**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 08 02:59:57 2007 May 08 03:19:41 openmoko: 03laforge * r1925 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (4 files): May 08 03:19:41 openmoko: add unfinished code for May 08 03:19:41 openmoko: * GTA02v1 support May 08 03:19:41 openmoko: * S3C2443 support May 08 03:19:41 openmoko: * SMDK2443 support May 08 03:27:13 poffy: that will be known when its possible to buy P1 May 08 03:43:28 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Advanced_End-user]] [[Basic_End-user]] [[Main_Page]] [[Running_OpenMoko_on_PC]] May 08 03:59:24 openmoko: 03laforge * r1926 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-backlight.patch: May 08 03:59:24 openmoko: * fix GTA01 backlight driver on 2.6.21 kernels May 08 03:59:24 openmoko: (BACKLIGHT_DEVICE has been replaced by BACKLIGHT_CLASS_DEVICE) May 08 04:50:50 openmoko: 03laforge * r1927 10/trunk/src/host/devirginator/environment.in: mount root-fs as read-only when booting from SD (since our default init script expects it read-only to be able to do fsck before mounting it read-write) May 08 05:26:02 counter May 08 05:26:03 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 6 days 18:33:55 (6.774 +-3.5 days) (1112;198) May 08 05:42:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] May 08 07:13:55 good morning May 08 07:14:43 moroning May 08 07:15:55 morning May 08 07:16:03 ello :) May 08 07:52:03 hmm. just had a look at the s3c2443 manual. very nice. I hope that if it gets used they won't let any features of it be unused. May 08 07:57:48 hi May 08 08:31:14 diffs? May 08 08:31:17 quitte_ May 08 08:39:00 SpeedEvil: cam interface. ddr ram. cf/ata interface. usb2 device mode. May 08 08:41:39 oh and pccard. May 08 08:43:53 Well. May 08 08:44:05 I _really_ doubt pccard, cf/ata will be used. May 08 08:44:21 USB2 device mode only. May 08 08:44:52 s/./?/ May 08 08:44:52 SpeedEvil meant: USB2 device mode only? May 08 08:46:02 apparently device mode only; bummer May 08 08:46:10 :/ May 08 08:46:30 wonder if it's even high-speed May 08 08:46:33 usb "2" May 08 08:46:41 hmm why not cf? May 08 08:46:42 could be full-speed, too May 08 08:46:48 CF is rather large. May 08 08:46:50 drath, yeah May 08 08:47:25 Especially once you take into account the size of the socket, the ejection button, and the cover for the outside slot. May 08 08:47:26 i dont mind if most ofthe cf card goes beyond the phones case. May 08 08:47:38 The controller supports both High and Full speed mode. May 08 08:47:42 And CF is nowadays on the _fast_ decline. May 08 08:47:43 from 2443 UM May 08 08:48:06 drath, ok. Well, still a bother that high speed host isn't May 08 08:48:36 As in prices going up not down in general. May 08 08:48:40 yeah, but do you really need HS host on a mobile? May 08 08:48:50 drath: Sometimes. May 08 08:48:55 heh, when? May 08 08:48:56 Plug into a USB hard drie. May 08 08:49:09 Plug into a nice USB2 webcam. May 08 08:49:17 usb2 device mode? May 08 08:50:03 it is not a usb2 hci, but can be a usb2 device May 08 08:57:01 2 days to go until manufacturing starts, announce list is still quiet May 08 08:57:55 weird bot May 08 08:58:03 Not a bot. May 08 08:58:06 aloril, in Unix tradition, that must mean everything's going swell May 08 08:58:15 mjr: hehe May 08 08:58:26 quitte_: cyborg ;-) May 08 08:58:31 heh May 08 08:58:51 ah May 08 08:58:58 * hads crosses his fingers until manufacturing starts May 08 08:59:55 * aloril wonders if there will be pre-order and if, then how much before May 08 09:03:19 maybe they first want to see how manufacturing and QA goes May 08 09:19:16 openmoko: 03laforge * r1928 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/gta01-backlight.patch: * make backlight driver compile with 2.6.21 backlight API changes May 08 09:22:58 * aloril ponders how soon first run will sell out May 08 09:25:06 at once? May 08 09:25:47 * aloril hopes he is awake when it becomes available May 08 09:25:54 I hope there will be the white/orange option. I like those colors May 08 09:25:59 there's gonne be *buzz* here May 08 09:26:04 I want the black one May 08 09:26:11 white/orange for me too May 08 09:26:13 silver/black May 08 09:26:43 I'm sure the ppl here will notice quite quickly when they can be ordered May 08 09:26:45 probably openmoko.com changes first, then announce mailing list (unless there is non order stuff in announce list) May 08 09:28:33 within 15 minutes of openmoko.com changing (script) should announce it here (hopefully no bugs in it), also announce mails should be announced here too, so should not take long before buzz starts here ;-) May 08 09:29:16 counter May 08 09:29:16 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 6 days 14:30:42 (6.605 +-3.5 days) (1113;198) May 08 09:31:00 is wince stll an option? May 08 09:31:54 quitte_: I suspect not (unless somebody else does it) May 08 09:32:14 quitte_: it was planned, but I think they dropped it at some point May 08 09:34:08 hmm i'm not sure that is good. might have helped getting my family and grandparents get one too and lt hem decide by direct comparison that opnmoko is better May 08 09:34:22 quitte_: hehe May 08 09:35:12 what is this hole in the bottom of the phone good for? seems to be wasted space to me. May 08 09:35:21 close it and put cf there ;) May 08 09:35:24 once we get up to a point where the community is content with thet operating system - there's no match :) May 08 09:36:44 oh there will be complaints. latest idiocy i was faced with was "I want a screensaver to slideshow my photos - windows does that - windows is better" May 08 09:36:49 quitte_: lanyard hole ;-) May 08 09:37:06 "screensaver" May 08 09:37:08 to convince such morons it has to do _everything_ ce does and more May 08 09:37:19 no matter how useless that ce feature seems May 08 09:37:21 quitte_: ce crashed every 5 minutes May 08 09:37:30 so om has to crash more often May 08 09:37:30 I don't think we want to do that ;) May 08 09:37:36 running screensaver on a cell phone :D May 08 09:37:37 koen: But we can! May 08 09:37:46 it's just so ridiculous May 08 09:37:48 quitte_: oh, have you tried other way around: "can win(ce) do this?" May 08 09:37:49 * SpeedEvil gets coding. May 08 09:37:54 you keep it in your pocket May 08 09:38:08 Screensaver on a black and white LCD isn't so insane. May 08 09:38:14 As it uses almost no power. May 08 09:38:36 On a colour phone, it's going to take the battery life down to a few hours. May 08 09:38:43 aloril: it was on a desktop. insalled compiz and asked can xp do that. now a lot of apps dont work properly but once the worms were out the can... May 08 09:40:26 has anyone tried scummvm with monkey island 3,yet? May 08 09:42:15 * * * * * /usr/local/bin/crash #crash content: dd if=/dev/urandom of=/dev/mem May 08 09:42:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] May 08 09:42:19 should work ;-) May 08 09:44:50 im curious to see the power management in action. I have never seen s3 actually work. so i still expect that to create quite some craashes May 08 09:47:54 kensington style lanyard hole should do the trick. and it's way more space efficient. May 08 09:54:57 quitte_: The antenna is in that loop, otherwise I guess it's just a design choice May 08 09:57:43 CM yes. but thats the gsm antenna, isn't it? it's huge. almost all space of the hole and the antenna could be used for something else. May 08 09:58:22 otoh it's great to have the antenna asfar away from the brain as possible May 08 09:58:23 Sure. I think they wanted it oval to look different May 08 09:58:23 Smaller the antenna, poorer GSM performance. May 08 09:58:40 Shorter battery life. May 08 09:58:58 what is the black thing of the antenna? just plastic? May 08 09:59:02 yes May 08 09:59:14 The head absorbs a lot of the radiosignal, so better reception too when it's far away May 08 09:59:16 And no, you can't trivially ram circuitry in there. May 08 09:59:30 As the circuitry will 'short out' the antenna to a degree. May 08 09:59:42 * koen ponders about the benefit of a circular antenna May 08 10:00:17 koen: Antennas can look totally weird and still work perfectly :) May 08 10:01:41 It's just easier to calculate on straight dipoles and coils and loops May 08 10:01:49 The 'next big thing' will be multiple antennas on a phone. May 08 10:01:55 To do beamforming. May 08 10:02:19 phased array :) May 08 10:02:27 Well - beamforming may be a bit elaborate, more just increasing the fraction of the power hitting the tower. May 08 10:02:28 SpeedEvil: Or antennas that has wider band reception May 08 10:02:38 UWB = evil. May 08 10:02:47 "we don't use phased array for rader because otherwise the mechanical engineers would be out of business" May 08 10:03:06 Well, it's not easy to get radio, gps, bluetooth and gsm in the same antenna May 08 10:03:15 Oh - that, yes. May 08 10:04:50 i'm surprised fm radio still exists. should be switched off in favour of dab just like terrestrial tv, imho. May 08 10:05:12 One of my best friends did 2 years post grad studies on antennas and is now designing antennas for Nokia. He always have arguments with the design people who makes such "un-functional" shells May 08 10:05:49 quitte_: I totally agree, fm is a waste May 08 10:05:59 can we expect anonymous design poposals from him? May 08 10:06:37 quitte_: Hehe.. I can always ask. May 08 10:07:17 They do a lot of test of signal strenth and such on all competitors phones, so maybe I should make sure he gets a Neo to test things on May 08 10:10:30 just built openmoko and the task bar has gone! May 08 10:12:19 DAB is shit. May 08 10:12:23 Unfortunately. May 08 10:12:28 Lower quality than FM. May 08 10:12:43 And OFCOM recently relaxed the requirement to broadcast at 128K. May 08 10:13:02 So broadcasters can drop the bitrate as far as they like. May 08 10:13:13 that's stupid! May 08 10:13:17 And it's not even mp3. May 08 10:13:19 It's mp2. May 08 10:13:28 Which sounds even worse at lower bitrates. May 08 10:13:31 we don't have any dab stations here May 08 10:13:46 i'm going to check what bitrate i receive for the stations May 08 10:13:54 It's also got _horrible_ spectral efficiency. May 08 10:14:15 webjames: R2/3 tend to be put out at high bitrate. May 08 10:15:16 (I'm speaking of the DAB system currently deployed in the UK) May 08 10:15:49 FM is also - at the moment - considerably lower power to recieve. And much smaller receivers. May 08 10:18:20 SpeedEvil, well R2 was 128, so was R1, R3 was 192, classic was 160, the jazz was 92Mono May 08 10:19:02 heh. just improve dvb-s receivers. May 08 10:21:32 trouble is with dvb-s is that you cannot have video on demand services, like virginmedia currently offer May 08 10:21:40 who are cable suppliers May 08 10:22:59 i doubt thats a technical limitation. skydsl manages to push internet down there after all May 08 10:24:16 yeah, but that's so poor as most people only get 1meg out of the 8 theoretically possible with perfect lines, if sky use that to stream their on demand it would have to be so compressed the quality would be awful May 08 10:28:53 and dvb-s doesn't work when you're mobile May 08 10:29:11 not to forget that dvb-s needs a streight line of sight without any reflections May 08 10:29:34 dvb-t works nice in Berlin - I saw it on benq not-released handheld May 08 10:30:02 dvb-t works well in the UK aswell May 08 10:30:10 even on trains and the like May 08 10:30:41 yes, dvb-t copes very good with multipath propagation May 08 10:30:47 but has problems with doppler May 08 10:31:48 dvb-t also works in a car :) May 08 10:32:08 hopscotch, aslong and your not giggling the receiver and i think it's safe to assume that the transmitter isn't moving then it's fine May 08 10:32:21 koen, that's quite impressive May 08 10:32:42 koen: every had a look at an automotive dvb-t tuner? May 08 10:33:45 diversity, multiple demodulators, doppler compensation, ... May 08 10:33:54 nothing you want to carry around in your pocket May 08 10:34:32 Hopscotch: no, I just stuck the antenna on the roof :) May 08 10:34:52 koen, nice so no special receiver? May 08 10:35:19 just the elgate DTT stick + included antenna May 08 10:35:23 koen: standard dvb-t stick? May 08 10:35:25 elgato* May 08 10:35:32 how fast did you drive? May 08 10:35:40 120km/h May 08 10:35:56 what's that, 80mph May 08 10:36:04 (.nl is flat and I drove from 1 transmitter to another) May 08 10:36:36 hmmm... that's pretty good... May 08 10:36:49 actually ~75 May 08 10:36:54 it surprised me as well May 08 10:37:02 no chance here - to many hills... May 08 10:37:04 +o May 08 10:37:27 ~convert 120 kmh to mph May 08 10:37:32 and too many black spots May 08 10:37:43 hrw:74.5 May 08 10:37:44 ~convert 120 kph to mph May 08 10:37:45 a tiny bird told me FIC is shipping phones right now May 08 10:38:00 nice May 08 10:38:11 koen, where to? May 08 10:38:21 to people May 08 10:38:31 hehe May 08 10:38:45 obviously not to me then.. unless they are surprising me May 08 10:39:43 afaik nobody has received a notice yet May 08 10:41:55 koen: does that mean you phone arrived a week earlier than everyone elses like last time > May 08 10:41:56 ? May 08 10:42:38 XorA: no, I heard UPS called someone to talk about customs May 08 10:43:06 * koen waits for a "it is shipping mail" May 08 10:43:30 I'll believe that it's shipping once I get the tracking number :) May 08 10:44:33 * hrw too May 08 11:02:11 Magon: just a simple line at the top of the C file where that code is used. May 08 11:05:08 robster: ok, and thanks May 08 11:08:33 SpeedEvil: AM radio has one cool thing at least, you can drive the headphones with the current induced recieving the radiosignal ;) May 08 11:17:30 hi all May 08 11:17:46 is openmoko only related to Neo1973 phone? May 08 11:17:58 are anyone working in ports to other hardware? May 08 11:19:16 Zenton: it works on different devices too May 08 11:28:51 koen: cool (wondering if it will include GPS binary library or if that is left later) May 08 11:31:30 they would have to make some hack for this because the buildsystem doesn't have the GPS library and it's not in official images May 08 11:33:09 balrog-kun: no hack needed May 08 11:33:35 balrog-kun: internal repo will have recipe to build it. public repo will have recipe to fetch binaries May 08 11:34:21 hrw: will it be legal to distribute the binary separate from the phone? May 08 11:35:44 no idea May 08 11:42:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] May 08 11:43:40 * aloril ponders if delay reason for shipping P1 hardware for P0 devs is GPS binary library May 08 11:45:29 I wouldn't delay for that but that's just me. That is, unless they haven't managed to test that the GPS chip is in any way functional :] May 08 11:46:40 aloril: No, GPS software has nothing to do with it May 08 11:48:57 stefan_schmidt: OK, do you know why P1 has not been shipped for P0 devs yet? (announce said there were ready <2007-04-25) May 08 11:49:52 mjr: yes, it doesn't make sense, P0 devs can surely update themself, for P1 it might make sense though because many clueless people will order it and bemoan lack of GPS .. May 08 11:50:12 * aloril prefers to get it without binary blob as soon as possible and update later (if needed ;-) May 08 11:50:32 aloril: Here are the facts: No shipping mail to P0 devs until now. Some people get called about custom thing from UPS. We will see the next days. May 08 11:50:45 if needed: if GPL arrives faster and is enough good, no sense to put binary blob ;-) May 08 11:58:39 hello! May 08 12:00:05 what about translating openmoko`s software in to russian language? May 08 12:00:05 Kljaver: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 08 12:00:32 aloril ^^ May 08 12:26:39 hmm.. FIC reportedly sells millions of phones, so .. is this each year? then 2 days of production would be several thousands May 08 12:27:10 (though I guess could be just part of those 2 days ;-) May 08 12:27:31 they even have their own GSM network :) May 08 12:33:03 does anyone know how hard it is to make a GSM phone work with Cingular(AT&T), how many hoops will they make me jump through? May 08 12:34:10 not sure its hard at all since they sell tons of em May 08 12:34:21 with the neo be able to do EDGE ? May 08 12:34:22 DigeratiX: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 08 12:34:31 clever bot May 08 12:45:42 DigeratiX: No edge on the Neo1973, at least not the current version May 08 12:46:58 well im still excited, looks like a wonderful cellie May 08 12:47:09 would love to have edge capability May 08 12:47:27 Wifi is more exciting I think May 08 12:47:42 yes thats a good thing as well May 08 12:48:28 Will be interesting to see what people will do with the gps May 08 12:52:55 CM: 1800-DIALASHAG May 08 12:53:09 XorA: Hehe May 08 12:53:58 actually will be bloody usefull for finding lost wifes/gfs on the road May 08 12:54:25 get the phone to tell us where they are, rather than a naff description of the road like "Well its got signs" May 08 12:54:26 thanks balrog-kun (with a little lag :) May 08 12:59:51 XorA: A friend of mine who has no sense of direction at all takes his tomtom from the car after saving the parking position, then uses it to find the car again. ;) May 08 13:00:04 I mean after been around town or so May 08 13:00:34 CM: at DNSCon in blackpool one of the guys entered all the strip clubs into his tomtom before getting drunk so he could find them in the dark while drunk May 08 13:00:52 Hehe, that's planning ahead! May 08 13:01:32 that was an expensive night though :-D May 08 13:03:03 I'll use my Neo to log my biking. Moving closer to work now, so only 7 instead of 12k to bike each morning. May 08 13:05:14 I wonder how long the battery will last when used as an mp3-player, also having the gps on at the same time May 08 13:06:33 CM: the screen will be off, so it shouldn't be too bad May 08 13:07:42 Hope so. How many mAh is the battery? May 08 13:07:54 Ah, 1200 May 08 13:11:08 what's the battery voltage? May 08 13:11:14 3.7 May 08 13:11:29 and what kind of threshold is there for the voltage? May 08 13:13:36 guaqua: isn't the battery max more like 4.[12]? May 08 13:14:16 d'oh, CM, not guaqua May 08 13:14:46 so there's no putting 3 1,5V cells? May 08 13:19:25 I just read what's on http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Battery May 08 13:25:23 koen: http://apcmag.com/6041/firefox_will_move_to_mobile_phones_mozilla_ceo May 08 13:25:25 "But yes I think it's fair to say that the actual and better piece - it's called WebKit by Apple - that particular piece is easier to work with currently than our analogous technology." (Mozilla Foundation CEO Mitchell Baker) May 08 13:28:47 CM: funny, seeing how horrendously broken mozilla is on arm May 08 13:28:52 err May 08 13:29:28 just look at what kind of patches are needed: http://lists.debian.org/debian-arm/2007/05/msg00039.html May 08 13:29:30 does that mean he just means that gecko isn't good right now and they are going for webkit or that they need to work on gecko to beat webkit? May 08 13:30:07 I guess she ment the later, improve gecko May 08 13:30:26 she? May 08 13:31:00 Looks a lot like a she.. :) May 08 13:31:10 Check part1 May 08 13:31:27 mitchell is a she :F May 08 13:32:12 gecko is a pile of monkey poo!!!! May 08 13:32:17 Well, Asa is a guy, but it sounds lika Åsa to me (Common swedish girl name) May 08 13:33:43 Åsa spelled wrong, yes :) May 08 13:34:47 There's many names that are confusing.. May 08 13:35:13 just get less choosy and it matters little May 08 13:36:06 Quinn Storm, the beryl leader, surely confused me.. May 08 13:36:38 she's the first female mitchell i've seen May 08 13:36:44 Hehe May 08 13:36:56 i think i knew a male megan when i was in the states May 08 13:40:05 if firefox doesn't roll out a mobile browser, they have already lost the war on that front May 08 13:42:16 she goes on to explain how firefox is something else than a browser May 08 13:42:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:How_to_run_OpenMoko_Apps_on_PC]] [[User:Elhaard]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Wish_List]] May 08 13:42:21 which is wrong May 08 13:42:38 firefox is a nice piece of software, but far from perfect May 08 13:43:36 guaqua: like minimo? May 08 13:44:39 did they decide yet whether minimo was dead or not? May 08 13:44:59 XorA: yes, they are reviving it May 08 13:45:33 we just need Gonqueror May 08 13:45:41 .. isn't this the neo? http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/technology/08sun.html?ex=1336276800&en=904f6a9e916d77f1&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss May 08 13:46:11 Doh! They stole it :D May 08 13:46:22 koen: my point is that what she is telling in that interview is crap May 08 13:46:29 none of the things she talks about really matter May 08 13:46:38 people want a browser, not a product May 08 13:46:43 mozilla doesn't really matter anymore May 08 13:46:53 hey May 08 13:47:33 * XorA would be netfront for linux May 08 13:47:38 s/be/buy/ May 08 13:47:40 guaqua: if your standards for software are perfection, you need to reconsider what you do for a living. firefox is the best there is, by quite a large margin May 08 13:47:46 elinksmobile May 08 13:47:48 gdiebel: err? May 08 13:47:51 Opera is absolutely awesome, but proprietary. May 08 13:48:18 funny the only thing I can get opera to do is crash spectacularly :-) May 08 13:48:26 Hm May 08 13:48:36 On your cellphone? May 08 13:48:40 firefox is a nice piece of software ?!?! May 08 13:48:41 gdiebel: what i meant was that if they get lazy and try to do something else than a browser, they will be doomed May 08 13:48:44 you're kidding ?? May 08 13:48:46 SuN: on my cellphone and on my linux desktop May 08 13:49:10 opera never crashed on my cellphone May 08 13:49:13 Weird... haven't had it crash a single time on my cellphone, and it crashes maybe once a month on my desktop. May 08 13:49:29 are you guys talking Opera, or OperaMini? May 08 13:49:34 Which is acceptable, since I use it daily and it has had session management for ages. May 08 13:49:42 I like OperaMini May 08 13:49:43 heh, it crashes every now and then here (desktop), but still a lot less than firefox May 08 13:49:47 Opera Mobile, haven't tried OperaMini yet. May 08 13:49:49 gdiebel: and i disagree on firefox being the best. it's usability is nowhere near opera's on desktop and they don't even have a browser for mobiles May 08 13:49:59 Sufing with it actually works, even over gprs on my k750i May 08 13:50:19 CM: Opera Mini is a nice bit of work, main opera is a pile of junk May 08 13:50:23 Firefox has a fairly clumsy interface compared to Opera, but it's hard to tell that to Firefox-biased people :D May 08 13:50:30 XorA: Agreed :) May 08 13:50:57 guaqua: show me usabilty on opera that can't be easily achieved with a ff extension. also opera is off my rader, because of license May 08 13:51:02 SuN: You use those fancy gestures and all? May 08 13:51:09 CM: yes, a lot. May 08 13:51:09 guaqua: a browser like minimo? May 08 13:51:25 gdiebel: there is no minimo for s60 3rd phone so... May 08 13:51:28 koen: that's win ce, for a nokia there's no mozilla option May 08 13:51:36 true May 08 13:51:41 there is webkit May 08 13:51:43 it does run on mobile phones May 08 13:51:43 * CM is happy with FF and a 9-button mouse May 08 13:51:47 but didn't tried it yet May 08 13:51:54 gdiebel: extension? it's crappy by default - with a dozen extensions and it still doesn't match opera May 08 13:51:59 opera is faster and leaner May 08 13:52:03 koen: there is no minimo port for symbian OS May 08 13:52:12 So does FIrefox finally have a hotkey for clearing the address bar now? Or even a button? :D May 08 13:52:16 ynezz: and symbian is the *only* os? May 08 13:52:20 yup, its quicker to crash opera than firefox :-D May 08 13:52:34 ynezz: my point was that "they don't even have a browser for mobiles" is nonsense May 08 13:52:41 ok May 08 13:52:42 ic May 08 13:52:57 java os for neo, interesting May 08 13:52:57 SuN: uh just hit ctrl+l the current contents will be selected. May 08 13:53:27 Ok, sufficient. May 08 13:53:30 Paste and go? May 08 13:53:34 and ctrl+k to go to the search field May 08 13:54:19 koen: what they offer for mobiles doesn't match the stuff opera offers. my comment was linked to that. if we wanna go literal there's something for practically every platform, but nothing you can actually use May 08 13:54:25 Nice one, though I'm used to keyword search (as in "g " in the address bar, I'm sure there's a FF extension for that. May 08 13:54:29 SuN: I think they removed that but I'm not sure.. I used to mark an url, then just middle click in the browser window to go there. Since 2.0 it just scrolls around May 08 13:54:37 i tried minimo on win ce, and it doesn't do it. ie is better there May 08 13:54:58 SuN: No extention, it works in the addressbar too. And "wp to search wikipedia May 08 13:55:28 Ahh cool, they finally copied that :) May 08 13:55:33 gdiebel: also, opera's fast forward is handy, didn't find stuff like that in firefox May 08 13:55:38 I don't mind though, the more people can use that sort of stuff, the better. May 08 13:55:58 SuN: paste and go can be set with a about:config string May 08 13:56:07 In, say, 10 years, when FF has integrated all that stuff, I might switch. May 08 13:56:14 Oh great, an about:config string. May 08 13:56:32 guaqua: many ways to achieve, greasemonkey script can be more powerful than fast forward is in opera May 08 13:56:56 on wince I would rather see just gecko wrapped into native wince interface May 08 13:58:06 guaqua: and opera doesn't offer anything on the platforms I run, so that's useless as well May 08 13:58:34 It used to run on Openzaurus Opie. May 08 13:59:08 right as koen indicates and oh I don't know the channel name being OPENmoko, opera is off many peoples radar. try reading some materials on fsf.org May 08 13:59:22 koen: that's another thing May 08 13:59:37 Open like the GPS driver? ;) May 08 13:59:40 gdiebel: I am not allowed to install proprietary software?!??! May 08 13:59:48 * XorA will continue to use links-x11 and dillo May 08 13:59:52 :) May 08 14:00:03 Dillo was nice until people started using CSS. May 08 14:00:08 XorA: poor boy May 08 14:00:08 elinks on wince/symbian would be dope May 08 14:00:11 A CSS+javascript engine in Dillo would rock. May 08 14:00:31 zecke_: wazzup? May 08 14:00:46 i think i just like the philosophy behind opera's user interface better. they incorporate new stuff by default and you don't have to go bleeding edge on some exotic extensions to have a modern browser May 08 14:00:58 It's a shame it died before the conversion to FLTK May 08 14:00:59 XorA: You should not prefer dillo over WebKit May 08 14:01:13 zecke_: get webkit browsers working then :-) May 08 14:01:33 * XorA cracks the whip at super h4x0r zecke_ May 08 14:01:40 XorA: thanks to alp the GdkLauncher works (somehow) May 08 14:01:54 zecke_: cool, so there is forward progress May 08 14:02:23 koen: allowed? of course you can do what you want. this just seems like an odd conversation for the openmoko channel. I mean what got you interested in the platform in the first place? in my case, the nearly total lack of proprietary software. May 08 14:02:37 heh May 08 14:02:50 * koen points to the closed source gps driver on the neo May 08 14:03:04 gdiebel: you should get a rash from openmoko May 08 14:03:18 look at gps, gms and all that proprietary stuff May 08 14:03:31 and they have the nerve to call it open! May 08 14:03:33 oh well time to quit /. says Ubuntu Embedded is gonna end OpenMoko :-D May 08 14:04:04 hehe May 08 14:04:09 heh May 08 14:04:17 it might emdebian,though May 08 14:04:24 uhm end emdebian May 08 14:04:28 How does GMAE fit into everything? May 08 14:04:43 I do see a Neo at http://www.gnome.org/mobile/ May 08 14:05:02 I will reiterate, nearly total lack. besides oss purity aside, the major software components such as browser are vastly more important than gps driver which will not really benefit from more eyeballs/hands hacking May 08 14:05:07 CM: same way as GNOME fits in on desktop Linux atm May 08 14:05:20 * XorA cant wait until Kopenmoko May 08 14:05:45 XorA: qtopia? May 08 14:05:59 quitte: no, just KDE May 08 14:06:01 gdiebel: so you'd be willing to use any proprietary operating system if there was no need to hack operating system? May 08 14:06:35 XorA: and Ã…ngströmoko May 08 14:06:56 hrw: and KÃ…ngströmoko May 08 14:07:02 enlightenment would have the eye candy May 08 14:07:16 GPL GPS driver will likely happen soon anyway ;-) May 08 14:08:06 aloril: exactly, the closed source is not a permanent solution May 08 14:08:09 nobody addressed my question, what got you interested in openmoko/open embedded in the first place? May 08 14:08:29 ~poll May 08 14:08:31 because with openmoko there's hope of getting things done right May 08 14:08:32 same thing that got to you May 08 14:08:37 gdiebel: Zaurus SL-5500 with OpenZaurus 3.3.5 May 08 14:08:44 Script for automating Fidonet polls. URL: http://www.drmach.demon.co.uk/vashti/software/index.html May 08 14:09:00 with openmoko there was hope of things done right May 08 14:09:19 As aloril said, gps can be freed. GSM isn't really a part of openmoko, just a part of a device that includes openmoko. It would be nice to have a free GSM stack too, sure, but willing to wait on that. May 08 14:09:20 was? :< May 08 14:09:34 koen, hrw: did you read my nytimes link? May 08 14:09:36 also, have you seen the orange, it's a must for any man about town May 08 14:09:54 webjames: too true my good man May 08 14:09:56 Stephmw: I read a few nytimes links today, which one? May 08 14:10:06 its basically Linux distribution with source of almost everything and thus can change/add anything I want May 08 14:10:12 koen: the one with the Neo1973 and Sun's JavaFX May 08 14:10:18 yes May 08 14:10:21 hilarous May 08 14:10:25 +i May 08 14:10:26 Stephmw: yeah, that is interesting screenshot May 08 14:10:45 obviously a mockup, but I'm curious about the Sun MicroSystems caption on it May 08 14:11:16 well, certainly they _can_ put their javafx or whatever on a neo if they wish (once available) :] May 08 14:11:29 Stephmw: no May 08 14:11:53 mjr: yeah, I wondering whether they've bothered to tell anyone at FIC this :) May 08 14:12:31 is this just basically a gui made with web scripting technology? May 08 14:13:08 I'd say that's likely for the user-changeable portions May 08 14:13:17 I don't see the rest of the UI being dones that way May 08 14:13:43 it's an interesting idea May 08 14:16:09 could someone give me a link? May 08 14:16:22 /lastlog nytimes May 08 14:16:35 http://www.nytimes.com/2007/05/08/technology/08sun.html?ex=1336276800&en=904f6a9e916d77f1&ei=5088&partner=rssnyt&emc=rss May 08 14:16:40 XorA: The 'end' section of that post was a question, not a statement :) May 08 14:17:40 ynezz: if i didn'T step on the power switch that might have worked May 08 14:18:04 Placid: I know I was kidding :-D May 08 14:18:27 quitte: what? May 08 14:18:32 XorA: phew :D May 08 14:18:42 (I wrote the article) May 08 14:19:14 quick lynch Placid May 08 14:19:34 * koen gathers the posse May 08 14:19:46 lol May 08 14:20:05 For the record, I would prefer openmoko & the Neo May 08 14:20:15 Hence the reason i'm in here, and not in #ubuntu or #intel :) May 08 14:20:28 I'd prefer a truely open solution May 08 14:20:49 for ubuntu 'embedded' means 'laptop with 10" screen' May 08 14:21:05 heh May 08 14:21:20 'only 20GB HD' May 08 14:21:32 there is arm port of ubuntu? May 08 14:21:33 openmoko is as close as you can get to mobile phone with debian on it May 08 14:21:52 if not running debian that is May 08 14:22:02 Placid: You wrote that article? Where is that picture from? May 08 14:23:10 alphaone: What picture? I meant the /. article May 08 14:23:19 ah, okay May 08 14:23:34 Placid: I thought the nytimes one. May 08 14:23:53 alphaone: lmao May 08 14:29:38 apt - I still run 3:800/812 May 08 14:35:00 amarsh04: Was that a trick to scare away apt? ;) May 08 14:52:57 http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/java-phone/suns-javafx-hopes-to-give-cellphones-an-extra-kick-258569.php May 08 14:53:24 JavaFX May 08 14:54:27 woah May 08 14:54:32 just read about ubuntu embedded May 08 14:58:04 DukeOfURL: aye, every tech site is picking this up - nobody but Sun seems to know about the details :) May 08 14:58:33 moo--: can't wait for the 'why can't I play my WindowsMedia files on this?' style questions :D May 08 14:58:44 Details will be announced at the Java One conference, so we'll probably know more in a week or so. May 08 14:59:09 Wonder if they're using OE? May 08 14:59:57 naw, if it's based on SavaJe, it'll be a statically bound custom kernel+jvm May 08 15:00:58 * Stephmw goes home May 08 15:09:24 counter May 08 15:09:24 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 6 days 08:50:33 (6.368 +-3.5 days) (1114;198) May 08 15:23:55 openmoko: 03andrew * r1929 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/ (hw/usb.c hw/usb.h monitor.c usb-linux-gadget.c vl.c vl.h): New monitor commands for managing multiple USB slave configurations (should be user-ready now). May 08 15:33:47 Here's more info about the JavaFX Mobile stuff: http://blogs.sun.com/jonathan/entry/when_not_where May 08 15:34:48 javafx? May 08 15:37:08 And on this rendering they removed the "NEO 1973" logo... May 08 15:38:01 http://www.sun.com/software/javafx/mobile/ May 08 15:38:06 hm May 08 15:39:18 stupid marketspeak. now i have a vague idea of all the great things i can do with javafx. buti still have no clue what it is. May 08 15:43:10 quitte hm yes May 08 15:43:17 Sun will deliver JavaFX Mobile, a complete mobile operating and application environment built around Java and Linux open source technologies May 08 15:43:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_compatible_cellphone_providers]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Shipping_Notes]] May 08 15:43:41 support for Java ME May 08 15:43:42 hahaha May 08 15:44:02 didnt he know he sun opens javame as phoneme May 08 15:44:13 and the current gtk port is broken May 08 15:45:00 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch May 08 15:45:13 https://openjfx.dev.java.net/source/browse/openjfx/trunk/ May 08 15:45:26 is it just J2ME, not J2SE? May 08 15:45:35 J2ME is next to useless for host apps May 08 15:45:36 moo-- hm not all May 08 15:45:42 just ME for now May 08 15:45:51 there ahre jsr May 08 15:45:56 are May 08 15:46:08 and it's not useless for - ta-dah - a phone ;) May 08 15:46:09 and javame implements not all from sdk May 08 15:46:26 but others for bluetooth and so May 08 15:46:49 hm at sun the left hand dont know what the right does May 08 15:46:51 I seems May 08 15:47:00 it May 08 15:47:05 often the case with corporations May 08 15:48:19 lol May 08 15:48:24 form javafx.sh May 08 15:48:26 java -Xmx256M -Xss1024 May 08 15:48:35 yeah all phones have 256mb ram May 08 15:50:29 that's why they invented swapping to flash May 08 15:51:44 cu May 08 15:52:15 hehe are there now facts how long swap on flash works, before flash is out of write cycles May 08 15:57:28 wondering how Sun got a Neo phone... May 08 15:57:48 by promising to get java running? May 08 15:57:50 gtg cu May 08 15:57:57 and FIC thinking they mean 'j2me games' May 08 15:59:17 is the picture photoshopped or is the phone working? May 08 15:59:25 photoshopped May 08 15:59:32 clearly doctored May 08 15:59:32 heh May 08 16:00:16 The phone itself is the photoshopped version, not an actual picture May 08 16:00:48 heh, the neo does have that vapor-hardware feel :-P May 08 16:01:01 is it already possible to bridge qemu to host environment somehow? for app development purposes. virtual ethernet? May 08 16:02:13 someone here got it connected by usb emulation May 08 16:07:03 MacNorth: http://www.sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8392.JPG.html May 08 16:07:58 meh, anyone can fake EXIF data :-D May 08 16:08:42 MacNorth: Damn, got me. ;-) May 08 16:08:53 heh :) May 08 16:09:13 koen midlet games only working with qt May 08 16:09:28 for x11 and gtk there is no port May 08 16:09:43 sun promised to fix that :) May 08 16:09:56 lol May 08 16:10:22 i dont see any effort in the phoneme projecz May 08 16:10:32 I started by myself May 08 16:11:19 (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz Re: Size and weight considerations for future Openmoko devices May 08 16:13:26 heh May 08 16:13:32 "Perhaps this one will be more successful as the Gnome project, too, had May 08 16:13:32 announced some efforts on the mobile and embedded area." May 08 16:13:48 "uninformed" and "ignorant" come to mind May 08 16:14:07 (since GMAE is already used in openmoko) May 08 16:15:44 I just noticed some sounds have made their way into openmoko toolchain ..some tones end with .rg, any idea i could get em to play in my box May 08 16:17:50 Sup3rkiddo: These are rosegarden files and you would need some MIDI equipment to render them AFAIK. Wansti has also commited them as ogg AFAIK. May 08 16:19:37 alphaone, oh..ok..i thought they were archives for a sec..nice to see oggs making their way...thanks mate ;) May 08 16:20:01 it's some sort of zipped xml May 08 16:23:16 Sup3rkiddo: That's the 'source' of the sound files May 08 16:23:19 Sup3rkiddo: alphaone is right, the .rg files are the source code to the sounds May 08 16:23:24 heh, exactly May 08 16:23:44 wansti: You need a faster machine for faster answers. ;) May 08 16:23:55 heh May 08 16:28:47 Hi wansti and stefan_schmidt! May 08 16:28:55 hey Elrond May 08 16:30:35 Isn't the neo fast enough for irc? ;o) May 08 16:30:54 stefan_schmidt: it's fascinating every time how your nickname is unique in not actually being a nickname :-) May 08 16:32:20 His real name is Thomas Zimmermann :) May 08 16:34:10 hm May 08 16:34:20 today is http://java.sun.com/javaone/sf/sessions/general/index.jsp at javaone May 08 16:34:25 args May 08 16:34:27 hi Elrond May 08 16:34:41 mobility and device session May 08 16:35:13 wansti: stefan_schmidt is used that often in .de that I'm always anonymous. :) May 08 16:36:37 stefan_schmidt - *G* May 08 16:36:43 wansti: http://www.google.de/search?q=wansti <- You're not really anonymous :-) May 08 16:37:28 alphaone: Try stefan_schmidt and you see what I mean. :) May 08 16:37:50 alphaone: true, but most of those links point to my music which is okay :-P May 08 16:38:17 That lyrics generator is hilarious. May 08 16:38:27 wansti: But your music is your heart as artist, isn't it? :) May 08 16:38:55 looks like I'm not the only "Wansti" in the world... this is definitely not me: http://flightxpress.at/forum/showthread.php?s=4771f5642215b18a5faa29c5dab489a3&threadid=31269 May 08 16:39:21 SuN: thanks. i already had lots of fun with it myself. :-) May 08 16:39:40 needs some more work, though... May 08 16:44:28 koen, woglinde: MIDPath now has a gtk backend May 08 16:44:41 (actually has had for a few weeks) May 08 16:44:52 nice May 08 16:47:12 Is http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko a safe procedure to update u-boot? May 08 16:48:28 koen: http://midpath.thenesis.org/en/Sandbox some screenies May 08 16:50:19 stephmw but this will not run with phoneme I guess May 08 16:50:47 woglinde: "The Java code is based on phoneME, a free implementation of MIDP2 from Sun." May 08 16:50:58 stephmw hm May 08 16:51:04 woglinde: so I doubt it would take much work to merge the work back May 08 16:51:11 ehy the hack the merge nothing back May 08 16:51:37 just a matter of time May 08 16:53:23 hm May 08 16:53:29 I can test it with cvm May 08 16:58:22 * ks-[AWAY_WORK] is back. May 08 17:01:18 woglinde, are you able to view those sessiosn? May 08 17:09:42 tvrdik @ tv prima May 08 17:09:45 sorry May 08 17:37:35 hm May 08 17:37:37 hehe May 08 17:37:44 it partly works May 08 17:44:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] May 08 17:48:24 Hello, everyone May 08 17:48:38 Does anyone still have access to tomtom with hammerhead? May 08 17:48:39 pavelm3: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 08 17:48:54 hihi May 08 17:50:02 !kill aloril May 08 17:51:44 i hoped to have access to the tomtom this weekend May 08 17:52:17 but i may actually have something better with how things turned out May 08 17:53:05 balrog-kun: better? May 08 17:53:28 balrog: it would be nice to do May 08 17:53:36 pH5: yep, a Neo, but it's not confirmed May 08 17:53:55 1. _really long_ strace, so that we can try some statistics. (Is this number reallly 0-1023?) May 08 17:54:06 balrog-kun: ah, very nice! May 08 17:54:09 2. strace in place with no signal May 08 17:54:45 has anybody gotten an answer from the hammerhead on the neo yet? May 08 17:55:23 AIUI no. May 08 17:55:27 Well. May 08 17:55:36 Tehre are reports of it saying '0x00' on powerup. May 08 17:55:42 But that's not real helpful. May 08 17:55:56 we were told there are still powerup problems, with known fix. May 08 17:56:09 so I simply wait for those to be fixed. May 08 17:56:39 pavelm3: ah ok, that is good to hear. May 08 17:56:40 3. startup - with all settings files deleted, or moved, so we can see a 'cold start'. May 08 17:57:40 Ideally, a >3 hour trace would be good, so we can see satellites setting. May 08 17:57:55 24h would be better, but... May 08 17:58:26 Even just another repeat of the earlier observation would be interesting. May 08 18:21:56 counter? May 08 18:21:56 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 6 days 05:38:01 (6.235 +-3.5 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-13); 4 months, a week (130.735 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1115;198) May 08 18:23:09 Sufflope, my Neo1973 just arrived at my house (I'm one the 14 of the first 50 developers who elected to wait for the next round of hardware.). May 08 18:23:25 It's all I can do to not leave early to go play with it! May 08 18:24:55 pavelm3 - You updated the "flashing openmoko" wiki page, right? May 08 18:25:00 nnpiggy: that's a phase 1 device? May 08 18:25:07 elrond: yes. May 08 18:25:08 I believe so. May 08 18:25:12 woo May 08 18:25:23 Yeah, I'm psyched. May 08 18:25:55 pavelm3 - I want to give it some formatting thingies. Can you review it later? May 08 18:26:06 * dietricha wonders how many devices planned in the may runs... May 08 18:26:45 dietricha - tihi, good question. May 08 18:26:46 nnpiggy: hmm, does that mean that phase1 devices are being distributed now? I elected to get phase0, but phase1 would be nice... as it should be actually usable. May 08 18:27:03 dietricha - I guess, they wont tell us. ;) May 08 18:27:03 elrond: go ahead. May 08 18:27:35 elrond: and it was basically my notes, so... it should be easy to improve :-) May 08 18:27:48 I believe that is correct, pavelm3. May 08 18:29:56 * pavelm3 hopes FIC will not forget about him ;-) May 08 18:30:14 :-) May 08 18:30:42 They seem to have remembered me--now I really need to sink my teeth into this device! May 08 18:31:03 * zecke_ heads to the Oranienburger-Tor to get some food May 08 18:31:06 nnpiggy: Is there good software to use now? May 08 18:31:50 I've only gotten as far as setting up the development environment. I'll play around with building something easy like a book reader... May 08 18:32:08 I did get the emulator to run and it looked like a phone to me :-). May 08 18:32:23 nnpiggy: I'd like to do few gsm calls... May 08 18:33:20 Yeah, I'm sure I'll drop my sim into it as soon as I have it unpacked and charged... May 08 18:34:08 Now I need to sign up for GPRS... May 08 18:39:43 nnpiggy: Wait with that a bit. I do not think neo has working web browser or working mail client just now. May 08 18:40:06 Does ping work? That's enough for me :-). May 08 18:41:24 pavelm3 - Done. Let me know, if I mixed something up. May 08 18:41:31 nn: ok ;-). There's how-to-do-gprs howto in the wiki. May 08 18:45:03 nn: actually ssh should be easy,and you can run lynx/mutt there :-) May 08 18:45:51 That's my expectation. May 08 18:46:23 * nnpiggy idly contemplates a vnc client... :-) May 08 18:47:40 elrond: Thanks, it looks much better now. May 08 18:47:59 nnpiggy: I wonder how usable freenx (sp?) is May 08 18:49:33 Hmm... Thanks for the pointer. The release schedule looks a little erratic, but it looks interesting. May 08 18:50:34 Yow! It's quite a host of separate applications... May 08 18:50:47 aloril: given that we have very-high-res, very-small screen, I'd not expect desktop apps to be usable without magnifying glass. May 08 18:51:07 pavelm3 - I tied not to change any content. Did you take a quick look at the diff? May 08 18:51:55 s/tied/tried May 08 18:55:10 elrond: it looks ok to me. No, I did not read diffs, but given how quickly that page was created... :-) May 08 19:02:50 pavelm3: scale it then ;-) (or configure/hack stuff for higher dpi, eventually needed for desktop apps too) May 08 19:09:35 aloril: you are right that higher dpi are getting more common. May 08 19:09:37 bye for now May 08 19:11:25 Higher dpi on what? May 08 19:11:25 ayan4m1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 08 19:12:36 ayan4m1: screen resolution? May 08 19:13:14 I mean on what device/hardware? The Neo1973? May 08 19:14:10 ayan4m1: I mean that screen dpi will go up on laptop and desktop displays too May 08 19:14:10 640x480 May 08 19:14:25 aloril2: Ah alright May 08 19:15:06 aloril2: You a developer, by any chance? May 08 19:15:14 * aloril2 recalls vaguely some laptop having 200dpi (othe than OLPC) May 08 19:17:28 I've heard of standalone panels that are 200 dpi, but never a laptop May 08 19:17:29 ayan4m1: not in openmoko team if you mean that, just one developer that is eagerly waiting for Neo1973 to be available May 08 19:18:42 aloril2: Ah good to hear then, I figured you were at least involved in keeping the channel safe, what with your other client's scripting and all May 08 19:19:42 Yeah I'm interested in developing for it myself, it's been a while since I've had a good embedded project to work on May 08 19:20:41 counter May 08 19:20:41 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 6 days 04:39:17 (6.194 +-3.5 days) (1116;198) May 08 19:21:54 Oh it's just a script running in xchat May 08 19:22:25 * aloril2 hopes that upper limit holds this time, but I might have made wrong guess (in how long QA, etc.. take time) May 08 19:22:45 Well it seems like they've been a bit optimistic with deadlines so far May 08 19:22:49 yes May 08 19:22:49 Not that I'm disparaging that May 08 19:23:23 (to xchat and past guesses) May 08 19:23:47 You like fedora? May 08 19:29:50 :q May 08 19:33:14 aloril2: What kind of software do you work with? May 08 19:42:09 how do I launch dbus in the OpenMoko chroot jail? May 08 19:44:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Flashing_openmoko]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] May 08 19:44:59 I get this in chroot when running /etc/X11/Xsession May 08 19:45:00 (openmoko-dialer:22187): GConf-WARNING **: Client failed to connect to the D-BUS daemon: May 08 19:45:00 Operating system does not support abstract socket namespace May 08 19:45:15 I started dbus using dbus-launch May 08 19:46:31 It looks like that's a define May 08 19:47:05 So probably not a runtime thing, I'd look at the source and see where HAVE_ABSTRACT_SOCKETS is defined May 08 19:49:01 ayan4m1: my laptop has 147ppi. It is the highest I have seen. I know there are some laptops that have ~166ppi and one IBM desktop panel that has 204ppi. I am fairly happy with 147(1920x1200 @ 15.4 widescreen) May 08 19:49:30 Yeah I have a WUXGA panel on my old laptop too, it's pretty nice May 08 19:55:29 How big is the Neo1973 screen in pixels? May 08 19:55:38 vga May 08 19:56:28 killall dbus-daemon was not that great idea May 08 19:56:54 mostly it isn't :) May 08 19:56:55 Hah May 08 19:59:40 damn, the freedom mini is apparently phased out for the freedom slim, which supports only bluetooth serial profile, not hid May 08 20:05:16 mmh, ebay May 08 20:33:07 now dbus launches May 08 20:33:11 but app still don't work May 08 20:33:18 I get this all the time: May 08 20:33:18 dbus-marshal-recursive.c(1186) May 08 20:33:21 is it dangerous? May 08 20:33:40 calculator work, but no app using dbus works May 08 20:59:12 my neo just showed up! woohoo May 08 20:59:25 bmidgley: congrats :) May 08 20:59:42 does that speed up the bluez 3.10 release? May 08 20:59:43 ;) May 08 21:00:09 I'm afraid I've not been helping much lately May 08 21:00:56 but no it won't speed up anything productive this week for sure May 08 21:02:03 bmidgley: So we have the first P1 owner? Or pre-P1? May 08 21:02:15 seconf May 08 21:02:18 second that is May 08 21:03:23 cool, it includes a combo led/laser/stylus/pen May 08 21:03:29 sadly not openmoko branded May 08 21:04:20 and a t6x50 tool to open the thing? what an invitation that is May 08 21:04:48 guaqua: Whom was the first? May 08 21:04:58 nnpiggy May 08 21:05:43 bmidgley: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412593301/in/set-72157594573486523/ May 08 21:05:44 * mjr defied a German webshop and ordered a mini bluetooth keypad, probably May 08 21:07:04 guaqua: heh, and I hoped mine could be under the top 5. But tomorrow is still some time. :) May 08 21:07:52 Does this mean I can send in my order for one or just specific dev's? May 08 21:07:52 crackfiend: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 08 21:28:31 according to dm2, neither the included 128m nor my 1gb microsd are recognized May 08 21:29:27 re May 08 21:29:42 * hrw use 128M microsd in neo May 08 21:35:32 hrw - Have you put your microsd in the compat list? :-) May 08 21:38:14 Elrond: not May 08 21:38:23 Elrond: it is card which I got with neo May 08 21:41:19 maybe dm2 is lying to me. i'll try to find the file browser May 08 21:42:25 it shouldn't matter that there is no gsm card inserted right? May 08 21:43:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Application_Developer]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Wish_List]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xoo]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Talk:Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] May 08 21:44:24 bmidgley: It shouldn't. May 08 21:44:26 However. May 08 21:44:37 The socket is fragile. May 08 21:44:49 I wouldn't be completely sure that it doesn't. May 08 21:45:41 ok no terminal... how do i examine boot/dmesg output May 08 21:51:21 Can you access the filesystem? May 08 21:53:01 cu May 08 21:56:11 i don't know how to try to access the filesystem May 08 21:56:29 what's built in is... rather spartan May 08 21:56:58 dm2 has to be lying May 08 21:57:13 i saw in the boot messages where it identified the sd card and found p1 on it May 08 21:57:38 Well is it mounted? May 08 21:58:08 i don't know how to see what is mounted May 08 21:59:12 Have you tried http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Getting_Started_with_your_Neo1973#Getting_shell_access_on_the_phone May 08 22:00:10 bmidgley - There was some issue with some connectors and some shorting. I remember, that there were some recommendations to only use the phone with $something inserted $somewhere. May 08 22:08:38 hmm there is no utilities in the main dropdown May 08 22:08:47 but the usbether method works May 08 22:09:12 Well that's a step then May 08 22:09:36 I wonder why there isn't a utilities... May 08 22:09:39 argh dmesg filled up May 08 22:09:52 only thing in /var/log is wtmp May 08 22:10:42 Is there anything in /mnt? May 08 22:11:41 bmidgley - Reboot? ;o) May 08 22:12:41 bmidgley - What do you want to know anyway? May 08 22:13:05 i saw messages about the mmc driver May 08 22:13:10 it looked like it was working May 08 22:13:19 it found a partition on the card May 08 22:13:41 now i did something to get the onscreen keyboard and i can't get rid of it May 08 22:13:45 this nfs connection how this should be configured? May 08 22:13:45 Haha May 08 22:14:06 what makes you think the SD is not working then? May 08 22:14:22 seems like all threads mention some exports stuff, but this is only one side stuff May 08 22:14:26 it is not mounted and dm2 says there is no card present May 08 22:14:43 what's dm2? May 08 22:14:55 re May 08 22:14:57 it's a diagnostic app May 08 22:14:57 and btw: P1 is shipping D May 08 22:14:58 balrog-kun: this export row should be on host filesystem? May 08 22:15:28 D? May 08 22:15:31 CoreDump: How does one go about obtaining a P1 unit? May 08 22:15:46 One waits and sees if it arrives. May 08 22:15:50 bmidgley: "head /dev/mmcblk0" should tell you if SD works May 08 22:15:52 balrog-kun: /etc/epxport some ip address, what about target? May 08 22:15:52 ayan4m1: official sale should start any day now May 08 22:15:57 P1? guess I'm not going to bed right now, after all :) May 08 22:16:05 The only ones getting them are core devs. May 08 22:16:21 Ah May 08 22:16:22 joss193: sorry, what export row do you mean? May 08 22:16:22 CoreDump: Alright, thanks for the news May 08 22:16:25 * CoreDump|home got a call from UPS today "We have a package for your from Taiwan" =D May 08 22:16:25 The next run of hardware that might reach end users will take a few days to hit May 08 22:16:34 balrog-kun: well configuring nfs server May 08 22:16:37 Well I'm interested in becoming a developer May 08 22:16:52 ayan4m1: you certainly can't get one of the P1's now to ship May 08 22:16:52 balrog-kun: all threads mention something about a line in host /etc/export May 08 22:17:13 balrog-kun: seems this would include a target address and it's shared path May 08 22:17:15 joss193: last time i used NFS was probably about 5 years ago, i'm afraid i can't help May 08 22:17:21 ayan4m1: In a werek or two, you can buy fort $350 May 08 22:17:44 balrog-kun: the thing is what makes this path to be shared on target os May 08 22:17:56 balrog-kun: since i get an error here May 08 22:17:59 SpeedEvil: Alright, I'll probably be doing that then May 08 22:18:02 ayan4m1: You might also be able then - when there are more devices out there - be able to convince them to give you one free - but probably only if you're somebody famous. May 08 22:18:08 mount: RPC: Program not registered May 08 22:18:33 SpeedEvil: Not really... I mean I have embedded programming experience but I don't expect a free unit May 08 22:18:39 joss193: you may need some line in /etc/rpc or /etc/protocols too May 08 22:18:47 Embedded may in some ways mislead you. May 08 22:18:52 It's more desktop. May 08 22:18:53 joss193: but i wouldn't know and i'm really not sure why you're asking me :) May 08 22:19:11 desktop + quirks May 08 22:19:12 It's basically a desktop that fits in your pocket, from programming perspective. May 08 22:19:13 heh May 08 22:19:19 balrog-kun: hehee, from you i last time asked how to make a network connection May 08 22:19:28 So the kernel and core support is reasonably complete then? May 08 22:19:30 balrog-kun: and you seem to be active here mostly May 08 22:19:37 ayan4m1: Pretty much. May 08 22:19:42 ayan4m1: Barring the GPS. May 08 22:19:50 Heh May 08 22:19:54 joss193: oh ok, but i'm afraid i'm more clueless about NFS than you May 08 22:20:32 balrog-kun: ah i just can not find a decent docs May 08 22:20:51 SpeedEvil: Well I'll try to help wherever I can, I have more desktop (UI) experience in Windows but I've worked with a lot of generic linux code May 08 22:20:59 ok fdisk -l /dev/mmcblk0 works and shows one partition May 08 22:21:11 mount /dev/mmcblk0p1 /mnt/card fails May 08 22:21:15 With? May 08 22:21:17 ayan4m1: Yeah - tehre is lots of 'linuxy' stuff that needs done. May 08 22:21:26 SpeedEvil: Haha the best kind of stuff May 08 22:21:27 ayan4m1: for example, speeding up boot scripts. May 08 22:21:34 bmidgley: you are probably missing the ext2 module May 08 22:21:52 bmidgley: looks like SD is working then May 08 22:22:01 modules.dep is missing May 08 22:22:14 balrog-kun: i just this is just a target , so called sharing devices line in /etc/exports, may that be correct? May 08 22:22:48 the running kernel is 2.6.20.7-moko8 May 08 22:22:55 SpeedEvil: I'm still setting up a dev environment but I'll take a look at them when I can May 08 22:23:03 but /lib/modules only has 2.6.20.4-moko8 May 08 22:23:13 balrog-kun: this is kind of syrrealisctic, if by default nfsd shares all the drive, depending what /etc/exports has in from the client side..does not look ok to me May 08 22:23:15 bmidgley: install and modprobe or insmod ext2.... May 08 22:23:40 balrog-kun: So the docs lack some elementary for beginners May 08 22:23:48 joss193: It doesn't. You have to add each shared folder manually, there is no default May 08 22:24:19 CoreDump|home:ah ok....so this export line is to client side showing the server path correct? May 08 22:24:44 CoreDump|home:ok in that case, how is the server configured, and started? May 08 22:24:49 no, /etc/export is server-side pointing to to-be-shared folders May 08 22:25:07 i'm going to see if the modules that are present will load May 08 22:25:23 there is a version mismatch May 08 22:25:37 CoreDump|home: ok and client side only would need a mount command to take this correct? May 08 22:25:39 the client mounts the shared folder via "mount -t nfs $SERVER_HOSTNAME:/path/of/shared/folder" May 08 22:26:08 CoreDump|home: server has to run rpc.nfsd correct? May 08 22:26:08 bmidgley: congratulations, your image is f*cked up ;) May 08 22:26:15 CoreDump|home: what about client? May 08 22:26:37 insmod /lib/modules/2.6.20.4-moko0/kernel/drivers/bluetooth/hci_usb.ko May 08 22:26:38 joss193: no idea, sorry. I use the nfs init-scripts on debian to start/stop the NFS server May 08 22:26:43 "Invalid module format" May 08 22:27:07 CoreDump|home: which i understand, but you start this for client and server ? May 08 22:27:18 only for server May 08 22:27:26 i guess all bets are off if no modules will load May 08 22:27:38 bmidgley: where did you get your rootfs from? May 08 22:27:49 at least they compiled in enough function to boot May 08 22:27:54 this is the image it came with May 08 22:28:17 ewww, the original rootfs that shipped w/ the P0 device? ouch =) May 08 22:29:07 or did you manage to get a P1 early? Anyway, you d/l the latest images from here: http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/ May 08 22:30:43 bmidgley - Check out http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Flashing_openmoko May 08 22:31:18 maybe i did get a p0 May 08 22:32:14 you should probably update u-boot then May 08 22:32:49 bmidgley - cat /proc/cpuinfo | grep Revision May 08 22:33:14 0240 May 08 22:34:01 Huh, sounds like a P1. fun. May 08 22:34:34 =) May 08 22:34:50 counter May 08 22:34:50 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 6 days 01:25:07 (6.059 +-3.5 days) (1117;198) May 08 22:34:54 Well, 0240 is not documented. May 08 22:35:14 where are the others documented? May 08 22:36:02 how long ago did it ship? May 08 22:37:47 can't tell--covered by stickers May 08 22:38:04 bmidgley - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Category:Neo1973_Hardware#GTA01Bv3 (check for ATAG_REVISION) May 08 22:38:25 well, if you received it today, it's probably a P1 May 08 22:39:39 bmidgley: Did you request not to get P0 shipped after problems revealed? May 08 22:40:14 I did, but I was late and they said the p0 devices were gone already May 08 22:40:42 * CoreDump|home congratulates bmidgley to his shiny new P1 May 08 22:41:30 it was shipped 5/7 6:30am from TW May 08 22:41:33 ahem lol, OM SVN is still b0rked by the u-boot breakage from yesterday May 08 22:42:30 but it already needs an update :( May 08 22:42:37 maybe just the kernel modules would be enough May 08 22:42:38 CoreDump|home - I assume there is a bug filed? May 08 22:42:46 yeah May 08 22:43:02 bmidgley - Just get the whole rootfs. The kernel modules are in there. May 08 22:43:10 ok May 08 22:43:34 !ombug 549 May 08 22:43:35 * * Bug 549, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown May 08 22:43:36 * * autobuild-reports(AT)openmoko.org: uboot-gta01-1.2.0+svnnow-r5_ac4cd59d59c9bf3f89cb7a344abf8184d678f562_0_1920-do_compile May 08 22:43:37 * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=549 May 08 22:45:19 bmidgley - You can backup the current rootfs, I think, too. May 08 22:46:16 !praise OM auto-builder May 08 22:46:18 * cdbot2 bows down to OM auto-builder and chants, "I'M NOT WORTHY!!" May 08 22:57:53 bmidgley - On the back/inside, is there no sticker with the "GTA01Bv0*" printed on it? May 08 22:58:25 inside := opening for inserting battery/card May 08 22:59:54 Elrond: good idea May 08 23:00:05 NOTE: package openmoko-devel-image-1.0-r0: task do_rootfs: started May 08 23:00:15 At least the Bv03 I have seen, had a sticker. May 08 23:00:53 mine has one as well May 08 23:01:43 bmidgley - BTW: What color do you have? And what else was in your box? May 08 23:04:35 * CoreDump|home reads the ML May 08 23:05:05 people sending HTML email should be shot May 08 23:05:13 This is, what P0 people got (incuding the debug board): http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412593301/in/set-72157594573486523/ May 08 23:05:33 Elrond: black, no eval board or ribbon cable but all the rest May 08 23:05:33 CoreDump|home - That's too nice to them. ;) May 08 23:07:05 bmidgley - Okay, so be careful with u-boot updates. :) May 08 23:07:12 the carrying case was included? cool May 08 23:07:31 CoreDump|home, wouldn't it be nice to be able to send 240V @ 50A down the Internet connection of the impolite? May 08 23:07:41 bmidgley - Any sticker with GTA01Bv* on the back? May 08 23:07:46 python package provides only stub of python openmoko. a lot of modules missing. where should I look them? May 08 23:07:48 * balrog-kun wants one but is afraid his device will be only a bare phone, no battery and no card May 08 23:07:59 Umm I seriously doubt an Ethernet cable could handle 240V at 50A May 08 23:08:06 DukeOfURL: I was think more like 15KV, which would burn up their computer as well =) May 08 23:08:25 ayan4m1: It'll do 240V @ 5A or so. If you use all the pairs. May 08 23:08:31 It's not rated for that of course. May 08 23:08:41 SpeedEvil: I doubt I want to know how you know this May 08 23:08:52 Basic knowlege of the sorts of wires. May 08 23:08:55 Hah May 08 23:08:57 Riiiight May 08 23:09:05 actually he is right May 08 23:09:09 Teh insulation won't typically break down until well over its sticker voltage. May 08 23:09:14 I don't doubt it May 08 23:09:30 P0 back stickers: http://www.flickr.com/photos/koenkooi/412600520/in/set-72157594573486523/ May 08 23:09:33 I wouldn't rely on it for more than about 110@2A May 08 23:10:16 Elrond: hehe lets play the "who has the lowest serial number" game =D May 08 23:10:29 CoreDump|home - *lol* :-) May 08 23:12:20 CoreDump|home - So what's your S/N? ;o) May 08 23:12:30 153 May 08 23:12:45 lower than koen's ;) May 08 23:13:09 heh May 08 23:14:17 About 200 units have been released thus far, right? May 08 23:14:37 Maybe. May 08 23:14:46 i think many more with today's update May 08 23:14:52 For various values of shipped/released May 08 23:15:01 Ah got it May 08 23:15:06 I think 200 is probably around right. May 08 23:15:19 Heh gotta love beta hardware May 08 23:15:19 Yep. May 08 23:16:07 at least FIC doesn't sell Beta Hardware as finished product May 08 23:16:17 I'll have to reflash it tonight May 08 23:16:21 back later May 08 23:16:34 CoreDump|home: As opposed to? May 08 23:16:53 The RCA Lyra was the only product like that I've bought May 08 23:17:08 * balrog-kun envies koen's photocamera May 08 23:17:23 * CoreDump|home points out the recent articles about exploding batteries, popping caps May 08 23:17:39 balrog-kun: he cam sure rocks May 08 23:17:39 That's not beta hardware though. May 08 23:17:45 That's lousy QC. May 08 23:18:05 stefan_schmidt - We're currently playing the "who has the highest/lowest S/N on his p0 phone" ;o) May 08 23:18:13 Oh no the thing was plagued with half-assed software May 08 23:18:41 <_stefan_schmidt> Elrond: ah, moment May 08 23:19:02 <_stefan_schmidt> Elrond: 169 May 08 23:19:11 * CoreDump|home imagines _stefan_schmidt digging up a barely functional prototype PCB May 08 23:19:17 "002" =D May 08 23:19:38 <_stefan_schmidt> CoreDump|home: heh, no. The send me the whole P0 package May 08 23:19:48 _stefan_schmidt: I see ;) May 08 23:20:12 <_stefan_schmidt> Debug board is 18 :) May 08 23:20:25 stefan_schmidt - You're in the middle between koen and CoreDump :-) May 08 23:20:43 * CoreDump|home fetches the debug board May 08 23:21:49 someone wrote "34" on the back w/ a text marker, I guess that's it May 08 23:22:02 CoreDump|home: yes May 08 23:22:33 Elrond: what is the smallest number right now? May 08 23:22:45 stefan_schmidt - Coredump: 153 May 08 23:22:54 (for the phone, Just started the debug board list ;o) ) May 08 23:23:10 hehe May 08 23:23:18 with highest being koen May 08 23:24:00 .oO(putting up a wiki page? ;o) ) May 08 23:24:53 =D May 08 23:26:24 I'll ask some few other about their serial. ;-) May 08 23:27:18 Elrond: alphaone and Shoragan have a higher number then me May 08 23:27:37 stefan_schmidt - koen has 176. May 08 23:27:37 numbers even May 08 23:28:00 * SpeedEvil has 'i'. May 08 23:28:00 Elrond: 194 May 08 23:28:02 stefan, i have 172 May 08 23:28:27 OK, no everybody knows which number alphaone has ;) May 08 23:28:54 * stefan_schmidt has some ideas about how people handle her privacy. ;) May 08 23:29:03 stefan, did they call you again? May 08 23:29:17 Shoragan: no May 08 23:29:20 k May 08 23:29:48 So alphaone currently holds the "highest number" place. ;-) May 08 23:30:00 Shoragan: Two options: 1. Both phones are in the same package 2. Your package had no custom trouble. May 08 23:30:11 lets see :) May 08 23:30:34 stefan_schmidt: Hmm, did I consent to you giving my serial number away? May 08 23:30:43 Shoragan: If only one arrive it is of course mine. :) May 08 23:30:45 They didn't call me either May 08 23:30:49 hehe May 08 23:31:18 Shoragan: That's why I didn't want mine delivered to stefan :-) May 08 23:31:24 Have you guys already got info on a P1 shipping? May 08 23:31:44 alphaone: I have not. I spoke about two numbers. But Shoragan told his and so it was clear which one was yours May 08 23:31:46 Elrond: yes - people have reported getting package waiting notifications. May 08 23:31:51 CoreDump said that they would be shortly May 08 23:31:55 Elrond: UPS call about custom trouble, no mail :( May 08 23:32:02 And even one arriving. May 08 23:32:28 These are not paid for ones. May 08 23:32:35 If the UPS dude was right mine should be here in 11 hours May 08 23:32:51 SpeedEvil: Ah. May 08 23:33:11 Speed: are you getting a phone? May 08 23:33:29 * balrog-kun knows of four more that arrived in the afternoon May 08 23:33:55 mine should be here in ~8 to 12 hrs May 08 23:34:18 CoreDump|home: hmm, still possible to beat you ;) May 08 23:34:23 DukeOfURL: Not AFAIK. May 08 23:34:24 hehe May 08 23:35:16 DukeOfURL: well - barring the whole 'pay for one' thing. May 08 23:36:17 So the ones sent are probably the non-mass-production ones? May 08 23:36:21 I saw that Jonathan Schwartz demo'ed JavaFX on an FIC handset - anyone know what Java implementation was used for that? May 08 23:36:22 Zigur1: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 08 23:36:39 Elrond: Reading in conjunction with the email from Sean - I think not. May 08 23:36:46 It would be cool if P0 devs could thought about what to do with the P0 phones. Would be nice to see some rent-a-P0-for-hacking May 08 23:37:17 Elrond: That the 150 already produced ones May 08 23:37:25 Ahh. :) May 08 23:37:42 Elrond: Not the factory run on 10th May 08 23:37:43 the P0es will be worth tons of money some day :p May 08 23:38:09 balrog-kun: heh, phones with standby of some hours and ugly sidetone. :) May 08 23:38:29 DukeOfURL: Will do. May 08 23:38:34 oh, and no accelerometer May 08 23:38:46 balrog-kun: Have you seen the debug board V1? With the red button? May 08 23:39:01 balrog-kun: That one will be worth tons of money. :) May 08 23:39:07 stefan_schmidt: in pictures :) May 08 23:39:11 * SpeedEvil needs to got o sleep. May 08 23:39:14 Night all! May 08 23:39:16 heh May 08 23:39:18 night SpeedEvil May 08 23:39:52 balrog-kun: I have seen one once. The sound of the red button is cool. May 08 23:40:04 Sounds really mechanical :) May 08 23:40:25 I am but a noob, so I hesitate to "send information regarding embedded Linux projects you have contributed to, and the work you have done to coreteam AT openmoko DOT org". But I *do* know my way around Linux and gcc and I'd like to get my hands on a Neo1973. Now, I'm correct in assuming that this here 'P1' release is when I should have that opportunity, right? May 08 23:40:33 Not sure if they have a special soundchip in the button for it. ;) May 08 23:40:47 The FAQ says there will be a Java "eventually" so was the Sun demo hoked-up? May 08 23:41:08 Zigur1: Photoshoped May 08 23:41:15 Is there a significant contingent of people who want Java? May 08 23:41:58 chreekat: Yes, P1 can be bought from everyone. But don't expect a smooth working phone. :) May 08 23:42:05 My primary programming language is Java, but I'm sure getting to like python! May 08 23:42:28 stefan_schmidt: that's what I wanted to hear. :) May 08 23:42:29 ayan4m1: Many people want java, but nobody does the work. :) May 08 23:42:39 chreekat: :) May 08 23:42:39 stefan_schmidt: Bah, I'd rather see Mono May 08 23:42:43 <-- doesn't want java. :) May 08 23:42:47 Java ftl May 08 23:43:00 <-- neither mono. ;) May 08 23:43:02 Hah May 08 23:43:05 <-- wants full python. ;o) May 08 23:43:19 Well Mono is my favorite of the interpreted platforms May 08 23:43:34 But Python wouldn't be bad May 08 23:43:43 I <3 "open-source" hardware. I've been hanging out at #neuros for a couple years now. I started a projcet to port gcc to its DSP, but then life got in the way. :) May 08 23:44:10 My open source hardware experience was in pspsdk May 08 23:44:15 I put quotes on 'open-source' simply because it seems weird to call hardware open source. I guess it's legitimate though. May 08 23:44:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Herod2k]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] May 08 23:44:21 I think it is a real problem with the P1 cpu. Should be better with next hw revs May 08 23:44:47 stefan_schmidt: What is a real problem? May 08 23:45:30 ayan4m1: s3c2410 200Mhz is really slow. May 08 23:45:37 Ohh May 08 23:45:54 Yeah that'd be a problem for any interpreted lang May 08 23:46:08 Well, it's not super-slow, but the GUI is demanding, and there is no gfx accel. May 08 23:46:32 Elrond: Of course normal non-GUI c apps are fine May 08 23:46:42 Is it a multi-windowed UI? May 08 23:46:49 Elrond: The statement was more about Java or Mono May 08 23:47:17 ayan4m1: -v please May 08 23:47:18 Oh, okay, yeah. May 08 23:47:41 stefan_schmidt - Well, I have a pII 350 in front of me. And josm is _fast_. I have no idea, what the trick is. May 08 23:47:56 josm := java editor for openstreetmap. May 08 23:48:35 Elrond: Highspeed busses to hdd and ram? It's not really comparable to a SoC May 08 23:49:03 Elrond: ah, sorry you mean PII -> P4 May 08 23:49:12 or anything else new May 08 23:49:34 stefan_schmidt - pentium 2. May 08 23:49:44 really oldish. May 08 23:49:52 stefan_schmidt: -v? May 08 23:50:23 btw, talking about hw. I just orded a new desktop. AMD 64 X2 2x2,4Ghz + 4GB RAM :) May 08 23:50:48 ayan4m1: verbose please. What do you mean with multi-windowed? May 08 23:51:03 stefan_schmidt: Ah hah I meant does it have a window manager May 08 23:51:11 Yes. May 08 23:51:13 matchbox. May 08 23:51:18 Ah cool May 08 23:51:39 ayan4m1 - Well, if you want, you can run your-favorite-wm on it. It has straight X11 on it. May 08 23:51:50 ayan4m1: You can run different apps at the same time. But we use fullscreen apps May 08 23:51:57 Right, that makes sense May 08 23:52:07 I was going to say that it'd get confusing rather quickly on a VGA screen May 08 23:52:16 stefan_schmidt - Some dialogs are "on top" and not full screen. May 08 23:52:33 But of course non openmoko apps can use normal windows with decoration May 08 23:52:50 Elrond: Got me :) May 08 23:53:12 So there's a set of software designed especially for openmoko and then a seperate set of ports? May 08 23:53:18 Or at least, is that the plan May 08 23:53:39 Er by openmoko I meant the neo1973 May 08 23:53:43 ayan4m1 - Basicly yes. May 08 23:54:05 ayan4m1 - openmoko is right. The neo is just one phone "designed for openmoko". May 08 23:54:11 Ah alright May 08 23:54:17 Hi all. I'm from Bulgaria and would like to help openmoko with UI translation to Bulgarian. Whom to ask for .pot (or whatever) files to translate? May 08 23:54:17 Commands: counter (see estimated time until P1), counter_msg (set message for counter), faq (link to FAQ in wiki) May 08 23:54:30 And it's total random surprise, that those too come together. ;o) May 08 23:54:55 mr700 - There's a translation thingy on the wiki. May 08 23:55:11 aha, ask aloril for the wiki, right? May 08 23:55:21 wiki.openmoko.org May 08 23:55:22 ayan4m1: There will be a set of apps designed for the look and feel of openmoko. Fitting normal phone usage. But you can run any linux app. May 08 23:55:35 10x May 08 23:55:58 stefan_schmidt: Right May 08 23:56:03 Yeah sorry, May 08 23:56:09 It's just a question how useable the GUI is on the device. May 08 23:56:10 I did mean the handset, May 08 23:56:51 Hah yeah amarok on that screen would probably end rather poorly May 08 23:57:51 stephan: I'm doing the work, but targeted to a different device for now. Not a big step to move it to the FIC, though. May 08 23:58:01 Same CPU May 08 23:58:07 200mhz? May 08 23:58:59 Or just the same arch May 08 23:59:00 Zigur1: We are always open for new stuff running on this devices. May 08 23:59:08 mr700 - http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Translation_HOWTO May 08 23:59:23 yep, reading, 10x May 08 23:59:48 no BG translators, I will be the first one ;-) May 09 00:00:15 Cool May 09 00:08:33 mr700 - Good. :) May 09 00:18:51 I know how I asked this earlier (and I apoligize for repeating myself), but does anyone know the screen size of the Neo? May 09 00:22:01 poffy: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973_Hardware#LCD_Display_Module_.28LCM.29 May 09 00:23:21 I saw that, but wasn't quite sure. I didn't know the screen was only 1.7"x2.27" May 09 00:23:24 Seems kinda small May 09 00:25:59 at 640x480 you can fit quite abit on it May 09 00:26:41 "abit".. is that like "alot"? :P May 09 00:27:03 heh May 09 00:27:07 I have a zaurus which has a similar screen May 09 00:27:11 depends on your definition of alot i guess May 09 00:27:16 it's nice May 09 00:27:36 i think the 640x480 will make the developers try to fit too much stuff on the screen, more than is really suitable for 1.7x2.27" May 09 00:27:47 set your PC to 640x480, open notepad, have a look May 09 00:27:57 the zaurus screen is bigger afaik May 09 00:27:59 you might want to stand a few meters away to get the size right May 09 00:28:10 balrog-kun: yes, it is May 09 00:28:11 Psi: my point was that "abit" and "alot" are not words :) May 09 00:28:47 * balrog-kun actually is IRCing on an old LCD that works at 640x480, 14" :) May 09 00:29:01 but that's not my main monitor, fortunately May 09 00:29:19 balrog-kun: heh. I suspect that setting the DPI properly on the moko might make it... unusable May 09 00:29:42 or maybe not May 09 00:30:00 pjz: i dunno, it probably can look okay if you use big enough fonts May 09 00:30:05 big pixel-wise May 09 00:30:17 id imagine people will add the ability to have different sized text, after all, some peoples eyesight is better than others May 09 00:31:01 and if the phone is intended to eventually be used by "mums and dads" as said, then it will need to be readable by old people :P May 09 00:31:08 Night people. :-) May 09 00:31:53 it's mainly the font used by the number buttons in the dialer that matters May 09 00:32:57 I dunno, I don't think most people dial numbes May 09 00:32:59 numbers May 09 00:33:05 I think most people dial names mostly May 09 00:33:13 i would agree May 09 00:33:29 but there is a demand for a really simple phone for old people May 09 00:33:37 one that you just enter the number you want to dial, and thats it May 09 00:33:41 only time to dial numbers is if you have one you don't want to make a vcard for May 09 00:34:00 sure May 09 00:34:12 and I want to make a 'kidphone' that is all pictures May 09 00:34:26 no words even May 09 00:34:41 would be easier with a cameraphone of course May 09 00:34:55 but can still attach pictures on the PC side May 09 00:34:58 i was just thinking, yeah, be good to have a camera for that May 09 00:35:31 or maybe use some kind of international symbols for 'man' and 'woman' to mean mom and dad May 09 00:35:48 or let you assign some batch of preset icons to them May 09 00:35:57 how young are you aiming for? May 09 00:35:59 get them from IM-icons maybe? May 09 00:36:09 Psi: 3+ May 09 00:36:17 lol May 09 00:36:39 Psi: well, what age do most learn to read? May 09 00:37:13 dunno May 09 00:37:55 so anyway, pictures-only moko would be good for mentally handicapped as well May 09 00:38:07 true May 09 00:38:55 you could even do a phone for the blind by having different sounds for when their finger is over different things May 09 00:40:05 the number of things possible with a neo is amazing :P May 09 00:41:16 might as well keep the lcd switched off for a blind person, save the battery, just use the touchscreen for input and speaker for output May 09 00:42:18 i could sit here for hours talking about different things the neo could do :P May 09 00:42:24 but i probably should get back to work :P May 09 01:43:19 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Mr700]] [[Press_Coverage]] [[Translation]] [[User:Herod2k]] [[User_talk:Herod2k]] May 09 01:44:26 hello folks May 09 01:45:55 anybody knows about SDL on openmoko? May 09 01:46:02 hey May 09 01:46:48 hey duke May 09 01:47:08 direct media? May 09 01:47:58 yeah May 09 01:48:05 Simple Directmedia Layer May 09 01:48:29 i had to google it May 09 01:48:30 neostrider: hi May 09 01:48:51 Evening (or appropriate time of day) folks. May 09 01:48:52 neostrider: SDL runs on openmoko, yes, I did try it. May 09 01:49:02 I've just unpacked my Neo1973... May 09 01:49:16 I'm soooo jealous May 09 01:50:03 I took a few photographs while unpacking it. I still need to edit them into an animation :-). May 09 01:50:03 I want to buy a Neo when its more market ready...and develop some cool games May 09 01:50:11 just as Im doing now with Maemo May 09 01:50:24 neostrider: however, you have to adjust SDL program to fit color depth. May 09 01:50:41 whats the screen configs? May 09 01:51:09 some desktop SDL programs depends on 32bit color depth. May 09 01:51:23 It is not for the case of GTA01. May 09 01:52:26 16 bit? May 09 01:52:55 (im doing my apps as much framebuffer independent as possible - doing everything vectorial) May 09 01:53:33 neostrider, a 2.8" diagonal (1.7" x 2.27" - 43mm x 58mm) 480x640 toppoly (tpo) TD028TTEC1 module, using a Toshiba JBT6K74 TFT LCD Driver Chipset. May 09 01:54:03 neostrider: yes May 09 01:54:36 cool May 09 01:54:42 VGA 16 bit rotated May 09 01:55:18 color 256K May 09 01:55:53 http://www.tpo.biz/ENG/business-eng/Activer-Matrix-VGA.htm May 09 01:55:58 how is the toolchain like? May 09 01:56:09 hey all, i had a question on the status of the Neo. May 09 01:56:19 Ask away, Sutekh. May 09 01:56:32 neostrider: you can build the toolchain from scratch by OE. May 09 01:57:17 ok...how different from scratchbox it is? May 09 01:57:24 i guess it's quite early, but is there any indication of when the neo would be "market-ready" May 09 01:57:50 counter May 09 01:57:51 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a guess) P1: 5 days 22:02:07 (5.918 +-3.5 days) (1118;198) May 09 01:57:51 or is it still developers only May 09 01:58:26 oh thanks, i didnt know about the wiki May 09 01:58:27 it might be not as convenient as scratchbox, but you have more flexibility against OE-based system. May 09 01:58:41 but in pratice, how it is like? May 09 01:58:55 you have a special gcc you invoke from *sh? May 09 01:59:05 I made a real phone call with mine a few minutes ago--how much closer do you need? :-) May 09 02:00:05 The best part so far is the extras--they include a guitar pick, and the fanciest laser/led flashlight/pen/stylus I've ever seen. May 09 02:00:13 nnpiggy, your SIM card worked? May 09 02:00:14 will Neo be available in retail stores? May 09 02:00:29 nnpiggy: that's pretty cool May 09 02:00:30 Yep. T-Mobile. I just dropped it in and it worked well. May 09 02:00:41 what city? May 09 02:00:53 Pittsburgh. May 09 02:01:28 what's on your agenda--development wise May 09 02:01:32 neostrider--I have no idea. May 09 02:01:57 I wanna get one in canada! ;-) May 09 02:02:05 Oh, I'm very keen on GPS, so I may join the effort to reverse-engineer the protocol. May 09 02:02:46 On a less ambitious note, there are some minor things I want like a good book reader and scumm... May 09 02:03:24 The first thing my kids asked was "Can we play FOTAQ on it?" :-) May 09 02:03:51 yuk May 09 02:04:07 neostrider: i want to get one in Australia! ;D May 09 02:04:13 on me, screw GPS. I just want a cool linux handheld that the mass market will also enjoy ;-P May 09 02:04:25 FOTAQ? May 09 02:04:25 neostrider: they are working on other than Internet selling channels for mass market release May 09 02:04:32 Flight of the Amazon Queen. May 09 02:04:34 great May 09 02:04:37 ahhh...great! May 09 02:04:41 It's a scumm machine... May 09 02:04:45 i know May 09 02:05:09 im actually from Brazil May 09 02:05:14 but this things NEVER get here May 09 02:05:27 but Im going to a trip for canada on january May 09 02:05:35 so Im expecting to get one for me May 09 02:06:46 neostrider, I expect that you will be able to order one directly from FIC. May 09 02:07:02 You have GSM carriers in Brazil, yes? May 09 02:07:13 yeah...my current phone is a GSM May 09 02:07:22 I indeed had a N-Gage in the past May 09 02:07:40 but the shipping will be overkill May 09 02:07:45 nnpiggy: have they yet included closed gps binary blob? (I guess not) May 09 02:07:48 there will be the importing taxes May 09 02:07:57 so a new package landed on my porch this afternoon; anyone know what the new hardware version is capable of doing? May 09 02:08:00 (would help in reverse engineering ;-) May 09 02:08:08 I note that the included software remains as dire as the first hardware build May 09 02:08:10 I don't see the GPS blob... May 09 02:09:08 keithp, I understand they've fixed the battery life and audio problems. May 09 02:09:18 nnpiggy: so should work as a telephone now? May 09 02:09:34 I'm not exactly stunned by the current sound quality, but that will undoubtedly improve. May 09 02:09:47 heh. May 09 02:09:51 Yes, keithp, I called the house and everybody tried it out. The kids had a ball. May 09 02:10:03 you built new software from scratch then? May 09 02:10:43 btw -- 2.6.21 + tickless has shown great promise on my laptop in improving battery life, given sufficent user-space hacking May 09 02:10:55 Me? Not yet. I've installed the devel environment, but I haven't put anything on the phone. That's just what I got out-of-the-box. May 09 02:11:01 how did you dial? May 09 02:11:08 The dialer app just crashed for me May 09 02:11:21 Or does it fail if I haven't stuck a SIM in yet? May 09 02:11:36 I had to start the dialer app from the icon--it wouldn't start from the menu down the left side... May 09 02:11:46 I wouldn't expect the dialer to be happy without a SIM. May 09 02:11:53 heh. I'll try that then May 09 02:12:30 I need to order myself a larger memory card and install Werner's keyboard wheel... May 09 02:12:54 I suppose tomorrow night I'll see about talking to the thing with bluetooth... May 09 02:13:17 I don't currently have GPRS service or I would have tried that out too... May 09 02:13:47 So, there's a lot of mucking about I want to do before I'm doing anything that might be considered useful to the community... May 09 02:14:50 Ah. I'm up past my bed time. May 09 02:14:54 hey, what's the keyboard wheel thing? May 09 02:15:04 It's software, balrog-kun. May 09 02:15:19 I believe Werner Almsberger is the mind behind it--very clever... May 09 02:15:33 nnpiggy: is it somewhere on the wiki described? May 09 02:15:55 It's been on the mailing list over the last couple days. May 09 02:16:04 oh, gonna browse, thanks May 09 02:16:07 Hmm... If you like, I'll dig out the URL for the source code... May 09 02:16:17 actually, the main ARM9 connects to the ARM7 through AT commands, right? May 09 02:16:26 nucleusOS might expect the SIM May 09 02:16:31 i'll dig it out :) May 09 02:17:22 You are ahead of me on that, neostrider--haven't gotten into the internals... May 09 02:17:53 I just saw it on wiki May 09 02:18:12 but I would expect that to happen May 09 02:18:39 how can a protocol be stablished if one of the parts is not ready? May 09 02:18:49 Yeah, quite plausible. May 09 02:20:19 hey..the Neo is "blatantly a linux box" or is a "EZX like"? May 09 02:20:33 blatantly linux :) May 09 02:20:49 great! May 09 02:20:52 Gotta love that penguin during bootup! May 09 02:20:56 the kernel isn't even tainted May 09 02:21:02 can we peek /bin, for example? May 09 02:21:08 REALLY?! May 09 02:21:10 COOL! May 09 02:21:11 you can rebuild /bin ;) May 09 02:21:22 can we run gcc on it? =-P May 09 02:21:29 painfully, but probably May 09 02:21:31 Yes, we CAN run gcc on it... May 09 02:21:34 neostrider: you generally cross compile May 09 02:21:50 yeah...I already do that for maemo May 09 02:21:55 not so painfully as you may be imagining :) May 09 02:21:56 http://www.almesberger.net/misc/openmoko/inwheel-1.tar.gz , balrog-kun May 09 02:21:58 but ,you know, maemo is quite capable too May 09 02:22:01 nnpiggy: oh, thanks May 09 02:22:32 balrog - cool :) May 09 02:22:45 i ran gcc and even compiled and entire kernel on a 60 MHz / 32MB of RAM ARM machine May 09 02:23:05 **drooling** May 09 02:23:12 (and the kernel booted) May 09 02:23:21 :) May 09 02:23:26 sweet May 09 02:23:51 and how about some quake on it? can it handle? May 09 02:24:10 * nnpiggy suspects that quake is a bit much... May 09 02:24:23 may be heavy May 09 02:24:30 yeah... i think there are integer optimized builds now, but even then getting 640x480 out of it sounds like a challenge May 09 02:24:37 Doom should run very smoothly though May 09 02:24:39 There's a noticable lag in just launching X applications--several seconds at best... May 09 02:24:45 wow... May 09 02:25:10 Doom does run nicely on the 770...and at higher res... May 09 02:26:31 Doom ran at maybe 10 FPS on the said 60 MHz machine May 09 02:27:05 http://www.numenor.art.pl/balrog/palmte/prboom-menu.jpeg May 09 02:27:23 (messed up palette) May 09 02:28:13 Oh well, I really do need to go to bed. G'night folks! May 09 02:28:30 good night, nnpiggy May 09 02:28:35 neostrider: you can build whole OpenMoko distro yourself from sources (only binary GPS library is not yet available, also GSM firmware is in separate system) May 09 02:28:41 (http://www.numenor.art.pl/balrog/palmte/prboom-16bit-blood.jpeg here fixed palette) May 09 02:28:49 neostrider: including 'bios' (u-boot) May 09 02:29:04 Slick, balrog-kun! May 09 02:29:13 are there better options for battery powered charging of Neo1973 than: http://www.ladyada.net/make/mintyboost/ May 09 02:29:39 battery powered USB hub, but I suspect this won't charge?: http://www.amazon.com/Cyber-Power-Battery-Powered-CP-H420MP/dp/B0002UQALQ May 09 02:33:54 aloril, how? May 09 02:34:37 neostrider: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile May 09 02:36:38 ooh, microSD 2GB ultra II is now locally available May 09 02:36:53 (28 EUR) May 09 02:37:14 nice - how many rewrites can those take? May 09 02:38:04 but how is the development inviroment like? May 09 02:38:26 you log into some scratchbox like or you call from your shell some special make? May 09 02:42:01 neostrider: later May 09 02:42:12 later! May 09 02:42:13 thanks! May 09 02:43:11 (neostrider: I meant you call make, though of course you can make chroot/some virtual environment for it too)) May 09 02:44:12 thanks!! May 09 02:45:19 so second-gen p0's shipped...great news May 09 02:45:26 was it announced anywhere? May 09 02:45:32 nope May 09 02:46:04 gabaug...how do you know that? May 09 02:46:52 neostrider: I got mine this evening :) May 09 02:47:17 there was something about 150 p0's going out May 09 02:47:18 and whats different about the second-gen from the first? May 09 02:47:27 just that there are more of em May 09 02:47:38 I'd assume the p0 hardware defects were fixed May 09 02:47:45 and it ships w/ much updated software May 09 02:47:48 yeah - these are v4 boards May 09 02:48:20 its P1, not P0 May 09 02:48:31 p0, p1 == neo ? May 09 02:48:37 i wonder if gta02v1 will have better luck than gta01v1 did... May 09 02:48:43 yeah May 09 02:48:54 those are release phases May 09 02:49:20 p0 iirc is gta01b v3, p1 v4, p1+ gta02v[whichever one works] May 09 02:49:21 rumors have it the P1 image suffers from b0rked kernel modules May 09 02:50:25 b0rked? May 09 02:50:27 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 May 09 02:50:29 non-working May 09 02:52:21 ok May 09 02:52:48 Px is the mass market Neo, X=? May 09 02:53:28 2 May 09 02:53:41 someone understood that heheh May 09 02:55:22 hmmm... i wonder what it would take to get a motion sensor in ;) May 09 02:56:27 do u mean an accelerometer? May 09 02:57:28 clay - basically... like the one the wiimote has May 09 02:58:25 yeah, that wouldn't be that difficult but it would cost more May 09 02:58:26 also in hardware P1+==P2 probably (unless some bug fixes like between P0 and P1?) May 09 02:59:16 chadp: there is place for SPI connector in PCB or something like that (P1) (IIRC) May 09 02:59:52 night! **** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 09 02:59:57 2007