to this hub it uses gadgetfs which is the userspace api
May 05 20:33:46 <roh> balrog-kun ah i see. is there any documentation yet?
May 05 20:34:00 <balrog-kun> roh: not yet
May 05 20:34:21 <balrog-kun> roh: if you mean documentation for qemu - the kernel side is there since linux 2.5 i think
May 05 20:34:42 <roh> hm. no dummy_uhc here (feisty)
May 05 20:35:25 <roh> uuuh. they do not compile that one by default *sigh*
May 05 20:36:03 <roh> seems i should tell ben collins we will need it in the future ;=)
May 05 20:36:52 <balrog-kun> roh: i don't think anyone at all besides the original author used this module, until now
May 05 20:37:23 <roh> *g*
May 05 20:37:26 <balrog-kun> it's pretty untested, and if qemu messes something up and writes e.g. a bad packet size, it will kill the host kernel
May 05 20:37:45 <balrog-kun> although being very careful it is functional
May 05 20:39:27 <roh> balrog-kun so we should think of a way of building the module for the host kernel out of tree for now?
May 05 20:41:44 <balrog-kun> roh: personally i don't think it's too big an effort for a user, going to /usr/src/linux launching menuconfig and rebuilding
May 05 20:42:09 <balrog-kun> but maybe MokoMakefile could do something like that for the user, if rwhitby thinks it's convenient
May 05 20:42:39 <roh> balrog-kun it is. most of the users use distro supplied kernels (even i am) with a lot of custom patches from the distro which are not that easy to replicate (restricted modules and stuff)
May 05 20:43:00 <balrog-kun> roh: it's pretty much like the tun/tap networking in qemu - you need a module for that and most users have no problems building the module
May 05 20:43:28 <roh> balrog-kun tun-tap is supplied with every distro for ages and was also build out-of-tree before
May 05 20:43:46 <balrog-kun> roh: ah, i see
May 05 20:43:59 <balrog-kun> as i use Gentoo, i would have no idea
May 05 20:44:03 <roh> linuxtv does the same and overwrites the overlapping distro supplied modules on install
May 05 20:44:18 <roh> gentoo is propably the last distro where users regularly build kernels on their own
May 05 20:44:19 <roh>  ;)
May 05 20:44:36 <balrog-kun> honsetly i hadn't heard of tun-tap before i used qemu
May 05 20:44:55 <koen> that's why debian (and OE based distros) have packaged kernel
May 05 20:45:14 <koen> an extra modules is just a <foo> install kernel-module-blah away
May 05 20:45:58 <balrog-kun> and i assume dummy_hcd is not shipped normally?
May 05 20:46:09 <roh> koen if its not really used and quite untested i think we will be better off with our own local copy and building out-of-tree if the module is not there yet
May 05 20:46:33 <roh> balrog-kun i have never heard of it before and do linux since 2.0.3x ;)
May 05 20:46:46 <balrog-kun> roh: that would have the advantage that we could ship a modified version of the driver
May 05 20:46:56 <roh> as far as i can see neither ubuntu nor debian have it atm
May 05 20:46:57 <koen> if the user has to do anything more than "look sheepish" or "click OK" it goes wrong in practice
May 05 20:46:58 <balrog-kun> there's a lot of space for improvement in gadgetfs
May 05 20:47:31 <roh> balrog-kun exactly. and improve/bugfix it till its ready for bcollins and others to select in distro kernels by default
May 05 20:47:35 <koen> e.g. "reading error message" and "reading release notes" are unattainable goals
May 05 20:47:42 <koen> (from years of experience)
May 05 20:47:56 <SpeedEvil> IMO, that's a bit harsh.
May 05 20:48:11 <SpeedEvil> Users will usually read error messages if they are under three words long.
May 05 20:48:21 <roh> balrog-kun we can easyly check if its already there and a recent enough image before building it out of tree and warn the user
May 05 20:48:31 <balrog-kun> koen: fortunately most users only want the emulator too see the UI and the people who want to log into it over ssh are in majority the hackers
May 05 20:49:03 <balrog-kun> roh: i think that may be a good idea, although it would be much better in MokoMakefile
May 05 20:49:04 <koen> balrog-kun: lucky bastard ;)
May 05 20:49:13 <balrog-kun> :)
May 05 20:49:38 <roh> balrog-kun i wouln't say that. without access to a console via ssh or serial its pretty useless to me. i used the real thing, even if its slower only because of that
May 05 20:50:26 <balrog-kun> i used a terminal emulator and the on-screen keyboard until now if i wanted to, say, reveiew the dmesg
May 05 20:50:32 <roh> balrog-kun yes. do a makefile which does the out of treebuilding and checking of the version as well as calling it and warning the user should go into mokomakefile
May 05 21:35:47 <thresh> what are the main maillists of openmoko?
May 05 21:36:04 <thresh> currently i'm on -community, but hmm, almost nothing of development and stuff
May 05 21:36:27 <CoreDump|home> http://lists.openmoko.org/mailman/listinfo/
May 05 21:36:29 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Disassembling_Neo1973]]
May 05 21:36:57 <thresh> CoreDump|home: riight.
May 05 21:37:46 <thresh> everything's pretty dead it seems except devel ones
May 05 21:38:10 <CoreDump|home> community has the most traffic AFAIK
May 05 21:38:29 <CoreDump|home> I personally wonder where the _real_ devel list is ;)
May 05 21:38:32 <thresh> :)
May 05 21:38:55 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - probably hidden on irc. ;)
May 05 21:39:03 <CoreDump|home> probably
May 05 21:39:06 <CoreDump|home> !pester mickey|bbl 
May 05 21:39:08 <cdbot2> mickey|bbl : Are we there yet? .. Are we there yet? .. Are we there yet?
May 05 21:39:10 <CoreDump|home> =)
May 05 21:42:25 <thresh> :)
May 05 23:49:24 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03andrew * r1914 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (6 files in 2 dirs): 
May 05 23:49:24 <CIA-24> openmoko: Implement S3C2410A USB Slave controller registered as a USB gadget.
May 05 23:49:24 <CIA-24> openmoko: Make usb-gadget endpoints synchronous independently of each other.
May 05 23:49:24 <CIA-24> openmoko: Don't use always the configuration 0 - a monitor interface will be needed later for choosing the desired slave configuration.
May 06 00:56:05 <darkNiGHTS> so, is the $350 price point solid?
May 06 00:56:05 <aloril> darkNiGHTS: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 06 00:56:17 <abraxa_> Yep, just add shipping and handling
May 06 00:56:37 <darkNiGHTS> hmm, i might get one, it seems like a lot of money to spend on a phone though
May 06 00:56:54 <darkNiGHTS> i think i'll wait until some software is developed for it to consider it more to see if its really worth it
May 06 00:57:02 <abraxa_> Sure, that's fine
May 06 00:57:11 <darkNiGHTS> what is the processor comparable to?
May 06 00:57:13 <abraxa_> With phase 2 you'll have WiFi anyway
May 06 00:57:19 <darkNiGHTS> cool
May 06 00:57:55 <darkNiGHTS> is it about as fast as most pocket PCs today?
May 06 00:57:57 <abraxa_> Comparable? People mentioned that it'd be comparable to a Pentium 100 but I'm tempted to assume that it's faster than that
May 06 00:58:26 <darkNiGHTS> hmm, okay
May 06 00:59:07 <darkNiGHTS> okay, i gotta go back to homework now, thanks for the help :P
May 06 00:59:15 <abraxa_> Drop by whenever you want
May 06 00:59:18 <abraxa_> Enjoy ;3
May 06 00:59:29 <darkNiGHTS> okay, sounds good, i'll be sure to keep up to date with this
May 06 01:11:28 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Finger text input idea
May 06 01:35:28 <aloril> (script) openmoko-devel: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> inwheel version 1, and new algorithm idea
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun May 06 02:59:56 2007