**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Mon May 28 02:59:56 2007
May 28 04:32:19 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Introduction/es]]
May 28 06:41:50 <Hopscotch> good morning
May 28 07:05:12 <Rakshasa> Morning
May 28 07:16:42 <Rakshasa> Darn. If the p1+ has a gpu, I've gotta wait for it too. =( After all I am a graphics and game programmer at heart.
May 28 07:28:44 <antenagora> counter
May 28 07:28:45 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: 2 days 02:15:36 (2.094 +-2.1 days) (1301;215)
May 28 08:23:51 <PBeck> hi :D
May 28 08:31:57 <LuitvD> hi
May 28 08:32:00 <LuitvD> counter
May 28 08:32:00 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: 2 days 01:43:58 (2.072 +-2.1 days) (1302;215)
May 28 08:32:21 <LuitvD> meh, 8 hours ago it was 2 days and 6 hours
May 28 08:36:47 <CM> And FIC is as quiet as always.. :(
May 28 08:42:49 <LuitvD> CM: alals
May 28 08:42:52 <LuitvD> -l
May 28 08:43:21 <LuitvD> CM: though Sean is pretty helpful on the mailing lists lately
May 28 08:43:44 <CM> Yes, I've nocticed the increase in mails from him :)
May 28 08:43:57 <CM> Just hope to hear something about the production run..
May 28 08:44:50 <ozamosi> Well.. If he has time to write emails, he probably doesn't have anything really nasty to fix at the moment.
May 28 08:49:16 <CM> He always seem to say that he wants to wait with any real anouncement until he has something finished or complete. At least that's what the last announce mail said..
May 28 08:52:45 <LuitvD> yeah
May 28 08:53:19 <LuitvD> he told us he wanted to keep his (public) mouth shut, to avoid having to talk about delays
May 28 08:53:58 <LuitvD> well, now there's still a delay, but this time he doesn't talk about it :P
May 28 08:54:24 <CM> Hehe.. I think that's worse than just saying what's going on
May 28 08:54:40 <LuitvD> aloril's counter actually is quite optimistic... in my opinion
May 28 08:54:59 <CM> It's always been optimistic ;)
May 28 08:55:07 <LuitvD> true 
May 28 08:55:43 * aloril guesses chance for this month is now less than 50%
May 28 08:57:40 <Rakshasa> It's about time to add another two weeks.
May 28 08:58:13 <aloril> well.. it has different counters to eternity, only first one is shown though ;-)
May 28 08:58:21 <ewon> we should probably change the topic to "it'll be ready when it's ready, you god-damned hippies!", or something to that effect
May 28 08:58:32 <aloril> (here that is, others are at webpage and not really as counters)
May 28 08:59:02 <Rakshasa> No-one reads the topic anyway, so what's the use?
May 28 08:59:39 <Rakshasa> They'll all just ask wether it's ready, or where they con order one.
May 28 08:59:55 <Rakshasa> s/con/can/
May 28 08:59:55 <apt> Rakshasa meant: They'll all just ask wether it's ready, or where they can order one.
May 28 09:00:36 <ewon> it that automagic?
May 28 09:00:40 <ewon> foobar
May 28 09:00:42 <ewon> s/bar/foo/
May 28 09:00:44 <apt> ewon meant: foofoo
May 28 09:00:47 <ewon> nice
May 28 09:00:57 <CM> apt: botsnack :)
May 28 09:00:57 <apt> :), CM
May 28 09:01:05 <ewon> is apt a blootbot?
May 28 09:01:15 <CM> apt: What are you?
May 28 09:01:28 <apt> I am a blootbot. For more info see <blootbot>
May 28 09:01:31 <ewon> bingo
May 28 09:05:16 <LuitvD> :P
May 28 09:06:39 <LuitvD> ewon: you could have seen that in his /whois
May 28 09:08:06 <aloril> still optimistic, but.. in theory it could happen quite fast I think:
May 28 09:08:08 <aloril> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%)
May 28 09:08:08 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) 
May 28 09:08:53 <LuitvD> aloril: it's getting less likely? why?
May 28 09:09:04 <LuitvD> why that 5% less now?
May 28 09:09:09 <aloril> well.. no news -> maybe problems?
May 28 09:09:38 <aloril> been reducing by 5% everytime I have reduced ;-)
May 28 09:09:54 <aloril> though I guess will reduce faster in next 4 days
May 28 09:09:55 <LuitvD> heheh
May 28 09:10:28 <buz> i think its somewhat to be all gung hoo about being open and htings and then just shut up about the delays
May 28 09:11:11 <aloril> if they produce it today and then takes day or few for quality test: ordering could still be in May ;-)
May 28 09:11:46 <LuitvD> buz: well, knowing WHY there is a delay won't make us shut up, but will comfort us a bit, yes
May 28 09:11:57 <LuitvD> buz: I prefer openness too...
May 28 09:12:36 <buz> and creating patches for new devices without telling people what it is creates rumors
May 28 09:12:45 <buz> some might say rumors are good, but i doubt it
May 28 09:13:05 <LuitvD> aloril: why would you need 'a few' days for quality test? you can do a 100% test on 50 devices in a day...
May 28 09:13:14 <LuitvD> (with the right equipment)
May 28 09:13:38 <LuitvD> buz: nah, this HXD8 think is quite nicely done... acutally
May 28 09:13:39 <aloril> LuitvD: umm.. if they have 2000 devices, then that is a bit slow ;-)
May 28 09:13:47 <LuitvD> s/acutally/actually/
May 28 09:13:48 <apt> LuitvD meant: buz: nah, this HXD8 think is quite nicely done... actually
May 28 09:14:06 <CM> I also wonder what't to secret about how the first production run is going, and if it's even started at all
May 28 09:14:28 <LuitvD> aloril: yes, but with a production line that has continuous quality/yield, you don't have to test 100% on every single device
May 28 09:15:07 <LuitvD> aloril: you can do LCD, NAND, RAM test on everything and 100% test on 1 in 200 devices, for example
May 28 09:15:14 <aloril> maybe good assumption is that is has not started or it going today, ie.. wonder if we could assume there would be some news after successful  run
May 28 09:15:33 <aloril> LuitvD: OK
May 28 09:16:07 <CM> aloril: Probably. Maybe they're wating to be able to say that they've actually produced some phones
May 28 09:16:17 <LuitvD> seen quite some nice things last wednesday, on the Electronics and Automation exposition :P
May 28 09:16:49 <LuitvD> quite an amount of machines that would be great for quality control in production runs
May 28 09:17:09 * LuitvD mumbles something about a 'flying probe' :)
May 28 09:17:28 <buz> fic probably has those you know
May 28 09:17:34 <buz> testing mainboards by hand would kinda suck
May 28 09:18:47 <LuitvD> buz: ever seen a flying probe?
May 28 09:18:48 <LuitvD>  :P
May 28 09:18:51 <ewon> I remember seeing a tv show about mobo manufacturing
May 28 09:18:58 <ewon> interesting method of soldering stuff to the boards
May 28 09:19:11 <LuitvD> ewon: which of the 20 methods? :P
May 28 09:19:12 <ewon> they literally have a standing wave of solder that they slosh the undersides of the board with
May 28 09:19:13 <buz> LuitvD: i have different concepts of that in my head
May 28 09:19:19 <buz> wave soldering then
May 28 09:19:26 <ewon> impressive stuff
May 28 09:19:29 <LuitvD> ewon: oh yeah, seen those machines last week too
May 28 09:19:38 <LuitvD> ewon: there are nicer machines in production lines
May 28 09:19:41 <ewon> my instinct would tell me it would make a gigantic mess, but it actually works
May 28 09:19:55 <LuitvD> buz: http://youtube.com/watch?v=-_c1zd-LGdQ
May 28 09:20:08 <LuitvD> those machines probe 100+ connections per second
May 28 09:20:13 * ewon is a software decv, not an electronics eng :)
May 28 09:20:14 <buz> yeah seen those on tv
May 28 09:20:39 * LuitvD wants to become an electronics engineer :) 
May 28 09:20:44 <LuitvD> (prototyper)
May 28 09:21:04 <ewon> s/decv/dev/
May 28 09:21:06 <LuitvD> buz: I'm telling you, in real life, those things are even more amazing :P
May 28 09:21:32 <buz> thats a comparably small one i think
May 28 09:21:46 * ewon sighs, starts making all the lovely code he wrote on his linux laptop over the weekend work in visual studio
May 28 09:22:09 * ewon wonders if his boss would notice if he just used cygwin
May 28 09:22:22 <LuitvD> hehehe
May 28 09:22:57 <buz> ewon: google for lina ;9
May 28 09:23:03 * ewon googles
May 28 09:23:13 <buz> maybe lina vm or something like that
May 28 09:23:32 <buz> http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS6279947776.html
May 28 09:23:33 <ewon> found it
May 28 09:23:36 <ewon> christ on a bike
May 28 09:23:50 <buz> not entirely sure htf this is supposed to look native though
May 28 09:24:05 * ewon bookmarks
May 28 09:24:13 <LuitvD> lina is great :P
May 28 09:24:18 <buz> then again
May 28 09:24:23 <buz> simply using qt might be easier
May 28 09:24:56 <ewon> hah, qt
May 28 09:25:15 <ewon> "use us, but your first born child belongs to us if you even think about selling anything"
May 28 09:25:31 <buz> i dont think its that expensive really
May 28 09:25:48 <buz> if you really want to do cross platform stuff, its dirt cheap
May 28 09:26:09 <buz> and unlike swing, it actually works
May 28 09:27:29 <ewon> we looked at using QT in my last job
May 28 09:27:35 <ewon> we ended up doing the GUI in Java
May 28 09:27:38 <ewon> oh, the pain
May 28 09:27:40 * ewon weeps softly
May 28 09:28:15 <buz> i had to do a gui in java once
May 28 09:28:28 <buz> painful is very much understating it
May 28 09:28:39 <ewon> a bastard marriage twixt c, c++, inline asm (oh yes), and some java for the gui, written by someone who has never done java before. absolutely positioned GUI objects! yes!
May 28 09:28:52 <CM> Hehe
May 28 09:29:21 <ewon> "but it looks ok on my workstation"
May 28 09:30:07 <ewon> "yes, but the indians on 800x600 can't even see the OK and Cancel buttons"
May 28 09:30:09 <ewon> "oh"
May 28 09:30:16 <ewon> "can we get them to increase their resolution?"
May 28 09:31:22 <LuitvD> lol
May 28 09:31:33 <guaqua> "the right way (tm)"
May 28 09:31:44 <buz> well using 800x600 should be illegal
May 28 09:32:04 <guaqua> yeah, we gotta skip 800x600 on the next neo
May 28 09:32:05 <buz> especially for the "but otherwise the fonts are too small" reason
May 28 09:32:11 <guaqua> cos it should be illegal
May 28 09:32:17 <buz> on a desktop
May 28 09:32:18 * LuitvD remembers the joke: "Java is like buttsex, the fact that it works on all genders doesn't mean it's good."
May 28 09:32:22 <ewon> lol
May 28 09:32:43 <ewon> that quote would probably have got me sent to "sensitivity training" in my last job
May 28 09:32:47 <guaqua> buz: here we get to the fact that there is no default platform anymore
May 28 09:32:48 <buz> some would say that's actually promoting java
May 28 09:32:55 * Ganneff wants a phone with a 1600x1200 display! :)
May 28 09:33:10 <buz> there's actually a 7" lcd with 1920x1080 from samsung
May 28 09:33:19 * ewon wants a phone where he can write apps without having to deal with the unspeakable horror that is j2me
May 28 09:33:25 <Ganneff> nono, not 7", thats too small :)
May 28 09:33:27 <LuitvD> buz: waah, how many DPI is that?
May 28 09:33:39 <kiney> counter
May 28 09:33:39 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 2 days 01:13:09 (2.051 +-2.1 days) (1303;215)
May 28 09:33:44 <buz> dunno
May 28 09:33:52 <buz> i think its main use is for lcd projectors
May 28 09:33:56 <buz> to do 1080p
May 28 09:33:57 <Rakshasa> Ganneff: a phone with a projector and a backbag for the whitescreen?
May 28 09:34:13 <LuitvD> ewon: it's stupid that motorola makes linux phones and forces software devs to make programs using j2me :P
May 28 09:34:30 <buz> moto is stupid. fullstop
May 28 09:34:42 <LuitvD> their hardware is superb
May 28 09:34:45 <ewon> LuitvD: my primary reason for wanting a moko is so I can just write apps in common or garden C, as God intended
May 28 09:35:25 <LuitvD> ewon: yeah, that's why I want moko on a moto :P
May 28 09:35:32 <ewon> heh :)
May 28 09:35:42 <LuitvD> C programming, and a very nice device
May 28 09:35:47 <ewon> I like my Nokia 6230i, but I can't bring myself to write for j2me
May 28 09:36:05 <LuitvD> ewon: then just don't :P it's better this way
May 28 09:36:05 <buz> no wlan on moto
May 28 09:36:10 <ewon> i tried once, and it took me a whole day just to get the dev environment operational
May 28 09:36:12 <LuitvD> buz: so what? :P
May 28 09:36:25 <buz> 6230i has a totally broken j2me implementation anyway
May 28 09:36:29 <LuitvD> ewon: and the day after to catch breath?
May 28 09:36:58 <LuitvD> :P
May 28 09:37:22 <ewon> the day after to rm -rf the entire thing and go back to enjoying unemployment
May 28 09:37:23 <hrw> morning
May 28 09:37:28 <LuitvD> I actually do wonder what Java FX is like... but somehow I don't think I'll ever try
May 28 09:37:43 <ewon> we had a graphics module back in college.. taught in Java3D
May 28 09:37:45 <ewon> madness
May 28 09:37:59 <LuitvD> madness?
May 28 09:38:06 <LuitvD> this is JAVA :P
May 28 09:38:10 <ewon> what freaking use is java3D?
May 28 09:38:16 <ewon> I had to go and learn openGL on my own
May 28 09:38:20 <LuitvD> heheh
May 28 09:38:25 <LuitvD> as if that's hard...
May 28 09:38:32 <LuitvD> GL is 'normal' ...
May 28 09:38:46 <ewon> the lecturer's reasoning for teaching java3D was that some of the year would find it easier than coding in C
May 28 09:38:59 <ewon> imho, such mouth-breathing retards don't deserve to pass
May 28 09:39:26 <ewon> "hands up who prefers Java to C"
May 28 09:39:29 <ewon> "get out"
May 28 09:39:34 <LuitvD> XD
May 28 09:39:45 * ewon should back and be a lecturer
May 28 09:40:02 <mmp> ewon: don't be that radical; every language has its pros, even java...
May 28 09:40:15 * LuitvD is glad his (future) college will teach C for ARM, not Java for ARM
May 28 09:40:22 <mmp> although /me can't remember any right now:)
May 28 09:40:34 <ewon> mmp: yes, but people who cannot grasp the concept of a pointer don't deserve a comp sci degree
May 28 09:41:04 <mmp> ewon: just classic "javistic" argument - pointers tend to be source of hard-to-find errors... .
May 28 09:41:21 <ewon> they're also one of C's main strong-points
May 28 09:41:39 <ewon> and they're only hard-to-find without a decent memory debugger
May 28 09:41:52 <LuitvD> damn, I'm glad I'm only 17 :P
May 28 09:41:56 <mmp> yes. It depends whether you put the sword to the hands of Jack the Ripper or king Arthur :)
May 28 09:42:16 <LuitvD> lol
May 28 09:42:19 <ewon> granted, badly written C is a true horror to behold, but well-written C is... at one with the universe
May 28 09:42:45 <LuitvD> ewon: baldy written anything is horror to dig into
May 28 09:42:47 <buz> with 95% of the coders out there, i rather have them write java than c
May 28 09:42:48 <buz> much rather
May 28 09:42:57 <ewon> buz: this is sadly true
May 28 09:43:17 <LuitvD> maybe lina can change that...
May 28 09:43:20 <ewon> I tend to write better C than I do Java, as with Java I don't have to be careful
May 28 09:43:34 <ewon> I just write any old tat, and let the java interpreter wipe my arse for me
May 28 09:43:59 <LuitvD> damn, I'm glad I never learned java yet :)
May 28 09:44:35 <Rakshasa> I'm glad I've allready almost forgotten all the java I've ever learned.
May 28 09:44:45 * mmp codes in the java right niw
May 28 09:44:47 <mmp> now
May 28 09:44:48 * SpeedEvil throws an exception at Rakshasa.
May 28 09:44:50 <CM> Garbage collection rocks.
May 28 09:45:20 <CM> Makes you lazy, I know, but it's quick and easy
May 28 09:46:52 <ewon> mmp: go stand in the corner
May 28 09:47:11 <buz> i actually like java syntax
May 28 09:47:13 * mmp runs crying out of the room
May 28 09:47:13 <Rakshasa> catch (IrcException ie) { cerr << "ie has bugs. Don't throw it"; }
May 28 09:47:14 <mmp> :)
May 28 09:47:20 <buz> its just sun's apis that are braindead
May 28 09:47:40 <CM> ewon: Well, I'm actually writing some VBA now so I should just leave the whole planet :P
May 28 09:48:02 <buz> vba is possible the worst language i ever came across
May 28 09:48:09 <buz> causes physical pain
May 28 09:48:09 <mmp> ewon: not mentioning that my early programs were written in ATARI BASIC :)
May 28 09:48:41 <CM> buz: It's second to APL and slightly worse than VHDL I think ;)
May 28 09:49:15 <Rakshasa> And first time I ever wrote code for commondore 64 was 2004. =P
May 28 09:51:23 <ewon> I remember we had work placement back in the middle of the degree
May 28 09:51:33 <ewon> I was put in this publishing house
May 28 09:51:41 <ewon> that processed XML in VBA
May 28 09:51:54 <LuitvD> eek
May 28 09:52:18 <ewon> I rewrote this 1000line VBA monstrosity in around 50 lines of perl
May 28 09:58:03 <buz> iiik perl
May 28 09:58:21 <ewon> it beats freakin VBA
May 28 09:58:30 <ewon> and well-commented, it's quite maintainable
May 28 09:58:32 <buz> yeah
May 28 10:00:10 <Rakshasa> ewon: But you've got to be a bit masochist to actually code perl. I've done a few scripts... I've also hit my fist to trees until they bleed a few times...
May 28 10:00:31 <buz> perls syntax is about as bad as it gets
May 28 10:00:53 <buz> htf thought it was a good idea to have variables like ä_
May 28 10:00:56 <buz> uhm $_
May 28 10:00:56 <ewon> I like perl...
May 28 10:01:20 <ewon> I use it for random stuff that needs to be written quick and doesn't require lightning execution speed
May 28 10:01:46 <ewon> ooperl is worse than paedophiles though
May 28 10:02:42 <buz> 1gb of ram for 30eur or 2gb for 90eur
May 28 10:02:44 <buz> mhh
May 28 10:02:53 <buz> what kind of pricing is that, anyway
May 28 10:07:05 <Rakshasa> buz: It's for getting rich by selling memory to the random idiot with a media pc which has one memory slot and vista pre-installed. All the others can get by with 1gbs...
May 28 10:07:23 <ewon> hahaaa, vista
May 28 10:07:24 <buz> actually, i need 2GB in my machine, at least
May 28 10:07:33 <ewon> yeah, but you have >1 slot I presume
May 28 10:07:37 <buz> i'm often running two vm on my thinkpad
May 28 10:07:41 <buz> 1G of ram just doesnt cut it
May 28 10:09:36 <rd_> counter
May 28 10:09:37 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 2 days 00:55:10 (2.038 +-2.0 days) (1304;216)
May 28 10:28:48 <MetaBookfoziS> p1+ is the last version of neo1973 uh? SO is there hw changing between p2 and p1+(070630)?
May 28 10:29:26 <hrw> MetaBookfoziS: phase0 devs got gta01bv3 in phase0, then in phase1 they got gta01bv4
May 28 10:29:37 <hrw> so called p1+/p2 device is gta02
May 28 10:30:04 <hrw> how much changes will be before p1+ and p2? I think that mostly small fixes
May 28 10:30:32 <MetaBookfoziS> i just asking because if i order that after p1+ came out, what happens if after that the hw changed?
May 28 10:30:37 <MetaBookfoziS> i need to buy again?
May 28 10:31:45 <hrw> no idea
May 28 10:31:51 <MetaBookfoziS> :/
May 28 10:33:19 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Tia1982]] [[Translation]] [[Neo1973]]
May 28 10:43:52 <MetaBookfoziS> anybody?
May 28 10:44:42 <aloril> MetaBookfoziS: I think we will know more once P1 becomes available for ordering
May 28 10:45:23 * aloril would be surprised if there were more than minor/bug fix changes between P1+ and P2 (both gta02 I think)
May 28 10:47:05 <Elrond> I thought, GTA02 would be the next year thingy?
May 28 10:47:23 <Elrond> I would have guessed for GTA01BWv01 for thw wifi version?
May 28 11:08:29 <kiney> counter
May 28 11:08:29 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 2 days 00:25:44 (2.018 +-2.0 days) (1305;216)
May 28 11:33:43 <PBeck> re
May 28 11:45:28 <Elrond> Hi PBeck 
May 28 12:08:28 <jackey> hey guys
May 28 12:08:40 <LuitvD> hello
May 28 12:08:45 <jackey> finally, I got a Neo1973
May 28 12:09:13 <CM> Lucky you :)
May 28 12:09:17 <jackey> Hello LuitvD
May 28 12:09:22 <jackey> thx
May 28 12:09:38 <jackey> it has wifi, bluetooth and GSM
May 28 12:09:45 <buz> wtf?
May 28 12:09:51 <CoreDump|home> !slap jackey 
May 28 12:09:56 <CM> Hehe
May 28 12:10:10 <SpeedEvil> wifi?
May 28 12:10:11 <aloril> P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F  (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers)
May 28 12:10:20 <LuitvD> jackey: how did you get wifi?
May 28 12:10:20 <buz> lol
May 28 12:10:23 <LuitvD> usb?
May 28 12:10:36 <SpeedEvil> I've got a neo, and it's got wifi, bluetooth, GSM, FPGA, and a pony!
May 28 12:10:47 <jackey> i was told by my engineer, it has a wifi
May 28 12:10:58 <jackey> did not check the detail, may be not.
May 28 12:11:03 <SpeedEvil> Doubtfull. 
May 28 12:11:06 <CM> lspci? :)
May 28 12:11:44 <jackey> yes, usb
May 28 12:11:50 <SpeedEvil> Or if so, you're the first person to report such, and the prevailing opinion is that it's going to be months.
May 28 12:12:07 <jackey> quite
May 28 12:12:10 <buz> maybe thats is a prototype GTA02?
May 28 12:12:18 <SpeedEvil> The thing connected via USB is the bluetooth module.
May 28 12:12:27 <jackey> i just received it couple days ago
May 28 12:12:31 <SpeedEvil> The thing connected via a grey wire is a GPS antenna.
May 28 12:12:58 <SpeedEvil> If this is the same version that everyone else has.
May 28 12:13:08 <jackey> maybe i should take some pictures
May 28 12:13:23 <buz> look for a chip that says atheros on it
May 28 12:13:38 <CM> Or just at the sticker in the back
May 28 12:13:41 <jackey> there is a little spot for antenna on the side of the phone
May 28 12:13:47 <buz> yeah thats for gsm
May 28 12:14:23 <jackey> I am here to ask questions
May 28 12:14:36 <LuitvD> well ask them then XD
May 28 12:14:45 <jackey> I only have a USB power charger and the Neo
May 28 12:14:57 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973 may be of use jackey.
May 28 12:16:51 <Bish> woohoo the gpu news are great !
May 28 12:16:54 <hrw> jackey: boot it and look into /proc/cpuinfo
May 28 12:17:02 <PBeck> bollywood auf rtl2 :D
May 28 12:17:11 <PBeck> upps wrong channel ;)
May 28 12:17:24 <Bish> :P bollywood & rtl2 suck
May 28 12:17:35 <CoreDump|home> tv in general sucks
May 28 12:17:37 <hrw> german lang suxx
May 28 12:17:45 <Bish> xD
May 28 12:17:52 <buz> dubbed tv sucks especially bad
May 28 12:17:52 <hrw> or rather germanlangsuxx
May 28 12:17:54 <PBeck> hrw: hrhr ;) that says a german, right? :P
May 28 12:17:56 <CoreDump|home> Bish: what GPU news?
May 28 12:18:08 <hrw> PBeck: nein
May 28 12:18:12 <buz> http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/post/jan/2007-05-27/next-neo1973-revision-may-use-smedia-glamo3362-gpu
May 28 12:18:14 <PBeck> rofl
May 28 12:18:16 <buz> those
May 28 12:18:17 <CoreDump|home> no, the german says polish sucks =)
May 28 12:18:19 <SpeedEvil> I'm not in favour of a GPU, unless it uses no power.
May 28 12:18:37 <Bish> öhm: May use the SMedia Glamo3362 GPU [15]
May 28 12:18:52 <Bish> im half polish , but im unable to speak it
May 28 12:19:01 <PBeck> all sucks expecting german :>
May 28 12:19:18 <SpeedEvil> Especially if it costs money.
May 28 12:19:34 <Bish> :/ i will pay anything for openmoko xD
May 28 12:19:36 <hrw> I wondered when someone will notice smedia
May 28 12:19:47 <SpeedEvil> I'm one sixteenth french. Can't speak it though.
May 28 12:20:02 <Bish> sixteenth xD
May 28 12:20:15 <PBeck> i cant speak german and english ;)
May 28 12:20:25 <jackey> hey, any one has a black NEO, mine is black
May 28 12:20:26 <Bish> cant? -_--
May 28 12:20:28 <PBeck> and write is the same ;)
May 28 12:20:31 <CoreDump|home> buz: thanks
May 28 12:20:38 * buz has had 6 years of french
May 28 12:20:41 <PBeck> Bish: right ;)
May 28 12:20:43 <buz> still cant say i know any  ;)
May 28 12:20:54 <jackey> it looks much better than http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
May 28 12:20:58 <CoreDump|home> jackey: most pre-p1 neos appear to be black (thank $deity!)
May 28 12:21:14 <buz> better like what
May 28 12:21:32 <jackey> haha, i am a newbie
May 28 12:21:37 <PBeck> hm give it news to the mass production?
May 28 12:22:32 <Bish> < hrw> I wondered when someone will notice smedia <- why?
May 28 12:22:35 <SpeedEvil> There is to be no mass production. It's all assembled by magic elves, in their cottages.
May 28 12:22:42 <Bish> lol !
May 28 12:22:48 <SpeedEvil> The delay is in shipping the parts to Narnia.
May 28 12:22:50 <jackey> the battery only last for two hours
May 28 12:24:14 <CoreDump|home> sounds like a p0 =D
May 28 12:24:33 <jackey> recharing will take about 20 hours
May 28 12:24:59 <Bish> oO what?
May 28 12:24:59 <jackey> i think so, it is p0
May 28 12:25:06 <SpeedEvil> :/
May 28 12:25:08 <CoreDump|home> jackey: hook up your neo to a laptop via USB and forget the wall charger
May 28 12:25:33 <jackey> ok, let me give a try tomorrow
May 28 12:25:37 <CoreDump|home> charger == 100mA max, USB == 500mA max
May 28 12:25:45 <jackey> i c
May 28 12:25:50 <[ryd]> counter
May 28 12:25:50 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 23:47:03 (1.991 +-2.0 days) (1306;217)
May 28 12:26:21 <CM> CoreDump|home: Are you sure all laptops give 500mA?
May 28 12:26:50 <CoreDump|home> CM: well not really. All that I have access to work
May 28 12:27:17 <CM> CoreDump|home: Ok, just know some who have had problems with that
May 28 12:27:21 <jackey> hey, Do I really need the development board for JTAG and Serial for debugging?
May 28 12:27:23 <CM> Only getting 100mA from it
May 28 12:27:39 <CoreDump|home> jackey: yes
May 28 12:27:56 <CoreDump|home> CM: :\ Guess I'm just lucky then. 
May 28 12:28:06 <mattzerah> join #centos-social
May 28 12:28:13 <jackey> anyway, that I glue one myself?
May 28 12:28:28 <jackey> is that possible for me to glue one myself?
May 28 12:29:01 * CoreDump|home doesn't think so. Not easily in any case
May 28 12:29:05 <fijal> hi
May 28 12:29:24 <jackey> CoreDump, you mean i can use USB?
May 28 12:29:46 <CoreDump|home> jackey: for charging w/ 500mA, yes
May 28 12:30:56 <jackey> misunderstand here. I want to do everything from scratch. My question is that do i need extra equipment to do that
May 28 12:31:36 <jackey> such an extra development with JTAG and Serial cable
May 28 12:31:43 <CoreDump|home> jackey: you need the debug board to access the serial console and JTAG.
May 28 12:32:13 <jackey> How do i get one?
May 28 12:32:23 <jackey> or i can glue one myself
May 28 12:32:28 <jackey> Can I?
May 28 12:32:34 <fijal> is developement release planned to ship also in the EU?
May 28 12:32:35 <aloril> fijal: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 28 12:32:37 <CoreDump|home> I doubt it
May 28 12:32:58 <CoreDump|home> jackey: contact FIC to get one, they are not available for sale yet
May 28 12:34:54 <fijal> albino: ok, thx :)
May 28 12:35:00 <fijal> sorry, aloril:
May 28 12:35:20 <Bish> <3 openmoko
May 28 12:35:52 <fijal> anyway, web page says
May 28 12:35:54 <fijal> "OpenMokoProjects Could Not Connect to Database:"
May 28 12:36:01 <fijal> is this expected?
May 28 12:36:24 <guaqua> it's been reported, but obviously not corrected
May 28 12:54:03 <simon__> counter?
May 28 12:54:03 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 23:32:57 (1.981 +-2.0 days) (1307;217)
May 28 12:55:19 <fijal> nice bot, may I have one?
May 28 13:01:29 <abe> hi everyone
May 28 13:02:17 <abe> any news on this phone?!
May 28 13:02:17 <aloril> abe: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 28 13:19:23 <jackey> CoreDump|home, I will do that
May 28 13:19:38 <jackey> *^_^*
May 28 13:22:48 <jackey> hey, which tools can create a chat like http://people.openmoko.org/sean/specifications/images/software_stack2007.png?
May 28 13:26:46 <jeddy3_> what is the best way to test recent openmoko images on pc? qemu have not build for weeks for me
May 28 13:27:12 <rwhitby> jeddy3_: qemu seems to build for most other people - what error are you seeing?
May 28 13:27:34 <jeddy3_> Fatal error: can't create gnokiigsm/virtmodem.o: No such file or directory
May 28 13:28:57 <jeddy3_> rwhitby: (with mokomakefile's make qemu)
May 28 13:30:01 <rwhitby> jeddy3: try removing the build/qemu directory and rebuilding
May 28 13:30:27 <jeddy3_> rwhitby, will try!
May 28 13:30:31 <jeddy3_> *building*
May 28 13:31:10 * jeddy3_ will feel very stupid if it works :)
May 28 13:32:00 <rwhitby> Don't - these things should have dependencies which fix problems like that, but in this case it didn't.
May 28 13:32:36 <jeddy3_> rwhitby, yup it works, thanks
May 28 13:34:26 * lrak knocks on current-devel
May 28 13:38:26 <buz> http://rss.slashdot.org/~r/Slashdot/slashdot/~3/120255961/article.pl why would anyone buy that PoS
May 28 13:42:12 <hrw> buz: I would buy it
May 28 13:42:20 <buz> for what
May 28 13:42:23 <hrw> buz: it can be interesting device under linux
May 28 13:42:26 <buz> hacking linux on it?
May 28 13:42:32 <hrw> quite powerfull ARM machine
May 28 14:04:00 <LuitvD> hrw: would be great to have MS hardware run linux :P
May 28 14:04:38 <hrw> cpu used in zune is one of most powerfull arm cores
May 28 14:05:08 <LuitvD> nice
May 28 14:05:52 <LuitvD> freescale i.MX31
May 28 14:06:02 <hrw> hardware FP unit inside
May 28 14:07:01 <LuitvD> vector FP
May 28 14:08:12 <LuitvD> it's strange that the Zune has the Lite version then...
May 28 14:08:41 <hrw> less storage?
May 28 14:09:07 <LuitvD> no, the non-L version has a GPU interface
May 28 14:09:17 <LuitvD> can have peripheral GPU
May 28 14:09:21 <LuitvD> the L version can't
May 28 14:15:57 <buz> i thought non-l came with gpu
May 28 14:16:09 <buz> at very least 2d accel
May 28 14:17:45 <bmidgley> when do I get google earth on a handheld :)
May 28 14:18:44 <SpeedEvil> poke the LCD out, and look through the back :)
May 28 14:20:00 <bmidgley> and jump up really high?
May 28 14:20:13 <SpeedEvil> Zooming is a problem.
May 28 14:20:51 <SpeedEvil> Google earth is perhaps the only app I think that'd make a real case for a GPU.
May 28 14:22:51 <sannes> counter
May 28 14:22:51 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 22:48:33 (1.950 +-2.0 days) (1308;217)
May 28 14:32:19 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]] [[Bluetooth_Support]] [[User_talk:Jackey]] [[Introduction/zh_cn]] [[FAQ/zh_cn]]
May 28 15:11:31 <duffyd> hi has anyone got any updates on the scheduled 20th of May production run of Neo1973s?
May 28 15:12:09 <SpeedEvil> Nope.
May 28 15:12:20 <duffyd> SpeedEvil: k, thanks :-)
May 28 15:12:21 <CM> duffyd: Not a sound from anyone.. We're all waiting
May 28 15:12:31 <duffyd> ok
May 28 15:12:33 <SpeedEvil> Nor any info on if the 10th run was cancelled, or delayed
May 28 15:12:42 <duffyd> mmmm
May 28 15:12:52 * SpeedEvil makes like a mushroom.
May 28 15:59:54 <CIA-23> openmoko: 03stefan * r2091 10/trunk/oe/packages/tasks/task-openmoko.bb: 
May 28 15:59:54 <CIA-23> openmoko: * Remove matchbox-applet-startup-monitor from task-openmoko as we use
May 28 15:59:54 <CIA-23> openmoko:  openmoko-panel-startup now.
May 28 16:13:42 <hrw> stefan_schmidt: great!
May 28 16:17:17 <stefan_schmidt> hrw: This commit or because I commited your patch this nigth?
May 28 16:18:36 <hrw> this one
May 28 16:20:19 <hrw> ~curse openmoko bitbake
May 28 16:20:32 <apt> May you be reincarnated as a Windows XP administrator, openmoko bitbake !
May 28 16:20:39 <ewon> harsh
May 28 16:20:40 <stefan_schmidt> hrw: This was just cleanup. I commited the a working panel-2 applet some time ago. Hopefully find time this week to discuss the merge to matchbox svn.
May 28 16:33:55 <RedDog> Why OpenMokoProjects Could Not Connect to Database?
May 28 16:33:56 <aloril> RedDog: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
May 28 16:34:35 <WebJames> any news?
May 28 16:35:32 <Kensan> ewon: let it choose it's own faith just like DiskDoctor (http://it.slashdot.org/comments.pl?sid=128404&cid=10721509)
May 28 16:35:32 <Elrond> WebJames - Not really, except I can't reproduce GPS-stuff from C in python. :-|
May 28 16:38:55 <stefan_schmidt> RedDog: If we would know we had fixed already. :) Just kidding. Our admin should look into this.
May 28 16:39:04 <stefan_schmidt> RedDog: Already bug filled.
May 28 16:39:11 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Got a longer cable?
May 28 16:51:51 <barmeier> hi
May 28 16:53:40 <WebJames> Elrond, that's not so good. i thought that today would carry news of phase 1
May 28 16:55:59 <Elrond> counter
May 28 16:56:00 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 21:31:58 (1.897 +-1.9 days) (1309;217)
May 28 16:56:14 <Elrond> Doesn't look like news.
May 28 16:58:41 <Elrond> Hi ossman!
May 28 16:58:49 <ossman> evening
May 28 17:00:16 <balrog-kun> ossman: hiya
May 28 17:00:21 <balrog-kun> i got the SD host to work on my omap board
May 28 17:01:37 <ossman> nice
May 28 17:03:14 <balrog-kun> ossman: i will CC you on one of the patches if it's ok
May 28 17:03:16 <balrog-kun> tomorrow
May 28 17:03:20 <ossman> sure
May 28 17:04:40 <hrw> stefan_schmidt: startup-panel looks nice but it would be great to change colors
May 28 17:05:10 <hrw> stefan_schmidt: now it use old colors and is nearly not visible
May 28 17:05:13 <hrw> cu
May 28 17:07:28 <stefan_schmidt> hrw|gone: yeah, still need to clarify if we need other hourglass icons for the panel instead of just changing colors
May 28 17:07:31 <Elrond> BTW: Is the backlight control in current kernels also broken vor Bv04?
May 28 17:24:12 <LuitvD> counter
May 28 17:24:13 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 21:17:52 (1.887 +-1.9 days) (1310;217)
May 28 17:24:55 <LuitvD> hmm, I wonder if there actually is any delay...
May 28 17:25:31 <duffyd> LuitvD: that makes 2 of us :-)
May 28 17:25:31 <LuitvD> maybe they're already running production on the neo and are now trying to get the hxd8 on the line too?
May 28 17:25:49 <LuitvD> would make quite a nice surprise :P
May 28 17:25:57 <duffyd> yeah :-)
May 28 17:26:04 <LuitvD> that the late-may release is 2 phones instead of one
May 28 17:26:08 <LuitvD> would be cool :)
May 28 17:26:18 <duffyd> LuitvD: very cool
May 28 17:26:26 <duffyd> LuitvD: btw what is the hxd8?
May 28 17:26:48 <LuitvD> duffyd: it's something that has come into vision lately
May 28 17:26:50 <guaqua> i'm thinking you are delirious
May 28 17:26:58 <guaqua> there is going to be one phone
May 28 17:27:12 <LuitvD> guaqua: I am delirious :) always been
May 28 17:27:29 <duffyd> LuitvD: ok, do tell :-)
May 28 17:27:43 <duffyd> about the hxd8 that is
May 28 17:27:55 <LuitvD> duffyd: appearately FIC is prototyping/building another OpenMoko device right now, because some hardware patches and docs appeared on the subversion repositories
May 28 17:28:18 <LuitvD> duffyd: mentioning the code-name HXD8 several times, combined with some hardware specs
May 28 17:28:34 <duffyd> LuitvD: btw I'm in Taiwan at the moment. So *hopefully* closer to the 'source' :-)
May 28 17:28:45 <duffyd> LuitvD: ahhh, thanks
May 28 17:29:03 <LuitvD> duffyd: this weekend I gathered the info on those hardware patches and put them here: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/HXD8
May 28 17:29:15 <LuitvD> duffyd: well, the production is done in mainland China
May 28 17:29:16 <duffyd> LuitvD: great!
May 28 17:29:18 <LuitvD> not taiwan
May 28 17:29:39 <duffyd> LuitvD: yes, I know but they should eventually land back at FIC :-)
May 28 17:29:50 <LuitvD> yes
May 28 18:54:40 <zipola> Is the announce list still active? I haven't received any info for ages.
May 28 18:57:41 <duffyd> zipola: you and me both :-)
May 28 18:58:03 <balrog-kun> i haven't either, but then again i'm not subscribed
May 28 18:58:29 <duffyd> it appears that 'counter' is the main way to find out
May 28 18:58:30 <duffyd> counter
May 28 18:58:31 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 20:30:43 (1.855 +-1.9 days) (1311;218)
May 28 18:59:01 <zipola> Counter is all about numbers, I want something to read :)
May 28 18:59:21 <stefan_schmidt> zipola: Buy a book?
May 28 18:59:33 <duffyd> zipola: yes. I think it's called PR (in marketing speak)
May 28 18:59:55 <balrog-kun> i want something to make calls with :)
May 28 19:00:48 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: Your bv1 can already do this. :)
May 28 19:00:51 <stefan_schmidt> bv4
May 28 19:02:16 <balrog-kun> speaking of which, i need to try it harder tomorrow
May 28 19:27:56 <Fletch> counter
May 28 19:27:56 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 20:16:00 (1.844 +-1.8 days) (1312;218)
May 28 19:42:53 <buz> LuitvD: where exactly did you get the impression that hxd8 has a gsm module
May 28 19:43:31 <LuitvD> err... :P
May 28 19:43:45 <LuitvD> quote:
May 28 19:43:46 <LuitvD> GSM/GPRS
May 28 19:43:46 <LuitvD> Not much info yet. 
May 28 19:43:50 <LuitvD> unquote
May 28 19:43:54 <LuitvD> ;)
May 28 19:44:20 <buz> i thought YOU wrote that page
May 28 19:45:53 <LuitvD> yes
May 28 19:45:56 <LuitvD> not much info yet
May 28 19:46:02 <balrog-kun> LuitvD first wrote it, then got the impression that this information was somewhere in the wiki, and indeed it was there
May 28 19:46:03 <LuitvD> so I don't know
May 28 19:46:39 <LuitvD> well... I simply expect it to be a GSM device..
May 28 19:46:57 <LuitvD> and it does
May 28 19:46:59 <LuitvD> have
May 28 19:47:01 <LuitvD> gsm
May 28 19:47:01 <LuitvD> XD
May 28 19:47:16 <LuitvD> damn, I'm chaotic today, ...
May 28 19:47:29 * LuitvD smashes his head on his desk
May 28 19:47:29 <balrog-kun> but honestly i also had the impression that there was a GSM from looking at the first u-boot patches
May 28 19:47:30 <LuitvD> there
May 28 19:47:48 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: not the u-boot patches, the gpio.txt
May 28 19:47:52 <buz> maybe fic stole a few iphone prototypes hehehe
May 28 19:48:03 <LuitvD> GPH0	O	nCTS0	MODEM_CTS		GSM Modem
May 28 19:48:03 <LuitvD> GPH1	I	nRTS0	MODEM_RTS		GSM Modem
May 28 19:48:03 <LuitvD> GPH2	I	RXD0	MODEM_RXD		GSM Modem
May 28 19:48:03 <LuitvD> GPH3	O	TXD0	MODEM_TXD		GSM Modem
May 28 19:48:03 <LuitvD> G
May 28 19:48:04 <balrog-kun> yeah, gpio.txt has MODEM_RST and MODEM_ON too,
May 28 19:48:16 <LuitvD> and modem on / rst
May 28 19:48:26 <LuitvD> and there's GPS
May 28 19:48:26 <balrog-kun> but i think i've seen something in the u-boot
May 28 19:48:31 <buz> that seems quite clear then
May 28 19:48:37 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: could be...
May 28 19:48:46 <LuitvD> buz: yeah :P
May 28 19:49:09 <wiml> is the HXD8 different from the Neo1973? The comment in hxd8-core.patch implies that HXD8 is just the internal model name for the Neo1973
May 28 19:49:11 <balrog-kun> oh, gpio.txt also mentions a remote control
May 28 19:49:14 <LuitvD> buz: but I put "not much info yet" there because there's no info on what brand/type modem
May 28 19:49:21 <wiml> (I just googled for HXD8 and that was one of the first results)
May 28 19:49:27 <balrog-kun> i wonder if the liht sensor is connected with remote control
May 28 19:49:37 <LuitvD> wiml: the Neo's code name is GTA
May 28 19:49:52 <wiml> hmm
May 28 19:50:25 <LuitvD> wiml: the only thing on the internet about HXD8 is about this project, because nobody has used that codename before, and the openmoko patches are the first to point at the FIC device 
May 28 19:50:56 * balrog-kun asks himself what's on UART2 in HXD8 though
May 28 19:51:02 <LuitvD> wiml: just like when you googled Neo1973 about 6 months ago, you could only find it, combined with "OpenMoko"
May 28 19:51:10 <balrog-kun> the pins are wired to something called URSW
May 28 19:51:17 <wiml> well... http://svnweb.openmoko.org/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/hxd8-core.patch?rev=1931&view=markup
May 28 19:51:19 <wiml> ?
May 28 19:51:25 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: which pins?
May 28 19:51:36 <balrog-kun> LuitvD: RXD2 and TXD2
May 28 19:51:42 <wiml> "Say Y here [to MACH_HXD8] if you are using the FIC Neo1973 GSM Phone"
May 28 19:51:59 <balrog-kun> there's no description after these pins like for UART0 and UART1
May 28 19:52:10 <buz> wiml: that makes no sense
May 28 19:52:19 <buz> neo1973 has s3c2410
May 28 19:52:29 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: that's odd :)
May 28 19:52:34 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: I'll look it up
May 28 19:52:36 <buz> i think thats a mistake
May 28 19:53:12 <buz> is mach machine archictecture
May 28 19:53:18 <buz> or mach as in mach kernel
May 28 19:54:03 <balrog-kun> buz: in Linux it means machine :)
May 28 19:54:06 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: I wonder how much of the info on the wiki page is actually incorrect :)
May 28 19:54:07 <Vegar> buz: the next neo1973 revisions are supposed to have s3c2440
May 28 19:54:09 <buz> ah right
May 28 19:54:11 <wiml> so maybe HXD8 is a later phone, but still branded Neo1973 despite significant internal differences (like using the S3C2440 instead of '2410)
May 28 19:54:14 <buz> Vegar: yes
May 28 19:54:24 <buz> i think they should up the number on rev2
May 28 19:54:32 <wiml> Neo1974 ? :)
May 28 19:54:38 <buz> sure
May 28 19:54:57 <LuitvD> balrog-kun: 'coz I found quite a bit more information, that's not yet on the wiki, because I'm not sure :)
May 28 19:55:00 <buz> but it has 480pixel screen
May 28 19:55:06 <buz> i'm pissed if they degrade the scree nfor rev2
May 28 19:55:11 <webjames_> hello everyone
May 28 19:55:13 <balrog-kun> wiml: well, there is a already a couple of peripherals in HXD8 that you don't see in phones and that the initial Neo1973 specs don't talk about
May 28 19:56:14 <LuitvD> buz: what do you mean, 480pixel screen?
May 28 19:56:25 <buz> 480x272
May 28 19:56:29 <LuitvD> ah, the HXD
May 28 19:56:53 <LuitvD> I bet the Neo will remain VGA through all hardware revisions
May 28 19:57:11 <buz> i very much hope so
May 28 19:57:14 <LuitvD> they'll only degrade resolution if there's some real supply problem for those VGA LCM's
May 28 19:57:41 <buz> maybe hxd8 is a more phone than pda device
May 28 19:57:45 <webjames_> LuitvD: i really hope they exhaust every other possibility before degrading the res
May 28 19:58:06 <LuitvD> webjames_: I bet they will...
May 28 19:58:21 <LuitvD> webjames_: maybe that's why there's no announcement yet, maybe it isn't
May 28 19:58:28 <buz> i think its kinda weird that 1year after they must have started planning neo the lcd makers still cant deliver volume of the lcm
May 28 19:58:46 <webjames_> buz, i'd agree with that
May 28 19:59:01 <LuitvD> buz: it's a new LCM for those people ...
May 28 19:59:09 <LuitvD> one of their newest
May 28 19:59:37 <LuitvD> FIC chose an LCM that was still prototyping/sampling at the time of Phase0
May 28 20:00:06 <Vegar> that's pretty cool
May 28 20:01:13 <LuitvD> it's strange that so many pins (in gpio.txt) are NC (Not Connected)
May 28 20:01:49 <LuitvD> all of GPJ and GPG3-7
May 28 20:02:25 <buz> why oh why no 3mpixel cam
May 28 20:02:55 <wiml> I don't really care about megapixellage in a phone cam
May 28 20:03:05 <wiml> I'm more interested in poor lighting / dynamic range
May 28 20:03:08 <LuitvD> oh yes, that's what's gonna be on GPJ ofcourse
May 28 20:03:33 <buz> megapixel is the new megahurtz
May 28 20:03:40 <LuitvD> yay :)
May 28 20:04:03 <webjames> a camera would be nice, although surly it would be possible to plug in a webcam?
May 28 20:04:06 <LuitvD> my 5MPixel cam shoots way better pictures then my sister's 10MPixel cam
May 28 20:04:19 <LuitvD> webjames: yup, via USB Host :)
May 28 20:04:33 <buz> too be fair, many of the 3mpixel phone cams DO come with better optics than lower end ones
May 28 20:04:39 <buz> not good, but better
May 28 20:04:42 <webjames> is your sister one of these people who puts her finger over the lens?
May 28 20:04:49 <webjames> @ LuitvD
May 28 20:05:19 <LuitvD> webjames: yup, well, on her camera, it's over the flash :P
May 28 20:06:53 <LuitvD> oh I really hope the HXD8 has an accelerometer :D
May 28 20:07:12 <LuitvD> then all my predictions are correct :P
May 28 20:07:17 <buz> id much prefer a place to put a stylus
May 28 20:07:20 <buz> if its a touchscreen
May 28 20:07:24 <LuitvD> buz: true :P
May 28 20:07:32 <buz> that's pure stupidity
May 28 20:07:37 <buz> and not excusable
May 28 20:07:50 <buz> lack of wifi has a reason
May 28 20:07:56 <buz> lack of place to store a stylus not
May 28 20:07:57 <LuitvD> buz: hell, after 2,5 years whith a Palm T|E2 i never need my stylus anymore
May 28 20:08:08 <buz> i still use mine daily with my p900
May 28 20:08:09 <wiml> accelerometer would be way cool (and fairly cheap AIUI)
May 28 20:08:14 <LuitvD> just do everything whith a pen
May 28 20:08:29 <wiml> LuitvD, but where do I keep the pen then?
May 28 20:08:42 <buz> yeah
May 28 20:08:44 <LuitvD> I always have a pen in my back pocket
May 28 20:08:49 <buz> wtf
May 28 20:08:54 <LuitvD> :)
May 28 20:08:55 <buz> how can one store a pen there
May 28 20:09:00 <buz> i'd have blue pants every week
May 28 20:09:07 <LuitvD> lol
May 28 20:09:15 <LuitvD> ballpoint...
May 28 20:09:22 <buz> those leak too
May 28 20:09:26 <LuitvD> not really...
May 28 20:09:33 <buz> one would need some sort of titanium encased uberpen
May 28 20:09:37 <buz> indestructible
May 28 20:09:51 <LuitvD> I never had a leaking ballpoint, ever
May 28 20:09:59 <buz> i destroy EVERY pen
May 28 20:10:02 <LuitvD> :)
May 28 20:10:13 <buz> only once destroyed a phone though
May 28 20:10:18 <buz> and that one by jumping into the lake
May 28 20:10:23 <LuitvD> heheh
May 28 20:10:36 <LuitvD> I always empty pens completely :) 
May 28 20:10:54 <wiml> solution: wear blue jeans and use blue ballpoints. if they leak no one can tell ;)
May 28 20:11:01 <LuitvD> I find a pen that's comfortable in my hands, use it all the time, carry it with me all the time
May 28 20:11:11 <LuitvD> and when it's through, I have a new good one ready
May 28 20:11:38 <buz> i've started getting the cheap 0.12EUR ones
May 28 20:11:54 <LuitvD> I have a whole bunch of pens from work
May 28 20:11:58 <webjames> get a fisher space pen, they don't leak and they are small
May 28 20:12:08 <buz> and cost like 150us
May 28 20:12:26 <webjames> no, i got a bullet for £10 of ebay
May 28 20:12:29 <LuitvD> though you buy them for 15 cents :P
May 28 20:12:38 <SpeedEvil> You can get the fischer pen refils cheap.
May 28 20:12:46 <SpeedEvil> Jam it into a cheap pen.
May 28 20:12:56 <buz> way too much work
May 28 20:12:58 <buz> best dont write
May 28 20:13:16 <LuitvD> I need a stainless steel pen...
May 28 20:13:24 <SpeedEvil> You can get silver pens.
May 28 20:13:32 <SpeedEvil> They have a silver tip. Pure silver.
May 28 20:13:33 <LuitvD> had an aluminium one once... bloody dangerous thing
May 28 20:13:38 <buz> stainless ones are quite easy to find
May 28 20:13:47 <buz> they just dont have the advantages of stainless
May 28 20:13:59 <buz> wtf is a silver pen good for
May 28 20:14:02 <LuitvD> never get an aluminium pen, they break and get absurdly sharp
May 28 20:14:06 * CoreDump|home has a stainless Parker ballpoint pen and is quite happy w/ it
May 28 20:14:11 <SpeedEvil> Silver nib.
May 28 20:14:27 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: silver ball you mean?
May 28 20:14:32 <SpeedEvil> No.
May 28 20:14:37 <SpeedEvil> A solid silver cone.
May 28 20:14:39 <LuitvD> ah
May 28 20:14:41 <buz> its more of a pencil then
May 28 20:14:42 <LuitvD> nice :)
May 28 20:14:44 <SpeedEvil> Yes.
May 28 20:14:53 <LuitvD> and expensive XD
May 28 20:14:56 <SpeedEvil> Really hard to break, will write on most stuff, and waterproof.
May 28 20:15:00 <buz> silver is not very expensive
May 28 20:15:06 <LuitvD> well...
May 28 20:15:08 <SpeedEvil> No. Not now.
May 28 20:15:16 <buz> well its increased steadily
May 28 20:15:28 <LuitvD> titanium is cheaper right?
May 28 20:15:32 <SpeedEvil> Bunker+Hunt failed.
May 28 20:15:35 <buz> i doubt it
May 28 20:15:40 <SpeedEvil> You want a nice soft metal.
May 28 20:15:51 <buz> titanium is painful to machine
May 28 20:15:53 <SpeedEvil> Pure silver is quite soft, and corrosion proof.
May 28 20:16:22 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: I don't want a soft metal, because soft metal can bend... especially when the pen is in a back pocket
May 28 20:16:36 <SpeedEvil> It's a cone. Of solid metal.
May 28 20:16:37 <buz> you want soft metal for the tip
May 28 20:16:42 <SpeedEvil> You're not bending it.
May 28 20:16:48 <buz> you might
May 28 20:16:50 <buz> silver IS soft
May 28 20:17:22 <buz> where do you get those
May 28 20:17:26 <buz> sounds like the perfect gift
May 28 20:17:57 <SpeedEvil> hang on. have the link somewhere.
May 28 20:18:02 <SpeedEvil> It's a keychain one. 
May 28 20:18:49 <SpeedEvil> http://edcforums.com/
May 28 20:19:09 <SpeedEvil> Though that's the base site - it was a post on there.
May 28 20:19:12 <SpeedEvil> Looking now.
May 28 20:19:20 <wiml> http://www.grand-illusions.com/acatalog/info_48.html ?
May 28 20:19:59 <buz> silver is much nicer for a gift
May 28 20:21:59 <CoreDump|home> this type of pen was new to me thanks
May 28 20:22:19 <SpeedEvil> Yes - probably that one.
May 28 20:23:01 <buz> that one is NOT silver
May 28 20:23:08 <SpeedEvil> Well - not that one.
May 28 20:23:26 <SpeedEvil> there are many similar ones. there was a very small one - I'm still looking.
May 28 20:24:39 <buz> basically, you want a pencil formed piece of silver
May 28 20:24:58 <buz> might not be entirely practical, but the gift value is giant
May 28 20:25:14 <buz> and since silver is soft, its easy to imprint with special message
May 28 20:25:51 * buz starts a gift idea basket
May 28 20:26:06 <buz> (basket.kde.org that is)
May 28 20:26:44 <wiml> I wonder if metal pens would make good touchscreen styli or if they develop burrs or edges that would damage the screen
May 28 20:29:14 <buz> they are too hard for that i guess
May 28 20:29:23 <buz> i for one would not want to use one on my tablet
May 28 20:30:21 <CoreDump|home> talking of tablets....does anyone know any decent sub-500$ ones that run Linux natively? And the Nx00 don't count ;)
May 28 20:30:42 <buz> i meant tablet as in table tpc ;)
May 28 20:30:48 <SpeedEvil> http://edcforums.com/index.php?board=32.0 - the pens forum.
May 28 20:31:00 <buz> but mine runs linux nearly perfectly
May 28 20:31:11 <buz> the issue is just that there is barely any handwriting recognition on linux
May 28 20:32:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/ru]]
May 28 20:32:24 <CoreDump|home> buz: true
May 28 20:46:06 <LuitvD> buz: handwriting > mathML 
May 28 20:46:35 <LuitvD> I really prefer on-screen-keyboard over handwriting though...
May 28 20:47:01 <LuitvD> don't care about handwriting recognition
May 28 20:47:45 <buz> no one in their sane mind writes mathml by hand
May 28 20:48:13 <LuitvD> buz: I mean a formula-recognition program...
May 28 20:48:18 <buz> there is one for iwndows
May 28 20:48:24 <LuitvD> found one when looking for handwriting recognition
May 28 20:48:25 <buz> works very well
May 28 20:48:30 <LuitvD> yeha
May 28 20:48:30 <buz> but costs serious $
May 28 20:48:40 <LuitvD> there's an open source one too...
May 28 20:48:46 <buz> oh really
May 28 20:48:47 <buz> where
May 28 20:48:53 <LuitvD> dunno
May 28 20:48:57 <buz> name?
May 28 20:49:08 <LuitvD> scan sourceforge, saw it there
May 28 20:49:21 <LuitvD> don't know the name anymore because I didn't really care
May 28 20:49:23 <LuitvD> :P
May 28 20:50:20 <LuitvD> I wonder... those I2C and SPI pins available on the Neo... you could hang a SID chip on that I2C bus 
May 28 20:50:40 <LuitvD> if you could only loop it back towards the wolfson codec for afterprocessing...
May 28 21:06:34 <Elrond> LuitvD - On the neo, the on screen keyboards aren't ... optimal so say the least.
May 28 21:07:04 <LuitvD> Elrond: why? what's wrong whith it then?
May 28 21:07:11 <Elrond> LuitvD - openmoko-keyboard already is better then matchbox-keyboard. If openmoko-keyboard would work in landscape mode, it would get usable.
May 28 21:08:20 <CoreDump|home> Elrond: last time I checked, OM kbd was close to useless. No TAB key, god-awful switching between lowercase uppercase and symbols etc
May 28 21:08:42 <woglinde> coredump yes
May 28 21:08:47 <CoreDump|home> the ancient matchbox kbd was much preferred
May 28 21:09:29 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - Yep. But matchbox-keyboard is plain unreadable.
May 28 21:09:39 <SpeedEvil> SID?
May 28 21:09:44 <CoreDump|home> not to me, sorry
May 28 21:09:58 <CoreDump|home> but I feel you pain =)
May 28 21:10:13 <Elrond> CoreDump|home - I gave the neo with matchbox-keyboard to a guy with good eyes, he was struggling.
May 28 21:10:25 <woglinde> elrond hm for me its okay
May 28 21:10:36 <CoreDump|home> my eyesight sucks and I find it to be ok-ish
May 28 21:10:45 <Elrond> Hmm..
May 28 21:11:16 <Elrond> Well. I personally am completely lost on the matchbox-keyboard. And yes, om-kbd isn't really good either.
May 28 21:11:50 <Elrond> I should try mb-kbd in landscape mode.
May 28 21:12:15 <woglinde> hm matchbox-kb has only one problem delete/backspace happend to offen
May 28 21:12:23 <CoreDump|home> The only truly annoying thing about matchbox kbd is the little fact that it parses the space _between_ keys as enter. Once mis-tap and *bang*
May 28 21:12:28 <Elrond> BTW: Do the current rootfs-images have a menu option for rotating? Last time, I didn't find it and used xrandr on the cmdline.
May 28 21:13:45 * LuitvD is off for some sleep now
May 28 21:14:07 <LuitvD> need some rest... have my chemistry exams tomorrow
May 28 21:14:08 <Elrond> Good night LuitvD 
May 28 21:14:14 <Elrond> Huh.
May 28 21:14:18 <Elrond> LuitvD - Good luck! :-)
May 28 21:14:19 <CoreDump|home> n8 LuitvD 
May 28 21:14:21 <woglinde> nite luit
May 28 21:14:22 <LuitvD> thnx :)
May 28 21:14:25 <LuitvD> good night all
May 28 21:25:07 <Elrond> Okay... someone asked for flicker... The best thing to get flicker: kill all full-screen apps, so you see the X-background, then "xsetroot -solid orange".
May 28 21:26:54 <webjames> night all
May 28 22:32:19 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]]
May 28 22:33:18 * balrog-kun just made a first successful phonecall
May 28 22:33:52 <pavelm> Hello, everyone
May 28 22:34:02 <pavelm> ...so I've created time-traveling gps from openmoko.
May 28 22:34:12 <balrog-kun> turns out the sim card must sit firmly in the slot
May 28 22:34:29 <balrog-kun> what is a time-travelling gps? :)
May 28 22:34:30 <pavelm> balrog: Yep, the sim slot is misdesigned :-(
May 28 22:34:40 <balrog-kun> pavelm: well, but it worked
May 28 22:34:48 <balrog-kun> i made my first call :)
May 28 22:34:55 <pavelm> balrog: bluetooth gps that shows you where you've been 10 minutes ago :-)
May 28 22:35:15 <balrog-kun> oh, that's useful
May 28 22:35:21 <pavelm> balrog: Did mixers work?
May 28 22:35:33 <Elrond> pavelm - *giggle* delaying gllin output for 10minutes, then feeding to bt?
May 28 22:35:40 <balrog-kun> more useful would be to know where you're going to be in 10 minutes from now though
May 28 22:35:58 <pavelm> balrog: Did you use Phase1 software, or something else, to do a call?
May 28 22:36:01 <balrog-kun> pavelm: yes, i think they worked - i was talking to myself so can't tell very well
May 28 22:36:30 <pavelm> elrond: Well, I probably overloaded cpu with strace & mmc accesses, so it ended up delaying 10+ minutes; I did not _want_ that.
May 28 22:36:40 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i first used "cu" to talk to ttySAC0 raw to confirm that the SIM is properly detected now, then used gsmd+OpenMoko dialer and it worked they way it should :)
May 28 22:36:54 <Elrond> pavelm - *G*
May 28 22:37:01 <pavelm> balrog: "where you will be in 10 minutes" would violate some rather important laws.
May 28 22:37:23 <Elrond> pavelm - I tried to rewrite ph5's hhtest.c in python. I was not successful :-(  (and feeling dumb)
May 28 22:37:27 <balrog-kun> pavelm: that's what laws are for :)
May 28 22:37:40 <balrog-kun> i don't know if answering calls is implemented though
May 28 22:38:02 <pavelm> elrond: I'd say that hhtest is the kind of code that should be written in c.
May 28 22:38:10 <pavelm> balrog: I think they are.
May 28 22:38:32 <pavelm> ...and the gps seems to mostly work indoors near window. Good.
May 28 22:38:40 <SpeedEvil> :)
May 28 22:38:48 <balrog-kun> great
May 28 22:38:59 <pavelm> balrog/anyone: did you try to measure standby time?
May 28 22:39:06 <pavelm> ...is there good way to get current power consumption?
May 28 22:39:40 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: Got a multimeter?
May 28 22:40:20 <balrog-kun> i haven't yet
May 28 22:40:22 <pavelm> speed: Hmm, not sure if I get multimeter with enough range.. and good way of hooking it up.
May 28 22:40:39 <SpeedEvil> 10A range should generally give a resolution of 10mA
May 28 22:40:43 <SpeedEvil> which is generally enough.
May 28 22:40:50 <balrog-kun> i'm very surprised that the phone doesn't need to know my PIN to make calls with my sim card
May 28 22:41:01 <SpeedEvil> You take two bits of copper foil - ideally, aluminium mostly works.
May 28 22:41:05 <balrog-kun> but the surprise is only a result of my lack of education
May 28 22:41:15 <SpeedEvil> Then put it on double sided tape.
May 28 22:41:19 <pavelm> balrog: Oops, that is strange. ... that should not happen.
May 28 22:41:19 <SpeedEvil> each side of.
May 28 22:41:41 <SpeedEvil> Connect each bit of foil to the meter probe, and slip it in between the battery and the contact.
May 28 22:42:02 <pavelm> speed: I've old analog multimeter here. 100mA is biggest range it has.
May 28 22:42:06 <balrog-kun> it never asked me for the PIN, and i called my home (landline) number just fine
May 28 22:42:07 <SpeedEvil> Oh well.
May 28 22:42:17 <pavelm> spped: That's 300mW :-(
May 28 22:42:19 <SpeedEvil> That's probably not going to work for other than 'sleep' mode.
May 28 22:42:28 <Elrond> pavelm - Well, for hacking around quickly and writing "feed gps with funny byte streams", python is nice.
May 28 22:42:49 <pavelm> balrog: That seriously should not happen. SIM card should force you to enter pin.
May 28 22:43:15 <pavelm> balrog: ...it is possible to enter pin with libgsmtool. And I had to do that in order to register to network.
May 28 22:43:35 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i never did
May 28 22:43:38 <pavelm> ..wait a moment, I have _older_ analog multimeter here :-)
May 28 22:43:58 <rwhitby> balrog-kun: depends whether you had the pin on the sim or on the phone on your old phone
May 28 22:44:02 <SpeedEvil> Electrons are electrons :)
May 28 22:44:12 <balrog-kun> i wonder if there was maybe some option to unlock the card in the older phone's menu and maybe i used it... hmm
May 28 22:44:20 <balrog-kun> the phone in which i used this card before
May 28 22:44:57 <pavelm> PIN Can be turned off on sim card.
May 28 22:45:28 <balrog-kun> that's probably what happened, although on the older phone the PIN had to be entered everytime the device was switched on
May 28 22:45:37 <wiml> if you have some resistors handy you could wire up a shunt to measure >100mA with your 100mA meter
May 28 22:45:52 <SpeedEvil> Or thin wire even.
May 28 22:45:59 <pavelm> speed: 2.5A range - 10W on openmoko should be good enough.
May 28 22:46:02 <SpeedEvil> but - it's harder to calibrate.
May 28 22:46:22 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: Sure - as long as the voltage drop isn't too much. But I can't imagine that being a problem.
May 28 22:46:38 <balrog-kun> it even reports the strength of the signal :)
May 28 22:47:24 <balrog-kun> i wonder if i could hack up a real working dialer that supports SMS and answering calls and display signal strength using gnokii sources, this week
May 28 22:47:58 <balrog-kun> qtopia should also have some working dialer (although that will be C++)
May 28 22:48:17 * SpeedEvil passes balrog-kun ncurses.
May 28 22:48:21 <woglinde> balrog not really
May 28 22:48:30 <zecke> balrog-kun: yes, but not as GPL
May 28 22:48:35 <woglinde> sms reading on greenphone is broken too
May 28 22:48:44 <balrog-kun> the gnokii code should be easy enough to hook to an ncurses interface
May 28 22:48:57 <pavelm> balrog: Actually, I started that.
May 28 22:49:00 <pavelm> balrog: See tui.sf.net
May 28 22:49:15 <pavelm> balrog: It can dial/answer/read sms
May 28 22:49:16 <balrog-kun> pavelm: thanks, gonna try
May 28 22:49:36 <pavelm> balrog: scmxx based, not gnokii based, and ncurses.
May 28 22:49:50 <pavelm> balrog: I did not figure out how to do reasonable input on openmoko :-(
May 28 22:50:06 <SpeedEvil> xterm + 'mouse' input
May 28 22:50:11 <balrog-kun> it doesn't depend on gsmd, does it?
May 28 22:50:33 <pavelm> speed: yes, that's what I did. And it worked.
May 28 22:50:44 <pavelm> speed: But I'd not call it "reasonable" :-)
May 28 22:50:51 <SpeedEvil> Meh :)
May 28 22:50:53 <pavelm> speed: I guess the code is in tui.sf.net cvs.
May 28 22:50:59 <SpeedEvil> Fun.
May 28 22:51:07 <balrog-kun> maybe some T9 input method like older phones have
May 28 22:51:20 <balrog-kun> i wonder if there's an opensource implementation of T9 available
May 28 22:51:20 <pavelm> ...yes, called input_rxvt
May 28 22:51:35 <pavelm> balrog: Problem is you can't see the buttons :-)
May 28 22:51:57 <balrog-kun> unless you draw some buttons :)
May 28 22:52:18 <pavelm> balrog: I'd have to do ascii art... with no space left for phone's display.
May 28 22:52:46 <pavelm> balrog: So my hack is that screen contains just 9 really big buttons you don't see... and all the screen area is used for output, too.
May 28 22:52:46 <SpeedEvil> The silly solution is to put it as xterm 'unreadable' font. (1x1 pix) 
May 28 22:52:52 * pavelm has no aluminium font.
May 28 22:53:07 <pavelm> speed: Even 8x8 font is unreadable on openmoko ;-)
May 28 22:53:20 <SpeedEvil> 1*1 - treated as a bitmap display.
May 28 22:54:15 <Elrond> balrog-kun - AFAIK: T9 is patented. ;-)
May 28 22:54:33 <wiml> do you know what aspects are patented?
May 28 22:54:35 <balrog-kun> Elrond: oh right, that's likely
May 28 22:54:45 <wiml> the basic idea of it seems pretty, well, basic
May 28 22:54:47 <Elrond> wiml - No.
May 28 22:55:07 <Elrond> wiml - You could try fighting it in court then. ;-)
May 28 22:55:18 <Elrond> ... "inexpensively" ;o))
May 28 22:55:28 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: if you want - PM me your address, and I could mail you some copper tape.
May 28 22:55:55 <wiml> heh :P
May 28 22:56:14 <pavelm> wiml: or you can ignore the patents. Just move to free country ;-)
May 28 22:56:42 <Elrond> old europe still is quite free. :)
May 28 22:57:04 <woglinde> free?
May 28 22:57:06 * balrog-kun suggests brazil
May 28 22:57:29 <Elrond> woglinde - Well, in parts more free than .us
May 28 22:57:52 <pavelm> Alan Cox suggests Cuba, while I suggests Czech republic. Russia and China are very safe bets ;-)
May 28 22:58:07 <woglinde> russia?
May 28 22:58:15 <balrog-kun> anywhere is more free than .us
May 28 22:58:27 <balrog-kun> ugh, i wouldn't say that about China
May 28 22:59:34 <balrog-kun> does tui save your current alsa settings when it's overwriting them with some of the predefined ones?
May 28 22:59:40 <pavelm> balrog: Well, both china and russia ignore both patents and copyrights.
May 28 22:59:47 <pavelm> balrog: No saving.
May 28 22:59:55 <balrog-kun> okay
May 28 23:00:27 <woglinde> hm russia denies your humans right too
May 28 23:00:29 <SpeedEvil> China is free - if you are in with the right people.
May 28 23:00:33 <SpeedEvil> Same with russia.
May 28 23:00:56 <pavelm> ugh. Me stupid. Why bother with double-sided tape when I can connect old 3.6V Battery?
May 28 23:01:15 <SpeedEvil> It's simply to ensure that you don't get the wrong contact.
May 28 23:01:29 <SpeedEvil> You can of course put the battery externally, and run all the wires.
May 28 23:02:21 <pavelm> speed: Hmm, will it boot w/o thermistor connected?
May 28 23:02:23 <Elrond> woglinde - Well, isn't Schaeuble on the "deny human rights"-trip also? ;o)
May 28 23:02:35 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: I have absolutely no idea.
May 28 23:03:09 <pavelm> ...will take phase _0_ openmoko for this experiment
May 28 23:03:18 <aloril> (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Connectivity Problems Sorted Out http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/05/29/connectivity-problems-sorted-out/
May 28 23:03:29 <Elrond> pavelm - If *I* would have constructed the PMU logic, I would not boot without thermistor, logic being "*arg* No signal from thermo. Better be safe, before the bnattery explodes." ;o)
May 28 23:03:51 <pavelm> ...hammerhead gps travelled 0.7km ... while sitting on my table ;-)
May 28 23:03:53 <woglinde> wb mickeyl
May 28 23:04:09 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: You live in a houseboat?
May 28 23:04:14 <pavelm> ...actually, it would be nice if openmoko was able to boot w/o battery connected.
May 28 23:04:33 <pavelm> speed: No. Apparently hammerhead is not as indoor as it claims :-)
May 28 23:04:49 <wiml> some text entry links
May 28 23:04:49 <wiml> http://www.inference.phy.cam.ac.uk/dasher/
May 28 23:04:49 <wiml> http://depts.washington.edu/ewrite/
May 28 23:04:50 <wiml> http://www.dcs.gla.ac.uk/~jhw/text.html
May 28 23:04:50 <wiml> http://www.cs.uta.fi/~poika/g/g.html
May 28 23:05:04 <SpeedEvil> It could be the hardware is perfectly able, just the software...
May 28 23:05:08 <wiml> (I was looking for that first one (dasher) but the others I ran across looked interesting too)
May 28 23:05:14 <SpeedEvil> Who knows.
May 28 23:05:46 <SpeedEvil> I don't like dasher.
May 28 23:05:51 <SpeedEvil> Oh sure, it looks cool.
May 28 23:06:07 <pavelm> speed: Plus, openmoko should have "connect 3.6V here" connector somewhere.
May 28 23:06:08 <SpeedEvil> But, I'd really like something that you don't need fullscreen, and constant staring to wrok.
May 28 23:06:18 <SpeedEvil> For exasmple, I'm able to type this while watching TB.
May 28 23:06:24 <Elrond> wiml - Can you please put the links on the wiki, if you really think, they're good?
May 28 23:07:28 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: Hmm. It _might_ not use any power to charge the battery if the battery is fully charged, and it's connected to USB at full-rate. So you could put the meter there.
May 28 23:07:44 <wiml> sure
May 28 23:08:54 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - I never saw it in "idle" mode for me... it always was charging. :-(
May 28 23:09:03 <SpeedEvil> :/
May 28 23:09:22 <SpeedEvil> That's going to _horribly_ screw the battery if it doesn't turn off properly at 4.2V
May 28 23:09:28 <SpeedEvil> And just floats it.
May 28 23:09:41 <pavelm> now I know it can run w/o thermistor connected ;-)
May 28 23:10:00 <SpeedEvil> pavelm: the nasty way. Connect to PC 3.3V line.
May 28 23:10:32 * balrog-kun just discovered that "echo mem > /sys/power/state" usually works and "echo standby > /sys/power/state" usually doesn't
May 28 23:10:41 <balrog-kun> even though they should be the same thing
May 28 23:11:23 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - What does "float it" mean?
May 28 23:11:34 <pavelm> balrog: Wrong.
May 28 23:11:40 <SpeedEvil> If it keeps the battery voltage at 4.2V
May 28 23:11:43 <pavelm> balrog: mem is s3, standby is s1.
May 28 23:12:04 <SpeedEvil> rather than as it should - charge it to 4.2, keep it there for 1/2-1 hour, and then let it rest.
May 28 23:12:16 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Hmm. It might... the mode is termed "fast_cccv", which is for "constant current, then constant voltage", I remember.
May 28 23:12:35 <SpeedEvil> Keeping the battery all the time at 4.2V is quite bad for life.
May 28 23:14:39 <wiml> what battery chemistry is this? LiPo?
May 28 23:15:19 <SpeedEvil> Lithium-ion, and Li-Po.
May 28 23:15:19 <Elrond> LiIon
May 28 23:15:38 <SpeedEvil> (the effect happens on)
May 28 23:16:36 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - So what exactly is the right thing to do?
May 28 23:17:03 <SpeedEvil> The right thing to do is to turn off the charger after about 1/2 an hour to an hour after it's hit 4.2V
May 28 23:17:37 <SpeedEvil> (which is the maximum charge voltage - the 'constant voltage' portion of the charge
May 28 23:18:42 <Elrond> Ahh.
May 28 23:19:09 <Elrond> And then fully disconnect it and let the energy flow straight from usb to the parts, that need it?
May 28 23:19:18 <SpeedEvil> Yes. Basically.
May 28 23:19:28 <Elrond> I wonder, if the PMU can do that...
May 28 23:19:48 <Elrond> But it really should be able to.
May 28 23:21:52 <Elrond> I'll look at the kernel sources tomorrow. Maybe we can do the "turn off charging" from userspace after an hour. If that works, I'll see, if the voltage stays constant, or if the whole phone then runs from battery and the usb power is not used for anything.
May 28 23:24:16 <balrog-kun> wow, backing up the original flash contents was easy
May 28 23:24:38 <balrog-kun> i thought i was going to have to implement writing to SD in u-boot for that
May 28 23:25:03 <pavelm> balrog: How do you backup?
May 28 23:25:34 <balrog-kun> pavelm: "netcat -l -p 20000 > mtdblock0" on the host
May 28 23:25:48 <balrog-kun> and "cat /dev/mtdblock0 | nc 192.168.0.1 20000" on the target
May 28 23:26:03 <balrog-kun> repeat for mtdblock(1-4)
May 28 23:28:52 <balrog-kun> together with a copy of the output of "mtdparts" in u-boot (or simply your dmesg) it lets you reproduce the whole flash later
May 28 23:29:42 <pavelm> balrog: Aha, ok. That should go into wiki somewhere :-)
May 28 23:30:11 <balrog-kun> ah, ok, i will do that
May 28 23:30:14 <rwhitby> cat /dev/mtdblock* > backup.bin, then scp backup.bin ?
May 28 23:30:34 <balrog-kun> the thing is where will you store backup.bin?
May 28 23:30:53 <rwhitby> hmm - yeah. I'm used to flash being 8MB on the nslu2 :-)
May 28 23:31:33 <balrog-kun> plus scp didn't work on the stock image, for me
May 28 23:31:54 <balrog-kun> it's the dropbear implementation i think
May 28 23:33:46 <pavelm> okay, so powered-off openmoko is ~.25mA, and running openmoko (screen on) is ~.25A
May 28 23:33:49 <pavelm> (phase 0)
May 28 23:34:13 <pavelm> sleeping openmoko (but screen still on) is ~.125A
May 28 23:34:43 <pavelm> idle cpu vs. busy cpu does not seem to make much difference .. ~.02A
May 28 23:34:50 <SpeedEvil> At 4.?V?
May 28 23:35:11 <miip> what about backlight on/off?
May 28 23:35:32 <SpeedEvil> GPS on and off.
May 28 23:35:50 <pavelm> Ok, maybe 0.04A is the cpu
May 28 23:35:57 <pavelm> Can't play with the backlight. GPS off.
May 28 23:35:57 <balrog-kun> i expected sleeping openmoko would be more efficient
May 28 23:36:04 <pavelm> at 4.1W
May 28 23:36:07 <pavelm> at 4.1V
May 28 23:36:18 <pavelm> balrog: openmoko currently sleeps with backlight on ;-)
May 28 23:36:30 <SpeedEvil> Screen still on is that - asleep?
May 28 23:36:47 <balrog-kun> more efficient compared to full running openmoko (because .125A may be good, but it's only two times less than fuly running)
May 28 23:37:35 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - the CPU sucks in terms of powersaving.
May 28 23:37:50 <SpeedEvil> You can't even put it in slow mode if you want the display to carry on working.
May 28 23:37:59 <balrog-kun> my (ancient) palm PDA survives 2 months in idle, with RAM powered on
May 28 23:38:25 <SpeedEvil> It should last a long time in suspend-RAM
May 28 23:38:27 <balrog-kun> and only 4h fully up
May 28 23:39:15 <Elrond> Part of the problem on the neo is the amplifier. ;-)
May 28 23:39:40 <SpeedEvil> Pulling the speakers should sort that.
May 28 23:39:57 <Elrond> It's connected directly to the battery... (*arg* Thinking about it, IT might drain the battery in runtime).
May 28 23:40:12 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Tell the amplifiier to go off would be easier. ;-)
May 28 23:40:14 <SpeedEvil> Pull the speakers, and it has nothing to really drain to.
May 28 23:40:18 <SpeedEvil> That too.
May 28 23:40:28 <pavelm> elrond: Amplifier?
May 28 23:40:54 <SpeedEvil> The audio amplifier.
May 28 23:40:59 <balrog-kun> gently turning off the amplifier is for sissies
May 28 23:41:03 <balrog-kun> rip out the speakers
May 28 23:41:04 <SpeedEvil> There have been suspicions that it's not properly turned off.
May 28 23:41:21 <pavelm> speed: Phase 0 or phase 1?
May 28 23:41:22 <Elrond> pavelm - stereo amplifier: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/LM4857
May 28 23:41:49 <Elrond> Both, I think.
May 28 23:45:23 <Elrond> !ombug 556
May 28 23:45:25 <cdbot2> * * Bug 556, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown
May 28 23:45:26 <cdbot2> * * openmoko(AT)robertmichel.de: After shutdown (mono) speaker is ticking like an analog watch
May 28 23:45:27 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=556
May 28 23:46:50 <Elrond> and:
May 28 23:46:52 <Elrond> !ombug 482
May 28 23:46:53 <cdbot2> * * Bug 482, Status: NEW, Created: Unknown
May 28 23:46:54 <cdbot2> * * mickey(AT)vanille-media.de: phone still consumes energy when powered off
May 28 23:46:55 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=482
May 28 23:47:39 <Elrond> Not comment #1. This seems to affect p0 and p1.
May 28 23:49:22 <Elrond> s/Not/Note/
May 28 23:49:23 <apt> Elrond meant: Note comment #1. This seems to affect p0 and p1.
May 28 23:50:26 <Elrond> And I guess, the gsm could also drain battery, as it seems to be also connected directly to the battery. :-|
May 28 23:50:46 <wiml> is it maybe not telling the LM4857 to go into low power mode over I2C
May 28 23:51:10 <Elrond> wiml - Probably.
May 28 23:51:41 <Elrond> But it also should do that in standby mode. ;)
May 28 23:52:50 <wiml> yeah
May 28 23:53:34 <pavelm> Ok, for phase 0... it should last 20 hours suspended, with screen off.
May 28 23:53:57 <pavelm> Unfortunately, it will not be able to take calls in this mode :-(. But should be usable as a gps ;-)
May 28 23:54:10 <Elrond> ;o)
May 28 23:54:22 <Elrond> pavelm - BTW: Does the backlight kernel problem also affect Bv04?
May 28 23:54:46 <pavelm> ...actually, it has ~4h of "run" life -- where you can really use the gps.
May 28 23:54:54 <pavelm> elrond: I did not test that.
May 28 23:55:36 <Elrond> pavelm - I suspect that, because I looked at the backlight driver... and there is no Bv03/04 specific bit in it. I do not even understand, why it does not work any more.
May 28 23:56:20 <Elrond> (crazy day... python-->gps does not work, backlight kernel thing looks like "no bug"... Stupid normal work.)
May 28 23:58:07 <pavelm> elrond: phase1 kernel on phase1 openmoko => backlight control works ok. I'd prefer not to flash my phase1 for now -- I'd like to keep it working.
May 28 23:59:21 <Elrond> pavelm - dfu allows to copy the kernel from the phone to the host. :-)
May 28 23:59:36 <Elrond> ... so you could transfer the kernel to the p0. ;)
May 29 00:00:12 <pavelm> p0 is now on ampermeter - different table ;)
May 29 00:00:18 * ar2 hello
May 29 00:00:24 <SpeedEvil> Hello.
May 29 00:00:56 <arw_hal9000> :)
May 29 00:01:02 <balrog-kun> it turns out "cat" + "nc" also allows you to copy the kernel
May 29 00:01:22 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Oh, yeah. :-)
May 29 00:01:30 <Elrond> balrog-kun - Or "ssh cat" ;-)
May 29 00:03:01 <Elrond> Good night people.
May 29 00:04:20 <SpeedEvil> Night.
May 29 00:05:59 <Elrond> Night SpeedEvil :)
May 29 00:07:40 <pavelm> Good night people.
May 29 00:09:48 <balrog-kun> good night
May 29 00:18:57 <dietricha> counter
May 29 00:18:58 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: a day 17:50:29 (1.743 +-1.7 days) (1313;218)
May 29 00:19:54 <arw_hal9000> i make a mistake .. sorry 
May 29 00:20:30 <arw_hal9000> witth the translation http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware_Developer
May 29 00:21:47 <arw_hal9000> i am really sorry :(
May 29 00:23:28 <michaelshiloh> can anyone tell me the name and location of the system logfile on the neo?
May 29 00:23:41 <arw_hal9000> please accept my apologies 
May 29 00:24:03 <arw_hal9000> i write in spanish the openmoko wiki 
May 29 00:24:44 <SpeedEvil> What's the mistake?
May 29 00:26:33 <arw_hal9000> SpeedEvil: here:
May 29 00:26:35 <arw_hal9000> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Hardware_Developer
May 29 00:27:15 <SpeedEvil> Not hard to fix.
May 29 00:27:41 <SpeedEvil> Copy content you want out to a new page. - edit window, then copy
May 29 00:27:59 <SpeedEvil> select the version before your edit in the page history
May 29 00:28:13 <SpeedEvil> now, edit that, and save
May 29 00:28:50 <arw_hal9000> i will be more careful
May 29 00:29:10 <arw_hal9000> ok, thank you SpeedEvil
May 29 00:29:16 <SpeedEvil> :)
May 29 00:29:27 <SpeedEvil> everypne breaks stuff
May 29 00:29:39 <SpeedEvil> contribution is good.
May 29 00:30:10 <arw_hal9000> uff 
May 29 00:31:28 <wiml> yes, wikis are designed to make it easy to recover from mistakes
May 29 00:33:11 <pjz> wikis rock
May 29 00:33:16 <arw_hal9000> :)
May 29 00:33:19 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Hardware_Developer/es]] [[Hardware_Developer]] [[Neo1973_Power_Management]] [[Neo1973_Battery]] [[Wishlist:Text_Input]]
May 29 00:33:30 <pjz> any more news on the HX8D ?
May 29 00:34:17 <pjz> er, HXD8 ?
May 29 00:34:45 <pjz> "hackdate" ?
May 29 01:01:02 <michaelshiloh> It would appear that I can bring up other apps like the calendar and calculator, but if i touch the "dialer" icon nothing happens. any tips?
May 29 01:19:34 <tieutacday> hello 
May 29 01:19:48 <tieutacday> i want chat with a beautiful girl
May 29 01:19:49 <tieutacday> :D
May 29 01:22:37 * SpeedEvil writes up applications:Chat_with_a_beautiful_girl
May 29 01:22:56 <arw_hal9000> :)
May 29 01:23:00 <arw_hal9000> hehehe
May 29 01:23:18 * rwhitby looks in /home for the beautiful girl ;-)
May 29 01:24:36 <SpeedEvil> Ones you find in /usr/share/ are not so good.
May 29 01:29:59 <Mukunda> Is the Neo1973 available now?
May 29 01:30:06 <Mukunda> Oh no still not.
May 29 01:30:08 <Mukunda> Damn.
May 29 01:44:57 <aloril> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%)
May 29 01:44:57 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) 
May 29 02:32:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Neo1973_Hardware/es]]
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Tue May 29 02:59:57 2007