**** BEGIN LOGGING AT Thu Jun 07 02:59:58 2007
Jun 07 03:00:54 <aloril> yup
Jun 07 03:01:18 <aloril> same thing holds for PC too ;-)
Jun 07 03:01:52 <xl0> Isn't it possible to re the gps module? Should not be that hard...
Jun 07 03:02:19 <aloril> truly open firmware for radio stuff sounds unlikely anywhere until GNU software radio
Jun 07 03:02:55 <aloril> for GPS module I thinks its likely it will be reverse engineered (or maybe GTA02 even has different GPS or maybe they get it to open, core team seems to be hinting about something)
Jun 07 03:04:39 <happycube> someone on /. was worried that fic was burying the openmoko at computex... they only had a small display for it... otoh it's not really quiiiite ready yet ;)
Jun 07 03:06:43 <happycube> oh - *costco* is selling 2gb microsd's now
Jun 07 03:07:02 <happycube> for $37 - that pretty much means they're mainstream now ;)
Jun 07 03:19:37 <SpeedEvil> 4 unobtanium tho
Jun 07 03:28:06 <happycube> yeah :P
Jun 07 03:28:14 <happycube> i grabbed one... they're sooo small
Jun 07 03:28:23 <happycube> *a microsd... not a 4gb
Jun 07 03:34:26 <aloril> funny that 8GB has been announced too when 4GB is not available either ;-)
Jun 07 03:34:55 <pjz> 4GB isn't avail?
Jun 07 03:36:13 <pjz> http://2400217787.monstercommercesites.com/index.asp?PageAction=VIEWPROD&ProdID=217197
Jun 07 03:36:25 <pjz> $68ish
Jun 07 03:37:15 <aloril> pjz: you can actually get that?
Jun 07 03:38:54 <pjz> aloril: it says they're in stock.
Jun 07 03:39:07 <pjz> aloril: I mean, I haven't tried or anything, and if I was worried I might call first
Jun 07 03:39:27 <pjz> oh futz, that's SD not microSD
Jun 07 03:39:37 <DukeOfURL> microSD at MicroCenter are $25.
Jun 07 03:39:52 <DukeOfURL> 2GB
Jun 07 03:40:09 <DukeOfURL> what microSD will be included with the phone?
Jun 07 03:40:16 <DukeOfURL> with the Neo?
Jun 07 03:40:26 <pjz> http://www.macup1.com/servlet/-strse-74/SanDisk-4GB-MicroSD-High/Detail
Jun 07 03:40:37 <pjz> $130ish for 4GB microSD
Jun 07 03:40:40 <pjz> says in-stock
Jun 07 03:40:44 <pjz> froogle.com is a wonderful thing
Jun 07 03:41:07 <pjz> just remember: storage tomorrow is always cheaper than storage today
Jun 07 03:41:37 <DukeOfURL> I read a very discouraging article that said the larger SDs used data compression, that there wasn't more menory...
Jun 07 03:41:41 <aloril> hmm.. maybe somebody with Neo1973 could get one and test? last I heard they were trying to acquire one
Jun 07 03:41:44 <pjz> and if you'd bought a microSD card 6 months ago when the Neo was originally scheduled to ship, you'd be sad now.
Jun 07 03:42:18 <aloril> DukeOfURL: common usage is to store jpg:s and you can't really compress those
Jun 07 03:42:39 <DukeOfURL> Understand
Jun 07 03:43:28 <aloril> DukeOfURL: so I suspect that article isn't very reliable, it would be very obvious soon if they did using compression (like backup takes have done)
Jun 07 03:44:04 <DukeOfURL> but there doesn't seem to be any way to verify the internal workings...
Jun 07 03:45:20 <SpeedEvil> You don't need to.
Jun 07 03:45:38 <SpeedEvil> Nothing can compress random text
Jun 07 04:01:28 <pjz> ideally random text (well, random binary since ascii text really always has a 0 high-bit) has no redundancy to compress out
Jun 07 04:01:32 * DukeOfURL wondering what the qty. 1000 price of the 4MB microSD is
Jun 07 04:03:12 <DukeOfURL> if its $130 retail then it's probably $70-80 wholesale.  it's a significant add to the price of the phone.
Jun 07 04:03:22 <Sup3rkiddo> anyone having problems with "make flash-qemu-local'?
Jun 07 04:04:24 <pjz> DukeOfURL: sure, but if you wait 6 months it'll be a lot cheaper than that :)
Jun 07 04:04:30 <DukeOfURL> maybe we'll be able to specify the size during the phone ordering process
Jun 07 04:05:41 <pjz> nah, they'll probably ship with whatever's cheapish when they're doing the packaging
Jun 07 04:05:56 <pjz> if users want to upgrade, that's up to them
Jun 07 04:06:15 <pjz> cool to think you can get as much flash in a neo as you can in a nano though :)
Jun 07 04:06:42 <DukeOfURL> make 1GB the standard size, with options for 2MB or 4MB
Jun 07 04:08:31 <DukeOfURL> please keep in mind that my target market wouldn't know the difference between a SD card and a ham sandwich
Jun 07 04:09:51 <pjz> indeed
Jun 07 04:21:41 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03roh * r2186 10/trunk/src/host/qemu-neo1973/openmoko/env: make flash.sh of qemu working again after our kernel-image renaming (full version instead of 2.6-)
Jun 07 04:28:41 <roh> Sup3rkiddo fixed. make update ; make flash-qemu-local
Jun 07 04:29:09 <Sup3rkiddo> roh, thanks :)
Jun 07 04:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Bluetooth_Support]] [[Hardware:AGPS]]
Jun 07 06:24:08 <billl_> counter
Jun 07 06:24:08 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 05:35:48 (6.233±6.0 days) (1406;226)
Jun 07 06:34:37 <Ycros> ugh, the counter is useless.
Jun 07 06:36:24 <CM> Well, it's only based on the latest rumours since FIC won't say anything
Jun 07 06:36:41 <aloril> and that is because they don't know it either ;-)
Jun 07 06:37:12 <aloril> well.. I guess somebody might know more, but it all depends result of QA of already produced phones
Jun 07 06:37:24 <aloril> which starts at 2007-06-09
Jun 07 06:42:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Phone_Number_Field]]
Jun 07 06:43:09 <aloril> (or 2007-06-08)
Jun 07 06:45:53 * CM likes the counter
Jun 07 07:18:12 <bluelightning> hmm... the wiki could do with some kind of spam/vandalism protection system
Jun 07 07:19:55 <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
Jun 07 07:20:20 <MacNorth> 'bad behavior' works with mediawiki
Jun 07 07:20:59 * SpeedEvil wonders if simply reverting all edits till reviewed - if the user has no user page...
Jun 07 07:43:57 <buz> mhh this 3d printer thingy looks neat
Jun 07 07:44:03 <buz> could make for sane hull for neo
Jun 07 07:44:30 <hads> 3d printer thing?
Jun 07 07:45:44 <buz> rapidobject.de
Jun 07 07:45:49 <buz> was posted on the ml
Jun 07 07:46:06 <buz> nooow, if one could figure out how to attach a cam to GTA-02 ;)
Jun 07 07:46:40 <buz> then a new shell would make even more sense
Jun 07 07:48:08 <hads> Cool. Check out reprap for an open source project of the same thing. (I haven't read enough about rapidobject to know if it is yet).
Jun 07 07:56:30 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2187 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/pcf50633.patch: fix include file (gta02 rather than gta01) to make it compile when GTA02 support is enabled
Jun 07 08:15:29 <TRIsoft> morning
Jun 07 08:21:08 * SpeedEvil notes that there is light behind the curtains.
Jun 07 08:21:43 <hrw> hi Mac
Jun 07 08:22:28 <LuitvD> counter
Jun 07 08:22:29 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 03:37:27 (6.151±6.0 days) (1407;226)
Jun 07 08:22:34 <TRIsoft> hrw: Hi Marcin
Jun 07 08:23:58 <LuitvD> oh noes, ze germans are invading the netherlands again :P
Jun 07 08:24:25 <TRIsoft> LuitvD: OMG ! Run ! :D
Jun 07 08:25:41 <PBeck> hi
Jun 07 08:26:13 <LuitvD> hi PBeck 
Jun 07 08:26:43 <LuitvD> PBeck: do you know why people from your country are invading the netherlands today? something special ?
Jun 07 08:27:02 <hrw> invasion anniversary?
Jun 07 08:27:18 <TRIsoft> LuitvD: Bank holiday in most regions of Germany
Jun 07 08:27:47 <LuitvD> ah, right
Jun 07 08:27:48 * aloril has roaming idea: what almost all of money from roaming would go to carrier were you are actually?
Jun 07 08:27:49 <PBeck> lol LuitvD ;)
Jun 07 08:28:00 <hrw> TRIsoft: germans also have 'bank' holidays?
Jun 07 08:28:23 <TRIsoft> hrw: Yup
Jun 07 08:28:31 <aloril> your own carrier would then probably want to select cheapest one so they can advertise that their roaming is cheapest
Jun 07 08:28:39 <PBeck> bank holiday means "Feiertag"
Jun 07 08:28:47 <hrw> TRIsoft: I first met with them when checking English holidays
Jun 07 08:28:52 <PBeck> and today is a bank holiday ;)
Jun 07 08:28:53 <aloril> there would be no advantage for you carrier to select more expensive one anymore
Jun 07 08:29:06 <TRIsoft> PBeck: Lucky you. We have to work here :-(
Jun 07 08:29:16 <PBeck> TRIsoft: fine :P
Jun 07 08:29:32 <hrw> today is catolic holiday so thats why you have bank holiday probably..
Jun 07 08:29:42 <aloril> hmm... actually they still want to select cheapest one, but they want price to be high anyway
Jun 07 08:30:15 * aloril suspects competition is not working with roaming stuff
Jun 07 08:30:47 <PBeck> hrw: you are right it is a catholic holiday ;)
Jun 07 08:31:06 <aloril> or ever better: user gets to select what carrier is used for roaming (preference order)
Jun 07 08:31:21 <hrw> PBeck: I live in Poland - country which wants to be more catolic then Vatican ;(
Jun 07 08:31:43 <TRIsoft> hrw: Poland _is_ more catolic than Vatican :D
Jun 07 08:31:47 <hrw> aloril: it is not so simple
Jun 07 08:31:54 <PBeck> hrw: hehe
Jun 07 08:32:25 <aloril> hrw: yeah, there is also "moving call from local tower" to "elsewhere"
Jun 07 08:32:43 <hrw> aloril: operator1 is cheaper for calling back to your country. oper2 is cheaper for getting calls from your country. oper3 can be cheaper to call your yet-another-country friends during conference
Jun 07 08:33:11 <hrw> when I was going to Berlin I asked my operator 'which one will be cheaper'..
Jun 07 08:34:03 <hrw> before fosdem I decided to not ask as they are unable to tell me which one is cheaper to call to British cell number in Belgium when both numbers are in Belgium
Jun 07 08:34:18 <aloril> hmm.. virtual carriers: you select one and they make then various roaming, etc.. selections for you based on your location and receiving/calling/gprs/etc..
Jun 07 08:35:12 <PBeck> counter
Jun 07 08:35:13 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 03:24:43 (6.142±6.0 days) (1408;226)
Jun 07 08:35:39 <aloril> you pay them and they take care of rest
Jun 07 08:35:41 <PBeck> hum why 6 days? ;)
Jun 07 08:35:58 <Herod2k> hi guys
Jun 07 08:36:02 <aloril> testing starts at 2007-06-08 or 2007-06-09
Jun 07 08:36:16 <PBeck> i think that they ship the phone soon, too ;)
Jun 07 08:36:29 <aloril> anyway, lower limit is soon zero anyway ;-)
Jun 07 08:37:06 <aloril> testing could take a week + some extra days
Jun 07 08:37:17 <PBeck> aloril: what is your information resource?
Jun 07 08:37:32 <aloril> see counter page
Jun 07 08:38:29 <PBeck> aloril: what means QA?
Jun 07 08:38:40 <PBeck> quality analyse?
Jun 07 08:38:47 <LuitvD> PBeck: Quality Assurance
Jun 07 08:38:48 <TRIsoft> Quality ignorAnce
Jun 07 08:38:56 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 07 08:39:11 <PBeck> thanks LuitvD 
Jun 07 08:39:11 <LuitvD> Quality check AAAAAAAH
Jun 07 08:39:16 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 07 08:39:22 <aloril>  Quality assurance (its in one news entry topic ;-)
Jun 07 08:39:57 <PBeck> hum 6 months between P1 and P2 :/
Jun 07 08:40:16 <aloril> yeah, but less for GTA02
Jun 07 08:40:18 <PBeck> can i buy the hardware for P2 earlier?
Jun 07 08:40:33 <PBeck> aloril: cool :D
Jun 07 08:40:35 <aloril> see " Late Q3 for GTA02? 2007-06-06"
Jun 07 08:41:04 <PBeck> September sounds great :)
Jun 07 08:41:11 <PBeck> Late Q3
Jun 07 08:41:45 <SpeedEvil> Maybe Q5
Jun 07 08:41:48 <PBeck> i hope we can call than ;)
Jun 07 08:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Main_Page]] [[Phone_Number_Field]] [[IPhone]] [[WiFi_support_in_OpenMoko]]
Jun 07 08:42:16 <PBeck> SpeedEvil: you mean Q1 2008 for P2?
Jun 07 08:43:23 <LuitvD> I wonder which is first... 8g acceleration or broken device...
Jun 07 08:43:51 * LuitvD has no idea what 8g feels like...
Jun 07 08:44:21 * SpeedEvil sighs.
Jun 07 08:44:36 <SpeedEvil> 8G is pretty much survivable for most humans.
Jun 07 08:44:45 <SpeedEvil> but not much more than that.
Jun 07 08:44:49 <SpeedEvil> And only well supported
Jun 07 08:44:59 <PBeck> what is 8G?
Jun 07 08:45:01 <SpeedEvil> Imagine 8 people on top of you.
Jun 07 08:45:08 <ewon> heh
Jun 07 08:45:14 <SpeedEvil> 7 even
Jun 07 08:45:20 <ewon> sustained 8G isn't survivable
Jun 07 08:45:21 <PBeck> oh sorry -.-
Jun 07 08:45:25 <SpeedEvil> Oh sigh.
Jun 07 08:45:27 <PBeck> i have over read that :/
Jun 07 08:45:38 <SpeedEvil> C-mount lenses on the phone?
Jun 07 08:45:45 * SpeedEvil smashes his head on the table.
Jun 07 08:45:57 * ewon passes SpeedEvil the beer and the valium
Jun 07 08:45:59 <SpeedEvil> And moves it to hardware-wishlist:unlikely
Jun 07 08:46:15 <LuitvD> moko wiki: "there are 300 pages that are probably legitimate content pages."
Jun 07 08:46:23 <LuitvD> milestone :)
Jun 07 08:46:40 <SpeedEvil> I suppose I shouldn't put 'are you high' on the revision.
Jun 07 08:47:40 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 07 08:48:01 <aloril> well there are less likely items in unlikely page ;-)
Jun 07 08:48:30 <SpeedEvil> True
Jun 07 08:48:36 <SpeedEvil> But this was on main page.
Jun 07 08:48:42 <LuitvD> ewon: g as in acceleration isn't a capital g
Jun 07 08:48:54 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: lolz
Jun 07 08:48:56 <ewon> ah
Jun 07 08:50:36 <hads> heh, C-mount
Jun 07 08:51:47 <SpeedEvil> It's worse.
Jun 07 08:51:52 <ewon> "yeah, we;ll get that on there, right after the nuclear-thermal battery"
Jun 07 08:51:54 <SpeedEvil> He also suggested T-mount
Jun 07 08:52:00 <SpeedEvil> 43mm ring diameter
Jun 07 08:52:10 <SpeedEvil> with 17mm required behind it.
Jun 07 08:52:16 <hads> Riiight
Jun 07 08:52:45 <aloril> SpeedEvil: many of those were on main page earlier too, but yeah I see your point
Jun 07 08:52:58 <ewon> we need a new captcha
Jun 07 08:53:04 <ewon> "are you smoking crack?"
Jun 07 08:54:39 <pavelm> Hello, everyone.
Jun 07 09:00:06 <LuitvD> mornin' pavelm 
Jun 07 09:00:32 <hrw> hi pavelm 
Jun 07 09:00:37 <ewon> greets
Jun 07 09:01:02 <LuitvD> lol, slashdot: " Forgetting May be Part of the Remembering Process"
Jun 07 09:01:07 <LuitvD> NO SHIT :)
Jun 07 09:01:14 <LuitvD> even I knew that...
Jun 07 09:01:43 <aloril> thinking about writing page about known/rumored/guessed info: reliability indications: decided (like bluetooth), likely (like wifi in gta02), being evaluated (like accelerator in gta02), maybe (like EDGE in gta02), rumor (like *fast* cpu in some future device), guess (like keyboard in some future device), unknown (like camera in some future device)
Jun 07 09:02:25 <SpeedEvil> Oh - need to pull wifi from wishlist
Jun 07 09:02:37 <LuitvD> lol
Jun 07 09:03:13 <LuitvD> aloril: how is a faster cpu a rumor? ... isn't that confirmed already?
Jun 07 09:03:32 <aloril> LuitvD: I meant *FAST*
Jun 07 09:03:38 <LuitvD> ah, lol, okay then
Jun 07 09:03:48 <aloril> and not talking about GTA02 here
Jun 07 09:03:49 <LuitvD> aloril: don't call the 2443 fast?
Jun 07 09:03:49 <SpeedEvil> 4Ghz
Jun 07 09:04:04 <LuitvD> 4? :| that's not much...
Jun 07 09:04:07 <ewon> anyone know off the top of their heads if the moko can do push to talk?
Jun 07 09:04:21 <aloril> ewon: should be able
Jun 07 09:04:26 <LuitvD> what's push to talk then?
Jun 07 09:04:52 <ewon> LuitvD: half-duplex voice coms over the data connection
Jun 07 09:04:54 <mjr> ewon, the platform certainly supports a thing like that, somebody just needs to code it
Jun 07 09:05:06 * buz soooo wants an Asus EEE
Jun 07 09:05:08 <CM> LuitvD: Walkie-talkie style calls that barely anyone uses
Jun 07 09:05:10 <aloril> LuitvD: maybe not that fast, maybe something like 1Ghz
Jun 07 09:05:34 <LuitvD> aloril: like those Via Eden processors?
Jun 07 09:06:20 <LuitvD> sounds like something for a 'not really a phone' openmoko device
Jun 07 09:06:41 <aloril> LuitvD: there is really new ARM core
Jun 07 09:07:21 <pavelm> hi, hrw!
Jun 07 09:07:38 <aloril> can people read "guess" or will they take all items with "guess/rumor" designation as sure things?
Jun 07 09:08:03 <pavelm> There was talk about putting scripts for GPS into wiki... but I can't find it :-(. And even search for "gps" in wiki.openmoko reveals nothing, through alias exists...
Jun 07 09:08:17 <Stephmw> mornin'
Jun 07 09:10:37 <pavelm> hello, stephmw.
Jun 07 09:11:07 <SpeedEvil> pavelm 'GPS'
Jun 07 09:11:09 <SpeedEvil> IIRC
Jun 07 09:12:02 <pavelm> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/GPS is just a redirect to aGPS...? ...aha, not now, it is there. Good.
Jun 07 09:14:19 <SpeedEvil> CM: they are apparently popular in some markets
Jun 07 09:15:01 <CM> SpeedEvil: I've heard construction ppl use it on some rugged phones, but I don't know anyone personally who use it. 
Jun 07 09:16:11 <ewon> nice, moko can act as a BT gps
Jun 07 09:16:26 <ewon> I keep finding things I like about this unit :)
Jun 07 09:17:08 <pavelm> CM: reload the page :-)
Jun 07 09:17:21 <pavelm> CM: I know people using rugged phones.
Jun 07 09:17:46 <pavelm> CM: rugged siemens is popular here, rugged nokia too (its flashlight feature saved my mmc card yesterday)
Jun 07 09:18:13 <SpeedEvil> I wish there was a cheap way to ruggedise touchscreens.
Jun 07 09:18:23 <CM> I know one guy who still use his old rugged Ericsson with the shark-fin antenna :)
Jun 07 09:18:29 <SpeedEvil> And not with flips - that's a quarter of an answer.
Jun 07 09:19:09 <LuitvD> which atheros chipset was it? in gta02?
Jun 07 09:19:49 <pavelm> CM: Like... rugged phones tend to have bad keyboards, but that's it.
Jun 07 09:20:09 <pavelm> CM: Unfortunately normal cellphones can stand lots of abuse, too, so it is quite hard to compare.
Jun 07 09:20:24 <mjr> R6k IIRC
Jun 07 09:20:27 <pavelm> CM: Actually, siemens me45 is _very_ popular here (it even had good keyboard), I was using it for some time.
Jun 07 09:20:58 <CM> pavelm: Know anyone who use push to talk then?
Jun 07 09:21:17 <ruskie> yeah the rugged phones are very nice(I have one)
Jun 07 09:21:45 <ruskie> and mazingly it's keyboard isn't complete crap(imho)
Jun 07 09:22:07 <mjr> I might use ptt but more in an sms than conversational fashion
Jun 07 09:22:25 <pavelm> CM: No push to talk. And push to talk is orthogonal to "rugged".
Jun 07 09:22:52 <ruskie> erm
Jun 07 09:22:53 <CM> pavelm: It is? Why?
Jun 07 09:22:54 <mjr> then, I don't generally converse on the phone anyway
Jun 07 09:23:12 <ewon> speaking of sms
Jun 07 09:23:12 * ruskie has PTT on his rugged phone
Jun 07 09:23:15 <pavelm> cm: Why not. ptt is normal feature all modern cellphones have.
Jun 07 09:23:29 <ewon> how fast can one can type an SMS on the touchscreen?
Jun 07 09:23:44 <SpeedEvil> ewon: there is no SMS at the moment.
Jun 07 09:23:45 <pavelm> cm: ...ptt normal feature everyone has and noone uses, because of stupid pricing.
Jun 07 09:23:46 <hrw> ewon: depends on input method
Jun 07 09:23:57 <CM> pavelm: Yes, but I think you missed a "not" in that other sentence
Jun 07 09:24:11 <ewon> SpeedEvil: crikey
Jun 07 09:24:21 <CM> Besides, I mostly wondered if anyone used push-to-taok and if it's any point to it
Jun 07 09:24:24 <SpeedEvil> But yes, it depends on the input method. There are several proposed input methods.
Jun 07 09:24:27 <ewon> hrw: usual numpad + two thumbs, I suppose
Jun 07 09:24:38 * ewon can touch-text at this stage
Jun 07 09:24:42 <ruskie> around here it's not even available as a service yet(ptt)
Jun 07 09:24:43 <mjr> price is where flat gprs comes in :)
Jun 07 09:24:46 <CM> Doesn't it involve "groups" too, quick multi-part calls?
Jun 07 09:24:47 <hrw> ewon: I use one thumb and T9
Jun 07 09:25:14 <pavelm> mjr: ptt is misdesigned so that flatrate gprs is _not_ enough to use it.
Jun 07 09:25:34 <ewon> hrw: I use T9 as well, but with two thumbs.
Jun 07 09:25:34 <pavelm> ...actually, I was doing "mail-based ptt" with se k700i... sending people emails with voice attachments.
Jun 07 09:26:39 * pavelm wishis pygtk was easy to run on openmoko. I already have an app I'd like to run there.
Jun 07 09:26:57 <pavelm> ...and openmoko display is just big enough for full keyboard.
Jun 07 09:28:30 <SpeedEvil> But you need really small fingers.
Jun 07 09:29:00 <mjr> pavelm, sad then that we'll have to make an incompatible one
Jun 07 09:29:16 <pavelm> speedevil: for my fingers. but you certainly do not see what you are pressing
Jun 07 09:29:18 <pH5> SpeedEvil: or a nice way of error correction (show the character above the keyboard and let the user correct by moving the finger before releasing)
Jun 07 09:29:43 <SpeedEvil> I like my extension of the 'splash' based idea on the ML
Jun 07 09:29:56 <SpeedEvil> drag in any direction, and it starts a glyph
Jun 07 09:30:09 <CM> I'd like to try the HexInput method
Jun 07 09:30:10 <SpeedEvil> pause, and you get a splash of what the options are to continue the glyph
Jun 07 09:30:36 <pH5> SpeedEvil: yes, but the splash should be in some other place than the position of your finger
Jun 07 09:30:39 <pavelm> mjr: Sorry about that.. but I take a python as a rapid prototyping tool...
Jun 07 09:30:48 <SpeedEvil> pH5: to an extent, yes.
Jun 07 09:31:27 <SpeedEvil> The ideal would be to enter whole words or phrases with single finger touches anywhere on the display
Jun 07 09:31:38 <SpeedEvil> How well I can get it working, ...
Jun 07 09:32:25 <mjr> pavelm, was still talking about ptt :)
Jun 07 09:32:37 <pH5> for that multitouch would be seriously cool (if you could control two such splash parts with your thumbs at the same time)
Jun 07 09:33:11 <SpeedEvil> Hmm
Jun 07 09:33:17 <SpeedEvil> Interesting.
Jun 07 09:33:33 <SpeedEvil> For example, 8 diagonal strokes - two thumbs - 64 'keys'
Jun 07 09:34:15 <pH5> of course we serialize, but I think the right hand could already do some simple preselection via muscle memory while you're still deciding on a word choice for the left.
Jun 07 09:34:20 * rwhitby still just wants a keyboard like the Treo 650 ;-)
Jun 07 09:34:36 <pavelm> mjr: aha... well, I'd say that more people can receive voice emails than ptt. Really.
Jun 07 09:34:46 <pavelm> mjr: Voice attachments are quite well supportd.
Jun 07 09:35:38 * pavelm wants a keyboard. like a treo or like or zaurus or...
Jun 07 09:36:06 * pavelm already has a keyboard in his zaurus... and already got ssh-over-bluetooth to run :-)
Jun 07 09:36:15 <pH5> indeed. qwerty on my ipaq's 4" screen works quite well, but the screen is full of fingerprints afterwards :)
Jun 07 09:36:26 * rwhitby did the same with the Treo650, bluetooth over dund for ssh access to beo
Jun 07 09:36:29 <rwhitby> s/beo/neo/
Jun 07 09:40:20 <SpeedEvil> I'm also wondering on the above glyph system on a analog joystick.
Jun 07 09:40:39 <SpeedEvil> After I realised that analog sticks as PSP replacements are $6
Jun 07 09:43:32 <pavelm> ...actually... there should be ~50 neos from phase0 left, right?
Jun 07 09:43:59 <pavelm> someone should "creatively destroy" them -- like drop 10 into bucket of water, drop a few from 1m50 to concrete, etc.
Jun 07 09:44:00 <hrw> pavelm: ?
Jun 07 09:44:14 <SpeedEvil> water tells you nothing
Jun 07 09:44:22 <SpeedEvil> It's going to die in water
Jun 07 09:44:23 <rwhitby> pavelm: I dropped my P1 phone from 1.5m onto a road
Jun 07 09:44:26 <pavelm> ...then figure out what weakest components are, and if it is maybe possible to cheaply improve them.
Jun 07 09:44:31 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: is it now?
Jun 07 09:44:34 <hrw> pavelm: there was 50 developers in phase0. 14 of them does not wanted phase0 phone.
Jun 07 09:44:47 <pavelm> rwhitby: Does it still work?
Jun 07 09:44:49 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: my PDA survived getting dropped in a pool
Jun 07 09:44:58 <SpeedEvil> LuitvD: cheap clone, yes
Jun 07 09:45:00 <pavelm> hrw: ok, so 14 phones left :-)
Jun 07 09:45:11 <pH5> hrw: 13, actually. I only spoke up after the count.
Jun 07 09:45:14 <SpeedEvil> 14 have gone mainly to internal devs AIUI
Jun 07 09:45:15 <rwhitby> pavelm: yes.  the case came apart near the aux switch, and there are some scratches on the ends, but it still works fine.
Jun 07 09:45:33 <rwhitby> so there's one data point :-)
Jun 07 09:45:47 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: as long as you remove the battery from the device, submerge it in clean water to flush dirty water, and let it dry in the air (not in the sun!) it's fine...
Jun 07 09:47:01 <SpeedEvil> LuitvD: yes
Jun 07 09:47:07 <LuitvD> best way is to remove the battery and case, flush it with clean water, dry it a bit with paper towels, and let it dry for 3 days
Jun 07 09:47:20 <SpeedEvil> LuitvD: but other than totally waterproofing, there is nothing really you can do to improve it.
Jun 07 09:47:23 <SpeedEvil> Actually.
Jun 07 09:47:32 <ewon> I've seen phones survive getting dropped into pints of beer
Jun 07 09:47:52 <LuitvD> ewon: oh, even worse then that can happen...
Jun 07 09:47:57 <LuitvD> beer isn't that bad yet...
Jun 07 09:48:02 <SpeedEvil> Vest way is to dissasemble case, flush with warm soapy water, flush with clean water, flush with distilled water, place in anhydrous alcohol, dry
Jun 07 09:48:03 <buz> mine did not survive jumping into the lake even
Jun 07 09:48:05 <LuitvD> coffee is aweful
Jun 07 09:48:12 <Placid> i dropped my Sony Ericsson in to a pint of water overnight. After about 4 months of not using it, it works.
Jun 07 09:48:15 <ewon> christ, coffee
Jun 07 09:48:21 <ewon> what a mess
Jun 07 09:48:25 <Placid> It does shutdown occasionally without being asked to though
Jun 07 09:48:27 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: true
Jun 07 09:48:44 <SpeedEvil> However, simply placing in an oven or a hot place after the distilled water step is practically as good.
Jun 07 09:48:53 <LuitvD> SpeedEvil: especially that alcohol stuff.. that way it'll dry completely in half an hour
Jun 07 09:49:05 <SpeedEvil> A _regulated_ oven set at no more than 70-80C
Jun 07 09:49:23 <Placid> Does distilled water work?
Jun 07 09:49:24 <LuitvD> not a microwave oven XD
Jun 07 09:49:30 <ewon> heh
Jun 07 09:49:32 <SpeedEvil> Distilled water work for what?
Jun 07 09:49:41 <Placid> Fixing drenched phones.
Jun 07 09:49:48 <LuitvD> Placid: distilled water is just to clean any dirt that could have existed off the phone
Jun 07 09:49:58 <LuitvD> Placid: the more dirt, the more chance on rust
Jun 07 09:49:58 <Placid> oh
Jun 07 09:49:59 <Placid> heh
Jun 07 09:50:10 <LuitvD> Placid: so that's why to use distilled water
Jun 07 09:50:23 <SpeedEvil> The hot soapy water is to remove any organic contaminents - coke, ... 
Jun 07 09:50:27 <Placid> i heard that dropping it in distilled water after it's been drenched in a liquid can help.
Jun 07 09:50:30 <Placid> ahh i see
Jun 07 09:50:32 <Placid> so it's just to clean
Jun 07 09:50:39 <Placid> if you dropped it in coffee or something
Jun 07 09:50:42 <LuitvD> yes, it's to get the other fluid out
Jun 07 09:50:48 <SpeedEvil> The then the flush with ordinary water is to rinse out most of the detergent
Jun 07 09:50:49 <LuitvD> just flushing
Jun 07 09:51:03 <SpeedEvil> and the distilled water is to flush out the remenants, and any minerals from the tapwater
Jun 07 09:51:17 <SpeedEvil> It's probably overkill, but is good practice.
Jun 07 09:51:30 * LuitvD fixed his drowned PDA by holding it near a fire
Jun 07 09:51:31 <LuitvD> :)
Jun 07 09:51:53 <SpeedEvil> You should have hung it up nearby using a firewire.
Jun 07 09:51:54 <LuitvD> wasn't the best way to do it, my speaker stopped working a week after that... completely oxidized
Jun 07 09:52:21 <LuitvD> though it works again,after I opened it up :)
Jun 07 09:52:42 <LuitvD> didn't have a torx screw handy when it drowned, so I had to do something
Jun 07 09:53:06 <LuitvD> 10cm from a wood fire for 10 minutes and it booted again :)
Jun 07 10:04:55 <k|to> counter?
Jun 07 10:04:55 <aloril> "/msg aloril counter?" for actual long message, giving short version here: http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 40%) P1: 6 days 01:55:01 (6.080±6.0 days) (1409;227)
Jun 07 10:07:49 <Moo^^> can openmoko act as a usb host device?
Jun 07 10:07:54 <Moo^^> i mean neo1973
Jun 07 10:08:41 <mjr> it is able to, though it won't provide power, so you'll have to feed that elsewhere if the device wants it (as it's entitled to)
Jun 07 10:10:22 * mjr 's solar charger just arrived in mail, and seems to happily recharge my current phone as well as USB-charging devices, which is nice. Also occured to me that with a properly wired three-pronged USB cable I can also use it to feed a USB gadget if need be
Jun 07 10:10:36 <mjr> just that it seems I'll have to dust off my soldering iron to get such a cable...
Jun 07 10:10:36 <ewon> mjr: nice
Jun 07 10:10:39 <ewon> mjr: url?
Jun 07 10:10:59 * ewon reckons such a charger could be usable in the LA sunshine
Jun 07 10:12:49 <mjr> seems to be one of this kinds of things: http://cgi.ebay.com/Solar-Power-Panel-Portable-Charger-for-7370-N70-N80-N95_W0QQitemZ180127175176QQihZ008QQcategoryZ78859QQrdZ1QQcmdZViewItem
Jun 07 10:13:54 <mjr> probably the solar part is more useful there than here, though right now I can get something out of the sun here too :]
Jun 07 10:14:06 <mjr> key is that it'll also charge off USB and the wall if need be
Jun 07 10:14:53 <mjr> so even in Finland it's useful as a spare current source year-round
Jun 07 10:16:36 <ewon> nice... think I'll pick one up when I hit LA
Jun 07 10:16:58 <pavelm> ....downloading 28mb jffs images can be dangerous for your net connection...
Jun 07 10:17:09 <hrw> pavelm: really?
Jun 07 10:17:24 <ewon> depends on the net connection :)
Jun 07 10:19:41 <pavelm> hrw: edge tends to crash n6230.
Jun 07 10:20:17 <ewon> hope you have a cheap data plan
Jun 07 10:20:30 <ewon> I've found a lot of nokias don't do well under heavy data load
Jun 07 10:20:43 <ewon> my 6230i loses the plot if I get an incoming call when it's acting as a BT modem
Jun 07 10:20:54 <pavelm> hrw: non-edge and dns times out.
Jun 07 10:21:01 <hrw> I had 6310i and decided that no more nokias
Jun 07 10:21:11 <pavelm> ewon: actually the nokia is pretty stable... SEs were worse.
Jun 07 10:21:55 <pavelm> ewon: unlimited data, yes.
Jun 07 10:23:44 <ewon> pavelm: unlimited data plan.. nice.. such a thing does not exist in Ireland :(
Jun 07 10:24:00 <ewon> cheapest here is 20eur a month, cap of 10gigs
Jun 07 10:24:11 <ewon> and that's only 3G
Jun 07 10:24:19 <ewon> if you can find coverage :)
Jun 07 10:24:31 <pavelm> ewon: we have pretty bad landline infrastructure. That leads to very good wireless infrastructure.
Jun 07 10:25:01 <pavelm> ewon: $30 is unlimited gprs/edge/3G... not sure if they slow you down as a "fair use", but that is not happening for me.
Jun 07 10:25:35 <pavelm> ok, I'll have to go. Bye bye!
Jun 07 10:27:07 <mjr> 10 gig cap doesn't sound too bad though...
Jun 07 10:27:23 <mjr> if you don't use it as your primary net connection :]
Jun 07 10:28:49 <pavelm> mjr: That's the point. I use Edge as my primary net connection. And many people in czech republic use cdma in similar way.
Jun 07 10:30:38 <hrw> pavelm: cdma?
Jun 07 10:30:51 <hrw> pavelm: not csd or gprs rather?
Jun 07 10:31:28 <mjr> I see
Jun 07 10:32:21 <mjr> well, I'm not arguing that an unlimited plan vs. 10 gig plan is bad anyway :]
Jun 07 10:34:15 <ewon> the 10 gig / 20 eur only came in in the last month
Jun 07 10:34:21 <ewon> before that it was .09c / k
Jun 07 10:34:37 <ewon> I'm moving to the US in august anyway, so I don't think I'll bother
Jun 07 10:35:46 <mjr> yeah
Jun 07 10:36:05 * Stephmw comforts ewon 
Jun 07 10:36:18 <hrw> here in Poland each operator has some kind of limit.. 1-3GB and then you will get low speed.
Jun 07 10:36:54 <hrw> my operator has option where I pay 20 pln (~5eur) for 50MB and then 0.06 pln/50KB
Jun 07 10:37:17 <mjr> (still 10 euros here for 128k bw cap, otherwise unlimited; more for more bandwidth obviously, but it's available, and marketed partly also as a replacement for wired internet)
Jun 07 10:38:27 <hrw> or 30eur per flat rate with speedlimit after 4GB
Jun 07 10:38:41 <hrw> hi Pierre
Jun 07 10:38:51 <ossman> g'day
Jun 07 10:41:47 <hrw> ossman: is there any support for MMC over SPI in 2.6? 
Jun 07 10:42:04 <ossman> nope
Jun 07 10:42:17 <ossman> it's in the works though
Jun 07 10:42:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Translation]] [[Wishlist:Unlikely]] [[Sample_Native-Finger_Application]] [[User:Flerchjj]] [[User_talk:Flerchjj]] [[User_talk:Speedevil]] [[GPS]] [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]] [[Liver_transplant]] [[Current_events]]
Jun 07 10:43:55 <ossman> liver transplant?!
Jun 07 10:44:20 <hrw> hardcore usage
Jun 07 10:44:38 <hrw> someone watched too much Monty Python's Sense of Life ;)
Jun 07 10:48:22 <hrw> ossman: any place where it can be fetched? we have one pda with mmc over spi and use older patch to handle it
Jun 07 10:49:04 <ossman> check spi-devel list archives this tuesday
Jun 07 10:49:10 <hrw> ok
Jun 07 10:50:26 <hrw> I will point our kernel hacker to it. THX
Jun 07 10:52:57 <ossman> hrw, np
Jun 07 11:18:57 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03njp * r2188 10/trunk/src/target/OM-2007/artwork/themes/openmoko-standard/gtk-2.0/gtkbutton: Adjust border property for smaller sized gtkbutton_p.png pixmap; Stop pixmap engine segfaulting on the neo
Jun 07 11:39:31 <mickeyl> njpatel: care to explain that in more detail, please?
Jun 07 11:40:14 <njpatel> mickeyl: sorry?
Jun 07 11:40:15 <aloril> njpatel: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 07 11:40:40 * aloril needs to adjust this trigger
Jun 07 11:41:20 <mickeyl> njpatel: i'd like to know why adjusting the border property stops the pixmap engine from segfaulting
Jun 07 11:41:26 <mickeyl> just for the records, you know
Jun 07 11:41:35 <SpeedEvil> ossman: liver transplant was a page about liver transplants. I wiped it.
Jun 07 11:42:55 <njpatel> mickeyl: Oh, sorry :). Well, between Thomas and I, what we found out is that because gtkbutton_p.png (the prelight button), is oonly 43px, rather than 44px of gtkbutton.ng
Jun 07 11:42:59 <njpatel> ..
Jun 07 11:44:17 <barmeier> hi
Jun 07 11:44:44 <njpatel> ...you cannot use the same border decleration, you need to take 1px off the bottom 'padding' ie { 22, 33, 18, 25} becomes { 22, 33, 18, 24 }, other wise when the pixmap engine slices up the pixmap (to figure out where it needs to stretch from), there is no pixbuf left to stretch
Jun 07 11:44:45 <mickeyl> njpatel: ooh, that's all? heh
Jun 07 11:45:00 <mickeyl> njpatel: ok, cool. thanks
Jun 07 11:45:11 <njpatel> mickeyl: np :)
Jun 07 11:55:07 <PBeck> hey mickeyl. Cool Presentation on the LinuxTag. I heard the mp3 and look at your presentation ;)
Jun 07 11:57:44 <PBeck> presentation-slides ;)
Jun 07 11:57:46 <mickeyl> thanks PBeck :)
Jun 07 11:58:03 <mickeyl> almost like a video then :)
Jun 07 11:58:05 <PBeck> mickeyl: GTA_02 is great :)
Jun 07 11:58:12 <PBeck> yes right ;)
Jun 07 11:58:34 <mickeyl> yeah. looking forward to get this thing done. this is competitive hardware after all
Jun 07 11:58:34 <hrw> mickeyl's powerpoint skills are high
Jun 07 11:58:39 <mickeyl> haha
Jun 07 11:58:45 <mickeyl> ~lart hrw for disclosing my presentation program
Jun 07 11:58:45 * apt whacks hrw with the cluebat for disclosing my presentation program
Jun 07 11:58:58 <hrw> ;D
Jun 07 11:59:01 <mickeyl> :D
Jun 07 11:59:10 <PBeck> mickeyl: which programm you use for your presentation?
Jun 07 11:59:29 <CM> Hehe
Jun 07 11:59:30 <mickeyl> i'm afraid it's evil windows software
Jun 07 11:59:34 <PBeck> *which programm use you to create your presentation ;)
Jun 07 11:59:52 <mickeyl> you know i have worked on a presentation program since long
Jun 07 11:59:57 <mickeyl> but then OpenMoko came
Jun 07 12:00:11 <PBeck> i create my presentation with latex-beamer :>
Jun 07 12:00:22 <PBeck> mickeyl: which?
Jun 07 12:00:29 <hrw> I use openoffice.org writer or impress
Jun 07 12:00:36 <mickeyl> ya, used latex-beamer for some presentations as well. it's cool, but some things take very long
Jun 07 12:00:50 <mickeyl> PBeck: never published. a showcase for my efl++ wrapper
Jun 07 12:01:04 <PBeck> mickeyl: yes thats rights. Only Text presentation are very easy
Jun 07 12:01:10 <PBeck> ah o
Jun 07 12:01:11 <PBeck> k
Jun 07 12:01:32 <mickeyl> the end goal is to have the Neo present the slides
Jun 07 12:01:39 <mickeyl> using a USB->VGA adapter
Jun 07 12:01:46 <mickeyl> w/ gta02 this might work
Jun 07 12:01:52 <hrw> mickeyl: gta02 is OTG?
Jun 07 12:02:05 <mickeyl> hrw: i hope so.
Jun 07 12:02:10 <CM> mickeyl: And Powerpoint on wine? ;)
Jun 07 12:02:20 <PBeck> mickeyl: is the decision to edge already fallen?
Jun 07 12:02:25 <hrw> CM: powerpoint on qemu running vista
Jun 07 12:02:32 <PBeck> hum is this sentence right? :>
Jun 07 12:02:51 <PBeck> hrw: what is OTG?
Jun 07 12:02:53 <mickeyl> PBeck: tbh, i don't know. 
Jun 07 12:03:02 <PBeck> tbh?
Jun 07 12:03:09 <CM> To be honest
Jun 07 12:03:12 <Vegar> tbh = to be honest
Jun 07 12:03:12 <Vegar> otg = on the go
Jun 07 12:03:47 <PBeck> and what means than gta02 on the go?
Jun 07 12:03:55 <PBeck> you mean the mass market phone?
Jun 07 12:04:18 <Vegar> (USB OTG is a way for USB devices to communicate with eachother without a host, IIRC)
Jun 07 12:04:26 <PBeck> mickeyl: the neo should present the slides with your programm? 
Jun 07 12:04:33 <mickeyl> PBeck: yes
Jun 07 12:04:40 <hrw> OTG devices are host/device switchable
Jun 07 12:04:42 <PBeck> -m
Jun 07 12:04:43 <mickeyl> PBeck: rendering the slides in runtime
Jun 07 12:04:59 <PBeck> hrw and Vegar ah ok thanks
Jun 07 12:05:12 <PBeck> mickeyl: which formats knows your program?
Jun 07 12:05:40 <mickeyl> PBeck: last time i checked some simple xml formatted description
Jun 07 12:05:51 <PBeck> *file format
Jun 07 12:06:03 <mickeyl> it's been a long time since i last worked on that sigh
Jun 07 12:06:17 <PBeck> ah ok
Jun 07 12:06:18 <mickeyl> i even don't know where i have the latest efl++ code
Jun 07 12:06:26 <mickeyl> probably on ltg
Jun 07 12:06:41 <PBeck> which pdf-reader will be used?
Jun 07 12:08:22 <PBeck> mickeyl: a good pdf-reader is very important i think :)
Jun 07 12:09:02 <mickeyl> there's some that should only require minor adaption. evince, epdf2
Jun 07 12:09:51 <PBeck> evince would be very cool :)
Jun 07 12:10:21 <mickeyl> epdf2 is somewhat lighter
Jun 07 12:10:28 <mickeyl> anything poppler based
Jun 07 12:10:35 <PBeck> is evince easy to port? What changes musst be do? i am not a programer till now ;)
Jun 07 12:10:45 <PBeck> evince is poppler based too
Jun 07 12:10:47 <hrw> PBeck: s/port/compile?
Jun 07 12:10:56 <mickeyl> evince and epdf2 would more or less "just" some UI adaptations
Jun 07 12:11:02 <mickeyl> +need
Jun 07 12:11:06 <hrw> "bitbake evince" in normal situation apply
Jun 07 12:11:14 <hrw> but for neo we need other UI
Jun 07 12:11:55 <PBeck> hrw: hm evince runs with a new compile for the processor of the neo? Without changes?
Jun 07 12:12:11 <PBeck> ah ok :/
Jun 07 12:13:24 <PBeck> hm i learn at time python ;) Perhaps i can later help and learn c :P
Jun 07 12:13:47 <balrog-kun> PBeck: it should run without changes, it's the UI look
Jun 07 12:13:59 <PBeck> balrog-kun: ah ok :)
Jun 07 12:14:12 <PBeck> mickeyl: we need #openmoko-de with my bad english ;)
Jun 07 12:14:58 <ynezz> there are python bindings for OM UI?
Jun 07 12:14:59 <PBeck> please correct me ;)
Jun 07 12:15:14 <balrog-kun> njpatel: thanks - that gtkbutton change fixed openmoko-dialer too
Jun 07 12:15:17 <PBeck> when i have mistakes in my sentences ;)
Jun 07 12:15:39 <njpatel> balrog-kun: np :) 
Jun 07 12:15:45 <mickeyl> PBeck: hehe. yeah, sooner or later we might want to have a localized channel. doesn't make much sense before the devices are out though
Jun 07 12:15:52 <balrog-kun> njpatel: do you close the bug?
Jun 07 12:15:59 <balrog-kun> err, s/you/i/
Jun 07 12:16:07 <balrog-kun> evil xchat
Jun 07 12:16:22 <njpatel> balrog-kun: I was waiting for the person who opened it to confirm...
Jun 07 12:16:30 * mickeyl finally settles on one audio API
Jun 07 12:16:35 <mickeyl> (low-level, that is)
Jun 07 12:16:49 <PBeck> mickeyl: hrhr ;) yes you are right ;) I only hope that all understand my english ;)
Jun 07 12:16:52 <balrog-kun> njpatel: oh i opened it
Jun 07 12:17:06 <njpatel> balrog-kun: oh, lol, okay then I'll close it :)
Jun 07 12:20:41 <aloril> counter_msg http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%)
Jun 07 12:20:41 <aloril> aloril changed counter prefix message to http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) 
Jun 07 12:22:52 <Kensan> Something should be done about the spamming problem on the wiki.
Jun 07 12:23:14 <SpeedEvil> my 'revert vandalism' finger is getting tired.
Jun 07 12:23:43 <DukeOfURL> do we know who is spamming?
Jun 07 12:23:49 <DukeOfURL> or is it automated?
Jun 07 12:24:11 <SpeedEvil> It seems to follow two patterns
Jun 07 12:24:19 <SpeedEvil> one - user registers and puts on porn spams
Jun 07 12:24:25 <SpeedEvil> and another that seems more automated
Jun 07 12:24:40 <SpeedEvil> which may do trivial changes to pages, that are benign.
Jun 07 12:24:41 <Kensan> SpeedEvil, the random deletion of content is much worse I think.
Jun 07 12:24:53 <SpeedEvil> Then a few days later, randomly delete content on a page.
Jun 07 12:25:08 <aloril> potential long term solution (for most wikis): introduce branching (git?): if somebody new edits, branch and somebody who has accepted edits must accept it (for example)
Jun 07 12:25:42 <SpeedEvil> That gets nasty.
Jun 07 12:25:53 <SpeedEvil> Multiple heads is insane.
Jun 07 12:26:15 <SpeedEvil> One displayed branch, which has been moderated at a point.
Jun 07 12:26:22 <DukeOfURL> how does voip-info.org handle it?
Jun 07 12:26:25 <CM> http://recaptcha.net/ ?
Jun 07 12:27:21 <aloril> SpeedEvil: there would still be 'main head' and you can see other branches too (basically for this problem would be latest edit by new user)
Jun 07 12:27:41 <PBeck> counter
Jun 07 12:27:41 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 23:46:08 (5.990±6.0 days) (1410;227)
Jun 07 12:27:41 <SpeedEvil> Then any one hitting 'edit' gets the current edit
Jun 07 12:27:49 <aloril> well.. I guess just make "edit pending moderation" if by new user
Jun 07 12:28:00 <Kensan> I bet somebody from the community knows a solution. Maybe this is a question for the mailing list.
Jun 07 12:28:08 <aloril> SpeedEvil: nope, they get branch unless they already have accepted edits
Jun 07 12:28:13 <SpeedEvil> If an authorised user saves the page at the unmoderated head, it moves the moderated head to that point
Jun 07 12:28:54 <aloril> ah, yeah, well this is long term solution, not a quick I think
Jun 07 12:29:21 <aloril> should address this credit too: if you just accept edit, then you get credited only for that, not for actual edit
Jun 07 12:29:53 <SpeedEvil> yeah
Jun 07 12:30:23 <SpeedEvil> You'd need some sort of highlighted diffs before the edit box.
Jun 07 12:31:16 <PBeck> http://openmoko.org/ <= btw why openmokowiki, openmokobugzilla, openmokoprojects, openmokolists and than planetopenmoko?
Jun 07 12:31:28 <PBeck> why change the prefix?
Jun 07 12:35:32 <aloril> PBeck: because I moved "at or before 2007-06-06" 5% part into current counter
Jun 07 12:37:34 <aloril> SpeedEvil: basic idea is that pages would have maintainers that would comb trough changes and merge them
Jun 07 12:38:31 <aloril> there could be even several versions of page, different maintainers having different viewpoint
Jun 07 12:38:55 <SpeedEvil> My basic view is that way lies madness.
Jun 07 12:39:01 <aloril> "distribution builder" then would select suitable maintainers and thus become 'meta' maintainer
Jun 07 12:39:39 <SpeedEvil> Multiple people editing on different versions, and having to merge back edits.
Jun 07 12:39:49 <aloril> SpeedEvil: works for Linux, Fedora, etc.. ;-)
Jun 07 12:40:13 <SpeedEvil> There are no people merging porn popups into the linux kernel.
Jun 07 12:40:32 <ewon> now that's my kinda kernel
Jun 07 12:40:59 <aloril> SpeedEvil: similarly it would be pointless to spam: it will never by accepted
Jun 07 12:41:35 <aloril> of course you can submit patch for porn popups for kernel, but that would never pass ;-)
Jun 07 12:41:51 <hrw> SpeedEvil: because today you add porn viewer to initrd to enjoy show during booting
Jun 07 12:41:53 <SpeedEvil> If it's got enough penguins, it just might!
Jun 07 12:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:CydC4h]] [[Bluetooth_Connection_Status]] [[Sketchbook]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[User_talk:Flerchjj]] [[User_talk:Speedevil]]
Jun 07 12:46:20 <aloril> in addition of main maintainer there could be spelling maintainers that whose edits would be accepted on wider range of pages  etc..
Jun 07 12:50:56 <PBeck> aloril: i mean planetopenmoko ;)
Jun 07 12:53:35 <hrw> SpeedEvil: get dual cpu machine and you will get two pengiuns
Jun 07 12:58:09 <zecke> Hey is anyone familiar with GdkWindow and GtkLayout?
Jun 07 13:42:53 <aloril> (script) planet: Stefan Schmidt: OpenMoko LUG BS talk appointment shift http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/weblog/archives/2007/05/#e2007-05-15T20_20_29.txt Stefan Schmidt: OpenMoko talk at next LUG Braunschweig meeting http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/weblog/archives/2007/05/#e2007-05-09T16_11_28.txt Stefan Schmidt: Fiddling with registers through JTAG made easier. http://www.datenfreihafen.org/~stefan/weblog/archives/2007/03/#e2007-03-23T02_58_
Jun 07 13:53:29 <kiney_> counter
Jun 07 13:53:30 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 23:03:13 (5.961±6.0 days) (1411;227)
Jun 07 13:57:05 <DukeOfURL> does gtk operate on teh frame buffer, or does it need X server?
Jun 07 13:57:12 <DukeOfURL> s/teh/the/
Jun 07 13:57:13 <apt> DukeOfURL meant: does gtk operate on the frame buffer, or does it need X server?
Jun 07 13:57:22 <balrog-kun> DukeOfURL: it can do both
Jun 07 13:57:35 <DukeOfURL> what about PyGtk?
Jun 07 13:57:54 <balrog-kun> but traditionally it uses the Xserver, and all distros run gtk on top of X + window manager
Jun 07 13:57:56 <DukeOfURL> same?
Jun 07 13:58:08 <balrog-kun> i don't know about PyGtk but i guess it's only a gtk client
Jun 07 13:58:24 * DukeOfURL reading Mikko's email
Jun 07 14:02:33 <DukeOfURL> so one could run full-screen finger apps. without X?  this would save CPU cycles.
Jun 07 14:02:44 <SpeedEvil> I dunno.
Jun 07 14:02:51 <SpeedEvil> X isn't heavyweight.
Jun 07 14:02:58 <DukeOfURL> or, once you start X, all apps must be X?
Jun 07 14:03:29 <zecke> DukeOfURL: well, you could switch virtual terminals or suspend X with other means but why would you want to do it?
Jun 07 14:03:41 <DukeOfURL> battery life
Jun 07 14:03:44 <pjz> fast user switching
Jun 07 14:03:48 <pjz> wait, I meant battery life :)
Jun 07 14:03:58 <SpeedEvil> I've used X on _much_ smaller hardware than the neo.
Jun 07 14:04:10 <balrog-kun> me too
Jun 07 14:04:11 <DukeOfURL> running top, X is consuming 20% CPU
Jun 07 14:04:25 <SpeedEvil> That's a seperate issue.
Jun 07 14:04:27 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: what's the minimum rom/ram footprint you can get it to?
Jun 07 14:04:39 <balrog-kun> DukeOfURL: well, you could run programs without X, btu that would take away flexibility
Jun 07 14:04:57 <balrog-kun> anyway, with pygtk the heaviest part is no doubt the python vm
Jun 07 14:05:08 <SpeedEvil> Stephmw: Coincidentally, I forgot to enable swap on my 128M laptop.
Jun 07 14:05:20 <SpeedEvil> It ran for most of a day before slowing down.
Jun 07 14:05:33 <SpeedEvil> With X + FF with 20ish tabs, and assorted Xterms
Jun 07 14:06:07 <Kensan> What about http://www.directfb.org/wiki/index.php/Projects:GTK_on_DirectFB ?
Jun 07 14:06:34 <SpeedEvil> Currently X on my laptop has a RSS of 19M
Jun 07 14:06:35 <Stephmw> SpeedEvil: I was thinking more of the 'much' smaller hw... had a look at the moko ROM and it seems that an FB-enabled XServer takes 5-7mb of ROM and the same of RAM
Jun 07 14:06:41 <balrog-kun> this is why i said gtk can do both X and no X
Jun 07 14:07:24 <SpeedEvil> Well - my Xorg binary is 1.8M
Jun 07 14:07:27 * SpeedEvil ponders
Jun 07 14:07:29 <balrog-kun> SpeedEvil: i have seen GPE on a 16 MB machine and i'm sure it could run on smaller ones too
Jun 07 14:07:42 <SpeedEvil> GPE?
Jun 07 14:07:49 <balrog-kun> the GNOME embedded
Jun 07 14:07:54 <SpeedEvil> ah
Jun 07 14:08:05 <balrog-kun> it uses X.org
Jun 07 14:09:12 <SpeedEvil> All the files I've used in the last 10 days in my X tree are 66M
Jun 07 14:09:28 <SpeedEvil> I have in the past gotten kernel + shell + X on one 1.44M floppy
Jun 07 14:09:37 <SpeedEvil> (this was some time ago)
Jun 07 14:10:03 <SpeedEvil> And it was formatted to somewhat higher than 1.4M
Jun 07 14:10:55 <Stephmw> I did have a google, but KDrive got absorbed into XOrg, and there seems to be little size related info on the web
Jun 07 14:10:59 <balrog-kun> there's an X server called nano-X that's < 1 MB
Jun 07 14:11:27 <balrog-kun> (statically linked with uclibc)
Jun 07 14:11:34 <Kensan> I think it's no use arguing about X vs Framebuffer etc. without having done thorough benchmarks.
Jun 07 14:11:54 <balrog-kun> prboom runs pretty well on nano-X
Jun 07 14:12:10 * SpeedEvil wants hardware!
Jun 07 14:12:27 <mjr> hardware would be nice, to eg. run benchmarks on ;)
Jun 07 14:12:34 * SpeedEvil gets his torch and pitchfork, and heads for FIC headquarters.
Jun 07 14:12:56 <mjr> Kensan, and yeah, true. I was just feeling like throwing an uneducated comment out there since mickey solicitated them
Jun 07 14:13:12 <mjr> well, perhaps not solicitated _uneducated_ ones spesifically
Jun 07 14:13:30 <bhima> Ooh. Two accelerometers.
Jun 07 14:13:41 <SpeedEvil> bhima: it's not that good.
Jun 07 14:13:57 <bhima> SpeedEvil: What do you mean?
Jun 07 14:13:59 <SpeedEvil> http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Accelerometer_Fundamentals
Jun 07 14:14:02 <SpeedEvil> Briefly.
Jun 07 14:14:03 <cheesy> SpeedEvil: how good is it?
Jun 07 14:14:20 <SpeedEvil> Currently available best-of-breed acceleromenters suck
Jun 07 14:14:44 <bhima> SpeedEvil: Depends on what you want to do with them, now, doesn't it?
Jun 07 14:14:45 <mjr> if it can control the lightsaber sound, it's good enough 
Jun 07 14:15:02 * bhima 's first app is simply activity detection.
Jun 07 14:15:06 <Kensan> Pitching ideas etc is great. Once the test and traces are done the best ideas can be implemented.
Jun 07 14:15:16 <SpeedEvil> The only thing two accelerometers buy you when standing with the phone in front of you held at chest height is some information about roll about the gravity axis.
Jun 07 14:15:22 <Kensan> s/Once/As soon as/
Jun 07 14:15:22 <cheesy> yes! lightsaber is a must
Jun 07 14:15:22 <apt> Kensan meant: Pitching ideas etc is great. As soon as the test and traces are done the best ideas can be implemented.
Jun 07 14:15:23 <SpeedEvil> And it's not good information.
Jun 07 14:15:34 <bhima> So it's two 3 axis ones?
Jun 07 14:15:47 <SpeedEvil> As the signal wanders around by 10 degrees/second or more.
Jun 07 14:15:48 <bhima> Or two 2 axis ones?
Jun 07 14:16:09 <SpeedEvil> I get the feeling from a comment harald made on the ML that it's not at all fixed.
Jun 07 14:16:29 <SpeedEvil> The model of accelerometer he mentioned for example would get almost no benefit from having 2 of them.
Jun 07 14:16:39 <SpeedEvil> It's got so low a resolution.
Jun 07 14:16:43 <cheesy> they should make it wiimote like :)
Jun 07 14:16:56 <SpeedEvil> The wiimote acceleromter is another option.
Jun 07 14:17:06 <Kensan> Wiimote has bluetooth ;)
Jun 07 14:17:08 <SpeedEvil> though the wiimote gains from the camera + sensor bar.
Jun 07 14:17:24 * bhima has a wiimote. No wii though.
Jun 07 14:17:42 <cheesy> i have two wiimotes but only one wii ;)
Jun 07 14:17:49 <SpeedEvil> How to tell a hardware geek.
Jun 07 14:17:53 <SpeedEvil> Wiimote and no Wii.
Jun 07 14:17:59 <mjr> =)
Jun 07 14:18:35 <bhima> I was lazy, and didn't feel like trying to hook up one of my PWM accelerometers into a nice case with an interface of some kind.
Jun 07 14:19:04 <bhima> MEMSIC accelerometers work in a really cute way.
Jun 07 14:19:25 <bhima> They have a small, sealed bubble of air, and a heater in the middle.
Jun 07 14:19:46 <bhima> They measure asymmetry in the thermal profile. 
Jun 07 14:19:58 <bhima> Hot air is less dense.
Jun 07 14:20:37 <bhima> It probably isn't a surprise to learn they don't do more than 2 axes in one chip.
Jun 07 14:20:42 <cheesy> but that reminds me of the main subject! i want this neo thing..NOW!
Jun 07 14:23:14 <sannes> there is no neo .. or was it spoon? :P
Jun 07 14:23:44 <cheesy> sannes: maybe both
Jun 07 14:24:56 <Kensan> It would actually be interesting to see if somebody with the technical expertise and the apropriate access to tools and hardware could build the Neo1973 with the publicly available info.
Jun 07 14:25:40 <Stephmw> Kensan: don't forget the cash
Jun 07 14:26:25 <Kensan> I would sponsor such a project since it would prove the openess of the project.
Jun 07 14:28:42 <hrw|gone> Kensan: without gps and gsm chips? doable with proper amount of money
Jun 07 14:29:33 <hrw|gone> bye
Jun 07 14:35:49 <CM> Nice work Finland: http://transport.wspgroup.fi/hklkartta/
Jun 07 14:36:17 <Tronic> Ah, they made that public :)
Jun 07 14:36:23 <Tronic> It's really sweet :)
Jun 07 14:36:25 <CM> I'd like something like that for my Neo. If I'm on a long trip or vacation or so, to have the gps update some homepage
Jun 07 14:36:34 <Tronic> You can get the data in CSV format.
Jun 07 14:36:52 <CM> Wish we had it here too, the buses here are never on time anyway and sometimes don't even show up at all
Jun 07 14:37:00 <Tronic> (if you look at the source code for the URL used by the AJAX thing that displays the map)
Jun 07 14:37:26 <SpeedEvil> It's a pretty trivial script though.
Jun 07 14:37:43 <SpeedEvil> Push out a packet to a server every few hours
Jun 07 14:37:48 <SpeedEvil> or less, depending on price
Jun 07 14:37:49 <CM> Sure, but as long as it works I don't care
Jun 07 14:41:09 <SpeedEvil> Sigh - the main page is such a mess.
Jun 07 14:41:25 <CM> SpeedEvil: I totally agree
Jun 07 14:41:49 <CM> I assume you talk about the wiki
Jun 07 14:41:51 <SpeedEvil> I keep trying to get up the energy to rewrite it from first principles.
Jun 07 14:41:55 <SpeedEvil> yes.
Jun 07 14:42:02 <CM> Shouldn't be so many links lined up right away
Jun 07 14:42:14 <CM> And I wonder why search never works in wikis..
Jun 07 14:42:19 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03laforge * r2189 10/trunk/src/target/kernel/patches/ (8 files): remove old unused patches
Jun 07 14:42:29 <SpeedEvil> CM: are you perhaps typing, then pressing enter?
Jun 07 14:42:32 <SpeedEvil> that hits 'go'
Jun 07 14:42:39 <SpeedEvil> you may want 'search'
Jun 07 14:42:48 <CM> Ah, possible
Jun 07 14:42:53 * CM checks
Jun 07 14:43:56 <CM> SpeedEvil: That's definitely better.. What's Go?
Jun 07 14:44:09 <SpeedEvil> It's a game, popular in japan.
Jun 07 14:44:12 <SpeedEvil> More seriously.
Jun 07 14:44:20 <SpeedEvil> It's 'open a page of this name'
Jun 07 14:44:51 <CM> Ok. Hmm.. I think Search should be the default
Jun 07 14:44:54 <Kensan> SpeedEvil, in my eyes the default should be search.
Jun 07 14:45:01 <SpeedEvil> I don't disagree.
Jun 07 14:45:19 <SpeedEvil> That part of the wiki is not editable.
Jun 07 14:45:25 <CM> It's like if google would have "I'm lucky" as default
Jun 07 14:45:58 <PBeck> re
Jun 07 14:49:11 <Vitaly> counter
Jun 07 14:49:11 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 22:35:22 (5.941±5.9 days) (1412;227)
Jun 07 14:55:25 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2190 10/trunk/oe/packages/libatomic-ops/ (. libatomic-ops_1.2.bb): oe: add libatomic-ops, a library for atomic integer operations
Jun 07 14:56:37 <Stephmw> Kensan: interesting board this one, http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2010384636.html
Jun 07 15:01:58 <Kensan> Stephmw: Miniaturization will go a long way...
Jun 07 15:02:21 <zecke> mickeyl: why do you need that? Isn't glib working?
Jun 07 15:06:49 <mickeyl> zecke: watch next commit...
Jun 07 15:07:58 * balrog-kun fears..
Jun 07 15:08:49 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2191 10/trunk/oe/packages/pulseaudio/ (5 files in 2 dirs): oe: add pulseaudio 0.9.6 (needs libatomic-ops)
Jun 07 15:08:52 <mickeyl> here we are
Jun 07 15:08:56 <mickeyl> bbiab
Jun 07 15:09:09 <zecke> mickeyl: mentor! tell me how to unfuck GdkWindow :)
Jun 07 15:12:29 <pH5> mickey|bbiab: going to build a surround sound system out of neos?
Jun 07 15:12:46 <SpeedEvil> No need to use more than one.
Jun 07 15:13:29 <balrog-kun> with two of them you could make a VR helmet
Jun 07 15:14:15 <balrog-kun> the screen size is perfect for a single display in a VR helmet with two displays
Jun 07 15:14:49 <Stephmw> shame about the look
Jun 07 15:15:03 <SpeedEvil> Meh.
Jun 07 15:15:30 <SpeedEvil> 'I am [[OpenMoko]] of Borg. Resistance is futile!'
Jun 07 15:16:11 * aloril2 remembers running X11 on machine with 12MB RAM and probably 486 (or 386), actually I think I ran it on 8MB machine too
Jun 07 15:16:41 <SpeedEvil> I think I've done 4 - it was slow.
Jun 07 15:16:56 <SpeedEvil> 486sx25 laptop with 4M ram.
Jun 07 15:17:21 <balrog-kun> i'm not sure if current X.org would still do that
Jun 07 15:17:26 <SpeedEvil> 16M ram, and it worked fine, with lots of netscape 3 windows open.
Jun 07 15:17:38 <balrog-kun> software was less bloated at that time
Jun 07 15:17:49 <SpeedEvil> Indeed.
Jun 07 15:18:51 <SpeedEvil> I was surprised to fairly easily rip out - maybe in 2002 - half the size of the binary of lynx almost trivially.
Jun 07 15:18:59 <SpeedEvil> Printing adds a lot, for example.
Jun 07 15:19:10 <balrog-kun> the whole X (XFree86) was a single binary at this time, quite ugly but good for overall size
Jun 07 15:19:25 <balrog-kun> modular is good but not exactly size efficient
Jun 07 15:21:15 <thresh> 32M of ram + xorg7.2 was pretty good.
Jun 07 15:21:26 <thresh> with some lightweight *box 
Jun 07 15:22:00 <aloril2> actually I think I ran text mode only on 8MB machine
Jun 07 15:23:47 <aloril2> didn't like to run both netscape and xemacs and xterm on 12MB machine ;-)
Jun 07 15:32:30 <thresh> anyone uses "building openmoko from scratch" ?
Jun 07 15:33:22 <thresh> oh yeah, sorry, it works D:
Jun 07 15:37:13 <thresh> i wonder why it installs m4 when i have it.
Jun 07 15:37:20 <thresh> as well as autoconf and stuff
Jun 07 15:41:27 <thresh> i suppose it wouldnt install all that =/
Jun 07 15:42:39 <thresh> ah. i c now.
Jun 07 15:53:42 <thresh> | /home/thresh/openmoko/tmp/work/armv4t-linux/binutils-cross-2.17.50.0.5-r1/binutils-2.17.50.0.5/bfd/elflink.c:9707:47: error: macro "memcpy" requires 3 arguments, but only 2 given
Jun 07 15:56:36 <baze> is it possible to run openmoko in virtualbox?
Jun 07 15:58:46 <mjr> what would be the point?
Jun 07 15:59:03 <mjr> add a virtualization layer that doesn't bring you a bit closer to the neo hw
Jun 07 15:59:16 <woglinde> jo mickeyl
Jun 07 15:59:38 <baze> i just want to have a look at it...
Jun 07 15:59:40 <mickeyl> re
Jun 07 15:59:53 <baze> i won't buy the neo anyway
Jun 07 15:59:53 <robtaylor> hey mickeyl :)
Jun 07 16:00:11 <lrak> baze: why?
Jun 07 16:00:16 <mickeyl> pH5: heh, not really a surround system, however after evaluating some systems, pulseaudio seems to be the best shot as low level API
Jun 07 16:00:19 <mickeyl> hey woglinde 
Jun 07 16:00:30 <baze> i'll wait for a later phone with usb 2.0, a camera and such stuff
Jun 07 16:00:48 <baze> the neo is nice, no question
Jun 07 16:00:52 <thresh> anyone has that problem with binutils ?
Jun 07 16:00:53 <baze> but i miss some things
Jun 07 16:01:51 <baze> powered usb 2.0, a camera, umts, multitouch. mainly those
Jun 07 16:02:37 <SpeedEvil> USB2 - no.
Jun 07 16:02:46 <baze> a neo with those and i'd buy it right away
Jun 07 16:02:50 <SpeedEvil> Because basically it's really expensive to add to a mobile device.
Jun 07 16:03:01 <SpeedEvil> UMTS - it's very limited market - future models.
Jun 07 16:03:02 <mickeyl> hi Robot101 
Jun 07 16:03:07 <mickeyl> ~lart tab completion
Jun 07 16:03:07 * apt pulls out his louisville slugger and uses tab completion's head to break the homerun record
Jun 07 16:03:08 <mickeyl> hi robtaylor 
Jun 07 16:03:18 <SpeedEvil> Multitouch is somewhat harder to make, and a bit more complex to drive.
Jun 07 16:03:23 <SpeedEvil> Also UMTS is expensive.
Jun 07 16:03:23 <robtaylor> mickeyl: heh, easy mistake to nme
Jun 07 16:03:25 <robtaylor> *make
Jun 07 16:03:26 <mickeyl> zecke: i'm afraid gdkwindow is so fscked i can't help in unfscking it ;)
Jun 07 16:03:45 <baze> yeah, umts is at the bottom of the wishlist ;)
Jun 07 16:03:47 <SpeedEvil> I would like a - even VGA - camera.
Jun 07 16:04:03 <SpeedEvil> CDMA is below it :)
Jun 07 16:04:04 <baze> it's definately not a must have and i'd buy the phone without it too of course
Jun 07 16:04:13 <baze> but a cam would be nice
Jun 07 16:05:11 <SpeedEvil> No cam is fine too.
Jun 07 16:05:44 <happycube> i think there'd be some interesting stuff you could do with the camera+gps+position sensors
Jun 07 16:06:04 <happycube> you could rig it to take new pictures every x feet for instance
Jun 07 16:06:27 <SpeedEvil> Position sensors buy you relatively little alas.
Jun 07 16:06:37 <SpeedEvil> If they are just accelerometers
Jun 07 16:06:43 <SpeedEvil> you have no information on roll
Jun 07 16:06:47 <happycube> point
Jun 07 16:06:50 <SpeedEvil> roll about the gravity axis
Jun 07 16:07:00 <happycube> would need a small compass instead/too
Jun 07 16:07:04 <SpeedEvil> or if there are two of them, very little.
Jun 07 16:07:10 <SpeedEvil> A 3 axis compass would be nice.
Jun 07 16:07:44 <DukeOfURL> gravity axis begins at the center of the earth?
Jun 07 16:07:53 <SpeedEvil> It's slightly more complex.
Jun 07 16:07:59 <SpeedEvil> Because you don't actually measure that.
Jun 07 16:08:03 <SpeedEvil> But accelleration + gravity
Jun 07 16:08:38 <SpeedEvil> But yes, one 3 axis accelerometer pins down the yaw and pitch of the phone about that axis.
Jun 07 16:08:58 <SpeedEvil> which wobbles a bit round pointing straight down, for a handheld phone mostly stationary
Jun 07 16:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Wish_List_-_Hardware]]
Jun 07 16:52:57 <SpeedEvil> UK - vodaphone web news http://business.guardian.co.uk/story/0,,2096912,00.html
Jun 07 17:00:20 <DukeOfURL> is the accelerometer measuring the accelerometer due to gravity???
Jun 07 17:00:46 <DukeOfURL> is the accelerometer measuring the acceleration due to gravity???
Jun 07 17:01:18 <mjr> that too
Jun 07 17:01:42 <holtmann> Can we make use OpenMoko OE setup automatically use the bluez-libs and bluez-utils from CVS?
Jun 07 17:02:12 <mickeyl> yes, i can do that when i'm in .tw.
Jun 07 17:02:33 <mickeyl> saturday, sunday,
Jun 07 17:02:56 <mickeyl> if noone beats me to it
Jun 07 17:03:01 <holtmann> I just try to workaround it, but that is basically ugly.
Jun 07 17:03:35 <holtmann> The recipe in OE should be up-to-date for the new services infrastructure.
Jun 07 17:04:59 <mickeyl> agreed
Jun 07 17:05:18 <holtmann> Or is there an easy way for me to modify the overlay.
Jun 07 17:05:31 <thresh> i've an error building openembedded, bails out on binutils, saying that memcpy macro is used with two parameters instead of 3
Jun 07 17:06:22 <mickeyl> holtmann: well, you could just add a bluez-libs_svn.bb
Jun 07 17:06:28 <mickeyl> or cvs
Jun 07 17:06:44 <mickeyl> and override PV to be larger than what's in our snapshot
Jun 07 17:07:03 <mickeyl> we usually use PV = 0.3.2+svn${SRCDATE}"
Jun 07 17:07:07 <mickeyl> (or so)
Jun 07 17:07:25 <holtmann> I am not that good with OE right now. Where do I put that file.
Jun 07 17:08:10 <mickeyl> you can mkdir bluez-utils in our overlay
Jun 07 17:08:16 <mickeyl> i.e. oe/packages/bluez-utils
Jun 07 17:08:23 <mickeyl> copy the stuff you need from OE
Jun 07 17:08:33 <mickeyl> and then add your new bb file, basically only changing the SRC_URI and PV
Jun 07 17:08:43 <mickeyl> (and add new dependencies as you might need)
Jun 07 17:09:01 <mickeyl> like i said, i can do it in a couple of days
Jun 07 17:09:08 <mickeyl> if you can wait so long :)
Jun 07 17:09:52 <holtmann> I wanna have something running before I board the plane tomorrow. And until now I was compiling directly on the phone.
Jun 07 17:10:22 <mickeyl> ah. well today will be tough and tomorrow i will board the plane
Jun 07 17:10:44 <mickeyl> sigh let me take a look
Jun 07 17:10:44 <holtmann> Don't worry. If I can work out that thing with the overlay, I am good to go.
Jun 07 17:11:06 <holtmann> I might need extra work anyway. The new build options etc.
Jun 07 17:11:23 <mickeyl> hmm yeah. i'm afraid it needs more than just 10 minutes
Jun 07 17:11:35 <holtmann> I think so.
Jun 07 17:12:27 <mickeyl> well, if you run into problems just ping again. I'll check IRC at least once before going to sleep today.
Jun 07 17:15:30 <holtmann> Seems to work. Thanks.
Jun 07 17:16:03 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2192 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/ (4 files in 3 dirs): oe: add openmoko-sound-system_0.1.0.bb plus session file
Jun 07 17:16:23 <CIA-24> openmoko: 03mickey * r2193 10/trunk/oe/packages/openmoko-base/openmoko-session/ (. session): oe: move openmoko-session file to own directory
Jun 07 17:27:14 <[psy]> anyone overhere going to ccc camp 2007?
Jun 07 17:28:38 <alphaone> yup
Jun 07 17:29:01 <Rince> not sure yet
Jun 07 17:29:10 <alphaone> GSM Village :-)
Jun 07 17:29:20 <[psy]> cool :D
Jun 07 17:29:33 <[psy]> while ther ebe openmoko stuff i can see? :)
Jun 07 17:30:40 <alphaone> I'm pretty sure :-)
Jun 07 17:31:04 <alphaone> I'll bring all the stuff I have and I know Shoragan and stefan_schmidt will, too
Jun 07 17:31:42 * LetoTo sniffs.
Jun 07 17:31:47 * LetoTo wants to go too :(
Jun 07 17:33:05 <[psy]> aww :)
Jun 07 17:33:12 <[psy]> cool alphaone 
Jun 07 17:33:17 <[psy]> #camp is the channel for it
Jun 07 17:33:35 <[psy]> i'm definatly will visit gsmvillage then :D
Jun 07 17:33:46 <alphaone> [psy]: I know :-)
Jun 07 17:33:51 <[psy]> where are you from alphaone ?
Jun 07 17:34:24 <alphaone> [psy]: Braunschweig, Germany
Jun 07 17:34:29 <alphaone> So not that far
Jun 07 17:34:34 <[psy]> ah i see
Jun 07 17:34:39 <[psy]> i'm from the netherlands
Jun 07 17:34:41 <[psy]> 8 hour drive
Jun 07 17:34:42 <[psy]> :)
Jun 07 17:35:22 <alphaone> WTH was quite a ride for us. :-)
Jun 07 17:35:32 <[psy]> i bet it was
Jun 07 17:35:45 <[psy]> now we will go to your place to make it up to you ;)
Jun 07 17:35:59 <alphaone> ;-)
Jun 07 17:36:10 <alphaone> The location looks really cool
Jun 07 17:36:15 <[psy]> and drink all your bit
Jun 07 17:46:52 <aloril> (script) openmoko-community: Werner Almesberger <werner at openmoko.org> Re: Are there any applications?
Jun 07 17:48:34 <zecke> mickey|dinner: mentor?
Jun 07 17:50:42 <alphaone> zecke: You wouldn't want to disturb your mentor while he is eating, would you? :-)
Jun 07 17:52:20 <zecke> alphaone: hmm
Jun 07 17:54:35 <deepank> Hi, I would like to know how to develop applications for openmoko using libmokoui
Jun 07 18:01:40 <stefan_schmidt> deepank: Sounds good. What kind of application?
Jun 07 18:02:40 <stefan_schmidt> deepank: At the moment the lib is still work in progress and no doc exists so you have to read the code and other apps for the usage it seems.
Jun 07 18:03:36 <Vegar> will there be an "official" scripting language for the platform?
Jun 07 18:03:45 <Vegar> ie. one that's installed by default
Jun 07 18:05:37 <don-o> Vegar: there is a wiki page on that, i forget the name
Jun 07 18:05:40 <stefan_schmidt> Vegar: Hard to decide. All the scripting languages are quite big. But I see no problem to load them on the phone will installing an app. It's just a normal linux distro in the end.
Jun 07 18:05:59 <Vegar> I see
Jun 07 18:06:04 <don-o> Vegar: basically it says javascript and J2ME will definitely be there. perl/python/ruby is a big maybe.
Jun 07 18:06:05 <stefan_schmidt> No need to think about this stuff like for coding on other phones. :)
Jun 07 18:06:21 <stefan_schmidt> don-o: Who says Java will be there by default?
Jun 07 18:06:37 <don-o> stefan_schmidt: the wiki page i read :)
Jun 07 18:07:00 <stefan_schmidt> don-o: OpenMoko never stated that it will be there by default.
Jun 07 18:07:10 <Vegar> stefan_schmidt: with a default scripting language, you would rarely need to install other languages
Jun 07 18:07:13 <don-o> stefan_schmidt: my bad. its a wishlist wiki page. http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/Wishlist:BuiltInScriptingLanguage
Jun 07 18:07:27 <Vegar> and storage space on embedded devices is sort of limited
Jun 07 18:07:32 <stefan_schmidt> don-o: We don't support Java active. Fine when somebody is working on it though
Jun 07 18:07:37 <mwester> /bin/bash
Jun 07 18:08:04 <stefan_schmidt> Vegar: There is just no need to force developer to a special language
Jun 07 18:08:13 <don-o> stefan_schmidt: seems like javascript is the mostly likely language to count on. assuming the mozilla javascript interpreter will be available as a seperate binary.
Jun 07 18:08:19 <stefan_schmidt> Vegar: We use C/GTK++, but all other are fine too
Jun 07 18:08:42 <deepank> Ok but can I get some idea as to how the library is organised
Jun 07 18:08:58 <stefan_schmidt> don-o: hmm, zecke works on webkit, not mozilla for the html stuff
Jun 07 18:09:10 <don-o> stefan_schmidt: interesting.
Jun 07 18:09:11 <Vegar> I get your point
Jun 07 18:10:06 <Robot101> mickey|dinner: hi, you hi'd? :)
Jun 07 18:10:20 <deepank> I am planning to develop a battleship...
Jun 07 18:10:37 <deepank> game application
Jun 07 18:10:38 <Vegar> deepank: a game?
Jun 07 18:10:44 <deepank> yes
Jun 07 18:11:05 <stefan_schmidt> deepank: You know GDK/GTK?
Jun 07 18:11:13 <don-o> id like to see (or write) a bluetooth multiplayer game
Jun 07 18:11:26 <thresh> *sigh*
Jun 07 18:11:37 <thresh> | cc1: warnings being treated as errors
Jun 07 18:11:43 <thresh> 86: warning: ignoring return value of 'fscanf', declared with attribute warn_unused_result
Jun 07 18:11:47 <thresh> and it errors out
Jun 07 18:12:02 <balrog-kun> thresh: what package is it in?
Jun 07 18:12:05 <deepank> Yes it will be a bluetooth multiplayer game ... I dont know GTK however
Jun 07 18:12:13 <don-o> deepank: nice.
Jun 07 18:12:16 <thresh> balrog-kun: binutils
Jun 07 18:12:23 <thresh> binutils-cross-2.17.50.0.5-r1/binutils-2.17.50.0.
Jun 07 18:12:23 <balrog-kun> hmm
Jun 07 18:13:05 <stefan_schmidt> deepank: So best would be to read an introduction into GDK/GTK and look at some already written apps using mokoui from svn
Jun 07 18:13:32 <thresh> i wonder why there's a Werror
Jun 07 18:13:53 <deepank> ok ... I am currently doing that
Jun 07 18:14:19 <deepank> I will need all your help however :)
Jun 07 18:16:14 <stefan_schmidt> deepank: Just ask here or on openmoko-application once you have a real question. I fear I don't have and answer, but others can jump in.
Jun 07 18:17:08 <deepank> stefan_schmidt:thanks
Jun 07 18:17:32 <deepank> stefan_schmidt: yes, it will take me some time to start coding on it
Jun 07 18:17:34 <stefan_schmidt> deepank: np, thanks for starting development for OpenMoko :)
Jun 07 18:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User:Idarwin]] [[Buying_Interest_List]] [[Talk:Contacts]] [[Contacts]] [[Terminal]] [[Clock]]
Jun 07 19:05:25 <parag0n> ah
Jun 07 19:14:09 <MacNorthXP> cingular/att is outrageously expensive
Jun 07 19:20:20 <SpeedEvil> Hmm. http://www.ebuyer.com/UK/product/122973/rb/0 bluetooth audio sender. Might be interesting if you could fake either end in the neo.
Jun 07 19:22:57 <Vegar> SpeedEvil: sending audio to devices?
Jun 07 19:23:52 <SpeedEvil> Yeah.
Jun 07 19:23:56 <SpeedEvil> Or recieving from.
Jun 07 19:24:06 <SpeedEvil> If it's truly bluetooth.
Jun 07 19:24:14 <SpeedEvil> Fake the other half.
Jun 07 19:28:45 <koen> holtmann: oops, sorry wrong number
Jun 07 19:45:48 <x_Fight> counter
Jun 07 19:45:48 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 20:07:04 (5.838±5.8 days) (1413;228)
Jun 07 20:18:33 <Bish> i need phukin openmoko, noow ! :'(
Jun 07 20:35:11 <mjr> hmh, sent what ended up amounting to a "me, too" mail on the list
Jun 07 20:35:25 <mjr> I plead tiredness
Jun 07 20:39:14 <zecke> alphaone: so mickey differentiates from eating and dinner
Jun 07 20:41:05 <balrog-kun> you can go for a dinner and just stare at it for a while
Jun 07 20:41:51 <guaqua> i read, stare at tit
Jun 07 20:42:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[MokoMakefile]] [[User_talk:CaqZb1]] [[Terminal]] [[User_talk:Vv9Zqx]] [[Clock]]
Jun 07 21:04:24 <MacNorth> what curious vandalism -- just partial deletions, no spam links :-\
Jun 07 21:14:35 <xkr47> counter
Jun 07 21:14:36 <aloril> http://londerings.novalis.org/wlog/index.php?title=Neo1973_counter (probability guess: 45%) P1: 5 days 19:22:40 (5.807±5.8 days) (1414;228)
Jun 07 21:14:52 * xkr47 rolls thumbs
Jun 07 21:23:57 <Moo^^> xkr47: cows' nerves are useful in this situation :)
Jun 07 21:27:42 <pavelm> Is hrw still around?
Jun 07 21:28:04 <pavelm> (I tried to say hello, but my machine apparently disagreed with that)
Jun 07 21:29:19 * balrog-kun finalises the complex operation of enlarging the kernel partition and shrinking the other partitions on his Neo
Jun 07 21:29:48 <balrog-kun> no more modules!
Jun 07 21:29:52 <univac> balrog-kun: do you have neo in home? ;]
Jun 07 21:29:59 <balrog-kun> yup
Jun 07 21:30:13 <univac> mm :>
Jun 07 21:30:40 <psymin> I'm sure this is a dumb question, but how much is the Neo1973 estimated to cost?
Jun 07 21:30:40 <aloril> psymin: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 07 21:31:17 * psymin grins.
Jun 07 21:32:03 <guaqua> see topic, psymin :)
Jun 07 21:52:55 <pavelm> balrog: Congrats to tricky operation. I wish openmoko project used the same approach ;-)
Jun 07 22:06:40 <balrog-kun> pavelm: :)
Jun 07 22:06:58 <balrog-kun> without debugging info it might even fit into the original 2 MB space
Jun 07 22:07:27 <pavelm> balrog: Hmm, you probably will not be using debugging info, anyway, so..
Jun 07 22:07:43 <balrog-kun> pavelm: i already did use it
Jun 07 22:09:03 <pavelm> balrog: Aha, ok :-)
Jun 07 22:16:21 <pavelm> Help me: what is reasonable binary distro to install on openmoko?
Jun 07 22:16:41 <pavelm> I'd like minimal .tar.gz of debian, but they only have CD images.
Jun 07 22:16:55 <pavelm> Angstrom is not an option, since it will not be compatible with gllin AFAICT.
Jun 07 22:17:14 <pavelm> I'd like python/gtk to work, so I do not have to deal with crosscompiling X apps.
Jun 07 22:17:20 <SpeedEvil> What's wrong with a CD image - and 1G card?
Jun 07 22:17:31 <zecke> pavelm: what is currently broken with pygtk
Jun 07 22:17:43 <zecke> pavelm: it must be important when you mention it twice a day :)
Jun 07 22:18:02 <pavelm> zecke: Where do I find it?
Jun 07 22:18:07 <SpeedEvil> She's now out.
Jun 07 22:18:09 <SpeedEvil> oops
Jun 07 22:18:26 <pavelm> zecke: I do not know where to get pygtk for openmoko.
Jun 07 22:18:49 <pavelm> zecke: ipkg update does not work.
Jun 07 22:18:58 <balrog-kun> get the sources
Jun 07 22:19:02 <zecke> pavelm: I know ph5 fixed some pygtk issues in the OE tree. Do you use the 'official' images? I could see how far my pygtk builds goes
Jun 07 22:20:13 <pavelm> zecke: I have http://buildhost.openmoko.org/tmp/deploy/images/openmoko-devel-image-fic-gta01-20070604001826.rootfs.jffs2 here; can go to 06-jun image.
Jun 07 22:21:28 <pavelm> zecke: angstrom .ipkg system worked, but pygtk apps complained about some python problems. 
Jun 07 22:21:38 <pavelm> zecke: (Could not find ... something).
Jun 07 22:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Clock]]
Jun 07 23:16:00 <Psi_> they should definitely use this for a future openmoko device http://www.linuxdevices.com/news/NS2010384636.html
Jun 07 23:22:10 <cheesy> Psi_: this thing looks neat :)
Jun 07 23:22:22 <Psi_> yeah
Jun 07 23:23:25 <Psi_> ya would need another pcb for the extra stuff in the phone like gsm,gps, etc. but it would still nice and small and have lots of raw power for a phone :)
Jun 07 23:23:36 <Psi_> -small
Jun 07 23:29:06 <webjames> night all, looking good! :)
Jun 08 00:33:33 <darmou> I'm glad the phone will have wifi, it will make it much easier to develop software on it.
Jun 08 00:41:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[User_talk:Speedevil]] [[Wishlist:LiveUSB_distro]] [[Bluetooth_Support]]
Jun 08 00:44:56 <don-o> Psi_: amazing mobo.
Jun 08 00:50:22 <Psi_> yeah
Jun 08 01:13:39 <agui> Hi, can someone tell me how to use microSD card  on neo1973(gta01b_v4)
Jun 08 01:23:11 <balrog-kun> agui: there's a slot under the battery and under the SIM
Jun 08 01:36:40 <agui> <balrog-kun
Jun 08 01:39:24 <agui> balrog-kun: yes, I have put the microsd card in that place. I creat a block device file, using the major device number 254, but it can't work
Jun 08 02:13:54 <balrog-kun> agui: udev should create all the nodes for you when the card is detected and nodes for every partition when it reads the partition table
Jun 08 02:14:06 <balrog-kun> agui: provided you have s3c_mci compiled in
Jun 08 02:27:50 <LWT001> I want to buy a Neo1973 phone or debug board for system testing,  Where to buy at mainland china? 
Jun 08 02:28:08 <Psi_> you wait till its out, then order online
Jun 08 02:31:02 <aloril> btw.. has anybody with Neo1973 simple tried to turn chrome off to see what effect that has in speed?
Jun 08 02:31:21 <aloril> s:simple:simply:
Jun 08 02:32:02 <_ASK_> question: general public will be offered GTA-01 or GTA-02?
Jun 08 02:32:06 <LWT001> Psi_:    If i want to buy it  for debugging  now, How to do this ?
Jun 08 02:32:19 <Psi_> its not available yet
Jun 08 02:32:28 <_ASK_> i mean, without waiting until september
Jun 08 02:32:40 <balrog-kun> _ASK_: GTA-01
Jun 08 02:33:45 <balrog-kun> aloril: in recent builds the graphics is really fast and usable, so probably not much difference
Jun 08 02:33:48 <balrog-kun> at least for me
Jun 08 02:33:50 <_ASK_> so they are going to use the same physical design for the "second generation"? Touchscreen, two buttons and no stylus?
Jun 08 02:33:54 <aloril> GTA01 for anybody with money soon, but meant only for developers
Jun 08 02:34:07 <Psi_> LWT001, the only people who have phones already are Linux developers specially chosen by FIC
Jun 08 02:34:10 <aloril> GTA02 maybe in september with -"-
Jun 08 02:34:39 <LWT001> Psi_:   I know that FIC has produced  a couple of GTA01Bv4 at mainland china, 
Jun 08 02:34:41 <aloril> GTA02? with updated software in maybe 6 months for mass market (I guess topic should be changed here...)
Jun 08 02:35:17 <Psi_> LWT001, yes, the have produced them, and the are going on sale very shortly, but they are not available yet
Jun 08 02:35:32 <aloril> balrog-kun: ah, OK, what about when you restart application, any difference?
Jun 08 02:35:46 <balrog-kun> the GTA02 hardware probably also won't be reade earlier than 6 months after GTA01 starts selling, knowing how the project works...
Jun 08 02:35:49 <_ASK_> i think i'm going to keep my treo for a while then.
Jun 08 02:36:11 <aloril> balrog-kun: hehe
Jun 08 02:36:29 <balrog-kun> aloril: between chrome and no chrome? i haven't tried no chrome, maybe will try during the weekend
Jun 08 02:36:51 <LWT001> Psi_:thanks
Jun 08 02:36:58 <balrog-kun> but the only thing that takes long sometimes is the loading of some programs (before the appear on the screen)
Jun 08 02:37:06 <balrog-kun> after that they are rather smooth
Jun 08 02:37:08 <aloril> (that topic was not really realistic anymore)
Jun 08 02:37:45 <balrog-kun> the "perhaps any day now" also doesn't sound realistic :)
Jun 08 02:38:03 <LWT001> s
Jun 08 02:38:14 <aloril> balrog-kun: chrome too, but I meant caching (ie.. effect jffs2 speed)
Jun 08 02:38:42 <balrog-kun> aloril: lemme check, one moment
Jun 08 02:39:48 <_ASK_> i wonder if they even considered changing the ergonomics of the phone
Jun 08 02:40:55 <balrog-kun> aloril: well, the first time i tapped on TaskManager now it took some 4s to load and about 2s the successive runs - can't test anything else because the desktop and the top bar had crashed during suspending :P
Jun 08 02:41:32 <aloril> considering that if you took GUI calendar and similar 'light' program designed for 386 and ran it on pentium (roughly == Neo1973) it should run pretty fast
Jun 08 02:42:00 <aloril> balrog-kun: thanks,  I think there is space for optimization, dunno if its easy or hard
Jun 08 02:42:28 <balrog-kun> yeah, there definitely is space for optimisation :)
Jun 08 02:42:42 <aloril> for example current dialing application should be possible to start in <0.1s (its not that complex ;-)
Jun 08 02:42:53 <aloril> (script) wiki RecentChanges: [[Great_Wall]] [[Liver_transplant]] [[Talk:Openstreetmap]]
Jun 08 02:43:17 <balrog-kun> ugh spammers again?
Jun 08 02:43:57 <bmidgley> has anyone figured out how to use the web browser on neo?
Jun 08 02:44:24 <scuffe> hi everyone, i'm building the dev enviroment right now and was wondering how long it took anyone to build the image?
Jun 08 02:44:24 <aloril> scuffe: See http://wiki.openmoko.org/wiki/FAQ (Hopefully this link answers your question. This autotrigger for new nick and question during first 15 minutes done only once.)
Jun 08 02:44:53 <aloril> 5-10 hours
Jun 08 02:45:12 <aloril> qemu only is fast though
Jun 08 02:48:08 <scuffe> so 5-10 for the image and 5-10 for qemu?
Jun 08 02:48:51 <aloril> umm.. you can build qemu + download prebuild image <1h, maybe minutes
Jun 08 02:49:06 <aloril> especially if you do it manually and thus skip monotone part
Jun 08 02:50:00 <aloril> even with mokomakefile you can skip most of it, just don't call  make openmoko-devel-image
Jun 08 02:50:15 <scuffe> that's where i'm at now
Jun 08 02:50:25 <aloril> (but then you don't have development environment)
Jun 08 02:50:49 <scuffe> so theres no point to do it the other way
Jun 08 02:51:22 <aloril> right, if you want development environment, then its several hours
Jun 08 02:51:34 <scuffe> cool thanks for the info
Jun 08 02:51:34 <aloril> if you want to just get look, some minutes
Jun 08 02:52:19 <scuffe> i looked at it in windows with the precompiled binaray and it looks way cool
Jun 08 02:52:43 <scuffe> i really want to take a look under the hood now
Jun 08 02:56:15 <aloril> anybody ran bare X11 application? I don't think its X11 that is problem here
Jun 08 02:57:49 <bmidgley> ok so the web "browser" is a placeholder for the real thing to come :(
**** ENDING LOGGING AT Fri Jun 08 02:59:56 2007