**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Sun Jun 03 02:59:58 2007
Jun 03 05:03:52 <empty_mind> when will "any day" of the topic arrive ?
Jun 03 05:05:08 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, 
Jun 03 05:08:11 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: what are you doing here ?
Jun 03 05:08:20 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, exams are over
Jun 03 05:08:33 <shonuff> hello everybody...
Jun 03 05:09:01 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: great
Jun 03 05:09:06 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: then lets start working ?
Jun 03 05:09:31 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, sure man..i was waiting for you....
Jun 03 05:09:57 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: ok, i will upgrade the build today. I think it should be done by tomorrow
Jun 03 05:10:19 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: so did you study the libraries ?
Jun 03 05:10:22 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, wokay...mine is building right now...
Jun 03 05:10:39 <shonuff> oops...wrong room
Jun 03 05:10:41 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, will do it today...
Jun 03 05:10:43 <Sup3rkiddo> shonuff, :D
Jun 03 05:11:00 <shonuff> 8 )
Jun 03 05:13:03 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, any docs you found..i will brush up with python extensions today
Jun 03 05:18:06 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: i think we should devide the project into sections and devide work among oursleves
Jun 03 05:18:16 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, right
Jun 03 05:19:12 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: i can think of these sections/phases right now 1) improving python runtime to suit 200MHz processor, 2) bindings for moko libs, 3) looking into pygtk
Jun 03 05:19:45 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, i will look into pygtk stuff...i do a bit of gtk in C, and maybe libs as we;;
Jun 03 05:19:47 <Sup3rkiddo> *well
Jun 03 05:20:11 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo: cool then i will look into building python runtime for openmoko
Jun 03 05:20:32 <Sup3rkiddo> empty_mind, righto
Jun 03 05:36:09 <Mandarino> counter
Jun 03 05:36:09 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 15:11:54 (2.633 +-2.6 days) (1386;225)
Jun 03 06:19:02 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2135 10/trunk/src/target/gsm/src/gsmd/usock.c: first implementation (ugly) of operator name query
Jun 03 07:05:44 <aloril2> SpeedEvil: you and others being blocked by "pipa used this IP": maybe 'this IP'=='some openmoko proxy' ? (IIRC some proxy configuration was added, also I think server shows 'wrong' IP (or I'm mixing it with something else)
Jun 03 08:06:55 <kiney_> counter
Jun 03 08:06:55 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 13:56:31 (2.581 +-2.6 days) (1387;225)
Jun 03 08:31:25 <buz> counter
Jun 03 08:31:26 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 13:44:15 (2.572 +-2.6 days) (1388;225)
Jun 03 08:31:29 <buz> ah 
Jun 03 09:08:11 <PBeck> hey :)
Jun 03 09:46:22 * sparq wonders what the mysterious "Good Things" LaF0rge mentioned in his blog post might be...
Jun 03 09:47:06 <buz> the gpu
Jun 03 09:48:33 <sparq> I can think of lots and lots of hardware thingies that would be worth delaying the release, but given how hush-hush they are, I'm guessing it is legal good news.
Jun 03 09:48:42 <koen> I'm curious about the hxd8
Jun 03 09:49:18 <guaqua> the new cpu (or is it only gpu) thingie looks good
Jun 03 09:49:26 <guaqua> video decoding and audio aswell
Jun 03 09:49:34 <sparq> Hmm... Maybe they are negotiating a LGPL firmware for the GSM modem? ^_^
Jun 03 09:50:09 <buz> i would rather see them use sirf isntead of hammerheard
Jun 03 09:50:17 <sparq> I bet if it were just neato new hardware, LaF0rge would just announce what's going on
Jun 03 09:51:15 * sparq roots for 100% GPL/LGPL/BSD firmware
Jun 03 09:51:31 <buz> you simply cant open source that
Jun 03 09:51:41 <buz> you couldnt legally run gsm modems with patched firmware
Jun 03 09:51:55 <sparq> buz: that depends on the hardware implementation
Jun 03 09:52:36 <buz> well if hardware does everything thats problematical, the open firmware probably wont help you very much
Jun 03 09:52:42 <sparq> buz: you can't sell GSM devices that can be easily modified to do illegal things, like eavesdrop on other people's calls.
Jun 03 09:53:05 <sparq> buz: Sure it will -- it will make distributing releases way, way easier. ^_^
Jun 03 09:53:16 <buz> like why?
Jun 03 09:53:16 <sparq> (legally speaking)
Jun 03 09:53:23 <buz> the firmware lives in the modem itself
Jun 03 09:53:29 <buz> a normal release never ever touches that
Jun 03 09:54:36 <buz> ~lart ati
Jun 03 09:54:37 * apt follow's ati with a gauntlet and ... scratch ... HUMILIATION
Jun 03 09:54:48 * buz must flog off his 3 week old laptop
Jun 03 09:54:52 <buz> this drivers are unbearable
Jun 03 09:55:15 <mmp> aloril: counter
Jun 03 09:55:16 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 13:02:20 (2.543 +-2.5 days) (1389;226)
Jun 03 09:55:24 <buz> i was told i wouldnt get aiglx
Jun 03 09:55:33 * sparq -> sleep
Jun 03 09:55:33 <buz> which is true, but nobody warned me that video wouldnt work either
Jun 03 09:55:44 <mmp> buz: what GPU?
Jun 03 09:55:49 <buz> X1400
Jun 03 09:57:02 <buz> now i must find some windows user
Jun 03 09:57:19 <buz> and then buy the same laptop, but with intel (and ship it around half the world)
Jun 03 09:59:22 <mmp> buz: hmm, I can remember that there was something which had to be enabled in xorg.conf in order to get functioning X video overlay with ATI drivers..
Jun 03 09:59:30 <buz> yeah
Jun 03 09:59:34 <buz> with some specific releases
Jun 03 09:59:45 <buz> which then again have other bugs or dont work with your current kernel
Jun 03 10:00:00 * mmp doesn't know, last time it was ubuntu with X300
Jun 03 10:00:09 <mmp> :(
Jun 03 10:02:58 <buz> X300 has open source drivers that sort of work
Jun 03 10:03:18 <buz> now i have a 1200EUR device running vista
Jun 03 10:03:24 <buz> which is kinda useless really
Jun 03 10:20:22 <buz> micard looks like a neat standard
Jun 03 10:21:26 <Bish> any news about OM?
Jun 03 10:21:55 <SpeedEvil> aloril2: not using proxy herre.
Jun 03 10:21:56 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jun 03 10:21:58 <SpeedEvil> there is.
Jun 03 10:22:07 <SpeedEvil> 1K have been made, adn are in QA
Jun 03 10:25:43 <buz> says couple of hundred in the blog post?
Jun 03 10:25:50 <SpeedEvil> oops
Jun 03 10:25:58 <buz> The first generation GTA02 prototypes have also showed up at FIC in Taiwan. More news on that at some later point :)
Jun 03 10:26:02 * SpeedEvil wonders where he got 1k from
Jun 03 10:26:03 <buz> THAT however is a goog thing
Jun 03 10:26:08 <buz> wishful thinking ;)
Jun 03 10:26:16 <SpeedEvil> GTA02 = p1+?
Jun 03 10:26:20 <buz> i think so
Jun 03 11:38:57 <buz> http://linuxdevices.com/articles/AT2190391319.html that might make a neat neo companion
Jun 03 11:58:42 <rwhitby> buz: internal photos of the Zipit: http://www.nslu2-linux.org/gallery/zipit
Jun 03 11:58:50 <rwhitby> [g2] has one
Jun 03 12:00:13 <Hopscotch> is it available outside the us?
Jun 03 12:01:14 * SpeedEvil passes Hopscotch ebay.
Jun 03 12:02:10 <Hopscotch> hmmm
Jun 03 12:02:15 <Hopscotch> i looked on ebay.de...
Jun 03 12:02:19 * Hopscotch tries again
Jun 03 12:02:40 <Hopscotch> zero hits...
Jun 03 12:05:42 <SpeedEvil> odd
Jun 03 12:08:34 <SpeedEvil> Couple sold a couple of weeks ago in US
Jun 03 12:08:37 <SpeedEvil> not a hot item
Jun 03 12:13:06 <Hopscotch> hmmm
Jun 03 12:13:58 <dcordes> is there already a decision about the wifi thing? what chipset will be used?
Jun 03 12:18:04 <kito_> atheros
Jun 03 12:18:14 <guaqua> dcordes: atheros chip. wiki knows. no idea which hardware is it going to be in though..
Jun 03 12:20:32 <ewon> woo, atheros
Jun 03 12:20:40 <ewon> you can do packet injection with atheros :)
Jun 03 12:26:00 <stefan_schmidt> pH5: Sorry for saturday. I was in the CCCB until 5:00 and was a bit braindead and busy on saturday.
Jun 03 12:27:05 <pH5> stefan_schmidt: never mind, me too (except for the CCCB and 5:00 part) :)
Jun 03 12:27:19 <stefan_schmidt> pH5: heh
Jun 03 12:30:43 <kiney_> counter
Jun 03 12:30:43 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 11:44:37 (2.489 +-2.5 days) (1390;226)
Jun 03 12:31:54 <CoreDump|home> morning
Jun 03 12:46:43 <Elrond> pH5, stefan_schmidt - I now start to get bytes from the gps using python. (python is just so much easier when it comes to prototyping ideas on the protocol)
Jun 03 12:47:45 <SpeedEvil> :)
Jun 03 12:48:13 <pH5> Elrond: very good :) have you seen my cold2-ch01.txt and cold2-cmd00-stat.txt in http://linuxtogo.org/~ph5/tmp/gllin ?
Jun 03 12:49:07 <Elrond> pH5 - I have seen a few files there, but didn't yet look too closely at all of them. I played with decode.sh and cold2.log.gz
Jun 03 12:49:12 <pH5> I lack a bit of GPS knowledge to do a better analysis than that :(
Jun 03 12:49:58 <Elrond> I already have some ideas, what's going on there.
Jun 03 12:50:03 <Elrond> But only _very_ basic.
Jun 03 12:50:39 <Elrond> I need to buy/lend/acquire a long usb cable to get the neo next to a window ;o)
Jun 03 12:51:15 <pH5> Heh :)
Jun 03 12:52:02 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: Still the cable problem? Really hard one. :)
Jun 03 12:52:17 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: or a GPS antenna.
Jun 03 12:52:38 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Hmm, the connector for the gps isn't outside, right?
Jun 03 12:52:51 <SpeedEvil> I thought it was on the side.
Jun 03 12:52:53 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: That the only one outside
Jun 03 12:53:01 <SpeedEvil> The GSM connector being next to the battery
Jun 03 12:53:08 <stefan_schmidt> exactly
Jun 03 12:53:15 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2136 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/buttonactions.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: kill topmost window on short press of power button
Jun 03 12:53:28 <Elrond> Huh, next to the battery?!
Jun 03 12:53:36 <SpeedEvil> Ont he back
Jun 03 12:53:44 <SpeedEvil> open the back.
Jun 03 12:53:52 <Elrond> I saw a hole next to one screw on the back.
Jun 03 12:53:55 <SpeedEvil> Then look for a hole above the battery
Jun 03 12:54:06 <pH5> Elrond: I'd love to understand the sat locking mechanism (those 00, 05, 0A / 10, 23, 9D packets) first.
Jun 03 12:54:08 <SpeedEvil> the connector is under the hole.
Jun 03 12:54:30 <pH5> So if you have any speculations about those packets...
Jun 03 12:54:35 <SpeedEvil> Well...
Jun 03 12:55:08 <SpeedEvil> Log of a few hundred locks, with analysis of the bytes sent/recieved might at least give you the range of data
Jun 03 12:55:35 <SpeedEvil> A fake GPS satellite would also be handy.
Jun 03 12:55:46 <guaqua> :D
Jun 03 12:55:56 <SpeedEvil> It's not _that_ hard to make.
Jun 03 12:56:01 <SpeedEvil> But not trivial.
Jun 03 12:56:50 <guaqua> i was just contemplating with the idea of having your own gps satellite with you at all times ;)
Jun 03 12:57:24 <guaqua> or is it at the idea when i use the word contemplate?
Jun 03 12:57:47 <Sufflope> counter
Jun 03 12:57:47 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 11:31:04 (2.480 +-2.5 days) (1391;226)
Jun 03 12:58:22 <guaqua> no preposition i assume
Jun 03 12:58:47 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - http://www.flickr.com/photo_zoom.gne?id=412600520&size=l&context=set-72157594573486523  You mean the white thingy at the right buttom, just above the speaker?
Jun 03 12:59:32 <Elrond> pH5 - I wonder, if one can break anything by sending random bytes to the gps chip. ;o)
Jun 03 13:00:08 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Disassembling_Neo1973
Jun 03 13:00:16 <SpeedEvil> Elrond
Jun 03 13:00:23 <SpeedEvil> search on gsm
Jun 03 13:00:33 <Elrond> Okay... *doing*
Jun 03 13:02:35 <mickey|berlin> yay
Jun 03 13:03:28 <Elrond> Ahhh. So yes, it's the white thingy on koen's pic... and the thing Rince noticed yesterday. ;-)
Jun 03 13:04:02 <Elrond> Hi mickey|berlin ! :-)
Jun 03 13:04:29 <Elrond> Ahh, BTW: GPN yesterday was nice. A few people were playing with the neo. ;-)
Jun 03 13:05:06 <pH5> hi mickey|berlin, just wanted to say that I liked that linuxtag talk.
Jun 03 13:05:42 <stefan_schmidt> http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8663.JPG.html
Jun 03 13:05:44 <mickey|berlin> thanks very much :(
Jun 03 13:05:46 <mickey|berlin> argh
Jun 03 13:05:47 <mickey|berlin> :)
Jun 03 13:05:54 <mickey|berlin> heh
Jun 03 13:06:37 <koen> gta02 looks nice
Jun 03 13:06:54 <mickey|berlin> yeah
Jun 03 13:07:00 <stefan_schmidt> koen: we hope so. Not making the same mistakes again.:)
Jun 03 13:07:24 <koen> like using UPS to deliver the phones ;)
Jun 03 13:07:28 <pH5> heh
Jun 03 13:07:37 <Elrond> GTA02?
Jun 03 13:07:57 <koen> Elrond: http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
Jun 03 13:08:01 <Elrond> ... is GTA02's gsm module now connected to the PMU, so that we have full control over the GSM?
Jun 03 13:08:42 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: yes
Jun 03 13:09:00 <stefan_schmidt> Elrond: We can fully shutdown GSM
Jun 03 13:09:19 <mickey|berlin> that, and we can finally measure the current
Jun 03 13:09:27 <mickey|berlin> no more uncontrolled sucking from the battery
Jun 03 13:09:42 <mickey|berlin> at least we know how much pwr we consume then
Jun 03 13:09:44 <Elrond> Ahh, good.
Jun 03 13:09:57 <Elrond> Any info on prices yet?
Jun 03 13:10:12 * mickey|berlin R&D
Jun 03 13:10:15 <mickey|berlin> no idea
Jun 03 13:10:22 <CoreDump|home> OMG
Jun 03 13:10:33 <CoreDump|home> gta02 looks bloody awsome
Jun 03 13:11:14 * koen starts saving openmoko bugfixes for the next developer program
Jun 03 13:11:33 <guaqua> what's beschleunigungssensor?
Jun 03 13:11:38 <mickey|berlin> accellerometer
Jun 03 13:12:19 * CoreDump|home starts saving money
Jun 03 13:12:46 <g8cordes> CoreDump|home, gta2? is that the next revision?
Jun 03 13:12:55 <stefan_schmidt> g8cordes: P2
Jun 03 13:13:11 <CoreDump|home> g8cordes: check the URL from above
Jun 03 13:13:43 <g8cordes> CoreDump|home, ok. any gspca news :D ?
Jun 03 13:14:04 <CoreDump|home> not to my knowledge
Jun 03 13:14:22 <g8cordes> did you try to test it with something else but mplayer?
Jun 03 13:15:04 <guaqua> hmm
Jun 03 13:15:42 <guaqua> gta-02 is P2, in other words the mass market model that was planned to be released in september?
Jun 03 13:16:27 <pH5> yes
Jun 03 13:16:46 <empty_mind> Sup3rkiddo, 
Jun 03 13:16:54 <guaqua> gta-01 is the one they've made 1k of?
Jun 03 13:17:14 <empty_mind> 1K of what ?
Jun 03 13:17:18 <guaqua> phones
Jun 03 13:17:19 <empty_mind> 1k units ?
Jun 03 13:17:22 <guaqua> yes
Jun 03 13:17:28 <empty_mind> oops
Jun 03 13:17:33 <Elrond> I thought 500?
Jun 03 13:17:36 <empty_mind> with wifi or without ?
Jun 03 13:17:48 <guaqua> Elrond: whatever they just did :)
Jun 03 13:17:48 <Elrond> empty_mind - GTA01 == no wifi, GTA02 == wifi
Jun 03 13:17:51 <empty_mind> then it should be cheaper than $350
Jun 03 13:17:59 <empty_mind> ok
Jun 03 13:18:11 <empty_mind> and gta02 is the one which is going to hit mass market ?
Jun 03 13:18:21 <Elrond> empty_mind - AFAIK, yes.
Jun 03 13:18:37 <empty_mind> grrr... sales guys
Jun 03 13:18:44 <guaqua> i wonder what one could do with accelometers
Jun 03 13:19:04 <empty_mind> and they wil not give us any discount on gta02 ?
Jun 03 13:19:08 <Tronic> GPS (SiRFStar3) would be nice.
Jun 03 13:19:19 <empty_mind> i mean the guys who buy gta01
Jun 03 13:19:40 <Elrond> empty_mind - I think, there was some discount planned.
Jun 03 13:19:48 <empty_mind> Tronic, if they give SirfStar3, then i would flydown to taiwan to make mass purchase
Jun 03 13:20:01 <Elrond> Tronic - Well, I guess, we're currently locked to this hammerhead thing.
Jun 03 13:20:11 <empty_mind> i hope they reduce the price for gta01 since theya re producing in volume now
Jun 03 13:20:36 <SpeedEvil> Sirf is actually possibly less well performing than a good driver.
Jun 03 13:20:37 <Elrond> empty_mind - I doubt it. The price was planned for the mass produced thingy.
Jun 03 13:20:50 <SpeedEvil> For the existing GPS
Jun 03 13:21:03 <empty_mind> SpeedEvil, explain 
Jun 03 13:21:22 <SpeedEvil> The hammerhead can lock in very, very short periods.
Jun 03 13:21:34 <SpeedEvil> As it's got a massively parallel correlator in it.
Jun 03 13:21:43 <ewon> I presume this is due to the assisted nature?
Jun 03 13:21:52 <SpeedEvil> No, nothing to do with it.
Jun 03 13:21:53 <ewon> I thought the Sirf-III was the fastest gun in the west :)
Jun 03 13:22:09 <Elrond> ewon - Just ignore assistance. That's basicly marketing hype.
Jun 03 13:22:18 <SpeedEvil> The hammerhead is specced to 1s position of 5m
Jun 03 13:22:33 <empty_mind> oh you meant hammerhead chipset
Jun 03 13:23:12 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - I still doubt that. To calc a position, you need the ephemeris. So the 1s is a non-cold lock, right?
Jun 03 13:23:31 <SpeedEvil> You need the ephemeris, yes.
Jun 03 13:24:00 <SpeedEvil> That just means you've got to have either downloaded the couple of K of data from the internet, or have had 12 min of GPS on in the last few weeks.
Jun 03 13:24:31 <Elrond> 12 min gives you the almanac.
Jun 03 13:24:34 <SpeedEvil> yeah.
Jun 03 13:24:45 <Elrond> I think, one min gives you the ephemeris, which is enough for short time.
Jun 03 13:24:51 <SpeedEvil> 30s
Jun 03 13:25:30 <SpeedEvil> 1s is warmish, yes.
Jun 03 13:25:47 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Do you know by accident, if every satelite sends the _full_ ephemeris (for all sats), or just for its own orbit?
Jun 03 13:26:02 <SpeedEvil> As I understand it, all send all.
Jun 03 13:26:07 <empty_mind> does choice of sattelite/chipset make any difference according to your location in globe ?
Jun 03 13:26:12 <SpeedEvil> err - I mean almanac
Jun 03 13:26:23 <empty_mind> i mean will sirf perform better in west than in east
Jun 03 13:26:24 <SpeedEvil> empty_mind: not simply
Jun 03 13:26:35 <SpeedEvil> there is no west or east
Jun 03 13:26:41 <SpeedEvil> north and south - somewhat
Jun 03 13:26:43 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Yeah, every sat sends the whole almanac. I wonder for the ephemeris.
Jun 03 13:26:44 <empty_mind> ok
Jun 03 13:26:55 <empty_mind> so me being in antractica will make a difference
Jun 03 13:27:13 <empty_mind> but me being anywhere on equator will not
Jun 03 13:27:36 <SpeedEvil> In antarctica, the satellites will all be low in the sky
Jun 03 13:27:39 <Elrond> empty_mind - Right.
Jun 03 13:27:43 <SpeedEvil> and easily obscured by trees
Jun 03 13:27:56 <ewon> in antarctica?
Jun 03 13:27:59 <pH5> yeah, damn trees in antarctica
Jun 03 13:28:03 <ewon> :)
Jun 03 13:28:04 <empty_mind> ok, so i need to cut trees in antartica before using gps :-)
Jun 03 13:28:07 <SpeedEvil> s/trees/polar bears.
Jun 03 13:28:15 <pH5> penguins!
Jun 03 13:28:21 <SpeedEvil> Yeti!
Jun 03 13:28:40 <guaqua> yeti is himalaya, let's keep to the facts ;)
Jun 03 13:29:18 <Elrond> Use the teleporter, which is included in gta03 ;o)
Jun 03 13:30:40 <Elrond> root@phone:~/sounds$ madplay notify_doorbell.mp3 
Jun 03 13:30:47 <Elrond> Hmm, that one sounds nice. :-)
Jun 03 13:30:49 <empty_mind> oh and i thought gta03 only sports a faster processor :-0
Jun 03 13:31:41 <Shoragan> gta02 already has a faster processor (400MHz)
Jun 03 13:32:05 <xl0> Is gta02 as big as 01?
Jun 03 13:32:26 <empty_mind> Shoragan, really, i thought that was in gta02 or as told by Sean in his presentation in bangalore
Jun 03 13:33:02 <empty_mind> s/gta03/gta02
Jun 03 13:33:27 <empty_mind> sean told us that 400Mhz processor wil be introduced next year
Jun 03 13:33:38 <Elrond> ALL: My sentence about GTA03 was fun!
Jun 03 13:34:23 <stefan_schmidt> xl0: Yes, same case
Jun 03 13:34:52 <empty_mind> how can someone sponsor a device for me ?
Jun 03 13:34:59 <Shoragan> http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
Jun 03 13:35:11 <Shoragan> this is from mickeys talk at linuxtag
Jun 03 13:35:58 <mjr> empty_mind, anyone can, if you talk them into giving you $350
Jun 03 13:36:16 <empty_mind> wow
Jun 03 13:37:04 <Vegar> oh
Jun 03 13:37:07 <mjr> what's "Beschleunigungssensoren"? Orientation sensor?
Jun 03 13:37:21 <Vegar> that bottom list, is that P2?
Jun 03 13:37:22 <xl0> After looking at some photos, it seems like the thing is fun to hack, but too big to use as a phone. ;)
Jun 03 13:37:44 <mjr> xl0, piffles
Jun 03 13:37:49 <empty_mind> xl0, nope, i have seen the real device, it aint that big
Jun 03 13:37:55 <Shoragan> mjr, i've translated it in the comments
Jun 03 13:38:04 <Elrond> mjr - accelarometer.
Jun 03 13:38:11 <empty_mind> xl0, it is as big as any device
Jun 03 13:38:13 <xl0> But yes, you are right, you can't use it as a phone yet, so the size is no real problem ;)
Jun 03 13:38:17 <mjr> Elrond, righto
Jun 03 13:38:26 <Kensan> Are those slides available for download somewhere?
Jun 03 13:38:46 * pH5 would like a slightly smaller version with an integrated keyboard
Jun 03 13:40:35 <Elrond> pH5 - Yeah, rugged, lower resolution display. :-)
Jun 03 13:40:45 <xl0> empty_mind: I agree that there are devices as big, and even bigger than this one, but still it would be nice if it could be smaller.
Jun 03 13:40:47 <Elrond> 3 weeks standby ;o)
Jun 03 13:41:07 <Rince> re
Jun 03 13:41:15 <Elrond> xl0 - It can't be smaller with a touchscreen.
Jun 03 13:41:27 <empty_mind> xl0, well it is not as big as most of the smart phones
Jun 03 13:41:58 <dottedmag> Elrond: yes, especially both handles contain parts of touchscreen ;)
Jun 03 13:42:06 <empty_mind> xl0, atlast it happens to be a touchscreen so you obviously need a big screen, a smaller phone will compromise functionality
Jun 03 13:42:50 <empty_mind> xl0, it is smaller than devices like ipaq or nokia communicator but still usefull
Jun 03 13:42:55 <mjr> xl0, you're just compensating for your larger than usual member by wanting a still smaller phone; the size is quite okay in real life
Jun 03 13:43:19 <empty_mind> xl0, if you have seen motorola A768i , its almost that big, but ahs a bigger lcd
Jun 03 13:44:12 <dottedmag> Elrond: isn't it possible to get such ratio of touchscreen/whole are, say, in iPaq 1940? 
Jun 03 13:45:20 <empty_mind> hey, nobody proposed an fm tuner in neo1973 ?
Jun 03 13:45:29 <xl0> Ok, maybe the screen limits it, but it could be slimmer, and the screen does not take all the space anyway, there is a lot to cut from the top and bottom...
Jun 03 13:45:40 <Elrond> dottedmag - I never saw an ipaq, so no idea.
Jun 03 13:45:50 <dottedmag> s/are/area/
Jun 03 13:45:50 <apt> dottedmag meant: Elrond: isn't it possible to get such ratio of touchscreen/whole area, say, in iPaq 1940? 
Jun 03 13:45:51 <dottedmag> Elrond: http://www.ixbt.com/portopc/pda/hp/1940/19401.jpg
Jun 03 13:46:15 <empty_mind> xl0, yes it could be slimmer and if they start shipping expensive slim batteries then it would be definately slimer
Jun 03 13:46:57 <Elrond> dottedmag - Yeah, maybe.
Jun 03 13:47:32 <Elrond> Right. But $350 is already a lot of money for a toy. ;-)
Jun 03 13:47:39 <Elrond> ... or for "just a phone" ;)
Jun 03 13:47:48 <mickey|berlin> fm tuner? nah, http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/02/07/fed-up-with-legacy-radio/
Jun 03 13:48:09 <Rince> Elrond: ask the PS3-owner about princes ;)
Jun 03 13:48:09 <xl0> dottedmag: Hi. Any news about getting the phone here in Russia?
Jun 03 13:48:15 <dottedmag> xl0: nope
Jun 03 13:48:26 <Elrond> Rince - Huh?!
Jun 03 13:48:30 <empty_mind> mickey|berlin, 
Jun 03 13:48:51 <dottedmag> xl0: I'd probably ask somebody in Germany/USA to bring it here.
Jun 03 13:49:28 <empty_mind> mickey|berlin, local fm radio stations are still very popular in asia
Jun 03 13:49:46 <Rince> Elrond: Playstation 3 is 599¤. Just for a toy
Jun 03 13:49:58 <dottedmag> xl0: anyway I will wait for gta02 ;)
Jun 03 13:50:21 <Elrond> Rince - Ahh. ;-)
Jun 03 13:50:26 <xl0> dottedmag: And miss all the fun? ;)
Jun 03 13:50:29 <empty_mind> dottedmag, me too, unless they provide heavy discount to gta01 owners
Jun 03 13:50:33 <dottedmag> Kensan: 
Jun 03 13:50:35 <Elrond> Rince - Well, I don't buy such things. ;-)
Jun 03 13:50:37 <dottedmag> xl0: no wifi - no fun ;)
Jun 03 13:52:45 <Shoragan> 350$ is not much for an unsubsidized phone with these specs
Jun 03 13:57:21 <SpeedEvil> empty_mind: I'm fairly sure it's mentioned in wishlist:hardware
Jun 03 13:58:01 <guaqua> empty_mind: us and european channels also use different frequencies
Jun 03 13:58:15 <SpeedEvil> Not really
Jun 03 13:58:17 <guaqua> you might have to get different chips for the phones
Jun 03 13:58:23 <SpeedEvil> it's just a channel spacing thing for FM
Jun 03 13:58:33 <guaqua> and that can be a problem
Jun 03 13:58:36 <SpeedEvil> and all the chipsets can do it.
Jun 03 13:58:47 <guaqua> the same devices just don't work in most cases :(
Jun 03 13:59:47 <empty_mind> SpeedEvil, wishlist mentions fm tranmitter not receiver
Jun 03 14:00:51 <guaqua> the feature list looks pretty nice already
Jun 03 14:01:09 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#TV.2Fradio_receiver
Jun 03 14:01:17 <empty_mind> i would love FIC to manufacture a bluetooth keyboard
Jun 03 14:01:29 <SpeedEvil> Why?
Jun 03 14:01:32 <SpeedEvil> there are lots
Jun 03 14:01:45 <empty_mind> will they work with neo?
Jun 03 14:01:49 <SpeedEvil> Sure.
Jun 03 14:01:49 <g8cordes> empty_mind, sure
Jun 03 14:01:51 <mickey|berlin> sure
Jun 03 14:01:52 <ewon> surely such a beast exists already
Jun 03 14:01:53 <g8cordes> sure
Jun 03 14:01:53 <mickey|berlin> BT HID 
Jun 03 14:02:33 <guaqua> is someone using bt keyboard with neo?
Jun 03 14:02:55 <guaqua> if so, how does it feel...is it fast to type etc?
Jun 03 14:03:06 <guaqua> thinking about using experience
Jun 03 14:04:02 <g8cordes> guaqua, what do you mean by fast typing? 
Jun 03 14:05:09 <[fhs]unique> #monodevelop
Jun 03 14:05:21 <[fhs]unique> sry wrong window
Jun 03 14:06:07 <guaqua> g8cordes: as in is there a delay after a keypress and is it hard to set up and so on
Jun 03 14:06:28 <g8cordes> it should be as quick as a normal keyboard
Jun 03 14:06:51 <g8cordes> and I don't think it should be any hard to set it up
Jun 03 14:07:00 <g8cordes> since it is just a normal bt hid device
Jun 03 14:45:10 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Main_Page/it]]
Jun 03 14:46:04 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2137 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/openmoko-panel-mainmenu.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: temp. hack to play a startup sound
Jun 03 14:46:57 <wansti> "hack to play a startup sound" <-- yay :-D
Jun 03 14:47:59 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2138 10/trunk/oe/packages/alsa/ (alsa-state_svn.bb files/stereoout.state): oe/alsa: bump default stereoout volume
Jun 03 14:50:22 <SrRaven> !counter
Jun 03 14:50:28 <SrRaven> -counter
Jun 03 14:50:33 <SrRaven> meh
Jun 03 14:50:34 <CoreDump|home> g8cordes: no setup needed at all. A BT "keyboard" is working out-of-the-box w/ neo here
Jun 03 14:50:45 <CoreDump|home> counter
Jun 03 14:50:46 <aloril> counter not yet updated, see laforge's busy entry at http://planet.openmoko.org P1: 2 days 10:34:35 (2.441 +-2.4 days) (1392;227)
Jun 03 14:55:36 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2139 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/openmoko-panel-mainmenu.c: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: remove startup sound. will be included in session startup script
Jun 03 14:59:01 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2140 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/ (files/session openmoko-session_svn.bb): oe/openmoko-base: configure soundcard and play startup sound from /etc/matchbox/session
Jun 03 15:00:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2141 10/trunk/oe/packages/gsm/ (files/gsmd libgsmd_svn.bb): oe/gsm: remove configuring soundcard from gsm script
Jun 03 15:03:48 <elcarni> hello
Jun 03 15:08:01 <buz> Phase 2 (GTA-02) will feature:
Jun 03 15:08:01 <buz> -a 2D/3D-Graphics Accelerator
Jun 03 15:08:01 <buz> -256MByte of Flash Memory
Jun 03 15:08:01 <buz> -WiFi
Jun 03 15:08:01 <buz> -updated battery: 1700mAh
Jun 03 15:08:03 <buz> wooooot
Jun 03 15:08:13 <buz> 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it.
Jun 03 15:08:38 <buz> 2 Accelerometers. F**k yeah. Looking forward to it.
Jun 03 15:08:40 <buz> oopos
Jun 03 15:08:42 <buz> wrong buffer
Jun 03 15:08:49 <buz> http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
Jun 03 15:09:34 <CoreDump|home> heh
Jun 03 15:09:59 <buz> so p2 uses calypso too?
Jun 03 15:10:10 <buz> or we dont know?
Jun 03 15:10:17 <xl0> Why do we need two accelerometers? (Actually, why do we need any at all?)
Jun 03 15:10:30 <buz> because accelerometers are the new $thing
Jun 03 15:10:40 <xl0> orly?
Jun 03 15:10:46 <buz> witness wii, iphone
Jun 03 15:10:55 <xl0> ;)
Jun 03 15:11:04 <buz> unless they come up with some bad ass discount, i'm so gonna wait
Jun 03 15:11:22 <wansti> i wanna play neverball on my neo :-P
Jun 03 15:11:37 <buz> think about pong
Jun 03 15:12:05 <buz> didnt know about neverball but that looks sweet
Jun 03 15:12:17 <buz> could work
Jun 03 15:12:22 * buz apt-gets 
Jun 03 15:12:27 <wansti> heh :-)
Jun 03 15:12:49 <mjr> my coworker had neverball controlled by his thinkpad's tilt sensor
Jun 03 15:13:21 <wansti> mjr: i think alphaone wrote the code for that :-)
Jun 03 15:13:43 <mjr> yah, dunno, he didn't write the code himself
Jun 03 15:14:15 <baze> cool, p2 has accelerometers?
Jun 03 15:14:26 <buz> mjr: neat
Jun 03 15:14:30 <buz> i might try that 
Jun 03 15:14:39 <buz> (if i can somehow get the hd to shutdown permanently)
Jun 03 15:16:14 <elcarni> excuse me, got a question, is it possible to emulate gta-02 with qemu?
Jun 03 15:16:14 <aloril> elcarni: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 03 15:19:26 <Shoragan> elcarni, the hardware is not very different
Jun 03 15:19:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03stefan * r2142 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/files/session: 
Jun 03 15:19:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: * Move startup sound to a later position. Makes no sense to hear the sound while
Jun 03 15:19:30 <CIA-24> openmoko:  still on X start.
Jun 03 15:20:07 <Shoragan> and there is no qemu implementation of the wiki or 2d/3d accelerator
Jun 03 15:20:52 <elcarni> more precisely: can i just edit the first line of build/conf/local.conf: MACHINE = "fic-gta01" to "fic-gta02"
Jun 03 15:21:58 <Shoragan> elcarni, what for? there is no software specific for 02 yet
Jun 03 15:22:59 <elcarni> oh alright then
Jun 03 15:23:12 <aloril2> SpeedEvil: I meant proxy at openmoko side to speed up access
Jun 03 15:25:31 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03wansti * r2143 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ (7 files): Added two very simple, standard ringtones
Jun 03 15:27:24 <wansti> the first one is really just that standard ringtone melody you hear everywhere... i just wonder whether someone copyrighted that...
Jun 03 15:27:56 <mjr> probably
Jun 03 15:29:12 <wansti> so you think i should remove it?
Jun 03 15:29:49 * buz wants to preorder gta-02 
Jun 03 15:29:50 <buz> SCNR
Jun 03 15:29:55 <mjr> I think one should err on the side of caution, if one doesn't know for sure
Jun 03 15:30:54 <wansti> yeah you're right... wouldn't want to get in trouble over a series of four notes :-)
Jun 03 15:32:44 * pH5 is looking forward to the FIC elevator bell ringtone
Jun 03 15:32:56 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03wansti * r2144 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/ (4 files): Removed simple ringtone #1 (might be copyrighted)
Jun 03 15:34:07 <DukeOfURL> is "Beschleunigungssensoren" an accelerometer?
Jun 03 15:34:18 <guaqua> yes
Jun 03 15:34:24 <DukeOfURL> lovely
Jun 03 15:35:10 <jeddy3> when is gta-02, the same as p2, or next-gen neo?
Jun 03 15:35:18 <DukeOfURL> was anything said about a camera?
Jun 03 15:35:27 <mjr> should've really guessed from the 2/3D Beschleuniger :)
Jun 03 15:35:43 <guaqua> mjr: yeah :)
Jun 03 15:35:46 <DukeOfURL> graphics accelerator?
Jun 03 15:36:02 <mjr> jeddy3, p2
Jun 03 15:36:31 <jeddy3> mjr, ok, and when is that? :)
Jun 03 15:36:46 <jeddy3> mass-market?
Jun 03 15:37:33 <Shoragan> jeddy3, when it's done :)
Jun 03 15:37:43 <guaqua> mjr: which phase are you thinking of getting?
Jun 03 15:37:47 <guaqua> or device?
Jun 03 15:38:02 <jeddy3> Shoragan, yes ofcourse, but when is it planned?
Jun 03 15:39:08 <Shoragan> the official word is September (see topic)
Jun 03 15:39:15 <mjr> I was going to get in on the ground floor with p1 and upgrading when p2 hardware is available, and probably still will
Jun 03 15:39:18 <SpeedEvil> The word is old.
Jun 03 15:40:15 <jeddy3> Shoragan, ok thanks
Jun 03 15:40:15 <Shoragan> yes, but they have not announced a new roadmap yet
Jun 03 15:41:23 <Shoragan> it also depends on how far we get with the software when more hackers have a p1
Jun 03 15:42:37 <buz> i think it's pretty weird to release information like they did this time
Jun 03 15:44:01 <Shoragan> buz, why weird?
Jun 03 15:49:08 <SpeedEvil> leaks, not actual information.
Jun 03 15:49:39 <SpeedEvil> A half-a-page email to the announce list, for example.
Jun 03 15:52:02 * DukeOfURL wondering how much space the 1700mAh battery will occupy
Jun 03 15:54:39 <mjr> hmm, wouldn't call it a leak as such if it was presented at LinuxTag, but yeah
Jun 03 15:54:55 <SpeedEvil> Oh - I diddn't see that it was.
Jun 03 15:55:10 <mjr> I assumed as much from the slide
Jun 03 15:55:19 <mjr> since it said "LinuxTag 07"
Jun 03 15:55:25 <mjr> don't know for sure
Jun 03 15:56:44 <miip_> slide? where? :)
Jun 03 15:57:21 <mjr> that slide: http://sicherheitsschwankung.de/gallery/v/openmoko/IMG_8662-slide.JPG.html
Jun 03 15:57:27 <miip_> thx
Jun 03 15:58:17 <DukeOfURL> My Garmin GPS receiver isn't registering any satellites.  Is anyone else having problems with GPS?  Same thing happened on 9/11.
Jun 03 15:58:28 * SpeedEvil checsk
Jun 03 15:59:35 * parag0n checks bbc news
Jun 03 15:59:53 * DukeOfURL checks CNN
Jun 03 16:00:03 <SpeedEvil> works for me 
Jun 03 16:00:05 <SpeedEvil> (uk)
Jun 03 16:00:14 <DukeOfURL> hmmm
Jun 03 16:00:20 <SpeedEvil> You may be having a local interference problem
Jun 03 16:00:29 <DukeOfURL> prolly
Jun 03 16:00:32 <SpeedEvil> google gps notam
Jun 03 16:00:48 <SpeedEvil> The amount of energy you need to black out GPS over a small area is small.
Jun 03 16:01:05 <SpeedEvil> A watt gets you 50Km radius IIRC.
Jun 03 16:01:21 <parag0n> really? hmm >:)
Jun 03 16:02:00 <SpeedEvil> The transmitters are 50W
Jun 03 16:02:16 <SpeedEvil> The coding gain is 1024 - for an equivalent of 50Kw.
Jun 03 16:02:26 <SpeedEvil> This is to cover an entire hemisphere.
Jun 03 16:08:38 <SpeedEvil> Ah - found old sums.
Jun 03 16:09:17 <SpeedEvil> A meaconer, run off a large memory card playing back simulated satellite signals, with 3W gives you 20-60Km radius.
Jun 03 16:16:49 <DukeOfURL> This interference would not be good while flying an ILS approach to 50' minimums...
Jun 03 16:24:01 <neostrider> so, my friends...the neo is going to be released on retail stores?
Jun 03 16:24:14 <SpeedEvil> Eventually.
Jun 03 16:24:17 <SpeedEvil> Ideally.
Jun 03 16:24:19 <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
Jun 03 16:24:27 <SpeedEvil> When?
Jun 03 16:24:41 <SpeedEvil> If?
Jun 03 16:25:07 <neostrider> will be a neo? =-P
Jun 03 16:25:12 <neostrider> just kidding
Jun 03 16:25:23 <neostrider> I think the openmoko and great potencial...
Jun 03 16:25:27 <SpeedEvil> With the initial January-Sep dev time.
Jun 03 16:26:05 <SpeedEvil> I think it was quite likely - as come 3 months before sep - when purchasing decisions may be made - there will be something close to a usable phone to show execs.
Jun 03 16:26:14 <SpeedEvil> But, now.
Jun 03 16:26:41 <parag0n> i assume it'll be released january 08
Jun 03 16:26:45 <SpeedEvil> Software is going to be a real stretch to get ready, and it's not likely to be in a state where a release could be considered much before that release.
Jun 03 16:26:49 <neostrider> (how about pricing? specially on canada?)
Jun 03 16:26:53 <SpeedEvil> Who knows.
Jun 03 16:27:11 <SpeedEvil> 2000l of maple syrup?
Jun 03 16:27:18 <neostrider> state os software, for me, its not a issue...people actually enjoy Windows!
Jun 03 16:27:23 <neostrider> hahhaha
Jun 03 16:27:27 <neostrider> great!
Jun 03 16:27:52 <SpeedEvil> State of software is important for people making decisions to stock in their shops.
Jun 03 16:27:59 <SpeedEvil> With users that will come back to them.
Jun 03 16:28:11 <neostrider> if is there a way of reflash, state of software is not a problem (unless its so unrealible that it bricks the device after a week usage)
Jun 03 16:28:32 <neostrider> well
Jun 03 16:28:32 <neostrider> BRB
Jun 03 16:28:39 <neostrider> lunch time here in Brazil
Jun 03 16:32:03 <mmp> hmm, he did not seem to consider that this is phone, which _has_ to work for some people, not just PC, which tends to "break itself" time to time...
Jun 03 16:32:26 <SpeedEvil> Some phones are regrettably of the second sort.
Jun 03 16:32:53 <mmp> Ok, let's take it from physicist point of view and create a model of "ideal mobile phone" :)
Jun 03 16:33:23 <SpeedEvil> Spherical of course.
Jun 03 16:33:36 <mmp> (that means, it has all properties what mobile should have, it just doesn't exist in reality:)
Jun 03 16:35:07 <mmp> But any way, I guess it will be really hard work which will take place during summer on openmoko software.
Jun 03 16:45:03 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Neo1973]]
Jun 03 16:47:17 <hena> hi
Jun 03 17:03:23 <aloril2> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%)
Jun 03 17:03:23 <aloril> aloril2 changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) 
Jun 03 17:04:26 <Elrond> counter
Jun 03 17:04:26 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week, 2 days 18:55:30 (9.789 +-6.0 days) (1392;222)
Jun 03 17:05:01 <Elrond> aloril2 - Is a week really sensible? Or do you read "second week of June" as "next week"?
Jun 03 17:05:26 <aloril2> upper limit is at 2007-06-18
Jun 03 17:06:00 <aloril2> lower limit might be too low though
Jun 03 17:06:02 <SpeedEvil> 'throughout the second week of June' implies a process going on through that time period.
Jun 03 17:06:45 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - Right. The interesting question is, which week that is. 4-8 or 11-15.
Jun 03 17:07:18 <aloril2> SpeedEvil: when I log in, it does show 'wrong' IP for me (resolves to openmoko.xelerance.com)
Jun 03 17:08:00 <aloril2> counter doesn't cover whole 4-8, only part, but should cover whole 11-15 one (and few extra days)
Jun 03 17:08:19 <aloril2> counter page covers 'before' counter part, maybe that 10% is too high  ..
Jun 03 17:08:43 <Vegar> you should use the ± character in the counter
Jun 03 17:11:37 <aloril2> Vegar: hmm.. would that show right in every client?
Jun 03 17:11:55 <Vegar> dunno
Jun 03 17:12:01 <Vegar> make it UTF8
Jun 03 17:12:14 <SpeedEvil> Not all clients do UTF8
Jun 03 17:12:31 <Vegar> name one that doesn't
Jun 03 17:12:38 <SpeedEvil> BitchX
Jun 03 17:13:12 <Vegar> bitchx uses whatever the terminal is using
Jun 03 17:13:38 <hena> well, i think you shouldn't live by every crappy client anyway, even tho i preferred bx for a long time
Jun 03 17:13:49 <Vegar> doesn't it?
Jun 03 17:14:05 <hena> should, but i have no idea
Jun 03 17:14:36 <mjr> Vegar, I don't think it can handle variable width characters properly
Jun 03 17:14:36 <hena> should use iconv atleast
Jun 03 17:14:45 <Vegar> ah
Jun 03 17:14:50 <mjr> for text editing and layout
Jun 03 17:14:58 <mjr> irssi ♡ 
Jun 03 17:15:13 <Vegar> even mirc supports UTF8 now
Jun 03 17:15:38 <mjr> yeah, at long last
Jun 03 17:17:17 <hena> and since bx isn't even developed anymore, i don't see a point in supporting it that strictly
Jun 03 17:17:57 <CoreDump|home>  ♡ Xchat
Jun 03 17:18:10 <LuitvD> buh, i hate it
Jun 03 17:18:14 * mjr doesn't mind +-, but using utf-8 nowadays should be free game
Jun 03 17:18:33 <hena> agree
Jun 03 17:18:43 <Vegar> at least it should say +/-
Jun 03 17:20:38 <aloril2> mjr: so /charset ISO-8859-15 is not needed on Finnish channel anymore? all use now UTF-8? (now that mirc supports it)
Jun 03 17:21:10 <mjr> one can't make categorical statements like that
Jun 03 17:21:19 <mjr> there are some old fart channels where you'll get bitching
Jun 03 17:21:48 <hena> and it's a completely different issue, whether people use it or not
Jun 03 17:22:04 <hena> there's always people who's religion is to be against anything
Jun 03 17:22:10 <mjr> yeah
Jun 03 17:27:08 <aloril2> counter
Jun 03 17:27:09 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week, 2 days 18:32:47 (9.773±6.0 days) (1393;222)
Jun 03 17:27:28 <aloril2> looks OK?
Jun 03 17:28:31 <hena> how strict are they on selling those development phones?
Jun 03 17:28:43 <aloril2> faq?
Jun 03 17:28:43 <aloril> See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ
Jun 03 17:28:49 <hena> sry
Jun 03 17:29:00 <aloril2> np
Jun 03 17:29:04 <mjr> hena, not at all, just that sales have been delayed
Jun 03 17:29:42 <buz> aloril: maybe you should say thats kinda limited supply
Jun 03 17:30:12 <aloril2> yeah, probably going to sell out, but they will ramp up production though (at least that has been plan)
Jun 03 17:30:35 * aloril2 wonders how far GTA02 is from actual production (at least month, but could be 2-3 months)
Jun 03 17:31:07 <hena> prolly not gonna buy one straight awat then, not so sure how long i will be interested on this
Jun 03 17:31:16 <hena> ;)
Jun 03 17:31:31 <balrog-kun> they produced 1000 and the list of potential buyers was only 350
Jun 03 17:31:45 <hena> ah, ok
Jun 03 17:32:04 <aloril2> balrog-kun: I think actual number of buyers will be at least 10x of buying_interest_list
Jun 03 17:32:36 <buz> i think if interest is higher, interest list people should get precedence?
Jun 03 17:32:46 <buz> i know its not official or anyhting like that
Jun 03 17:32:52 <buz> but you need to allocate them somehow
Jun 03 17:33:01 <buz> unless you do fifo, which is fair, too
Jun 03 17:34:14 <balrog-kun> aloril2: yeah, i'd say 2x or 3x, but i'm incompetent in statistics
Jun 03 17:34:43 <buz> i'd say it hinges on p2 discount
Jun 03 17:34:52 <balrog-kun> aloril2: and i think half of the people on the list are not going to hop right on the phones and perhaps have only put their names on there for fun
Jun 03 17:35:10 <buz> if discount is small i'll wait
Jun 03 17:35:52 <aloril2> balrog-kun: could be, but also I think many won't bother to register+edit (and at same publish that they want to buy it) for 'nothing' as page says
Jun 03 17:36:38 <aloril2> buz: also how long time until P2 is available
Jun 03 17:36:45 <balrog-kun> aloril2: right, i myself wouldn't register only because i'd be planning to buy, if i was
Jun 03 17:37:11 <buz> personally i registered but havent yet decided on p1
Jun 03 17:37:14 <buz> damn sure will get p2
Jun 03 17:37:42 <SpeedEvil> I want p1
Jun 03 17:38:56 * aloril2 wants both
Jun 03 17:39:52 * balrog-kun would currently buy a Tapwave Zodiac 2 if he was to buy a gadget
Jun 03 17:39:57 * aloril2 wishes they would have added multitouch, but I guess that isn't as 'simple' as adding another chip like wifi, etc.. are
Jun 03 17:40:24 <buz> i would have hoped for a cam
Jun 03 17:40:29 <buz> i know about retooling etc but still
Jun 03 17:40:47 <aloril2> maybe multitouch would require retooling too :-(
Jun 03 17:40:51 <Ganneff> what does one want with a cam in a *phone*?
Jun 03 17:41:05 <Ganneff> one tool for one thing... :)
Jun 03 17:41:07 <buz> if its a good cam
Jun 03 17:41:17 <buz> it might well replace a cheap point and shoot digicam
Jun 03 17:41:22 <xl0> buz: It's theoretically impossible.
Jun 03 17:41:28 <hena> well, id like to get one asap, but if they're scarce, i can wait
Jun 03 17:41:41 <hena> there are prolly more useful dev's there than me ;)
Jun 03 17:42:04 <buz> xl0: take a look at the pics from nokia n95
Jun 03 17:42:14 <buz> its not slr like, but its plenty for something i actually have with me
Jun 03 17:42:25 <buz> (the old .22cal vs assault rifle discussion)
Jun 03 17:44:06 <hena> i ran in to the store to get psp when it came out, paid a whole lot money out of it and took me six months to do anything with it and even then my interest lasted for a month 
Jun 03 17:44:21 <pH5> I don't need a cam in my phone, but a umts phone+gps in the cam would be nice.
Jun 03 17:44:35 <mmp> Ganneff: there's a lot you can do with a cam in _free_ phone :)
Jun 03 17:47:26 <mjr> a bluetooth-enabled camera would be a nice companion piece...
Jun 03 17:47:38 <hena> ;)
Jun 03 17:48:20 <mmp> mjr: sure, but still another piece of hardware you need to carry with you
Jun 03 17:48:29 * mmp would rather see it integrated
Jun 03 17:48:35 <hena> i'm more into enciphering
Jun 03 17:49:03 <Ganneff> if i want a tool to take pics - i take a camera. if i want to phone - a phone. etc. i hate "put it all in once". just lowers quality of everything
Jun 03 17:49:16 <elcarni> hm
Jun 03 17:49:54 <elcarni> this was certainly already posted
Jun 03 17:49:54 <mmp> Ganneff: your camera is not capable of doing instant OCR of text you just photo'ed :)
Jun 03 17:50:06 <elcarni> http://www.djlosch.com/article_Comparison:_iPhone_vs_A1200_vs_Neo1973
Jun 03 17:50:14 <elcarni> a nice comparison
Jun 03 17:50:14 <Ganneff> mmp: of course, because its a camera and not a ocr software
Jun 03 17:50:38 <hena> umm, why not?
Jun 03 17:52:04 <Vegar> you need high-quality cameras for OCR
Jun 03 17:52:26 <mmp> Ganneff: The whole is not just sum of its parts:). The point is that by adding cam to openmoko phone you can do things you would not expect. Would you expect location-based profiles from phone with GPS? :)
Jun 03 17:53:09 <elcarni> hm... a cam would be very nice
Jun 03 17:53:14 <hena> well, for it work in a sane way, but nothing really stops you from having ocr in your phone
Jun 03 17:53:34 <elcarni> but still... it will certainly not be meant for photographers...
Jun 03 17:53:51 <mmp> Vegar: yes, but basically just taking some quick photo of big ehough text can save few minutes of "typing" it into phone, which can be nice, as there is no official input method for openmoko except virtual keyboard, afaik.
Jun 03 17:53:57 <elcarni> because cellphone cameras are still not good enough
Jun 03 17:54:13 <hena> true, i'd rather just have simple cam interface in the phone and buy the phone as an accessory if i wanted
Jun 03 17:54:23 <hena> haha
Jun 03 17:54:25 <hena> the cam i mean ;)
Jun 03 17:55:41 <Freed> plug an usb cam !
Jun 03 17:55:58 <buz> wtf, guy calls, wants troubleshooting from me but insists on me signing an NDA from abroad
Jun 03 17:56:06 <buz> yeah i dont think so
Jun 03 17:56:52 <SpeedEvil> Was he going to pay?
Jun 03 17:57:20 <DukeOfURL> who's the guy?
Jun 03 17:57:46 <buz> he said he'd only discuss details after me signing  nda
Jun 03 17:57:55 <buz> guy i know from some older deals
Jun 03 17:57:57 <DukeOfURL> from the states?
Jun 03 17:58:18 <SpeedEvil> The _right_ way is to pay you for signing the NDA.
Jun 03 17:58:36 <SpeedEvil> Irrespective if you then choose to work for him.
Jun 03 17:58:40 <hena> there is no right way of asking something like that
Jun 03 17:59:38 <buz> he is swiss as am i, but the company lives on channel islands (i usually refuse to deal with offshore on principle)
Jun 03 17:59:39 <SpeedEvil> Sure there is. "I'd like your opinion on something, but I can't discuss it without you signing an NDA. It'd be around $10K - and I'll pay you $200 for signing the NDA, irrespective of if you do it'
Jun 03 18:00:15 <buz> sounded like cleaning up behind some offshoring deal
Jun 03 18:00:22 <hena> nda's are bad, mmm'kay
Jun 03 18:00:27 <buz> exactly
Jun 03 18:00:31 <buz> i can see the need for ndas, 
Jun 03 18:00:39 <SpeedEvil> NDAs are required in some lines of buisness.
Jun 03 18:00:41 <buz> but i dont sign them without the client paying for a lawyer of my chosing
Jun 03 18:00:44 <SpeedEvil> For good reason.
Jun 03 18:00:45 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Jun 03 18:01:12 <buz> not that i really am keen on cleaning up some cheap php stuff anyway
Jun 03 18:01:31 <buz> oh and btw, by that measure, 200usd for the nda is too little
Jun 03 18:01:52 <SpeedEvil> Numbers were made up - whatever you feel comfortable with.
Jun 03 18:02:02 <SpeedEvil> Lawyers fees + your usual hourly.
Jun 03 18:02:06 <SpeedEvil> +foo
Jun 03 18:02:09 <buz> yeah
Jun 03 18:02:15 <buz> but try getting a lawyer sunday evening
Jun 03 18:02:27 <buz> thats just not gonna happening unless you're a really good customer
Jun 03 18:03:01 <buz> (i dont htink the one who drafted the nda really had much clue about writing such, never seen a 10 line nda)
Jun 03 18:03:04 <DukeOfURL> Before signing, he should describe, in a document, every proprietary item that he is going to divulge to you.  Then escrow the document and reference it in the NDA.  After signing, you can then determine whether items are already in the public domain.
Jun 03 18:03:12 <buz> exactly
Jun 03 18:03:18 <buz> and not just use wildcard language like all projects
Jun 03 18:03:49 <DukeOfURL> it's a power trip anyway
Jun 03 18:03:54 <DukeOfURL> for him
Jun 03 18:03:55 * SpeedEvil sets all lawyers on fire.
Jun 03 18:04:01 <aloril2> Vegar: look at http://www.allaboutsymbian.com/reviews/item/Nokia_N95-part_3_the_Camera.php : seems enough for OCR
Jun 03 18:04:18 <SpeedEvil> OCR is more a software problem IMO.
Jun 03 18:04:33 <buz> that cam is more than good enough for snapshots
Jun 03 18:04:37 <buz> but the phone runs 700EUR
Jun 03 18:04:38 <aloril2> of course old FZ20 5Mpixel is much better, but still nice pics considering its camera phone
Jun 03 18:04:56 <SpeedEvil> I wonder when multi-lens/sensor fusion cameras will hit.
Jun 03 18:07:59 <SpeedEvil> For a complete 360*360 panorama, at the peak resolution of the eyes - you need around 1.4 gigapixels.
Jun 03 18:09:21 <aloril2> SpeedEvil: and maybe 60Hz ;-)
Jun 03 18:09:28 <Tronic> Hmm, doesn't seem so bad.
Jun 03 18:09:48 <SpeedEvil> My ideal 'snap' camera would be around a 10 gigapixel wide-angle lens. Decide later that I'd have rather used a 50* zoom, and just crop it, and I've got a 4MP image.
Jun 03 18:09:48 <Tronic> aloril2: Probably more than that, too.
Jun 03 18:10:03 <SpeedEvil> You want as fast as you can, so you can de-blue
Jun 03 18:10:04 <SpeedEvil> You want as fast as you can, so you can de-blur
Jun 03 18:10:24 <SpeedEvil> And not only camera motion, but object motion blur removal.
Jun 03 18:10:45 <SpeedEvil> Essentially delay much of what makes a good photo till later.
Jun 03 18:10:53 <aloril2> blah, just record every photon that hits ;-)
Jun 03 18:10:57 <SpeedEvil> Point the camera in sort-of-the right direction.
Jun 03 18:11:02 <Tronic> SpeedEvil: If you start going that way, you will need an infinite resolution, too.
Jun 03 18:11:05 <Tronic> So that you can zoom.
Jun 03 18:11:07 <SpeedEvil> Not quite.
Jun 03 18:11:13 <SpeedEvil> Just several gigapixels.
Jun 03 18:11:29 <Tronic> Can't zoom on that...
Jun 03 18:11:33 <Tronic> (much)
Jun 03 18:11:43 <SpeedEvil> On a 60 degree lens
Jun 03 18:11:44 <Rince> there won't be a camera on the P2-Neo
Jun 03 18:11:48 <SpeedEvil> Not for a complete panorama.
Jun 03 18:12:47 <Tronic> I have been wondering how densely packed full color pixels are required to display a perfect image for human eyes.
Jun 03 18:12:58 <Tronic> Maybe something around 1000 DPI?
Jun 03 18:13:05 <SpeedEvil> Well - ...
Jun 03 18:13:11 <CoreDump|home> way less
Jun 03 18:13:13 <SpeedEvil> It's more angular resolution.
Jun 03 18:13:28 <SpeedEvil> 1000dpi is almost certainly never visible by most people.
Jun 03 18:13:35 <Tronic> The limiting factor is that you can only focus from 10 cm or so.
Jun 03 18:13:36 <CoreDump|home> the human eye can hardly make out a pixel in 300DPI
Jun 03 18:13:38 <SpeedEvil> It may be by some with exceptionally short sight.
Jun 03 18:13:42 <Tronic> If you try to look closer, you see less.
Jun 03 18:14:09 <Tronic> CoreDump|home: It's quite easy to see pixels on 300 DPI laser prints.
Jun 03 18:14:35 <Tronic> It is still possible, but harder, to see pixels on 600 DPI laser prints.
Jun 03 18:14:59 <DukeOfURL> Wasn't there talk abount another FIC product in the openmoko tree?  Camera phone?
Jun 03 18:15:02 <Tronic> And IMO impossible on 1200 DPI...
Jun 03 18:15:44 <Tronic> Even 1200 DPI isn't perfect for laser prints, though, as they have to use rasterization for greyscales.
Jun 03 18:16:16 <buz> DukeOfURL: something with 300000pixel sensors
Jun 03 18:16:45 <Tronic> But on a full color display the benchmark is whether you can recognize a 2x2 block of grey pixels from a single white pixel.
Jun 03 18:17:08 <KragenSitaker> tronic: wikipedia claims that "the ability to resolve a spatial pattern separated by a visual angle of one minute of arc is considered normal visual acuity"
Jun 03 18:17:43 <Tronic> KragenSitaker: How many DPI does that make at 10 cm?
Jun 03 18:17:54 <KragenSitaker> units tells me that that's 0.00029088821 radians
Jun 03 18:18:07 <KragenSitaker> sin(x) is pretty close to x when x is less than 0.01
Jun 03 18:18:08 <Tronic> And what is a visual pattern? A c letter or an E, like what they use in eye examinations?
Jun 03 18:18:35 <Tronic> You need to see worth of several pixels of a pattern in order to recognize it.
Jun 03 18:18:35 <KragenSitaker> so that's .00290888210 centimeters...
Jun 03 18:18:52 <KragenSitaker> or 0.0011452292 inches (sorry, i'm cutting and pasting)
Jun 03 18:19:06 <KragenSitaker> that's about 800 or 900 dpi
Jun 03 18:19:09 <KragenSitaker> well, lines per inch
Jun 03 18:19:12 * Tronic just uses Google calculator normally.
Jun 03 18:19:22 <KragenSitaker> which means twice that in dots per inch
Jun 03 18:19:32 <Tronic> Now I am stuck in text console, installing Gentoo.
Jun 03 18:20:04 <SpeedEvil> Few people can focus at optimum resolution at 10cm
Jun 03 18:20:07 <KragenSitaker> i think "pattern separated by" means that if you have two marks with that much space between them, you can see that there are two instead of one
Jun 03 18:20:08 <Tronic> But that's pretty close to my estimate, then :)
Jun 03 18:20:22 <KragenSitaker> SpeedEvil: i think almost everyone under 25 can ;)
Jun 03 18:20:32 <SpeedEvil> Not at full resolution.
Jun 03 18:21:05 <SpeedEvil> The lens gets more abberant as it's pushed into the shape to focus closely.
Jun 03 18:21:09 <KragenSitaker> well, it suggests that the number might be 1600 or 1800 dpi rather than 1200, but yes, it's pretty close
Jun 03 18:21:21 <KragenSitaker> SpeedEvil: you could be right --- i'm not a vision scientist
Jun 03 18:22:31 <Tronic> Of course even the best displays have had only about 100 DPI for the last decade or two, so it's quite unlikely that we get to 1000 DPI any time soon.
Jun 03 18:22:48 <SpeedEvil> Somewhere I've got a 3000DPI display.
Jun 03 18:23:03 <SpeedEvil> It's only 5mm though.
Jun 03 18:23:18 <KragenSitaker> if it's just a matter of slight aberrations, though, then whether you can distinguish stuff might depend on how strong the contrast is
Jun 03 18:23:24 <KragenSitaker> that's pretty cool! what's it for?
Jun 03 18:23:53 <SpeedEvil> It was from a viewfinder.
Jun 03 18:23:56 <buz> Tronic: decent displays have more like 120-150dpi these days
Jun 03 18:24:15 <KragenSitaker> Tronic: i think there have been a few displays, e.g. for medical imaging and, as speedevil points out, camera viewfinders, that have had better resolution for a while
Jun 03 18:24:18 <Tronic> buz: Do you mean displays for mobile devices?
Jun 03 18:24:31 <KragenSitaker> but that's certainly true of mainstream computer monitors
Jun 03 18:24:33 <buz> more laptops/desktop lcd
Jun 03 18:24:46 <Tronic> buz: Yes, those can have slightly higher DPIs.
Jun 03 18:24:53 <Tronic> Laptops, that is.
Jun 03 18:24:59 <Tronic> Desktop LCDs don't, for some reason.
Jun 03 18:25:01 <SpeedEvil> I can see benefit from going to 200DPI from 100DPI for general purpose displays.
Jun 03 18:25:03 <buz> i never quite figured out that one
Jun 03 18:25:09 <Tronic> They are all just ~96 DPI.
Jun 03 18:25:26 <buz> i'd buy 15" 1680x1050 like in my laptop in a heartbeat
Jun 03 18:25:32 <buz> should be cheaper to make than 20" one, too
Jun 03 18:25:40 <SpeedEvil> And lower power.
Jun 03 18:25:44 <SpeedEvil> And lighter.
Jun 03 18:25:51 <Tronic> I believe that even 1920x1200 is available for 15" laptops now.
Jun 03 18:25:53 <buz> yeah i dont really care much for power in a desktop lcd
Jun 03 18:25:56 <buz> Tronic: yes
Jun 03 18:26:00 <buz> but only in heavy ones
Jun 03 18:26:04 <SpeedEvil> Oh -0 I thoguth you meant laptop.
Jun 03 18:26:10 <Tronic> The laptop panels have very bad image quality, though.
Jun 03 18:26:19 <buz> Tronic: there are some good ones
Jun 03 18:26:28 <buz> samsung has nice in their expensive range
Jun 03 18:26:28 <KragenSitaker> wow, 1900x1200?
Jun 03 18:26:36 <KragenSitaker> that's amazing
Jun 03 18:26:41 <buz> yeah 1920x1200 has been around for a while in laptops
Jun 03 18:26:44 * cjb is using 1920x1200@15" right now.
Jun 03 18:26:51 <buz> cjb: what laptop
Jun 03 18:26:52 <cjb> You can get several laptops with it, even a Dell.
Jun 03 18:26:57 <cjb> Alienware m5500 for me.
Jun 03 18:27:02 <ewon> alienware?
Jun 03 18:27:04 <ewon> good God man
Jun 03 18:27:07 * buz doesnt buy dell
Jun 03 18:27:09 <MacNorth> so sorta Dell :-D
Jun 03 18:27:16 <buz> and the only lenovo there is, is 3kg
Jun 03 18:27:28 <Tronic> My next laptop is going to be Dell or HP. Haven't decided which.
Jun 03 18:27:29 <cjb> http://blog.printf.net/articles/2006/04/20/linux-on-the-alienware-m5500
Jun 03 18:27:33 <buz> i rather get 2,4kg and stick with 1680x1050
Jun 03 18:27:35 <KragenSitaker> i guess if i had to choose between 2 megapixels in a 15" display and 2 megapixels at 100dpi, i might choose the bigger display
Jun 03 18:27:39 * buz suggest thinkpad t61
Jun 03 18:27:45 <ewon> I have a compaq n400c I got off ebay of $300
Jun 03 18:27:47 <MacNorth> asus anyone?
Jun 03 18:27:51 <Tronic> Lenovo has been a disappointment lately.
Jun 03 18:27:53 <buz> MacNorth: overpriced
Jun 03 18:27:57 <hena> hmmh. there are some really annoyinh things i see, for features and suggestions :/
Jun 03 18:27:57 <Tronic> MacNorth: No freaking way.
Jun 03 18:28:01 <buz> Tronic: yeah i'm getting rid of my T60
Jun 03 18:28:02 <Tronic> MacNorth: I already have one :/
Jun 03 18:28:19 <buz> but only because of the missing ati drivers on linux
Jun 03 18:28:19 <ewon> if I had the money, I'd get a thinkpad x series
Jun 03 18:28:24 <buz> otherwise the machine is a dream to use
Jun 03 18:28:30 <buz> ewon: they are on sale in the us
Jun 03 18:28:37 <buz> 1200US or so
Jun 03 18:28:42 <SpeedEvil> My ideal display isn't really physically possible ATM. I want a 4m across 4:3 display, which is at least showing the image at infinity, better proper 3D. And you can get a tan from it.
Jun 03 18:28:55 <Tronic> It's sad that 14" laptops are very rare.
Jun 03 18:29:01 <Tronic> IMO that's the optimal size.
Jun 03 18:29:03 <buz> Tronic: quite a few aorund still
Jun 03 18:29:05 * SpeedEvil is using his 10" laptop.
Jun 03 18:29:12 <ewon> Tronic: unless you want to carry it anywhere
Jun 03 18:29:12 <cjb> SpeedEvil: cool, which?
Jun 03 18:29:17 <buz> including the uber cool 1400x1050 1,5kg panasonic
Jun 03 18:29:19 <elcarni> vaio?
Jun 03 18:29:20 * cjb was thinking about getting a 10" LifeBook next.
Jun 03 18:29:22 <SpeedEvil> Toshiba 3110CT - lightly modded.
Jun 03 18:29:32 <buz> but 2100USD plus shipping from JP is too much
Jun 03 18:29:32 <SpeedEvil> Recelled with modern cells - for 6 hour uptime.
Jun 03 18:29:37 <Tronic> 15.4" is quite big and difficult to use in coaches or planes.
Jun 03 18:29:39 <SpeedEvil> Modem ripped out, and wifi stick jammed in.
Jun 03 18:29:42 <SpeedEvil> 1.1Kg.
Jun 03 18:30:00 <buz> Tronic: i dont work on planes
Jun 03 18:30:08 * elcarni is using 15.4" and thinks its great
Jun 03 18:30:15 * buz agrees
Jun 03 18:30:35 <buz> i hate flying anyhow
Jun 03 18:30:35 <elcarni> specially for movies
Jun 03 18:30:36 <ewon> do you guys ever have to travel with your laptops?
Jun 03 18:30:37 * mmp is using it and agrees too
Jun 03 18:30:38 <Tronic> Widescreen (1.60 aspect ratio) has became the norm in the past two years, which is a good thing.
Jun 03 18:30:52 <buz> ewon: to school, quite often
Jun 03 18:30:58 * elcarni has to travel with his laptop
Jun 03 18:31:01 <KragenSitaker> is the X series the next product line up from the T series, or the next line down?
Jun 03 18:31:04 <Tronic> ewon: I carry my laptop with me almost everywhere.
Jun 03 18:31:04 <buz> but the train ride is too short for it o be worht taking it out of the bag
Jun 03 18:31:06 <buz> so gotta go
Jun 03 18:31:08 <ewon> buz: do you not find such a laptop hard to use on a bus seat?
Jun 03 18:31:10 * cjb travels with his OLPC.  :)
Jun 03 18:31:17 * elcarni hopes that he can leave his laptop back at home when openmoko is out
Jun 03 18:31:25 <buz> ewon: i dont use it on the road
Jun 03 18:31:26 <KragenSitaker> cjb: how's touch-typing on it? do you have small hands?
Jun 03 18:31:38 <ewon> ah
Jun 03 18:31:41 <cjb> I have huge hands, but touch-typing is okay, it just took a long time to get good at it.
Jun 03 18:31:57 <elcarni> same here
Jun 03 18:32:31 <KragenSitaker> i think touch-typing is the biggest thing i'd miss on the neo1973 if i were to take it in place of my laptop
Jun 03 18:32:36 <cjb> http://wiki.laptop.org/go/Image:AP1_39.jpg # OLPC vs. Alienware.
Jun 03 18:32:51 <Vegar> KragenSitaker: bluetooth keyboard
Jun 03 18:33:19 <quitte> this is pretty offtopic, but maybe someone here can help me understand this: I have a ar7 based router that by default adds a mtd partition for jffs2 behind the squashfs rootfs. I'd like to flash a complete image containing both the squasfs and the jffs2, but I can't figure out how the kernel knows where the squashfs partition ends.
Jun 03 18:33:56 <cjb> quitte: on the Neo, it uses an environment variable in the bootloader.
Jun 03 18:34:05 <elcarni> goddamnit
Jun 03 18:34:21 <elcarni> compilation failed :(((
Jun 03 18:35:49 <pjz> quitte: there's generally either a compiled-in map in the kernel or a kernel cmdline arg
Jun 03 18:37:07 <balrog-kun> the cmdline args is "mtdparts=" i think
Jun 03 18:37:26 <balrog-kun> and the compiled-in map is normally found in the board file
Jun 03 18:38:07 <quitte> I had a look at the flash mapping part for that device. it calculates the beginning of the squashfs by searching for it. and then it just knows the size of it by a pointer named size, that as far as I with my limited understanding ca tell is just there. then it defines the next partition behind that.
Jun 03 18:39:11 <quitte> unfortunately if I just add some another filesystem image to the firmware image the size pointer is always too big.
Jun 03 18:46:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:Hena]] [[Neo1973]]
Jun 03 18:57:33 <crackfiend> MacNorth: a little late, but Asus has very well built laptops. I have an M6N, and the build quality is much, much higher than my Inspiron 1505 (no more Dell for me)
Jun 03 19:27:43 <thomasg_gpm> crackfiend, all asus notebooks I've seen have "mirror"-displays, aka glossy, aka glare, aka somethingelse :) imho that makes devices unusable for working mobile.
Jun 03 19:49:00 <crackfiend> thomasg_gpm: hmmm. My laptop is older (Centrino), but it definitely does not have a glossy screen. Maybe that's a new thing they do
Jun 03 20:24:29 <loufoque> crackfiend: what's "the build quality" ?
Jun 03 20:27:23 <pH5> loufoque: there are peaces coming off my dell laptop all the time, that's not build quality.
Jun 03 20:27:31 <pH5> s/peaces/pieces/
Jun 03 20:27:31 <apt> pH5 meant: loufoque: there are pieces coming off my dell laptop all the time, that's not build quality.
Jun 03 20:28:21 <cjb> yes, the glossy screen is a new thing.  MacBooks are pretty extreme about it.
Jun 03 20:28:32 <pH5> it's a pity
Jun 03 20:32:53 * koen bought a mbpro to avoid the OMG GLOSSY!!!! screen
Jun 03 20:33:09 <koen> if I want brighter colours I'll alter the ICC profile
Jun 03 20:33:20 <pH5> I guess those glossy displays are good for contrast when looked at in a completely dark room.
Jun 03 20:33:53 <cjb> yeah, my wife likes hers.  she works in a lab with overhead florescent lighting, though, and it's much harder to see there.
Jun 03 20:33:55 <cjb> so it's a trade-off.
Jun 03 20:34:44 <pH5> I'll happily trade in contrast for visibility in daylight conditions. Heck, I wish the neo's display was transflective.
Jun 03 20:35:48 <cjb> yeah, I think OLPC will start getting display manufacturers to think about making sunlight-readable screens.
Jun 03 20:35:59 <Elrond> pH5 - My python gps-toy starts to get useful (in the sense, that I can send commands, receive answers. ;-))
Jun 03 20:36:02 * koen joins the "i <3 OLPC screen" crowd
Jun 03 20:37:33 <pH5> Elrond: oh great, now get a lock on some satellites :)
Jun 03 20:37:38 <pH5> did you put it up somewhere?
Jun 03 20:38:09 <Elrond> pH5 - The .py? No, not yet. It's only on the flash of the phone ;o)
Jun 03 20:38:11 <crackfiend> loufoque: like pH5 said, little things always breaking, buttons sticking, and when I lift the laptop it creaks and squeaks. There's more flex in the plastic panels (seems very thin). I don't get that with the Asus
Jun 03 20:38:24 <Elrond> (I've compiled my editor for the phone ;o) )
Jun 03 20:38:54 <SpeedEvil> How slow is gcc on the phone?
Jun 03 20:39:50 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - I have not compiled gcc for it yet.
Jun 03 20:39:51 <loufoque> crackfiend: I've been buying Dell laptops for quite some time (because I can choose the hardware a bit) but never any other brand, so I couldn't compare.
Jun 03 20:40:28 <Elrond> SpeedEvil - But "$EDITOR, python ..., $EDITOR" doesn't feel any different than on my desktop. :-)
Jun 03 20:44:49 <miip> I had an old ASUS (Pentium3m) and it squeaked like hell after two years. the new HP gets cracks but doesn't squeak :)
Jun 03 20:53:59 <Elrond> Hmm, matchbox-desktop-2 looks somewhat better, but is buggy.
Jun 03 20:54:19 <Elrond> And it doesn't have the folders...
Jun 03 21:10:59 <webjames> is it me, or is openmoko getting speedier?
Jun 03 21:14:12 <webjames> !google 350 usd in gbp
Jun 03 21:14:13 <cdbot2> 350 U.S. dollars = 176.830192 British pounds
Jun 03 21:14:23 <webjames> cdbot2: thanks
Jun 03 21:16:34 <guaqua> !google 350 usd in eur
Jun 03 21:16:35 <cdbot2> 350 U.S. dollars = 260.37792 Euros
Jun 03 21:18:40 <webjames> guaqua: not bad really, i'm going to buy one!
Jun 03 21:18:51 <guaqua> yeah
Jun 03 21:18:57 <guaqua> i'm getting P1 or P2
Jun 03 21:18:59 <guaqua> not sure yet
Jun 03 21:19:08 <guaqua> little low on the money side now so it might be P2
Jun 03 21:19:15 <guaqua> my current phone is breaking down anyway so...
Jun 03 21:19:22 <webjames> i was going to get a P1+ but i'm not sure if that's still on
Jun 03 21:19:36 <webjames> or rather when that will be on
Jun 03 21:20:13 <webjames> i sold my k800i so i'd have the money, but that was a while ago, so i may not anymore
Jun 03 21:25:43 <loufoque> is a k800i worth something?
Jun 03 21:30:22 <webjames> yeah, enough to buy a neo
Jun 03 21:32:51 <webjames> i know which one i'd prefer!
Jun 03 21:33:14 <loufoque> the k800i has a good camera though
Jun 03 21:33:16 <loufoque> and umts
Jun 03 21:36:12 <webjames> well it was good, but slow.. no good really as most subjects like moving before the photo has taken
Jun 03 21:41:59 <KragenSitaker> Vegar: is there a bluetooth keyboard you can recommend?
Jun 03 21:52:12 <DukeOfURL> I just purchased the Macintosh BT keyboard and mouse, and I like them a lot.
Jun 03 21:53:52 <Elrond> DukeOfURL - How much do they cost?
Jun 03 21:54:41 <Elrond> (Not to mention, I'm too paranoid to type my password over a radio link...)
Jun 03 21:58:05 <DukeOfURL> The MightyMouse is 69USD, and the keyboard is 59USD
Jun 03 21:58:47 <DukeOfURL> http://store.apple.com/1-800-MY-APPLE/WebObjects/AppleStore.woa/wa/RSLID?mco=ED876AF4&nplm=MA272LL/A
Jun 03 21:59:52 <loufoque> argh
Jun 03 21:59:53 <loufoque> crapple
Jun 03 22:06:08 <Kensan> Elrond, Bluetooth provides Authentication and Encryption.
Jun 03 22:06:21 <webjames> wow, just looking at e-ink
Jun 03 22:12:44 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2145 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/ (buttonactions.c buttonactions.h): openmoko-panel-mainmenu: prepare for simple power saving logic
Jun 03 22:18:39 <thomasg_gpm> hehe, look at sun's german homepage: http://de.sun.com/homepage/index.html
Jun 03 22:21:19 <k|to> sweet
Jun 03 22:30:05 <loufoque> what's JAVAFX ?
Jun 03 22:30:42 <k|to> something that sun would like you to believe will revolutionize your life
Jun 03 22:32:36 <loufoque> isn't that the case for everything sun does?
Jun 03 22:32:59 <k|to> i know they've been saying that about java for ages
Jun 03 22:33:18 <k|to> I shouldn't talk, my dad was one of the original java guys at sun
Jun 03 22:33:45 <loufoque> even dads can be wrong sometimes.
Jun 03 22:33:57 <k|to> no, never!
Jun 03 22:33:58 <k|to> heh
Jun 03 22:34:18 * k|to still hasn't bothered to really learn java
Jun 03 22:34:42 <loufoque> there is nothing to learn.
Jun 03 22:34:46 <loufoque> that's the point.
Jun 03 22:35:03 <loufoque> it features stuff every programmer knows
Jun 03 22:35:13 <loufoque> it's just OO 
Jun 03 22:35:15 <k|to> well, it helps to know where to find stuff
Jun 03 22:35:43 <loufoque> the language and its huge standard library are different things
Jun 03 22:35:52 <k|to> yea
Jun 03 22:35:58 <k|to> im talking about the STL
Jun 03 22:36:03 <k|to> I have no idea what's where
Jun 03 22:36:10 <balrog-kun> the syntax also has its quirks
Jun 03 22:38:55 <Tronic> Java used to be a syntactically simplified language.
Jun 03 22:39:15 <Tronic> Then they noticed that programs in such language get extremely complex and started adding new features.
Jun 03 22:39:25 <Tronic> Now it is a mess.
Jun 03 22:45:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Csdexter]]
Jun 03 22:46:57 <Elrond> I wonder, how much the openmoko coreteam knows about sun+neo. ;-)
Jun 03 22:47:18 <loufoque> very little
Jun 03 22:47:30 <xl0> wtf sun+neo?
Jun 03 22:47:56 <k|to> if they're not using this javafx stuff, then why is it on sun's main page?
Jun 03 22:48:26 <loufoque> I guess this means the neo will have java
Jun 03 22:48:34 <loufoque> and GPL java
Jun 03 22:51:30 <Elrond> xl0 - See http://de.sun.com/
Jun 03 22:52:03 <xl0> Ughm.
Jun 03 23:03:54 <DukeOfURL> GTA02 might have EDGE!
Jun 03 23:04:18 <Elrond> DukeOfURL - From where do you know that?
Jun 03 23:04:34 <loufoque> what's the point of EDGE when there is UMTS
Jun 03 23:04:45 <DukeOfURL> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8574715471341709984
Jun 03 23:04:46 <Mukunda> Has there been any news on how much the discount on the final Openmoko will be for people that buy P1?
Jun 03 23:05:11 <Elrond> Mukunda - No idea.
Jun 03 23:05:19 <loufoque> DukeOfURL: if it's english, it's very weird
Jun 03 23:05:37 <Mukunda> http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=3147833455273735180&q=Questions+Answered
Jun 03 23:05:41 <DukeOfURL> with Neo demo
Jun 03 23:07:19 <k|to> wow, lucky me
Jun 03 23:07:32 <k|to> i was expecting it to be in german (which i almost kinda speak)
Jun 03 23:07:37 <k|to> but then its in chinese
Jun 03 23:07:43 <k|to> and my chinese is better than my german
Jun 03 23:07:46 <k|to> go figure
Jun 03 23:07:53 <DukeOfURL> english later
Jun 03 23:08:01 <DukeOfURL> scroll forward to Sean
Jun 03 23:08:17 <k|to> is that gonna be in german?
Jun 03 23:09:03 <k|to> oh sweet, english. my english is even better than my chinese ;P
Jun 03 23:09:15 <Elrond> *G*
Jun 03 23:09:28 <Elrond> k|to - So what's your preferred language? quenya? ;o)
Jun 03 23:09:33 <k|to> hah
Jun 03 23:09:39 <k|to> no, im  a native english speaker
Jun 03 23:09:41 <DukeOfURL> Fortran
Jun 03 23:09:46 <k|to> yea
Jun 03 23:09:48 <k|to> that's it
Jun 03 23:09:58 * k|to actually knows fortran, for some reason
Jun 03 23:10:56 <Elrond> I knew cobol. ;o)
Jun 03 23:11:15 <k|to> O_O
Jun 03 23:11:18 <DukeOfURL> PROCEDURE DIVISION.
Jun 03 23:12:29 <loufoque> fortran is useless
Jun 03 23:12:37 <k|to> fortran rocks
Jun 03 23:12:52 <k|to> great for creating segfaults
Jun 03 23:12:56 <DukeOfURL> back in the day, it was Fortran and Cobol
Jun 03 23:13:04 <loufoque> fortran-like performance can already be reached with today's C++
Jun 03 23:13:35 <k|to> most of the reason fortran still exists is to maintain old code
Jun 03 23:13:37 <Elrond> I never understood, why people still hip on fortran stuff.
Jun 03 23:13:57 <k|to> most of the aerospace engineering industry's code is still in fortran
Jun 03 23:14:09 <DukeOfURL> Elrond: it was a joke.
Jun 03 23:14:13 <k|to> and it would take a damn long time to rewrite it all in c or c++
Jun 03 23:14:39 <k|to> don't worry though, we'll rewrite it as soon as the rules of aerodynamics change ;-P
Jun 03 23:14:41 <loufoque> Fortran is faster than C
Jun 03 23:15:16 <Elrond> Why can fortran be faster than C?
Jun 03 23:15:35 <cjb> No pointers.
Jun 03 23:15:41 <loufoque> because array programming is part of the language.
Jun 03 23:15:43 <cjb> Pointers are the optimization-killer.  :)
Jun 03 23:17:22 <cjb> Elrond: ie. C converts arrays to pointers in function passing, so two pointers to the same type might point to the same data, but the compiler can't know that.  So it can't touch that code at all.
Jun 03 23:17:37 <cjb> Fortran only has pointers that don't alias, so the limited Fortran pointers don't hurt optimization.
Jun 03 23:17:58 * cjb still knows physicists writing Fortran code -- I remember the phrase "a good Fortran compiler beats a great C compiler".
Jun 03 23:18:16 <loufoque> that's not really why Fortran is faster.
Jun 03 23:18:27 <Elrond> Well, good hand optimised C code will perform the same, I'm quite sure.
Jun 03 23:18:36 <loufoque> Fortran is faster for scientific computing because arrays, matrices, etc. are part of the languages
Jun 03 23:18:36 <k|to> until recently there really wasn't a good open source f90 compiler though
Jun 03 23:18:52 <cjb> loufoque: gcc has an autovectorization branch now.
Jun 03 23:19:09 <Elrond> Oh, and simple story.
Jun 03 23:19:11 <loufoque> it's not only about vectorization
Jun 03 23:19:17 <Elrond> physicists fortran code....
Jun 03 23:19:18 <cjb> loufoque: so while your complaint is totally true, it's a problem with the compiler (and Intel's icc does a great job on scientific code) rather than the language, I think.
Jun 03 23:19:23 <DukeOfURL> show me a CS curriculum that has Fortran or Cobol.  It's as dead as Latin.
Jun 03 23:19:33 <cjb> DukeOfURL: dead to CS, not to Physics.
Jun 03 23:19:41 <Elrond> ... college rewrote it in python/numpy. It was lots faster. ;-)
Jun 03 23:19:47 <k|to> my aeroE curriculum is almost exclusively fortran
Jun 03 23:19:51 <k|to> fortran and some matlab
Jun 03 23:19:55 <DukeOfURL> yikes!
Jun 03 23:20:17 <loufoque> anyway, thanks to C++, the greatest language on earth, Fortran's performance is reachable with a library implementation.
Jun 03 23:20:36 <k|to> yea, i did that last semester
Jun 03 23:20:44 <Elrond> loufoque - Yeah, that's what I was expecting... or in C. whatever.
Jun 03 23:20:47 <k|to> wrote my code in C++ with fortran calls
Jun 03 23:20:59 <loufoque> Elrond: it's not possible in C at all...
Jun 03 23:21:22 <loufoque> it's based on template trickery
Jun 03 23:22:07 <loufoque> By using templates cleverly, optimizations such as loop fusion, unrolling, tiling, and algorithm specialization can be performed automatically at compile time.
Jun 03 23:22:12 <k|to> that's not necessary
Jun 03 23:22:30 <empty_mind> loufoque, any pointers for this kind of optimization ?
Jun 03 23:22:36 <k|to> you can always just link against fortran code
Jun 03 23:22:54 <empty_mind> loufoque, are these algorithms available anywhere on net ?
Jun 03 23:23:19 <loufoque> Blitz++ is a popular library that does that
Jun 03 23:23:26 <loufoque> there are others though
Jun 03 23:23:41 <loufoque> but blitz++ is the one that claims to be the fastest
Jun 03 23:24:15 <Elrond> loufoque - Anything, that C++ can do, can be done in C.
Jun 03 23:25:01 <Elrond> It might not be as nice. Of course.
Jun 03 23:25:10 <loufoque> you may want to search for "C++ expression templates" too for info on the mechanism
Jun 03 23:26:47 <Elrond> templates just make life easier. That's about it. :-)
Jun 03 23:27:16 <k|to> when you depend on templates too much they make life much messier down the line
Jun 03 23:28:35 <Elrond> k|to - Yep. Guess why I use C for performance critical stuff, and python for the rest. :-)
Jun 03 23:31:27 <xl0> k|to: And, what did the video say?
Jun 03 23:31:42 <xl0> Sorry, I don't have the needed bandwidth to watch it yet.
Jun 03 23:31:46 <k|to> he's still talking
Jun 03 23:31:55 <k|to> mostly just going on about how great FOSS is
Jun 03 23:31:55 <loufoque> Elrond: Let's say you've got a Vector type. To add two vectors, you would have code that does for(i=0; i<n; i++) v[i] = v1[i] + v2[i]; but using some assembler to get the SIMD stuff. So if you want to do something like  v = v1 + v2 / 5 + 4 * v3;, you would do in C v = add(add(v1, divide(v2, 5)), mul(4, v3)); with a loop for each function, which means a lot of loops, while actually, you just need to do one, for(i=0; i<n; i++) v[i
Jun 03 23:31:55 <loufoque> ] = v1[i] + v2[i] / 5 + 4* v3[i];
Jun 03 23:32:03 <k|to> nothing really interesting yet
Jun 03 23:32:14 <loufoque> Elrond: a C library just can't implement loop fusion here
Jun 03 23:35:33 <Elrond> loufoque - A C library can't but. But hand optimised C. ;-)
Jun 03 23:36:21 <DukeOfURL> Anyone figure out the watermelon poster?
Jun 03 23:36:24 <xl0> Elrond: And what's the point migrating tons of fortran code to hand-optimised c?
Jun 03 23:36:37 <k|to> which generation gets GPS?
Jun 03 23:36:41 <Elrond> xl0 - No point. :-)
Jun 03 23:37:14 <Elrond> k|to - The P0,P1 has gps. I assume, P1+/P2 will also have GPS.
Jun 03 23:37:15 <xl0> k|to: P[0-2]?
Jun 03 23:37:25 <k|to> sweet
Jun 03 23:37:28 <empty_mind> Elrond, and how many lines of hand optimized C code can be churned out everyday ?
Jun 03 23:37:36 <k|to> so no wifi at first but at least we get gps
Jun 03 23:38:00 <k|to> and then the accelerometer is also p1+?
Jun 03 23:38:04 <Elrond> empty_mind - You usually don't need to many of those. There are core parts of some software, that need this type of optimisation.
Jun 03 23:38:16 <empty_mind> k|to, we have heard gta02 will have wifi
Jun 03 23:38:38 <empty_mind> Elrond, but in scientific computing whole of the software is the core part :-(
Jun 03 23:39:12 <Elrond> empty_mind - Not true.
Jun 03 23:39:37 <Elrond> empty_mind - Some parts get only executed 10 times a second. It doesn't hurt, if they take 1ms.
Jun 03 23:39:54 <k|to> yea, like for example an ODE solver
Jun 03 23:40:23 <Elrond> Well, the solver has to be fast.
Jun 03 23:40:35 <k|to> things like LAPACK get used so much because they are so optimized and are often called inside the innermost loop in something much bigger like an FEA solver
Jun 03 23:40:44 <xl0> Hey. guys, may I make an assumption that you have little understanding what you are talking about? ;)
Jun 03 23:40:58 <k|to> so while the FEA interface can be as slow as anything, you really want a fast core solver
Jun 03 23:41:17 <Elrond> k|to - Right.
Jun 03 23:41:34 <Elrond> xl0 - No. At least for me, this is day-to-day work.
Jun 03 23:41:45 <k|to> To a degree this is what I study
Jun 03 23:41:54 <k|to> so I'm at least reasonably familiar
Jun 03 23:42:07 <xl0> My regrets to both of you. ;)
Jun 03 23:42:27 <k|to> :-\
Jun 03 23:42:50 <k|to> now they're getting into the technical bits
Jun 03 23:42:52 <xl0> Is there anything you can't do in matlab? ;)
Jun 03 23:42:58 <k|to> still nothing i hadn't read before though
Jun 03 23:43:13 <k|to> i realized a month or so ago that i can edit videos in matlab
Jun 03 23:43:17 <k|to> that was a fun night
Jun 03 23:43:38 <k|to> I superimposed this graph of a test result on a video of the test being performed all in matlab
Jun 03 23:43:58 <Elrond> I only used octave for a while.
Jun 03 23:44:11 <Elrond> Now I'm mostly using python for highlevel stuff.
Jun 03 23:44:16 <k|to> octave is pretty good too for many things
Jun 03 23:44:32 <k|to> but it can't compare to some of the specialized stuff that matlab provides
Jun 03 23:44:38 <k|to> (simulink, anyone?)
Jun 03 23:45:13 <Elrond> (I saw the engeenering people get orgasms using simulink ;o)) )
Jun 03 23:45:37 <k|to> it's that good
Jun 03 23:45:53 <Elrond> (I hope most people in here are over 18/21 and know what fun is.)
Jun 03 23:46:23 <k|to> heh
Jun 03 23:47:18 <Elrond> Well, I never had a use for it.
Jun 03 23:47:28 <Elrond> And I'm quite pissed by commercial software.
Jun 03 23:48:55 <cjb> s/commercial/proprietary/ :)
Jun 03 23:49:29 <Elrond> Well, yeah.
Jun 03 23:49:51 <Elrond> How do you run labview code in 30 years? ;o)
Jun 03 23:50:08 <Elrond> ... probably in qemu. ;o)
Jun 03 23:51:39 <Jeroen> as long as you can run emulators in emulators, you should be able to run most software forever
Jun 03 23:51:57 <Jeroen> but you won't be able to fix bugs, add features, etc
Jun 03 23:52:40 <k|to> as long as we've got turing machines then there will be _some_ option
Jun 03 23:53:08 <k|to> usually not any kind of reasonable option though
Jun 03 23:53:28 <Elrond> Exactly.
Jun 03 23:53:46 <Elrond> That's why I'm getting more and more pissed by proprietary solutions.
Jun 03 23:53:54 <k|to> which is whey we're all here
Jun 03 23:54:28 <k|to> i think the phone is one place where this problem is most obvioous
Jun 03 23:55:32 <Elrond> Yep. At least to smartphone users. :-)
Jun 03 23:55:46 <Elrond> Another area is handheld gps units. ;)
Jun 03 23:55:57 <k|to> hey, i can write a program that'll intercept calls from certain numbers and do things
Jun 03 23:56:06 <k|to> that could be so awesome
Jun 03 23:56:14 <Elrond> hehe, yeah. :-)
Jun 03 23:56:30 <Jeroen> a lot of other places are already liberated
Jun 03 23:56:40 <Jeroen> desktops/servers, you can run all free software there
Jun 03 23:56:52 <k|to> does openmoko work (make calls) on any motorola phones?
Jun 03 23:56:53 <Jeroen> routers, with openwrt it's free too
Jun 03 23:56:54 <Elrond> Yep.
Jun 03 23:57:02 <k|to> or any phones at all?
Jun 03 23:57:12 <Elrond> (except graphics cards... only the intel ones seem mostly free)
Jun 03 23:57:39 <Jeroen> phones are just the next thing
Jun 03 23:57:43 <Elrond> k|to - It should now really work on the Neo1973.
Jun 03 23:58:02 <k|to> well that's great, except i cannot purchase a neo
Jun 03 23:58:15 <k|to> I kind of need a phone
Jun 03 23:58:44 <Elrond> I have to admit, that I did not yet try a SIM in "my" neo...
Jun 03 23:58:53 <k|to> heh
Jun 03 23:59:02 <k|to> why is this not the first thing that people try?
Jun 03 23:59:07 <k|to> it is a phone after all
Jun 03 23:59:13 <Elrond> Sometime I should go to the local discounters and see, what the cheapest SIM is. just for toying.
Jun 03 23:59:21 <empty_mind> k|to, i dont think so. But there is a project which is working on proing openmoko to motorola's openEBZ paltform
Jun 03 23:59:31 <Elrond> k|to - Because I don't want to toast my normal sim.
Jun 03 23:59:52 <k|to> good idea
Jun 03 23:59:56 <k|to> i've got to sleep
Jun 04 00:00:07 <k|to> I start a new robotics research project in the morning
Jun 04 00:00:09 <k|to> 'nite all
Jun 04 00:01:06 <Elrond> Good night k|to 
Jun 04 00:01:30 <Elrond> Huh... looks like k|to is in germany?
Jun 04 00:01:39 <k|to> at the moment yes
Jun 04 00:01:45 <k|to> for this research project
Jun 04 00:01:49 <Elrond> Ahh.
Jun 04 00:03:10 <Elrond> Good night people. :-)
Jun 04 00:12:10 <empty_mind> good morning
Jun 04 00:12:46 <pdinoto> morning there! (9pm here :-)
Jun 04 00:15:31 <empty_mind> 6 am here
Jun 04 00:33:56 <sixfeet__> counter
Jun 04 00:33:56 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week, 2 days 11:26:00 (9.476±6.0 days) (1394;222)
Jun 04 00:45:18 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[ChangeLog]]
Jun 04 01:02:49 <SpeedEvil> Elrond: Where are you? (country)
Jun 04 01:12:12 <aevin> I think he's from Rivendell.
Jun 04 01:13:07 <aevin> (.ri)
Jun 04 01:14:59 <SpeedEvil> Ah. 
Jun 04 01:15:07 * SpeedEvil adds hardware:wishlist:palantir
Jun 04 01:16:00 <aevin> let's hope Seans reads it before making GTA03
Jun 04 02:38:39 <daMaestro> anyone know what kind of "discount" will be given to someone that wants to hack on openmoko and will buy their phase one device?
Jun 04 02:39:01 <daMaestro> i've read there should be discounts for developers and people that buy the phase 1 device
Jun 04 02:40:43 <SpeedEvil> not specified
Jun 04 02:40:57 <daMaestro> ok
Jun 04 02:42:24 <SpeedEvil> It was said way back that there will be some discount, but this has bever been specified.
Jun 04 02:43:21 <daMaestro> well, basically i've been working on a similar device.... similar to the proposed phase 2 device
Jun 04 02:43:32 <daMaestro> so i am going to get one and start hacking all my bits into openmoko
Jun 04 02:43:34 <SpeedEvil> Fun.
Jun 04 02:43:38 <SpeedEvil> Opensource?
Jun 04 02:43:42 <daMaestro> yup
Jun 04 02:43:48 <SpeedEvil> greenphone?
Jun 04 02:43:51 <daMaestro> nope
Jun 04 02:44:05 <SpeedEvil> url
Jun 04 02:44:07 <SpeedEvil> ?
Jun 04 02:44:10 <daMaestro> nope
Jun 04 02:44:10 <daMaestro> lol
Jun 04 02:44:21 <daMaestro> it has been behind closed doors kinda thing
Jun 04 02:44:29 <SpeedEvil> Suspected so.
Jun 04 02:44:36 <SpeedEvil> Intended for mass produciton?
Jun 04 02:44:51 <daMaestro> the mobile aspect had not even hit a hardware spec, so i'm going to just use the Neo1973
Jun 04 02:44:53 <daMaestro> yes, it is
Jun 04 02:46:13 <SpeedEvil> Fun. intending to run OM - or something else on the mass produced ones?
Jun 04 02:51:44 <daMaestro> it is intended to be a mobile corporate communications device
Jun 04 02:51:50 <daMaestro> similar to what the blackberry has come to be
Jun 04 02:51:54 <daMaestro> but the blackberry sucks
Jun 04 02:52:02 <SpeedEvil> Just slightly :)
Jun 04 02:52:45 <SpeedEvil> Some well designed security model would be nice for OM - lock employees phones in specified ways.
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Mon Jun 04 02:59:56 2007