**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue May 22 02:59:56 2007
May 22 06:58:57 <Hopscotc1> good morning
May 22 07:11:01 <Pander> morning
May 22 07:26:19 <Rakshasa> morgen
May 22 07:27:46 <TRIsoft> morning
May 22 07:38:04 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03werner * r2053 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/ (bbt-scan-second.patch unbusy-i2c.patch): 
May 22 07:38:04 <CIA-24> openmoko: unbusy-i2c.patch: updated for u-boot reorganization
May 22 07:38:04 <CIA-24> openmoko: bbt-scan-second.patch: updated for u-boot reorganization
May 22 07:39:46 <Pander> ohayo gozaimasu
May 22 07:44:39 <Elrond> Morning people.
May 22 07:45:27 <Elrond> TRIsoft - BTW: Did you already receive a neo for CE-testing?
May 22 07:52:45 <TRIsoft> Elrond: Nope, no toys for us :-( We hope to get a P1 unit when the production run is done
May 22 07:54:20 <cheesy> counter?
May 22 07:54:20 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 5 days 04:05:37 (5.171 +-5.0 days) (1237;211)
May 22 07:56:14 <Elrond> TRIsoft - Okay. :-)
May 22 07:56:43 <Elrond> In another 4hours the counter will go to half speed, I guess. ;)
May 22 07:57:42 <aloril> yeah and then lower limit is correct again ;-)
May 22 07:58:44 <CM> They've been really bad at sending out updates the last month
May 22 07:59:00 <CM> I mean some kind of progress report
May 22 08:00:05 <Pander> _alcik_: yes, thanks, I already replied that the build and run was succesful somewhere above
May 22 08:00:18 <cheesy> if phase1 comes out end of may, phase1+ won't come out in june does it?
May 22 08:00:38 <CM> cheesy: Probably not.. 
May 22 08:01:02 <CM> cheesy: Sean has promised to say more once the P1's are done
May 22 08:01:09 <guaqua_> the biggest problem is the delay in getting the phone to bigger number of devs and getting actual applications on the platform
May 22 08:01:30 <guaqua_> hard to market a platform that has nothing to offer
May 22 08:02:21 <Pander> so in stead of asking when when when is it coming out people should put more effort in development ;)
May 22 08:02:27 <CM> I'd still like a stripped down vmware debian dev environment with all the tools set up
May 22 08:02:57 <CM> I'm yet to have the moko-makefile to finish a build on my 64-bit gentoo.. 
May 22 08:03:41 <guaqua> Pander: hard to motivate yourself if you don't see a reasonable way to start and you can't be sure if the work you put in will be in vain
May 22 08:04:58 <Pander> gauqua: just kiddin' around. would be cool to be able to buy this thing and me too is counting down
May 22 08:05:29 <CM> Anything involving hardware is always sloooooooooow.. 
May 22 08:05:49 <CM> I mean when it comes to produce something completely new :)
May 22 08:07:41 <DukeOfURL> What's the closest gadget, harware wise, that would run moko?
May 22 08:07:52 <DukeOfURL> s/would/cound/
May 22 08:07:53 <apt> DukeOfURL meant: What's the closest gadget, harware wise, that cound run moko?
May 22 08:08:04 <DukeOfURL> s/cound/could/
May 22 08:08:27 <guaqua> wound, bound, sound, round?
May 22 08:08:33 <guaqua> ;)
May 22 08:08:58 <DukeOfURL> ok, What's the closest gadget, harware wise, that could run moko?
May 22 08:09:16 <CM> Available now? Hmm.. The A1200 maybe?
May 22 08:09:30 <CM> I don't know, but some people here sure should
May 22 08:09:41 <CM> koen for instance 
May 22 08:10:17 <CM> DukeOfURL: Guess it would be difficult to get openmoko running on the htc phones, so some linux phone probably
May 22 08:10:28 <DukeOfURL> hmmm
May 22 08:12:57 <CM> BT access point: http://osnews.com/story.php/17936/Review-ANYCOM-EDR-AP-Bluetooth-Access-Point/
May 22 08:14:03 <Fletchwork> counter
May 22 08:14:04 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 5 days 03:45:54 (5.157 +-5.0 days) (1238;212)
May 22 08:16:30 <cheesy> waiting sucks
May 22 08:16:59 <Pander> This Motorola A1200 is for sale yet?
May 22 08:17:48 <Pander> apparently it is: http://www.gsmarena.com/motorola_a1200-1429.php
May 22 08:18:22 <hads> Patience is a virtue.
May 22 08:18:45 <DukeOfURL> Some US dealers are advertising "unlocked" A1200 phones
May 22 08:18:53 <DukeOfURL> Java MIDP
May 22 08:19:04 <DukeOfURL> Only 8MB
May 22 08:19:15 <DukeOfURL> Can't find any mention of GPS
May 22 08:31:10 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03werner * r2054 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/nand-otp.patch: nand-otp.patch: updated for u-boot reorganization
May 22 08:32:01 <DukeOfURL> A701 looks interesting.  http://www.theregister.co.uk/2005/08/25/mio_a701_exposed/
May 22 08:42:18 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03wansti * r2055 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ (README TODO): added README and TODO for the OpenMoko sounds
May 22 08:45:27 <CM> LogFS article: http://applications.linux.com/applications/07/05/11/2017200.shtml
May 22 08:45:45 <CM> Would be nice for that 8GB micro sd card :)
May 22 08:46:44 <mjr> dunno
May 22 08:46:55 <koen> CM: no, it wouldn't, since that sd card is a block device, not an mtd device
May 22 08:46:56 <mjr> as the article says, ""In order to use a USB stick with a flash filesystem, the block device interface needs to get translated back to a Memory Technology Device, which represents a piece of flash in Linux. This double translation is hugely inefficient. If manufacturers would allow access to the raw flash chips in their devices without going through any translation, flash filesystems would become a lot more useful."
May 22 08:47:11 <mjr> s/USB stick/microSD/
May 22 08:47:11 <apt> mjr meant: as the article says, ""In order to use a microSD with a flash filesystem, the block device interface needs to get translated back to a Memory Technology Device, which represents a piece of flash in Linux. This double translation is hugely inefficient. If ...
May 22 08:47:20 <CM> Ah, sucks.. 
May 22 08:48:17 * CM needs some more coffee
May 22 08:48:28 <barmeier> hi
May 22 08:48:51 <mjr> basically we just then use ext3 and rely on the card to do wear-levelling, which is suboptimal in that respect as well, but mostly good enough
May 22 08:48:58 <mjr> probably want to do noatime tho :]
May 22 08:49:24 <CM> mjr: Why isn't noatime default anyway?
May 22 08:49:41 <koen> to keep gentoo in business
May 22 08:49:43 <CM> The ones who want it surely know enough to turn it on anyway
May 22 08:52:29 <mjr> well, it's rather standard, you know, to have atimes :]
May 22 08:52:51 <mjr> I've actually used it as well to see where I was in some anime series or something...
May 22 08:57:18 <DeltaTatham> salute
May 22 08:57:56 <LuitvD> counte
May 22 08:57:58 <LuitvD> counter
May 22 08:57:58 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 5 days 03:01:59 (5.126 +-5.0 days) (1239;212)
May 22 08:58:23 <quitte_> counter
May 22 08:58:23 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 5 days 03:01:34 (5.126 +-5.0 days) (1240;212)
May 22 08:59:49 <DeltaTatham> hi guys, I'm new here. want to contribute my german language skills to the project (since I've no proper dev-environment available right now...) - is it possible to download the .po's via http/ftp?
May 22 08:59:49 <aloril> DeltaTatham: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 22 09:00:02 <DeltaTatham> oi vei...
May 22 09:01:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:DFence]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]] [[Translation]] [[User_talk:Kencnidpf2ts4ufn35tpl2rn]]
May 22 09:02:14 <CM> DeltaTatham: That's quite a good auto trigger. There's a lot of good info in the wiki
May 22 09:02:23 <CM> also about translating the wiki itself
May 22 09:06:21 <cheesy> ?
May 22 09:06:34 <DeltaTatham> hm.. I'll just start raping the wiki then... :)
May 22 09:06:58 <cheesy> DeltaTatham: Grossartig.
May 22 09:06:59 <LuitvD> DeltaTatham: you'll find it quite pleasing ;)
May 22 09:08:14 <florian> good morning
May 22 09:08:30 <DeltaTatham> LuitvD: for some strange reason i feel the need to utilize german more often, but since my current environment (living in china, speaking chin/eng most of the time) is not too fond of that...
May 22 09:09:03 <LuitvD> DeltaTatham: that's odd... german in china speaking english :P
May 22 09:10:24 <DeltaTatham> LuitvD: chinese within my capabilities, everything else either hands-and-feet (locals) or english (non-locals)  and ranting in bavarian as a last resort
May 22 09:11:41 <LuitvD> for me it'd just be hands-and-feet or english XD
May 22 09:12:36 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Sean Moss-Pultz <sean at openmoko.com> Re: FCC Approval
May 22 09:13:00 <LuitvD> yehaa :)
May 22 09:13:08 <DeltaTatham> LuitvD: when in comes to chinese it's eat or be eaten - way more literally than you might think
May 22 09:14:06 <LuitvD> chinese is a very hard language for people from western europe...
May 22 09:15:08 <DeltaTatham> LuitvD: once you get the gist or the deeper sense behind it it get's quite easy, though keeping the characters in mind is a bitch
May 22 09:15:32 <DeltaTatham> any preferences / priorities for the wiki-translation? (community > developer-pages etc?!)
May 22 09:15:47 <LuitvD> whatever you feel like ;)
May 22 09:15:57 <LuitvD> priority: everything
May 22 09:16:14 <LuitvD> start with the frontpage, and work from there if you don't know where to begin
May 22 09:16:26 <DeltaTatham> hm... btw: charset-check: ÄãºÃ
May 22 09:16:32 <DeltaTatham> jackpot...
May 22 09:16:41 <LuitvD> ...
May 22 09:16:59 <LuitvD> Äã?
May 22 09:17:56 <CM> åäö?
May 22 09:17:57 <DeltaTatham> frickfrickfrick...
May 22 09:18:18 <LuitvD> meh, I can't do that circle on top of characters :(
May 22 09:18:21 <DeltaTatham> <- sees funky stuff but prolly not what it's supposed to be...
May 22 09:18:53 <DeltaTatham> FOR THE LOVE OF GOD: CAN SOMEONE NAME A PROPER IRC-CLIENT FOR MAC OS?
May 22 09:18:58 <LuitvD> :P
May 22 09:19:10 <webjames> LuitvD, DeltaTatham i am looking into learning mandarin, is pimsleur any good?
May 22 09:19:12 <thresh> irssi?
May 22 09:19:13 <CM> DeltaTatham: Irssi in a terminal?
May 22 09:19:21 <CM> thresh: :P
May 22 09:19:55 <ewon> xchat?
May 22 09:19:55 <cheesy> DeltaTatham: if you are a graphical guy: i tried snak once..was ok
May 22 09:19:59 <DeltaTatham> webjames: the only way to learn mandarin: book a ticket to beijing and find an appartment :)
May 22 09:20:06 <DeltaTatham> cheesy: commercial bull*
May 22 09:20:32 <webjames> DeltaTatham: not even worth it to get an overview before venturing forth?
May 22 09:20:55 <DeltaTatham> webjames: what's your native lang?
May 22 09:21:07 <webjames> DeltaTatham: english (UK)
May 22 09:22:42 <DeltaTatham> webjames: english ppl have huge problems with the pronounciation, so I'd rather look into that first (it will be annoying the crap out of you but it's the only way locals will understand you once you start learning it)
May 22 09:23:52 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2056 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.c): 
May 22 09:23:52 <CIA-24> openmoko: * libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.c:
May 22 09:23:52 <CIA-24> openmoko: (_moko_gsmd_connection_source_dispatch): Prevent the mainloop from
May 22 09:23:52 <CIA-24> openmoko: locking up if gsmd goes away
May 22 09:25:32 <webjames> DeltaTatham: the pimsleur stuff is all on cd, it's all audio so i guess you could learn the different tones from that? apparently one uses about 2500 words commonly
May 22 09:28:20 <DeltaTatham> webjames: 3500 and around 5k if you want to read newspapers. at my school we used "Basic Chinese Phonetics" by "Foreign Language Teaching and Research Press" (no ISBN quoted) and New Practical Chinese Reader (Textbook) (ISBN 7-5619-1319-2/H)
May 22 09:29:33 <Pander> Pimsleur is good, I used it for Japanese. However I would recommend to also do a written course at the same time.
May 22 09:29:52 <webjames> DeltaTatham: sweet, could i just come over and start teaching english, with that could i afford an apartment? i still have one more year of university then during which i could learn from pimsleur and the textbooks
May 22 09:30:07 <DeltaTatham> webjames: once you made peace with the phonetics (and the cramps in your tongue...) the textbook is really good. useful vocab and comes with a cd
May 22 09:30:37 <webjames> Pander: thanks i think i might give them a go, see if i get on with it
May 22 09:31:23 <DeltaTatham> webjames: you need a F-Visa which requires a chinese company that sponsors it, but since english-schools are popping out of the ground like mushrooms it think it won't be too hard finding a company to do so
May 22 09:31:33 <Pander> for written courses there are many free ones on the internet, how to learn Chinese characters
May 22 09:31:43 <balrog-kun> i tried pimsleur japanese, it was okay although japanese pronounciation is completely different and easier than chinese
May 22 09:31:56 <DeltaTatham> Pander: the textbook i quoted has detailed instructions about stroke-orders and all that fun-stuff
May 22 09:32:06 <balrog-kun> later however i found much better audio materials that are free, released as podcasts
May 22 09:32:13 <DeltaTatham> balrog-kun: tell me about it -_-
May 22 09:32:34 <webjames> well i think i'll just give it a go, even if i pick up enough to help me learn more when i'm out there it'll be a start
May 22 09:32:42 <balrog-kun> DeltaTatham: try japanesepod101.com
May 22 09:32:44 <Pander> in Japan they have translators for kanji - english. would be cool for openmoko. also to learn these things because of stroke order and direction, cool with a touchpad mobile computing device to learn whenever you have idle time :)
May 22 09:33:01 <DeltaTatham> balrog-kun: we chinese people don't fancy these devils from the island ;D
May 22 09:33:11 <balrog-kun> hah
May 22 09:33:44 <webjames> DeltaTatham: is bejing expensive to live in compared to england, or germany?
May 22 09:33:54 <DeltaTatham> webjames: it's cheap as fuck
May 22 09:34:13 <webjames> DeltaTatham: sweet!
May 22 09:34:38 <webjames> well thanks for the advice DeltaTatham and everyone
May 22 09:34:41 <DeltaTatham> np
May 22 09:34:53 <webjames> i might bump into you out there!
May 22 09:35:14 <webjames> (i'll be the one crying and looking lost and hungry)
May 22 09:35:20 <LuitvD> lol
May 22 09:35:26 <DeltaTatham> ok, then it might be a bit difficult...
May 22 09:35:43 <DeltaTatham> but it's quite likely, I'll prolly stay here for one more year
May 22 09:36:00 <webjames> sweet, well cheers again
May 22 09:36:28 <CM> DeltaTatham: Doing what, if you don't mind me being curious?
May 22 09:36:42 <DeltaTatham> webjames: the school I'm at hires english-teachers on a yearly basis, though they are on the lower end of the list... might be good for starters though: www.worldlinkedu.com
May 22 09:37:07 <DeltaTatham> CM: so far only learning chinese and getting hammered :)
May 22 09:37:18 <CM> Hehe, ok :)
May 22 09:37:58 <CM> Viel spaß.. ;)
May 22 09:38:51 <DeltaTatham> merci
May 22 09:40:11 <DeltaTatham> TILT 3 languages at the same time
May 22 09:44:33 <DeltaTatham> <- afk
May 22 09:49:14 <sparq> webjames: I think it's fairly unlikely that you'll run into someone at random in Beijing ^_^
May 22 09:50:10 <DeltaTatham> sparq: this town is a freakin nest when it comes to foreigner-friendly places (a.k.a bar strip)
May 22 09:51:50 <DeltaTatham> hm... if someone feels intimidated by car-horns then beijing is prolly the LAST place he'd want to go to *GARRGARRGARR*
May 22 09:52:09 <DeltaTatham> introducing: the car - asian cryptonite
May 22 09:53:23 <DeltaTatham> not that i want to be racist or so... but once a chinese person gets to hold a steering wheel the past... let's say 5000 years of evolution simply vanish
May 22 09:53:28 <sparq> DeltaTatham: I'm going to have to learn how to get around in Beijin next year, one way or another
May 22 09:53:45 <DeltaTatham> sparq: let me make a wild guess: olympia?
May 22 09:53:55 <sparq> Heh. Nominally.
May 22 09:55:31 <koen> DeltaTatham: how's that different from say, europeans behind a steering wheel?
May 22 09:55:37 * florian looks at DeltaTatham 
May 22 09:55:52 * DeltaTatham feels like someone is watching him
May 22 09:56:13 <DeltaTatham> sparq: since the municipal gov is taking every effort right now to make bj as foreigner-friendly as possible it's most likely you won't have to deal with funky menus (hell, most restaurants will even have them by then) or very interesting places like the racist-park...
May 22 09:56:14 <florian> DeltaTatham: You have no idea how people in some areas in Germany behave using their cars ;)
May 22 09:56:35 <DeltaTatham> florian: I've been one of these semi-suicidal drivers before i got here
May 22 09:56:52 <DeltaTatham> koen: europeans(male).know.how.to.drive.
May 22 09:56:59 <sparq> My girlfriend is going to be studying there, and I will visit when possible
May 22 09:57:07 <CM> koen: My aunt and uncle were in China this spring. Said the driver of their taxi went on the wrong side of the road, over zebra crossings, bike roads, against red lights and way too fast
May 22 09:57:19 <koen> DeltaTatham: that's not the impression I get when driving here
May 22 09:57:26 <DeltaTatham> once a chinese person manages to get the engine running anything is possible
May 22 09:57:47 <DeltaTatham> koen: one week china and you'll be cured from that
May 22 09:57:49 <koen> CM: sounds like a latin-american taxi :)
May 22 09:57:58 <florian> hehe
May 22 09:58:04 <koen> CM: was a seat on fire as well?
May 22 09:58:13 <DeltaTatham> CM: that's what i'd consider a good driver here..
May 22 09:58:17 <CM> koen: Hehe.. Or philippine I can add. But there they don't even have red lights
May 22 09:58:41 <DeltaTatham> you can consider yourself lucky when they turn on the lights at night..
May 22 09:58:51 <CM> Came to a 6-lane road crossing a 4-lane, and no roundabout or lights, just a square intersection. Crazy..
May 22 09:58:54 <florian> DeltaTatham: ouch... in fact my experiences with chinese cars are much better than german ones. especially if i think about taxis :)
May 22 09:59:19 <koen> if anyone travels to mexico: the volkswagen bug taxis are cute, but should have been retired 10 years ago
May 22 09:59:53 <DeltaTatham> koen: I'll raise you 20 year old citroens
May 22 10:00:04 <florian> koen: The advantage of these is that the are hard to break and spare parts are dirt cheap.
May 22 10:00:26 <CM> florian: Maybe not hard to break, but at least easy to fix ;)
May 22 10:00:27 <sparq> DeltaTatham: I think it's a cultural thing. It's no more dangerous to drive in Monteray Park (the Chinese part of LA) than anywhere else.
May 22 10:00:44 <florian> CM: yeah
May 22 10:00:59 <DeltaTatham> sparq: at least in beijing it's just applied darwinism
May 22 10:01:09 <DeltaTatham> well.. darwinism and honking
May 22 10:01:25 <DeltaTatham> ok.. it's honking
May 22 10:02:13 <sparq> DeltaTatham: Don't worry. Eventually there will be too many cars in Beijing for anyone to move, and then it won't matter.
May 22 10:04:00 <DeltaTatham> mh by 2020 they'll have the biggest subway-system every, and lord knows they'll need it - you can cut the smog with a knife right now
May 22 10:04:09 <DeltaTatham> s/every/ever
May 22 10:04:30 <CM> Moko post: http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/39043.html
May 22 10:04:52 <CM> 6h of mp3 and the battery is empty.. Hmm.. :(
May 22 10:05:56 <CM> I really hope the Neo will survive at least a day of use, hopefully a lot more. Even when listening to mp3's
May 22 10:08:31 <mjr> wonder how optimal madplay is for arm...
May 22 10:08:46 <mjr> ah well
May 22 10:09:15 <mjr> I shan't be too distressed if such continuous use eats batteries but it would always be nice to have more
May 22 10:09:34 <mjr> ...and then people want wifi to eat even more ;P
May 22 10:11:48 * sparq shrugs
May 22 10:12:00 <mjr> one presumes that madplay at least does fixed-point decoding
May 22 10:12:07 <DeltaTatham> why not just include a little plutonium core? would solve that annoying need for recharging, we can cross of the flashlight function and people who bitch about limited functionality soon will have other problems to whine about - or they just won't reproduce
May 22 10:14:03 <balrog-kun> mpg123 can reproduce 128kbps mono mp3s on my 66 MHz ARM, realtime (it could probably also play stereo but i have alsa support broken on that machine)
May 22 10:14:35 <balrog-kun> mpg123 does fixed-point
May 22 10:15:36 <wooKieface> counter
May 22 10:15:36 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 5 days 01:44:21 (5.072 +-5.0 days) (1241;212)
May 22 10:17:58 <sparq> I suppose the kernel can probably be tuned for better battery life under various conditions. There are probably bigger fish to fry right now, though.
May 22 10:23:55 <hrw> morning
May 22 10:24:23 <sparq> hrw: and good evening ^_^
May 22 10:27:37 <DeltaTatham> gmt+8 says good evening
May 22 10:28:21 * drath waits for someone to mention ugt...
May 22 10:29:47 <sparq> Speaking of time, I'd better get some sleep. G'nite all.
May 22 10:31:09 <DeltaTatham> regarding MokoMakefile / royalty in case of problems or contradictions: "If there is any discrepancy between the [[Building_OpenMoko_from_scratch|official OpenMoko build instructions]], and the operation of the MokoMakefile, then you should consider the official instructions to be correct."
May 22 10:31:28 <DeltaTatham> official instructions = Rod Whitby's?
May 22 10:32:46 <DeltaTatham> perfect timing...
May 22 10:38:23 <Hopscotc1> balrog-kun: nope, mpg123 uses floating point
May 22 10:38:30 <Hopscotc1> balrog-kun: madplay uses fixed
May 22 10:38:56 <balrog-kun> DeltaTatham: i believe these are the unofficial ones
May 22 10:39:18 <balrog-kun> Hopscotch: i think it can also do floating point, but normally it's integer
May 22 10:39:20 <balrog-kun> s
May 22 10:40:05 <balrog-kun> i remember compiling mpg123 without <math.h>
May 22 10:40:12 <DeltaTatham> balrog-kun: the way I understood it was: whatever MokoMakefile says, the official=wiki-linked instructions are to be considered right
May 22 10:40:18 <Hopscotch> that doesn't say much
May 22 10:40:42 * Hopscotch has a look into the sources
May 22 10:41:07 <DeltaTatham> <- have no 7gb i could spare :)
May 22 10:41:33 <balrog-kun> DeltaTatham: yes
May 22 10:42:09 <balrog-kun> i.e MokoMakefile (Rod Whitby's instructions) == unofficial
May 22 10:43:29 <Hopscotch> balrog-kun: mpg123 uses float...
May 22 10:44:43 <DeltaTatham> ok, wiki = official, rod's and the makefile are 2nd
May 22 10:48:53 <DeltaTatham> is $OMDIR intended or is it supposed to be $HOMEDIR? (still MokoMakefile)
May 22 10:49:49 <balrog-kun> Hopscotch: ah yes, you're right
May 22 10:53:06 <Hopscotch> hehe, had a long fight with the libmad-guys because of licensing - which i would have avoided if mpg123 used fixed...
May 22 10:54:49 <DeltaTatham> holy crap it's getting foggy oO
May 22 10:55:27 <CM> DeltaTatham: OMDIR, for OpenMokoDir :)
May 22 10:55:37 <DeltaTatham> CM: xiexie
May 22 11:07:11 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2057 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-main.c: 
May 22 11:07:11 <CIA-24> openmoko: openmoko-dialer: cancel the startup notification when signalling the existing
May 22 11:07:11 <CIA-24> openmoko: instance
May 22 11:08:53 <DeltaTatham> patches?
May 22 11:12:02 <CM> DeltaTatham: What? The CIA stats?
May 22 11:12:09 <DeltaTatham> yep
May 22 11:12:34 <CM> It's commits to the OpenMoko repository :)
May 22 11:12:39 <DeltaTatham> ah ok
May 22 11:13:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2058 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (8 files): 
May 22 11:13:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: Patch by Neil J Patel <njp@o-hand.com>
May 22 11:13:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: openmoko-dialer: fix compiler warnings and some formatting/logic clean up
May 22 11:15:34 <DeltaTatham> damn i should start coding again..
May 22 11:15:56 <CM> DeltaTatham: Same here, I'm at work.. ;)
May 22 11:16:11 <DeltaTatham> CM: i'm too rusty, stopped coding about a year ago
May 22 11:16:30 <CM> Get back to it then :)
May 22 11:17:33 <DeltaTatham> CM: right now I rather enjoy the sunlight .) dunno why but when I'm coding I always mutate to an absolute vampire
May 22 11:18:09 <CM> DeltaTatham: Heh, then you should spend the winters here in Sweden. The sun is barely up at all ;)
May 22 11:18:25 <DeltaTatham> AAAAAAAAH SWEDISH PEOPLE KEEP CHASING ME
May 22 11:18:37 <DeltaTatham> why lord, why..
May 22 11:19:00 <CM> Wir liben Deutschland! :P
May 22 11:19:26 <koen> +e
May 22 11:19:27 <DeltaTatham> out of 10 classmates 8 are swedish, 75% of my freakin school is swedish, the headquarter is in sweden - i have 24 hours of hŸdli-hŸdli-hŸdli around me *GARRGARRGARRR*
May 22 11:19:34 <Hopscotch> http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zicgrpSYSYQ
May 22 11:19:50 <guaqua> h_dli =
May 22 11:20:15 <guaqua> ?
May 22 11:20:15 <DeltaTatham> huedli huedli = swedish mumbojambo
May 22 11:22:02 <DeltaTatham> huedli huedli = swedish, hoedli hoedli = norwegian
May 22 11:22:30 <CM> Hopscotch: Ouch, scary..
May 22 11:22:40 <Hopscotch> she's a real bitch
May 22 11:22:48 <DeltaTatham> och noe...
May 22 11:23:14 <ossman> DeltaTatham, passa sig ;)
May 22 11:23:22 <DeltaTatham> BLOW ME
May 22 11:24:12 <DeltaTatham> Hopscotch: she and I have the same haircut
May 22 11:25:03 <Hopscotch> hmmmm... germans always believed that she doesn't have a haircut
May 22 11:25:31 <DeltaTatham> mine's between my legs..
May 22 11:27:28 <Hopscotch> DeltaTatham: rofl :)
May 22 11:40:16 <DeltaTatham> gnarrrr the wiki keeps kicking me out...
May 22 11:40:22 <SpeedEvil> counter
May 22 11:40:23 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 5 days 00:19:35 (5.014 +-5.0 days) (1242;212)
May 22 11:41:41 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2059 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.h: libmokogsmd: add prototype for pin-requested signal
May 22 12:00:52 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2060 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokogsmd/moko-gsmd-connection.c): libmokogsmd: actually emit 'requested-pin' signal
May 22 12:01:16 <mickeyl> Elrond: sorry, been busy all day long. what's up?
May 22 12:12:26 <aloril2> counter
May 22 12:12:27 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 23:53:45 (4.996 +-5.0 days) (1243;212)
May 22 12:19:27 <DeltaTatham> question: shouldn't "make update-makefile && make update && make setup && make openmoko-devel-image" rather be "make update-makefile ; make update ; make setup ; make openmoko-devel-image" ? (I'm not that bright when it comes to bash-scripting)...
May 22 12:21:42 <CM> DeltaTatham: I think it's written with && so you can see where it fails if there's a problem
May 22 12:21:47 <nnpiggy> The ampersands prevent additional steps from taking place should the earlier steps fail.
May 22 12:22:00 <nnpiggy> What CM said...
May 22 12:22:38 <DeltaTatham> CM: i thought && makes the commands run at the same time?
May 22 12:22:53 <DeltaTatham> a, ok got it
May 22 12:23:16 <nnpiggy> A single ampersand backgrounds. Double is "and"...
May 22 12:23:19 <CM> DeltaTatham: No, but cmd2 is run only if cmd1 is completed (cmd1 && cmd2) :)
May 22 12:23:52 <DeltaTatham> ok, thanks - it's been a while ;D
May 22 12:24:09 <DeltaTatham> ok - MokoMakefile/de is german
May 22 12:24:16 <DeltaTatham> or... ehm.. ya
May 22 12:24:39 <nnpiggy> You need translations?
May 22 12:24:39 <CM> wansti: You should use some cool 3D-sounds for the OpenMoko sounds. This sounds cool: http://david-heron.me.uk/blog/2007/04/08/virtual-barbershop
May 22 12:24:54 <DeltaTatham> nnpiggy: i'm bored, therefore i translate :)
May 22 12:25:19 <nnpiggy> Sehr gut.
May 22 12:25:46 <CM> Ausgezeichnet! ;)
May 22 12:26:15 <CM> That's the word I never got on my german words tests... :(
May 22 12:26:46 <wansti> CM: hm, that's interesting...
May 22 12:27:13 <nnpiggy> :-)
May 22 12:27:14 <CM> wansti: Try that whispering woman on the second "here" link
May 22 12:27:59 <CM> wansti: Just an "ping" on a bell that's moved around the head in a circle would be a cool sms signal 
May 22 12:28:20 <nnpiggy> Uhrmenschnaturgefuehligkeit!
May 22 12:28:28 <guaqua> i'd like to have the submarine sonar sound for sms sound
May 22 12:28:42 <wansti> CM: i'm not sur eif i can do that... but i can try
May 22 12:29:12 <DeltaTatham> wat se fak!?
May 22 12:29:59 <nnpiggy> Those sound samples are really impressive.
May 22 12:30:26 <nnpiggy> Did anyone understand the name of the algorithm in the virtual barbershop?
May 22 12:31:02 <CM> nnpiggy: I'm guessing that the easiest and best way is to really have someone sit there with a small microphone near each ear and just record both at the same time
May 22 12:31:15 * CM didn't hear any name
May 22 12:31:34 <nnpiggy> The barber whispers it in the left ear near the end...
May 22 12:32:09 <nnpiggy> "Cetera"?
May 22 12:32:23 <nnpiggy> It is at 4:10.
May 22 12:32:32 <CM> nnpiggy: Sounds like "cetera algorithm"
May 22 12:32:57 <nnpiggy> Good! Got some hits.
May 22 12:34:16 <nnpiggy> Thanks.
May 22 12:37:42 <CM> nnpiggy: Some cool stuff here too: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Binaural_recording
May 22 12:38:03 <nnpiggy> Yeah, found that. So far I've only dug up one reference to the algorithm itself.
May 22 12:38:11 <kiney> counter
May 22 12:38:11 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 23:40:53 (4.987 +-5.0 days) (1244;212)
May 22 12:38:31 * DeltaTatham 's hearing someone singing - bad sign?!
May 22 12:41:55 <DeltaTatham> and my neighbors are fucking again... great
May 22 12:42:51 <SpeedEvil> Submit rankings and comments on a note slipped under the door.
May 22 12:42:56 <guaqua> :D
May 22 12:43:01 <CM> Hehe
May 22 12:43:08 <SpeedEvil> "4 on vocal range, 7 on enthusiasm, 3 on length'
May 22 12:43:33 <CM> DeltaTatham: Maybe an opportunity to record some 3D sound? :P
May 22 12:43:49 <guaqua> i'm thinking only the length of the act after every time would be sufficient to piss them off :D
May 22 12:44:22 <SpeedEvil> Register 'soundsofmyhornyneighbours.com' 
May 22 12:44:32 <SpeedEvil> It could be the next myspace!
May 22 12:45:17 <DeltaTatham> SpeedEvil: they are chinese - where to start!?
May 22 12:46:24 <Stephmw> DeltaTatham: record it, give it to them as a ringtone
May 22 12:47:43 <DeltaTatham> I'll always remember this one time i was sitting with a couple of friends of my exchangepartner chtichatting and we somehow managed to get to the whole interracial-relationship thing... and one of these girls just shots right at me: "of course chinese girls want a western man - chinese men suck in bed!"
May 22 12:47:54 <ewon> lol
May 22 12:48:39 <CM> DeltaTatham: I sure hope the women do too.. ;)
May 22 12:49:12 <DeltaTatham> meeeeeeeey.... bad pun, 5$ in the bad-pun-jar :D
May 22 12:49:38 <SpeedEvil> Is that a star-wars themed money collection device?
May 22 12:49:45 <SpeedEvil> A bad-pun-jar-jar?
May 22 12:49:54 <DeltaTatham> and if you should have a bad day here in china, just go to a gym or a pubilc pool or whatever and take your time to change chlothes...
May 22 12:50:06 <CM> SpeedEvil: Hehe... If I owe it 5, you owe 10 for that one
May 22 12:51:29 <DeltaTatham> SpeedEvil: a german comedian introduced it while ranting about dumbass-astronauts landing on mars and meeting alien life for the first time
May 22 12:51:44 <DeltaTatham> CM: i was borderlining, you took it over the top
May 22 12:55:42 <CM> DeltaTatham: I'm lucky that all my neighbours are 70+ years old and at least half deaf :)
May 22 12:56:12 <ewon> I remember a housemate of mine had an olympic swimmer as a boyfriend
May 22 12:56:23 <ewon> they used to have marathon jack-hammer sessions
May 22 12:56:31 <ewon> like on the order of hours
May 22 12:56:39 <ewon> she used to walk funny the next morning
May 22 12:56:42 <SpeedEvil> It's good excersize, doing it right :)
May 22 12:59:58 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: yeah, but it's a shame it was one-sided
May 22 13:00:32 <DeltaTatham> hehe
May 22 13:02:18 <_alcik_> guaqua: how about a submarine alert sound (like the one in old movies) for a ringtone
May 22 13:02:29 <guaqua> _alcik_: that too
May 22 13:02:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/de]] [[MokoMakefile/de]] [[Wish_List]]
May 22 13:02:41 <Stephmw> http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/americas/2297471.stm ...
May 22 13:02:42 <Stephmw> didn't realise the Undead had a right to run for office :D
May 22 13:02:58 <guaqua> _alcik_: there are a lot of different device sounds from military settings that might be interesting
May 22 13:04:18 <Pander> Mr. Bluetooth if his teeth also stared colouring.
May 22 13:06:13 <Stephmw> haha... well, iirc you can get blue gums from lead poisoning
May 22 13:06:17 <Stephmw> close enough?
May 22 13:09:02 * CM just got Faith No More - Easy as the Ford Global Meeting waiting music.. (*sing* "I wanna be high, so high..")
May 22 13:10:49 <guaqua> CM: ?
May 22 13:11:56 <CM> guaqua: Sorry, way off topic. Just thought it was an odd song compared to the normal "elevator music" you get for waiting on these phone meetings..
May 22 13:14:09 <guaqua> is this an actual special version of the faith no more song or?
May 22 13:18:02 <Pander> an provides in the netherlands lets you upload a song that is played to the caller when he is waiting for you to answer the call. probably some network feature
May 22 13:18:09 <Pander> s/provides/provider
May 22 13:19:10 <CM> guaqua: It was the normal Faith No More song (Easy)
May 22 13:19:24 <Pander> of course (without breaking any copyright lays) one could have openmoko play an MP3 when you press the mute button or put the caller on hold.
May 22 13:19:28 <CM> It's just that I was surprised to get it at Ford
May 22 13:20:03 <guaqua> yes
May 22 13:20:07 <guaqua> normally the songs are crap
May 22 13:21:14 * CM wants Midlife chrisis, but the meeting has already started :P
May 22 13:21:27 <guaqua> haha
May 22 13:21:28 * ewon discovers fretsonfire
May 22 13:26:09 <CM> ewon: Don't! My roomate broke my F1 key on it ;)
May 22 13:28:14 <ewon> hah :)
May 22 13:40:59 <Elrond> mickey|lunch - Still there?
May 22 13:42:09 <aloril> in case you didn't see it already: http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-May/005354.html and http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/community/2007-May/005364.html
May 22 13:42:15 <aloril> (FCC certification almost done)
May 22 13:43:04 <Rince> yes, I liked that Answer from Sean ;)
May 22 13:43:36 <Elrond> Hi Rince :)
May 22 13:43:44 <Rince> Hiho Elrond ;)
May 22 13:47:07 <bmidgley> aloril: one way to avoid fcc problems is to make it so the bluetooth and gsm radios won't turn on
May 22 13:47:22 <bmidgley> that's the version i've got
May 22 13:48:56 <Elrond> Hmm, I think the normal builds turn on the gsm...
May 22 13:49:25 <aloril> bmidgley: ah, so they did that for USA versions...? P1 too?
May 22 13:49:48 <bmidgley> aloril I thought I had a p1 but it's just a late model p0
May 22 13:50:22 <bmidgley> as Elrond says it should work I just missed something
May 22 13:50:31 <Elrond> bmidgley - The prompt of u-boot should tell you, which version you have.
May 22 13:51:03 <Elrond> ... and if it loves to drain your battery, it's a P0. ;o)
May 22 13:51:58 <bmidgley> Elrond: yeah, I just tried to turn it on to check and it's drained ;(
May 22 13:53:24 <bmidgley> I really care more about bluetooth than gsm since that's what I've been hacking on
May 22 13:53:34 <Elrond> Ahh.
May 22 13:53:58 <Elrond> bmidgley - Connect usb, put in some corner and forget it there for two hours. ;)
May 22 13:54:07 <bmidgley> I can never get anything to show up to hciconfig
May 22 13:54:30 <Elrond> I got hcitool scan to wait a while and find nothing. ;)
May 22 13:54:48 <bmidgley> what steps did you do to get bt on?
May 22 13:54:51 <Elrond> I probably should ask my sister to turn on BT on her new mobile ;)
May 22 13:55:54 <Elrond> bmidgley - 1) lsusb has to show the bus. (You might need to load ohci-usb module)  2) Turn on the power of the BT  3) lsusb shows BT module.  4) hciconfig hci0 up
May 22 13:56:47 <Elrond> first module := kernel module;  second module := hardware module.  ;o)
May 22 13:56:51 <bmidgley> did you have to add modules to your phone or just use the default kernel mods in the rootfs?
May 22 13:57:22 <Elrond> bmidgley - Depends on which kernel/rootfs you use. ;)
May 22 13:57:52 <Elrond> bmidgley - My module yesterday had all the modules that I needed to add to my oldish rootfs.
May 22 13:58:32 <bmidgley> i'll give it another whack in a few hours
May 22 13:58:50 <Elrond> Yep. Just wait two hours for it to charge.
May 22 13:59:25 <Elrond> Yesterday I was pissed enough to charge the battery and then remove the battery. The phone is now on m desk at home, open, with the battery next to it. ;o)
May 22 14:02:32 <Elrond> Hmm, no new kernel on buildhost. So the backlight issue still persists. I'll check it with the 2006 kernel and then file a bug.
May 22 14:04:39 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - BTW: Do you see any risk in using the phone while the back is open? (except accidentally removing the battery)
May 22 14:05:19 <Stephmw> Elrond: I do that all the time with the protos at work - don't see why it should be dangerous with the neo
May 22 14:05:52 <Stephmw> Elrond: I also have exposed pcb and stick my fingers on that too ;-)
May 22 14:06:13 <Elrond> Stephmw - I wouldn't want to put my finger on the gsm output. ;)
May 22 14:06:36 <Stephmw> Elrond: well, ok, there are still some bits I leave in the case :)
May 22 14:06:36 <balrog-kun> cellphones can cause skin cancer
May 22 14:06:46 <Stephmw> balrog-kun: and malformed babies
May 22 14:06:51 <Stephmw> and, and
May 22 14:07:00 <balrog-kun> i only heard about skin cancer :)
May 22 14:07:02 <thomasg_> and probably you will get a third leg
May 22 14:07:05 <Elrond> (which reminds me to find the file to edit to turn the gsm off. I don't need it anyway.)
May 22 14:07:30 <guaqua> i'm thinking the wattage on gsm can't be very high
May 22 14:07:37 <thomasg_> max. 1w
May 22 14:07:42 <thomasg_> at least for the most normal phones
May 22 14:07:59 <Elrond> Well, 1W is already a lot.
May 22 14:08:03 <thomasg_> yes
May 22 14:08:08 <guaqua> it's nothing ;)
May 22 14:08:29 <Elrond> guaqua - We'll put you in front of a 1W laser and see, how you like it. ;o))
May 22 14:08:40 <thomasg_> ^^
May 22 14:08:53 <guaqua> i've been the grounding rod of 100W hf radios before....
May 22 14:09:06 <guaqua> talking about burning flesh there
May 22 14:09:12 <thomasg_> well, but with good signal gsm phones send about 0,3W or less, thats ok
May 22 14:09:22 <Stephmw> guaqua: ah. so that explains your weird behaviour... no wonder
May 22 14:09:30 * Stephmw hides
May 22 14:09:41 <Elrond> Stephmw - I didn't want to say _that_ loudly. ;o)
May 22 14:09:54 <DukeOfURL> a 10mW laser cut my coffee cup in half...
May 22 14:10:22 <guaqua> haha
May 22 14:10:28 <thomasg_> well, there are tv-stations sending about 1kW :)
May 22 14:10:33 <guaqua> anyhow, gsm isn't laser
May 22 14:10:47 <thomasg_> :)
May 22 14:11:00 <DukeOfURL> yes, and when you walk near the antennas you can actually feel it
May 22 14:11:06 <Elrond> Well, putting your finger directly on the antenna output... 1W on that small area...
May 22 14:11:30 <guaqua> it's the amps, not the voltage
May 22 14:11:41 <guaqua> so it's all about how much current actually goes
May 22 14:11:49 <thomasg_> we dont talk about voltage, we talk about watts
May 22 14:11:51 <guaqua> stings anyway
May 22 14:11:51 <Elrond> energy, really.
May 22 14:12:15 <guaqua> power itself doesn't hurt :)
May 22 14:12:26 <DukeOfURL> just burns
May 22 14:12:41 <Elrond> It has to go somewhere. Usually heat. Heat is not good for biologocial live forms.
May 22 14:12:43 <guaqua> if there is enough current, duke
May 22 14:12:46 <thomasg_> not power, but power pointing on a certain (small) area
May 22 14:13:05 <Elrond> thomasg_ - Right.
May 22 14:13:14 <Elrond> And 1W on a very small area is bad.
May 22 14:13:15 <guaqua> the power has to have a form
May 22 14:13:20 <thomasg_> yes Elrond, it definately is
May 22 14:13:48 <Elrond> No matter, what the energy form is. If it gets absorbed, you have a problem.
May 22 14:14:33 <thomasg_> our mobile basestations usally send with 10 watts. I wouldnt like to stand directly before them while the station is on-air
May 22 14:15:07 <guaqua> wouldn't do a thing, probably :)
May 22 14:15:08 <thomasg_> and the tv-station is sending about 0,5kW, that can grill you :)
May 22 14:15:35 <guaqua> we used to do stuff with 50W transmitters at the HF bands
May 22 14:15:47 <guaqua> at 900 MHz i dunno
May 22 14:16:06 <thomasg_> depends on the area it is used for
May 22 14:16:14 <Elrond> As I said: The energy form does not matter, if it gets absorbed.
May 22 14:16:35 <thomasg_> at 900 mhz we usually are at 10w (city) to 50w (mountains between villages)
May 22 14:17:04 <guaqua> i don't know how human body reacts to different frequencies
May 22 14:17:17 <Elrond> thomasg_ - I would have guess more. Didn't know, that the base stations operate at that levels.
May 22 14:17:47 <thomasg_> there might be stations with a higher output, but thats not usual
May 22 14:17:55 <Elrond> guaqua - I don't know eother. But higher frequencies are usually easier to absorb.
May 22 14:18:06 <thomasg_> I think so, too
May 22 14:18:41 <guaqua> http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ultra_high_frequency
May 22 14:18:46 <thomasg_> microwave-heaters (you have in the kitchen) are in the 2.4 GHz band, seems to be ok :)
May 22 14:19:28 <Elrond> thomasg_ - Well, you wouldn't want to sit inside the microwave ofen. ;o)
May 22 14:20:03 <thomasg_> you're right :)
May 22 14:20:54 <thomasg_> they are about 150W to 1000W, wifi (also 2,4 GHz) is max. 1W (in germany)
May 22 14:21:45 <thomasg_> so imho wifi can hardly be responsible for health problems (exepct you sit directly before a spot the whole day) ^^
May 22 14:22:06 <SpeedEvil> In the UK, it's a 30mW limit.
May 22 14:22:28 <SpeedEvil> 30mW EIRP as I understand it.
May 22 14:22:32 <guaqua> there's no long-time evidence or research on the effects of radiation and issues related to it
May 22 14:23:02 * SpeedEvil stabs guaqua with the wobbly sword of imprecision.
May 22 14:23:06 <guaqua> radiation here covering also radio transmitters
May 22 14:23:10 <SpeedEvil> Non-ionising radiation.
May 22 14:23:12 <guaqua> or moreso
May 22 14:23:36 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - even GSM is relatively new.
May 22 14:24:05 <Elrond> thomasg_ - You have to seperate two health issues: physical changes and "stress".  Your body in parts might have parts, which are sensible to those UHF, and they get consused and you get low level stress.  The later I have no problem to believe in.
May 22 14:24:08 <SpeedEvil> And is very different in power levels and waveforms from the preceding analog.
May 22 14:24:31 <guaqua> different kind of short-wave and long-wave transmitters have been used for a long time, but usually the transmitters have been placed far from people
May 22 14:24:43 <guaqua> it's only a thing of the 90s to place transmitters everywhere
May 22 14:25:30 <Elrond> Right.
May 22 14:26:48 <guaqua> there's something: http://www.wave-guide.org/library/studies.html
May 22 14:28:45 <Sufflope_> counter
May 22 14:28:45 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 22:45:36 (4.948 +-4.9 days) (1245;212)
May 22 14:29:15 <Elrond> Oh, it's at half speed now. ;o)
May 22 14:29:15 <Stephmw> guaqua: aaargh. I tried to forget everything about waveguides once I left Uni :D
May 22 14:29:26 <guaqua> :D
May 22 14:31:03 <thomasg_> btw. I was wrong: our radio (audio) senders are sending about 0.1-0.5kW. tv stations are using 10kW to 50kW (100-700 MHz)
May 22 14:33:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2061 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-hxd8.patch: 
May 22 14:33:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: hxd8 changes (Matt Hsu):
May 22 14:33:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 1) USB charge enable
May 22 14:33:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 2) use correct PMU wake up condition
May 22 14:33:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 3) PMU PWM enable (for backlight)
May 22 14:33:31 <CIA-24> openmoko: 4) back light enable
May 22 14:33:33 <CIA-24> openmoko: 5) turn off RF power at startup
May 22 14:33:56 <drath> heh, guess Einstein had the Neo1973 counter in mind when he talked about time being relative
May 22 14:34:05 <guaqua> mm
May 22 14:34:17 <guaqua> what kind of antenna is there in the neo?
May 22 14:34:37 <mwester> ^^^ "5) turn off RF power at startup"  -- that checkin solves the RF issue nicely!  ;)
May 22 14:37:36 * Rince whishes it would already be october
May 22 14:40:00 * Stephmw does too
May 22 14:40:02 * SpeedEvil steals 5 months of Rince's life.
May 22 14:40:16 <Stephmw> except... if it already was, nothing would be ready :)
May 22 14:41:01 <Elrond> mwester - But only on the "hxd8", what ever that really is.
May 22 14:41:36 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2062 10/trunk/src/target/u-boot/patches/uboot-20061030-neo1973.patch: add definition PCF50606_OOCC1_EXTONWAK_NO_WAKEUP
May 22 14:41:41 <Elrond> guaqua - The antenna is depicted on the disassmebling wiki page.
May 22 14:41:43 <Rince> Stephmw: right now I have the problem of a sometimes-working-mobile and I am asking myself wether I want to have risk _and_ fun or only fun ;)
May 22 14:42:53 <Elrond> Rince - *giggle* The neo is currently not much better. Also "sometimes-working-mobile" ;o)
May 22 14:43:09 <SpeedEvil> However, in theory, it should get better.
May 22 14:43:39 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - In practice my old kernel has backlight support, the new one not. ;o)
May 22 14:44:01 <Elrond> (I load the new kernel only into RAM via dfu, then boot it, until it gets better)
May 22 14:44:37 <Rince> Elrond: then I could switch everytime ;)
May 22 14:45:31 <SpeedEvil> Can't it boot off the SD somehow?
May 22 14:45:50 <Elrond> Rince - Does your current mobile work reliably as a plain phone at least? Then it would be better than the neo. ;o)
May 22 14:46:10 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yes, it can. I just didn't yet bother to buy a microsd. :)
May 22 14:47:25 <mrcucumber> Elrond: we talked about getting me a bug to work on last time right?
May 22 14:47:37 <Elrond> mrcucumber - Yep.
May 22 14:47:52 <Rince> Elrond: sometimes yes. 
May 22 14:48:00 <Elrond> mrcucumber - Don't try to sue me for the bug I told you. This was a no-warranty-bug. ;o)
May 22 14:48:00 <Rince> apparently it misses calls or silently ignores them
May 22 14:48:30 <Elrond> Rince - Yuck. You didn't get a Neo by accident? ;o)
May 22 14:48:34 <Rince> nope
May 22 14:48:38 <Rince> it's an nokia 6220
May 22 14:49:28 <Elrond> So the neo is really a nokia 6220 in disguise? ;)
May 22 14:50:26 <Rince> maybe ;)
May 22 14:51:14 <LuitvD> hello everyone
May 22 14:51:33 <Elrond> Hi LuitvD 
May 22 14:51:38 <mrcucumber> Elrond:Is this the bug your talking about? http://www.flickr.com/photos_upload_done.gne
May 22 14:51:49 <mrcucumber> Elrond: where the keyboard layers under the taskmanager
May 22 14:51:56 <LuitvD> 'lo Elrond :)
May 22 14:52:05 <mrcucumber> opp bad url
May 22 14:52:10 <LuitvD> lol
May 22 14:52:19 <mrcucumber> http://www.flickr.com/photos/8414657@N05/509427426/
May 22 14:52:52 <Elrond> mrcucumber - Exactly! :-)
May 22 14:52:58 <LuitvD> lol, that's odd
May 22 14:53:19 <mrcucumber> What's the desired result?
May 22 14:55:13 <Elrond> mrcucumber - a) I don't know ;o)
May 22 14:55:34 <Elrond> mrcucumber - b) _Maybe_  http://www.flickr.com/photos/fbz/438761293/
May 22 14:56:03 <mrcucumber> yeah that's what I was thinking too
May 22 14:56:58 <mrcucumber> has their been much thought given to running the phone in landscape for certain opperations. 
May 22 14:57:19 <Elrond> mrcucumber - c) That app does not really need a keyboard (*I* think), so closing the keyboard would also be an option.
May 22 14:57:28 <webjames> mrcucumber: i should hope you could play a video, landscape
May 22 14:57:57 <Elrond> mrcucumber - I haven't read much about landscape on the wiki's gui design pages. But I have not read all of them.
May 22 14:58:02 <mrcucumber> I well like having the keyboard in  landscape would give you alot more realestate
May 22 14:58:48 <Elrond> Anyway: Where is the option to put the thing into landscape mode? (I haven't found it in the rootfs, I have on the thing currently)
May 22 14:59:17 <Elrond> Yep. In portrait mode the keyboard is -- even with stylus -- hard to use.
May 22 15:00:29 <mrcucumber> Would having a sort of sub-application that turns almost the entire screen into a landscape keyboard with just a line or two of text entry at the top give you enough space to use it comfortably as a thumb keyboard
May 22 15:03:18 <Elrond> mrcucumber - Might be. I don't know.
May 22 15:03:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bluetooth_Support]]
May 22 15:04:01 <mrcucumber> Okay, well just a though, I'll look at hooking into the input methods later, but first let's get my first bug fixed
May 22 15:04:15 <mrcucumber> so an apropriate solution is to just disallow keyboard use?
May 22 15:06:36 <Elrond> mrcucumber - In that specific app, *I* 'd say yes.
May 22 15:07:33 <Elrond> I'm getting home now. 'll back in an hour.
May 22 15:34:34 <TRIsoft> gtg, cu
May 22 15:38:06 <Magon> mrcucumber: hi, i am hacking the finger wheel and toolbox a bit
May 22 15:40:12 <Magon> if fixing the bug needs to modify moko-finger-* tell me i have it changed a bit and still not commited to SVN
May 22 15:43:20 <mrcucumber>  Magon:Will do
May 22 15:44:13 <Magon> I have still some issues with my code and i need someone to update it to SVN..i have no access
May 22 15:47:42 <PBeck> hi
May 22 16:06:35 <Elrond> Hi hrw! :)
May 22 16:06:55 <hrw> hi Elrond 
May 22 16:07:58 <Elrond> hrw - Did you try u-boot-gta01bv3-r8_70124c2602ae2d4c5d3dba05b482d91548242de8_0_2040.bin  on the P0?
May 22 16:09:11 <hrw> no
May 22 16:09:20 <hrw> my p0 has 17xx uboot iirc
May 22 16:09:35 <Elrond> hrw - Could you try it?
May 22 16:12:26 <hrw> basically I can.
May 22 16:12:39 <hrw> if neo will fail then I will have to get my debug board from friend
May 22 16:14:43 <hrw> Elrond: 2062 is available
May 22 16:15:20 <Elrond> hrw - I have an one report for the 2040... I would like another. ;-)
May 22 16:15:33 <Elrond> ... report, that it works. :-)
May 22 16:16:04 <hrw> so want me to test 2040?
May 22 16:16:13 <Elrond> Yes. :)
May 22 16:18:35 <hrw> cool.. usb subsystem is mad again
May 22 16:19:13 <hrw> [13518.570582] usb 1-4.1: device not accepting address 27, error -110
May 22 16:19:40 <Elrond> Huh, what's that?
May 22 16:21:11 <hrw> Elrond: 2040 started on my bv3
May 22 16:21:26 <hrw> booting now
May 22 16:21:32 <Elrond> hrw - Great. :-)
May 22 16:23:39 <hrw> booted
May 22 16:23:45 <Elrond> Good. :-)
May 22 16:25:29 <hrw> 2062 also works
May 22 16:25:45 <koen> does 2062 properly erase flash?
May 22 16:26:03 <jeddy3_> mmmjahaja
May 22 16:26:59 <jeddy3_> oops wrong channel =S
May 22 16:27:30 <Elrond> koen - I think, that has been fixed since months?
May 22 16:27:51 <koen> Elrond: is _was_ fixed and then came back
May 22 16:28:47 <Elrond> koen - Yuck.. No?
May 22 16:29:08 <koen> yes, it came back
May 22 16:29:15 <Elrond> I love that.
May 22 16:29:25 <koen> probably due to the 'dynparts' thing they implemented
May 22 16:29:27 <hrw> I do not remember when last time I flashed rootfs on neo
May 22 16:29:41 <koen> I now know for sure that "testing" isn't in the openmoko dictionary
May 22 16:29:41 <Elrond> hrw :-)
May 22 16:30:08 <Elrond> koen - Yeah. The newest kernel does not properly do the backlight on Bv3.
May 22 16:30:22 <Elrond> Testing the watchdog on that kernel now. ;o)
May 22 16:30:34 <koen> Elrond: also see the "commit, revert" cycle
May 22 16:30:55 <koen> it seems the o-hand people are the only people that have a clue about programming.....
May 22 16:31:23 <Elrond> Okay, the watchdog works on the 2006 kernel build.
May 22 16:31:41 <Elrond> hrw - Can you post the md5sum of the 2062 u-boot you tested?
May 22 16:31:50 <Elrond> hrw - And the 2040, please. :)
May 22 16:33:50 <hrw> Elrond: I grabbed them from http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/
May 22 16:34:11 <Elrond> hrw - Yeah, I just want to make sure, that my download is the same. :-)
May 22 16:34:16 <hrw> 60c5aeba1bd6642b05b3a5e6f2dafe83  u-boot-gta01bv3-r8_70124c2602ae2d4c5d3dba05b482d91548242de8_0_2040.bin
May 22 16:34:19 <hrw> 716f1eba9b0f2be4a0a3be4a56724935  u-boot-gta01bv3-r8_70124c2602ae2d4c5d3dba05b482d91548242de8_0_2062.bin
May 22 16:34:38 <LuitvD> aaaah, numberz :|
May 22 16:34:55 <Elrond> hrw - Great, many thanks. :-)
May 22 16:35:00 <CoreDump|home> !stab firefox
May 22 16:35:04 <LuitvD> lol
May 22 16:35:06 <LuitvD> why?
May 22 16:35:57 <hrw> ~curse firefox
May 22 16:36:09 <apt> May the fleas of a thousand camels infest your most sensitive regions, firefox !
May 22 16:36:19 <CoreDump|home> this thing takes an ungodly time to compile
May 22 16:36:58 <hrw|gone> cu
May 22 16:37:05 <ewon> o/
May 22 16:37:07 <Elrond> hrw - Bye and thanks! :-))
May 22 16:37:17 <CoreDump|home> NOTE: package firefox-1.0.7-r0: task do_install: started yessss
May 22 16:37:18 <Elrond> <-- updates wiki soon.
May 22 16:41:05 <Philippe> CoreDump|home: well it is even worse when you have a multi-cpu machine as all the mozilla builds disable the make jobserver by default... (so no make -j4)
May 22 16:41:27 <CoreDump|home> Philippe: ouch
May 22 16:42:47 <Philippe> grrr. I cannot manage to get the dialer to work on my machine... probably due to a missing gsmd...
May 22 16:51:50 <Elrond> GTA01Bv3 # version
May 22 16:51:50 <Elrond> U-Boot 1.2.0-moko9_r8_70124c2602ae2d4c5d3dba05b482d91548242de8_0_2040 (May 19 2007 - 06:59:22)
May 22 16:51:54 <Elrond> wee. :-)
May 22 16:52:48 <dietricha> counter
May 22 16:52:49 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 21:33:34 (4.898 +-4.9 days) (1246;212)
May 22 16:55:26 <don-o> dou, im starting to get my hopes up again. now i know how charlie brown feels about the football :)
May 22 16:56:44 <Elrond> don-o - Huh?
May 22 16:56:54 <Elrond> BTW, what unit is that assumed to be?
May 22 16:56:55 <Elrond> root@fic-gta01:/sys/devices/platform/s3c2410-i2c/i2c-0/0-0008$ cat chgcur 
May 22 16:56:55 <Elrond> 2293
May 22 16:57:37 <don-o> Elrond: im just rambling. i lost my cell phone and i would like to make the leap to a neo.
May 22 16:58:34 <Elrond> don-o - Ahh. I remember. Scroll up for the discussion with Rince. Basicly you don't want a neo NOW.
May 22 16:58:46 <Rince> *g*
May 22 16:59:43 <don-o> Elrond: checking
May 22 17:01:22 <don-o> Rince was saying the nokia was unreliable
May 22 17:01:33 <Rince> the same goes for the neo right now
May 22 17:01:35 <don-o> i understand that the neo would not really work as a phone
May 22 17:02:02 <don-o> but its a matter of software to get it going reliably, i assume.
May 22 17:02:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:MokoMakefile]] [[QEMU]] [[Qemu]] [[Xephyr]] [[Xoo]] [[Wishlist:Mesh_Networking]]
May 22 17:12:09 <Elrond> don-o - That's the basic assumption. That's why I added a big "NOW" to the statement.
May 22 17:12:38 <don-o> Elrond: i do want to get the hardware NOW as its a software issue
May 22 17:12:45 <don-o> Elrond: at least i hope so 
May 22 17:13:17 <Elrond> don-o - But it wont replace your phone NOW.
May 22 17:13:35 <don-o> Elrond: it would be safest to wait and let others be the guinea pig to see if the software will become stabilized without exposing a hardware bug
May 22 17:13:52 <don-o> Elrond: but i lost my cell phone and im ready to take a chance as im not going to get two phones.
May 22 17:18:53 <LuitvD> don-o: do you user your phone a lot for critical things?
May 22 17:19:09 <Rince> LuitvD: is "calling" critical?
May 22 17:19:09 <LuitvD> if no: get a neo :P
May 22 17:19:14 <don-o> LuitvD: nope. i got a new job where im working all the time :( so i hardy make calls anymare.
May 22 17:19:38 <LuitvD> Rince: well, calling home saying you will be a little late today isn't critical, IMHO...
May 22 17:20:07 <LuitvD> if you are on the road for your job every day, and get your assignments called through via mobile phone, THAT's critical
May 22 17:20:31 <don-o> voicemail is completely a function of the carrier, right?
May 22 17:20:37 <LuitvD> don-o: yes :)
May 22 17:20:39 <don-o> if the phone is freaking out or ignoring calls, voicemail still works.
May 22 17:20:44 <LuitvD> luckily it is
May 22 17:21:56 <Elrond> Okay... disabled gsm powering up. :-)
May 22 17:22:04 <LuitvD> Rince: critical use of a mobile phone = when you have to be able to be called at all time
May 22 17:22:16 <LuitvD> Rince: and have to be able to call at any time
May 22 17:23:06 <Rince> LuitvD: okay, I'll wait until september
May 22 17:23:17 <Elrond> ;)
May 22 17:23:37 <LuitvD> that's the right thing to do if you don't want to use beta (or even alpha) software
May 22 17:23:46 <Rince> (or grab the p0 if elrond doesn't need it anymore)
May 22 17:23:47 <Rince> ;)
May 22 17:24:21 <LuitvD> thought I had dibs on his p0 :P
May 22 17:24:46 <Elrond> Rince - It's not mine, so the original owner has to decide, where it should go, when I'm done with it. :)
May 22 17:24:58 <LuitvD> lol
May 22 17:25:10 <Rince> ;)
May 22 17:25:21 <LuitvD> Elrond: who's P0 device do you have then?
May 22 17:25:31 <Rince> then I won't need it since I am end-user
May 22 17:25:31 <Elrond> LuitvD - stefan_schmidt's.
May 22 17:26:04 <Elrond> Rince - Right. The p0 is definitely not for end-users. standby-time on the order of 4 hours. ;o)
May 22 17:26:17 <Rince> ok ;)
May 22 17:26:38 <LuitvD> Elrond: that's because of some hardware malfunction?
May 22 17:26:48 <LuitvD> Elrond: or design mistake?
May 22 17:27:20 <Elrond> LuitvD - I don't know the details, but "hardware issue on all P0" is probably the right term.
May 22 17:27:29 <LuitvD> :P
May 22 17:27:31 <LuitvD> right
May 22 17:27:34 <Elrond> If you want to show a working P0 to a friend, remove the battery for carrying. ;)
May 22 17:27:42 <LuitvD> fixed in P1 already I guess?
May 22 17:28:03 <Elrond> According to the wiki, it's fixed on P1.
May 22 17:28:07 <LuitvD> err... can't you turn it OFF with the battery on?
May 22 17:28:20 <LuitvD> or is the OFF time 4 hours? :P
May 22 17:28:58 <Elrond> In _theory_, the OFF time should be more. in practice this P0 thingy just eats every single electron which is 3cm away from it. ;o)
May 22 17:29:48 <LuitvD> oeh my :) that sounds interesting :)
May 22 17:35:09 <Elrond> LuitvD - One could also say, it depends on how nice you are to it. ;o)  When I was at a friend, I didn't switch it off correctly (just the screen blanked.), put it carefully in the box, moved home, 2 hours later, it still was nicely full-on (except screen).   On the other hand, yesterday morning, I showed it my mum, then switched it off (this time correctly, I'm quite sure), and put it in the corner. Of course at the evning, I had to charge it fo
May 22 17:35:37 <balrog-kun> ossman: ping
May 22 17:35:46 <ossman> balrog-kun, pong
May 22 17:36:33 <koen> Elrond: My dillema is "Show p0 that drains power like crazy or p1 that can't make phonecalls"
May 22 17:36:41 <LuitvD> Elrond: nice :P
May 22 17:36:42 <balrog-kun> ossman: i was wondering if you happen to know why if the recent mmc driver asking SD card to report the extended CSD
May 22 17:36:56 <Elrond> koen - Why does your P1 not do calls?
May 22 17:37:01 <koen> dunno
May 22 17:37:03 <balrog-kun> ossman: my card doesn't know about CMD8 and correctly times out on this command
May 22 17:37:05 <LuitvD> koen: why cant the p1 make calls?
May 22 17:37:05 <koen> I suspect bugs
May 22 17:37:13 <LuitvD> XD late
May 22 17:37:17 <balrog-kun> thus Linux is unable to initialise it
May 22 17:37:20 <koen> but since I can't reflash due to uboot being broken *again*....
May 22 17:37:34 <ossman> balrog-kun, actually, it is telling the card that it support SDHC
May 22 17:37:43 <ossman> which is CMD8 in the SD dialect
May 22 17:37:47 <loufoque> p1 can't make phonecalls ?
May 22 17:37:49 <LuitvD> koen: can't you force it to flash with the dev tool?
May 22 17:37:49 <loufoque> that's pretty cool
May 22 17:38:00 <ossman> balrog-kun, doesn't prevent init unless the card is broken
May 22 17:38:03 <koen> LuitvD: 30MB over jtag?!?!?
May 22 17:38:10 <Elrond> loufoque - koen's P1 can't make calls.
May 22 17:38:10 <LuitvD> koen: ah, right :P
May 22 17:38:10 <balrog-kun> ossman: but it should also support plain SD cards too, right?
May 22 17:38:16 <ossman> yes
May 22 17:38:26 <loufoque> Elrond: what about others?
May 22 17:38:38 <LuitvD> koen: can't you fix just u-boot over jtag then?
May 22 17:38:38 <Elrond> loufoque - I don't know.
May 22 17:38:54 <koen> LuitvD: I think I can even flash uboot using uboot
May 22 17:38:55 <balrog-kun> ossman: i don't quite see how it should support plain SD looking at the current driver
May 22 17:39:04 <balrog-kun> ossman: SD specs don't have CMD8, and Linux bails out when the command times out
May 22 17:39:05 <koen> LuitvD: I just need to issue "erase <foo>"
May 22 17:39:37 <Elrond> ossman - BTW: May I ask you some noon SD questions at some time?
May 22 17:39:40 <don-o> koen: you know what i'd love, is if you made a video of the P0 and/or P1 booting up and doing something, anything interesting. then posting to youtube.
May 22 17:39:41 * koen is on openmoko strike till next week
May 22 17:39:45 <Elrond> s/noon/noob/
May 22 17:39:45 <apt> Elrond meant: ossman - BTW: May I ask you some noob SD questions at some time?
May 22 17:40:07 <ossman> balrog-kun, hang on, I'll check the moko kernel
May 22 17:40:17 <loufoque> koen: do all P1 phones have that problem?
May 22 17:40:18 <LuitvD> koen: why is that?
May 22 17:40:27 <balrog-kun> ossman: this is non-openmoko related (sorry to bother you about it here)
May 22 17:40:35 <balrog-kun> ossman: i'm using the OMAP mmc host
May 22 17:40:39 <koen> LuitvD: I'm sick of the stupid bugs and am waiting for them to get fixed
May 22 17:40:44 <ossman> balrog-kun, I'm not fuzzy ;)
May 22 17:40:48 <balrog-kun> but it doesn't look like host related
May 22 17:40:57 <koen> LuitvD: but since I'll be on radio next week wrt openmoko....
May 22 17:41:12 <ossman> balrog-kun, anyway, in mmc_send_if_cond you can see that it returns MMC_ERR_NONE for timeouts
May 22 17:41:20 <LuitvD> koen: on what radio program?
May 22 17:41:23 <ossman> so it shouldn't break (and has been tested not to do so)
May 22 17:41:28 <koen> "radio online" on radio 1
May 22 17:41:32 <ossman> Elrond, go right ahead
May 22 17:41:45 <LuitvD> koen: nice :) I'll set up a reminder
May 22 17:41:46 <balrog-kun> ossman: humm, right
May 22 17:41:53 <balrog-kun> i need to reread all the code
May 22 17:42:03 <ossman> do you have a dmesg dump?
May 22 17:42:11 <ossman> I might be able to spot the error :)
May 22 17:42:30 <LuitvD> koen: is that a weekly program?
May 22 17:42:37 <koen> yes
May 22 17:42:49 <LuitvD> so the 29th?
May 22 17:42:55 <LuitvD> is the one?
May 22 17:43:07 <balrog-kun> ossman: all the dmesg shows is two times a CMD8 timeout when i instert the card followed by not reading the partition table (i.e. not followed by anything :p )
May 22 17:43:13 <Elrond> ossman - As far, as I understood, one can access SD cards via SPI. A friend wanted to do that, but it seems, he didn't find useful specs on that. Any recommendations?  (we want to connect a _small_ microcontroller to it. That's why SPI is an option.
May 22 17:43:33 <ossman> balrog-kun, you do not have MMC_DEBUG enabled?
May 22 17:43:36 <koen> LuitvD: that's the plan
May 22 17:43:44 <LuitvD> koen: good luck then :P
May 22 17:43:48 <balrog-kun> ossman: that was going to be my next step :)
May 22 17:43:56 <ossman> Elrond, it's in the physical spec at the end
May 22 17:44:14 <ossman> balrog-kun, then you're just guessing wildly right now ;)
May 22 17:45:02 <Elrond> ossman - According to my friend, the spec he got, was only good to attract people, but did leave out the useful stuff. Could that be?
May 22 17:45:45 <balrog-kun> ossman: yeah, now i noticed i had misread the != for == in the err = mmc_read_ext_csd(card); if (err != MMC_ERR_NONE) goto free_card;
May 22 17:45:59 <ossman> Elrond, used to be. now it's complete enough to implement
May 22 17:46:33 <ossman> balrog-kun, heh
May 22 17:47:22 <Elrond> ossman - Okay. Can you get me URL of the complete spec?
May 22 17:47:24 <Elrond> Hmmm:
May 22 17:47:25 <Elrond> <4>pcf50606_work: INT1=0x00 INT2=0x0c INT3=0x00:CHGFOK CHGERR 
May 22 17:47:34 <Elrond> What is that stupid thing doing there?
May 22 17:48:05 <ossman> http://www.sdcard.org/confirm/confirm_memorycard.aspx
May 22 17:48:13 <LuitvD> koen: maybe useful for you too, if you're interested, TU Delft will soon open it's information on 3 master studies... of which one is micro-electronics
May 22 17:48:36 <LuitvD> koen: might be nice to take a look at :) I know I'll like it
May 22 17:48:56 <koen> TU Delft sucks
May 22 17:49:04 <koen> loudmouthed do-nothings
May 22 17:49:37 <Elrond> ossman - Thanks! :-))
May 22 17:49:46 <koen> "WE HAVE THE BEST <foo>!!!" "no, you have the _only_ <foo>"
May 22 17:50:08 <LuitvD> koen: so you're not interested in the course-material and tests of the master study of micro-electronics?
May 22 17:50:24 <koen> not really
May 22 17:50:28 <LuitvD> XD
May 22 17:50:30 <koen> <- signal processing dude
May 22 17:50:44 <LuitvD> koen: analog stuff?
May 22 17:50:56 <LuitvD> koen: what study did you do then? ...
May 22 17:51:07 <koen> EE
May 22 17:51:16 <LuitvD> err... what?
May 22 17:51:23 <LuitvD> electronic engeneering?
May 22 17:51:28 <koen> yes
May 22 17:52:08 * LuitvD is going for Electronic Engeneering & Design next year
May 22 17:55:21 <MrC_> hi
May 22 17:55:54 <abraxa_> Heya MrC
May 22 17:57:20 <MrC_> when is the OpenMoko will be released?
May 22 17:57:56 <poffy> MrC_: Do you mean the phone?
May 22 17:58:03 <poffy> Neo1973
May 22 17:58:09 <Rince> September
May 22 17:59:35 <aloril2> counter
May 22 17:59:35 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 21:00:11 (4.875 +-4.9 days) (1247;212)
May 22 18:00:19 <aloril2> see above page and especially Neo1973 wiki page linked from it
May 22 18:01:37 <_llll_> there's /away   
May 22 18:01:40 <_llll_> oops
May 22 18:04:45 <MrC_> Yep the phone
May 22 18:05:59 <MrC_> I have seen somewhere it will be 310 E or 350 $ ,i think it is a bit expensive ,because there is no EDGE or 3G
May 22 18:06:07 <LuitvD> aloril2: so the P1 counter is whithin it's "could be any time now" region again now? :P
May 22 18:06:13 <MrC_> but anyway i would to have a try 
May 22 18:07:00 <LuitvD> aloril2: last time it jumped back 2 weeks ... lets hope it won't do that now :)
May 22 18:07:04 <MrC_> I have seen somewhere that i will be 310 Euros or 350 $
May 22 18:07:16 <LuitvD> MrC_: it WILL be 350$
May 22 18:07:45 <MrC_> I should they could to improve it a bit
May 22 18:08:08 <LuitvD> MrC_: roughly translated to euro's that's 260€ ... 
May 22 18:08:11 <MrC_> add some 3G or EDGE,and perhaps wi-fi(wlan)
May 22 18:08:14 <Rince> "I should they could"?
May 22 18:08:48 <Rince> MrC_: it is the first version. Later versions will have wi-fi or 3G
May 22 18:09:13 <LuitvD> MrC_: upon mass-market release it will have WiFi
May 22 18:09:34 <MrC_> well,i would love to buy if it will be cheap,bucause you can get a Nokia E65 for the same amount with more features,but i buy it to help the Linux community
May 22 18:10:00 <MrC_> ok I hope then,because GPRS is to slow for data packet
May 22 18:10:21 <LuitvD> MrC_: well... it's slow, but it's usable...
May 22 18:10:28 * Rince thinks gprs is quite okay for ssh ;)
May 22 18:10:57 <LuitvD> Rince: and recieving and sending mail? IRC chatting? what about those? :P
May 22 18:12:20 <Rince> LuitvD: mail no. irc is my client over sh ;)
May 22 18:12:21 <Rince> sshj
May 22 18:13:16 <abraxa_> MrC_: Keep in mind the $350 are for the phase 1 device - the price for the mass market release will be lower, I assume
May 22 18:13:19 <LuitvD> Rince: why would you want a high speed connection for simple POP mail recieving?
May 22 18:13:32 <LuitvD> abraxa_: that's not been discussed yet I guess...
May 22 18:13:37 <Rince> LuitvD: why do I want to try to get my mails to my mobile? with 3000 mails/day, that's too much..
May 22 18:14:12 <LuitvD> Rince: ... do you subscribe to every mailing list on the internet or something? :P
May 22 18:14:31 <Rince> LuitvD: nope. 70% of that is spam
May 22 18:14:42 <Rince> but I still get a lot since I am on quite a lot mailinglists...
May 22 18:15:04 <LuitvD> Rince: get a decent spam filter then... my POP account doesn't let me download the spam XD
May 22 18:15:18 <Rince> LuitvD: I have a decent spamfilter I think...
May 22 18:15:39 <_buz> 2000 spam per day? and i thought my 400 were bad
May 22 18:16:08 <LuitvD> lol, I guess I'm lucky having 'just' 50 spam mails per day
May 22 18:16:28 <Plasma_GR> i was having 10
May 22 18:16:39 <Rince> _buz: my address is quite often used on Usenet, so...
May 22 18:16:44 <Plasma_GR> and now only 2-5 and hotmail spam filter blocks them all
May 22 18:16:50 <_buz> Rince: so was mine
May 22 18:17:03 <LuitvD> the worst thing to happen is having your domain name in some spammer's spoofing list...
May 22 18:17:18 <Rince> *nod*
May 22 18:17:27 <_buz> at least these days other admins dont give you crap about that anymore
May 22 18:17:34 <LuitvD> that's when you'll realize how much mail a spammer can send, because 75% of his sent mail gets back at you as undelivered
May 22 18:17:37 <_buz> like its any of your fault
May 22 18:17:51 <Rince> LuitvD: been there, have had that...
May 22 18:17:54 <Rince> (more than once...)
May 22 18:18:11 <_buz> ... and didnt even get a tshirt
May 22 18:18:38 <Plasma_GR> heh
May 22 18:18:54 <LuitvD> Rince: me too... my domain was on the list of a couple of zombied supercomputers once...
May 22 18:19:14 <Rince> *nod*
May 22 18:19:23 <LuitvD> quite anoyingly forcing me to disable my catch-all feature...
May 22 18:20:15 <MrC_> i hope then,abraxa
May 22 18:20:22 <_buz> lol, i gave up on catch all years ago
May 22 18:20:34 <MrC_> i am looking forward to get one
May 22 18:20:57 <LuitvD> Rince: I found out it was a supercomputer when I read something about a supercomputer getting fixed of that, which made me try my catch-all again :)
May 22 18:21:11 <LuitvD> quite funny to see how slow some email-daemons can be :D
May 22 18:21:36 <LuitvD> some undeliverable messages came back 2 full months after the mail was sent
May 22 18:22:13 <LuitvD> as if the first week isn't enaugh to realize the e-mail adress simply ISN'T THERE
May 22 18:22:21 <LuitvD> lol
May 22 18:22:25 <Plasma_GR> lmao
May 22 18:22:59 <MrC_> does OpenMoko has a camera?
May 22 18:23:41 <webjames> OpenMoko is the software, and the Neo1973 is the hardware (phone) and no currently it does not have a camera
May 22 18:23:44 <_buz> thats actually not slowness
May 22 18:23:48 <_buz> thats braindead configuration
May 22 18:24:02 <LuitvD> hell, 72 hours is enaugh to see that... I can't see why somebody setup his mail daemon to hold-and-retry undelivered mail for 1440 hours :)
May 22 18:24:44 <LuitvD> _buz: yeah, guess the man (or worse: woman) who configured that daemon typed 1440 instead of 144 XD
May 22 18:25:10 <_buz> i think anything more than 24h is bad these days
May 22 18:25:13 <LuitvD> the first being 60 days (2 months) and the second being 6 days
May 22 18:25:20 <_buz> i've even had systems wit hless than 6h
May 22 18:25:24 <_buz> i rather get bounces early
May 22 18:25:32 <LuitvD> yeah, on the current internet 3 hours is sufficient
May 22 18:25:36 <MrC_> ok
May 22 18:25:56 <_buz> mpf kvm disk io is sloooow
May 22 18:26:12 <LuitvD> some mailer daemons even send you an undelivered message after 1 hour, and resend that mail every 24 hours for 6 days :P
May 22 18:26:18 <_buz> yeah
May 22 18:26:20 <loufoque> LuitvD: what's with the (or worse: woman) ?
May 22 18:26:28 <_buz> obviously, he's a misogynist
May 22 18:27:04 <LuitvD> loufoque: nothing :) just my frustration inserting things I don't really mean
May 22 18:27:20 <loufoque> is there any girl working on openmoko?
May 22 18:27:47 <_buz> cant remember reading any obviously female name on the ml myself
May 22 18:28:16 <loufoque> LuitvD must be scaring them away
May 22 18:28:32 <loufoque> ;)
May 22 18:28:46 <LuitvD> _buz: I did see a flickr photo of a girl that had a pre-p0 phone...
May 22 18:29:07 <_buz> marketing shot=
May 22 18:29:10 <_buz> ?
May 22 18:29:26 <loufoque> if she was blonde and had big breasts, then it wasn't a developer
May 22 18:29:31 <LuitvD> lol
May 22 18:29:37 <jserv2> balrog-kun: hi!
May 22 18:29:45 <Rince> sounds like LaF0rges girl ;)
May 22 18:29:52 <Rince> (but she isn't blonde :)
May 22 18:30:26 <LuitvD> username fbz_  ... ringing a bell anywhere?
May 22 18:30:30 <balrog-kun> hi jserv2 
May 22 18:30:59 <LuitvD> hmm, guess she had it in her hands at FOSdem
May 22 18:31:03 <jserv2> balrog-kun: I've seen the recent changes against qemu-neo1973 regarding loadvm/savevm.
May 22 18:31:27 <jserv2> balrog-kun: however, I didn't have luck with that.
May 22 18:31:41 <balrog-kun> jserv2: yup, it's now possible to resume right into a running OpenMoko
May 22 18:31:51 <balrog-kun> jserv2: what was the problem?
May 22 18:32:21 <jserv2> balrog-kun: I launch qemu-system-arm with -snapshot, and type "stop" -> "savevm save" in qemu monitor
May 22 18:32:55 <jserv2> balrog-kun: but I didn't find any file saved as filename "save".
May 22 18:33:00 <jserv2> balrog-kun: any idea?
May 22 18:33:05 <balrog-kun> jserv2: i'm not sure but i think -snapshot will cause qemu to discard all changes (including the VM snapshot) at exit
May 22 18:33:25 <balrog-kun> jserv2: qemu doesn't save snapshots to separate files
May 22 18:33:32 <balrog-kun> only as part of a disk image
May 22 18:33:39 <jserv2> hum!
May 22 18:34:03 <MrC_> how OpenMoko will be sold?It will be on internet or there will be special distributor ?
May 22 18:34:23 <balrog-kun> jserv2: here's how i tested:
May 22 18:34:30 <MrC_> like other mobile phones,on the open market
May 22 18:34:37 <balrog-kun> ./qemu-img create -b openmoko/openmoko-flash.image -f qcow2 omoko
May 22 18:34:56 <balrog-kun> jserv2: then used "omoko" as the mtdblock image, and without -snapshot
May 22 18:35:15 <balrog-kun> jserv2: then in the monitor i typed "savevm abc" and "quit"
May 22 18:35:50 <balrog-kun> then running qemu with the same parameters "info snapshots" should display the "abc" snapshot and "loadvm abc" should bring you back to the saved state
May 22 18:36:15 <jserv2> balrog-kun: ok, I will try it. Thanks!
May 22 18:36:38 <balrog-kun> good luck :)
May 22 18:37:26 <roh> re
May 22 18:39:40 <balrog-kun> i think i'm going to make the default to be a qcow2 overlay image
May 22 18:54:02 <webjames> does the 'Messages' program work for anyone?
May 22 18:55:18 <Elrond> BTW: Any idea, which package contains the tools for rotating the screen? (turning it into landscape mode)
May 22 18:55:29 <Elrond> webjames - Not really. ;)
May 22 18:55:47 <webjames> Elrond: okay cool, thought maybe it was just me
May 22 18:56:00 <jserv2> balrog-kun: it works!
May 22 18:56:06 <balrog-kun> jserv2: cool
May 22 18:56:40 * jserv2 attempts to write something to wiki. :-)
May 22 18:57:04 <balrog-kun> jserv2: it's kindof a work-in-progress now
May 22 18:57:51 <Elrond> webjames - Any idea to my question?
May 22 18:58:03 <jserv2> balrog-kun: ok, but I am shocked that it even works on win32.
May 22 18:58:41 <jserv2> kudos to amazing qemu and its contributors!
May 22 18:59:14 <balrog-kun> Elrond: the X extension is called xrandr
May 22 18:59:22 <balrog-kun> i'm not sure if you need something else to make use of it
May 22 18:59:27 <webjames> Elrond: sorry what was your question
May 22 18:59:51 <balrog-kun> there's a matchbox applet to trigger the rotation, but it can be also done from inside the gpe settings dialog
May 22 19:01:11 <Elrond> balrog-kun - I don't think, I've either this matchbox applet nor the GPE settings thing on this one.
May 22 19:01:40 <balrog-kun> Elrond: it is possible that the applet comes inthe same package with xrandr, but not sure
May 22 19:03:28 <Elrond> Ahh, the xrandr cmdline tool is installed.
May 22 19:03:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Talk:Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[MokoMakefile]] [[Talk:FAQ]] [[Getting_OpenMoko_working_on_host_with_Xephyr]] [[Flashing_openmoko]]
May 22 19:05:27 <kiney> gounter
May 22 19:05:34 <kiney> counter
May 22 19:05:34 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 20:27:12 (4.852 +-4.9 days) (1248;212)
May 22 19:06:35 <Elrond> balrog-kun - tihi... xrandr on the cmdline works. ;-) Not as expected, but it works. ;)
May 22 19:10:17 <balrog-kun> good to know
May 22 19:10:36 <Elrond> And got a nice GUI bug using it. ;-)
May 22 19:10:42 <Elrond> I'll upload a pic to flickr soon.
May 22 19:24:10 <don-o> Elrond: does your camera have a movie-mode? :)
May 22 19:25:45 <Elrond> don-o - Huh, why that?
May 22 19:26:55 <don-o> Elrond: id be interesting to me, and i think anyone who has never picked up a neo before.
May 22 19:27:05 <don-o> Elrond: ive only seen stills. it'd be fun to watch it boot.
May 22 19:27:07 <Elrond> don-o - Ahh. ;-)
May 22 19:27:26 <Elrond> Well, here's a screenshot of another GUI bug: http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=509749982&size=o
May 22 19:28:05 <webjames> oh yeah
May 22 19:29:04 <Elrond> <-- heads away for food.
May 22 19:29:07 <Elrond> Later, guys.
May 22 19:29:15 <webjames> later
May 22 19:41:48 <filippo> counter
May 22 19:41:48 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 20:09:05 (4.840 +-4.8 days) (1249;212)
May 22 19:42:28 <don-o> awesome collection of openmoko photos, including FreeCiv! http://www.flickr.com/photos/ph5/417853278/in/photostream/
May 22 19:45:00 <webjames> nice, any more collections?
May 22 19:45:04 <webjames> i want to see a video
May 22 19:46:03 <ml8128> Hello, I would like to know if P1 will be somewhat usable, or just dev plateform ?
May 22 19:47:37 <webjames> you should be able to make calls on it
May 22 19:48:02 <cjb> wow, those are great photos
May 22 19:48:35 <ml8128> webjames: ok, and what about basic PDA functionnalities, like diary and todo list ?
May 22 19:48:56 <webjames> yes, calender, tasks, contacts
May 22 19:51:06 <ml8128> any idea about the P1.5 discount for P1 buyers ?
May 22 19:51:29 <webjames> unfortunately not, maybe someone else though
May 22 19:51:37 <ml8128> I didn't find anything on the wiki about that...
May 22 19:52:02 <abraxa_> ml8128: Will be announced when P1 becomes generally available
May 22 19:54:22 <ml8128> abraxa_: ok, thank you
May 22 19:55:36 <ml8128> Depending on the discount I might order a P1, and help at least with bug reports and such... I can't wait to ditch my closed source PDA
May 22 19:57:57 <don-o> is september's phone the P1.5 or is that some other designation?
May 22 19:58:10 <abraxa_> Yeah, I'll order a phase 1 device as well - even without WiFi it's perfectly usable for me
May 22 19:58:22 <abraxa_> don-o: September's phone is phase 2
May 22 19:58:49 <abraxa_> Phase 1.5 is a supposed hardware refresh but we may not be seeing that due to lack of time... we'll have to wait on that
May 22 19:59:23 <Vegar> no P1.5?
May 22 19:59:45 <don-o> ah, the wifi. it'd be nice but i'd be happy with a P1.
May 22 19:59:57 <don-o> so i can give the finger to closed source cell phones.
May 22 20:00:15 <abraxa_> I obviously can't tell since I'm not a core team member but I'm no certain phase 1.5 will make it before sept
May 22 20:00:18 <LuitvD> you can always give the finger to closed source anything
May 22 20:00:25 <don-o> LuitvD: lol
May 22 20:00:53 <don-o> seems unlikely given the small window between june and sep
May 22 20:00:58 <LuitvD> abraxa_: I do think it'll make it before september
May 22 20:01:00 <Vegar> abraxa_: so you're just guessing?
May 22 20:01:04 <abraxa_> I am
May 22 20:01:17 <don-o> thats what we do here, guess at the schedule.
May 22 20:01:19 <don-o> :)
May 22 20:01:23 <abraxa_> Exactly ;)
May 22 20:31:19 <Elrond> Hi abraxa_!
May 22 20:37:11 <webjames> what's this i hear about no phase 1.5?
May 22 20:39:17 <SpeedEvil> I don't know, what's this you hear about no phase 1.5?
May 22 20:39:47 <Elrond> webjames, SpeedEvil - Well, abraxa_ is spreading rumours.
May 22 20:40:40 <webjames> to quote " Phase 1.5 is a supposed hardware refresh but we may not be seeing that due to lack of time..."
May 22 20:41:34 <roh> webjames sometimes i really ask myself if people have no live or where such s*it originates *sigh*
May 22 20:42:25 <webjames> so there is going to be a phase 1.5, i think abraxa_ was just guessing maybe
May 22 20:42:49 <Elrond> webjames - He was hopefully missguessing.
May 22 20:43:16 <LuitvD> perfect example of how rumors start... right here... 
May 22 20:43:21 <Elrond> roh - Is there any hope for P0 people to get their gsm firmware upgraded?
May 22 20:43:22 <LuitvD> damn...
May 22 20:43:33 <roh> i do not know what all the people want with that phase crap.. that does not help anybody but just generate confusion. we have very clear product names.. better use them.
May 22 20:43:34 <Elrond> LuitvD - Right.
May 22 20:44:10 <roh> Elrond that depends... but since they paid nothing and will get fixed devices propably i see no problem
May 22 20:44:11 <mwester> When it comes to the planned schedule, there has proven to be little other then speculation, which is a close relative to "rumor"
May 22 20:44:17 <Elrond> roh - P0 Is easier to type then "GTA01Bv03" ;)
May 22 20:44:18 <webjames> i mean it doesn't make sense, assuming the phase1.5 hardware will be produced before september they could release it earlier, although maybe they wouldn't be able to mae enough units for sept launch 
May 22 20:44:37 <roh> Elrond but it confuses people massively
May 22 20:44:57 <Elrond> roh - Well, I have a P0, but will not get a P1 for free. ;o)
May 22 20:45:00 <roh> Elrond GTA01Bv03 is exact and leaves no questions which features (and bugs) a hwrev has ;)
May 22 20:45:39 <mwester> For those wondering when what will be *actually* available, "Pn" is easier and just as accurate.
May 22 20:45:54 <webjames> i just want a phone, i sold my k800i cos i thought it would be coming mid may..
May 22 20:46:11 <webjames> maybe that just shows innocence, or ignorance
May 22 20:46:32 <mwester> webjames: then I too am innocent or ignorant.
May 22 20:46:35 <roh> what is clear now and afaik also in the faq is that the definive real  price, and the featureset of GTA02 will be annouced when GTA01 goes into sale for anybody soon
May 22 20:46:39 <webjames> possibly, no probably both
May 22 20:47:19 <roh> so there will not be a presale or something, and everybody gets the clear information what to await and what to get immediatelly then
May 22 20:47:25 <webjames> mwester: glad to know i'm not the only one, there's comfort in numbers
May 22 20:47:52 <roh> presale just makes people angry if something uncalculable happens
May 22 20:47:57 <mwester> Agreed.
May 22 20:47:58 <roh> even if its explainable
May 22 20:48:27 <webjames> yes, i'm sure they are good reasons, but that doesn't allow me to make phone calls
May 22 20:48:39 <roh> webjames heh.. i still have my V3i and will not sell it... why? who wants to pay money for worn-out devices anways ;)
May 22 20:48:42 <mwester> But one has to wonder if there were the obligations associated with a presale, would there be an increased sense of urgency on the part of FIC to actually get the hardware out?
May 22 20:49:47 <webjames> thing is the launch could have the horrible reflection of the pre-sale
May 22 20:49:50 <Elrond> mwester - The already try their best.
May 22 20:50:16 <webjames> roh i have a d500, i like it
May 22 20:50:48 <Elrond> I have a ME45, and I like it too. :)
May 22 20:51:32 <webjames> Elrond: thats nice, i think if i were to get an 'old school' phone then i'd get the new nokia 1100
May 22 20:52:11 <mwester> Elrond: I guess that must be true, I have no evidence to the contrary.  But I've worked with many large companies with embedded projects, and I know what they would be doing if they had dates slip as much as this hardware has slipped...
May 22 20:52:31 <webjames> thing is these delays are much like someone stepping on your hamster, your hamster is still flat no matter if they tried there best to avoid it
May 22 20:52:44 <roh> mwester more pressure helps nothing. and we will not deliver buggy shit like others. so if it slips there IS a reason. better have a working device than something unreliablee atleast thats what the most users and we developers want
May 22 20:53:18 <webjames> actually it does
May 22 20:53:39 * mwester is laughing and at the same time somewhat disturbed by webjames' analogy...
May 22 20:53:48 <roh> if you'd ask me: releasedates are crap, contraproductive and only lower quality. <- be warned. personal opinion, not the official FIC one ;)
May 22 20:54:16 <mwester> also personal opinion: release dates and deadlines are what make humans work at their best.
May 22 20:54:28 <webjames> whilst that is true, if you said to someone do this, but take aslong as you want, how long would it take them?
May 22 20:55:28 <mwester> webjames: the answer is "forever" -- the final polish would never be done - the only thing that would determine "completion" would be when the artist or creator grew bored and went to start the next project.
May 22 20:55:49 <webjames> mwester: yeah, i do agree, however unrealistic deadlines are just as bad as no deadlines. i suppose the deadlines imposed were not realistic, or problems could not be foreseen
May 22 20:55:52 <roh> webjames no. that would mean we do not pressure ourselves.. and be shure, we are. we just do not want to promise something and then not deliver it right
May 22 20:56:43 <Elrond> roh - I really have no problems with delays.  To FIC: Please try to give us as much info as possible, as soon as possible.  It's horror to wait for something and not knowing what happens.
May 22 20:56:53 <webjames> roh, pressure is what gets things done, you'd never take a piss if there were no pressure
May 22 20:57:27 <webjames> Elrond: yeah, constant updates are the way to keep me happy
May 22 20:58:32 <roh> Elrond either people waste time on mails giving you the phone no second earlier, but just generating more pressure and thus wasting precious time, or people do real work.
May 22 20:58:35 <Elrond> Who is "donpdonp" on flickr ?
May 22 20:58:38 <roh> we choose the latter
May 22 20:59:10 <webjames> i read an email somewhere from sean, saying something like he was keep quiet as he did not want to send us more info in delays rather just send a message when it was realised
May 22 20:59:12 <roh> webjames there is already too much pressure and you guys do no help with that.
May 22 20:59:17 <Elrond> roh - Well, I know. Just a little more info would be nice sometimes.
May 22 20:59:23 <roh> there are mails from sean on differen lists from time to time.
May 22 20:59:34 <Elrond> Yep.
May 22 20:59:38 <Elrond> I like that. :-)
May 22 21:00:17 <Elrond> don-o - Are you donpdonp on flickr?
May 22 21:00:37 <webjames> it's not that we want to create pressure, if they set longer deadlines i don't think we'd mind, however is just we want to hear about delays and reasons for why the deadlines they set are delayed
May 22 21:01:27 <roh> webjames as i said.. deadlines do not help at all. were just working down issues on all fronts. there is progress.
May 22 21:01:53 <Elrond> roh - We have not set the deadlines, that was FIC themselves. ;-)
May 22 21:01:55 <webjames> thing is we don't set the deadlines
May 22 21:01:58 <roh> webjames when you want to know what sean and others tell, read the mails. there are plenty
May 22 21:01:59 <CM> roh: We see the commit logs, and that's someting for sure :)
May 22 21:02:20 <mwester> Where did the timelines come from, then?
May 22 21:02:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bluetooth_Support]] [[Press_Coverage]]
May 22 21:02:45 <CM> mwester: From all official sources we could find. Mostly mails from Sean
May 22 21:03:38 <mwester> Perhaps I've been attributing "schedule slip" when the problem is that nobody with the authority to do so has indicated a planned release date?  I just assumed that the dates in the wiki were official.
May 22 21:04:00 <bmidgley> roh: would a newer uboot help me power up bluetooth?
May 22 21:04:10 <bmidgley> It has worked about once in 20 attempts
May 22 21:04:20 <bmidgley> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Bluetooth_Support#Power_it_up
May 22 21:04:23 <webjames> mwester: i believe they are, well all from official sources
May 22 21:04:55 <roh> bmidgley uboot has nothing to do with bluetooth i think
May 22 21:05:04 <Elrond> roh - Don't get it wrong. We're quite happy, just "it sometimes could be better" :)
May 22 21:05:21 <bmidgley> roh: I wondered if usb init is done by uboot
May 22 21:06:32 <Elrond> bmidgley - uboot inits usb somewhat, but I don't think it inits the host part.
May 22 21:06:50 <Elrond> bmidgley - Where exactly is the problem? Getting usb up, or getting bt up?
May 22 21:07:39 <bmidgley> Elrond: getting bluetooth to power up and connect to usb
May 22 21:07:58 <bmidgley> lsusb just shows the host
May 22 21:08:12 <Elrond> Hmm, that worked the first time for me...
May 22 21:08:28 <Elrond> (my current kernel has usb problems... but I like it better than the normal kernels)
May 22 21:08:58 <roh> bmidgley the power for gps is also connected to the pmu, not the usb. remember.. there is no 5V in the device at all
May 22 21:09:54 <PirateHead> I wasn't around when people were asking, but the P1 phone might not be able to make phone calls initially, and almost certainly won't have a fully completed suite of other utilities. Those aren't available until the next release, tentatively in September, once developers have materialized a lot more of the essential apps.
May 22 21:10:04 <Elrond> roh - So there is not much hope for me to see an updated GSM firmware for this device?
May 22 21:10:16 <PirateHead> The last I've heard, people with their P0 phones still can't make phone calls.
May 22 21:10:44 <CM> PirateHead: I've heard of many who have called with P0
May 22 21:10:55 <CM> But there was some issues with the dialer in the beginning
May 22 21:11:02 <Elrond> CM - There are issues with the P0 gsm firmware.
May 22 21:11:22 <PirateHead> CM: I guess I'm listening in the wrong channels then. Good to hear that, since I was thinking it would really suck to recieve my P1 phone and not be able to call a friend to test it out.
May 22 21:11:27 <CM> Yes, the sidetone
May 22 21:12:13 <Elrond> PirateHead - You should not depend your live on the P1's calling ability, though.
May 22 21:12:50 <PirateHead> Elrond: any more than I depend my life on my laptop running Slackware?
May 22 21:13:14 <PirateHead> I guess Slackware is a helluva lot more mature than OpenMoko.
May 22 21:13:26 <PirateHead> Maybe I'll just port Slackware to the Neo. =P
May 22 21:16:02 <Elrond> ;o)
May 22 21:16:11 <balrog-kun> debian is even more mature and it would run unmodified on the Neo
May 22 21:16:16 <balrog-kun> no porting needed
May 22 21:16:41 <webjames> balrog-kun: no way...
May 22 21:17:27 <balrog-kun> debian has the ARM port for quite some time
May 22 21:18:27 <Elrond> I was considering to put debian packages on it, yep. ;o)
May 22 21:18:44 <webjames> has anyone tried it?
May 22 21:19:17 <Elrond> I might, if I'm too pissed by bitbake and finally want python. ;o)
May 22 21:20:02 <webjames> i'm on debian well kinda of, ubuntu
May 22 21:20:34 <abraxa_> Elrond: Hellos, too =)
May 22 21:20:50 <Elrond> abraxa_ - Hi. Please don't spread too many rumours next time. :-)
May 22 21:21:19 <abraxa_> Elrond: Wasn't my intention - thought I made it clear enough that it was my personal impression but I guess not ;3
May 22 21:22:42 <Elrond> abraxa_ - It was clear to me, but rumours work in different realitties.
May 22 21:23:26 <abraxa_> Elrond: Yeah, I'll make sure I'm more careful next time
May 22 21:23:38 <webjames> abraxa_: several people fainted before they got to the end of your message
May 22 21:23:45 <webjames> :p
May 22 21:24:14 <abraxa_> I doubt that... they must've fainted everytime the counter got pushed backwards then, too
May 22 21:27:52 <webjames> i think we should get a portable one of these built into the neo: http://uk.gizmodo.com/2007/05/21/portal_denial_system_electropl.html (play the video)
May 22 21:29:23 <balrog-kun> can i have a link to the message? :)
May 22 21:29:36 <balrog-kun> the one that people fainted over
May 22 21:31:43 <bmidgley> is there any way to reset the pmu
May 22 21:35:42 <webjames> okay, maybe this is the solution to the powered hub needed: http://uk.gizmodo.com/2007/05/17/usb_charger_powered_by_simply.html
May 22 21:38:15 <DukeOfURL> Is there a device to charge a backup battery while the primary battery is in the phone?
May 22 21:38:41 <prpplague> webjames: what are you needing a powered hub for?
May 22 21:39:03 <webjames> prpplague: maybe if i wanted to use a usb keyboard or mouse
May 22 21:40:16 <prpplague> webjames: you can use a standard GL850A or TUSB2046 with a small dc-dc step to regulate at 5v
May 22 21:41:08 <webjames> okay, the link was more of a joke than anything, but thanks for the heads up, i'll probably use a bluetooth keyboard anyway
May 22 21:42:04 <prpplague> webjames: pretty easy to mod a small off the shelf usb hub like you can get wal-mart or biglots
May 22 21:44:44 <webjames> thats good to know, i quite fancy something like this: http://gizmodo.com/gadgets/gadgets/ultraslim-credit-cardsized-bluetooth-keyboard-235252.php
May 22 21:45:50 * Elrond runs djview remotely onto the phone. ;o)
May 22 21:47:26 <prpplague> webjames: i've used these for several projects, they are easily hackable
May 22 21:47:31 <prpplague> webjames: http://www.surpluscomputers.com/store/main.aspx?p=ItemDetail&item=ACC10887
May 22 21:48:25 <webjames> that's IR right?
May 22 21:48:39 <webjames> wow, and cheap!
May 22 21:48:46 <prpplague> webjames: yea, but you can hack it up with rs-232 
May 22 21:49:08 <prpplague> webjames: or add a small rs-232 to usb adapter inside
May 22 21:49:10 <Elrond> pavelm - Hi! :-)
May 22 21:49:40 <webjames> prpplague: yeah, looks good, and cheap enough to have a 'play around'
May 22 21:55:35 <Bish> :/
May 22 21:56:10 <pavelm> Hi, Elrond... and hi everyone.
May 22 21:56:21 <webjames> heya
May 22 21:56:44 <pavelm> ...did anyone find reliable way to get gllin to work?
May 22 21:57:02 <pavelm> gllin cold starts producing nmea, but it is not reliable. is gllin -low 1 needed before that?
May 22 22:07:09 <LuitvD> mornin' whitby :P
May 22 22:23:02 <pavelm_away> Elrond: so... did your poor 300MHz machine finished compiling something nice?
May 22 22:25:52 <Elrond> pavelm_away - Not yet. I checked kernel bugs, and other bugs today. ;o)
May 22 22:25:59 <Elrond> pavelm_away - And updated u-boot. :)
May 22 22:29:28 <pavelm_away> elrond: And you still have openmoko, not a brick? Good :-).
May 22 22:35:53 <pavelm_away> hmm... gllin cold & (wait) cat /tmp/nmeaNP looks like good sequence?
May 22 22:35:55 <Elrond> pavelm_away - Yep. :-)  I updated the wiki accordingly. :)
May 22 22:36:24 <Elrond> pavelm_away - I did not get to gps yet.
May 22 22:37:41 <torrado> hi, I 'm new in openmoko, and i set up the qemu + openmoko with sucess (slow but with sucess) but in boot process, show : could not load /lib/modules/2.6.21.1-moko10/modules.dep
May 22 22:38:00 <torrado> what is wrong ? 
May 22 22:38:47 <Philippe> torrado: basically that means that the modules.dep file has not been generated/installed.
May 22 22:39:12 <Philippe> nothing to worry much about. 
May 22 22:39:24 <pjz> anyone else getting a fatal error on virtmodem.o ?
May 22 22:39:29 <torrado> i used the steps in the wiki, with OpenMoko_under_QEMU
May 22 22:39:51 <torrado> openmoko/download.sh and after openmoko/flash.sh
May 22 22:40:02 <torrado> and no erros show-me.
May 22 22:40:04 <torrado> :(
May 22 22:40:14 <Philippe> torrado: it is probably fine as OE might skip adding that file as it is not really needed
May 22 22:40:55 <torrado> OE ?
May 22 22:41:00 <Elrond> torrado - You used a prebuild rootfs?
May 22 22:41:12 <Philippe> torrado: it is only used by modprobe to get the right modules AFAIK.
May 22 22:41:28 <torrado> Erlond i used the script download.sh and flash.sh
May 22 22:41:38 <Philippe> torrado: http://www.die.net/doc/linux/man/man5/modules.dep.5.html
May 22 22:42:31 <Philippe> torrado: OE is shorthand for OpenEmbedded
May 22 22:42:35 <torrado> this is possible my sistem not work correctly ?
May 22 22:43:08 <torrado> Erlond, then the problem is with rootfs ? another rootfs image resolve the problem ?
May 22 22:43:11 <Philippe> torrado: as I said it is probably not included due to not being needed. No need to worry about your system :-)
May 22 22:44:13 <torrado> Philippe, but i would like see everything fine :) no modules loaded, lsmod = nothing.
May 22 22:44:15 <torrado> ;(
May 22 22:44:20 <torrado> (sorry for my english)
May 22 22:45:58 <Philippe> torrado: seems normal. I guess they compile everything that is needed into the kernel
May 22 22:46:46 <torrado> Philippe, ok, thanks, more two questions :) how i setup the usb connections with qemu ?
May 22 22:47:09 <Philippe> torrado: hmm... well I have no idea there. Never tried
May 22 22:47:13 <torrado> i alread do modprobe usbnet
May 22 22:47:27 <torrado> and no interface usb0 apper
May 22 22:47:49 <torrado> Philippe, the virtual keyborad its show where ? i do not see in qemu :(
May 22 22:48:00 <Philippe> torrado: I wonder if Qemu even manages to emulate that usb stuff...
May 22 22:48:17 <Philippe> torrado: the VKB (virtual keyboard in short) is just next to the menu
May 22 22:48:34 <Philippe> it shows up as a white block on my neo
May 22 22:48:46 * LuitvD is finally trying to build moko too :P
May 22 22:48:57 * LuitvD sets up the mokomakefile environment
May 22 22:49:04 <torrado> Philippe, its down show-me everything in next to menu.
May 22 22:50:34 <Philippe> torrado: let me check. Last time Qemu failed for me.
May 22 22:52:02 <Philippe> grr... doesn't build for me atm so I cannot check.
May 22 22:52:25 <Philippe> Anyway it should be in the top window just right of the orange openmoko logo which opens the menu
May 22 22:53:02 * Elrond played the nice downgrade game ;o)
May 22 22:53:04 <balrog-kun> torrado: see the wiki page regarding usb networking
May 22 22:53:31 <torrado> balrog-kun, this -> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/USB_Networking ??
May 22 22:53:57 <balrog-kun> torrado: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU#Setting_up_USB_connection <- this
May 22 22:54:10 <balrog-kun> it's the same procedure on the target side
May 22 22:54:35 <torrado> balrog-kun, thanks
May 22 23:02:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Press_Coverage]] [[Main_Page/zh_cn]] [[User_talk:Kencnidpf2ts4ufn35tpl2rn]] [[Bluetooth_Support]]
May 22 23:04:03 <pavelm_away> pjr: Are you here?
May 22 23:04:33 <pavelm_away> pjz: Are you here?
May 22 23:07:45 <Elrond> pavelm_away - You still there?
May 22 23:08:04 <pavelm_away> elrond: Actually, i'm back but hacking on something else.
May 22 23:08:23 <pavelm_away> ...I just wondered if pjz's problem was the same thing that prevents my phase0 from booting as soon as I install modules.
May 22 23:08:25 <Elrond> pavelm_away - Can you go to http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=576 and just post, that you have the same experience? :-)
May 22 23:09:38 <torrado> balrog-kun, Philippe thanks for yours helps
May 22 23:09:38 <pavelm_away> Elrond: aha, but that's a different bug.
May 22 23:09:50 <torrado> balrog-kun, Philippe i will play with it :-D
May 22 23:10:20 <Philippe> torrado: good luck!
May 22 23:10:41 <Elrond> pavelm_away - But it's a bug, you could reproduce yesterday, couldn't you?
May 22 23:10:53 <torrado> Philippe, alread stay to buy to the mass  ? 
May 22 23:13:35 <pavelm_away> elrond: Yes, and I've added "me too" :-)
May 22 23:14:08 <Elrond> pavelm_away - Great. :-))
May 22 23:15:17 <pavelm_away> elrond: OTOH I guess we should start maintiaining Bv3 kernel. laforge have enough work with phase1+...
May 22 23:17:53 <Elrond> pavelm_away - I'm really far away from kernel stuff. ;)
May 22 23:18:01 <Elrond> pavelm_away - But maybe you're right. :)
May 22 23:26:32 <LuitvD> bye all :)
May 22 23:27:26 * LuitvD will get a free WiFi sniffer tomorrow :)
May 22 23:28:01 <roh> balrog-kun hmm... shouln't we enable alsa on qemu ?
May 22 23:28:19 <roh> oss is kinda outdated nowadays
May 22 23:28:28 <balrog-kun> roh: what do you mean?
May 22 23:28:32 <balrog-kun> roh: either can be used
May 22 23:32:24 <roh> yes... but it somehow does not enable it here, even if the libs and headers are there
May 22 23:32:46 <balrog-kun> you need to explicitely tell ./configure that you want audio
May 22 23:33:17 <roh> heh.. yeah... i thought we build it with bb... my fault..
May 22 23:33:54 <balrog-kun> oh, maybe there is a bb recipe for it somewhere
May 22 23:34:03 * balrog-kun stays away from bb
May 22 23:35:13 <roh> no.. it only is build directly by make and configured by the mokomakefile
May 22 23:36:56 <balrog-kun> well, there may still be a bb recipe somewhere
May 22 23:37:07 * balrog-kun stays away from MokoMakefile too :)
May 22 23:38:33 <pjz> pavelm_away: I'm here
May 22 23:40:32 <roh> balrog-kun works great for me.. and a lot of other people too. i just asked myself where this config happens
May 22 23:43:19 <pavelm_away> pjz: Are you still here?
May 22 23:43:23 <pjz> yes
May 22 23:43:34 <pjz> looks like the problem I'm having is building qemu
May 22 23:43:36 <pavelm_away> pjz: you had some problem that prevented booting -- iirc?
May 22 23:43:38 <pjz> not with the moko stuff
May 22 23:43:52 <pavelm_away> pjz: Ok, I misunderstood that. 
May 22 23:44:02 <pavelm_away> pjz: I have problems running openmoko on phase0 hw.
May 22 23:44:15 <pjz> pavelm_away: oh, ick
May 22 23:44:28 <pjz> pavelm_away: well, I wish I could say the same :) ...no hardware here...
May 22 23:44:31 <pjz> counter
May 22 23:44:31 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 65%) P1: 4 days 18:07:43 (4.755 +-4.8 days) (1250;212)
May 22 23:44:41 <pavelm_away> pjz: Hopefully easy to solve :-).Good night
May 22 23:44:55 <pavelm_away> pjz: You would not want _phase 0_ hw. Battery life seriously sucks.
May 22 23:44:55 <pjz> hopefully! good night, sorry I wasn't more help
May 22 23:46:13 <Agrajag-> ah.. i was about to ask pavelm_away if he was sure he has the assisted part of AGPS working. he says that the gps isn't going to work indoors :(
May 22 23:46:28 <Agrajag-> i was under the impression it probably would. oh well
May 22 23:46:47 <Elrond> Good night people.
May 22 23:47:09 <SpeedEvil> Agrajag-: What may be possible in the hardware, and what's implemented in the chip are different things.
May 22 23:47:31 <SpeedEvil> And the shipped bit doesn't support AGPS
May 22 23:47:48 <SpeedEvil> And AIUI, pavel's hardware doesn't have working GPS
May 22 23:48:12 <Agrajag-> oh - i'd just read his blog - http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/39043.html
May 22 23:49:18 <SpeedEvil> Oh - right, diddn't know he'd got P1
May 23 00:26:24 <Mukunda> I know this isn't really the right place to ask, but does anyone here know much about iPaqs?
May 23 00:34:48 <balrog-kun> how much?
May 23 00:37:37 <Mukunda> No problem, I've got some help.
May 23 01:02:36 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[IPhone]] [[Bluetooth_Support]]
May 23 01:47:31 <pjz> WTF is MokoMakefile doing!?
May 23 01:47:55 <pjz> it seems to be looping going lots of builds
May 23 01:52:38 <rwhitby> pjz: worked for me less than 4 hours ago ...
May 23 01:52:49 <rwhitby> can you pastebin what you are seeing?
May 23 02:44:17 <pjz> rwhitby: it seems to have fixed itself by me restarting the build
May 23 02:45:15 <LetoTo> by build died uncompressing OE.mtn, with a "file already exists". I removed it, but now i get other "already exist errors"
May 23 02:45:27 <LetoTo> do i really need to rm -r everything for MokoMakefile?
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed May 23 02:59:57 2007