**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 13 02:59:59 2007 May 13 04:11:19 counter May 13 04:11:19 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 15:54:19 (2.663 +-2.7 days) (1160;202) May 13 04:21:57 I just looked at the sample videos of the iPhone. The attention to detail of its UI is really impressive. I like the end of scrollable area bounce. May 13 05:57:25 counter? May 13 05:57:26 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 days 15:01:16 (2.626 +-2.6 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-14); 4 months, 3 days (126.252 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1161;202) May 13 06:53:15 good morning May 13 07:03:20 counter? May 13 07:03:21 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) source: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile ; P0: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:Neo1973_P0_Review; 2 days 14:28:18 (2.603 +-2.6 days) for devices for *ANYBODY* for $350 (targeting developers) (preorders: not yet) (2007-05-14); 4 months, 3 days (126.206 +-15.0 days) for mass market (2007-09-15): see topic for more info (1162;202) May 13 09:01:34 searching fulltext on the wiki yields no results May 13 09:01:38 is this a known problem? May 13 09:21:37 heureka, I'm getting fixes from the gps with gllin. May 13 09:21:45 looks like it indeed wasn't able to download indoors May 13 09:25:09 pH5: yay! May 13 09:26:24 ph5: very cool. how do you rate the reception of the gps? can you compare it to other GPS receivers? May 13 09:27:09 and could you update the wiki on how you've done it when you get the chance? May 13 09:27:32 "go outside. get fix" ;) May 13 09:27:39 can the hammerhead to updates faster than 1hz btw? May 13 09:27:51 * koen wonders about getting a strace May 13 09:28:06 s/to/do/ May 13 09:28:06 Lorphos meant: can the hammerhead do updates faster than 1hz btw? May 13 09:30:59 Lorphos: indoors it doesn't go faster than .2Hz, not sure about outdoors - could be that the periodic test I'm running is fixed to 1Hz. May 13 09:32:52 koen: we have a strace from hammerhead May 13 09:33:31 CoreDump|home: sure. it's just "cd /tmp; ~/DM2/gps/gllin -i" and then I ran the cold start + periodic fix test with "batch cold 1 1" May 13 09:33:47 pH5: thank! May 13 09:34:16 btw, gllin doesn't start if /tmp/nmeaNP already exists, so remove it if you started gllin before. May 13 09:34:45 koen: time to go for a walk :) May 13 09:37:26 Hopscotch: more and bigger straces :) May 13 09:37:29 pH5: :) May 13 09:37:48 right :) May 13 09:47:54 hoi May 13 09:47:55 hello room...big community May 13 09:52:16 looking around for openmoko for kyocera 7135 May 13 09:53:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation_HOWTO]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware]] [[Talk:Translation]] May 13 09:57:58 Basically not ATM May 13 09:58:29 ? May 13 09:58:30 Quiliro: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 13 09:58:48 Neo only at the moment May 13 10:01:29 thanks for the info speedevil...is there any other initiative i can look for to port my palm os in my kyocera 7135 smartphone to GNU plus Linux o another free OS? May 13 10:01:55 pH5: Have started you walk yet, or are you still around? May 13 10:02:19 Quiliro: port palmos? May 13 10:02:41 there's no source code for palmos, it can't be ported to anything May 13 10:04:36 balrog-kun: i mean change the OS May 13 10:05:22 balrog-kun: 7135 uses palm OS May 13 10:06:42 Quiliro: and you want to port Linux to the phone? May 13 10:06:52 Quiliro: what version of PalmOS does it run? May 13 10:07:30 balrog-kun: let me check May 13 10:09:53 it only matter if it's 4 or 5 - PalmOS 5 runs on ARM devices with an MMU and you can port linux to them almost for sure May 13 10:15:32 so the userspace gps daemon spits out NMEA right? May 13 10:19:38 balrog-kun: Phone software = MZ 1.0.44 , PDA software = SZ 1.0.29 , PRL = 4 May 13 10:19:56 thats what i found May 13 10:20:02 ill keep looking May 13 10:20:53 it's in the App Launcher in "About" i think May 13 10:21:32 if it has a colour display of at least 320x320 then it's PalmOS 5 May 13 10:29:21 yes its colour display...square May 13 10:54:48 sparq: total failure, I'll have to repeat. May 13 10:55:31 somehow gllin doesn't reset the gps properly. the second time I run gllin doesn't get replies from the gps and says something about gps hardware failure. May 13 10:55:44 the funny thing is if I run hhtest in-between, the next gllin run works again. May 13 10:56:23 pH5: gllin is now spitting out NMEA on the phone? May 13 10:56:33 SpeedEvil: yes. May 13 10:57:11 If so - nuking all the recent files that gllin has modified - to delete ephemiredes/... data, and a clean startup strace for a few min would be nice. May 13 10:57:24 I just unicycled around lake Schlachtensee to get a nice trace, but communication hung. May 13 10:57:34 I'll repeat that. May 13 10:57:53 gllin has nice cold/warm/hot start batch tests, we should try them all and compare May 13 10:57:54 On a desk'd work fine :) May 13 10:58:07 I don't get a signal indoors, at least not cold start. May 13 10:58:12 Ah May 13 10:58:12 Any new users have gotta wait till May to get their hands on a device right? I couldn't find that anywhere on the site... May 13 10:58:13 chmac: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 13 10:58:24 chmac: masybe a week May 13 10:58:30 Hmm. May 13 10:58:38 SpeedEvil: Hahaha, I forgot we're already in May! DOH May 13 10:58:53 ROTFL May 13 10:59:05 Ordering could start monday May 13 10:59:11 Perhaps. May 13 10:59:37 Great May 13 10:59:48 Will there be hardware changes between releases? May 13 11:00:06 I just scroogled for Linux based smartphones the other day and somebody responded to my blog saying check out OpenMoko May 13 11:00:14 It looks sweet as, I'd love to get my hands on one... May 13 11:00:28 I'm guessing it'll sync to a Linux desktop right? Unlike some of the others I've seen... :( May 13 11:00:47 At teh moment, the ansawer to all of the software questions is mostly 'if you write it'. May 13 11:01:09 It's basically an X box that'll fit in your pocket, and has marginal phone functionality in some apps. May 13 11:01:32 Ok, so it's definitely early adopter release at this point... May 13 11:01:38 The hardware, kernel works well. The phone apps are very much work in progress. May 13 11:01:39 Yeah. May 13 11:01:46 For example, I'm buying one. May 13 11:02:00 But only as it replaces several other devices I'd otherwise buy. May 13 11:02:03 Ok, I'm a bit strapped for cash at the moment, so I might hold off for a while until I get *really* sick of my treo... :) May 13 11:02:21 I can use megatunix, which is an engine control unit tuner, in a portable format. May 13 11:02:32 Actually in the car, without problems. May 13 11:02:50 Wow May 13 11:02:52 I can use it for logging data for openstreetmap, including GPS/... May 13 11:02:53 Cool May 13 11:03:06 I can use it as an mp3 player. May 13 11:04:05 And then I can add hardware to it. May 13 11:04:18 As it's got solderable-to SPI pads. May 13 11:04:32 It supports USB right, so in principle you could plug in stuff like a USB keyboard for sms / email / whatever May 13 11:04:34 So it might grow an accellerometer and ZigBee. May 13 11:04:36 Yes. May 13 11:04:48 Though a bluetooth keyboard is probably a better option. May 13 11:04:59 * chmac quickly googles zigbee to hide his ignorance... May 13 11:05:18 The USB port is completely unpowered. May 13 11:05:33 It will not run keyboards without an exterenal cable + power supply/battery May 13 11:06:02 Hmm,yeah so a bluetooth keyboard would work better May 13 11:06:08 http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Freedom-Mini-Bluetooth-Keyboard-uk-seller-in-stock_W0QQitemZ150121222476QQihZ005QQcategoryZ42393QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem May 13 11:06:12 Although I'm guessing it wouldn't really need a keyboard May 13 11:06:14 may be suitable, for example. May 13 11:06:19 Eventually, no. May 13 11:06:28 If you're programming on it, then probably. May 13 11:07:12 Yeah, I probably wouldn't be, I'm more of a web developer May 13 11:16:45 counter May 13 11:16:45 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 12:21:36 (2.515 +-2.5 days) (1163;202) May 13 11:17:14 mornin all May 13 11:17:32 morning morning May 13 11:17:45 well just about afternoon here May 13 11:17:47 2,5 days May 13 11:17:49 sounds good May 13 11:17:56 Maybe. May 13 11:18:07 I wouldn't be surprised at next monday, or the monday after May 13 11:18:19 The coming monday I mean May 13 11:18:21 2,5 sounds like wish May 13 11:18:36 SpeedEvil: just use different model for coding than for English: I think its possible to efficently input code too using only touch screen May 13 11:18:39 i hope it'll be sometime this week May 13 11:18:44 I'm really kind of afraid to ask... buuuut will that phone have the atheros interface in it? May 13 11:18:45 steveballmer: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.) May 13 11:18:50 I've put up straces of the serial communication tests #1 - #4 up at http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin/, real traces will follow once I have them. May 13 11:18:52 aloril2: Sure - just code it! :) May 13 11:19:05 ph4: Great! May 13 11:19:08 ph5: Great! May 13 11:19:15 real traces? May 13 11:19:29 SpeedEvil: please don't substract from me :D May 13 11:19:38 ph6: Great! May 13 11:19:49 SpeedEvil: those are just serial communication tests, nothing going on with the gps. May 13 11:19:54 Ah May 13 11:20:17 I guess there is nothing to learn except maybe read/write command packet numbers May 13 11:21:56 mikesh: yes, its (upper-lower)/2 = (5-0)/2 = whole range is optimistic guess May 13 11:23:01 so just to make sure I understood the wiki right: phase 1 which will be available very soon won't have wifi but phase 1+ in june will do? May 13 11:23:19 steveballmer: thats how i understand it May 13 11:23:40 well thanks speedevil will keep on looking for palmos replacement for kyocera 7135 smartphone...good luck May 13 11:23:54 hm I was hoping phase one will already have it :( May 13 11:23:56 I will keep on looking May 13 11:24:04 Quiliro: It basically needs someone to hack on the hardware May 13 11:24:05 so I will get a phase1+ May 13 11:24:27 If it's got enough ROM+RAM, then you could install OM on it if someone works out the hardware. May 13 11:24:31 steveballmer: that's what i'm waiting for, i think the release of Phase1 will carry news of phase1+ May 13 11:24:40 Yes. May 13 11:25:57 SpeedEvil: cool, exciting times May 13 11:26:24 SpeedEvil: im still a newbie....the most i know is how to compile...on my desktop...dont even know how to install the os on the device.....if you give me some pointers on how to start Illbe very thankfull May 13 11:26:40 16 MB May 13 11:27:04 Quiliro: what device do you have? May 13 11:27:05 That's almost certainly not enough RAM. May 13 11:27:19 If you don't know how to compile, it's not possible for you. May 13 11:27:28 oops - misread May 13 11:27:41 kyocera 7135 smartphone May 13 11:27:59 why does FIC not wait until they are ready to produce the phones with atheros wifi chipsets? May 13 11:28:05 At the moment, it's practically a case of 'if you have to ask, you can't.' as starting out figuring out hardware is almost something you have to have done first. May 13 11:28:14 steveballmer: the P1 is of use on its own. May 13 11:28:20 steveballmer: Even without wifi. May 13 11:29:29 i know how to compile May 13 11:29:36 SpeedEvil, Do you know how many units will be produced of that phase? May 13 11:29:42 steveballmer: Of P1? May 13 11:29:46 i dont know how to install the os on my smartphone May 13 11:29:56 Quiliro: You can't. May 13 11:30:11 Quiliro: You need to hack the bootloader of your device to load a random binary on it. May 13 11:30:25 You need to work out what CPU it has, and compile an OS for it. May 13 11:30:42 You need to write drivers for the touchscreen, modem, bluetooth, ... May 13 11:31:04 You need to slim down OM from the designed 128M memory footprint to 16 or so. May 13 11:31:13 Quiliro: sounds like you'd be better of putting it on ebay, and buying a neo May 13 11:31:19 Maybe in the future it'll be easy, but not now. May 13 11:31:38 OpenMoko has a 128MB footprint? May 13 11:31:52 Well. May 13 11:32:04 Probably not quite - but you know what I mean. May 13 11:32:06 ~68MB May 13 11:32:12 >>16 May 13 11:32:20 it works in 64MB with some luck May 13 11:32:21 arent there GNU distros that fit in a disquete? May 13 11:32:29 but gsmd and dialer should work in 16MB May 13 11:32:30 68MB is still quite big May 13 11:32:35 Quiliro: Sure. May 13 11:32:47 if you don't load the theme memory and cpu usage drops amazingly May 13 11:32:51 I've had recurring silly ideas of a ncurses touchscreen phone. May 13 11:32:53 Quiliro, I think they are talking about the RAM May 13 11:33:16 koen, can you make calls with command line in moko? May 13 11:33:28 yes May 13 11:33:33 alsamixer to setup the mixers May 13 11:33:35 lol ncurses phone May 13 11:33:38 minicom to talk to the modem May 13 11:33:38 haha May 13 11:33:52 full command line geekery May 13 11:34:05 the terminal has always been the most useful application May 13 11:34:25 great....Angstrom/Zaurus and OM ship w/ identical usb0 IPs.... May 13 11:34:51 CoreDump|home, identical with what? May 13 11:35:05 with each other May 13 11:35:28 Quiliro: maybe look into this: http://hardware.slashdot.org/article.pl?sid=07/05/08/137238&from=rss May 13 11:35:29 kyocera 7135 uses Palm OSŪ 4.1 software May 13 11:35:32 well I can normally setup my usb ip settings May 13 11:35:40 CoreDump|home: virtually every OE device does that :( May 13 11:35:42 like for any other interface CoreDump|home May 13 11:35:46 or what do you mean? May 13 11:35:58 koen: we should split that on a per-device basis maybe? May 13 11:36:07 thks webjames May 13 11:36:14 OM has zeroconf installed, angstrom has avahi, so I think we should ship avahi-autoipd and start using zeroconf. May 13 11:36:17 CoreDump|home: that or just let avashi-autoipd handle it May 13 11:36:30 koen: I violently agree. May 13 11:36:31 pH5, ugh I hate avahi May 13 11:36:35 stefan_schmidt: if course you can change the IPs once you get a connection May 13 11:37:01 I saw the avashi thingy on connect May 13 11:37:02 steveballmer: there are other zeroconf auto-ip implementations May 13 11:37:13 * pH5 likes avahi though May 13 11:37:17 ph5 personnaly I don't like zeroconf at all May 13 11:37:30 kyocera 7135 uses 33 MHz DragonBall?MZ May 13 11:37:46 and can use sd ram May 13 11:37:47 steveballmer: in your opinion, is there a better alternative? May 13 11:37:48 Ah. That's _not_ going to run OM anytime soon. May 13 11:37:59 it kept messing up my ifconfig in ubuntu unitl I got rid of it May 13 11:38:12 It's around 1/10th the power of the CPU in the neo. May 13 11:39:32 Quiliro: you could run openmoko in qemu if you're interested to see what it's like May 13 11:40:12 pH5, I don't know much about zeroconf except that it is confusing my whole network settings on my desktop system and angstrom and I also heard it is very unsecure May 13 11:40:18 (avahi) May 13 11:40:25 hmmmm.....ok will investigate qemu guys thanks May 13 11:40:36 "unsecure" May 13 11:40:43 heh May 13 11:40:53 koen, ? May 13 11:41:08 am I wrong? May 13 11:41:13 yes May 13 11:41:22 pH5: koen unless your dhcp-replacements can dynamically update my DNS so I can use hostnames, I don't see a benefit over static IPs on USB May 13 11:41:56 someone with arpping can do the same on your network May 13 11:42:06 CoreDump|home: it isn't a dhcp replacement May 13 11:42:12 yes what's the benefit regarding zeroconf? May 13 11:42:14 it kicks in when dchp fails May 13 11:42:33 USB shouldn't use DHCP in the first place heh May 13 11:42:43 koen, and what does it try then after dhcp failed? May 13 11:42:44 Quiliro: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/MokoMakefile and click QEMU May 13 11:43:22 btw: the openmoko onscreen keyboard looks cute but is unusable. It doesn't even have arrow-keys :\ May 13 11:43:23 * koen hands steveballmer http://avahi.org/ May 13 11:43:35 CoreDump|home: ACK! May 13 11:43:37 CoreDump|home: or a tab key May 13 11:43:42 yeah May 13 11:43:56 Quiliro: basic steps are: get the Mokomakefile, then do 'make setup' then 'make qemu' May 13 11:44:04 also placing numbers / symbols / letters on different screens like that makes using it in the shell very painful. May 13 11:44:07 I also dislike the tiny keys with huge spacing May 13 11:44:13 koen, for example, when I had a bad 802.11 connection that pinged out here and now and I had to restart the interfaces and get a new ip avahi was really annoying May 13 11:44:14 right May 13 11:44:27 looks like a designer hacked it May 13 11:44:37 koen there is another more fully features keyboard May 13 11:44:49 CoreDump|home: to make it worse, it's a fork of matchbox-keyboard May 13 11:44:55 still doesn't have the up down arrows though May 13 11:44:58 sigh May 13 11:45:00 CoreDump|home: so it will be unsupported in a few weeks May 13 11:45:06 will try webjames...thks May 13 11:45:41 webjames: indeed! It has arrowkeys May 13 11:45:55 koen: they ship the default matchbox kbd as well May 13 11:46:21 CoreDump|home: although might be two small for fingers, i guess that's why there's two, one for texting, one for console May 13 11:46:26 ok forget it, the keys don't work :\ May 13 11:46:29 where "few weeks" is "$hacker in shanghai get a new job leaving an undocumented fork" May 13 11:46:41 CoreDump|home, the matchbox-keyboard doesn't have arrows either. seams like that's usual May 13 11:46:57 matchboxkeyboard has arrow buttons May 13 11:47:00 CoreDump|home: i'm just about to run it and find out May 13 11:47:01 steveballmer: in the lower right May 13 11:47:14 <>^ keys May 13 11:47:29 the layout was done before it supported arbritrary shapes May 13 11:47:36 webjames, there are none May 13 11:47:45 webjames: you can switch from OM kbd to MB kbd via the right side of the "white" icon next to the OM menu May 13 11:48:06 steveballmer: arrows, i thought not, however there are still two keyboards right? one finger and one for a stylus i guess May 13 11:48:20 webjames, what distro? May 13 11:48:25 but the terminal is f*cked up, it doesn't handle backspace or the arrow keys grr May 13 11:48:31 angstrom? May 13 11:48:45 how will OpenMoko be able to scale to other mobile phones than the neo if everything is absolutely positioned? May 13 11:48:50 steveballmer: i'm just making the latest now i'll see May 13 11:49:43 webjames, ah I have a one only few days old and just discovered that there _are_ two. I thought that it was a bug displaying it 2x May 13 11:49:54 but the one for stylus has arrows. May 13 11:49:57 loufoque: hmm, good point i guess it will have to be compatible with only certain resolutions May 13 11:50:23 * koen wonders about the "keyboard for fingers" May 13 11:50:26 steveballmer: i think i remember the one for the stylus has arrows, i'm just making now May 13 11:50:28 loufoque: it's our responsibility to kick the programmers until it isn't anymore. May 13 11:50:38 ok, launching "x-terminal-emulator" via the retarded OM terminal opens a working xterm May 13 11:50:39 I guess I should sharpen my fingers May 13 11:50:57 koen, if you have small fingers it is just ok May 13 11:51:05 but already severe May 13 11:51:14 pH5, so it could be relative? May 13 11:51:15 * koen doesn't have small fingers May 13 11:51:40 CoreDump|home: and how do you input stuff in xterm with your phone? May 13 11:51:49 webjames: yes. some time in the future... May 13 11:52:03 loufoque: the onscreen keyboard we were talking about May 13 11:52:20 koen, also if your finger tips are 3x bigger than the buttons, you can still hit them but it's not easy and requires a bit training May 13 11:52:21 so there is no smarter inputting method than the onscreen keyboard? May 13 11:52:22 I'm just trying to fix the IP for USB0 so I can ssh into it May 13 11:52:44 loufoque: one could use a BT keyboard but I don't have one May 13 11:52:49 loufoque: atm there is two onscreen keyboards one more fully featured that the other, however with more buttons makes the keys smaller May 13 11:52:49 but a stylus is better anyways May 13 11:53:05 CoreDump|home: that's why angstrom images ship gpe-conf for openmoko :) May 13 11:53:17 what about T9-like solutions? May 13 11:53:18 a sucky config panel is still better than no config panel May 13 11:53:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]] May 13 11:53:27 koen May 13 11:53:34 for example, make "qwer" a single key May 13 11:53:42 koen, all you need it to grow your nails and then cut the sides off, giving your a weird pointer May 13 11:53:44 then use heuristics May 13 11:54:03 or morse input May 13 11:54:03 koen: I'll build and install th angstrom image on the P0 when I get the chance. The fact that OM is ro is starting to annoy me May 13 11:54:09 pH5: morse is slow May 13 11:54:15 loufoque, t9 would be to uncomfortable for a smart phone I think :) May 13 11:54:28 pH5: people don't know morse well May 13 11:55:02 hexinput is what i'm thinking...and maybe some outcomplete. it's easy enough for people to learn from previous experience and also provides faster input than regular keyboard May 13 11:55:03 when i try and run it in qemu it doesn't run just says QEMU - Stopped May 13 11:55:14 steveballmer: something like T9 but instead of having a key for "abc", another for "def" etc. make it more like a real keyboard May 13 11:55:15 loufoque: people don't know morse - period. :) May 13 11:55:20 looking at all those teenagers bing faster with t9 than with a regular keyboard, it might be an option even for the desktop May 13 11:55:29 steveballmer: the larger the keys are, the easier it is to hit them May 13 11:55:43 loufoque: morse only needs one button ;) May 13 11:55:57 recognizing morse is a bitch May 13 11:55:58 pH5: shame i don't know it May 13 11:56:12 especially with traditional keying May 13 11:56:15 Recognising good morse is trivial. May 13 11:56:21 loufoque, there are some smart phones that have such keypads as you explained May 13 11:56:36 with one button for dit, another one for dah it would be easier May 13 11:56:41 SpeedEvil: trust me, it isn't May 13 11:56:45 SpeedEvil: for Morse you could have a blue-tooth Morse in putter clicker thingy May 13 11:57:08 loufoque, I don't know how that make things smaller. you still need to put all chars May 13 11:57:09 and again, trust me, it isn't as fast as you think :) May 13 11:57:09 I keep thinking of ZigBee. May 13 11:57:27 You get a micro, and RF interface for $3. May 13 11:57:36 Ideal for switchy things. May 13 11:58:00 steveballmer: sure, but the key becomes larger, so you don't have to be as accurate to hit it May 13 11:58:23 loufoque, why would they become larger? you don't have less keys as you explained it May 13 11:58:31 if i got you right May 13 11:58:31 SpeedEvil: have you actually investigated morse recognition algorithms? May 13 11:58:48 guaqua: No - it seems like it should be easy. If it's not, I believe you May 13 11:58:56 i'm sure the best thing would be to have a laser keyboard bluetooth that you could carry around if you needed to input larger portions of text May 13 11:59:07 tyhe laser bluetootht hting sucs May 13 11:59:13 looks cool, but. May 13 11:59:17 human keying is waaay harder to recognize May 13 11:59:23 SpeedEvil: that's a shame May 13 11:59:28 lots of fuzzy logic and all that jazz May 13 11:59:42 steveballmer: instead of having "q", "w", "e", "r", "t", "y", "u", "i", "o", "p" you could just have two keys, "qwert" and "yuiop". May 13 11:59:44 Learning the fist I suppose would be needed. May 13 11:59:46 yeah QEMU is failing when it worked two days ago - QEMU [Stopped] May 13 12:00:09 loufoque, ah now I know what you mean. normal keyboard order but not the cell phone style May 13 12:01:03 webjames: probably this one: http://svnweb.openmoko.org/?rev=1948&view=rev May 13 12:01:12 that would be interesting to try- but if you chose such a solution , I think peoeple would rather preffer the keyboard style they are used to speaking of t9 May 13 12:01:17 from their cell phones May 13 12:01:36 koen, that looks like it May 13 12:01:51 t9 is copyright i think May 13 12:01:57 It is. May 13 12:02:01 webjames: I'm confident balrog-kun will fix it soon May 13 12:02:03 t9 on steroids...better heuristics, easy way of inserting new words and choosing from alternatives - would be great and not that hard to implement May 13 12:02:30 but the thing is - as long as we don't call it t9 and it isn't distributed by fic is it actually illegal? May 13 12:02:42 guaqua: i agree that would make it easier to finger press, and more like a traditional cell phone May 13 12:02:55 or moreso, would there be legal action? May 13 12:03:30 * SpeedEvil has been wondering about a stroke-based input http://www.mail-archive.com/community@lists.openmoko.org/msg03938.html May 13 12:03:40 i guess how could it be, if someone can rip ms windiz off then surly if we designed a similar input method it would be illegal? May 13 12:03:47 anybody tried werner almesberger's inwheel idea? May 13 12:04:45 inwheel? May 13 12:04:57 balrog-kun: qemu error http://dpaste.com/10198/ hope this helps May 13 12:04:59 webjames: illegal yes, but if there is no entity actually getting money from it and distributing how can they sue? this is basically a philosophical argument about software patents now May 13 12:05:00 pH5: it requires cpp on the host... May 13 12:06:18 guaqua: couldn't they sue for loss of sales due to people using the free alternative? May 13 12:06:45 who are they going to sue? May 13 12:07:05 the programmer who coded the alternative? May 13 12:07:07 guaqua: whoever made it May 13 12:07:19 i don't think that's possible May 13 12:07:55 i didn't think it was possible for a burglar to sue me for defending my property but it happens May 13 12:09:44 Quiliro: atm qemu doesn't work May 13 12:10:15 pH5, what's inwheel? May 13 12:10:53 SpeedEvil: http://ieeexplore.ieee.org/iel5/86/18783/00867882.pdf May 13 12:11:01 morning May 13 12:11:07 it'd be interesting to implement this :) May 13 12:11:08 steveballmer: an input method idea, it's somewhere on the openmoko-devel list. May 13 12:11:11 steveballmer: http://www.mail-archive.com/openmoko-devel@lists.openmoko.org/msg00450.html May 13 12:12:00 webjames, what is required to compile it? May 13 12:12:29 steveballmer: no idea i'm sorry, maybe more info in the file? May 13 12:12:50 does om use x11? May 13 12:13:13 does the faq have answers? May 13 12:13:14 * steveballmer ducks May 13 12:13:21 lol May 13 12:14:17 koen: only smarties have the answer May 13 12:15:59 it would be nice when someone types 'counter' if aloril would send them a PM instead May 13 12:16:30 steveballmer: yes May 13 12:16:32 faq? May 13 12:16:32 See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ May 13 12:20:14 May 13 12:20:32 May 13 12:27:34 later May 13 12:36:42 * CoreDump|home believes he just got a GPS lock May 13 12:36:57 CoreDump|home: nice.. very nice.. May 13 12:36:59 !lart gllin for being a PITA May 13 12:37:01 * cdbot2 cats /dev/urandom into gllin for being a PITA's ear May 13 12:42:31 CoreDump|home: I can feel your pain :P May 13 12:43:10 hmm, while decoding the nmea data I noticed that I did not get a lock yet May 13 12:43:22 pH5: only +pty works here.... May 13 12:45:37 brb May 13 12:52:17 ok, I finally got an indoor lock May 13 12:54:58 CoreDump|home: cool, looks like openmoko gps is getting somewhere May 13 12:55:07 I hope so =) May 13 12:55:20 I'm trying to validate the GPS data May 13 12:58:04 anyone know a way to map GPS coordinates to a map? May 13 12:59:08 CoreDump|home: maps.google.com May 13 12:59:29 openstreetmap also May 13 12:59:35 I was reading their "Help" page but didn't spot anything May 13 12:59:52 http://maps.google.com?q=lat/lon May 13 13:00:09 although no good if someone hasn't mapped your area yet, but if they had sign up and click edit and you can see their gps coordinates May 13 13:00:54 CoreDump|home: you should be around 51 degrees/7 degrees May 13 13:01:23 Hopscotch: doesn't work for me =( May 13 13:01:29 koen: sounds good May 13 13:01:48 CoreDump|home: where should you be May 13 13:02:00 http://maps.google.com/maps?f=q&hl=nl&q=koeln,+germany&ie=UTF8&ll=50.94545,6.959839&spn=0.104912,0.312767&t=h&z=12&iwloc=addr&om=1 May 13 13:02:13 change the coords in the url to check May 13 13:02:32 CoreDump|home: this is where my desc is: http://maps.google.com/?q=49.815777/9.965808 May 13 13:02:58 you need to calc decimal numbers - gps uses some kind of degrees.minutessecodesfrac May 13 13:03:00 holdon, looks like the NMEA data has the decimal point wrong May 13 13:03:34 nmea use degrees, minutes, seconds iirc May 13 13:03:34 deg.mmssff where mm = minutes from 00-59, ss = seconds from 00-59 and ff = 00-99 (fractions of a second) May 13 13:04:16 http://rafb.net/p/OISeRk82.html May 13 13:04:23 that's my coordinates May 13 13:04:31 please don't nuke it =) May 13 13:05:07 hehe May 13 13:05:16 that looks indeed a bit off May 13 13:05:33 dunno if nmea uses that to avoid floating points May 13 13:06:11 http://rafb.net/p/AT2gIO51.html <- NMEA fix May 13 13:07:56 i'm not sure howto reverse lookup your coordinates on google, if you could do that you could see how your results translate May 13 13:07:56 wow NMEA format is way retarded, w/ moving dec point and all May 13 13:07:59 * Hopscotch has now google earth on his tomtom go May 13 13:09:21 I wonder when someone will run tomtom software on neo (after ripping it from hammerhead powered device) May 13 13:09:50 hrw: I would love to have commercial navigation on neo May 13 13:09:58 CoreDump|home: so do I May 13 13:10:20 CoreDump|home: friend recently shown me tomtom on his HTC Artemis - simple and easy soft May 13 13:10:22 it would be lovely May 13 13:10:28 usable on 2.8" qvga screen May 13 13:10:37 I talked to a TomTom employee last week and he said "not likely, unless there's a big demand for it" May 13 13:10:43 =( May 13 13:10:53 and tomtom is quite cheap. my part of europe is 70 eur May 13 13:11:15 i guess tomtom on the neo is no problem May 13 13:11:25 CoreDump|home: http://maps.google.com/?q=50.8594255832/7.1141237776 May 13 13:11:30 CoreDump|home: is that better? May 13 13:12:25 Hopscotch: that is a bloody perfect match May 13 13:12:32 * CoreDump|home hides in his bomb shelter May 13 13:12:33 gotcha :) May 13 13:12:43 here's the formula: May 13 13:12:51 50+(51/60)+(33/3600)+0.9321/3600=50.8594255832 May 13 13:12:58 7+(6/60)+(50/3600)+0.8456/3600=7.1141237776 May 13 13:13:33 Hopscotch: wow May 13 13:13:43 but it is a little bit off I notice May 13 13:13:43 so we have a gps fix from the neo? May 13 13:13:43 yay May 13 13:13:53 mjr: indeed =) May 13 13:13:55 CoreDump|home: if i switch to satellite it looks like you're right in the corner of the building May 13 13:14:15 webjames: the fix is very close, but not a match :( May 13 13:14:40 CoreDump|home: how far out is it? May 13 13:15:05 I'm looking for better coordinates May 13 13:15:22 having to locate my house "from orbit" is a funny thing to do =) May 13 13:15:45 yeah, i don't know how to lock in and get coordinates from google maps though May 13 13:16:18 same here =) May 13 13:16:38 put it in the center and inspect the "link to this page" link May 13 13:16:48 the position is a bit off tot the east May 13 13:16:55 N/S is about right May 13 13:17:14 use googleearth and watch the coordinates under the mouse pointer May 13 13:17:23 ahh... May 13 13:17:54 koen: that link does nothing :\ May 13 13:18:32 it contains the coordinates May 13 13:18:54 i couldn't find coordinates from the link May 13 13:19:33 Hopscotch: got a link for that? May 13 13:19:45 CoreDump|home: for google earth? May 13 13:19:50 yeah May 13 13:20:02 you need to download that May 13 13:20:04 never used it =) May 13 13:20:08 err... May 13 13:20:15 http://earth.google.com/ May 13 13:20:26 that things one of the best web services _ever_ May 13 13:20:40 most linux distros have some kind of package for it May 13 13:20:45 if you're not under windows... May 13 13:21:03 * koen has used it ever since keyhole made it available for download May 13 13:21:13 * Hopscotch is now off for a walk now May 13 13:21:15 counter May 13 13:21:15 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 11:19:21 (2.472 +-2.5 days) (1164;202) May 13 13:21:21 * Hopscotch has a new working version of gaia :) May 13 13:21:25 CoreDump|home: if you have ati card then GE does not work with fglrx May 13 13:21:37 hrw: yes, it does (here) May 13 13:21:47 hrw: got an nvidia but am not motivated to install GE May 13 13:22:02 CoreDump|home: try it - it's really a perk May 13 13:22:07 koens trick with the link worked, I just need to extract the coordinates May 13 13:22:24 Hopscotch: ?? which ati card? which fglrx release? May 13 13:22:31 is the format of maps.google.com q parameter the same as the ll parameter? May 13 13:23:02 * koen wants maemo-mapper on his neo May 13 13:23:21 hrw: gentoo ~x86, 8.35.5, ATI Technologies Inc Radeon Mobility X1400 May 13 13:23:55 dumb question, looks like it is. May 13 13:24:43 50.857892,7.107741 May 13 13:24:54 that's a close estimate on my pos May 13 13:25:00 this is my coordinates: 51.740459/-1.233707 but the q=51.740459/-1.233707 doesn't work, just a heads up May 13 13:25:23 s/\/, May 13 13:26:07 CoreDump|home: so a ~400m error May 13 13:26:34 could be a bad signal, error in Hopscotch' math or a buggy gllin May 13 13:26:38 CoreDump|home: were you inside when you took them, could that make a difference? May 13 13:26:38 hmm. the error estimates ranged between 5m outdoors and 50m indoors here. May 13 13:26:47 yeah, I'm indoors May 13 13:27:15 you could try taking a reading outside? May 13 13:27:27 I'm writing a script to convert NMEA to the dec format May 13 13:27:45 CoreDump|home: gpsbabel May 13 13:28:39 koen: thanks May 13 13:29:11 * koen prefers gpx over nmea May 13 13:31:24 * CoreDump|home curses May 13 13:33:19 koen: do you know the format-name for the dec coordinates by chance? May 13 13:33:52 I always use gpx, why has: May 13 13:33:58 May 13 13:35:43 * koen checks where that is May 13 13:35:50 ah, near my parents house May 13 13:36:00 * CoreDump|home bitbakes gpsbabel May 13 13:37:50 gpx is xml, btw, so quite easy to transform May 13 13:38:00 and it's the de-facto standard May 13 13:38:37 nmea is only interesting to get info about the satelites as well as your position May 13 13:39:22 hm, gps fixes are timestamped in GMT, but my neo clock is running at GMT-7h11min May 13 13:39:42 doesn't ntp have a nmea plugin as well ? May 13 13:45:27 Yes. May 13 13:45:29 ntpd May 13 13:45:38 uhm google earth works on my ati x1400 May 13 13:45:44 I think gpsd comes with a trivial app. May 13 13:46:12 it is even much faster than on windows May 13 13:46:26 What rendering path does it use on windows? May 13 13:48:08 i dont think its the fault of the app as much as the general suckiness of vista May 13 13:48:09 does nmea ntp depend on the pps signal on the serial port's dcd or is that optional? May 13 13:48:22 buz: Apparently the opengl version runs much slower on windows May 13 13:48:43 ayan4m1: everything runs much slower on vista May 13 13:48:51 i cant figure out just what ms did 5 years May 13 13:48:59 UAC, pretty much May 13 13:49:08 sudo plus gui takes 5 years? May 13 13:49:19 buz: watching porn May 13 13:49:45 pH5: "The NMEA drivers supports the PPS signal. I believe that the convention is that you connect it to the DCD pin on the serial port." May 13 13:49:56 From an ntp mailing list May 13 13:50:04 buz: Apparently May 13 13:50:21 In this case irrelevant - there is no DCD pin May 13 13:50:27 oh and a very rudimentary version of compiz May 13 13:50:38 SpeedEvil: that's why I'm asking - will it work without? May 13 13:50:41 Yes May 13 13:50:43 ok May 13 13:50:45 which david reveman wrote in what? 4 months? May 13 13:50:56 you can connect GPSd to gpgll - then ntp to gpsd May 13 13:51:02 you may not get ideal precision. May 13 13:51:09 But do you care if the clock wanders .1s May 13 13:51:13 (ok to be fair, aero seems stable which is not entirely true of neither xgl or nor aiglx)) May 13 13:53:04 From what I can find it's not required May 13 13:53:10 To use the dcd May 13 13:53:54 You can also use a pin on a parallel port, if that's an option and you want the pps May 13 13:55:58 buz: Yeah there really isn't a reason for XP users to upgrade, it's just some eye candy and a few useless features May 13 13:56:18 buz: Hopefully winfs can make it worth the upgrade May 13 13:56:31 i doubt it May 13 13:57:19 webjames: this works too: /msg aloril counter May 13 13:58:12 aloril2, ermm thanks.. May 13 13:59:00 ayan4m1: as it stands, vista on a brandnew core 2 duo 2ghz is slower than xp on my trusty old pentium m May 13 13:59:39 buz: Yeah, I don't quite understand it... thus far I haven't been asked to develop anything targeted to it so I'm happy May 13 13:59:55 buz: which is also true for linux, but the change went a bit more gradually May 13 14:00:14 * CoreDump|home gives up on gpsbabel May 13 14:00:21 koen: actually, kde runs a lot faster on the new machine than on the old May 13 14:00:35 (to be fair, xp actually felt snappier than kde on the old one) May 13 14:00:37 buz: kde from 5 years ago? May 13 14:00:42 kde 3.5.6 May 13 14:00:45 CoreDump|home: What didn't work? May 13 14:01:00 it won't print coordinates May 13 14:01:34 Does it find the hardware? May 13 14:01:51 it reads from a file, h/w doesn't matter May 13 14:01:56 Oh ok May 13 14:02:12 a little scripting should do the trick May 13 14:02:45 Is there any concrete list of things that need doing? May 13 14:02:49 With openmoko May 13 14:03:37 * koen wished people would use proper forms of 'to send' in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hammerhead_protocol May 13 14:04:15 so the drivers are accurate to 400m? that's mostly useless May 13 14:04:17 is "send packet 00" really "send packet 00" or "sent packet 00" May 13 14:04:27 ? May 13 14:04:41 Well if it's received May 13 14:04:45 Then it should be sent May 13 14:04:57 right May 13 14:04:59 Unless it's being described as a timeline May 13 14:05:00 As in May 13 14:05:11 "I send packet 0, I received packet 54 May 13 14:05:12 buz: nahh, I'm indoors May 13 14:05:30 But sent/received makes more sense in both instances May 13 14:06:17 well, some portions in the wiki don't make sense whichever way you spell 'sent' :( May 13 14:07:36 gah, I rubbed my eyes May 13 14:07:51 after having sliced peppers May 13 14:08:56 ouch May 13 14:09:13 keeps you awake :) May 13 14:09:35 koen: do that once a day and you soon immune to pepper spray May 13 14:10:17 that reminds me, I still have to sign up for the pepperspray test May 13 14:10:37 I'm really curious how bad it hurts May 13 14:10:46 i wouldnt try that May 13 14:10:59 friend of mine once sprayed it on his hands, got quite bad burn like symptoms May 13 14:11:15 watching a whole class of police cadets getting sprayed is hilarious however May 13 14:11:32 lol, amen to that May 13 14:11:56 do they also shoot them? May 13 14:12:22 no, they still need them in one piece May 13 14:13:15 it's nice to see arrogant 17 year olds with a uniform and gun seeing transformed into polite people :) May 13 14:13:40 polite people? dutch police must be truly special then May 13 14:14:25 the after effects of the pepperspray makes them quite meek May 13 14:14:34 for a while May 13 14:14:39 yeah May 13 14:14:46 probably wears off before they get out of academy May 13 14:15:04 it wears of in a few hours May 13 14:15:06 no phone in sight ;( May 13 14:15:48 buz: that's because they apply it using suppositories when they graduate... hence why cops are such a pain May 13 14:17:03 never ascribe to malice what can explained by simple stupidity May 13 14:20:15 * Stephmw points to the cynic's motto: "always ascribe to malice unless stupidity can be proven" May 13 14:22:22 mhh that one is not so bad either ;) May 13 14:53:28 webjames: still there? May 13 14:53:40 balrog-kun: yes May 13 14:54:05 webjames: looks like qemu is not running at all, it terminates immediately as if the executable wasn't there May 13 14:54:43 i have not changed anything and it was running fine on thursday, i don't think it is qemu May 13 14:55:11 on friday i updated the whole thing to 0.9.0 May 13 14:55:20 there was 30 MB of changes :) May 13 14:55:32 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/System_Developer doesn't even mention dfu-util May 13 14:55:44 is it an oversight, old page, ? May 13 14:56:21 i did, make update-makefile, make update, make setup, make qemu May 13 14:56:41 webjames: can you check if /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/openmoko/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm exist? May 13 14:56:55 errr, not this May 13 14:57:08 /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm this May 13 14:57:40 this exists: /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/arm-softmmu May 13 14:57:51 but not qemu-system-arm? May 13 14:57:59 is the directory empty or something? May 13 14:58:09 hmm May 13 14:58:14 /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu/openmoko/arm-softmmu this dir has lots in May 13 14:58:45 oh, hmm May 13 14:59:07 maybe MokoMakefile does something with the paths - i've never used MokoMakefile May 13 14:59:31 maybe is needs an upgrade after your 30meg change around May 13 15:00:09 very likely :) May 13 15:00:40 i'll find out if this is the case May 13 15:03:38 the script is extremely complex May 13 15:03:42 the one in MokoMakefile May 13 15:03:54 yes, i was just looking May 13 15:04:06 it did work very well May 13 15:05:53 balrog-kun: http://www.rwhitby.net/ May 13 15:06:03 balrog-kun: what changes have you made? May 13 15:06:34 i thought that nothing that could affect the build process May 13 15:06:54 there was a ton of changes (four months worth) May 13 15:07:29 hmm... but no structure changes? May 13 15:08:07 none that i can tell, here the procedure is exactly the same May 13 15:09:28 weird, i have just tried running it again, i don't seem to get any errors until i goto build the qemu May 13 15:09:57 this seems to be the error that is breaking it: openmoko/flash.sh: line 85: kill: (17283) - No such process May 13 15:10:09 on any case it doesn't look like anything serious, probably paths messup May 13 15:10:13 *in May 13 15:11:46 webjames: could you try running a couple of commands that i would paste? May 13 15:12:04 sure the build dir is /home/james/Openmoko btw May 13 15:12:42 ok May 13 15:13:11 top May 13 15:13:16 ups May 13 15:14:52 webjames: cd /home/james/OpenMoko/build/qemu ; arm-softmmu/qemu-system-arm -M neo -m 130 -mtdblock openmoko/openmoko-flash.image -kernel u-boot.bin -serial stdio May 13 15:15:17 if it launches u-boot correctly hit Ctrl+C to kill it May 13 15:15:48 i get the same QEMU [Stopped] in the title bar of a blank screen May 13 15:16:34 ok, then it seems the executable is there, it just stops for some reason May 13 15:17:11 balrog-kun: it would seem to, something to do with flash.sh path? May 13 15:18:29 webjames: can you press ctrl-alt-2 in that window and type "c [enter]" May 13 15:19:32 balrog-kun: i'm getting nothing May 13 15:19:57 my processor is at 50% though May 13 15:20:49 strange, are you on a 32bit or 64bit OS May 13 15:20:54 32bit May 13 15:22:54 maybe i messed up something in the watchdog timer related to 32 bits (no 32 bits machien to test) May 13 15:22:57 Ubunt 7.04 using bash May 13 15:23:27 is there any more feedback i could give you to help? May 13 15:24:09 probably nope May 13 15:24:13 kernel: 2.6.20-15-generic May 13 15:24:43 balrog-kun: would it work in dash as well as bash? May 13 15:26:38 webjames: i heard reports that i doesn't work with dash May 13 15:26:50 personally i've never seen dash and don't know where it came from May 13 15:27:26 balrog-kun: yeah, i'm sure i'm using bash though, and i've not had a problem before so it can't be that anyway May 13 15:27:52 balrog-kun: "doesn't work with dash" always means "buggy script" May 13 15:28:09 if you depend on bash-isms, the shebang should be #!/bin/bash May 13 15:28:17 koen: well, it's a bash scrpt, it's not an sh script May 13 15:28:37 koen: right, but i hear ubuntu now has /bin/bash symlinked to dash May 13 15:28:54 AFAIK only /bin/sh May 13 15:29:02 sudo apt-get remove dash May 13 15:29:10 apt-get install bash May 13 15:29:11 *g* May 13 15:29:16 guaqua: that's a hack, not a solution May 13 15:29:17 err May 13 15:29:19 remove :) May 13 15:29:26 sudo apt-get remove dash May 13 15:29:33 try this: sudo dpkg-reconfigure dash May 13 15:29:39 dpkg --purge dash? May 13 15:29:52 i have no use for dash, therefore i rather just remove it May 13 15:29:53 update-alternatives --config bash? May 13 15:29:57 haha May 13 15:30:02 and select 'no' May 13 15:30:12 koen: the shebang has #! /usr/bin/env bash May 13 15:30:37 balrog-kun: right, so "doesn't work with dash" actaully means "PEBKAC" May 13 15:31:18 webjames: one thing you could try is edit hw/s3c2410.c and comment out line 2396, that would rule out the watchdog timer May 13 15:31:19 dash is great for spotting bashisms that busybox ash chokes on May 13 15:34:38 these script are temporary and are only useful on desktops so i don't see the need to spot bashisms, it's a bash script, it's supposed to have bashisms :) May 13 15:34:58 right :) May 13 15:36:51 well if this helps: make update: http://dpaste.com/10204/ make setup: http://dpaste.com/10205/ and make qemu: http://dpaste.com/10206/ , i'll now try commenting out line 2396 May 13 15:42:49 balrog-kun: okay, i just changed it and then ran make setup, and it reverted back to the old file May 13 15:43:24 oh, make setup probably fetches the sources from svn May 13 15:43:40 i'll just run make qemu then May 13 15:45:03 i'm still getting the openmoko/flash.sh: line 85: kill: (19908) - No such process error when i run it May 13 15:46:07 does it also say [Stopped] in the window caption? May 13 15:46:12 yes May 13 15:47:00 i think i will have to try that myself in a 32bit VM one day May 13 15:47:42 webjames: thanks for help debugging this May 13 15:47:53 balrog-kun: If you change the symlink from dash to bash it works fine, I didn't need to change anything else May 13 15:48:37 ayan4m1: nice, i wonder why they ubuntu made the switch May 13 15:48:45 s/they // May 13 15:48:45 balrog-kun meant: ayan4m1: nice, i wonder why ubuntu made the switch May 13 15:49:13 Yeah I'm not exactly sure May 13 15:49:28 * koen checks his ubuntu machine May 13 15:49:39 sh is a symlink for dash and bash is bash May 13 15:49:53 how does that cause problems? May 13 15:50:04 balrog-kun: i changed the line 2396 in both files hw/s3c2410.c and hw/.svn/text-base/s3c2410.c.svn-base and made the latter read only, so it doesn't restore the original and it still fails May 13 15:50:40 koen: If you try and run mokomakefile in dash perl gets messed up May 13 15:51:17 right May 13 15:51:22 I don't run the makefile May 13 15:51:25 Oh heh May 13 15:51:38 the makefile is for lazy people May 13 15:51:50 Yeah I was considering doing it from source May 13 15:51:59 But I had just spent several hours trying to compile evemon under mono May 13 15:52:09 well so is a supermarket if you look at it in a certain way May 13 15:52:32 Well the difference is the quality May 13 15:52:45 Some people say that food you grow yourself is better, I personally can't see a difference May 13 15:52:55 But with the makefile I'm sure there are some minute details you can't control May 13 15:53:03 That you can if you personally build the entire environment May 13 15:53:04 also if i grew my own food i'd starve May 13 15:53:08 Haha May 13 15:53:11 That too May 13 15:53:17 there's a middle way May 13 15:53:26 go to the butcher, bakery, etc May 13 15:53:38 koen, yes that is true May 13 15:53:58 koen, but they've all shut down around here May 13 15:54:10 Why? May 13 15:54:13 koen, tesco rules supreme May 13 15:54:31 I was so confused the first time I went into a tesco May 13 15:54:34 koen, tesco now has the buying power of a small country May 13 15:54:51 webjames, sorry If this is obvious I haven't been following the whole discussion, installing lynx solved qemu problems for me May 13 15:54:52 what about waitrose? May 13 15:54:52 ayan4m1: why? May 13 15:55:01 I saw a sign for yoghurt May 13 15:55:04 And was confused May 13 15:55:30 I had never seen it spelled that way before May 13 15:55:42 jeddy3_ i havelynx May 13 15:55:49 jeddy3_ but thanks! May 13 15:55:58 webjames, okay :) May 13 15:56:04 webjames: What problems are you having with qemu? May 13 15:56:16 jeddy3_: there are some new problems now :) May 13 15:56:28 jeddy3_ can you run make update-makefile, make update, make setup, make qemu, and it will work now? May 13 15:56:28 which i introduced on Friday May 13 15:57:12 qemu is constantly evolving :) May 13 15:57:17 balrog-kun: maybe it's just me, maybe jeddy3_'s will work May 13 15:58:22 ayan4m1: this is my output to each of there: make update: http://dpaste.com/10204/ make setup: http://dpaste.com/10205/ and make qemu: http://dpaste.com/10206/ May 13 15:58:33 there should read these May 13 16:01:21 jeddy3_ any luck? May 13 16:03:16 webjames, sorry last tested this friday May 13 16:06:06 jeddy3_ yes me to May 13 16:12:09 i dare say is a mokomakefile problem that the creator will sort out, his name escapes me at this moment May 13 16:13:05 either that of balrog-kun will unearth something, fingers crossed one of the two May 13 16:13:14 RodWhitby May 13 16:13:43 ayan4m1: thank you, i might email him with the problem to inform him May 13 16:13:59 i'm afraid it's qemu (i.e. me), and that it locks up on start for some reason (possibly only on 32bit machines) May 13 16:14:25 balrog-kun: in which case i'll hold back on my email May 13 16:14:46 webjames: Happy to help May 13 16:14:48 balrog-kun: is pbrooks arm-nptl patch already in qemu cvs? May 13 16:14:49 do you not have a 32bit machine to test on? May 13 16:15:21 I can test on either, if need be May 13 16:15:35 webjames: okay - i will look into it after i sort out a couple of other issues (mostly cvs administrative stuff) this week May 13 16:15:43 koen: i'm afarid nope May 13 16:16:08 koen: it's only for qemu-user and iirc some people believed there exists a better solution May 13 16:16:39 balrog-kun: I'm afraid I need it for generating glibc locales in OE May 13 16:17:00 balrog-kun: well no rush i'm just nosey to see how things are going, i'll get a P1, or P1+ anyway, you could try http://www.virtualbox.org/ to have a 32bit test environment May 13 16:17:34 balrog-kun: i have been using virtualbox with much success May 13 16:17:34 oh yeah, the locales issue - i believe it's just a design error in the glibc build scripts May 13 16:18:04 webjames: yup, i've seen it but i prefer qemu - virtualbox uses most of QEMU code anyway May 13 16:18:41 balrog-kun: i just like the gui, call me lazy May 13 16:18:59 :) May 13 16:19:12 there are some guis for qemu in standalone projects but i don't know how usable they are May 13 16:19:18 Hah I love beryl... when you compile it from svn it complains about not having the package 'beryl' installed May 13 16:19:21 probably lacking compared to virtualbox May 13 16:19:37 not very, i have tried a couple May 13 16:20:17 koen: iirc psokolovsky was cooking something up to approach the glibc locales issue from a totally different side May 13 16:21:14 personally i'm sure it would be much better done on the host May 13 16:24:23 balrog-kun: I'd like localegen to not need a gazillion MB of memory May 13 16:30:46 webjames: btw. could you check one more thing while you have the environment set up? if you did "-M verstilepb" instead of "-M neo" we would see if it's only neo that's broken or other machines too May 13 16:31:55 if -M versatilepb crashes then it means it's working :p May 13 16:32:06 balrog-kun: here you go: http://dpaste.com/10212/ May 13 16:32:11 because u-boot.bin is compiled for the neo May 13 16:32:50 oops, sorry that was supposed to be "-M versatilepb" (skipped the 'a') May 13 16:35:17 balrog-kun: http://dpaste.com/10213/ May 13 16:35:56 balrog-kun: my cpu goes to about 50% aswell May 13 16:37:13 oh okay, so i broke all of qemu-system-arm, not only the Neo :) May 13 16:37:27 balrog-kun: nice... :-) May 13 16:42:23 counter May 13 16:42:24 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 09:38:47 (2.402 +-2.4 days) (1165;202) May 13 16:42:58 Vitaly: soon, soon! :) May 13 16:43:34 heh, its so long waiting for release May 13 16:43:49 are you going to get a phase 1? May 13 16:43:57 yeah May 13 16:44:34 Ugh I wish docomo made their good phones in gsm May 13 16:44:46 Vitaly: nice, i think i'm waiting for a Phase1+ it's either one of the other for me, so it's gotta be the latter, but maybe that all depends on the discount i might receive May 13 16:45:13 will wifi be available in P1+? May 13 16:45:26 Vitaly: yeah, i think so May 13 16:45:33 do you know what will be the changes? May 13 16:46:10 I think that's sorta up to people testing it May 13 16:46:15 Whatever breaks in the P1 units May 13 16:46:22 really, the absense of wifi is the only thing that disappoints me May 13 16:46:46 Vitaly: they had trouble finding a chip so it'll be in phase 1+ May 13 16:46:56 now that they've found a chip May 13 16:46:58 i know i know May 13 16:48:35 well, than it depends on when the P1+ devices will be available. although even if they say the date they can delay release on unspecified amount of time like it is with p1 devices now May 13 16:49:07 Vitaly: we should get news of the P1+ when the P! gets released May 13 16:49:35 yeah! hope so! May 13 16:50:35 phase 1+ should be released in june sometime May 13 16:51:12 it will be great! May 13 16:51:30 i hope so May 13 17:05:20 * aloril2 wonders if you can get uncertainty from gllin output May 13 17:05:26 Yes May 13 17:05:54 The NMEA output basically give you everything you could observe on the display of any commercial GPS May 13 17:06:25 HDOP, GDOP? May 13 17:06:28 Yes May 13 17:06:31 all that sort of stuff May 13 17:07:09 if not, then this might be one extra feature for free implementation over proprietary one May 13 17:08:26 I'm undecided between a GL -> nmea app or doing a proper gpsd plugin May 13 17:08:33 s/doing/wanting/ May 13 17:08:33 koen meant: I'm undecided between a GL -> nmea app or wanting a proper gpsd plugin May 13 17:09:27 The NMEA output of gll outputs all of the stuff you might want to know normally. May 13 17:09:52 The only areas where you might want more control is to do stuff like software DGPS May 13 17:10:01 And if you're worried about trojan binaries May 13 17:13:17 * balrog-kun wonders if you could emit a signal that crashes the gllin binary May 13 17:13:32 Emiting GPS signals tends to piss people off. May 13 17:13:32 or better yet makes it execute code contained in the signal May 13 17:13:55 Though it's getting ever easier and cheaper. May 13 17:15:59 hi May 13 17:25:06 PBeck hello May 13 17:25:36 what about signal strength/lock time? (indoor/outdoor -> different accuracy satellite positions being equal) May 13 17:27:14 Look at the webpage May 13 17:27:20 - the global locate one May 13 17:27:38 It claims 5m lock in 1s - if it's warm. May 13 17:27:53 I would _guess_ that this is within 3 min of the last 1s power-up May 13 17:28:49 balrog-kun: hi May 13 17:29:45 jserv2: hi there May 13 17:30:46 balrog-kun: I would like to make use of usb net emulation for qemu, so I pass "-net user -net nic,model=usb -usbdevice net:0 -redir tcp:9022:192.168.0.202:22" arguments. May 13 17:31:54 balrog-kun: it seems to be working inside qemu. ifconfig dumps usb0 for me. http://jserv.sayya.org/misc/gta01-usbnet-qemu.png May 13 17:32:18 balrog-kun: however, I can't do ssh connection from host to emulated target. May 13 17:32:37 ie. "ssh -p 9022 root@localhost" doesn't work. May 13 17:32:41 balrog-kun: any idea? May 13 17:32:45 jserv2: that will try to use the OHCI host in the Neo, it's not really supported by the kernel and the userspace - that's one thing May 13 17:33:06 jserv2: second thing is slirp is kindof broken on 64 bit and usb-net is also broken May 13 17:33:15 balrog-kun: ok. May 13 17:33:24 got it! May 13 17:33:50 sometimes i got the usb-net to work (even with ssh), but on the "spitz" machine and ona 32bit host and it wasn't reliable May 13 17:34:48 jserv2: i recommend trying the new gadgetfs support, it's very reliable for me (copied 30MB files over scp to the Neo) May 13 17:35:02 balrog-kun: cool. I will try it. May 13 17:35:14 balrog-kun: thanks May 13 17:35:25 there's a small HOWTO at the end of the wiki page May 13 17:35:38 (but still it's not so easy) May 13 17:41:25 hi webjames May 13 17:49:29 PBeck hey May 13 17:50:16 XorA, were you playing with lego? May 13 17:54:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wishlist:Human_screening]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Main_Page/bg]] [[Translation_HOWTO/bg]] May 13 17:56:39 webjames aou can build nice robots with it May 13 17:56:42 yu May 13 17:56:43 you May 13 17:57:03 yeah, i remember lego technix or something May 13 17:57:18 hm right May 13 17:57:22 * rwhitby returns from week-long business trip May 13 17:57:24 but there are serval h3800 May 13 17:57:35 which you can programm with gcc or java **** ENDING LOGGING AT Sun May 13 18:43:39 2007 **** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun May 13 18:43:59 2007 May 13 20:04:45 counter May 13 20:04:45 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 07:57:36 (2.332 +-2.3 days) (1166;202) May 13 20:14:34 could anyone w/ working GPS verify that after an apm -s neo no longer gets a lock? May 13 20:15:19 CoreDump|home: working GPS? What did I miss? May 13 20:15:57 CoreDump|home: is there a trace uploaded already? May 13 20:16:04 alphaone: pH5 found out how to get output May 13 20:16:21 pH5: I don't think so May 13 20:19:14 !oebug 2308 May 13 20:19:15 * * Bug 2308, Status: NEW, Created: 2007-05-13 12:40 May 13 20:19:15 Cool May 13 20:19:17 * * bugs.openembedded.org(AT)rolf.leggewie.biz: spitz looses time while suspended May 13 20:19:18 * * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2308 May 13 20:56:10 ~ping RP May 13 20:56:11 pong RP May 13 21:15:48 I've put up some traces at linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin (a cold start, a hot start and a somewhat longer trace) May 13 21:15:58 :) May 13 21:16:09 Ok to point at tehm from wiki? May 13 21:16:33 sure, if they're any good. May 13 21:18:55 How to cite you 'ph5 on IRC'? May 13 21:22:57 SpeedEvil: now we have citation rules on the wiki? :) May 13 21:23:10 No. May 13 21:23:18 It's nice to give credit though. May 13 21:28:12 SpeedEvil: ok, I won't be pleased until somebody figures out this protocol either way ;) May 13 21:29:11 I'll try next week. :-) May 13 21:29:47 hehe, it would be funny to have a working reverse-engineered OSS driver before the "official" driver is released May 13 21:30:29 Not happening in the next weekish - which may be when it arrives. May 13 21:30:45 Right. May 13 21:30:46 gpgll is on the p1 phones already sent AIUI. May 13 21:31:50 because someone forgot to remove it I guess May 13 21:32:38 Why? May 13 21:34:14 SpeedEvil - Because it's in some "testing package" and people assume, that it's a FIC-internal-testing-thingy. May 13 21:34:53 and /home/root/DM2 doesn't exactly sound like a good installation path May 13 21:35:55 Ah May 13 21:36:47 counter May 13 21:36:47 http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 : >= 2007-05-10 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) P1: 2 days 07:11:35 (2.300 +-2.3 days) (1167;202) May 13 21:37:03 cool 05-10 is 3 days in the past :) May 13 21:37:39 seriously, any idea on when actual P1 buying will be possible ? May 13 21:37:41 aloril - I guess, you can make 5-20 the new target ;o) May 13 21:37:52 Sufflope - No idea. May 13 21:38:04 :( May 13 21:38:32 OK I guess some more weeks of patience won't be much compared to months already spent May 13 21:38:55 s/week/month/ May 13 21:40:23 * Sufflope commits suicide. May 13 21:41:14 Do we have _any_ info on the "first run"? May 13 21:42:11 the rumour is that it consists of ~2000 neos but that's basically it May 13 21:48:15 So we don't even know, if it happened. ;) May 13 21:48:55 Well by the time they're taking orders I'd imagine there would be some stock already manufactured May 13 21:52:25 nope, they will wait for the money to come in and go drinking, and what's left will go for (first) design and (then) manufacture May 13 21:53:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Hammerhead_protocol]] May 13 21:54:00 Haha fair enough May 13 22:00:19 balrog-kun - *lol* May 13 22:00:33 I know, why I leave the risk-investments to you guys. ;o) May 13 22:02:12 They get 2000 orders, they get wasted and end up shipping boxes filled with empties and a single black market copy of Spiderman 3 May 13 22:02:28 The sad thing is that the guy who got the copy of spiderman is the luckiest of the bunch May 13 22:03:26 Nope. He will be caugt by the anti-piracy group. ,o) May 13 22:03:43 Haha May 13 22:03:47 Those dvd sniffing dogs May 13 23:08:24 how functional is the phone that will be out in May? May 13 23:09:58 daniel_bergamini - It will probably be usable to make calls an receive calls. But that's it. May 13 23:10:06 ... oh and have a running linux with X11. May 13 23:14:59 and show off May 13 23:16:07 the hardware has a lot of potential but needs more apps to show it off May 13 23:16:32 lots of possibilities in bluetooth, gps tricks May 13 23:17:39 multimedia of course May 13 23:20:21 indeed May 13 23:29:46 is there a command-line hack to get my p1 to turn on gsm May 13 23:29:56 or is it just not going to work with the current image...? May 13 23:30:30 openmoko: 03andrew * r1952 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/hw/ (s3c2410.c usb.h): Optimise the PIC, make interrupt arbitration optional. Add missing definitions. May 13 23:30:37 AFAIK the dialer if b0rked May 13 23:31:55 bmidgley: power up, yes, you can power it up and down through /sys since p0 May 13 23:32:01 863 upgraded, 79 newly installed, 17 to remove and 0 not upgraded. May 13 23:32:03 hmmm May 13 23:32:10 and even use a hacky cmdline alternative dialer May 13 23:32:13 I should really upgrade May 13 23:35:18 Laibsch: 1071 is not related to 2289 May 13 23:35:33 piss wrong channel May 13 23:36:35 !oebug 2289 May 13 23:36:36 * * Bug 2289, Status: ASSIGNED, Created: 2007-05-09 15:10 May 13 23:36:37 * * marioabajo(AT)gmail.com: Sandisk ConnectPlus oops May 13 23:36:38 * * http://bugs.openembedded.org/show_bug.cgi?id=2289 May 13 23:41:28 balrog-kun: I can't find in the wiki power control for gsm May 13 23:43:41 lemme check it May 13 23:53:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] May 13 23:55:51 balrog-kun: Is the most recent qemu broken? May 13 23:58:05 bmidgley, you want to set the gsm transmit power? May 13 23:58:29 ayan4m1: for one user, yes, for me it works May 14 00:00:13 balrog-kun: Well add me to the list of "not working" May 14 00:00:26 oh i was to check something :p May 14 00:00:31 ayan4m1: are you on a 32bit system? May 14 00:00:36 Umm sec May 14 00:00:40 lol I don't know how it's compiled May 14 00:00:58 I have a 64-bit proc... I believe this is 32-bit though May 14 00:02:35 root@fic-gta01:~$ echo 0 > /sys/bus/platform/devices/gta01-pm-gsm.0/power_on May 14 00:02:56 <6>gta01-pm-gsm gta01-pm-gsm.0: powered down GSM, thus enabling serial console May 14 00:06:54 Psi: the dialer never contacts the gsm network so I was going to make sure the radio powered up May 14 00:07:24 the gsm icon always has a ? by it and the popup menu for power up and autoregister doesn't do anything May 14 00:09:34 balrog-kun: Yeah it's 32-bit May 14 00:09:57 ayan4m1: ok May 14 00:10:13 well, it may be this or may be something else May 14 00:10:18 i will check that some day May 14 00:12:17 ayan4m1: are you using MokoMakefile too? May 14 00:12:29 that may have something to do too May 14 00:15:01 balrog-kun: Yes, I can try it straight from source if you want May 14 00:16:27 ayan4m1: i'll be going to sleep already May 14 00:16:32 but thanks May 14 00:19:55 balrog-kun: Alright May 14 01:55:27 (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] May 14 02:08:51 counter_msg http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) May 14 02:08:51 aloril changed counter prefix message to http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973 (uncertainty is a optimistic guess) May 14 02:40:13 a bit old mail, but ..: May 14 02:43:03 (script) openmoko-community: sean at openmoko.org How many FOSS developers & users Worldwide? **** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon May 14 02:59:57 2007