**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Tue Jun 05 02:59:57 2007
Jun 05 03:41:11 <hakrX> erik hej
Jun 05 03:47:52 <Psi_> once they neo is released someone should setup a website with a world map, and write a neo application that reports your location every day over GPRS, be cool to see where all the neos are around the world :P
Jun 05 03:47:57 <Psi_> they=the
Jun 05 04:25:59 <sparq> Psi_: A bash script should be sufficient
Jun 05 04:40:03 <sparq> `gpspipe -r -n 1 | mutt -s "Location of `whoami`@`hostname -f`" neolocator@openmoko.org
Jun 05 04:43:10 <sparq> er, omit that first `
Jun 05 04:44:34 <overseer> counter
Jun 05 04:45:03 <overseer> any day now eh?  sweet
Jun 05 04:45:30 <cjb> that's what they want you to think
Jun 05 04:46:48 * CoreDump|afk points out that whoami`@`hostname -f` would always resolve to root@fic-gta01
Jun 05 04:47:33 <Psi_> sparq, :)
Jun 05 04:47:55 <sparq> assuming you have mutt and an MTA ^_^
Jun 05 04:48:23 <Psi_> i think your neo should be able to notify you if you come within 100meters of another neo :P
Jun 05 04:49:22 <sparq> This reminds me of something... I think it's Highlander.
Jun 05 04:49:43 * Psi_ notices that his neo is beeping with the message "A Neo has been detected 30 meters to your right"
Jun 05 04:49:52 <Psi_> heh
Jun 05 04:50:13 <sparq> Neo owners will be forced to battle to the death. There can be only one!
Jun 05 04:50:19 <Psi_> hehe
Jun 05 06:56:56 <pavelm> Good morning...
Jun 05 06:57:12 <Mark__T> morning
Jun 05 07:01:30 <empty_mind> koen, 
Jun 05 07:19:17 <nobody96> moin
Jun 05 07:27:49 <Hopscotch> good morning
Jun 05 07:29:21 <pavelm> Hello, hopscotch.
Jun 05 07:29:32 <pavelm> ...seems like openmoko team is mostly using european time ;-)
Jun 05 07:36:45 <hrw> morning
Jun 05 07:37:05 <hrw> pavelm: most of them are european?
Jun 05 07:37:19 <TRIsoft> morning
Jun 05 07:37:30 <hrw> hi Mac
Jun 05 07:37:41 * sparq is on European time, but lives in LA
Jun 05 07:40:45 <nobody96> sparq, im living in Europe, but i havent found my timezone yet
Jun 05 07:46:06 <Mark__T> hrw: at least at this time of day most are european
Jun 05 07:47:23 <Stephmw> mornin'
Jun 05 07:47:46 <Mark__T> morning
Jun 05 08:46:15 <billl_> counter
Jun 05 08:48:46 <hads> I think it's on holiday
Jun 05 08:49:56 <Stephmw> he's probably gone to 'borrow' a Neo from the fab plant :)
Jun 05 08:54:15 <bedboi> hi there.
Jun 05 08:54:25 <bedboi> can we buy? :)
Jun 05 08:54:54 <ewon> TEN DOLLAH
Jun 05 08:54:55 <cheesy> any day now?
Jun 05 08:54:57 <ewon> no, not yet.
Jun 05 08:55:03 <hrw> argh.. yesterday I flashed uboot 2112 and today 2157 is built
Jun 05 08:55:20 <bedboi> ah, i need to know if it will work in the U.S. 
Jun 05 08:55:25 <bedboi> i will be there for 2 months
Jun 05 08:55:44 <guaqua> it'll be a gsm phone
Jun 05 08:55:51 <guaqua> so it depends on the carrier
Jun 05 08:56:14 <bedboi> i don't know that much on US carriers
Jun 05 08:56:20 <bedboi> really.
Jun 05 08:56:57 <guaqua> then you should probably find out which one you'll be using and figure it out
Jun 05 08:57:21 <bedboi> will ask a friend of mine that was there last year
Jun 05 08:57:39 <bedboi> btw going in U.S. is really annoying for the visa stuff.
Jun 05 08:57:51 <bedboi> and very expensive too
Jun 05 08:57:58 <guaqua> depends on the kind of visa you need
Jun 05 08:58:01 <bedboi> 200$ for visa
Jun 05 08:58:08 <bedboi> i'll go on J-1
Jun 05 08:58:14 <guaqua> regular travel visa is nothing
Jun 05 08:58:37 <bedboi> guaqua: i know. Btw I need J-1 to be payed
Jun 05 08:58:48 <bedboi> so you have to pay to be payed
Jun 05 08:59:06 <bedboi> and you have to proof that you earn at least 1600$/month 
Jun 05 08:59:21 <bedboi> otherwise you can't enter the US
Jun 05 08:59:36 <LuitvD> what a nazis
Jun 05 08:59:41 <bedboi> and you have to fill PLENTY of stuff, and to bring PLENTY of documents
Jun 05 08:59:57 <bedboi> also the funny checkbox stuff
Jun 05 09:00:04 <bedboi> Are you a terrorist
Jun 05 09:00:06 <bedboi> and so on
Jun 05 09:00:15 <guaqua> and everything in duplicate :)
Jun 05 09:00:48 <bedboi> guaqua: the bad stuff is that i have to go to Naples (in my city there's no US Consulate office)
Jun 05 09:00:56 <bedboi> and Naples is nasty
Jun 05 09:01:08 <bedboi> it's not visitor-friendly
Jun 05 09:01:20 * kelvinn entirely sympathizes with visa woes
Jun 05 09:02:30 <bedboi> kelvinn: what's the reason behind that?
Jun 05 09:03:25 <bedboi> kelvinn: i mean it's nonsense restricting that much the entrance and then giving guns to people.
Jun 05 09:03:59 <bedboi> italy is a mess, but give people guns and it would become a nightmare
Jun 05 09:04:02 <guaqua> it's easy to criticize
Jun 05 09:04:18 <bedboi> well i know the US is not a simple country
Jun 05 09:04:35 <bedboi> guaqua: i'm the first one criticizing my country
Jun 05 09:04:44 <kelvinn> I'm going to Tibet next month, which means I need a permit.  To get the permit I need a China visa.  However, I'm in Taiwan, and there isn't away for me to get a China visa, and no travel agencies in Hong Kong will get involved, and none of the embassies where my passports were issued respond to the issue...
Jun 05 09:04:47 <guaqua> limiting immigration and fighting crime are two spearate issues
Jun 05 09:06:08 <bedboi> kelvinn: that's insane
Jun 05 09:06:58 <kelvinn> yea -- plus with the recent demonstration at Everest there is a 10-day wait for Tibet permits...  Oh well, everything will work out I'm sure, always does, eh?
Jun 05 09:07:24 <madwoota> bureaucracies rock :P
Jun 05 09:07:36 <balrog-kun> visas (not only US) and generally country borders are something useless inherited from middle ages :)
Jun 05 09:08:00 <guaqua> not really
Jun 05 09:09:59 <bedboi> madwoota: hahaha
Jun 05 09:10:38 * bedboi looking at the pile of papers involved in the visa process on his desk
Jun 05 09:10:55 <bedboi> something like 30 papers.
Jun 05 09:12:00 <tholin> I'm planning a trip to japan. I wonder how much paperwork I need for that
Jun 05 09:12:51 <guaqua> tourist trips are a breeze to most countries
Jun 05 09:14:09 <mjr> yeah; I visited Japan a bit over a year ago, was easy
Jun 05 09:14:20 <mjr> they were just planning to start taking fingerprints and stuff tho
Jun 05 09:14:56 <ewon> last time I went to the US they took my pic and my thumbprint
Jun 05 09:15:08 <tholin> plz
Jun 05 09:27:15 <webjames> morning
Jun 05 09:27:51 <bedboi> tholin: if you travel from Italy it's very easy
Jun 05 09:28:00 <webjames> http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6720547.stm
Jun 05 09:28:27 <bedboi> tholin: if you have to work is really difficult. Japan is very restrictive in that
Jun 05 09:28:38 <tholin> I travel from the european union.
Jun 05 09:28:56 <bedboi> btw, do you know when Neos will be released for purchasing?
Jun 05 09:29:03 <bedboi> tholin: so it would be no problem.
Jun 05 09:29:19 <nobody96> webjames, i like it this way
Jun 05 09:29:21 <tholin> no work. Shopping for manga could be a full time occupation but it's not work.
Jun 05 09:29:50 <bedboi> AHAHA
Jun 05 09:29:56 * ewon is moving to Los Angeles in August
Jun 05 09:30:30 * nobody96 will stay at his desk for at least one coffe more
Jun 05 09:48:22 <tri> hi
Jun 05 09:49:07 <TRIsoft> hi tri, here's also soft :-)
Jun 05 09:49:19 <CM> Hehe
Jun 05 09:49:59 <tri> yes and i'm hard :-)
Jun 05 09:50:24 <TRIsoft> :-)
Jun 05 09:50:31 * CM felt the opportunity of a dirty joke 
Jun 05 10:08:47 <bedboi> ewon: i will stay in Albuquerque in August and September, then in Paris until January
Jun 05 10:10:55 <bedboi> so concerning Neo, what are plans for shipment?
Jun 05 10:17:38 <bedboi> ~timer
Jun 05 10:17:49 <bedboi> ~counter
Jun 05 10:18:02 <bedboi> !counter
Jun 05 10:18:07 <bedboi> ok, i give up :)
Jun 05 10:18:54 <Kensan> bedboi: http://gnumonks.org/~laforge/weblog/2007/06/02#20070602-busy-busy-busy
Jun 05 10:21:53 <Fletch_work> counter
Jun 05 10:22:16 <Fletch_work> ^^
Jun 05 10:22:30 <Fletch_work> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter
Jun 05 10:22:32 <bedboi> yep i read that.
Jun 05 10:24:12 <bedboi> so it should be a matter of days.
Jun 05 10:25:15 <lrak> bedboi: you are holding the flag of quite a bunch of us
Jun 05 10:25:35 <tri> are there allready applications for the openmoko available ?
Jun 05 10:25:58 <bedboi> lrak: eheh...
Jun 05 10:26:10 <Kensan> bedboi: more like 2-3 weeks
Jun 05 10:26:26 <bedboi> damn :)
Jun 05 10:26:33 <bedboi> i need that. :)(
Jun 05 10:28:53 <bedboi> you have accelerometers??
Jun 05 10:28:57 <bedboi> that's VERY cool
Jun 05 10:29:14 <tri> is there allready a todo / calendar application for openmoko ? 
Jun 05 10:29:29 <hrw> yes
Jun 05 10:32:20 <tri> where to find more information about this application ?
Jun 05 10:32:34 <xkr47> a sec
Jun 05 10:33:07 * koen guesses 'http://openmoko.org'
Jun 05 10:33:31 <hrw> http://www.pimlico-project.org/dates.html will tell more about calendar app
Jun 05 10:34:09 <xkr47> oh
Jun 05 10:34:38 <tri> thx 
Jun 05 10:34:52 <hrw> tri: OpenMoko use Pimlico apps adapted to portrait VGA display
Jun 05 10:35:49 <balrog-kun> you would get most information from downloading and running it
Jun 05 10:36:24 <tri> hrw: would the todo/cal app be like the famous datebk app for palm ?
Jun 05 10:36:36 <xkr47> datebk3! 
Jun 05 10:36:37 <xkr47> :)
Jun 05 10:36:47 <xkr47> it was a great app indeed
Jun 05 10:37:35 <tri> yes i like a lot and i would help to have such a application for openmoko
Jun 05 10:37:58 <tri> the pimlico project tries this allready ?
Jun 05 10:38:07 <hrw> I used Agendus rather then DateBk
Jun 05 10:38:50 <tri> yes i know agendus it is also nice
Jun 05 10:39:05 <tri> i think a must have is the "every day todo list"
Jun 05 10:39:06 <hrw> tri: OpenMoko PIM is split to few apps. Agendus/DateBk was one
Jun 05 10:39:29 <tri> yes right i'm specialy intressed at the todo list app 
Jun 05 10:39:36 <hrw> and it is not as powerfull - no icons, colors are done in other way
Jun 05 10:40:24 <tri> is it possible to have a todo list for every day ?
Jun 05 10:40:41 <tri> and would the pimlico apps be the default pim app for the openmoko devices ?
Jun 05 10:41:03 <hrw> no idea for todolist,  it is default
Jun 05 10:41:55 <tri> thx i will now checkout the source and have a look
Jun 05 10:42:26 <tri> maybe i can help that there will be this nice "every day todo list" feature :-)
Jun 05 10:42:47 <hrw> patches welcome
Jun 05 10:47:56 <tri> Ross Burton is not around ?
Jun 05 10:48:55 <CM> Not right now it seems
Jun 05 10:51:40 <nobody96> a make all with the mokomakefile is an epic quest even on a core2duo maschine
Jun 05 10:52:12 <balrog-kun> tri: in some GNOME related channels perhaps
Jun 05 10:53:09 <nobody96> balrog-kun, i think i have found the reason why the gadgetfs switch is on in the config-host.h
Jun 05 10:53:33 <balrog-kun> nobody96: oh, what is the reason?
Jun 05 10:54:05 <nobody96> it works with the svn checkout when i add a -usb to the configure script
Jun 05 10:54:34 <nobody96> maybe this dont affect the config-host.h but you get rid of the usb related errors with this
Jun 05 10:54:52 <nobody96> i will check this when make all finishes
Jun 05 10:55:15 <balrog-kun> umm, ./configure doesn't have a "-usb" parameter
Jun 05 10:55:25 <nobody96> it hav
Jun 05 10:55:29 <nobody96> mom
Jun 05 10:56:07 <balrog-kun> ./configure --help doesn't show it and i can't see it in the source either
Jun 05 10:56:10 <nobody96> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/OpenMoko_under_QEMU
Jun 05 10:56:17 <nobody96> i know
Jun 05 10:56:22 <nobody96> but it works
Jun 05 10:56:32 <nobody96> OHCI USB 	 Works 	 This part is in mainline QEMU. Use the "-usb" switch to enable the controller and "usb_add" in QEMU monitor to attach new virtual or physical USB devices.
Jun 05 10:56:59 <balrog-kun> this talks about a "-usb" switch to qemu, not to ./configure
Jun 05 10:57:09 <nobody96> hum...
Jun 05 10:57:23 <nobody96> then i wonder why it works too
Jun 05 10:57:33 <nobody96> i will try it
Jun 05 10:57:46 <balrog-kun> nobody96: maybe it worked because you had rerun ./configure?
Jun 05 10:58:00 <nobody96> may be
Jun 05 10:58:06 <balrog-kun> maybe you had an older copy of config-host.h left before, i'm not sure
Jun 05 10:58:26 <nobody96> damn... i have to leave
Jun 05 10:59:00 <balrog-kun> see you
Jun 05 10:59:04 <saiam> I'm wondering is there any way to get a Neo1973 for development purposes before they come mass market?
Jun 05 10:59:34 <nobody96> i really need openmoko with a working reminder :)
Jun 05 10:59:53 <hads> saiam: Yes, the release in n days is targeted at developers.
Jun 05 11:01:27 <saiam> So in n days anyone can order it, but it's mainly targeted to developers?
Jun 05 11:02:21 <hads> Correct.
Jun 05 11:02:52 <Stephmw> consumers are a nuisance. but they really don't deserve the lumps developers will be getting :)
Jun 05 11:02:57 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 593 has been created by mickey@vanille-media.de
Jun 05 11:02:58 <cdbot2> * * audio doesn't survive suspend/resume
Jun 05 11:02:59 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=593
Jun 05 11:04:38 <saiam> Will it be stated clearly somewhere on the Internet when it is possible to order them, or should I send email to someone or something?
Jun 05 11:05:25 <balrog-kun> saiam: i bet it will be stated clearly enough, possibly including on slashdot.org
Jun 05 11:05:49 <saiam> ok
Jun 05 11:05:51 <saiam> thank you
Jun 05 11:12:26 <balrog-kun> radio, tv... or maybe not :)
Jun 05 11:13:44 <tri> would build system is used to build the openmoko system for the ?
Jun 05 11:16:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2158 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/openmoko-libs/ (ChangeLog libmokoui/moko-finger-tool-box.c): 
Jun 05 11:16:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: * libmokoui/moko-finger-tool-box.c: (cb_configure): Use bg_pixmap as reference
Jun 05 11:16:16 <CIA-24> openmoko: for compositing pixmap
Jun 05 11:16:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2159 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/mokofingertoolbox: 
Jun 05 11:16:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: theme: add bg_pixmaps to mokofingertoolbox to be used when compositing the
Jun 05 11:16:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: toolbox
Jun 05 11:18:01 <tri> '/would/what/
Jun 05 11:19:33 <hrw> tri: OpenEmbedded
Jun 05 11:25:19 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2160 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: Added some debugging for the journal
Jun 05 11:25:23 <Psi_> im trying to find the datasheet for the Atheros AR6K wifi chip but im not having much luck :(
Jun 05 11:27:14 <Psi_> nevermind
Jun 05 11:45:30 <borg_> counter
Jun 05 11:45:48 <CM> aloril seems to be out of net
Jun 05 11:48:00 <Stephmw> as I was saying, I think he's taken a flight to go stalk the fab plant
Jun 05 11:48:15 <CM> Hehe
Jun 05 11:48:31 <CM> Or steal a GTA02 prototype ;)
Jun 05 12:00:20 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2161 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: gtk-2.6 fixes
Jun 05 12:15:07 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2162 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: Changed liststore and renderers to work properly with gtk-2.6
Jun 05 12:22:47 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2163 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/sounds/touchscreen_click.wav: sounds: add sound for touchscreen click
Jun 05 12:27:48 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2164 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/panel-plugins/openmoko-panel-mainmenu/src/ (buttonactions.c buttonactions.h): 
Jun 05 12:27:48 <CIA-24> openmoko: openmoko-panel-mainmenu: add key clicks
Jun 05 12:27:48 <CIA-24> openmoko: NOTE: While we are developing this feature, to enable the power management functions,
Jun 05 12:27:48 <CIA-24> openmoko: you need to export the MOKO_POWERSAVE environment variable to "yes". Restart the matchbox-panel afterwards.
Jun 05 13:57:09 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2165 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-today/ (ChangeLog src/today-main.c): 
Jun 05 13:57:09 <CIA-24> openmoko: * src/today-main.c: (today_launcher_clicked_cb), (create_ui): Update launcher
Jun 05 13:57:09 <CIA-24> openmoko: code to use g_spawn_async ()
Jun 05 14:00:43 <hena> any list admins here?
Jun 05 14:01:08 * CM doubts that
Jun 05 14:16:06 <Placid> hena: i administrate my shopping list. Does that count? :)
Jun 05 14:22:56 <Rince> intersting
Jun 05 14:23:03 <Rince> http://de.sun.com/
Jun 05 14:23:10 <Rince> and anyone complained we don't have media support=?
Jun 05 14:24:00 <Placid> That device there looks slightly different though, doesn't it?
Jun 05 14:24:02 <Placid> The trim, I mean.
Jun 05 14:24:28 <buz> i think sun just stole that pic
Jun 05 14:24:40 <buz> i mean where would they have gotten hardware?
Jun 05 14:24:48 <buz> or does fic do something we dont know about?
Jun 05 14:24:57 <Rince> well- but there is the FIC
Jun 05 14:25:07 <buz> yeah i know
Jun 05 14:25:08 <Rince> the FIC logo down there
Jun 05 14:25:13 <buz> but they probably figured fic wouldnt care
Jun 05 14:25:18 <buz> moto etc might have
Jun 05 14:26:46 <buz> fic should force sun to port java to moko in return ;)
Jun 05 14:27:08 * buz curses lenvo
Jun 05 14:27:10 <buz> lenovo
Jun 05 14:27:56 <loufoque> isn't there an opensource implementation of Java for ARM already?
Jun 05 14:37:02 <Stephmw> loufoque: without suitable UI bindings it'd be just a minor curiousity
Jun 05 14:37:24 <loufoque> who cares about GUI
Jun 05 14:37:26 <loufoque> it's useless
Jun 05 14:37:30 <Stephmw> loufoque: hence why all the open source java work we've seen here is working on UI integration as well
Jun 05 14:37:37 <loufoque> what's needed for openmoko is just a good terminal
Jun 05 14:37:46 <Stephmw> hahahaha
Jun 05 14:37:54 <hrw> and vim
Jun 05 14:37:55 <Stephmw> you forgot </sarcasm> there
Jun 05 14:37:59 <loufoque> then I'll browse the web with w3m
Jun 05 14:38:14 <loufoque> way better than webkit or mozilla
Jun 05 14:38:15 <mwester-laptop> emacs, of course.
Jun 05 14:38:24 <Stephmw> loufoque: you sound like you might enjoy whistleing ATDT commands to the gsm modem
Jun 05 14:54:15 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2166 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: fixed segfault in 'delete call' dialog
Jun 05 14:54:38 <rrae> hi
Jun 05 14:55:13 <rrae> something what really bothers me is, that there are no keys
Jun 05 14:55:23 <hrw> there are two ;
Jun 05 14:55:24 <hrw> )
Jun 05 14:56:09 <rrae> does somebody knows if something like this will come as a variant: http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wish_List_-_Hardware#D-Pad_and_Buttons ?
Jun 05 14:56:16 <hrw> no
Jun 05 14:56:20 <rrae> shit
Jun 05 14:56:24 <buz> not anytime soon
Jun 05 14:56:30 <buz> which is a pity especiaallly with the gpu
Jun 05 14:57:09 <rrae> games are a big factor how much game i would spend for a mobile device
Jun 05 14:57:32 <rrae> and this totally excludes racing games and the like
Jun 05 14:57:57 * mjr pats his bt keypad
Jun 05 14:58:06 <buz> its kinda sad
Jun 05 14:58:12 <mjr> I _will_ port sopwith
Jun 05 14:58:13 <rrae> well ok, so i have to wayt for the second edition :(
Jun 05 14:58:20 <buz> there would be ample space for a gameboy advance kind of layout
Jun 05 14:58:23 <mjr> I don't care if nobody else can play it but me
Jun 05 14:58:43 * DukeOfURL appears that the GSM unit cannot receive DTMF digits
Jun 05 14:59:03 <rrae> well then make that public ;)
Jun 05 15:03:04 <xkr47> mjr, good luck! :)
Jun 05 15:11:05 <pjz> counter
Jun 05 15:12:23 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2167 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/dialer-window-history.c: 'Delete call' code cleanup; Added a variable, to limit number of entries that are shown in the history view
Jun 05 15:13:44 <Bish> counter
Jun 05 15:13:58 <Bish> no counter anymore :P
Jun 05 15:14:50 <buz> mjr: if nobody else can play, games might be rare
Jun 05 15:15:36 <Bish> games are fun !
Jun 05 15:15:39 <cheesy> Bish: aloril is on his way to mars or something else
Jun 05 15:16:01 <rd_> Bish, *any day* now .. so no need counter :)
Jun 05 15:16:29 <Bish> lol its just like genlop for portage :P
Jun 05 15:17:07 <Bish> rd_: that means work on openmoko is nearly finished? 
Jun 05 15:17:25 <Bish> just like my X11 
Jun 05 15:19:13 <Placid> i want one
Jun 05 15:19:53 <balrog-kun> Bish: no
Jun 05 15:21:08 <Bish> me too Placid .. i think evryone here does
Jun 05 15:21:45 <Placid> :'(
Jun 05 15:21:47 <Placid> I hope it sells out
Jun 05 15:22:00 <Kensan> rd_:It's still 2-3 weeks in the future.
Jun 05 15:22:02 <Placid> Voting with the wallet, so to speak.
Jun 05 15:22:08 <Placid> Encourage continued production etc etc
Jun 05 15:22:43 <balrog-kun> it's *at least* 2-3 weeks...
Jun 05 15:23:01 <balrog-kun> and it's the developer version, which means openmoko is not nearly finished
Jun 05 15:23:15 <SpeedEvil> Hardware should hopefully be though.
Jun 05 15:23:40 <Placid> 1+ for the masses?
Jun 05 15:23:45 <Placid> i.e. not aimed just for devs
Jun 05 15:23:48 <Kensan> I guess it comes down to the quality of the devices coming out of the factory in china.
Jun 05 15:23:53 <Placid> or is 2 the big one?
Jun 05 15:24:12 <SpeedEvil> Apparently - 1+ =2
Jun 05 15:24:32 <Placid> eh?
Jun 05 15:24:35 <Placid> oh
Jun 05 15:24:37 <Placid> ri see
Jun 05 15:24:38 <SpeedEvil> There is not 1+ then 2
Jun 05 15:24:41 <SpeedEvil> 1+ = 2
Jun 05 15:24:46 <SpeedEvil> 2 is the mass market one.
Jun 05 15:24:56 <SpeedEvil> At least that's the current plan as I understand it.
Jun 05 15:25:20 <Placid> ahhh, just updated software
Jun 05 15:25:23 <Placid> Yeah you're right
Jun 05 15:25:34 <balrog-kun> what's the "phase" version of the developer preview phones that are supposed to start selling now?
Jun 05 15:25:38 <Placid> Cool, it'll have atheros based wifi 
Jun 05 15:25:42 <balrog-kun> are they P1?
Jun 05 15:25:44 <Kensan> Phase 1
Jun 05 15:25:45 <Placid> P1
Jun 05 15:25:50 <balrog-kun> oh okay
Jun 05 15:26:22 <balrog-kun> i thought they would make some fixes between the free P1s shipped and the soon to be released ones
Jun 05 15:26:43 <Kensan> Phase 0 are the ~200 devices they sent to various hand-picked devs in mid-February afaik
Jun 05 15:27:15 <balrog-kun> not that i have seen anything wrong in the P1 but bugs are constantly being fixed
Jun 05 15:27:20 <Placid> P0 are the already shipped devices, as Kensan points out.
Jun 05 15:34:15 <Elrond> Kensan - BTW: You said yesterday, that BT hat auth and encryption. Do you know how good it is?
Jun 05 15:36:31 <DukeOfURL> Is there a way to do DTMF detection without an onboard signal processor?
Jun 05 15:37:20 <Kensan> The bluetooth protocol as specified seems to be secure but there have been several succesfull attacks which relied on implementation specific weaknesses.
Jun 05 15:37:40 <mjr> yes, passing the sound through the soc
Jun 05 15:38:03 <Kensan> I have posted several links about this to this channel some time ago since there was a similar discussion if I remember correctly
Jun 05 15:38:23 <mjr> Will eat some power of course
Jun 05 15:38:45 <Kensan> Elrond: wikipedia has some info about bt and security.
Jun 05 15:42:56 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2168 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (dialer-window-history.c dialer-window-outgoing.c): Outgoing calls are also added to the journal; History view fixes
Jun 05 15:52:43 <PBeck> hi
Jun 05 15:58:02 <Elrond> Kensan - Ahh. Thanks. :-)
Jun 05 15:58:19 <bmidgley> Elrond: regarding bt auth/encryption, are you worried about evesdropping?
Jun 05 15:59:13 <Elrond> bmidgley - Basicly yes.
Jun 05 15:59:55 <Kensan> Elrond: There's a fairly good introductory article from securityfocus albeit from 2005: http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1830 http://www.securityfocus.com/infocus/1836
Jun 05 16:00:28 * k-s[WORK] is away: lunch
Jun 05 16:02:04 <Elrond> Kensan - I think, I've read that....
Jun 05 16:03:19 <Kensan> Elrond - I think those were the links I posted last time ;)
Jun 05 16:17:10 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03thomas * r2169 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/applications/openmoko-dialer/src/ (3 files): 
Jun 05 16:17:10 <CIA-24> openmoko: openmoko-dialer: Add --show-missed command line option to show the history
Jun 05 16:17:10 <CIA-24> openmoko: window filtered by missed calls
Jun 05 16:28:02 <DukeOfURL> heh: http://public.cq.com/docs/hs/hsnews110-000002524221.html
Jun 05 16:29:25 <Placid> Jesus. Someone explain the meaning of a Democracy to the American Government please.
Jun 05 16:29:35 <DukeOfURL> hi, I'm from the government, and I'm here to help...
Jun 05 16:29:50 <Placid> lol
Jun 05 16:30:04 <Placid> That's crazy man
Jun 05 16:30:08 <Placid> The politics of fear...
Jun 05 16:30:12 <DukeOfURL> yup
Jun 05 16:30:20 <Placid> There may be radioactive matieral around you citizens!
Jun 05 16:30:28 <DukeOfURL> gotta keep the fear factor up there
Jun 05 16:30:33 <Placid> I'm going to move to Norway and marry a goat 
Jun 05 16:31:09 <DukeOfURL> what does the goat have to do with it?
Jun 05 16:31:51 <Placid> It doesn't talk
Jun 05 16:31:56 <Placid> It doesn't do polotics
Jun 05 16:31:59 <Placid> It just stands there
Jun 05 16:32:02 <Placid> And it's really strong
Jun 05 16:32:08 <DukeOfURL> oh
Jun 05 16:32:10 <Placid> And it's cheap
Jun 05 16:32:12 <Placid> See?
Jun 05 16:32:14 <pengwen> Placid: and it eats you computer
Jun 05 16:32:26 <DukeOfURL> I need a goat to eat the weeds in my yard...
Jun 05 16:32:41 <DukeOfURL> actually, several goats.
Jun 05 16:32:52 <Placid> lol
Jun 05 16:33:09 <Placid> you can employ my wife!
Jun 05 16:33:09 <pengwen> oh, btw Placid hi from norway :) 
Jun 05 16:33:15 <Placid> hihi peng :)
Jun 05 16:33:16 <DukeOfURL> ouch
Jun 05 16:34:00 <DukeOfURL> i checked a few years ago.  the goat herd is cheap, but the herder costs a lot of money.
Jun 05 16:34:34 <pengwen> thats why u need a dog!
Jun 05 16:34:35 <Placid> Why ouch? I wasn't aware that my comment was offensive
Jun 05 16:34:51 <DukeOfURL> to your wife? 
Jun 05 16:34:55 <pengwen> DukeOfURL: his sexual prefs dosnt bother me :)
Jun 05 16:36:05 <DukeOfURL> ok, what;s the deal with the "pad" on the Neo board?
Jun 05 16:36:05 <Placid> no i thought you meant "ouch" to peng
Jun 05 16:36:12 <Placid> yeah let's talk Neo
Jun 05 16:36:17 <Placid> stop tlaking about goats...
Jun 05 16:36:45 <DukeOfURL> do I understand correctly that there's a pad where we can solder-in a component?
Jun 05 16:37:44 <SpeedEvil> sort-of.
Jun 05 16:38:01 <SpeedEvil> There are reportedly pads that expose the SPI bus.
Jun 05 16:38:14 <SpeedEvil> This is 2 wires - and much stuff can just 'plug' into it.
Jun 05 16:38:42 <SpeedEvil> There is everything from temperature sensors to A/D to ...
Jun 05 16:39:02 <DukeOfURL> alcohol sensor?
Jun 05 16:39:19 <SpeedEvil> I don't think integrated.
Jun 05 16:39:26 <SpeedEvil> But you can connect to an A/D
Jun 05 16:39:37 <DukeOfURL> How is a two-wire device selected on the SPI bus?
Jun 05 16:39:48 <DukeOfURL> resistive device
Jun 05 16:39:54 <Placid> That's pretty cool
Jun 05 16:39:56 <SpeedEvil> It's not.
Jun 05 16:40:13 <SpeedEvil> You connect it to an A/D that speaks SPI.
Jun 05 16:40:18 <DukeOfURL> ok
Jun 05 16:40:25 * Herod2k saluta tutti e se ne vas
Jun 05 16:41:32 <Placid> Sorry, what's A/D?
Jun 05 16:41:42 <mmp> Placid: analog to digital converter
Jun 05 16:41:46 <Placid> ahh
Jun 05 16:41:47 <Placid> Thanks
Jun 05 16:42:16 <DukeOfURL> do we have a spare A/D in the Neo?
Jun 05 16:42:41 <SpeedEvil> Not as I understand it. They are almost free though.
Jun 05 16:42:55 <DukeOfURL> a separate chip?
Jun 05 16:42:58 <SpeedEvil> yes
Jun 05 16:43:01 <SpeedEvil> $1-2
Jun 05 16:47:09 <Elrond> HI pH5! :-)
Jun 05 16:53:10 <pH5> hej Elrond
Jun 05 17:01:55 <hrw> see you all
Jun 05 17:54:39 <aloril> (script) planet: Michael "mickeyl" Lauer: Back in Frankfurt/Main for a few days http://www.vanille-media.de/site/index.php/2007/06/04/back-in-frankfurtmain-for-a-few-days/
Jun 05 17:54:40 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List]] [[OpenMoko/it]] [[Category:Hardware]] [[OpenMoko_under_QEMU]] [[FAQ]] [[Wishlist:Determine_Position]] [[FAQ/zh_cn]] [[Widget_Inheritance_Graph]] [[MFAQCorrection]] [[Basic_End-user/it]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User:MarcVerwerft]] and other changes
Jun 05 17:59:48 <simon__> counter?
Jun 05 17:59:49 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 50%) P1: a week 18:00:08 (7.750±6.0 days) (1400;225)
Jun 05 18:18:58 * k-s[AWAY_WORK] is back.
Jun 05 18:19:46 <baze> is there a tango icon for the neo1973?
Jun 05 18:22:35 <pH5> baze: I tried to make one before I actually had the device: http://poh9.blogspot.com/2007/03/good-morning.html
Jun 05 18:23:35 <baze> not bad :)
Jun 05 18:23:59 <baze> why did you stress that you did it before you actually had the device?
Jun 05 18:26:39 <pH5> on the black model the color of the "fic" text is wrong, it is (or maybe not) missing the "neo1973" text and the screen somehow looks a little too big.
Jun 05 18:27:29 <baze> ah i see
Jun 05 18:28:06 <alphaone> pH5: What license are the icons under?
Jun 05 18:40:22 <pH5> alphaone: cc-by-sa
Jun 05 18:41:42 <sparq> pH5: Nice work!
Jun 05 18:42:02 <alphaone> pH5: Great
Jun 05 18:43:47 <sparq> Well, one more reason to hope for 802.11 -- if you subscribe to T-Mobile's GRPS service, you also get access to all of their WiFi hotspots, which are in nearly every Starbucks on earth.
Jun 05 18:44:29 <guaqua> and if we just had a starbucks within 1000 kilometers from here
Jun 05 18:44:58 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 594 has been created by elrond+bugzilla.openmoko.org@samba-tng.org
Jun 05 18:44:59 <cdbot2> * * openmoko-keyboard broen in landscape mode
Jun 05 18:45:00 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=594
Jun 05 18:46:37 <sparq> guaqua: There are 65 Starbucks within 5 miles from my house.
Jun 05 18:46:56 <Elrond> CoreDump|afk - I think, you should obscure the emailaddr before posting to channel.
Jun 05 18:47:13 <sparq> It's actually kind of scary. http://www.starbucks.com/retail/locator/default.aspx
Jun 05 18:47:23 <ewon> 65?
Jun 05 18:47:25 <ewon> jesus
Jun 05 18:47:43 <DukeOfURL> is the T-Mobile GPRS the "walled garder" or is it open to the Internet?
Jun 05 18:48:23 <DukeOfURL> Is it the same GPRS you get with a T-Mobile phone?
Jun 05 18:49:16 <sparq> ewon: That's nothing, though. There are over 250 Starbucks within 5 miles of my dad's office.
Jun 05 18:49:35 <ewon> there are 38 inside 5 miles of where I'll be working in LA
Jun 05 18:49:58 <sparq> DukeOfURL: It's "real" internet
Jun 05 18:50:35 <DukeOfURL> what was the discussion about a month ago about the T-Mobile "walled garden"
Jun 05 18:50:42 <sparq> DukeOfURL: You can opt for the "walled garden" thing too, so that your kids can download porn.
Jun 05 18:50:52 <DukeOfURL> oh, ok
Jun 05 18:50:53 <sparq> can't, I mean
Jun 05 18:50:59 <DukeOfURL> heh
Jun 05 18:51:06 <pdinoto_> hi, anybody here close to gsmd development?
Jun 05 18:51:21 <tri> are the starbucks wifi hotspots free of charge ?
Jun 05 18:51:22 <aloril> P1.5 will likely have WiFi (Atheros AR6K): http://lists.openmoko.org/pipermail/announce/2007-April/000012.html  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Neo1973  http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ#Q:_What_is_the_rationale_behind_the_exclusion_of_WiFi.3F  (WiFi status for P1.5 will be known for sure when P1 becomes available and also what kind of discount for P1.5 is given for P1 buyers)
Jun 05 18:53:14 <pH5> pdinoto_: that'd be LaF0rge :)
Jun 05 18:54:26 <sparq> tri: No.
Jun 05 18:54:49 <sparq> DukeOfURL: They also have a thing called T-Zones, which is a product that I think predates their GPRS product. It's basically where you go to download stupid crap for your phone, like wallpapers and ringtones.
Jun 05 18:55:07 <DukeOfURL> k
Jun 05 18:55:57 * DukeOfURL researching what it would take to form an MVNO organization
Jun 05 18:58:16 <pdinoto_> thanks, pH5.
Jun 05 18:59:41 <sparq> Uck. When I first signed up for T-Mobile, they gave me this horrilble Sony-Erricson phone with a crummy little joystick. It had an annoying tendency to unlock itself in my pocket. Inevitably, it would always somehow connect to T-Zones and start buying random shit.
Jun 05 19:01:04 <ewon> heh
Jun 05 19:01:26 <sparq> So, I'd pick up my phone to call someone, and there would be a crappy Java game infesting the screen (that would 90 seconds just to quit, or would crash the OS), and I'd be $5.00 poorer.
Jun 05 19:02:57 <sparq> The company that writes those stupid games is near my house, just off I-405.
Jun 05 19:03:13 <ewon> bomb them.
Jun 05 19:03:34 <sparq> I often dreamed about driving over and chucking that horrible phone at their building.
Jun 05 19:04:02 <DukeOfURL> what does the T-Mobile data plan cost (on the phone)?
Jun 05 19:04:09 <DukeOfURL> unlimited?
Jun 05 19:04:57 <sparq> It's $29.99, unlimited
Jun 05 19:05:10 <sparq> assuming you have a voice plan
Jun 05 19:05:33 <DukeOfURL> cheaper than cingular
Jun 05 19:06:06 <don-o> does the pre-paid plan (tmobile togo) have a data option? i couldnt find pricing for it.
Jun 05 19:07:42 <sparq> I think you need to have a plan to get GPRS.
Jun 05 19:08:33 <tri> sparq: hm you have a nice neighborhood: 45 starbucks and this nice company which writes these stupid games - who else lives near you :-)
Jun 05 19:08:33 <DukeOfURL> from the web site: "Mobile-to-mobile minutes and data services are not available in certain roaming areas included on T-Mobile's coverage maps."
Jun 05 19:09:23 <sparq> tri: I'm about 1.5 miles from O.J. Simpson's (former) house
Jun 05 19:09:43 <sparq> tri: I also think Linsay Lohan's recent DUI arrest was about 2 miles away
Jun 05 19:11:52 <DukeOfURL> I spent two weeks on I405 one evening.  Not only did I miss my flight, I missed the next one.
Jun 05 19:13:07 <sparq> DukeOfURL: I hate the 405. I hope that someday, LA will have a working subway system, and we can turn the 405 into a 100-mile-long park.
Jun 05 19:13:20 * sparq -> lunch
Jun 05 19:13:22 * ewon plans to live close enough to work to avoid driving altogether
Jun 05 19:13:38 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: "Michael 'Mickey' Lauer" <mickey at openmoko.org> Re: [Fwd: Re: Neo1973 Update!]
Jun 05 19:13:54 <don-o> sparq: amen to that
Jun 05 19:14:02 <don-o> im in venice and walk to work :)
Jun 05 19:14:35 <DukeOfURL> How would T-Mobile/Cingular charge for data on a pre-paid plan?  1MB data = x minutes?
Jun 05 19:14:58 <don-o> DukeOfURL: it would be cents, like SMSes are translated to cents
Jun 05 19:15:24 <DukeOfURL> I have a T-Mobile pre-paid brochure here, and it makes no mention of data.
Jun 05 19:17:10 <DukeOfURL> Here it is--Sidekick plan for unlimited email and "real" Web browsing plus text and IM--$1/day
Jun 05 19:30:09 <Placid> o,0
Jun 05 19:30:14 <Placid> i was in #overflow it seems
Jun 05 19:30:27 <Placid> Is an intel centrino SMP?
Jun 05 19:31:13 <happycube> centrino duo/pro is
Jun 05 19:31:29 <Placid> i have just a "centrino"
Jun 05 19:31:32 <Placid> ibm thinkpad x31
Jun 05 19:31:37 <happycube> definitely not smp
Jun 05 19:31:37 <Placid> (the original, not lenovo)
Jun 05 19:31:52 <Placid> I'm trying to compile & install the rt2570 kernel module on this laptop
Jun 05 19:31:58 <Placid> but i seem to have a kernel that's SMP :\
Jun 05 19:32:05 <Placid> Linux moo 2.6.21.3 #1 SMP Mon May 28 20:29:33 BST 2007 i686 GNU/Linux
Jun 05 19:32:27 <Placid> oh crap worng channel
Jun 05 19:32:31 <Placid> i thought this was #linux
Jun 05 19:32:33 <Placid> really sorry
Jun 05 19:32:37 <ewon> heh
Jun 05 19:35:11 <freskog> I am about to setup a development environment for openmoko. I plan to mainly browse the source and perhaps write something trivial (until I can get my hands on the real deal). Is there any point in building the qemu image, or would it make more sense to compile everything for x86?
Jun 05 19:35:12 <aloril> freskog: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 05 19:39:24 <freskog> that answered my question.
Jun 05 19:51:18 <don-o> freskog: what was the answer?
Jun 05 19:51:44 <freskog> Build for x86.
Jun 05 19:56:38 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Category:Hardware]]
Jun 05 20:00:43 <tri> is anybody building openmoko with t2 ?
Jun 05 20:00:55 <freskog> t2?
Jun 05 20:01:25 <tri> t2-project.org
Jun 05 20:03:12 <freskog> Looks interesting.
Jun 05 20:20:54 <sparq> don-o: Ooo. Venice.
Jun 05 20:23:06 <sparq> Placid: I guess it's off topic, but the SMP thing you are seeing indicates that your kernel is compiled for SMP, not that you actually have SMP hardware.
Jun 05 20:24:06 <Vegar> sparq: I think he was aware of that
Jun 05 20:24:28 <Placid> Thanks sparq, yes I was.
Jun 05 20:24:39 <Placid> Just highlighted a stupid mistake of mine when compiling this kernel.
Jun 05 20:24:50 <Placid> Now wasting time compiling a new kernel :\
Jun 05 20:25:23 <sparq> Oh -- heh. I should read more carefully.
Jun 05 20:25:36 <Placid> heh no worries :)
Jun 05 20:26:34 <sparq> I find it rather odd that my G5 iMac absolutely will not work without SMP enabled, even though it is definitely a uniprocessor machine.
Jun 05 20:26:40 <balrog-kun> SMB kernels run fine on uniprocessor too
Jun 05 20:26:43 <balrog-kun> *SMP
Jun 05 20:27:16 <Placid> balrog-kun: sure, but this kernel module i'm compiling with m-a doesn't like it.
Jun 05 20:27:59 <balrog-kun> Placid: i see
Jun 05 20:36:28 <pavelm> Hi, everyone!
Jun 05 20:36:59 <Vegar> yo
Jun 05 20:37:19 <pavelm> q
Jun 05 20:37:55 <sparq> Hmm... T2 looks very shiny.
Jun 05 20:38:00 * pavelm is thinking about "how to dial from contacts without stylus"
Jun 05 20:38:54 <sparq> tri: I think I will try it out when I replace OpenBSD 3.2 on my Soekris box
Jun 05 20:39:06 * balrog-kun prefers portage to T2
Jun 05 20:39:49 * pavelm does not know what t2 is.
Jun 05 20:40:24 <balrog-kun> pavelm: you could add voice commands in contacts
Jun 05 20:41:23 <pavelm> ...I do not think voice works.
Jun 05 20:41:34 <pH5> I think getting rid of the scrollbar and scrolling by dragging the list would be a good first step.
Jun 05 20:41:57 <pavelm> ...but we could search contacts for matching names (t9 style) while user is entering number in dialer
Jun 05 20:42:04 <pavelm> ...windows actually do that.
Jun 05 20:42:19 <balrog-kun> or gesture commands, with the accelerometers
Jun 05 20:42:25 <pH5> pavelm: isn't the dialer already doing that?
Jun 05 20:42:47 <guaqua> heuristic searching for the contact and most recent contacts in phone and e-mail are a must
Jun 05 20:43:30 <guaqua> so it'd actually differentiate from your best friend and the business acquintance you met 3 years ago and forgot to delete from your contacts
Jun 05 20:43:33 <pavelm> ph5: Hmm, actually my contact list is pretty much empty ...
Jun 05 20:44:06 <balrog-kun> empty lists are easy to search through
Jun 05 20:44:14 <balrog-kun> even without stylus
Jun 05 20:44:15 <pavelm> ph5: I do not see it mentioned in http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Dialer
Jun 05 20:44:46 <pavelm> balrog :-))
Jun 05 20:46:04 <pH5> pavelm: you are right, I misunderstood. but it should be easy to add to the number autocompletion that is there already.
Jun 05 20:47:34 <pavelm> ph5: What is correct way to request that?
Jun 05 20:48:07 <pavelm> ph5: I've created http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=591 ... but I do not really care if dialing with finger is contacts based or dialer based, as long as it is usable.
Jun 05 20:52:17 <pH5> pavelm: i believe that was the correct way. doesn't matter whether it's filed under contacts or dialer, as long as the right people are aware of it :)
Jun 05 20:53:25 <sparq> I always thought the jog wheel was a very nice, intuitive interface for contact lists, but sadly, there is no jog wheel.
Jun 05 20:54:20 <pavelm> ph5: ok.
Jun 05 20:54:58 <pavelm> sparq: :-)... actually I've sees SE P900 with a jog wheel, and it is pretty useless for many contacts, anyway.
Jun 05 20:55:11 <pavelm> sparq: and the "software emulation" on openmoko sucks even more.
Jun 05 20:58:55 <pavelm> hi, hrw :-)
Jun 05 20:58:58 <sparq> pavelm: it's the detalils of the implementation 
Jun 05 20:59:00 <hrw> hi guys
Jun 05 20:59:01 <pH5> the finger 'wheel' would become a whole lot more useful if you could pull it up into the middle of the lower part of the screen
Jun 05 20:59:13 <hrw> jogdial/jogwhell is usefull thing
Jun 05 20:59:13 <pH5> hi hrw
Jun 05 20:59:27 <SpeedEvil> hi.
Jun 05 20:59:47 * SpeedEvil has noticed that PSP analog joystick replacements are $6
Jun 05 21:00:00 * SpeedEvil has another thing to glue onto his neo.
Jun 05 21:00:02 <sparq> the emulated jog wheel is very weird. It took me some time to figure out what it was for.
Jun 05 21:00:17 * SpeedEvil ponders.
Jun 05 21:00:29 <SpeedEvil> I wonder if a non-emulated wheel would be possible.
Jun 05 21:01:06 <SpeedEvil> Put 8 contacts under the corner of the case where the virtual one is, put capacitive sensors there.
Jun 05 21:01:12 <SpeedEvil> No case changes.
Jun 05 21:02:15 <pavelm> well, actually if we use one edge of screen for scrolling... that should be better than wheel.
Jun 05 21:02:26 <SpeedEvil> Maybe.
Jun 05 21:02:31 <pavelm> ...or that "grab list to scroll", google-earth style.
Jun 05 21:02:40 <sparq> pavelm: I was just thinking that. Like a touch pad, but around the edges
Jun 05 21:02:56 <pH5> I'd prefer the latter. Hitting the edge with fingers is hard due to the high bezel.
Jun 05 21:03:12 <sparq> I mean, on the edge of the phone, not the screen
Jun 05 21:04:12 <sparq> and if it ran all the way around, one could do all sorts of fun things with it
Jun 05 21:04:58 <SpeedEvil> If all the phone surface could detect pressure, and angle of forces touching it that'd be awesome.
Jun 05 21:05:09 <sparq> e.g. -- sliding your thumb scrolls up and down, while sliding your forefinger scrolls side to side.
Jun 05 21:05:10 <SpeedEvil> Not currently possible, but awesome.
Jun 05 21:05:37 <BrianHV> I went to a conference last night where MS was demoing a tablet PC interface.  they used a circular, iPod-esque gesture to scroll lists.  it looked very interseting.
Jun 05 21:05:41 <BrianHV> interesting, too.
Jun 05 21:05:50 <BrianHV> last month.  not last night.
Jun 05 21:05:55 * BrianHV dubs self typo king.
Jun 05 21:06:41 <penguin> does apple have their scroll thing patented?
Jun 05 21:06:44 <aloril> penguin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 05 21:06:45 <Elrond> Is it me, or is the current openmoko-footer b0rked?
Jun 05 21:07:00 <penguin> =|
Jun 05 21:07:17 <pavelm_away> Hi, elrond!
Jun 05 21:07:23 <Elrond> Hi pavelm_away!
Jun 05 21:07:39 <pavelm_away> ...and thanks for support in "finger contacts" ;-)
Jun 05 21:07:39 <pavelm_away> ...do you have python/gtk by chance?
Jun 05 21:08:07 * pavelm_away has python/gtk app... running remotely from zaurus over bluetooth.
Jun 05 21:08:13 <Elrond> pavelm_away - My machine got to crosscompile glib.
Jun 05 21:08:33 <Elrond> pavelm_away - But I'm now away until sunday.
Jun 05 21:08:41 <pavelm_away> I'd say openmoko-footer is broken by design -- too small to operate with finger :-(.
Jun 05 21:09:12 <SpeedEvil> I'm just trying to work out where the stick can go.
Jun 05 21:09:51 <pavelm_away> elrond:  I guess openmoko crosscompiling is not "fire and forget" process?
Jun 05 21:10:34 <broedji> i dont know what footer is, but does anybody know dasher? what about a dynamic t9 or such system
Jun 05 21:10:35 <aloril> broedji: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 05 21:10:57 <BrianHV> this was the MS reseach project: http://www.patriaudisch.com/projects/inkseine/index.html
Jun 05 21:11:02 * Herod2k saluta tutti
Jun 05 21:13:16 <BrianHV> they mention the scrolling on p. 7 of the PDF...
Jun 05 21:16:33 <BrianHV> and it appears to be based on this: http://www.cs.brown.edu/~tm/papers/scrollring04.pdf
Jun 05 21:17:13 <Elrond> pavelm_away - It is fire and forget. But it takes ages on my home desktop.
Jun 05 21:18:51 <pavelm_away> elrond: Launch gtk compilation and return on sunday :-))))
Jun 05 21:19:36 <pavelm_away> http://www.patriaudisch.com/projects/inkseine/index.html wil not load for me :-(
Jun 05 21:22:58 <Elrond> pavelm_away - Well, my home desktop is not reacable from the internet except via http. ;o)  So I could launch the build, but you wont be able to get the result.
Jun 05 21:23:09 <Kensan> http://www.patrickbaudisch.com/projects/inkseine/index.html
Jun 05 21:25:05 <pavelm_away> kensan: That works, thanks
Jun 05 21:25:27 <pavelm_away> Elrond: It may still compile on sunday :-)))
Jun 05 21:25:49 <Elrond> pavelm_away - It wont take that long, I'd say.
Jun 05 21:26:02 <Elrond> *uploading bug pictures to flickr*
Jun 05 21:27:38 <aloril> (script) openmoko-neo1973: Harald Welte <laforge at openmoko.org> Re: Accelerometer in next hardware revision?
Jun 05 21:30:25 * BrianHV wonders why his terminal likes to eat "kb" keystrokes in close succession
Jun 05 21:31:30 <pavelm_away> brian: some keyboards give up when you press too many keys at once. I had similar problems on some apple keyboard.
Jun 05 21:32:49 <BrianHV> pavelm_away: it's definitely the terminal.  it only happens on this machine, only using putty, and only when I type "kb" too quickly
Jun 05 21:33:36 <BrianHV> I think.  maybe it happens from other ssh programs connected to this host...
Jun 05 21:34:53 <BrianHV> it interprets "kb" as a backspace.  so "ckb" becomes ""
Jun 05 21:51:11 <Elrond> pavelm_away - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/532298021/ for the footer-bug. ;o)
Jun 05 21:53:14 <alphaone> Elrond: Is that a current image?
Jun 05 21:54:54 <alphaone> Elrond: It looks like the theme is not being applied to your footer... Can you kill and start openmoko-footer manually over ssh and pastebin the (error)messages?
Jun 05 21:57:38 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Phone_Number_Field]]
Jun 05 22:01:02 <Elrond> alphaone - Give me half an hour. I need to get a shower and re-update openmoko-footer.
Jun 05 22:01:21 <alphaone> Elrond: okay
Jun 05 22:01:27 <Elrond> alphaone - Might be, that I don't have the current theme installed. The rootfs is a bit oldish. I install on occassion. ;-)
Jun 05 22:01:35 <alphaone> :-)
Jun 05 22:05:26 <Elrond> alphaone - Okay... running from ssh gives only one line of errors:
Jun 05 22:05:28 <pavelm> I see the "footer goes to the top" feature, too.
Jun 05 22:05:34 <alphaone> Elrond: You need at least r2048 of the artwork package
Jun 05 22:05:37 <Elrond> (openmoko-footer:1125): Gdk-WARNING **: gdk_property_get(): length value has wrapped in calculation (did you pass G_MAXLONG?)
Jun 05 22:05:53 <Elrond> But that one is normal on this phone.
Jun 05 22:06:09 <Elrond> alphaone - Which artwork package?
Jun 05 22:06:17 <alphaone> Hmm, okay. Still no real theme?
Jun 05 22:06:24 <alphaone> Lemme check the name
Jun 05 22:06:56 <Elrond> alphaone - Well, at least the hand-started one is now at the buttom.
Jun 05 22:07:02 <Elrond> s/but/bot
Jun 05 22:07:12 <alphaone> For architecture all openmoko-theme-standard_0.0+svnnow-r5_2122_all.ipk
Jun 05 22:07:51 <Elrond> Okay.. getting it.
Jun 05 22:08:05 <alphaone> Elrond: I suspect that the footer starts too fast and matchbox might not be far enough to place it appropriately.
Jun 05 22:08:27 <alphaone> Elrond: Before you install
Jun 05 22:09:20 <alphaone> Can you check if you have /usr/share/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/openmoko-footer
Jun 05 22:09:32 <Elrond> Huh... I already installed...
Jun 05 22:09:42 <Elrond> But I can check the contents of the old package. :-)
Jun 05 22:10:00 <alphaone> heh :-)
Jun 05 22:10:15 <balrog-kun> actually i saw this happening in every now and then in all the OpenEmbedded-built matchbox-based distros, maybe except openzaurus and poky
Jun 05 22:10:18 <alphaone> Well if it is working now it probably was theme related
Jun 05 22:10:28 <Elrond> alphaone - Doesn't look like it's in the old package.
Jun 05 22:10:34 <alphaone> balrog-kun: Saw what?
Jun 05 22:10:47 <balrog-kun> the bottom bar on top or the other way, and sometimes the background not getting set
Jun 05 22:11:09 <balrog-kun> also fonts size changed randomly sometimes 
Jun 05 22:11:22 <alphaone> balrog-kun: So it could well be a matchbox issue...
Jun 05 22:11:33 <balrog-kun> alphaone: yeah
Jun 05 22:11:41 <balrog-kun> poky didn't have this problem though
Jun 05 22:11:42 <Elrond> alphaone - Okay... footer now working again. :-)
Jun 05 22:11:50 <pavelm> balrog: I see the "random font size" on openzaurus, too.
Jun 05 22:11:52 <alphaone> Elrond: Great :-)
Jun 05 22:11:57 <pavelm> balrog: And it annoys me a lot.
Jun 05 22:12:01 <Elrond> alphaone - And even in landscape mode. :-))
Jun 05 22:12:11 <balrog-kun> pavelm: yes, it's a strange thing
Jun 05 22:12:19 <alphaone> Yay, never tried that  :-)
Jun 05 22:12:24 <alphaone> Good to know
Jun 05 22:12:42 <balrog-kun> pavelm: most of these distros i've only run in qemu, with the same bug being observed, with mor eor less the same frequency
Jun 05 22:14:03 <Elrond> alphaone - That is how the footer looked before in landscape.
Jun 05 22:14:07 <Elrond> alphaone - http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/509749982/
Jun 05 22:14:23 <CoreDump|home> hi
Jun 05 22:15:06 <Elrond> Hi CoreDump|home 
Jun 05 22:15:15 <alphaone> Elrond: whoa. Actually I don't think I changed anything to fix that...
Jun 05 22:17:22 <balrog-kun> hah, i opened Elrond's picture with the footer on top and was trying to scroll the list with the scrollbar in the picture
Jun 05 22:17:36 <balrog-kun> (it didn't work)
Jun 05 22:18:22 <pavelm> balrog: It would be _way_ worse if it worked ;-).
Jun 05 22:23:28 <Elrond> balrog-kun - *lol*
Jun 05 22:23:36 <Elrond> alphaone - landscape mode: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/532254286/
Jun 05 22:24:58 <alphaone> Elrond: Hmm, still looks rather wierd on the right side
Jun 05 22:25:11 <alphaone> weird even
Jun 05 22:26:39 <pavelm> Actually... the microsoft research seems interesting.
Jun 05 22:26:51 <pavelm> ...they obviously spent lot of time trying to make pen work.
Jun 05 22:27:01 <pavelm> ...unfortunately it is targeted at _big_ devices.
Jun 05 22:28:32 <Elrond> pavelm - What research?
Jun 05 22:30:47 <pavelm> title is "InkSeine -- in situ search for active note taking"... it is from their pen computing initiative. Someone posted link here, but I do not have it now.
Jun 05 22:31:58 <Elrond> Ahh, okay.
Jun 05 22:36:01 <xirt> ohhh snap! 
Jun 05 22:36:57 <cdbot2> * * OM Bug 595 has been created by alphaone@openmoko.org
Jun 05 22:36:58 <cdbot2> * * openmoko-footer styling breakage in landscape mode
Jun 05 22:36:59 <cdbot2> * * http://bugzilla.openmoko.org/cgi-bin/bugzilla/show_bug.cgi?id=595
Jun 05 22:37:37 <pavelm> ..actually, it would be nice to find out if apple has some public research for iPhone :-)
Jun 05 22:41:27 <Elrond> alphaone - *arg* The startup problem still persists. After reboot, it's at the top. .-)
Jun 05 22:41:45 * SpeedEvil sighs, and begins to write a treatiese(sp) on accelerometers for the ML.
Jun 05 22:42:19 * don-o makes a note to be sure and read that
Jun 05 22:43:08 <alphaone> Elrond: Does it reposition itself if you switch to/from landscape mode?
Jun 05 22:44:08 <Elrond> alphaone - Hmm. I'll try that after this reboot (I've put a "sleep 1" in the startup file just before the footer starting.)
Jun 05 22:45:05 <Elrond> The sleep did not help.
Jun 05 22:45:36 <Elrond> alphaone - Setting to landscape does not help either.
Jun 05 22:46:20 <Elrond> <-- hops away for shower, now for real.
Jun 05 22:46:33 <alphaone> damn
Jun 05 22:46:38 <alphaone> Elrond: Thanks
Jun 05 22:47:35 <pavelm> alphaone: I believe that header and footer should be merged on the top of screen...
Jun 05 22:47:47 <pavelm> alphaone: ..that would make them big enough to be usable w/o stylus.
Jun 05 22:48:04 <pavelm> alphaone: Is it too late for such a change?
Jun 05 22:48:16 <alphaone> pavelm: Yeah, the footer is quite tiny...
Jun 05 22:48:18 <pavelm> alphaone: finger app closing will need to be solved, somehow...
Jun 05 22:48:48 <alphaone> I'm not sure, you would have to ask mickeyl about that...
Jun 05 22:49:00 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: It is solved now. Just press the power button short in a new image will close the topmost window
Jun 05 22:50:00 <pavelm> stefan: I am not sure i like that solution. That will mean it is impossible to switch tasks (etc) with finger only.
Jun 05 22:50:30 <pavelm> stefan: Plus power button is quite hard to press and it is not obvious it serves app-closing purpose.
Jun 05 22:51:22 <alphaone> pavelm: I personally don't find it that difficult to press the footer buttons with my finger but I do see the problem..
Jun 05 22:51:31 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: The buttan hard to press problem will be fixed. Closing an app by pressing it makes sense to me, but I see the problem with to many parts of the system are stylus only atm
Jun 05 22:53:53 <pavelm> stefan: Ok... is it too late to improve finger navigation?
Jun 05 22:54:29 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: It open source, so its never to late. Just send us patches. ;) Just kidding
Jun 05 22:54:57 <alphaone> pavelm: It's never too late, but I suspect that it wont happen before p1 release.
Jun 05 22:55:05 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: The GUI is still in an unnice state. I'll take you comments into account
Jun 05 22:55:34 <stefan_schmidt> alphaone: Yeah, P1 is unlikely, but that will be without rootfs anyway. :)
Jun 05 22:56:35 <pavelm> stefan: thanks... taking patches... well, I have some ideas, but it looks like gui design was already decided?
Jun 05 22:57:25 <pavelm> ..I gues it is too late for the phase1... but is there chance to do major changes before september consumer release?
Jun 05 22:57:32 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: There were indeed some decision, but it is never to late to improve things or recognize that some will not work as expected.
Jun 05 22:58:04 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i think major changes will *have* to be implemented or the device won't get released
Jun 05 22:58:06 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: P2 is indeed the goal for a sane GUI design.
Jun 05 22:58:09 <alphaone> pavelm: At the moment it's a balance between what we'd like to have and what is technically feasible. We're always open for improvement.
Jun 05 22:58:46 <pavelm> stefan: Ok, I guess I'll summarize my ideas, and post it in form of rant to my blog... it is unfortunately not suitable for bugzilla.
Jun 05 22:58:59 <alphaone> And part of the UI experience really needs polishing to say the least
Jun 05 22:59:13 <happycube> i think gta01 needs a very simple but non-ugly design
Jun 05 22:59:18 <happycube> maybe even a bit retro ;)
Jun 05 22:59:18 <pavelm> alphaone: Yes, I can see the gtk being limiting factor in places :-(
Jun 05 22:59:21 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: Want about using it form of suggestion instead of a rant? You rant way to often. ;)
Jun 05 22:59:43 <happycube> i could see a design with green vga-type text, oddly enough
Jun 05 23:00:10 <balrog-kun> rant < suggestion < patch
Jun 05 23:00:12 <pavelm> stefan: I'm afraid my english is not good enough for suggestions.. I'll try to make some :-).
Jun 05 23:00:21 <alphaone> pavelm: You're thinking more along ncurses, rightß
Jun 05 23:00:22 <stefan_schmidt> happycube: People who buy P1 are devs. We expect them to be able to update the often if they like to get the improved software. :)
Jun 05 23:00:28 <happycube> :D
Jun 05 23:00:29 <alphaone> :-)
Jun 05 23:00:39 <happycube> i'll snag a gta01 and an 02
Jun 05 23:00:55 <happycube> a lot of what i'm interested in is non-UI anyhow :)
Jun 05 23:01:12 <pavelm> alphaone: Yes, if you want me to rewrite "GUI" into ncurses, I can send patches.
Jun 05 23:01:15 <SpeedEvil> Me too.
Jun 05 23:01:27 <stefan_schmidt> happycube: Framebuffer is fine then.
Jun 05 23:01:48 <SpeedEvil> As long as there is some sort of browser, I can just write code that does html output, and not have to think about the UI.
Jun 05 23:01:59 <SpeedEvil> And firefox will work for the browser at a pinch.
Jun 05 23:01:59 <pavelm> happy: Actually, doing black on white would be best. Readability is bad at direct sunlight, so you want to use all the contrast you can get.
Jun 05 23:03:55 <alphaone> pavelm: I'm sure some people would use it.
Jun 05 23:03:57 * balrog-kun is thinking of making an alternative, framebuffer based, GUI, lightweight but entirely 3D perhaps only with meshes draught with straight lines, but really smoothly animated
Jun 05 23:04:21 <alphaone> So why not. It will probably not be the standard UI, though.
Jun 05 23:04:44 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: At some point we also would like to test directFB. It's even possible to use our GTK interface on it.
Jun 05 23:04:56 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: Some performance benchmarks would be nice
Jun 05 23:05:25 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals - though it's not finished. just saved to wiki in case of crash while I leave for a few mins
Jun 05 23:05:35 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: yeah, i've seen the screenshots of GTK running on directFB being its own window manager, i have no idea how that improves speed
Jun 05 23:05:37 <pavelm> alphaone: Actually I had ncurses interface running at one point. I decided it was too ugly even for me.
Jun 05 23:06:14 <pavelm> alphaone: being able to launch xterm with font readable without magnifying glass would even make it feasible :-).
Jun 05 23:06:18 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: it eliminates X, but GTK is said to be bloated in itself, on the other hand it may be the socket communication with X that makes it slow
Jun 05 23:06:27 <happycube> it's hard to tell really
Jun 05 23:06:33 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: Kicking away X and using GTK on the fb directly should speed it up, no?
Jun 05 23:06:37 <pavelm> balrog: Sockets are fast.
Jun 05 23:06:37 <balrog-kun> yeah, unless we make benchamrks
Jun 05 23:06:38 <happycube> most devs are spoiled with even p3-level gear ;)
Jun 05 23:06:40 <alphaone> pavelm: Too bad... The touchscreen is not really good for curses input either, I assume
Jun 05 23:06:52 <happycube> it dosen't have to be curses... just curses-like
Jun 05 23:07:05 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: i think so... but i'm not 100% sure
Jun 05 23:07:11 <happycube> basic gui engines aren't rocket science ;)
Jun 05 23:07:18 <pavelm> alphaone: No, it is not. but I'm not sure if finger-based touchscreen is suited for gtk either, so :-)
Jun 05 23:07:22 <stefan_schmidt> exactly, without benchmarks it makes no sense to discuss further
Jun 05 23:07:27 <pavelm> happy: see tui.sf.net. 
Jun 05 23:07:36 <alphaone> pavelm: heh :-)
Jun 05 23:08:24 <balrog-kun> pavelm: sockets implies two processes, one waiting for the other to send data in, and a context switch after every chunk of data
Jun 05 23:08:30 <stefan_schmidt> In long term, not P2, we will also evaluate other toolkits. Perhaps even a mixture. We will see.
Jun 05 23:08:30 <pavelm> stefan: remotely running X apps on neo is pretty snappy.
Jun 05 23:08:53 <pavelm> balrog: context switches are really fast.
Jun 05 23:09:28 <xirt> you guys are a bunch of nerds, but I love what you're doing. I'd like to develop software for such a phone. I'll sign up for the announce-list and if I get the opportunity to buy one of these, I will! keep up the good work :)
Jun 05 23:09:31 <happycube> :)
Jun 05 23:09:36 <happycube> i wonder how fast cairo is on arm
Jun 05 23:09:42 <happycube> (or slow)
Jun 05 23:09:49 <balrog-kun> pavelm: hmmm may be that's not an issue... i don't really know
Jun 05 23:10:14 <pavelm> stefan: for nice finger applications... special toolkit may be neccessary.
Jun 05 23:10:47 <pavelm> stefan: you want to use gestures, and you want buttons with big active area, yet not obscuring that much space on screen.
Jun 05 23:11:02 <pavelm> stefan: that means alphablending or something. Does not sound like gtk :-(
Jun 05 23:11:26 <balrog-kun> stefan_schmidt: it's still over half a year, i think that's enough time for someone curious to try porting a basic set of programs to clutter or that other library and post some results
Jun 05 23:11:29 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: That was one idea. Using GTK for stylus and another one for finger. But for P2 we stay with GTK. No chance to switch now.
Jun 05 23:12:02 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: Oh, I think we really need this time to get the software in a sane state anyway. :)
Jun 05 23:12:27 <pavelm> stefan: Yes, I see that.
Jun 05 23:12:57 <pavelm> stefan: Would some improvements still be possible? Like bright red circle around button being pressed, so you can see it reacted despite big finger?
Jun 05 23:13:03 <cworth> happycube: cairo 1.4 runs quite well on arm, actually.
Jun 05 23:13:07 <pavelm> stefan: Running vibrator motor to ack button press?
Jun 05 23:13:56 <stefan_schmidt> pavelm: Small small changes to have a better finger usage *must* go in. Just no new toolkit
Jun 05 23:14:11 <balrog-kun> i think we can also count on hundreds (maybe tens) of people to hop on the phones and start sending all kinds of patches in, when P1 starts being buyable, this would kindof multiplicate the half year coding time a couple of times
Jun 05 23:14:37 <stefan_schmidt> balrog-kun: hmm, let us see.
Jun 05 23:14:55 <stefan_schmidt> cworth: cairo 1.4 is the stable branch?
Jun 05 23:15:20 <cworth> stefan_schmidt: Yes, we've released 1.4.0, 1.4.2, 1.4.4, and 1.4.6 already.
Jun 05 23:15:22 <pavelm> stefan: Ok, good. One more thing: Did you notice that on-screen buttons act on _release_ while physical buttons react on _press_? It feels very strange when using calculator. Perhaps finger buttons should react on press?
Jun 05 23:15:30 <stefan_schmidt> cworth: At some point we really move to a newer gtk to catch up
Jun 05 23:15:40 <cworth> stefan_schmidt: indeed
Jun 05 23:15:53 <alphaone> balrog-kun: That would be true if we only needed half a year of coding to begin with :-)
Jun 05 23:15:55 <SpeedEvil> balrog-kun: context switches are very fast. As there is very little cache.
Jun 05 23:16:01 <pavelm> balrog: I'm not sure about ammount of patches. neo is not exactly easy to hack.
Jun 05 23:16:02 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i think that's a GTK convention (perhaps inherited from ms-windows in the '90s)
Jun 05 23:16:38 <pavelm> balrog: Yes, "act on release" works very well for on-screen buttons. But not when they emulate physical buttons.
Jun 05 23:16:53 <pavelm> balrog: I was going "oh, that's strange, I feel calculator lagging".
Jun 05 23:17:03 <stefan_schmidt> cworth: OK, I'll pester mickey|lunch from time to time about it. :) Problem is that also a OE sync is on the list. All this besides the normal coding stuff of course
Jun 05 23:17:11 <balrog-kun> pavelm: it's much easier to hack than all the other handheld devices for which volunteers are porting linux as an alternative OS
Jun 05 23:17:21 <alphaone> pavelm: Actually the buttons should act on release..
Jun 05 23:17:30 <balrog-kun> a magnitude of order easier to hack
Jun 05 23:17:40 <balrog-kun> err, order of magnitude that is
Jun 05 23:17:51 <alphaone> pavelm: At least the power button
Jun 05 23:18:00 * cworth got bogged down in painfully-slow monotone last time he tried getting started hacking on the phone
Jun 05 23:18:13 <pavelm> balrog: lets see... porting linux to new hw is sexy. polishing ui is... not so sexy.
Jun 05 23:18:50 <pavelm> alphaone: agreed on power button. But pick a cellphone near you (not neo). Try to type a number. It reacts on _press_ and autorepeats when you hold the key.
Jun 05 23:18:51 * stefan_schmidt thinks cworth is not alone.
Jun 05 23:19:06 <alphaone> pavelm: Ah, I get it
Jun 05 23:19:07 <pavelm> alphaone: Now launch calculator on openmoko. Notice how keys feel strange.
Jun 05 23:19:34 <stefan_schmidt> cworth: No idea if another scm would be speed it up much
Jun 05 23:19:37 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i risk to say that there's more user support at this point already for MokoMakefile and the whole build system than there was for any of the earlier OE based projects like openzaurus, Familiat as well as for GPE, and OPIE
Jun 05 23:19:47 <Elrond> alphaone - Current bootup in portrait mode: http://www.flickr.com/photos/elrond/532319522/
Jun 05 23:19:51 <alphaone> pavelm: Well, it is a computer, that also has a GSM modem :-)
Jun 05 23:20:03 <Elrond> alphaone - After making footer startup much later. ;)
Jun 05 23:20:10 <cworth> stefan_schmidt: git would have to be faster, yes. But the OE people were very anti-git when I floated the idea.
Jun 05 23:20:26 <pavelm> alphaone: pretty much. but I'm begining to realize that computer + GSM modem != cellphone ;-)
Jun 05 23:21:05 <stefan_schmidt> cworth: Yes, they decided on mtn. It has it's advantages and disadvantages and in the end it the decision of the OE developer
Jun 05 23:21:20 <cworth> "handheld computer + wifi + free-software GPS" is what I'm looking forward to
Jun 05 23:21:38 <cworth> stefan_schmidt: Sure. I'm just pointing out it's been an actual barrier in practice.
Jun 05 23:21:40 <pavelm> cworth: Actually openmoko is a very nice gps :-)
Jun 05 23:21:46 <Kensan> cworth+stefan_schmidt: Linus talking about git - http://youtube.com/watch?v=4XpnKHJAok8
Jun 05 23:22:06 <alphaone> Elrond: So it is a race condition? How much later is the footer starting now?
Jun 05 23:22:09 * balrog-kun knows at least hh.org kernel people are okay with git and have the svn->git switch on their TODO (for half a year already :p )
Jun 05 23:22:37 <Vegar> Happy Hearts Organization?
Jun 05 23:22:46 <stefan_schmidt> Kensan: Thanks, but I'm on a plan 64bit system. No time to get the flash hacked around the problems. :)
Jun 05 23:22:59 <Elrond> alphaone - (sleep 5 && openmoko-footer) &
Jun 05 23:23:15 <balrog-kun> Vegar: handhelds.org, a project much tied to OE
Jun 05 23:23:18 <Vegar> ah
Jun 05 23:23:25 <Vegar> hehe
Jun 05 23:23:29 <Vegar> I went to hh.org
Jun 05 23:23:53 <Kensan> stefan_schmidt: he actually goes some length to explain why perfomance and speed matter... while also calling everybody using a different scm stupid and ugly ;)
Jun 05 23:24:01 <balrog-kun> haha, that's a dumb name even for a dating site :p
Jun 05 23:24:13 <pavelm> kensan: That's linus.
Jun 05 23:24:20 <cworth> pavelm: Where are "make the GPS work" instructions?
Jun 05 23:24:46 <Elrond> alphaone - *G* Now the background on the matchbox-desktop-2 does not anymore have the gradient. ;o)
Jun 05 23:25:00 <Elrond> alphaone - (if you look closely on my screenshot, you'll notice that)
Jun 05 23:25:14 <pavelm> In http://pavelmachek.livejournal.com/ ... but it still timetravels for me.
Jun 05 23:25:27 <stefan_schmidt> Kensan: So business as always :)
Jun 05 23:25:35 <pavelm> cworth: But I believe one update per 3 seconds should stop time travel.
Jun 05 23:25:50 <cworth> pavelm: Oh, I was failing to find anything in the openmoko wiki. Any reason not to lodge things there?
Jun 05 23:26:16 <alphaone> Elrond: Hmm, right... But that's not my problem :-)
Jun 05 23:26:32 <Elrond> alphaone - I guess, it's some xrdb thingy or so.
Jun 05 23:26:42 <pavelm> cworth: I guess I should place those scripts into cvs somewhere...
Jun 05 23:27:00 <Elrond> git! ;o)
Jun 05 23:27:12 <pavelm> cworth: Feel free to cut&paste into wiki... you have my permission :-)
Jun 05 23:27:45 <Kensan> stefan_schmidt: pretty much :) It's quite an interesting talk though. He has some insightfull comments about SCM in general IMHO.
Jun 05 23:27:51 <cworth> pavelm: Well, more importantly, I want to know there's some reliable place to go to find updates in the future.
Jun 05 23:27:57 <Elrond> How many neos are in .at? ;o)
Jun 05 23:28:34 <cworth> pavelm: Your blog is nice and all, but it's going to be hard for me to sift through it in a couple of months to see what the lastest news is, (particularly if others are carrying the torch).
Jun 05 23:29:08 <pavelm> cworth: you can act as maintainer here and I'll send you updates :-)
Jun 05 23:29:26 <Elrond> alphaone - *arg* One of these updates killed openmoko-mainmenu. :-|
Jun 05 23:29:27 <pavelm> cworth: Or I guess I can use tui.sf.net to put scripts there?
Jun 05 23:30:23 <pavelm> cworth: But I'm a lousy maintainer.
Jun 05 23:30:27 <alphaone> Elrond: How so?
Jun 05 23:30:50 <Elrond> alphaone - I don't know. I'm updating openmoko-mainmenu now.
Jun 05 23:30:55 <pavelm> cworth: Or we could keep the scripts in openmoko wiki... but I'm not sure if that's great idea?
Jun 05 23:30:57 <alphaone> okay..
Jun 05 23:31:03 <cworth> pavelm: If I start touching your scripts, I'll definitely start advertising a git repository with them.
Jun 05 23:31:15 <cworth> pavelm: That's always the first thing I do with any code I touch now.
Jun 05 23:31:57 <alphaone> Elrond: I usually flash a new rootfs with all new packages
Jun 05 23:32:04 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i think a page like GPS usage tips / bt usage tips would be a perfect place
Jun 05 23:32:24 <Elrond> *arg* Still broken. :-(
Jun 05 23:32:42 <pavelm> cworth, balrog: Ok, I guess I should have placed it in openmoko cvs.
Jun 05 23:32:47 <pavelm> ...in openmoko wiki.
Jun 05 23:33:14 <Elrond> Anyway. good night people.
Jun 05 23:33:18 <cworth> pavelm: Yeah, I don't really care where the code lives---as long as there's a pointer to it in the wiki.
Jun 05 23:33:27 <cworth> pavelm: Thanks for what you're doing by the way.
Jun 05 23:33:45 <pavelm> cworth: if you copy&paste wiki pages I'll promise to keep them up to date...?
Jun 05 23:35:36 <cworth> pavelm: Will do when I have time to play with this.
Jun 05 23:36:10 <cworth> I guess the development of a Free Software replacement for the binary-only stuff is current in the Hammerhead_protocol wiki page?
Jun 05 23:36:19 <pavelm> cworth: Ok, drop me a mail when you do. Maybe I'll be faster this time.
Jun 05 23:36:29 <pavelm> cworth: Probably yes.
Jun 05 23:37:43 <bmidgley> cworth: with an oss driver it would totally rock to see a working gps on a plane trip :)
Jun 05 23:38:27 <pavelm> bmidgley: You can do that with closed driver, too :-)
Jun 05 23:38:50 <pavelm> bmidgley: Actually I tried that with glider... unfortunately gps lost signal too soon.
Jun 05 23:39:23 <bmidgley> pavelm: in the US a gps that still works above a certain speed is a "munition"
Jun 05 23:40:08 <pavelm> bmidgley: I know. But any plane that goes above that speed is probably a munition, too :-)
Jun 05 23:40:31 <cworth> Hmm... wiki search seems quite broken. Search for "gps" yields nothing.
Jun 05 23:40:31 <SpeedEvil> And you will _not_ get a glider to do that.
Jun 05 23:40:39 <SpeedEvil> (on earth)
Jun 05 23:40:48 <SpeedEvil> search on GPS
Jun 05 23:40:56 <pavelm> cworth: search on agps.
Jun 05 23:41:51 <cworth> agps it is, thanks for the tip.
Jun 05 23:42:24 <pavelm> (perhaps we should put "GPS" somewhere in agps pages :-)
Jun 05 23:44:55 <cworth> pavelm: Ah, some of your scripts are linked to from the Hammerhead_protocol page.
Jun 05 23:45:21 <pavelm> cworth: Those are reverse-engineering scripts, not "use gllin" scripts.
Jun 05 23:45:42 <cworth> pavelm: Yes. I understand.
Jun 05 23:46:49 <SpeedEvil> Added GPS page redirecting to hardware:agps
Jun 05 23:47:17 <cworth> SpeedEvil: Yeah, and I'm editing it as a new page to have some simple pointers now.
Jun 05 23:48:48 * cworth is cut-and-pasting from pavelm's blog
Jun 05 23:49:14 <cworth> pavelm: I was going to wait until I tried things out to help avoid lying---but instead I'll just let you come afterwards and clean up any obvious errors I make.
Jun 05 23:50:05 <SpeedEvil> pointers to where?
Jun 05 23:50:12 <SpeedEvil> the software pages?
Jun 05 23:50:18 <pavelm> cworth: Thanks.
Jun 05 23:50:24 <cworth> SpeedEvil: Pointers to "how to do GSP things".
Jun 05 23:50:38 <SpeedEvil> ah
Jun 05 23:50:49 <cworth> SpeedEvil: The AGPS page is a giant FAQ about what "A" might mean, but nothing about how to just get NMEA data out of the thing.
Jun 05 23:51:57 <SpeedEvil> Ah - that is a lack. 
Jun 05 23:52:13 <cworth> pavelm: Which image contains the gllin driver if someone wants to copy that out for a P0 device?
Jun 05 23:52:22 <cworth> pavelm: And what's the path and filename?
Jun 05 23:52:22 <SpeedEvil> It was written back when the GPS gllin thing hasn't been released.
Jun 05 23:52:32 <pavelm> cworth: You need to get that from phase1 device.
Jun 05 23:53:18 <cworth> SpeedEvil: Yeah. Hence the new page I'm writing now.
Jun 05 23:53:21 <pavelm> cworth: /home/root/DM2/gps . 
Jun 05 23:53:35 <pavelm> cworth: there may be some other sources, but I do not know about them.
Jun 05 23:53:57 <cworth> pavelm: Well, you pointed in your blog to a directory with images. Is it not contained in the JFFS image there?
Jun 05 23:54:31 <cworth> pavelm: And gllin is a user-space program in that directory?
Jun 05 23:55:16 * cworth should just unbury his P1 device and figure this out
Jun 05 23:55:21 <alphaone> good night guys
Jun 05 23:55:27 <alphaone> and gals
Jun 05 23:55:28 <pavelm> cworth: Yes, gllin is in /home/root/DM2/gps/gllin on phase1.
Jun 05 23:55:42 <pavelm> cworth: I'm not aware of http download for gllin.
Jun 05 23:55:47 <pavelm> good night, alphaone.
Jun 05 23:55:56 <cworth> pavelm: OK, thanks.
Jun 05 23:58:04 <pavelm> cworth: what is the title of the planned page?
Jun 05 23:58:14 <cworth> pavelm: gps
Jun 05 23:58:16 <pavelm> cworth: I should get some sleep now, but I can look at it at the morning...
Jun 05 23:58:35 <pavelm> ok, good night!
Jun 05 23:58:38 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[GPS]] [[Talk:Widget_Inheritance_Graph]] [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]]
Jun 05 23:58:45 <cworth> or maybe GPS I guess.
Jun 05 23:58:49 <pavelm> (and don't kill me for those rant blog entries)
Jun 06 00:00:21 * cworth has to run and will finish this later...
Jun 06 00:00:37 <sparq> bmidgley: I'm pretty sure that the "speed limit" on GPS devices has nothing to do with weapon systems.
Jun 06 00:01:15 <pavelm_away> cworth: Just hit the submit button :-)
Jun 06 00:02:24 <SpeedEvil> sparq: it explicitly does.
Jun 06 00:02:45 <sparq> SpeedEvil: If you've got a reference, I'd love to see it
Jun 06 00:02:51 <SpeedEvil> sparq: it's in the ITAR legislation right after kick motors that can drop satellites out of orbit, and right before nuclear weapons test equipment
Jun 06 00:03:02 <SpeedEvil> Yes, it's silly.
Jun 06 00:03:11 <Vegar> it's not silly, it's american
Jun 06 00:03:36 <SpeedEvil> Oh - it's patriotic, and in aid of democracy then. I forgot.
Jun 06 00:05:16 <bmidgley> SpeedEvil: you just tripped a spook filter
Jun 06 00:05:32 <sparq> Ah. The limit is 1000 knots, which is well above mach 1.
Jun 06 00:06:10 <bmidgley> sparq: oh surprising it's so high
Jun 06 00:06:11 <SpeedEvil> Yeah - you won't hit it on normal gliders.
Jun 06 00:06:25 <SpeedEvil> You could hit it on concorde.
Jun 06 00:06:32 <bmidgley> I thought that limit was why my bt gps stopped working on a commercial flight
Jun 06 00:06:37 <bmidgley> just a crappy gps :(
Jun 06 00:06:37 * SpeedEvil stabs the bean-counters that cancelled concorde.
Jun 06 00:07:25 <SpeedEvil> Sigh.
Jun 06 00:08:00 * SpeedEvil needs a good inertial platform output from a mobile being carried around all day.
Jun 06 00:08:03 <sparq> Given that GPS often doesn't work in a car, with giant windows, it's not *that* surprising it won't work in an airplane.
Jun 06 00:08:22 <SpeedEvil> giant - often metal coated for heat reflection - windows.
Jun 06 00:08:33 <SpeedEvil> Or window heaters.
Jun 06 00:08:35 <sparq> Point.
Jun 06 00:08:49 <SpeedEvil> It works just fine in my small car.
Jun 06 00:08:56 <SpeedEvil> Even inside the glove box.
Jun 06 00:09:28 <bmidgley> sparq: it's an itrek m3 (sirf iii) and it had a 3d fix while the plane was stationary
Jun 06 00:10:28 <bmidgley> I figured it would be ok to turn on my bt gps on a flight while they were running free wifi
Jun 06 00:10:38 <sparq> bmidgley: I'd blame the receiver before blaming the speed limit, though. ^_^
Jun 06 00:11:53 <sparq> bmidgley: the cuising speed of a 747 is about 500 knots, so it's below the limit by about a factor of two
Jun 06 00:14:06 <bmidgley> sparq: yeah, I think they like to charge more for something that will run at higher speeds. could even be the marketing department setting that artificial limit
Jun 06 00:14:17 <bmidgley> "for aviation"
Jun 06 00:14:20 * sparq shrugs
Jun 06 00:14:48 <sparq> This is why I want a software radio.
Jun 06 00:15:03 <SpeedEvil> No, you don't.
Jun 06 00:15:14 <sparq> Oh?
Jun 06 00:15:17 <SpeedEvil> Unless you want to change the battery every 7 minutes.
Jun 06 00:15:33 <sparq> Ha ha! No, I didn't mean in the Neo. I mean generally. ^_^
Jun 06 00:15:40 <bmidgley> I really can't wait to try out the gps. I don't even have the binary-only driver ;(
Jun 06 00:16:34 <bmidgley> I wonder if this one will be on par with sirf iii
Jun 06 00:19:14 <SpeedEvil> In theory - if the specs can be believed - it may be better.
Jun 06 00:19:35 <SpeedEvil> Tehre are indications that the driver shipped may not exploit the hardware to its limits.
Jun 06 00:22:18 <CoreDump|home> to put it mildly
Jun 06 00:22:30 <CoreDump|home> IOW the driver is crap ;)
Jun 06 02:00:38 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Accelerometer_Fundamentals]] [[Action_Button]]
Jun 06 02:10:38 <SpeedEvil> Finally. Annoying webmailer timed out while I was writing the accelerometer email. Thankfully I'd copied it to wiki.
Jun 06 02:23:02 <srbaker> heya folks
Jun 06 02:23:09 <srbaker> i can't find the link to buy an openmoko phone
Jun 06 02:23:40 <Clint> which link is that?
Jun 06 02:23:55 <srbaker> dunno.  i want to buy a neo1973
Jun 06 02:24:03 <SpeedEvil> Me too!
Jun 06 02:24:05 <SpeedEvil> Alas.
Jun 06 02:24:09 <SpeedEvil> No linkey yet.
Jun 06 02:24:15 <srbaker> and at one point, i got to a page where i could buy one.  i can't find it now
Jun 06 02:24:16 <srbaker> damnit
Jun 06 02:24:22 <SpeedEvil> No, you diddn't.
Jun 06 02:24:48 <SpeedEvil> You may be thinking of the buying interest list.
Jun 06 02:24:51 <srbaker> ?
Jun 06 02:24:53 <srbaker> oh
Jun 06 02:24:53 <SpeedEvil> But that's not a preorder list.
Jun 06 02:24:54 <srbaker> sigh
Jun 06 02:28:34 <srbaker> damn.  oh well
Jun 06 02:58:08 <summatusmentis> I'm not very familiar w/ the neo1973, it will be fully functional as a mainstream phone in sept. right?
Jun 06 02:59:15 <hads> That depends on the developers
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Wed Jun 06 02:59:58 2007